Video: If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you, says president of NY Board of Rabbis

Israel/Palestine
on 279 Comments

There was a pro-Israel rally of 10,000 people in New York yesterday, a half block from the United Nations, and Rabbi David-Seth Kirshner, the president of the NY Board of Rabbis, suggested that Palestinians who voted for Hamas are combatants who deserve to be targeted by Israel. He said:

When you are part of an election process that asks for a terrorist organization which proclaims in word and in deed that their primary objective is to destroy their neighboring country and not to build schools or commerce or jobs, you are complicit and you are not a civilian casualty.

The crowd cheered. Kirshner went on to say that the Israeli army is “the most moral army in the history of civilization.” He ended his remarks with the word, Amen.

The rabbi did not make it clear how he would sort out Palestinians who voted for Hamas. In the last election in Palestine, in 2006, Hamas — the “terrorist organization” to which Kirshner was obviously referring– got 440,000 votes, 44 percent of the electorate, according to Wikipedia. Fatah won 410,000, the PFLP 42,000.

Senator Chuck Schumer and many Democratic congresspeople also spoke at the rally, on 47th Street. None were on the stage when Kirshner offered his spiritual counsel near the end of the gathering.

Kirshner, from the Temple Emanu-El site

Kirshner, from the Temple Emanu-El site

Below is the context for Kirshner’s remarks, beginning at about 3:00 in the video above. Kirshner (who was introduced as president but identified with three different titles, 1, 2, 3. of the New York Board of Rabbis) began by saying that the United Nations was condemning the killing of civilians in Gaza.

Ladies and gentlemen let me make something very, very, very clear to all of you gathered. If you are wearing jeans and a t-shirt and you are carrying an AK-47, you are not a civilian, you are a combatant.

When you welcome Hamas into your living room and allow them to launch rockets next to your sofa, you are not a civilian you are a combatant.

When you are part of an election process that asks for a terrorist organization which proclaims in word and in deed that their primary objective is to destroy their neighboring country and not to build schools or commerce or jobs, you are complicit and you are not a civilian casualty.

And lastly when you fail to heed the pamphlets, the phone calls, the text messages and the warning shots telling you to evacuate a building, and instead use yourself as a shield and use innocent children as a shield, you are not collateral damage. When you ignore those very moral warnings and align yourself with Hamas, you are a combatant.

As Adam notes, the statement could apply to anyone who voted in that election in 2006; I’m interpreting it to apply to Hamas supporters.

Elsewhere in the speech, the rabbi identified himself wholly with the Israeli government, saying that “we gave them freedom nine years ago,” referring to the end of the settlement program in Gaza.

Kirshner hosted Gov. Chris Christie at Temple Emanu-El, his conservative synagogue in New Jersey, last year. He spoke at the Israel lobby group AIPAC in 2009.

279 Responses

  1. OlegR
    July 29, 2014, 9:35 am

    So what you are saying is that citizens do not bear responsibility for the actions of their elected governments ?

    • Marnie
      July 29, 2014, 10:00 am

      Would this rabbid use the same logic for the chinese under Mao, the cambodians under Pol Pot, the russians under stalin or putin?

      • Dan Crowther
        July 29, 2014, 12:05 pm

        Hey Marnie – kiss my ass with the “Putin as Stalin” BS. That’s utter BS – stop with this nonsense. If Putin can be tossed in with those others, where to put Barry O?

        Enough of the Putin bashing.

      • CloakAndDagger
        July 29, 2014, 1:25 pm

        @ Dan Crowther

        Enough of the Putin bashing.

        I am with you on that one, Dan.

      • Marnie
        July 29, 2014, 1:51 pm

        Dan and CloakAndDagger – come up with your own list. I definitely won’t tell either one of you to kiss my ass; that was unnecessary.

      • jimby
        July 29, 2014, 3:40 pm

        Stop with the Putin bashing. He has been maligned by the neo-cons and smeared in the media just like the Palestinians. The Zionists hate him because he helped Obomber out of bombing Syria and Iran. The Zios wanted that badly. So now Victoria Nuland, who is married to Robert Kagan of the Project for the New American Century, engineered the coup in the Ukraine from the State Dept. PNAC are the same crazies who got us into Iraq. Putin is being libeled. Also some rancor because Russia is giving asylum to Snowden.

      • Keith
        July 29, 2014, 7:58 pm

        DAN CROWTHER- “Enough of the Putin bashing.”

        Hear, hear! Whatever his faults, compared to warmonger Obama, Putin is the voice of restraint and moderation. Interesting, isn’t it, how effective the American propaganda system is in demonizing a targeted leader setting the stage for an imperial intervention.

      • MRW
        July 29, 2014, 11:20 pm

        I agree too, Dan Crowther. “Kiss my ass with the ‘Putin as Stalin’ BS.” We should be so lucky to have a prez as smart as Putin. He’s got a PhD, and he can run rings around the sorry group in DC for genuine strategy. He’s 10 moves ahead of Obama, who has zero clue that he’s making the same mistake that Britain made before it lost reserve currency status.

        [I am now deeply embarrassed that I campaigned for Obama 22 hours a day for 1.5 years. His judgment is absolutely sub-standard.]

      • quercus
        July 29, 2014, 4:24 pm

        @Marnie. I wouldn’t have said “kiss my ass”, but I would kindly request that you pull your head out of your nether regions when you equate Stalin with Putin. You’ve watched far too much American television.

        I echo Dan Crowther and Cloak and Dagger. ENOUGH WITH THE PUTIN BASHING.

    • just
      July 29, 2014, 10:01 am

      Are you saying that INNOCENT Palestinians deserve to be massacred at the behest of the elected ‘leaders’ of Israel?

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 10:15 am

        He is also saying that Yossi Israeli is a legitimate target.

      • Citizen
        July 29, 2014, 10:31 am

        @ seafoid
        And simultaneously saying every American voter and taxpayer has drawn a legitimate target on his own back. Wonderful.

      • ritzl
        July 29, 2014, 10:40 am

        Not just Yossi Israel, seafoid, but the rabbi himself and anyone else who calls for the wholesale killing of innocents (Do people vote for rabbis?).

        Surely this murderous language gives all Jews a debilitating case of the willies.

        Sorry for being repetitive, but there’s something very wrong and unstable when a small minority calls for killing another group end masse. Very wrong. I don’t know how that gets ignored in the Jewish community (nod to Mooser: …in order to become good Zionists.).

        It seems like they think they’re establishing some sort of guidelines to profess and claim a moral authority, but they’re actually only dictating the terms and acceptibility of their own persecution.

        I don’t know. I can’t figure it out.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 10:52 am

        It’s the notion of Jewish otherness with unlimited military power. Very like Syria and the Alawis.
        And Gaza is a threat to the status quo. So it must be destroyed, like Amalek.

        link to nybooks.com

        “Mainstream Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, regarded them as ghulta, “exaggerators.” Like other sectarian groups they protected their tradition by a strategy known as taqiyya—the right to hide one’s true beliefs from outsiders in order to avoid persecution. Taqiyya makes a perfect qualification for membership in the mukhabarat—the ubiquitous intelligence/security apparatus that has dominated Syria’s government for more than four decades
        Moosa suggests that like other schismatic groups residing in Syria, such as the Druzes and Ismailis, the Nusayris do not take their beliefs literally, but understand them as allegorical ways of reaching out to the divine. While this may be true of the educated naqibs, or spiritual elders, such belief systems may have different ramifications for semiliterate peasants, reinforcing a contempt or disdain for outsiders who do not share these beliefs. Like the Druzes and some Ismailis, Nusayris believe in metempsychosis or transmigration. The souls of the wicked pass into unclean animals such as dogs and pigs, while the souls of the righteous enter human bodies more perfect than their present ones. The howls of jackals that can be heard at night are the souls of Sunni Muslims calling their misguided co-religionists to prayer.It does not take much imagination to see how such beliefs, programmed into the community’s values for more than a millennium, and reinforced by customs such as endogamous marriage—according to which the children of unions between Nusayris and non-Nusayris cannot be initiated into the sect—create very strong notions of apartness and disdain for the “Other.””

      • Marnie
        July 29, 2014, 11:30 am

        History repeating itself and this grinning grim reaper is inciting murder. And getting cheered for it.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 11:38 am

        ” (Do people vote for rabbis?).”

        As a Zionist here once told us, when we were discussing what Rabbi’s might be able to do to help moderate Israel’s intransigence; ‘A Rabbi is nothing but a hired hand, and if he doesn’t say what the Temple board wants to hear, he gets fired.

        I really wish somebody would write an article showing how Judaism is organized as a religion. It would be very short.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 12:42 pm

        “It seems like they think they’re establishing some sort of guidelines to profess and claim a moral authority, but they’re actually only dictating the terms and acceptibility of their own persecution. “

        I wish I had a nice Cessna equipped for sky-writing, when I read that.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 1:18 pm

        “I don’t know how that gets ignored in the Jewish community”

        There is absolutely no mechanism, no process, within the Jewish religion, or the “Jewish community” (a very slippery and fungible thing) to handle anything like this. Especially against opposition.
        What are we going to do, sponsor a resolution at the next general convocation?

      • Miriam
        July 29, 2014, 4:29 pm

        EXCEPTIONALLY great piece on Counterpunch by Hammad Said, that takes a hard look at Hannah Arendt’s “BANALITY of EVIL” (Eichmann trial 1961 Jerusalem) & carefully compares it to the evil going on today….the parallels are blatant and every American reader should check it out: link to counterpunch.org Truly a MUST read….!

      • gmeades
        July 30, 2014, 12:43 pm

        Innocent Palestinians deserve to leave the areas they’re being warned are about to be targeted. Innocent Palestinians deserve to take their children out of dangers way after they’ve been warned, rather than going towards the areas that they’ve been told are about to be bombed or picking up leaflets and declaring “this is a joke” as has been documented.

        If they’re not complicit, they have the choice to leave the areas. If they are complicit, then don’t blame Israel when these people do what Hamass tells them to do and run towards the areas where Israelis have warned bombings are about to happen.

        Complicity makes them combatants. Just because they do not carry a rifle or wear a uniform does NOT make them innocent. Sorry.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 30, 2014, 2:51 pm

        don’t blame Israel when these people do what Hamass tells them to do and run towards the areas where Israelis have warned bombings are about to happen.

        do you have any source for the allegation palestinians “run towards the areas where Israelis have warned bombings are about to happen” because “Hamass tells them to”?

        seriously, you should stop listening to this stupid contorted hasbara. have you watched this video by mark regev? link to mondoweiss.net

        when people’s homes have been bombed and israel then threatens the shelters where are these innocent people supposed to go?

      • Shingo
        July 30, 2014, 7:04 pm

        Complicity makes them combatants. Just because they do not carry a rifle or wear a uniform does NOT make them innocent. Sorry.

        By those standards, every Israeli who has served in the IDF or supports Israel’s actions in Gaza is a legitimate target.

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2014, 4:31 pm

        “Complicity makes them combatants.

        Holy shit, what a nasty guy you are. Why don’t we just say that breathing makes them complicit?

        “Complicity makes them combatants.”

        Yeah, it’s in the Genava Conventions.

        I am telling you, the only conclusion I can come to is that Zionists have decided that if they present themselves as brutal and heartless, without any kids of ethics, morality and compassion, the world will reward them by giving “the Jews” (who are of course, the property of the Zionists) a state, complete with Helots.
        The idea that it might be more sensible just to get rid of us, never seems to occur to the Zionists.

      • Hostage
        July 30, 2014, 8:42 pm

        Innocent Palestinians deserve to leave the areas they’re being warned are about to be targeted. Innocent Palestinians deserve to take their children out of dangers way after they’ve been warned, rather than going towards the areas that they’ve been told are about to be bombed or picking up leaflets and declaring “this is a joke” as has been documented.

        It is a joke when there is no place they can be evacuated to that isn’t also being targeted by the IDF or in the theater of combat operations. That also has been rather amply documented. You’re engaging undisguised hate speech and incitement.

        Complicity makes them combatants. Just because they do not carry a rifle or wear a uniform does NOT make them innocent. Sorry.

        Listen you ignoramus, the IDF is an invading force in Palestine with no inherent right to be there, much less to blockade and persecute the inhabitants of Gaza for nearly a decade. Killing unarmed civilians is murder, under the laws and customs of war. The civilians there have a perfect right to take up arms spontaneously on the approach of enemy forces and are not guilty of any crime for simply employing small arms to offer resistance and try to kill or capture members of the IDF (even that pisses you off). The fact that people like you have accused them of complicity whether they take up arms or not provides ample justification for them to defend themselves:

        The inhabitants of a territory which has not been occupied, who, on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading troops without having had time to organize themselves in accordance with Article 1, shall be regarded as belligerents if they carry arms openly and if they respect the laws and customs of war.

        link to avalon.law.yale.edu

      • talknic
        July 30, 2014, 10:28 pm

        @ gmeades “Innocent Palestinians deserve to leave the areas they’re being warned are about to be targeted”

        Indeed. But Israel, being the Occupying Power, has had all crossings closed including those with Egypt. To where should they leave? Somewhere else in the war zone?

        “If they’re not complicit, they have the choice to leave the areas”

        The problem with your bullsh*t is: they have no choice but to move to somewhere else in a war zone! Unlike illegal Israeli settlers in occupied territories who ARE complicit and who ARE there illegally assisted by their stupid Government and who ARE free to if they want go live in Israel, go live or take a holiday any number of other countries

        “If they are complicit, then don’t blame Israel when these people do what Hamass tells them to do and run towards the areas where Israelis have warned bombings are about to happen.”

        A) Please supply a neutral source for your assertion that Hamas tells them to run towards the areas where Israelis have warned bombings are about to happen B) Un-armed civilians, babies, children are not combatants you stupid person. C) There is nowhere to go but the war zone D) Ever thought of seeing a shrink for your myopia

      • Hostage
        July 31, 2014, 4:38 am

        Indeed. But Israel, being the Occupying Power . . .

        Whether Israel is the occupying power or not, does not relieve it of the responsibility for only targeting valid military objectives. It isn’t doing that when it issues warnings that say it will be attacking the civilian population in X minutes unless it evacuates to parts unknown. See for example Israel’s Use of Law and Warnings in Gaza link to opiniojuris.org

      • thankgodimatheist
        July 31, 2014, 9:02 am

        “declaring “this is a joke” as has been documented.”
        The origin of “this is a joke” reaction:
        It has been reported that Israelis, not the military this time , looking to have some (cruel) fun at the expense of Gaza’s population have been looking up the phone numbers of Gaza residents in telephone pages, calling them and telling them that their house is about to be bombed. But nothing, of course happens. In the end some in Gaza started to get sick of those jokes and when the military would call to tell them to evacuate they wouldn’t be taken seriously, stay at home and get bombed.
        Your country, sir, is a nation of sadists. Not that we didn’t know mind you.

    • Empiricon
      July 29, 2014, 10:02 am

      Poor Oleg has no hope of seeing the irony of his statement. Ziocaine addiction does that.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 11:41 am

        “Ziocaine addiction”

        Research has pretty conclusively proved that the Ziocaine Syndrome is not of chemical or genetic origin. It seems to be a completely behavioral malady. Unfortunately, there is no sure technique or reliable medication available to ameliorate this debilitating condition.

      • samlebon2306
        July 29, 2014, 1:01 pm

        “Research has pretty conclusively proved that the Ziocaine Syndrome is not of chemical or genetic origin. It seems to be a completely behavioral malady. Unfortunately, there is no sure technique or reliable medication available to ameliorate this debilitating condition.”

        Maybe we turn whole occupied territories into a rehab center. Just stating my optimism.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 2:32 pm

        “Maybe we turn whole occupied territories into a rehab center. Just stating my optimism.”

        I have already stated my willingness to work on this. If I could raise a million dollars for this purpose, I would fly to Israel and keep right on going.

    • lysias
      July 29, 2014, 10:02 am

      I suppose you realize that what you’re saying implies that all Israelis are responsible for the actions of their elected governments, including the current one, and that all Americans are responsible for the actions of their elected governments, including the W and Obama administrations.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 10:17 am

        9/11 was fine by that logic.

      • adele
        July 29, 2014, 11:25 am

        ah, the beauty of zionist apologists & human rights deniers, they keep twisting themselves into a pretzel at their own hands. Meanwhile, Oleg is still pondering and scratching his head how he (a master race) and bin laden share the same political philosophy. Oleg meet irony. Irony meet Oleg.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 12:05 pm

        Look, I love “Jewish” food, and think it’s generally healthy. But it seems to result in an irony-poor diet, when combined with the dyspeptic consequences of Zionism.

      • OlegR
        July 29, 2014, 2:30 pm

        Obviously.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 3:04 pm

        “Obviously.” OlegR

        Well what do you know! G’nossen tsum emess!

    • Giles
      July 29, 2014, 10:32 am

      Then surely all the kids in Israel are legitimate targets seeing as how their folks support Likud. Or is this another one of those situations where one standard applies to the targets of the Zionists and another — or none at all actually — to Israel?

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 10:34 am

      By your standards then Israeli people are also responsible for the massacre going on in Gaza. Surely you are not implying that Israelis are above the laws that Palestinians must adhere to? Considering the war crimes going on in Gaza and the number of casualties the Israeli people then have a lot to answer for.

      • Marnie
        July 29, 2014, 11:35 am

        Yes we are responsible. This was in the paper israel h’yom. It must be thrilling for bibi to see how american jews and gentiles are in lockstep with the call for extermination. No, you won’t have any problem here, they’ll do whatever you say.

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 11:57 am

        I cannot understand where the voices of dissent are in Israel.

        In the US there is always a faction of dissenters, and those who disagree with what their government does in their name. Do people hate the Palestinians that much in large numbers?

      • Marnie
        July 29, 2014, 12:09 pm

        My impression is that people are very afraid to speak against the government. I spent most of my life in the US and always saw a mix of opinions on most things but here, not at all. Even the very young are already on board for whatever the government tells them to do. Remember the story about the high school teacher who was ratted on by his student for saying that the israeli army wasn’t so moral after all. You normally expect young people to rebel against the system but that sure isn’t the case here. They don’t like “the other” period. My daughter was told straight out by a classmate in 6th grade “We don’t like oleh. We only like people born here. We don’t like anyone different.” At age 16, an ethiopian girl in her class was called “Sudanit” (Sudanese girl) by a boy in the class who proudly claimed he hated arabs and anyone who isn’t a jew. This was public school too.

        My husband new the south in america and he said on numerous occasions “this is just like Mississippi.”

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 12:53 pm

        Kay, here is a link to “Not in Our Name”: Jews Stage Massive Anti-War Protests In Tel Aviv, New York and Elsewhere link to globalresearch.ca

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 12:55 pm

        Marnie, for a people who were victims of racism, it is disappointing they have this racist nation full of haters, and that crimes against non Jews are okay.
        They lost their moral compass long time ago.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 2:38 pm

        “They lost their moral compass long time ago.”

        Well, Marnie, it seems to be like this. If we Jews acknowledge that we have lost our moral bearings, it would be like admitting that the persecution we complain about so much (and say is such a big factor in our history) has actually hurt us in some way. And naturally, we can’t do that!!

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 5:17 pm

        “My husband new the south in america and he said on numerous occasions “this is just like Mississippi.”

        That comparison, of Israelis to unreconstructed pre-civil rights white Southerners, has been noted several times here.

      • Djinn
        July 29, 2014, 11:34 pm

        I cannot understand where the voices of dissent are in Israel.

        They exist. Not in very large numbers unfortunately and they’re slandered, marginalised and these days, stalked and beaten by mobs of fascists.

        See Antifa972, Boycott from Within & Anarchists Against the Wall.

    • Hostage
      July 29, 2014, 1:09 pm

      So what you are saying is that citizens do not bear responsibility for the actions of their elected governments ?

      The problem is that you want to have your cake and still eat it too. Israel claims it isn’t occupying all of the Palestinian territories, since the 2005 disengagement from Gaza. In that case Article 2 of the 1907 Hague Convention permits the inhabitants, on the approach of the enemy, to spontaneously take up arms. In addition, if you are going to recognize them as civilian combatants, then the laws and customs of war require that they be treated as POWs whenever they are wounded or captured. Israel can’t simply label them as illegal combatants and violate its obligations under the Geneva Conventions.

      In any event, the prohibition against collective punishment applies to “civilians” and “civilian combatants” alike. Article 33 of the 4th Geneva Convention prohibits collective punishments and reprisals: No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
      Pillage is prohibited.
      Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited. link to icrc.org

      That was hardly anything new. Collective punishments were already prohibited by Article 50 of the 1899 Hague Regulations; Article 50 of the 1907 Hague Regulations; and Article 46, fourth paragraph, of the 1929 Geneva POW Convention. It was also prohibited by Article 26, sixth paragraph, of the Third 1949 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 2:41 pm

        “The problem is that you want to have your cake and still eat it too.”

        But Hostage, haven’t you heard all the people, here, and Zionists all over, saying that Israel is fighting a “war”? I sorta think that maybe they shouldn’t say that, but they seem to think saying they are in a “war” with the Gazans excuses everything they do.

      • Light
        July 29, 2014, 9:42 pm

        Welcome back Hostage. Your informed commentary has been missed.

      • Citizen
        July 30, 2014, 2:05 am

        It appears you are quoting laws not relevant. You need to look up local law on mowing the grass. Or at least remind yourself that those people in Gaza all signed up upon birth for a permanent running segment of Naked And Afraid.

    • gamal
      July 29, 2014, 1:22 pm

      Ok someone needs a civics class at the very least but I am confused, no one is killing the civilians of Gaza they are a) auto genociding b) pallywooding c) they are combatants so our killing of them is not just ok its kinda heroic d) Hamas is human shielding them, do Rabbi’s receive any education at all or just new clothes? He is a threat to other Hasbarists, Zionism needs a Pope of explanations, its becoming a say anything comedy.

      I didnt do it, but if I did I was perfectly justified. naked power is often accompanied by moral turpitude, so what, the stupidity is quite affecting, it certainly moves me.

      • Chu
        July 29, 2014, 1:52 pm

        “Zionism needs a Pope of explanations, its becoming a say-anything comedy” indeed…

    • Stephen Shenfield
      July 29, 2014, 2:18 pm

      I humbly suggest that Israel establish a special agency that would allocate special stickers to Gaza residents who can prove beyond reasonable doubt that they have never voted for or otherwise supported Hamas. The lucky sticker holders would display them prominently on their clothing, vehicles, donkeys etc. and the IDF would of course take extraordinary care to avoid hurting them in any way.

    • Sheff
      July 29, 2014, 3:25 pm

      OlegR

      The average age of Gazans is 17 – so most of them were too young to vote for Hamas and surely can’t be held responsible for what passes for government there.

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2014, 4:42 pm

        “The average age of Gazans is 17 – so most of them were too young to vote for Hamas and surely can’t be held responsible for what passes for government there.”

        You are missing an important distinction. Yes, they can’t be held responsible, but what about “complicity”? See “gmeades” comment above. So as you see, there is no lower limit on the “age of complicity”

    • elephantine
      July 29, 2014, 3:32 pm

      @olegR – So basically what you’re saying is that all Israeli civilians are legitimate targets. All Americans are legitimate targets as well then. OK, it’s disgusting but nice to know where you stand, I guess.

    • Shingo
      July 29, 2014, 4:55 pm

      Do Israelis bear responsibility for electing terrorist leaders like Begin and Shamir? If so, what punishment do you suggest?

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 5:57 pm

        Moshiach will be along shortly. It might be like the buses in london. You wait for ages and then 3 turn up simultaneously.

    • southernobserver
      July 29, 2014, 5:55 pm

      Just to be clear, you are saying that everybody in Israel who voted for the current government is a combatant, and is therefore a legitimate target? And that targetting their personal homes would be wholly legitimate and just the same as attacking an armed brigade.

      Do you really believe that this is a moral and reasonable approach?

      • Marnie
        July 30, 2014, 2:32 pm

        “Do you really believe that this is a moral and reasonable approach?”

        It’s the approach the most moral army in the world is taking, so if it’s good for them, why wouldn’t it be good for all?

  2. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 9:36 am

    That completes my collection of Conservative, Reform and Orthodox bloodlust.

  3. seanmcbride
    July 29, 2014, 9:36 am

    The boundaries between Zionism and mainstream Judaism have completely dissolved and collapsed over the last half century — they now comprise a single ideology and culture. One can’t imagine a greater disaster for Judaism. The reputation and fate of Judaism now rest in the hands of a single nation — Israel — and whatever possibly mad regime is running it at the moment.

    • Bumblebye
      July 29, 2014, 10:58 am

      When the rabbi says “we gave them freedom nine years ago” he would seem to be claiming “Jewish” as his primary NATIONALITY rather than American. But he presumably doesn’t see the need to go grab an Israeli passport, because, well, it’s a ‘birthright’. This sort of comment emphasizes the immense wrong of Israeli nationality laws. He, along with many others, has internalized the message that he is part of a ‘Jewish Nation’ that belongs to/is born part of Israel and owes a primary loyalty to that nation. Wrong wrong wrong.

      • chinese box
        July 29, 2014, 11:17 am

        @Bumbleye

        Not only that, look at the banners and the background, and the way identity is being blurred. Someone holds up a sign “donate here for ‘our’ soldiers” — who does “our” refer to? And the presumptuous way they arrogate NY public opinion for their own cause (“New York stands with Israel”).

        The Zionists never had any serious opposition from the elites or the government or media, so they’ve never had to learn to form serious arguments. And the grandiosity continues.

      • marc b.
        July 29, 2014, 1:28 pm

        they’ve never had to learn to form serious arguments.

        it is a half-baked, juvenile stew of contradictions, non sequitors, and mirror gazing. I used to give Zionists credit for being inventive, but that was a poor assessment. More like the friends I had as a youth with drug problems, saying whatever sh*t comes to mind at the moment to advance their cause. so, for example, Hamas is either a terrorist group holding Gaza hostage (when some half wit is making the ‘we’re bombing Gaza to save Gaza’ argument) or its the elected representative of the people of Gaza, in which case they all deserve to be exterminated.

      • chinese box
        July 29, 2014, 3:03 pm

        “it is a half-baked, juvenile stew of contradictions, non sequitors, and mirror gazing.”

        Perfect description, especially the mirror gazing part…I would add that it also seems to consist entirely of unquestioned received opinion. I think a lot of these people actually believe there own BS at this point.

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 12:00 pm

        Isn’t it ironic that many of the American zionists who spout off against the other side, most often slip up and refer to the Israeli narrative adding a “we” or “us” to their attack on the Palestinians?

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 12:57 pm

        He also implies that Israel has the right to give or deny “freedom” to another human being….Freedom is recognised world wide as a basic human right even by the UN.

      • Hostage
        July 29, 2014, 1:26 pm

        When the rabbi says “we gave them freedom nine years ago” he would seem to be claiming “Jewish” as his primary NATIONALITY rather than American.

        Nope he’s fantasizing about being Israeli. FYI, a poll carried out by the Israel Democracy Institute in cooperation with the Government Press Office, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Ministry of Jerusalem and Diaspora Affairs, the Ministry of Tourism and KKL-JNF revealed that sixty-percent of Israeli Jews believe that the Jewish people in Israel are a nation separate from the Jews abroad. When asked to choose what defines the primary connection between Jews in Israel and Jews in the Diaspora, only 13 percent said nationality. A plurality of respondents selected Jewish culture and tradition (40%). link to ynetnews.com

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 2:44 pm

        ” revealed that sixty-percent of Israeli Jews believe that the Jewish people in Israel are a nation separate from the Jews abroad.”

        Good for them! Music to my ears! They should be heartily encouraged in that direction. I hope the Israeli Jews declare us all trefe and have nothing to do with us. It’ll be hard, but I’ll try to stand it.

      • Citizen
        July 29, 2014, 8:16 pm

        Now let’s talk about the Americans who say “we” when they spew Zionist talking points. Ever read web site Algemeiner?

    • ziusudra
      July 29, 2014, 11:04 am

      Greetings Sean,
      This is what seafoid has been saying all along.
      He has made it a point to separate Zionism & Judaism.
      The persuasiveness of Zio publications are to block a diff.
      betw. Zio ideology & Judaic religion!
      ziusudra
      PS Zios will tell you for sooth that all who confess to Judaism
      are also Zionists.

      • seanmcbride
        July 29, 2014, 12:05 pm

        ziusudra,

        The Jewish religious establishment itself has vociferously embraced Zionism (Jewish ethnic nationalism) as an ideology and removed all distinctions between Judaism and Zionism. This is where Judaism stands in the year 2014. It is really impossible to say now whether Zionism is driving Judaism or Judaism is driving Zionism — they are one and the same thing.

        A few Jewish voices object to these developments, but they are not being heard where it counts — especially at the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations.

      • ritzl
        July 29, 2014, 6:21 pm

        Sean, it’s pretty clear, to me anyway, that Zionism is driving (or seeking to drive/assimilate) Judaism. Israel claims to speak for all Jews and its supporters implement that claim through financial coercion, top-down info/loyalty stovepiping, ostracization [sp?] and disparagement of dissent.

        I don’t see the reciprocal effort where a granular Jewish community is being forceful or united (to the extent either is even possible in a granular community) in any bottom-up influence (supportive or critical) on Zionism. The “driver” function has to be determined by the difference between activism (Zionism) and acquiescence (Judaism).

        To this outsider, some Jews (collectively, a subset of Judaism) are resisting being co-opted by Zionism, but even that phrasing/observation makes it pretty clear that Zionism has defined the issue. I think that dynamic can change/flip by acclamation as acquiescence becomes an increasingly intolerable mode as Israel/Zionism increasingly and recognizably descends into its self-created hell and attempts to drag all Jews/Judaism down with it.

        The glaring problem is what “intolerable” includes/implies. The even bigger problem is that many more Palestinians will die in order for the collective Jewish community/Judaism to hit the “intolerable” threshold.

        PS. If the Occupation and its slow-death dynamic gets re-normalized here and in Palestine, none of this is ever going to happen. What a heartbreaking decision for Palestinians to have to make. But that’s a whole ‘nuther discussion (maybe).

        FWIW.

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 10:02 am

        Ritzl,

        How are Jewish religious leaders (Judaists) being any less proactive and energetic in promoting Zionism than secular Zionists? In fact, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform rabbis often seem to be the most aggressive and influential leaders in the Zionist world these days — one can turn up hundreds of stories on these trends in the Jewish and Israeli media.

        And what precisely now are the ideological differences between Judaism and Zionism? Most leaders of Judaism claim that there are none. Mainstream Judaism is Zionist in precisely the same way that Christian Zionism (a bizarre sect on the periphery of mainstream Christianity) is Zionist.

        Shouldn’t the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jewish communities bear full responsibility for the policies of their leadership? If those communities themselves are not enthusiastically Zionist then why do they not oppose that leadership?

        Were German Christians in the first half of the 20th century responsible for the beliefs and policies of the leading German Christian denominations during that era? Most people I know would argue that they were.

        But even there, I don’t think the merger between Christianity and German ethnic nationalism approached anywhere near the intensity of the merger between Judaism and Zionism over the last half century.

        Isn’t this a huge issue? How many Jewish children are being indoctrinated into the belief that Judaism = Zionism? Aren’t those religious beliefs affecting their political beliefs and behavior in profound ways?

        If this thread is closed, it can be continued here:

        link to friendfeed.com

      • Annie Robbins
        July 30, 2014, 2:42 pm

        Shouldn’t the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jewish communities bear full responsibility for the policies of their leadership? If those communities themselves are not enthusiastically Zionist then why do they not oppose that leadership?

        this sounds a tad like the logic applied here: link to mondoweiss.net

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2014, 4:58 pm

        “this sounds a tad like the logic applied here”

        Annie, if you ask Sean McBride about it, he will be able to give you the date of the general Jewish Convention at which Zionism was wholeheartedly and almost unanimously adopted by Judaism. An official announcement was made.. He might even have a copy of the Resolution.

        So there it is, I guess since we chose and voted for those leaders, and adopted the resolution at a General Assembly, we are responsible. Sean should be able to fill in the details. He’s an expert on the Jewish religion and Jewish history.

      • ritzl
        July 30, 2014, 6:46 pm

        Sean,

        I agree the entrainment of Judaism with Zionism is a huge problem, for everyone involved or sucked up in the Zionist meat grinder. That’s the issue and the sadness.

        I think given the Holocaust there is a huge and rightful affinity among Jews for what Israel might have been. Zionism in all its militant glory took advantage of that affinity from the get go to speak in the names of people who were very vulnerable. I think that vulnerability/affinity/acquiescence (within Judaism) is being quickly tapped out and overshadowed by Israel’s current horrifying lust for killing innocents (not that it wasn’t always that way).

        Zionism, maybe like any manipulation large or small, maliciously trades on trust. Until now, there has not been irrefutable real-time pix to contrast with idiotic, obvious, and changing rationalizations for more killing, as amplified by “pro-slaughter” rallies like the one in NYC. That contrast is calling into question the trust needed to make the machine work.

        But if you want to distinguish what’s doing what to a religion, any religion, you only have to go as far as the CUFI organization.

        Bumblebye (iirc, sorry my search skills are worse than my grammar) pointed out a few months ago that CUFI was a Zionist overlay shopped around to the various fundie Christian organizations (and I don’t know this for a fact, but most likely with Zionist funding attached). It is run by a Zionist Jew, David Brog. CUFI is not an upwelling/clamor of fundie Christians to support Israel. It’s a [funded?] Zionist mechanism used to direct info down/outflow into the Christian community and prompt, organize, and channel support/political upflow (based on that selective info) from people with an affinity for Israel but not necessarily with a hardcore activist bent (with Hagee skimming a few points off the top, no doubt).

        So if you control for religion, the process is clear. Zionism is a/the coercive force, not the other way around.

        And I agree fully with Annie below (or above?). Holding all Jews responsible for the crimes of Zionism is exactly what Zionists are trying to do to Palestinians. It sucks either way, so I guess that reciprocal “suckiness” is where I personally choose to apply my consistency. Not so much on the Judaism v. Zionism front.

        As always, FWIW. I fully recognize YMMV.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 12:08 pm

        “PS Zios will tell you for sooth that all who confess to Judaism
        are also Zionists.”

        Oddly enough, so will some anti-Zionists! Not me, God forbid, but some.

      • Citizen
        July 29, 2014, 8:26 pm

        @ Mooser
        Every Jew born and bred, educated and very protected, living in America very well, say knee jerk Zionist notion all Jews are victims. What’s your experience?

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 5:14 pm

        Mooser,

        The facts of interest in this matter are the official statements that a large majority Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jewish leaders have made about Israel and Zionism over the last half century — many of which are easy to retrieve with Google. I would ask you to do some Googling of your own on this subject, but you’ve made it clear that research, scholarship, fact-collection and fact-checking don’t engage your attention.

        The truth is, those leaders have fully Zionized Judaism — in fact, erased all distinctions between Judaism and Zionism. Right-wing rabbis continue to acquire ever-greater influence and power in Israel, while traditionally left-wing Jewish religious institutions in America (like Reform Judaism) find themselves increasingly in the same camp with Likud Zionists.

        Young religious Jews are being indoctrinated into the belief by religious authorities that Judaism = Zionism — probably that is why quite a few of them are abandoning Judaism.

        We’ve discussed this issue in some detail here:

        link to friendfeed.com

        And that forum is permanently open to pursue that conversation when this thread closes.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 30, 2014, 8:48 pm

        sean, as for promoting conversations like “More on Mooser, Judaism and Zionism” and “Ritzl on Judaism and Zionism”

        i think people around here know where to find you by now.

      • W.Jones
        July 30, 2014, 5:15 pm

        Mooser,

        If 80% of a given community supports a political system, and the community’s leaders and its official organizations with the most members support a political system, can it be said that “the community supports the political system”? I am not asking that as a rhetorical question.

        It would be unpleasant for me to say that “American society supports” certain bad policies that I may strongly disagree with, even when it is only, say, 20% of the population that agrees with me. This is because I am reluctant to make a broad statement about people’s beliefs. The SCJ for example does not take a theological position about the Levant today.

      • W.Jones
        July 30, 2014, 6:17 pm

        Mooser, I meant to add that the “AJC” (American Council for Judaism), not the SJC, does not take a position. So it’s not like if you belong to a certain religion you must take a certain position on this topic.

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 8:59 pm

        Annie,

        I am trying to provide a platform for people to pursue conversations in threads on Mondoweiss that have been closed before participants have fully developed their thoughts — on any topic related to Mideast politics. Quite a few people have expressed frustration about threads being closed in midstream. This has nothing to do with Mooser.

        There should be no problem that I can of in expanding the ability of commenters here to communicate with one another. In fact, you have complained about the heavy volume of comments you have had to deal with here. The early closing of threads may not be the optimal solution. The more communication the better, in my opinion.

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 9:11 pm

        Annie,

        Btw, are email notifications for new comments on selected articles still working since the change in servers? (I think I’ve noticed some missing comments today.)

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 5:18 pm

        Annie,

        Can you expand your thoughts a bit? The comment you are replying to is packed with quite a few specific ideas.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 30, 2014, 8:26 pm

        the comment i responded to was: Shouldn’t the Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jewish communities bear full responsibility for the policies of their leadership? If those communities themselves are not enthusiastically Zionist then why do they not oppose that leadership?

        which sounds a lot to me like “shouldn’t gazan communities bear full responsibility for the policies of their leadership? If those communities themselves are not enthusiastically pro hamas then why do they not oppose that leadership?”

        and my answer would be no, the communities should not bear full responsibility because, for one thing,there are a lot of other people who should bear responsibility..like the US congress for one thing.

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 7:58 pm

        ritzl,

        Thoughtful post — good points.

        To develop your ideas a bit further: there is a great deal of difference between CUFI (which you rightly point out is controlled by a Jewish Zionist, David Brog) and the mainstream Jewish religious establishment (Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism).

        CUFI is not a mainstream Christian organization — far from it — it is so far on the fringe that one could describe it as an anti-Christian cult. And it didn’t develop its Zionism from within — it was foisted on it from without

        The Jewish religious establishment, on the other hand, which is arguably the dominant component of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, does represent the Jewish mainstream — and its Zionism is generated from within — the leaders of Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism are passionate Jewish nationalists acting in what they perceive as their self-interest.

        “Holding all Jews responsible for the crimes of Zionism” is certainly not an idea I endorse. What I have argued is that the Jewish religious establishment needs to be held responsible for transforming Judaism into an ethnic nationalist ideology organized around the interests of a foreign government — Israel. That establishment has indoctrinated its followers in the belief that they owe a fervent loyalty to Zionism and Israel based on Torah myths and symbols revolving around sacred peoplehood, sacred nationhood and sacred territory.

        This is a huge problem from the standpoint of Jewish interests — they may well succeed in destroying Judaism as a viable religion if the Zionist project continues on its current disastrous trajectory, dragging religious Jews with it.

      • seanmcbride
        July 30, 2014, 8:42 pm

        Annie,

        Anyone who is a member of the Hamas community, and who supports the policies of the Hamas leadership, surely bears some responsibility for Hamas policies (regardless of what one thinks of those policies). I presume that many Gazans don’t support Hamas, and of course are therefore *not* responsible for Hamas policies.

        Generally members of religious and political groups with specific beliefs and policies share responsibility for those beliefs and policies. They have freely chosen to join those groups. They have the option of leaving those groups if they disagree with them — or in working to change the agenda of those groups.

        In any case, in this discussion, the focus should be on role of the Jewish religious establishment in merging Judaism with Zionism into a single ethno-religious nationalist ideology that is an arm of the Israeli government and the Israel lobby — and under no circumstances are we talking about Jews in general, many of whom are secular — or who may be religious and disagree with the Jewish religious establishment.

  4. just
    July 29, 2014, 9:38 am

    Not really sure if hell is big enough to hold all of these folks– 86.5% of Israelis support the genocide of Palestinians.

    How many rabbis? I know the US Congress is at 100%. 95% Israeli ‘academic colleagues’ of the authors and signatories to the letter in The Lancet.

    btw– isn’t this incitement? Hope the NYPD is watching carefully.

    (LOL/not)

    • Chu
      July 29, 2014, 9:47 am

      whenever I watch these rallies, I’m in awe of the patent dishonesty that they use to demonize the dispossessed Palestinians that have been put in the Gazan prison camps. Since Israel has no solution to this dilemma they are destroying the Gaza refugee camp from land, air and sea.

      But ‘Hamas’ is using civilians as shields is the weakest lie that they all seem to yell at the highest pitch. Israel is bombing UN schools and blaming Hamas for accidental rocket fire. Where’s the proof? Zionist don’t need proof – they need slogans and the hive mind.

    • ziusudra
      July 29, 2014, 11:13 am

      Greetings just,
      … 86,5% of Israelis support genocide of Palestinians…..
      The 613 Mitzvot have brainwashed them. This is the
      carryover & basis of their tribal mindset in their Religion
      till the present day. They should have stuck with the 10
      Commandments, like Moses did. The ancient Judaic Clergy
      ne’er told them that ‘eye for an eye’ was but punishment in the
      court of King Hammurati of Babylonia & not a price tag
      imposed w/o a court of law for the 21th C.
      ziusudra

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 11:39 am

        True, ziusudra.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 12:34 pm

        “They should have stuck with the 10
        Commandments, like Moses did.”

        He did? What a man! I can’t manage to obey more than oh, three at the most, on any given day. But they were made of sterner stuff back in the Bible days.

    • michelle
      July 29, 2014, 2:41 pm

      .
      hate takes ‘its’ place between
      ‘you’ and G-d
      this divide is worse than hell
      .
      G-d Bless
      .

  5. Chu
    July 29, 2014, 9:43 am

    The Rabbi says at min 6:20 ‘Israel is the most moral army in the history of civilization’ to roaring applause. Gee, I never heard that one.

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 10:11 am

      Reminds me of the crowds that cheered Hitler, and encouraged his crimes on innocent civilians. The mob mentality.

    • marc b.
      July 29, 2014, 1:35 pm

      The Rabbi says at min 6:20 ‘Israel is the most moral army in the history of civilization’ to roaring applause. Gee, I never heard that one.

      chu, these types are always pushing the superlative envelope. it’s kind of a reverse vertigo: if they aren’t balancing atop the pinnacle of ‘the most/the best’, they get all dizzy and disoriented.

      • Chu
        July 29, 2014, 1:58 pm

        yeah, marc – that and the ziocane before he got on stage – a wee bit of the old ziocane right before a rally can get even the softest rabbis on top of their game. apparently he took too many doses…

  6. oldgeezer
    July 29, 2014, 9:43 am

    Truly a sick mind. When supposedly intelligent people think this way it’s easy to see how war crimes and genocide occurs.

    • seafoid
      July 29, 2014, 10:04 am

      It is dreadful to see this happening to Judaism. As if there is no escaping the Holocaust, ever. And all driven by the donors.

    • Chu
      July 29, 2014, 10:22 am

      sick, indeed. But they all think like this. this hive mind. They seem to get pumped up on defending each other, but they are the aggressor (history proves this). And what’s more infuriating, is they are not in the Jewish state, they are in a ‘supposed’ liberal city spouting fascist talking points. What an embarrassing reality these people reveal.

  7. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 9:48 am

    Is there a court for Gaza or is halacha the authority ?

    • just
      July 29, 2014, 9:59 am

      In a nutshell. Thanks, seafoid.

    • michelle
      July 29, 2014, 2:52 pm

      .
      no fair i’m on dial so i miss all these types of bits
      oh well such is life, if i were ment to i would be able to
      .
      G-d Bless
      .

  8. subconscious
    July 29, 2014, 9:49 am

    Norman Finkelstein has called for civil disobedience action at the Israeli mission to the UN for today, Tue 7/29/14:
    link to facebook.com
    The goal was to get at least 100 people, which I’m not sure if they’ve reached yet, but they’re down there at the moment, “WE’RE MARCHING AND WE’RE GETTING ARRESTED!” & “IT’S TIME TO ACT! ISRAEL MUST BE STOPPED!” His latest message at the FB page reads, “CAN SOMEONE BRING SOUND EQUIPMENT TO THE DEMO?”

  9. just
    July 29, 2014, 9:53 am

    Uh- oh.

    ‘Spike missile’ used to murder 4 babes playing football on beach– it has a camera in its nose so they can see who/what they are targeting (from Bill Van Esveld, HRW on CNN).

    He goes on to start to dispel the allegations wrt ‘human shields use by Hamas”.

    (big plumes of smoke over Gaza, perhaps 2,000 lb bombs acc. to Penhaul)

    • lysias
      July 29, 2014, 10:07 am

      So could they have diverted or aborted the missile once they saw the targets were young children? If they could, that would render allowing the missile to kill the boys cold-blooded murder.

      I wonder if this explains the reporting that the children killed yesterday were hit by a drone. I suppose someone could think a “Spike missile” is a drone.

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 10:11 am

        from wiki:

        “Spike is a fire-and-forget missile with lock-on before launch and automatic self-guidance. The missile is equipped with an imaging infrared seeker.

        The medium, long and extended range versions of the Spike also have the capability of “Fire, Observe and Update” operating mode. The missile is connected by a fiber-optical wire that is spooled out between the launch position and the missile. With this the operator can obtain a target if it is not in the line of sight of the operator at launch, switch targets in flight, or compensate for the movement of the target if the missile is not tracking the target for some reason. Hence, the missile can be fired speculatively for a target of opportunity, or to provide observation on the other side of an obstacle. The missile has a soft launch capability – the motor firing after the missile has left the launcher- which allows for the missile to be fired from confined spaces, which is a necessity in urban warfare.”

      • lysias
        July 29, 2014, 11:44 am

        And if the children killed yesterday in the playground were also killed by a “Spike missile,” then that was also cold-blooded murder.

      • lysias
        July 29, 2014, 3:34 pm

        It turns out “Spike” missiles can be fired from Israeli drones. IDF believed to be using armed UAVs .

      • lysias
        July 30, 2014, 3:12 pm

        Also turns out “Spike” missiles fly at low speed.

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 10:54 am

      Someone should ask the zionists supporters in congress about this. There is no doubt this missile was deliberately sent to blast these innocent boys, there are witnesses to the crime too. Do the disgusting American politicians still think Israeli is defending itself, if so were the little kids a threat to these cowards?

    • ckg
      July 29, 2014, 10:54 am

      @Just, Kay24. Wow. On July 18 HRW’s Bill Van Esveld wrote:

      Atrocious as much of the Israeli bombing campaign of Gaza has been, it is hard to imagine Israeli forces deliberately trying to kill Ismail Bakr, 9, and his three cousins, Ahed, 10, Zakariya, 10, and Mohammad, 11, with an apparent missile attack, particularly when they were directly in front of a hotel full of foreign journalists.

      I wonder if he’s ready to walk-back that statement now. He was criticized by many at the time for imputing a lack of intent. It’s a critical issue since the words ‘intent’ or ‘intentionally’ appear 28 times in ICC’s Rome Statute.

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 11:23 am

        Yes, but apparently on July 22 this was published:

        “Israel should cease attacks that cause loss of civilian life and property in violation of the laws of war. Human Rights Watch investigated eight Israeli airstrikes that were apparent violations of the laws of war before the ground offensive that began on July 17, 2014. The findings and reports of numerous new civilian casualties heightened concerns for the safety of civilians during the ground offensive.

        On July 16, an Israeli missile struck a shack on a Gaza City pier, killing four young boys from the Bakr family who were playing nearby. Seconds later, another missile struck, wounding a fisherman and three more children on the beach fleeing the scene. The Israeli military said it attacked the shack because it was an “identified Hamas structure” but mistakenly targeted the boys – aged 10 to 13 – as “fleeing fighters.” The Israelis did not say why the structure was a lawful military objective – a “Hamas structure” is not a military target unless used for military purposes. Attacks that are not directed at a specific military target are unlawful. Nor can an attacker lawfully presume that anyone seen fleeing an attack is a combatant, and in cases of doubt must presume the person is a civilian, protected from attack. Evidence at the scene indicates that the attack was carried out with Spike missiles, which have sensors that allow the operator to see the target even after the missile is fired and divert them mid-course if the target is not clearly military.”

        much more here:

        link to trust.org

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 11:28 am

        Ckg, looks like B.V. Esveld, has had additional information now. Perhaps the evidence now show that it was not an accident, but a deliberate war crime of murder of little boys. Hence the change in his opinion. The hatred Israelis have within them is unbelievable. This entire war smacks of collective punishment, disregard for civilian lives, and as if they have an ultimate number of Palestinians they must kill, whether it is adults or children. This is inhumane behavior.
        I wish some courageous journalist would ask our Israeli firsters if they thought this was acceptable.

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 1:20 pm

        “particularly when they were directly in front of a hotel full of foreign journalists.”

        So…they were either targeting innocent children on a beach or journalists…both are war crimes!

    • ckg
      July 29, 2014, 11:27 am

      A HRW statement from July 22 mentions the use of the Spike missile in this incident:

      On July 16, an Israeli missile struck a shack on a Gaza City pier, killing four young boys from the Bakr family who were playing nearby…The Israeli military said it attacked the shack because it was an “identified Hamas structure” but mistakenly targeted the boys – aged 10 to 13 – as “fleeing fighters.” The Israelis did not say why the structure was a lawful military objective – a “Hamas structure” is not a military target unless used for military purposes. Attacks that are not directed at a specific military target are unlawful. Nor can an attacker lawfully presume that anyone seen fleeing an attack is a combatant, and in cases of doubt must presume the person is a civilian, protected from attack.

      Evidence at the scene indicates that the attack was carried out with Spike missiles, which have sensors that allow the operator to see the target even after the missile is fired and divert them mid-course if the target is not clearly military.

      Edit: woops… I see @just beat me to it.

  10. Ron Edwards
    July 29, 2014, 9:53 am

    “… in the history of civilization” …?! Morality upgrade! Next it’ll be “throughout the solar system,” or “across the known dimensions.”

  11. Kay24
    July 29, 2014, 10:05 am

    They speak of madrases teaching children hate, but here quite openly their beloved rabbi is inciting the flock to kill innocent Paletinians (whose crime was to democratically vote) and turn them all into hate filled human beings. Seems the rabbi is doing the devil’s work. It certainly is not from any religion I know of. That okay with our Congress?

    I just watched a HRW spokesman say that the weapon used by Israel to kill the four little boys who were playing soccer on a beach, was a weapon that had a camera on it and that they would have been able to see who it was hitting. This is nothing but a brutal murder of little children. These monsters deliberately seem to have sent their deadly weapon on innocent kids. What kind of human beings are these? Why are they so sadistic like the nazis were? Have they forgotten what it was like when their children were targets of vicious nazi crimes?

    The US leaders who keep covering Israel’s criminal behind, are just as guilty as those who send their deadly missiles into children. No remorse, no condemnation, but plenty of lies from the war criminals.

    • Kathryn
      July 29, 2014, 2:20 pm

      With the crash of the Malaisian flight over Ukraine, govts around the world immediately called for a moment of Silence…..for Gaza’s inhabitants…..nothing, thus showing the world picking and choosing whose lives have value and who doesnt.

      Where is the “Right 2 Protect” gang? US, UK, France, Canada, where are you?

      Where is so called the most powerful president Barak Obama? The nobel price winner for peace!!! It’s a sick joke! US should stop playing and talking about freedom and democracy. What a sick world we live in!!

  12. gr.chris
    July 29, 2014, 10:07 am

    If you are wearing jeans and a t shirt and carrying an ak-47…. You are a combatant….

    Does that also apply to M-16 toting settlers in the West Bank?

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 10:36 am

      Yes indeed. In fact our State Department calls their crimes “terroristic activities”.
      They are therefore Israel’s terrorists.

  13. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 10:10 am

    Israel desperately needs something like Stiff Little Fingers

    “Inflammable material is planted in my head
    It’s a suspect device that’s left 2000 dead

    Their solutions are our problems
    They put up the wall
    On each side time and prime us
    Make sure we get fuck all

    They play their games of power
    They try to mark the pack
    They deal us to the bottom
    But what do they put back?

    Don’t believe them
    Don’t believe them
    Don’t be bitten twice
    You gotta sus-sus-suspect device

    They take away our freedom
    In the name of liberty
    Why can’t they all just clear off
    Why can’t they let us be

    They make us feel indebted
    For saving us from hell
    And then they put us through it
    It’s time the bastards fell

    Don’t believe them
    Don’t believe them
    Don’t be bitten twice
    You gotta sus-sus-suspect device

    Don’t believe them
    Don’t believe them
    I try to question everything you’re told

    Just take a look around you
    At the bitterness and spite
    Why can’t we take over
    And try to put it right

    Please don’t believe us
    Don’t believe us
    Don’t be bitten twice
    You gotta sus-sus-suspect device

    We’re a suspect device if we do what we are told
    But a suspect device can score an own goal
    I’m a suspect device the Army can’t defuse
    You’re a suspect device they know they can’t refuse
    We’re gonna blow up in their face”

  14. subconscious
    July 29, 2014, 10:11 am

    Maybe Weiss has more footage of it, but here’s a short clip of senator Chuck Schumer at the rally calling for more attacks:

    An acquaintance of mine happened to be on a public city bus at the same time that some of the participants who were leaving the rally were on it. He says that a couple of the older women (rally participants) on the bus were loudly calling for the wiping off of all Gazans from the face of the earth based on fatwas issued by some rabbis against enemies of Israel. The loud genocidal outbursts embarrassed even the other rally participants on the bus, who admonished the women to tone down the racism in public.

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 10:39 am

      It seems all the accusations against the Arabs and the other side, are merely projections of what they do and their crimes.
      This is indeed a fatwa issued by radical rabbis. These two battle-axes were obviously carried away by the incitement.

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 11:32 am

        Schumer is a schmuck, who should be in the knesset, like menendez, ros-lehtinen, barbara boxer, mccain, lindsey graham, and all the others who are in AIPAC’s pockets.

    • Chu
      July 29, 2014, 10:56 am

      That Chuck, such a statesman. Not one at this pro-rally evens mentions that Israel has overreacted with zealous aggression. But #shooting-fish-in-a-barrel is about to escalate, says Netanyahu in his speech yesterday. I think we’re going to see triple the civilian deaths from Caste Lead. These 2 to 4 year bombing campaigns against Gazans have become quite the Olympics in Israel.

      Gaza War (2008–09), also known as Operation Cast Lead
      2012 conflict, also known as Operation Pillar of Defense
      2014 Israel–Gaza conflict, also known as Operation Protective Edge

    • subconscious
      July 29, 2014, 11:08 am

      There were apparently a whole lineup of various public officials at the rally, estimated at about 10,000, trying to outdo each other in expressing support for Israel. Here’s freshman Congressman Hakeem Jeffries, who should write the next Netanyahu speech:
      link to vimeo.com
      Reps. Eliot Engel, Nydia Velazquez, Grace Meng & Steve Israel didn’t miss the boat:
      link to jpupdates.com
      “Rep. Steve Israel announced he will be traveling to Israel on Saturday to express his support for Israel. “Not only do we stand with Israel in New York, we stand with Israel in Israel,” he said. [Congressman] Israel also announced a congressional letter directed to the UN in which congressional members warn the international body not to investigate Israel’s operation in Gaza. “If you want to investigate Israel for alleged war crimes, give it up! Investigate Hamas instead,” he said to thunderous applause.”
      And more from Senator Schumer,
      ““Let us not forget one word describes why there are so many innocent who died: Hamas. Who is responsible for the deaths of so many of these Palestinian civilians?” The crowd chanted “Hamas!” “That is exactly right. The bottom line is very simple. We must send a message from one corner of this globe to the other and to that building over there [the UN] that you will not have peace as long as Hamas has power. Hamas is a terrorist organization sworn to Israel’s destruction who believes they have a moral right to start war at any occasion [apparently, w/ no sense of irony].””
      link to observer.com
      A rally participant: http://www.vosizneias.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/h_51499825-725×475.jpg

      • Nevada Ned
        July 29, 2014, 9:35 pm

        The only good news is that only 10,000 people showed up at the pro-war rally. If roughly 2 million Jews live in NYC, that means the turnout was 0.5% with 99.5% of Jews in NYC not attending the rally.

        That’s a big decline from the distant past. For example, in the early 1970’s, the Salute to Israel Parade turned out 300,000 people. (I recall reading about it in the newspapers at the time). Some carried signs saying “Arab Blood Must Flow!”, so the message was the same as today. But some Jews (not ALL Jews) are becoming disillusioned with Israel.

    • Kathryn
      July 29, 2014, 1:27 pm

      Let’s face it if Palestinians were Jews the whole world and their dog would be on their way to exterminate whoever is killing them. But they are not Jews they are Muslims so no one even sees them as humans. At best they are looked down upon as people that brought this on themselves, because fighting for your freedom or against an occupation and not sanctioned by the US/NATO is called “terrorism” these days.

      • James Canning
        July 29, 2014, 4:41 pm

        One might question whether building tunnels in order to make small attacks possible here and there, was such a great idea. One can see why the Palestinians would like to be able to retaliate in some fashion, however.

    • Shingo
      July 29, 2014, 5:39 pm

      He says that a couple of the older women (rally participants) on the bus were loudly calling for the wiping off of all Gazans from the face of the earth based on fatwas issued by some rabbis against enemies of Israel.

      And they have the chutzpah to condemn the Hamas Charter!!

      • Shingo
        July 29, 2014, 6:18 pm

        Yes I agree Talknic,

        But it gets tiresome to have to quote those qualifiers every time the Hamas Charter is brought up.

        And let’s face it, the document is stupid and should be trashed. While it might come down to problems with translation, it contains so many inconsistencies that it is pretty indefensible.

        One minute it talks about fighting Jews and referring g to them hiding behind trees, the next it calls for a Jews, Muslims and Christians to live in peace and security under Islam.

        Whoever wrote it wasn’t too bright. The thing is a PR disaster, and for Hamas not to have figured out that they need the international community on side, suggests they are getting some terrible advice.

      • Citizen
        July 30, 2014, 2:35 am

        yeah, the HAMAS charter is like walking around with a switch blade knife, and claiming you are Jesus ready to kiss everybody’s dirty feet. Some HAMAS bright light should just burn it in public. Israel has a declaration of independence, but also basic laws and no constitution. HAMAS has yet to learn how to speak with forked tongue.

        When discussing said charter, always also discuss Likud party platform. You know, context?

    • subconscious
      July 30, 2014, 4:07 am

      Is this the same woman as the one on the bus?
      From link to thenation.com
      “… there [at the pro-Israel rally] were a couple of people with signs, in English, Arabic and Hebrew, mourning the dead in Gaza. “To the older woman who kept following me with her own ‘Stand with Israel’ sign to block my own sign and yelling out loud—look at the traitor—he’s a mamzer—a bastard—I turned and said, calmly—my father is a Holocaust Survivor, please respect him if not me,” wrote the rabbinical student Amichai Lau-Lavie. “To which she replied—he should have died there. There were other obscene and racist statements that I won’t describe.” People like this woman, obviously, are not reachable.”

  15. eljay
    July 29, 2014, 10:15 am

    >> … Rabbi David-Seth Kirshner, who is an executive of the NY Board of Rabbis, suggested that Palestinians who voted for Hamas are combatants who deserve to be targeted by Israel. He said:

    When you are part of an election process that asks for a terrorist organization which proclaims in word and in deed that their primary objective is to destroy their neighboring country and not to build schools or commerce or jobs, you are complicit and you are not a civilian casualty.

    The rabbi failed to note that when you are part of a supremacist state’s election process that asks for a supremacist government to defend that supremacist state’s:
    – existence as a supremacist state;
    – 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, occupation, colonization, destruction, torture and murder;
    – refusal to honour its obligations under international law;
    – refusal to accept responsibility and accountability for its past and ON-GOING (war) crimes; and
    – refusal to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace,
    …you are similarly complicit and, therefore, not a civilian casualty.

    >> The rabbi did not make it clear how he would sort out Palestinians who voted for HAmas.

    “Tuez-les tous – Dieu reconnaîtra les siens.”

    • G. Seauton
      July 29, 2014, 5:44 pm

      What we’re seeing here in the U.S. is a metaphorical reenactment of the Milgram experiments, with most of the commenters on this site representing the very small percentage of people who would not follow the experimenters’ instructions.

      • G. Seauton
        July 29, 2014, 7:08 pm

        Or to put it more accurately, we have a real-life demonstration of the reality that the Milgram experiment suggested was the case.

  16. just
    July 29, 2014, 10:18 am

    Blood- curdling video and information, subconscious.

    Evil is being nurtured here by pro- Israeli propagandists and liars. I pray that it does not triumph.

    • seafoid
      July 29, 2014, 10:31 am

      I don’t see much in the way of people standing up to it either. It’s really scary.

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 10:48 am

        It says a lot when we are reduced to cheering for the few truth- telling journalists…and I am sincerely grateful to those that are risking life, limb and their livelihood for doing so.

      • G. Seauton
        July 29, 2014, 6:28 pm

        Seafoid, I have to ask: what makes you so confident that the Israeli regime will soon be gone? As long as Israel continues to receive its generous financial and military aid from the U.S. — and there’s no likelihood of that being cut anytime in the next couple of decades — it can keep all this up indefinitely, I would say.

      • seafoid
        July 30, 2014, 3:47 am

        Israel is a plaything of elites but it’s dependent on outside trade to keep going. Hasbara is failing. The risk landscape – Climate change, financial system disarray, low growth – the conditions that defined the post war period are all fading away. Apartheid will become impossible to support. Israel will become more and more expensive to defend and to run . What’s happening within Israel- the drift ever rightward. The demographic trends- orthodox birth rate especially. I don’t think Israeli society will be able to generate the growth it needs to stay independent.

        It all looks quite bleak, I think.

  17. bilal a
    July 29, 2014, 10:34 am

    perhaps its time for palestine activists to stop censoring the discussion of the link between jewish and evangelical identity politics / culture, and violent zionism.

    cultures , like people, can get sick.
    .
    ‘patriot’ Ammunitions manufacturer selling pork-coated bullets to fight Muslims
    link to salon.com

  18. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 10:39 am

    This war in Gaza is so different to Cast Lead and the 2012 version. This time it’s so obvious, the putrefaction of Zionism, the brainwashing in the Israeli education system, the complete contempt for human rights, the absence of any meaningful left in Israel, the role of people like Schumer and those senior NY rabbis in keeping the tone low, the complete abandonment of morality in the name of the “Jewish homeland”. And it won’t stop here either. The iterations are just going to get worse.

    • ziusudra
      July 29, 2014, 11:40 am

      Greetings seafoid,
      This speech of this Senator Shows us the banality & normacy of how is carried out. Now for those of us who weren’t in Nazi Germany before WWII. Present by Senator Cato who preached 7 yrs. that Carthage must fall. In the Mid West when Senators spured up incitement against the Indians. The fiendish posses who tracked down runaway slaves. Lastly the normalcy of the way that emperors started the murdering games at the colloseum. We were there by Sen. Schuemer.
      ziusudra

  19. Kay24
    July 29, 2014, 10:42 am

    Louder calls for BDS, and hopefully others will follow. Massive protest rallies in London, around 10,000 march for the Palestinian people. Good luck to all.
    Unlike the US the zionist occupation is lesser in the UK and other EU nations.

    link to electronicintifada.net

  20. eljay
    July 29, 2014, 10:42 am

    In related news, Zio-supremacists urge their less-hardy co-collectivists to “support whatever actions it takes” and to “hold their noses at actions they cannot do themselves” until the massacre is complete, at which time everyone will be able to “primarily celebrate”.

  21. yonah fredman
    July 29, 2014, 10:42 am

    The rabbi is wrong, very wrong. Casting a ballot does not make you a soldier.

    There is a logic of not allowing Hamas to run in elections. But once you allow Hamas to run in elections you cannot frame civilian status based upon what you do in the voting booth. It is ridiculous and stupid to assert as much.

    The opinion regarding Hamas that it needs to be uprooted is based upon wishful thinking, but it is “kosher” to declare a political party nonkosher. Those who seek to reoccupy the Gaza Strip are not playing with a full deck and they are not dealing with reality. That reality is primarily international: meaning outside the boundaries of Israel-Palestine and they are blinding themselves to the rest of the world.

    There are two general directions to choose from vis a vis Hamas. Disregarding their charter and emphasizing their charter are the two directions. (shorthand, simplified.) My tendency is to disregard it, but those who emphasize it can point to the experience of the last few years and even to the experience of the MB in Egypt and the tumult in the region and conclude that uprooting Hamas is a logical aim. But this logic denies the role that the world plays in Israel’s economy and political life.

    Armchair generals living in a bubble of Fox News and like minded people are not aware of the world and that is the case with this rabbi.

    • ziusudra
      July 29, 2014, 11:46 am

      Greetings jonah fredman,
      Well put, Babe.
      Mein Menschliche Freund.
      ziusudra
      PS Armchair Generals do know, but
      are not in the way of harm as we are.

    • Mooser
      July 29, 2014, 11:52 am

      “The rabbi is wrong, very wrong. Casting a ballot does not make you a soldier.”

      But Yonah, what about the ROCKETS? The thousands of rockets, launched by Hamas hiding behind Gazan children, WHAT ABOUT THE ROCKETS?

      Why don’t we go to your archive from just a few days ago and see what you said about the Gazans? Ah, but now you’ve changed your mind? Okay, now bring all the Gazans back to life.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 12:11 pm

        Mooser

        Most problems can be solved with the application of sufficient quantities of money.

        link to aipac.org

        “Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-NH) spearheaded a bipartisan letter to U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon that criticizes his recent statement calling Israel’s military operations in Gaza an “atrocious action.”

        The letter, also signed by Sens. Ben Cardin (D-MD), Marco Rubio (R-FL), Mark Kirk (R-IL) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC), states that the secretary-general’s comments “failed to recognize an important fact: in this conflict, one side is trying to protect civilians while the other is deliberately trying to kill them.”

        “Israel is under attack,” the letter states, “and Israel, like any other state, has a right to defend itself. No nation can accept two thousand rockets being launched at its cities and towns. As you know, Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations recognizes a nation’s right to self-defense.”

        Since Operation Protective Edge began on July 8, Gaza terrorists have fired more than 2,000 rockets at Israel.

        The text of the letter follows:

        Dear Mr. Secretary-General:

        We write to convey our strong objections to your comments on July 20 describing Israel’s military operations in Gaza as an “atrocious action.” We share your deep concern regarding civilian casualties on both sides, but your comments failed to recognize an important fact: in this conflict, one side is trying to protect civilians while the other is deliberately trying to kill them. Israel is undertaking extraordinary efforts to avoid civilian casualties while Hamas cynically uses other Palestinians as human shields and attempts to deliberately kill Israeli civilians.

        When leaders and organizations of the United Nations blur the clear distinction between a nation-state defending itself and a terrorist organization attempting to murder civilians-and suggest the two are morally equivalent-it results in three dangerous outcomes. First, it does a great disservice to the credibility of the U.N. Second, it lends a degree of perceived legitimacy that terrorist organizations do not deserve. Third, and most problematically, it undercuts the legitimate right of nation-states to defend their citizens.

        Israel is under attack, and Israel, like any other state, has a right to defend itself. No nation can accept two thousand rockets being launched at its cities and towns. As you know, Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations recognizes a nation’s right to self-defense.

        While we share your desire to see an end to hostilities as soon as possible, your statement was not helpful. We respectfully request that your future comments recognize the fact that the “atrocious action” is the deliberate terrorist attack on civilians-not the measured response of a nation-state trying to defend its citizens.

        Thank you for your consideration of our concerns. ”

        R stands for Rabid
        I think NH means New Hampshire.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 12:49 pm

        Thanks, Seafoid.

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 12:58 pm

        AIPAC pulls ‘em out of it’s pockets, and orders them to be good soldiers for Israel. They do it’s bidding without a murmur.
        The power of campaign contributions and the power of an alien nation in the corridors of congress and beyond. Sheesh.

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 1:35 pm

        Show us the evidence of the carnage and death caused by the so called rocket barrage that is supposed to be landing every minute of every hour causing untold death and destruction in the chosen peoples homes and cities of Israel

    • Citizen
      July 30, 2014, 2:44 am

      How to become a rabbi: link to wikihow.com

  22. Citizen
    July 29, 2014, 10:43 am

    Daniel Goldhagen holds all Germans guilty of the Shoah. Same logic holds all Americans guilty of the continuing Nabka, the continuing incremental genocide of the Palestinian people since at least 1947. Nazi regime only lasted 12 years. Time to end the Zionist regime. Main block on progress is AIPAC matrix, using bribery, aka the US political campaign finance system. King Dollar. And who’s the best at that?

  23. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 10:46 am

    Imagine if Martin Buber was around to see this.

    link to en.wikipedia.org
    “Buber believed the potential of Zionism was for social and spiritual enrichment. For example, Buber argued that following the formation of the Israeli state, there would need to be reforms to Judaism: “We need someone who would do for Judaism what Pope John XXIII has done for the Catholic Church”.[9] Herzl and Buber would continue, in mutual respect and disagreement, to work towards their respective goals for the rest of their lives.”

    What a sad time for Judaism

    • bintbiba
      July 29, 2014, 10:56 am

      seafoid… you just passed a cooling soothing balm over my overheated breaking heart. How many times can a heart break in one lifetime?
      Thank you.

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 10:59 am

        seafoid does that often ;}

        seafoid linked to that a while ago– I’ve saved it and listened to it many times, especially when my heart feels shattered and I need a good cry.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 11:15 am

        Binti

        This one is a favourite of mine for slow/sad times
        link to youtube.com

        Gol Na Mban San Ar- the crying of the women after the slaughter, originally composed during wars in Ireland in the 1590s. Real quality.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 11:45 am

        2 more

        Bás Mrs. Price
        link to bealtuinne.com
        link to youtube.com

        Djivan Gasparyan

        I will not be sad in this world
        link to youtube.com

        This is not just a disaster for Gaza. It is a catastrophe for Judaism.

      • bintbiba
        July 29, 2014, 12:31 pm

        Ana bintak fil rooh ….or rather ‘ukhtak’ . Too old to be your daughter, seafoid. You do come through as a soulmate, somehow.
        Thank you for your lovely offerings. You have a big heart and a beautiful soul.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 2:21 pm

        Bintbiba

        Ukhti fil rooh sounds wonderful. The music does it. It doesn’t matter where it comes from either.

        You must remember 82 in Beirut as well. So much pain. So much suffering , and the Palestinians had nothing to do with World War 2.

        But it’s going to end. Such good people. And Israel is so lost.

      • subconscious
        July 29, 2014, 12:49 pm

        Symphony for Palestine composed by the Iranian-American Kayhan Kalhor.
        Shorter clip: link to youtube.com
        Full performance: link to youtube.com

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 4:00 pm

        WE WILL NOT GO DOWN

        Song Of Hope For The Palestinians In Gaza
        Composed And Perfermed By MICHAEL HEART

        A Blinding Flash Of White Light
        Lit Up The Sky Over Gaza Tonight
        People Running For Cover
        Not Knowing Whether They’re Dead Or Alive

        They Came With Their Tanks And Their Planes
        With Ravaging Fiery Flames
        And Nothing Remains
        Just a Voice Rising Up In The Smoky Haze

        We Will Not Go Down
        In The Night Without a Fight
        You Can Burn Up Our Masques
        And Our Homes And Our Skools
        But Our Spirit Will Never Die
        We Will Not Go Down
        In Gaza Tonight

        Women And Children Alike
        Murdered And Massacred Night After Night
        While The So-Called Leaders Of Countries
        Afair
        Debatet On Who’s Wrong Or Right
        But Their Powerless Words Were In Vain
        And The Bombs Fell
        down Like Acid Rain
        But Through The Tears And The Blood And The Pain
        You Can Still Hear That Voice Through The Smoky Haze

        We Will Not Go Down
        In The Night Without a Fight
        You Can Burn Our Masq ues
        And Our Homes And Our Schools
        But Our Sgirit Will Never Die
        We Will Not Go Down
        In Gaza Tonight

        We Will Not Go Down
        In The Night Without a Fight
        You Can Burn Up Our Masques
        And Our Homes And Skool
        But Our Spirit Never Die

        We Will Not Go Down
        In The Night Without a Fight
        We Will Not Go Down
        In Kashmir Tonight

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 4:17 pm

        here is the link to listen We Will Not Go Down (Gaza) – Michael Heart – OFFICIAL VIDEO link to youtu.be

    • ziusudra
      July 29, 2014, 11:58 am

      Greetings seafoid,
      … reforming Judaism…..
      Very good point, seafoid.
      Judaism & Islam having no central figure & seem unable to make changes.
      Judaism has 5 Sects, 2 orthodox & 1 designated Reform Judaism of the 19th C in Germany.
      Question. Are the 613 Mitzvot, Commandments, still neccessary which began in 536 BC or 456 BC as laws of a tribal Religion in dangerous times & seen as safeguards against annaihilation of the remnents of the last two tribes ?
      ziusudra
      PS Moses only preached the 10 C. which he borrowed from the Egyptians.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 12:54 pm

        “Question. Are the 613 Mitzvot, Commandments, still neccessary which began in 536 BC or 456 BC”

        There’s 613 Mitvot? I thought it was 612!! So there’s one I’m not even aware of? Oh, shit, I am so screwed. It’s not fair, damn it. I work my self into a frazzle following 612 Mitvots, and there turns out to be another one, too?
        So what is No. 613? No, don’t tell me, it’s too late now, I might as well face what I got coming.

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 1:33 pm

        613 is I am hophmi your lord and you do as I say on Shabbat you miserable self hater.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 2:51 pm

        “613 is I am hophmi your lord and you do as I say on Shabbat you miserable self hater”

        Seafoid, be careful not to go too far. Remember what happened last time you put words in somebody else’s mouth? Remember, it was Mehane? And look what happened there!
        Ah, what am I worried about? Hophmi is keeping his head low, he’s out getting evidence of Mondoweiss “causing European Jews to live in fear” by “identifying Zionists as Nazis”. That might take a while.

        Anyway, on Shabat mornings I usually take (by Skype) a jazz organ lesson. I am not one to ignore my religious obligations. That ought to satisfy Hophmi.

      • bintbiba
        July 29, 2014, 8:13 pm

        seafoid, Mooser… thanks for the laughs!!

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2014, 11:03 am

        “Mooser… thanks for the laughs!!”

        That’s funny, that’s what my teacher says at the end of each lesson. I always protest and say; “But I was playing ‘the blues’, which is sad”
        Naturally, my teacher replies: “Funny, you don’t look Blueish!”

    • Kathryn
      July 29, 2014, 4:05 pm

      One of my favourites: Freedom for Palestine – OneWorld link to youtu.be

  24. eGuard
    July 29, 2014, 10:49 am

    Allow me this OT: BDS success in Australia: Shurat HaDin has dropped their lawsuit against Jake Lynch (University of Sydney).
    link to jewishnews.net.au

    Jake Lynch was attacked for refusing to cooperate with a visiting Hebrew Uni professor (academic boycott). First their blanket-accusation against BDS in general was thrown out. And on 21/7 they withdrew their second, more refined accusation against Lynch.
    link to crikey.com.au

    A few days later the VCA Student Association (Melbourne University) took inspiration from this and voted to install an academic and artistic boycott.

    • Sycamores
      July 31, 2014, 1:42 am

      a victory for both Jake Lynch and the BDS.
      i’m been following that story for awhile thanks for the update.

  25. Boomer
    July 29, 2014, 10:53 am

    “When you are part of an election process that asks for a terrorist organization which proclaims in word and in deed that their primary objective is to destroy their neighboring country and not to build schools or commerce or jobs, you are complicit and you are not a civilian casualty.”

    So actually you don’t need to vote for anyone in particular, if you had the opportunity to vote you were “part of an election process.” And indeed, as an American, I did feel guilty, and sickened, as the U.S. launched “Shock and Awe” over Iraq. As I do now reading about the most recent attacks in Gaza . . . attacks with weapons we supplied, by a nation we protect at the U.N.

    I mainly learn about the recent attacks from the internet. I watched NBC and CBS news this morning, but there was very little. On NBC, for example, a report from Israel about anger at Kerry was followed much later by a shorter piece by Engel from Gaza. At least based on this morning’s sample, they seem to be cutting back on their coverage, doing enough to say they covered it, moving on to other issues. I don’t have cable, but wonder if would be worth getting . . . is it any better?

    • Boomer
      July 29, 2014, 1:15 pm

      PS: regarding that report from Israel I saw on NBC this morning, Kate Snow said that the Obama administration was “bending over backwards” to defend Kerry. It was an apt phrase, I thought, an accurate portrayal of Obama’s posture when it comes to Israel . . . though I’m not sure whether she meant to imply what I inferred.

    • Kathryn
      July 29, 2014, 1:53 pm

      Protesters should stood outside the offices of big media corporations calling them out on their biased coverage….they are very vulnerable, both TV and written because they are loosing viewers/readers to the internet, so their revenues are down. If people let them know that their “viewership” ($) is going to be impacted maybe it will have a positive impact!

      I also think protests should take place outside of stores who sell any product being produced by Israel in the Occupied Territories.

    • Boomer
      July 29, 2014, 8:59 pm

      PPS: my perception that U.S. networks seem to be cutting back on the Gaza coverage was reinforced today, when I listened to PRI’s The World on NPR. Marco Werman opened the show by saying words to the effect that events in Gaza were more of the same, so they wouldn’t spend time on it. I understand that radio and TV have limited time, and the other stories they covered were good, but still, it leaves Americans less informed about Gaza. Most of what I learned about it today was from BBC World Service.

      To compounded my frustration about this, my TiVo suggested a documentary about Gaza among the “popular from the web” selections. But when I tried to watch it, I learned that it was from Aljazeera, and not available “in my region.” This happens regularly. But perhaps it is just as well. Seeing more images from Gaza would merely upset me more. I couldn’t do anything.

  26. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 10:55 am

    Amira Hass says this moral collapse will reverberate for decades.
    And John Trudell would speak about the lies they tell themselves and to us

    link to ft.com

    February 14, 2014 6:48 pm

    The story of Israel: ‘My Promised Land’ and ‘Israel: A History’

    By Simon Schama

    “An ‘enthralling, morally dignified’ history of Israel is also a much-needed literary lapel grab
    My Promised Land: The Triumph and Tragedy of Israel, by Ari Shavit, Scribe RRP£20 / Spiegel & Grau RRP$28, 464 pages
    Israel: A History, by Anita Shapira, Weidenfeld & Nicolson RRP£25 / Brandeis RRP$35, 528 pages

    If Ari Shavit is not actually the angel in the minefield he certainly writes like one. Not a page of My Promised Land goes past without a smart provocation – “He wonders about the mysterious bond between Jews and oranges” – or a perfectly focused vision: “The land my great grandfather sees [in 1897] is just as he hoped it would appear: illuminated by the gentle dawn and shrouded by the frail light of promise.” Shavit conducts this orchestration of the senses like a maestro, even when his subject encompasses hatred, slaughter and (less inevitably) taking ecstasy in Tel Aviv. His accomplishment is so unlikely, so total – a history of Israel and Zionism written by an unapologetic and impassioned lover of his country who nonetheless fully registers the disasters inflicted on Palestinians – that it makes you believe anything is possible, even, God help us, peace in the Middle East.

    To those of us Jews whose identity and personal history are locked together with the fate of Israel, much of what Shavit unsparingly records makes bitterly painful reading, which is precisely why his book is not just enthralling, but morally dignified. The insomnia mission – keeping us up at night worrying open the scars that are more easily left untroubled – has been the historian’s obligation ever since Thucydides did a number on Athenian hubris. Our professional honour is preserved by such cold comforts, rather than the toasty pleasures of national self-congratulation. And it is just because Shavit’s pages are so full of unresolved conflicts, personal anguish and humane compassion for both suffering peoples, along with a brilliant gift for capturing the high voltage creative exuberance of an Israel living on the edge, that his book is, by some light years, the best thing to have been written on the subject.
    . . .
    Beginning with its title, which is at the same time spring-loaded with irony yet also innocent of it, Shavit has the rare gift of dual empathy. As you would expect, he conveys the anguish of Jews in the late 1930s and during the war, when they realised they had been abandoned by the rest of the world. That anguish reached its most acute moment in 1942, when at the same time, the killing centres opened for business in Poland and Rommel’s Afrika Korps stood poised to break through to Egypt and Palestine. But at no point does he ever look away from the magnitude of the Palestinian catastrophe. In fact, he seems all the more of an Israeli for being able to think and feel like a Palestinian.
    Shavit is no sentimentalist. He tackles the failings of the peace movement to which he once belonged with as much unsparing scepticism as he brings to the messianic delusions of the settler movement. He shares the view that either Israel ends the occupation or the occupation will end Israel. But he wants to make you understand that the condition of any kind of peace is the effort of alterity that also defines the historian’s vocation: thinking like someone you are not. Shavit is neither a Zionist romantic nor an anti-Zionist self-mortifier in the style of the new (revisionist) history. He just does that supremely difficult thing: telling it like it is – even when clarity brings cruelty along for the ride. His view of Israeli power is Machiavellian, in the sense of unblinking realism, but every page is stamped by decency and a stern respect for the truth.
    It helps that Shavit, whose strong-minded columns have appeared in the liberal-left leaning Israeli newspaper Haaretz since 1995, is one of the most dazzling non-fiction writers alive. He has the eye of a painter. To its young climbers in 1942, the shadow of the desert fortress of Masada falls “like the shadow of a hulking, sunken ship”. Nor does his intellectual seriousness preclude moments of fun: “Although he believed in labour and preached labour, the young Tabenkin [a socialist Zionist from Warsaw] was not very good at labour.” Even if you’ve had it up to here with the Jews and the Arabs, this book will sweep you up in its narrative force and not let go of you until it is done. It is a reminder that if the first obligation of history is self-criticism, the second is philosophically enriched storytelling – and how very rarely this goal is achieved. Most of our histories are too heavily costumed, too charming by half in their invitations to saunter down memory lane. Or else they err in the opposite direction, confusing seriousness with solemnity, getting trapped in the airless conventions of academic writing.
    This, alas, is the case with Anita Shapira’s Israel: A History. Professor at Tel Aviv University and an Israel Prize laureate, Shapira has written what is in many respects an important, exhaustive and richly thoughtful march through the annals of Zionism. But its arguments and stories are hobbled by the ball and chain of grimly formal prose. It is not just a trivial matter of style. History is pointless without connection beyond the academy, and all it has to make that connection with are words chosen to bring the dead to life.


    What Shapira’s history does do, however, is to engage with subjects that are glossed over or missing from Shavit’s vaulting narrative: Zionist institution-building in Mandate Palestine; the against-the-odds victory in the war of 1948-49; Suez and the airlifting of Ethiopian Jews in the 1980s along with the Israeli debate about their identity. There are moments, too, when she supplies crucial context for the unfolding drama, reminding us, for instance, that 1946-48, when the uprooting of Palestinians and Jews in Islamic lands took place, was also the time of immense movements of the helpless and homeless in central and eastern Europe, and in India and Pakistan. Shapira’s book is best used as a gap-plugging aid after reading Shavit. But for all its virtues, it is not a work designed to grab the attention of the intermittently interested non-Jewish passer-by.
    And the present moment is so woefully choked with malignant distortions, mutually screamed polemics, ancient stereotypes and recycled hatreds that we cannot afford to do without the literary lapel grab, a gripping narration grounded in scholarly integrity. To meet that challenge, Shavit has produced a historical narrative pitched to our restless times, and cinematic in its widescreen pathos. The expulsion of the Palestinian population of Lydda in 1948, for instance, is seen through the eyes of the conquering Israeli military governor: “He climbs the tall minaret of the Great Mosque. From the top he watches chaos engulf the town. The people of Lydda grab anything they can: bread, vegetables, dates and figs; sacks of flour, sugar, wheat, and barley; silverware, copperware, jewelery; blankets, mattresses. They carry suitcases bursting at the seams, improvised packs made from sheets and pillowcases . . . the procession gathers into a long biblical-looking column.”
    Defying the conventions of the Olympian, impersonal narrator, Shavit forthrightly puts himself inside the action even when it occurs before he was born. He freeze-frames his great-grandfather, Herbert Bentwich, momentously poised to disembark at Jaffa from his ship in 1897, to ask whether it would have been better for everyone had he not? He agonises over whether facing the truth of the massacre and exodus from Lydda means he must abandon Zionism and decides not: “I’ll stand by the damned. Because I know if it wasn’t for them, the State of Israel would not have been born. They did the dirty, filthy work that enables my people, myself, my daughter and my sons to live.” If this sounds too artful for its own good, it isn’t. It is simply a modernised version of the philosopher RG Collingwood’s appeal to make history an “imaginative re-enactment” – without the slightest trace of fiction.
    My Promised Land is constructed as a chain of linked, exemplary episodes, each one set in a particular landscape, distilling the ethos of a moment in the torn-up history of Palestine and Israel. The pioneering of the kibbutz in the 1920s is set in Ein Harod in the Jezreel Valley, where “the blades of the sun catch the blades of the ploughs as they turn the valley’s soil, penetrating the crust of the ancient valley’s deep earth. And as the ploughs begin to do their work, the Jews return to history and regain their masculinity.” The burgeoning enterprise of the 1930s happens in the orange groves of Rehovot, Shavit’s own town, where the day-to-day working relationship between Arabs and Jews is smashed by the mutual murders of 1936. The Israel of Holocaust survivors is embodied in a housing estate built in 1957, where Shmuel Gogol tries to tell the young about his time playing harmonica with his eyes shut in the Auschwitz death orchestra. “But the children . . . want to leave their fathers’ nightmares and their mothers’ migraines behind. They want to play volleyball, basketball, soccer, go to the scouts and have parties.”
    At two ends of the psychospectrum, Shavit draws on his own traumatic memory bank in an interrogation prison in Gaza: “fifty yards from the showers where I try to rinse off the day’s dust and sweat, people scream. Eighty yards from where I try to eat, people scream”; and at the other, in 2000, he escapes all that pain into orgiastic hedonism, following a troupe of dawn revellers, driving from Club Allenby 58 in Tel Aviv to Jerusalem “smiling and red-eyed and dressed like vampires or satanic demons carrying pitchforks”.
    . . .
    The jump-cuts of Shavit’s narration inevitably mean breathtaking omissions from the Zionist canon, all of which it’s clear he mischievously enjoys. So there is little mention of Chaim Weizmann, the Zionist leader, except one reference to the building of his house in Rehovot; two brief drive-bys past Vladimir Jabotinsky, the patriarch from whom the hard nationalist Likud political tradition descends. Instead of an account of the 1956 Suez campaign, Shavit stages a talk with Avner Cohen, the senior heavy-water carrier when Dimona was beginning to go nuclear. And instead of some generalised treatment of the challenge of Sephardi religion and politics to the Ashkenazi establishment he delivers a revelatory chapter on the charismatic fallen hero of the non-European Israelis, Aryeh Deri. Shavit sums up that deep cultural schism by commenting that the Israel designed for one kind of Jews (European in origin) became populated by another people entirely (the Moroccans, Yemenis, Indians, Ethiopians).
    Knowledgeable readers will have their chicken bones to pick. Shavit’s great-grandfather Bentwich appears ex nihilo, without any of the story of Victorian philo-Semitism (one part moral hydraulics, the other part Bible evangelism). Perhaps Shavit might have economised on the throbbing gristle of the club scene in Tel Aviv to give us instead a bit more about the calamity of the Lebanon war. And given the subject, we can guarantee that hardliners and boycotters in both the Israeli and Palestinian camps will find something to complain about, which in turn will mean Shavit has acquitted himself well. But with any luck all readers of this scrupulously just, wisely impassioned book – Jews, Muslims and everyone else – with their prejudices shaken loose by the truth will be prepared to share just a small piece of the modest optimism with which the book ends: Shavit’s children running towards him on the quayside of Tel Aviv port.

    Israel may be a fortress in a storm-racked sea of Arab chaos but Shavit knows that it is not impregnable. The Iranian threat is real; and the slaughters engulfing the Arab world make it likelier that the threats to Israel will come from loose cannons, lethally armed, than from any war of states. On the Israeli side, Shavit thinks the election of 2013 did bring about authentically new politics. Whether or not that is true, he is committed to a redefinition of his nation, “a new Jewish Israeli narrative”. If that does come to pass, Ari Shavit will be recognised as having written its inaugural text.”

    • Donald
      July 29, 2014, 11:36 am

      “In fact, he seems all the more of an Israeli for being able to think and feel like a Palestinian.”

      Never was there a people like them, who could ethnically cleanse a people and savor the multiple ironies at play, weeping all the while, empathizing with their victims as they sip wine and march in gay rights parades. Those guys could empathize the socks off you–no, wait, that was probably an explosion from an air strike.

      • Mooser
        July 29, 2014, 1:00 pm

        “Never was there a people like them,”

        Now you’ve done it! The “don’t single us out” brigade is gonna come down on us like a ton of bricks. Remember that phrase, you’ll be hearing a lot of it. I’ve noticed a fair number of new commentors on blogs I read, saying they are all for criticizing (or “have a debate over) Israel, “but don’t feel they should be singled out”.

      • John O
        July 29, 2014, 1:53 pm

        Ach, we’ve been here before. Here’s Lewis Carroll from “Through the Looking-Glass:

        The Walrus and the Carpenter

        “The sun was shining on the sea,
        Shining with all his might:
        He did his very best to make
        The billows smooth and bright —
        And this was odd, because it was
        The middle of the night.

        The moon was shining sulkily,
        Because she thought the sun
        Had got no business to be there
        After the day was done —
        “It’s very rude of him,” she said,
        “To come and spoil the fun.”

        The sea was wet as wet could be,
        The sands were dry as dry.
        You could not see a cloud, because
        No cloud was in the sky:
        No birds were flying overhead —
        There were no birds to fly.

        The Walrus and the Carpenter
        Were walking close at hand;
        They wept like anything to see
        Such quantities of sand:
        If this were only cleared away,’
        They said, it would be grand!’

        If seven maids with seven mops
        Swept it for half a year,
        Do you suppose,’ the Walrus said,
        That they could get it clear?’
        I doubt it,’ said the Carpenter,
        And shed a bitter tear.

        O Oysters, come and walk with us!’
        The Walrus did beseech.
        A pleasant walk, a pleasant talk,
        Along the briny beach:
        We cannot do with more than four,
        To give a hand to each.’

        The eldest Oyster looked at him,
        But never a word he said:
        The eldest Oyster winked his eye,
        And shook his heavy head —
        Meaning to say he did not choose
        To leave the oyster-bed.

        But four young Oysters hurried up,
        All eager for the treat:
        Their coats were brushed, their faces washed,
        Their shoes were clean and neat —
        And this was odd, because, you know,
        They hadn’t any feet.

        Four other Oysters followed them,
        And yet another four;
        And thick and fast they came at last,
        And more, and more, and more —
        All hopping through the frothy waves,
        And scrambling to the shore.

        The Walrus and the Carpenter
        Walked on a mile or so,
        And then they rested on a rock
        Conveniently low:
        And all the little Oysters stood
        And waited in a row.

        The time has come,’ the Walrus said,
        To talk of many things:
        Of shoes — and ships — and sealing-wax —
        Of cabbages — and kings —
        And why the sea is boiling hot —
        And whether pigs have wings.’

        But wait a bit,’ the Oysters cried,
        Before we have our chat;
        For some of us are out of breath,
        And all of us are fat!’
        No hurry!’ said the Carpenter.
        They thanked him much for that.

        A loaf of bread,’ the Walrus said,
        Is what we chiefly need:
        Pepper and vinegar besides
        Are very good indeed —
        Now if you’re ready, Oysters dear,
        We can begin to feed.’

        But not on us!’ the Oysters cried,
        Turning a little blue.
        After such kindness, that would be
        A dismal thing to do!’
        The night is fine,’ the Walrus said.
        Do you admire the view?

        It was so kind of you to come!
        And you are very nice!’
        The Carpenter said nothing but
        Cut us another slice:
        I wish you were not quite so deaf —
        I’ve had to ask you twice!’

        It seems a shame,’ the Walrus said,
        To play them such a trick,
        After we’ve brought them out so far,
        And made them trot so quick!’
        The Carpenter said nothing but
        The butter’s spread too thick!’

        I weep for you,’ the Walrus said:
        I deeply sympathize.’
        With sobs and tears he sorted out
        Those of the largest size,
        Holding his pocket-handkerchief
        Before his streaming eyes.

        O Oysters,’ said the Carpenter,
        You’ve had a pleasant run!
        Shall we be trotting home again?’
        But answer came there none —
        And this was scarcely odd, because
        They’d eaten every one.”

    • Kathryn
      July 29, 2014, 2:02 pm

      “To its young climbers in 1942, the shadow of the desert fortress of Masada falls “like the shadow of a hulking, sunken ship”. ”

      He must know that newly conscripted Israeli soldiers are often bused to Masada, the desert mountain fortress where ancient Jews committed mass suicide to avoid subjugation by the Romans, to pledge that the fortress must never fall again. link to mosaic.lk.net

      And yet listen to the hate spewed against Palestinians who are dying for the same reason only this time against subjugation by the Israeli’s!

      • Annie Robbins
        July 29, 2014, 9:32 pm

        good point

      • Citizen
        July 30, 2014, 3:11 am

        some are oysters, some are walrus or carpenter

  27. just
    July 29, 2014, 11:03 am

    2 UN workers murdered by Israel, apparently they were brothers acc. to Ayman “in the wrong place at the wrong time”.

  28. Kay24
    July 29, 2014, 11:04 am

    Kerry on Ukraine suggests more sanctions….strange that word never comes up when it comes to Israel, even now when they are conducting a massacre in Gaza.

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 11:42 am

      Looks like Belgium is doing what the entire world should. Israel should be hit where it will hurt most – it’s economy.

      “REUTERS – Belgium advised retailers on Tuesday to clearly label the origin of products made in Israeli settlements that are in occupied territories where Palestinians seek statehood.

      The non-binding recommendation has nothing to do with escalating conflict between Israel and Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip, the Belgian Economics Ministry said, noting that Britain and Denmark already had similar labelling in place.

      “It’s a non-binding advice to state on labels that products originating from occupied territories come from there,” a ministry spokeswoman said. “We don’t see this as a sanction against Israel, but EU rules stipulate that consumers have to be informed of the origins of products.”

      The ministry planned to send a letter to retail federations on Tuesday recommending the use of such labels. Belgian retail federation Comeos and the Israeli Embassy in Brussels said they would not comment before the letter was issued.”

      BDS the only way to rein in these out of control zionists.

      • Tuyzentfloot
        July 29, 2014, 12:26 pm

        Belgium is asking politely to label the goods but it doesn’t insist. At the same time it says don’t blame us blame the EU . It’s cowardly and weak, but it does make boycotting more userfriendly.

        Mind you, as I have posted on here previously, I found that the Sodastream device sold in belgian supermarkets currently doesn’t even have the country of origin on it .

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 1:02 pm

        They (the occupiers) will get around it in the most devious methods, re-labeling products as if it was made elsewhere. Someone even said that Dates that come from Israel is falsely labelled as if to show it came from elsewhere.
        Which mean they are profiting from those they despise, like Arabs and Muslims, who naively buy them around the world.

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 1:51 pm

        Also let’s say good job to the South Asia Diaspora Network in Canada, for their efforts:

        link to electronicintifada.net

        More please.

      • Shingo
        July 29, 2014, 6:03 pm

        Belgium is asking politely to label the goods but it doesn’t insist

        While that might sound inadequate, it’s not as bad as it sounds. I suspect the public is much more critical of Israel than the political leaders are willing to express.

        The public will take the lead and demand it. This gives them the ability to do so.

      • amigo
        July 29, 2014, 3:17 pm

        Kay 24, here is some more good news from Ireland.

        This morning I went to my local convenience store (Centra) with the intention of asking them to not carry any Israeli goods.

        They told me they had received an E.mail yesterday from head office advising their franchise owners that they (Musgrave) would no longer provide goods from Israel.A pleasant surprise.

        “Centra is a convenience store chain in Ireland.

        “The chain is run by Musgrave, the Irish food wholesaler, however the stores are all owned by individual franchisees. The chain has three different formats available to franchisees — smaller Quick Stop outlets, mid-sized Foodmarkets, and larger Supermarkets. The majority of the stores however follow the Quick Stop format (or are simply branded Centra), as Musgrave also offers the SuperValu format, which is geared towards larger supermarkets. There are currently around 458 Centra stores in the Republic of Ireland and 120 in Northern Ireland. In 2002, Centra’s turnover was €652.6 million.”wiki.

        I just wonder what their annual take is 12 years later.

        this just another example of how BDS is working and growing , thanks to Israels criminal actions.

        Suck on that Israel.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

    • Stephen Shenfield
      July 29, 2014, 2:15 pm

      In southeast Ukraine it is mainly the government forces, backed by the US, that are tormenting innocent civilians on a scale similar to Israel’s war on Gaza (over 1150 civilians killed so far, 100,000 or so refugees). Kerry is advocating sanctions against another country that is helping the anti-government side (the so-called “pro-Russian rebels”). It’s the equivalent of demanding sanctions against Iran for helping Hamas. No inconsistency whatsoever! Always back the perpetrators, not the victims.

    • mijj
      July 29, 2014, 8:10 pm

      i’m pretty sure Kerry would have been happy to accuse Russia of causng the problems poor Israel is hving with Gaza. It would have been a great reason to pile further sanctions on Russia.

      Pity about the timing, tho. Wouldn’t have needed to arrange the MH17 event if the timing was right.

  29. Donald
    July 29, 2014, 11:19 am

    People have made most of the points I would have made, but here’s one not made yet, I don’t think.

    What if a prominent Presbyterian minister and supporter of divestment had said during the debates that any Likud voter or any supporter of the settlements or any civilian supporter of Israel’s tactics in wartime was a legitimate target for Hamas terrorism? Would that statement have received some media attention? Somehow I think it would. There would be an immense outcry and the BDS movement itself would have been condemned from coast to coast by editorialists pontificating on the dangers of antisemitism in our society, and how support for the Palestinian cause was deeply tainted by it.

    So here’s a litmus test for the press. If they don’t pick up on this story, if this rabbi doesn’t become the center of a media firestorm of condemnation, then what does that tell you? It tells you that a rabbi who advocates for genocide gets a free pass. I don’t use the term “genocide” much in this conflict, but it is the logical end result of his thinking.

  30. just
    July 29, 2014, 11:26 am

    My thoughts about Shavit are unprintable right now.

    • seafoid
      July 29, 2014, 11:51 am

      The mask is off. He would have been at home on Radio Milles Collines
      link to rwandanstories.org

      link to haaretz.com

      “But over the weekend, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry ruined everything. Very senior officials in Jerusalem described the proposal that Kerry put on the table as a “strategic terrorist attack.” His decision to go hand in hand with Qatar and Turkey, and formulate a framework amazingly similar to the Hamas framework, was catastrophic. It put wind in the sails of Hamas’ political leader Khaled Meshal, allowed the Hamas extremists to overcome the Hamas moderates, and gave renewed life to the weakened regional alliance of the Muslim Brotherhood.
      The Obama administration proved once again that it is the best friend of its enemies, and the biggest enemy of its friends. The man of peace from Massachusetts intercepted with his own hands the reasonable cease-fire that was within reach, and pushed both the Palestinians and Israelis toward an escalation that most of them did not want.
      So that is why everything now hangs in the balance. Hamas is exhausted, but fanning the flames time after time. Israel is showing restraint time after time. Netanyahu and Ya’alon are still managing a battle against those who may very well entangle Israel in a real war. But the way Kerry played into the hands of Turkey and Qatar, and the extremist Palestinians and Israelis, has created a situation that is still quite dangerous.
      If Israel is forced to ultimately undertake an expanded ground operation in which dozens of young Israelis and hundreds of Palestinian civilians could lose their lives, it would be appropriate to name the offensive after the person who caused it: John Kerry. But if the escalation does not happen, instead we should remember that those who prevented it are three people the Obama administration loathes: Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi, Benjamin Netanyahu and Moshe Ya’alon. “

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 12:04 pm

        Shavit’s words made the WH fuming mad acc. to Chris Jansing. Not fuming mad enough, imho.

        He made so many horrible allegations and wrote so many lies. He’s a supporter of state- sponsored Israeli terrorism. I have to say that I started trembling with anger when I read this:

        “Israel is showing restraint time after time. ”

        Kerry on tv right now responding to Israeli bs with Andrea Mitchell…..come on tell the honest truth, please!

        personal and open antipathy between the Israeli and US government– acc to Martin Fletcher: ‘very dangerous for Israel’

      • Abierno
        July 29, 2014, 2:02 pm

        Correction: “But if the escalation does not happen, instead we should remember that those who prevented it are three people the Obama administration loathes (?): Abdel-Fattah al-Sissi, Benjamin Netanyahu and Prince Bandar Bin Sultan. ” (RobertB – Mondoweiss – Israel, Saudi Arabia and Egypt: Daily Contact Over Gaza)

      • James Canning
        July 29, 2014, 2:06 pm

        Dennis Ross is a pal of Netanyahu’s. Obama continues to consult with Ross.

      • Citizen
        July 30, 2014, 3:21 am

        Obama learned where the power was hidden when he was a community organizer in Chicago. Penny P, Penny P

  31. scott9854958
    July 29, 2014, 11:51 am

    Those damned schoolchildren at the UNRWA playground. They must have voted for Hamas. Their just desserts!

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 12:05 pm

      Notice they blame everybody else, from the murdered victims, to Kerry, to the Palestinians and anyone under the sun, for their disgusting war crimes and brutality.
      With these Israeli zionists, it is never their fault – yet it is them who wields the power and the BIG guns.

      • Citizen
        July 30, 2014, 3:22 am

        Average age in Gaza: 17
        So how old is Sheldon Adelson?

  32. Sycamores
    July 29, 2014, 11:54 am

    the latest zionist supremacist meme is “let me make it clear” which can be loosely translated for the rest of us into “believe my lie”.

    • lysias
      July 29, 2014, 1:36 pm

      Nixon kept saying, “Let me make this crystal clear.”

      They taught us in law school never to write “clearly” or “obviously,” as any use of those words suggested doubt about the truth of what was said to be clear or obvious.

      • Sycamores
        July 29, 2014, 11:09 pm

        let me be clear we went into Gaza because of Hamas Rockets oops! sorry i meant terror tunnels

    • ritzl
      July 30, 2014, 7:01 pm

      I never trust anyone who insists that I trust them.

  33. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 12:01 pm

    Bennett and Schumer are on the same page

    link to haaretz.com

    “Economy Minister Naftali Bennett lashed out at Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday over the latter’s stated policy regarding the goals of the war in Gaza.
    In a statement to the press, Bennett publicly countered Netanyahu’s declarations of demolishing Hamas’ terror tunnels as the primary goal of the operation – saying that it was the “defeat of Hamas” that Israel should consider as the ultimate target of the war.
    Bennett nevertheless said that he did not support a full reoccupation of the Gaza Strip. Israel must operate in order to “forcefully root out Hamas’ faith in its ability to win.”
    “The tunnels are not the root of this problem,” Bennett. “They are strategic avenues for destroying Hamas. What needs to be done? A target must be marked: the demilitarization of Gaza, as in Judea and Samaria [West Bank]. No missiles, no tunnels. The IDF must be given a clear task: Make that happen.”
    Bennet emphasized that the cabinet must instruct the IDF not relax or stop until this goal has been achieved – whether by force or by agreement. Israel need not answer positively to all requests for humanitarian cease-fires, he added. “Hit Hamas without mercy,” Bennett said. “Day and night. On weekdays and holidays. Without respite and without rest. Until they are defeated.” ”

    His Blitzer interview is a real keeper.

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 12:17 pm

      Now that the HRW spokesperson has informed the world that this seemed a deliberate act of murder on four little kids, and that it used a missile with a camera, that shows they knew where their stinking missile would go, you realize when watch this charade by Bennett, and his lame insistence that they do not deliberately target children, you know he is a shameless liar, and it is obvious he is blaming these deaths on “Khamas”. He looks and sounds like he is a nazi.

      • just
        July 29, 2014, 12:23 pm

        I think that we who advocate for Palestinians’ rights need to make this A BIG PART OF THE STORY– it’s obviously been buried for 2 weeks and the American people must see the truth about this lie and the many others that too many swallow without a hiccup.

        And don’t even give a whiff of credence to their “fog of war” defense.

      • Kay24
        July 29, 2014, 1:05 pm

        If there was an official video or document by HRW disputing these lies and showing a high ranking Israeli official, like so many others attack the other side while being guilty of crimes, perhaps Phil, Alex, or Annie, can put that and this Bennett interview and write up an article about it. Suggestion.

      • MHughes976
        July 29, 2014, 12:34 pm

        They direct the missiles to do the maximum ‘desired damage’ of which they are capable, not relenting even when it is certain that the actual damage will include the deaths of children. They may or may not specifically desire those deaths but they accept the risk, even at the level of certainty: so there is no question of immunity simply on the ground of being helplessly non-combatant, even ‘innocent’.
        Hamas does the same, I think, except that they know that they will inflict very little in the way of actual damage, desired or not. However, they are prepared to place the lives of tourists arriving by plane, including ‘innocents’, in at least a small degree of danger.
        The principle of non-combatant immunity has gone. Is there any possibility of saving the principle of proportionality? If that principle is totally abandoned then fire and sword, even nuclear fire and sword, are wholly within our moral repertoire.

      • Abierno
        July 29, 2014, 2:10 pm

        For Naftali Bennett, and his right hand helper, Ayelet Shayet, all Gazans –
        children included (the little snakes), are Hamas and therefore right and proper targets for the IDF and IAF. In assessing the situation, it is important to remember the dictates of the Kings Torah, which are regularly being promulgated to the troops. For the unknowing, this is holy war for Israel and thus all atrocities are permitted, so long the targets can be embraced under the umbrella of Hamas/terrorist. We are privileged to be seeing the Dahiya doctrine in action. And non dare call it genocide . . .

      • seafoid
        July 29, 2014, 2:23 pm

        “The principle of non-combatant immunity has gone. Is there any possibility of saving the principle of proportionality? ”

        The big question. I hate Zionism above all for that. Yad Vashem is such hypocrisy when international law and the laws of warfare are torn to shreds for the sake of 5 million people.

      • Kathryn
        July 29, 2014, 2:47 pm

        He used the “tunnels” talking again:

        The tunnels that Israel has somehow managed to use as a pretext for the current invasion of Gaza ex post facto, are another product of Israel’s skewed logic. When Israel banned the import of basic items into Gaza, including cement, irrigation pipes, tar, plaster, A4 paper and even chocolate, and attempted to reduce the flow of goods to a”humanitarian minimum” in order to put Palestinians “on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,” they also created the conditions necessary for such desperate attempts at reaching the outside world.

        It was only after the blockade in 2007 that the makeshift system of tunnels was transformed into a major commercial enterprise. As Nicholas Pelham notes, the tunnels, became a “key driver of upward mobility and social change, empowering previously marginalized groups….” link to palestine-studies.org

        John Holmes, the United Nations under secretary general for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, remarked in 2010 that “the situation without the tunnels would be completely unsustainable.” It is fair to assume, then, that the existence of the tunnels, first discovered by Israel in 1983, are predicated upon Israel’s perpetual occupation of Gaza. link to thenational.ae

        He also, of course, failed to mention that Hamas used monies to build hospitals, rebuild infrastructure etc that was destroyed in the last Israeli bombardment!

    • Chu
      July 29, 2014, 2:10 pm

      When Naftali becomes prime minister, I wonder how many standing ovations the US Congress will give him when he comes to Washington D.C.?

  34. just
    July 29, 2014, 12:11 pm

    Dermer: In Israel we have a real country and a real government… among all kinds of other caca.

    He shows diagram of Hamas rockets doing all of the damage yesterday… he sure is Netanyahu’s boy.

    (now on to Kerry’s suggestion that Israel is ‘creating mischief’) blah, blah, blah

    • Kay24
      July 29, 2014, 12:19 pm

      Dermer is doing a bad job representing the rogue state. It was wonderful to see him totally squashed when Karl Penhaul disputed his, and Oren’s crap, about media bias and when they made a feeble attempt to stop the pictures of massacred little babies, being shown on CNN. Nicely done, Karl.

  35. kalithea
    July 29, 2014, 12:20 pm

    So there were 10,000 Jews at that pro-Israel rally, and only at most a few hundred at the protest for Gaza. Here’s the problem: for every Jew with empathy for the suffering of Palestinians and especially with conviction that Zionism is the source of the suffering; there are 100 Jews who embrace Zionism and care less regarding the pain it causes others. For every ten there are 1000 who care less and so on.

    Sure there is a small middle overlap somewhere in there – but they’re the liberal Zionists who although they have sympathy for the Palestinians can’t see or refuse to see that Zionism is the source of all the pain and evil and therefore help to prolong it.

  36. oldgeezer
    July 29, 2014, 12:53 pm

    Wow…. Such hatred. He’s probably a good man on many levels but his loyalty seems to have blinded him.

    He redefines civilians as combatants then removes from them even the dignity of being collateral. A huge cheer from the crowd., followed by saying no one here today celebrates the deaths of innocents.

    The Israeli youth were kidnapped and murdered. The Palestinian youth merely killed. Not kidnapped, tortured and murdered.

  37. Kathryn
    July 29, 2014, 1:02 pm

    For anyone interested and if you want to participate in the protests against Israeli massacre in Gaza, here is the international list of protests taking place: link to samidoun.ca

    They also want to be able to publicise any protests that are not on the list, so if you know of a local protest please add it!

  38. kalithea
    July 29, 2014, 1:20 pm

    Karl Penhaul at CNN had a video report where he put his hand through a hole in a car and stated: Just look at the hole this shrapnel has blasted in this car door imagine the damage that that would do to a child’s body.

    We don’t have to imagine, there is ample proof and if you go to Desertpeace, you’ll see exactly what it did to a particular small child; it blew away half his/her head.

    I’ll add the link. It is so shocking I can’t view it ever again, but this is what needs to be presented to a war crimes tribunal.

    It’s under the headline: Photo of Gazan terrorist bombed by Israel.

    link to desertpeace.wordpress.com

    This and a photo of Mohammed Abu Khdeir’s desecrated body are what needs to be circulated attached to Aipac’s next suggested policy letter to Congress!

    The Israelis latest move was to bomb fuel for the main generator that cuts electricity and stops water pumps from functioning. This is punishing for the entire population of Gaza already undergoing unconceivable suffering.

    In a U.N. not corrupted by a U.S. tyrannical veto; severe sanctions would be imposed on Israel just for these crimes, both of which are due to deception from Israel’s leadership and a direct result of Zionism’s influence.

    SANCTION ISRAEL AND END THIS GENOCIDAL MASSACRE

  39. seafoid
    July 29, 2014, 1:32 pm

    “If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you”

    And the answer to that is

    link to youtube.com

    nobody wins by adopting fascism

  40. Kathryn
    July 29, 2014, 1:40 pm

    In 2010 Archbishop Theodosius Hanna (Orthodox Church of Jerusalem), on a visit to Ireland, told politicians: “The problem in Palestine has nothing to do with religion – it is not a religious issue. It is not a conflict of Christians, Muslims and Jewish people. It is a conflict between those who are the holders of a rightful cause and those who took away that right by military might.”

  41. James Canning
    July 29, 2014, 1:47 pm

    David Seth-Kirshner is an idiot. If he actually thinks a vote for Hamas should be taken by Israel as a death sentence for the voter.

  42. concernedhuman
    July 29, 2014, 2:03 pm

    It does make more sense .
    From the reports/images coming out of gaza, its pretty obvious that israel is already putting it in to practice on the ground

    isreal has bombed neighborhoods/homes erasing families .
    israel has destroyed water infrastructure.
    Israel destroyed power stations.
    Most of the people dead are civilians,women and children.
    It more looks like every thing living is now an enemy .

  43. Kathryn
    July 29, 2014, 2:29 pm

    “The oppressed becomes the oppressor, the culprit becomes the victim, occupation is security, illegal colonization is cultural liberation, aggressive expansion is righteous reclamation, genocide is self-defence, apartheid is justice, resistance is terrorism, and ethnic cleansing is peace.” ~Nima Sirazi

  44. Palikari
    July 29, 2014, 3:03 pm

    Don’t manipulate his words!

    He didn’t say that Hamas voters should be killed. He just said that if you support a terrorist organization, you’re not an innocent civilian, but complicit.

    He’s right.

    • Shingo
      July 29, 2014, 9:46 pm

      He just said that if you support a terrorist organization, you’re not an innocent civilian, but complicit.

      In which case, all Israelis who voted for Likud/Home are complicit in genocide.

      • oldgeezer
        July 29, 2014, 10:27 pm

        No you don’t need to vote for them, you just need to support them. So Palikari is prepared to accept that almost all Israelis (old age…dont’ remenber the % that are pleased) are complicit and can’t be considered civilian casualties.

        Fire away.

        His position is devoid of logic or morality. It is not even a half step away from legitimizing capital punishment for thought crimes.

        Civilians are civilians. End of.

      • Mooser
        July 30, 2014, 7:54 pm

        Notice, Shingo, that a new type of culpability has emerged for the Palestinians. It’s called “complicity” and they’ve all got it, and the penalty is death.
        Gosh, I’ve never heard of a legal state called “complicity” which occupied people must avoid. Do you know any of the laws related to “complicity” with resistance in an occupied territory?

        But I do admit, “complicity” must be an awful thing, it being such a suggestive word.

      • Shingo
        July 30, 2014, 8:02 pm

        But I do admit, “complicity” must be an awful thing, it being such a suggestive word.

        And then here are the babies born from the complicit, so pretty soon we ‘ll have complicity by DNA.

      • RoHa
        July 30, 2014, 9:24 pm

        Mooser, I’m really worried about this complicity. How can I avoid being complicit? Do I have to wear something unmentionable on my (ahem) “person” when I, … er, …? Or will that not suffice?

        We really should be told.

      • RoHa
        July 30, 2014, 9:55 pm

        There are actually some serious questions here.

        Are there differing levels of complicity?
        What level and type of support counts as culpable complicity?
        If the leader of an organization supports the crime, are dissenting members morally obliged to make their dissent explicit and public in order to avoid actual complicity?
        Are we justified in assuming or even suspecting complicity if the dissenting members do not publicly declare their dissent?

        Perhaps it is just easier to bomb everyone rather than try to sort it all out.

    • eljay
      July 30, 2014, 8:03 pm

      >> Palikareee: He didn’t say that Hamas voters should be killed. He just said that if you support a terrorist organization, you’re not an innocent civilian, but complicit.

      1. If there’s no punishment for complicity, why mention it at all?
      2. Do non-Jews also get to define what is a “terrorist organization” and what constitutes “support”?

    • Hostage
      July 31, 2014, 3:03 am

      He just said that if you support a terrorist organization, you’re not an innocent civilian, but complicit.

      He’s right.

      No, he’s not correct. By definition the term “complicit” describes involvement with others in an illegal activity or wrongdoing.

      In this case the Coalition for Change and Reform was assisted by the United States and the European Union, who intervened in a remarkably frank and direct fashion to demand Palestinian political reform and an end to authoritarian rule. With international backing, including support from Israel, the reform movement began to effect some significant changes in constitutional structure and fiscal transparency. In 2006, a professional body, the Central Elections Commission, operating with international technical assistance and political protection, oversaw a national election in which, for the first time in Arab history, a deeply entrenched party was repudiated by the voters. And the victor was a reform-oriented list called Change and Reform that had made corruption and abuse of power the focus of its campaign. If the fact that it was sponsored by Hamas and other Palestinian groups was illegal, then the government of Israel was complicit every step along the way. Israel was instrumental in founding the Hamas organization in the first instance (to oppose Fatah and the PLO) and in establishing the Palestinian Legislative Council, in cooperation with the PLO. That was done in accordance with the State of Israel’s “Oslo Accords”. link to carnegieendowment.org

      The Palestinian voters were exercising an unqualified legal right to participate in the democratic Palestinian Parliamentary Elections of 2006, which was not an illegal or wrongful act.

  45. Abdul-Rahman
    July 29, 2014, 3:17 pm

    Terrorist supporters out cheerleading for the terroristic Tel Aviv regime. The one thing that caught my eye, was the repeating of that old Zionist propaganda on the Gaza “disengagement”. I’m sure we all still here a bunch of that “we ‘withdrew’ and got nothing but rockets in return!” Of course Zionist propagandists here are using this specific lie and myth to both try to “excuse” their murderous assaults and siege on Gaza and also say try to ensconce the always expanding illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.

    Too bad for these Zionist hasbara spewers that Sharon’s old colleague Dov Weisglass let the real facts of the Gaza “disengagement” plan and its’ actual aims out of the bag back when that event was transpiring.

    link to richardsilverstein.com

    As the news quoted from Weisglass himself:

    “‘The disengagement is actually formaldehyde,’ he said. ‘It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.'”

    Another very important and thorough link from back in that period itself:

    link to palsolidarity.org

    And of course most of the illegal Zionist settlers that were in Gaza (after raping its’ people and resources) simply were paid large sums of money, in the end supplied by US taxpayers, to move to new expanded illegal settlements in the West Bank and Golan Heights.

  46. michelle
    July 29, 2014, 3:22 pm

    .
    the last power plant was hit again
    it will not be running again any time soon
    no power for health care no water
    .
    the aid ship from Turkey can’t be
    big enough or guarded well enough
    Gaza needes more aid ship with ample guards
    .
    it would be good if the world forced the water ways open
    a convoy of aid from all their friends and supporters
    a hospital ship would be quite useful
    .
    these people are drowning in their own blood
    is there a kick start account to fund help for Gaza
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  47. Abdul-Rahman
    July 29, 2014, 3:24 pm

    link to electronicintifada.net

    “Israel’s incremental genocide in the Gaza ghetto” by Ilan Pappe

    • piotr
      July 29, 2014, 10:25 pm

      Indeed, it looked incremental two weeks ago. I would still call it “mass slaughter” rather than “genocide”, but “incremental” sounds too anodyne now.

  48. ThorsteinVeblen2012
    July 29, 2014, 3:37 pm

    Let me add to the list of ironies:

    He’s giving this speech supporting Israel here in the safety of the United States.

  49. Misterioso
    July 29, 2014, 3:46 pm

    Prophetic words by renowned American Jew, Senator Henry Morgenthau Sr., former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey, 1919: “Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history….The very fervour of my feeling for the oppressed of every race and every land, especially for the Jews, those of my own blood and faith, to whom I am bound by every tender tie, impels me to fight with all the greater force against this scheme, which my intelligence tells me can only lead them deeper into the mire of the past, while it professes to be leading them to the heights. Zionism is… a retrogression into the blackest error, and not progress toward the light.”

    • just
      July 29, 2014, 10:22 pm

      Thanks for reminding me, Misterioso.

    • Mooser
      July 30, 2014, 11:10 am

      ” “Zionism is the most stupendous fallacy in Jewish history….The very fervour of my feeling for the oppressed of every race and every land, especially for the Jews, those of my own blood and faith, to whom I am bound by every tender tie, impels me to fight with all the greater force against this scheme, which my intelligence tells me can only lead them deeper into the mire of the past, while it professes to be leading them to the heights. Zionism is… a retrogression into the blackest error, and not progress toward the light.””

      I’d carve that in stone, it’s too long for skywriting.

    • Boomer
      July 30, 2014, 11:49 am

      Thanks for the prescient, eloquent quotation from Senator Morgenthau.

  50. Misterioso
    July 29, 2014, 3:49 pm

    link to theguardian.com

    The Guardian – 21 July 2014

    In a hospital. At the beach. Hamas, Israel tells us, is hiding among civilians

    According to Israel, Hamas is cowardly and cynical

    Richard Seymour

    Two Palestinian girls run past a damaged ambulance in Gaza on Sunday. Photograph: Oliver Weiken/EPA

    They hid at the El-Wafa hospital

    They hid at the Al-Aqsa hospital.

    They hid at the beach, where children played football.

    They hid at the yard of 75-year-old Muhammad Hamad…….con’t..

  51. NoMoreIsrael
    July 29, 2014, 4:14 pm

    10,000 “people” show up to applaud the massacre of children. A handful will protest.

    This is our world, or at least, the United States—a septic tank disguised as a country.

  52. amigo
    July 29, 2014, 4:50 pm

    British MP !!

    If you voted for Sinn Fein , Britain has a right to kill you.

    No problem for the so called holy Rabbi, eh.

  53. traintosiberia
    July 29, 2014, 7:02 pm

    From his arguments,it follows that Rabbi is a legal target by Hamas . He supports,nurtures,and promotes a vicious military outfit
    That is Known for engaging to illegal slaughter,killings,kidnap pings,and committing racial clean sings.
    Rabbi is not being forced. Despite overwhelming condemnation and outrage from across the world ,despite condemnation from US both at public and private levels ,despite academic boycott,despite UN denunciation, he continues out of his volition ,supporting a thuggish entity.

  54. traintosiberia
    July 29, 2014, 7:17 pm

    Guardian is reissuing the claims from an ex soldier -http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/28/israeli-military-most-moral-no-more-outrage-indifference#comments
    The argument type is same. Yesterday we were better. Yesterday we won. Yesterday we were underdog . Yesterday we fought valiantly . Yesterday we had an enemy that had to be destroyed . But now we are not doing that well. Our moral authority is shrinking .

    That’s not the case .
    It has always been a Nazi apparatus .

    I ascribe this changing phenomena at two reasons- yesterday there was no presence of Palestine either in concrete or abstract level in the western territory. So the lies got only bigger and better .
    It does not work anymore for the Internet,camera phone,twitters .

    Guardian is moderating and removing anti zionist comments to its best of the abilities. But those that are allowed are picking up endorsements by hundreds and even thousands .

  55. traintosiberia
    July 29, 2014, 9:41 pm

    link to timesofisrael.com

    To Israel and to the diaspora in Brazil – this is just a lopsided uneven soccer match !

  56. Shingo
    July 29, 2014, 10:51 pm

    I recall that Allan Dershowitz used this came argument in 2006 about civilians in Lebanon.

    According to Alan Dershowitz’s logic, it’s perfectly acceptable to kill Lebanese civilians because they voted for and support an organization that kills Israeli civilians.

    We must stop viewing Lebanon as a victim and begin to see it as a collaborator with terrorism.
    link to huffingtonpost.com

  57. DICKERSON3870
    July 30, 2014, 3:35 am

    RE: “Rabbi David-Seth Kirshner, the president of the NY Board of Rabbis, suggested that Palestinians who voted for Hamas are combatants who deserve to be targeted by Israel.” ~ Weiss

    MY COMMENT: I’m pretty certain that Germany’s National Socialists used quite similar “logic” to convince themselves that the ‘Final Solution’ they had devised to resolve their “Jewish Problem” was really quite kosher. They obviously knew that most of the world would disapprove of their plan, because they were careful not to make it publicly known; but they probably attributed the anticipated disapproval to most of the world’s not having had enough experience with the Jews so as to understand their “true nature” (as the Germans probably thought only they did, due to what they saw as their own extensive experience with the Jews).

    ALSO SEE: Gaza’s Children Trapped in Despair, by Norman Pollack, Counterpunch.org, 7/28/14

    [EXCERPT] . . . Before turning to Beit Hanoun, I must contest the idea of the self-hating Jew because an impediment to clear thinking on the inflammatory subterfuge which seeks to exonerate Israel from its aggressions now and before, and because it also seeks a false solidification of the Jewish people through scare-tactics of supposed disloyalty and worse. Criticism of Israel does not signify anti-Semitism. Period. The charge of self-hating Jew is intended to terrorize Jews into conformity while not-so-subtly giving sanction to Torah interpretations, admittedly present, which emphasize passages celebrating conquest, the chosen-people idea, and divine mission (the Promise of the Land). My position, however, is that Judaism is more than the embodiment of ethnocentrism. From its secular and religious dimensions, often combined through an irreducible identity founded on historical experience and social teachings, we see in the nineteenth and twentieth century, until, I suspect, the 1970s, an inspirational surge of radicalism and intellectual creativity central to US and global progressive currents, from philosophy, literature, and painting, to the organization of unions, civil rights demonstrations, and the antiwar movement, earning, particularly in the period 1890-1940, the respect for American radicalism enjoyed on a world basis.

    Jewish neuroticism (a not altogether deplorable trait, because, Hamlet-like, it often can lead to fleshing out submerged issues) is not of interest here, except insofar as the “self-hating” imagery disguises from Israelis the layers of repression corroding the Jewish conscience through showing indifference to the suffering Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. American Jewry, ditto. Making the charge itself betrays the characteristics of a blood-feud, in which Israel is fast destroying Judaism. I cannot let that happen, despite CounterPunchers who have e-mailed me saying, in effect, I should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Judaism, perhaps all religion, is not worth saving. I’m not prepared to go that far. One cannot blame Judaism for Israel’s conduct. Israel has brought Judaism’s identity into question, an issue beyond secular vs. religious, or, for the latter, between various intra-denominational shadings or belief systems. As religion it stands in danger of transmogrification because of unyielding attachment and devotion to its nationalistic expression, presumed to have the status of universality, which, were it any other nation, would have earned the condemnation for its policies and actions by a pre-Israel world Jewry and, especially, Jewish community in America.

    If I tend to romanticize and/or exaggerate Jewish radicalism, humaneness, socially transcendent visions of racial equalitarianism and economic democratization, foundation stones for emancipated thinking in literature, music, philosophy, and the arts, signifying a vanguard group for progressive civilization, this is bred in my bones, in my civil-rights and antiwar protests, in spiritual affirmations of human betterment, whether or not I was a believer, an agnostic, or an atheist. Judaism was historically the umbrella under which like-minded radicals/humanists gathered—of course not the only one, but worthy of respect and, through my criticism of Israel and the American Jewish community in lockstep with it, my pointed effort toward its liberation from what I consider its present state of global Reaction and moral emptiness. The charge of self-hating Jew is framed by guilt that Judaism as currently practiced can no longer affirm its past. Enough for now; I shall return to the topic later in greater depth. The deeply-moving tragedy of Beit Hanoun awaits discussion. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to mondoweiss.net

  58. Daniel Rich
    July 30, 2014, 3:47 am

    But it also angered Israeli fans — with some going so far as to make death threats against the 21-year-old heartthrob, a British-born Muslim of Pakistani heritage.

    People who don’t live in Israel don’t have any right to say their opinion out loud,” tweeted one young woman, Shaked Erez, who added the hashtag #freeisrael for good measure.

    Oh, my…

  59. dcrobertson68
    July 30, 2014, 11:00 am

    How the Jews of Israel seem to have forgotten the Nazi ghettos as they now subject Gaza to a similar fate. Israel is nothing but a fascist state. I look forward to the day when the Jews become a minority in Israel and it ceases this murderous so-called self-defence.

  60. fayez chergui
    July 30, 2014, 3:43 pm

    How can one mix the word «moral» and «army». It’s an oxymoron. Fanaticism make morons.

  61. MSeveral
    July 30, 2014, 6:09 pm

    I would have thought that rabbis would tap into their education, their moral standing, their wisdom, and deep knowledge of the texts of my religion to find the words and language that fully expresses these morally difficult times. What I discovered is that Rabbi Kirschner’s remarks are not very different from most of the rabbinic comments I have read. Instead of finding a high level tone from our religious leaders, I have seen that they have discarded what I thought were our traditions and embraced instead the language of the government of Israel. It is indeed pathetic that such an important American rabbi only sees Judaism as a tribal religion without either ethical values or moral content.

  62. Mooser
    July 30, 2014, 7:59 pm

    “It is indeed pathetic that such an important American rabbi only sees Judaism as a tribal religion without either ethical values or moral content.”

    That my friend, was inevitable, ordained, inescapable, the second Zionism was begun. Many people, many Jews, saw that. But Zionism does not answer to the Jewish religion
    And those who expect it to or even expect Zionism to answer to Jews will be, I am afraid, very disapointed.

    Good Lord, if there is one thing Zionism knows how to do, it’s handle Jews and make them do what Zionism wants.

    • RoHa
      July 31, 2014, 3:41 am

      There are time, Mooser, when it sounds as though you are channeling Moshe Menhuin. Are you, or is it all your own work?

  63. American
    July 30, 2014, 10:58 pm

    OMG…the slimy Rabbi Botech is on CNN preaching against anti Semitism—big discussion about rising anti Semitism.

    So the host reads off a tweet sent in by viewer that ask if Jews realize that Israel is treating Palestines as the Nazis did Jews.

    So Botech goes into how Jews are the victims just trying to protect themselves—-and how awful it is that Jews, the true victims, aren’t allowed to ‘morn their holocaust” without being accused of being Nazis. —–that’s his answer.

    And that boys and girls is why anti Semitism is on the rise.
    No one believes that Jews are the victims in this —–and every time the media puts some lying … Rabbi like Botech on it only increases the public’s view of Jews as supporting child killing Nazi Israel.

    You have to wonder if Zio central deliberately picks Jewish mouthpieces to put on the air who will infuriate people and increase anti Semitism or if they are just absolutely stupid.

  64. David Jones
    July 30, 2014, 11:34 pm

    These guys seem to have no awareness of the implications of their logic. So if Palestinians are responsible for their own murders by voting for Hamas, why aren’t Israeli’s responsible for suicide bombings, rocket attacks, and other forms of “terrorism” against occupation and Jews only colonization, given that they keep electing pro-apartheid leaders to government? Even the Labor Party supports maintaining the apartheid state.

  65. seanmcbride
    July 31, 2014, 9:30 am

    Annie,

    One has often heard the argument made that the German community as a whole at the time shared responsibility for the behavior of the Nazi regime in Germany. Some people even go farther and insist that the German people collectively, beyond that small window of time, are responsible for Nazism. (I have heard both arguments made by some leading members of the Jewish community.)

    Your thoughts?

    To what degree does the American community bear responsibility for the Vietnam and Iraq Wars? To what degree does the Christian community bear responsibility for 2,000 years of antisemitism? To what degree does the Jewish community in Israel bear responsibility for the current violence against civilians in Gaza? (A very large majority of Israelis support current Israeli policies in Gaza.)

    It seems to me that these are rather complex issues to parse. Mainly what I look for is consistency in applying whatever standards one chooses in these matters.

    In my opinion, if you belong to a religious community that advocates particular political policies, and if you actively support that religious community financially, you bear some responsibility for the policies of that community. This strikes me as an uncontroversial point of view.

    • Annie Robbins
      August 1, 2014, 2:21 am

      well, had you said “bear some responsibility” earlier i wouldn’t have commented. but you said “full responsibiliy.

  66. piotr
    July 31, 2014, 11:29 am

    “It is indeed pathetic that such an important American rabbi only sees Judaism as a tribal religion without either ethical values or moral content.”

    My impression is that were Rav David-Seth keen on ethical values he would not be an “important rabbi”. It is easier with moral content. This is the morality “support good people against bad people”. Who are the bad people? Whoever opposes the good people (or begrudges, or some lesser offense). And who are the good people? Simplicity itself: the chosen ones! (Except self-hating etc.)

    Then there is “Jewish atheism”. Namely, a large number of people who do not believe in God, but believe that God gave the Holy Land to the Jews. Many are actually enrolled in Reform and Conservative temples. But now, sadly, when Israel “needs your help more than ever”, some of those are publicly recanting that belief link to salon.com
    And it is not just Shira Lipkin. Entire Salon Magazine is overrun by Islam Loving Leftists (using nomenclature that Rav David-Seth would presumably approve), and I think it is a recent development. Make no mistake: the top priority of Salon is to be hip, so among the 20+ front web-page stories there is zilch about Gaza or Israel. But to be hip, nowadays you have to REJECT the message of the Lord giving Israel to Jews for eternity and to REJECT that Israel is not a repulsive oppressors, about which the less is said the better (because we do not really care), but really, nothing good can be said.

    Sam Harris of Reason Project chose to affirm his support of Israel as Jewish atheist, which confused me for 10 minutes. After checking, Reason Magazine has absolutely unconnected to Reason Project, and they are thoroughly hip on Israel: we do not care, but if you ask me, Israel is an obnoxious bully and oppressor. To paraphrase slightly: how can we seriously defend the right of Americans to own and carry arms of their choice and deny Hamas the right to bear and use rockets? But we really care only about the former.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      July 31, 2014, 12:37 pm

      Piotr: “A large number of people who do not believe in God, but believe that God gave the Holy Land to the Jews.”

      There’s a perfectly simple explanation. God used to exist but now he’s dead.

  67. singerj
    December 8, 2014, 6:27 am

    Real courageous Rabbi – he had me arrested for celebrating Shabbat with songs of peace – pro-Palestinian protestors targeted our synagogue because the rabbi spoke out at the UN – and I was like the Walmart greeter after people passed the ugliness of the protestors and the police, welcoming them to our shul.

    Mr. Tough on Hamas decided to take out the fact that temple members were mad at him for bringing attention to our synagogue and his own stress of being followed, filmed along with his wife and little kids, and threatened by the protestors, on me – and he had me link to bit.ly (the rabbi lied but no one died) and this shows why I was link to bit.ly

    • Annie Robbins
      December 8, 2014, 6:00 pm

      mr. singer, from the article you linked to it says 4 protestors waved flags and held signs. i’m not sure how that is defined as threatening. it also said “Deborah Tuchman, the president of the temple, expressed support for Israel and said Temple Emanu-El’s congregants and clergy “do not have any issue with protesters who peacefully protest and voice their opinion near the entrance to the Temple’s property.”.

      whereas what you did:

      The protesters had been there since around 9 a.m. and left before the temple’s Saturday services ended. “We don’t feel it’s safe for us to be here when they leave,” said Siegel.

      Closter police Sgt. James Buccola said Jon Singer of Tenafly was arrested when he confronted the demonstrators against the wishes of temple leaders and then refused their demands to leave.

      Singer, 49, who described himself as a 15-year member of Temple Emanu-El’s congregation, said he had been driving by when he saw the protesters. He pulled his car into the roadway leading to the building and parked. Closter police officers were already there to monitor the scene, and Singer said he stayed in his car and played a Jewish song— after yelling a profanity at the protesters.

      Singer said he never should have been charged as he was a member of the temple and had a right to voice his stance.

      “I was just giving my opinion quietly,” Singer said,

      it doesn’t sound like the police thought you were giving your opinion quietly. perhaps you were disrupting the peace? and your evidence is a one second video? or the 3 second video?

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