Israel’s message to the Palestinians: Submit, leave or die

Israel/Palestine
on 128 Comments
Palestinians search in the rubble of a destroyed house where eight members of the Al Haj family were killed in a strike early morning in Khan Younis refugee camp, southern Gaza Strip on Thursday, July 10, 2014.  (Photo: AP/Khalil Hamra)

Palestinians search in the rubble of a destroyed house where eight members of the Al Haj family were killed in a strike early morning in Khan Younis refugee camp, southern Gaza Strip on Thursday, July 10, 2014. (Photo: AP/Khalil Hamra)

The Kerry initiative may have ended with a whimper instead of a bang, but its impact on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was significant and fundamental nonetheless. The end of the political process, futile as it may have been, triggered the collapse of the status quo as we have known it for the past 47 years. It set in motion a series of events that will confront us with two stark alternatives regarding Israel and Palestine: either the permanent warehousing of an entire population or the emergence of a single democratic state.

Both the blatantly disproportionate response to the kidnapping and killing of the three Israeli boys and, as I write, the all-out air strikes on Gaza, have been cast by Israel as military operations: Operations Brothers’ Keeper and Operation Protective Edge. Neither had anything to do with the operations’ purported triggers, the search for the boys or rocket fire from Gaza. Palestinian cities supposedly enjoying extra-territorial status were invaded in Operation Brothers’ Keeper, more than 2000 homes were ransacked, some 700 people arrested. Who knows as yet the devastation wrought on Gaza – 100 dead in more than 1,100 air attacks so far, mostly civilians according to reports; deafening around-the-clock bombing of communities by American-supplied F-15 and artillery from the ground and sea that amounts to collective torture; Israel’s Foreign Minister calling for cutting off all electricity and water amidst threats to completely obliterate Gaza’s infrastructure; and the prospect of almost two million people being permanently imprisoned, reduced to bare existence just this side of starvation. 

What is clear is that the military operations had a purpose of their own, that they would have been launched regardless, that they were merely waiting on a pretext. They had to come because the vacuum left by Kerry had to be filled. “Closure” was necessary – and it was clear that the Palestinian Authority, which had several months to take an initiative that would have bolstered the Palestinians’ position, would not do so, even though Martin Indyk, the American’s chief negotiator and former AIPAC leader, placed the blame squarely on Israel for talks’ failure. 

In fact, the end of the Kerry initiative marked the culmination of a decades-old campaign, systematic and deliberate, of eliminating the two-state solution. From the start, in 1967, successive Israeli governments officially denied that there even was an occupation, claiming that since the Palestinians had never had a state of their own they had no national claim to the land. The Labor Party denied the very applicability of the Fourth Geneva Convention that protects civilian populations finding themselves under hostile rule with no means of self-defense – and which had been formulated specifically with the intent of providing the protection denied to Jews during the Holocaust. It therefore embarked on a project of establishing settlements, now numbering some 200, in clear violation of international law that prohibits an Occupying Power from moving its civilian population into an occupied territory. 

Indeed, Labor (the “Zionist left”) bears more responsibility for eliminating the two-state solution than does the Likud of Begin, Sharon and Netanyahu. It was Labor who ruled during almost all seven years of the Oslo peace process, and it was Labor that chose to double Israel’s settler population during that period. Labor fragmented the Palestinian territories into tiny and impoverished enclaves, Labor imposed the economic closure and impediments to Palestinian movement these last 21 years, and Labor – not Likud, which actually opposed the project – initiated the construction of the Separation Barrier, the Apartheid Wall.

The Likud, of course, was a willing partner, as were all the secular and religious parties from the center to the extreme right, but it has fallen to Netanyahu to kill the two-state solution for once and for all. The first step was to decisively end Kerry’s initiative and any that might follow it. This Netanyahu did by raising his demands to intolerable levels. He declared that the Palestinians must relinquish their own national narrative and civil rights by recognizing Israel as a Jewish state, and he held to the position that Israel would retain permanently East Jerusalem, the Jordan Valley and Israel’s main settlement blocs (about a third of the West Bank), as well as the water and natural gas resources, the country’s electro-magnetic sphere (communications) and all of its airspace. 

He left the Palestinians with less than a Bantustan, non-viable and non-sovereign, a prison comprised of the 70 islands of Areas A and B of the West Bank, ghettos in “east” Jerusalem, tightly contained enclaves within Israel, and he cage which is Gaza – half the population of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River confined to dozens of islands on 15% of historic Palestine.

Operations Brothers’ Keeper and Protective Edge represent the imposition of a regime of warehousing, of outright imprisonment of an entire people. The seemingly blind and atavistic destruction and hatred unleashed on the Palestinians over the past few weeks is not merely yet another “round of violence” in an interminable struggle. It is the declaration of a new political reality. The message is clear, unilateral and final: This country has been Judaized: it is now the Land of Israel in the process of being incorporated into the state of Israel. You Arabs (or “Palestinians” as you call yourselves) are not a people and have no national rights, certainly to our exclusively Jewish country. You are not a “side” to a “conflict.” Once and for all we must disabuse you of the notion that we are actually negotiating with you. We never have and never will. You are nothing but inmates in prison cells, and we hereby declare through our military and political actions that you have three options before you: You can submit as inmates are required to you, in which case we will allow you to remain in your enclave-cells. You can leave, as hundreds of thousands have done before you. Or, if you choose to resist, you will die.  

Warehousing is worse than apartheid. It does not even pretend to find a political framework for “separate development,” it simply jails the oppressed and robs them of all their collective and individual rights. It is the ultimate form of oppression before actual genocide, and in that it robs a people of its identity, its land, its culture and the ability to reproduce itself, it is a form of cultural genocide that can lead to worse. This is what Israel has left the Palestinians, this is the meaning of the bombing of Gaza, the terrorizing of the West Bank – and the ongoing destruction of Bedouin and Palestinian homes within Israel.

Assuming that apartheid and warehousing are absolutely unacceptable “solutions” and, indeed, are ultimately unsustainable, generating even more violence and conflict in the volatile Middle East, Israel has in fact left us with only one workable, just and lasting way out: a single democratic state in Palestine/Israel that guarantees the individual and collective rights of all its citizens. This is what we must struggle for. Israel’s military operations mark the beginning of the collapse of the Occupation. It is incumbent on Palestinian civil society, joining with their partners on the critical Israeli left, to urgently formulate how that state would look and, ensuring everyone in that land a part in its future, to begin the struggle to achieve it. Despite the suffering of the moment, public opinion the world over support us. Only our effective mobilization will defeat warehousing.

About Jeff Halper

Jeff Halper is the Director of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD). He can be reached at [email protected]

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128 Responses

  1. Justpassingby
    July 11, 2014, 1:57 pm

    Annoying but the israeli propaganda is more powerful than ever. I hate to admit that, but that is true.

    • German Lefty
      July 11, 2014, 6:12 pm

      Right! Did you see this year’s 24-country poll for BBC World Service?
      link to downloads.bbc.co.uk
      Israel is discussed on pages 31 and 32. Its reputation actually improved.
      Here’s last year: link to intifadagr.files.wordpress.com

      @ Jeff Halper
      Great article! Thanks.

    • Penfold
      July 11, 2014, 8:09 pm

      I am not sure I agree I think Israels propaganda has reached its high water mark which you can see in the worlds collective response to the unity government being positive despite Israel throwing its toys out of the cot.

      I think the world in general is tired of Israel, they have cried wolf once too often and it is now just the pre-purchased politicians of the USA that is keeping the status quo in place but even that wont last.

  2. ToivoS
    July 11, 2014, 2:45 pm

    Very good summary for where things stand. It is sad to see the Abbas admin paralyzed into inaction and passively accepting whatever Israel wants to do. Their next step should have been to go to the ICC and establish standing. I guess Abbas and his PA cronies cannot do this because the US has threatened to take away their allowance if they made that move. The US has set up a Palestinian leadership that has traded justice for the Palestinians in exchange for the generous funds to keep their 1% fat and happy.

    One sentence here grated on my sense of reality: It is incumbent on Palestinian civil society, joining with their partners on the critical Israeli left…. What critical Israeli left? Less than one per-cent of the nation that is politically irrelevant as far as anyone can tell. As wholesome as the writers are at 972mag, it does not look like they represent too many Israelis.

    • HarryLaw
      July 11, 2014, 3:34 pm

      “And it was clear that the Palestinian Authority, which had several months to take an initiative that would have bolstered the Palestinians’ position, would not do so” I agree ToivoS, Abbas must take a lot of the blame, Abbas recently told [I think it was the NYT] “I don’t like to go to the courts. I don’t like courts. I want to solve my problems directly between the parties”, this when a majority of the other Palestinian leadership members including Arekat and 17 NGO’s wanted Abbas to formally sign on to the ICC, even the Prosecutor at the ICC say’s she is waiting for the Palestinians [“the ball is in their court”] but the collaborator Abbas will not move. Then in South Africa [at Mandela’s funeral]he said he was against boycott of Israeli goods [BDS Israel proper]. Then to put the top hat on it, said that security co operation with Israel is ‘sacred’, he has just admitted that he has given assurances to the US that he will not approach the ICC, this is lunacy. During Abbas’s rule he has acted like a pharaoh, always asking for advice from the Arab League, a more futile act I cannot imagine,the truth is the only true supporters of the Palestinians are the countries under attack now from other Arab states led by Saudi Arabia, Iran,Syria and Hezbollah, Abbas has been in power 20 years in which time settlements have expanded exponentially and ethnic cleansing is a daily occurence, the Palestinians will lose, lose, lose, while that pathetic man leads them.

  3. RobertB
    July 11, 2014, 3:00 pm

    List of the 101 Palestinians, Including Whole Families, Killed Since Tuesday

    Friday July 11, 2014 13:12author by Saed Bannoura – IMEMC News Report post

    The following is a list of the 101 Palestinians killed by Israeli air bombardment since Tuesday, July 8th. These are the names that have been confirmed by medical sources in Gaza. 670 Palestinians have also been wounded, with some losing limbs and others disabled for life. All of the casualties listed below are victims of Israeli bombs dropped on Gaza since Tuesday.

    link to imemc.org

  4. Sumud
    July 11, 2014, 3:20 pm

    Palestinian’s message to the Israelis: You wish!

    • seafoid
      July 11, 2014, 5:04 pm

      I can`t see Zionism managing climate change. I can`t see Zionism doing what the Mamluks and the Ottomans couldn`t. I can`t see how this ends well for Judaism.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2014, 8:10 pm

        “I can`t see how this ends well for Judaism.”

        That, I believe, is the consummation Zionists devoutly desire. Anything they can do to convince people Jews should be excluded is grist for their mill.

  5. seafoid
    July 11, 2014, 3:25 pm

    The damage they have done to their own society and to Judaism mean their control is not sustainable. Zionism is a joyless , hopeless ideology, a mass psychosis. And to think the holy language of Hebrew ist the vector. The pity of it all.

    • SQ Debris
      July 12, 2014, 7:38 pm

      Languages are more than ways of saying words, they are the construction girders that create the form of a mental universe. A nice example of that is the way the verb “to be” is implicit in Arabic. What is, is, and does not require expression. Zionist resuscitation of Hebrew – a language from the age of slavery, abandoned by Jews outside the Shul – may have something to do with the expressions of the mental universe of Israelis that Palestinians suffer through. Dragging Hebrew out of the grave may have been as wise as cloning dinosaurs from their dna (see Jurassic Park). It’s all very inspiring, but get the children to safety.

  6. Abierno
    July 11, 2014, 3:48 pm

    Rashid Khalidi reports in an AlterNet article that Netanyahu “slipped” in a
    pronouncement indicating that permanent occupation is the current position
    of Israel. This article is thus very accurate. All of the operations in the West
    Bank as well as Gaza have been long planned, with the goals of arrest, expulsion
    and massacre being the means of significantly reducing the Palestine population,
    annihilating its leaders and, most significantly, eradicating the “little snakes”
    as per Ayelet Shaked.

    • ckg
      July 11, 2014, 9:02 pm

      Thanks for the alert. I spent some time trying to verify Prof. Khalidi’s statement. I think I found it here: link to 972mag.com

      • john h
        July 12, 2014, 12:56 am

        Thanks for the link, ckg.

    • HarryLaw
      July 12, 2014, 4:58 am

      Abierno@ “Rashid Khalidi reports in an AlterNet article that Netanyahu “slipped” in a pronouncement indicating that permanent occupation is the current position
      of Israel”. Netanyahu insisted the latest Gaza conflict proved that Israel could never allow an independent Palestine in the occupied West Bank, insisting it would simply become “another 20 Gazas.”

      “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan,” Netanyahu declared.link to news.antiwar.com

  7. ivri
    July 11, 2014, 3:57 pm

    The claim in this article that the Israeli army was just waiting for a pretext to launch its operations can be just as well used in regard to Hamas. Its main efforts in the last years, as is clear now, has been to accumulate more, better and longer-range missiles, which is also why they kept matters relatively calm so that they can do that with little interference from Israel. Now, if that is what you are mainly after then it is just as clear that you would want to test your new capabilities and “show” Israel how much more powerful they have become while and also gaining popularity in the Arab world and the Palestinian street (in their competition with the PA) as the ones that are able “to stand up” to the purportedly much stronger Israeli army (the way Hezballah built its reputation few decades ago)

    • Mooser
      July 11, 2014, 8:15 pm

      Its (Hamas) main efforts in the last years, as is clear now, has been to accumulate more, better and longer-range missiles

      Wait a minute, those nasty Hamas did that while Israel was unilaterally disarming? My gosh, that Hamas is horrible. While Israel disarms, and is scrupulously careful not to exceed it’s mandate, those awful Hamas were getting more missiles. You know what? I suspect they have an illegal nuclear arsenal, too!

  8. mondonut
    July 11, 2014, 4:17 pm

    Israel has in fact left us with only one workable, just and lasting way out: a single democratic state in Palestine/Israel that guarantees the individual and collective rights of all its citizens.

    100% agree. Judea and Samaria should become Israel and every resident should be offered Israeli citizenship.

    • Mooser
      July 11, 2014, 6:48 pm

      “100% agree. Judea and Samaria should become Israel and every resident should be offered Israeli citizenship.”

      So another words, you want them to peacefully submit to Israel’s racist laws, lack of constitutional freedoms, and bigotry, without complaint or action? You get the mine, they get the shaft?

      • mondonut
        July 11, 2014, 7:41 pm

        @Mooser

        So you would only be satisfied with a one station solution that eliminates Israel and makes the Jewish people a minority subject to the whims of their enemies?

      • pjdude
        July 11, 2014, 10:19 pm

        to make the palestinians their enemies was a choice that the zionists made. when rather than live in peace they sought instead dominion. the palestinians have zero obligation to cave to your sense of entitlement.

      • mondonut
        July 11, 2014, 11:53 pm

        pjdude says: the palestinians have zero obligation to cave to your sense of entitlement.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        Yes, they have zero obligation to seek a peaceful solution, and they have not. They have zero obligation to compromise, they have not. They have zero obligation to seek anything other than the defeat of the Israelis, and they have not.

      • pjdude
        July 12, 2014, 8:05 pm

        mondonut saidYes, they have zero obligation to seek a peaceful solution, and they have not. They have zero obligation to compromise, they have not. They have zero obligation to seek anything other than the defeat of the Israelis, and they have not.
        >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

        do you ever get tired of lying. they have gaought a peaceful solution all they asked was to be left alone in the bits of their left to them. Israel choose once more as they always have violence. they have comprimised and renounced all claim to the parts of their country Israel has illegally conquered. Israel still attacks them. they have been left no choice to seek to defeat Israel cause you and yours continue to attack them because you feel entitled to their property. at the end of the mondo your just another entitle Israeli thug with no sense of personal responsibility blaming your victims for crimes.

      • talknic
        July 13, 2014, 1:56 pm

        LADIES and GENTLEMEN PREEEEEESENTING the all lying, all bullsh*tting, ziocrap artist,the amazing mondonut!

        Able to deny facts in a single bound and who, after being shown on numerous occasions Abbas’s generous offer for peace at the UN, chooses like a good little propaganda mongering apologist for Israeli belligerence, to continue to falsely accuse, which is of course against the basic tenets of Judaism.

        One might be forgiven Ladies and Gentlemen for wondering why ANYONE in their right mind would break the basic ‘tenets of Judaism’ on behalf of the ‘Jewish’ state? But Israel’s apologistas do it all the time. They lie, falsely accuse and attempt to justify the coveting of other folk’s property and the slaughter to get it!

        “they have zero obligation to seek a peaceful solution, and they have not. They have zero obligation to compromise, they have not. They have zero obligation to seek anything other than the defeat of the Israelis, and they have not”

        because we believe in peace and because of our conviction in international legitimacy, and because we had the courage to make difficult decisions for our people, and in the absence of absolute justice, we decided to adopt the path of relative justice – justice that is possible and could correct part of the grave historical injustice committed against our people. Thus, we agreed to establish the State of Palestine on only 22% of the territory of historical Palestine – on all the Palestinian Territory occupied by Israel in 1967.

        We, by taking that historic step, which was welcomed by the States of the world, made a major concession in order to achieve a historic compromise that would allow peace to be made in the land of peace. link to pages.citebite.com

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2014, 11:28 am

        “So you would only be satisfied with a one station solution that eliminates Israel and makes the Jewish people a minority subject to the whims of their enemies?”

        First of all, how did the Palestinians become my enemy? They’ve never done anything to me, or my family, but I don’t steal anything from them, or murder them.

        And in case you forget, fool, I am, in the US (and in a place filled with German origin folks too!) a tinier minority then Jews in Israel will ever be. So what went wrong here? I’m still here, and so are we all and doing well, what went wrong?

        But yeah, now that you mention it, I think every goddam Zionist who is not willing to live on terms of equality with the Palestinians should leave.

      • American
        July 12, 2014, 8:46 pm

        Factoid on German Americans

        link to bloomberg.com

        snips…

        More than half of the nation’s 3,143 counties contain a plurality of people who describe themselves as German-American, according to a Bloomberg compilation of data from the Census Bureau’s 2010 American Community Survey. The number of German-Americans rose by 6 million during the last decade to 49.8 million, almost as much as the nation’s 50.5 million Hispanics. (Click here to explore an interactive county-by-county map of U.S. ethnic groups.)

        “A lot of people aren’t aware that German is the largest ancestral group in the country,” said Don Heinrich Tolzmann, a Cincinnati author who wrote “The German-American Experience.” “It’s an eye-opener, and it’s something that’s commonly overlooked.”

        While Hispanics and Asians make up the fastest-growing segments of the U.S. population, the increase in those identifying themselves as German-American underscores the nation’s European immigrant roots. It also reflects the use of new ancestry-tracking tools, a longing for identity and a surge in ethnic pride after the Berlin Wall fell in 1989, more than four decades after Nazi Germany’s defeat.

        Germans have been immigrating in significant numbers to the U.S. since the 1680s, when they settled in New York andPennsylvania. The bulk of German immigrants arrived in the mid-19th century; they’ve been the nation’s predominant ethnic group since at least the 1980 census.
        The 49.8 million German-Americans are more than triple the 14.7 million Asians counted in the 2010 census. Bloomberg’s county-by-county analysis broke down the Hispanic and Asian populations into subgroups by national origin, with Mexican-Americans and Chinese-Americans making up the largest share of their respective groups.

        Americans of German descent top the list of U.S. ethnic groups, followed by Irish, 35.8 million; Mexican, 31.8 million; English, 27.4 million; and Italian, 17.6 million, the census shows.

      • James Canning
        July 13, 2014, 1:28 pm

        Many Americans of German ancestry are also English, Irish, or Scottish ancestry too. And Scandinavian, for that matter.

      • Mooser
        July 13, 2014, 1:25 pm

        “”So you would only be satisfied with a one station solution that eliminates Israel and makes the Jewish people a minority subject to the whims of their enemies?”

        It hit me only after I left here last night, but where I come from, that is called BLACKMAIL!

        So there it is, the naked soul of the Zionist, one who tries to blackmail other Jews!

      • amigo
        July 12, 2014, 12:08 pm

        You dont get to keep your zionist supremacist racist rogue war mongering occupation nation because you are Jews.

        If getting rid of thst means the end of israel then so be it.

        Deal wth it.

      • SQ Debris
        July 12, 2014, 7:47 pm

        Jews are already a minority between the river and the sea. Minority status doesn’t seem to have been a problem for Jewish people in the U.S.A. Full citizenship for everyone living under Israeli rule. Law of Return for anyone whose relatives came from the area. Then you’ll have peace. That will be a truly Jewish state.

      • yonah fredman
        July 11, 2014, 7:42 pm

        Those who speak of a one state solution and do not foresee the path to that one state passing through annexation to Israel (of the West Bank to begin with) have some explaining to do as to how to get from here to there. (Particularly those of you who wave the flag of nonviolence.)

        Also Erekat, the negotiator, said that he is not scared of the blue card (the t.z. teudat zehut, israeli identity card). but mooser is scared. there is no constitution and there are racist laws on the books, but erekat is not scared, because he realizes that with a large contingent in the knesset things would begin to change.

        Those who say they are for equal individual rights must deal with the annexation and citizenship offer. Those who merely want to topple Israel through blood and fire, well, any goal you have in mind is okay with me, you have to talk to Yaalon and not me in any case.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2014, 8:07 pm

        “Those who speak of a one state solution and do not foresee the path to that one state passing through annexation to Israel (of the West Bank to begin with) have some explaining to do as to how to get from here to there. (Particularly those of you who wave the flag of nonviolence.)

        Yeah apparently there are an awful lot of people who didn’t notice that “Thou Shalt not steal” became “Possession in nine-tenths of the Law” and that ol’ “Thou shalt not murder” well, who needed that? It was disposed of at the last All-Jewish Convention. Went down by acclamation, as I recall, there was no need to take a vote.
        I mean, if people won’t inform themselves about changes in the religion, they have only themselves to blame!

        But I agree, Israel shouldn’t use violence to remove the settlers, they should find another way. Pay them off, and then absorb them into the general population, where they will be a big asset to Israel (ROTFL) The poor tethered goats.

      • pjdude
        July 11, 2014, 10:21 pm

        if the palestinians are allowed to vote for aprties that represent their interests than yes you have a point. but Israel is heavily invested in the lie that jews are better than others and deserve more rights than others. I do not see palestinians being allowed to vote for people who will represent them honestly. they will be forced to vote for jewish politicians who wish to remove them from their country that you and yours stole through a wars of your choosing.

      • RoHa
        July 11, 2014, 8:32 pm

        Astonishing! I agree (partially) with mondonut, Mooser, and yonah.

        A single state is the only possible resolution that comes within hailing distance of justice and morality in general.

        But that will not be just without great changes in the local laws and society.

        And making those changes will not be easy. The parliament can change the laws, but changing society will be a lot harder. (Especially since the area has so many religious loonies who do not recognize the humanity of anyone who is not a member of their own subsect.) A conscious, determined, effort at reconciliation will be necessary, and only the most naive could imagine it will be smooth and painless. (Dear me! Trouble in what is now a lotus-eater’s paradise.)

        Right now the Israeli government seems dead set against the idea, and I suspect that a lot of the citizens are equally reluctant to give up their Jewish state, so minds will have to be changed. Plenty of Palestinian minds will have to be changed as well.

        It will take a long time time for the Republic of South Levant to become the Serene and Popular Republic of South Levant, and for the two “peoples” to become one.

        So, mondonut, if you live there, start the process. If you don’t, who will?

    • Sumud
      July 12, 2014, 12:54 am

      Judea and Samaria should become Israel and every resident should be offered Israeli citizenship.

      The West Bank and Gaza.

      No independant deal will ever be concluded that excludes Gaza.

    • lyn117
      July 12, 2014, 2:09 am

      Halper included Gaza, if I’m not mistaken. I’m glad you 100% agree.

    • talknic
      July 12, 2014, 2:14 am

      @ mondonut Demonstrates the stupid Israeli apologist smelly foot in big fat mouth dance and shows that intelligent hired help must be in real short supply at Hasbara central

      ” Judea and Samaria should become Israel”

      So they’re not yet Israeli. So WHAT THE F*CK are Israelis doing there you stupid stupid person?

    • Talkback
      July 12, 2014, 4:38 am

      mondonut says: 100% agree. Judea and Samaria should become Israel and every resident should be offered Israeli citizenship.

      And without becoming a national, but instead a demographic threat in your “not for all citizens”-ethnocracy, right? We allready know your Apartheid stick.

      • mwill192
        July 12, 2014, 9:28 pm

        Pulling out the same old apartheid lie.

        link to amazon.com

      • Talkback
        July 13, 2014, 3:04 am

        Pulling out the same old Israel-is not-South-Africa-deflection.

        This is about the Crime of Apartheid as defined by international law. And Israel’s verion of this crime is worse.

        Btw. about the author of the article in your link:
        link to en.wikipedia.org

        Art you kidding us? A Christian hardcore Zionist?

        Btw. he’s just paying off his debt with his hasbara:
        link to cbn.com

        ROFL.

  9. seafoid
    July 11, 2014, 4:25 pm

    Surely intermarriage is preferable to Zionism now. Mow a real lawn rather than Gaza. Teach kids decent values. Leave WW2
    behind.

  10. justicewillprevail
    July 11, 2014, 4:56 pm

    Sad but true summary. Warehousing is apt, if a desperately dehumanising, coldly calculated and clinical method of depopulating a country so that the invaders can have it. Mass cruelty of a kind only paralleled by the most notorious and appalling ‘clearances’ in history. What a legacy and a stain on the human race they have bequeathed.

  11. NoMoreIsrael
    July 11, 2014, 5:10 pm

    What are the chances that a missile fired from Gaza not only kills an Israeli, but kills one of the Israelis opposed to Operation Defensive Edge, who represent less than .1% of the population?

    The chances are effectively zero.

  12. Boomer
    July 11, 2014, 5:10 pm

    “Make no mistake about what the United States is backing here. This is as pure a war of choice as any. Netanyahu has set up this fight, and has waged it. And, as always, it is the people of Gaza who pay the heaviest price. But Israelis too will bear the cost of this ruthless escapade in the long run. And the United States can only look at itself in shame as it supports this murderous and reckless endeavor.”

    Mitchell Plitnick
    link to lobelog.com

    • Sumud
      July 12, 2014, 12:57 am

      It’s not a war at all Mitchell Plitnick, it’s a massacre.

  13. seafoid
    July 11, 2014, 5:26 pm

    I think it`s time to stop beating about the bush and ask what is it about Judaism that allowed this malignant system to develop. Because we need to understand it in order to deal with it and the problem is bigger than Judaism`s capacity to fix it.
    Hatikva was not supposed to end up like this. The shtetl and the worst of “them and us” with the abuse of the Torah and the complete absence of any moral discipline have brought us to where we are now. And it is a very sorry advertisement for a great religion. Reform teenagers over in Israel on a social project while Israel is bombing the crap out of Gaza . No sense of where this is all headed. Israel needs Reform psychiatrists.

    • Mooser
      July 11, 2014, 7:23 pm

      “Hatikva was not supposed to end up like this. “

      Who says? The Zionists? Gosh, they would, wouldn’t they?

      And BTW, haven’t we got a lot of quotes and history, starting from the time Zionism started becoming active, telling us this is exactly how Zionism was going to end up, if the Palestinians didn’t just dry up and blow away? When did Zionism (except in some people’s imaginations) show that it is anything but what it is?

      • seafoid
        July 12, 2014, 5:12 pm

        Mooser

        Zionism could have been something. Jewish connections and Palestinian access to the Arab markets. Buber had good ideas. A lot of Palestinian people I know respect certain aspects of Israel such as innovation and social welfare. But the extremists fucked it up.

      • American
        July 12, 2014, 9:14 pm

        seafoid says:

        July 12, 2014 at 5:12 pm

        Mooser
        Zionism could have been something. Jewish connections and Palestinian access to the Arab markets. Buber had good ideas.
        >>>>>

        I dont think so.
        Consider what zionism was ‘based on from the outset:
        1) Seperation from All Others
        2)Victimhood
        3) Securing a land for Jewish rule knowing that whatever land they secured would contain Non Jews.
        That this would turn into a hostile mixture of religious and ethic nationalism was a given.
        And the ‘seperation’ isnt a seperation from others at all. Zionist Israel is dependent on intercourse and relations with the others world for its existence as anything more than a poor or undeveloped commune type of settlement.

        The demand to be seperate—-yet coupled with the demand for support from the others—mixed with hostility toward others……and establishing a nation based on this……..a FUBAR in the making if there ever was one.

      • RoHa
        July 13, 2014, 12:10 am

        Actually, it was separation, not seperation, the Herzl Zionists had in mind.

        But there do seem to have been others who thought in terms of simply making a Jewish cultural centre in Palestine rather than taking over the whole country as a state.

    • tokyobk
      July 11, 2014, 7:31 pm

      I mean this in a completely serious and polite way: You should go over to Jihad Watch and see how they express their “concern” about Islam and its reputation and how its finally time to start talking about seriously about the religion. I think you may get an inkling of how your fears for Judaism sound. Go take a look for yourself.

      Judaism will do as well as it can and not more and the people who are suspicious of it or of Jews did not need Israel for millennia and won’t need it if and when its gone.

      Think of all the millions slaughtered in the worlds of Christendom and the many different Islamic civilisations. And yet for so many others both are a path towards peace and truth.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2014, 8:01 pm

        You tell ’em tokyobk! And what about this! And what about that! And besides, look over there! And did you hear what these people did? And those.

        At any rate, two things are clear, right? 1)Zionism=Judaism=Israel
        and 2) None of this is our fault, and we didn’t even want to do it, they made us!

        Gosh, that old overweening Jewish sense of responsibility for our actions, I’m glad to see we’ve dispensed with that It was so oppressive!

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2014, 8:22 pm

        Whataboutery is when you change the subject to avoid having to answer a criticism. I don’t think Judaism is above criticism. As for Israel, I share most of the principled criticisms as others here. As for Zionism: simply no use for Nationalism Jewish or otherwise. Not my thing.

        I don’t think Christianity or Islam should be essentialized either, as I make clear.

        In fact, I agree with the tone and ideas in your response below.

        Seafóid has been going on for a while about how concerned he is for the state of Judaism and I made the above suggestion because he sounds an awful lot like people “concerned” with Islam.

      • pjdude
        July 11, 2014, 10:27 pm

        no is forgetting the history of chistianity or islam. but the vast majority of the members of those faiths are pushing to make them better. ignoring the violence and seeking the messages of peace and hope in them. most jews are pushing to become more violent. look at the zionist cheerleading of Israel’s latest murder campaign only shows that. so your point is bs.

      • Sumud
        July 12, 2014, 12:59 am

        They call islam a “great religion” over at Jihad Watch? I don’t think so.

      • seafoid
        July 12, 2014, 3:42 am

        Islam has had periods of localised fundamentalist madness linked to the abuse of political power in the past. The reign of Aurangzeb in Mughal India was a good example. Islam rolls on because it`s big and because it never ever has all its eggs in one basket – it is a religion, not a political project. And it has the people to absorb the failures. And over time many strains other than fundamentalism have developed. Because it is not possible to keep hatred going into the long term.

        Zionism is a jewish version of Aurangzeb`s reign. It`s a first for judaism, all this power, and it is obviously very exciting for people like Danny Danon who in another life would have just been a vicious internet troll. Aurangzeb had the soldiers too. But he left behind chaos. Opposition emerges to despotism, that is the way of the world.

        Judaism ultimately has to live in the world. I don`t feel that Zionism understands that.

      • aiman
        July 12, 2014, 9:04 am

        “I don`t feel that Zionism understands that.”

        And I don’t feel tokyobk understood you, seafoid. The comparison of your moral lament, which has been made by great scholars in Islam and Christianity as well, to a hate site like jihad watch is ridiculous.

    • yonah fredman
      July 11, 2014, 7:55 pm

      “I think it`s time to stop beating about the bush and ask what is it about Judaism that allowed this malignant system to develop.” seafoid asks. well, there are problems involved in the halachic system and its relationship to the “outside” world, but that is not why this system developed. It developed out of something called European antiSemitism. And the further development between 1945 and today developed out of something I call “reaction to the abyss”. And there in fact was no answer to European antiSemitism, other than emigration as individuals and in groups and one of those emigration movements involved auto emancipation and the natural place for that territorial sovereignty implied by auto emancipation turned out to be a place where there were people who considered it “their” home and not to be used by others for purposes of auto emancipation.

      Any system that would have suffered a blow like the abyss would be crippled in its aftermath and the success of Zionism (I use that term ill advisedly, meaning a perfunctory success a superficial success, a physical success, a political mess) covered up the crippling and thus the two periods: 1881-1945 and 1945 to 2014 are explained. any other questions?

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2014, 8:20 pm

        “the natural place for that territorial sovereignty implied by auto emancipation turned out to be a place where there were people who considered it “their” home”

        Yes sir, auto-emancipation as auto-eroticism, that’s you Yonah.

        And of course, there’s always the example of those Jews in the United States (filled BTW, with Gentile Europeans, as I recall) where Jews have no protection whatsoever and are a tiny minority. So of course, they all got wiped out.

      • yonah fredman
        July 11, 2014, 9:33 pm

        in fact mooser those who chose to move their butts to america were fortunate and did not need sovereignty to survive and thrive, but pinsker did not know that in 1882. in fact if we start at that point and work our way to today there are three different fates awaiting the european Jews of 1882: america, death or israel and israel only came about because america closed its gates in 1920. israel’s jewish population in 1920 was 85,000 and in 1940 was 400,000, if america’s gates had been opened at the time that four times plus increase in population would not have occurred and the critical mass of population would not have given Israel the wherewithal to exist, if not for the mostly closed gates. so pinsker’s theory only became true in practice due to the fact that america was not willing to be the benefactor of all the jews who needed her. but you can pretend as if all the jews made it to america and america had solved it all, even though it didn’t. but history that’s just an aus varf? just a chaleriya? just a shtus v’hevel? just a naarishkeit? you’re the yiddish expert. you tell me the word.

      • RoHa
        July 11, 2014, 9:52 pm

        “It developed out of something called European antiSemitism.”

        What is it about Judaism that led to European anti-Semitism?

        “And there in fact was no answer to European antiSemitism other than emigration”

        Integration? Learning how to get on with the neighbours and become part of society? British and Australian Jews seem to have figured that out fairly well.

      • Donald
        July 11, 2014, 10:56 pm

        “What is it about Judaism that led to European anti-Semitism?”

        This is called “blaming the victim”. It’s creepy. It’s like asking what is it about blacks that led to whites hating them? Or what is it about the Roma, or homosexuals, or whatever. For that matter, what is it about Muslims that makes Islamophobes hate them so much? Why do Israelis often seem to hate Palestinians? There are answers, but the answers generally lie more in the pathology of the persecutor and not in the traits of the victim.

        In the case of anti-semitism, it probably had something to do with that whole not accepting Jesus as the Messiah thing. Christians weren’t very forgiving of that. Plus there are some passages in the NT, particularly the Gospel of John, which are rather unfortunate. Plus picking on minority groups is something that humans seem to do quite often.

        “Integration? Learning how to get on with the neighbours and become part of society?”

        Yeah, right. You have the causality a little sideways here–sure, people need to get along, but it’s generally more a question of the larger society learning to tolerate and then completely accept the Other.

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2014, 12:29 am

        ‘This is called “blaming the victim”. ”

        No it isn’t. It’s asking a reasonable question.

        “… what is it about blacks that led to whites hating them? Or what is it about the Roma, or homosexuals, or whatever. For that matter, what is it about Muslims that makes Islamophobes hate them so much? Why do Israelis often seem to hate Palestinians?”

        All reasonable questions.

        “There are answers, but the answers generally lie more in the pathology of the persecutor and not in the traits of the victim.”

        And how can we know this if we don’t ask the questions? Asking the questions (without preconceived ideas of what the answers are) and finding the answers could lead to useful ideas about how to alleviate the persecution.

        (Incidentally, if the persecutor does not have any opposition to the traits – or what he imagines are the traits – of the victim, why would he pick on that particular victim?)

        “it’s generally more a question of the larger society learning to tolerate and then completely accept the Other.”

        It’s generally the Other demonstrating to the larger society that it isn’t so different and will support the larger society. If the Other continually cocks a snook at the larger society, it will not be tolerated.

      • Donald
        July 12, 2014, 12:21 pm

        “No it isn’t. It’s asking a reasonable question.”

        In the abstract, yes. But in reality, no. You didn’t ask a balanced question—you asked it in a way that put the onus on Judaism for the persecution. It’s disingenuous. We’re not talking about some remote country involving two groups A and B that we’re not familiar with–we’re talking about European antisemitism, and there’s not much mystery about it. Jews were a bone in the throat to Christians going back to the very beginning of Christianity. The question that bothered Christians was why Jews didn’t accept Jesus as the Messiah? Well, the answer given by antisemites is that they were stiffnecked and evil. Plus they put a curse on themselves according to the NT (His blood be on us and our children).

        I’m not opposed to someone pointing out the complexities–I recall reading a bit of Byzantine history during the reign of Heraclius when Jews aligned themselves with Persians and slaughtered Christians in Jerusalem. That doesn’t fit the usual model where it is a Jewish minority being persecuted by Christians. But it’s also not typical.

      • RoHa
        July 12, 2014, 10:44 pm

        ” You didn’t ask a balanced question—you asked it in a way that put the onus on Judaism for the persecution. ”

        I was following the structure of seafoid’s question. And since the story that I keep hearing is that everyone, everywhere, has always hated the Jews, it seems fairly reasonable to suspect that there is something about Judaism that arouses this universal hatred. People don’t all collectively decide to hate a particular group just on a passing whim.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 13, 2014, 2:14 am

        it seems fairly reasonable to suspect that there is something about Judaism that arouses this universal hatred.

        not really. it doesn’t seem fairly reasonable to me. especially in light of what’s going on today. it presumes ‘universal hatred’ stems not from the person/people who hate but from the subject of their hatred. and then it presumes it is the religion of that subject responsible for the haters hatred. it’s contorted.

        for example, would you ask what it was about islam or christianity that was responsible for for teens writing ‘death to arabs’ and all those other awful things on their instagrams? this would be way down my list of things to even consider, not something i would characterize as a reasonable suspicion.

      • JustJessetr
        July 13, 2014, 12:19 am

        “What is it about Judaism that led to European anti-Semitism?”

        The question implies that something ABOUT JUDAISM must have been responsible for people hating Jews.

        You are willfully ignorant and hateful when you deny that hatred is irrational and needs nothing to exist. It always supplies a reason to hate, but it based on utter nonsense.

        Jew-bashing is one such example, and you are a Jew-basher when you imply that Jews gave Europeans a plausible reason to hate them.

        Pig.

      • JustJessetr
        July 13, 2014, 12:34 am

        “What is it about Judaism that led to European anti-Semitism?”

        You spend an admirable amount of energy defending your question as totally innocent.

        I bet you wouldn’t have the guts to walk up to a bunch of angry African-Americans at a demonstration against police brutality and ask them: “What is it about Blacks that led to White people hating them?”

        Just sayin’.

      • Yitzgood
        July 13, 2014, 12:59 am

        What is it about Judaism that led to European anti-Semitism?

        You mean what is it abut Judaism that led to the male-menstruation libel?

      • pjdude
        July 11, 2014, 10:29 pm

        that;s crap. zionism came about with the transforming of a religious group into a nation albit a fake one. if it was a result of anti semitism it would have started forming hundreds of years before it did.

      • Donald
        July 11, 2014, 11:02 pm

        “if it was a result of anti semitism”

        Obviously it was in part motivated by antisemitism. That doesn’t mean it was a good solution to the problem of antisemitism–it ended up creating a whole new set of problems. But why deny the fact that antisemitism was one reason why many people supported Zionism?

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2014, 11:34 am

        Oh, for Christs sake! Whether Zionism was ‘born of anti-semitism’ makes no difference at all. Maybe it was, maybe Zionists saw a situation they could take advantage of. Of course they took advantage of anti-Semitism! They would, like all of the nationalist and/or fascist movements, would use any tool at hand!
        And they would, as they do, tell every Jew he is faced by life-threatening anti-Semitism whether they are or not.

        For od’s sake, how much time has Hostage been telling us (among others, about the origin of the Zioonists, and their methods.

        Of course they are going to say it’s all about anti-Semitism.

      • Donald
        July 12, 2014, 12:26 pm

        It makes a difference because real history is messy and nuanced and it’s a good idea to try to understand people’s motives even if one thinks they were wrong.

      • Yitzgood
        July 13, 2014, 1:05 am

        that;s crap. zionism came about with the transforming of a religious group into a nation albit a fake one.

        A “fake” nation? They were still carrying on an intellectual tradition in a language that dates back to the times when they had a king.

  14. Daniel Rich
    July 11, 2014, 5:58 pm

    Gaza tragedy: Civilians are collateral damage in Hamas and IDF fighting.

    She is one of the latest victims of Israeli airstrikes, which have claimed more than 100 lives including Shaima’s mother and her brother.

    “The girl went to visit her sister with her parents. On the road they came under missile fire. When she tried to avoid one, she was hit by a second,” a sobbing Samah al-Masri, the child’s aunt, told RT contributor Harry Fear. Shaima’s mother and brother died right after the attack, while she and her sister were taken to hospital, where her sister died.”

    Any staunch Apartheid State’s defender feeling the need to give any rationale for another IDF atrocity?

    P.S. I thought it was the IDF fighting Hamas, no?

  15. Daniel Rich
    July 11, 2014, 6:09 pm

    “I will end it when our goals are realized. And the overriding goal is to restore the peace and quiet,” – BB

    Is that one of the reason why the son of the father ain’t returning?

  16. Mooser
    July 11, 2014, 7:12 pm

    “I think it`s time to stop beating about the bush and ask what is it about Judaism that allowed this malignant system to develop.”

    Which Judaism are you talking about? Ashkenazi Judaism? Sephardic Judaism? Hyper-Ortho, Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform Judaism? Secular Judaism? Freakin’ Atheist Judaism? Judaism from what region, and at which time? There’s a lot of Judaisms.
    And when did us Jews get any input into the subject? By what process?

    Judaism, as a religion was weak, de-centralised, and theologically splintered as Zionism developed, and still is. That allowed individuals and groups to hi-jack it for Zionism. And a religion getting hi-jacked is a process exclusive to the Jews? I think not.
    And since Judaism is not a sponsored project of the Jewish religion, how could Judaism get together to stop it, or even modify its course? What handle do we have on Zionists? Do you think Zionists operate under Jewish religious authority?
    Their is no copyright on the word “Jewish”, anybody can claim anything is “Jewish”. And what is the process (for instance, we’ve seen one type of centralised religious process in the convention (? not sure that the right name for it) and voting in the Presbyterian divestment actions) by which Judaism could definitively brand Zionism as not-Jewish, or, if you want to go that route trefe?
    Zionism is not some sui generis thing which arose from, and could only arise from Judaism. It’s comparable to lots of non-Jewish colonial and/or fascist schemes we’ve seen over the last two centuries among all kinds of people. That doesn’t make it right, but it doesn’t make it Jewish.
    Please don’t give it the protection associated with religion. That is exactly what the Zionists want.! I’d rather not give it to them, thank you.

    Don’t you see, the answer to your question could very easily be “Cause there’s something ‘wrong’ with Judaism and Jews” In that case, the most humane thing would be to deport them all to Israel, wouldn’t it? Rather than either confine or kill all those people who can’t be trusted, and will never be honest, because there is something wrong with them and their religion. Plays right into Zionist hands.

    If I recall “What’s wrong with Jews and Judaism and what can we do about it?” was the question which was answered, “Why Zionism, of course!”

    You do realize the only religious answer to your question is “‘Cause God wanted it that way, I guess” Is that the answer you want?

    And of course since Zionism claims it is based on, or centered on, the Jewish religion, we should take them at their word? Maybe you trust Zionists that much, but I don’t.

    • ritzl
      July 11, 2014, 7:32 pm

      Great comment, Mooser. And thanks for your explanation the other day.

      Isn’t this is what Arendt, Einstein, et. al. were warning about in the ’40s? Are you saying their fears are being/have been realized? Is there way to de-conflate Zionism and Judaism? Can a decentralized religion collectively counter a centralized and funded co-opting political movement?

      Dumb questions, but that seems to me kind of what MW is trying to do. Awaken and rally disparate Jewish groups to move in a more or less common rejection of a Zionist substitution of itself for religion. Sorry if I’m dwelling on what is obvious to everyone else, but your personal battle and angst adds a new dimension to and/or appreciation for MW’s struggle, for me anyway.

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2014, 7:43 pm

        “Isn’t this is what Arendt, Einstein, et. al. were warning about in the ’40s?”

        I think many, many Jews (among others, of course) knew what was wrong a good many years before that.
        What I’m talking about is the idea that there is some uniform, identifiable quantity, or quality, called “Judaism” which gave birth to Zionism. When somebody finds it, we can start asking if it was responsible for Zionism.
        But I know damn well it’s the Zionists, more than anybody else (except out-right anti-Semites) who want us to look for it.

        (I’m glad you caught my response after the thread was closed, Ritzl, and thanks for telling me you did)

      • Mooser
        July 11, 2014, 7:46 pm

        “Dumb questions, but that seems to me kind of what MW is trying to do. Awaken and rally disparate Jewish groups to move in a more or less common rejection of a Zionist substitution of itself for religion”

        If you want a very clear idea of what MW is “trying to do” click on the “about” page.
        If you think any of that is a lie, and the website is being published under false pretenses, let us know.

        And once again, what is the process by which the Jews can do something “in common”? We’re not Presbyterians, you know! I have a great admiration for the process the “Prebs” engaged in, we should have one of those. But who will do the catering?

      • ritzl
        July 11, 2014, 7:49 pm

        I meant MY questions are dumb. Sorry. Bad writing habit.

    • Yitzgood
      July 13, 2014, 1:17 am

      Which Judaism are you talking about?

      One could also ask “which Zionism are you talking about”?

  17. tokyobk
    July 11, 2014, 7:23 pm

    Speaking to people with strong opinions on this issue it has always struck me how uncomfortable almost every one is with the basic fact that Israel conquered Palestine.

    The problem for Zionists is that just does not sound very nice or much like “a country without a people” or the arabs ran away voluntarily etc… The problem for anti-Zionists or even just critics of Israel policy and action can be 1) Israel’s bloody birth makes it like the US and Australia and everywhere else, i.e. who really cares about what happened to the natives– hey look at our wonderful x y an z… (PS when natives were a demographic and military threat in those territories the liberals of the day were not so liberal) and 2) brutal takeovers usually only reversed by reconquering. I don’t see that happening in the next few decades. Really, when it happens to our group we care but when have humans really cared about the fact that power decides.

    What the author is describing is the next phase of a complete conquering done pretty much the way it has always been done.

    The terrible events we are witnessing now will get much worse I fear.

    • a blah chick
      July 11, 2014, 7:31 pm

      Just because it was done in the past, and others got away with it, does not mean we continue to let it happen. Some of us have learned from bloody human history that mistakes do NOT need to be repeated. Especially when you know how wrong they are.

    • Mooser
      July 11, 2014, 7:39 pm

      “The terrible events we are witnessing now will get much worse I fear.”

      So basically, you are telling us ‘since rape is inevitable, try to lie back and enjoy it?’

      And of course, how futile and foolish it is to protest what is just so obviously the normal course of history? And why should we get all famischt over nothing?

      Or are you just trying to provide and answer to Seafoid’s question?

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2014, 8:28 pm

        No. I am saying Israel completely conquered Palestine and is continuing to do so and this fact makes people on all sides of the issue very uncomfortable for different reasons. Which is what I wrote.

      • seafoid
        July 12, 2014, 4:26 am

        Gen. Petraeus used to ask “tell me how this ends”

        How does this end, tokyo ?

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2014, 11:36 am

        “No. I am saying Israel completely conquered Palestine”

        Oh, “Israel” did it? It had nothing to do with Jews, or Zionism?

        You are trying to avoid a discussion of how badly Zionism has used the Jews, and Judaism.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2014, 12:04 pm

        I am saying Israel completely conquered Palestine and is continuing to do so

        that’s a contradiction in terms. had israel completely conquered palestine (which one presumes includes the people’s submission and/or death) there would be nothing more to ‘continue’ conquering.

      • tokyobk
        July 11, 2014, 8:33 pm

        I wish I did know what the real word – which is what I am talking about- solution is. On the Zionist side I see denial and frankly a lot of simply not giving a crap. On the pro-Paelstinian side I see fantasies of Israel’s demise which is not going to happen any time soon. Do you have a solution or is snarking on MW working well enough for you and everybody?

        I do see more and more American Jews saying some version of “not in my name” and the continued humanisation (as well as underdog status)of Palestinians in the American mind.

      • pjdude
        July 11, 2014, 10:37 pm

        but that just it the real world solution is there. admit what you did was wrong and take the apropriate legal steps to rectify it. that such a thing goes against your sense of entitlement doesn’t change the fact that that’s the solution. all the former colonial states did it to the degree and it worked. nut Israel won’t do that. because violence to gain all of a country that is not yours and will never legally be yours is more important than doing the thing that will ensure peace.

      • seafoid
        July 12, 2014, 4:49 am

        Fantasies ..

        Zionism still needs the DC lobby and hasbara to get through the day. It needs the US at the UNSC. It is dependent on the kindness of strangers in return for money.

        Perhaps it will all work out.

        And the site is problematic. That coastal plain on the edge of Asia. Why didn`t they take the hills ?
        Isn`t the real problem the fact that they didn`t take the hills in the first place ?

        And the second problem that there was no repeat of 1948, that the Palestinians didn`t run away?

        They have the land but they don`t know what to do with the excess population.
        And the friction comes from that.

        and the house is bet on the status quo and it`s not possible to change course now, there has been too much invested
        and the guys in the States will sort it out inshallah.

        and Netanyahu is a Genius who knows how to talk to the foreigners.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2014, 12:07 pm

        I see fantasies of Israel’s demise which is not going to happen any time soon.

        granted it probably won’t happen soon but if they don’t change direction it does seem like more of an inevitability as opposed to a fantasy.

        at this stage, israel changing direction is what seems like a fantasy.

    • Sumud
      July 12, 2014, 1:53 am

      The problem for anti-Zionists or even just critics of Israel policy and action can be 1) Israel’s bloody birth makes it like the US and Australia and everywhere else, i.e. who really cares about what happened to the natives– hey look at our wonderful x y an z… (PS when natives were a demographic and military threat in those territories the liberals of the day were not so liberal) and 2) brutal takeovers usually only reversed by reconquering. I don’t see that happening in the next few decades. Really, when it happens to our group we care but when have humans really cared about the fact that power decides.

      I’m not sure who you’ve been speaking to but the existence of Australia and the US presents no such problem to me (at least with regard to colonialism) and I identify as strongly anti-zionist.

      If anything, Australia and the US, and other former colonial nations such as New Zealand, Canada, and South Africa should represent the light at the end of the tunnel for Israel.

      In all those nations the indigenous population live with full equality before the law, but not in Israel. In Australia at least – I won’t discuss the other countries as I know my own much better – there has been a decades long (ongoing) campaign of reconciliation. We cannot undo colonialism but we can dismantle it as much as practical in all aspects: legally and culturally.

      The fact that Israel didn’t come into existence until after WW2 does change things and they must conform to international laws that simply didn’t exist when Australia and the US were settled. The fact that other nations got away with what we today consider terrible crimes does not let Israel off the hook – which is what you seem to be implying when you state that the existence of the US and Australia present a problem for anti-zionists.

      Israel itself chose to apply for membership of the UN and agreed to abide by all the relevant treaties and laws. And abide it must, and face the consequences when it does not.

      It’s really alarming to think about where Israel is in comparison to how Australia developed. It’s way back in the 1800s – but worse: complete conquest and pillage of all land is still the main agenda, the human rights of the indigenous are completely ignored, and the conquering population believe themselves to be superior beings as they rain down death and destruction on the captive indigenous population.

      The alternate model for what happens after colonialism is Algeria. I can’t see ‘the suitcase or the coffin’ ever coming to pass in Palestine but you never know. The situation in Algeria deteriorated so badly because the colonial French were extremely brutal with the Algerians, and arguably Israel is that cruel or worse.

      Time will tell.

      • Keith
        July 12, 2014, 5:45 pm

        SUMUD- “In Australia at least – I won’t discuss the other countries as I know my own much better – there has been a decades long (ongoing) campaign of reconciliation.”

        Who to believe, you or John Pilger?

  18. Kay24
    July 11, 2014, 7:24 pm

    According to Ben Wiedeman of CNN the number killed in Gaza stand at 115.
    Ben W. is a good reporter, and he being in Gaza, is able to describe the suffering of the Palestinians, as the wrath of Israeli forces are felt by them. A very sad situation.

  19. Mooser
    July 11, 2014, 7:54 pm

    What the hell am I doing here? Washington State just started selling pot in the stores this week, and I’m home kvetching on Mondoweiss? I must be nuts. I’ll see you all tomorrow, and thanks. In the meantime, I’ll leave no turn unstoned.

    • Bumblebye
      July 11, 2014, 9:03 pm

      Don’t forget the mangoes to go with it! I read it ‘enhances’ the impact.

      • Mooser
        July 12, 2014, 11:37 am

        There’s “mangoes” here enough for all when the zio-trolls are active.

  20. mascraig
    July 11, 2014, 8:52 pm

    And not just in Palestine. Here in America, too. Ali Abunimah assaulted by LAPD.

    link to loonwatch.com

  21. cogit8
    July 11, 2014, 10:16 pm

    I had the pleasure of meeting Jeff Halper several years ago, but perhaps he could give further thought to this question of “recognizing Israel as a Jewish State”. My sense is that the Palestinian leadership is so fragmented that no one entity can speak for the whole Palestinian people, despite the best public relations efforts of Israel to designate a quisling and have him crawl on bended knee to the Knesset to accept Israel as a Jewish State.
    So here is my suggestion to the Palestinians (nay, to anyone) who has a problem with “Jewish State”: acceptance of same does not mean negation of anyone’s civil rights or acceptance of any religious claptrap regarding ownership of the land of Israel, or anything else, it simply means that Jews are responsible for everything that Israel has done in the past, is doing now, and will do in future.
    That being the case, it allows the usage of the term “the Jews” when referring to the Jewish State; which is not allowed at present in the media.
    So, it would become correct to say “grab a lawn-chair; watch how the Jews enjoy defending their country by slaughtering the defenseless people of Gaza, whom they regard as vermin”. Or, “what is it about the Jewish religion of the Jewish State that teaches them that it is moral to hate people who had nothing to do with the holocaust, and what have these Jewish fanatics of the Jewish State in store for the rest of humanity who also had nothing to do with the holocaust?”
    In ju-jitsu, you use an opponents aggressive actions to your own advantage, in ways that lead to unintended consequences. I only hope the NYTimes tells me more about what the Jews are up to in Gaza, because I already accept that “Israel is a Jewish State”.

  22. NoMoreIsrael
    July 11, 2014, 10:35 pm

    This is an absolute MUST see, from elec intifada:

    link to electronicintifada.net

    We can no longer use the term “people” to refer to Israelis. They do not meet the minimum requirement, I’m afraid.

  23. can of worms
    July 11, 2014, 11:41 pm

    Best article I have yet seen.

  24. Walid
    July 12, 2014, 2:11 am

    ” even though Martin Indyk, the American’s chief negotiator and former AIPAC leader, placed the blame squarely on Israel for talks’ failure. ” (J.H)

    I put the blame for the failure on the Palestinians. They knew before getting into the negotiations that after 20 years of failed negotiations that these would not be any different and that they’d only serve as a pretext to stall and to steal more land. I blame them because they should have never accepted to get into them.

    About the ongoing onslaught on Gaza, a couple of days back, Abby Martin on RT blew a fuse on how the American press is misrepresenting the conflict as being one between opponents of equal force:

    link to youtube.com

    • seafoid
      July 12, 2014, 5:01 am

      I don`t agree ,Walid. People I know who are not deeply interested in the story all know about the peace process and were expecting a Palestinian state at the end.
      Oslo was a lapse in Israeli discipline. They can`t do the tokyobk on it and tell the goys that it was a conquest and bas or the Yonah and say
      it`s an old shoah injury that comes back every so often. They have to play the game and in doing so they create expectations. Customers expect them to pony up. And they never were going to.

      They expect the passage of time to lapse all Palestinian rights. That is stupid.

      the palestinians had awful PR in 1990. Hijackers and terrorists.
      They had to give the process a try. now Israel is the intransigent party.

      Of course they had to shaft a lot of people in the intevening period. it goes way beyond the Presbyterians. Lots of enemies.

      Don`t forget the generational thing either. most people in their 20s now don^t care about the Holocaust and don`t accept it is defence of human rights abuses.

      The bots have the cruelty but they don`t have the stability.
      Big risk buildups in the foundations. It would be interesting to waterboard Oren 183 times to see what he really thinks. _

      • yonah fredman
        July 12, 2014, 5:59 am

        Artificial? Maybe. But let me divide the history of Israel into time periods: 48 to 67. 67 to 87. 87 to present. (this 3rd period is longer than the previous two periods.) I pick 87 because that was the beginning of the first intifada and the Oslo process was a reaction to that, as was the Madrid peace conference that gave birth to the Oslo process. The Oslo process was initiated by the minority party: the labor party. (I realize that I am treating Israeli Palestinians as irrelevant in the following. Sorry, but let me talk for a sec:). That is: Since 1977 Israel has been ruled by Likud and Labor has lucked into it a few times, because of the natural ebb and flow of politics, but nonetheless this has been a solid period of Likud ruling party, but Oslo was initiated by Labor, so it is no surprise that it failed, because it was contrary to the wishes of the ruling party that was by chance out of power, but in fact represented the wishes of the majority of the voting Jewish public. In fact Likud has never put forward any plan and it only has opposition to Oslo and steady slow (quick) maintenance of the settlement project and acceptance of the status quo (for lack of any alternative).

        At this point I agree that I don’t see a good endgame. Initiative has passed to the Palestinians and I see their logical step to be in the direction of “annex us and give us citizenship”, logical but not here yet for various reasons. Israel is a success on one level and that allows the people to consider the Palestinian quandary as something insoluble that they will pass from generation to generation. The mess of the Arab world certainly reinforces the “what do you expect from me to solve the Israeli vs Arab problem, when the Arab vs Arab problem is so unwieldy”. I know that it doesn’t meet the bottom line and the bottom line is that Israel is at constant war and is occupying the west bank.

        and the nature of the occupation is the key problem: that it is a settler occupation. Israel’s experience with purely military occupation rather than a settler occupation: the primary example is the occupation of southern lebanon from 82 to 2000. (another example might be the current occupation of gaza, although no boots on the ground and the withdrawal of settlers and the entire history of Gaza and its population of primarily refugees, makes it quite different from the southern lebanon experience.) Thus we see an example of a non settler occupation and it is not pretty, but it is essentially different from the settler occupation of the west bank which is corrupt and twisted in a way that a military occupation is swamp like, bogged in the mud of Vietnam, but relatively straight forward.

      • seafoid
        July 12, 2014, 8:00 am

        Yonah

        I think the endgame is what counts. No point in any project without a clean exit. How does this end ? Israel made a colossal mistake in 67 and has continually doubled up on it. Not fair to 750K Jews to turn around and say it was all a stupid dream. All the money wasted.
        Easier to turn up at work on monday and play one`s part on the system, asking no questions.
        Tail risk is so hard to price. When the music is on you gotta keep dancing. I know it from the Financial side.
        What`ll Israel`s Lehman moment be ?

        link to youtube.com

      • libra
        July 12, 2014, 7:11 pm

        yonah fredman: At this point I agree that I don’t see a good endgame. Initiative has passed to the Palestinians and I see their logical step to be in the direction of “annex us and give us citizenship”, logical but not here yet for various reasons.

        An interesting comment, yonah. I would say at this point I don’t see a clear endgame though I do see a Palestinian demand for equal rights in a single state as the best endgame – or beginning of the best endgame. And I would also say that once the Palestinians make such a demand they will then have not only seized the initiative but also the moral power to ultimately effect this outcome.

        Though you are coming from a very different direction from me, I appreciate that you are really thinking about the issues and possible futures in I/P. I’m not sure you have embraced yet a single, democratic state as a good outcome but at least you are thinking about it. And in doing so I think you have shown there is potential to develop common ground in this direction for a better future for all in the region.

      • Walid
        July 12, 2014, 7:51 am

        seafoid, I had the Palestinian leadership in mind and not the Palestinian people. One could almost call what has been happening since Oslo a collusion.

        Yesterday’s gem from the Palestinian Gandhi was his declaration that he didn’t care who would win the current fight as he was more concerned about stopping the fighting and saving lives than about wining or losing. He stopped just short of blaming Hamas for what’s happening.

        Palestinians are stuck having to put up with the leaders that the US and Israel decide for them. But they’re not alone in not being allowed to choose their leaders, for decades, the leaders of the whole region have been decided on by the US and another regional player.

      • seafoid
        July 12, 2014, 7:54 am

        Walid

        I think Abbas played well since he took over. The Palestinians have always been accused of not being interested in peace. He did everything they asked of him and he has the right to say now there is no partner for peace. Maybe he is playing chess.

        Israel was never going to stop YESHA. It didn`t matter who was the Ra`
        `is of the Salad

      • Walid
        July 12, 2014, 9:51 am

        Palestine Papers left a very bad taste in my mouth, seafoid. Now that most of the fighters in Gaza are working in unison under a central command for the first time to break the log jam at a great cost to Gazans of course, Abbas is still preaching peace while Qatar and the US are working to take the wind out of their sail. The tanks that are lined up to enter are having second thoughts after last night’s encounter between scouting patrols in 2 humvees and Kornet anti-tank missiles that destroyed them; they haven’t forgotten their last trip into Lebanon.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2014, 12:17 pm

        It would be interesting to waterboard Oren 183 times to see what he really thinks. _

        totally!

  25. seafoid
    July 12, 2014, 11:08 am

    The bots weren’t even happy with the Palestine papers offer. They want falastin kullaha. They arae insane. Abbas can prove it. He can hand over to the next generation in good faith. It is impossible to deal with people who are as damaged or as evil as the Israeli leadership. Heek ya’ni.

  26. traintosiberia
    July 12, 2014, 11:17 am

    From link to timesofisrael.com

    The Israeli algorithm
    1 Basic tenet is to maintain total control of the land ,preferably without any indigenous
    population. If population did not leave,then they should live and survive like inmate,like native Indian in reserve,like fourth class in India,like the Jews in the train leaving for Poland from European towns.
    2 to realize that basic train, all other options have to be scuttled,decried,removed,ridiculed,and if necessary violence has to be unleashed.
    2 To justify the behaviors that would accomplish the realization, Israel can t speak of the tenet . Israel has to create new situation and blame the forces remotely linked to the conflicts . In the past,this is why it has blamed Saddam, Libya, Syria, Alquida and now Iran . In the process it not only delays attention to Palestine but forces money and gadgets out of Germany and US and forces Russia or China not to sell arms to Syria and Iran .
    3 The created situation will have to encompass the abstract and concrete level. The abstract is diffuse implicit subliminal hatred of Palestine,then Arab,then Islam and then the whole Muslim world. The description will inlcude the historical injustices against non Muslim in the past from Morocco to Indonesia and from Russia to Sudan.
    The abstract will also include Koran and Hadith and cover the current history of chronic violence and lack of democratic principle in muslim in habituated areas.
    The concrete part of the created situation will include the behaviors ( bad) of Muslim as jihadist,as failed leaders ,as lack of partnership, and also the constant ongoing propaganda by Israel in German,in France,in US and will reach India and China.the created narrative will try to seize any unrelated aspect of the behaviors of Muslims whether stoning to death,or slavery in Sudan or stone throwing by Palestine kids to multiply and increase the continuously present Israeli oppression and violence.
    4 the international responses to Israel will be ignored,ridiculed or be termed antisemite and effort be mounted to displace those voices from offices,from media,from public space.
    5 the local response will be war against the local human .
    6 once the tenet is reachable,now and then Israeli leaders will allude to it either as a slip,or to show contempt for the world that includes US and Europe.
    7 once the tenet is reached,some other angry stupid behaviors by Arab will be divined and sanitized as the solution that world was afraid of thinking but Israel was bold enough to think,contemplate,and accomplish.
    8 Cycle will repeat . The perimeter of Israel control has to get bigger and expansive.

    • traintosiberia
      July 12, 2014, 11:22 am

      This is why ,in this latest violence. the death of 3 Jewish boys was blamed on Hamas. Hamas leaders were then rounded up in WBank. Hamas ,it was known like any other human being will react. The reaction this time brought Israel closer to realizing the dream of total incorporation of Palestine land without Palestinian.

      • Annie Robbins
        July 12, 2014, 11:56 am

        traintosiberia 11:22 am , i completely agree

      • ivri
        July 12, 2014, 6:00 pm

        @Traintosiberia 11.22
        The only problem with this theory is the fact that what Hamas mainly did in recent years is to acquire tens of thousands of missiles – forsaking almost everything else for that. Even gave Israel a relative calm period for several years so as not to be interfered in completing this design. Does it not make sense that if you spend all that energy and time for that you would want “to show” everybody your new prowess? That you are now “a power” to reckon with, which can fire at will at all major Israeli cities (importantly, as different from the “cowed” PA). In short, they were waiting for an opportunity to demonstrate that and it has now arrived.

      • traintosiberia
        July 13, 2014, 10:02 am

        You are blaming Hamas for what again? They acquired missile during the calm period ? Is thats why ? its like adking for Ghandhi or Mandela again ? Oh when Palestine is going tot produce one ! Ivri- they were killed or eliminated long time ago. The possibility of a successful peaceful agitation has been destroyed long time ago by Israel. There will be no Ghandhi . Hamas will stop procuring missile only when Israel will show the proof that Israel has delivered something in return for the past fulfillment of those demands by Arabs ( recognition by Arafat , Saudi initiative or recent gesture from Iran have met and faced extra new more demands from Israel, agreeing to 1967 border ) and has kept its side of the negotiation.
        What did Israel do during the calm period again? Did they remove blockade,release Palestinian leaders from jail,councilmen from jail,release children from jail,allow business truck to roll in,allow checkpoint injuries and death minimized or be stopped? Did Israel allow unhindered access of foreigners to Gazacor Gazan to foreign countries? Did it allow students to travel,and come back?
        What Israel did to Gaza is like if Indonesian maintained ground,water,aerial blockade of East Timor or UK did same to India . In case of the later,UK could have used all the arguments that Israel uses – past terrorism,collaboration with enemy ( Japan, Germany, meeting with Hitler, boycott,and intra India violence along with the security need to keep the empires in Malayasia and Hongkong safe)

  27. James Canning
    July 12, 2014, 1:55 pm

    Is Israel slaughtering civilians in Gaza to enable Israel to continue its insane programme of building illegal colonies of Jews in the West Bank?

  28. Denis
    July 12, 2014, 5:04 pm

    With all due respect, Jeff, I must say . . . this article deserves an enormous amount of just that: respect. I have waded through miles of MW posts over the years and this sticks out as being among the very best in terms of information content, tone, and logic. Thanks.

    Jeff:

    Israel has in fact left us with only one workable, just and lasting way out: a single democratic state in Palestine/Israel that guarantees the individual and collective rights of all its citizens. This is what we must struggle for.”

    The sad and tragic irony is that this seems to be awfully close to what both Herzl and Balfour suggested a century ago.

    But for the life of me, I cannot see how a single democratic state in Israel/Palestine can ever come to be. The Palestinian birth rate alone obviates any chance of that ever happening. Does anyone think the Zionists are going to allow majority rule in a land in which they are the minority? Not a hope in hell. Does anyone think that the Israelis will ever let a Palestinian majority control the Knesset, the military, and the nukes? Not a hope in hell.

    But then again, in 1965 most of us would have said there is not a hope in hell of a black US president in our life time. In 1980 most of us would have said there is not a hope in hell of black rule in South Africa in our life time. Even when there is no hope in hell there is still hope.

    • traintosiberia
      July 13, 2014, 12:36 pm

      I don’t think Balfour had this scenario in mind. He along with Brandeis told that it was wrong to use mere numerical self determination since a great many potential inhabitants of the Jewish Home in Palestine still lived outside the borders . They continued to use bewildering logic like Zionism is rooted in age- long traditions,in present needs in future hopes of far profounder import than the desires and prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who live on that ancient land ” .
      Page 422 PARIS 1919
      Foreign Office reminded Weizmann ” it is most important that everything should be done to ..,allay Arab suspicions regarding the true aims of Zionism ” when he visited Palestine in 1918 .
      Herzl has himself wanted a state from Egypt to Euphraites( Complete Diary Vol || .page 711)
      Weizman admitted to Soviet ambassador to UK of the plan of driving millions of Palestinian to Syria,Jordan,and Transjordan and Iraq to settle 4 millions Jews( page 45 QUICKSAND by Geoffrey Wawro)
      Herzl’s collaborator Max Nordau said ” But there are Arabs in Palestine” He said ” I did not know that! We are committing an injustice” ( page 19 QUICKSAND)
      Herzl cautioned against ardent supporters of immediate expulsion by saying to ” expropriate gently…. Discreetly and circumspectly” and Zangwill wrote in 1921 ” We must gently persuade them to trek ” and ” to fold their tents and silently steal away”
      ( p 19 QUICKSAND”

      Today when Israel refuses to apply Geneva Convention or obey the rules of various international organizations ,it does not do something new that is out of its character.
      Reinterpretation of Democracy or rule of law in times of wars or the responbiloties to the occupied civilians are but tip of the iceberg that hides the original nature of the Zionism under the liberal,civilized,humane facade of Israeli society.

  29. libra
    July 12, 2014, 5:55 pm

    Jeff Harper: … Israel has in fact left us with only one workable, just and lasting way out: a single democratic state in Palestine/Israel that guarantees the individual and collective rights of all its citizens.

    I think Jeff Harper has been one of the most insightful commentators on Mondoweiss. He was making the point that the “two-state solution” was dead over two years ago and advised that we waste no more time discussing it:

    A necessary and urgent first step towards collapsing the otherwise permanent regime of oppression in Israel/Palestine is that we stop talking about a two-state solution. It’s dead and gone as a political option – if, indeed, it ever really existed.

    link

    Sadly, since then Mondoweiss has not consistently followed Jeff’s prescient advice and has wasted far too much time and energy discussing the “two-state solution” both in its main posts and in its comments section.

    After this latest Israeli assault on Gaza and its people, I can only hope that Mondoweiss takes up Jeff’s rallying call and puts all its resources behind spearheading the intellectual and moral argument for the single, democratic state. Even among non-Zionists there is so much capital – these days mainly emotional – invested in “two states” that the argument for the single, democratic state needs to be constantly and consistently pushed and pushed hard. The alternative, as Jeff says, is “warehousing” – though I think that could prove to be just a staging post to “transfer”.

    • Justpassingby
      July 13, 2014, 4:22 am

      SOme interesting views, lets see if Mondoweiss switch up on two-state vs onestate solution after this latest massacre.

  30. michelle
    July 13, 2014, 12:01 am

    .
    does Israel really care who killed those three boys
    sure doesn’t seem like it
    in truth it seems like Israel would rather not know
    .
    a person is truly known by their treatment
    toward those they disagree with
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  31. asherpat
    July 13, 2014, 6:14 am

    Please can anyone define and explain the following terms used in the article above:

    “Collective torture”?
    and
    “historic Palestine”?

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