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Oren’s charge that networks showcase Palestinian dead at behest of Hamas is ‘obscene’ — Penhaul

Israel/Palestine
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Former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren

Former Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Michael Oren

Yesterday I wrote about Erin Burnett’s classy encounter on CNN with Israeli ambassador Ron Dermer, who angrily accused the network of failing to state that Hamas had put weapons in U.N. schools in reporting that Israel had struck a U.N. school in northern Gaza, killing 16. Mediaite has the video here.

Well to her credit, Burnett returned to the report last night, and said that Dermer misrepresented the network. And in the process she got Michael Oren, Dermer’s successor, to assert that Hamas strategy is to “drag Israel” into Gaza and “get Israel to kill large numbers of civilians.” (Shades of Golda Meir saying the Arabs force Israelis “to kill their children.”)

The backstory. On Thursday, Dermer said:

Listen Erin… Do you not think that it’s relevant to report on CNN that the secretary-general of the United Nations warned against the use of schools [for caching weapons]… I’ve been listening for two hours of reports on CNN. I have seen split screens, horrible pictures that any decent human being would be horrified by. I have not seen a single person say what I just said to you now. I think that does a disservice… There must be outrage by the world at Hamas.

And Burnett responded:

Ambassador… here’s my question, and the reason that we’re showing these pictures, because these are dead children. Would Israel have taken the time to confirm that those children were out of the school before you fired, sent someone in to look, or do you think it’s ok that you issued the warning and then just went ahead and fired [figuring] that’s their problem?

Dermer said, in part:

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not blaming the media for showing the pictures. I’m blaming the media for not connecting the dots… The outrage of the world has to be turned on Hamas.

Last night Burnett returned to the story, and said that CNN did report the UN’s assertion that Hamas had put rockets in UN schools. Twice in fact. So Dermer was wrong.

Dermer wasn’t available, but Burnett raised former Israeli ambassador Oren (another immigrant from the US to Israel, and awake at 2 in the morning to handle the incoming) if CNN’s coverage was fair. He said:

Israel is facing an enemy in Hamas which has not only military tactics but it has a media strategy.. Media is very much part of this conflict. Hamas knows that it can’t destroy Israel by its rockets and tunnels… Israel is not going to be wiped off the map by Hamas. What Hamas does want to do is drag Israel into a conflict in Gaza to get Israel to kill large numbers of Palestinian civilians. Journalists  quite naturally will want to capture those images. The images are tragic, they are lurid, but they also make headlines and broadcast [unintelligible]. Hamas has no compunction whatsoever about putting bodies on air. Israel doesn’t even allow the photographs of injured Israeli soldiers to be broadcast…. Hamas hopes, the reason for this–  … that translates into international pressure, riots on the streets of Europe, and it ends up in the Security Council, it ends up in the Human Rights commission, and Israel gets condemned, it gets sanctioned, and then Israel can’t defend itself. That is the ultimate  goal of the tactic.

Burnett turned to CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul. He said:

I think that any reporter and any of our colleagues would believe that it was obscene to suggest that we are showing the bodies of wounded, the dead and the dying, to make headlines. That I don’t believe is the case with any of the CNN teams or with any of our journalistic colleagues here in this region. Certainly at no time have we received any instructions from any of the militant factions in Gaza telling us what we can take pictures of or what we can’t take pictures of… [W]e are under no pressure either to or not to film any patients, to film children, or not to film children…

Penhaul then cited the Geneva conventions and the protection of civilians near military installations– whether or not armed forces issue “warnings” before attacking the civilian settings. He was suggesting that Israel was violating international law.

Amazingly, there was no time for Michael Oren to respond.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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113 Responses

  1. just
    July 26, 2014, 1:47 pm

    Thank you to the reporters Karl, Ian, Ayman, Jon, Ben…and to Erin Burnett and Chris Hayes…

    from your other article today:

    “And on the Can you see yourself as others see you front, here is Ayman Mohyeldin reporting from Gaza on the aftermath of an Israeli onslaught:

    In 13 years, I have never seen or smelt death the way I have seen and smelt it on bodies dragged from Shejaiya into the Shifa morgue today”

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/hospitals-synagogue-palestinian.html

    Israel is coming undone.

  2. justicewillprevail
    July 26, 2014, 1:49 pm

    How stupid do Oren and Dermer think people are? Clearly very stupid. If they are uncomfortable being confronted with the consequences of their support for wanton destruction, then they should change the policy. No-one in their right mind believes that Hamas has this incredible power they attribute to it, forcing Israel into bombing schools and hospitals – and then this amazing mind control over the media who show the results.The weakness of their arguments is woeful, their credibility about zero, and still they have the gall to lecture people on what they should think. Morons.

    • seafoid
      July 26, 2014, 2:01 pm

      Dermer is out of his depth. Sending him out is the equivalent of those 1980s personnel carriers the idf used last week that are so easy to destroy.

      • just
        July 26, 2014, 2:05 pm

        they might as well send out Joan Rivers…another lying shvitzer.

      • Citizen
        July 26, 2014, 3:02 pm

        @ just
        Yeah, she was all over national TV repeating the Palestinians “started it.” She’s an old dumb, and ignorant woman who has made a lucrative career out of her nasty remarks about people, all her own freudian projections. She’s old school Zionist apologist, a la, you goys “quit picking on the Hebrews!” And her daughter is her clone.

      • seafoid
        July 26, 2014, 4:29 pm

        She’s like ha Dersh. Old school and on the way out. Israel will really miss them, especially the way Israel is going.

  3. traintosiberia
    July 26, 2014, 1:51 pm

    Like Holocaust is still showcased implicitly and explicitly when Israel enters the Hasabara Zone every time they want to kill more Iranian or Syrians saying ” never again “

  4. seafoid
    July 26, 2014, 1:59 pm

    Israel chooses to kill large numbers of civilians. It makes sense in Hebrew but doesn’t translate so well to American english. Oren knows that. This clusterfuck was chosen by Israel and has now run out of its control as gideon rachman observed in today’s Financial Times.

    • John Douglas
      July 26, 2014, 2:34 pm

      But you have to understand, Israel had no choice, Hamas made them do it. In a tiny crowded territory, from which Israel blocks any exit, Hamas cleverly hid their weapons rather than locating them in obvious, open spaces. When Israel’s humane, pinpoint carpet bombing slaughter’s Gaza’s children in their places of refuge, Hamas must take the blame. But no, Hamas engages in Public Relations. (Imagine that, a fighting force with a PR campaign. Israel would never stoop so low.) Hamas doesn’t bomb and shoot the reporters who show the massacres – that’s their insidious PR strategy. Hamas made us kill the children. That’s the line that Dermer and Oren are selling?

      • seafoid
        July 26, 2014, 2:58 pm

        Israel can’t afford another 2 weeks of PR death. The memes are not working. Even in the US. Only republicans and jews left listening.

      • Citizen
        July 26, 2014, 3:09 pm

        Well, the truth is most Americans are not paying attention as they are looking for jobs, something beyond flipping burgers, and the people in places like Detroit are wondering why they’ve had their utilities cut off because of former tenants or owners. The dead in Gaza stats reveal it’s as if over a million Americans have been killed. US TV news is not conveying the reality in Gaza to this US TV news audience.

      • Kay24
        July 26, 2014, 3:26 pm

        In a nutshell, it seems the children who were blown up, and the children who have died, or are horribly injured, are the fault of Hamas. NOT those who pointed those weapons, or ignored the civilians, and sent their bombs into homes, schools, mosques and other civilian structures.

        This irrational blame on the victims is getting lame. Dermer and Oren look like dolts feigning false outrage. The world is opening it’s eyes to the brutality and crimes by Israel, on the real victims.
        The Palestinians have every right to insist they want their rights, the occupation ended, and the blockade removed. They are willing to die for that, knowing otherwise, Israel will eventually kill them in some way or the other.
        The nazis of our time. The zionists of Israel. God’s chosen, more like horse manure!

    • ahbrooks
      July 27, 2014, 11:24 am

      Can you link to that story? (Rachman in Financial Times) Thanks

  5. Kay24
    July 26, 2014, 2:00 pm

    I think Dermer and Oren were badly bruised after this episode. Karl Penhaul was brilliant, when he from Gaza, spoke out against this pathetic attempt by the esteemed ambassadors for Israel, to intimidate the media, by accusing them of bias.
    They obviously are furious their crimes are shown all over the world. In fact
    Oren even mentioned that Israel is condemned by the world, after seeing these horrible pictures. But once again, it show these Israelis can lie, exaggerate, and even deflect, but they cannot fight the truth. I only fear for the safety of all journalists over there, Israel is know to make deliberate mistakes.
    It was a great segment. Erin Burnett was also a great host.
    As I mentioned earlier, I hope these brave media personnel have their jobs tomorrow.

  6. yonah fredman
    July 26, 2014, 2:15 pm

    Michael Oren, Dermer’s successor

    minor error. Michael Oren was Dermer’s predecessor.

    • Philip Weiss
      July 26, 2014, 2:46 pm

      Thanks Yonah. Will fix now. And our exchange will be the only record of my error!

      • talknic
        July 27, 2014, 12:20 am

        You should stick to best practices. Note the correction in the article … not everyone reads the comments. Ziocolonistas will use anything against you no matter how trivial it might seem.

      • Janet Jupiter
        July 27, 2014, 12:27 am

        You did not process Phil’s comment correctly

    • oldgeezer
      July 26, 2014, 9:11 pm

      Are the two mutually exclusive?

      Dermer is clearly not up to the role required of the disinformation ministry. He reminds me of our own, John Baird. A lot I could say but let’s summarize at “not too bright”.

  7. mikeo
    July 26, 2014, 2:16 pm

    Jon Snow’s latest blog

    Very moving – he has put himself at great personal risk (he is the C4 news anchor, not usually a field reporter) to show people the truth.

    I’m not surprised he wept on the way home.

    Imagine what he will say about the Israelis in his memoir when he retires.

    Not satisfied with calling the Brazilians “diplomatic dwarves” now they have taunted them about their World Cup loss

    I think some revision is in order: How to Win Friends and Influence People

    Israel – another day another enemy made.

    • seafoid
      July 26, 2014, 2:51 pm

      That is a keeper. Snow gets it. Yossi Israeli and his American enablers don’t. And it is a cancer. France is on the verge of importing it seriously.

    • just
      July 26, 2014, 3:11 pm

      Thanks for sharing. His honesty had me weeping in kind.

      It is unbearable.

    • Kay24
      July 26, 2014, 3:35 pm

      Written with deep and true feeling. One cannot but help feel very, very sad, to read his story, feel the pain suffered by helpless people, and realize that an experienced journalist feels just like we do, but having seen the brutality and pain, makes us feel that impact. Jon Snow is a great journalist, and is not afraid to report the truth.
      If only our media could interview an Israeli official (Regev) just like he did.
      He was refreshingly challenging.

    • oldgeezer
      July 26, 2014, 9:19 pm

      Maybe it’s just me but I’ve always felt that most hasbara talking points are things I would expect from a young child. They made me do it. Everyone else does it. Everyone else can, why can’t I? You’re picking on me. He’s a meanie. They don’t like me. You have one and I want one too. It’s not fair. Dadddy says it’s mine. I dont’ wanna share.

      Sometimes they actually use those words although often it’s merely a paraphrasing of them.

      • Janet Jupiter
        July 27, 2014, 12:28 am

        No Oldgeezer. Your comprehension is that of a child

      • Donald
        July 27, 2014, 5:20 pm

        “Your comprehension is that of a child”

        No, oldgeezer has it right. War propaganda typically involves the evasion of responsibility for one’s own actions and is very similar to the reasoning of spoiled children. The US does this too. Probably every country which violates or has violated human rights has done the same. It’s all the other guy’s fault.

      • Kay24
        July 27, 2014, 8:48 am

        That is how typically Israel behaves. Like a small whiny, spoilt brat, who need constant attention, and reminders just how wonder they are.
        Let us not forget it is the brat that wants to be the only kid in the block that has new shiny toys (nuclear weapons). The moment it senses the Arab kid may have, or on the way to getting some, he gets big daddy to bomb the hell out of them.

    • Pixel
      July 27, 2014, 5:01 am

      (Thanks – so – much for the link, Mikeo.)

      The “money shot” in Snow’s blog is this:

      It is humankind’s most grievous cancer, for its cells infect conflicts in every corner of the world.

      I’ve been heartened to recently believe that there may be at least a few people here who understand what Snow is alluding to. That he understands is no surprise at all.

      Rabbit hole, anyone?

    • Tuyzentfloot
      July 27, 2014, 5:51 am

      re: Jon Snow’s latest blog. Yes, moving but still quite safe. It’s not to get him into a lot of trouble.

  8. HarryLaw
    July 26, 2014, 2:40 pm

    This slaughter is official Israeli policy, called the Dahiya doctrine, here is how an Israeli official described it in 2009.”Israel has sought the political, as well as military, emasculation of Hamas through the widespread destruction of Gaza’s infrastructure and economy.
    This is known as the “Dahiya Doctrine,” named after a suburb of Beirut that was almost leveled during Israel’s attack on Lebanon in summer 2006. The doctrine was encapsulated in a phrase used by Dan Halutz, Israel’s chief of staff, at the time. He said Lebanon’s bombardment would “turn back the clock 20 years.”
    The commanding officer in Israel’s south, Yoav Galant, echoed those sentiments on the Gaza offensive’s first day: the aim, he said, was to “send Gaza decades into the past.”
    Beyond these sound-bites, Gadi Eisenkot, the head of Israel’s northern command, clarified in October the practical aspects of the strategy: “What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on. We will apply disproportionate force on it and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases. This is not a recommendation. This is a plan.”
    In the interview, Gen Eisenkot was discussing the next round of hostilities with Hizballah. However, the doctrine was intended for use in Gaza, too”.In the interview, Gen Eisenkot was discussing the next round of hostilities with Hizballah. However, the doctrine was intended for use in Gaza, too.

    Gabriel Siboni, a colonel in the reserves, set out the new “security concept” in an article published by Tel Aviv University’s Institute of National Security Studies two months before the assault on Gaza. Conventional military strategies for waging war against states and armies, he wrote, could not defeat sub-national resistance movements, such as Hizballah and Hamas, that have deep roots in the local population.
    The goal instead was to use “disproportionate force,” thereby “inflicting damage and meting out punishment to an extent that will demand long and expensive reconstruction processes.”
    Siboni identified the chief target of Israel’s rampages as “decision makers and the power elite,” including “economic interests and the centers of civilian power that support the [enemy] organization.” http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-dahiya-doctrine-comes-gaza/8006

    • Sumud
      July 26, 2014, 2:51 pm

      Dahiya is exactly what I thought of as the pictures began to emerge from Shuja’iya today HarryLaw, it’s unmistakeable.

      Disappointing that most journalists don’t seem to have heard of it and aren’t making the connection.

      • seafoid
        July 26, 2014, 2:55 pm

        Israel has no security as long as Gaza is besieged. The next time the bots bomb gaza and take out a few operatives, gaza can aim at the airport. No rules works both ways.

      • Marnie
        July 26, 2014, 3:09 pm

        Israel is an open air prison for Gaza and a mental institution for the criminally insane for the rest of the country.

    • justicewillprevail
      July 26, 2014, 3:05 pm

      Exactly right. I was wondering when someone, particularly a reporter, would point this out. Cast Lead the same, when the Goldstone report concluded the evidence was consistent with the application of this evil, ground zero policy. And now the same again. The politicians lie and squirm, repeating the same empty phrases, whilst the military ignores what they say and applies the ruthless policy of levelling every area where they suspect the ‘enemy’ is. Which probable qualifies the whole of Gaza. The real decision makes are unelected, unaccountable military planners – which only points out what a sham israeli democracy is, not to mention their (un)free press. I look forward to John Snow putting the evidence for the consistent use of this Pol Pot strategy to the idiotic fool Regev.

  9. bilal a
    July 26, 2014, 2:41 pm

    Jason Ditz updates your story , mendacity. wonder if this gets on cnn.

    UN: Israel Never Informed Us of Plans to Attack Gaza School
    http://news.antiwar.com/2014/07/25/un-israel-never-informed-us-of-plans-to-attack-gaza-school/

    Please also note that the Oren charge is classic blood libel.The resistance hates Israel so much it will kill their neighbors children, but with a new twist: they will kill their own wives, children, extended families [Israel targets the homes of Hamas political leaders]

  10. Stephen Shenfield
    July 26, 2014, 2:42 pm

    If Hamas strategy is to “drag Israel” into Gaza and “get Israel to kill large numbers of civilians” and prominent Israelis like Ambassador Oren are aware of the fact, then why does Israel walk into the trap set for it? It could defeat Hamas strategy by leaving Gaza alone, lifting the siege, and not killing civilians.

    • seafoid
      July 26, 2014, 2:53 pm

      Israel will have to lift the siege. Ben Gurion airport is too important to do otherwise. 32 dead soldiers, tunnels and BGA shut – it was a nightmare week for israeli deterrence.

      • a blah chick
        July 26, 2014, 2:59 pm

        They’re now admitting to about 40 killed but I think the real number is over 60.

      • seafoid
        July 26, 2014, 3:16 pm

        Israel has now recognised 40 dead soldiers . None of the initial aims of the operation achieved.

      • kalithea
        July 27, 2014, 12:59 am

        Oh yeah, they really suffered those Zionists.

  11. Citizen
    July 26, 2014, 2:49 pm

    Americans don’t get it because of the Hasbara news they get. If what’s been happening in Gaza happened here, going on 160000 would be dead, murdered by Israel, and over a million would be wounded: https://twitter.com/RaniaKhalek/status/493081480932098048/photo/1

    And Israeli officials have now stated publicly that HAMAS was not responsible for the 3 dead teenagers; rather, it was a separate Palestinians rogue “single cell.”

  12. adele
    July 26, 2014, 2:51 pm

    From the Jon Snow episode where Dermer got trounced and now to this latest episode at CNN where they walked away with a black eye, it is painfully obvious that the Israeli spin masters didn’t calculate into their PR model any push back from the media. They thought some slick charisma and perfect English was all that was needed to keep the smoke screen going.

    It is an absolute delight to watch them unraveling. They are in panic mode right now (I can just imagine all the white papers, proposals and powerpoint presentations that are right this moment being drawn up) and scrambling about for a winning strategy but so obvious that they will in no way recover during this round. They are no match for the optics and social media.

    Speaking of social media, did anybody see this crude propaganda by the Israeli Embassy in Ireland that they tweeted out last night? Unbelievable that a diplomatic institution would actually press the send button on this, which they since deleted. Here’s a screenshot — http://imgur.com/uvpKy0S

    • just
      July 26, 2014, 3:42 pm

      wow. that’s so typical of Israel, but it’s still stupefying.

      • seafoid
        July 26, 2014, 4:14 pm

        The dublin ambassador is an indocrinated moron. I bet he was Lieberman’s pick.

      • just
        July 26, 2014, 4:22 pm

        Apparently so:

        “Israel condemned over ‘European terror’ propaganda tweets
        ……..
        Last week the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) tweeted a doctored image which showed the Houses of Parliament under attack from a barrage of rockets.

        Andy Slaughter, a Labour MP and secretary of Britain-Palestine All-Party Parliamentary Group, said at the time: “It seems crass at best. The Israelis are past masters at propaganda. This will bring it home to Members that they have lost all sense of perspective and are out of control.”

        It was not immediately clear where the doctored image used by Israel’s Dublin diplomats originated. Nor was it clear who tweeted it.

        Israel’s ambassador to Ireland, Boaz Modai, told the Telegraph that he could not comment because “we are now in the middle of a war and I have other things to deal with”.

        But it is not the first time staff at the Dublin embassy have got themselves into hot water while using social media. In December 2012 officials were forced to remove an update on Facebook which suggested that if Jesus lived in the modern world he would “probably end up being lynched in Bethlehem by hostile Palestinians.”

        Paul Hirschson, a spokesman for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, told the Telegraph that ministry officials had in the past spoken with Mr Modai about the social media strategy pursued by the Irish embassy.

        He added that the Foreign Ministry took a very laissez faire attitude towards the social media output of its ambassadorial staff. “Israel encourages its diplomats to have very personal Twitter accounts,” he said.

        “This particular item was not part of the official Ministry of Foreign Affairs campaign,” he added. “I didn’t personally like the approach.” ”

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10992936/Israel-condemned-over-European-terror-propaganda-tweets.html

      • a blah chick
        July 26, 2014, 4:33 pm

        Before Boaz “Constrictor” Modai became an ambassador there was a problem with one of the women who worked in his office. Apparently she was getting annoying phone calls, someone calling then hanging up. Turns out that it was Bo making the calls. Seems he thought this woman was spreading rumors that he was having an affair and he wasn’t and it was stressing him out and he couldn’t sleep. So, he decided that if he wasn’t getting any sleep neither would she. Yep, he’s ambassadorial material all right.

      • adele
        July 26, 2014, 5:01 pm

        These press & social media faux-pas’ are truly indicative of just how unprepared and unpolished (in another post seafoid called them undomesticated with his usual straight-to-the point clarity) many of these Israeli gov’t representatives are when dealing with a non-Israeli public.

        Not that we should be complaining, these crass graphics and evident lies are helping the Palestinian cause so more power to the the Israeli spokespeople with their hasbara armies and social media promoted ads.

        The poetic justice of it all is that the very policies of occupation and regional destabilization that Israel enforces/promotes have forced many Palestinians and Arabs to immigrate westward, and in turn this new generation of educated Palestinians and Arab youth have begun to use social media to their advantage. Israel’s narrative for the first time is being seriously challenged.

    • oldgeezer
      July 26, 2014, 9:28 pm

      I saw that earlier today. I’m sick and tired of years and years of Israel hate mongering against Islam. I have no truck with the jihadists but the obvious effort to slander over a billion people makes me sick. For that matter I’m pure atheist anyway (raised xian). Of course they partner with the racist white right wing in doing so.

    • Pixel
      July 27, 2014, 5:12 am

      WTF!

  13. libra
    July 26, 2014, 3:03 pm

    “Hamas are to blame but it’s the whole world’s fault for failing stop them.” said Ambassador Dermer.

  14. Justpassingby
    July 26, 2014, 3:18 pm

    Israel and its supporters are a terror cult.

    Oren would blame the girl if she got raped.

    • oldgeezer
      July 26, 2014, 9:29 pm

      Not fair. It would depend on the religion. If she was Muslim she forced perp to rape her.

  15. lysias
    July 26, 2014, 3:25 pm

    You made me kill myself!

  16. DaBakr
    July 26, 2014, 3:43 pm

    I have seen CNN reporting and its been generally two sided coverage. That Dermer would like for CNN to spout Israeli war time propaganda every 2 hours is another matter. Just when I was reading this I went over to CNN and saw the Anderson guy asking point blank to their -on-the-spot reporter, “Is it really true that there are NO bomb shelters for civilians in Gaza? Is it true that…Does Hamas really no build any bomb shelters for its people and if so, why not?” And Karl ____[?] answered that ‘reporters have seen the tunnels, they are not just holes in the sand…substantial amounts of cement,…” and he goes on to basically sum up the Israeli position that the embargo agaisnt building material was to stop tunnels. So, in light of this and other reports from Gaza I don’t see why Oren or Dermer should be complaining so loudly. I guess they expect US msm to be an extension of IDF media.

    So-while sites like MW function as de facto pro-resistance/pro-Palestinian/and in this case pro-Hamas propaganda support there are plenty of pro-Zionist/pro-Israel publications that can get out the pro-IDF message. I am even starting to think that despite the hullaballu on each side -Worldwide readers can fairly assess what they think is going on here and if they don’t already have pre-conceived bias or support for one side or the other-can make judgements without the hyperbole of the Israeli Ambassador , Oren, Nasrallah, The Masked Hamas Spokesman, or other propaganda outlets including the hysterical and pathetic UN commission who’s (Arab block influenced) decisions are about as predictable as the GA.

    I would tell a ME novice if they want to get a fair and widespread view on the conflict watch a mix of IDF TV,* Democracy Now, Mondoweiss, ElderofZiyon. And I would say the blog sites are probably the best source for news links and commentary.
    *you can quibble about the ‘evil zionist army’ but in general IDF sticks to military regiment in reporting deaths and they havn’t questioned the Hamas numbers as of yet and obviously havn’t exaggerated their own deaths. They may promote highly enthusiastic reports of their successes at times but they are tempered by Israeli press who usually expose IDK dis-info before other international press.

    • DaBakr
      July 26, 2014, 4:08 pm

      also-has anyone thought that the tunnels in Gaza are merely a distraction for dozens of other tunnels from the WB across the green line? wouldn;t that be a bigger surprise then the ones Hamas has launched so far? It is not as if Palestinians have never launched spectacularly successful attacks against Israel before.

      • oldgeezer
        July 26, 2014, 9:33 pm

        If I had a choice between a tunnel to attack or a bomb shelter I’d opt for the tunnel. The bomb shelter merely gives me a place to hide through decades of oppression and dispossession and never gives me an opportunity for freedom.

        Obviously my first choice would be for a just peace but no GoI has ever had that offer sincerely on the table.

        And regardless of shelters this immediate conflict was yet another conflict of choice for Israel. The ceasefire of 2012 had been holding according to their own officials.

      • Donald
        July 26, 2014, 11:50 pm

        “has anyone thought that the tunnels in Gaza are merely a distraction for dozens of other tunnels from the WB across the green line?”

        That would be a truly spectacular intelligence failure, though that said, I’m also very surprised at how many Gazan tunnels went undetected. And this is one criticism of Hamas (there are some others) that I share–they should not have been wasting whatever concrete they could smuggle in on tunnels. That doesn’t justify the blockade or anything Israel has done, of course, but there’s no reason why blame has to be zero sum.

      • tree
        July 27, 2014, 12:58 am

        …they should not have been wasting whatever concrete they could smuggle in on tunnels.

        Donald

        It seems to me that a lot of, for lack of a better term, “first-world thinking” went into the idea that the tunnels require a lot of cement. I don’t think they do. Soil cement (which uses somewhere around an 8:1 soil to cement mixture) could be used for a few inches to reinforce the opening, and rammed earth, requiring no cement, could also be used for stabilization. We aren’t talking about a project commissioned by the US Corp of Army Engineers here. There are other ways to build tunnels that don’t require vast amounts of cement and rebar.

        As for Israel being surprised at the number of tunnels, I’m not sure whether one should believe it. It seems to me that “terror tunnels” have become the new scare word in Israel, so Israeli officials claiming there are a lot more tunnels than anticipated is gauged to up the Israeli public fear factor, as well as excuse both the continuing killing and destruction, and the failures of the IDF in attaining their stated missions.

      • Donald
        July 27, 2014, 1:11 am

        “t seems to me that a lot of, for lack of a better term, “first-world thinking” went into the idea that the tunnels require a lot of cement. I”

        Could be. The NYT put out a figure of 600,000 tons, I think, which they got from the Israelis. That was rather stunning if true. I’d sit down and do a rough calculation of the volume and mass of earth removed (and then try to do an even rougher guesstimate of the amount of cement needed if one had a thickness of X around the circumference, but I’d have to look up the estimated number and length and I’m going to sleep now.

        Even just the digging of these without the Israelis somehow knowing about it surprises me. Like every American boy I saw and loved “The Great Escape” on TV, but this is amazing. Possibly there’s some lying going on, of course. But I don’t know.

      • oldgeezer
        July 27, 2014, 1:50 am

        I’ve lost the link now but there was an article (in jpost or the times) discussing how the government knew about the tunnels a year ago. It doesn’t say all of them. It does note, however, that the tunnels were visible to US satellites. So I rather doubt they’re suprised.

        Assuming they’re known I don’t see why they need to find the entrances or how they plan to dig down through the rubble to get to the entrances.

        I will see if I can find the link.

      • tree
        July 27, 2014, 3:15 am

        600,000 tons sounds pretty ridiculous, doing a quick back of the envelope calculation. That’s 600,000 times 2000(lbs in a ton) divided by 3850 (the average weight in pounds of a cubic yard of concrete) which equals approximately 312,000 cubic yards of concrete. The Holland Tunnel, with 4 lanes of traffic, 2 tubes each 1.6 miles long, 29-1/2 feet wide and 12-1/2 feet tall used 130,000 cubic yards of concrete to line the tunnel, according to the internet sources I found.

        So 600,000 tons of concrete could build the equivalent of two and a half 4 lane Holland Tunnels. Highly unlikely that man-made tunnels, in a strip 5 miles wide by 25 miles long, could use anywhere near that amount, even if there were 60 of them. And of course whatever concrete lining there is, if any, would be nowhere as thick as the lining on the Holland Tunnels. If you want to actually do the calcs on the estimates of amount of concrete needed, Donald, that would be great but I think you’ll find the Israeli figure is a gross exaggeration.

        It just sounds like Israeli talking points meant to strongly imply that Hamas used all the building materials allowed in to build tunnels, so therefore the Israeli blockade of building materials is justified. The usual Israeli bullshit.

      • Donald
        July 27, 2014, 12:45 pm

        Thanks tree. I’ll go metric. Assume cement is about 2 tons per cubic meter. (Metric or American tons or exact density figures don’t matter for rough estimates).
        Assume 60 tunnels. The average length I don’t know, but assume 2000 meters or a little over a mile. Average cross section of concrete at a given location I’ll call A.

        Then volume needed is 60 x 2000 x A or 120,000 A. To use 600,000 tons or about 300,000 cubic meters, A would have to be 2.5 square meters of cement. It does seem very high. Maybe there are more tunnels or the cross section is huge or they’re longer than I assumed or the figure of 600,000 is wrong.

        I just looked at Sumud’s link and they say “up to a kilometer” and the skin does look pretty thin. So 300,000 cubic meters seems even less plausible.

      • Double Double
        July 27, 2014, 4:43 pm

        Small tunnels would use proportionally more concrete than larger ones, assuming the same constructions standards. Of course, I know that would be a false assumption in this case.

        The whole “Gaza bomb shelter” thing…ugh. Zionist colonies have them because they only need prepare for one or two direct hits from Palestinian rockets which might each take out one wall of their house. A bomb shelter cannot help you if your entire neighbourhood is reduced to thousands of tons of rubble. I wonder if Anderson still subscribes to “duck and cover”, too.

        One could make an argument for using concrete and other materials to rebuild housing instead of tunnels, but it would be a weak argument given that IDF (IOF, if you prefer) attacks could bring those down at any time, thus “wasting” those resources anyway. Strategically, it benefits resistance to force IDF (IOF) to spend time, resources and blood hunting and destroying tunnels.

        Unfortunately, it also gives Zionist forces hours of video that “news” media can fill screens with, absent real journalistic footage from the combat zone.

      • tree
        July 27, 2014, 8:13 pm

        More pictures of tunnels here(I googled “photo Hamas tunnel” under Google Images):

        https://www.google.com/search?q=photo+hamas+tunnel&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=rI_VU5rCO4HuoASmi4LABw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1093&bih=542

        They are mostly quite small, with only one person at a time able to walk through them, and some of them require stooping or even crawling. Some of them are reinforced with thin concrete slabs and some of them have no concrete or have only intermittent concrete, which is what I would have expected.

        There was one tunnel image that looked a bit more sophisticated, and had square sides. It turns out that one was a “training tunnel” for the US Army.

        Again, I think that the Israeli government is using the tunnels as another propaganda weapon, falsely claiming that Hamas used all the cement to make tunnels, and thus justifying blockading building materials that Gaza needs to rebuild all the civilian infrastructure that Israel has destroyed.

      • Sumud
        July 27, 2014, 2:41 am

        Donald & tree – you can see a photo of an exposed tunnel in this article here:

        http://blogs.forward.com/jj-goldberg/202874/gaza-tunnels-how-they-work-what-israel-knew/#.U9QqBRmS6Zl.twitter

        It’s quite a thin skin, only an inch or two and all pre-cast panels, so the operation looks quite streamlined and economical. It’s an interesting read, I recommend it.

        I think they’ve done a tremendous job with the tunnels and have dealt a real blow to the Israelis with them. At this stage about 1050 Palestinians have been killed and around 36 Israelis IDF by the resistance, with Hamas claiming more that the IDF had yet to admit to.

        Cast Lead it was 1400 and 6, basically a bloodbath and designed to restore the IDFs reputation and ego after their humiliation in Lebanon in 2006. I think the IDF will think twice before it ever attacks Gaza again, and we may yet see the blockade lifted. This would not have been possible without the tunnels.

      • seafoid
        July 27, 2014, 3:32 am

        Sumud

        There is an article at haaretz called What the US military can and cannot learn from the IDF’s Gaza operation by Noah Smith. I can’t do links on this tablet.

        Smith says Israel is the world’s war laboratory and that mowing the lawn is key to this. But the absence of a political carrot for the Palestinians doesn’t seem to have registered as a problem over at the kirya. Big questions over them and the politicians this week but there is no opposition of course.

        Zionism seems to have reached the logical end of Jabotinskyism. That iron wall thinking never assumed the brown people would out think the chosen and hit them in the airport gonads.

      • tree
        July 27, 2014, 3:40 am

        Thanks, Sumud. Have you seen any photos of the inside of a tunnel?Reinforcement at an entrance is always going to have to be greater than reinforcement along the length. At about 6 inches of concrete and an 8 foot diameter hole that would put it at about half a cubic yard of concrete per foot of length, at most. (Actually less than that since the floor would not need reinforcement.) 312,000 cubic yards would equal 624,000 lineal feet of concrete casing, or nearly 120 miles of tunnels, in an area of 139 square miles. Yup, Israeli concrete figures are bullshit.

        And its hard to tell from the photo but that “concrete” may well be a soil cement mixture.

      • just
        July 27, 2014, 3:43 am

        Here it is:

        “An old joke that made the rounds amongst United States military officers involved with doctrine research went, “At first, the Israeli army admired the American army, then the American army admired the Israeli army, then they admired each other, then they both realized neither one knew what they were doing.””

        http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.607315

    • Pixel
      July 27, 2014, 5:21 am

      @dbkr

      It may be just me but I’ve never thought of MW as being pro-resistance.

      I’ve always considered it part of the resistance.

      • just
        July 27, 2014, 7:25 am

        I don’t think that you are alone in your thought, Pixel.

      • Walid
        July 27, 2014, 7:55 am

        Just, a very thin line separates those here that are pro-Palestinian from those that are anti-Zionist. I think of myself as being pro-Palestinian rather than anti-Zionist but I feel that most Jews here are anti-Zionist much more than pro-Palestinian.

      • just
        July 27, 2014, 8:09 am

        I appreciate that Walid.

        I am solidly anti- Occupation, genocide, massacre, and terrorism. So, I am pro- Palestinian and pro- resistance.

        btw, Zionism stinks to high heaven.

      • MHughes976
        July 27, 2014, 8:40 am

        I consider Zionism to be a claim to ‘birthright in the Holy Land’ exclusively for people who meet certain criteria of ancestry or religion. I think that claim is false but until recently scarcely challenged in the West: so those of us who see that it is false need, in season and out of season, to keep talking. So I’m anti-Zionist. I also think that the claim could never have been put into effect without extreme and continuing cruelty, mainly inflicted on Palestinians, so I’m pro-Palestinian in the sense of being distressed by what they suffer. But I try to keep my emotional reactions and my use of emotionally charged words to the minimum, so my ‘pro’ sentiments may be weaker than they should be. Zionists tend to say to the likes of me ‘You hate us’, but it’s important to me that my primary point is not to hate them – overall, perhaps, many of them may be better human beings than me – but to disagree with them and to say as well as I can why they are wrong.

      • seafoid
        July 27, 2014, 8:48 am

        I think Zionism is a deluded ideology. It’s just not coherent any more and the hasbara is pathetic. There is no honesty to it whether it’s peres, regev, livni, dersh or shmuley. I ‘m for rights for everyone in the Zionist space and I don’t see how Zionism can deliver that. I feel sorry for Yossi Israeli too. I can’t imagine what it is like to come from a country that doesn’t know who it really is.

      • Walid
        July 27, 2014, 9:22 am

        “It’s just not coherent any more …”

        Was coherent at one point of time and if so, what time was that? What Zionism has become is amply evident from my pro-Palestinian viewpoint but what is not is how it started. Was it as a benevolent movement that changed course along the way or was it evil from the start?

      • yonah fredman
        July 27, 2014, 9:38 am

        Walid- Zionism, as in the movement to “secure” the Jewish future by acquiring rights in the land of Zion, almost always paid insufficient compassion and human thought towards the indigenous. Those that paid “sufficient” compassion were much more the exception than the rule.

        Thus for most Zionists, it was a move for a specific purpose for the endangered Jews, and thus was for the preservation of the self, both individual and group, but was not benevolent for the indigenous.

        IN 2014 the phrase “endangered Jews” might not sound real, but in 1881, 1897 and 1917 and 1933, to pick a few years (not at random) it was something unfortunately quite real.

      • just
        July 27, 2014, 9:39 am

        Any ideology other than humanitarianism is bound to fail because there will always be ‘extremists’ and selfish politicians. It’s the unfortunate aspect of being ‘human’. The idea of creating a safe place for the survivors of the Holocaust was a good and noble and necessary idea. The fact of establishing that safe place at the incredible expense of the indigenous Palestinians was and is wrong! I can guarantee you that the Palestinians would have welcomed the refugees from the Holocaust with open arms…instead, the Palestinians were met with venom and terrorism and thrown out of their homes and freedom and security. Israel’s venom and terrorism continues to this very day and minute.

        Zionists need to look inward. So far, they haven’t.

      • Walid
        July 27, 2014, 9:43 am

        Just, but the Zionists were around and had their eyes on Palestine long before the Holocaust, or are you saying the Holocaust was the turning point for Zionism?

      • just
        July 27, 2014, 9:52 am

        Zionism is, first and foremost, a colonial ideology. I am also anti- colonialism.

        I think that the Holocaust jettisoned Zionism/Zionists into a vicious movement rather than just an idea.

      • yonah fredman
        July 27, 2014, 11:26 am

        Walid- Although the Holocaust was not the necessary destination of European Jew hatred, your comments seem to treat it as if european Jew hatred did not exist until the Holocaust. For someone who has read as much history as you, such comments are surely malicious rather than based upon real ignorance.

      • MHughes976
        July 27, 2014, 12:17 pm

        I’m now commenting on comments below this and perhaps commenting on things that seem secondary amid calamity and destruction.
        Coherence, a logical property of a set of propositions, arising because there is no conflict between them, is a permanent property, not one that can be gained or lost.
        The idea of Zionism before the 1905 Congress was that Jewish people deserved land under their special and permanent sovereignty either somewhere to be determined or (better) in the Holy Land. This was, whichever alternative is considered, manifestly contrary to human right, since it excluded at least some people, living somewhere, from sovereignty over the place where they lived. After 1905 only the second alternative remained on the table, directing exclusion and injustice at the non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine. There never was a form of Zionism which was or could have been compatible with any idea of human rights for all, and therefore capable of putting into effect without massive suffering and cruelty.
        Terrible events, like those of WW2, cannot change human rights but only remind us of the need for them. So those events could not justify Zionism, though they did play a big part in eliminating effective opposition to it and indeed convinced many people that a light to the nations had at last come, or at least that there was at last a reasonable and humane solution to the problems caused by Christian injustice towards Jewish people. Or at least that a practical and not too inhumane way to develop the ME had been found. I was of that opinion, which I thought was the only way to think about the ME in moderate terms. More fool me.

  17. hophmi
    July 26, 2014, 5:03 pm

    “I think that any reporter and any of our colleagues would believe that it was obscene to suggest that we are showing the bodies of wounded, the dead and the dying, to make headlines. ”

    Oh, PLEASE. Penhaul must be kidding. There is no question that this stuff sells, whether it’s in Gaza, Iraq, Rwanda, or Somalia.

    If people can’t acknowledge that #Hamas benefits from the showing of these civilian casualties on television, then either they’re stupid, or they’re extraordinarily naive.

    • just
      July 26, 2014, 5:10 pm

      “this stuff sells”… that’s so sick and twisted. These people are being slaughtered.

      Stop the massacre/genocide/terrorism, and you can rest easy that you and yours will “benefit”.

      • hophmi
        July 26, 2014, 5:18 pm

        It’s not sick and twisted at all. And I watched the clip. Penhaul was on his high horse responding to a straw man. It is very clearly Hamas’s strategy to build international support for the Palestinians by drawing Israel into conflict where there will inevitably be civilians killed. Journalists go where the fighting is. Oren didn’t claim that journalists were showing dead bodies because they wanted headlines. He claimed that Hamas wanted to draw Israelis in to kill civilians to make headlines. He’s blaming Hamas, not the media.

      • just
        July 26, 2014, 5:31 pm

        Total bs, just like Oren. You are blaming Hamas for the massacre? Really?

        What did Netanyahu do when the Unity government was announced? What did Netanyahu do when the 3 teens were killed? (beyond lying) What did Netanyahu do in his rampage? And yet you and Israel blame Hamas for resisting the pogrom!

        You can choose the side of lies or you can choose the truth. You’ve obviously chosen Oren and Co.– liars.

      • oldgeezer
        July 26, 2014, 9:36 pm

        ” by drawing Israel into conflict where ”

        Which part of Israel’s own officials stating that Hamas had been abiding by the 2012 ceasefire don’t you get?

        Geeze…. Israel … A land of no responsibility or accountability.

      • Donald
        July 27, 2014, 12:08 am

        Hophmi, you need to spread your cynicism around a little more. I would not be surprised if some Hamas figures think that way, as it is often claimed that guerilla movements try to do this. I don’t know if it’s actually been proven, but it might be the case. Hamas used to send people out on suicide bombing missions against civilians, so I can certainly believe bad things about whoever comes up with ideas of that sort. Ruthlessness is a common trait with guerilla leaders, even the Zionist ones back in the day. Certainly it’s true that Hamas is going to play up its civilian dead, just as Israel does, for political leverage.

        On the other hand, this cynicism is clearly false if applied to the average Hamas member–that “militant” who died with his family when Israel blew up the house surely didn’t mean that to happen.

        But it also seems clear that Israel practices the Dahiya doctrine in its wars wikipedia article on Dahiya doctrine

      • seafoid
        July 27, 2014, 3:38 am

        Hoph is wasting his breath. The IDF know that dead babies are a problem in the media sector when the lawn is mowed. . They also know there is no political will to change anything so they have to kill the kids. It would appear the IDF knows nothing about Israel’s international image. Or doesn’t rate it as a risk. The stuff that is assumed to be not worth worrying about is often the most dangerous to an institution. Who would have thought US house prices would fall in 2007? Not Lehman Brothers.

        I think the main IDF weakness was to assume the operation would be over in a few days. Israel doesn’t have the ability to provide hasbara cover fro more than a week. Big anti zionist protests all ovr europe this weekend. Did anyone in the IDF join the dots in planning ?

      • Walid
        July 27, 2014, 5:19 am

        Applying what it viciously calls the “Dahiya Doctrine” to Gaza is a piece of cake for Israel. It gets to test all kinds of new weapons on human guinea pigs and besides, all the fuel used and the munitions dumped on Gaza are free since the tab for both is picked up by the US.

      • seafoid
        July 27, 2014, 6:51 am

        The problem with military fantasies like the Dahiya doctrine is that they are useless if the people do not support them.The yanks know this from Iraq. Israel tries to frame Gaza as terrorism when it is in fact self determination. Iraq was the beginning of the end for the Likud. So many chickens are coming home to roost now.

      • peeesss
        July 28, 2014, 1:59 am

        Oren ,” claimed that Hamas wanted to draw Israelis in to kill civilians to make headlines.” So , apparently according to Oren, Israel came into Gaza to kill civilians but blame Hamas for making them do just that “to make headlines.” That doesn’t say much for the Israeli’s “concern for the sanctity of life”, in particular, innocent civilian life.

      • Justpassingby
        July 27, 2014, 3:07 pm

        I think hophmi should offer the world leading scientists his brain when he dies, so world can see the result of pro-israelis as a warning example.

    • justicewillprevail
      July 26, 2014, 5:19 pm

      You’re the stupid one, if your comprehension of the effect of these shocking images is so biased that you think it is some kind of political game. Only paranoid zionists are so enmeshed in their own fictions that they come up with these ludicrous claims. OTOH no wonder they are becoming so detached from reality. It’s always someone else’s fault for their crimes. Your estimation of Hamas and their strategy is laughable, but that’s what you get when you have to distort reality so much to excuse wanton death and destruction. The script you are reading from is the same old stale hasbara we have heard for years. No-one is buying it.

    • eljay
      July 27, 2014, 9:40 am

      >> hophmeee: If people can’t acknowledge that #Hamas benefits from the showing of these civilian casualties on television, then either they’re stupid, or they’re extraordinarily naive.

      Similar reasoning applies to (Zio-supremacist) Jews & supremacist “Jewish State” benefitting from the showing of Holocaust civilian casualties on television (and in movies, newspapers, magazines and books and on the Internet), yes?

      Surely anyone who can’t acknowledge that must be either stupid or extraordinarily naïve, yes?

    • Annie Robbins
      July 27, 2014, 2:36 pm

      If people can’t acknowledge that #Hamas benefits from the showing of these civilian casualties on television, then either they’re stupid, or they’re extraordinarily naive.

      “acknowledge”? what are you implying here hops, that news should be blacked out because it’s not good for your side? you’re not suggesting palestinians like having their people killed so they can get on the news are you?

      it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand human instinct generally sympathizes with the victim when kids get slaughtered. so why don’t you acknowledge if hamas is ‘benefiting’ from that, israel is fueling that benefit, providing the grist for the mill so to speak.

  18. Kay24
    July 26, 2014, 5:46 pm

    Oren calls Hamas a genocidal terrorists. That would be so credible if Israel has not killed over 1000 civilians, thousands are not maimed and injured.
    Come on Oren, think the rest of the world are all idiots?

    Also he keeps referring to those tunnel, and that is for kidnapping kindergartners, and Israeli people. So how many were killed or kidnapped this way, Oren? Don’t be bashful, tell us.
    To that I say, Israel has no tunnels, because they openly kidnap little kids at night, arrest everyone they do not like, and throw them in their stinking jails. It is all in the numbers and facts.

    • just
      July 26, 2014, 5:50 pm

      you forgot about the part when he says in his strong upstate NY accent that ‘we’ can’t be war- weary…’we’ve’ been at this since the beginning of Israel…’our’ soldiers are ‘home’.

      He’s super Israeli now– nothing can stop him now.

      • oldgeezer
        July 26, 2014, 9:38 pm

        “’our’ soldiers are ‘home’.”

        Yeah I was disappointed they didn’t call him on that since they aren’t in fact home.

  19. kma
    July 26, 2014, 6:42 pm

    Oren has a history of only being able to speak in front of his own choir.
    he runs away if his audience doesn’t already agree with him.
    I sure look forward to the day when he and the rest of the ambassadors have no more audience left. soon.

    pretty soon even the US media will shake their tiny brains awake and realize that bombing tunnels in Gaza is evil. attacking Hamas is evil. besieging any population is evil. killing people just because a building may or may not store “rockets” is actually very evil!! I guess they had to see it first.

  20. oldgeezer
    July 26, 2014, 6:58 pm

    I saw Oren on again just a little while ago before I had to go out for a while. He looked shaken. Rocking a bit in his chair. He is usually so polished and cool. He looked almost as if he was in shock.

    The question is why… Really bad hangover.Broke his foot going into the studio and hadn’t been to the hospital. Finally seen some of the death and destruction by Israel.

    Who knows.

  21. kalithea
    July 26, 2014, 11:46 pm

    What the Israelis are doing in Gaza is an orgy of death and destruction of apocalyptic proportions and Israel is like a serial killer on steroids that just can’t get enough of the bloodbath of innocents, and that took the settlers’ hate graffiti Death to the Arabs seriously and made their racist dreams come true.

    Oren is part of the grotesque deception that enables such a massive crime to happen with total impunity.

  22. Donald
    July 26, 2014, 11:52 pm

    Is there a post here I’m not seeing? I see the headline and then a bunch of comments with all you lovely people (I’m up there too) discussing or arguing with each other, but only a headline. No post.

    • Walid
      July 27, 2014, 5:22 am

      Same no-article for me, only the headline and the comments.

  23. michelle
    July 27, 2014, 2:29 am

    .
    a tiny bit more
    .
    “Oren’s claim that networks showcase Palestinian deaths at behest of Hamas is ‘obscene’ — Karl Penhaul
    Posted on July 26, 2014 by Philip Weiss
    Michael Oren says on CNN that Hamas’s strategy is to drag Israel into Gaza and “get Israel to kill large numbers of civilians” — and then the networks show it for headlines. “Obscene,” Karl Penhaul of CNN says of the charge.”
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  24. just
    July 27, 2014, 7:54 am

    BBC world:

    According to Israeli opposition Knesset leader (?) the Palestinians should have built another Brighton Beach or Monaco instead of tunnels. Israelis ‘should have blue skies’ like any other country.

    Avi, (Israeli historian) on the other hand, makes sense about Israel using its military largesse over and over and over again.

    • Kay24
      July 27, 2014, 9:02 am

      They are such a delusional lot. They are experts at lying and exaggerating.
      No one can fault the Palestinians for building tunnels, or whatever necessary to fight so that they can get out of their miserable existence. They have been caged in and not given the freedom to move out if they want to for decades, by the ugly jailor with deadly weapons, fed and armed by a rich benefactor. This is unlawful imprisonment.

  25. just
    July 27, 2014, 9:13 am

    What on earth did the Palestinians do to deserve this hell on earth?
    Nothing. Nada. Zip.

    Why are they suffering so for so long? Why do we support this maniacal Occupation and the death squads from Israel? Israel is no “ally” to us, and even if someone (anybody) could explain why it is, I don’t want their recipe– it’s a DISASTER for everyone concerned.

  26. MHughes976
    July 27, 2014, 12:28 pm

    Well, on Zionist thinking it was their misfortune to be born in a place where they had, on a deep moral view, no right to be. No one else in the world has been in quite this position, so in a way it’s understandable that they resented the situation even when it was reasonably explained to them. They don’t sufficiently respect the Bible or fully understand about ancient longings based on the correction of 2,000-year-old injustices. In a way these errors are understandable on the part of an underdeveloped people – well, they’re not really a people, just a bunch – but they just cannot be indulged more than slightly. If they go really off the rails and resort to the two worst things in the world, terrorism and an anti-Semitic ideology, they know what will happen to them.
    If only they would just quietly submit – O God, why won’t they? after all this time! are they stupid? are they Amalek? – something could be done for them by way of resettlement somewhere with a few coins jangling in their threadbare pockets.

  27. DICKERSON3870
    July 27, 2014, 4:00 pm

    RE: Oren’s charge that networks showcase Palestinian dead at behest of Hamas is ‘obscene’ — Penhaul

    MY COMMENT: Looking at that photo of Oren, he seems to literally exude/radiate the aura of a narcissistic sociopath! Of course, I realize that most likely only a few very gifted people like myself can see/sense it, so you’ll just have to take my word for it. Trust me, I know about such things!

  28. DICKERSON3870
    July 27, 2014, 5:27 pm

    RE: “Don’t get me wrong. I’m not blaming the media for showing the pictures. ~ Israeli ambassador Ron Dermer

    MY COMMENT: Of course not, because it would be a major Israeli PR faux pas for Israel’s ambassador to publicly blame the media for showing pictures of Palestinian victims. And besides, Israel has its Sayanim and Bodlim minions for such things.

  29. DICKERSON3870
    July 27, 2014, 6:36 pm

    RE: “Israel is facing an enemy in Hamas which has not only military tactics but it has a media strategy . . . ~ Israeli ambassador Ron Dermer

    MY COMMENT: Those uncivilized bastards! How dare they! First there were those crude, home-made rockets; and now they have the audacity to formulate a media strategy (like whites/westerners). Just who do they think they are?!?!

  30. DICKERSON3870
    July 27, 2014, 7:33 pm

    RE:“Oren’s charge that networks showcase Palestinian dead at behest of Hamas is ‘obscene’ — Penhaul”

    MY COMMENT: Michael Oren must believe that if you get an expensive haircut/perm and put on a conservative, dark-colored, expensive-looking suit; you can make the most patently absurd charges, and they will be taken seriously. This reminds me a bit of David Brooks’ once saying on the PBS Newshour that there was no way a jury would ever convict someone with a nickname like “Scooter” (i.e. Scooter Libby).

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