Israel needs no proof to kill Palestinians for teens’ death, Israeli colonel says

Israel/Palestine
on 85 Comments
Lt. Col Peter Lerner of the Israeli Defense Forces

Lt. Col Peter Lerner of the Israeli Defense Forces

Joel Greenberg has a good story that appeared in the Financial Times and McClatchy, touching on Israel’s claims about Hamas’s responsibility for the murder of the three Israeli teens. Greenberg writes:

 “Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay,” [Netanyahu] said…. Beyond Netanyahu’s accusations of Hamas responsibilities, there is no evident link between the abduction and the Hamas leadership in the Gaza Strip. No group has claimed responsibility for the teens’ disappearances and murders….

But that doesn’t matter, Greenberg reports:

Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, an Israeli military spokesman, noted that Hamas leaders have repeatedly called for abductions of Israelis to exchange for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, but he said it remained unclear whether the kidnappers of the teenagers acted on their own or on direct orders from superiors.

“We don’t feel that (such orders were) actually necessary,” Lerner said.

There you have it. Israel is retaliating and killing people, and a high Israeli official says that the country doesn’t need any proof to do so, not even the most minimal evidence– say, statements from Hamas leaders or communications from them– in order to establish their guilt of the murder of the three Israeli teens, and set about to kill them.

Are these Israeli leaders mindreaders? Would this pass muster in any court of law anywhere?

P.S. This is a tactic that Israel has used in the past. Rockets from Gaza don’t come from Hamas, but from some splinter group. It doesn’t matter: All Palestinians are the same, an aggressive act by one makes them all guilty without proof. And so if a couple of Palestinian extremists in the West Bank kill three Jewish teens, Israel doesn’t need any proof, you just retaliate against Gaza.

Kudos to Joel Greenberg for trying to tell both sides of the stories. Language like his was entirely missing from the New York Times account of the killings today.

85 Responses

  1. oldgeezer
    July 1, 2014, 12:21 pm

    but but but Netanyahu has all the evidence. He told us so! Did they lose it perhaps? Did he lie? Does a bear … in the woods.

  2. Woody Tanaka
    July 1, 2014, 12:38 pm

    “Would this pass muster in any court of law anywhere?”

    Nope. Herschel Grynszpan murdered vom Rath in Paris and the Nazis used it as a pretext for holding the Kristallnacht pogrom. There are too many similarities here to be ignored, as an alleged murder here is being used as an excuse to launch a pogrom. Let us hope that the current pogrom in Palestine does not have the same results for the suffering victims as that one did.

    • Feathers
      July 1, 2014, 2:44 pm
      “Would this pass muster in any court of law anywhere?”

      Nope. Herschel Grynszpan murdered vom Rath in Paris and the Nazis used it as a pretext for holding the Kristallnacht pogrom. There are too many similarities here to be ignored, as an alleged murder here is being used as an excuse to launch a pogrom. Let us hope that the current pogrom in Palestine does not have the same results for the suffering victims as that one did.

      In my opinion, there are very few similarities, Woody T, and unless you are willing to engage in full due process, it seems imprudent to raise the matter of the assassination of vom Rath and the Night of Broken Glass and relate them to the current situation in Israel and Occupied West Bank.

      1. Grynszpan admitted to French police that he shot vom Rath. So far, there does not appear to be evidence of who shot the three teenagers.

      2. SA officers were tried and punished for their parts in the violence. Will Palestinians be given a fair trial? How about Jewish leaders who carried out extra-judicial violence, destruction, and killing?

      3. In 1952 Nahum Goldman demanded and received reparations from the German government of Konrad Adenaur in the amount of $500 million. Will Israel pay reparations to Palestinians for their losses?

    • lysias
      July 1, 2014, 3:18 pm

      I’m glad somebody else sees the parallel with Kristallnacht. When I suggested it yesterday (and expressed a hope similar to yours), somebody scolded me for “derailing” the conversation.

      • PeterAgur
        July 1, 2014, 8:10 pm

        That somebody was me, and scold you again I shall. Again, besides saying “Israelis are Nazis”, what is the point of this comparison? Are you claiming that Israel is about to send Palestinians to the gas chambers? Well, it most certainly is not. And if you’re just saying “Israel is doing awful crimes”, then there are many ways of doing so without being inflammatory.
        There are many relevant historical comparisons to be made (Apartheid South Africa comes to mind), but fortunately, Israel is nothing like Nazi Germany. And there’s a name for just yelling “Nazis” – Godwin’s law.

      • Hostage
        July 2, 2014, 3:15 am

        Again, besides saying “Israelis are Nazis”, what is the point of this comparison?

        1) That Israel is behaving like a totalitarian regime; and
        2) That Israel is committing acts of collective punishment against Palestinians, exactly like the ones we once labeled as “Nazi persecution”.
        3) That relevant analogies exist between totalitarian regimes, beside “Nazi extermination”.

        Are you claiming that Israel is about to send Palestinians to the gas chambers?

        Who knows? According to the JTA and other sources, people acknowledged Nazi persecution in the aftermath of Kristallnacht, but most Jews still didn’t think the Nazis posed an existential threat. link to jta.org They couldn’t accurately predict or claim that they were headed to the gas chambers either. So you may have stumbled across another analogy. Totalitarian regimes are dangerous and unpredictable.

      • Mikhael
        July 2, 2014, 6:10 am

        Hostage says:
        July 2, 2014 at 3:15 am
        So you may have stumbled across another analogy. Totalitarian regimes are dangerous and unpredictable.

        Except Israel isn’t a totalitarian regime. Totalitarian regimes, unlike Israel, don’t have free and fair elections in which all citizens of any religion or national origin (whether of Jewish or Arab national origin or other) can vote for representatives to a parliament that can pass laws over the objection of the titular head of government. Totalitarian regimes don’t have changes in government every few years, unlike Israel. Totalitarian regimes don’t have an independent judiciary, unlike Israel’s independent judiciary (which has had justices who are Israeli citizens of Arab as well as Jewish nationality) that can overrule the Knesset and the Cabinet. Totalitarian regimes don’t have an open press and free press, unlike Israel.

        Looking at the Hamas government in Gaza, or even the Fatah government which rules over most of the Arabic-speaking population in the West Bank, and it’s a bit closer to a totalitarian regime, although there is a parody of democracy in Abbas’s PA.

      • Hostage
        July 2, 2014, 2:01 pm

        Except Israel isn’t a totalitarian regime. Totalitarian regimes, unlike Israel, don’t have free and fair elections in which all citizens of any religion or national origin (whether of Jewish or Arab national origin or other) can vote for representatives to a parliament that can pass laws over the objection of the titular head of government.

        I’m afraid you’re incorrect. The Nazis came to power as a result of free and fair elections and then set about securing their regime using the same corrupt methods employed by the Zionist apartheid regime. For example, there are no seats reserved for Arabs on the board of governors of the Israel Land Authority corresponding to those reserved for Jews of the JNF. Israel’s two-tiered municipal legal system, provides many superior rights and privileges like that to persons of Jewish descendancy, including access to land and natural resources, and treats indigenous non-Jews as if they are alien infiltrators ineligible to use state land in their own country. Israel has actually adopted dozens of even more discriminatory laws, policies, and practices, since it’s own Or Commission concluded that Israeli Arabs were subjected to systematic and pervasive discrimination including measures to outlaw or sanction Arab parties and MKs and raise the threshold to eliminate Arab parties from the Knesset altogether. Of course the Israeli Civil Administration in the Occupied Palestinian territories is completely totalitarian and doesn’t even merit much discussion. If you think we didn’t notice all of those things, then you’re just a dumbshit peddler of dishonest hasbara.

      • Talkback
        July 2, 2014, 8:46 am

        PeterAgur says: Are you claiming that Israel is about to send Palestinians to the gas chambers?

        As if that was the Nazi’s only crime against humanity. It all started with differentiating between (priviliged) nationals and the (non priviliged) rest of citizens. Sounds familiar?

      • PeterAgur
        July 2, 2014, 1:57 pm

        Yes, the Nazis committed many crimes, but it’s the systematic killing of the non-priviliged, not their differentiation, that sets Nazi Germany apart from most other regimes that have committed war crimes. Invoking the Nazis as just “any old totalitarian regime” is therefore setting up a false comparison

      • lysias
        July 2, 2014, 6:41 pm

        At the time of the Kristallnacht, the Nazis had not yet begun that systematic killing. That was still a few years away.

      • Hostage
        July 3, 2014, 1:59 am

        Yes, the Nazis committed many crimes, but it’s the systematic killing of the non-priviliged, not their differentiation, that sets Nazi Germany apart from most other regimes that have committed war crimes. Invoking the Nazis as just “any old totalitarian regime” is therefore setting up a false comparison

        So far, your objections are nonsense. The Nazis were elected and started adopting totalitarian polices and making their political opponents disappear into custody or killed them while they were trying to flee. The Jews initiated a worldwide boycott of the Nazi regime on the basis of persecution, inequality, denial of adequate food rations, long before the Kristallnacht. For that matter, Hannah Arendt compared the Nuremberg Race Laws with the Israeli Rabbinate’s laws that are employed to protect national purity and honor. She was definitely not setting-up a false comparison:

        Like almost everybody else in Israel, he believed that only a Jewish court could render justice to Jews, and that it was the business of Jews to sit in judgment on their enemies. Hence the almost universal hostility in Israel to the mere mention of an international court which would have indicted Eichmann, not for crimes “against the Jewish people,” but for crimes against mankind committed on the body of the Jewish people. Hence the strange boast: “We make no ethnic distinctions,” which sounded less strange in Israel, where rab­binical law rules the personal status of Jewish citizens, with the result that no Jew can marry a non-Jew; marriages concluded abroad are recognized, but children of mixed marriages are legally bastards (children of Jewish parentage born out of wed­lock are legitimate), and if one happens to have a non-Jewish mother he can neither be married nor buried. The outrage in this state of affairs has become more acute since 1953, when a sizable portion of jurisdiction in matters of family law was handed over to the secular courts. Women can now inherit property and in general enjoy equal status with men. Hence it is hardly respect for the faith or the power of the fanatically religious minority that prevents the government of Israel from substituting secular jurisdiction for rabbinical law in matters of marriage and divorce. Israeli citizens, religious and nonreligious, seem agreed upon the desirability of having a law which pro­hibits intermarriage, and it is chiefly for this reason—as Israeli officials outside the courtroom were willing to admit—that they are also agreed upon the undesirability of a written constitution in which such a law would embarrassingly have to be spelled out. (‘The argument against civil marriage is that it would split the House of Israel, and would also separate Jews of this country from Jews of the Diaspora,” as Philip Gillon recently put it in Jewish Frontier.) Whatever the reasons, there certainly was something breathtaking in the naivete with which the prosecution denounced the infamous Nuremberg Laws of 1935, which had prohibited intermarriage and sexual intercourse between Jews and Germans. The better informed among the correspondents were well aware of the irony, but they did not mention it in their reports. — Eichmann in Jerusalem: a report on the banality of evil, Google ebook, page 7

    • Giles
      July 1, 2014, 7:38 pm

      Although that let’s hope when all is said and done the Zionist experiment will end as the Nazi experiment. Gone and fully discredited.

  3. DaBakr
    July 1, 2014, 12:49 pm

    the by-line above is one of the more clever attempts to twist a logical line of reasoning into something sinister and evil. you people like to have things both ways. your cake and eating it. years ago you accused Netanyahu of ‘incitement’ and ‘complicity’ in the assassination of Rabin but now, when leaders of the Hamas have CLEARLY indicated they fully support (and even publish an online ‘handbook’ for kidnapping) kidnapping of Israeli to use as barter to release their own imprisoned criminals you want to claim this is not a ‘complicit’ line of responsibility. Even when the two mysteriously missing suspects have direct ties to Hamas cells. Hypocrisy. This seems to be the lifeblood of MW lately and it is disappointing if the goal is to ‘change peoples minds’. Maybe its easier to just ban this post

    • Justpassingby
      July 1, 2014, 1:13 pm

      Dabakr

      Amazing, there is no evidence and here you are telling us that there is. How brainwashed are you?!

      • DaBakr
        July 1, 2014, 5:56 pm

        i clearly stated an example of exactly how the kidnapping was approved by leadership who is not stupid and knows how to implicitly condone something w/o having an actual trail of explicit evidence. you act as if circumstantial evidence is never admissible but then that is not true. In your country it is admissible as long as its reasonable. as for “brainwashed”? your ad hominem attacks are nothing original or unexpected. you already had Israel tried and convicted of orchestrating this act of murder before the boys were even found so ought not be accusing others of anything like bw

      • Giles
        July 1, 2014, 7:39 pm

        How many innocent Palestinians are the Israelis allowed to kill over this event?

      • Annie Robbins
        July 1, 2014, 7:48 pm

        allowed? who stops them? as many as they want i presume.

      • Hostage
        July 1, 2014, 8:30 pm

        you act as if circumstantial evidence is never admissible but then that is not true. In your country it is admissible as long as its reasonable.

        No, third party criminal responsibility can’t be established on the basis of mere circumstantial evidence, “guilt by association”, in any civilized judicial system.

      • Mooser
        July 1, 2014, 9:03 pm

        DaBakr, us Jews are going to spend the next hundred years cleaning up after and paying for Zionist crimes. As far as I’m concerned, Zionists are Judaism, and the Jewish people’s biggest and most powerful enemy.
        In fact, I really doubt we can survive Zionism, as a religion.

      • DaBakr
        July 2, 2014, 6:07 am

        whats a 100 years give or take? you and I will be ashes. its for the next generation which you and I completely disagree about no doubt.

      • Jackdaw
        July 2, 2014, 4:35 pm

        @Mooser

        And your intermarriage has done what for the religion?

      • RoHa
        July 2, 2014, 7:09 pm

        @Jackdaw

        “And your intermarriage has done what for the religion?”

        Shown that people of that religion can be decent, sane, human beings. But maybe that’s a bad thing in your (not his) kind of Judaism.

    • Cliff
      July 1, 2014, 1:25 pm

      @ziotroll

      The alleged killers have no ‘ties’

      That certain Hamas ppl approve is irrelevant

      There is not evidence that this was organized by Hamas as an organization

      It was not a coordinated attack, part of some larger scheme

      This is just you and the other jewish colonists trying to use this situation to topple the unity government

    • bilal a
      July 1, 2014, 3:13 pm

      The motives, and means, are historical, not contemporary Hamas.

      On January 14, 1951, at about seven in the evening, a bomb – or perhaps it was a hand grenade – was tossed into the open courtyard of the Masuda Shemtov synagogue in Baghdad. The courtyard served as a gathering place for Jews, prior to their departure for the airport, on their way to Israel. At the time of the terror attack, the place was filled with several hundred people. Four of them, including a 12-year-old boy, were killed; about 10 were wounded. The Iraqi authorities blamed two activists from the Zionist underground, and had them executed.

      The British embassy in Baghdad relayed to London its own assessment of the motives behind the attack: Activists of the Zionist movement wanted to highlight the danger for the Jews of Iraq, in order to spur the State of Israel to accelerate the pace of their immigration. At the time, there was serious debate in Israel on this issue and some wished to slow down the rate of emigration from Iraq. The British embassy’s appraisal is quoted in a book by Esther Meir of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. The embassy also offered a second possible explanation: The bombs were meant to influence well-off Jews in Iraq who wished to stay there, to get them to change their minds and come to Israel, too.

    • amigo
      July 1, 2014, 4:00 pm

      When ever the subject of Jewish Terroreeesm comes up I point to Lehi and their offers to the Nazis , I am quickly told that Lehi was just a fringe group and did not represent Israeli Government policy.

      Do Zionists ever get tired talking through the sides of their mouths.It aint natural.

    • Hostage
      July 1, 2014, 5:00 pm

      Hamas have CLEARLY indicated they fully support (and even publish an online ‘handbook’ for kidnapping) kidnapping of Israeli to use as barter to release their own imprisoned criminals . . .

      What does that have to do with the murder of the three teens? FYI, Israel has used the Incarceration of Unlawful Combatants Law, 5762-2002 (.pdf) to arrest and administratively hold Palestinian prisoners for use as bargaining chips. When the Israeli High Court of Justice finally ruled that the law didn’t permit the use of administrative detention to hold prisoners for use as bargaining chips, the Knesset took the hint and adopted the “Unlawful Combatants Law”, which does permit the practice. Zionists brag about that fact online.
      When Shalit was captured the Security services ignored the AG’s advice and used bargaining chips anyway. See
      * AG refuses to ok use of Hamas officials as ‘bargaining chips’
      G8: IDF detention of 64 lawmakers raises ‘concerns’; Israel warns not even Haniyeh immune from detention. link to haaretz.com
      * IDF Court Frees Bargaining Chip for Shalit: An IDF court in Wednesday freed a senior Hamas political leader after 36 months in jail, leaving Israel with one less bargaining chip for Shalit. link to israelnationalnews.com

    • SQ Debris
      July 1, 2014, 8:54 pm

      Hamas carefully preserved the well being of Gilad Shalit, even during Molten Lead. It’s not their style to throw away resources. They certainly have supported kidnapping, with the clear purpose of ransoming kidnapped Palestinians. This waste of hostages doesn’t wash as a Hamas operation. It has more the look of an application of Israeli rules regarding the shooting of unarmed children. There’s no actual evidence of any specific perpetrator or motive available to the public at this point. DaBakr, DaButcher, and DaCandlestick maker can hoop all they want. There aren’t any facts beyond three corpses and a burned out Israeli car.

  4. goldmarx
    July 1, 2014, 1:25 pm

    DaBakr, whenever Hamas has been responsible for a kidnapping (like Gideon Shalit), they have claimed credit for it, openly and proudly. It’s their M.O.

    Blatant political stupidity is also not part of the Hamas playbook. It had no intention of providing Bibi with an easy excuse to pressure the Palestinian Authority to kick out Hamas, especially so soon after the Unity Government was established.

  5. mondonut
    July 1, 2014, 1:32 pm

    Referring to whether or not the murderers received direct orders from superiors…

    “We don’t feel that (such orders were) actually necessary,”

    And somehow or other you twist that into…

    “Israel needs no proof to kill Palestinians for teens’ death”

    Exhibit A for the well deserved reputation of Mondoweiss

    • Woody Tanaka
      July 1, 2014, 2:07 pm

      You’re, as typical, spewing garbage.

      The Israeli criminal said, ““We don’t feel that (such orders were) actually necessary,”… necessary for what?? Well, necessary for unleashing a murderous pogrom against innocent Palestinians in the guise of attacking those being blamed for this alleged murder.

      But wait, if the criminals in the I”D”F are attacking Palestinians, what proof do they have to justify that attack? Answer: “Israel needs no proof to kill Palestinians for teens’ death”

      Just because you eat up the horsecrap spewed by your hired criminals in your terror forces doesn’t mean that it makes sense nor doesn’t mean that anyone else buys it.

      • mondonut
        July 2, 2014, 12:37 am

        Woody Tanaka says: You’re, as typical, spewing garbage.

        Garbage? The headline of the story is a lie, there is no record of the Colonel making that statement. It is a lie and you know it.

    • Cliff
      July 1, 2014, 2:39 pm

      @troll

      do you still deny the findings of the UN report that concluded that the IDF systematically abuses children?

    • Kris
      July 1, 2014, 3:03 pm

      @mondonut, try reading the whole article, for comprehension. This excerpt may help you:

      “There you have it. Israel is retaliating and killing people, and a high Israeli official says that the country doesn’t need any proof to do so, not even the most minimal evidence– say, statements from Hamas leaders or communications from them– in order to establish their guilt of the murder of the three Israeli teens, and set about to kill them.

      “Are these Israeli leaders mindreaders? Would this pass muster in any court of law anywhere?”

      As you no doubt know, Israel has NEVER felt it needed proof to kill Palestinians, anyway, so this is kind of a “dog bites man” story.

      Maybe it’s a cultural thing, and proof is not a value in Israeli society, which is why you are so annoyed by this. Don’t forget that Israel has always felt free to disregard actual documented proof of IDF and Israeli crimes against Palestinians.

      • mondonut
        July 2, 2014, 12:34 am

        @Kris

        Comprehension of what? This story offers”Israel needs no proof to kill Palestinians for teens’ death” as a quote by the Israeli Colonel. Which is of course a bald faced lie. Nothing in the link proves otherwise.

  6. Sherri Munnerlyn
    July 1, 2014, 2:00 pm

    When has a Zionist ever needed a reason for killing a non Jew? The authority lies in the essence of simply being a Zionist. How dare that authority be questioned? This arrogant Zionist way of thinking that places the value of the life of a Jew on a pedestal above all other human life explains much.

  7. Citizen
    July 1, 2014, 2:01 pm

    Lerner has a twitter account, is IDF media spoke person: link to twitter.com

    • James North
      July 1, 2014, 9:49 pm

      I just responded to Lt. Col. Lerner on Twitter. He evidently follows Mondoweiss.

      • Denis
        July 2, 2014, 12:47 am

        Of course he does. He’s the one writing half of the hasbara comments that appear here.

  8. Chu
    July 1, 2014, 2:48 pm

    Israel’s collective punishment tactics to come will injure many Palestinians who aren’t guilty of anything. Why doesn’t Judy Rudoren or some westerner media agent interview the people of Palestine to show that there is more to Palestinians than how the Israeli gov’t accuses them to be?

    • Denis
      July 2, 2014, 12:42 am

      Chu, thank you. I was looking for a segue to this article by Robt. Fisk of the Independent. This is a must-read; this is the guy you are looking for.
      Independent Jul01.2014
      http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/israeli-teenagers-funeral-it-is-obscene-when-either-side-kills-children–not-only-palestinians-9577281.html

      Fisk is one of the most highly respected journalists in the world. He has been on the Palestine/Israel beat since 1976 and has lived in Beirut since then. He was the first white guy to get into Sabra and tell the world about the Israelis’ crimes. He knows more about the ME than Rudoren and all her NYT buddies combined.

      A clip from Fisk’s article:

      But the obscene theatre of the Israeli-Palestinian war follows a script as scandalous as it is lethal. This week, the Israeli Prime Minister called the Palestinians who killed three Israelis “beasts”. So what? Didn’t Menachem Begin call Palestinians “two-legged animals” in 1982? And then Begin unleashed thousands of Israeli air raids against them – just as Netanyahu says that Hamas “will pay” for these latest deaths.

      And now President Shimon Peres says that Israel will “punish the villainous terrorists with a firm hand”. Yet how many media folk will recall today that this is the same Shimon Peres who as Prime Minister launched the 1996 war against “terrorism” which led directly to the mass killing at Qana? [Where GoI shelled a UN refuge camp killing over 100.] None. For the one thing which is forbidden in the Middle East is an institutional memory.

      Back in the 1960s, Israel launched air strikes against “terrorists” in Lebanon. Countless thousands of air raids later, they were still staging air strikes to “wipe out terrorism” in Lebanon or to “root out the evil weed of terrorism” (Begin) – the 1982 Lebanon invasion costing around 17,000 lives – and during the siege of Gaza (2008-9) with its more than 1,100 Palestinian dead and 13 Israeli dead (four killed by their own side). President-elect Obama was silent on that – but voluble today, when he condemned “this senseless act of terror against innocent youth”.

      This guy is pulling no punches. He writes as if he’s a contributor to MW (only he doesn’t quote NYT like it’s the only news source in the known universe). Fisk and Jimmy Carter are probably the two best known people with the guts to call the Palestinian travesty a travesty.

      • Hostage
        July 2, 2014, 2:47 pm

        Fisk and Jimmy Carter are probably the two best known people with the guts to call the Palestinian travesty a travesty.

        You were doing okay by praising Fisk, but praising Carter is like praising Peres for those of us with “an institutional memory”. During his re-election campaign, he dispatched Secretary Muskie to the Security Council to prevent the adoption of sanctions against Israel over its Basic Law: Jerusalem in order to secure Jewish campaign funding and votes. Muskie stated for the record that the US didn’t consider the UN Security Council resolution condemning the unilateral annexation and calling for its non-recognition to be legally binding. Even after the establishment of community admissions committees, the Prawer Plan, and CERD reports regarding violations of Article 3 of the ICERD convention in the the housing, education, and budget processes in Israel itself, Carter still defends Israel’s actions inside the Green Line against charges of apartheid. With friends like him, Palestinian citizens of Israel and residents of East Jerusalem don’t need any enemies.

      • Denis
        July 2, 2014, 5:05 pm

        Hostage: With friends like him, Palestinian citizens of Israel and residents of East Jerusalem don’t need any enemies.

        Uh. . . we’er talking about the West Bank here, Hostage. Your comment is, like, total non sequitur. Carter’s plain-language and persistent calling out GoI over Palestine is not equaled by any white guy in the world, certainly given his status as a former president. Your calling him an enemy of Palestinians is an example of how your pedantry tends toward sophistry.

        Get yourself a copy of Carter’s “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.” It has done more to turn the world against Israeli apartheid than any other single book or piece of journalism ever written — and certainly more than all of the UN resolutions that have been passed into oblivion over the decades.

        But don’t take my word for it, consider those wacko Zionists who sued Carter for $5M over his book — Unterberg et al. v. Jimmy Carter et.al (11 cv 0720), filed in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York in February, 2011. They asserted that nobody has done more than Carter to “defame Israel” and to challenge its right to exist — or, in my words, nobody has done more to call the Palestinian travesty a travesty. Zionist Jews attacking Carter because he attacked Israel as being apartheid is a very strong endorsement of my position, your irrelevant Muskie story notwithstanding.

        Note also that Carter has been regularly attacked by Uncle Abe Foxman, which is another very strong indication of Carter’s stand against GoI.

        Or look at what the Palestinians themselves say. While pointing out, as you do, that Carter sees Israel’s politics inside the 1967 line as a different issue from the issue of the right of Palestinian independence, the 2006 WSJ opinion of Ali Abunimah, co-founder of the Electronic Intifida, support my position 100%:

        President Carter has done what few American politicians have dared to do: speak frankly about the Israel-Palestine conflict. He has done this nation, and the cause of peace, an enormous service by focusing attention on what he calls “the abominable oppression and persecution in the occupied Palestinian territories, with a rigid system of required passes and strict segregation between Palestine’s citizens and Jewish settlers in the West Bank.” The 39th president of the United States, the most successful Arab-Israeli peace negotiator to date, has braved a storm of criticism, including the insinuation from the pro-Israel Anti-Defamation League that his arguments are anti-Semitic. [Bold added]

        You need to rethink your position on Carter. Unlike a UK journalist, an American politician knows he’s playing with a deck stacked by the Jewish press and Jewish influenced Congress. Carter’s tactic of dividing the I/P problem in two and attacking GoI harshly on Palestine while stroking them as regards their own “internal” affairs was brilliant. Reagan, Clinton, Bush, or Obama should be so brilliant — or so honest. Enemy of the Palestinians, my tush.

      • Hostage
        July 3, 2014, 1:20 am

        Uh. . . we’er talking about the West Bank here, Hostage. Your comment is, like, total non sequitur.

        No we were talking about “the Palestinian travesty” and the fact that even after the establishment of Jewish community admissions committees, the Prawer Plan, and CERD reports regarding violations of Article 3 of the ICERD convention in the the housing, education, and budget processes in Israel itself, Carter still defends Israel’s actions inside the Green Line against charges of apartheid. The second demand of the BDS movement was, and still is, for Israel to comply with international law “Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality”.

        The biggest ever-expanding object, that is sucking-up the the territory of the West Bank happens to be “Jerusalem”. I was commenting about the fact that Carter himself, not Reagan, established the legal precedent of blocking UN sanctions and allowing Israel to get away with that on-going unilateral annexation under the guise of its “Basic Law:Jerusalem”. Carter’s book and subsequent statements still give Israel, inside the Green Line, a clean bill of health. If that isn’t part of the Palestinian travesty, then I guess I don’t know what is.

      • DaBakr
        July 2, 2014, 5:32 pm

        don;t forget Falk.

      • Hostage
        July 3, 2014, 1:27 am

        don;t forget Falk.

        Follow your own advice. I have a very good memory and hadn’t forgotten anything about Falk.

  9. lysias
    July 1, 2014, 3:12 pm

    Just like Bush told the Taliban he didn’t need to produce any evidence of bin Laden’s guilt before invading Afghanistan.

  10. seafoid
    July 1, 2014, 3:31 pm

    The Guardian mentioned an article by rania khalek about calls for violence on the IDF facebook page. Does anyone have a link?

    • Bumblebye
      July 1, 2014, 5:20 pm

      Could be the one linked to in this EI blog by Abunimah:

      link to electronicintifada.net

      “Glorying in blood and death

      Written in blood: an image posted to Facebook by an Israeli soldier demands “revenge.” The administrator of the popular group, which has more than 70,000 “Likes,” shared a photo of the bloodied body of Yousef Abu Zagha with the caption, “This is the terrorist killed last night in Jenin.”

      Many of the members of the Facebook group identify as active members of the Israeli military.”

      The link comes up as

      link to facebook.com

      • seafoid
        July 2, 2014, 5:53 am

        Thanks

        The comments are awful. Even Amalek gets name checked.
        What hope does Israel have of ever becoming a normal country ?

  11. Hostage
    July 1, 2014, 4:47 pm

    Israel needs no proof to kill Palestinians for teens’ death, Israeli colonel says

    Correction: Israel needs no excuse to kill Palestinians. It’s the national pastime.

    • just
      July 1, 2014, 4:53 pm

      Succinct and true.

    • Mooser
      July 1, 2014, 7:30 pm

      “Correction: Israel needs no excuse to kill Palestinians. It’s the national pastime.”

      And just when Israel was all set to get the “modern indigenous nation” status.
      Well, that’s what Andersen (with footnotes from Caroline Glick!) is telling us over at the Ellis article.

      • Hostage
        July 1, 2014, 9:04 pm

        Well, that’s what Andersen (with footnotes from Caroline Glick!) is telling us over at the Ellis article.

        Sorry, that violates my “Caroline test”. Where Ms. Glick is concerned, there is a necessity for a sane person to stop reading which is “instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation”. Appealing to Caroline Glick as a source of authority in a threaded comment forum is a flagrant violation of good Internet etiquette. She works harder than anyone else, except perhaps Pamela Gellar or Lori Lowenthal Marcus, to make certain that nothing she ever has to say about Palestinians is of any probative value (evidence which is sufficiently useful to prove something important) at all.

    • RoHa
      July 1, 2014, 8:56 pm

      “Israel needs no proof to kill Palestinians for teens’ death, Israeli colonel says”

      Well, if evidence and proof are irrelevant, that puts all you lawyer types out of a job, doesn’t it.

      • Hostage
        July 2, 2014, 1:22 am

        Well, if evidence and proof are irrelevant, that puts all you lawyer types out of a job, doesn’t it.

        Not at all. You still need a full staff of those lawyer types on the payroll who are crooked enough to “dot the i’s and cross the t’s” (commas just wanna be free) in order to cover your ass and swear that fundamental human rights, the criminal laws, and constitutional due process are inapplicable and irrelevant in such cases. For a great example of that sort of thing in action, see: “Office of Legal Counsel, MEMORANDUM FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, Re: Applicability of Federal Criminal Laws and the Constitution to Contemplated Lethal Operations Against Shaykh Anwar al-Aulaqi”, dated July 16, 2010 link to justsecurity.org Of course these guys all have one another’s back. That memo was only released, after the fact, when the Senate had already voted to confirm the author’s lifetime appointment as one of our new federal judges.

      • Jackdaw
        July 2, 2014, 2:14 am

        @Hostage

        Arab eyewitness fails to back claim of a massacre of the burial detail at Lydda.

        link to zochrot.org

        Hostage must remove the ‘Nakba denial’ ban he and Phil placed on Obsidian.

      • Cliff
        July 2, 2014, 11:23 am

        Look another proudzionst666 sock puppet

      • Hostage
        July 2, 2014, 2:28 pm

        Hostage must remove the ‘Nakba denial’ ban he and Phil placed on Obsidian.

        But the Arabs don’t contradict the testimony of “Yerachmiel Kahanovich Palmach soldier” regarding his role in the massacre in the mosque or in the murder of people who tried to stray away during the forced eviction and march, i.e. let’s review:

        Obsidian tried to refute that 2012 video confession by the perpetrator by citing the conclusions of some historians published years earlier who weren’t even there:
        “Yerachmiel Kahanovich Palmach soldier”
        Sorry. No massacre at Lydda. See, Myths and Historiography of the 1948 Palestine War Revisited: The Case of Lydda Author(s): Alon Kadish and Avraham SelaSource: Middle East Journal, Vol. 59, No. 4 (Autumn, 2005), pp. 617-634.
        link to mondoweiss.net
        Maybe Hostage and Phil should apologize to Obsidian and revoke the ban.
        If you keep engaging in Nakba denial, you had better be prepared to join him. I won’t have anything to apologize about in any event.

        link to mondoweiss.net

        You’re lucky I’m not one of the site administrators, or your account would be blocked already. Your comments obviously violate policies on Nakba denial and trolling. If you bring this up again I’ll damn sure ask that you be blocked.

      • Jackdaw
        July 2, 2014, 3:39 pm

        @Hostage

        ” Obsidian tried to refute that 2012 video confession by the perpetrator by citing the conclusions of some historians published years earlier who weren’t even there:
        “Yerachmiel Kahanovich Palmach soldier””

        Was Kahanovich even the PIATnik who fired into the mosque?

        “Shavit zeroes in on his villain, “Bulldozer,” the operator of a bazooka-like PIAT (Projector Infantry Anti-Tank weapon) whom he has already portrayed at length as someone “traumatized” by war and who took a “delight in killing.” Shavit doesn’t give the name of Bulldozer, but he is plainly identifiable on the Palmah veterans’ website as Shmuel (Shmulik) Ben-David.

        “When Bulldozer approaches the small mosque, he sees that there is indeed shooting. From somewhere, somehow, grenades are thrown. . . . One of the training-group leaders is wounded when a hand grenade, apparently thrown from the small mosque, explodes and takes his hand clear off. This incident provokes Bulldozer to shoot the antitank PIAT into the mosque.”

        link to mosaicmagazine.com

      • Hostage
        July 3, 2014, 1:42 am

        Was Kahanovich even the PIATnik who fired into the mosque?

        He confessed that he was the perpetrator on video tape. In any event, Obsidian denied that anyone died as a result of the forced march, and Kahanovich confessed to shooting people with his Browning rifle if they tried to stray-off during the march.

        Now you too are citing guesswork, based upon second-hand accounts about an unidentified person. They were compiled by another author who wasn’t even there at the time. Like Obsidian, even if what you suggest were true, it doesn’t alter the fact that people died or were murdered during the forced march. So you are trying to make a half-assed and unsuccessful attempt to impeach direct evidence about the original subject from a primary source.

      • Jackdaw
        July 3, 2014, 6:07 am

        @Hostage

        The “Bulldozer” claims that he, himself, fired the PIAT. This directly contradicts Kahanovich and allows for the presumption that all of Kahanovich’s testimony may be false. Falsus en uno.

        If several Palmachnik’s have already testified that the mosque contained armed combatants who were attacking the Palmach, than no massacre occurred in the small mosque.
        Eshet’s testimony about the massacre of the burial detail is contradicted by the Arab who was a member of the burial detail, to wit; no massacre of the burial detail.

        Kahanovich, who’s veracity is all ready in question, testified that he shot at or shot to death refugees who left the escape route.
        Worse case scenario, Kahanovich is guilty of a committing atrocious war crimes, but not of committing a massacre (by himself?).

        Obsidian never said that no one was killed on the march. He said, ‘It wasn’t the Bataan Death March’, wherein 75,000 Filipino and American troops on Bataan were forced to make an arduous 65-mile march to prison camps, subjected to harsh treatment by Japanese guards, and thousands perished.

  12. eljay
    July 1, 2014, 10:11 pm

    Mr. Lerner believes that Israel does not require evidence to justify a retaliatory assault against Palestinians. I trust that Mr. Lerner will support the Palestinians if/when they launch similarly-justified retaliatory assaults on Israel.

  13. tree
    July 2, 2014, 1:41 am

    Breaking news according to Richard Silverstein:

    Palestinian Instagram users have reported that a Palestinian boy, Mohamed Hussein Abu Khdeir, was kidnapped this morning (Palestine time) before morning prayers in East Jerusalem by three Israeli settlers. A body likely to be his was found shortly afterward in the Jerusalem forest. It was badly burned.

    This was the text accompanying Zalameh’s video on Instagram:

    Video of announcement just now, from the loudspeaker of my local mosque, that ibn el balad Mohamed Hussein Abu Khdeir is reported missing, apparently taken by 3 Israeli settlers just before Fajr prayers – this is just opposite my home. People in the hood have gathered in the streets, there is still some confusion as to what exactly happened. Israeli helicopters are hovering above, seems this will hit the news any time now once things become clearer. Let’s make dua Mohamed is safe inshallah. #ramadan #jerusalem #palestine #رمضان_في_القدس_غير

    An Israeli security source told Reuters that the killing appeared to be an act of retribution for the Hebron murders.

    link to richardsilverstein.com

    • tree
      July 2, 2014, 1:46 am

      From Haaretz:

      Police found a body in a forest west of Jerusalem, early on Wednesday morning. A large police force is present on the scene.

      Earlier the Jerusalem Police received a report that a man was forced onto a vehicle near the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hanina. A missing persons report was also filed. The link between the incidents has not yet been corroborated but the father of the missing child was taken by the police to identify the body.

      Palestinian media is reporting that the Palestinian teenager was kidnapped by Israeli Jews and murdered in retribution for the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli teenagers, whose bodies were discovered Monday night.

      The Palestinian claims are uncorroborated, still mobs of Israeli extremists protested in Jerusalem on Tuesday calling for revenge for the murder of the Israeli teens. Five Palestinians were attacked, and two of them needed medical treatment. The extremists were engaged in violent confrontations with police in the capital’s center for several hours.

      The police arrested 50 people suspected of involvement in the incidents. Public transportation in the center of town was disrupted for hours, and hundreds of youths ran through the downtown city streets yelling racist slogans and calling for revenge against Arabs.

      link to haaretz.com

      The “man” forced into the vehicle in the article was a 16 year old.

      • alfa
        July 2, 2014, 5:24 am

        Lunatic lynch mobs spurred on by the words of barbarous madmen ! ! No need to compare Zionists to Nazis, they set their own mark of savage mindless cruel hatred. Zombie eyed Larner is a the poster child for the brainwash dupes produced by the Zionist school system. In their desperation they are lost to the reality that they are self-destructing.

      • a blah chick
        July 2, 2014, 6:16 am

        Here’s what Mr. Sara had to say about: Netanyahu calls on all sides not to take the law into their own hands. “Israel is a state of law and everyone is obligated to act in accordance with the law.”

        Now the district police chief : “I ask Jerusalem residents and everyone else not to jump to conclusions, to wait for developments. There are conjectures and working assessments, we are not hurrying to say one way or another. I ask everyone to show responsibility, understanding and patience.”

      • seafoid
        July 2, 2014, 7:10 am

        Not surprisingly, the bots started asking if the deceased had been killed as part of a feud. Media ops 1.0

        “The family of the Palestinian teen is vehemently denying the rumors that he was kidnapped by Palestinians due to a feud between families, claiming that they aren’t involved in a feud.”

        Awful comments on this IDF facebook page – google translate gives a good idea

        The combination of Zionist ww2 trauma/sense of entitlement and IDF impunity is lethal

        link to facebook.com

      • Ellen
        July 2, 2014, 7:37 am

        It is getting worse. Hasbarists now claiming it was an honour killing by Palestinians of a gay teen.

        Yet these same goons denying that it may have been a revenge murder of the teen by squatters also called for murder and daily lynchings.

        It is dangerous to not be a Jew while breathing in Jerusalem.

      • a blah chick
        July 2, 2014, 7:56 am

        There appears to be surveillance footage showing the kidnapping and that the car came from the direction of a settlement.

      • eljay
        July 2, 2014, 8:03 am

        This would be a good time to answer the question, Potato-man: How many Israelis are the Palestinians entitled to murder and how much Israeli property are the Palestinians entitled to destroy in order to resolve this crime?

  14. OlegR
    July 2, 2014, 5:46 am

    What a hutzpa
    from Israel to attack an innocent terror organization like Hamas…

    • eljay
      July 2, 2014, 8:55 am

      >> What a hutzpa from Israel to attack an innocent terror organization like Hamas…

      It’s a very bad joke for an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state like Israel to feign innocence and to claim any sort of moral high ground even as it continues with its decades-long campaign of oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians and stealing, occupying and colonizing Palestinian land.

  15. Mikhael
    July 2, 2014, 5:55 am


    Rockets from Gaza don’t come from Hamas, but from some splinter group. It doesn’t matter: All Palestinians are the same, an aggressive act by one makes them all guilty without proof.

    The government in charge of Gaza, Hamas, is responsible for rocket and mortar attacks that originate from the territory it controls. If Hamas does not rein in these “splinter groups” then it remains for Israel to do so. After Israeli action against terror gangs in the Gaza region, whether they are the “splintered” Islamic Jihad or the putatively legitimate government of Gaza (the one that boasts about having won an election in 2006 and hasn’t allowed another since then–let’s see what happens later this year), one sees that Hamas makes some feeble efforts at cracking down They won’t cease attacking our country and our population if we ask them politely to stop.

    • Hostage
      July 2, 2014, 2:09 pm

      The government in charge of Gaza, Hamas, is responsible for rocket and mortar attacks that originate from the territory it controls.

      Correction: That’s nonsense. The Israelis were never able to stop rocket attacks when they were the government in charge of Gaza, and they didn’t even have to deal with shortages caused by the blockade or ISIS. But in any event, the new unity government was sworn in and it is responsible for security in Gaza, but can’t be blamed anymore than the former Israeli government for everything that happens there.

  16. Walid
    July 2, 2014, 6:22 am

    The tram station at Shuafat is being thrashed now but only by 3 people with steel bars breaking plastic and glass sign posts. Large garbage bins have been laid across the tram tracks. There are more journalists and photographers there than actual demonstrators.

    Live coverage:

    link to almayadeen.net

    • Walid
      July 2, 2014, 6:52 am

      If anyone was watching the live telecast from Shuafat’s tram station, that was Palestinian-Israeli MK Ahmad Tibi talking saying that contrary to what Netanyahu has been hinting at for the past few days, the blood of Israelis is not more valuable than the blood of Palestinians and that the Palestinians are now waiting to hear from Obama about his reaction to the killing of the Palestinian teen.

      Tibi also mentioned that the black car in question was used in another attempted kidnapping in the same neighbourhood a couple of days ago but that the police did nothing about it.

      • a blah chick
        July 2, 2014, 7:00 am

        Thanks, Walid. Ynet had an article about the killing but the only pictures shown were not of the boy but of the trashing of the station. Interesting. Also they are, like many news outlets, spreading the rumor that this was an honor killing.

      • seafoid
        July 2, 2014, 7:25 am

        Lynch mobs in East Jerusalem

        “A number of incidents were filmed where the protesting mob posed a threat to an individual Arab and police officers struggled to separate and protect an innocent life from the enraged rightwing extremists. ”

        link to ynetnews.com

        Whatever atrocity results can always be turned into a mitzvah.

        598 Deut. 25:17 — Remember what Amalek did to the Israelites
        599 Deut. 25:19 — Wipe out the descendants of Amalek
        600 Deut. 25:19 — Not to forget Amalek’s atrocities and ambush on our journey from Egypt in the desert

      • Walid
        July 2, 2014, 7:49 am

        Scriptwriters are already at work; Israelis starting to talk about a possible clan feud between the Abu Khdeir clan and another Jerusalem clan that resulted in the kidnapping and killing of the Palestinian youth. The victim’s mother and father have been interrogated for hours at the police station. Now there’s talk that the car used is a white Honda. Mohammed Abu-Khdeir was heading towards the mosque located a few paces from his home for morning prayers when he was captured.

      • Walid
        July 2, 2014, 7:59 am

        That scene at the Shuafat tram station will surely signal the end of allowing Palestinians to use the tram or to have a station at Shuafat.

      • Bumblebye
        July 2, 2014, 10:01 am

        The writers of fiction are as determined to make a pig’s ear out of the evidence in this case as they were in the Nakba day killings. When listening to bbcR4’s World at One the report stated that the abduction was caught on the family’s security cameras and showed the lad being bundled into a waiting ISraeli car! I guess those cameras and that evidence won’t last long. GoI gotta protect its ‘own’ from repercussions. There must be impunity for zionists!

  17. just
    July 2, 2014, 8:06 am

    “The incidents began with a demonstration that right-wing extremists, headed by former MK Michael Ben Ari and Itamar Ben Gvir, organized under the Chords Bridge by the city’s western entrance. Demonstrators shouted slogans like “we want revenge” and “enough of the murderous government.”

    About 400 demonstrators attended and managed to block the road under the bridge for an extended period. The police evacuated them from the spot, and they proceeded along Jaffa Road with the declared goal of reaching the Old City in order to attack Arabs.

    Police officers blocked their path to Zahal Square, located between City Hall and Jaffa Gate. The demonstrators dispersed into smaller groups that began running into the center of town looking for Arabs. The groups, some made up of pro-settler “hilltop youth,” many ultra-Orthodox Jews and right-wing activists, shouted slogans such as “death to Arabs,” “a Jew is a brother, an Arab is a bastard,” “we want war,” “Mohammed is dead,” and “Kahane was right.”

    While running, some of them were asking dark-skinned people “what’s the time?” in Hebrew in order to check for an Arab accent in the reply.

    In a more serious case, a group of a hundred demonstrators identified three Palestinian workers in a downtown parking lot. The three were having their evening meal to end their daily Ramadan fast, when the mob attacked them. One of the Palestinians chased away some of the attackers with a club and then one of the mob members used pepper spray on the Palestinians. Others started to throw stones at them.

    One of the workers suffered a head injury and was evacuated for medical treatment.

    “I was in the middle of a Ramadan meal. Someone passed by and noticed I am an Arab,” said Mohammed Sayyad of A-Tor. “He called out to everyone else, saying ‘Here’s an Arab, here’s an Arab.’ They started throwing stones and spraying gas, and cursing, ‘Tomorrow we’re going to kill you.'”

    Undercover police who were there quickly intervened, moved the attackers back and arrested three of them.

    According to Sayyad, the police also threatened to arrest him. “Can I beat up 500 people? What can I do, besides throwing stones back?” he said. “It’s the third time they have attacked me, but it was never as big as this.” Two years ago, it was Sayyad who called the police after Jewish youths in 2012 lynched Jamal Julani, 17, who was seriously wounded.

    It took the police hours to restore scheduled service to the light rail because of the demonstrators. When the trains stopped at individual stations, the rioters got on board and looked for Arab passengers. Light rail security guards stood next to Palestinian passengers to protect them from the mob.”

    link to haaretz.com

    Horrendous.

    • seafoid
      July 2, 2014, 8:55 am

      Year 47 of the occupation.
      Imagine what it’ll be like in year 77.

  18. Talkback
    July 2, 2014, 9:01 am

    So if someone wants to kill Jews, he just has to point to Hamas? How convenient for its enemies.The Hamas has become the Apartheid Junta’s whipping boy.

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