Israel has no answer to BDS, Barghouti tells packed hall at Columbia

US Politics
on 227 Comments

Omar Barghouti’s appearance at Columbia University on Tuesday night felt like a landmark in the Palestinian solidarity movement in the U.S. A large hall at the law school was crowded to overflowing and the mood was celebratory. Luminaries of the community were in attendance, among them Lila Abu-Lughod, Rula Jebreal, Rashid Khalidi, Rebecca Vilkomerson, Nadia Abu El-Haj, Dorothy Zellner, Lia Tarachansky. Barghouti’s speech was hugely optimistic. He said that the Boycott Divestment Sanctions movement was racking up victories far faster than the organizers had imagined when they began nine years ago, faster than the South African movement had progressed. And the BDS movement has the “closet” support of the Netanyahu administration, which was doing its utmost to demonstrate the fallacy of a Jewish democracy.

The suspense of waiting for the Israel supporters to say something was a bit of a fizzle, not the big drama it used to be at such events. Law professor Katherine Franke had urged the crowd not to be civil in discussing one of the most challenging moral questions of our time, and at the end, a man at the back said he had a short question.

“Do you believe that the Jewish people have a right to self determination?” And if so, “Where should it be?”

Barghouti said it was not up to him as a Palestinian to decide whether Jewish communities make up a nation, and where they should have a state. Though he pointed out that there was not consensus among Jews globally about whether they are a people; this is a recent debate, and in fact up till the 1945 the majority of  Jews did not support Jewish nationhood. Then he said sharply:

One thing I do know– not at my expense. If they are a nation and have a right of self-determination, not at my expense. That does not give them the right to expel us or to take our land–

The audience broke into applause, the first time that any speaker had been interrupted by applause in two hours. Barghouti swiftly moved on to other questions. The questioner walked out of the hall.

That summed up the spirit of the event. Its title was, “Palestine’s South Africa Moment?” Barghouti said that Palestine appeared at last to be approaching that moment. Speaker Mahmood Mamdani said it is not. I will get to Mamdani’s analysis in the next few days. In the meantime, though, here is a summary of Barghouti’s remarks.

Barghouti began by quoting Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s declaration in 1923 that because Palestinians would never accept the Zionist takeover of their lands, the Zionists must build an “iron wall” and convince the Palestinians that it was impossible to resist colonization. Barghouti said it was realistic in the view of geopolitics then for Zionists to conclude that Palestinians would give up the struggle, and if Jabotinsky could see President Mahmoud Abbas today, he would “celebrate in his grave: ‘See, I told you, They’ve given up.'”

But recent history shows that Palestinians have not given up, and in fact are commanding the world’s sympathy and attention.

The latest discussion in Israel about the Jewish nation state law has brought to the fore the very possibility of the unraveling of the entire Zionist project. And these are not my words, these are the words of certain very important leaders in Israel, who say that. What’s happening is that the oxymoron of the Jewish and democratic identity of the state of Israel is unraveling.

I can understand the frustration of the extreme right in Israel. ‘Why is the whole world, even the US, against us with this new law? Why are they so mad? We’ve been doing it all along, we’re just making it a bit more formal.’

Since its establishment in 1948, Israel has always consistently discriminated by law against the indigenous Palestinians. Other than ethnically cleansing them of course. So  why is everyone so angry that they’re trying to codify the Jewish identity of the state. Some say it’s at the expense of the democratic identity. What democratic identity? When you have 50 laws that discriminate against a minority of your citizenry, that’s not democracy…

What Netanyahu and his far right government are doing is resolving this oxymoron. It cannot exist any longer. Let’s be very honest, Forget  democracy. This is an ethnocracy… this is a Jewish supremacist state. So– no pretense of democracy. And that’s a very important development because it’s revealing Israel’s true nature.  The last mask of Israel’s so-called democracy has been dropped.

Barghouti moved on to the tactics and success of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement.

We’ve got to see it as our goal, as part of what we do in this country in the BDS movement… to disabuse  Americans of the myth of empire being beneficial to all… Only then will most people in this country realize that Israel does not serve American interests writ large, but the 1 percent’s interests. The great majority of Americans cannot possibly benefit from what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.

Shabtai Shavit, former Mossad chief, wrote in Haaretz a couple of weeks ago, that for the first time in his life, he’s really concerned about the future of the Zionist project. Shabtai Shavit is no lefty. He’s not your typical Che Guevara but an honest to goodness hard core Zionist. He’s really, really concerned… He’s saying, Europe is closing in our faces, European markets, even the US, our best friend,  the relationship can’t be worse, it’s an unprecedented lowpoint. And the third point he mentions as an indicator of this hopelessness, university campuses in the west, like yours, are hothouses for the future leadership of their countries. He says, We’re losing the fight for support for Israel in the academic world. An increasing  number of Jewish students are turning away from  Israel. The global BDS movement has grown and quite  a few Jews are members.

That’s one of the very rare times that an Israeli leader mentions the Jewish dimension of the BDS movement. It’s ignored completely.

Barghouti said that when he wrote an op-ed piece for the New York Times last January, “Why Israel Fears the Boycott,” he had to insist on including the fact that BDS had small but strong Jewish support. That was an “extremely difficult point that I had to negotiate, with the New York Times.”

At appearances in the States, he is invariably asked to compromise on the third plank of the BDS call, honoring the right of return of Palestinian refugees. In fact, this is the most significant right for Palestinian people. The percentage of Palestinians who are refugees, including those internally displaced in Israel, approaches 69 percent. “That is why the right of return is absolutely the most significant right in the BDS call.”

Then Barghouti moved on to describe the great success of the movement, and why he believes Israel is approaching its South Africa moment.

The BDS call was modeled on the South African boycott and divestment call, but you don’t cut and paste. There are important differences. “Israel is a worse system than South African apartheid in some ways.” Israel had committed ethnic cleansing and massacres that were worse than South African episodes, his partners there have told him.

“We’d never seen F16s bomb us in our Bantustans. We never had different license plates on our cars.” And so on and so forth

Israel has a more sophisticated and evolved system of oppression than South Africa’s. And the BDS movement has moved faster than in South Africa.

Since BDS was launched until now, we’ve achieved far more than we had initially thought possible within nine years. Actually, the  movement has gone much, much faster than South Africa. There are many reasons for this. Israel is at the center of universe; Israelis tend to think so– but in some ways  they are, because of United States power, the Holocaust, many factors. The internet.

Communiques from the anti apartheid movement in South Africa to supporters at his alma mater Columbia used to come through some clandestine fax in someone’s basement, Barghouti said. Now social media and email make these communications wide and instantaneous.

In 2013, Israel classified BDS officially as a strategic threat, when it transferred the fight against the movement from the ministry of foreign affairs, a propaganda ministry, to the ministry of strategic affairs.

Why should Israel, a nuclear power that’s still very powerful economically, be afraid of this nonviolent nuisance as they called us in the beginning. Well I would be very afraid if I were them. But I can be a bit smarter in how to fight it. But I won’t tell them that. [Laughter] I think their IQ is dipping, I don’t now what’s happening with Zionism. But when I went to school here, Zionists used to be very smart… Either smarter people have abandoned Zionism or the average IQ of Zionists has gone down, but they’re really not thinking straight. Because they haven’t come up with one smart tactic to fight BDS… since 2005. We’re not being cocky about that. I mean, seriously, we’re not facing serious challenges there. It’s becoming an open door.

For several years the battle was over Israel’s image. Israel has pumped billions into rebranding the country as a liberal democracy and a haven for gays and scientists and artists and entrepreneurs, and abused the Holocaust to foster this image, Barghouti said. And still it competes for unpopularity with North Korea, which spends nothing on propaganda.

The problem is again, talking about IQ– you commit one massacre in Gaza, it [the branding campaign] all disappears. It doesn’t work. Ok you can send over your nice ballerinas and musicians. But then you commit one major war crime and it’s gone. People are not idiots.

Barghouti ran down a list of BDS’s triumphs in the last year or two, including many in the academic community and church community. A year ago he could not have said that the movement was having an economic impact on Israel. Now he can. He cited bank divestments in Europe and Bill Gates‘s sale of shares in an Israeli prison contractor, G4S.

There was a time, he said, when the phrase “Made in South Africa” was “toxic, untouchable.” He said: “We’re not there yet, but we’re getting closer.”

Israel was aiding this trend.

They’re not coming up with rational solutions to BDS. Not that there is an easy solution….There won’t be a solution till the system of oppression which has been revealed to the world…mainly thanks to the BDS movement and the apartheid government[, ends]. We’ve got to give credit to Netanyahu. Without him we could not have reached this far, at this time. It could have taken much, much, much, much longer, but with the help of  the Israeli government, our biggest closet supporters in the world, we’re going much faster.

Increasingly it appears that  Israel’s South Africa moment is arriving at last, he said.

 

227 Responses

  1. just
    December 5, 2014, 12:26 pm

    “What Netanyahu and his far right government are doing is resolving this oxymoron. It cannot exist any longer. Let’s be very honest, Forget democracy. This is an ethnocracy… this is a Jewish supremacist state. So– no pretense of democracy. And that’s a very important development because it’s revealing Israel’s true nature. The last mask of Israel’s so-called democracy has been dropped.”

    Amen.

    When 95% of Israelis celebrated/supported/justified the latest massacre in Gaza, the mask melted.

  2. Herb Glatter
    December 5, 2014, 12:48 pm

    Ummm Barghouti born in Qatar, studies at Tel Aviv University Israel – hypocrite enough for you?
    Barghouti was born in Qatar, grew up in Egypt and later moved to Ramallah (West Bank) as an adult. He holds a master’s degree in electrical engineering from Columbia University. Although Barghouti actively lobbies for worldwide economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel, Barghouti himself is currently studying at Tel Aviv University (TAU). He holds a masters degree in philosophy (ethics) from the university, and is pursuing a PhD.[1][2] When interviewed regarding his degree from TAU, Barghouti commented: “my studies at Tel Aviv University are a personal matter and I have no interest in commenting.”[3][2] A petition was created that drew over 184,000 signatories asking for the university to expel him, ultimately he was not expelled.[4]

    • Blownaway
      December 5, 2014, 2:50 pm

      Palestinians are taught to value an education because that is one thing that cannot be stolen from them. That is why Palestinians tend to be the most educated. Many traveled overseas to Italy and Russia and the US over the years for educational purposes. Just like Bibi is US educated. As for where people are born, it doesn’t matter, unlike many Jews in Israel who are not ethnically semitic but Jewish by religion who were born in Europe and other countries (Latvian Lieberman), Barghouti is ethnically Palestinian…

    • Nite_Owl
      December 5, 2014, 4:25 pm

      The university is on Palestinian land. Why shouldn’t he go to it?

      • talknic
        December 5, 2014, 6:17 pm

        Nite_Owl
        The university is on Palestinian land”

        Tel Aviv is within Israel’s self proclaimed, recognized and official boundaries. The same self proclaimed boundaries that guide ICJ opinions on the Question of Palestine and all UNSC/UN resolutions on the Question of Palestine giving Israel the opportunity to adhere to the binding laws those resolutions re-affirm and emphasize .

        Israeli Government Proclamation: link to trumanlibrary.org

        Map: link to wp.me

        Israeli Govt Statement to the UNSC 22nd May 1948 reaffirming Israel’s understanding of its actual sovereign extent: link to pages.citebite.com

      • eGuard
        December 8, 2014, 9:10 am

        You mean, Talknic, TAU is not on stolen land at all? No RoR claims can be made?

      • talknic
        December 8, 2014, 7:37 pm

        @ eGuard
        “… TAU is not on stolen land at all? No RoR claims can be made?”

        One should read the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel very carefully

        “We appeal – in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months – to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions”

        The people Israel is preventing from returning to Israeli had a right to Israeli citizenship. IOW Non-Jewish Israelis!

        Israel also prevents non-Israelis from returning to the non-Israeli territory it holds under occupation.

      • talknic
        December 8, 2014, 8:01 pm

        A further two points on ROR & the Declaration plea for “the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions”

        1) Is anyone really so naive as to believe the people who drafted the declaration did not know about the ethnic cleansing of non-Jews being executed under Plan Dalet in the weeks leading up to the declaration?

        2) Is anyone so naive as to believe that the Arabs invited to stay on the 15th May 1948, but prevented from returning had increased significantly by August 1948? link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org Our knowledge of the human reproductive gestation period tells us it was highly unlikely

        The Hasbara really is for dimwits

    • Giles
      December 5, 2014, 4:54 pm

      “A petition was created that drew over 184,000 signatories asking for the university to expel him.”

      How sick a nation is Israel?

    • talknic
      December 5, 2014, 6:01 pm

      @ Herb Glatter “Ummm Barghouti born in Qatar, studies at Tel Aviv University Israel – hypocrite enough for you?”

      2) Tel Aviv is actually within Israel link to wp.me

      1) He didn’t choose where to be born. BTW by your criteria only one of the signatories to Israel’s Declaration of statehood wasn’t a hypocrite
      David Ben-Gurion – Płońsk, Poland
      Rabbi Kalman Kahana – Galicia (Ukraine)
      Aharon Zisling – Minsk, Belarus
      Yitzhak Ben-Zvi – Poltava (Ukraine)
      Saadia Kobashi – Yemen
      Daniel Auster – Knihinin (Ukraine)
      Rachel Cohen – Odesa
      David-Zvi Pinkas – Sopron, Austria/Hungary
      Mordechai Bentov = Grodzisk Mazowiecki, Poland
      Moshe Kol – Pinsk, Belarus
      Eliyahu Berlignee – Russia
      Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Levin – Góra Kalwaria, Russia
      Eliezer Kaplan – Minsk, Russia
      Peretz Bernstein – Meiningen, Germany
      Abraham Katznelson – Bobruisk, Belorussia
      Rabbi Wolf Gold – Stettin, Germany (Poland)
      Meir David Loewenstein – Copenhagen, Denmark
      Pinchas Rosen – Berlin, Germany
      Meir Grabovsky – Rîbniţa, Russia
      David Remez – Kopys, Belorussia
      Yitzhak Gruenbaum – Warsaw, Poland
      Zvi Luria (Lurie) – Lodz, Poland
      Berl Repetur – Ruzhyn, Ukraine
      Dr. Abraham Granovsky – Făleşti, Russia
      Golda Myerson – Kiev, Ukraine
      Mordekhai Shattner – Chernovitz ? ( Czernowitz ?), Ukraine ?
      Nachum Nir – Warsaw, Poland
      Ben-Zion Sternberg – Czernowitz, Austria/Hungary
      Eliyahu Dobkin – Babruysk, Russia
      Zvi Segal – Lithuania
      Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit – Tiberias, Ottoman Empire
      Meir Wilner-Kovner – Vilnius, Lithuania
      Rabbi Yehuda Leib Hacohen Fishman – Mărculești, Russia
      Haim-Moshe Shapira – Grodno, Belarus
      Zerach Warhaftig – Volkovysk, Russia
      Moshe Shertok – Kherson, Ukraine
      Herzl Vardi – Kaunas, Russia

      Did you have a point Herb? Say … haven’t we met before? link to mondoweiss.net

      • just
        December 6, 2014, 9:16 am

        Thanks for that, talknic.

        See, there was this Nakba, Herb. The Zionists made a lot of the surviving Palestinians refugees from the lands that they stole…others they’ve imprisoned in their own land.

        btw, one can be an advocate for justice and be from ANYWHERE.

      • JohnB
        December 6, 2014, 10:46 am

        Deft riposte! Made my day.

      • Elliot
        December 7, 2014, 10:02 pm

        Interesting breakdown of the signatories of Israel’s Declaration of Independence. Some progress compared to the U.S.’s founding document 175 years earlier with the inclusion of two women.
        Also worth noting, that of the 38, all are Ashkenazi Jews, born in Eastern Europe. The two exception are the the one highlighted in the post and Saadia Kobashi of Yemen.

      • piotr
        December 14, 2014, 10:25 pm

        As one born in this part of Europe, I would make some objections. One should be consistent: borders at the time of birth, or at the time of the declararion, or today? That said:

        Odesa is probably Odessa
        If Grodzisk Mazowiecki counts as Poland, so should Góra Kalwaria
        The following spellings are Romanian: Rîbniţa, Făleşti, Mărculești (I guess in Molvova, previously Russian Empire and Soviet Union)
        Chernovitz is German spelling, Czerniowce is Polish, Chernivtsi is (transliterated) Ukrainian, Cernăuți is Romanian, city originally in the Principality of Moldova, then in Austria, Romania and now Ukraine

        Bobruisk is transliterated Russian and Babruysk is transliterated Belorussian
        If Vilnius counts as Lithuania, so does Kaunas

        In any case, like Cohen suggests a Jew, Bathouti is a very distinctly Palestinian name.

    • catporn
      December 5, 2014, 7:16 pm

      Ummm Barghouti born in Qatar, studies at Tel Aviv University Israel – hypocrite enough for you
      I’d never considered that point, you’ve certainly convinced me, from now on I renounce the BDS movement and fully embrace Israeli apartheid, ethnic cleansing and it’s ultimate goal of an Arab free Levant.
      Thank you for opening my eyes and please keep up the important work of discrediting BDS.

    • ldq1997
      December 6, 2014, 11:33 am

      I must be stupid, but I cannot understand what is hypocritical about being born in Qatar and educated at Tel Aviv University. Is that why 184,000 people signed a petition to have him expelled from the university? Apparently Herb’s post is supposed to be an indictment of Mr. Barghouti for all of his sins – like being born in Qatar and attending Tel Aviv University, not to speak of that degree in electrical engineering from Columbia. I don’t understand what Herb is trying to say. Can anyone explain to me?

      • Annie Robbins
        December 6, 2014, 3:36 pm

        ldq, herb tried to elaborate the other day but it didn’t pass moderation. i can’t recall exactly what it said but the logic was not only flawed, it was missing altogether! (spam)

      • tokyobk
        December 6, 2014, 9:00 pm

        The argument is that Barghouti asks people to boycott Israel but does not do so himself so, the argument goes, he is a hypocrite and the the movement is hypocritical. Moreover he has argued that Palestinians have natural rights where as the colonial settlers have acquired rights which are subject to review by the natives once the proper order is restored. Yes, I believe Herb wants to say, he is himself in fact an immigrant like Said and Arafat, thus subject to same criticism as Jewish claims.

        This is supposed to invalidate BDS, though as pointed out Gandhi. Mandela and King (and Fanon etc…) all used the dominant system to their own liberation purposes.

        Talknic points out the goose and gander hypocrisy of the criticism.

        Though, now imo, One State calls for a discussion on natural and acquired rights as they apply to natives and immigrants, both as Barghouti would have it but also evenly applied.

      • Mooser
        December 6, 2014, 11:00 pm

        Ah “acquired rights”! That must be powerful stuff, a principle long enshrined in international law. I hope it can help in some way.

      • tokyobk
        December 7, 2014, 12:23 am
      • tokyobk
        December 7, 2014, 12:49 am

        More of Barghouti and the concept of acquired and natural rights in One State:

        link to al-shabaka.org

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 5:07 pm

        Tokyobk, I’m glad we agree, the settlers must acquire rights somewhere or they will be badly used. They don’t really have any rights as Israelis, and Israel doesn’t even make an effort to acquire the land they live on.
        Somebody will have to help them, get out of their situation. Israel sure as hell won’t.

      • Citizen
        December 8, 2014, 10:16 am

        ReMax has been making a bundle by facilitating settler acquisition of land in occupied territory. Shouldn’t those settlers and ReMax be held to judicial notice regarding international law’s cloud on any ownership title claimed to have been passed? Caveat emptor?

      • kma
        December 8, 2014, 12:38 pm

        to Idq1997:
        I don’t get it either. But I do get that it is the ONLY response a zionist has to BDS. Which pretty much amounts to nothing.
        That part is becoming more fun lately.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 12:52 am

        “ReMax has been making a bundle by facilitating settler acquisition of land in occupied territory.”

        See? They’re “acquiring” the rights to it.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2014, 5:50 pm

        “Shouldn’t those settlers and ReMax be held to judicial notice regarding international law’s cloud on any ownership title claimed to have been passed?”

        Oh, no, they signed for the property just the way it is. I’m sure the exact legal status of the property is somewhere in the documents.
        Of course, when you go to sell and can’t offer the buyer clear title, things could get sticky.
        I guess that ‘clear title’ to property purchased in occupied territory purchased from the occupiers, is one of those “acquired rights”.

      • Citizen
        December 10, 2014, 6:36 pm

        England’s position on business transactions and rights in the OT:

        link to gov.uk

        Short version: It’s risky business. Talk to a lawyer.

    • petersz
      December 7, 2014, 5:52 pm

      Nelson Mandela studied Law in an Apartheid university. Israel has forbidden any Arab University in Israel so where else is he suppose to study?

  3. bilal a
    December 5, 2014, 1:12 pm

    Robert Kagan resigns from The New Republic along with much of the neocon masthead

    Implosion of a Washington institution

    link to politico.com

  4. amigo
    December 5, 2014, 1:14 pm

    I wonder if the late Edward Said was there in spirit.

  5. Krauss
    December 5, 2014, 1:37 pm

    It’s crazy how fast everything has gone. I have been at this website for a few years now. I remember how we all huddled together in massive celebrations over a non-statement by some local bureaucrat.

    I remember when the SJP chapters were non-entities, now they are the most important group of activism on American campuses, perhaps in addition to black groups(and both are increasingly working together).

    I still think that even if Israel loses America, there are serious questions over how viable that will affect the situation on the ground. Barghouti is overoptimistic on this and he doesn’t even want to adress it.

    I mean, for “liberal” Zionists, it will be a disaster, since Zionism is a core part of their Jewish identity and many want to live their comfortable lives in the West. But Israel doesn’t rise or fall with them, even if many seem to think so. I’ve always said: Israel cannot be broken economically, but only culturally. Will it be able to withstand the cultural pressure? It doesn’t identify with the rest of the Middle East. It only has the West.

    And if it loses the West, it has nobody else. Will Israel be able to live in that crushing cultural isolation, forever? The term “Masada state” is very apt.

    • seafoid
      December 5, 2014, 2:26 pm

      Krauss

      “I’ve always said: Israel cannot be broken economically”

      Israel exported $95 bn worth of goods in 2013 , around 35% of GDP
      Do you think goys can be forced to buy those goods ?

      If some short seller were to take a pot at the Israel bonds I wouldn’t bet on Israel making it. It’s an anomaly.

      • Mooser
        December 5, 2014, 3:43 pm

        So if Israel had to pay its rightful tab for its military, and the support the settlement and take-over Jerusalem enterprise and all it entails, they can handle it? Gonna take a lot of blue boxes.

      • seafoid
        December 5, 2014, 4:34 pm

        And reparations, Mooser.
        Loads of stuff off balance sheet to keep the finance minister awake at night.

      • ritzl
        December 5, 2014, 6:41 pm

        “And reparations…”

        Just wanted to say it again, seafoid.

      • Mooser
        December 5, 2014, 7:19 pm

        I’ve never been able to figure out if the one-state or indeed, two-state solution was supposed to start with a complete amnesty for Israel and all Israelis and their actions.

      • Citizen
        December 8, 2014, 10:23 am

        Don’t US local governmental entities and their pensions own most of those Israel bonds?

    • gracie fr
      December 5, 2014, 3:05 pm

      Carmi Gilon, former Shin Bet Head, speaks:

      link to facebook.com

      • Mooser
        December 5, 2014, 3:47 pm

        He’s seems convinced Netanyahoo and his pals are going for the good old Masadadammerung finish.

      • seafoid
        December 5, 2014, 4:51 pm

        Zionism as slow suicide

      • Annie Robbins
        December 5, 2014, 5:44 pm

        Zionism as slow suicide

        i think it’s speeding up considerably. the next few months should be crucial because i think, according to certain numerologists, this year (astrological calendar) is a defining crystalizing moment or something, according to some peoples understanding of the kabbalah. which is one reason we’re seeing this dramatic escalation over al aqsa. watch for the crazies to get much crazier and the government making even more moves to push this craziness/fanaticism further thru legislation. i could be wrong but i doubt it. passover this year is supposed to be a real bangup, or so i have heard.

    • a blah chick
      December 5, 2014, 3:35 pm

      I think the summer carnage in Gaza was a real seminal moment. It showed very clearly where Israel’s soul is and who are the REAL human rights champions.

      • catporn
        December 5, 2014, 7:49 pm

        I agree, I remember thinking through the atrocities this summer that all this blood, gore and senseless civilian death and injury is what it would take for the world to sit up and pay attention. Israel’s continuous announcements of illegal building programmes, racist laws and other daily vulgarities just help to keep them in the spotlight. Activists and journalists worldwide also deserve credit for keeping the issues in the public consciousness.

    • seafoid
      December 5, 2014, 4:40 pm

      A core part of their jewish identity. Chicken soup and jokes are better at withstanding the rigours of time. Putting faith in empires is what the prophets used to rail against and why gd used to get so frustrated with his people. Lots of Germans got over blut und drang. Jews can do it too.

      • Marnie
        December 6, 2014, 1:13 pm

        Amen Seafoid –

      • Mooser
        December 6, 2014, 11:06 pm

        “Chicken soup and jokes are better at withstanding the rigours of time.”

        Chicken soup, which, of course, is good (okay, nearly ambrosia) is actually much easier to make, and quicker to prepare, than pho broth, which is beef-bone based.
        I found this out last night, got a tutorial straight from the lady who runs the restaurant. We won’t be making it at home. Takes ten hours.

      • RoHa
        December 7, 2014, 12:50 am

        “Takes ten hours.”

        And that why the Americans, etc., lost the war. They wanted quick results. The North Vietnamese were prepared to go for the long haul.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 2:11 pm

        Believe me, RoHa, the first time I ate pho I knew exactly why we lost the war, and why we damn well should have.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 2:28 pm

        Pho is sublime…there are so many other Vietnamese goodies (healthy, too)!

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 3:01 pm

        “there are so many other Vietnamese goodies”

        Yes, there’s lot’s of great stuff, but I’m sort of, well, faithful to pho. Noting differences in the broth from place to place, stuff like that. And oh, ‘fatty tendon’ owns my heart, and probably, a good deal more of my circulatory system! It’s making a plaque in my honor!

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 3:11 pm

        It is a good thing to be faithful to, and a beneficial one!

      • Carolus Galviensis
        December 8, 2014, 7:23 pm

        The same seafoid as in ‘The Irish Economy’?

    • ziusudra
      December 6, 2014, 4:15 am

      Greetings Krauss,
      …Israel cannot be broken ‘economically’….
      Ischcabibel, ask US Citizens from 1929 to 1941 just how they fared during that time?
      ziusudra

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 2:31 pm

        +1!

  6. Mooser
    December 5, 2014, 3:40 pm

    “Either smarter people have abandoned Zionism or the average IQ of Zionists has gone down, but they’re really not thinking straight.”

    And some day, this pornucopia of impediments and disabilities which arises in the average Zionist will be apellated, delineated, and known by its right moniker !

  7. lonely rico
    December 5, 2014, 5:13 pm

    Forget democracy. This is an ethnocracy…

    The only Judeocracy in the Middle East.

    • JohnB
      December 6, 2014, 10:59 am

      The Zionist colony ‘In the Middle East’ . . . yes.

  8. pabelmont
    December 5, 2014, 5:44 pm

    I was at this Columbia meeting, and it blew me away. A very happy event, happy BIG audience, people sitting on the stairs, let the fire marshall say what he might. A high point, was K. Franke as moderator saying she would not demand “civility” here, or anywhere else (except perhaps at a dancing class).

    Later Phil’ll tell about why Mamdani did not think this was a “South Africa Moment” (as I recall the gist was that, in S.A., there was ultimately agreement between blacks and whites to talk and make peace. That is VERY far away in Palestine.).

  9. Annie Robbins
    December 5, 2014, 5:45 pm

    this could be the best photo i have ever seen of omar. i love it. he’s a wonderful man.

    • Philip Weiss
      December 5, 2014, 6:56 pm

      Do you mean my photo at the top, Annie?

      • ziusudra
        December 6, 2014, 4:26 am

        Greetings Phil Weiss,
        At last, i’ve got you face to face & i get my say:
        You & your staff are doing glorious, progressive & objective journalism!
        ziusudra
        PS I’m especially ‘tickled pink’ because your efforts are basically from a part of
        a ‘Jewishness’ perspective.

      • just
        December 6, 2014, 3:42 pm

        :-0, nice one, ziusudra.

      • oldgeezer
        December 6, 2014, 4:49 pm

        Don’t sweat it. I love you Phil… maybe not but if it cheers you up hehe

  10. Kolin Thumbadoo
    December 6, 2014, 12:42 am

    Omar is quite correct to state that the Zionist State is far more brutal, nakedly so, than the Apartheid regime upon which it is modelled, ever was. The repression is more efficiently ruthless, systematic and routine. We must also remember that this is a comparison of degrees while not in any way diminishing the fact that “Apartheid’ was deemed ‘a crime against humanity”. It is no co-incidence then that the BDS draws its inspiration from the anti-apartheid boycott campaigns but with more immediate effect. Live, real time communication and the facilitating pivotal role played by the US and its array of lackeys like Australia, Canada etc all contribute to an ever growing international consciousness that fuels a flourishing BDS campaign. Another interesting aspect of the internationalisation of the Palestinian struggle is the linkages being made with internal US struggles like racism and poverty. American exceptionalism is being confronted.

  11. JohnB
    December 6, 2014, 11:24 am

    When I lived in ‘South’ – Tennessee, near Pulaski – I found it difficult to understand how the decent people I knew could be the same species as the KKK. But they were not the only ones allowed to ‘bear arms’ . . . nor were they officially sponsored by the gummint.

    I am equally puzzled by the contrast between the decent Jews have known over my three score and ten (+) and the Zionistas . . . that ARE sponsored by ‘my’ gummint.

  12. Horizontal
    December 6, 2014, 2:51 pm

    Just today I got an email from my gf’s daughter. She’s enrolled in Concordia University in Montreal. She sent this link simply because she designed the cover art for the school paper and wanted to let us know. Imagine my surprise when I read the contents:

    montrealgazette.com

    Concordia undergrad students vote in favour of Israel boycott

    Concordia’s undergraduate students have voted in favour of a boycott of Israel, although it remains unclear how such action might actually affect daily life on campus.
    The ballots for question No. 8, the most controversial referendum question asked to students in a series of votes held during the past week, were finally counted on Friday evening. They had initially been sealed as a result of the explosive nature of the issue and dozens of complaints to the Concordia Student Union (CSU).

    The question read: “Do you approve of the CSU endorsing the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement against Israel?”

    The “yes” side garnered 1,276 votes, while 1,067 ballots were marked “no.” A total of 237 voters abstained from the question. The overall turnout, at 2,580, was extremely low. There are 35,000 registered undergraduates at Concordia who were eligible to vote.

    “We knew from the get-go that any result would be very, very tight,” said Lauren Luz, a member of the “no” committee. “This is the outcome, and this is what the students chose.”

    Luz added that the “no” side ran on a campaign that had very little to do with Israel itself.

    “Our whole campaign was based on being here to unite the students and to stay away from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because it is such a complex foreign issue,” she explained. “We really did get our message across.”

    The BDS movement stems from a declaration issued in July 2005, signed by about 100 Palestinian organizations, calling for boycotts, divestment and sanctions against Israel that mirror those levied against South Africa during the 1980s. A special committee (not affiliated with the university administration) is expected to be formed — open to the public and with representatives from both sides — to discuss the next steps, said Luz.

    Another maybe not-so-small victory.

    • Annie Robbins
      December 6, 2014, 3:01 pm

      what fantastic news horizontal. and lovely cover art. ;)

      • just
        December 6, 2014, 3:39 pm

        ditto

    • Walid
      December 6, 2014, 3:50 pm

      Bravo to your gf’s daughter, Horizontal. Concordia left a very bad taste in Netanyahu’s mouth in 2002, and so did the rest of Canada wherever he went that year. The riots at Concordia prevented Netanyahu from showing up to give a speech there.

      From BBC News in 2002:

      “10 September, 2002,

      Canada protests stop Netanyahu speech
      Protesters hurl rocks after breaking a window at Concordia University in Montreal
      Police dispersed the crowd with pepper spray.

      About 200 pro-Palestinian protesters have clashed with police in the Canadian city of Montreal, prompting officials to cancel a planned speech by former Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

      Before Mr Netanyahu arrived, demonstrators packed the hall at Concordia University where he was to speak – tossing chairs at police, who used pepper spray to clear the room.

      Binyamin Netanyahu speaks to reporters in Montreal
      Netanyahu called the protesters ‘zealots’
      University officials then announced that the event had been cancelled because of security concerns. Five demonstrators were arrested and a window was smashed.

      More protests were scheduled for his appearance on Tuesday in Toronto and Mr Netanyahu said he planned to raise the Montreal demonstration in talks with the Canadian Prime Minister, Jean Chretien.

      Mr Netanyahu accused the protesters of being against democracy and in favour of terrorism.

      “They’re supporting Saddam Hussein, they’re supporting [Yasser] Arafat, they’re supporting [Osama] Bin Laden,” Mr Netanyahu said.

      A crowd of mostly pro-Palestinian protesters also shouted slogans outside a theatre in Winnipeg, where Mr Netanyahu, who was Israel’s prime minister from 1996 to 1999, gave a speech later on Monday.

      At the Montreal protest, some demonstrators accused Mr Netanyahu of being a “war criminal”.

      Protesters clash with police in Montreal
      Some protesters called Mr Netanyahu a ‘war criminal’
      “There’s no free speech for hate speech,” said protester David Battistuzzi, 24, a former Concordia University student.

      “This man said in 1989 Israel should have taken advantage of the Tiananmen Square massacre to expel the Palestinians from Israel.

      “He’s a violent man… this man is a war criminal.”

      The university was embroiled in controversy last autumn over a student publication containing pro-Palestinian views that critics said promoted violence.

      link to news.bbc.co.uk

      • Horizontal
        December 6, 2014, 7:19 pm

        Had no idea that happened, Walid. Serves him right. He should get the bum’s rush wherever he sets foot instead of standing Os from those tools in congress. As an American, it’s about the most cringe-inducing spectacle I can think of.

      • Walid
        December 7, 2014, 2:12 am

        Horizontal, speaking about the “Link”, Sir George Williams University, that later became part of Concordia University had been the site of of another student riot in 1969 provoked by accusations of unfair grading of Carribean students. It resulted in the thrashing of the university’s main computer room on the 9th floor of the Henry F. Hall Building. The event had been preceded by the university’s paper that was then called “The Georgian” that had been given over for one issue to the Carribean students that turned it into a “Black Georgian”. It would be great if today the paper would be turned over to the Palestinians for a “Palestinian Link” issue.

        link to cbc.ca

      • Horizontal
        December 7, 2014, 2:24 am

        Sorry, but reading your post, the first thing that popped intro my mind was, they had computers in 1969?

      • RoHa
        December 7, 2014, 3:19 am

        In 1969 the University of Adelaide had two!

        The larger one was had an air-conditioned room of its own. The smaller one (somewhat larger than fridge-freezer) could survive without its now room. Combined, they were nearly as powerful as the processor in your toaster.

        My brother learned to code FORTRAN on them.

        (In recent years used to urge my students to model themselves after the perfect students that we were. I would adopt an intolerably smug expression and tell them “We never wasted our time on computer games.” Hardly any of them guessed why not.)

    • catporn
      December 6, 2014, 4:36 pm

      That’s fantastic news Horizontal, in fact this whole page is a much needed injection of optimism, and pabelmont was at the event too, great! I get to live vicariously through others stories, good enough for me, as long as we’re moving in the right direction and that’s how it appears, even if it’s two steps forward one step back.

      • Horizontal
        December 6, 2014, 7:14 pm

        Thanks for the props, everybody. I’ll pass your compliments along, Annie . . .

        I was amused with the quote I bolded, about the no side wanting to “unite students,” and not hurt their little heads with such a “complex issue.” Apparently this is all part of the new strategy for defending Israel by not actively defending Israel, since it seems like a harder and harder thing to do, especially with this age bracket.

        Yes, whether it’s fast or slow, we do indeed seem to be moving in the right direction.

        I’ve lived to see people walk on the moon; I was interning at a TV station and saw the Berlin Wall fall; and I’d like to live long enough to see Israel reach a similar Berlin Wall Moment. It may be happening sooner than I think.

  13. DoubleStandard
    December 6, 2014, 3:09 pm

    Wow. 7.3% turnout in all, and less than 50% of that 7.3% voted yes if we count abstentions as votes.

    The Jewish people are shaking at this latest death knell for their national home.

    • catporn
      December 6, 2014, 6:13 pm

      It’s not about ‘the Jewish people’, it’s the state of Israel, try to keep up, and a win is a win. Less than 20% if the UK electorate voted for Tory, never the less we have to endure 5 years of their govt.

    • Horizontal
      December 6, 2014, 7:33 pm

      Jewish people aren’t doing anything, DS.

      Now the college Zionists, on the other hand, can’t even defend Israel openly anymore because it’s such a ruined product. So they have to stoop to things like “civility” and “uniting the student body” and “too complex” to understand (when in actuality, war crimes, stealing land and Apartheid are easily grasped).

      So tell me, DS, if Israel is so wonderful, and BDS is such a waste of time, why the change in strategy? Why not argue for Israel on it’s merits? Someone’s very much worried, despite your whistling past the graveyard post.

  14. DoubleStandard
    December 6, 2014, 3:11 pm

    Mr. Barghouti is the leader of a cult (Finkelstein also described it that way) whose followers mindlessly heed grand apocalyptic predictions.

    It’s the uncompromising nature of Mr. Barghouti and the people he represents that is responsible for the despondency and plight of the Palestinian people.

    • just
      December 6, 2014, 3:38 pm

      Uh, no DS. It’s the fact that Israel never sought peace~ ever~ with the indigenous Palestinians.

      It’s the Israeli Occupation and frequent massacring of innocents, not Barghouti.

    • Horizontal
      December 7, 2014, 2:20 am

      uncompromising

      DS, take that word and apply it to Israel for the last 65 years. After you’ve done that, get back to us.

      So Mr. Barghouti, and not Israel’s colonialism, is responsible for the “despondency and plight of the Palestinian people.”

      Do you even know what you are saying?

    • ziusudra
      December 7, 2014, 6:32 am

      Greetings double Standard,
      ..it’s the uncompromising nature…….

      66 years of muscling in on the territory of the Falesteeni, albeit yiddle by yiddle, but moving at a constant pace shows that Zionistan’s Grand zionistic plan has manifested itself totally of not only a greater Israel, but a greater Jewish empire not at all compatible to collective Israelis & that of 5 Sects of only 6 million people.
      I Lol of just how Zioites are going to remain a guarantee for longevity & Oy, just imagine Mr. Money bags US shrugs on his ME hegemonial aspirations? Enter Exodus!
      ziusudra

    • amigo
      December 7, 2014, 7:03 am

      “Mr. Barghouti is the leader of a cult (Finkelstein also described it that way) whose followers mindlessly heed grand apocalyptic predictions.” DS

      ” apocalyptic predictions” .Thats a laugh coming from a zionist.

      “One day after the UN vote to partition Palestine, Menachem Begin, the commander of the Irgun gang and Israel’s future Prime Minister between 1977-1983, proclaimed: “The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.” (Iron Wall p. 25)”

    • eGuard
      December 8, 2014, 9:35 am

      DS illustrates what Barghouti said: the IQ of Zionists is going down.

    • kma
      December 8, 2014, 12:56 pm

      hahaha, yet ANOTHER example of having no argument against BDS. “the uncompromising nature of Mr. Barghouti”.
      That’s not even mudslinging…

  15. hophmi
    December 6, 2014, 3:31 pm

    More blowing smoke. There is no empirical evidence that Israel’s economy has suffered BDS at all. In fact, GDP growth in the West Bank is quite high, in spite of people like Barghouti.

    • Annie Robbins
      December 6, 2014, 3:48 pm

      link to cia.gov

      Economy – overview:

      The West Bank – has sustained a moderate rate of economic growth since 2008. Inflows of donor aid and government spending have driven most of the gains, however. Private sector development has been weak. After a multiyear downturn following the start of the second intifada in 2000, overall standard-of-living measures have recovered and now exceed levels seen in the late 1990s. Despite the Palestinian Authority’s (PA) successful implementation of economic and security reforms and the easing of some movement and access restrictions by the Israeli Government, Israeli closure policies continue to disrupt labor and trade flows, industrial capacity, and basic commerce, eroding the productive capacity of the West Bank economy. The biggest impediments to economic improvements in the West Bank remain Palestinians’ inability to access land and resources in Israeli-controlled areas, import and export restrictions, and a high-cost capital structure. The PA for the foreseeable future will continue to rely heavily on donor aid for its budgetary needs, and West Bank economic activity will depend largely on the PA’s ability to attract such aid.

    • Horizontal
      December 6, 2014, 7:53 pm

      There is no empirical evidence that Israel’s economy has suffered BDS at all. In fact, GDP growth in the West Bank is quite high . . .

      (I promised myself, every time one of these guys (?) posts some version of this on MW, I’m going to ask for my $3 billion dollars back. So here goes . . . )

      Hey, hophmi, can I have my $3 billion back? Sounds like won’t be needing it.

      • amigo
        December 8, 2014, 6:50 am

        “Hey, hophmi, can I have my $3 billion back? Sounds like won’t be needing it. “Horizontal.

        hey horizontal , why not ask for the circa 150 billion given to Israel since 1949.

        link to wrmea.org

    • kma
      December 8, 2014, 1:02 pm

      BDS doesn’t necessarily have to worry about Israel’s “economy”. If the boycotts of HP or Veolia were successful, for example, those companies would STOP their complicity in the crimes that BDS is directly concerned with. You’ll understand this if you read the BDS platform. If you don’t, it won’t change anything. :-)
      In the end, a post-zionist Israel may have a healthy “economy” from the river to the sea. Nothing wrong with that.

  16. DoubleStandard
    December 6, 2014, 3:50 pm

    I would also like to comment that all of BDS’ victories have been directed at the occupation of the west bank and Gaza Strip.

    There is virtually 0 public support for the right of return. Most people, even those who are intelligent and committed to keeping up with foreign policy, don’t even fully understand what it means.

    • oldgeezer
      December 6, 2014, 4:47 pm

      Which public is that? If you mean Israeli’s then I’m not surprised. If you mean the US then surely those who favour a one state solution should count in that public. If you mean world wide do you have a source for your virtually 0?

      • DoubleStandard
        December 6, 2014, 5:26 pm

        One state doesn’t necessarily mean the right of return of the people living in Lebanon and Jordan.

        It could mean that, but it could also mean a single state covering Israel and the West Bank with a 60 percent Jewish majority.

    • Horizontal
      December 6, 2014, 7:36 pm

      Most people, even those who are intelligent and committed to keeping up with foreign policy, don’t even fully understand what it means.

      Reference, please.

    • kma
      December 8, 2014, 1:10 pm

      I actually think current events CLARIFY what right-of-return means. There are Palestinian refugees leaving places like Iraq and Syria, yet none are allowed back into Palestine.
      Things like that make it really easy for me to explain it to people who don’t know much about it. I’m also pretty sure that the people in the countries that are flooded with refugees of US wars get it quite clearly.

  17. yonah fredman
    December 6, 2014, 3:55 pm

    I have done no research on the efficacy of BDS.

    Currently the Middle East is a mess, in turmoil, and the images of journalists being beheaded predominates. If one removes Israel versus Palestine from its context, most people see Israel suppressing Palestinians. If one views it in the context: realists will ask: What will this new Palestine look like? Like the MB in Egypt? Like Assad, ISIL, like Iraq? What is the role model that can be pointed to as: see, this is what we will achieve when Palestine is no longer under the Zionists’ control. In fact, there is no such example: Lebanon? Tunisia? Maybe I haven’t studied enough to find the role model and I just assume there isn’t one.

    BDS is in good shape because it does not need to appeal to realists, only to the idealists. It need not appeal to the reality of the region. It can remove Palestine versus Israel from its context and pretend that the region is functioning smoothly and Israel Palestine is the only problem.

    • eljay
      December 6, 2014, 4:11 pm

      >> yonah fredman @ December 6, 2014, 3:55 pm

      What a steaming pile of Zio-supremacist “morality” (goal + methods): Because the rapist cannot know what his victim will do should he set her free, he is entitled to keep her chained in his basement and to keep using her for his personal gratification.

      Un.F*cking.Believeable.

    • oldgeezer
      December 6, 2014, 4:42 pm

      The reality of the middle east is that the videos of journalists being beheaded predominates because we don’t see the videos of entire families or children being torn apart by Israeli bombs or automatic weapons. Some murders make the news but only a tiny fraction and then primarily in text and not vivid colour.

      The reality of the middle east is that Israel and the OPT is one of the most dangerous areas in which a journalist can operate due primarily to the Israeli propensity to target and kill them.

      The reality of the middle east is that hopefully any future Palestine will not be as disrepectful of life and laws as the current state of Israel which like, ISIS, is waging war on civilians in order to gain territory for a supremacist group of people.

    • Horizontal
      December 6, 2014, 7:44 pm

      Nothing in your post absolves Israel from its obligations under international law. Your assumptions as to who BDS appeals to may exist in your head, but that’s about it. And who knows, maybe left to their own devices, the Palestinians will come up with something entirely new on their own. You don’t seem to want to grant them the possibility.

      And I’d call cutting off the economic tentacles of the Zionist State the work of realists; not idealists.

    • Mooser
      December 6, 2014, 11:12 pm

      “I have done no research on the efficacy of BDS.”

      That’s very democratic of you, Yonah. There’s no reason why you should treat BDS any differently than any other issue. I commend you.

      • Giles
        December 8, 2014, 6:44 pm

        “I have done no research on the efficacy of BDS.”

        That’s very democratic of you, Yonah. There’s no reason why you should treat BDS any differently than any other issue.

        Nice one.

    • Mooser
      December 6, 2014, 11:17 pm

      ” It need not appeal to the reality of the region.”

      That Zionists (Ahem, cough) always win, and get what they want, and have no need for equality or accountability, or security, because Zionism can prevail by force of arms and will? Is that the “reality of the region”?

      Your confidence in our dominance does you credit, Yonah. Persecution doesn’t keep you down. You’re ready to take on the world and force our reality down their throats.

      • Horizontal
        December 7, 2014, 2:14 am

        Yonah’s funny. Walks into a house of mirrors and leaves thinking he’s had a conversation.

        I’m curious: What was the role model for Israel? Shows how good intentions can so easily go off course.

    • Annie Robbins
      December 7, 2014, 3:30 am

      If one removes Israel versus Palestine from its context, most people see Israel suppressing Palestinians. If one views it in the context: realists will ask: What will this new Palestine look like? Like the MB in Egypt? Like Assad, ISIL, like Iraq? –

      interesting you should mention that yonah. i’ve read this same sentiment numerous times by commenters on the web lately. and it occurs to me that it’s such a great line of argument (along with the tiny israel in the sea of madness edge of the volcano type argument israel has been using for years) that it might not be such a bad idea for israel to invest in all that madness around it. i mean, why not. if isis is beheading people in the neighborhood it makes what israel is doing no big deal. as long as everything else it worse, israel can keep on being a criminal.

      and it reminded me of all those neocons pushing us to war with iraq. so much effort and lies and nigerian yellowcake and wmd and on and on and on….and then remember what they did once we invaded??? that’s right, as the world was distracted they placed 100,000’s of kahanists types in the west bank.

      so now, not that they are going for the final death knell over the al aqsa, really diving in for jerusalem, wouldn’t it make sense for a really bad looming threat to be happening next door? so why not rejoice yonah? i mean what could be better for the zionist agenda than the very terrorists we are supplying with weapons to be chopping off peoples heads.

      anyway, your concern is touching. but as a realist, i want to stop israel’s crimes against humanity. there will always be other problems in the world, but none of them have been ongoing for 70 years. this is how israel sustains itself, buy using distractions elsewhere to keep perpetuating their crimes. but it will catch up with them one day. your support for their criminality is touching, but unconvincing.

    • ziusudra
      December 7, 2014, 6:53 am

      Greetings jonah fredman,
      ….ME is a mess….
      ….What will the new Palestine look like?…..

      Gaza is encarcerated, basta! The WB Falesteeni have their farm products destroyed, water supplies sactioned off, resources not allowed in, etc. That alone is enough to show who causes this mess.
      The territory Palestine is within the confines of Zionistic Israel. Palestine can only have a meaning if a part of it governs itself. The Falesteeni don’t govern anything that could be called Palestine.
      Let’s not break our heads philosophically of how the Falesteeni would get on w/o Zionistan’s
      crimes.
      ziusudra
      Leave a few sheckles on the way out for all the olive trees & other resources that have been stolen or destroyed since 67
      Bubala, there’s a treaty that Israelis, Falesteeni & Jordanians each get a third of the water & minerals of the Dead Sea. Where’s their share?

    • amigo
      December 7, 2014, 7:19 am

      “I have done no research on the efficacy of BDS.” yonah.

      Yonah , that is a superfluous admission.

      A short browse through you archives will show you do little research on any of the subjects you broach.

      Might I suggest a new moniker for you.

      “Minimum researcher”.

      Not to worry, most here will know it is you.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 7:28 am

        He’s a very sensitive guy, amigo…

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 12:53 pm

        “He’s a very sensitive guy, amigo…”

        And he combines Latin with Yiddish words to make Yatin! He’s opened a world of linguistic possibilities…

    • kma
      December 8, 2014, 1:18 pm

      The “mess” in the middle east is pretty simple: hundreds of millions of people want justice and democracy and they are simmering under the brutality of a few powerful US-loving-ass-kissers. It can’t hold forever, and started to boil over in 2011.
      Israel and Palestine cannot be removed from this context. It is the same problem. Self-proclaimed “realists” may think it can last forever if we keep feeding our weapons in, but really? How long?

  18. Kevin R. Vixie
    December 6, 2014, 4:03 pm

    It seems to me that the goals of the BDS are clealy good aIt is clear that the goals of the BDS movement are good ones, and that the nonviolence supports those goals in very important ways. But recently I have been thinking more about the phenomena of unintended consequences. What I wonder is if, with a nuclear armed state filled with radicals who think that everyone everywhere wants to wipe them out, it is a good idea to back them into a corner too quickly. Seems very dangerous.

    Of course, real change on a large scale is always *very* difficult and it sometimes ends up making things pretty bad for many people.

    But I reject the “to make an omelet, you have to break eggs” argument that some revolutionaries use to justify bad things. In fact, I think that “the end justifies the means” is probably the most evil principle of action out there.

    That is actually why I like the BDS movement — it is based on the right principles.

    I do think that for this to end well, there will have to be some movement somewhere that can harness the desire of the average Israeli and average Palestinian to simply live in peace. How to go around, how to defuse the power of the demagogues, the fascists, the sociopaths on both sides — that will be the real challenge. Because in the end, everybody will have to live together.

    Seems like this movement is the only movement with a plausible chance of causing things to shift in the right direction. Yet, the potential danger in pushing this too quickly makes me wonder about whether adjustments could be made to slow things down in a way that diffuses the extremists inside Israel and Palestine. Reducing the temperature of the situation so that the worst folk cannot tap that energy source seems to me to be a critical component of a positive, sustainable long term outcome.

    Nevertheless, because it is based on the right principles, I support the BDS movement.

  19. CitizenC
    December 6, 2014, 4:11 pm

    Sorry to interrupt the counterattack…

    I was at the Columbia event also, and would like to add a few comments. As Phil noted Mahmood Mamdani disagreed that the S Africa moment had arrived. He cited the defeat of South African military forces in Angola, supported by Cuba, as a key turning point. This forced South Africa out of Angola and led to the independence of Namibia, which S Africa had occupied; SA does not share a border with Angola. No such turning point has occured in Israel’s regional relations. That is one major reason why Israel has not agreed to live with the Palestinians, because it can keep the whole region down; the other is continued US support of course.

    I asked a question about the Israel lobby. I said that there was no comparable “Afrikaner lobby”, and how would BDS actually affect US policy? Or was the IL not a problem, as some thought.

    Barghouti’s answer was evasive. He said that corporations were a powerful lobby for South Africa. No they were not; they were a lobby for their own investments, defending their economic value to South Africans, signing on to token measures like the Sullivan principles, devised by a black clergyman on GM’s board, etc. They did not flood US culture with propaganda extolling apartheid, and Afrikaner “self-determination”, they did not vilify and terrorize critics as “anti-Afrikaner”. Did they lobby the US executive and Congress in support of the S African govt, beyond implicity supporting it by defending their investments? That is not at all clear; Bartghouti was talking off the top of his head.

    After this initial smokescreen, he then tacked and jibed. “Neither Chomsky nor Mearsheimer/Walt are correct. Sometimes the tail wags the dog, sometimes the dog wags the tail. But they are part of the same animal.” At another point he said that “supporting Israel benefits the 1%”, a vaguely Marxist political economy argument. These remarks contradicted his response to the question before mine, in which he said that much of the investment in Israel was “ideologically driven”, meaning Zionist, and I think he is correct. There are powerful Zionist factions on Wall St and elsewhere driving support for economic ties with Israel, apart from economic opportunity.

    So on the fundamental question of how BDS is supposed to affect US policy, Barghouti said basically nothing. Still, it is not mainly his place, as a non-US citizen, to analyze and confront the forces at work here. That is the task of US citizens, who presumably know the territory. Barghouti is doing what he can, developing BDS, which is limited but constructive.

    In my view much of BDS seems to carry on as if the overwhelming and crucial US official (and semi-official Jewish) “support for Israel” is taking place on a different planet, while the “movement” concerns itself with Soda Stream and Ahava and other “anti-occupation” activity. Focusing on Israel at least names the culprit and implicitly raises questions about US policy. The academic boycotts sanction Israel and also represent elite opinion.
    Rashid Khalidi discussed this later, saying that BDS affects public opinion. He said the political level will “remain impervious” to change, a phrase he repeated for different establishments, the straight media will “remain impervious,” X will “remain impervious, Y will “remain impervious”, strongly emphasizing “impervious”. I felt that RK’s remarks, and my question, were over the heads of the audience (and panelists).

    There’s no question that BDS has grown, and I do not deprecate the efforts and the courage of those who have stood up under the pressure. But as Barghouti himself said, BDS’s biggest asset is Israel itself, its endless appetite for death and destruction. It would be curious if some form of resistance did not grow. A minor literary genre has emerged, the “why I now support BDS” article.

    But so far Israel “remains impervious” because US support, and above all organized Jewish support, “remains impervious”. BDS indirectly challenges that support, but indirection isn’t adequate. Alex Kane had a piece recently about “playing the Washington game”

    link to middleeasteye.net

    That game is totally rigged, but occasional bets can be won on the side; the US-Israel strategic partnership act passed without exempting Israelis from visa requirements. BDS alone will not unrig the game. What would in my view is partly different activism, but partly analysis, of Zionism, historically, and in the US, and its cost to the country, a whole culture shift in perception, to overcome the deficit of Chomsky and the Jewish left, over the last 50 years.

    • Vacy
      December 6, 2014, 6:56 pm

      Please elaborate on ‘different activism’.

    • mcohen.
      December 10, 2014, 12:47 am

      citizen says

      “Barghouti’s answer was evasive.”

      that probably sums it up….cannot win the war

      .in the past 20 years millions of arabs,afghani,s and,syrians have died and the numbers are not letting up….more troops are heading to the middle east as we speak from the same countries that fought in Iraq.

      link to independent.co.uk

      link to independent.co.uk

      link to dailymail.co.uk

      while the pro Palestinian cause keeps the left happy (courtesy of sites like mondi and bds happy moments inc) Israel is quietly delivering humanitarian aid to Syrians and supporting those suffering from the ravages of the ongoing civil war

      • Annie Robbins
        December 10, 2014, 3:37 am

        Israel is quietly delivering humanitarian aid to Syrians

        lol, please mcohen do you think we are that daft. israel and the US are funding nursa. link to moonofalabama.org

        there is a history to this; a long term goal to create chaos in the ME to distract and agitate israel’s surroundings so they may continue their theft and ethnic cleansing. for sure israel and the US are engaged in the slaughtering of muslims and perpetuation of this conquering of the ME for their own self interest. so please spare us this mind f*k narrative of “quietly delivering humanitarian aid “. it’s not quiet and whatever “humanitarian aid” they may be offering comes at a very steep price in the blood and lives of many others aimed at regime change with a government it was previously pretending to engage in negotiations over the golan heights.

        ps cat’s already out of the bag link to mondoweiss.net

      • mcohen.
        December 10, 2014, 5:00 am

        annie says

        do you think we are that daft

        daft……..is that an american word …..or is it british

        are you an annie robbins version 2 or 3

        are the moderators sub contracted out these days

        talking heads with nothing to say

        lol

      • Annie Robbins
        December 10, 2014, 5:19 am

        ..is that an american word …..or is it british

        we share the english language. while there are some words and phrases that are distinctly american and not used in the united kingdom link to en.wikipedia.org the vast majority of words in the english language are also used here in america. “daft” is one of them. unlike israel, here in america we didn’t invent most of the words we use today.

        are you an annie robbins version 2 or 3

        that’s for me to know and you to find out. ;) and there are many many more versions you’ve yet to encounter, no doubt. .

        are the moderators sub contracted out these days

        one would have to have a contract to have it subcontracted out. as far as i know mondoweiss doesn’t offer contracts for moderation.

        talking heads with nothing to say

        if you think so, i can arrange it for you to say nothing, although you may have something to say.

        lol

        one who laughs last laughs….

      • Citizen
        December 10, 2014, 8:42 am

        Israel has a history of bombing strategic sites in Syria; there were at least three in 2013 and reports of another strike a few days ago: link to thedailybeast.com

      • just
        December 10, 2014, 2:25 pm

        Another great series of responses, Annie!

  20. CitizenC
    December 6, 2014, 4:53 pm

    Straws in the Wind Dept.

    Netanyahu may have misjudged and the coming elections may not give him the support needed to form a govt Or so said a recent piece in Haaretz.

    Iran is of more use to the US against ISIS than Israel a piece in the NYT (or somewhere) said.

    Perhaps the catastrophe of neocon-led radicalism will finally produce an elite reaction. Certainly some elements, like the national security alumni at the Summit on the Special Relationship in DC in March, are on that track, though it’s not clear they have any purchase inside the fringe.

    History is full of curves. It will take many expert curves and fastballs to strike out US Zionism.

    • mcohen.
      December 10, 2014, 7:10 am

      a poem i wrote …..

      a former shadow of yourself
      came to visit across the shelf
      book in hand it read out aloud
      the story of your life once haughty and proud
      humbled by life,s pulling weight
      the road has become harder to navigate
      yet here you sit older with age
      singing like a canary in a cage

  21. Felipe
    December 6, 2014, 5:02 pm

    Great post Phil!!!

    I have watched Mr. Barghouti interviewed before and he comes across as an intelligent and articulate speaker. He is an excellent representative of the Palestinian cause and the BDS movement. I am very happy he had a chance to speak at Columbia U.

    By the way, did you or any other journalist present that night film this event.? If so, would you be so kind as to provide a link to the video?

    • DoubleStandard
      December 7, 2014, 6:05 am

      He’s a trained propagandist who repeats tbe same thing over and over again. Watch some of his debates – – he’s barely able to respond to questions that fall outside his rehearsed scripts.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 6:55 am

        trained by whom? do tell! how exciting. presuming you don’t mean trained by years of experience. do you think he can afford luntz? this is so intriguing. i just loooove gossip.

        comeon spit it out (SOURCE) you little lion cub of roaring zion. give it your best shot.

      • amigo
        December 8, 2014, 7:08 am

        “he’s barely able to respond to questions that fall outside his rehearsed scripts.”DS ,BS.

        Instead of posting generic unsubstantiated gobshite , try providing links to credible sources to back it up.

        Otherwise you are the repetitious propagandist but that is par for the course for you and your ilk.

      • kma
        December 8, 2014, 1:29 pm

        a “trained propagandist”? okay, that’s a little better mudslinging than calling him “uncompromising”, but you need more training.
        try the one about his mother wearing army boots…

  22. hophmi
    December 6, 2014, 8:02 pm

    Sure. I assume you’ll also be calling for the BDS movement to return the money it has received from Arab dictatorships. The BDS movement is fully transparent about its finances, right?

    • DoubleStandard
      December 7, 2014, 6:06 am

      A lot of the funding used for Palestinian activism in the West comes from arab governments or designated terrorist organizations.

      Follow the money trail.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 6:41 am

        perhaps you could be so gracious as to lead us down that trail w/some source links. ;)

        and while you’re at it, what pray tell is bds funding? some videos? big budgets for sjp groups all over the US (wouldn’t that be cool!). paying student advocates to fly to palestine? anything at all like hiring professional pr teams like the many zionist factions? can they afford to call up university admins and threaten cutting of millions on funds. i mean really double standard, why hold back? by all means show us evidence and documentation of this alleged funding by terror orgs. we’re all ears. but last i heard the holyland5 were convicted, for the first time in american history and an affront to our constitution, by secret israeli witness who could not be cross examined. so by all means present you evidence of funding by “terrorist organizations”.

        msm would be nice. memri&ilk not so much.

      • DoubleStandard
        December 7, 2014, 7:01 am

        The romance you have with Islam is kind of funny Annie. You’re a West Coast leftist — most likely an atheist — who presumably believes she shouldn’t be treated like a 6 year old.

        If the people with whom you regularly associate had their way, your throat would be one of the first to be slit.

        I’ll post links in a bit — stay tuned. Financials aside, just look at some of the speakers that are associated with these organizations. A lot of whom don’t even play the colonialism argument, and just say that they want Allah to wipe Israel out.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 7:28 am

        The romance you have with Islam

        i sooo wish! i swear i have tried my best to believe in god (once i even prayed to jesus because someone said if i did i would have some kind of revelation and he would answer me back. he didn’t)

        is kind of funny Annie.

        well, how scrumptious i have tickled your funnybone. keep laughing…

        who presumably believes she shouldn’t be treated like a 6 year old.

        you’ve got it wrong, i would like nothing better than to sit on my daddy’s lap again and snuggle in my mama’s love. 6 was a wonderful age. my whole childhood, i so wish i could go back there. but nothing here resembles the glory of being 6 again. i do believe i have earned it tho.

        If the people with whom you regularly associate had their way, your throat would be one of the first to be slit.

        lol, that’s quite an imagination you’ve got. pray tell, why haven’t they done it? it’s not like i’m hiding. ;) you’re too funny. triple yawn, but alas boring.

        I’ll post links in a bit — stay tuned.

        i will. and good luck finding a moderator to clear any of your allegations between now and then. mainstream please. asap douchebag.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 7:35 am

        DS~ your comments are repugnant and have no credibility, and they are getting more extreme, all the time.

      • DoubleStandard
        December 7, 2014, 9:23 am

        link to youtube.com
        link to truthrevolt.org
        link to investigativeproject.org
        link to israelnationalnews.com

        If you guys can cite Electronic Intifada as evidence, I can certainly cite some right-of-center and Israeli sites.

        I’m too lazy to crawl around to produce more, but there is no doubt that the entire Palestine-Solidarity movement is inextricably connected to ……

        […..]

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 1:05 pm

        Annie, I’m very concerned about you! You will remember to wear your Kevar turtleneck sweater on cold wet afternoons, won’t you?

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 2:08 pm

        I’m too lazy to crawl around to produce more

        so i guess that would be a resounding “NO” since you have provided not one mainstream source doc to back up “follow the money trail” allegations.

        your list of “proof” is a joke. one alleged ISM supported suicide bombings. one tried to paint american muslims for palestine AMP, citing an event w/Mustafa al Barghouthi and AMP founder distinguished scholar Hatem Bazian, a senior lecturer at the University of California, Berkeley, as some kind of hate group claiming they funded hamas.

        one claimed people at a CAIR event with Remi Kenazi and Tariq Abu Khdeir had at one time funded the holy land foundation charity which the feds claimed HL5 supported hamas although after a hung jury the prosecutor’s only witness was an anonymous israeli who could not be questioned by the defense for the first time in american history making a travesty of our justice system! HL5 donations all went thru the same charities in gaza as USaid did!

        the other is a recording of a speech by an iman in oakland from a group i have never heard of “As-Sabiqun” controversial as he and his group may be, apparently the federal government doesn’t agree with you that he is a terrorist or the group would be shut down.

        there is no money trail. you have no money trail other than claiming people were associated with people who raised money for holy land foundation to feed and cloth children and mothers in gaza! this is your “proof” sjp is funded by terrorists? even with your stupid islamophobic links you can’t prove that. and then you use this “proof” to post another 5 paragraph diatribe of hate speech, accusations and lies? (they didn’t make the grade). i think you are confusing mondoweiss with camera or swu or something. there’s a limit to how much of this crap we will publish. i left your links so people could witness the kind of “proof” you proffer to back up your pathetic inflammatory claims. you have nothing to substantiate your claim spj or palestinian activism on american campuses, or bds (hops claim)is funded by terrorist orgs. you:

        A lot of the funding used for Palestinian activism in the West comes from arab governments or designated terrorist organizations.

        Follow the money trail.

        – See more at: link to mondoweiss.net

        nothing.

      • hophmi
        December 7, 2014, 2:33 pm

        Why is it necessary to prove anything? Surely you’re transparent enough to disclose your donors. I mean aren’t you transparent enough?

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 3:44 pm

        Why is it necessary to prove anything?

        why is it necessary to back up a claim bds is supported by terrorist organizations? because it’s inflammatory accusation that’s why.

        Surely you’re transparent enough to disclose your donors

        my donors? nobody funds me, i work for free as i imagine many activists working to free palestine work for free. the bds movement has never given me any money but i did donate last friday to the first ever bds fundraiser. if that’s what you mean by transparency. i don’t even know if bds has or has not disclosed their funding or if they are required to by law. but surely if someone accused you of being funded by a terrorist organization would you ask them to prove it? i’m not sure you’d be obligated to respond in anyway, but you’d probably ask wouldn’t you?

        and as an aside, if someone claimed the hillel at UCLA was funded by JDL (US designated a terrorist org) i would ask the same thing, if there was a mainstream source for this claim or any evidence.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 2:24 pm

        Thanks for sparing us, Annie.

        ;-}

        I often wonder about all the tax- exempt monies that are raised IN the USA for the IOF by loyal “Americans”?

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 2:24 pm

        “The romance you have with Islam…”

        Oy Gevalt, such a vision I have, of Annie doing the Dance of the Seven Veils for a Thousand and One Arabian nights! A regular Scheherazaftik!
        Now I see myself fluttering like a wounded bird in her boudoir in thrall to a pair of kohl-rimmed eyes, glittering with belladonna.
        “Spare me” I said, on the edge of moral and physical syncope (I should have sat on the davenport) “I’m just a Jewish boy who wandered into harem’s way!”

      • Walid
        December 7, 2014, 2:56 pm

        “The romance you have with Islam is kind of funny Annie. ( DoubleStandard)

        A very ignorant comment.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 3:30 pm

        walid, i am probably one of the least informed people about religions, other than zen because i used to practice it. i have not even read the bible much less the quran. i tend to judge a religion by the people i know who practice it. and since i only hang out (for the most part) w/cool wonderful people i would have to give each of the abrahamic religions the same rating (if i was going to rate them). but clearly i am not qualified to rate a religion since i don’t really understand any of them. but to claim a non religious person is in love with, or has a romantic notion of a religion, is very ignorant.

        an aside, my only personal experiences interacting with muslims i don’t know has been very positive because they’ve been so gracious to me personally. one time i called a friend from gaza on eid. she was a new student in the US. she was crying because she was lonely and didn’t think there were any mosques in her area. so i got off the phone and called several near her and left messages to make arrangements for someone to find her and pick her up to join them. of course they called me back and were all very helpful. just very normal nice people. and i’ve traveled to the region 3 times now and never been treated rudely once by a muslim person ever that i can recall. so why should i judge them any more than i would judge christianity when our christian soldiers have massacred iraqis?

        it’s all so sorted this kind of racism that seeks to demonize a whole people of faith to justify the ethnic cleansing, ongoing persecution, human rights violations and war crimes against of palestinians.

        ignorant indeed and that’s really the least of it – a kind way of putting it actually.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 3:15 pm

        “The romance you have with Islam is kind of funny Annie…”

        Maybe DS is just giving Annie the same rap he uses on the settlement girls when he’s on patrol with the Purity Squad van.
        You know that rap; it starts out questioning “the romance you have with Islam” and ends up, ‘so why don’t you go out with a nice boy like my friend Uri here. Come out of the van, Uri…no, wait, we’ll just put her in it so you two can get acquainted…’
        Yup, there’s nothin’ Zionists don’t know about romance.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 5:00 pm

        “Why is it necessary to prove anything?”

        Oh, I don’t know. Might it be because if there wasn’t some standard of proof, all the old blood libels would again emerge as ‘true’? Not that you Zionist guys worry about that, being such macher men.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 10:56 am

        “Why is it necessary to prove anything? Surely you’re transparent enough to disclose your donors. I mean aren’t you transparent enough?”

        Hophmi, you sound like an anti-Semite interrogating a Matzoh-baker around Passover. “Why is it necessary to prove anything?” Disclose your donors!

      • RoHa
        December 8, 2014, 6:52 pm

        “my only personal experiences interacting with muslims i don’t know has been very positive because they’ve been so gracious to me personally. ”

        I have known a lot of Muslims from many different parts of the world. Malays and Indonesians, Turks and Saudis, Lebanese and Bosnians, Zanzibaris and Palestinians. They were all depressingly ordinary. Not a hint of romantic Oriental Mystery. Very boring lot.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 9, 2014, 2:20 am

        depressingly ordinary? hmm. maybe you traveled in the wrong circles.

      • Mooser
        December 9, 2014, 11:58 am

        “They were all depressingly ordinary. Not a hint of romantic Oriental Mystery. Very boring lot.”

        You’ve never met the ding-dong Daddy from Dumas? You ought to see him strut his stuff.
        And of course, there’s the Sheik of Araby, in a bathing suit. Couldn’t call those two “boring” or “ordinary”.

      • Walid
        December 9, 2014, 12:08 pm

        “Very boring lot.”

        I’ll venture a guess that it must have been an international teachers’convention. If you wanted to see sparks fly, you should have gone to a nurses one.

  23. Horizontal
    December 7, 2014, 2:08 am

    What I find interesting is that for a movement that is deemed ineffectual. can’t work, and only appeals to idealists, it has still managed to draw all three of the naysayers here at MW to try and convince us of those questionable facts.

    Methinks their numerous postings reveal that it is indeed a movement worthy of countering, and unlike the vapid mutterings of our State Department, taking money out of Israeli pockets is a specter that is as truly frightening as it is effective.

    More of the same, please.

    • gamal
      December 7, 2014, 7:34 pm

      replying to a snippet of Annie’s reply to some Zionist dude in the thread above,

      “a speech by an iman” yes the Imam Amir Abdel Malik Ali nee Derek Gilliam, former NOI black nationalist, he is a very angry man, but i guess more a product of America than anything else and apparently acting within US law, as he is still a free man, Imam does mean Alim and even Alim is little guarantee of religious literacy, I was an Imam once and I know bugger all, but do not subscribe to weird American style racial and religious theories, a Sunni Imam merely needs to know the difference between bowing down and bending over, a Shia “Imam” is the elect of God, ulul-Azm and all that.

  24. amigo
    December 7, 2014, 6:41 am

    Bennett,s answer to BDS and those seeking a just and lasting resolution.

    “Bennett was unabashed in his disdain both for the two-state solution as well as the entire “peace industry,” as he called it, including the forum which he was addressing. “Stop obsessing about the thing we can’t solve,” he exhorted his audience, suggesting that the funds devoted to “the whole industry of peacemaking that goes from one conference to another” would be better invested in improving the infrastructure in Judea and Samaria for the “Jews and Arabs who live there and aren’t going anywhere.”

    link to haaretz.com

    “Jews and Arabs who live there and aren’t going anywhere.” Bennet.

    Some are , (and we all know which group ) if you have your way .I do however appreciate your blatant honesty.It is far more valuable than the two faced hypocracy of Livni /hertzog and co.

    • just
      December 7, 2014, 7:25 am

      From the Haaretz article:

      “Bennett: Israel should be ‘Jewish lighthouse in Muslim storm’

      Speaking at Saban Forum in Washington, Israel’s economy minister suggests funding for ‘peace industry’ should be cut”

      It’s a bit early to start hurling, but the headline made me do it. It’s abundantly clear that he wants no “peace”. Messianic complex @ its very worst.

      link to haaretz.com

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 7:39 am

        Here’s a picture that may make people feel unwell:

        “Bennett at Saban Forum: Anyone who boycotts Israel is an anti-Semite”

        link to twitter.com

      • Walid
        December 7, 2014, 8:46 am

        Here’s a picture that may make people feel unwell: “Bennett at Saban Forum… :

        Talhami missing from Saban’s groupie photo.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 9:15 am

        There’s more than a few missing, but I get your point.

        (Who is the woman with the name tag on, next to Indyk? I can’t place her. Note that none of the dudes have name tags… they are so well- known in that circle~ celebrities of injustice.)

  25. NickJOCW
    December 7, 2014, 7:38 am

    What I have long wanted to know is what exactly will happen to the vast number of illegal settlers? I know the BDS movement wants Israel ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967… but has anyone considered where the settlers are to go and by what means persuaded to vacate their illegal settlements? The greater the success of BDS the larger this issue looms. I have long suspected that many Jews subscribe to a vaguely defined notion that the Palestinians will be happy to share their land with hundreds of thousands of residual colonists. But Barghouti seems pretty clear about the right of return and that has to be return to their own lands and homes. I don’t suppose anyone wants to see them treated as the Palestinians were/are treated and driven forth at gun point. It’s one thing for Jordan and other Arab states to accept, however reluctantly, waves of dispossessed Palestinians, but Jewish settlers? Unless this issue is faced I see one ghastly humanitarian disaster simply replaced by another.

    • just
      December 7, 2014, 7:49 am

      For starters, many settlers have dual citizenship– they can go home.

      Anyway, Israel put them there, let Israel find a legal home for them.

      • NickJOCW
        December 7, 2014, 8:23 am

        No, no. You are washing your hands of it all. If the BDS succeeds then it must have an answer for this, a coherent pre-planned workable answer. Obviously worked out with Israel but a humanitarian responsibility of everyone. What we don’t want, surely, is to see weeping and wailing settler women holding up their babies to CNN cameras, tears streaming down their distorted faced, Even if we accept that it is Israel’s problem we must be assured Israel takes it seriously and doesn’t just let the proverbial hit the fan.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 9:04 am

        Since Israel, the US (and others) allowed them to illegally “settle” there, and are the major obstacles to peace and justice for the Palestinians, then it is up to those countries to accommodate them…
        The BDS movement is not responsible for the “settler” solution when it succeeds. I just cannot see your point.

        Palestinians never stole their own land, nor occupied anyone.

      • NickJOCW
        December 7, 2014, 9:42 am

        Just, Of course I accept the BDS is not responsible for settlers, BDS is a tool, an evolved form of ostracisation. At least, from your reply, I understand that you at any rate don’t expect the settlers to be able to wangle some sort of compromise. The US certainly appears to, why else do they keep rabbiting on about negotiations when the only thing I see needs negotiation is a time frame for evacuation.

      • Felipe
        December 7, 2014, 10:29 am

        Well, the settlers are originally from Israel ( and from Europe, Russia and the US) so Israel is perfectly capable of granting them new homes inside Israel proper. After all, Israel does get billions of dollars worth of financial aid from the USA, does it not? They ought to use some of those funds to find these people decent homes, away from the Palestinians, whom they loath so much, and close to their fellow Jews. Of course, the real problem to my mind is not the fact they won’t be able to re-locate these people. It’s the fact they have been so thoroughly indoctrinated to believe “Judea and Samaria” is theirs by divine right and therefore “abandoning” the place is tantamount to religious heresy. The Israeli state would indeed have to confront the nationalist-religious Frankenstein they created and have so lovingly nurtured for so many decades.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 3:20 pm

        ‘If the BDS succeeds then Israel and the Zionists must have an answer for this, a coherent pre-planned workable answer’

        Fixed it.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 3:25 pm

        “Just, Of course I accept the BDS is not responsible for settlers, BDS is a tool, an evolved form of ostracisation”

        So putting on an economic squeeze which might result in real economic hardship, is more “evolved” than social “ostracisation” ? Okay.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 3:39 pm

        if we accept that it is Israel’s problem we must be assured Israel takes it seriously and doesn’t just let the proverbial hit the fan.”

        Nick, I’m being a pain in the ass because I dislike Zionism so much, but you’ve got a point.
        I’m not sure that it is the BDS folk’s responsibility, but somebody besides Israel is going to have to come up with a plan for the settlers.
        Israel will simply, if allowed, keep using them as cats-paws, tethered goats, and sacrificial lambs. Israel will not do anything the least bit responsible, the lives of those poor schlimazels obviously don’t count for a whole lot in Israel. They will use them as human shields, or worse, human sacrifices. They will, to keep them from going even nuttier, need to know that somebody might give a shit about them when they no longer serve Israel’s purpose.

    • eljay
      December 7, 2014, 8:21 am

      >> NickJOCW: What I have long wanted to know is what exactly will happen to the vast number of illegal settlers?

      Good question.

      Although I don’t expect that refugees from Partition-borders Israel will ever get to return to their homes and lands, I do believe they should either:
      – be allowed to return to Israel (as Israeli citizens), be re-settled within Israel at its expense and be paid compensation for any shortfall; or
      – agree to settle outside of Israel and be paid compensation by Israel in lieu of return.

      Israeli colonists in New State (Palestine?) don’t have the same rights to New State as refugees from Partition-borders Israel have to Israel. IMO, they should be given two options:
      – agree to be relocated back to Israel, at Israel’s expense; or
      – remain in New State (as New State citizens), but be relocated to elsewhere within the country at New State’s expense, so that land stolen from the indigenous population of New State can be returned to the people from whom it was stolen.

    • kma
      December 8, 2014, 4:57 pm

      the NickJOCW logic is racist. The only reason he sees tragedy coming for settlers if Palestinians return is because the settlers wouldn’t live within 100 miles of a Palestinian!
      even if BDS had a position on what the settlers do with themselves (it does NOT need one!), it would be really unlikely that it would be assumed to require complete isolated segregation.
      Only the zionists make that assumption, and THAT is the root of the problem!

      • Annie Robbins
        December 8, 2014, 6:24 pm

        i’d be concerned if israel didn’t have a plan they might just let settlers run loose and with all their determination, weapons and ammo would create a massive bloodbath against an unarmed civilian population. of course i have not read the entire conversation but i think you might be jumping to conclusions about a long term valued commenter here.

  26. Susan A
    December 7, 2014, 9:26 am

    Israel has spent so much time filling up the West Bank that, from what I’ve been told, there’s still plenty of space in Israel; and that’s without displacing the Negev/Naqab Bedouin. We have to get to a stage where justice is to be done before we can think of that. How can we have everything pre-planned when we don’t yet know how things will pan out? Any ideas NickJOCW?

    • just
      December 7, 2014, 9:32 am

      Thanks for that, Susan.

      Let peace and justice happen first. It is certainly not the Palestinians fault that it hasn’t!!!

      Why should BDS be responsible and lay out another “roadmap”???

    • NickJOCW
      December 7, 2014, 9:55 am

      Susan, I simply hope the cycle stops and it seems to me more likely if some responsible group has considered the post occupation logistics. As for a solution, if it were my decision I would have Israel found a colony somewhere in South America or Africa and people it with its excess population. It’s what peoples have done since the beginning of time.

      • gamal
        December 7, 2014, 10:01 am

        “if it were my decision I would have Israel found a colony somewhere in South America or Africa and people it with its excess population” and why not Europe? dont you think founding colonies, fun as it sounds is the problem, you want yet another “colony”, and who is to say who is excess, are you an excess citizen, and do you have a spare room or two where you are?

      • oldgeezer
        December 7, 2014, 10:34 am

        Well South America or Africa likely would have also resulted in dispossessed people although the numbers may have been smaller.

        And I agree the cycle needs to end.

        But asking, or expecting, the victims to plan to look after the perpetrators, and that’s what the settlers are, is beyond the pale.

        The settlers are not innocents. The law that they are breaking is well over a half century old, well documented and frequently referenced. Their belief in Eretz Israel does not override the law.

      • NickJOCW
        December 7, 2014, 12:18 pm

        I am not suggesting the victims solve any problems but their own. The human race has to determine what’s best to be done in these circumstance. After the war, which I am old enough to remember, it was: What on Earth are we going to do with all these Jews? And an unfortunate decision was determined. Now the same question comes round again. Why can’t humanity try to find a workable solution this time, or are we going to face this millennial old problem until the seas run dry.

      • hophmi
        December 7, 2014, 12:59 pm

        This discussion confirms again that BDS proponents could not care less about the Jews currently living in Israel, and would gladly throw them into the sea of that would enable a Palestinian takeover.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 1:08 pm

        “After the war, which I am old enough to remember, it was: What on Earth are we going to do with all these Jews?”

        Okay, I suppose that’s one way to put it.

      • NickJOCW
        December 7, 2014, 3:19 pm

        Mooser, I assure you it’s not the way I put it. I was eight, too young to have opinions. But it’s the way I remember people talking. In the local Regal cinema I had seen the Pathé News pictures of the opening of the concentration camps when they were that week’s news, and the images are burned into my consciousness. What do you expect, 60 million had died including my 19 year old brother and an uncle burned so bad he had lost an eye and all his hair and his skin looked like red porridge. People had other things on their minds. They knew something had to be done and they hoped the new Israel would be a beacon, an example of the way a nation could rise from horrors and show mankind how to live in the post war world. More fool them.

      • Mooser
        December 7, 2014, 3:29 pm

        “Mooser, I assure you it’s not the way I put it.”

        Okay, this does it, I am buying a new computer. When the damn thing can’t even copy-n-paste a quote accurately, it’s time to junk it.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 7, 2014, 10:01 pm

        confirms again that BDS proponents could not care less about the Jews currently living in Israel, and would gladly throw them into the sea –

        hops. how so? susan said “, from what I’ve been told, there’s still plenty of space in Israel; and that’s without displacing the Negev/Naqab Bedouin. ”

        nick said ‘how about S.America or africa?’

        gamal said ‘why not set up a colony in europe’?

        nick referenced after ww2 and said “an unfortunate decision was determined.” (meaning one presumes the ethnic cleansing of another population). but no one said anything about forcing jews into the sea. and no one is advocating bombing them to smitherines or mowing the grass or anything as dismal as israeli policy towards palestinians. there’s nothing there remotely as disgusting or abusive as advocating the kind of policies the state you support carries out daily.

        i would not advocate it for anyone and certainly not advocate it “gladly”.

      • NickJOCW
        December 8, 2014, 9:09 am

        Annie and Mooser, I am sorry. I was precisely asking about what will happen to the settlers, and I meant that I hadn’t expressed myself in the tones of the quote entirely accurately pasted by Mooser, I was eight. It was adults I heard expressing themselves that way. My stepfather was Managing Editor of a major UK media group and on several government committees, our house was always filled with politicians, artists and media people and they discussed everything and talked their heads off. My main duty was mixing dry Martini so I listened a lot. What disturbs me, and it isn’t meliorated by some of the comments here. is the prospect of hundreds of thousands of settlers displaced from their illegal settlements and abandoned to their own devices. It doesn’t matter how horrid they are, it should be possible to anticipate such an eventuality and plan for it. Susan asked me what my solution would be and, perhaps foolishly, I suggested Israel found a daughter colony somewhere. This is what the Greeks and others did all over the place, the founding city remained the mother-state (μητρόπολις , mother+city, from which we get the word metropolis) and the bonds were as close as the word suggests.

      • just
        December 8, 2014, 9:37 am

        NickJOCW~ I hope that between the US/Israel daily phone calls and endless meetings that this issue has been discussed, but perhaps not. I think your worry is kind- hearted, because I don’t think that they plan for much, except failure at the table of peace and justice.

        The way I see it, this has been the plan & practice since the beginning~ to take all of the land, air, sea, and resources formerly belonging to the Palestinians and cleansing the land of the indigenous people and replacing them with their “own”.

        When BDS succeeds, and the world votes for justice, then the governments of Israel and the US will have to devote time formerly devoted to the “peace” charade to solving the conundrum that they created. I don’t think either government will hang them out to dry as you fear that they might.

        And, fwiw, the Palestinian people are kind- hearted, too.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 10:35 am

        “of the quote entirely accurately pasted by Mooser,”

        Nick, thanks, but I have to get a new computer no matter what. This one is still running XP. It’s time, and after x-mas, I’ll pick up Win 8 machine.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 10:40 am

        “This discussion confirms again that BDS proponents could not care less about the Jews currently living in Israel”

        Hophmi, this is a discussion about the fate of the illegal settlers living in Palestine, illegally.

        If Zionists are so concerned about these settlers, why didn’t Israel make strenuous efforts and offer concessions to acquire the land and annex it to Israel?

        Hophmi, Israel is the one who uses the settlers as tethered goats, attack dogs, and human shields.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 10:44 am

        OH, BTW, does anybody want to come up with a number for (sorry Nick) “all these Jews”? How many displaced Jews were there in Europe after WW2?
        Of course, there was a horrible decrease in the number of Jews in Europe, as the Nazis initiated and prosecuted a genocide among them and others.

        But at the end of WW2, what was the number of displaced Jews in Europe, the ones who had to be accommodated by dispossessing the Palestinians? After all, it was these displaced people who had the greatest need of being relocated.

      • NickJOCW
        December 8, 2014, 3:12 pm

        Just calls me kind- hearted, alas it is not so; my concern, I can see it coming, is the propaganda they will make from the evacuations, the media they have with which to promote it and the compromises, practical and emotional, they may ring from it. That’s why the UN or some other international body should address this issue with a pre-emptive plan.

      • RoHa
        December 8, 2014, 5:26 pm

        “after x-mas, I’ll pick up Win 8 machine.”

        I hope this is one of your jokes. Win7 is better.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 6:59 pm

        Nick, you are right, there’s no reason to think Israel will do anything but continue to exploit the settlers, and in even more atrocious ways, as conditions deteriorate. And that ought to be planned for, and it wouldn’t hurt for the settlers to be aware (when the time comes) that they don’t have to be left to the tender mercies of the Zionist project.

        Oh, and this is Wiki on the question:

        “At the time of Germany’s unconditional surrender on 7 May 1945 there were some 6.5 to 7 million displaced persons in the Allied occupation zones,[2] among them an estimated 55,000 [3] to 60,000[4] Jews. The vast majority of non-Jewish DPs were repatriated in a matter of months.[5] The number of Jewish DPs, however, subsequently grew many fold as Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe migrated westward. It is estimated that a total of more than 250,000 Jewish DPs resided in camps or communities in Germany, Austria, and Italy during the period from 1945 to 1952.[6]

        So let’s almost double that, and say there were 400,000 Jews and many of them would want, if possible, to make aliyah.

      • Mooser
        December 8, 2014, 11:11 pm

        ” Win7 is better.”

        So I have heard, but I’ll see what’s available after the Holidays.

    • amigo
      December 7, 2014, 12:44 pm

      “Even if we accept that it is Israel’s problem we must be assured Israel takes it seriously and doesn’t just let the proverbial hit the fan. “NickJowc

      Seems to me that is exactly what BDS is all about.forcing Israel to take responsibility for their prior actions and correcting them.

      If they do not want to see their women holding babies in front of CNN cameras,(I just bet they would love that), as they are removed from their stolen properties , then they have the answer.They created this problem , they refuse to stop enlarging the problem , so let the outcome be on their head and that includes the illegal squatters who are part and parcel of the War crime of settling occupied territory, suffer the consequences.Those squatters vote for their leaders because they do their bidding.

      No sympathy from me.

      • Mooser
        December 10, 2014, 6:05 pm

        “Seems to me that is exactly what BDS is all about.forcing Israel to take responsibility for their prior actions and correcting them.”

        Unfortunately, they may not be capable of taking responsibility or correcting. They can also further exploit, or use the settlers in some ways which will be horrible for all concerned. When the time comes, it might be a good thing if the settlers were offered choices from other sources.
        Whether it’s the BDS proponents responsibility to come up with those plans, I doubt. But somebody will have to.
        I can’t come to the conclusion the Israel would leave so many people in such a precarious position if they in any way cared about them, cared about anything but exploiting them. So if Israel offers them desperate choices, perhaps some less desperate plans should be on offer.

  27. just
    December 7, 2014, 10:06 am

    Whoo- wee!

    “WATCH: Ed Henry pushes Earnest on White House’s willingness to sanction Israel, not Iran

    Fox New’s Ed Henry grills White House Press Secretary Josh Earnest over reports that the White House is considering sanctions against Israel.

    ED HENRY, FOX NEWS: There were reports that the administration is considering sanctioning Israel over the settlements issue. I wonder if you could say true or false.

    JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE: Well, uh, I’ve been informed of some of these reports. What I can tell you is that I’m not going to talk about any sort of internal deliberations inside the administration and certainly not inside the White House. But I will say something that I have said many times before, which is that Israel is a close and strategic partner of the United States. And I don’t need to remind you of the strong and unshakable bonds that exist between the United States and Israel and the United States’ exceedingly strong commitment to the security of the nation of Israel.

    That being said, we have also been crystal clear about our view of settlement activity. That view has not changed. We believe that settlements are illegitimate, and we have deep concerns about highly contentious planning and construction activities that the Israeli government is pursuing in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. We believe that those kind of activities are counterproductive. We’ve made those views clear in public; we’ve made those views clear in private.

    HENRY: So very clearly you are not denying that sanctions are on the table against even an ally?”

    all of it here: link to haaretz.com

    • NickJOCW
      December 7, 2014, 10:24 am

      There’s a whole special vocabulary employed in these statements. Like the difference between a ‘military take over’ and a ‘coup’, as in Egypt, because a coup automatically restricts arms deals and take over doesn’t. Sanctions won’t effect Israel’s security. The issues sanctions would address are not even in Israel. BDS didn’t undermine South African security, the two are quite separate and Israelis know it. It worries them.

      • Felipe
        December 7, 2014, 10:39 am

        It’s almost funny, if it were not so painfully pathetic, to watch the semantic gymnastics Obama administration spokespeople engage in when it comes to defending Israel’s “sacrosanct” status while also criticizing its egregious and systematic international law and human rights violations. Just incredible how the world’s last superpower will bend over backwards to protect the right of this little, rogue state to impose misery upon the lives of those within its midst whom it considers less than fully human.

    • amigo
      December 7, 2014, 12:27 pm

      “And I don’t need to remind you of the strong and unshakable bonds that exist between the United States and Israel and the United States’ exceedingly strong commitment to the security of the nation of Israel.”

      Don,t suppose we could ask the Israelis to remind us of their exceedingly strong commitment to the security of the United State,s .

      Didn,t think so.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 12:36 pm

        The importance of being “Earnest”.

  28. Walid
    December 7, 2014, 1:05 pm

    Today, Israel’s air force gave another helping hand to ISIS by attacking Syrian positions close to Damascus airport and a village near the Lebanese border. Both areas hit are considered safe areas under the control of the Syrian Government. Israeli jets buzzed the sky over Lebanon all afternoon on their way to hit Syrian positions. Israel gave the usual reason for the attack saying it was intercepting Syrian shipments of arms to Hizbullah.

    • just
      December 7, 2014, 1:16 pm

      Uh- huh.

      Wonder if that’s why Netanyahu canceled his live satellite speech to Saban… and sent a recording instead.

      Wonder if it’s because he just loves being a war PM. It’ll help his ratings.

      Perhaps it also has something to do with Russia’s Deputy FM meeting with Nasrallah yesterday… or because the UN reported that the IOF was seen passing junk to the Syrian “rebels”… or because he really, really hates international law and has no respect for the sovereignty of other people/nations.

      • Walid
        December 7, 2014, 1:37 pm

        Of course, Just, Netanyahu is the friend of ISIS; remember his visit to a “rebel” field hoispital Israel had set up on the Golan? Birds of a feather.

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 1:43 pm

        I know, I was preaching to the choir!

      • Walid
        December 7, 2014, 1:57 pm

        Me too.

  29. just
    December 7, 2014, 2:54 pm

    “The American technology firm UST Global plans to set up a development center in Israel that will train thousands of software people in cyber security, according to a video that Economy Minister Naftali Bennett posted to his Facebook page on Saturday night.

    Bennett, who was in Washington to participate in the Saban Forum, met over the weekend with UST Global CEO Sajan Pillai, who appears in the video with him and confirms UST’s decision to launch its activity in Israel during the first quarter of next year.

    According to Bennett, UST plans to train residents of outlying towns as well as the ultra-Orthodox to produce cyber-security software in as little as 90 days, and to train some 10,000 people over time. UST will apparently be setting up its center in the south of the country. If UST indeed meets this goal, it will become one of the largest high-tech employers in Israel.

    “Today, most companies in the world view cyber defense as one of their top problems,” Pillai explains in the video. “Israel, as a country, has the best brand in intelligence and cyber defense, bar none.

    “Number two, 40 percent of all cyber defense companies today, innovative companies, are located in Israel,” Pillai continues. A third reason, he said, “is the ability of the government leadership to act quickly.””

    link to haaretz.com

    • seafoid
      December 7, 2014, 4:01 pm

      Best intelligence brand yada yada

      Why did they lose social media in August ?
      the biggest risks often come from areas that never gave any trouble before.

      Israel’s intelligence hubris will be part of the Zioboterdammerung

      • just
        December 7, 2014, 4:19 pm

        brilliant.

      • mcohen.
        December 9, 2014, 7:19 am

        seafoid says

        “intelligence hubris”

        imagine sitting in the departure lounge at damascus airport drinking tea with omar,joking about israeli IQ

        what will it be ……….peppermint or chamomile

  30. just
    December 8, 2014, 10:17 am

    Wait for the outcry:

    “A leading London synagogue has cancelled a talk by an Israeli academic who said earlier this year that the only way to deter terrorists is by raping their female relatives.

    Dr. Mordechai Kedar, of Bar-Ilan University, was due to speak at the Finchley United Synagogue on Monday night as part of a speaking tour in the United Kingdom organized by the local Zionist Federation, the Jewish Chronicle reported.

    Finchley congregants were notified that Kedar’s appearance had been cancelled, but no explanation was given.

    The federation had previously called off scheduled talks at three Jewish schools after complaints about his links with American anti-Islamist activist Pamela Geller, who was banned from Britain last year.

    Kedar told Israel Radio in July that “the only thing that can deter terrorists… is the knowledge that their sister or their mother will be raped.”

    Kedar and Bar Ilan University subsequently issued a statement that the rape statement was hyperbolic and Kedar was not recommending committing “such despicable acts”.

    In 2013 comments to Israeli news site Ynet, Kedar maintained that without “an end to immigration, we will soon be hearing the death throes of the [European] continent as we know it.”

    Reacting to the cancellation of Kedar’s talk in Finchley, federation chairman Paul Charney said that there had been “a concerted effort to smear the reputation” of Kedar, who was an “expert in the Islamic and Arabic worlds”.”

    link to haaretz.com

  31. just
    December 8, 2014, 10:53 am

    Here goes Congress:

    “Republicans in Congress have asked the Obama administration to explain a report that it is considering “sanctions” against Israel.

    “Recent reports suggest that your administration has held classified meetings over the past several weeks to discuss the possibility of imposing sanctions against Israel for its decision to construct homes in East Jerusalem,” said a letter sent Friday and signed by 48 members of the U.S. House of Representatives.

    “Israel is one of our strongest allies, and the mere notion that the administration would unilaterally impose sanctions against Israel is not only unwise, but is extremely worrisome,” the letter continued.

    Sen. Mark Kirk (R-Ill.) and Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.) issued similar statements.”

    link to haaretz.com

    Showing their allegiance again.

  32. shalom
    December 8, 2014, 11:28 am

    Ya know Philip winning the BDS/Delegitimization campaign against Israel is not going to happen for the same reason that Omar Barghouti couldn’t effectively answer the question about the right of Israel to self-determination. The UN voted in favor of partition. Israel accepted and the Arab League/Palestinian leadership said no. There was a war. Israel won. There was another war. Israel won. There was another war. Israel won. Do the Palestinian people have a right of self-determination? Yes. Do the have to negotiate it with Israel who agreed with the UN and went on to win three wars? Yes. Have they resisted the occupation and oppression that has accompanied it since 1967? Yes. Do Muslims have the right and the ability to pray at Al Aqsa and the Ibrahimi Mosque? Yes Did Jews have that right from 1948 to 1967? No. Do you really believe that Israel will give in to BDS any more than Palestinians have given into the occupation? Israel is actively expanding its markets in China and India and will keep going because its technology is in demand throughout the world. That is the functional answer and neither you nor I needed a lot of IQ points to make it.

    • Mooser
      December 8, 2014, 7:14 pm

      “That is the functional answer and neither you nor I needed a lot of IQ points to make it.”

      “Shalom”, you are right. That is indeed an answer which is greatly facilitated by a very low IQ.

    • Citizen
      December 8, 2014, 8:44 pm

      China, India–how well will the Holocaust card play at those tables? How many dual citizens will be enmeshed in those governments and their media propaganda machines? How many transactions and programs will those countries agree to that are not at true arms length? Trade agreements, business interconnections? Free foreign aid dollars, plus interest–from a Chinese or Indian bank? Good Luck, Israel.

    • talknic
      December 9, 2014, 4:29 am

      @ shalom
      ” Do the Palestinian people have a right of self-determination? Yes. “

      Correct.

      ” Do the(y) have to negotiate it with Israel who agreed with the UN and went on to win three wars? Yes.”

      Strange, Israel wasn’t required to negotiate with anyone to become an Independent State.

      Independence and self determination are by their very nature unilateral. Read the Montevideo Convention of the Rights and Duties of States link to cfr.org

      Israel was not required to recognize (and had not recognized) any other entity in order to gain recognition itself.

      Israel was recognized and admitted to the UN while it was at war in and over territories the Israeli Government claimed on the 22nd May 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

      Israel is obliged to adhere to the UN Charter in its entirety, International Law and relative conventions it has ratified. The Palestinians are under no legal obligation what so ever to negotiate or to forgo ANY of their legal rights in negotiations.

      Israel should be grateful the Palestinians have been willing to talk at all, let alone offer to accept only 22% of their rightful territories for peace with Israel.

      Israel’s reply was to demand more conditions, none of which had any legal basis, build more illegal facts on the ground.

      “Do Muslims have the right and the ability to pray at Al Aqsa and the Ibrahimi Mosque? Yes Did Jews have that right from 1948 to 1967? No. “

      Why would Jews want to pray at a mosque? Muslims pray at mosques, Jews pray in Synagogues.

      BTW Israeli emergency Law of 1848 (still current) forbade all Israeli citizens and residents (Jewish and non-Jewish) from entering the territory of a hostile entity. As the West Bank had been legally annexed to Jordan, it was hostile territory!

      It is also NORMAL for countries at war to either intern or expel possible 5th columnists and to freeze their assets and properties and forbid the entry of residents and citizens of enemy states until a peace treaty is signed. It is also NORMAL at the end of hostilities to release the interned, allow return of the expelled and unfreeze their assets and properties unless they have taken citizenship in a state other than that of return, whereby they lose refugee status.

      ” Do you really believe that Israel will give in to BDS any more than Palestinians have given into the occupation?”

      BDS asks that Israel adhere to its legal obligations. Israel is required by law to end the occupation, withdraw from all non-Israeli territories, take all its illegal settlers, repatriate them in Israel and pay for 66 years of reparations.

      Israel is actively expanding its markets in China and India and will keep going because its technology is in demand throughout the world. .”

      So what? Israel can do that AND get the f&*k out of non-Israeli territory. In fact, Israel probably needs to develop a heap more trade in order to pay the astronomical compensations due to the Palestinians and Israelis for 66 years of illegal facts on the ground.

      “That is the functional answer and neither you nor I needed a lot of IQ points to make it.”

      Anyone with a few IQ points can see it’s a stupid answer, perhaps indicating a lack of IQ points.

    • Mooser
      December 9, 2014, 9:04 pm

      “that Omar Barghouti couldn’t effectively answer the question about the right of Israel to self-determination.”

      Seemed like his answer served pretty well:

      “One thing I do know– not at my expense. If they are a nation and have a right of self-determination, not at my expense. That does not give them the right to expel us or to take our land–”

      The audience broke into applause, the first time that any speaker had been interrupted by applause in two hours. Barghouti swiftly moved on to other questions. The questioner walked out of the hall

      I’d call that effective.

      • Citizen
        December 9, 2014, 9:20 pm

        Yep, Mooser, your antlers are keen.
        Not even a serial killer has a blanket right of self-determination. Funny, one would think after the Nuremberg & Tokyo Trials & all the international law progeny subsequent, that nobody would be defending a blanket right of a tribe’s self-fulfillment, Aryan state or otherwise….

    • Mooser
      December 9, 2014, 9:09 pm

      “Israel is actively expanding its markets in China and India and will keep going because its technology is in demand throughout the world”

      And, of course, all the high-tech firms in Israel are more than happy to be used by right-wing Zionism in furthering their schemes, and will happily serve as economic human shields, sacrificing their own reputations. Because there’s no way they can compete in the world unless right-wing Zionists from Israel smooth the way for them? Yeah.

      • Citizen
        December 9, 2014, 9:22 pm

        I don’t think high tech firms care about anything but competitive hi-tech ego and profit, but you know that, you don’t don’t even need to watch The Big Bang show to know that, do you?

      • Mooser
        December 13, 2014, 11:42 am

        “you don’t don’t even need to watch The Big Bang show to know that, do you?”

        I watch “The Big Bang” so I can pattern myself, in speech and dress, after the character “Wallowitz”.

      • Citizen
        December 13, 2014, 12:09 pm

        @ Mooser

        OK, so we all know you are a moose who aspires to be this character: link to imdb.com

        BTW. this character’s play mother has actually died recently.

      • Mooser
        December 13, 2014, 6:36 pm

        “He is Jewish and allergic to most nuts”

  33. German Lefty
    December 8, 2014, 5:34 pm

    Flash mob against SodaStream at MediaMarkt and Saturn in Berlin:
    link to m.youtube.com

  34. Palikari
    December 9, 2014, 6:25 am

    BDS is very minoritary and will not succeed.

    • Mooser
      December 9, 2014, 5:46 pm

      “BDS is very minoritary and will not succeed.” (sic)

      Hmmmm, “minoritary”? “Minoritary”? Must be one of those Yatin words.

      • Citizen
        December 9, 2014, 9:24 pm

        Always good to know folks like Palikari Israeli Flag guy dismiss minority feebleness. Perks me right up a la Nuremberg rallies.

  35. mcohen.
    December 9, 2014, 7:23 am

    seafoid says

    “intelligence hubris”

    imagine sitting in the departure lounge at damascus airport drinking tea with omar,joking about israeli IQ

    what will it be ……….peppermint or chamomile

  36. AppleFolsom
    December 9, 2014, 4:20 pm

    Israel may not need an answer to BDS if they can gain VISA-free travel privileges to the US by our awful Congress.

    Note that as this ill-wind of legislation is winding its way to President Obama’s desk the State Department can not accept complaints regarding reciprocal treatment of American-Arabs in regard to entry to Israel:

    link to thehill.com

    • Citizen
      December 13, 2014, 12:11 pm

      Did Obama sign it yet? Or is he still measuring the impact on his post-POTUS book selling, speaching, career, and on who will fund his library?

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