Who can save Israel now?

Israel/Palestine
on 364 Comments

Yesterday I told a friend that there would be tens of thousands of Israelis flooding Rabin Square at midnight to celebrate Israel’s return to the world. But when we drove by the plaza at 11:30 the place was dead.

Yesterday I wrote a piece predicting that the election in Israel would be hugely clarifying for Americans. Netanyahu would be gone, the Herzog peace process would begin, and the fight would at last begin between liberal Zionists and anti-Zionists in the U.S. over who could produce results, with neoconservatives exiled.

I couldn’t have been more wrong. I was influenced by the excitement of the Zionist Camp, which believed Netanyahu would end up with as few as 18 seats in the Knesset. Netanyahu got 30. Zionist Camp only 24.

But I was right about this being a hugely clarifying election. All has been revealed to a watching world. Netanyahu’s reversion to racism in the last days of a desperate campaign, his explicit denunciation of “Arab voters” on Facebook so as to get his people out, along with his repudiation of the two-state solution—and the huge reward delivered to him by Israelis for these statements — should be clarifying revelations to the American political class. This is Israel. Everything you have been told about the “Jewish democracy” by the Israel supporters: it is wrong. It may be Jewish, but it is no democracy, this is a white settler society where a fearful privileged group of Jews holds on to its power in ever-expanding colonies by reelecting a strong leader, now in his tenth year as premier, who will use threats and violence against the Palestinians. This place is what Ali Abunimah and Max Blumenthal told us it was years ago. Blumenthal’s video Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem was censored just about everywhere he put it up six years ago. MJ Rosenberg, a liberal Zionist, said that Blumenthal had caricatured the Israeli public by quoting a few yokels.

Well today those yokels have spoken, and they are Israel.

At a polling place in south Jerusalem yesterday, a woman told me how upset she got that morning when her neighbor blurted, “Bloody Arabs,” during an election conversation. But a friend who was with her jumped in to justify the comment. “We are right to be afraid.” Jerusalem can never be divided because the Arabs already destroy the trainline that runs through East Jerusalem, they learn hatred as schoolchildren, she said. So we need a strong leader who will not allow them to have a state. This woman was a child psychologist in her 60s, who has worked in the U.S. and Europe. She wore a chic purple fleece and gray slacks, as sophisticated as they come; and she speaks like a South African haut bourgeois during apartheid.

I had just walked through East Jerusalem to get to the German Colony. There are no polling places in the Nablus Road or on Salah ad-Din Street. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who are governed by Israel, who according to Israel live In Israel, cannot even vote because of the color of their skin. If this is not apartheid, what is? And if this is your idea of a Jewish democracy, why would your children want to be Jewish?

The election results are especially a challenge to liberal Zionists. This was the moment Israel was supposed to pivot. It was a change election, the liberals came to believe in the last few weeks, and I believed right along with them. The kids electioneering for Zionist camp in their blue t-shirts in Jerusalem said they were going to Rabin Square in Tel Aviv that night, depending on the news. Gershom Gorenberg couldn’t suppress his excitement on twitter. Peace Now was hopeful. In The New Yorker, Bernard Avishai described a post-Zionist electorate in which a new center of sophisticated young people (Yesh Atid and Kahlon followers) will end the Likud era because they want to be engaged with the world, not isolated, and the Palestinians can be included in the new economy. Avishai is just as wrong as I was, but he and all liberal Zionists who oppose boycott now need to be challenged. You told us to give Israel a chance. Well, this society is not going to change.

“This is devastating for the peace process,” a crestfallen Yaniv told me at the Zionist Camp party that turned out to be a soggy funeral in Tel Aviv last night. An election that never addressed the peace process had turned into a fury about the peace process at the very end, he said.

“Nothing will change. We need a Mandela. The only thing that can help us is for more pressure to come.”

Yaniv was almost in tears.  When will the liberal Zionists help Yaniv and call for real outside pressure? Last night Peter Beinart, the leading liberal Zionist, tweeted a comment by Rep. Adam Schiff on CNN that from now on the US must not veto Palestinian statehood resolutions in the Security Council. Beinart is rising to the occasion, making his way toward BDS.

At the Zionist Camp party, some people tried to blame Netanyahu for the results, his desperate campaign tactics. “Milosevic,” a liberal Zionist friend said as we left the fizzled hall on the booming north end of town. The New York Times blames Netanyahu too in a long editorial today, citing his “ugly” campaign and “subversive” speech to Congress two weeks ago.

But they are missing the point. The Israeli people have spoken. Noam Sheizaf explains at +972:

There is symbolic significance to the fact that Netanyahu openly campaigned on his opposition to Palestinian statehood. It means that he is backed by a majority of Israeli voters, and an absolute majority of the Jewish vote. There needs to be, and I think there will be, a debate on the implications of this decision by the Jewish public. For years we have been hearing that Israel will either end the occupation or cease to be a democracy. Could it be that the Jewish public has made its choice?

These were the people I met outside the polling places in West Jerusalem yesterday. Even a Zionist Camp voter was railing about Haneen Zoabi on the Joint Arab List: a demon who spews hatred, he said. A Meretz supporter pointed out hopefully that Tzipi Livni of Zionist Camp was going to support the peace process; but Livni had to make it clear this week that she would not ever be prime minister under a Zionist Camp government, lest people would vote against Herzog as an appeaser. The same Livni who is shunned in Europe because she has blood on her hands from two massacres of Palestinians in the last six years.

Jewish Israel is a rightwing society. You must understand that the Zionist Camp the liberal Zionists are so excited about is like the racist Democratic Party back in the days of Jim Crow in the U.S. While the one Jewish leftwing party, Meretz, is more like Obama’s Democratic Party today. The Meretz kids I met yesterday are smart idealists, and anti-racists. And they have 5 seats in a Knesset of 120. One girl told me that in a straw vote of 100 7th graders at Beit Chinuch school, the vote was overwhelmingly for Netanyahu and Bennett, two for Meretz. And this is an affluent West Jerusalem neighborhood.

So this is Israel’s crisis; it has now lost all political cover in the west among liberals. I said on a radio show a couple of months ago that Zionism began with cries of Death to the Jews in Paris in the 1894 that motivated Herzl and ended with cries of Death to the Arabs in Jerusalem. Bernard Avishai said I was wrong, and Jane Eisner and Beinart were silent. But Netanyahu proves the point. This is how Zionism ends.

A couple of years ago Beinart said that Zionism was in crisis. But that crisis for American Jews is over now. Zionism is what Netanyahu has shown us it is, in his frank calls on Jews to hold the land and deny the vote to non-Jews. This is what Palestinian intellectuals from Ghada Karmi to Edward Said to Raja Shehadeh to Lila Abu-Lughod to Saree Makdisi to Ali Abunimah, really the list is endless, have been telling us Zionism is for many years, and they have been marginalized and smeared for saying so.

This moment is immensely clarifying because it will bring those voices into our discourse and force American Zionists to say, What is this Jewish democracy, and what are you prepared to do about it?

Thanks to Scott Roth for reporting and observations in this post.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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364 Responses

  1. Donald
    March 18, 2015, 8:28 am

    I’m not quite so hopeful about liberal Zionists in the West. Some may come to their senses, some not. Tom Friedman found time to put part of the blame for the election on Hamas and its “insane war” last summer, plus the “fact” that the Palestinians turned down two peace offers under Barak and Olmert. So with Israeli brutality last summer on full display and its naked racism in the election equally exposed, he more or less splits the blame.

    And the new line people are spouting in the NYT news reports–Netanyahu is a pragmatist. The 2ss isn’t dead, because we can put our faith in the fact that Netanyahu is a cynical liar who will say anything to win an election. You can’t make this stuff up.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      March 18, 2015, 9:06 am

      True. This has just added another layer to the denialism they wrap themselves up in. Already we’ve had the ”Bibi didn’t really mean it when he said there would be no PaIestinian state” even though he’s on record as saying the same thing for years. Then there’s the notion that this was all the result of so many poor IiI Israelis living in ‘fear’. Would such an excuse ever be offered to the people of Gaza, living every day in infiintely greater fear?

      Even so, it’s going to be harder and harder for libzios to maintain the fraud. They were hoping and praying for a result that would allow them to pretend that there was a kinder, gentler Israel just waiting to get out, and instead they got King Bibi.

      Soon, just maybe, they’re going to have to acknowledge that Bibi is Israel. There is no liberal Zionism. This is the reality.

      • Memphis
        March 18, 2015, 2:01 pm

        Netanyahu’s father said that his son would never implement or support a Palestinian state. You have to be willfully ignorant if you believe that Netanyahu is in favour of granting the Palestinians a state.

        I hope this is a pivotal moment and now that the true face of Israel is bared to the world real pressure can be put on them, and this inherently unjust, and racist movement known as zionism can enter the dust bins of history, and all those who supported it can account for their standing on the wrong side of history.

      • Hostage
        March 18, 2015, 9:02 pm

        Netanyahu’s father said that his son would never implement or support a Palestinian state.

        Well, your first clue should have been that Netanyahu was the Chairman of a party with an official platform plank that said there couldn’t be any Palestinian state between the river and the sea. Other Likud officials always ridiculed the idea that Netanyahu could remain their party boss and support a two state solution:

        Deputy Defense Minister Danny Danon spoke at a Likud party meeting on Monday, wasting no time in voicing his support for a recent proposal to annex the Jordan Valley region, in eastern Samaria.

        “The Jordan Valley is a part of the state of Israel, and whoever thinks otherwise apparently is in the wrong party,” he declared.

        — Danon: ‘Jordan Valley Annexation Part of Likud Party Platform’ http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/175718#.VQoflk2b81J

      • Shingo
        March 19, 2015, 5:11 am

        Already we’ve had the ”Bibi didn’t really mean it when he said there would be no PaIestinian state” even though he’s on record as saying the same thing for years

        What’s amazing is that those liberal Zionists are trying to argue he didn’t really mean it when he said there would be no Palestinian state, but they expect everyone to believe he meant it when he said he did support a 2ss.

      • Walid
        March 19, 2015, 10:10 am

        “but they expect everyone to believe he meant it when he said he did support a 2ss.”

        I believe it too, Shingo, what would Israel do with all those Palestinians, only Netanyahu’s idea of a Palestinian state will probably be something of a joke, something close to what they have made of Gaza.

      • Kathleen
        March 21, 2015, 9:45 am

        Prof Mearsheimer put the two state solution is dead into the clearest explanation I have ever heard years ago. Former President Jimmy Carter definitely inferred that the 2ss was over years ago but Mearsheimer said it out loud.

      • RoHa
        March 21, 2015, 12:42 pm

        “Former President Jimmy Carter definitely inferred that the 2ss was over years ago ”

        I recall that he implied it by what he said. I suppose he must have inferred it from the facts.

    • Krauss
      March 18, 2015, 9:08 am

      Donald if I could upvote you a 100 times, I would.

      I read the NYT’s coverage in rage. Bibi’s racism was disguised as “ugly campaigning”. His racist supporters were labeled as “hardliners”. It was a total makeover, and a total washout.

      Further, the spinning went into overdrive. They all quoted a bunch of panicked Zionists telling the readers that Bibi’s attack on the 2SS was “something in the heat of the moment” and “surely he will reverse himself”.

      These people are acting as de facto blocking backs of Likudniks. It’s like the Sodastream affair all over again, when the chips are down the “liberals” are shoulder-to-shoulder with the Likudniks. Just like when J Street cheers on the Gaza massacre.

      I disagree with Phil that this outcome doesn’t produce a liberal Zionist vs non-Zionist outcome. If anything this accelerates it. There’s no defence anymore. Yet the apparatchiks will continue to fight for Israel. Nothing will delegitimize them more.

      • Shingo
        March 18, 2015, 4:29 pm

        I read the NYT’s coverage in rage. Bibi’s racism was disguised as “ugly campaigning”. His racist supporters were labeled as “hardliners”. It was a total makeover, and a total washout.

        I couldn’t agree more with you and Donald. When Bibbi was elected in 2009, the liberal Zionists were at first panicked, then all was forgiven when he gave his speech in favor of a 2ss. Then when Liberman rose to prominence, the same camp was in a panic, but over time, they and the right wing rehabilitated his image and he became a hard liner who could be reasoned with. Then along came Bennet and the spin was all directed at how he was such a successful entrepreneur and an elite commando.

        In fact, what frightened the Liberal Zionists the most about Bennet is that he actually proposed offering citizenship to many Palestinians.

        I am many others have said for a long time that the problem is not the right wing in Israel, it’s the liberal Zionists because they have served as the worst and most dishonest enablers.

        I can only hope this marks the end of J Street.

      • Taxi
        March 18, 2015, 4:42 pm

        Shingo,

        Cool to see you pal.

        Phil’s a bit J-streety with his headline “Who Can Save Isreal Now?” Is what I think.

        Netanyahu’s victory appears to be instantly radicalizing even the sidelined jews (like Phil).

      • peeesss
        March 19, 2015, 2:20 am

        There truly is no defense any more, if there ever was one. “Liberal” attached to Zionism has always been an oxymoron. A racist, religious , ideology mandated from its inception to be an exclusive “Jewish State”, carried out by the ethnic cleansing by terror, massacres of the indigenous Palestinian people by the founders of Zionism cannot be labeled “liberal” in any way within the meaning of the word. Netanyahu is just a more crude, vulgar expression of the true Zionist. From Ben Gurion, to Begin, Shamir, Sharon, Peres, Rabin, Barak, Livni, Olmhert the innocent blood on their hands flows as strongly as it does from Netanyahu. The Zionist Camp of Herzog/Livni would continue the travesty of supposed negotiation’s on the non existent two State solution to satisfy its US and western European sponsors. So did all the previous Prime Ministers mentioned above. The Idea of war criminal Livni leading a government striving for a just 2 State solution is absurd. As for the vast majority of the people of Israel they have spoken before as to their true feelings. From cheering the onslaught on the children of Gaza , to the ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem, the support of the racist settlers on their terrorism on the people and the land of Palestine, to the hatred that spews from the mouths of leading politicians and Rabbi’s one shouldn/t be surprised that Netanyahu was victorious. Only in the eyes of good people like Philip who want to believe, no matter how obvious the history shows otherwise, there is no Liberal Zionism. I stand with Max Blumenthal, and Ilian Pappe.

      • Citizen
        March 19, 2015, 9:54 am

        MSNBC is using the same language of obfuscation to dilute the clear fact Bibi is a racist supremacist and Bibi is lebensraum Israel. Fox is skirting the issue. I didn’t watch Wolf on CNN.

      • Walid
        March 19, 2015, 10:38 am

        “I can only hope this marks the end of J Street.” (Shingo)

        I agree, I always thought these guys were phony, way from the start.

      • just
        March 19, 2015, 3:59 pm

        “White House chief of staff to headline J Street conference
        J Street announced Denis McDonough as its speaker on Thursday.

        JTA – Denis McDonough, the White House chief of staff, will headline the annual J Street conference, at a time of U.S.-Israel tensions over the liberal Jewish Middle East policy group’s signature issue, the two-state solution.

        J Street announced McDonough as its speaker Thursday, three days before the start of the conference, which is expected to attract a record 3,000 activists, including 1,000 students.

        McDonough’s appearance at the conference for the group, which is strongly critical of the policies of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, comes at a low point in ties between the Obama and Netanyahu governments.”

        http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.647864

        hmmm.

      • weindeb
        March 19, 2015, 5:20 pm

        Liberal Zionists? Please. And as to J Street, even if it was founded an honest attempt to create and support liberal Zionism, which I rather doubt, it is now nothing more than a distracting ploy and probably not much more serious or dangerous than a nonentity.

    • W.Jones
      March 18, 2015, 9:14 am

      You’re right, Donald.

      The main question then is whether the US Zionists are following what is the strong Israeli shift to the right over the generations. In another 50 years or so we are looking at someone in power there who is twice as right wing as Netanyahu. So if Netanyahu (or his heir) decides the 2SS is over and continues saying that, what will the US Zionists do?

      In the US, the main generational change seems to be that younger Jewish generations in general are not so much left wing on the question of Israeli nationalism as they don’t care about it. So the main thing to watch for will be the shift in opinion in both countries as the decades go on.

      Yes, I would love Israel/Palestine to have the same feelings and experience of the anti-Apartheid success of South Africa combined with that of interfaith reconciliation on a national scale. Or at least a resolution under the UN parameters with the Israelis withdrawing to the UN lines and Jerusalem being internationalized. But we don’t always get what we want.

      • JeffB
        March 18, 2015, 10:32 am

        @WJones

        I’m more optimistic about what the situation looks like in 50 years. But let’s go with your premise that a Jim Crow Israel exists.

        You have to remember that demographic changes are hitting the Jewish population as well. The religious have lots of kids the secular don’t. Moreover the secular intermarry at a high rate. The grandchildren of the intermarried are Christian. So USA Jews who are today liberal are having atheist and Christian grandchildren. The many millions of descendants will be Christian or Atheist and have a Jewish grandparent. Those kids they may have some degree of affection for Judaism, Israel and the Jewish people but their self identity won’t be tied up in Israel. Israel is just some foreign country that is friendly to the USA and that they have warm feelings about even if they don’t like how they treat their indigenous minority.

        Now let’s talk about the population that identifies as Jewish. Among those young Jews something like 70% of young Jews will be Israeli. 1/2 the remainder will have strong ties: 1/2 Israeli or Orthodox and thus frequently in Israel. They won’t have the Jewish religious identity tied up with Reform movement and Western European / American social justice… It just isn’t part of their background. That leaves in America a faction say 1.5m non religious Jews with no or weak ties to Israel left of which a few hundred thousand are young. The question is in 2 generations are they liberal in the same way? Jews are moving right as they assimilate. Certainly some fraction will be but I doubt in anything like today’s numbers. So now you have tens of thousands of young Jewish liberals who think of Israel as a violation of their values. That’s not a mass movement, it can support a magazine though.

      • W.Jones
        March 18, 2015, 11:16 am

        Jeff,

        I don’t see anything you wrote that contradicts my conclusion. Jewish Americans, as we both agree, will not care as much about the Israelis. Even if they somewhat move to the right in the US, I don’t think i will be that strong, anymore than say Italians, who were still Democrats. Due to being a somewhat secular religious minority they will still be more likely to be liberals in cultural values.

        So we are going to see a future widening of a divide between the support base in the US and the Israeli state in Palestine.

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 11:27 am

        “JeffyB” could you help me out? We have a very large garden, and spring is almost here. Certainly you could spare a couple dozen bags of Steer-gro?

        Okay, could you at least come over later after things have got going, and talk to my plants?

      • Pixel
        March 18, 2015, 7:30 pm

        @wjones

        \\ In the US, the main generational change seems to be that younger Jewish generations in general are not so much left wing on the question of Israeli nationalism as they don’t care about it. So the main thing to watch for will be the shift in opinion in both countries as the decades go on.//

        As the decades go on?

        There’s been more than a sea-change during the past 9 years (2006 Walt/Mearsheimer – today).

        What’s out there rolling in behind it is a tsunami.

    • W.Jones
      March 18, 2015, 9:17 am

      “This moment is immensely clarifying because it will bring those voices into our discourse and force American Zionists to say, What is this Jewish democracy, and what are you prepared to do about it?” ~Weiss

      “I’m not quite so hopeful about liberal Zionists in the West. Some may come to their senses, some not.” ~ Donald

      Donald,

      You need to understand that he is an optimist as much or more than a realist, although of course he is sincere. Of course, his optimism can be correct. People should ask what happened to the exit polls vs. the official results.

      Phil is right in that this moment is one of many steps along the way that will eventually force the Liberal Zionists to ask what went wrong.

      • Citizen
        March 19, 2015, 10:01 am

        Anybody want to opine on what Dick and Jane have been thinking about all this coverage of Israeli elections and Bibi’s intervention behind Obama’s back on Iran–lots of chatter on these topics (along with Ferguson & Hillary’s email) on the cable news/infotainment shows in last few weeks.

      • W.Jones
        March 19, 2015, 11:02 am

        Citizen,

        Net’s popularity went up 2 percent points among republicans and down by what, 10 among Democrats.

    • Sycamores
      March 18, 2015, 1:14 pm

      Donald,

      every thing Netanyahu said before the election will be played down and mostly forgotten about in the media within short period of time. Damage control will save liberal Zionists from losing faith in Israel.

      Efforts already were under way in Washington to lower the temperature.

      “People say a lot of things during campaigns,” State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told CNN when asked about Netanyahu’s apparent reversal on Palestinian statehood.

      “What we’re focused on is the Israelis moving forward, forming a government and we will work with whoever is prime minister to see if we can make progress in what is a very tough and difficult area to do so,” she said.

      Nancy Pelosi, the House of Representatives Democratic minority leader, said that as someone who loves Israel, she was “near tears” during Netanyahu’s March 3 address, calling his remarks an “insult to the intelligence of the United States.”

      But on Tuesday, she said the U.S.-Israeli relationship would stay strong, whoever won, and declined to weigh in before the result on whether Netanyahu’s speech hurt him.

      “It’s a very, very … intellectual relationship, security relationship and an emotional one as well,” she told reporters.

      Underscoring the partisan divide over Netanyahu, Republican U.S. Senator Ted Cruz said: “His electoral success is all the more impressive given the powerful forces that tried to undermine him, including, sadly, the full weight of the Obama political team.”

      http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/israel-election-usa-idINKBN0ME02320150318

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 1:27 pm

        ““It’s a very, very … intellectual relationship, security relationship and an emotional one as well””

        Intellectual???

        It’s a SICK relationship, Nancy. Get over it. Get help. Quit yer kvetching.

      • pineywoodslim
        March 18, 2015, 5:44 pm

        @ Sycamores

        Unfortunately, I think you are exactly right. There is absolutely no accountability in the US for anything any politician or media pundit does or says, and no consequences to one’s career whether in public service or the media.

        The whitewashing of events less than 48 hours old is no different from the airbrushing in or out of old Kremlin photographs in order to create a certain reality that fits the official policy.

      • Donald
        March 18, 2015, 7:17 pm

        “Damage control will save liberal Zionists from losing faith in Israel”

        I think that’s a fundamental truth about most liberal Zionists. Whatever happens, they find some way to spin it. Most of the time it boils down to some crude Orwellian tactics–facts down the memory hole and settling on a one line bumper sticker slogan in place of real history. That’s what Friedman did in his column today.

      • Shingo
        March 19, 2015, 5:14 am

        I think that’s a fundamental truth about most liberal Zionists. Whatever happens, they find some way to spin it. Most of the time it boils down to some crude Orwellian tactics–facts down the memory hole and settling on a one line bumper sticker slogan in place of real history. That’s what Friedman did in his column today.

        The right wing Zionists do this too though they are less dishonest about it. The other day Rand Paul said he signed the letter to Iran, along with the other 46 senators to, get this, help Obama. I don’t consider Rand Paul a Zionists but it’s probably what AIPAC told him to say.

      • Kay24
        March 19, 2015, 3:30 am

        This is one of the most disgusting relationships in the world. It is a sick obsession that the US leaders have for one of the most brutal regimes in the world. It is hard to comprehend just how NAIVE our leaders like Pelosi can be, or pretend to be, going along with Netanyahu’s bizarre games of “we want peace but the other side is always to be blamed”. According to the zionist narrative, the Palestinians NEVER wants peace, and want to keep being occupied, blockaded, and used as targets when Israel weapons are being tested. How much more proof do they need, that Netanyahu, and his blood thirsty civilians, WANT THE STATUS QUO, nothing else. Lets stop pretending otherwise. Even the zionist media keeps up this charade.

        Even today France has stated they hope the peace talks will resume…peace talks after all the disgusting racism and rhetoric shown by Netanyahu? Give us a break.

    • Brown-Eyed Girl
      March 18, 2015, 2:09 pm

      Donald, I saw Friedman’s column this morning. I was shocked when I got to the line about the “insane, worthless war Hamas initiated in Gaza last Summer.” I was shocked as I along with 98% of the world saw Israel wage war in Gaza. The liberal Zionists aren’t going to change. They will blame Global Warming before they admit that the true face of Zionism was seen in the election results in Israel.

      • Kay24
        March 19, 2015, 3:34 am

        They have all drunk that kosher koolaid. They can be delusional and ignore facts, UN investigations, and the massacre of civilians, and the mere fact that it is Israel that wields the deadly weapons and used their ruthless armed forces, against those measly rockets.
        Friedman, like other zionists, have moments of amnesia, when it suits them. They are able to change facts like changing underwear.

    • Hostage
      March 18, 2015, 3:27 pm

      Re: “the NYT news reports–Netanyahu is a pragmatist. The 2ss isn’t dead, because we can put our faith in the fact that Netanyahu is a cynical liar who will say anything to win an election.”

      It’s unsurprising. Other news outlets are not so enthusiastic about that prospect, e.g. AP ANALYSIS: Israel likely headed toward conflict, isolation http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/ap-analysis-advantage-netanyahu-in-close-race/2015/03/17/4872cad0-cd05-11e4-8730-4f473416e759_story.html

      The NY Times deflected attention away from the fact that Netanyahu’s last coalition agreement required the government to adopt a racist Basic Law that would define “Israel as a nation state of Jewish people only” and the fact that he called for these early elections as a direct result of objections from Lapid and Livni over his attempts to fulfill the exact terms of that formal inter-party agreement.

      The only thing missing from everyone’s analysis, so far, is the fact that Netanyahu has finally been given a clear mandate to pursue that agenda – and the fact that he can now form a new far-right coalition that will almost certainly insist upon the new government’s adoption of a full slate of racist laws, including Netanyahu’s proposed Basic Law constituting Israel as the Nation State of the Jewish People.

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 4:04 pm

        Hello. Wonderful to see your name above a comment again. Hope you’ve been well. Best to you!

        “The only thing missing from everyone’s analysis, so far, is the fact that Netanyahu has finally been given a clear mandate to pursue that agenda”

        And there is the election result. Another step to the right.

      • Taxi
        March 18, 2015, 4:08 pm

        Salutations Hostage. Long time no see… and man, it was painful not seeinyaz!

        And you’re absolutely right to remind us of the the insidious causes and backdrop to this election. It most certainly makes for a clearer picture and context – the isrealis really do want Apartheid and to hell with the world.

        The level of bloodlust and arrogance that comes from the citizenry who’ve delivered this power and racist mandate to Netanyahu is now fully exposed. And I say, let the likudists make isreal into a “Nation State of the Jewish People.” The consequences of this move is positively lethal to everything the isrealis have built. Apartheid isreal, even with the help and support of the USA, cannot win an economic/cultural/military war against the world. (There would be severe repercussions and civil unrest across our land if our government was hellbent on supporting a blatant Apartheid state with aid packages and military ware. But that’s another discussion for another day).

        Those of us who’ve been waiting for the slayer of the dragon to come and save the day are now watching the dragon slay itself.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 4:22 pm

        Hi Hostage… can you tell that you’ve been missed?

        “Those of us who’ve been waiting for the slayer of the dragon to come and save the day are now watching the dragon slay itself.”

        I hope he receives more than a little help from some former ‘friends’.

      • Shingo
        March 18, 2015, 4:35 pm

        How we’ve missed you Hostage. Please stick around. I’ll be blocking the exists so you can’t leave. ;-)

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 5:13 pm

        A quick check shows me that Hostage has been doing some commenting, but this is the first time I’ve been fortunate enough to run into him.

      • Hostage
        March 18, 2015, 9:37 pm

        It’s nice to see that all of you (Mooser, Taxi, Just, Shingo, Donald, et al) have been “holding down the fort” while I was away. I’ve missed all of you too.

      • Citizen
        March 19, 2015, 10:09 am

        Hey, glad you’re back Hostage! Please stick around.

      • Hostage
        March 20, 2015, 12:05 am

        Hey, glad you’re back Hostage! Please stick around.

        I certainly intend to. I’m glad to see that you’re still here.

      • MRW
        March 20, 2015, 12:06 am

        @Hostage,

        To put it in the vernacular because everyone is still in the grateful stage: we’ve really missed your ass.

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 1:18 pm

        “To put it in the vernacular…”

        I know just how you feel. I sometimes know the way I feel about these things, but Hostage usually knows why I feel that way.

      • Susan A
        March 21, 2015, 8:55 am

        Hi Hostage,
        I don’t comment on here very much (I’m an avid reader), but I too had noticed your absence and am very happy to see you back. I noticed that you’d commented the other day. Your comments are often invaluable. Thanks!
        PS. We also missed Mooser for a year or so too!
        PPS. I’m also wondering what’s happened to Shmuel, whose last post was a little unsettling as I remember. Hope he’s okay.

    • mikedobson
      March 19, 2015, 10:58 am

      Does anyone really believe the pronouncements of Israeli politicians pro or anti 2ss? Are they even worth reporting? It ceased to be a realistic goal in Oslo. Every torturous twist and turn since then has led to an increase in Israel’s real estate and a tightening of the noose around the Palestinian neck. In this respect Netenyahu is at least being truthful – he’s saying it how it is.

      Even discussing this as a viable, live possibility is pandering to the Zionist agenda. It pushes the idea that it’s a subject of debate and nuance. It isn’t. It’s not going to happen. Period. The issue needs to move on and reflect the actual situation in the OT, in short, how far will Israel go in its excision of the Palestinians from their homeland and what or who is going to stop them.

    • Kathleen
      March 19, 2015, 11:51 am

      Axelrod was busy on MSM outlets making excuses for Netanyau’s racism and clear support of an apartheid Israel by saying BB was an incredible politician. Basically doing what he had to do to keep his spot.

      Scarborough made excuses for BB on his program this (Thursday) morning. He totally flipped the script…again. Scarborough “will the Palestinians be a willing partner” As if BB publicly saying what most of us all ready knew he does not support a “two state solution.”

      • Kay24
        March 19, 2015, 12:44 pm

        Isn’t it strange, BB says there will be NO 2 state solution, and yet it is the Palestinians (according to those kissing up to the zionist bosses in the media), that are reluctant and unwilling to sit and discuss what could potentially be a way to their freedom. What a load of bull they keep feeding the American viewers, and how delusional they seem to be.

  2. eljay
    March 18, 2015, 8:38 am

    Zionism is what Netanyahu has shown us it is, in his frank calls on Jews to hold the land and deny the vote to non-Jews.

    Zionism is Jewish supremacism. Israel is the supremacist “Jewish State”. And Bibi is King.

    (Sorry, Riley.)

    All hail King Bibi. :-P

    • John O
      March 18, 2015, 1:23 pm

      Shouldn’t there be an apostrophe before that K? Analogous to that well-known expression of frustration – ‘King hell!

  3. Steve Macklevore
    March 18, 2015, 8:40 am

    It’s an extraordinary result and very hard to accept.

    In the short term, we can expect even more open hostility between the Obama administration and Netanyahu. We can also expect a rise in pro-Palestinian activism and some support from unexpected quarters (Thomas Friedman’s views have definitely evolved in past few years).

    In the medium term, I’m desperately sad since it’s obvious that Netanyahu really hates ‘Arabs’ as he calls Palestinians and the other nationalities around Israel. His hatred is expressed in frequent death orgies and provocations. Many Palestinians and possibly Lebanese, Syrians and others will be killed because of this election. Thousands more will be mutilated and traumatised.

    In the long term, the reelection of Netanyahu may well start the long process of Israeli separation from the United States. This can only be of benefit to the Palestinian people and their supporters. I just hope this separation comes sooner rather than later. It’s hard to imagine this conflict with a happy ending but a more independent United states is essential to achieve an end.

  4. W.Jones
    March 18, 2015, 8:53 am

    I was influenced by the excitement of the Zionist Camp, which believed Netanyahu would end up with as few as 18 seats in the Knesset. Netanyahu got 30. Zionist Camp only 24.

    I was influenced instead by the Exit polls showing Herzog ahead. It’s strange. We got repeated announcements that Herzog was slightly in the lead or about tied. Is this potential Florida style voter fraud then?

    Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who are governed by Israel, who according to Israel live In Israel, cannot even vote because of the color of their skin.
    Formally, that is correct- it is one “people” ruling another. However, based on the way the state defines membership in the people, it is actually one religious community ruling others.

    • lysias
      March 18, 2015, 10:20 am

      The difference could be explained by people unwilling to admit to the exit pollsters that they had voted for Likud.

      • ToivoS
        March 18, 2015, 1:55 pm

        The Israeli electorate is very difficult to pol. Many of the orthodox Jewish voters do not trust pollsters and provide misleading information. This has been true for years. It is probably why polls in Israel frequently miss outcomes. I suspect this would apply to exit pols as well.

  5. gracie fr
    March 18, 2015, 8:55 am

    Netanyahu’s comments present a coherent and chilling vision of his long-term strategy. His intention is to maintain singular Israeli control in perpetuity over the entire territory that the early Zionists were once happy to partition into two states. This course will eventually lead to pressure for Palestinians to gain a democratic voice within the institutions that control their lives, but Netanyahu treats that as illegitimate, as well. He proposes to snuff out every peaceful outlet for Arab political aspirations.

    In this light, his bumbling attempts to transform Israel’s alliance with the United States into an alliance with its conservative movement looks less like a blunder (as his former ambassador Michael Oren has described it) and more like a plan. In the long run, a deep American alliance with the kind of garrison state Netanyahu envisions will become untenable. The only remaining diplomatic strategy will be to deepen Israel’s ties with right-wing America, whose support for Israel is not contingent upon it fulfilling its liberal, democratic ideals. The Republicans who hailed Netanyahu as a Churchillian prophet are cheering a figure who no longer disguises his intention to bury forever the original Zionist dream.
    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/03/netanyahus-vision-for-post-democratic-israel.html

  6. Bandolero
    March 18, 2015, 9:08 am

    Regarding the title: Who can save Israel now?

    Why would anybody want to save Israel now?

    Netanyahu and his voters have proven Nasrallah and Khamenei to be right: the only viable solution to the I/P problem is ending the zionist project to create one state in Palestine with equal rights for all people there and the only way to get there is resistance.

    • Giles
      March 18, 2015, 11:09 am

      “…the only viable solution to the I/P problem is ending the zionist project to create one state in Palestine with equal rights for all people there..”

      Why would anyone oppose this? Yet the Zionists do.

      • eljay
        March 18, 2015, 11:29 am

        || Bandolero: … the only viable solution to the I/P problem is ending the zionist project to create one state in Palestine with equal rights for all people there … ||

        I’m not sure that it’s the only viable solution, but IMO it’s the most just and moral solution.

    • Taxi
      March 18, 2015, 11:13 am

      “Why would anybody want to save Israel now?”

      It amazes me that anyone would want to save a mass-murdering monster in the first place. And it double amazes me that it’s taken this long and this election event for the world to be able to see beyond a doubt what the zionist’s true intentions are and always have been: a continuous and brutal occupation of Arab Palestinians – bulldozing their way right up to the forked tips of either criminal ethnic cleansing of Historic Palestine, or a criminal genocide of the Palestinians: a point of (criminal) no return.

      It especially amazes me that Axis of Resistance’s informed POV has always been seen as hostile and unreasonable by the West.

      Israelis Vote For War and Deeper Global Isolation – Taxi:
      https://platosguns.wordpress.com/

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 2:08 pm

        Great comment and link, Taxi. Thanks.

      • Taxi
        March 18, 2015, 3:03 pm

        Thanks, just.

        It’s a wordpress blog so all MW bloggers are already registered to comment, uncensored.

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 6:10 pm

        “It amazes me that anyone would want to save a mass-murdering monster in the first place.”

        I found the title problemmatic, too. Bothering me since it went up. It just hit me, I’d rather it said “Who can save Palestine now”, because that takes in much, much more of what needs to be saved. From Israel.

    • can of worms
      March 18, 2015, 3:38 pm

      @Bandolero: “the only viable solution to the I/P problem is ending the zionist project to create one state in Palestine with equal rights for all people ”

      Yes. However, the so-called “Arab” list have yet to say the words “One State”. They are not. That is the biggest problem. The 2ss is actually their official platform! And while we’re at it, on the eve of elections, it was someone’s job to force Netanyahu to repeat “there will never be a Palestinian state” to their face and take it from there. Well now it is brushed off as a meaningless slogan. And lastly, if a party was going to allow themselves to be dubbed the “Arab” list then I say they shouldn’t complain later, when campaigners tell voters that “the Arabs” are mobilizing to the polls. They should have demanded respect as the united Non-Zionist list. But in Israel that risks being called “traitors” and they didn’t want that. I don’t expect anything from a Zio Israeli – absolutely nothing- because every aspect of their lives is steeped in ignorance of and superiority to the other. But one should expect the words “One State Solution” and “economic compensation” to come out of every Non-Zio mouth.

      • Hostage
        March 18, 2015, 8:26 pm

        the so-called “Arab” list . . . if a party was going to allow themselves to be dubbed the “Arab” list then I say they shouldn’t complain”

        You are really only attacking your own straw man. The Joint List included the Jewish-Arab party Hadash which fielded a Jewish candidate, Dov Khenin.

      • can of worms
        March 19, 2015, 12:00 am

        @”The Joint List included the Jewish-Arab party Hadash which fielded a Jewish candidate, Dov Khenin”
        Indeed, and Hadash also supports a 2ss (what for??? They say it’s because a 1ss is not “practical”) and also accepts being called the Joint “Arab” List — again, why? In order to avoid being called the Anti-Zionist List? As if running on the Anti-Zionist ticket in Israel is like running on the Joint Anti-American Party in the US. I don’t like it. This is not the way to change the discourse and upheave the system. And you don’t rely on Zios to do that!

      • can of worms
        March 19, 2015, 12:20 am

        You would expect some resistance to being called the “Joint Arab List” which falls right into the Zio discursive lap. At least say “Joint Palestinian List” to remind us of being an integral part of the Palestinian people. Joint Anti-Zio List is best because it brings the argument forward. But even of this symbolic move they are afraid – I can see no other explanation for it. And again, my anger is directed here, because from Jewish citizens who are bred in structural separation and ignorance one can expect nothing.

      • Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 2:15 pm

        Indeed, and Hadash also supports a 2ss (what for??? They say it’s because a 1ss is not “practical”) and also accepts being called the Joint “Arab” List — again, why?

        You either understand set theory and unions between sets or you don’t. The set of all Arab parties includes one member that happens to be both a Jewish and Arab party. The five seat threshold was established to prevent it from being represented in the Knesset too. To be perfectly honest, I don’t see any “practical” way (right at this moment) to establish a “national unity government” that would include Benjamin Netanyahu and Ishmail Haniyeh or Khaled Mashal.

        In any event, it would be pointless to form a joint list and then deliberately adopt a position that could be used to legally bar all of its candidates from running for public office. Israel denies Arab citizens the right to vote for lists of candidates that do not recognize Israel as the state of the Jewish people. For example, in 1965 the Central Election Commission (CEC) declared al-Ard “an unlawful association, because its promoters deny the [territorial] integrity of the state of Israel and its very existence”. The decision was appealed to the Supreme Court (Yardor v. CEC 1965 ) on the grounds that the CEC had no statutory authority under the law then in effect to do such a thing. Despite that fact, the Supreme Court upheld the CEC decision. See Yoav Peled, “Ethnic Democracy and the Legal Construction of Citizenship: Arab Citizens of the Jewish State, The American Political Science Review, Vol. 86, No. 2 (Jun., 1992), pp. 432-443 http://www.jstor.org/stable/1964231

        See also: Liberman’s party calls to disqualify new united Arab faction http://www.timesofisrael.com/libermans-party-calls-to-disqualify-new-united-arab-faction/

    • Shingo
      March 18, 2015, 4:38 pm

      Why would anybody want to save Israel now?

      As Beinart predicted, when push comes to shove and Liberal Zionists are forced to chose between democracy/human rights and Zionism/apartheid, most will go with with the latter. We will see that happen more and more.

    • Kathleen
      March 19, 2015, 11:54 am

      Many of the better late than never crowd came out the last 10 years ultimately to save Israel based on the internationally recognized borders. They could see the way it was heading. Not necessarily committed to real human rights stances they could see the way the wind was shifting. The exposure of the apartheid state of Israel

  7. Scott Stapp
    March 18, 2015, 9:21 am

    No one will save Israel. It’s not worth it. Besides, liberal zionists are half-neocon out the door anyway, so they can eat a bowl of shiz.

  8. Marshall
    March 18, 2015, 9:21 am

    Stupendous, Phil.

    If Netanyahu is sweeping to power on the strength of fear-mongering about the small number of Palestinians permitted to vote, how can the rest of the world condemn a turn to violent means? Especially when the occupation, blockade, and subjugation are so obviously violent themselves.

    • seafoid
      March 18, 2015, 11:10 am

      It’s all fear and loathing

      http://mondoweiss.net/profile/seafoid#sthash.9xjAEYFr.dpuf

      “But we learned, when we see him sending out tweets, texts and a video saying “Hurry friends, the Arabs are going out in droves to vote, bused in by the left” – we see in that moment what he really thinks of the 20% of Israeli citizens who are Arab. They are the enemy. They are a danger. They and their votes are to be feared. Their walking peacefully to their places of voting is an existential threat, just like every Palestinian organization of every political stripe. Just like Iran and ISIS and BDS. Just like the Obama administration. ” –

      It’s a paranoid form of Judaism.
      The Mr Hyde and Dr Jekyllstein show of peerless regional military power and eternal victimhood- boundless cruelty while simultaneous whining…

      • mikedobson
        March 19, 2015, 11:18 am

        Every now and again I allow myself to be cajoled into thinking that the world is giving the Palestinians a fair crack of the whip. And then something like Netenyahu’s “Arab” comment – and more chillingly, the complete lack of outrage in decent society it elicits – slams me right in the gonads.

        Can you imagine Merkel issuing a statement in a tight German Election that Jews are being bussed in to vote for the Liberals? Can you imagine the global shit storm and Zionist chest-beating that would evoke around the globe?

        F***ing staggering – we are in a very dark place.

      • eljay
        March 19, 2015, 12:15 pm

        || mikedobson @ March 19, 2015, 11:18 am ||

        By their words and by their deeds, Zio-supremacists make it very clear that they feel entitled to do unto others things they would not have others do unto them.

      • Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 9:19 pm

        Can you imagine Merkel issuing a statement in a tight German Election that Jews are being bussed in to vote for the Liberals?

        I dunno, she has made equally clueless statements about the need to respect the territorial integrity of other states (a basic UN Charter treaty obligation) so they will give up nuclear weapons or stop pursuing their production under the terms of the NPT, i.e.:

        Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany, brought renewed attention at the Munich Security Conference this month to the Budapest Memorandum, an instrument adopted some twenty years ago by Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom and the United States. The Chancellor said that the Russian Federation, by invading eastern Ukraine and annexing Crimea, “has broken its commitment to the Budapest Memorandum.” Merkel asked, “Who would give up their nuclear capability if their territorial integrity were not respected?

        http://www.ejiltalk.org/the-budapest-memorandum-and-beyond-have-the-western-parties-breached-a-legal-obligation/

        Here’s a link to the Budapest security agreement http://www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/49/765

        Germany is a member of the P5+1 that obviously doesn’t apply that same rationale to the negotiations with Iran. Israel and the US Congress are constantly threatening to blockade or bomb Iranian nuclear facilities that are perfectly legal under the NPT and the Statute of the IAEA. Merkel is aware of those threats, but still provides Israel with nuclear capable submarines. I’ve commented in the past that Article 10 of the Non-Proliferation Treaty specifically allows a state party to withdraw from the agreement whenever its national security is threatened in that fashion:

        ARTICLE X
        1. Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the
        Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country.

        https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/publications/documents/infcircs/1970/infcirc140.pdf

        Can you imagine the global shit storm and Zionist chest-beating that would evoke around the globe?

        Yes, but the Zionists would love nothing more. They want Germany to make Israeli ex-pats or Jewish emigrants from other countries to feel as unwelcome as possible there. They have always lobbied the German governments for legislation to accomplish that goal. See for example: Germany Is Moving To End Mass Immigration of Jews From Russia http://forward.com/articles/4029/germany-is-moving-to-end-mass-immigration-of-jews/

  9. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    March 18, 2015, 9:21 am

    ”It was a change election, ”

    No. It never was.

    Let’s look at the alternatives, the hopey changey figures. First up, we have Yitzak Herzog, who greatly expanded the ‘settlements’ during his time as Housing Minister, who denounced Bibi for being too ‘soft’ during the Gaza massacre, and who openly said Israel will keep most of the settlements. Alongside him, we have Tzipi Cast Lead Livni, butcher of Gaza, who was reveaIed in the PaIestine papers as turning down the most generous offer possible.

    This is ‘change’ in Israel? No. Or if yes, only in style, not substance. If all these flag waving dorks wanted change so much, where were they when Gaza was being bombed in their name? Not in Rabin Square, that’s for sure. No, they were back home fretting about the ‘soul’ of Israel.

    Zionism is not reformable. Not by Herzog, not by Livni, not by anyone.

    • W.Jones
      March 18, 2015, 10:06 am

      Maxim,

      On content, it was a domestic policy divide on economics. The Israeli Neoliberals/Neocons won that election because of all the war mongering. Livni and Herzog were presented as more flexible on Foreign Policy, even though you’re right that in content their positions were close (except the NO 2SS announcement by Net was new)

    • kalithea
      March 18, 2015, 12:39 pm

      Zionism is not reformable. Not by Herzog, not by Livni, not by anyone.

      Very true; but die-hard Liberal Zionists will continue to sell it as such to keep Zionism and all its injustice going.

  10. JeffB
    March 18, 2015, 9:24 am

    @Phil

    This was a base election. MSNBCs’ comment that Netanyahu was the new George Bush (43) I think is accurate. Certainly most liberal zionists detested George Bush so that does present a problem. What this election showed was whatever saw that Israelis are shifting left economically and right on foreign policy. While there are still divisive issues there is a growing consensus about what sorts of policy shifts Israelis want. This election presents the new PM with a mandate.

    Israelis have never indicated they want a strained violent relationship with Palestinians. What they have indicated they want is an unquestionably Jewish state. Israel will be Jewish in the way that France is French. Israel can be highly democratic, but that democratic impulse will not be allowed to undermine the function of the state. I think this election clarifies what Jewish and Democratic mean. Israel can be Democratic in so far as that doesn’t compromise it being Jewish.

    The real lesson of the election is

    a) Israel has a majority or close to it on the right
    b) The various rightwing parties really are more like a primary in the USA representing various factions that will come together when threatened by the left.

    As an aside what I’ve been hearing is the reason the exit polls were so off was the military vote. The rightward shift is more present among the young. Denormalization is dangerous for Palestinians. Denormalization is dangerous for Palestinians. Denormalization is dangerous for Palestinians.

    Having abandoned the two state solution I think the most obvious thing for Netanyahu to do would be go give Bennett the Foreign Ministry and let him sell the Bennett plan globally for the next few years. Bennett needs some international experience and he would happily work with Netanyahu on this.

    As for Americans. I still think most Jews who are involved fundamentally understand the dynamic. The holocaust proved the need for a Jewish state not a Jewish homeland. What BDS proposes, even in your incredibly optimistic scenarios is a Jewish homeland within a Palestinian state. They won’t like that.

    When asked whether they want a more democratic state in Israel I suspect liberals will say yes (heck most conservatives would say that). When asked if they want Khaled Mashaal to have control of Israeli’s ICBMs I suspect liberals will quickly say no. When asked if they had to pick which do they pick… I suspect liberals will want some sort of measure that doesn’t sound so bad like the ZU.

    Finally.

    . Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who are governed by Israel, who according to Israel live In Israel, cannot even vote because of the color of their skin.

    East Jerusalem residents can apply for citizenship and once they get it can vote. That skin color things simply isn’t true. More importantly there is no skin color laws in Israel. This is a complex enough issue without fabricating stuff for effect. If East Jerusalemites choose for residency and not citizenship as a protest then they have made their choice. I’d prefer that East Jerusalem residents not be allowed to renounce their citizenship (the same way a USA citizen can’t renounce inside the USA) but so far Israel gave them that choice.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      March 18, 2015, 9:39 am

      ”Israelis have never indicated they want a strained violent relationship with Palestinians.”

      You’re right of course jeffeeee beeee.

      Other than stealing their land, evicting hundreds of thousand of them, destroying their lives, killing them regularly and taking periodic turkey shoots at their homes and schools it’s probably true that Israelis have never indicated they want a strained violent relationship with Palestinians.

      What’s a bit of ethnic cleansing among friends eh, jeffy bee?

      • eljay
        March 18, 2015, 9:53 am

        || JeffBeee: Israelis have never indicated they want a strained violent relationship with Palestinians. ||

        As their almost 70-year-long record of past and ON-GOING (war) crimes indicates. Funny stuff.

        || What they have indicated they want is an unquestionably Jewish state. ||

        Unquestionably. They wouldn’t be Zio-supremacists if what they wanted was a secular and democratic Israeli state – a state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, ex-pats [sic] and refugees, equally.

        || Israel will be Jewish in the way that France is French. ||

        Israel as Israeli is the same as France as French. Israel as “Jewish State” is a religion-supremacist construct.

      • W.Jones
        March 18, 2015, 9:59 am

        LOL, you caught me to it, Maxim.

        “Israelis have never indicated they want a strained violent relationship with Palestinian”

        So let’s say I come along and say that everyone here on this apartment block with my religion has been here for 2000 years and anyone of another religion has not, and now I am either going to kick out these loafers or gracriously give them second class status. nothing personal. I don’t want a strained relationship.

    • eljay
      March 18, 2015, 10:09 am

      || JeffBeee: The holocaust proved the need for a Jewish state … ||

      No it didn’t. The Holocaust proved the need for the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality. A religion-supremacist “Jewish State” represents none of those things.

      • Ellen
        March 19, 2015, 10:23 am

        JeffB, are you one of those people who believe the Zionist wanted Jewish victims of the Holocaust because it would be good for Zionism?

        Sounds like you are.

        Ugggh!

      • mikedobson
        March 19, 2015, 11:24 am

        Brilliant

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 6:04 pm

        “JeffB, are you one of those people who believe…”

        Ellen, as far as I can see, “JeffyB” is not a person who is at all impeded by what Emerson called “the hobgoblin of little minds”, foolish or otherwise. He’s mostly a big follower of Dr. Pangloss.

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 10:21 am

      “What they have indicated they want is an unquestionably Jewish state.”

      What does “unquestionably Jewish” mean or look like to you?

      Does Zionism = Jewish?

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 12:02 pm

        “Does Zionism = Jewish?”

        And this is where they start kvetching about “dictionary definitions” and “arrogant outsiders”.

        “What they have indicated they want is an unquestionably Jewish state.”

        And gee, why wouldn’t it suffer the exact same fate as every other “unquestionably Jewish state” in history?

      • JeffB
        March 18, 2015, 3:41 pm

        @Just

        What does “unquestionably Jewish” mean or look like to you?

        A state where Judaism has become a state religion and a state culture. Things that are already present like
        : bus stops having the time the 3rd star will be in the sky on Saturday
        : everyone casually asking if the meal is going to be milk or meat
        : sinks in restaurants are setup with a cup for saying the Jewish washing blessing not like Christian sinks

        It means that Israel is Jewish in the way that France is Catholic or America is Baptist. That the religion is so embedded in the culture that someone who hasn’t spent time in other cultures doesn’t even realize how much the state religion has infused their culture. Where all the other religions that exist in the state are just variants. American Judaism is a Jewish flavored Protestantism. In an unquestionably Jewish state if they exist the Islam and Christianity would just be Muslim or Christian flavored Judaism. It means that Judaism ceases to exist meaningfully as a global religion and goes back to just being “the Israeli religion”.

        Unquestionably Jewish means there is one people in the land. My hope is the descendants of the Jews who migrated and the descendants of the Palestinians have both merged into Israelis and there are (or few) pure Jews or pure Palestinians and those words seem antiquated. But of course there are alternatives. In short to use Heidegger’s term the dasein (or being-in-the-worldnes) of everyone both ) is Israeli and Jewish.

        The biological nonsense you all obsess over are hopefully soon dead issues.

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 6:11 pm

        “It means that Israel is Jewish in the way that France is Catholic or America is Baptist.”

        C’mon “JeffyB” this is out of line! I nearly choked with laughter when I read that. That’s an assault with a deadly dull weapon, to stick that in there like that! Do you have any idea how hilarious that sentence is?

        Yes, the French certainly love the heads of their Catholic Church, and as far as America being Baptist, are we talking hard- or soft-shell Baptist?

        :” sinks in restaurants are setup with a cup for saying the Jewish washing blessing not like Christian sinks”

        Okay, man, you fired a second shot aimed straight at my funnybone. I think that shows premeditation aforethought. “Christian sinks”? Well, that’s what some of the guys say, that Jewish plumbing is different. I wouldn’t know.

      • justicewillprevail
        March 19, 2015, 8:23 pm

        Yes, that made me laugh. Tens of thousands of people must die, their homes razed, their children imprisoned, segregated and denied any rights – all so Jeff can live out his cultural fantasy in a Jewish theme park with Jewish bus stops and Jewish plumbing. It’s not just Jewish kids that love getting high, then.

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 1:29 pm

        “: bus stops having the time the 3rd star will be in the sky on Saturday”

        See what I mean? If I laugh this hard, I may have a plotz, or syncope.
        Astrology, now that’s “unquestionably Jewish”.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      March 18, 2015, 10:47 am

      @wjjones

      I think what the jeffster is saying that, so long as Palestinians give everything they’ve ever had to Israel, and learn to cal them ‘sir’, then there really is no need for any unpleasantness.

      • W.Jones
        March 18, 2015, 1:48 pm

        Typical. Calling them sir probably isn’t enough. They are just second class citizens and should be treated as such without it being formally recognized, according to this thinking.

        Do you think JeffB falls into the class where criticizing Israeli policies is opposed as a rule?

        Hophmi and some others seem to.

        https://theshalomcenter.org/content/israel-hillel-idolatry-0

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 4:18 pm

        And, naturally, the tone, the tenor, and the rock-solid information in “JeffyB”s posts all bear irrefutable witness to the rightness of “JeffyB”s ordering of human value. I mean, who wouldn’t want such just, kind, boyish masters to have the upper hand?

        Taciturn, too, isn’t he?

      • Walid
        March 19, 2015, 3:48 pm

        W.Jones, Israelis really want only one thing from the Palestinians and it’s to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Everything else becomes detail. Netanyahu repeated this again tonight. With the recognition in his hand, Netanyahu could begin the systematic eliminating of Palestinians in Israel and it would wipe out the Palestinians’ claim of RoR.

      • Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 10:40 pm

        With the recognition in his hand, Netanyahu could begin the systematic eliminating of Palestinians in Israel and it would wipe out the Palestinians’ claim of RoR.

        Well he, and every other Israeli PM, have been doing that without any recognition in hand. I’m certain that the demand for recognition of Israel as “the State of the Jewish people” is deliberate racial incitement and would certainly be deployed to propagandize against RoR. But the right of refugees and prisoners to opt for repatriation is guaranteed against any such recognition, agreement, or renunciation by the rules of customary international law reflected in articles 6, 7, and 8 of the 4th Geneva Convention – not to mention Articles 52 and 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. Deportation or forcible transfer of an indigenous population is recognized as a crime against humanity. The prohibition of war crimes and crimes against humanity are black letter jus cogens international law. Palestine is a contracting state party to both of those treaties. So any final agreement that conflicts with their terms would be null and void from the outset. That’s why RoR has been described as an “inalienable right, i.e.:

        Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;

        — General Assembly resolution 3236 (XXIX). Question of Palestine http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/res/3236%20%28XXIX%29

        That’s also why the US and Israel want lots and lots of peace talks and have forever delayed any actual (and legally unenforceable) agreement.

      • just
        March 19, 2015, 11:11 pm

        Thanks, that is very helpful.

        Though Israel routinely ignores international laws, treaties, and conventions, they remain in place for their day of reckoning.

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 1:40 pm

        “Though Israel routinely ignores international laws, treaties, and conventions, they remain in place for their day of reckoning.”

        That is probably the cause of a lot of Zionist pre-truamatic stress.

    • Mikhael
      March 19, 2015, 12:30 am

      JeffB
      March 18, 2015, 9:24 amEast Jerusalem residents can apply for citizenship and once they get it can vote. That skin color things simply isn’t true. More importantly there is no skin color laws in Israel. This is a complex enough issue without fabricating stuff for effect.

      Not only are you correct that Arab residents who live in the part of Jerusalem that was formerly controlled by Jordan from 1949-1967 can apply for and obtain Israeli citizenship (and there has been an uptick in the number of them that have done so in recent years) http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/more-east-jerusalem-palestinians-seeking-israeli-citizenship-report-shows.premium-1.516906, even if they don’t do so, they can still vote and run for city council in Jerusalem’s municipal elections. (And of course, there are other Arabs from other parts of Israel who move to Jerusalem for professional and/or educational reasons who already hold Israeli citizenship and don’t need to apply for it –often they move to ring neighborhoods like East Talpiot or French Hill–I guess that makes them Israeli settlers in occupied Jerusalem.)And not only are there no “color” laws in Israel, what “color” does Phil think that Jerusalem’s Arabs have that make them look distinctly different from Jewish citizens of Israel? Much of Jerusalem’s Arabic-speaking Christian and Muslim population is white.

      • JeffB
        March 19, 2015, 9:04 am

        @Mikhael

        Of course. Mizrahi Jews and Palestinians are the same race. Color plays no role.

        I’d also agree, the whole concept of “settler” isIMHO racist crap. I find it remarkable that western BDSers can call for a unified state of all its citizens in one breath and in the very next breath uphold the concept that neighborhoods should have permanent racial codes where only people of the right race can buy housing. Just more of inherent contradiction between their anti-racism and the ferocious racism of the anti-colonial movement.

        The neighborhoods I grew up in went from Welsh to German to Irish to Italian / Jewish to Black to Hispanic. The neighborhood I’m living in now is becoming much less Jewish and much more South Asian. Those people weren’t settlers they are inhabitants. My parents weren’t Jewish settlers when they moved and the people moving into my neighborhood aren’t South Asian “settlers”.

        I find it terrible ironic to see people calling me racist while expressing their deep support for housing segregation.

      • Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 1:15 pm

        Not only are you correct that Arab residents who live in the part of Jerusalem that was formerly controlled by Jordan from 1949-1967 can apply for and obtain Israeli citizenship (and there has been an uptick in the number of them that have done so in recent years) link to haaretz.com … even if they don’t do so, they can still vote and run for city council in Jerusalem’s municipal elections. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/save-israel-now#comment-755170

        What a load of crap. Under international law, you can’t ever annex a territory without automatically granting the inhabitants citizenship – period. One tenth of the illegal settlers in the West Bank have dual US-Israeli citizenship, just as a multitude of Jews in Israel proper hold more than one passport. There’s no reason why the Jordanian or Palestinian inhabitants of East Jerusalem should have been treated any differently. You are citing an article that says there are no official numbers for the alleged applicants for Israeli citizenship. It frankly admits that at least two-thirds of them are not approved, which undercuts your specious argument. Here’s an article that does cite a number “Israel admits it revoked residency rights of a quarter million Palestinians” http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-admits-it-revoked-residency-rights-of-a-quarter-million-palestinians-1.435778 Naturally none of those unlawfully displaced persons are allowed to vote or run for municipal office.

      • Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 1:36 pm

        Of course. Mizrahi Jews and Palestinians are the same race. Color plays no role.

        Generations of Mizrahi Jews have spilled oceans of ink complaining about the fact that Ashkenazi Jews in Israel either discriminate against them or marginalize them socially, economically and politically on the basis of any ethnic characteristics they happen to share with their Arab neighbors, including the color of their skin. In any event, they (Mizrahi Jews and “Israeli Arabs”) aren’t treated equally under the law, since they are assigned to separate “nationalities” in the state population registry. Israel formally discriminates against its own citizens on the basis of their so-called nationality, not on the basis of their citizenship. FYI, that is considered a form of racial discrimination in accordance with the definition contained in Article 1 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CERD.aspx

      • Mikhael
        March 22, 2015, 7:42 am

        JeffB
        March 19, 2015, 9:04 am

        @Mikhael

        Of course. Mizrahi Jews and Palestinians are the same race. Color plays no role.

        Well, neither Mizrahi Jews nor Palestinian Arabs are a “race” unto themselves or part of another distinct race, whether the same or different. Palestinian Arabs and Mizrahi Jews alike are groups composed of individuals with a range of skin tones, and some people in both groups look indistinguishable from Ashkenazi Jews or Sefaradi Jews. Ashkenazi Jews, Mizrahi Jews and Sefaradi Jews are all related ethnic groups and part of the same national community. All three groups are in turn related to Palestinian Arab non-Jews. Whatever discrimination might exist in Israel against its Arab citizens or the Arabs in Jerusalem, none of it has anything to do with any skin color legislation.

      • Mikhael
        March 22, 2015, 9:00 am

        Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 1:15 pm

        What a load of crap. Under international law, you can’t ever annex a territory without automatically granting the inhabitants citizenship – period.

        Following Israel’s annexation of the part of Jerusalem that was controlled by Jordan from 1949-1967, it offered the Arab population legally residing there Israeli citizenship, however, most elected to remain Jordanian citizens while receiving permanent residency status in Israel, which granted them the right to live and work anywhere in Israel, social insurance pensions and health insurance as well. Even if they did not take advantage of their right to become Israeli citizens in 1967, they are still eligible to apply for and receive Israeli citizenship upon proving loyalty to the state. The number of former Jordanian citizen Arabs resident in the Israeli capital who choose to do so is steadily increasing. And whether or not your reading of international law says that Israel should have obligated these former Jordanian citizens to accept Israeli citizenship after applying Israeli law and de facto annexing the eastern neighborhoods of the Israeli capital, Phillip Weiss outright fibbed when he stated explicitly that the Arabs who live in East Jerusalem “cannot even vote because of the color of their skin,” not only ignoring the fact that many Arabs in Jerusalem are indeed Israeli citizen and can and do vote , but erroneously implying that that Arabs in general have some uniquely special skin color.

        One tenth of the illegal settlers in the West Bank have dual US-Israeli citizenship, just as a multitude of Jews in Israel proper hold more than one passport. There’s no reason why the Jordanian or Palestinian inhabitants of East Jerusalem should have been treated any differently. There’s no reason why the Jordanian or Palestinian inhabitants of East Jerusalem should have been treated any differently.

        There’s no Israeli law preventing Arabs in East Jerusalem or the rest of Israel from holding dual or multiple citizenship as far as I am aware. Just as many Jewish citizens of Israel hold dual Israeli/US/other citizenship, so can Arab citizens of Israel. During the period when Jordan and Israel were still in a state of war, it made sense to ban dual citizenship between Israel and an enemy state. Since there has been a formal peace treaty between Israel and Jordan for more than 20 years, I agree that there should be no problem with an Israeli citizen also holding Jordanian citizenship; however, I do not know what Jordanian law has to say about this. I do know for a fact that despite the peace treaty and formal diplomatic relations between Egypt and Israel, Egyptian law does not permit its citizens to retain their Egyptian passports if they are married to Israelis and obtain Israeli citizenship. Since the Egyptian-Israeli peace treaty, many Egyptians have married Israeli citizens (in most cases, these are Egyptian Muslims or Christians who marry Israeli Muslims or Christians) and they have had their Egyptian citizenship status revoked. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/egyptians-wedded-to-israelis-to-lose-citizenship/

        If a Jerusalem resident hold citizenship or is known to swear allegiance to the PA, an entity that lays claims to Jerusalem for itself, then there is definitely reason to refuse such a person the right to obtain Israeli citizenship.

        Here’s an article that does cite a number “Israel admits it revoked residency rights of a quarter million Palestinians” link to haaretz.com Naturally none of those unlawfully displaced persons are allowed to vote or run for municipal office.

        The article you linked to discusses Arab Jerusalemites who never took advantage of the option they had to become citizens of Israel and left the country for an extended period of time. As non-citizen permanent residents and in accordance with international standards, they run the risk of losing their residency rights. The same thing happens to green card holders in the USA (it happened to my father), if they leave the USA for more than a year (unlike Israel, which allows for 7 years before it deems permanent residents to have abandoned the country), they can be deemed to have abandoned the US and can be subject to having their permanent residency revoked. (Green card holders who are convicted of felonies also can lose their residency.) My late father lived and worked legally in the US for more than two decades, first as a postdoc researcher, then on a temporary work visa, and eventually he had a green card, but never became a naturalized US citizen. My family returned to Israel for a few years, but my father always had to make sure he spent some of the year in the US so as not to lose his green card. After he and my mother divorced, he returned to his native Jerusalem and didn’t come back to the US for 3 years and lost his US residency. He had to apply for a tourist visa to come back for my sister’s wedding, If he had applied for US citizenship (like my mother did) he could have gone back to Israel as a dual Israeli/US citizen and come back on his US passport. The Arab Jerusalemites who are permanent residents of Israel can avoid similar headache by exercising their rights to become Israelis and will be able to live abroad for many years without worrying about losing their residency status. Now many more are doing so. And the imaginary “Arab skin color” that Phil seems to think they have won’t prevent them.

      • Hostage
        March 22, 2015, 12:58 pm

        Following Israel’s annexation of the part of Jerusalem that was controlled by Jordan from 1949-1967, it offered the Arab population legally residing there Israeli citizenship, however, most elected to remain Jordanian citizens while receiving permanent residency status in Israel, which granted them the right to live and work anywhere in Israel, social insurance pensions and health insurance as well.

        What you are describing is illegal. If the annexation of East Jerusalem was unconditional, then the citizenship of the inhabitants of the territory should have been unconditional too. International law doesn’t permit you to revoke the right of the inhabitants to leave and return to their own country of origin – period.

        FYI, I’m aware of the fact that Israel was contemplating a number of illegal schemes to obtain Palestinian territory, without the inhabitants, if it could only figure out a plausible way to accomplish that goal. For example, forced population transfer into Egyptian territory. Your foreign minister shared that bit of information with the US State Department. He also admitted that Israel did not plan on granting the inhabitants of the West Bank citizenship, the vote, or a self-determination, but rather a economic plan that would permit Israelis to access and exploit the territory. Frankly what he was describing is an example of de facto annexation and the establishment of ethnic ghettos under a system of separate and unequal laws amounting to apartheid:

        In dinner conversation with me Sept 19 Eban outlined current Israeli policy flowing from internal debate during summer and recent series of cabinet meetings. Essential points he made are set out below. Rafael and Harman present on Israeli side, and Sisco, Buffum and Pedersen on US side. …

        Gaza territory was also security problem for Israel. Israel would like have the territory without the population but did not see how that could come about. He intimated there may even be an exchange of territory along the international frontier in favor of Egypt in return for Gaza Strip going to Israel. He thought Egypt might even be glad to be rid of Gaza Strip. Another possibility apparently under consideration was some form of international authority of Gaza Strip. (Eban noted this had been discussed in 1956 with US and that he had memcon with Dulles in his files about it.) …

        Re Jerusalem, the Holy Moslem quarter would create perpetual emotional religious problems as long as it under Israeli control. GOI therefore had in mind arrangement which would put it under Moslem control and sovereignty. Rest of city was now united, and Arab inhabitants were free to travel throughout Israel. There could be some arrangement which would insure free Jordanian access to and participation in economic life of city.

        West Bank presented particularly difficult problems. Incorporation of West Bank into Israel, with its large Arab population, would completely transform Israel’s national existence and reason for being. An Israeli demographic expert had estimated that at present rate of population growth this would produce an Arab majority in Israel within 15 years. In any case it would cause a total reshaping of Israeli politics, as Arab votes were sought, and thus produce alterations in structure of Israel that they did not desire. Neither could Arabs be incorporated into Israel without granting them Israeli citizenship. This would not be permitted by international community nor would it be acceptable to Israeli people themselves.

        Eban said they had also given thought to establishment of separate, autonomous Palestinian state on West Bank. This also has serious drawbacks. Days of autonomous dependent regions had really passed. Creation of Palestinian state might simply increase irredentist desires. There would be yet another Arab state on Arab scene. In a year or two it would ask for UN membership, and it would be admitted. Such prospects did not look attractive. On the other hand, now that Israelis for first time had opportunity to visit areas of historic significance to them, it would be difficult for their citizens to understand govt simply turning the area back. Sort of thinking they were therefore thinking of would include two elements: (a) demilitarization of West Bank, with a UN inspection system; and (b) some form of economic, customs or travel arrangements which would permit access to and larger cooperation with the area. He referred to possibility of a free port on Mediterranean for Jordan as a move in same direction. I believe he also had in mind some border adjustments for security purposes, as he referred to Israeli security psychosis resulting from fact entire population was in range of Arab guns but he was not precise about what they might be.

        http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v19/d442

        The article you linked to discusses Arab Jerusalemites who never took advantage of the option they had to become citizens of Israel and left the country for an extended period of time. As non-citizen permanent residents and in accordance with international standards, they run the risk of losing their residency rights.

        Nothing you described meets international standards. What you are discussing is a grave breach of both the content and intent of the Hague IV rules of 1907, and Articles 6 and 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention of 1949, and Article 85 of the 1st Additional Protocol i.e. a war crime. It is also a deliberate violation of the UN human rights treaties to which both Israel and Jordan were parties. The inhabitants of those countries have the right to leave and return to their own country of origin – period.

      • Hostage
        March 22, 2015, 2:17 pm

        The same thing happens to green card holders in the USA (it happened to my father), if they leave the USA for more than a year (unlike Israel, which allows for 7 years before it deems permanent residents to have abandoned the country), they can be deemed to have abandoned the US and can be subject to having their permanent residency revoked.

        Be careful, your racism is showing. You almost have to go back to the 18th century to find any legal support for the ideas you are espousing. For example, Israelis pretend that they “inherited laws” from the Ottomans, as if that is a valid excuse. On the other hand, Turkey has modern laws which permit things like civil marriages.
        In any event, I’ve always been fascinated by the many historical and modern day examples of Jews from the US, Poland, Russia, and elsewhere who compare the native Palestinians to “green card” holders. It’s not “as if” Palestinians are somehow comparable to tourists, students, or immigrants in their own damned country. They were, and still are, the lawful inhabitants or the indigenous population. I’m certain that the racists here in the US were infuriated when President Wilson and the Congress made the enemies of our own “Indian Wars” citizens of the US, instead of merely granting them permanent residency. In the end, it wasn’t respect for any of the treaties they had made with the Indian Nations that mattered. It was their ambiguous status under the Hague treaties that all of the American states had signed with the Europeans. It was more convenient, at the time, to treat indigenous peoples as domestic national minorities subject to our own apartheid-style legal system, ethnic enclaves, prohibitions against intermarriage, and etc. In time, it was grudging surrender to activists and UN positions on decolonization, human rights, and its codification of treaties on those subjects and the elimination of all forms of racism that finally led to liberalization of our own discriminatory laws. Nonetheless, Zionist invariably try to justify their own bad behavior by citing the wrongdoing of others, as if two wrongs make a right.

      • Mikhael
        March 22, 2015, 10:57 am

        Hostage
        March 19, 2015, 1:36 pm

        Generations of Mizrahi Jews have spilled oceans of ink complaining about the fact that Ashkenazi Jews in Israel either discriminate against them

        On the whole, in the Israel of 2015 Mizrahim tend to complain that Ashkenazim are too liberal towards the Arabs, but few regard themselves as victims of Ashkenazi discrimination today. The tensions that used to exist in Israel between Mizrahim and Ashkenazim have more to do with a veteran group that acquired powers guarding its privileges than outright “racism”. Indeed, traditionalist and religious Mizrahi and North African Jewish immigrants to Israel found themselves marginalized by the Ashkenazi-dominated, secular Labour establishment in the early years of if the state just as ultra-Orthodox Eastern European haredim who refused to give up their ways were as well. When the mass immigration of Mizrahi and North AFrican Jews was underway in the 1950s/1960s, Eastern European Ashkenazim (Polish, Russian) dominated the political and economic spheres , and Central European (Austrian, German, Czech, Hungarian) were the technocratic elite. They were the veteran groups and the Mizrahim/Sefaradim were the newcomers, the underdogs. But a century or two earlier, it was the opposite. IN the “Old Yishuv,” (pre-Zionist Jewish communities in Eretz Yisrael) Mizrahi and Sefaradi Jews, who were more veteran and better integrated into the Ottoman power structure discriminated against Ashkenazi haredim to a large extentl when the Ashkenazim first started arriving in large numbers in Jerusalem, Hebron, Sefad and Tiberias back in the 18th and 19th centuries. My Mizrahi and Sefaradi ancestors, who included rabbis and other communal leaders, certainly looked down upon the Ashkenazi hassidim and perushim and fought to get a bigger share of the halukka (disbursement of charitable donations from Jews living abroad) pie for the Sephardic community. With the advent of modern political Zionism, the veteran Mizrahim and Sefaradim quickly became part of the New Yishuv’s (pre-State Zionist community) power structure, although most Mizrahim tended to identify with Begin/Herut/Revisionists and further right. Post-independence, in contrast to the veteran Mizrahim/Sefaradim, new immigrant Mizrahim/Sefaradim were often excluded and looked down on — but so too were new immigrant Ashkenazim who were ultra-Orthodox and/or Holocaust survivors derided by native-born Israelis. My Ashkenazi relatives on my mother’s side who escaped Hungary were taunted and mocked and called sabonim (soaps) by native Israeli kids., Beginning with the election of Begin in 1977, East European Ashkenazi secular dominance of Israeli politics began to wane.

        on basis of any ethnic characteristics they happen to share with their Arab neighbors, including the color of their skin

        Like Phil, and perhaps even JeffB, you seem to incorrectly believe in the stereotype that dark skin is an essential characteristic for Mizrahi Jews and Arabs to have as opposed to Ashkenazi Jews. To be sure, most Mizrahi Jews tend to be of a swarthy complexion, but many of them can be lighter than Ashkenazi Jews. My father, who was of partial Syrian-Jewish heritage, was actually fairer-skinned than my Ashkenazi mother. Of course this does not mean that there are no bigoted Ashkneazim who have a negative attitude towards Mizrahim and Arabs because of a perception that they are darker and believe them to be inferior based on that, but there is also a history of white Arabs discriminating against black Arabs. This is not something that is unique to Israeli-Jewish society. That said, while anti-Mizrahi bigotry on the part of Ashkenazi elites (as well as lower-class Ashkenazim) in the 1950s-70s was once strong in Israel, its main impetus wasn’t color prejudice (although that may have been a factor for some) but the notion that the secular, socialist Zionist ethos was more advanced and progressive than the Oriental pietist traditions brought over by the new immigrants. They held the same attitude towards the Ashkenazi haredim who came from the same Eastern European cultural background and urged them to cast away their old identities too and become New Hebrew pioneers. Anti-Mizrahi bigotry persists most among the hard secular, Ashkenazi Left (people like you), one of whom disparaged Likud, with its heavily traditional and religious Mizrahi voter base, as the party of the “amulet kissers.” The other sector of the Israeli Jewish population where anti-Mizrahi/Sefaradi discrimination lingers is among some Ashkenazi haredim many of whom are also “amulet kissers”). In elite Ashkenazi haredi yeshiboth, there is a cap on the number of non-Ashkenazi rabbinical students. Among certain hassidic sects, a marriage match between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim/Sefaradim is deemed very unseemly and usually y occurs only when the Ashkenazi prospective spouse is considered “damaged goods” , for example, a widow(er) or a divorce(e) might be married off to a Mizrahi bride or groom when a “suitable” Ashkenazi match can’t be found, or maybe such unions are tolerated in haredi society when the Ashkenazi is a hozer be teshuvah ( newly Orthodox) but nobody from a “good” family enters into such a match. But among “normal” Israeli Jews Ashkenazim and Mizrahim are marrying at a rate approaching 50%. Whatever was is mostly a thing of the past that’s exaggerated by the Mondo militants. I wonder why.

        In any event, they (Mizrahi Jews and “Israeli Arabs”) aren’t treated equally under the law, since they are assigned to separate “nationalities” in the state population registry.

        Mizrahi Jews are not assigned a separate nationality from Ashkenazi Jews or any other kind of Jew in the Israeli population registry. “Jew” is the nationality– not “Ashkenazi”, “Mizrahi”, “Ethiopian” etc.

        Israel formally discriminates against its own citizens on the basis of their so-called nationality, not on the basis of their citizenship.

        Jews and Arabs belong to two separate and distinct nationalities, thus Israel recognizes said differences and records it in the population registry, just as other countries recognize ethnic minority groups. Nevertheless, there is not one right under Israeli law that is enjoyed only by Israeli citizens of Jewish nationality that is denied by law to Israeli citizens of Arab or other non-Jewish nationality.

        FYI, that is considered a form of racial discrimination in accordance with the definition contained in Article 1 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination link to ohchr.org

        You have failed to establish that Israel’s recording its citizens’ nationality as “Jewish” or “Arab” in the Population Registry is a “distinction … which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life” per the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

      • Hostage
        March 22, 2015, 8:32 pm

        Mikhael, I’m perfectly well aware of the fact that there have been fair skinned and dark skinned Jews living throughout the Middle East for centuries. The same thing can be said for the Palestinians, who were also part of the same multinational empire.

        I’ve commented about the fact that, in many cases, Jews from Palestine and other Arab lands were very zealous enemies of the other indigenous Palestinian ethnic groups. They aided and abetted in the pillaging of the country and the acts of terror committed against Palestinians.
        Zionist historian, Walter Laqueur, noted that “Among the Irgun and the Stern Gang there were many youngsters from the Oriental Jewish community, which was not widely represented in the non-terrorist Hagana.” See A history of terrorism, Transaction Publishers, 1977, page 122
        One area of the Hagana where they were over-represented was in the Palmach’s corps of assassins. Jewish undercover units, called “The Arabists of the Palmach” or Mista’arvim [literally, “Arab-pretenders”], are known to have been in operation in Palestine and neighboring Arab countries as early as 1942. —See Targeting To Kill: Israel’s Undercover Units, Elia Zureik and Anita Vitullo, The Palestine Human Rights Information Center (PHRIC)
        *link to thejerusalemfund.org
        *link to palmach.org.il
        and Zvika Dror, The ’Arabists’ of the Palmach (Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishing House, 1986)

        Whatever was is mostly a thing of the past that’s exaggerated by the Mondo militants. I wonder why.

        Because you only elect one Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, Interior Minister, or Minister of Industry, Trade and Labor at a time to represent a population of 7 million plus. Those ministers are all running around making public statements which claim that Arab citizens are a demographic threat; that Arab suspects should simply be killed instead of being brought to trial; that they should have their heads cutoff; that there really are such things as special “Jewish genes”; and bemoaning the fact that migrants do not recognize that Israel ‘belongs to the white man”. If those are only fringe or minority viewpoints, then I wonder why they are espoused by your very top state officials?

        You have failed to establish that Israel’s recording its citizens’ nationality as “Jewish” or “Arab” in the Population Registry is a “distinction … which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life” per the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

        In fact the CERD panel of experts, who are tasked with monitoring treaty compliance have repeatedly cited the government’s maintenance of separate Jewish and Arab sectors as a violation of the article 3 prohibition of apartheid or racial discrimination.

      • just
        March 22, 2015, 1:15 pm

        I’ve bookmarked this for future reference and distribution.

        (It’s so wonderful to be back in school!)

    • Annie Robbins
      March 19, 2015, 12:15 pm

      MSNBCs’ comment that Netanyahu was the new George Bush (43) I think is accurate. …… This election presents the new PM with a mandate.

      george bush stole 2 elections. that’s not a mandate it’s a rip off. i’ve read enough of your comments to know following your logic reminds me of carsickness on a curvy mountain road.

      Israelis have never indicated they want a strained violent relationship with Palestinians.

      !!! seriously jeff. take off the rose colored glasses.

    • RoHa
      March 20, 2015, 5:14 am

      ” Israel will be Jewish in the way that France is French”

      In what way is France French? It isn’t a citizen of France. It is full of French people, but they get their Frenchness from being citizens of France. Do you mean that France is French because it is full of French citizens?

      If we apply the same principle to Israel, we could say that Israel is Israeli because it is full of Israeli citizens. But being Jewish is not a matter of citizenship.

      • JeffB
        March 20, 2015, 5:30 pm

        @RoHa

        In what way is France French? It isn’t a citizen of France. It is full of French people, but they get their Frenchness from being citizens of France. Do you mean that France is French because it is full of French citizens?

        Good question. No I mean France is French because it is full of people who are nationally French.
        They speak the French language
        They all identify with French symbols: fleur-de-lis (a Frankish symbol), eiffel tower, the red and blue of the revolution (or the 3 estates), Napoleon, arc de triomphe…
        They eat: baguette, ficelle,flûte…
        Their religious identify is tied up in Catholicism including Catholic anti-clericalism. Even the French Jews and assimilated Muslims have inherited these compromises about religion based on a history that is not theirs.

        We are talking nations not states here. It isn’t about having a card saying they are French it is about being French.

      • Philemon
        March 20, 2015, 9:07 pm

        Jeff, you left out the cockerel and the joie de vivre.

        How is being culturally French versus a citizen of France different from being culturally Jewish versus a citizen of Israel? And how about all the Jewish people who decline to be Israeli? Now those are interesting questions you should ask yourself, JeffB.

        As you point out, many citizens of France might not be all that culturally French, but they have full legal rights. And sometimes they provide welcome variations in cuisine, as well.

      • Philemon
        March 20, 2015, 9:12 pm

        Being French, culturally, as I have understood it, is speaking French and maintaining enlightenment values, as in liberté, égalité, and fraternité. It is not a racial identity. There’s no inheritance, or birth, blood, nation, skin-color, religion or name involved.

      • RoHa
        March 21, 2015, 5:32 am

        “it is about being French – ”

        So being French involves speaking French, eating snails and frogs, wearing berets, drinking red wine and discussing existentialism in cafés, and so forth.

        (But, as you say, French Jews and assimilated Muslims do these things as well. That makes them French. So why do you say that French history is “not theirs”?)

        And what makes people “culturally French”? Being brought up in, and living in, France.

        And how many of those attributes does one need to have in order to qualify as French? One? Two? Twenty?

        In the same way, we could lay out series of attributes for someone to qualify as culturally Israeli, and argue that one becomes Israeli by being brought up in Israel. But just as one can be culturally French regardless of whether or not one is a Jew, so surely it is possible to be culturally Israeli regardless of whether or not one is a Jew.

        So we can still say “Israel is Israeli in the way France is French”.

        But where does the “Jewish” come in? Well, if you want to say that Israel culture, plumbing, etc, is influenced by Judaism and Jewish practices, no-one will dispute that. Nor would anyone dispute that French culture (and perhaps the plumbing) is influenced by Catholicism and Catholic practices.

        So if you want to say that Israel is Jewish in the way that France is Catholic, go ahead.

        But France does not call itself a “Catholic State”. On the contrary, it is a state of and for all its citizens, and that includes those who have never heard of Sartre, who only drink beer, and the children of my Japanese sister-in-law.

  11. Krauss
    March 18, 2015, 9:24 am

    By the way, the “liberal” Zionists have brought this onto themselves. Herzog could gather a coalition of parties but that would have to include Arabs.

    And neither he nor any other “liberal” Zionist is willing to sit with Arabs.

    So as long as they are not willing to do that, the Likudniks will win. That’s something no “liberal” Zionist Jewish journalist is willing to challenge so why do they complain?

    • Stephen Shenfield
      March 18, 2015, 10:40 am

      No coalition of parties that Herzog could gather could reach the 61 seats needed for a majority, even if the Joint List were included. Zionist Camp 24 + Meretz 4 + Yesh Atid 11 = 39. Adding the 14 seats of the Joint List brings that up to only 53. Where would the other 8 seats come from? Kahlon’s Kulanu will certainly not join such a coalition. So it would need BOTH the religious parties. That too is hard to imagine.

      • Krauss
        March 18, 2015, 11:16 am

        That’s my point Stephen. I’m not counting the liberal Zionists as only Labor. Kahlon may label himself centrist but he has been open to negotiation with the left, ditto Lapid.

        Yet both these centrists are against sitting with Arabs, even Labor, the supposed left.

        Remember Avishai, in the New Yorker, claiming that the Kulanu represents a new “cosmopolitan” Israel. Hogwash. As you said, they refuse to sit with Arabs, ditto Lapid.

        My original point stands, and I’ve had enough with “liberal” Zionists claiming they are shocked with the election results when they don’t protest the Jews-only political coalitions.

        The “liberal” Zionists and their preferred parties have brought this unto themselves.

  12. MRW
    March 18, 2015, 9:48 am

    Who can save Israel now?

    Not you. Not any of us.

    You’re finished, Phil.

    You should have listened to those us who tried you the truth many months ago.

    • Mooser
      March 18, 2015, 12:09 pm

      “You’re finished, Phil.”

      You must be momentarily discouraged. It will pass. I say “you ain’t heard nothin’ yet!” from Phil.

      • W.Jones
        March 18, 2015, 1:45 pm

        Mooser,

        What is MRW referring to here: “You should have listened to those us who tried you the truth many months ago.”

        Does he mean that Phil was predicting Netanyahu would lose and now Phil is finished as no longer credible because Net. won?

        I feel like I find Phil’s reporting credible, just his predictions as too optimistic often.

      • Chu
        March 19, 2015, 12:49 pm

        I think he refers to Phil’s attempt to shine a light on Israel and get it to change,
        but it can’t be changed any longer. They’ve reached the point of no return. lol
        Sad, what a waste to have went full-bore cult on the world.
        Today Israel’s ziocane is 99.9% pure

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 6:37 pm

        “What is MRW referring to here”

        I’m sure I don’t know, it was addressed to PW. Just seems disgusted by events, and who wouldn’t be?

  13. lonely rico
    March 18, 2015, 9:53 am

    … how Zionism ended, when Netanyahu exposed it.

    Israeli Democracy/Liberal Zionism have their oxymoronic moment.

  14. NickJOCW
    March 18, 2015, 10:01 am

    Phil hits the nail, this does indeed show the world exactly what Israelis have become. Strange they should demonstrate it so unequivocally when others have lost their livelihoods and more for even hinting at it. For years the truth was obfuscated, now the mask has dropped overnight, just like that. Well, he has earned himself another term, but at what a price, talk about cutting off a nose to spite a face. In a way it’s a sad outcome but at least the decks have been cleared, Netanyahu’s credibility as a participant on the world stage has vanished, and if Western relations can normalize with Iran the whole thing may even work out to have been for the best.

  15. just
    March 18, 2015, 10:13 am

    Chris Hayes: “….. What does it mean for an Israeli government to now have this man who said all these things in the past month run the government?

    Jonathan Alter: It’s really a problem for him and for Israel, because the BDS movement — boycotts, disinvestments, sanctions — is gathering a lot of strength in Europe. There are even some indications in the United States, those who have been supporters of Israel, that the long-term policy of the United States vetoing any resolution in the Security Council at the United Nations that is favorable to the Palestinians, those days might be moving into the past.

    If that happens, then this election will be seen as a huge reckoning, a huge problem for Israel, and really isolating them in the world in ways that they have not been before. So the stakes are quite high. Of course they’re high for the United States as well, as it relates to the Iran deal and all sorts of other issues. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/video/1.647597?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    ~and~

    “Reuters – “There is no difference between Israeli political parties following the electoral victory of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party,” Marizeh Afkham, Iran’s foreign ministry spokeswoman, was quoted as saying by semi-official Mehr News Agency on Wednesday.

    “For us, there is no difference between the Zionist regime’s political parties. They are all aggressors in nature,” Afkham told reporters at a weekly news conference in Tehran.

    U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry declined to comment on the Israel election… ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-election-2015/1.647589?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

  16. a blah chick
    March 18, 2015, 10:18 am

    Phil, it takes a big man these days to admit he was wrong. God love ya.

    I have been rather dubious about just how close to a “turning point” we are but now, for the first time I actually think things are starting to change. And you know what will help? The “new” Israeli government.

    Already there is speculation about who’ll get what portfolio. Imagine Miri “Africans are like cancer” Regev in education or Ayelet “Arabs are little snakes” Shaked as head of interior. And why not Bennett as the new Foreign Minister.

    Fearless prediction: the next year or two will be even more racist, violent and blood soaked than any that have gone before.

    • Bornajoo
      March 18, 2015, 3:54 pm

      “Phil, it takes a big man these days to admit he was wrong. God love ya.”

      Please allow me to ditto that abc!

      Also from a personal point of view I much prefer that Phil was disappointed now rather in 3 or 4 years when the bitter disappointment of the Herzog government would have been an even harder pill to swallow. I believe that herzog and livni would have created an even greater level of anti climax and disillusionment

  17. Peter Feld
    March 18, 2015, 10:28 am

    “This is devastating for the peace process.” Good. The peace process has been devastating for Palestine. Now there will be a rights process.

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 10:30 am

      +10!

      • Bornajoo
        March 18, 2015, 12:47 pm

        +another 10!

    • Ellen
      March 19, 2015, 10:32 am

      This is devastating for the peace process,” a crestfallen Yaniv told me at the Zionist Camp party …”

      The “peace process” charade is finally over! We can all stop pretending now!!

      Meanwhile paid off stooges in the US Congress in both parties are telling Obama to make nice nice with Benny and that he didn’t really mean all those ugly things he said in the heat of the campaign . It was all just a joke, kinda’ .

      He did and does mean it and this is what got him elected. He has a mandate from the Israeli population to rid Israel of non-Jewish Arabs. That is the consequence of no peace process.

      He must create another war to achieve this, and for the love of Zionism, by golly, he’ll do it.

      And Congress might go right along with it. It will be a disaster for all.

      PS, I had no doubt he would win by a clear majority.

  18. Sycamores
    March 18, 2015, 10:30 am

    MJ Rosenberg, a liberal Zionist, said that Blumenthal had caricatured the Israeli public by quoting a few yokels.

    it took a while but i think MJ gets it.

    Netanyahu deserves the Israeli people, and they deserve him

    Mj tweets the header of Gideon Levy piece in the Haaretz

    Netanyahu deserves the Israeli people and they deserve him. The results are indicative of the direction the country is headed: A significant proportion of Israelis has finally grown detached from reality. This is the result of years’ worth of brainwashing and incitement. These Israelis voted for the man who will lead the United States to adopt harsh measures against Israel, for the man whom the world long ago grew sick of. They voted for the man who admitted to having duped half the world during his Bar-Ilan speech; now he has torn off his mask and disavowed those words once and for all. Israel said “yes” to the man who said “no” to a Palestinian state. Dear Likud voters, what the hell do you say “yes” to? Another 50 years of occupation and ostracism? Do you really believe in that?

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.647555

    • seafoid
      March 18, 2015, 10:51 am

      The Palestinian citizens of Israel do not deserve a sociopath like Netanyahu.
      Jewish Israeli society is sick. Palestinian society is not.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 12:16 pm

        If only the Israelis had a conscience…

        (“The Weaker Soldier” is another song in my library of pain… thanks for bringing it here)

      • seafoid
        March 18, 2015, 1:09 pm

        Will Oldham is a genius , imo
        What else have you got in the library ?

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 1:19 pm

        Oooh, lots.

        Much that was introduced by your own self, seafoid! I’m always looking for more. It’s funny, but I cannot listen to radio as it exists today… it’s more noise to me than anything. I find things here that I so appreciate and treasure. The internet has made it possible to find the international music that used to be just a teensy section in the otherwise voluminous stacks of mainstream fare. I’m nearly as grateful for that as I am for the access to real news/alternative opinions available via the internet.

    • seafoid
      March 18, 2015, 12:17 pm

      Bibi knows his sick people. We saw it last summer already

      http://www.haaretz.com/misc/iphone-article/.premium-1.599667

      “but what is happening in the meantime in distant Israel is far from its “finest hour;” this is one of Israel’s ugliest hours. All the seeds of ultra-nationalism and messianism that have been planted over the past several years are germinating now and blooming in the flower beds of rot. All of the Israeli hatreds have reared their heads in the wake of the kidnapping of three yeshiva students whose place of learning is in the heart of the occupied territory. All of the destructiveness and the intolerance for other views, all of the unity and the falling into rank in Israel have now assembled for the biggest display of ultra-nationalism ever. All the seeds of religiosity have sprouted into a mass prayer service led by the television broadcasters, every single last one of which has volunteered for propaganda duty. ”

      There is no turning back for Israel

      • Mooser
        March 18, 2015, 6:59 pm

        “All of the Israeli hatreds have reared their heads in the wake of the kidnapping of three yeshiva students whose place of learning is in the heart of the occupied territory.”

        Yes, that is when I date it from, too. That’s when ‘something snapped’, the last line mooring them to reality.
        And the pre-traumatic stress began to kick in, bad.

      • seafoid
        March 19, 2015, 5:04 am

        It think it’s clear that the dysfunction is accelerating, Mooser. It becomes harder and harder to put the words “Jewish” and “democracy” together.
        The Israeli right is insane and the secular sabra Jews can’t or won’t stop the process.

        “One has to bear in mind that Israelis live in a largely mythic world, a somewhat modified and vastly simplified version of the Iliad. In this starkly polarized vision of reality, in which Israelis are by definition innocent victims of dark, irrational forces operating against them, heroic death in war always makes sense, and violent coercion is the option both of necessity and of choice”

        They just can’t bring that into line with reality.

      • lysias
        March 19, 2015, 11:26 am

        One has to bear in mind that Israelis live in a largely mythic world, a somewhat modified and vastly simplified version of the Iliad.

        Most unfair to the Iliad, which I studied in Greek in high school, and which had and continues to have a great effect on my thinking, both during my time in the military and ever since. What it teaches — you have to read the final books to see this — is that war ought to be fought within limits, with rules. It basically says the same thing about life as a whole. And it says it with incredible poetic force. (You have to read it in Greek to feel the poetry.)

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 9:05 pm

        “What it teaches — you have to read the final books to see this — is that war ought to be fought within limits, with rules.”

        I agree, absolutely, and the first rule should be NO KILLING OR SERIOUS INJURIES ALLOWED!!
        That’s the only one I’m really inflexible about. What time we start, when the breaks are, whether we fight on Sunday, I’m flexible on all that.

  19. seafoid
    March 18, 2015, 10:35 am

    “This is how Zionism ends”

    Not before an orgy of blood. Zionism is going to be worse as a cornered dog. Masada is more like how it will end

    Shalom

    • lysias
      March 18, 2015, 10:37 am

      And Zionism is a cornered dog with hundreds of nukes. Scary.

      • Ellen
        March 19, 2015, 10:41 am

        Hundreds of Nukes and a completely unhinged “leader” with hair dyed blue.

        When will the world deal with Israel’s nuclear threat?

        BTW, Israel doesn’t matter anymore to US security. It has few resources, protects nothing and is a drag on the US, financially and politically. The bill has become too high to protect Zionism and dreams of the Rapture. The gig will soon be over.

  20. lysias
    March 18, 2015, 10:36 am

    EU statement congratulating Netanyahu:

    Yesterday, the Israeli people voted in general elections. I congratulate Benyamin Netanyahu for his victory. I look forward to the formation of a new government.

    The EU is committed to working with the incoming Israeli government on a mutually beneficial relationship as well as on the re-launch of the peace process.

    We are at a crucial moment, with many threats all over the Middle East. The EU staunchly supports a peaceful resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, in the interest of the Israeli people, of the Palestinian people and of the whole region. We are at your side, you can count on us.

    More than ever, bold leadership is required from all to reach a comprehensive, stable and viable settlement of a conflict that has already deprived too many generations of peace and security. It’s time to turn this page and I’m confident that we can work together with the international community for a solution that will guarantee peace and security in the Middle East.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      March 18, 2015, 12:04 pm

      Sick, isn’t it? Not even Obama would congratulate Bibi personally, but the EU is telling this criminal to ‘count on us’.

      • Pixel
        March 18, 2015, 8:09 pm

        @MDM

        Dig deep enough into the EU and it will make perfect sense.

        Everything is connected.
        Everything is hiding in plain sight.

  21. marc b.
    March 18, 2015, 10:44 am

    Yesterday I wrote a piece predicting that the election in Israel would be hugely clarifying for Americans .

    and so it was.

  22. Laurent Weppe
    March 18, 2015, 10:44 am

    But a friend who was with her jumped in to justify the comment. “We are right to be afraid.”

    The beneficiaries of oppressive regimes will always fear to be slaughtered by the downtrodden, and, unless forced otherwise, will always double down on authoritarian policies in the hope these will successfully browbeat the plebs into submission, ironically turning their dread into self-fulfilling prophecies.

  23. seafoid
    March 18, 2015, 10:46 am

    Get Gurvitz on the case, Phil
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA1Fhtp-3eY

    Akiva Orr RIP would not be surprised
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoiiZ6K-26E

    Decent Jews have to seize control of the clown car but to do that they’ll have to eliminate so many sons of bitches

  24. Nevada Ned
    March 18, 2015, 10:58 am

    Some time ago, Rashid Khalidi wrote that Israel has so much power that it can’t be stopped. But Israel cannot longer disguise its actions. That’s what is changed.

    Thanks to Netanyahu for saying bluntly that he is opposed to a Palestinian state. In that sense he’s an honest racist.

  25. concernedhuman
    March 18, 2015, 11:04 am

    Who can save Israel now?
    No one except israel it self. Israel is at a point of no return, majority of them vote for continuing occupation.

    But the question to be asked is who can save millions of palestinains living under israel’s military occupation. US, EU,UN nor AL can do any thing.

  26. David Doppler
    March 18, 2015, 11:04 am

    So I have yet to see confirmation from Moshe Kahlon that he will throw his support to Netanyahu. Instead, I saw that Likud was fined for broadcasting at the last minute 2-year-
    old statements by Kahlon urging Israelis to vote Likud. http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-election-2015/.premium-1.647419

    Latest I’ve seen says Kahlon’s still mum: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/18/world/middleeast/breakaway-party-leader-moshe-kahlon-stays-mum-on-where-hell-throw-support-in-israeli-elections.html?_r=0

    ZU 24 + YA 11 + Joint List 14 + Meretz 4 = 53, and Kulanu’s 10 would make 63.

    Yair Lapid said 2 days ago, “the Netanyahu era is coming to an end.” Will he now be Netanyahu’s kingmaker?

    Netanyahu is fast celebrating victory and “seeking to establish facts on the ground” (sound familiar), but L 30 + JH 8 + Shas 7 + YB 6 + UTJ 6 = 57. Likud cannot win without Kulanu or someone else. My guess is they’re offering Kahlon Finance Minister while telling him they’ve already cut a deal with YA, when in fact that isn’t true.

    YA and Moshe Kahlon both used to be in Netanyahu’s coalition, and both either left or were thrown out. Until one of the other announces, the process isn’t over.

    By the way, Likud’s victory is 25% of the voters. He behaves as if it is a landslide.

    This hunt ain’t over till the big dogs howl. Moshe Kahlon, Yair Lapid, which way forward?

    • Doom Pony
      March 18, 2015, 1:01 pm

      Joint List ought to try to sabotage everything in order to make sure the victim count is low! The ZU and the Meretz need to tread carefully… This maybe the last days for Israel.. I have talked to a number of Israelis who support the one-state solution in a form. They wish to adsorb (although “carefully”) the Palestinian population into the Zionist state. These people may have numbers… We should start working with them if it looks like there is no hope to remove the settlements.

    • Bornajoo
      March 18, 2015, 1:16 pm

      Good point David. I can imagine the huge pressure Khalon just might be under right now possibly from Rivlin and others and possibly from the USA (through unofficial channels) NOT to join Netanyahu because this really is a major tipping point which will have serious consequences if Netanyahu is allowed to form a right wing government.

      They are no doubt aware that Netanyahu is leading them to the point of no return and that is what I’m hoping he does! But I also suspect that there are major forces in play to stop this happening because of the danger to the relationship with the USA which is everything to Israel. So right now I have my doubts that Netanyahu will get what he wants, but I hope that he does. I know we differ on our preferred outcomes.

      It’s all down to Khalon

  27. David Doppler
    March 18, 2015, 11:16 am

    I predict that Netanyahu’s “victory” in the election, will soon resemble his “triumph” in Congress. Painful, up-close-and-personal megalomaniacal self-congratulation, shared by the racists and those naive enough to believe his lies, followed by the painful reality that he’s still Bibi, he’s still trying to follow the failed trajectory, nothing he says is true or worth listening to, and a growing group of realists are going to have to start mopping up.

  28. David Doppler
    March 18, 2015, 11:23 am

    And the press’s treatment of 25% of the vote as “a majority,” or anything other than the one in four plurality it is, ought to be prosecuted for journalistic malpractice.

    • seafoid
      March 18, 2015, 11:36 am

      More like one in 6 considering all the disenfranchised Palestinians

      • lysias
        March 18, 2015, 12:05 pm

        But it’s not just 25%. When you include the other right-wing parties, it is a majority.

      • David Doppler
        March 18, 2015, 1:52 pm

        When you include all the right wing parties, excluding Kulanu, it’s less than 50%. Kulanu remains the big dog.

  29. seafoid
    March 18, 2015, 11:48 am

    Music for the Likud party

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF6N2OKo8rk

    Umadunya khaalis

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 12:06 pm

      The End~ what I’ve been thinking, seafoid.

      Shaaban Abdel Rahim’s (Shaban Abd El Rehem, Sha’bola) song may be reinvigorated today.

      • seafoid
        March 18, 2015, 12:10 pm

        http://mjrosenberg.net/2015/03/18/ive-had-it-with-israel/

        I’ve Had It With Israel

        “The polls were wrong.
        The election was decisive. A clear Netanyahu victory, fueled by a racist campaign–including race baiting President Obama by labeling him “Hussein Obama”–and Netanyahu’s pledge that there will never be a Palestinian state.

        The only good news was that the combined Arab List did well (13 seats), a show of Palestinian electoral power that bodes well for the future although exercising that power in a government that is decidedly racist and rightist will be near impossible.

        No, I correct myself. That was not the only good news. Perhaps even more significant is that given the Obama administration’s contempt for Netanyahu, it is likely that the U.S.-Israel confrontation will continue, over Iran and, now with the unambiguous rejection of two states, over the occupation.

        This is good news because it is now clear that confronting Israel, essentially ending the special relationship and treating Israel like any other moderately friendly country, is the only way to save Israel from apartheid and fascism, and the Palestinians from Israel.

        Unfortunately, there is no assurance that the Obama administration won’t flinch. With Congress firmly dominated by AIPAC, with candidates from both parties dependent on AIPAC-directed campaign contributions and with the GOP openly professing more loyalty to Netanyahu than to America, we could well see the United States working to get back in Israel’s good graces rather than the other way around. That is certainly what Hillary Clinton is hoping for.

        What we have to hope for is that President Obama stands firm, that he achieves the agreement with Iran and then goes on to quietly (or loudly!) slow down the delivery of US aid, reduce strategic cooperation and use every lever in his power to tell the Israeli people that they cannot take our money and UN vetoes and spit in or face at the same time. Now that Netanyahu has ruled out a Palestinian state, we must stop using our veto to block it. Also, we should start talking to all Palestinian factions, including Hamas.

        Why not? We are now free of the illusion that Israel will reform itself. The good Israelis can’t do it alone. They are dependent on U.S. pressure which we need to finally start using. As for the Palestinians no reason to trust us although, even if we refuse to be honest brokers, our pressure on Israel can only benefit them.

        But that all requires the U.S. government breaking free of the AIPAC stranglehold. And that is hard to imagine although–given that its position on Iran exposes it not just as the “Israel lobby” but as the “loyal to Israel, not America” lobby, it is vulnerable. Younger Jews and Democrats in general (not elected officials but voters) have already turned away from Israel. This election will accelerate the process that will leave old Jews, crazy Christian rightists, and the Orthodox as Israel’s support base in America. Israel’s days as a consensus issue are over. And not just on campus.

        As for individuals, we can’t do much although the BDS movement provides some leverage.

        Mainly, however, it’s up to Obama. He needs to stand tough, along with our EU allies, and let Israelis feel their isolation.

        Whether they in fact feel it or not, we can turn this situation around on our own. After all, we hold Israel’s mortgage. The banker can always decide what to do when the mortgage isn’t being paid. The threat of foreclosure does wonders.
        Use it. “

    • lysias
      March 18, 2015, 12:10 pm

      Wotan and Erda sing about “das Ende” in Wagner’s Ring Cycle.

      • seafoid
        March 18, 2015, 12:24 pm

        http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1c5f1352-79d5-11e2-9015-00144feabdc0.html

        “I recalled a conversation in 1991 with Professor Stanley Cohen, the eminent sociologist who died last month. We were discussing IDF human rights abuses, which Cohen worked tirelessly to expose. He turned to talk instead about his profound concern for young Israelis, specifically the brutalising effect that militarisation was having, and would have, on successive generations of young men and women. At the time his concerns seemed misdirected; on reflection what struck me was their prophetic accuracy.”

  30. OyVey00
    March 18, 2015, 11:56 am

    Why would Israel need to be saved?

    They currently enjoy unconditional bipartisan support from the US, their economy is going strong, their birthrate is phenomenal for a 1st world country (over 3 children per Jewish woman, which means they won’t get outbred by the Palestinians anytime soon) and they have a charismatic leader who works in the interest of the Jewish majority.

    Compared to the rest of the West, whose economies are stagnating, face demographic disasters and whose leaders work for anyone’s interests but those of the majority, Israel is pretty much as healthy as it could possibly be.

    No, it’s certainly not Israel that has to be saved. It’s the Palestinians.

    • ckg
      March 18, 2015, 2:01 pm

      …over 3 children per Jewish woman, which means they won’t get outbred by the Palestinians anytime soon

      Thank you for your candor. It’s revealing.

      • amigo
        March 18, 2015, 4:14 pm

        ckg,

        + 1.

    • Mooser
      March 18, 2015, 4:25 pm

      You have a very strange view of Israel “OyVey00”. Sounds like you admire them quite a bit.
      You really think “they have a charismatic leader who works in the interest of the Jewish majority.”

      So you think Israel works in the interest of “the Jewish majority”

      I’ll leave alone your pathetic Tea-party description of “the rest of the West” and their “demographic disasters”

      • OyVey00
        March 18, 2015, 7:26 pm

        Rather than admiring them, it’s more like I utterly detest the corrupt political caste of today’s Western nations who have sacrificed their peoples’ national interests on the altar of big business and free trade. Compared to them Netanyahu doesn’t seem so bad. At least if you’re a Jewish Israeli.

        And yeah, he does work in the interest of Israeli Jews. Sharing power with a potential enemy is seldom a good idea. Just ask the Boers, or what’s left of them today. As long as Netanyahu is in office, he won’t share even a single straw with the Palestinians. Sucks for them, but good for the Jews.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 7:51 pm

        “As long as Netanyahu is in office, he won’t share even a single straw with the Palestinians. Sucks for them, but good for the Jews.”

        A benighted and terribly blind comment.

        What part of your p.o.v. did you learn in your Jewish education? I must have missed the ugly part in my education. I was always taught that a large component of Jewish life and law was kindness.

        Something about loving your neighbor as yourself…

        Funny that the JAL is more representative of the the ‘good’ than any of the Zionist parties, isn’t it?

      • OyVey00
        March 19, 2015, 10:02 am

        @just

        I’m neither a Jew, nor did I wrote that I endorse those policies. Rather I’m trying to illustrate that (contrary to what many people here seem to think) what’s good for the Palestinians doesn’t have to be good for the Jews.

        It’s simply a conflict of interest.

      • just
        March 19, 2015, 10:32 am

        It goes far beyond “a conflict of interest”.

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 9:09 pm

        “I’m neither a Jew,”

        Are you sure? You don’t think you should leave the possibility open? You never know ‘who’s in the kitchen with DiNA’, as the song says.

      • ckg
        March 19, 2015, 10:19 pm

        @just: in the past OyVeh00 has told Mooser “the anti-jewish sentiment in my posts should’ve literally slapped you in the face by now.” (I am not sure if that particular remark is recoverable. He complains a lot about how his remarks are censored here. I can’t imagine why.)

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 10:37 pm

        “it’s more like I utterly detest the corrupt political caste of today’s Western nations who have sacrificed their peoples’ national interests on the altar of big business and free trade.”

        Oh, I see, you’re a socialist! A Leftist! That’s cool.

      • OyVey00
        March 20, 2015, 10:22 am

        @Mooser

        Well, at least my parents and grandparents are not. So even if I had some Jewish ancestors, I fear I wouldn’t be kosher enough to apply for Israeli citizenship.

      • OyVey00
        March 20, 2015, 10:52 am

        @Mooser

        Oh, I see, you’re a socialist! A Leftist! That’s cool.

        I used to identify with the Left until I realized that the vast majority of them are hardcore materialists.

        Like the Old Left and their communist utopia, where lack of freedom and individuality wasn’t supposed to be a problem due to the Marxist dogma that reaping the fruit of one’s labor was all that’s required to achieve happiness.

        Or the New Left and their liberal deconstructionism, with their belief that traditional Western culture and civilization is the epitome of evil and that man can only be free once all those pesky social constructs like common morals, nations, families, human races and gender roles have been abolished and man can finally act like the animal he is. This notion that man is an animal who’ll be happy as long as you throw money, games and porn at him, is pretty much the underlying principle of our modern consumerist society.

        No thanks, neither of those alternatives are appealing to me.

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 1:50 pm

        “No thanks, neither of those alternatives are appealing to me.”

        Ah, “OyVey00”, I beg from you a thousand pardons for my insinuations, from which you took inferences. But the truth is, I simply could not conceive of a man made of such sterling stuff, who could so rise above the material veil, and penetrate to the true inner recesses of life, where (as a Hollywood cardiologist once warned an aging director of pulmonary edema) “Abscess makes the heart grow, Fonda!”
        I see now you are an adherent of the Golden Mean, a man who sees past this world’s illusions, and grasps the nettle of Truth, be there ever so many worms i’ the bud. All that, and none of those silly incest taboo’s, either.

      • OyVey00
        March 21, 2015, 4:28 pm

        Why yes, thank you Mooser. You Sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. /drops hat

  31. kalithea
    March 18, 2015, 12:13 pm

    This is Israel

    You mean you just discovered it? Ha-ha-ha! There’s so much to love in this article and it took an openly, racist election outcome like this to inspire this kind of reality-based, truthful passion. I’m going to reread it — I’m ecstatic. This is promising!

    Please pardon my necessary comment to your pre-election results article and this pun at your expense: I’m so glad to see you’re back from your overnight stint in Disneyland and have landed straight inside the black heart of Zionist-occupied territory! If it took that nitwit Netanyahu to bring you back down to earth – then I’ll toast something bitter to his victory.

    Hey you Liberal Zionists: eat these shorts! You can fool some of the people sometime but you don’t fool all of us. Yes, you’re all — Jim Crow!

    The jig is up. I have a good feeling, there are some Liberal Zionists out there who just grew some integrity and a conscience and are ready to leave the dark side. Let’s be forgiving and open our arms to them. I can’t wait for the floodgates to open! Uh-oh, now I need to come back to earth – (sigh!) Zionism is a hard fix to lose but…maybe not impossible.

  32. just
    March 18, 2015, 12:59 pm

    Ali Abunimah: “Why I’m relieved Netanyahu won’ includes this nugget.

    “In short, Netanyahu’s re-election is like the “Nutrition Facts” label on a box of junk food: it tells you about the toxic ingredients inside.”

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/why-im-relieved-netanyahu-won

  33. sawah
    March 18, 2015, 1:04 pm

    Why do people use the word liberal in front of the word zionist?

    Can you be a liberal racist? I don’t get it.

    • OyVey00
      March 18, 2015, 1:10 pm

      If you use liberal meaning “liberal” and not “cultural marxist”, then certainly.

      Before the 60s pretty much all liberals were racist.

    • eljay
      March 18, 2015, 1:33 pm

      || sawah: Why do people use the word liberal in front of the word zionist? Can you be a liberal racist? I don’t get it. ||

      Unlike hard-core Zio-supremacists, “Liberal Zionists” are “kinder, gentler” supremacists.

      They still believe in Jewish supremacism in a supremacist “Jewish State”, but they make a point of say heart-warming stuff like:

      “I cannot consistently say that ‘ethnic cleansing is never necessary’.”

      ” … I feel that the nakba was a necessary wrong … ”

      “If I was an adult in 1948, I probably would have supported whatever it took to create the state of Israel, and held my nose at actions that I could not possibly do myself.”

      “The nakba that occurred in 1948 was accompanied by the independence, the liberation, of the Jewish community. So, I primarily celebrate … “

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 1:53 pm

      It’s always been an oxymoron to me…

  34. hophmi
    March 18, 2015, 1:05 pm

    You know what the nice thing about a stable democracy is? There will be other elections, and no one election is defining.

    The notion that because Netanyahu made a racist appeal at the last minute and won means that Israeli Jews as a whole voted for the racist appeal is self-serving and silly. The plea was to co-opt hard right voters who were set to vote for other parties. The reality is that Netanyahu, who presides over a significantly more moderate Likud than he did two years ago, and Lieberman, and Bennett make up about a third of the Knesset. Yachad, a Kahanist party, didn’t pass the threshold. The rest of Israel voted for centrist and left-wing parties who emphasized social issues, ultra-orthodox parties that focus on funding for the their schools and welfare, or the Joint List.

    Liberal Zionists will grieve over the election, and then regroup and do what people do in functioning democracies – find a way to win.

    • kalithea
      March 18, 2015, 1:26 pm

      Anyway you paint it; it’s still lipstick on a pig. Unfortunately for us; you’ll keep at it.

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 1:55 pm

      “The notion that because Netanyahu made a racist appeal at the last minute and won means that Israeli Jews as a whole voted for the racist appeal is self-serving and silly. The plea was to co-opt hard right voters who were set to vote for other parties.”

      Nothing ‘self- serving’ nor ‘silly’ about it.

      “The plea was to co-opt hard right voters who were set to vote for other parties.””

      Then your fellow Israelis are as sick and racist as your PM. A big clue was the 95% who cheered the massacre last summer. The other was the segment of Israelis, including “leaders”, who didn’t think enough innocents were massacred nor enough destruction wrought.

      That’s all.

      “Liberal Zionists will grieve over the election, and then regroup and do what people do in functioning democracies – find a way to win”

      You don’t have a ‘democracy’~ “functioning”, “stable”, or otherwise.

      • hophmi
        March 18, 2015, 2:45 pm

        “A big clue was the 95% who cheered the massacre last summer.”

        The only thing it means is that when your population is being attacked by rockets, you’ll favor your government doing what it can to stop the rocket attacks. If you don’t understand, buy some rockets, give them to your enemy, and have him fire the rockets at your house for a few weeks.

      • Hostage
        March 18, 2015, 8:51 pm

        If you don’t understand, buy some rockets, give them to your enemy, and have him fire the rockets at your house for a few weeks.

        Or better still, get the US government to establish a $1 billion dollar stockpile of weapons in country for your use and help yourself to a couple of million rounds of 120mm mortar ammo each time you get a hair up your ass and decide to attack the entire population of the Gaza strip.

      • eljay
        March 19, 2015, 8:36 am

        || hophmeee: If you don’t understand, buy some rockets, give them to your enemy, and have him fire the rockets at your house for a few weeks. ||

        And whatever you do, avoid any mention of the fact that for almost 70 years and with impunity you have been stealing, occupying and colonizing his land and oppressing, torturing and killing his people.

      • Keith
        March 19, 2015, 5:36 pm

        HOPHMI- “The only thing it means is that when your population is being attacked by rockets, you’ll favor your government doing what it can to stop the rocket attacks.”

        You mean like honoring the terms of the previous cease fire?

  35. hophmi
    March 18, 2015, 1:06 pm

    And Ali Abunimah should watch his mouth. If he’s going to say that he’s happy about the election of Netanyahu because it showed the toxicity of Israeli society, he’s just inviting people to say that the election of Hamas in Palestine was great because it showed the toxicity of Palestinian society.

    • kalithea
      March 18, 2015, 1:25 pm

      Hello! No worry there; it’s been already overstated and regurgitated ad nauseum by your ilk. Next?

    • W.Jones
      March 18, 2015, 1:41 pm

      Netanyahu’s election wasn’t great. It just has its pluses and minuses like lots of elections.

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 2:00 pm

      zzzzzzzzzz.

      • eGuard
        March 18, 2015, 3:18 pm

        just, how did you like the weather today?

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 8:22 pm

        Nice spring- y day here.

        ( I must be missing something!)

    • Mooser
      March 18, 2015, 7:17 pm

      ” If he’s going to say that he’s happy about the election of Netanyahu because it showed the toxicity of Israeli society, he’s just inviting people to say that the election of Hamas in Palestine was great because it showed the toxicity of Palestinian society.”

      Gosh Hophmi, every day I see the reasons why you are on the boards-of-directors of two out-reach organizations you can’t name. When it comes to out-reach, you are a regular Einstein. For instance, you would never reach for the first cheap false equivalence you can find.
      Nope, not you, Hophmi.

    • Hostage
      March 18, 2015, 8:42 pm

      he’s just inviting people to say that the election of Hamas in Palestine was great because it showed the toxicity of Palestinian society.

      I fail to see your analogy. Netanyahu wasn’t running for elected office in an interim governmental entity created in accordance with the terms of a formal agreement between the PLO and Israel. BTW, the State of Israel was created through acts of terror and apartheid, that included mortar attacks against defenseless Arab villages, dispossession and disenfranchisement of three quarters of a million inhabitants, and decades of martial law and persecution of the remaining Palestinian population. In other words, things have been rotten in Israel for a long, long time.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 8:51 pm

        Thanks for that, Hostage.

        (it’s so good to have you back again)

    • Pixel
      March 18, 2015, 8:49 pm

      @hophmi

      Your words/sentiments are the same but something’s changed.

      Just as Bibi flung his mask aside, you’re not locked into your role as provocateur.

      You’re part of this community, a place that embraces growth and change.

      Heck, just look at Phil!

      Think about dipping your toes into the water.

  36. dx
    March 18, 2015, 1:30 pm

    The news coverage I read from many sources either described Netanyahu’s racist and anti-Palestinian state pronouncements as merely last minute desperate campaign tactics or said that his statements would be “walked back” after the election. It was sort of like saying, “But he didn’t really mean it.” However, I think he really meant it and must be dealt with accordingly.

    The US cannot credibly keep acting as apologist-in-chief for this racist country.

    And I do believe the election results show the society as a whole condones, embraces, and shares this same racist point of view even though I realize there are some (a decided minority) of fair-minded people, too. From personal experience, I got to know a native Israeli quite well who held the same appalling racist views. Consequently, we are no longer friends. The profound frustration I felt led me to this site.

  37. concernedhuman
    March 18, 2015, 1:57 pm

    NY Times comments on ‘ugly’ elections after Netanyahu win

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/NY-Times-Daily-Beast-rail-against-Netanyahu-win-in-latest-Op-Eds-394336

    The New York Times editorial titled “An Israeli Election Turns Ugly” criticized Netanyahu and questioned his legitimacy for the Israeli people, saying that “Mr. Netanyahu showed that he was desperate, and craven, enough to pull out all the stops.”

    “Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s outright rejection of a Palestinian state and his racist rant against Israeli Arab voters on Tuesday showed that he has forfeited any claim to representing all Israelis.”

    Meanwhile, The Daily Beast’s, Jonathan Alter called Netanyahu desperate and warned of harsh consequences as a result of the win

    Why?

    Because they been hiding israel’s racism from the American people and israel’s rejection of two state solution blaming every failure on Palestinians.

    Now netnyahoo openly admits he is racist and against two state solution and israel is the blockade to peace it becomes difficult for them to still lie to American people about i/p conflict and keep on supporting israel.

  38. kalithea
    March 18, 2015, 2:01 pm

    Here’s another way I see this. Netanyahu’s win on the platform of No Palestinian State and the Arabs are coming! is just what the Israeli public were waiting for someone to vocalize in that election. But beyond that, it was a well-deserved slap in the face; snap out of it! moment for many who thought Zionism could be saved.

    Now I expect to read more passionate, inspiring articles like this one that’ll knock some sense into deluded Zionist libs and expose those Zionists hugging the Apartheid cement bloc they make us believe is really a life raft, only it’s attached to a pier beside their luxurious condo in Boca or in one of the many places they’re doing just fine here and elsewhere. These lords of Apartheid are financing not their imaginary getaway but a racist project called Zionism they need to round out their snug feeling and comfort here.

    • Pixel
      March 18, 2015, 8:55 pm

      @kalithea

      Love your comments.

      Passionate and articulate.

  39. just
    March 18, 2015, 2:16 pm

    C’mon Mr. Obama~ cut the cord.

    “7:05 P.M. White House ‘deeply concerned’ by ‘divisive rhetoric’ that sought to marginalize Arab Israelis

    White Press secretary Josh Ernest said: “The Obama administration is deeply concerned by the use of divisive rhetoric in Israel that sought to marginalize Arab Israeli citizens.” The press secretary was alluding to Netanyahu’s comments on Tuesday, when he urged his supporters to go and vote, warning that his rule is in danger because “the Arab are voting in droves.”

    “This rhetoric undermines the values and Democratic ideals that have been important to our democracy and an important part of what binds the United States and Israel together,” Ernest said. “These are views the administration intends to communicate directly to the Israelis.”

    “It has been the policy of the United States for more than 20 years that a two-state solution is the goal of resolving the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians,” Earnest said.

    He added that the U.S. continue to believe a two-state solution is the “best way to diffuse tensions” in the region.

    “Based on Prime Minister Netanyahu’s comments, the United States will reevaluate our position and the path forward in this situation,” he said. (Barak Ravid)”

    ~and~

    Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, Harper and Modi licked the boot, and asked for the other one :

    7:17 P.M. Canadian, Indian leaders congratulate Netanyahu

    Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper congratulated Netanyahu on his win, tweeting that Canada is looking forward to working with the Israeli government, once it is formed. “Israel has no greater friend than Canada,” Harper tweeted.

    Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi also congratulated Netanyahu. In his tweet, posted in English and in Hebrew, Modi mentioned he recalls “our New York meeting last September warmly.” (Haaretz)”

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-election-2015/1.647603

    • lysias
      March 18, 2015, 2:25 pm

      Still no Obama statement on the Israeli election on the White House Web site.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 2:29 pm

        That is quite revealing, eh?

      • Taxi
        March 18, 2015, 3:11 pm

        I think that’s cute and adorable.

        To me, Obama’s silence means: THE IRAN DEAL IS DOUBLY ON.

        Netanyahu can win all he wants – neither he nor the ziocons in Washington can do anything about that.

        And THAT is the REAL victory.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 3:05 pm

        Super.

        Some of the very people that I dislike the most. At least they are consistent.

      • Pixel
        March 18, 2015, 8:58 pm

        @Taxi

        “cute and adorable”

        LOL

    • Walid
      March 18, 2015, 3:10 pm

      “Israel has no greater friend than Canada,” Harper tweeted. ”

      “Modi mentioned he recalls “our New York meeting last September warmly.”

      Before Harper, Canada’s greatest friend was the US and it was the same for the US that always declrared that Canada was its greatest friend. That was before religion was introduced into the brew. It’s looking like Harper is going to be pulling a Netanyahu to stay in power this October, he’s trying to disqualify a million ex-pat Canadians from voting as this group generally votes against his party.

      As to Modi, it’s understandable, he and Netanyahu share a common aversion to Moslems and Arabs in the same way apartheid South Africa and Israel shared a common aversion to Arabs and black Africans.

      • Pixel
        March 18, 2015, 9:02 pm

        @Walid

        Dig deep enough into Canda/Harper and it will make perfect sense.

        Everything is connected.
        Everything is hiding in plain sight.

      • Walid
        March 18, 2015, 10:22 pm

        “Dig deep enough into Canda/Harper and it will make perfect sense. Everything is connected. Everything is hiding in plain sight. “(Pixel)

        No need for deep digging, Pixel, and it’s not even hiding in plain sight; it’s on like an old flashing red and blue neon sign. Too much religion especially of the messianic kind is also a dangerous thing. Bush too claimed that God told him to attack Afghanistan and Iraq and to create a Palestinian statel his actual words:

        …”I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, “George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.” And I did, and then God would tell me, “George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq .” And I did. And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, “Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.” And by God I’m gonna do it.”

        Bush fulfilled only 2 of God’s 3 orders.

    • piotr
      March 20, 2015, 8:58 am

      Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper congratulated Netanyahu on his win, tweeting that Canada is looking forward to working with the Israeli government, once it is formed. “Israel has no greater friend than Canada,” Harper tweeted.

      If only that were true! USA should clearly relinquish this honor.

      • eljay
        March 20, 2015, 9:21 am

        || piotr: Canada’s Prime Minister Stephen Harper congratulated Netanyahu on his win, tweeting that Canada is looking forward to working with the Israeli government, once it is formed. “Israel has no greater friend than Canada,” Harper tweeted. ||

        The effusive adulation is bad enough, but the sucking sounds are embarrassing! C’mon, Steve, get up off your knees already!

  40. JLewisDickerson
    March 18, 2015, 2:16 pm

    RE: “I was right about this being a hugely clarifying election. All has been revealed to a watching world. Netanyahu’s reversion to racism in the last days of a desperate campaign, his explicit denunciation of “Arab voters” on Facebook so as to get his people out, along with his repudiation of the two-state solution—and the huge reward delivered to him by Israelis for these statements — should be clarifying revelations to the American political class.” ~ Weiss

    HOLD UP, PHIL – EVERYTHING’S COOL: Danny Ayalon, former Likud ambassador to US predicts Bibi “will retract” disavowal of Palestinian state if he holds on. – http://www.politico.com/story/2015/03/bibi-bounces-back-116167.html

    • eljay
      March 18, 2015, 2:40 pm

      Before the full margin of Netanyahu’s victory was clear on Tuesday, Ayalon predicted that “Bibi will retract” the statement.

      It’s easy to retract statements that aren’t applicable anymore:

      “A few days ago, I said that the right-wing government was in danger, that Arab voters were heading to the polling stations in droves and that left-wing NGOs were bringing them there in buses.

      “I wish to formally retract that statement.

      “I want to make very clear to everyone that I do not think that the right-wing government is in danger, that Arab voters are heading to the polling stations in droves and that left-wing NGOs are bringing them there in buses.

      “Thank you. And may God bless the Thousand-Year ‘Jewish State’!”

    • JLewisDickerson
      March 18, 2015, 2:47 pm

      P.S. EVERTHING’S HUNCKY-DORY BECAUSE NETANYAHU WAS JUST LYING FOR THE ELECTION – HE’S REALLY A “PRAGMATIST”:
      “Deep Wounds and Lingering Questions After Israel’s Bitter Race”,
      By Isabel Kershner, New York Times, March 17, 2015

      [EXCERPTS] Benjamin Netanyahu was poised to return to power. But there was a cloud over his apparent turnaround, the result of an increasingly shrill campaign that raised questions about his ability to heal Israel’s internal wounds or better its standing in the world.

      He said there would be no Palestinian state under his watch.

      He railed against Israeli Arabs because they had gone out to vote.

      From the capitals of Europe, to Washington, to the West Bank, to the streets of Israel, even while his critics said Mr. Netanyahu had reaffirmed his reputation as a cynical, calculating politician, it appeared that his approach succeeded in drawing votes from other right-leaning parties. . .

      . . . Still, Mr. Netanyahu has a long history in power and has in the past demonstrated that he can change positions from campaigning to governing. His record is as a pragmatist, analysts said.

      I am sure that Netanyahu, with his broad historical perspective, if he is prime minister again, will be thinking long and hard about what legacy he will want to leave behind with regard to the demographic makeup of the country and its standing in the world, said Gidi Grinstein, founder of the Reut Institute, an Israeli strategy group. In the end I would not rule out his going back to the two-state solution, he said, referring to the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel.

      Tzachi Hanegbi, a Likud deputy foreign minister in the departing government, told reporters on Tuesday night that he expected the American administration to make an effort to renew the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. We would be very delighted to renew the negotiations, Mr. Hanegbi said, adding that it was up to the Palestinians. It is to the benefit of both peoples, he said. . .

      . . . Shmuel Sandler, a professor of political science at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv, said Mr. Netanyahu had been fighting for his political survival. “Yesterday he was prepared to do anything, he said. But he added that Mr. Netanyahu knew he now had to repair his relationship with Mr. Obama. . .

      ENTIRE ARTICLE – http://goo.gl/qmLh4f

    • JLewisDickerson
      March 18, 2015, 2:52 pm

      P.P.S. EVERYTHING IS GOOD! ! !

      D.A.F. [Deutsch Amerikanische Freundschaft (German American Friendship)]:

      Sei still. Schließe deine augen.
      Bitte denk an nichts.
      Glaube mir. Alles ist gut. Alles ist gut.
      TRANSLATION:
      Don’t say anything. Close your eyes.
      Think of nothing.
      Believe me. Everything is good. Everything is good

      DAF – Alles ist Gut (Everything is Good) – Live Tivoli Utrecht (15-08-2010)

  41. just
    March 18, 2015, 2:23 pm

    “Netanyahu will make Israel the Middle East’s next failed state

    …Israel is galloping toward an anti-democratic binational future saturated with hatred and racism. A government with centrist parties could camouflage this horrible trend, pretty it up a bit, but not change its path.

    Israel will sink into international, academic and economic isolation. Its intellectual and economic elites will leave; young people will seek a life with hope. Only those who prefer the land’s holy stones over life itself, and the poor who can’t afford otherwise, will stay. The Zionist dream, which has already suffered an indecent act committed against it, will be mortgaged completely to messianism and violence.

    Israel will not be a liberal democracy but rather another failing state in the Middle East. This is an unrivaled dark and despairing vision — but this election, in which a person who most of the people are disgusted by still won, was truly terrifying.

    Even though nearly half the people chose otherwise and flexed every muscle to create some hope for the continuation of the Zionist dream, the right-wing half, the settler and religious half, forced on us a nightmarish government in which a cynical racist like Lieberman might still be defense minister. Let the people have the honor of such a government.

    The Israeli people don’t want peace — amid all the incitement they’re afraid. They don’t want to live in a liberal and democratic Western country. They want to live in the Kingdom of Judea, whose fate is known. This wish must not be honored.”

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.647619?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    A good opinion piece, imho.

    pssst: It’s already failed.

    • lysias
      March 18, 2015, 2:28 pm

      A failed state with hundreds of nukes. A grave threat to the whole world.

      The U.S. needs to adopt the Iranian proposal of a nuclear-weapons-free Middle East.

  42. ritzl
    March 18, 2015, 2:44 pm

    I haven’t read all the comments yet so this may be redundant.

    This election with the choices it presented and declined, signaled either the beginning of the end, or the end of the beginning for Israel.

    Random thoughts:

    • Mondoweiss: One of great things about this site is the ability of Phil and the masthead writers to admit mistakes, yet still press forward in meaningful ways. Those take similar courage, drawn imho from the same well, but not necessarily (rarely?) overlapping. To do both, even to be able to entertain the desire to do both, is remarkable in my experience. The constant mental shifting of priorities and allocations is exhausting, vanity tends to rule, and few succeed.

    Thanks Phil/All.

    • “Startup Nation”: Every successful startup biz, ever, anywhere faces a transition from founder leadership to mezzanine leadership if it wants to go “big.” The transition is binary and critical to future success of the enterprise. Since all entrepreneurs envision themselves as the next great thing (its the nature of the get-up-in-the-morning startup beast) they fail to appreciate the complexity of growth. This is always a tense period and some closely held companies don’t survive the transition.

    This is what this election presented to Israel pols, voters, and the world. Israel balked completely, and failed miserably, at this first pass at its transition to an actual democracy. The world, as Israel’s “angel” investors is not going to allow that to happen many more times. They/we have too much invested (and at stake) in Israel’s success and/or management change into a peaceful, outward-looking, non-victim country.

    Israel has been given every chance and plenty of time to make the right decisions. It hasn’t done so – by its own choice.

    • Of Kingmakers and Coalitions: Buji showed himself to be a true loser and coward. He was never going to change anything. The Joint List did their part to unseat Netanyahu. They might have suspended their disbelief and gone along with sitting outside government to do so. But Herzog (and maybe the rest of his prospective coalition) decided that their hatred of Arabs was more compelling than unseating a leader that has been destructive to Israel (the country the ZU professes to “love”) in the extreme.

    Rather than include and unseat they chose exclusion and destruction. That is the state of “center-left” vision and leadership in Israel.

    • Ayman Odeh, Right guy at the right time?: I said this the other day, but it might be more relevant now. The Jewish-Israeli leadership is steeped in victimhood (Hi eljay) and insularity to the point of collectively entertaining becoming a societal black hole (as Ms. Abarbanel points out here: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahu-won-what). 95% of Jewish-Israelis supported Gaza Slaughter 2014. No Jewish-Israeli leader is willing, able, or both to step outside that box. NONE.

    Odeh is the notable standapart/alone from the collective, Jewish-Israeli headlong plummet toward oblivion. He is inclusive and outward-looking. Visionary and courageous. Etc., etc. Everything that seems to be missing in Israeli political leadership.

    So is it possible, in the Mother of all Paradoxes, that an Israeli Arab could save Israel?

    • eljay
      March 18, 2015, 2:59 pm

      || ritzl: … (Hi eljay) … ||

      Hey, ritzl. :-)

      || … So is it possible, in the Mother of all Paradoxes, that an Israeli Arab could save Israel? … ||

      That would be wonderful, but I suspect that as his chance of saving Israel increases, his chance of being assassinated by Zio-supremacists increases at an even greater rate.

      (And then, once he’s been murdered, “the Arabs” will again be blamed for not having anyone with whom they can make peace.)

    • lysias
      March 18, 2015, 3:00 pm

      Mandela saved South Africa.

      • ritzl
        March 18, 2015, 3:05 pm

        Oh jeez, thanks lysias. I was going to say that. So important.

        I keep reading Twitter posts by Jews/libzios saying “We need a Mandela!” Well, as you say, they have one.

        Yet another sign of possibly terminal insularity.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 3:06 pm

        +1!

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 3:01 pm

      What a great pleasure to read your astute observations, ritzl.

      “So is it possible, in the Mother of all Paradoxes, that an Israeli Arab could save Israel?”

      Indeed.

      At the same time, there is something wildly natural and in perfect alignment about it. Israel was ‘created’ amidst the Palestinians living there, without their assent or consultation.

      It was, after all, the indigenous folks who knew how live in harmony and with respect.

      • ritzl
        March 18, 2015, 3:15 pm

        Thanks just. Backatcha.

        “At the same time, there is something wildly natural and in perfect alignment about it.”

        Exactly right, as in “Nature abhors a [leadership] vacuum.”

        “…in harmony and with respect.”

        With each other (mostly) and the land. Probably related concepts.

        Peace.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 3:39 pm

        yes, I did mean the land as well!

        If you read Professor Salaita’s amazing piece, much of that is made clear.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/palestine-unnaturally

    • Bornajoo
      March 18, 2015, 4:21 pm

      Super comment ritzl!!

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 6:05 pm

      “Democracy Now!” had an interview with Amira Hass and Dr. Jamal Zahalka today.

      http://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/18/after_netanyahu_wins_israel_vote_with

      To your point, ritzl:

      Amira Hass: ” ….. I wanted to add that one of the things that really warmed our hearts—I mean, I would say left wing, and even some of the Israeli press—is that the Joint List, Arab List, also presented that they—true, as Jamal said, representing the Palestinian community in Israel, but they also want to represent and to fight for the rights of other weakened groups in the Israeli society, which means also Jews, so to fight for social justice for all, and, of course, coming out from their position as representatives of the Palestinian community in Israel. But this is something that was—it showed how they are so much more enlightened than any of the other Israeli Jewish parties.”

      • ritzl
        March 18, 2015, 7:00 pm

        Wow! So cool, just!

        God I hope that sentiment gets broad exposure and acceptance. It would avoid SO much pain and blood all around. (Maybe that’s the bridge…)

        Palestinian-Israelis are going to have to demonstrate a whole new level and durability of sumud for that shared outcome/avoidance to take root. It’s hard to tell if they can, or even if they might want to.

        One data point does not make a trend, but as of now Joint List has created something out of pure black nothing. They did something good that few thought was even possible. That’s gotta count as momentum of some sort. It may be buildable.

        Sorry, I do go on an on. This is really interesting and so nakedly and realistically hopeful (I don’t think I’ve ever used those two words together!) on several related fronts.

      • just
        March 18, 2015, 7:47 pm

        “Sorry, I do go on an on.”

        ritzl, please don’t apologize!

        This is the only good thing to come out of Israel in a very long time. It is the one thing that gives me any hope at all. You are right to say that “Joint List has created something out of pure black nothing”.

  43. tombishop
    March 18, 2015, 3:00 pm

    Another election result: The exposure of Christian Zionism’s role enabling this apartheid state and in influencing U.S. foreign policy.

    http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/33102/open-miracle-israel-netanyahu-crushes-opposition-wins-election-jerusalem/#Ym54cIaPeSFLrlmu.97

    Read the comments.

  44. JeffB
    March 18, 2015, 3:21 pm

    @WJones

    I don’t see anything you wrote that contradicts my conclusion. Jewish Americans, as we both agree, will not care as much about the Israelis. Even if they somewhat move to the right in the US, I don’t think i will be that strong, anymore than say Italians, who were still Democrats. Due to being a somewhat secular religious minority they will still be more likely to be liberals in cultural values.

    That’s what I’m saying the majority that identify as Jewish will be at least 1/2 orthodox or tightly tied to Israel. Sure among the 1/2 that aren’t you might see a 30% being liberal but that’s under the USA average for liberals. The Jewish youth aren’t going to be Progressive except for Palestine because they aren’t going to be all that progressive.

    Now if you could the much larger say group of people who likely identify as having a Jewish grandparent and have some weak ties. They will be secular and liberal, but they won’t care.

    On the main in 50 years the Jewish community likely won’t have enough power anymore on the left to influence the left’s stance towards Israel. But at the same time they might still have enough to influence America’s stance.

  45. David Doppler
    March 18, 2015, 3:45 pm

    According to JPost, Kahlon won’t begin coalition negotiations until Sunday. Netanyahu CANNOT get to 61 – the minimum he needs – without Kahlon or Lapid’s Yesh Atid. http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/Despite-weakened-left-Kahlon-sees-leverage-for-finance-ministry-394373

    So all the assumptions that it is Bibi for four more years are just false. The government isn’t formed until it’s formed, until someone gets to 61. Kulanu, with Yesh Atid, the Zionist Union, the Joint List, and Meretz, make 63. Netanyahu CANNOT form a government without at least one of those. Kulanu may be all the former Likudniks tired of Bibi who failed to respond to the last minute racist/alarmists tactics to return.

    Kahlon is one cool customer. He’s going to make the rightwing sweat, before he decides. Where does Michael Oren sit in your new government, Bibi? Does Kulanu get 3 or 4 ministries? Or maybe 5? Who’s to say he isn’t just playing his cards for strongest position in cutting a different deal with Herzog, instead? Kahlon and Lapid are alternate kingmakers, each playing a version of the prisoner’s dilemma. Do they fold to Bibi the tough jailer? Or have they formed a bond through their prior years in Bibi’s government that allows them to hold out, like made men in the mafia? Or is either one of them just too fed up to consider being part of Bibi’s government, too often burned to trust anything he says?

    I’d sure like to know more about why he abandoned Likud and his government post in the first place, because he strikes me as a man of deep principle and competence, one who wants to heal Israeli society, not a drinker of Neocon KoolAid.

    • ritzl
      March 18, 2015, 6:27 pm

      I agree with your math, DD. It’s indisputable. That’s why this election was/is such a profound inflection (reflection?)/discussion point.

      Herzog conceded almost immediately! Folded like the proverbial cheap suit. That almost certainly means it’s over.

      When he conceded that quickly, he had to have known something about who was or wasn’t going to do this or that. Stuff that we all can only guess about.

      So maybe Kulanu (which, in a fit of prophecy or eye-poking irony, supposedly means “All of Us” in Hebrew) has a really really big bug up his butt about N’u and is only relishing the spotlight by meanly flirting w/ N’u. Maybe he’ll ultimately join with Herzog, Joint List and all.

      It’s possible. So while it seems over, it may not quite be over over.

      Interesting stuff.

      • lysias
        March 19, 2015, 9:35 am

        Like Kerry conceded almost immediately after the 2004 election, despite all the indications that the Republicans had stolen the election.

    • Pixel
      March 18, 2015, 9:41 pm

      @DD

      Bibi won’t let that happen.

      —-
      Never underestimate a psychopath/sociopath.

      They aren’t playing a different game, they’re not playing a game at all.

  46. eGuard
    March 18, 2015, 3:48 pm

    So this is Israel’s crisis – We’ve heard that before. What crisis are you talking about? Why is there a save needed, and from what? Enough of this.

    I say: the only true armageddon for Israel would be a civil war between Zionists. Until then, nothing changes, nothing to be saved, just another war against Arabs. Until then, stop ‘predicting’ and stop crying wolf.

    I despise all reports & reporters that proclaim “The end is near”. That is just crappy journalism. You only need to write what is actually going on. (For example, that was so good about “Feeling the Hate in Jerusalem” by Max Blumenthal: no need to extrapolate, the images were clear enough). Do you think Israel can not go any lower and still function? Just wait and see. Why claim that this is the bottom, a bottom, what bottom?

    Typically, all those reporting “This is Israel definitely going down” (it is going on for years) are only speculating and fantasising. No future facts are destilled and described because that would only tie them. It is proof of bad journalism: mentioning their own fear and emotion and insecurity, but not reporting a single fact. Better start writing fiction.

  47. bintbiba
    March 18, 2015, 3:49 pm

    Ritzl & Just …. +10 x2

  48. a blah chick
    March 18, 2015, 4:29 pm

    The level of bigotry is clearly revealed by the fact that though Kahlon’s of Vapid Lapid’s parties got fewer seats than the joint list they’re the “kingmakers” and not Odeh.

    I hope they can keep the Joint list together, it is after all, a creation for survival. I hope that they will be able to throw a few tiny wrenches into the racist machinery. Keep the waters troubled.

  49. yonah fredman
    March 18, 2015, 4:30 pm

    My preference today would be for Bibi to disappear and for Gideon Saar to take over. bibi is a PR nightmare.

    thinking today of the barak netanyahu election of 16 years ago when the results were much more favorable to a zionist of my ilk. the liberal zionist will warn the israelis that their path leads to pariah-hood, but will not participate in creating that pariah-hood.

    • Shingo
      March 18, 2015, 11:25 pm

      My preference today would be for Bibi to disappear and for Gideon Saar to take over. bibi is a PR nightmare.

      Yeah Yona,

      Israel’s problem is the bad PR. Other than that, Israel is peachy.

      • yonah fredman
        March 19, 2015, 8:48 pm

        Singo- you’re correct. it goes much deeper than PR.

  50. ckg
    March 18, 2015, 4:37 pm

    Even PEP Tom Toles at the PEP Washington Post is having some fun with Netanyahu: http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/toles/

  51. a blah chick
    March 18, 2015, 4:40 pm

    Oh my dear lord, it’s just as bad across the pond. From the Guardian:

    “We will have to wait and see what the new government’s policy is,” responded Minister for International Development Desmond Swayne on concerns raised in the House that Netanyahu does not support the two-state solution. During international development questions this morning Swayne acknowledged that the situation in Gaza is desperate and confirmed that the UK government remains committed to the two-state solution.

    Lisa Nandy MP for Wigan asked about the government’s long-term plan in light of Netanyahu’s re-election, a prime minister who believes the continuation of the blockade on Gaza is “a good thing”. Nandy said that now is the time for Swayne to apply pressure on ministerial colleagues to “recognise the state of Palestine and end this appalling situation.” To which Swayne replied: “We should not be hasty.”

    Ya got that? LET’S NOT BE TOO HASTY!

    • Pixel
      March 18, 2015, 9:48 pm

      Dig deep enough into the UK and it will make perfect sense.

      Everything is connected.
      Everything is hiding in plain sight.

  52. just
    March 18, 2015, 4:46 pm

    I hope that Beinart has sunglasses with which to protect his eyes from the bright light that finally partly made it through his previously totally blinkered vision. He still has a looong way to go, imho. But, it is progress. It almost sounds as though he lost big at the Adelson casino…

    “With Netanyahu’s reelection, the peace process is over and the pressure process must begin

    If Israelis have the right to vote for permanent occupation, we in the Diaspora have the right to resist it.

    My entire adult life, American Jewish leaders have been telling Americans that Israel can save itself. Just wait until Israel gains a respite from terror, they said; then its silent, two-state majority will roar. Give Israelis constant reassurance; never pressure them. If they know “the United States is right next to them,” Malcolm Hoenlein of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations promised Barack Obama in 2009, Israeli leaders will “take risks” for peace.

    Israel has been disproving that theory throughout the Netanyahu era. Now, with this election, Israel has killed it.
    ……..

    The American Jewish establishment will never admit that its theory of change has been discredited. It will go on insisting, no matter how laughable that insistence becomes, that Israel is serious about creating a Palestinian state. The establishment’s disconnection from reality will gradually make it irrelevant. Already, the trend is clear: AIPAC, which claims Israel will end the occupation, is being supplanted by Sheldon Adelson, who celebrates Israel for entrenching the occupation. Adelson is not taking over the institutions of American Jewish life only because of his money. He’s taking over because he looks reality in the eye.

    We must too. “Power,” said the great American abolitionist Frederick Douglass, “concedes nothing without a demand.” For almost half a century, Israel has wielded brutal, undemocratic, unjust power over millions of human beings in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. And as this election makes clear, Israel will concede nothing on its own. This isn’t because Jewish Israelis are different than anyone else. It’s because they are the same. Which leaves just one question: how best to make the demand? The boycott, divestment and sanctions movement offers one path. In the wake of Netanyahu’s win, it will grow, gaining more mainstream support. But the logic of the BDS movement is toward a single binational state that, while tempting to some liberals in theory, would in practice likely mean civil war. It would also mean the end of the one state in the world that has as its mission statement the protection of Jewish life. Those of us who still believe in such a state, alongside a Palestinian one need another way.

    Our principle should be this: Support any pressure that is nonviolent and consistent with Israel’s right to exist. That means backing Palestinian bids at the United Nations. It means labeling and boycotting settlement goods. It means joining and amplifying nonviolent Palestinian protest in the West Bank. It means denying visas to, and freezing the assets of, Naftali Bennett and other pro-settler leaders. It means pushing the Obama administration to present out its own peace plan, and to punish — yes, punish — the Israeli government for rejecting it. It means making sure that every time Benjamin Netanyahu and the members of his cabinet walk into a Jewish event outside Israel, they see Diaspora Jews protesting outside. It means loving Israel more than ever, and opposing its government more than ever. It means accepting that, for now at least, the peace process is over and the pressure process must begin.

    For many Diaspora Jews, this transition will feel painful and unnatural. It certainly does for me. But there is now no other way. We know in our bones, even without Meir Dagan telling us, that Israel is headed toward moral disaster. We know that a non-democratic Israel is a dead Israel. We know that if Israel makes permanent an occupation that reeks of colonialism and segregation, an America that is becoming ever more black and brown will eventually turn against it. We know the BDS one-staters are winning. We know that if Israel continues on its current path, our children will one day live in a world without a Jewish state. We know that our grandparents’ generation of Diaspora Jews will be remembered for having helped birth the first Jewish country in 2,000 years, and that ours will be remembered for having helped destroy it.

    Yes, our influence is limited. But it is not irrelevant. Israelis have made their choice. Now it’s time to make ours. ”

    http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.647682

    • just
      March 18, 2015, 4:58 pm

      When he writes:

      “And as this election makes clear, Israel will concede nothing on its own. This isn’t because Jewish Israelis are different than anyone else. It’s because they are the same.”

      I think he’s totally wrong about that.

      • RoHa
        March 19, 2015, 4:09 am

        He is. It’s totally wrong to write “different than” instead of “different from”.

      • just
        March 20, 2015, 12:21 pm

        Well said, RoHa.

    • Mooser
      March 18, 2015, 7:07 pm

      “We know that if Israel makes permanent an occupation that reeks of colonialism and segregation, an America that is becoming ever more black and brown will eventually turn against it.”

      And bringing to an end the centuries-old White-Jewish alliance? Wow, MJ is a strange dude.

      Oh, here’s the pay-off: “It means loving Israel more than ever,” Yeah, that’s pretty much where I figured we’d get to, one way or another.

      • Dan
        March 18, 2015, 9:34 pm

        @Mooser
        I don’t understand your comment.

        What is the centuries-old White-Jewish Alliance?
        What is strange about the quote that begins “We know that if Israel…”?
        It seems to be a sensible statement

    • larick
      March 19, 2015, 10:46 am

      I love your insight and your sentiment…until, “It would also mean the end of the one state in the world that has as its mission statement the protection of Jewish life. Those of us who still believe in such a state, alongside a Palestinian one need another way.” That mission statement has always been a cover for settler colonialism in the service of empire. There’s no way around that and there’s no way to square that with anything remotely about the welfare of the Jewish People. The only way we can be of service to Jews in Israel is to disabuse ourselves of the romantic notions that have misled us to support such a monster in the first place, including whatever nonesense about “the first Jewish country…” (We) Askenazi Jews never came from there- we came from non-Enlightenment Poland /Pale and were blocked in our exit to England by Balfour in 1916 and to the U.S. in the 1940’s. From the Ulster Planatation to Andrew Jackson and Falluja, we have to rid ourselves of our identification with Jewish Manifest Destiny and realize that Jews in Israel can and must come to terms with Palestinians as equals. If they/you can pull that off by means of a “2 state solution” its ok with me, but don’t blame BDS if you can’t.

  53. echinococcus
    March 18, 2015, 4:54 pm

    The conclusions were irritatingly into Jewish navel gazing: in fact, if one doesn’t buy the theory that US support for Zionism is the desire of an overwhelming majority of US Jews (which I don’t), these results are not likely to change the US government stance. They will, however, help a lot to legitimize armed resistance in the eyes of a good part of European public opinion. They will certainly accelerate sanctions, in an expected move to shore up PA collaborationists and pre-empt resistance. Finally some grounds for guarded optimism, thanks to Likud!

  54. a blah chick
    March 18, 2015, 5:02 pm

    From what I can tell from Twitter and the after morning comments Israel’s apologists seem to be settling on the old “he didn’t mean what he said” excuse.

    Romeu Monteiro ‏@romeu 8h8 hours ago
    @glcarlstrom @side_shore Netanyahu did not disavow the peace process. He rejected the creation of a palestinian state.

    Sweet baby Jesus.

    • Shingo
      March 18, 2015, 11:13 pm

      And if that’s not bad enough, I bet the WH will play their part by arranging a new round of peace talks and then blame the Palestinians for not agreeing to come to the table.

  55. Nevada Ned
    March 18, 2015, 6:06 pm

    Phil’s key penultimate paragraph:

    This is what Palestinian intellectuals from Ghada Karmi to Edward Said to Raja Shehadeh to Lila Abu-Lughod to Saree Makdisi to Ali Abunimah, really the list is endless, have been telling us Zionism is for many years, and they have been marginalized and smeared for saying so. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/save-israel-now#sthash.2VJ8YlTb.dpuf

    The conclusion that I draw is that it will take external pressure on Israel to get Israel to make any important concessions. The purely internal forces within Israel for peace and justice are too weak, because many Israeli Jews benefit – or think they benefit – from racial discrimination against Palestinians. Netanyahu won because he openly opposed the two state solution. And everybody agrees that there is almost no support at all within Israel for a one-state solution (invite Palestinians to become Israelis, with equal rights for non-Jews.

    So, whether the goal is one state or two, it will take external pressure on Israel to get any concessions at all.

    • larick
      March 19, 2015, 10:19 am

      Nevada, you’re right. I just got back from the Jewish Voice National Membership Conference. The last one I went to 5 years ago had under 100 people; this one had 500. It went from about under a dozen chapters to 60 and is growing very fast. It clarified its stand on BDS and represents well informed ex-Zionists, such as myself, never Zionist Leftists, Democrats, ex-J-Streeters, mixed with a few gentiles and Palestinians. It’s strength is its commitment to real equality and democratic principles- and that is how it operates internally as well. With family in Israel who are devastated by this defeat of democratic forces within Israel, I feel uplifted because I don’t think the liberal Zionists will have a chance there- in part because they have not yet come to terms fully with how intrinsically ill-liberal Zionism really is. Americans believe in – even if they don’t always act it- in equality. That is the strength of BDS and its ability to reach out to the vast majority of Democrat party identified Americans.

  56. james3
    March 18, 2015, 6:16 pm

    “We are right to be afraid”, is the story of humanity. What’s wrong is America’s avid sponsorship of fear, both domestic and foreign, when we are the world champs, with more bombs and Hollywood dreams than any other nation.

    Fear sells.

  57. MRW
    March 18, 2015, 6:29 pm

    Anyone have the exact number of voters for Netanyahu?

  58. spokelse
    March 18, 2015, 6:44 pm

    none of this is surprising if you know anything about Israeli society and it’s history. Even if Herzog would have won, chances for any real movement on the Westbank and Gaza, the fate of Israeli palestinians and related issue, would more or less, be the same. Eventually, there will be a demographically based capitulation, a la South Africa, it will be bloody and messy and unequal and it will be long in coming. Tony Judt wrote that in 100 years historians will talk, in wonder, about how a little state like Israel caused so much trouble for such a long period of time.

  59. yonah fredman
    March 18, 2015, 9:09 pm

    Phil Weiss’s coverage is breathless teenager, gushing and hoping one moment and now absolutes: Israel was never serious about peace. (In fact Israel’s seriousness about peace was sporadic and insufficient, but such nuance is anathema to the teenager.)

    But that is largely besides the point, for Netanyahu’s rejection of the two state solution and his racist rhetoric are in fact the point. The man of the hour is none other than Barack Obama. I’d like to see Obama call Beinart and decide on a policy together with Beinart. It will be tough for me and Israel supporters like me who oppose the settlement enterprise to adjust to the necessity of American pressure. And it will take people like Beinart (plus Derfner and Bradley Burston) to lead the way for American Zionists like me. But it will take Obama to turn this into something real.

    • Walid
      March 18, 2015, 10:31 pm

      “Phil Weiss’s coverage is breathless teenager, gushing and hoping one moment and now absolutes…” (Yonah)

      Looks like you read a lot of romance novels, Yonah.

    • oldgeezer
      March 18, 2015, 11:49 pm

      Insufficient seriousness in response to a statement of not being serious is not nuance. It’s semantics and hair splitting.

      In fact saying someone was not sufficiently serious sounds whimpish apologetics for them.

      • yonah fredman
        March 19, 2015, 8:54 pm

        oldgeezer- i think sporadic is the key descriptor that i would use. i think that both ehud barak and ehud olmert were serious about peacemaking. but their efforts were difficult to sustain because the israeli public is not prepared to go nearly as far as necessary. i think to say that netanyahu was not serious in his efforts is accurate, but to say the same about ehud barak and ehud olmert and yitzhak rabin and shimon peres, is inaccurate and ahistorical. i think until camp david 2000 israel had not faced up to what would be necessary to get near to an agreement. once it was revealed it was not something that the israeli public was willing to approve of and they voted barak out before he could reach an agreement. ehud olmert’s election was a fluke the result of sharon’s near death and coma. and i think he came close. or close enough to call him serious. to call olmert unserious when abbas thought him serious is clearly ahistorical and coming from a propaganda point of view.

    • Donald
      March 19, 2015, 2:40 pm

      Yonah, what you’re doing in this comment is called “displacement”. The Israeli electorate just chose a racist apartheid supporter and you show your unhappiness by bashing Phil. Phil is too much of an optimist, as many have said (including me). I’ve called him a cheerleader on other occasions. That said, he’s done a superb job with the website. If he was overly optimistic the other day, it was a mistake he made with many others. I was willing to be slightly optimistic the other day.

      .

      • yonah fredman
        March 19, 2015, 8:57 pm

        Donald- my second paragraph is quite explicit. i’m not allowed a few sentences of displacement even if I add something of substance afterward?!

      • Donald
        March 19, 2015, 10:30 pm

        “i’m not allowed a few sentences of displacement even if I add something of substance afterward?!”

        Okay, just this once.

    • Mooser
      March 19, 2015, 3:59 pm

      “Phil Weiss’s coverage is breathless teenager, gushing and hoping one moment and now absolutes:”

      So says our resident [……].

      • seafoid
        March 19, 2015, 4:15 pm

        Er gayt oys nokh a maydl

        Talking about how important Israel is to the survival of Judaism- why doesn’t he find a nice Jewish lady and have Jewish babies with her in the diaspora instead of adding to the persecution of the Palestinians ? Or nice Jewish boy and adopt some Jewish kids ?

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 6:46 pm

        Why not? A khasuren die kalleh is tsu shayn, of course.

      • yonah fredman
        March 19, 2015, 8:47 pm

        seafoid- tell me one more time about kastner.

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 10:41 pm

        “seafoid- tell me one more time about kastner.”

        That’s right, Seafoid! You better not talk bad about Kahane or Kastner. No man likes to see his heroes dissed.

      • seafoid
        March 20, 2015, 12:35 am

        Yonah

        Kastner was a Zionist. He figured it was more important to save a few Jews for Israel than to fight the Nazis. He went into the lair of the devil and he made a deal.

        You have a similar problem. It’s about securing the Jewish future, regardless of how dirty the means. Same incoherence.

        Surely there is a more rational way

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 10:32 am

        Yonah, wants to “secure the Jewish future”. There’s no doubt of that!
        It’s just Jews he doesn’t like. Very, very few of them meet his standards.

    • Mooser
      March 19, 2015, 7:04 pm

      “And it will take people like Beinart (plus Derfner and Bradley Burston)”

      Ooh, I’m hearing bad news, Yonah, on Twatter. I think Derfner was injured in a bus accident.

  60. tommy
    March 18, 2015, 9:45 pm

    Military defeat, and oftentimes only unconditionally, are the historical ways right wing societies have been saved. Argentina’s loss of the Falkland Island war brought about a social democratic rescue, but Israel is too secure with military power to believe such an optimistic outcome could occur for it. Military power, social will, and ethno-religious intransigent character combine to create quite a dilemma, and the backing of a world hegemon makes resolving it even more difficult. According to Paulo Freire, only the Palestinians can save the Israelis.

  61. NickJOCW
    March 19, 2015, 12:02 am

    This latest confession from Netanyahu about a Palestinian state seems inextricably linked to the Iranian negotiations which, if they succeed, will significantly undermine Israel’s quasi-papal role as the US’ sole representative in the area.

    PSAKI: Based on the prime minister’s comments, the United States is in a position going forward where we will be evaluating our approach with regard to how best to achieve a two-state solution.

    http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2015/03/239489.htm#ISRAEL

    Oh, and:

    The defeat of the Zionist Union, ostensibly committed to negotiations and a two-state solution, should not, therefore, be read as the defeat of any genuine desire for peace, but as an increasing desire amongst Israelis to abandon the pretence that they seek anything other than permanent violent colonial domination of the indigenous Arabs.

    http://rt.com/op-edge/241905-israel-elections-zionist-union-likud/

  62. David Doppler
    March 19, 2015, 2:22 am

    Here’s the only coverage of Yair Lapid and Moshe Kahlon I can find today.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/israel-elections-2015-moshe-kahlon-kulanu-party-leader-holds-cards-netanyahus-future-1851854

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-election-2015/.premium-1.647679

    Neither is in Netanyahu’s government yet. And why would they join an openly racist government bent on defiance of the world, when their whole point is improving the condition of the Israeli public.

    Herzog has been bashed for “conceding,” but what did he concede? that Likud won more seats than the Zionist Union? that Likud gets first crack at forming a government? both are immutable facts. He also declined to join Likud, saying he will be in opposition. If/when Netanyahu finds he only has 57 votes, then Herzog will have 63. Herzog cannot speak for Kulanu and Yesh Atid. But he has asserted that he will not make a unity government with Likud. Likud just went on record as openly racist and to having been dissembling about the “peace process.” +972 had a good column 10 months ago about how Bibi was boasting to his base, “Obama said ‘not one brick.’ But we built xxxxx new settlement houses, despite the pressure.” Someone then asked him, what about the peace process? The what? he deadpanned, to general laughter.

    Herzog’s strength is reality based, while Netanyahu’s is personality and ideology and deception based. When Herzog says, oh, you only have 57 seats? so, you get to be the opposition. I’m forming a government with 63 seats, Netanyahu may go ballistic, but he’s painted himself and his supporters into a racist, fearmongering, isolated corner. Against the tiresome Bibi, who’s out strongmanned Bennett and Lieberman, there will be arrayed, Herzog (and Livni), Kahlon, Lapid, Odeh.

    Netanyahu has an unlimited capacity to make people tired of him, and he will exhaust the last dregs of tolerance as this coalition process plays itself out. The team of Herzog-Livni-Kahlon-Lapid-Odeh have all the potential of hope and change, the alliance of both the international community, especially the Obama administration, and the Gatekeepers, the wise men of Israel’s security establishment. Netanyahu has his tiresome megalomania. I’m optimistic.

    • ritzl
      March 19, 2015, 3:12 am

      @David Doppler First of all, a bit of housekeeping:

      It’s Herzog-Livni-ODEH-Lapid-Kahlon, NOT Herzog-Livni-Lapid-Kahlon-Odeh.

      The Joint List is the third largest party in Israel politics.They are just as much “kingmakers” as Kulanu. Maybe more so because the road to Kahlon has to pass through Odeh first. RESPECT, please. It’s been earned.

      ◇◇◇

      So your view is that Herzog didn’t concede, he just acknowledged N’u will have first crack and got out of the way? If so, his approach and demeanor seem pretty Al Gore 2000-ish. But fair enough. Sincerely. We just don’t know 100% yet, so it is a possibility.

      I hope I’m wrong about the level of “Arab” loathing vs. the level of N’u loathing in Jewish-Israeli politics. We’ll see.

  63. Bencharif
    March 19, 2015, 9:12 am

    I liked former Obama advisor David Axelrod’s comment, “Netanyahu mortgaged the future to win an election.” And he got exactly the results he expected.

    Those results gave the world a true measure of the Israel of today. After this election, AIPAC, ADL and others will have a much harder time trying to persuade the world that opposing the occupation is an expression of antisemitism rather than a call for justice.

  64. shalom
    March 19, 2015, 10:52 am

    Zionist Union lost big because its leader was not a face from the military like Ehud Barak and Yitzhak Rabin, because the region is overwhelmed in military conflict, because Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, because the PA formed a Unity government with Hamas, because Hamas fired 4500 rockets into Israel last summer and because all of that made the peace process harder to talk about. Now taking a breath, the other reality is unfortunately not much changed. Netanyahu, according to the polls last Friday was about to lose and so he pandered big time to the right and pealed off a bunch of seats from Jewish Home which was and remains to the right of Likud. He didn’t take seats from the Zionist Union, Yesh Atid or Kulanu. He went right to save himself and overcome the speech of Meir Dagan and the effort of nearly 200 former military leaders to prop up Herzog as able to orchestrate the security of the State of Israel. A new wave of right wing zealots did not appear to give Netanyahu the win. He poached them from Bennett and probably increased the percentage of Likud voters that came to the polls. There are 42 seats on the left, (even if 14 happen to represent the Joint Arab List), and a center with another 20, not counting the religious parties who have voted for peace in the past. You do the math Philip!

    • Annie Robbins
      March 19, 2015, 12:31 pm

      he pandered big time to the right and pealed off a bunch of seats from Jewish Home …. A new wave of right wing zealots did not appear to give Netanyahu the win.

      still, jewish home has only been around for a couple years. the youth in israel are increasingly rightwing, extremely so. every year a high percentage of the youth entering the election process are, relatively speaking, right wing zealots. how else would you describe high school polling statistics revealing the vast majority of jewish teenagers in israel don’t think arabs should be allowed to vote in israeli elections? and at the friday night right wing rally in tel aviv, look at the faces in this photo: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/soldiers-jerusalem-netanyahu i read on twitter it was over 50% youth.

      so assuming you’re right regarding likud peeling off votes from jewish home (which i agree is likely) it still doesn’t nullify the concept there’s a “A new wave of right wing zealots” voting in this election. it’s just another accurate name for jewish israeli youths. and they sure differ from the trend were seeing from jewish youths here in america, thank heavens!

      • Mooser
        March 19, 2015, 4:02 pm

        “Zionist Union lost big because its leader was not a face from the military like Ehud Barak and Yitzhak Rabin”

        That’s why I never got any too excited about this election, or cared much about the results. The IDF, runs the place.

    • just
      March 19, 2015, 2:18 pm

      “Zionist Union lost big because its leader was not a face from the military like Ehud Barak and Yitzhak Rabin, because the region is overwhelmed in military conflict, because Iran is developing a nuclear weapon, because the PA formed a Unity government with Hamas, because Hamas fired 4500 rockets into Israel last summer and because all of that made the peace process harder to talk about.”

      Please cite your evidence that “Iran is developing a nuclear weapon”.

      “Hamas fired 4500 rockets into Israel last summer”.

      Why?

      As for the “right wing zealots”, I refer you to Annie (above) and remind you of Lehava and the 95% and to Avigail Abarbanel (not only her main post, but also her comments in the body of the responses) here:

      http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahu-won-what

      You might also want to revisit Ofer Winter’s remarks:

      http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-commander-declares-holy-war-palestinians

      Fanaticism, zealotry, and extremism is growing and supported in Israel.

      Shalom.

    • eljay
      March 19, 2015, 3:38 pm

      || shalom” Zionist Union lost big because … and because all of that made the peace process harder to talk about. ||

      What also makes the peace process harder to talk about are Israel’s past and ON-GOING (war) crimes; its refusal to honour its obligations under international law; and its refusal to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

  65. Kathleen
    March 19, 2015, 10:57 am

    All of BB’s actions have demonstrated that he has never supported a “two state solution.” Now he has said it publicly. Many have known the two state solution was dead for quite some time. BB has said it publicly.

    Mearsheimer predicted this trajectory quite some time ago. The embedded apartheid system that is alive in Israel can no longer be hidden in the shadows.

  66. piotr
    March 19, 2015, 10:58 am

    The coverage in NYT today is quite ominous. Administration is issuing what passes as stern warnings to Israel:

    And with Mr. Netanyahu’s last-minute turnaround against a Palestinian state alongside Israel, several administration officials said that the Obama administration may now agree to passage of a United Nations Security Council resolution embodying principles of a two-state solution that would be based on the pre-1967 lines between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip and mutually agreed swaps.

    Most foreign policy experts say that Israel would have to cede territory to the Palestinians in exchange for holding on to major Jewish settlement blocks in the West Bank.

    Such a Security Council resolution would be anathema to Mr. Netanyahu. Although the principles are United States policy, until now officials would never have endorsed them in the United Nations because the action would have been seen as too antagonistic to Israel.

    “The premise of our position internationally has been to support direct negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians,” a senior White House official said. “We are now in a reality where the Israeli government no longer supports direct negotiations. Therefore we clearly have to factor that into our decisions going forward.”

    Also

    OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
    Netanyahu’s Win Is Good for Palestine
    By YOUSEF MUNAYYER
    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Wednesday.
    International pressure and sanctions on a right-wing government is the only thing that will change Israel’s behavior.

    It is also worth to mention the “chatter” that a Security Council resolution is being prepared to abrogate the UNSC basis for Iran sanctions. It seems that in the negotiations with Iran the tricky remaining part is how the sanctions should be lifted, and the letter of 47 senators was quite helpful: Administration cannot stick to promises of the kind that “if you will behave nicely for few years, we promise to do this and that.” The letter proved unambiguously that this would be worthless, only an irreversible executive action has a tangible meaning. And unfortunately for neo-con, it is possible because UN Charter is a ratified treaty, law of the land in USA pretty much like a Constitution (you cannot change it with a simple Congressional bill), and a UNSC would remove multilateral sanctions. Unilateral sanctions by USA do not have much bite in any case.

    Defiant Israel is just another state, not “the closest ally”, and balance of power policies require, well, balance. Stronger Iran is good for USA when allies in the region go bonkers. Would Iran go too far, the support for the allies can be increased, unless they still go bonkers. “Holy war against Shia heretics” is not in the interest of Western establishment, even if neo-cons and Israel are on board. Israel, from “realistic policy” point of view has to be treated like Turkey and Gulf monarchies — supported only up to a point.

    And domestically, “fervent support of Israel” becomes a wedge issue like health care reform, with quite fickle poll numbers, and good chances for a change that we here would view as positive.

    • Annie Robbins
      March 19, 2015, 12:10 pm

      Obama administration may now agree to passage of a United Nations Security Council resolution embodying principles of a two-state solution

      that would be significant.

  67. Kathleen
    March 19, 2015, 11:27 am

    “A couple of years ago Beinart said that Zionism was in crisis. But that crisis for American Jews is over now. Zionism is what Netanyahu has shown us it is, in his frank calls on Jews to hold the land and deny the vote to non-Jews. This is what Palestinian intellectuals from Ghada Karmi to Edward Said to Raja Shehadeh to Lila Abu-Lughod to Saree Makdisi to Ali Abunimah, really the list is endless, have been telling us Zionism is for many years, and they have been marginalized and smeared for saying so.”

    And some who have clung to the myths that the majority of Israeli’s really and truly wanted two states are faced with hard cold facts. Those like Beinart who finally admitted their silence and complicity over the years are now faced with apartheid Israel staring them in the eyes daring them to admit this fact or roll over as they have in the past.

  68. Kathleen
    March 19, 2015, 12:08 pm

    Mearsheimer explains better than anyone else.

    Prof. John Mearsheimer Analyzes Future of Israel/Palestine: Apartheid to Binational Democracy 1/6

    “Israel is not going to allow the Palestinians to have a viable state of their own in Gaza and the West Bank. Regrettably the two state solution is now a fantasy. Instead those territories will be incorporated into a greater Israel which will be an apartheid state bearing marked resemblance to white ruled South Africa.”

  69. JeffB
    March 19, 2015, 4:36 pm

    @Ellen

    JeffB, are you one of those people who believe the Zionist wanted Jewish victims of the Holocaust because it would be good for Zionism?

    Sounds like you are. Ugggh!

    I don’t know what people you are talking about, so I’d assume no I’m not one of them. The Zionists mostly opposed the Nazis. When the Zionists predicted the rise of Nazism ie. a pogrom carried out with the new technological capacities for mass mobilization of resources demonstrated by states in WWI. The egalitarian liberals disagreed. Understanding the future and being prepared for it is different from desiring it.

  70. JeffB
    March 19, 2015, 4:47 pm

    @Hostage

    Generations of Mizrahi Jews have spilled oceans of ink complaining about the fact that Ashkenazi Jews in Israel either discriminate against them or marginalize them socially, economically and politically on the basis of any ethnic characteristics they happen to share with their Arab neighbors, including the color of their skin

    And statistics show two generations of rapidly growing economic equality while the marriage statistics show the social marginalization isn’t happening. The Likud party has strong Mizrahi /Sephardic support, while the Labor party is much stronger Ashkenazi. Shas is explicitly Mizrahi. Kalhoon is Mizrahi and when asked about discrimination thinks it is nonsense. There may still be some lingering ethnic tension but Israel had a problem in the 1960s and has mostly addressed it successfully. As for your claims about a discriminatory nationality… that’s nonsense. Israeli law doesn’t allow someone to have two nationalities and the state encourages intermarriage between Sephardic and Ashkenazi.

    • piotr
      March 20, 2015, 4:27 am

      John Calhoon (b. 1797) was a United States Representative from Kentucky. He was born in Henry County, Kentucky in 1797. He studied law, was admitted to the bar, and practiced.

      Are you sure that he was a Mizrahi?

      • RoHa
        March 20, 2015, 5:32 am

        From his name, I would think he a descendant from Irish Mizrahis, just as George M. Cohan was.

  71. yonah fredman
    March 19, 2015, 10:21 pm

    We should only anticipate an Obama move such as a Security Council Resolution calling for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank by a certain time (or even something much more toothless but still something that Israel supporters will view as worthy of a fight) only if the talks with Iran collapse. at that point obama can give full attention to the Palestine issue. but if the talks with Iran do not collapse then Obama’s attention will be on fighting off the Congress that will be fighting to oppose the deal with Iran. He will not have the luxury to deal with the Palestine issue.

  72. Mooser
    March 19, 2015, 11:03 pm

    JeffyB must be powered by those “Energizer” batteries. Or by a very powerful desire to enlighten us, and tell us how it really is. He keeps going, and going, and going….

  73. Hostage
    March 19, 2015, 11:58 pm

    And statistics show two generations of rapidly growing economic equality while the marriage statistics show the social marginalization isn’t happening.

    No they are still routinely under represented in the media and in top level professional positions, e.g. A demand from the Mizrahim http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.540963 and Intra-Jewish Discrimination in Israel http://fpif.org/intra-jewish-discrimination-israel/

    Israeli law doesn’t allow someone to have two nationalities

    If there aren’t any dual citizens, then why do IDF regulations only ban such individuals from serving in the submarine service, certain IDF combat units, and for posts requiring high security clearance? See for example “IDF submarine fleet bans dual citizenship” http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4187233,00.html

    Please provide a citation to the relevant Knesset statute or administrative regulation you had in mind. Individuals like Michael Oren and Benjamin Netanyahu have been allowed to hold dual US/Israeli citizenship, right up until the moment they actually run for an elected office or accept an appointment to a position in the government of the State of Israel. Zionists and their organizations have engaged in endless lawfare, either as parties or amicus curiae in US Supreme Court cases, in order to secure the right of US citizens living in Israel to vote in Israeli elections or serve in the military without sacrificing their US citizenship, e.g. AFROYIM v. RUSK http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1966/1966_456

    As for your claims about a discriminatory nationality… that’s nonsense. … the state encourages intermarriage between Sephardic and Ashkenazi.

    No, the discriminatory nationality in question is the “Arab”one employed by the Interior Ministry for official purposes in the population registry for non-Jews. You claimed that Palestinians and Mizrahim belong to the same race, but Israel certainly doesn’t officially encourage intermarriage between its other Arab citizens and its “Arab Jews”. In fact it’s prohibited under domestic law. The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that there is no Israeli nationality other than the Jewish people, including the Diaspora. So the unofficial terminology “Israeli Arab” can only logically include the Mizrahi community (which objects to the label).

    • Mooser
      March 20, 2015, 10:39 am

      “Please provide a citation to the relevant….”

      Hostage, that is what we are all waiting for from “JeffyB “.
      Or at least a weather report from Southern Cal. USA, where he lives.
      You have lucked into something quite unique and genuinely American: the Tea Party Zionist.

    • JeffB
      March 20, 2015, 1:00 pm

      @Hostage

      No, the discriminatory nationality in question is the “Arab”one employed by the Interior Ministry for official purposes in the population registry for non-Jews. You claimed that Palestinians and Mizrahim belong to the same race, but Israel certainly doesn’t officially encourage intermarriage between its other Arab citizens and its “Arab Jews”. In fact it’s prohibited under domestic law. The Supreme Court has consistently ruled that there is no Israeli nationality other than the Jewish people, including the Diaspora. So the unofficial terminology “Israeli Arab” can only logically include the Mizrahi community (which objects to the label).

      I see what happened I read your statement, “. In any event, they (Mizrahi Jews and “Israeli Arabs”) aren’t treated equally under the law” as claiming that Mizrahi are discriminated against relative to Ashkenazi since that was the context. Certainly Israeli Arabs face some level of different laws than Mizrahim. Just to make sure we are on the same page

      1) Palestinians and Mizrahim are the same race
      2) Palestinians Muslims and and long time Palestinian Jews are the same ethnicity
      3) Palestinians (Arabs) and Mizrahim are not the same nationality
      3b) It is arguable that 150 years ago Palestinians (Arabs) and Mizrahim were the same nationality (Levant people)
      4) Israeli Arabs and Mizrahim are citizens of the same country
      4b) Palestinians who are not Israeli Arabs and Mizrahim are not citizens of the same country.

      JeffB: sraeli law doesn’t allow someone to have two nationalities

      Hostage: If there aren’t any dual citizens, then why do IDF regulations only ban such individuals from serving in the submarine service

      I said two nationalities. In this context two nationalities on their ID card. Israeli law only allows for one nationality on their ID card. A person with one legal nationality can have dual citizenship.

      No they are still routinely under represented in the media and in top level professional positions,

      How is that inconsistent with a rapidly increasing relative position in economic status and political power? Professions you would expect to remain Ashkenazi as those are traditional European Jew jobs. As for media: all sorts of people are under represented in media. For example in England the percentage of women in theatre just crossed the 1/3rd mark. While at the same time 2/3rds of theatre executive directors are female showing over representation.

      There probably are some lingering problems. Heck the Irish still don’t have equal financial station to WASPs in America. But I’ll stand by the Mizrahi having been raised tremendously. Israel got the lower social classes from Morocco the rich went to France. Even with strong social mobility and no discrimination that’s going to take about 3 generations to work through. Discrimination would be this inequality persisting not it being effectually remedied.

      • just
        March 20, 2015, 1:35 pm

        “But I’ll stand by the Mizrahi having been raised tremendously. Israel got the lower social classes from Morocco the rich went to France.”

        What a perfectly odd and prejudiced thing to say.

        Classic classism/ racism.

      • Hostage
        March 20, 2015, 3:32 pm

        I said two nationalities. In this context two nationalities on their ID card. Israeli law only allows for one nationality on their ID card. A person with one legal nationality can have dual citizenship.

        That was exactly my point. The territory that these people inhabited supposedly became part of Israel by operation of a municipal law. There is no reason, except for a deliberate policy of apartheid, which can explain why the inhabitants didn’t automatically acquire citizenship by operation of that same law. That’s especially true when the so-called Jewish national inhabitants can opt to acquire or retain dual citizenship. Denial of nationality is one of the constituent acts of the Crime of Apartheid cited in Article 2 of the UN convention. Prohibition of mixed marriages is another. http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/apartheid-supp.html

        The Israeli Supreme Court’s repeated refusal to permit every citizen to be registered as an “Israeli national” is a perfect example of a “policy and practice” of discrimination adopted for the purpose segregation or for the establishment and maintenance of domination by one ethic national group over another ethnic national group in order to systematically oppress them. The fact that Israel has subsequently revoked the residency of over a quarter million Palestinian inhabitants who have been displaced from that, and the other occupied territories, is equally telling. You and Mikhael were engaged in artless dissimulation about the ease with which all of these people could supposedly apply for and obtain citizenship; the right to vote; and hold public office in East Jerusalem. Even your meager source explained that two-thirds of the applications were not approved.

        I’d also agree, the whole concept of “settler” is IMHO racist crap. … I find it terrible ironic to see people calling me racist while expressing their deep support for housing segregation.

        If you’re deliberately trying to look absurd, then you’re being wildly successful at it. In most cases we are talking about Israeli criminals who have conspired to convert plundered Palestinian land and/or property for their own personal use and enrichment. FYI, it happens to be the Jews who control the travel and building permit systems that dictate the boundaries in which the disenfranchised Palestinians are allowed to live and work. That system is illegal and immoral, regardless of whether you end up with one state or two. For example, here how Israel’s Holocaust Museum describes a similar process that targeted Jews:

        Expropriation of Jewish property was an essential element of Nazi anti-Jewish policy. The Nazis systematically plundered land and property throughout Europe that had been obtained through hard work and creativity for hundreds of years and which were an important part of Jewish economic and cultural activity.

        — Yad Vashem, “The Holocaust, The Outbreak of World War II and Anti-Jewish Policy: Expansion of German Conquest and Policy Towards Jews” http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/about/02/expansion.asp

        The IDF’s own records reveal that one third of the land occupied by Jewish communal settlements in the Occupied Territories was stolen Palestinian private property. See Steven Erlanger, “West Bank Sites on Private Land, Data Shows”, New York Times, 14 March, 2007 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/14/world/middleeast/14israel.html?pagewanted=print

        The case with plundered Palestinian public land and natural resources is even worse. Article 6 of the Palestine Mandate clearly stipulated that “State lands or waste lands required for public use” were not to be included in the land made available for Jewish settlement. http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp#art6

        After the Elon Moreh case, those “state lands” were precisely the lands that were illegally expropriated for use by the Israeli settlements – and millions of dunams were misappropriated:

        When the occupation began, the land owned by Jews before 1948 and administered by the Jordanian Custodian of Enemy Property in the West Bank was estimated at 30,000 dunums out of a total area of 5.50 million dunums (a dunum is 1,000 sq.m.). These lands were located mainly in the Jerusalem metropolitan area and the Etzion Bloc, situated south of Jerusalem. By 2003, land appropriated, inter alia, for Israeli settlements in the West Bank (including Jerusalem) constituted 2,346,000 dunums i.e. 41.9 percent of the total area of the West Bank.

        — Written Statement submitted by Palestine to the International Court of Justice, 29 January 2004 http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1555.pdf

        There’s nothing hypocritical about someone in the BDS movement advocating for equal rights and a single state solution + removal of the illegal Jewish settlements and restoration of plundered land and property throughout the West Bank, including Jerusalem, “that had been obtained through hard work and creativity for hundreds of years” and which remain an important part of Palestinian economic and cultural activity. Likewise, there is nothing hypocritical about bringing those responsible for war crimes or crimes against humanity (on either side) to justice.

      • Bornajoo
        March 20, 2015, 3:48 pm

        “There’s nothing hypocritical about someone in the BDS movement advocating for equal rights and a single state solution + removal of the illegal Jewish settlements and restoration of plundered land and property throughout the West Bank, including Jerusalem, “that had been obtained through hard work and creativity for hundreds of years” and which remain an important part of Palestinian economic and cultural activity. Likewise, there is nothing hypocritical about bringing those responsible for war crimes or crimes against humanity o either side to justice.”

        +1 Hostage!

      • Citizen
        March 22, 2015, 11:22 am

        “Heck the Irish still don’t have equal financial station to WASPs in America. ”
        Source?

  74. unverified__5ilf90kd
    March 20, 2015, 12:28 pm

    It is so difficult for these so-called liberal Zionists to stop drinking the coolaid. They are still irrational and disingenuous – Beinart for example wrote a recent article in Haaretz where he insists that BDS is wrong because it will only produce a one-state solution which he thinks will be the end of Israel. This is rubbish in my opinion. I and millions of others believe in BDS because we see BDS as the only way to get Israel to accept a just 2-state solution. In my opinion Beinart is only grasping at straws to find a way to discredit BDS because he knows that it will be successful in thwarting a greater Israel. I see Beinart and JStreet as Trojan Horses designed to attract frustrated liberals and control/neutralize them into a state of limbo while AIPAC works to secure a greater Israel. Saying that BDS is only a plot by people who want a one-state solution to destroy Israel is so juvenile that it makes me wonder why an intelligent person like Beinart would say such a thing? Can anyone help me here ?

    • just
      March 20, 2015, 12:39 pm

      “why an intelligent person like Beinart would say such a thing? Can anyone help me here ?”

      His Zionism and love for Israel overcomes his ‘intelligence’. It’s the cult, etc. thing that Avigail Abarbanel and seafoid discuss from the article and in the comments….

      An excerpt from her comments:

      “Israel is a state that was created by, and belongs to a cult. As such, anything truly democratic, universal, any openness to others, to the outside world, is by definition in conflict with the very essence of the cult. In Jewishness and in some sections of Jewish religion, everything and anything is permissible for the purpose of the survival of the group, including inflicting harm on others.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/03/netanyahu-won-what#sthash.CwKdexTb.dpuf

      I can heartily recommend the article/comments.

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 8:46 pm

        “Jews were loyal citizens of Germany. They at that point did not claim allegiance to any foreign power. If Palestinians were willing to be loyal citizens of Israel there wouldn’t an Israeli / Palestinian crisis. Look at the Druze comparatively.”

        “Don’t be schtupid,
        be a smartie!
        Come and join,
        The Nazi Party” “Springtime for Hitler”

        You are so right, “JeffyB”, if only those German Jews had gone all the way, and joiuned up with the prevailing political ideology, everything would have been great!

      • Mooser
        March 20, 2015, 10:33 pm

        ” 50 years later they still do stuff like have black water tanks to indicate their solidarity with West Bank Palestinians”

        Yup, this “JeffyB” is a live one. Just when I think I’ve seen it all, now it’s the scourge of the black water tanks posing an existential danger to the Jewish State. Water tanks.

      • RoHa
        March 21, 2015, 6:25 am

        Black water tanks are contrary to the principles of Jewish plumbing?

      • Hostage
        March 21, 2015, 12:08 pm

        now it’s the scourge of the black water tanks posing an existential danger to the Jewish State. Water tanks. … Black water tanks are contrary to the principles of Jewish plumbing?

        One thing at a time. We are still discussing the aptness of JeffB’s knee jerk reaction to Phil’s comment about the existence of discrimination in Israel on the basis of skin color. Once that’s been established, then we can all move on to the subject of irrational bigotry directed against Palestinians on the basis of their black colored water tanks ;-)

        I always know the way I feel about these things, but Hostage usually knows why I feel that way.

        The feeling is mutual. I admire what you two do here too. Most of the time, I’d rather be making fun of the Zionists than discussing things with them. Your posts usually reflect the way that I feel about their arguments and hasbara talking points.

  75. JeffB
    March 20, 2015, 4:52 pm

    @Hostage

    That was exactly my point. The territory that these people inhabited supposedly became part of Israel by operation of a municipal law. There is no reason, except for a deliberate policy of apartheid, which can explain why the inhabitants didn’t automatically acquire citizenship by operation of that same law.

    The reason is they rejected it. They refused allegiance to the sovereign. One can argue about whether Israel should have respected their desire to remain loyal to Jordan / Palestine or forced them all to be citizens. But being inhabitant doesn’t grant you citizenship. For example in the USA here a Green Card holder is an inhabitant but citizenship requires you swear an oath renouncing foreign allegiance, ““I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen “. 50 years later they still do stuff like have black water tanks to indicate their solidarity with West Bank Palestinians shows that they don’t want citizenship. There is a huge difference between someone being offered a slice of pizza and refusing, and not being offered a slice because of their race. Conflating the two is lying.

    Now the debate about whether Israel should have had that light touch or not is a different one. There are times when Israel does assert absolute sovereign law and you are just as critical so the issue is not their having a soft touch.

    Prohibition of mixed marriages is another.

    That’s too bad. The Druze for example consider the product of a mixed marriage permanently excluded from the community. The Jews don’t allow for mixed marriage. The Muslims are pretty restrictive as well. The UN is just going have to deal on that one that Israel and the overwhelming bulk of its population firmly disagrees across the board with that position. Restrictions on marriage are the overwhelming majority of societies in human history so this is your tendency to define crimes so broadly as to be meaningless. Christianity going back to the right of slaves to marry without their master’s consent in the 2nd has an 1800 year history of comparative liberalism on this issue, so the west is out of step with global standards. But that’s not apartheid.

    The Israeli Supreme Court’s repeated refusal to permit every citizen to be registered as an “Israeli national” is a perfect example of a “policy and practice” of discrimination adopted for the purpose segregation or for the establishment and maintenance of domination by one ethic national group over another ethnic national group in order to systematically oppress them.

    I don’t know about that. The Druze and the Armenians are separately registered which of them is oppressing the other? It is a clearly a practice of classification and registration and an embrace of multiculturalism at a state level. I’m not terrible fond of it either. I’d like there to just to be an Israeli nationality. But at least for now I don’t see the system as necessarily oppressive.

    The fact that Israel has subsequently revoked the residency of over a quarter million Palestinian inhabitants who have been displaced from that, and the other occupied territories, is equally telling.

    We are talking citizenship not residency. The USA has deported a million Mexican illegals in the USA. Residents don’t have the same rights as citizens.

    You and Mikhael were engaged in artless dissimulation about the ease with which all of these people could supposedly apply for and obtain citizenship; the right to vote; and hold public office in East Jerusalem. Even your meager source explained that two-thirds of the applications were not approved.

    Be careful the main reason until the last few years that people applied for citizenship was to travel without losing residency. I don’t think the numbers are nearly that stark in the last decade. I suspect if I looked I’d find pretty strong numbers. People are pretty clear that many Arab Jerusalemites are “upgrading their status” since the 1996 laws have started to bite.

    If you’re deliberately trying to look absurd, then you’re being wildly successful at it. In most cases we are talking about Israeli criminals who have conspired to convert plundered Palestinian land and/or property for their own personal use and enrichment.

    No we aren’t. We are talking about people buying a home from another person or a real estate company and living in it. Same as anywhere else. They are not engaging in a conspiracy to plunder in anyway that every other person on the planet isn’t plundering from the societies that existed before them on the same land. Are the current Palestinians residents engaging in a conspiracy to plunder the Turks or the British?

    FYI, it happens to be the Jews who control the travel and building permit systems that dictate the boundaries in which the disenfranchised Palestinians are allowed to live and work. That system is illegal and immoral, regardless of whether you end up with one state or two. For example, here how Israel’s Holocaust Museum describes a similar process that targeted Jews:

    Jews were loyal citizens of Germany. They at that point did not claim allegiance to any foreign power. If Palestinians were willing to be loyal citizens of Israel there wouldn’t an Israeli / Palestinian crisis. Look at the Druze comparatively.

    The IDF’s own records reveal that one third of the land occupied by Jewish communal settlements in the Occupied Territories was stolen Palestinian private property.

    And if that’s true the sovereign, Israel, is responsible for cleaning that up. Right now we have a situation where the Palestinians refuse to agree to sell and buy land like normal Israelis and often enforce this through broadly supported terrorist organizations. That complicates things a lot. On balance I think Israel has been a bit unfair regarding compensating the Palestinians. On the other hand, every house, every inch of property is ultimately Israel’s. The same way that every inch of property in New Jersey is subject to the state of New Jersey. So there may be claims against individual Israelis including the JNF or the claims that the state has been unfair. But ultimately it is the state that controls the distribution of property.

    As far as the refusal to sell and killing people that do, The state of Israel has to decide what to do with criminality the same way the USA has to decide what to do with the property of drug dealers.

    The case with plundered Palestinian public land and natural resources is even worse. Article 6 of the Palestine Mandate clearly stipulated that “State lands or waste lands required for public use” were not to be included in the land made available for Jewish settlement.

    First off under the League the idea was a Jewish Homeland and even that got restricted. Moreover it isn’t relevant. The League was violently racist against Jews which is one of the reasons the solution to the problem of European Jewry wasn’t solved by just moving them to a place where they wouldn’t be killed.

    But ignoring the history the whole idea that there is Jew land and Arab land is racism that you are accusing the Jews of. Either you have different laws for different nations and the entire first part of your post where you take umbrage at such laws is ridiculous, or you don’t support such laws and there is equality. Now if there is full equality then you are breaking with the UN’s position. The original claim was not you weren’t accurately reflecting the UN’s anti-colonial racism the claim was that the distinctions between settlements and villages is pure racism. International law per the UN and the 2SS is racist. I’m not disagreeing the Mondoweiss belief that untermensch Judenschwein outside the proscribed area are criminals is in line with the UN.

    You have to decide which position you want:

    Option 1: Jews have the right to build homes on block A but not block B and then you can’t whine about Israel’s discriminatory laws…. But you do get to attack settlements.

    Option 2: There are no settlers. Everyone regardless of nationality should be able to live anywhere and then you do get to complain about Israel’s laws but not about settlements.

    The issue of property disputes comes after once the sovereign is decided upon that sovereign can decide whether title did or did not properly transfer.

    • Hostage
      March 20, 2015, 8:44 pm

      The reason is they rejected it. They refused allegiance to the sovereign. … There is a huge difference between someone being offered a slice of pizza and refusing, and not being offered a slice because of their race. Conflating the two is lying.

      What’s the difference between that position and the (now) moot arguments employed by the South African government to justify its own occupation of neighboring Namibia? It complained that Namibians refused to pay allegiance or renounce their solidarity with SWAPO, et al. SWAPO, the ANC, and the PLO happened to be recognized by the UN General Assembly as provisional governments or national liberation movements entitled to resist foreign occupation and domination and to exercise self determination.

      So what if they refused? After all we are tallking about an Israeli regime that was committing both war crimes and a crime against humanity against the inhabitants by the action it decided to take. The prohibition of apartheid and annexations are part of customary law reflected in Article 1 and 2(4) of the UN Charter and in the Declaration on Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, GA Res. 2625 (XXV), annex (Oct. 24, 1970). Israeli lawmakers only represented a belligerent occupying power, which was bereft of any legitimate source of sovereignty over East Jerusalem.

      In any event, Article 3 of the Apartheid Convention explains that the perpetrator’s motive or rationale is completely irrelevant:

      International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the motive involved, to individuals, members of organizations and institutions and representatives of the State, whether residing in the territory of the State in which the acts are perpetrated or in some other State, whenever they:

      (a) Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the commission of the acts mentioned in article II of the present Convention;

      (b) Directly abet, encourage or co-operate in the commission of the crime of apartheid.

      http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/apartheid-supp.html

      But being inhabitant doesn’t grant you citizenship. For example in the USA here a Green Card holder is an inhabitant but citizenship requires you swear an oath renouncing foreign allegiance, …. We are talking about people buying a home from another person or a real estate company and living in it. Same as anywhere else.

      Palestinians don’t need green cards, since they aren’t tourists or immigrants of the territory in question. Denying the entire indigenous population citizenship; equal rights and representation in “a Government representing the whole people belonging to the territory without distinction of any kind”; or the right of self-determination and independence is precisely the definition of apartheid adopted by the UN and subsequently employed by the ICJ in the Namibia case. In fact, the government of South Africa employed the same line of argumentation that you have here in an attempt to justify its own illegal occupation. FYI, being a habitual resident of the former Ottoman territory happened to be the basis for acquiring Palestinian citizenship by operation of both municipal and international law, i.e. the Palestinian Citizenship Order in Council, 1925 and Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne.:

      SECTION II .
      NATIONALITY.
      ARTICLE 30.

      Turkish subjects habitually resident in territory which in accordance with the provisions of the present Treaty is detached from Turkey will become ipsofacto, in the conditions laid down by the local law, nationals of the State to which such territory is transferred.

      http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Treaty_of_Lausanne

      That was simply a reflection of customary law or the “Law of Nations”, which had long since declared that a change of sovereignty can’t be employed to revoke the inhabitants right of residence and private property rights, e.g.:

      The modern usage of nations, which has become law, would be violated; that sense of justice and of right which is acknowledged and felt by the whole civilized world would be outraged if private property should be generally confiscated and private rights annulled on a change in the sovereignty of the country. The people change their allegiance, their relation to their ancient sovereign is dissolved, but their relations to each other and their rights of property remain undisturbed.”

      — U.S. Supreme Court “United States v. Percheman, 32 U.S. 7 Pet. 51 51 (1832)” https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/32/51/

      The fact is that the government of Israel, the settlers, their banks, and their real estate companies were advised decades ago that they were all engaging in a illegal or criminal enterprise. 10 percent of the illegal settlers hold dual US citizenship according to figures supplied by the US Consulate in Jerusalem. The US State Department has published advisories for years warning against attempts to either buy or lease property in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and East Jerusalem.

      • Mooser
        March 21, 2015, 12:07 pm

        I read “Hostage”s reply to “JeffyB” last night before I went to bed. I had a feeling that would be the last we heard from “JeffyB”, and what do you know, it was.

        I don’t know as I’ve ever seen Hostage start off a comment with “What a load of crap” before. Methinks Hostage has JeffyB’s measure.

    • Philemon
      March 20, 2015, 10:18 pm

      Oh, JeffB, you are such a Weird-Gawd-Helpus!

      There I was thinking you thought France was the role model for Israel. Alas.

      By the way, property rights, very important. The “sovereign” must tread very carefully.

    • just
      March 20, 2015, 11:29 pm

      “For example in the USA here a Green Card holder is an inhabitant but citizenship requires you swear an oath renouncing foreign allegiance, ““I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen “. ”

      Can you explain why so many Israelis also have citizenship in the US? Or why US citizens serve in the IOF?

      • Citizen
        March 22, 2015, 10:50 am

        There’s more American jews in the IDF than in the US Military?

      • Citizen
        March 22, 2015, 10:53 am

        US citizenship rejection was turned into a subjective intent test, thanks to a jewish plaintiff at the SCOTUS. Prior thereto, with a latino plaintiff, it was not so.

    • tree
      March 21, 2015, 8:29 pm

      50 years later they still do stuff like have black water tanks to indicate their solidarity with West Bank Palestinians shows that they don’t want citizenship.

      I don’t often read JeffB’s comments because they are too long winded and contain too much bullshit for me to ingest, but I have to say that this statement of his is incredibly stupid and racist. Not that it differentiates itself from most of his other comments; it doesn’t. But apparently my conservative and Israel-loving (mostly out of preferred ignorance) ex-husband is showing his solidarity with West Bank Palestinians by having a black plastic water tank to store his well water according to Jeff! Who knew?

      I’m sure most the commenters here know what a crock of shit that statement of JeffB’s is, but in case anyone wants a little background on black plastic water tanks, here it is:

      Black plastic is preferred over white plastic because it tends to be more UV stabilized which helps it avoid getting brittle and developing micro-cracks which leak. And its opacity prevents light from getting to the water, which would encourage the growth of algae and light-sensitive microbes, neither of which are good for drinking water. Rooftop tanks are used to help increase water pressure , since water pressure is directly related to the height from which water falls. And they also provide running water when the municipal water is shut off, which happens a lot in Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, in comparison to what happens in Jewish neighborhoods. An example here:

      http://972mag.com/photos-13-days-without-water-in-east-jerusalem/88497/

      There are fewer individual water tanks in Jewish neighborhoods, since they don’t have to rely on them for their water. And the few that I have seen, while painted white, tend to be metal (most likely stainless steel) so they are likewise protected from UV rays and light. But metal tanks are much more expensive than plastic so for the most part are out of the question for the poorer Palestinian neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. Why do the Palestinians have to buy new expensive white stainless steel water tanks to “assimilate” when the old black plastic ones work just as well ?To state that the logical and least expensive solution of utilizing a black plastic water tank is a reason to deny someone citizenship makes as much sense as stating that eating Ramen noodles instead of steak is grounds for treason.

      There is a huge difference between someone being offered a slice of pizza and refusing, and not being offered a slice because of their race. Conflating the two is lying.

      Yes, and you did just that. You lied.

      • just
        March 21, 2015, 8:41 pm

        Bravo, tree!

        Many thanks.

      • Shingo
        March 21, 2015, 8:50 pm

        don’t often read JeffB’s comments because the are too long winded and contain too much bullshit for me to ingest, but I have to say that this statement of his is incredibly stupid and racist.

        Hats off to you Tree for bothering to respond to JeffB’s demented and delusional diatribes. Like you , I find just reading his verbose excrement about as pleasant and swallowing razor blades and washing it down with a gallon of rancid molasses.

        JeffB sounds like a new generation of Richard Witty, who also used to post demented arguments, though he was even less coherent, though more economical. It’s almost as if these nut jobs have been specially groomed to bore us to death and trying to grind down out intellect with their meandering and incoherent diatribes.

        It reminds me of a favorite saying – don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

      • eljay
        March 21, 2015, 9:57 pm

        || Shingo: JeffB sounds like a new generation of Richard Witty, who also used to post demented arguments, though he was even less coherent, though more economical. ||

        I find y.f. to be more like R.W.: A bit put off by some of the nastier business of Zio-supremacism but, overall, accepting of the “necessity” of it.

        Guys like JeffB, Mikhael and ivri (among others) are very much like former MW regular eee (which is why I grace their usernames with those three letters): They are unapologetically hard-core supremacists.

      • Mooser
        March 22, 2015, 11:37 am

        “don’t often read JeffB’s comments because the are too long winded and contain too much bullshit for me to ingest”

        Oh yes, “JeffyB” leads the league in TL,TS-DR stats*

        (*Too Long, Too Stupid, Didn’t Read)

  76. Kathleen
    March 21, 2015, 9:59 am

    So sad to watch MSM host and guest always repeat the pledge of allegiance to Israel on programs. We know our Reps constantly back up a bit of criticism of Israel with “Israel is our bff” “our strongest ally” “unbreakable bond” yada yada.

    This morning Jonathan Capehart sitting in for Kornacki on MSNBC’s Up said he is “hesitant to say” that the bond between the U.S. and Israel could be broken. Then one of the women on the panel (which had been talking about race issues) came out and said the pledge that the bond between the U.S. and Israel is “unbreakable.” The Republican woman on the panel actually came out and said there are real policy “differences” between the Obama administration and Netanyahu. That the policy differences come first then the possibly personality rift between Obama and Netanayahu.

    I think Obama is the first President to really stand up to Israel based on their actions. I know 41 and Baker threatened to withhold aid etc. But Obama’s stance is really standing out.

    Wondering if anyone has heard or read anything about how absurd and inconsistent Starbuck’s Howard Shultz staunch support for Israeltotally contradict’s his effort to focus on race issues here in the states

    • Citizen
      March 22, 2015, 10:45 am

      Starbucks won’t push a “let’s chat” between Palestinians and Jewish Israelis in any coffee place within any territory controlled by Israel. Why not? No Starbucks over there? Or, $7.00 per hour is a bit weak to pressure employees to be diplomats?

  77. Kathleen
    March 21, 2015, 12:00 pm

    Last night (Friday) on Hardball (Jonathan Capehart in for Matthews) it was so disappointing to hear Howard Fineman claim that Iran has made “threats to destroy Israel.” Fineman fell in line by repeating those lies. Sad

    Capehart keeps singing the praises of Starbuck’s Howard Schultz efforts on the race issue here in the states. Seems to be completely aware or incapable of connecting the dots between Schultz full on economic support for whatever Israel does…and how racist it is

  78. JeffB
    March 21, 2015, 3:45 pm

    @Hostage

    What’s the difference between that position [held by Muslim Jerusalemites] and the (now) moot arguments employed by the South African government to justify its own occupation of neighboring Namibia?

    South Africa never asserted that Namibia was part of South Africa. They wanted to have this concept of a provence that wasn’t formally incorporated in South Africa neither independent nor part of South Africa. That’s nothing like Israel’s status with Jerusalem which they have formally annexed. So the analogy doesn’t hold up at all.

    Where they analogy might hold up is Area-A or Area-B.

    The prohibition of apartheid and annexations

    That’s you conflating multiple issues. There is no prohibition against arson and petty theft in state laws. Those are separate crimes. Being guilty of one has no bearing on being guilty of the other. Moreover if you are talking about the same piece of property you can accuse someone of having burned it, or you can accuse them of having stolen it. But you would need to construct a fairly tortured scenario where both are true.

    The areas that Israel annexed it has granted full civil rights and the vote ergo no apartheid. The areas under a military dictatorship aren’t annexed.

    Israeli lawmakers only represented a belligerent occupying power, which was bereft of any legitimate source of sovereignty over East Jerusalem.

    Bull, they have the consent and support of the governed which is the ultimate legitimate source. They lack the UN’s endorsement so I get the UN doesn’t agree. That part of the problem that the UN is enemy of people to have self determination and not just with respect to Israel. If the definition of legitimacy is slavish adherence to the immorality of the UN’s anti-democratic principles then you are right. But we’ve talked about this before and I go with older international law that rejected the authority of the Pope even under the new name of “United Nations” to determine national borders and instead holds that governments are empowered by their people.

    As for your ending comment you are conflating again. There are two issues:

    a) Does the government of Israel have the right to decide property disputes between its citizens.

    b) Must the government of Israel grant citizenship to all in a territory.

    Those aren’t remotely the same question. We were discussing (a). Bring in (b) doesn’t address the question. Israel’s claim is that Jerusalem is fully Israeli and subject to Israeli law. Israel is the arbiter of who owns property in its territory. Obviously it can’t discriminate in how it administers justice but that’s a far different claim than that it can’t administer justice.

    As for (b) the answer is certainly “yes for all who desire it”. . Showing evidence that states are obligated to offer it doesn’t prove one way or another if states are obligated to force people to accept a citizenship they refuse. That’s what you need to show.

    • Shingo
      March 21, 2015, 5:35 pm

      Bull, they have the consent and support of the governed which is the ultimate legitimate source.

      Rubbish. Israel has no more legitimacy beyond the legal borders of the state of Israel than Saddam had in Kuwait. You are simply sidestepping the basic fact that beyond those borders, Israel has no legal authority, therefore Israeli lawmakers only represented a belligerent occupying power and nothing more,

      They lack the UN’s endorsement so I get the UN doesn’t agree.

      Nor does any other country in the world, nor does the ICJ.

      That part of the problem that the UN is enemy of people to have self determination and not just with respect to Israel.

      Seriously, you sound deluded and stoned. If Israel cannot present a legal argument to prove it’s legal claims to the territory outside it’s legal borders, then it clearly has no legal claim other than to enforce it’s control vy means of it’s military. Control and occupation of EJ has nothing to do with the right of Israel to have self determination. It’s not even relevant to the debate.

      If the definition of legitimacy is slavish adherence to the immorality of the UN’s anti-democratic principles then you are right.

      What is immoral about the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions? You and simply making the anti intellectual argument that not giving Israel everything it wants is immoral.

      But we’ve talked about this before and I go with older international law that rejected the authority of the Pope even under the new name of “United Nations” to determine national borders and instead holds that governments are empowered by their people.

      What are you blabbering about? Israel still has not declared it’s national borders dufus which is one of the main problems.

      a) Does the government of Israel have the right to decide property disputes between its citizens.

      Within the legal borders of Israel ONLY.

      b) Must the government of Israel grant citizenship to all in a territory.

      What do you mean “a territory?” If that territory is not Israel then clearly not.

      Israel’s claim is that Jerusalem is fully Israeli and subject to Israeli law. Israel is the arbiter of who owns property in its territory.

      No. Just because Israel claims control of Jerusalem by way of it’s military occupation doesn’t mean it has any legal right to do so. The fact you don’t question the legitimacy of Israel’s
      claims shows you have no credibility on this topic.

      Obviously it can’t discriminate in how it administers justice but that’s a far different claim than that it can’t administer justice.

      That’s what YOU need to show. What legal right does Israel have?

      • just
        March 21, 2015, 5:57 pm

        +1!!!

        Shingo, it’s great to have you back!

      • Shingo
        March 21, 2015, 6:06 pm

        Thanks Just but I have never left.

        MW is the first of 2 or 3 blogs I read every day and with the quality of the articles and commentary, I feel I have little more to add. There are usually one of more comments already posted that encapsulate by sentiments by the time I read MW, that I feel it unnecessary to repeat the same argument.

        Plus I bought a business recently and I have little time these days.

        I am seriously delighted to see Hostage back. Now if only we can get Shmuel back!!

      • just
        March 21, 2015, 6:18 pm

        Congratulations, Shingo!

        “I am seriously delighted to see Hostage back. Now if only we can get Shmuel back!!”

        Big ditto to that. Annie recently reported that Shmuel is also quite busy… writing, teaching, etc., and plans on a return.

      • Shingo
        March 21, 2015, 7:05 pm

        Thanks guys,

        You are all like family to me. Even Hop and Yona for that matter.

        And happy to report Ritzl that the business is going gang busters, so all is good.

      • ritzl
        March 21, 2015, 6:33 pm

        Great comment, Shingo, in a string of great comments.

        “Control and occupation of EJ has nothing to do with the right of Israel to have self determination. It’s not even relevant to the debate.”

        Love it! (And I’m in gaping awe of talknic’s meatgrinding patience in dealing with ppl who, all evidence to the contrary, believe that it iS relevant.)

        Good luck with your business.

      • Annie Robbins
        March 21, 2015, 8:16 pm

        congrats on your new entrepreneurship shingo!!!

      • Walid
        March 21, 2015, 10:48 pm

        Best wishes for the new business, Shingo.

      • Shingo
        March 21, 2015, 11:13 pm

        Thanks Walid

    • Hostage
      March 21, 2015, 9:01 pm

      South Africa never asserted that Namibia was part of South Africa.

      That’s incorrect. The first request for an ICJ Advisory Opinion over “The International Status of South West Africa” (aka Namibia) was the result of a letter from the South African government dated 26 August 1946. It contained a proposal to unilaterally terminate the LoN mandate and the “territorial integration in, and the annexation to, the Union of South Africa
      of the mandated Territory of South-West Africa”. It decided on that course of action rather than grant the inhabitants their independence or establish a UN trusteeship as the General Assembly had originally requested. South Africa argued that it had always been understood that it had been promised the mandated territory, in exactly the same fashion that some Zionists today still insist that they were promised all of the territory in Palestine and Transjordan. The letter asked that the plan be placed on the agenda of the General Assembly. The Assembly refused to approve the plan and instead requested an opinion from the International Court.

      That’s nothing like Israel’s status with Jerusalem which they have formally annexed.

      Correction: The UN Security Council implemented a regime of non-recognition which decided that the Basic Law Jerusalem was null and void. It did that on the basis of the very same longstanding principles, i.e. non-annexation and the obligation to treat the well-being and development of the peoples living there as “a sacred trust of civilization”. See the relevant ICJ Advisory Opinions cited below.

      FYI, the Basel Platform of the Zionist Congress implicitly acknowledged that their national home could only be established in accordance with public law. But what you are describing is a flagrant violation of public international law. Unilaterally imposed dispositions of territories and their populations as a result of wars had been outlawed in the 19th century by both the Concert of Europe and the First International Conference of American States. That resulted in the adoption of customary prohibitions contained in the Hague rules of 1907 regarding belligerent and armistice occupation regimes, which in turn led to the adoption of the LoN system of mandates as “sacred trusts of civilization”. See page 7-18 of the ICJ’s S.W. Africa opinion http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/10/1891.pdf and pages 33-35 of the ICJ’s advisory opinion on the Wall. See also Eyal Benvenisti, “The Origins of the Concept of Belligerent Occupation, Law and History Review 26.3 (2008), http://archive.is/E8yI and get yourself some clue.

      The areas that Israel annexed it has granted full civil rights and the vote ergo no apartheid. The areas under a military dictatorship aren’t annexed.

      That’s obviously false in the case of East Jerusalem. I’ve already pointed out that Israel did not provide the inhabitants of the territory it annexed citizenship, which is a basic civil right. It still refuses to honor requests or petitions for citizenship from the inhabitants in the majority cases. Israel even revoked the residency rights of thousands of them, while expropriating all of their land and property for the personal use of Jewish settlers.

      That’s you conflating multiple issues.

      One of your basic problems seems to be literacy, The items mentioned above are all flagrant violations or outright denial of the most basic of “civil rights” and they all fall under the heading of the crime of apartheid . They are not separate offenses. They are explicitly mentioned in the apartheid convention. It prohibits “Any measures including legislative measures”, which includes the use of legislative or de facto annexation to carry out expropriation of landed property belonging to another group, denial of nationality, prohibition of mixed marriages, & etc. http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/apartheid-supp.html

      Bull, they have the consent and support of the governed which is the ultimate legitimate source

      I won’t even dignify that with an answer, other than to point out that there were only 17,000 Jewish refugees from all of Palestine after the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreement with Jordan. Even if all of them had been from East Jerusalem, they still would have only constituted a minority of its total population.

  79. JeffB
    March 21, 2015, 9:47 pm

    @Philemon

    How is being culturally French versus a citizen of France different from being culturally Jewish versus a citizen of Israel?

    I don’t even understand what you are asking. I’m also not sure if I see the connection. The question being discussed is what is means for France to be French. I don’t really even understand

    And how about all the Jewish people who decline to be Israeli?

    What about them? . Individuals can take any path, the same way individual cells fall off a body or die every minute without changing the nature of the body. The question is not what do individuals do in specific but what’s happening as a broader movement. And the broader movement, Jews are emptying out of every country on the planet they lived in and concentrating reversing the diaspora. That migration is either pulling them out of the Jewish religion / nation on a generational basis or pulling them into being Israeli. Judaism is a in a transition period and Judaism the religion exists side by side with Jewish nationality in Israel. The presence of Israel is morphing Judaism and the Jewish people are rapidly migrating to Israel. A century from now there might only a be 1m people who still identify with Judaism who don’t have strong ties to Israel.

    200 years from now or less Judaism is just be “the Israeli religion” and talking about Jews who aren’t connected to Israel becomes some sort of fringe idea exclusive to Jewish based cults but having no impact on the broader religion.

    As you point out, many citizens of France might not be all that culturally French, but they have full legal rights. And sometimes they provide welcome variations in cuisine, as well.

    Of course. And that can be true of Israel as well. Israel doesn’t need all Israelis to be Jewish for Israel to be Jewish.

    Being French, culturally, as I have understood it, is speaking French and maintaining enlightenment values, as in liberté, égalité, and fraternité.

    It is much more than that. A French speaking African Muslim society with liberté, égalité, and fraternité would not be culturally French.

    It is not a racial identity. There’s no inheritance, or birth, blood, nation, skin-color, religion or name involved.

    Neither is Judaism racial. As for inheritance a disproportionate number of the people who are French in 2015 were born to people who were French in 1985. That wouldn’t be true if it weren’t inherited. As for religion France is absolutely culturally Catholic and mostly religiously Catholic. That’s one of the reasons French Jews have had a trouble being truly French even though in so many other respects they are culturally French.

    • Citizen
      March 22, 2015, 10:15 am

      There is a French nationality. The highest court in Israel has declared there is no Israeli nationality. Think about it, JeffB

      • Mooser
        March 22, 2015, 11:31 am

        “Think about it, JeffB”

        Citizen, you are certainly an optimist. How can he think when he has so much to tell us? And we know so little, and he knows so much?
        I don’t think it leaves JeffyB any time to think, if he knew how to do it in the first place.

        I very much appreciate Hostage and others, tho.

      • JeffB
        March 22, 2015, 12:48 pm

        @Citizen

        That’s mostly the issue of what it is called.

        There most certainly is a Jewish-Israeli nationality that exists today in Israel. They Israeli government classifies these people as citizenship: Israeli, nationality: Jewish. Now there is an issue of whether such people can have a nationality called “Israeli” distinct from Jewish. Zionism argues that Israel is Jewish the way France is French. There is no broad nationality identity for the territory France other than the French nationality. And the court was saying the analogous situation applies to Israel. You can’t have two nationalities in Israeli law and Jews in Israel already have one.

      • Hostage
        March 22, 2015, 7:42 pm

        There is no broad nationality identity for the territory France other than the French nationality. And the court was saying the analogous situation applies to Israel.

        Are you really that dense? The State of Israel maintains a population registry where it catalogs its own citizens under 120-plus different “nationalities”.

        The persons who are considered Jewish nationals in accordance with the Law of Return have superior rights and privileges under a plethora of state laws. French citizens are French, but there is no such thing as an “Israeli” nationality that includes Arab persons or doesn’t include Jews living everywhere else worldwide. That’s what the court actually said in a line of cases starting with this decision:

        There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people. . . . The Jewish people is composed not only of those residing in Israel but also of Diaspora Jewries.”

        — See CA 630/70 Tamarin v. Israel 26(1) IsrSC 197, 225 [1970]

        I’m pretty certain you know that there is no French parallel or analogy.

      • Shingo
        March 23, 2015, 3:03 am

        There most certainly is a Jewish-Israeli nationality that exists today in Israel. They Israeli government classifies these people as citizenship: Israeli, nationality: Jewish.

        No, the Supreme Court rejected the existence of the Israeli nationality.

        And the court was saying the analogous situation applies to Israel. You can’t have two nationalities in Israeli law and Jews in Israel already have one.

        Wrong. Israel insists that there are. Jewish and non Jewish.

  80. JeffB
    March 22, 2015, 9:03 pm

    @Hostage

    Are you really that dense? The State of Israel maintains a population registry where it catalogs its own citizens under 120-plus different “nationalities”.

    Hostage. You are jumping into a conversation about the topic about how France is French as a matter of nationalities not a question of laws. Israel uses the term nationalities but the state exists to advance the interests of one of those the Jewish-Israeli nationality.

    French citizens are French [in the national sense]

    No they aren’t. That’s precisely what the Muslim radicalization debate in France is all about they are French to a greater or lesser extent. And non French citizens can often be more French than people who in a legal sense hold citizenship.

    There is no Israeli nation separate from the Jewish people. . . . The Jewish people is composed not only of those residing in Israel but also of Diaspora Jewries.”

    Exactly the judge is talking about the Jewish people not the Israeli citizens. Obviously diaspora jews aren’t Israeli citizens at all.

    • Mooser
      March 22, 2015, 10:22 pm

      ” Israel uses the term nationalities but the state exists to advance the interests of one of those the Jewish-Israeli nationality.”

      Oh, I see. Now, there’s a legitimate reason on which to base a state!
      And a legal one, too. Is that what Israel told the UN when it proclaimed statehood?
      After all, we were just discussing an another thread, the horrible fate of Jews in the United States, where the State does not operate to advance their Jewish interests. And we all know what happened to those misguided Jews who came to the US.

    • Hostage
      March 22, 2015, 11:32 pm

      French citizens are French [in the national sense]

      No they aren’t. That’s precisely what the Muslim radicalization debate in France is all about.

      That’s completely false. As a matter of both the facts and the law French citizens are French nationals and no one there is debating the application of an Israel-style two-tiered municipal legal system, which would provide superior civil or political rights and privileges to persons of French descendancy, while treating the other indigenous non-French citizens as if they are aliens or lower, second class citizens in their own country of origin. Israel has actually done that. It has even adopted dozens of even more discriminatory laws, policies, and practices, since the UN and it’s own Or Commission concluded that Israeli Arabs were subjected to systematic and pervasive discrimination. The relevant treaty monitoring body has repeatedly observed that the lack of a constitutionally-guaranteed right of equality and maintenance of separate Jewish and Arab sectors and levels of funding in the areas of housing, access to public lands, and education raise serious issues in connection with the prohibition of apartheid and racial segregation contained in article 3 of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

      Exactly the judge is talking about the Jewish people not the Israeli citizens. Obviously diaspora jews aren’t Israeli citizens at all.

      That is also incorrect. The Judge was saying that “Israeli” is merely a synonym for “Jewish” – and that only persons of that nationality are entitled to citizenship under the Law of Return. That includes Diaspora Jews, but not Palestinians (aka “Arabs”) born in the country, who are never considered to be “Israeli” for the purposes of the Law of Return. FYI, that policy and practice would be a flagrant violation of the law of the EU (acquis communautaire) on human rights, racism, and xenophobia. Being registered as “Jewish for the purposes of the Law of Return” is a formal legal status or legal prerequisite to enjoyment of a plethora of other statutory rights and privileges in the State of Israel. Try to get some clue.

      • JeffB
        March 23, 2015, 8:22 am

        @Hostage

        That is also incorrect. The Judge was saying that “Israeli” is merely a synonym for “Jewish” – and that only persons of that nationality are entitled to citizenship under the Law of Return.

        Exactly. You are still equivocating between two different meanings of nationality. Let’s try this a different way making the distinction explicit. The Judge is saying:
        1) There is a Jewish nationality. That is not something the state is creating but rather a pre-existing group. Call that “nationality1”
        2) There is an Israeli citizenship. There are people of Jewish nationality who are not Israeli citizens. There are Israeli citizens that aren’t of the Jewish nationality. So citizenship is not the same as nationality1.
        3) The state of Israel has a nationality classification system for its citizens. Call that nationality2.
        Note there are citizens who are not Jewish in the nationality2 sense. So citizenship is broader than nationality.

        The state aims that Jews in the nationality2 are people who are both Jews in the nationality1 sense and citizens of Israel. That is to say nationality1 and nationality2 are not the same thing even Israeli law because most diaspora Jews are nationality1 Jewish but not nationality2 Jewish.

        For France.
        There is a French nation which is Catholic, French speaking ect… (call that nationality1)
        There are French citizens. Many French nationals in the nationality1 sense are not French citizens. Some French citizens are not French nationals in the nationality1 sense. There is a concentration of such people particularly among the Muslim community which is what “failure to assimilate” means.
        France does not have a national classification system so there is no legal nationality2.
        However, one can construct nationality2 French by defining it as people who are nationality1 French and also French citizens.

        The fact that the French state doesn’t make that definition explicit doesn’t mean it can’t be made.

        ______

        As for pervasive discrimination against Israeli Arabs and the state of Israel that’s really confusing the issue I’m talking about with RoHa. Especially since you are conflating Palestinians who are citizens and those who live under the military dictatorship in the West Bank. I agree there is some discrimination though I think that has decreased as the economic statistics show. There is not a separate set of laws designed to create a permanent underclass or separation because otherwise the data on economic progress wouldn’t be happening. Discrimination, while troublesome, is not apartheid. I wouldn’t call it “racial discrimination” either because there is clearly not a racial component. But I agree that there are lower levels of public services funding, that these lower levels are harmful to Israeli Arabs and that Israel shouldn’t be doing that.

        I should mention though that the sort of discrimination in terms of lower funding for Muslim neighborhoods is present in France towards Muslims and the USA towards Blacks as well. There is nothing uniquely Israeli about that.

      • Hostage
        March 23, 2015, 12:00 pm

        Exactly. You are still equivocating between two different meanings of nationality … So citizenship is not the same as nationality1.
        3) The state of Israel has a nationality classification system for its citizens. Call that nationality2.

        No, you are engaging in deliberate dishonesty, dissimulation, and obfuscation. The Supreme Court of Israel has explicitly ruled on a number of occasions that there is only one meaning of Jewish nationality and that it is always synonymous with the term Israeli – which cannot be legally applied to the non-Jewish citizens of the State of Israel. There is no “French” parallel or analogy for any such two-tiered racist legal policy and practice whereby some French citizens can be excluded from the legal rights or immunities pertaining to French nationality. Full stop.

        Likewise, your exposition on self-determination of peoples is at odds with the applicable principles of customary and conventional international law. Article 1 of the UN Charter contains an obligation for member States to respect “the principle of equality and self-determination of peoples”. It makes it perfectly clear that those are two indivisible parts of one legal precept and that member states are prohibited from discriminating against their citizens on the basis of distinctions as to race, sex, language, or religion. In both the Namibian and the Palestinian Wall case, the ICJ findings of fact were grounded in that treaty obligation. The Court found that the policies and practices adopted by the governments of South Africa and Israel had violated the UN Charter obligation – and East Jerusalem was cited as one of the specific examples.

        The right of self-determination is explained in:
        *The UN Charter
        *The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and The UN Human Rights Conventions,
        *The Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,
        *The Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples,
        *The Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action

        Those documents make it perfectly clear that the right of self-determination of peoples:

        shall not be construed as authorizing or encouraging any action which would dismember or impair, totally or in part, the territorial integrity or political unity of sovereign and independent States conducting themselves in compliance with the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples and thus possessed of a Government representing the whole people belonging to the territory without distinction of any kind.

        That means that ethnic or religious groups of people do not have a right of self determination or secession when they participate freely in a democratic government that adequately represents “the whole people belonging to a territory”. Ethnic Diasporas inherently share territories with other peoples and do not have an automatic right to establish a separate state of their own on the grounds of self-determination. In most cases they don’t constitute the entire population of a region and can’t satisfy the territorial aspects or criteria for “statehood”, i.e. a population, a defined territory, a government, and the capacity to conduct foreign relations – without violating the rights of other peoples. Ethnic groups don’t ever have the right to establish “territorial integrity” through deportations, forced population transfers of others, or revocation of residency or private property rights on the basis of ethnic distinctions or so-called “sovereignty”.

  81. JeffB
    March 22, 2015, 9:10 pm

    @Shingo

    Bull, they have the consent and support of the governed which is the ultimate legitimate source.

    Rubbish. Israel has no more legitimacy beyond the legal borders of the state of Israel than Saddam had in Kuwait.

    States don’t have a right to self determination people do. Self determination is the assertion that people have the right to say they no longer wish to have one sovereign and exchange them for another. The UN is an apologist for dictatorship. But there are other traditions that assert a right of people exist to choose their government for example:

    That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    The assertion was the people of East Jerusalem have the right under self determination to choose to be governed by Israel.

    • Mooser
      March 22, 2015, 10:24 pm

      Gee, JeffyB, seems sort of funny to use the American Declaration of Independence in support of Israel. What the hell does it have to do with them?

      • piotr
        March 23, 2015, 12:22 am

        I can see folks in Lugansk People’s Republic hanging those words on the wall.

        By the way, Declaration of Independence is a very good motivation for Israel: “the Rights of the People” clearly did not cover Negroes or Native Americans. Similarly, “Safety and Happiness” of Arab residents of Jerusalem are pretty low on the list of Israeli priorities.

        “And non French citizens can often be more French than people who in a legal sense hold citizenship.” I met a number of people with French mother tongue, but non-citizens of France would insists that they are Belgian, or Swiss, Canadian etc. Bad example.

    • Shingo
      March 23, 2015, 3:14 am

      States don’t have a right to self determination people do.

      Only if they are legally allowed to reside within a certain territory. Illegal aliens have no right to self determination and therefore neither do Jewish Israelis in East Jerusalem.

      Self determination is the assertion that people have the right to say they no longer wish to have one sovereign and exchange them for another.

      No it’s not. That’s some diatribe you just made up.

      The UN is an apologist for dictatorship.

      What a load of crap. The UN is an apologist for powerful states over weaker ones. Israel enjoys many privileges under the UN and protections. The absurdity of your argument is underlines by the fact that Israel insists on remaining a UN member as a pillar fo it’s legitimacy.

      But there are other traditions that assert a right of people exist to choose their government for example

      Again I repeat, the government they chose has no legitimacy outside the borders of the state.

      That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

      ….ONLY within the LEGAL and LEGITIMATE borders of the state in question. Spin it all you want. You can polish that turd with all your might and passion but , you can’t get away from the simple fact that legal borders of the territory in question. No one is questioning the right of Israeli Jews to exercise these rights within Israel. Those rights end at the border and East Jerusalem is outside that border.

      The assertion was the people of East Jerusalem have the right under self determination to choose to be governed by Israel.

      Are you seriously that dense? Do you not realize that everyone can see right though your crap?

      What do you mean the people of East Jerusalem? Most chose not to be rules by an occupying power.

  82. Mooser
    March 22, 2015, 9:34 pm

    “Are you really that…”

    If you are inclined, you might take a gander at his trove. You could see if he is really that, and that, and all that, too. He’s been handing out the same stuff about, well everything since he landed here. I don’t think he’s absorbed a single fact.
    On the other hand, I don’t want to discourage you. I learn a lot from your answers. Thanks.

  83. JeffB
    March 23, 2015, 8:44 am

    @Shingo

    I want you to try thinking and stop yelling. It doesn’t help. I’m not stupid and I’m not uninformed. If I’m saying something that appears obviously false try and think through if you are misunderstanding what I’m saying. Saying “wrong” and then asserting some fact that I obviously know means you are likely missing the point.

    First off:
    Self determination: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
    Nation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination
    Nation state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

    These are not terms I’m making up. These are ideas that have been part of western culture for thousands of years and form the basis of the entire international system. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty

    Peoples join with like peoples to form nations.
    Nations create states to enact their collective will.
    States create laws.

    This is not some esoteric doctrine this is high school civics.

    Self determination most explicitly does not limit itself to persons whose families came to a territory by particular means. That idea that only particular people had the right to rule others is what the people who believed in self determination were fighting against. A belief in self determination is an assertion that people have the right to a government that represents them where ever they live. The argument you are making about creating a distinction between what you call “legitimate residents” that are should have rights under law and another class called “illegitimate residents” is effectually trying to recreate the distinction between patrician and plebe that the advocates for self determination including those who founded the USA were quite explicitly unwilling to embrace.

    There are a lot of links. This is going to take some time to think. If you want to write another post which comes back with you asserting some random fact and how I’m wrong then I’ll move on. Otherwise try and think this through. And if you disagree on what a law is, what is a citizen is, what a state is… then give definitions that are consistent with one another and work up in a way that isn’t circular.

    • Hostage
      March 23, 2015, 1:00 pm

      First off: Self determination: link to en.wikipedia.org … These are not terms I’m making up. … Self determination most explicitly does not limit itself to persons whose families came to a territory by particular means

      As usual, you are deploying jargon to support a specious argument (that the UN is an apologist for a dictatorship & etc.). The right of self-determination isn’t governed by the rules contained in Wikipedia. It’s governed by the customary rules reflected in the UN Charter and the applicable UN Human Rights Declarations and Conventions. All of the primary UN political and judicial organs have repeatedly affirmed that Israel is in flagrant violation of the applicable customary rules.

      While it used to be true, that self-determination wasn’t limited to persons whose families came to a territory by particular means, thast isn’t true anymore. Fascist-style colonialism became a crime against humanity after WWII. In particular, “forced eviction by military attack or occupation and inhuman acts resulting from the policy of apartheid or genocide” are crimes for which no statutory limitations apply. – See the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity and re-read the Declaration Granting Independence to Colonial Peoples and Countries once again for comprehension. It explained that:

      Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

      The Jews were never granted the right to establish a “Jewish Nation-State” by the United Nations, let alone given permission to violate the UN Charter, the UN mandated armistice agreements, or sanctioned to acquire territory from another UN member state by war. In fact, UN resolution 181(II) reflected a pre-existing “sacred trust of civilization” which absolutely prohibited the new states from doing any such a thing. Fundamental human rights were placed under UN guarantee and both of the new States were required to acknowledge an international obligation and undertaking to adopt fundamental laws and a democratic constitution in which “discrimination of any kind between the inhabitants on the ground of race, religion, language or sex was prohibited”. The constitutions also had to stipulate that “All persons within the jurisdiction of the State shall be entitled to equal protection of the laws.” – “and no law, regulation or official action shall conflict or interfere with these stipulations, nor shall any law, regulation or official action prevail over them.” That is the only kind of “Jewish” or “Arab” state that has ever been sanctioned in accordance with black letter international law in the former mandated territory of Palestine.

  84. Mooser
    March 23, 2015, 12:02 pm

    “It doesn’t help. I’m not stupid and I’m not uninformed. If I’m saying something that appears obviously false try and think through if you are misunderstanding what I’m saying”

    I’ll stick with the advice the waitress gave: “Don’t eat the eggs”

  85. Mooser
    March 23, 2015, 1:00 pm

    ” If you want to write another post which comes back with you asserting some random fact and how I’m wrong then I’ll move on.”

    Promise?

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