Israel could reduce anti-Semitic violence by not calling itself the Jewish state, Finkelstein says

US Politics
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Last month at the University of Wisconsin in Madison, Norman Finkelstein gave a speech on “the new anti-semitism” to the Students for Justice in Palestine chapter. The speech contained a number of interesting ideas; let me summarize a few.

The most important one involves Zionism’s role in fostering anti-Semitism. Jewish organizations assert that there is no connection at all between Israel’s actions and anti-semitic activities; but the opposite is the case, Finkelstein said. And Israel and Jewish groups could do a lot to reduce anti-Semitism by disavowing Israel’s actions or disavowing that Israel is a Jewish state. Finkelstein:

It’s often claimed that there’s… no causal nexus between Israeli actions and anti-Semitism, that you can’t blame it on Israel, that there’s no connection between the… spikes in Israeli violence against Palestinians and the upticks in anti-Semitic violence. When in fact if you go through the evidence collected over many years, that’s exactly what the evidence does show: each time Israel launches another of its murderous assaults, anti-semitic incidents peak in Europe. And they’re often perpetrated by disaffected angry Muslim youth. If in recent times, a larger fraction of these incidents are violent, it’s the blowback from the brutish fanaticism currently plaguing the Arab Muslim world.

Now if you’re really concerned about these spurts of anti-Semitism, and you want to contain them, then there are obvious things you can do.
Number one, Israel can stop carrying out massacres….

Another thing is: Israel can simply stop calling itself a Jewish state, so Jews wouldn’t have to bear the burden for its criminal actions.

And the third thing is, official Jewish organizations in the diaspora, they could cease defending Israel’s criminal actions so it won’t appear as if Israel when it carries out these actions is acting in the name of the Jewish people.

The problem hasn’t been helped by the fact that Netanyahu “in a new phase of his megalomania” is calling himself the representative of the entire Jewish people.

When Muslim youths in Europe take him at his word, and they exact revenge on those whom he claims to represent, it might not be right, but it’s not surprising either.

That is a bracing and honest way to consider the attack on the kosher grocery in Paris. Notice that when Rev. Bruce Shipman said something far milder last summer during the Gaza massacre, he lost his job at Yale.

Finkelstein criticized a recent poll purporting to show that half of Britons hold anti-Semitic views. He scoffed at several of the indices of alleged anti-semitic attitudes. For instance, one measure is the view that Jews think that they are better than other people: 17 percent of Brits agreed with that characterization of Jews. Finkelstein says most Jews are anti-Semitic under that definition.

Between the spectacular success of Jews in the western world on the one hand, and the belief in a theological chosenness on the other, in fact most Jews themselves believe in their group superiority. That’s why Jews, present speaker included, like to kvell– that’s the Yiddish word for boast or brag– over the Jewish pedigree of 20 percent of Nobel laureates. I still remember as a child being very proud of the fact that the seminal figures of modernity, Marx, Einstein, and Freud, they were all Jewish…. If it were true that the belief that Jews think that they are superior is proof of anti-Semitism, the inexorable corollary would have to be that most Jews are anti-Semitic because they think they are better than other people.

These comments exactly mirror my own experience. And I’m glad that Finkelstein is talking about Jewish success, a central condition of Jewish life today. Far from being a liability, being Jewish brings “cachet,” he said, tapping people into “networks of privilege and power.” In western Europe, Canada, and the U.S., being Jewish “opens many doors and it closes none.” He cited Chelsea Clinton’s marriage, and observed that she had not slipped a rung on the social ladder by exchanging vows with a Jew.

Then there is the supposedly antisemitic belief that Jews are disproportionately represented in the media.

The fact of the matter is that even as the ADL– the Anti Defamation League– Abraham Foxman wrote in his book on the New Anti-Semitism, he says, yes it’s true Jews are proportionally overrepresented as a group in influential media, whether it be Hollywood, book publishing, opinion journals or newspapers…. but it has no cultural repercussions because he says if you’re in a position of power say in Hollywood, your only concern is the bottom line.

But that’s plainly not the case, Finkelstein said. There is surely a link between the overrepresentation of Jews in Hollywood and the omnipresence of the Holocaust as a cinematic concern, “putting all other human suffering in the shade.” He said there were 110 Holocaust films produced in the last three decades; but only 36 about slavery in the U.S. and the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

And why shouldn’t people conclude that there is a connection between who sits in seats of influence and the content they produce. We accept such arguments when it comes to race and gender, Finkelstein said:

It’s perfectly fair in liberal precincts – politically-correct liberal precincts – to say that white people as against people of color, they have too much power in the media. Or it’s perfectly correct to say, men as against women, they have too much power in the media. Because everybody understands that if you‘re a man against a woman… there’s going to be a kind of natural propensity to give unfair time to yourself, your group, your gender. So it’s perfectly fine to say that white people as against people of color have too much power in the media, or men as against women have too much power in the media. Why, then, does it become anti-Semitic to flag the overrepresentation of Jews in the media? (17:45 min)

I don’t think that anyone has expressed that idea more clearly.

Finkelstein went on to question how much discrimination Jews face. Being Jewish carries a stigma, he said, but it is less of a burden than other forms of social prejudice, say those against being fat, short, bald, or unattractive. These are all life’s “stigmata,” he said– “God’s roll of the dice”– and people have to learn to live with them.

The evidence offered that being Jewish invites discrimination or violence is laughable, he said. The correlation of incidents involving violence and Jews in the west is flimsy; and if being Jewish was a bar to opportunity, then why are there so many Jews at leading universities. Forty percent of the student bodies of Columbia and the University of Pennsylvania– and 2 percent of the overall population. Twenty to 25 percent at Yale, Harvard and Cornell, 13 percent at Princeton and Brown. “This is hardly evidence of anti-Semitism.”

In fact, anti-Semitism has been “vanquished,” he said, and is approaching zero; and Finkelstein said he thought the argument that Jews are actually being favored in admissions at Ivy League schools to the detriment of Asian-Americans is intriguing.

In the last part of his lecture Finkelstein engaged the charge that it is anti-Semitic to single Israel out when many other countries do bad or worse stuff. Finkelstein took the charge seriously and had a very good answer, chiefly involving the special character and longevity of the injustice in Palestine.

The Q-and-A was notable for a couple of comments. Finkelstein differed with Noam Chomsky over the role of the Israel lobby. He said that the lobby was the reason the U.S. supports the Israeli occupation of Palestine. The U.S. has “no stake in the occupation” and would “be euphoric” if Israel withdrew from the occupation.

Then there was Finkelstein’s defense of the two-state solution. I’ve often heard him defend it before, but what struck me as remarkable is that on the one hand he said that the two-state solution was what apartheid South Africa had hoped to achieve by creating the Bantustans, a solution that the world resisted successfully (something Ali Abunimah said many years ago); but on the other the two-state solution should be supported in Israel and Palestine because it reflects international law and world opinion.

Citing global political and public opinion on the question, Finkelstein asked, “What is the maximum, the maximum one could hope to extract?” A Palestinian state in 20 percent of historical Palestine, he said. “Name me one country in the world that supports one state,” he went on challengingly. Even the Greens and Sinn Fein support two states.

“It’s not politics in my opinion,” he said, to demand one state, given that context. “You are imposing a personal opinion on a conflict, as if your personal opinion had anything to do with it.”

Addressing the BDS movement, or boycott, divestment and sanctions, Finkelstein said it was failing a “selfless” Gandhian test in insisting on Palestinians’ rights but not respecting the “reciprocal obligations” to honor the rights of the antagonist. He referred here to the rights of Israelis to their state, which is recognized under international law. BDS has no position on Israeli rights, he said, and in fact “discards Israeli rights”– and that is not a winnable position. There is a tendency among BDS supporters to believe that BDS can liberate Palestine. He called this “a naïve and almost silly position,” and one that did not reflect the South Africa experience, where a mass movement liberated the country.

(I disagree with Finkelstein’s points here, as to one state being a political movement, as to there being no country that supports one state (Israel does), as to BDS’s respect for Israelis’ rights and the effectiveness of BDS; but I will leave the countering to others, or another time.)

Thanks to Annie Robbins for picking up the lecture, seizing on many of the ideas above, and preparing notes for me on it.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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281 Responses

  1. ckg
    April 10, 2015, 1:56 pm

    Finkelstein says even the Greens support two states. Say what?
    Here is the 2012 U.S. Green Party official platform:

    We recognize that international opinion has been committed to a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Yet, we view the two-state solution as neither democratic nor viable in the face of international law, material conditions and “facts on the ground” that now exist in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Given this reality, we support a U.S. foreign policy that promotes the creation of one secular, democratic state for Palestinians and Israelis on the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan as the national home of both peoples, with Jerusalem as its capital. We encourage a new U.S. diplomatic initiative to begin the long process of negotiation, laying the groundwork for such a single-state constitution.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 10, 2015, 2:16 pm

      ckg, perhaps norm was referencing the EU? http://www.greens-efa.eu/

      (i have not checked their policy wrt 1 or 2 states)

      • ziusudra
        April 11, 2015, 6:04 am

        Greetings Phil,
        Thank you for bringing on back that sweet, wise man Finkelstein.
        My question as to the term Jewish State. Why is BB insisting that eclectic Israelis recognized internationally as a being citizens of a State now be termed a Jewish State?
        It is irrelevant as to whether BB is religious or not. With this term, he is forcing World Jewry to cower continually under a newly defined yoke of keeping them down & subservient to the Religion Judaism, but having nothing to do with it. He, BB is working in cohoots with the Mantra of the ancient Judaic Clergy to force Jews to acquiesce only to its Clergy for their religious, judicial & social power over them since their loss of Kingship in 586BC. He, BB is now doing their bidding, but what’s new, is that Israel has Political institutions, who will rule on with the consensus of the Clergy perpetually on the backs of its citizens.
        ziusudra
        PS A Democracy is said to have a separation of Church & State.
        Doesn’t Israel criticize Iran & SA as Theocracies? He, BB is tricking World Jewry into believing that they will have ultimately arrived at their perfect jewish utopian plateau forever more.They must believe him & live out his infallable concept of Jewishness. Heil König BB !

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 7:18 pm

        “Mantra of the ancient Judaic Clergy to force Jews to acquiesce only to its Clergy”

        But those who do acquiesce and use the Mantra may transcend dental medication!

      • peeesss
        April 11, 2015, 4:27 am

        I must state that I have great admiration for Norman’s work over these many years fighting for Justice for the Palestinian people. However his main criticism of the BDS movement is its reiteration that UN Resolutions on Palestine/Israel should be implemented , in particular, its{BDS movement} insistence on the “Right of Return” as mandated in UNSC and UNGA resolutions. Norman states this would mean the end of the State of Israel as it exists now. Here is where Norman loses me. He speaks and writes about the absolutism of the sanctity of International Law. The UN resolutions on the Right of Return for Palestinian Refugees and its ancestors Is and has been International Law for decades. The lawlessness of the Zionist State with the assistance of major powers, in not allowing its implementation does not change that fact. And Norman is correct. The supremacist Zionist State that now exists would be no longer. Instead, hopefully, a State recognizing the equal rights for all its inhabitants Jewish, Muslim and Christian. will arise. Difficult, wish full thinking, for sure. For Norman who speaks quite candidly about the “insane, fanatical, racist ” State of Israel , lectures and writes with conviction and facts on its wars of aggression, massacres, and dehumanization of the Palestinian people , yet calling the BDS movement a “cult” tarnishes his reputation.

    • HarryLaw
      April 10, 2015, 3:42 pm

      The US Greens official platform makes no sense, why should facts on the ground make any difference to the legal situation as informed by International law. If those “facts on the ground” are to be recognized, then they would be acknowledging that it is legitimate to colonize and take over a territory [armed aggression] with no recourse to all the rights enshrined in International law for the dispossessed, and the right of the Palestinian people to self determination. The expulsion of the indigenous Palestinian people from the occupied territories into Jordan and Egypt as espoused by many Israelis would also establish “Facts on the Ground”. If the former argument is sound, which it is not, so is the latter.

    • echinococcus
      April 12, 2015, 12:34 am

      Viewing “the two-state solution as neither democratic nor viable in the face of international law, material conditions and “facts on the ground” does not exclude supporting it. A lot of people do, both those who are trying to salvage Zionism and the opponents of the latter. Add those who just defer to some faction among Palestinians.

  2. Memphis
    April 10, 2015, 2:25 pm

    C’mon Phil, if you disagree with someone you have to state why. The onus is not on someone else to argue on your behalf. It is your disagreement, and should express why, In this article.

    I hope to see an update by the end of the day LMAO

    Great article though!!!

    • Annie Robbins
      April 10, 2015, 2:55 pm

      hi memphis. i’d urge you to watch the whole video. i did, numerous times. fyi it’s actually quite a challenge (and time consuming) to cram a lecture/presentation by norm into an article. after taking notes on all the valuable parts of norm’s speech, which i thought were worthy of representation, i didn’t know how to condense/contain it. plus, transcribing is time consuming. i’m not sure people understand how much effort or forethought might go into an article like this.

      furthermore, phil’s idea on this topic would make a great separate article. i’m sorry you think you’re owed more here, but you’ll just have to be patient.

      btw, there were several instances in the article where phil stated he agreed, however he didn’t elaborate why then either. ultimately this article is not about phil’s response nor does it need to be.

      thanks for reading! ;)

      • FreddyV
        April 10, 2015, 3:30 pm

        And quite awesome work as always Annie.

        This is quite timely. I’m due a debate soon and Norman’s position has been playing on my mind after seeing him on TV recently. This is an excellent “go to” as an abridged version. Thank you.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 10, 2015, 5:51 pm

        actually this is mostly phil’s work. i got a lot of exercise spinning in circles. but i’m very glad you appreciate it. one of the things i love about norm is his ability to crystalize ideas and make them simple to understand. i very much recommend watching the whole video btw.

        one of the things i would emphasize in the debate is that there is an orchestrated ad hominem campaign to tar the movement to free palestine as racist. like all ad hominem campaigns the focus is diversion – to move the focus from the issues preventing the freedom of palestine (an arena hasbrats cannot win because people have figured out israel won’t allow a palestinian state) – to the character or nature of the movement. so this is a very big campaign and a lot of money has been invested in it.

        and, they lie all the time (case in pt, read this recent article: http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/soapbox/article17974802.html note how the author, infamous islamophobe http://mondoweiss.net/2013/02/california-university-terrorists who instigated gov investigation claimed “The coalition carried out a massive and successful campaign to pressure the U.S. Department of Education into dismissing civil rights complaints filed on behalf of Jewish students at UC Irvine, UC Santa Cruz and UC Berkeley.” without mention the gov dismissed the complaints because they found no merit!! )

        anyway, back to the video..at one pt norm mentions he discussed w/the students directly prior to the event what they’d like him to cover first specifically – and it was the students who requested he discuss the charges of anti semitism on campus first because they were getting slammed with these accusations.

        so the claim of an (from my notes) “explosion of anti semitic incidents” on american campuses, is (in my opinion) a campaign that was designed by think tanks. imho, there were clearly decisions made to promote this idea and to tackle the bds movement by attacking the movement itself (as racist) and turning jewish students into victims. i think that’s what’s happening here.

        we can see the beginnings (seeds) of this tactic back at UC berkeley divestment years ago (and continuing thru many divestment initiatives on campuses throught the US system ) by instructions to students to be emotional and talk about their ‘hurt feelings’.

      • Sycamores
        April 10, 2015, 4:12 pm

        Hi Anne,

        i watch the video a while back and i think you and Phil cover the most essential parts of the speech.
        particularly the BDS part which really annoyed me. why does Finklestein expect the BDS movement to respect the rights of occupiers when they constantly stamps on the Palestinian rights.

        ultimately this article is not about Phil’s response nor does it need to be.

        you are correct of course but i for one would find a piece on the subject very informative coming from you or Phil or both of you.

        is there a transcript for Norman speech or did you have to type it yourself, if the latter is true thanks for the work.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 10, 2015, 8:17 pm

        sycamores, after transcribing parts of it (very rough) i wrote norm for his notes and he generously sent me what he referenced as his “manuscript”. however, it wasn’t exactly the same and hence i didn’t like it as much. many of my favorite parts weren’t in there. he did mention he may be publishing it as an article this month tho. so look out for it. you’re welcome, but no need to thank me.

        one of my first articles on MW (from 2010 – time flies) was partly (somewhat) on this topic of one state/two state it’s called “the trap” here: http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/the-trap

        of course 2S becomes more and more remote all the time, it’s been 5 years since i wrote the article . i’d recommend reading the entire thing, as to why i think one state is preferable and inevitable, however that i do support two states.

        later, in the comments i mention “I believe there is an inevitability factor of one state, therefore advocating for it is unnecessary and may only garner resistance”

        during an exchange in the comment section i stated:

        “I agree with you as a matter of principle the one state solution is preferable. However I support the two state solution for two reasons. The first being it conceivably would be easier to attain and bring immediate relief and opportunity to more people and there is an alleged general consensus within Israel, Palestine and the US that doesn’t exist for a one state solution.

        The second reason I support a two state solution is I think one state will likely emerge from the failure of a genuine concerted effort for two states, an effort that becomes transparently clear to everyone has failed because Israel won’t allow it. I think Israel is engaged in charade and extreme factions obviously wants no part in two states because they want all of the West Bank. I would love to be proven wrong. I think the path to one state or two is identical at this juncture. The only entity preventing the establishment of two states is Israel and that will become clearer in the near future. It makes more sense to me to take the path of least resistance to peace. Right now, the path is the same.”

        also:

        “I am referencing the process, the path. It is an accepted path (because people conceive it will work and perceive there is a general consensus , neither of which I think is true ) and therefore can be used to facilitate an inevitable outcome. Use the path to expose the truth. Make the path work in your favor. Think Tai Chi, let the opponents force be turned against him.”

        these are all part of the extended conversation and should be read in context to the 2010 article.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 10, 2015, 8:26 pm

        why does Finklestein expect the BDS movement to respect the rights of occupiers when they constantly stamps on the Palestinian rights.

        any realistic resolution for the region will require reconciliation, respect, and equal rights for everyone. from my perspective i would change the question from why the BDS movement should respect the rights of occupiers, to asking why a dignified resolution would respect the rights of palestinians as well as jews. however, i don’t think it’s the responsibility of a movement to free a colonized people to focus on respect for their occupiers.

        ultimately it’s a no go expecting activist to advocate for something they don’t see as remotely possible. i advocate what i think is inevitable and i assume norm does too. it’s a fundamental difference in belief of what’s possible.

        do i think right now one state is more achievable today than 2? no. but at the same time i don’t believe either is achievable today given the political climate. i think time is a factor and by the time a resolution materializes it will be in the form of one state. but if 2 states happened today and palestinians supported it i would also, of course.

      • Memphis
        April 10, 2015, 5:57 pm

        I meant the very last comment comments on BDS. And I think it is important to address why he disagrees. One can’t argue for human rights and at the same time deny another’s, finkelstein is right (that is what israel is currently doing). So he really should have expanded further. I understand the work it takes to write, I’ve written hundreds of 20 page + essays, but if I state something, or disagree with a point and then fail to expand on it, well that takes away from the quality of the paper.

        I hope he does at some point expand on his final paragraph.

        My apologizes if my post rubbed the wrong way, it was really a compliment, I enjoy Phil’s writing and really respect his view points, so I was just wanting to hear more. Tis all

      • Annie Robbins
        April 10, 2015, 7:17 pm

        no need to apologize. phil might expand upon it. i have my own differences w/norm over this issue which i have written about in the past. it’s been hashed out numerous times since the norm “cult” video/interview was released.

        you can certainly discuss it in the comment section. personally, as part of the q&a (as i recall) i don’t really think it’s the main focus of this particular presentation. but of course it set up real rankles within the community and as i mentioned it’s been hashed out right here in these threads many times.

        as an aside, i did have an extended email conversation with norm about his views, but it was off the record.

      • Philip Weiss
        April 11, 2015, 1:11 pm

        I agree Annie!

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 7:21 pm

        “by instructions to students to be emotional and talk about their ‘hurt feelings’.”

        Oh, it’s worse than that, annie, there’s cyber-bullying and harassment, too! A Zionist can’t catch a break nowhere, these days.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 12, 2015, 9:18 pm

        just saw your comment phil.

        xxxx ;)

  3. ckg
    April 10, 2015, 2:31 pm

    I think you’re right, Annie. One document on the EU Greens EFA site calls on the EU institutions and Member States to take steps to protect the viability of the two-state solution and to create a positive dynamic towards genuine peace negotiations

  4. pabelmont
    April 10, 2015, 2:39 pm

    I do not think it would suffice (to quell antisemtic acts in Europe) for Israel to announce that it is no longer “the” Jewish state or even no longer “a” Jewish state at all. AS IF!

    Suppose ISIS declared that it was not “the” Islamic State, and indeed was not “an” Islamic state at all. Just a normal state created by violence like all other states, like Israel for example. In that case, people would STILL call it an Islamic State.

    A rose by any other name would small as sweet, and Israel w/o the “Jewish State” association would still have its history, its historic “name” as “the Jewish state”, its LAW OF RETURN, etc. cannot erase it.

    Now, if AIPAC and The Presidents of Major American Jewish Orgs, ALL ALL ALL condemned Israel and stated, via their RABBIS, that Israel violated Jewish Law and was not “Jewish”, etc., well MAYBE THEN antisemitism would be reduced.

    Maybe. Until the next massacre.

    • Giles
      April 10, 2015, 5:14 pm

      “Until the next massacre.”

      Presumably you speak of the occasional killing of a handful of Jews — or even non Jews at Jewish establishments.

      You, of course, are guilty of hyperbole.

      You want to see a massacre? Look at the operations Israel carries out against Gaza and Lebanon, look at what is going on in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Kenya. Libya, etc.

      • pabelmont
        April 10, 2015, 6:47 pm

        Yes, USA and ISIS and AlQaeda and Syria (and Guatamala and others in the Americas) and others also do/did massacres. Not only Israel. But the Muslims and Arabs living in Europe are particularly sensitive to Israel’s massacres, hence the connection to antisemitic attacks in Europe as responses.

        But, to be clear, I meant until Israel next crushes Gaza or south Lebanon or some other target. I meant such a massacre.

  5. chuckcarlos
    April 10, 2015, 2:40 pm

    finkelbean still believes in israel…he stated at one time, if memory serves, that while he sees a time when younger folks do not believe in israel he stated that would be a tragedy for him….”more or less”

    so he justifies his position with a bunch of mumbo jumbo…

    the facts are, as has been very clearly delineated here (and as an adjunct maybe some on this here blog should publish these facts in a clear and concise manner somewhere) israel has much in common with muslim states that are presumably based on sharia law or the third reich where racial purity was/is worshipped…as if jews have much racial purity anyway….

    USA has a clear position on all this garbage

    “Section 1.

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

    why in the hell we support anything or anybody else is beyond me…

    “stand with us (Israel)”

    “We are like you”

    “USA should declare Israel a part of USA and defend it” Simon Wiesenthal Fascist Center

    Effing Horseshit

  6. Real Jew
    April 10, 2015, 2:45 pm

    Finkelstein is such an incredibly insightful individual. It would be hard to find someone who understands this conflict better than him. Although I don’t agree with his stance on Bds he still a champion of the cause.

    As far as anti-semetic incidents and israeli violence it’s obvious that the two are related. But the pro Israel community will do anything including denying the obvious in order to avoid Israel be portrayed negatively.

  7. OyVey00
    April 10, 2015, 3:39 pm

    Finkelstein is great. Not just for his analytical acumen, but also for his intellectual honesty, which is a very rare trait.

  8. Keith
    April 10, 2015, 5:02 pm

    PHIL- “Far from being a liability, being Jewish brings “cachet,” he said, tapping people into “networks of privilege and power.” In western Europe, Canada, and the U.S., being Jewish “opens many doors and it closes none.”

    I agree completely and feel that exploring this reality – both the causes and consequences – is an important aspect of understanding the functioning of our political economy. Claims that voicing this reality constitute an anti-Semitic trope are, in effect, a demonstration of Jewish power and the ability control the discourse and silence competing voices. The notion that all of this can be explained away by the invisible hand of meritocracy flies in the face of the real world of organizational politics and networks of influence. In this meritocracy fantasy world, success, in effect, justifies itself. Historically, it represents the ideological core of the white man’s burden where white superiority was self-evident by virtue of white domination of the “coloreds.” Nature thrives on diversity and any system in which a de facto caste system perpetuates itself is inherently unwholesome. And the very notion of de facto anti-Gentile discrimination will likely raise the self-righteous hackels of those who benefit from the current situation.

    • catalan
      April 10, 2015, 8:30 pm

      In western Europe, Canada, and the U.S., being Jewish “opens many doors and it closes none.” – Keith
      Please tell me where this door is. I am going in as as soon as I know! Thanks. One will suffice.

      • Keith
        April 11, 2015, 1:21 am

        CATALAN- “In western Europe, Canada, and the U.S., being Jewish “opens many doors and it closes none.” – Keith

        I am quoting Phil paraphrasing and quoting Norman Finkelstein. Your question should be directed to them. Phil has written about his personal experience of bennefitting from being Jewish. Are you calling him a liar? Are you suggesting that there is no favoritism? That Jews who believe in eternal and irrational anti-Semitism don’t favor their fellow Jews over “Jew Hater” Gentiles? Perhaps you can share with us your opinion as to why so much of the media has a wildly disproportionate number of Jews? Seriously, defend why the East Coast Ashkenazi have been so successful. If you think that Gentiles are significantly less competent than Jews, just say it. You dispute organizational politics and networks of influence? And if you are looking for open doors, just join a Jewish organization and ask around. I’m sure that you will be presented opportunities not available to others. Of course, when it was the WASPs calling the shots, this sort of favoritism was a terrible thing. Nowadays, however, any attempt to break through the Kosher barrier is reverse discrimination. My, how times have changed.

      • catalan
        April 11, 2015, 8:49 am

        Seriously, defend why the East Coast Ashkenazi have been so successful –
        Keith, I am a finance manager in a U.S. government and have never encountered this alleged favoritism. I have also worked in major corporations. Hiring decisions generally go through so many levels of review that it is generally very hard to show preferential treatment. People don’t risk their livelihood to help others,and Jews don’t differ.
        Myself, I earned several advanced certifications with impossibly high scores and have four graduate degrees. The people who helped and guided me along the way were pretty much all not Jewish, most have been religious Christians.
        As to success of Jews, I find the story of Sidney Farber very inspiring. He developed the fist chemotherapy in his quest to cure childhood leukemia. He saw thousands of children die but persevered.
        Keith, there are no shortcuts to success. You can force equality but there is a natural difference of skill among men. Why some cultures are so much more successful than others, well that’s a huge question. Look at Europe – why are Netherlands and Norway so much better off than Bulgaria and Albania? That’s not something that can be answered in a comment,

      • Keith
        April 11, 2015, 11:04 am

        CATALAN- “Please tell me where this door is. I am going in as as soon as I know!”

        The implication being that because you don’t feel that you have personally benefit from special treatment that favoritism doesn’t exist? This is a common fallacy, one commonly used to deny ongoing racial discrimination. By coincidence, over at CouterPunch Allan Johnson discusses this very issue as regards white privilege. Simply substitute “Jewish” for “white” and the logic remains unchanged.

        “In other words, “If there really is white privilege, where’s mine?”

        But systems of privilege don’t work that way. They guarantee nothing for individuals. No one can predict the life of a baby who happens to be born white or of color.

        What systems of privilege do instead is load the odds one way or the other. You can be white and still not get the job you’re qualified for, or go to school and work hard your whole life and have little to show for it, or be stopped (or shot) by police when you’ve done nothing wrong, or be followed around a store as if you can’t be trusted.

        But in a system of white privilege, the odds of such things happening to white people are much lower than for everyone else.” (Allan Johnson)
        http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/04/10/the-u-s-armys-gag-rule-on-white-privilege/

      • catalan
        April 11, 2015, 12:51 pm

        “The implication being that because you don’t feel that you have personally benefit from special treatment that favoritism doesn’t exist? “-
        Keith, no point to get into an ideological discussion, you have your views and I mine. If you are aware of a specific case or cases where Jews were chosen over non-Jews with all other qualifications being equal, then you can bring them up. All corporations and government bodies have strong codes against that and internal control departments charged with monitoring this type of stuff. There are laws against it as well and plenty of lawyers who would love such a case.
        I was quoting my experience because it has helped me see the system from within and I just fail to see the logistics of such alleged favoritism. There is usually a series of job interviews, HR, internal audit. Many levels of approval and high risks for anyone attempting funny business.
        As to me I used to be an illegal working with Poles, Philippinos and others in the restaurant business. I also studied a lot. Things worked out in the last few years because some people believed in me. Turned out I have skills in IT which are rare among financial professionals. I am also pretty mellow and kind. I like to think I have improved some lives.

      • Keith
        April 11, 2015, 3:19 pm

        CATALAN- “Hiring decisions generally go through so many levels of review that it is generally very hard to show preferential treatment. People don’t risk their livelihood to help others,and Jews don’t differ.”

        Well there it is. The gist of all of your comments is that favoritism and bias play no part in the hiring process. Even contacts are of little value. Your experience has been that of a practically perfect meritocracy. Promotions as well? Cream rises to the top and the untermenschen simply need to work harder. Organizational politics? What is that? Ah, the Ashkenazi man’s burden. Suffice it to say that your insistence that meritocracy trumps organizational politics is seriously out of touch with reality. In the tooth and claw fight for power and influence, justifications are easy to come by.

        So rather than acknowledge the statistical improbability of massive Jewish over-representation without some sort of preferential treatment, or even acknowledging Phil’s and Norman’s personal experience, I am supposed to give specific examples proving discrimination, something we both know is impossible. I seriously doubt that this level of documentation was required to require affirmative action plans to eliminate gross and obvious patterns of discrimination. Affirmative action plans which helped to enable the Jews to eliminate barriers to Jewish advancement. Programs which, having achieved their purpose insofar as Jews are concerned, are now opposed as reverse discrimination.

        The bottom line, Catalan, is that in your comments to me and in other comments you have made, you seem to me to be clearly a tribalist not a universalist. The status quo suits you just fine and you vigorously defend it. The notion that a statistically obvious de facto caste system represents a social problem does not enter your thinking. Power justifies itself, wealth providing the credentials to make it appear reasonable. It wasn’t always so. Jews used to be in the vanguard of the fight for social justice. That was before the 1967 war and the crumbling of the barriers to Jewish upward mobility. Nowadays, Israel and Zionism have succeeded in stifling universalism and recreating an intense and active tribalism. And, being a loyal Zionist cadre, you feel threatened by any discussion of power and privilege.

      • catalan
        April 12, 2015, 9:07 am

        Keith,
        The class admitted to Harvard in 2015 was 17.8 Asian Americans. Asian Americans constitute about 5 percent of the general population. Is that preferential treatment?
        Actually, I never suggested a perfect meritocracy. What I said is that there are too few Jews almost anywhere outside of New York City for them to be able to execute a plan of preferential treatment. I am in the southwest. Everyone is either Hispanic or Anglo. If there are any undercurrents of preferences they are along those lines, with Hispanics winning due to overwhelming numbers.
        Anyway you have descended into personal attacks due to inability to substantiate your accusations.

      • Keith
        April 12, 2015, 4:08 pm

        CATALAN- “The class admitted to Harvard in 2015 was 17.8 Asian Americans. Asian Americans constitute about 5 percent of the general population. Is that preferential treatment?

        Interesting how you ignore the big picture. Are Asia-Americans significantly over-represented in the centers of financial power? Is the Federal Reserve packed with Asian Americans? Were the last three Federal Reserve Chairmen Asian-Americans? Are Asian-Americans a significant presence on Wall Street? Do Asian-Americans dominate the New York centered news media? Have you detected significant Asian-American bias in the main stream media? Are the higher level executives in Hollywood and the recording industry predominantly Asian-Americans? Are Asian-Americans the major source of campaign funding for both political parties? Do Asian-American Think Tanks dominate the beltway? Does AIPAC stand for Asian-American Interests Political Action Committee? Are Republican candidates standing in line to kiss Shogun Adel-Sun’s Hibachi?

        Catalan- “What I said is that there are too few Jews almost anywhere outside of New York City for them to be able to execute a plan of preferential treatment.”

        Actually, you didn’t, but let us put that aside. Is white privilege the result of a master plan or is it the result of pervasive bias? Is nepotism the result of planned preferential treatment or the consequence of perceived self-interest among the relatives? Something difficult to prove, although the result is fairly obvious when the linkages are exposed. Zionism’s capture of organized Jewish life has enabled a network of power and influence beyond the centers of Jewish power such that Jewish money can be mobilized to support the Zionist agenda well beyond New York. Also, the ability to withdraw funding from Universities and other donor dependent organizations deemed insufficiently supportive of Zionist interests. And, of course, there is the all-pervasive influence of the doctrinal system which is heavily influenced by the Jewish intelligentsia. The numbers speak for themselves and cannot be denied, nor can they be explained away by exclusive reference to meritocracy.

      • Walid
        April 16, 2015, 9:09 pm

        “I also have not accused anyone of antisemitism, in fact till now I have not used that word on that forum. ” (catalan)

        Great, it’s an idiot term. A much more dramatic one that should be used is “anti-Jewish”.

      • oldgeezer
        April 17, 2015, 12:54 pm

        The propsitions are nowhere near being mutually exclusive.

    • Citizen
      April 10, 2015, 8:32 pm

      i agree

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 11:47 am

        Haven’t you noticed “catalan’s” wild swings? One minute he’s a poor guy who can’t get in to the “mainstream” and the next, he’s a big allrightnik with plenty pelf thanks to his hard work and intelligence. Which is it?

      • Annie Robbins
        April 11, 2015, 11:51 am

        he/she is a cameleon.

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 7:30 pm

        “he/she is a cameleon.”

        He’s pretty much a one-trick pony. A camel-leopard.

      • catalan
        April 11, 2015, 8:22 pm

        “He’s pretty much a one-trick pony”- Mooser.
        Harsh.

      • Mooser
        April 12, 2015, 6:04 pm

        “Harsh.”

        Yup, and it’s a dumb trick, too, and well, everybody is pretty tired of it.

      • peeesss
        April 13, 2015, 2:37 am

        Keith: I agree also. 100%. Catalan please don’t continue. The reality is there for all to see as Keith points out .

    • Walid
      April 11, 2015, 1:41 am

      “In western Europe, Canada, and the U.S., being Jewish “opens many doors and it closes none.” (NF)

      Maybe so today because people have evolved, but this hasn’t always been the case; for a long time, they were as welcome at the front door as the JWs. I’d guess that this historical fact is what drove them to generally succeed today. Given the choice, I’d knock at the door of a Jewish doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant and so on. But this isn’t to say that there are no destitute Jews living in inner cities and this is especially remarkable in Israel.

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 11:51 am

        “Given the choice, I’d knock at the door of a Jewish doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant and so on”

        Walid, how would you like to own your very own bridge!?
        Not just any bridge, but a bridge on a major road. You could charge any toll you like! Call me, I’m a doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant and so on, and a large bridge dealer. And you can trust me, I’m Jewish!

      • Walid
        April 11, 2015, 12:38 pm

        Mooser, Jewish used car and other things salesmen aren’t on my list of favourites. Wouldn’t buy my tires from one either.

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 7:39 pm

        “Mooser, Jewish used car and other things salesmen aren’t on my list of favourites. Wouldn’t buy my tires from one either.”

        Really? What’s the difference? I mean, what if a Jewish accountant gets busted for fraud, or a doctor for malpractice, and ends up as a used-car salesman or tire dealer. Would you trust him?

        You know, if you had said you didn’t trust Jewish accountants, lawyers or doctors, I wouldn’t turn a hair, after all who does? But Jewish used car and tire dealers? Now, you go too damn far, now you are talking about people who have standards, not lawyers, accountants and doctors! Your life depends on the quality of your tires, and I don’t know about you, but Les Schwab has never forfeited my trust!

    • pabelmont
      April 11, 2015, 9:31 am

      Perhaps harping on the danger of another “holocaust” and the other dangers of antisemitism, harping by American Jews but especially, especially!, by the American Jewish Establishment, and making obeisance to Israel, etc., is (in part) an unconscious mechanism (and for some also a thought-out strategy) for disguising and camouflaging the enormous rise in power, wealth, and safety of American Jews (or at least of the American Jewish Establishment). It takes their own minds off fears that they will lose that power by expressing other (unreasonable) fears. And it “disarms” non-Jewish Americans who might object (oops, is there a remnant of antisemitism out there?) either to the too-fast and too-high rise in wealth and power of the American Jewish Establishment; and also tends to prevent opposition to Zionism (poor little us, we must be protected, and again, poor little us, don’t make us feel endangered by taking away our soft-and-fuzzy security-blanket (triumphant Israel).

      Did WASPs, originally and perhaps still to a large extent the powers in America, ever complain about fears, dangers to a supposed home-country, racial discrimination, etc.? No, and I think the behavior of the rich-and-powerful Jews in America — where they stick up for Israel and instigate new wars for America — is particularly distressing. (They are not alone in pressing for new wars, but much of the energy for neocon-ism appears from its membership to be Jewish).

      I can recall a time when Jews were (thought to be) at the forefront of the fights for civil liberties, especially the freedom of speech, press, association, religion, and opinion. Now we have members of the American Jewish Establishment cutting down on these freedoms at Hillel, in tenure decisions by universities, shutting down on discussions if Palestine (all the SJP trials and tribulations). Quite a reversal.

      • Walid
        April 11, 2015, 10:28 am

        “Did WASPs, originally and perhaps still to a large extent the powers in America, ever complain about fears, dangers to a supposed home-country, racial discrimination, etc.?” (pabelmont)

        Isn’t that what 40 million American WASPS do every Sunday under their mega-sized air-conditioned revival tents? Their fire and brimstone sermons make John of Patmos’ Book of Revelation appear like a stroll through the park.

        I think that all the dust kicked up in favour of Israel by the Jews in America along with their cheques are in lieu of their moral obligation of having to actually move to Israel. Remember the dispensations and indulgences sold by Tetzel? A cheque is just as good.

        From Barbara Goldstein in the JPost in 2013:

        “..The first Prime Minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion once spoke to a group in Sde Boker, and I was with them. He told us a story and said: ‘You need to become like a Catholic family’. Back then I did not know what a Catholic family was, and I asked what that was all about. Ben-Gurion responded: ‘in a Catholic family they always want one child, a boy, who will become a priest or a girl who will become a nun’. And I guess I still did not get it. Then he explained: “Every Jewish family in America should feel obligated that at least one of their children comes to live in Eretz Israel”. This is because one person moving to Israel would be followed by families visiting them.”.

        http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/From-Green-Finland-to-Yellow-Arava/From-a-Seed-of-Hope-to-Zionism-The-Personal-Story-of-Barbara-Goldstein-Deputy-Director-of-Hadassah-Israel-and-KKL-JNF-Board-Member-364389

      • Keith
        April 11, 2015, 10:50 am

        WALID- “Isn’t that what 40 million American WASPS do every Sunday under their mega-sized air-conditioned revival tents?”

        Normally, when one talks about the “WASPS” one is referring to the 1% of the Ivy League Protestant elite who were conspicuously successful beyond their numbers. The white Anglo-Saxon protestants who crowd these revival tents are not the same wasps.

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 11:54 am

        “Did WASPs, originally and perhaps still to a large extent the powers in America, ever complain about fears, dangers to a supposed home-country, racial discrimination, etc.?”

        Do they? You bet! Where do you think we got the models and the chuzpah to pull it off?

      • Marco
        April 11, 2015, 11:58 am

        Walid: “Isn’t that what 40 million American WASPS do every Sunday under their mega-sized air-conditioned revival tents?”

        America’s churches aren’t nearly as segregated as they used to be. The percent of white churchgoers who attend all-white churches has halved in the last two decades. I think non-Christians might be surprised how much immigration has changed the membership of many churches these days.

      • Walid
        April 11, 2015, 12:43 pm

        “Normally, when one talks about the “WASPS” one is referring to the 1% of the Ivy League Protestant elite who were conspicuously successful beyond their numbers. -” (Keith)

        You mean like those Masonic ones? I think those guys were more spooked than those southern revivalists.

      • Walid
        April 11, 2015, 12:55 pm

        “The percent of white churchgoers who attend all-white churches has halved in the last two decades ” (Marco)

        Attendance may be down but that old mentality hasn’t changed. Those millions of Americans preparing themselves for the second coming are more Zionists at heart and mind than the ones in Israel. They’d cleanse Jerusalem of its Arabs to make way for it to happen faster than the Israelis.

      • ckg
        April 11, 2015, 1:47 pm

        I think the societal delineation between U.S. evangelical and mainline Protestant churches has become more stark over recent decades, with the fire-and-brimstone breathers concentrated in the former and the politically influential, establishment tea-sippers, e.g. WASPs, in the latter. The influence of WASPs is definitely on the decline, as evidenced by the makeup of the supreme court.

      • OyVey00
        April 11, 2015, 5:34 pm

        WASPs haven’t been the powers that be in America for 40 years now. They got more or less silently taken over.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 10:56 am

        They got more or less silently taken over.”

        Well, if they got taken over “silently” you can bet it wasn’t us. And win.

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 1:39 am

        “America’s churches aren’t nearly as segregated as they used to be. “

        There’s a wide variety of Christian worship and experience in America, very wide. And also transitory trends, which come and go.
        It would be very hard to typify Christians in America. They come lots of different ways.

    • JWalters
      April 11, 2015, 6:12 pm

      Why is the Jewish community so successful? The Jewish community is a historically literate community due to teaching children early to read the Torah. Literacy is a well-known, major factor in success. Unfortunately the book teaches ethnic superiority (i.e. bigotry), so there’s a trade-off.

      There’s also the phenomenon in which some members of an ethnic group get a financial upper hand in a society, and then tend to favor members of their own ethnic group with opportunities. This has happened with other ethnic groups, and in other parts of the world.

      The world is moving on, and this would be a good time to get rid of all the ethnic superiority bullsh*t.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 10:54 am

        “The Jewish community is a historically literate community due to teaching children early to read the Torah.”

        “JWalters” have you ever seen a Torah? If you had, you would realize that you just (hyperbole warning) accused Jews of child abuse!

        BTW, do you have a cite for that early forced Hebrew literacy? From this Century, for America?

        And why do you think there is some common Jewish educational experience?

    • hophmi
      April 12, 2015, 8:17 am

      Antisemitism at Mondoweiss, everyone. Jews control the economy and use their “power” to “control the discourse and silence competing voices” and they discriminate against Gentiles.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 12, 2015, 11:13 am

        except no one said “control the economy” . there was this

        “important aspect of understanding the functioning of our political economy.

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/violence-calling-finkelstein/comment-page-1#comment-760633

        use their “power” to “control the discourse and silence competing voices”

        are you referencing:

        a demonstration of Jewish power and the ability control the discourse and silence competing voices.

        ?

        for everyone’s review:

        “PHIL- “Far from being a liability, being Jewish brings “cachet,” he said, tapping people into “networks of privilege and power.” In western Europe, Canada, and the U.S., being Jewish “opens many doors and it closes none.”

        I agree completely and feel that exploring this reality – both the causes and consequences – is an important aspect of understanding the functioning of our political economy. Claims that voicing this reality constitute an anti-Semitic trope are, in effect, a demonstration of Jewish power and the ability control the discourse and silence competing voices.

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/violence-calling-finkelstein/comment-page-1#comment-760633

      • Keith
        April 12, 2015, 5:49 pm

        HOPHMI- “Antisemitism at Mondoweiss, everyone. Jews control the economy and use their “power” to “control the discourse and silence competing voices” and they discriminate against Gentiles.”

        Anti-Semitism at Mondoweiss? In your typically vile and intellectually dishonest fashion, you make my point that “Claims that voicing this reality constitute an anti-Semitic trope are, in effect, a demonstration of Jewish power and the ability control the discourse and silence competing voices.” You neither acknowledge nor discuss the issue of Jewish power, instead you label those that do as anti-Semites in order to squelch the discussion, just as I said.

        Hophmi- ” Jews control the economy….”

        Who said that, except you? You wear your intellectual dishonesty on your sleeve. Yet another of your shameful misrepresentations.

        Hophmi- “…they discriminate against Gentiles.”

        Still another shameless misrepresentation. The full quote is: “And the very notion of de facto anti-Gentile discrimination will likely raise the self-righteous hackels of those who benefit from the current situation.” The degree to which any group favors the members of their group results in de facto discrimination against those who are not members of their group. Surely you would agree that WASPS favoring their fellow WASPS resulted in de facto discrimination against Jews? Now, are you really going to claim that there is no Jewish “kinship” favoritism? That Jews, such as yourself, who believe that the Goyim have abused and murdered Jews for 2000 years and will likely do so again if the circumstances permit, don’t show favoritism to their fellow Jews? Give me a break! If you really believe that Gentiles are out to get you (ANTI-SEMITISM), then you would be stupid not to discriminate wouldn’t you. If I thought that you or your ilk were out to kill me if given the chance, do you think that I would hire you? Who the Hell are you kidding? Given the nature of Zionist ideology, anti-Gentile discrimination is virtually inevitable. Now among non-Zionist Jews, that is another story. The non-Zionist Jews which I have been associated with have been very nice, not fundamentalist haters such as yourself.

      • Mooser
        April 12, 2015, 6:09 pm

        “Antisemitism at Mondoweiss, everyone. Jews control the economy and use their “power” to “control the discourse and silence competing voices” and they discriminate against Gentiles.”

        Hophmi, how many anti-Semitic strikes does Mondo have now? How many more before you shut it down?

        Just struck me, Hophmi, old ferd, do you think any of the anti-Semitism here is due to “Jewish self-hatred”. Shouldn’t we pull up your incisive analysis of the editor, considering it is relevant to this?

      • gamal
        April 12, 2015, 10:40 pm

        I swear Hophmi, look in to her eyes, its just a small thing, a slight attitude adjustment, no joke look at her, we are all in this together, Sibombo- salamatu

        https://youtu.be/TbbkJfKnSt8

    • catalan
      April 12, 2015, 6:49 pm

      Keith,
      I think your allegations that Mrs. Janet Yellen obtained her position due to some kind of ethnic or religious networking actually constitutes libel. I don’t think that she will bother with you though. Then again, it may be worth it.

      • gamal
        April 12, 2015, 11:08 pm

        “actually constitutes libel” its true never have anything in your mouth when reading hasbarists,

        but it “actually constitutes a libel”, je ne charlie pas? ( 8 years of french) what happened to Richard Witty with straining heart, ok I may have exhausted my posting african music videos but honestly you would really benefit from a little sarkin muri, specifically, Dankwairo, they are healers, it constitutes an Islam.

        https://youtu.be/IpnPk-XUXyg

      • Keith
        April 12, 2015, 11:58 pm

        CATALAN- “I think your allegations that Mrs. Janet Yellen obtained her position due to some kind of ethnic or religious networking actually constitutes libel.”

        Your kind of like Hophmi, aren’t you? You put words in people’s mouth misrepresenting what they say. I made no such “allegation.” I have not commented on individual instances, an impossible task, rather I have consistently referred to the macro level where statistically speaking Jewish over-representation is painfully obvious. I have stated my opinion that this strongly suggests bias and favoritism. I have no way of knowing the extent to which this influenced Janet Yellen’s appointment. The deciding factor may have involved her prioritizing Wall Street’s agenda over the 99%. You have consistently tried to re-direct the issue away from the “kinship” effect, which was the gist of the article. And no, I am not worried about being sued for libel by Janet Yellen, an outrageous assertion on your part to imply that what I said was in any way libelous.

      • Keith
        April 13, 2015, 12:09 am

        CATALAN- “I think your allegations that Mrs. Janet Yellen obtained her position due to some kind of ethnic or religious networking actually constitutes libel.”

        What an outrageous distortion! What did I actually say? “Were the last three Federal Reserve Chairmen Asian-Americans?” Based upon this, you are implying that I “libeled” Janet Yellen? You, like many of your Zionist cohorts have zero intellectual and moral integrity. You should be ashamed of yourself! But, of course, you are not. If one can justify ongoing mass murder, a little smear regarding libel is small beer.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 7:13 pm

        ” I don’t think that she will bother with you though. Then again, it may be worth it.”

        Well “catalan” I guess you and Ms. Yellen can discuss that and decide what to do. Sounds like you are right up there in the mainstream to me.

      • catalan
        April 13, 2015, 7:58 pm

        Mooser,
        I appreciate that you try to be funny. That’s good. But share with us, what is your your opinion – is there a network of Jews who promote one another on the basis of kinship and due to their fear of Gentiles? Since preferring a candidate for a job or as a student at university on the basis of ethnicity is in violation of so many statutes and company policies, surely such information would be of interest to the authorities. The claim is that Jews are engaged in a vast conspiracy to discriminate against Gentiles. In the interest of common decency I am all for uncovering this illegal pattern of discrimination.

      • Mooser
        April 14, 2015, 9:26 pm

        “The claim is that Jews are engaged in a vast conspiracy to discriminate against Gentiles”

        Nobody is making that claim catalan except you. Do you really think you can lie like this and get away with it?
        Now, if there is a QUOTE (you know, what somebody ACTUALLY SAID) you think may be anti-semitic, please QUOTE that passage, and I will tell you whether or not it is antisemitic.
        If you can’t do that, stop alternately whining and lying.

        Anf BTW ‘catalan’, I’m dead serious.

      • catalan
        April 15, 2015, 10:49 am

        Mooser,
        the quote which alleges that Jews are engaged in a conspiracy to discriminate against Gentiles, is this quote from Keith:
        “I have not commented on individual instances, an impossible task, rather I have consistently referred to the macro level where statistically speaking Jewish over-representation is painfully obvious. I have stated my opinion that this strongly suggests bias and favoritism.”
        Do you agree that Jews show bias and favoritism when they make hiring decisions?
        As to Keith, he still cannot find a way to prove his assertions with either individual instances or some kind of statistical data. I agree that there are a lot of successful Jews, a surprising number given the overall proportion in the general population. However, until I am shown that this is the result of Jews helping each other out, I will continue to believe that this is the result of education and their efforts.
        I am also at a loss to understand why, if there is a pervasive pattern of Jews showing bias and favoritism, it is so difficult to show instances of that. That’s a normal procedure in the social sciences, you have to prove your assertions with quantitative data. Thomas Pickety wrote a whole book full of numbers to prove his claims on inequality. Yet Keith makes huge assertions, and the only prove is “Jewish over-representation”? Well excuse me for getting four Master’s degrees, I am sorry if this offended you and increased the representation of Jews. I will be sure to tell my son to study little so that he doesn’t offend Keith’s sensibilities of too many Jews in prominent positions.

      • Keith
        April 15, 2015, 9:07 pm

        CATALAN- “The claim is that Jews are engaged in a vast conspiracy to discriminate against Gentiles.”

        I claimed no such thing, and you have once again misrepresented me in your typically intellectually dishonest fashion. In fact, on this thread alone your dishonesty is excessive even by Zionist standards. Curious, how with four claimed master’s degrees you seem incapable of making any coherent argument, resorting instead to constructing strawmen which you can attack. Perhaps a few more master’s degrees would permit some intellectual integrity to seep in? Or do you only choose professors who share you worldview that truth is what works?

        Catalan- “Thomas Pickety wrote a whole book full of numbers to prove his claims on inequality.”

        This is just priceless. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes (author unknown): “It takes an unusual mind to undertake an analysis of the obvious.” Even Abe Foxman is willing to admit Jewish over-representation in the media, but not you! One has to be willfully blind not to notice Jewish over-representation in positions of power and influence. Certainly a valid topic for discussion, not to be squelched with cries of anti-Semitism. Furthermore, it is not up to me to prove anything. It falls on you to explain and justify this obvious imbalance. Now if you feel that society benefits from Birthright Brahmins just say so and we can discuss that interesting perspective. Bringing in Pickety’s statistical examination of econometric data is a red herring, as I am sure you are aware.

        Catalan- “I will be sure to tell my son to study little so that he doesn’t offend Keith’s sensibilities of too many Jews in prominent positions.”

        Good grief! Now you are playing the victimhood card? A Gentile dares to question an important aspect of political economy, and your son’s future is in the toilet? By the way, for a high-powered manager such as yourself with master’s degrees too numerous to count we at Mondoweiss are grateful that you can find so much time to share your wisdom with us, even though your “wisdom” consists of gross misrepresentations and vile anti-Semitic labeling.

        Catalan- “You can force equality but there is a natural difference of skill among men. Why some cultures are so much more successful than others….”

        Thought you could sneak that one through, didn’t you? So the over-representation of Jews in positions of power and influence is due to the “natural difference of skill among men?” One of your few honest comments indicating how you really feel. And if we try to “force” equality, what? Atlas gonna shrug? Affirmative action as reverse discrimination? You then extend your argument to successful cultures with nary a mention of the effects of imperialism and colonialism. You seem to have little, if any, concern for those less fortunate than you, the impoverished masses getting pretty much what they deserve, their fate attributed to “natural difference(s) of skill” and cultural influences. I doubt that you believe that much of the world-wide violence and poverty is a direct consequence of imperial policies and that we, as citizens of empire, have a responsibility to make changes in the global political economy to redress the consequences Western actions. No, you approve of the way things are and act as a Zionist attack dog going after those who even broach the subject. You and Hophmi, birds of a feather.

      • catalan
        April 16, 2015, 1:59 pm

        “I claimed no such thing, and you have once again misrepresented me in your typically intellectually dishonest fashion” Keith
        You have claimed that Jews are over represented in positions of power and in the media. You also claim that this is the result of “bias and favoritism”, which are your words, not mine. Bias and favoritism are illegal and against government and corporate statutes. You are alleging illegal behavior on a mass scale that somehow is not addressed and yet you are not providing any evidence.
        I agree that there a lot of successful Jews but disagree that Jews are specifically favored. I think most of their success is due to education and personal efforts.
        By the way I am not high powered, I am in middle management. I could have a bigger career but I am not interested. As to my degrees they are from Bulgarian, American and British institutions and include both humanities and economics.

  9. Brewer
    April 10, 2015, 6:00 pm

    “He referred here to the rights of Israelis to their state, which is recognized under international law.”
    Maybe my view is somewhat simplified but I tend to get a bit picky when it comes to what exactly is recognised under international law.

    By what right did the Colonial powers and the League of Nations initiate the alienation of sovereignty from an indigenous people? Similarly with the U.N. Neither Palestine nor the Zionists were members of that organisation when the carve up was made. So there is a shadow over the legitimacy of the entire enterprise.
    More importantly however, is the question of land ownership. I am perturbed that very few seem to distinguish between what was supposedly within the League’s and U.N.’s gift (sovereignty) and what was most definitely not (title to land). In all the documents attached to this issue, where does it state that individual landowners were to hand over the title deeds to Jewish immigrants? Come to that, where in International Law is any such transfer of individual property rights sanctioned?

    When Norman makes the case for “the rights of Israelis to their state, which is recognized under international law” does he mean rights to sovereignty after the Palestinian property rights are restored. At that point Israeli sovereignty could not be maintained by anything remotely resembling democracy.

    To me the land is and always will be the issue, as it has been in every indigenous rights struggle.

    • talknic
      April 11, 2015, 12:25 am

      @Brewer “When Norman makes the case for “the rights of Israelis to their state, which is recognized under international law” does he mean rights to sovereignty after the Palestinian property rights are restored”

      States have territory. UNSC and UN/UNGA resolutions and International Law talk about “territory”, not ‘land’ or ‘real estate’. e.g.,

      CHAPTER XI: DECLARATION REGARDING NON-SELF-GOVERNING TERRITORIES
      Article 73
      Members of the United Nations which have or assume responsibilities for the administration of territories whose peoples have not yet attained a full measure of self-government recognize the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount, and accept as a sacred trust the obligation to promote to the utmost, within the system of international peace and security established by the present Charter, the well-being of the inhabitants of theseterritories, and, to this end:

      a. to ensure, with due respect for the culture of the peoples concerned, their political, economic, social, and educational advancement, their just treatment, and their protection against abuses;

      b. to develop self-government, to take due account of the political aspirations of the peoples, and to assist them in the progressive development of their free political institutions, according to the particular circumstances of each territory and its peoples and their varying stages of advancement; http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter11.shtml

      Land/real estate/property can be owned by individuals, institutions and even governments foreign to a territory. However, the ownership of land/real estate/property does not confer any rights to the “territory” or to citizenship or the right to immigrate or permanently settle in a territory

      Territory belongs to all its legitimate inhabitants, whether they own land/real estate/property, rent or lease land/real estate/property or live under a bridge in a cardboard box!

      Palestinians who have not taken up citizenship of a country other than that of return do not need a deed to claim a right to return to their rightful territory. All that is necessary is for them to have been the legitimate inhabitants of a territory. Same applies to Jews from the Arab states, with the same proviso. If they have taken up citizenship in a country other than that of return, they are no longer refugees, they have the rights and protection of their new state.

      Despite the fact that Jewish individuals and Jewish Institutions owning land/real estate, Israel paid absolutely nothing for its territory.

      The US at least paid for Alaska, which only became a part of the US long after the purchase when the then Russian citizens of Alaska agreed to be annexed to and become citizens of the USA.

      Israel, the JNF et al are simply liars and thieves who will say anything to prevent Israel facing the ugly truth, it has never been able to afford to adhere the laws it first broke when Israeli/Jewish forces were in non-Israeli territory, dispossessing the rightful inhabitants on the day Israel’s boundaries were proclaimed by the Israeli Government. Now 67 years later the compensations rightly deserved by those it has dispossessed are simply astronomical.

    • Mooser
      April 11, 2015, 11:59 am

      “Territory belongs to all its legitimate inhabitants, whether they own land/real estate/property, rent or lease land/real estate/property or live under a bridge in a cardboard box!

      Thank you for including me, “Talknic”. Sure, it’s a small place but when we replace our fridge, we will enlarge the house by another box.

      “Now 67 years later the compensations rightly deserved by those it has dispossessed are simply astronomical.”

      Damn! We will probably end up having to them a bunch of our best bridges! And the Arizona seaside property, too.

  10. MRW
    April 10, 2015, 9:46 pm

    @Phil,

    I don’t think that anyone has expressed that idea more clearly.

    Uhh. You haven’t been reading the comments here over the years? ;-) This should read

    I don’t think that anyone Jewish has expressed that idea more clearly.

    @annie, great observation

    so the claim of an (from my notes) “explosion of anti semitic incidents” on american campuses, is (in my opinion) a campaign that was designed by think tanks. imho, there were clearly decisions made to promote this idea and to tackle the bds movement by attacking the movement itself (as racist) and turning jewish students into victims. i think that’s what’s happening here.

    we can see the beginnings (seeds) of this tactic back at UC berkeley divestment years ago (and continuing thru many divestment initiatives on campuses throught the US system ) by instructions to students to be emotional and talk about their ‘hurt feelings’.

    good one. EDIT: and, btw, this is getting to be soooo tedious. I care about their feelings almost as much as I care about mine.

  11. tommy
    April 10, 2015, 10:06 pm

    This report covered a lot of ground, but the conflating of long held cultural traditions and beliefs with a nationalist identity is a very important concept that informs a rationalization for both Israelis and their opponents to use violence. They succumb to the same disease.

    • talknic
      April 11, 2015, 12:39 am

      @ Tommy “They succumb to the same disease”

      Except of course Israelis are not fighting for their own territory. http://wp.me/pDB7k-Xk#googlemap

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 12:05 pm

        “Except of course Israelis are not fighting for their own territory. link to wp.me”

        “Remember, boys,, you are fighting for this woman’s honor. Which is more than she ever did!”

  12. MRW
    April 11, 2015, 12:21 am

    (listening to the video now)
    Does a state under international law have to have definable borders? Or is a declaration of statehood sufficient?

    • talknic
      April 11, 2015, 1:37 am

      MRW “Does a state under international law have to have definable borders?”

      Of course it does. Otherwise there’s no way of determining who owes a state rates & taxes. No way of defining which resources belong to a state, import/export duties, airspace, territorial waters etc. No way of telling if a state has been attacked or not.

      Not mentioning borders in the Declaration only meant the borders weren’t mentioned in the Declaration. The moronic Hasbara notion that because no borders were mentioned in the Declaration that they did/don’t exist is not only bullsh*te, it’s an admission of a blatant attempt to purposefully deceive. They really are idiots

      Israel’s sovereign extent was however undeniably proclaimed in the Israeli Government plea for recognition by which Israel was recognized and on which all subsequent UNSC resolutions are based.
      ,
      ” Or is a declaration of statehood sufficient?”

      They’re both part and parcel. “ARTICLE 1 The state as a person of international law should possess the following qualifications: a ) a permanent population; b ) a defined territory

      Further to which it has been illegal to acquire or to recognize territory acquired by war since at least 1933, any war!

      Here’s an example of JCPA duplicity One rule for the Palestinian another for Israel.

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 12:11 pm

        It threw me for a long time too, but thanks entirely to the Ziobots penchant for stepping (hell, rolling) in every pile, and Talknic’s patient efforts to clean them up enough to go in the house of veracity, I think I understand it now: Israel says one thing, whatever they think will serve their purposes, and then blithely does something else, and has been doing this since the day it was proclaimed. And yes, the things they say and the things they do may be completely contradictory, in both purpose and act. So completely contradictory to try and reconcile them is an exercise in futility.

      • MRW
        April 11, 2015, 10:18 pm

        Thanks, talknic,

        Then Finkelstein’s claim that Israel is a state under international law is wrong. Because Israel does not have defined borders. Or is he talking about ththe borders? I doubt it, because he says IIRC that Israel should stick to the 1967 borders.

      • MRW
        April 12, 2015, 9:13 am

        Here is a question asked of Max Blumenthal at his 12/2/13 National Press Club talk on his book, Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel. It was specifically about the constitution and borders. Max responds with a description of a book he read in Israel wherein the author asked Ben Gurion about why no borders. Starts at 52 minutes. There is no constitution and no borders. Why is it a state under international law and not a “territory” or partition within another country? (As original intended, btw.)

        http://www.c-span.org/video/?316519-1/book-discussion-goliath

  13. MRW
    April 11, 2015, 12:39 am

    Great talk. just finished listening to it all.

  14. talknic
    April 11, 2015, 1:05 am

    Mr Finkelstein is advocating a mere patch.

    There’s no moral, ethical, logical or legal reason why Israel should not adhere to the law and f*ck off out of all non-Israeli territories for once and;

    There’s no moral, ethical, logical or legal reason why the Palestinians should forgo ANY of their legal rights with or without negotiations.

    The fact is Israel simply cannot afford the compensations due by law for its 67 years of illegal dispossession and illegal facts on the ground in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” none of which have ever been legally acquired by Israel.

    The only legal way out for the State of Israel is to strike a plea bargain with the Palestinians and hope their extreme generosity holds out. However, Israel refuses at every turn, every offer. Unfortunately 67 and more years of deceit have become habitual, a pathological nightmare

    • Dan
      April 11, 2015, 11:04 am

      NF is a stickler when it comes to the law, and although not a lawyer himself he routinely cites
      qualified legal opinions to support his arguments.

      When has he advocated that the Palestinians should forgo any of their legal rights. – please cite?

      Also please cite a legal authority – analysis by a qualified legal expert or a court ruling that supports your contention. My understanding is that you do not have any legal training or experience.

      • talknic
        April 11, 2015, 2:00 pm

        Dan “When has he advocated that the Palestinians should forgo any of their legal rights. – please cite?”

        I’d have cited him if I’d thought that’s what he advocated. It’s want Israel wants, but has no legal right to demand.

        “Also please cite a legal authority – analysis by a qualified legal expert or a court ruling that supports your contention. “

        What do you think the UNSC is? Playschool?

        Israel has never legally acquired ANY territory by ANY agreement outside of those proclaimed by the Israeli Government May 15th 1948 in order to be recognized.

        No one has ever been able to produce the agreement which MUST exist for any territories outside of Israel’s proclaimed and recognized boundaries to have legally become Israeli, because of the simple fact that they are not yet Israeli by any agreement. The Israeli Government admits by its own statement on land swaps.

        Why does Israel need to swap if it’s already Israeli. Reason is of course because it ain’t Israeli yet!

        There are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem because it has been illegal for states to recognize territories acquired by war since 1933

        My understanding is that you do not have any legal training or experience

        So what? The actual words of the LoN Mandate for Palestine prove the Howard Grief’s in this world have either never read or must carefully omit Article 7 of the Mandate or they’re idiots

        Nor have they read or must carefully omit the fact that even the Israeli Government acknowledges the Mandate terminated May 14th midnight 1948

        They spout what is easily proven beyond a doubt to be nonsense by the documents they cite. IOW They’re liars. Charlatans. Trading in bullsh*t for the gullible

      • peeesss
        April 11, 2015, 4:24 pm

        Dan. NF has stated numerous times that the Resolutions affirming the Right of Return for Palestinian Refugees cannot , will not happen due to the opposition of the State of Israel. Therefore he states that those resolutions are irrevelant since, to him, they cannot be implemented. Obviously this opinion is in opposition to the “legal” right of the Palestinians.

      • Mooser
        April 11, 2015, 7:48 pm

        Once again, there’s no point in mixing up what is right, what is legal, and what Israel might end up getting away with.

        Yes, Israel may end up getting away with a lot, but there’s no reason why anybody has to go and turn themselves inside out convincing themselves that because Israel gets away with it, it must be right and must be called right, or legal.

        Besides, haven’t Israel made it clear enough that if they that if they were ever forced to live within their own declared borders and within the framework they committed to they couldn’t exist in that state!

  15. John Salisbury
    April 11, 2015, 3:14 am

    ‘…..as to the charge that it is anti-Semitic to single out Israel when many other countries do bad or worse stuff…’
    Yes. But unlike Israel we are not forced to endorse them.

  16. Dan
    April 11, 2015, 10:32 am

    A couple of comments about the article, but first by way of background:
    I have been following NF’s career since his “Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict”was first published as a book – maybe 20 or so years ago. It may have been available to some as a thesis before that – not sure.
    Have watched many of his talks/interviews on Youtube and have developed a respect for him over the years

    Other relatively recent youtube postings I think are worth viewing are the interview
    with Mehdi Hasan on Al Jazeera’s “Head to Head”, and his talk at University College Dublin (good question and answer session). NF says that his views on the ME haven’t changed, but the ground has shifted, so while he appeared radical years ago, what he says now is pretty mainstream, but he is the same person he has always been.

    I don’t know why the author PW finds it “Remarkable” that NF would draw a distinction between the South African “two state solution” (Bantustans) and the Israel/Palestine situation. As NF says over and over,and the article alludes to, he goes by what the law says, and International Law is clear with regard to 2SS in Israel/Palestine, and borders. With the borders as recognized under law, it can be argued that Palestine wouldn’t be a bantustan, although perhaps not full justice as some see it. (The situations are not analogous in other ways, besides law and world opinion, but will leave that to another post)

    “He called this “a naïve and almost silly position,”
    and one that did not reflect the South Africa experience, where a mass movement liberated the country.

    NF didn’t merely say that a mass movement was sufficient. He has been more specific than that. (I’m referring to his talk at Dublin during Q/A – haven’t viewed all of Wisconsin yet)
    He has said for great struggles to succeed, requires the support of state actors.
    He has argued that without the support of the African Union, the struggle against Apartheid would have failed, and without the support the USSR and China gave to Vietnam, that struggle would have gone nowhere; civil society activism alone would not have carried the day.
    In that light, the fact that no nation supports one state (as mentioned in the article) is relevant.
    If Israel had to bear a cost for the occupation, then its supposed support for one state, as the author PW sees it, would also most likely wither, because the majority of the population is against it.

  17. John Fearey
    April 11, 2015, 12:24 pm

    I totally agree with Prof. Finkelstein that Israel is doing no favors to worldwide Jewry on the anti-Semitic front. For me anti-Semitism is a confusing issue since I simply cannot fathom hating a Jew for being Jewish. A couple of times in my life I’ve made brief forays into the subject, reading portions of the unreadable Mein Kampf or reading about bizarre forgeryThe Protocols of Elder of Zion. Killing Christ, wasn’t that the Romans? And then I went to Jerusalem last fall and became filled with a personal rage the likes of which I have rarely experienced. This was no museum or memorial but real live horror. I kept repeating to myself that I’m not anti-Semitic, just anti-Zionist, but this was a less than convincing mantra in light of the simultaneous messaging from supporters of Israel there and in the U.S. saying criticism of Israel=anti-Semitism and Bibi claiming his mantle as King of the Jews. So, did I come home an anti-Semite?
    On the subject of keeping count of how many Jews go to Ivy League schools (plus Stanford) or win literary or Nobel prizes, while I’m happy for Jewish self esteem, is that really helpful in the US or for my poor victimized WASP self esteem. While I thought of going to the Forbes list of the wealthiest or some other list likely to make me feel better about my heritage it occurred to me that my tribe, if you include the ancient Romans, Greeks, Vikings (my personal favorite), basically brought you the entirety of western civilization, including the Renaissance, Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, Capitalism, Colonialism, the capacity to drink vast quantities of alcohol and to visit untold death, destruction and terror on indigenous people throughout the world. So there! But who’s keeping count?

    • Walid
      April 11, 2015, 1:22 pm

      “Killing Christ, wasn’t that the Romans? ” (John F.)

      Romans executed him but the hit had been instigated by the Jews. Jesus was arrested by a group of Jews in the Garden of Gethsemane. That’s when Peter drew his word and cut off the ear of one of the Jews. Jesus was then taken to the head priest that didn’t get anywhere interrogating him so he was sent over to Pilate that found him not guilty but the Jews insisted that Pilate condemn him. Pilate tried to get out of it by asking the Jews to decide on sparing either Barrabas the thief or Jesus as a Passover gift to the Jews but the Jews chose to save the life of Barrabas. So it was a Jewish hit job from the start; the Romans simply went along along to keep the Jews happy and executed Jesus because the Jews were not allowed to execute anyone.

      It’s somewhat as what happened in Sabra Shatilla to the Palestinians. Technically, it was the Lebanese militia that did the butchering but they were able to do it only because the Israelis held the Palestinians down, provided night lighting and other logistical support that made the butchering possible. So you could say that it was actually the Israelis that were responsible for the massacres even though the Lebanese did the killing.

      So yes, the Jews were actually behind the killing of Jesus.

      • eGuard
        April 11, 2015, 2:26 pm

        Walid, always check what when you write the Jews. Usually the the be dropped.

      • MHughes976
        April 11, 2015, 3:27 pm

        Of course, all this is very much disputed in modern scholarship though you are unquestionably right that this is what the four Gospels, written amid ferocious disputes after the Fall of the Temple in 70, actually say. However the Pauline writings, in which (though there are things to which Jews object) Jewish responsibility for Jesus’ death is not a theme and Jews ‘have much advantage every way’, is also part of Christian tradition.

      • yonah fredman
        April 11, 2015, 3:41 pm

        walid demonstrates precisely the overlap of jew hatred and antizionism. this one belongs in a picture book: behold the overlap.

      • Walid
        April 11, 2015, 4:25 pm

        MHughes, I remember reading eons ago, how before Guttenberg the first scribes were not averse to editing what they were transcribing to make the stories more in line to what they believed they should be.

        You mentioned the four Gospels that made it into the Bible; the earliest version came out about 40 years after the death of Jesus while the last came out about 100 years after. So a whole lot of editing may have taken place. There are a dozen or so other Gospels but they were not approved for insertion into the New Testament.

        There was just about the same argument about the compilation of the Quran that had been in bits and pieces here and there until the approved chapters were finally accepted in book form about 40 years after the death of the prophet. While editing of chapters was never put in question, there was some picking and choosing about which chapters or parts of chapters would form part of the finished product.

        So all these excercises and arguments about material compiled centuries ago under dubious circumstances is pure gymnastics. As to Paul, he barely mentions Jesus (twice only) and some of the apostles that had spent years with Paul didn’t bother mentioning him in the Gospels.

      • JWalters
        April 11, 2015, 7:38 pm

        According to the Gospels as written, Jesus was arrested for, and essentially right after, kicking the bankers out of the temple. The bankers manipulated his trial and execution. The crowd who chose to free Barrabas were probably unwitting dupes in the scheme.

      • RoHa
        April 12, 2015, 4:20 am

        ” the first scribes were not averse to editing what they were transcribing to make the stories more in line to what they believed they should be.”

        Not averse? It was a cottage industry. Early Christian writers had little sense of intellectual honesty. (Unlike their pagan contemporaries.) They were liars. The whole corpus of E. C. literature -canonical and non-canonical- is a totally untrustworthy mass of fiction, fraud, and forgery.

        “You mentioned the four Gospels that made it into the Bible; the earliest version came out about 40 years after the death of Jesus while the last came out about 100 years after.”

        Since the 1950s, scholars have tried to make the dates as early as possible. Yours are the current orthodoxy, though there seems to be some movement towards the older view that the Gospels were actually written later than that.

        “So all these excercises and arguments about material compiled centuries ago under dubious circumstances is pure gymnastics.”

        And how! Just about any argument concerning the material is met by a counter-argument. The professionals cannot convince each other, and that is a result of the inherent uncertainty of the material.

        “As to Paul, he barely mentions Jesus (twice only) and some of the apostles that had spent years with Paul didn’t bother mentioning him in the Gospels.”

        There is no solid reason to think that the disciples of Jesus (if any of them existed) had anything to do with the four novels.

        When we read the letters which are judged to have been written by Paul (several attributed to him are thought to be forgeries) there is little indication that he thought of Jesus as having been a figure of flesh and blood, rather than a supernatural being. But that, of course, is one of the topics of scholarly dispute. He does seem to have had dealings with characters in Jerusalem, but no indication that those people had been disciples of Jesus rather than mere apostles.

      • hophmi
        April 12, 2015, 8:18 am

        And here, we have the Christ-killing accusation. But it’s only anti-Zionism, folks, only anti-Zionism. ,

      • Kris
        April 12, 2015, 10:14 am

        @eGuard: “Walid, always check what when you write the Jews. Usually the the be dropped.”

        We say “the Nazis,” not “Nazis,” even though there were Nazis who did not agree with the program. We say “the U.S,” not “U.S. citizens,” even though there are U.S. citizens who do not support U.S. policies. We are talking about who has the power to set policy. So it was “the Jews,” i.e. the ruling Jewish authorities, who were responsible for executing Jesus.

      • Walid
        April 12, 2015, 10:34 am

        Yonah, are you saying that I hate Jews as much as I hate the Zionists?

      • just
        April 12, 2015, 10:43 am

        What the heck are you saying, yonah?

      • Walid
        April 12, 2015, 10:50 am

        “Walid, always check what when you write the Jews. Usually the the be dropped. ” (eGuard)

        I get your point, eGuard, but my problem comes from both the Arabic that refer to the people collectively as “al-Yahud” or “the Jews” and likewise in French where we say “les juifs” or “the Jews”; there’s no way of bypassing use of the articles “al” and “les” in any sentence structure as you could in English. When I’m more conscious of what I’m writing, I usually take care of using “some Jews” to avoid hurting sensitivities of people like Yonah, but people that actually know me are aware that I have no animosity whatever towards Jews as a people, unless of course they are Zionist ones.

      • Walid
        April 12, 2015, 11:33 am

        “He does seem to have had dealings with characters in Jerusalem, but no indication that those people had been disciples of Jesus rather than mere apostles. ” (RoHa)

        In the Quranic version of the story of Jesus, the apostles or deciples are depicted as somewhat childish as they kept asking Jesus to perform a miracle, especially as it concerned spreading a table full of food before them with the help of God. They pretended that it was to be witnesses to miracles which they would relay to the people later, but these guys simply wanted a free show and a good meal.

        As to Paul, the greatest marketer in history, until he came on board, Christians that had basically been converted Jews numbered less than 3000 as they were still adhering to Jesus’ rule of not altering the Judaic religion and not allowing non-Jews to join. With Paul in charge of marketing, 7 churches were set up in Turkey and Asia Minor with each contributing to the mother church in Jerusalem. Jewish dietary laws and circumcision were tossed out the window, which opened the door wide open to the non-Jews. Paul’s new religion hardly had anything to do with Jesus.

      • MHughes976
        April 12, 2015, 4:24 pm

        ‘The Jews’ is a disturbing locution, I agree, though since Walid was expounding the New Testament and since that kind of locution ‘ the doors were shut for fear of the Jews’ of Jn. 20 etc., is present in the NT he was drawing attention to a fact that we Christians have to recognise. That passage from Jn was read in CofE churches this very morning.
        What I said about Paul is heavily dependent on taking IThess. 2/13 ff as concerning the bad elements within Jewry rather than ‘the Jews’ as we might take that term. The advantageous position of the Jews is affirmed in Romans 3/1 and is an important part of the argument.
        There is little historical information about Jesus to be found in Paul, I agree, but there are abundant references to him under various titles – most of the major Epistles beginning with a reference to Paul’s devotion to ‘Jesus Christ, the Lord’.
        I think that it is reasonably clear that the New Testament was a collection formed about 150 during Marcion’s leadership of the Roman church. He used his great riches to import (he is said to have owned a shipping firm) and centralise Christian texts. He fell out with other Roman Christians and was thoroughly demonised and arguments about the authentic text, – arguments which very much spread to questions about Jewish scriptures and their authority, hence to questions about Christianity as separate from Judaism – became tangled up with questions about his personality. This ‘Old Roman Bible’ must have been formed from texts that already had a reputation and which may have been composed, in their main substance, much earlier but which were still being edited: I and II Thess, for instance, are surely different versions of a similar ‘Epistle’ for which different groups in Thessalonica vouched.
        The editing process must have reflected growing Jewish-Christian tensions which had probably reached screaming pitch during the Bar-Kochba Revolt which ended in 135 and led to ‘Judaea’s’ becoming ‘Palestine’ again.
        All this may seem to be rambling on far away from our real topic on Mondoweiss: not entirely, I think. There’s no use denying that Christianity and Judaism had mutually acrimonious elements in their relationship from the beginning but positive elements were there too and still are. I can’t question that Jews and Christians have sometimes come to see each as blocs – ‘the Jews’, ‘them’. But this stereotyping vision was never total and isn’t now. Jews and Christians can be fair to each other.
        I think Finkelstein is quite right, almost obviously so, to say that the ‘Jewish state’ terminology strongly encourages stereotyping.

      • echinococcus
        April 13, 2015, 12:15 am

        Hophmi says: “And here, we have the Christ-killing accusation.”

        A little logic, please: we don’t have any historical documents. All the Christ story is based on Gospels, official and apocryphal, and all are agreed that the person in question was executed by the will of the Jews of Jerusalem, the Central Committee making sure first to obtain an overwhelmingly favorable vote in an open General Assembly, after the Roman governor, who had shown an intention of exercising some clemency, had left the person’s fate in their hands.

        So either bring some different and more valid historical documentation, or stop bellyaching about people who only repeat what the available fictional documentation says. Nothing you can do about that. Anyway, it’s not about you, it’s about people who lived ages ago. No relation to any of us.

      • Walid
        April 13, 2015, 7:31 am

        “This ‘Old Roman Bible’ must have been formed from texts that already had a reputation and which may have been composed, in their main substance, much earlier but which were still being edited…” (MHughes)

        As RoHa has already noted,there was a lot of editing and re-writing going on by the scribes. The same could be said about all the fantastic stories of the Old Testament that became the basis of both Christianity and Islam. Most of Genesis is a rehash of older Assyrian and Sumerian folklore. For all three religions, manuscripts, parchments, dried camel skin or whatever the stories had been written on were gathered for compilation and items that did not fit the desired narrative were simply discarded.

        For the full list of 99 other gospels there were not accepted for insertion into the New Testament:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gospels

      • Sibiriak
        April 13, 2015, 11:05 pm

        Kris: “We say “the U.S,” not “U.S. citizens,” even though there are U.S. citizens who do not support U.S. policies. ”

        ———

        Yes, and it’s a huge, obfuscating error when “we” do. Routinely, actions by a concrete power elite are demagogically conflated with the actions of a fictive organic national entity.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 12, 2015, 1:52 am

      On the subject of keeping count of how many Jews go to Ivy League schools (plus Stanford) or win literary or Nobel prizes, while I’m happy for Jewish self esteem, is that really helpful in the US or for my poor victimized WASP self esteem.

      it’s not wasp self esteem that concerns me, it’s that those degrees determine who gets the good jobs — that lasts a lifetime, generations. it also determines a heavy percentage of acceptance at top universities for future generations based on alumni, it’s called legacy preference:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences

      The Ivy League institutions are estimated to admit 10% to 30% of each entering class using this factor.[3][4]

      • MRW
        April 12, 2015, 6:51 am

        annie,

        OT. Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=562&v=c1IIrHsO4fw. Happened Friday.

      • hophmi
        April 12, 2015, 8:31 am

        If you’re worried about legacy admissions, then worry about legacy admissions. Jews have benefitted very little from it. They’ve been admitted to Ivy League institutions in real numbers from maybe two or three generations, and until the 1960’s, they were admitted in the face of discrimination, rather than benefitting from any alleged institutional bias in their favor.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 12, 2015, 11:30 am

        hops, my comment referenced future generations. the 60’s is irrelevant.

      • jon s
        April 12, 2015, 11:15 am

        Kris, Are you saying that there were Nazis who didn’t agree with Nazism?

      • Annie Robbins
        April 12, 2015, 12:19 pm

        jon, wasn’t there compulsory military conscription? i’m not sure there was a way to opt out if they wanted you in the army. under these circumstances i don’t see how there could not have been people who didn’t agree.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 12, 2015, 11:26 am

        i’ve watched parts of it mrw but i don’t have 4 hours right now. i also watched some of the livestream on friday. thanks for the link.

      • just
        April 12, 2015, 12:12 pm

        Of course there were.

        There were children who were forced into the Hitler Youth and Germans, Austrians, etc that forced/drafted into the odious military and support corps. The only way out for German, and other “approved” citizens in other occupied and besieged countries not to pledge allegiance to Hitler, was to end up in the camps and/or executed.

      • Bumblebye
        April 12, 2015, 12:24 pm

        MRW
        thanks for that link – it explains why I’ve been unable to get the darn thing to play when it’s been posted in comment sections here & elsewhere. It’s not been made available on mobile platforms like my pesky tablet!

    • yonah fredman
      April 12, 2015, 4:00 pm

      Walid- No, from reading your comments in the past I would say that your hatred of Zionism measures between 99 and 100 on a scale of 100 and your hatred of Jews measures somewhere between 5 and 20 on a scale of 100.

      Utilizing the Christ killer meme to attack Zionism is classic antisemitism in the service of anti Zionism.

      By the way: Luke is filled with certain pro Jewish comments that are missing from the other gospels: primarily: some of the pharisees warned Jesus that the Herodians are out to kill you and Jesus said, “nonetheless I cannot hide my glory out of fear”. paraphrase.

      also: the thief was a freedom fighter. Barabbas fought for the zealots and the term thief was used to denigrate, like terrorist today. the zealots were famous in Jerusalem and Jesus was an unknown. the Jews voted to free Barabbas, a freedom fighter and not some magician enigmatic preacher rabbi from Galilee. That’s called all politics is local and freedom fighter wins out over multiplying loaves and fishes.

      Those who cite the new testament to condemn the Jews display an awesome blindness regarding the politics of the day in Jerusalem. The Sanhedrin, even if the gospel reports are accurate about their culpability, were nonetheless status quo politicians backing Herod and the rule of Rome. These were quislings, not representatives of the people. If a similar situation occurred today anywhere in the world you would right away pick up on government and anti government dynamics and tell a full story with all the politics complete. but the new testament and its tendency towards hate allows you to skip any political analysis. bravo stupidity and ignorance. long may you reign.

      • Walid
        April 13, 2015, 6:59 am

        “Those who cite the new testament to condemn the Jews display an awesome blindness regarding the politics of the day in Jerusalem.” (Yonah)

        Must be an awful feeling to always feel persecuted, Yonah. I only tried explaining to John F. that it wasn’t all about the Romans as he was thinking. I have no reason to disparage the Jews of the time of Jews.

        BTW, about Luke that you mentioned, 2/3 of the supposedly written Gospel According to Luke and the Book of Acts (he wasn’t even a disciple , or was around the time of Jesus) was taken from Mark and Matthew; You can guess as to where he got the remaining 1/3; it’s said that he was a long time companion of Paul. The missing pro-Jewish part you mentioned are probably found in that 1/3 or from words “prompted” to him by super-salesman Paul that wanted to please everybody.

      • Walid
        April 13, 2015, 7:43 am

        Yonah, your assessment of my appreciation of Zionists is very accurate and this only because of Palestine but you are wrong on how I feel about Jews. I always felt closer to Jews than to any other group.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 13, 2015, 8:04 am

        Utilizing the Christ killer meme to attack Zionism is classic antisemitism in the service of anti Zionism.

        yonah, there was nothing in walid’s statement referencing zionism. other than hophmi’s allegation, and now yours, there’s just nothing there. if you’re going to launch into another of your accusatory declarations about who is an who is not an anti semite could you be gracious enough to please copy/paste the sentence or phrase you are objecting to please.

        or, in the future, if you find your accusatory comment is trashed could you try re sending it after citing/including the exact phrase you’re referencing as the basis for your accusation please.

        no one here (that i have noticed) is conflating judaism w/zionism or connecting this period in the bible w/zionism or “serving anti zionism” in the context of the biblical remarks. also this:

        Those who cite the new testament to condemn the Jews display an awesome blindness regarding the politics of the day in Jerusalem.

        where’s the part about walid “condemning the jews”. i think they are clarifying what the new testament says. granted i have not read it and am completely unknowledgeable about biblical times (and have expressed before i have serious doubts about all those allegations including the idea christ ever existed as a man – vs a movement but that another conversation) but i don’t think people discussing (or clarifying as in the case of walid’s response to john) the bible is related to zionism or anti zionism.

        so unless both you and hops are just on a kick of poisoning an otherwise interesting thread could you cease and desist please. or provide evidence other than your own hunch. a quote/ passage/ paragraph or something to substantiate your accusations please. thanks.

      • talknic
        April 13, 2015, 10:53 am

        @ Annie

        “unless both you and hops are just on a kick of poisoning an otherwise interesting thread could you cease and desist please. or provide evidence other than your own hunch. a quote/ passage/ paragraph or something to substantiate your accusations please. thanks”

        You should know better than to even ask :-)

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 11:04 am

        No, from reading your comments in the past I would say that your hatred of Zionism measures between 99 and 100 on a scale of 100 and your hatred of Jews measures somewhere between 5 and 20 on a scale of 100.”

        At last! Thank You Yonah! At last we have standard, verifiable, measurable, increments for antisemitism ratings! It’s about time measuring antisemitism was brought into the modern digital age! I’ll start working on an I-phone “App”. Find out the “Antisemitism-antizionism numbers” which tell you what your burden of hatred is!

        I guess we could call it your “Schlep-number” setting.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 12:01 pm

        “These were quislings, not representatives of the people.”

        Gosh, is any other religion plagued by all these mosers in its own leadership? Nobody know the tsuris we’ve seen!
        Quislings at the top, Litvaks on the bottom.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 2:09 pm

        ” I always felt closer to Jews than to any other group.”

        As long as they are more upscale than used-tire and car dealers.
        I guess you like to live dangerously. That’s your privilege. I stick to people I can trust!

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 2:15 pm

        “allegations including the idea christ ever existed as a man”

        Well, he probably did. People didn’t have the same flexibility in those matters of that we now have. Of course, we have no way of knowing how he really felt inside.
        On the other hand, everybody wore dresses back then, (I’m sure the pictures in my Dore’ Bible are accurate) so maybe there was more gender-bending than we know about. It’s worth considering. Christ may have existed as a man, but we have no way of knowing if He would rather have been a woman, except from what He’s reputed to have said.

      • yonah fredman
        April 13, 2015, 8:08 pm

        annie- here’s what walid wrote: It’s somewhat as what happened in Sabra Shatilla to the Palestinians. Technically, it was the Lebanese militia that did the butchering but they were able to do it only because the Israelis held the Palestinians down, provided night lighting and other logistical support that made the butchering possible. So you could say that it was actually the Israelis that were responsible for the massacres even though the Lebanese did the killing. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/violence-calling-finkelstein#comment-760729

        It is true that Walid was not commenting on Zionism but on the specific acts at a particular time by Israel. But although the implications of the analogy are indeed unclear. It seems clear that Walid seemed to be saying, just like the Jews at the time of Jesus were ultimately responsible for Jesus’s death, so the Israelis at the time of Sabra Shatila were ultimately responsible for the killings by the Phalange.

        my first intention is to communicate with Walid, who seemed to have no problem with the question that I posed. then, if you want a quote, in my good time, that’s how this delayed communication works with me. i write, i wait a day, i read, i add a quote, i wait a day. you call me poisonous. i react. i wait a day. it’s very zen, annie. this is the pace that works for me. sorry.

      • Sibiriak
        April 13, 2015, 11:27 pm

        yonah fredman: “The Sanhedrin, even if the gospel reports are accurate about their culpability, were nonetheless status quo politicians backing Herod and the rule of Rome. These were quislings, not representatives of the people. ”

        ———-

        Good point . I find it almost always inappropriate to use the expression “the Jews”, unless quoting another source.

      • Walid
        April 14, 2015, 2:29 am

        “It is true that Walid was not commenting on Zionism but on the specific acts at a particular time by Israel.” (Yonah)

        I used the Sabra-Shatila example to demonstrate a parallel/guilt between the party that does the actual killing and the party that orders the killing simply to address the usual alibi used by Jews that the killing of Jesus like the killing of the Sabra-Shatila Palestinians was not done by Jews/Israelis but by others. In his post, John F. appeared to support the Jewish concept that it was the Romans that killed Jesus and I wanted to clear up this statement.

      • Mooser
        April 14, 2015, 9:33 pm

        “The Sanhedrin, even if the gospel reports are accurate about their culpability, were nonetheless status quo politicians backing Herod and the rule of Rome. These were quislings, not representatives of the people.” Yonah

        And why would Jewish Leadership today be any different? When did we institute procedures to qualify our leaders and hold them to account? Why would the Jewish leaders of today be any better than the Jewish Leaders of any age? In fact, having more power, they are worse.

    • Mooser
      April 12, 2015, 7:33 pm

      “basically brought you the entirety of western civilization, including the Renaissance, Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, Capitalism, Colonialism, the capacity to drink vast quantities of alcohol and to visit untold death, destruction and terror on indigenous people throughout the world.”

      Well, that may be true, but I never see any adds on TV saying: “You can turn your Cultural Inheritance into immediate cash, call this number today!”

  18. traintosiberia
    April 11, 2015, 12:33 pm

    http://forward.com/articles/9830/top-dem-wesley-clark-says-ny-money-people-pu/#ixzz3X1BCJBnZ
    Wesley Clark is antisemitic for saying ‘N.Y. Money People’ Pushing War With Iran

    Adelson, Paul Singer and the money suppilers to Cotton ,Kirk,McCain are not exactly refuting that assertion anymore –

    re-http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/how-the-gop-became-the-israel-party/

    • OyVey00
      April 11, 2015, 5:41 pm

      Of course everyone knows what ‘N.Y. Money People’ stands for! Oy vey, dastardly anti-semites!

      That being said, gotta call Mr Spielberg to convince him to make more movies about Jews being poor street beggars.

    • jon s
      April 12, 2015, 1:15 pm

      Annie, Just,
      You’re both right, of course.
      That’s why Kris should have written “Germans” and “Austrians” , not “Nazis”.

  19. eGuard
    April 11, 2015, 2:42 pm

    With no other connection than being recent, here is Finkelstein in a Cambridge Union [UK] debate “This House Believes Israel is a Rogue State” from 1:11:50. The public was not taking nonsense.

  20. echinococcus
    April 12, 2015, 1:48 am

    The statement by Finkelstein, self-evident and beautifully simple, comes at a time when there are practically no incidents of antisemitism, and an increasing frequency of “antisemitism” directly related to Zionism, or directed against persons defining themselves Jewish for their effective support of Zionism.
    Which brings us to the urgent necessity to define “Antisemitism”, urgent because of some campus shenanigans but most of all because it cancels free speech in Europe. What shall it be, discrimination against Jews because of:
    – their religion (common sense definition, but not necessarily racist)
    – their imagined racial-tribal descent (Zionists’ and WWII-Germany definition)
    – something else? What?

    • Philip Weiss
      April 12, 2015, 8:20 pm

      We have no idea if the victims in the Kosher supermarket were Zionists. That was outright anti-Semitism, though Finkelstein says that there’s a correlation between such acts and Israeli massacres

      • echinococcus
        April 12, 2015, 8:46 pm

        Mr Weiss, you are trying to avoid the question.
        As for the side question of the correlation between the Zionist occupation and any terrorist acts against nominally Jewish targets, it is obvious. The mobilizing value of terrorist acts against Jews is all in the Zionist occupation: after all, European fundamentalist Moslems are neither more sophisticated nor more intelligent than the average Robertson follower or the average Republican US anti-Islamist. The ones who have been waging war and massacring Palestinians, not to mention the Lebanese, Syrians and Egyptians are the Yahud; their own leaders have been saying so for longer than a century, what is there do doubt for a simple mind? And an overwhelming majority do support Zionism anyway.
        We’ll have to be way more precise in characterizing “anti-Semitism”.

    • Mooser
      April 13, 2015, 1:01 pm

      “– something else? What?”

      Well, I’ve got a guy, a friggin teacher(!), downthread, who wants to tell you that our “sexual behavior is different”. That’ll certainly stir resentment. I wonder what he meant by that? Maybe he will tell us.

      • Bumblebye
        April 13, 2015, 2:30 pm

        Maybe he’s thinking of the piece last year that went on about casual sex in Tel Aviv nightclub restrooms? Not my kinda thing so my resentment won’t be stirred.

      • echinococcus
        April 13, 2015, 2:38 pm

        Mooser, trying to confuse me, eh? Does he mean the hole in the bedsheet and the special long prayer before and after, or the Tel Aviv restroom orgies and the Zionist porn moviemakers? “All of the above” won’t be accepted as an answer by this still naive guy.

      • Mooser
        April 14, 2015, 9:38 pm

        “echinococcus” my ever-hungry friend, the only thing I could come up with this: Jewish couples don’t wait til they get home from the wedding to start smashing the glassware, but other than that, I have no idea what he is talking about.

        Unless, of course “Jon s” is claiming us Jews are more chaste, and less promiscuous than those slutty Gentiles? Could that be what he means?

      • echinococcus
        April 15, 2015, 2:19 am

        Mooser, like you I don’t know if this Jewishness specialist is talking about puritanical chastity or porn-movie Birthright orgies with Tsahalistas. In both cases, though, I’m telling you I started to doubt my Jewishness, the more so as the same specialist (or some other) established a general requirement of dressing Askenazi-style.

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 3:02 pm

        “he more so as the same specialist (or some other) established a general requirement of dressing Askenazi-style.”

        And I’m pretty sure he’s dead wrong about most of it. Google “sumptuary laws” or “sumptuary laws Jews” or the like and make up your own mind.

        As far as the “sexual behavior” goes, I haven’t the slightest idea what he is talking about, and I sure wish “Jon s” would tell us. I’m very nervous about it. Maybe I was supposed to have a “latency period”? I don’t even remember a “wait-and-see” period.

      • hophmi
        April 15, 2015, 3:12 pm

        Not that I want to feed the snake here, but I think Jon S is referring to the observance by Jews of laws regarding both sexual activity and hygiene, which may have set Jews apart from their neighbors in that regard. Why Mooser is so exercised about this, I have no idea.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2015, 11:50 am

        “Not that I want to feed the snake here, but I think Jon S is referring to the observance by Jews of laws regarding both sexual activity and hygiene,”

        So Hophmi, are we a little sexier and much cleaner than Gentiles, or just a little cleaner and much sexier?
        Or are you bragging about how dirty and impotent Judaism makes us?

  21. jon s
    April 12, 2015, 4:37 am

    Back in the 19th century Jews thought that Anti-Semitism could be reduced if Jews would change their behaviour, their appearance, their occupations , and so forth. The premise was that Anti-Semitism had something to do with what Jews actually did.

    It didn’t work.

    As Jews and as human beings, we should do what’s right and what’s moral, without expecting our actions to have any impact on Anti-Semites.

    • RoHa
      April 12, 2015, 6:37 am

      “Back in the 19th century Jews thought that Anti-Semitism could be reduced if Jews would change their behaviour, their appearance, their occupations , and so forth. The premise was that Anti-Semitism had something to do with what Jews actually did.

      It didn’t work.”

      Worked well in Britain and Australia.

      “As Jews and as human beings, we should do what’s right and what’s moral”

      And some Jews do.

      • Mooser
        April 12, 2015, 6:28 pm

        “As Jews and as human beings, we should do what’s right and what’s moral”

        And how can anything Zionism does or says come under that rubric, “Jon s”? When have the Zionists ever done what is right or moral, either to Jews or anybody else?
        C’mon, man, don’t play us for suckers.

      • Mooser
        April 12, 2015, 7:07 pm

        “C’mon, man, don’t play us for suckers.”

        Sorry, “Jon s”, but look the way I heard it, the terrible exigencies of persecution against Jews, and the genocidal intent and accomplishments of anti-semites, made Zionism an historical imperative for Jewish survival which, of necessity, could dispense with the ordinary legal and moral codes (under which the Jews had only suffered) to acheive the aim of self-determination. Isn’t that what you heard?
        I’d be terribly disappointed to learn that it could have been done all ‘moral and right’, but we preferred not to do it that way.

    • Kris
      April 12, 2015, 10:30 am

      Attacks on Jews spike each time Israel slaughters more than a few Palestinians. So why do you think that the actions of the “Jewish state” have nothing to do with what you call “anti-semitism”? How is it not blowback, misplaced onto innocent Jews abroad?

      I’m left wondering what Jews have done that is “what’s right and what’s moral” in the “Jewish state” of Israel. Please help me here.

      Hosea 10:13
      But you have planted wickedness, you have reaped evil, you have eaten the fruit of deception. Because you have depended on your own strength and on your many warriors,
      14 Therefore a tumult will arise among your people, And all your fortresses will be destroyed,

      • Mooser
        April 12, 2015, 6:33 pm

        “14 Therefore a tumult will arise among your people, And all your fortresses will be destroyed,”

        “In Israel there’s a rising tide of racism , xenophobia and anti-democratic tendencies, especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews.” “Jon s” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s#sthash.oHvNKffa.dpuf

        He’s a very informed commenter, almost prophetic. But I wish he would watch out for the TU. I mean, c’mon, slagging Israelis like that?

      • jon s
        April 13, 2015, 2:06 am

        Kris,
        Like other countries, there’s a lot that’s good in Israel, and also plenty that should be changed and improved.
        If you want an example, we could take the health-care system. On the positive side, there’s universal, mandatory , health insurance, There’s no-one who’s not covered, by law. On the negative side, there are often long waiting lists, hospitals tend to be over-crowded, and there’s inequality, since wealthier people can obtain better care.

    • Mooser
      April 12, 2015, 6:38 pm

      “It didn’t work.”

      Notice how any country which simply regards Jews as ordinary citizens doesn’t interest “Jon s”. Somehow those countries aren’t relevant.

    • Mooser
      April 12, 2015, 6:43 pm

      “Anti-Semitism could be reduced if Jews would change their behaviour, their appearance,”

      There’s a certain Jewish “appearance”? And a certain Jewish “behavior”? What the hell is that supposed to mean? That we all have to play dress-up like you want us to? And as far as the “behavior” goes, I shudder at even making inquiries. God only know what you think that might be. Wait, let me guess, it probably involves listening to you and doing what you say.

      • gamal
        April 12, 2015, 9:33 pm

        ok, its weird because this reply appears to be above the previously sort of relevant one however as an act cultural benevolence, i meant it, i would like to offer Salamatu Mai Gurmi to all

        Imagine if you had a mere two strings, you moog corrupted fools, yet you could do this, God loves Nigerians, of the north, more than others, and who could blame him

        https://youtu.be/sztELbeZAng

    • eljay
      April 13, 2015, 8:08 am

      || jon seee: As Jews and as human beings, we should do what’s right and what’s moral … ||

      …but as Zio-supremacists you choose not to.

      • jon s
        April 13, 2015, 9:32 am

        eljay, (may I call you eljayeee?…)
        I try to do what’s right and moral, and I believe in equality, not supremacism. I hope you do, too.

      • eljay
        April 13, 2015, 9:48 am

        || jon seee: eljay, (may I call you eljayeee?…) ||

        If you like, although it wouldn’t make much sense to do so seeing as how the “eee” suffix is a reference to a Zio-supremacist who used to participate on MW.

        || I try to do what’s right and moral, and I believe in equality, not supremacism. ||

        And yet you advocate for, support and defend Jewish supremacism in/and a supremacist “Jewish State”. Interesting.

        || I hope you do, too. ||

        I do, but not “too”, because I don’t support any form of supremacism.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 11:15 am

        “I try to do what’s right and moral, and I believe in equality, not supremacism. I hope you do, too.” Jon s

        “In Israel there’s a rising tide of racism , xenophobia and anti-democratic tendencies, especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews.” “Jon s”

        Well, you sure seem to think you are better than some people. What’s the deal, Jon s? If we don’t listen to you, you will set the racists, anti-democratic, and xenophobic Israelis loose to do their worst?
        You don’t seem interested in doing anything but threatening us with those people, and letting them have their way, why you tell us how much better than them you are!

        The most disgusting kind of hypocrisy possible. And, a moser to boot.

    • jon s
      April 16, 2015, 4:40 pm

      Hophmi,
      Yes, that’s what I was referring to, of course. “Mooser” has written around 20 comments to that one of mine, including calling me a “mother-fucking anti-semite”, which the moderators allowed.
      I’ll leave it to any intelligent and fair-minded reader of this forum to judge as to who writes on-topic and in a civil tone and who resorts to abusive personal insults . In any case I no longer respond to his stuff.

      • tree
        April 16, 2015, 5:47 pm

        Jons,

        Yes, that’s what I was referring to, of course. “Mooser” has written around 20 comments to that one of mine, including calling me a “mother-fucking anti-semite”, which the moderators allowed. –

        I just did a word search through Mooser’s comment archive. “mother-fucking anti-semite” doesn’t exist there. If I word search just for “anti-semite’ I don’t see any comment from him calling you such. Most of his use of the term are humorous riffs on the fallacy that any criticism of Israel or its supporters is anti-semitic. I don’t see any of them directed at you.

        Can you please link to the comment you are talking about?

        And isn’t complaining to Hophmi about Mooser calling you an anti-semite sort of like complaining to Don Rickles about verbal abuse?

        Oops. My apologies, jons. I just found the comment below. It hadn’t yet hit the archives.

        However, his comment in response to you is in a similar vein to his use of the term elsewhere. He’s making a point that such a comment as you made, when made by a non-Jew is often used as an excuse to call that person anti-semitic. He’s lampooning the overuse and mis-use of the term. He uses humor to make some very cogent and on-topic points. I’m sorry you have difficulty seeing that.

      • justicewillprevail
        April 16, 2015, 6:47 pm

        Zionists are the most humourless, pontificating self-regarding bunch you are likely to meet. Which is why there is such a rich vein of humour in Mooser’s shrewd comments on their pretensions, which is only fuelled by their resolute refusal to get the salient point of the barbed and quite astute humour. Since they rarely engage in debate, and offer instead long-winded lectures from their lofty moral perch, humour seems a very appropriate way of subverting their windbagging reiteration of already discredited ‘facts’. Funny that he hits a nerve in them, and that they are unable to respond with any wit or humour themselves. Exposing the glaring contradictions in their arguments, and their self-defeating rhetoric, must be infuriating, i guess.

      • catalan
        April 16, 2015, 7:25 pm

        “Zionists are the most humourless, pontificating self-regarding bunch you are likely to meet”. – justicewillprevail
        Actually it’s all ideologues, especially Neo Marxists. Humor is based on contradiction. If you think you have found a perfectly harmonious system there is nothing left to laugh about. They can be mean though.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2015, 12:11 pm

        “Oops. My apologies, jons.”

        And mine. It was an emotional outburst, and I wrote the coment before I counted “ten” I apologize. And know I know what I might do if somebody said:

        “As to distinctive behavior , I was referring to the many ways in which the Jews were different: speaking a different language (or the local language with a distinct accent); different beliefs , traditions and customs, different holidays, different food, even their sexual behavior was different.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/violence-calling-finkelstein/comment-page-1#comment-761751

        to my face. I’ll remember to not get impatient, when I’m shocked.

        Again, my apology, “Jon s” My apologies to the Moderator, too.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2015, 12:26 pm

        I will not do that again. Ever. But when “jon s” said, in that same thread:

        “In Israel there’s a rising tide of racism , xenophobia and anti-democratic tendencies, especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/faithwashing-leadership-institute#sthash.MFfnIbQN.dpuf

        I sorta lost my grip on my emotions for a second. I’ll stand for a lot, but not attacks on the TU! It was the word “tendencies” which put me over the edge!
        “Tendencies”?

    • tree
      April 16, 2015, 5:35 pm

      The premise was that Anti-Semitism had something to do with what Jews actually did.

      And that was one of the premises of the early Zionist movement. Its part and parcel of the Negation of the Diaspora.

      • jon s
        April 17, 2015, 5:13 pm

        Mooser,
        Apology accepted.

        For myself , I try to live up to the following advice:

        “Guard your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceitfully.

        Shun evil and do good, seek peace and pursue it.”

        -Psalms 34 , 14-15

      • Mooser
        April 18, 2015, 1:06 pm

        “Guard your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceitfully.”

        Really, then why do you fail so abysmally at it? Why do you continuously push the very worst kind of religious hypocrisy on us?

        And why do you slag other Jews to build up your particular sect, or foundation?

        “In Israel there’s a rising tide of racism , xenophobia and anti-democratic tendencies, especially (though not exclusively) among the Orthodox Jews.”

        Don’t threaten us with those people, after all, you pay them to be that way. You go do something about them. When you quote “Psalms” Jon s, you sound like somebody belching after a full meal.

  22. gamal
    April 12, 2015, 9:13 pm

    Jewish “appearance Jewish “behavior”?

    You know something man, its so dispiriting, when I lived in Kano this is how i learned Islam as an infant running up and down the ranks and leaping around the central space, as a teenager in the ranks, I wish I was with those people right now, and then some one says they are going to read the Qur’an (spellchecker wants an apostrophe), to understand Islam, watch it, its cool the last one I was at in ’75 went on for 3 days, they dont even have to try they are rhythm, they never weary, never.

    https://youtu.be/ey7dWFNuhLI

    • Annie Robbins
      April 13, 2015, 12:56 am

      far out

      • gamal
        April 23, 2015, 11:00 pm

        Dear Annie I didnt know there were replies, and the argument seems decided, but,

        I had this friend Nurse in Cheapside near Junction, pretty little woman, she would try, when on a date to be demure, ladylike and then the music play, the drink flow and Nurse couldn’t help her self whinding against every man, blouse open, hips winding, these guys start out liturgical but Africa just busts through drums must beat, they cant help it.. our hearts beat only because of them

        https://youtu.be/qjQwF5Nf5s0

    • jon s
      April 13, 2015, 3:32 am

      Gamal,
      Sure , there was a typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc.(for men); kerchief for women.

      • jon s
        April 13, 2015, 6:52 am

        Gamal, As to distinctive behavior , I was referring to the many ways in which the Jews were different: speaking a different language (or the local language with a distinct accent); different beliefs , traditions and customs, different holidays, different food, even their sexual behavior was different.

      • talknic
        April 13, 2015, 10:50 am

        jon s “Sure , there was a typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc”

        Mmmm.. How then can it be Antisemitic to portray them as such

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 11:18 am

        “Sure , there was a typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc.(for men); kerchief for women.”

        You M—F— antisemite! Good Lord, good lord! You friggin antisemite.

        My God, is there no end to this. I’m sorry, I have to ask: Are other religions plagued with people like him? What the hell did we do to deserve this?

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 11:26 am

        “Sure , there was a typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc.(for men); kerchief for women.”

        “Jon s”, I tried, I really did, but have you ever tried to wear that get-up under a set of motorcycle leathers? It gets mighty bulky, and hot in the summer!

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 11:34 am

        “Sure , there was a typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc.”

        What’s the “etc.”?

        Anyway, “Jon s” it won’t work! Not suitable. Just think about it in typical everyday situations! Okay, you’ve called up for a little phone-sex. As I’m sure you know, most of those conversations start out “And (nod-nod, wink-wink) what are you wearing now, my big sexy mensch?”
        “Oh, just the usual “typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc”
        “Look, iof you are goping to make this really difficult, we charge extra!” Click…..dial tone….

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 11:39 am

        “My God, is there no end to this. I’m sorry, I have to ask: Are other religions plagued with people like him? What the hell did we do to deserve this?”

        My sincere apologies, for that inappropriate and out-of-control outburst. I’d better go before I say something I’ll regret.

        I’ll go press my caftan.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 12:04 pm

        “or the local language with a distinct accent);”

        Think Yiddish speak British! That’s the way to overcome that problem. A little “anglophile orthography” (pace Phil Weiss) is never amiss.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 12:10 pm

        “even their sexual behavior was different.”

        Whew! Very relieved to hear that “Jon s”! So I can take it that all those “Oy, oy, oys from the Jewish couple in the next apartment are the equivalent of the “Oh, oh, ohs” from the Fundies on the other side?
        Good to know, I thought the Jewish couple was having terrible marital problems, but it’s good to know love’s magic spell is everywhere. A couple of those vociferous Oys really take the starch out of my yad but, to each his own.

        EDIT: Oh no, I did it again. What is wrong with me. I’m sorry “Jon s”, I just realized what you were talking about, and why you might mention it and say “even their sexual behavior is different”. I’m sorry, I should have kept my mouth shut. I guess if a person is made different, he will be different. I should have thought of that.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 12:23 pm

        “Good to know, I thought the Jewish couple was having terrible marital problems, “

        Which would be a shame, I know them both pretty well, and they are really nice guys. I hope they make it!

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 12:45 pm

        “even their sexual behavior was different.”

        And as soon as he gets the projector and screen set up, “Jon s” will show us well, exactly how it’s different! Is it anthropology, or pornography? You decide.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 1:06 pm

        Oh well, if “Jon s” won’t tell me how we are, well, “different” sexually, I know who will. I’m going and asking Schumley Boteach! On Jewish sex, he’s a melvin!

        That must be what all that “One weird Jewish Orthodoxy trick to double your testosterone” spam I get is all about.

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 1:25 pm

        “Even their sexual behavior was different”

        C’mon, “jon s” what more can I say, except “ I’m into leather”

      • Bumblebye
        April 13, 2015, 2:37 pm

        Mooser: What’s the “etc”?

        Hats of course! Black or furry.

      • echinococcus
        April 13, 2015, 2:43 pm

        Speak for yourself. Mine wore gallabiahs, spoke oriental languages and none other, and ate shellfish.
        What were we saying about the Zionists being racist?

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 3:08 pm

        “Even their sexual behavior was different” “Jon s”

        Oh no, is this more ‘pinkwashing’?

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 5:06 pm

        “Sure , there was a typical Jewish appearance: beard, skull-cap, ear-locks, long black coat, etc.(for men); kerchief for women.”

        Sure, why shop at expensive stores when you can just raid the costume locker for “Fiddler on the Roof”?

      • Mooser
        April 13, 2015, 7:37 pm

        Wait a minute, when a guy takes a situation produced by the sumptuary laws , and ghettoizing of Jews, and the segregation and poverty of Jews by a larger antisemitic society, and then says this condition, this way of living under persecution, is not just normal, but traditional, nay, even required for Jews, there’s a name for that, but I can’t think of what it is. Is it something about internalizing something-or-other? Maybe it’ll come to me.

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 3:18 pm

        ““Even their sexual behavior was different”

        ROTFLMSJAO! Oh yes, indubitably so! After all, how else to explain the 60-70% out-marriage rate?

    • seafoid
      April 15, 2015, 9:35 am

      And it can only be Sufi.

      So far from the misery and cruelty of the Wahhabbis.

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 11:46 am

        “So far from the misery and cruelty of the Wahhabbis.”

        Believe me, Seafoid, I know! We got sushi the other night, and I put much too much Wahhabbis on my portion. Oy Carumba-lesson it was hot!

  23. eljay
    April 13, 2015, 7:41 am

    Number one, Israel can stop carrying out massacres….

    It can and should also stop:
    – stealing, occupying and colonizing land outside of its (Partition) borders; and
    – oppressing, torturing and killing Palestinians both within and without its (Partition) borders.

    Another thing is: Israel can simply stop calling itself a Jewish state, so Jews wouldn’t have to bear the burden for its criminal actions. And the third thing is, official Jewish organizations in the diaspora, they could cease defending Israel’s criminal actions so it won’t appear as if Israel when it carries out these actions is acting in the name of the Jewish people.

    Zio-supremacist JeffB has asserted that all Jews are responsible for the actions of some Jews. It would seem that Jewish organizations in the diaspora agree with him. The Zio-supremacists here at MW certainly do: Only one of them has bothered to publicly disagree with his anti-Semitic assertion.

  24. yonah fredman
    April 13, 2015, 8:23 pm

    Finkelstein told us on a previous occasion what he thinks about European Jews of 2015: http://normanfinkelstein.com/2015/03/18/norman-finkelstein-ama-highlight/ “In the face of so much ineffable suffering in the world today, I couldn’t care less about the “state of Jews in Europe”. So obviously whatever suggestions that he is making are offered as a form of argument, but not out of any concern with the fate of European or Diaspora Jews. But somehow we are supposed to take his suggestions seriously.

    • RoHa
      April 14, 2015, 7:24 am

      Even if Finkelstein does not have greater concern for European Jews than he does for other people, his suggestions could still have value for those who do.

    • Mooser
      April 14, 2015, 11:21 am

      Yonah, “Jon s” wants you to tell us about your “different sexual behaviors”. Could you please detail, so everybody knows what studs we are?

      Okay, I’ll start: “I wish I could shimmy like my sister, Kate!”

    • Mooser
      April 15, 2015, 2:52 pm

      “but not out of any concern with the fate of European or Diaspora Jews.”

      European and “Diaspora” (ROTFLMSJAOIAPFH!) covers a big, big area Yonah. Why do you think we will suffer a common “fate” that merits concern? For a couple of thousand years we have done well in some places, not so well in others. Like a lot of other people. And that’s probably the way it will go on, unless, of course, Zionism succeeds in uniting people against us. Nuclear bombs and large armies and occupations offend people a whole lot more than people davaning, count on it. No doubt, you will do your best in the process.

  25. lana
    April 14, 2015, 4:00 pm

    Norman F is obsessed with glorifying radical liberalism. That same ideology that bitterly failing Europe as we speak. He is self described self-hating Jew. as such why would anybody take him as legitimate spokesman for Jewish people? France, is country defined and french country…so is any other country on this except for south and north america. I challenge Norman to name one leader on palestinians side that deserves his admiration. He cant because there is nobody there. antisemitism is as old as jewish exodus from ancient israel. it was magnified by Norman beloved Muhammad the prophet of muslims. Utopian ideology of multiculturalism is failigng bitterly in Europe while Norman is reluctant to admit it and keeps on harping this utopia to delegitimize the only tiny little state where Jews can self determine their destiny. Norman knows perfectly well that if Israel is to follow his advice, it will in fact become another arab state. jews are murdered as is in Israel…just use your imagination what will happen to Jews if it will stop being a jewish state? all of you antisemite morons here are bloodthirsty for jewish blood. Norman is your icon? Unless norman moves to israel, he has to shut his hate-filled mouth up. People like Norman throw fuel to the fire to burn antisemitism high and bright. When thousands of rockets were fired to kill Jews in israel, Norman was outrages at Israel for using iron dome to save lives. when tunnels dogged into israel from Gaza were destroyed by israel, Norman again complained against it. Anything that israel does to save lifes of people in israel Norman is against. Even when jews celebrate Hanukkah, he comes up with insults and ridicule. he is against BDS….but not because he has anything good to say about jewish nation. He is against because his favorite self-hating anarchist Noam chomsky sais it too. And because if israel will exist no more, Norman will have nothing else to hate on. Norman loves iranian ayatollahs and Turkey. He loves hezbollah and Hamas. anybody aiming to destroy israel earns Norman applaud.

    • just
      April 14, 2015, 5:21 pm

      Quite the entrance~ a full- fledged rant, full of hate and falsehoods.

      • eljay
        April 14, 2015, 6:17 pm

        || just: Quite the entrance … ||

        A very Zio-supremacist entrance: All victimhood all the time, without a word about Israel’s…
        – 60+ years, on-going and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction, torture and murder;
        – refusal to honour its obligations under international law;
        – refusal to accept responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes; and
        – refusal to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

      • Mooser
        April 14, 2015, 10:05 pm

        “Quite the entrance~”

        I think it’s what’s called “Two glasses of wine, and a laptop”. A dangerous combination in some hands.

    • Mooser
      April 14, 2015, 9:43 pm

      “Lana” we are having some problems here, and I think you are just the person to settle the argument. Can you please tell us what the proper Jewish attire is, and what is “different” about “Jewish sexual behavior”?

      How the hell I am supposed to know what to wear, and how to act on a date? The Hartman Institute would like to know, too.

      “all of you antisemite morons here are bloodthirsty for jewish blood.”

      Gosh, Lana, you’ve hit on my pet peeve! Why are there so many backstabbers, mosers turncoats and kapos in Judaism? Why are we so disloyal to ourselves? Where’s the TRIBAL UNITY?
      Well, you know what, Lana? I’m not going to worry about all those traitors. When we kick them out, it’ll just mean more acreage and a bigger share for you and me!

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 2:41 pm

        “all of you antisemite morons here are bloodthirsty for jewish blood.”

        Lana, you open up many interesting lines of inquiry, things I’ve wondered about for some time.
        Are there Kosher vampires?

      • yonah fredman
        April 16, 2015, 11:12 am

        In Roman Polanski’s “Fearless Vampire Killers” of ’67, there is a Jewish vampire. when someone tries to protect against his advances with the help of a crucifix, he says, “boy, have you got the wrong vampire.”

    • Mooser
      April 14, 2015, 9:55 pm

      “Even when jews celebrate Hanukkah, he comes up with insults and ridicule.”

      Lana, you have redeemed me! I thought I was an anti-Zionist, since I was a kid in Hebrew School, but you have pierced me to the pith and I I see where my heart really is!
      Norman, leave Hannukah aloooooone! And “8 for 8 forever”
      I know Norman’s type, probably gives his kids presents on the first night, and shuts up like a vault for the next seven.
      My motto from now on is “Greater Israel, and More and Better Hannukah Presents!”

      • seafoid
        April 15, 2015, 9:40 am

        I thought Hannukah was invented by Hasbro in 1962

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 11:49 am

        “I thought Hannukah was invented by Hasbro in 1962”

        You know, I never got any Hasbro toys when I was a kid. Of course, I had two sisters, so my parents wouldn’t buy them.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 15, 2015, 12:56 am

      He is self described self-hating Jew.

      oh please.

      as such why would anybody take him as legitimate spokesman for Jewish people?

      he’s not a “spokesperson for jewish people.” where did you ever come up with this idea. he’s a person, a scholar. that’s who he is. his voice resonates far and wide.

      I challenge Norman to name one leader on palestinians side that deserves his admiration.

      why limit it to leaders? i am on palestine’s side and i admire him immensely.

    • Mooser
      April 15, 2015, 1:56 am

      “just use your imagination what will happen to Jews if it will stop being a jewish state?”

      I know Lana, that frightens me to death. If Israel stops being a “Jewish state” the Jews in Israel will be in precisely the same position as the Jews in the United States!. And we know what happened to them, with no protection from Arabs, Germans, Russians, Italians, French people and their language, Poles, or anybody else who came here! Stupid American government doesn’t even recognize us. God forbid it should happen to the Israelis! Look at us, Israelis, do you want to end up like this? Take warning by our fate! Reduced to living in pockets of affluence.

      • Walid
        April 15, 2015, 3:37 am

        “Take warning by our fate! Reduced to living in pockets of affluence. ” (Mooser)

        This could give the erroneous impression that most Jews in the US are living in affluence.

      • seafoid
        April 15, 2015, 9:42 am

        If it stops being a Jewish state the Jewish mitzvah fairy dust will cease to work and those carry out mitzvoth will become small minded cruel hypocrites.

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 11:36 am

        “This could give the erroneous impression that most Jews in the US are living in affluence.”

        I’m sorry Walid, I mispelled. I meant ” pockets of effluence”. My damn septic tank is overflowing again!
        Do you think Jewish plumbers are as bad as Jewish used-car and tire dealers?

      • Walid
        April 15, 2015, 11:48 am

        “I meant ” pockets of effluence”. My damn septic tank is overflowing again! – (Mooser}

        And you’re fast too. Yes, about Jewish plumbers. Who’s ever heard of a Jewish plumber?

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 12:00 pm

        “Who ever heard of a Jewish plumber?”

        Huh?” First of all, see here, at 0: 46 .

        Secondly, Walid, we had a plumber over here at Moosehall the other week, he replaced a shower head and faucet and put in a water heater, and left with a check for $5000. And he was a brazin’ fellow! You might want to revise your views. I might mention he was able to part our water supply from the municipal water system to do the work by simply yelling “Outta the way! The Egyptians are after me!” as he came through the door. Never had to touch the valve!

      • tree
        April 15, 2015, 1:56 pm

        One of the best plumbers I know is Jewish. Ezra Nawi.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Nawi

        I don’t usually have conversations with plumbers about their religion so I have no idea if I know any other Jewish plumbers. Frankly I don’t know many plumbers at all, and that’s a good thing since it means I haven’t had many plumbing issues.

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 2:27 pm

        “Who’s ever heard of a Jewish plumber?”

        Walid, there are Jewish surfers. Some of the coolest surfers, too.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/you-say-jucheck-i-say-chkjew-lets-call-the-whole-thing-off

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 2:31 pm

        And the plumber’s helper wore a Carhartt of many colors, too!

      • Mooser
        April 15, 2015, 4:15 pm

        But Walid, I’m sorry I even brought it up, who wants to think about plumbing now [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp41bjlLS4U&w=560&h=315%5D

        Now is the time to believe in spring. My favorite Legrand song. Always makes my lachrymal plumbing spring a leak, but I love it.

      • Walid
        April 15, 2015, 6:21 pm

        Ezra Nawi is a very colourful plumber, thanks. Never met a Jewish plumber, but I’ve had a few very good Jewish tailors.

        Now Mooser is really going to get pushy about selling me that bridge.

        Kidding aside, there are over 500,000 Jews living in poverty in NYC.

      • RoHa
        April 15, 2015, 7:06 pm

        Mooser, from JeffB’s comments on another thread, I got the impression that Jewish plumbing was somehow … different .

        Could this be connected with the peculiarities of Jewish sex ?

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2015, 11:34 am

        “Could this be connected with the peculiarities of Jewish sex ?”

        Will you please stop? Or can I bill you for all the couch time? I just about had my anxieties conquered, and you bring it up again.

        That “cruddy, cruddy couch!”. Well, Goodbye Columbus, I’m off to the headshrinker. Or maybe I’ve got a ‘social disease’?

    • oldgeezer
      April 15, 2015, 2:07 am

      @lana

      Need a hug? Spleen vented?

      Just for the record I don’t consider Norman an icon. He has some good things to say, and like all of us, some of the things he says are out to lunch.

      Need a hug? Yeah that’s twice but you seem needy

      • seafoid
        April 15, 2015, 9:51 am

        I think he’s very impressive, actually. His books are reference material.

  26. Shmuel
    April 15, 2015, 4:51 pm

    As someone who lives in one of those Europe places everybody is talking about, most of the hostility I have encountered against Jews is directly related to pro-Israel (and anti-Palestinian) positions taken and energetically promoted by Jewish institutions and elected officials in the city/country (often in tandem with resident Israeli diplomats and legations). In other words, it is not so much the fact that Netanyahu or the State of Israel claims to represent Jews everywhere (although that is undoubtedly a component), but that local Jewish communities speak and act as if that were actually true. The resulting adversarial situations only serve to reinforce pre-existing prejudice and foster further alienation and ill will. If our Jewish leaders and/or their Israeli allies were actually interested in combating anti-Semitism, this is exactly the kind of thing they would try to avoid rather than encourage.

    • Walid
      April 15, 2015, 6:03 pm

      Greetings, Shmuel.

    • eljay
      April 15, 2015, 6:16 pm

      || Shmuel @ April 15, 2015, 4:51 pm ||

      Thanks for your post…and for posting once again. :-)

  27. yonah fredman
    April 16, 2015, 11:09 am

    hey Shmuel. i’d wish you a happy yom hashoah, but some would take it the wrong way.

    i think the dynamics of france are decidedly different than the dynamics in Italy. I don’t have the figures for accurate demographics right off, but i’m quite sure that france’s problem of assimilating a large north african muslim population dwarfs the issue in italy. as far as violence, there’s been more violence in the u.s. with the attack on the jewish community center in kansas two years ago than there’s been in italy. (true paris is probably closer to rome than kansas is to brooklyn.)

    jews in the diaspora in the main are going to be supporters of Israel no matter naftali bennett and avigdor lieberman etc. if one cannot separate antizionism from attacks on Jews in Europe then we cannot expect the change to come from policy statement by Israel or by the mainstream jewish organizations. there might be some ideal that can envision a different world in this respect, but it won’t take place anytime soon under current conditions.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 16, 2015, 11:48 am

      and attacks on palestinians? where does that fit into your scenario? if israel cannot stop attacks on palestinians then no policy statement by israel or by the mainstream jewish organizations in support of israel will improve the situation.

    • Shmuel
      April 16, 2015, 12:19 pm

      Hi Yonah.

      Actual violence and fear of violence don’t seem to be all that related, and the distance between Paris and Rome would appear to depend on one’s perspective. In most of the actual violence between Jews and Palestinians/Palestinian solidarity in these parts in recent years, it’s the Palestinians/solidarity who have been on the receiving end, but you wouldn’t know it to hear some people.

      Some “diaspora” Jews are supporters of Israel and some aren’t. Some are supporters of Bennett and Lieberman and some aren’t. I’m talking about an atmosphere conducive to combating anti-Semitism rather than fostering it. Confusing anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

      • hophmi
        April 16, 2015, 12:42 pm

        Can you substantiate that claim, Shmuel?

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2015, 1:03 pm

        Can you substantiate that claim, Shmuel?

        Yes.

      • hophmi
        April 16, 2015, 2:03 pm

        OK. I’m all ears. Substantiate the claim that “most” of the violence between “Jews” and “Palestianian/Palestinian solidarity” activists has been committed by the “Jews.” Hard data, please, and relative to size of respective said groups. No anecdotes.

      • eljay
        April 16, 2015, 2:30 pm

        || hophmi: OK. I’m all ears. Substantiate the claim that “most” of the violence between “Jews” and “Palestianian/Palestinian solidarity” activists has been committed by the “Jews.” Hard data, please, and relative to size of respective said groups. No anecdotes. ||

        I know that Zio-supremacists aren’t big on manners, but would it really kill you to drop the commandant schtick, display a little courtesy to Shmuel – who is consistently a gentleman – and say “please”?

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2015, 2:49 pm

        Substantiate the claim that “most” of the violence between “Jews” and “Palestianian/Palestinian solidarity” activists has been committed by the “Jews.”

        The words “committed by the Jews” are yours (as are the scare quotes around “Jews”), not mine.

        Hard data, please, and relative to size of respective said groups. No anecdotes.

        I’ll leave the legwork and the statistical analysis to you. I’ve lived in this city for 12 years and am pretty aware of what goes on both in the Jewish community and in the Palestinian/solidarity community. I can think of at least 5 physical attacks by Jews against Palestinians, activists for Palestinian rights or those perceived as such, in the past 4-5 years (for which I can provide links in Italian, if you are interested). There have been no analogous attacks against Jews by Palestinians or activists for Palestinian rights.

        There is a small group of pretty violent right-wing, pro-Israel Jewish thugs in this city that plays turf wars, “punishes” pro-Palestinian demonstrators, and even tries to enforce “consensus” on Israel within the Jewish community (I have a friend with the bruises to prove it). The chief rabbi has tried (on one occasion) to deal with it, but only where internal violence was concerned. There is no Palestinian or pro-Palestinian counterpart. I’m sorry if that’s hard for you to accept. Feel free to do all of analysis you like of the “hard data … relative to size of respective said groups”.

      • just
        April 16, 2015, 2:55 pm

        Well said, Shmuel.

      • justicewillprevail
        April 16, 2015, 3:07 pm

        Ha ha, that’s rich, coming from Hophmi, the expert in making evidence-free hysterical claims about this site and its host. The myriad of eye-witness accounts, the photographic and journalistic evidence available to anyone, the jails full of people incarcerated without trial, the medical records, the balance of forces – all of them will be dismissed by the high and mighty Hoppy who wants what he calculates you can’t provide, since the Israeli occupation is not going to release the statistics he demands, with a stamp of his little foot. If only he could provide any evidence for his own claims then he might have a case, but they are based on the usual myths, lies and fake history.

      • eljay
        April 16, 2015, 3:08 pm

        || eljay: … would it really kill you to drop the commandant schtick … and say “please”? ||

        I just noticed that there was a “please” in hophmi’s otherwise imperious-sounding post:

        OK. I’m all ears. Substantiate the claim that “most” of the violence between “Jews” and “Palestianian/Palestinian solidarity” activists has been committed by the “Jews.” Hard data, please, and relative to size of respective said groups. No anecdotes.

        My bad.

      • just
        April 16, 2015, 3:53 pm

        Easily missed because it was part of his imperious demand.

      • Mooser
        April 16, 2015, 5:36 pm

        I add my brayings or rather, moo-ings to the general tumult of happy salutations, Shmuel. Very nice to see a comment with that nym atop it!

        But be careful, Shmuel, I hear the moderating is now governed by a gentleman’s agreement.

      • Mooser
        April 16, 2015, 5:46 pm

        “The words “committed by the Jews” are yours (as are the scare quotes around “Jews”), not mine.” quote from a comment by Shmuel

        I don’t know why I am confining my warning to Shmuel, I think it must apply to us all. This is Hophmi, (Faithwashing” thread) commenting two days ago to Annie(!) on his e-mail communications with Phil Weiss:

        “Phil agrees with me, by the way, that I put up with a lot of nonsense here; I’ve written him a number of times, and he’s always been a gentleman. I think he’s repulsed by a good deal of the commentary here.. “Hophmi” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/04/faithwashing-leadership-institute/comment- page-1#comment-761356

        I wouldn’t want anybody to get hurt because they didn’t know this. Only fair to warn people.

      • Walid
        April 16, 2015, 8:03 pm

        “There is a small group of pretty violent right-wing, pro-Israel Jewish thugs in this city that plays turf wars, “punishes” pro-Palestinian demonstrators, and even tries to enforce “consensus” on Israel within the Jewish community…” (Shmuel)

        Not in Italy and not recently, but in TA in 1982 in the wake of Sabra and Shatila at the massive Peace Now rally when right wing activist Yona Avrushmi tossed a hand grenade into the crowd killing a prominent Peace Now activist Emile Grunzweig and injuring several others. Avrushumi was released in 2011.

      • yonah fredman
        April 17, 2015, 7:31 pm

        Shmuel- It always adds to have more information and your input regarding those who marched in support of Palestinians who suffered violence is useful knowledge. But the topic discussed by Norman Finkelstein was the question of the violence suffered by the Jewish community.

        In the aftermath of the Charlie Hebdo killings (or in the latter phases of the killing before the killers were apprehended) a kosher market was attacked and four Jews were killed there. These were not people who were demonstrating their political preferences (something that should be assured by the police in a society that believes in free speech) but they were killed because they were Jews. In Jeffrey Goldberg’s article re: should jews leave europe, he includes the fact that he was hanging out (interviewing) Alain Finkielkraut at the time that the news of the killings (or the hostage taking) had occurred at the kosher market and Finkielkraut commented, “But of course”. But of course at the time of murdering cartoonists for their anti Islamic cartoons, but of course, some supporters of that frame of mind would jump on the bandwagon to express their alienation from society by going into a kosher store and shooting up some Jews.

        This is the frame of mind on one side of Finkielkraut on one side and Finkelstein on the other side.

        I don’t take Finkelstein’s comments seriously on this issue. Israel is not going to announce tomorrow that it is not a Jewish state. In fact, its policies of immigration are explicitly oriented towards its Jewish status and is Finkelstein expressing a desire to see Israel change its immigration policies? Of course not. He is merely speaking his mind and not proposing anything that anyone is really going to consider.

        Most Jews support Israel at least to the extent of rejecting BDS. Are they all worthy targets? Certainly it would be useful for those Jews (in Europe, it’s not really an issue in the states yet) who oppose BDS to wear a “Not in my name” symbol, so if they ever go into a kosher market or take their kids to a Jewish school or attend a Jewish temple, the murderers will know to avoid killing them. but of course I jest. it is not serious. the murderers are out to kill Jews and if they kill a BDS Jew, it won’t bother them so much.

        yes, it would be ideal to separate between Jew haters and haters of Zionism. But there is no practical means of doing so at this time.

      • MRW
        April 17, 2015, 9:47 pm

        Good for you, Shmuel.

      • Sibiriak
        April 18, 2015, 3:55 am

        yonah fredman: ” it would be ideal to separate between Jew haters and haters of Zionism. But there is no practical means of doing so at this time.”

        ——————-

        If you cannot distinguish hating *individual human beings* (simply for their membership in a group) from hating a pernicious *ideology*, then you are either intellectually feeble or intellectually dishonest.

      • Shmuel
        April 18, 2015, 4:41 am

        Yonah,

        My remark about violence against Palestinians/solidarity/perceived-solidarity (some of the people attacked were not actually expressing political opinions at the time) was not the focus of my comment. It got a little more attention than the rest of what I had said, because it seems to have bugged Hophmi. Nor is it uncommon for people to be attacked in Italy for their ethnic/linguistic/religious identity — although the victims are far more likely to be Roma, black or Muslim than Jews.

        My point about anti–Semitism (slightly different from Finkelstein’s) is that the key to fighting it is building bridges — the opposite of which necessarily increases alienation, prejudice and animosity. Since Israel/Palestine is the greatest single source of tension between Jews and non-Jews today, a constructive approach would be to put some daylight between European Jews and Israel.

        Does the Great Synagogue really need to have a giant photo of Ron Arad on its gate? Did a rally in support of Israel during “Pillar of Defence” really need to be held in the synagogue sanctuary (with 2 Israeli ambassadors in attendance and mocking, anti-Palestinian placards in the pews)? Did the Jewish community of Turin really need to demand the closure of an UNRWA photo exhibit on Palestinian refugees (with no overt political messages)? Does the Jewish community of Rome really need to join the Israeli embassy in pressing for the cancellation of every academic conference on Palestine at local universities?

        I’m not talking about not supporting Israel, if that is what some Jews and their elected representatives believe, nor am I talking about “blaming the victim”. What I am talking about is patiently and constantly fighting a central element of animosity against Jews, and trying to foster a climate of tolerance and understanding. Israel’s interests (as perceived by Israel’s elected leaders) may require this kind of adversariality and zero-sum strategy, but that is definitely not what European Jews or European societies as a whole need. We need to build alliances and defuse tensions, not fight Israel’s wars by proxy.

        There is still a lot of good will toward Jews and Judaism on the left here — essential to combating real anti-Semitism when it arises — and Italian Muslims are neither monolithic (that should go without saying) or particularly extremist. I have seen this good will undermined by the unwise and unkind behaviour of Jewish leaders, often by confusing criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism and using the stigma of anti-Semitism as a stick with which to beat Israel’s legitimate critics.

        In the 90s, there were wonderful alliances between Jews and Muslims in France to combat prejudice and racism of all kinds. Where have these alliances gone? It would be foolish and unfair to lay all the blame on CRIF, but it would be equally foolish to say they bear no responsibility whatsoever.

      • MRW
        April 19, 2015, 6:02 am

        My point about anti–Semitism (slightly different from Finkelstein’s) is that the key to fighting it is building bridges — the opposite of which necessarily increases alienation, prejudice and animosity. . . . What I am talking about is patiently and constantly fighting a central element of animosity against Jews, and trying to foster a climate of tolerance and understanding.

        Exactly.

      • yonah fredman
        April 19, 2015, 4:17 pm

        Sibiriak- It is indeed easy to differentiate between anti Semitic rhetoric and anti Zionist rhetoric. But if someone (in this case an Islamic fundamentalist murderous fanatic) goes into a Jewish kosher market and kills Jews and some people say, “this is blowback for Gaza”, in essence they are saying, an antiSemitic act cannot be isolated from an antiZionist context. That’s what I was saying. If the rhetoric of Paris’s suburban Islamic slums interweaves anti Zionism and anti Semitism, we can bring a microscope and parse each comment for its comment. But when suggestions of “why doesn’t Israel stop calling itself a Jewish state?” are offered tongue in cheek, and are taken seriously, then it becomes obvious that the attempt to differentiate between anti Zionism and anti Semitism in particular in western Europe is a difficult task.

    • Walid
      April 17, 2015, 11:09 pm

      “hey Shmuel. i’d wish you a happy yom hashoah, but some would take it the wrong way.” (Yonah)

      A “happy” yom hashoa? Isn’t that like wishing a Christian a “happy” Good Friday? You never cease to amaze, Yonah.

      • just
        April 17, 2015, 11:29 pm

        Exactly what I thought when I read that Walid.

        I wonder if that’s what he meant to provoke. What’s ‘happy’ about it?

      • yonah fredman
        April 18, 2015, 4:49 pm

        Walid, I don’t think Shmuel was offended. I did not mean to offend him and I don’t think he was offended. It’s kind of like two blacks (in America) calling each other , Hey Nigger. kind of like that. something that white people can’t get away with, but african americans can and do.

        but it could be that I did offend Shmuel, who knows. it was my way of saying hello to a fellow Jew.

        I had a friend in Jerusalem who wished me a happy yom hashoah once and i did not take offense and it was offered in the same vein, with a self deprecating smile.

      • Shmuel
        April 20, 2015, 4:17 am

        Walid, Yonah,

        I wasn’t offended by the greeting, but am very offended by the day, by its political and ideological exploitation of Holocaust memory (for ends I consider immoral and entirely at odds with the experience and lessons of the Holocaust itself), and by its redemptive, teleological narrative of genocide.

      • Walid
        April 20, 2015, 7:03 am

        It’s shameful what the Zionists have done to the memory of the Holocaust and being so overdone that it will eventually backfire. They haven’t realized that it’s time to stop milking it.

  28. catalan
    April 16, 2015, 2:15 pm

    Keith,
    I also have not accused anyone of antisemitism, in fact till now I have not used that word on that forum. I don’t know how you feel about Jews. Indeed, if you don’t like Jews, I have no problem with that. I don’t think I am a victim of anything, not more than anyone else. I think you are confusing with me other people.
    Where we disagree is the source of Jewish success in the United States. You think it results from bias and favoritism, I think it results from education and hard work. Until you show me examples of this alleged favoritism, you have shown yourself to be making baseless accusations. It’s just a mystery to me how Jews go about helping other Jews. Explain the logistics of this help, show examples, provide statistics of Jews being selected over non-Jews for positions. If you can’t do that you cannot convince anyone.

    • Mooser
      April 16, 2015, 6:00 pm

      “Where we disagree is the source of Jewish success in the United States.you think it results from bias and favoritism, I think it results from education and hard work.”

      You know, “catalan”, I used to think Jewish success was due to bias and favoritism, but I gotta tell you, all your complaints about not getting into the mainstream of Jewish success is starting to persuade me that maybe it is a meritocracy.

      • catalan
        April 16, 2015, 6:28 pm

        “You know, “catalan”, I used to think Jewish success was due to bias and favoritism” – Mooser
        So what is the code? Why not share it with a dummy brother? What should I say next time there is a Jew interviewing me for a job? Come on, be a dear, don’t keep it to yourself. Share a trifle.

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2015, 11:43 am

        “What should I say next time there is a Jew interviewing me for a job?”

        “catalan” okay, I’ll tell you what to do. Just make good and sure your resume contains (prominently) a link to your Mondo archive. You’ll be in like Fred Flynnstein! Board-room bound! Succeeding in business, without really trying.

      • MRW
        April 19, 2015, 6:05 am

        So what is the code? Why not share it with a dummy brother?

        Go to Shul.

    • bintbiba
      April 16, 2015, 6:15 pm

      Shmuel,

      May I add my little voice of salutation and gladness to your return in our midst!
      You have been sorely missed…… some people should start minding their manners around here.

      (Thanks to eljay ….for her/his comment in that respect)!

      • Shmuel
        April 16, 2015, 6:41 pm

        Thank you very much, bintbiba and everyone else.

      • eljay
        April 16, 2015, 8:36 pm

        || bintbiba: … (Thanks to eljay ….for her/his comment in that respect)! ||

        His. :-)

      • Mooser
        April 17, 2015, 12:19 pm

        “Catalan- “You think it results from bias and favoritism, I think it results from education and hard work.”

        I’m sure, very sure, from what I’ve seen, that some of it most certainly does result from education and hard work.

        Now, “catalan” tell me what education and hard work qualifies one for a job (often well-paid!) as a “Jewish leader”?

    • Keith
      April 16, 2015, 11:29 pm

      CATALAN- “I also have not accused anyone of antisemitism….”

      I stand corrected and I apologize. You are the first Zionist to take umbrage at my commenting on Jewish success and power without calling me an anti-Semite. Hophmi does it routinely.

      Catalan- “You think it results from bias and favoritism, I think it results from education and hard work.”

      We have already covered this. The extent of Jewish elite over-representation in positions of power and influence is so extreme that meritocracy seems obviously inadequate. Groups which comprise the elite virtually always claim meritocracy as the reason for their good fortune, your claim is nothing new nor anymore valid than that of the WASPs who said the same thing. It also forms the core of white racism and the white man’s burden. I see also that you have changed your tune (nothing new there!) about “natural difference(s) of skill” being a significant factor, now only education and hard work being the difference. And I never said nor implied that Jewish success resulted only or even primarily from bias and favoritism, but that these are significant factors which provide an added push for those who seek power. Furthermore, the implication of “meritocracy” as the primary causative factor implies Gentile inferiority. Apparently, you feel that among the 98% of the population, most are uneducated or slothful. And yes, it might be interesting to see an analysis of Jewish success versus comparably educated Gentiles, however, I am in no position to perform this analysis. Furthermore, I predict that it will be a cold day in Hell before any unbiased scholarly study is performed. The very possibility of unfavorable results would cause Abe Foxman and the whole Zionist juggernaut to scream anti-Semitism to the high heavens. Hophmi does it now for one measly paragraph. This is an interesting topic but not that interesting and we have already talked it to death. Mondoweiss concerns the war for ideas in the Middle East, hence, this will be my last comment on this thread.

  29. jon s
    April 16, 2015, 3:35 pm

    Shmuel,
    I’ll take your word for it regarding the situation in Rome.
    However, in other cities in Western Europe, innocent Jews have actually been killed . Not “bruised” in turf wars, but murdered. Toulouse, Brussels, Paris, Copenhagen.

    After writing the last line , I suddenly remembered that there had been an attack in Rome, back in 1982, when a 2 year old child was murdered:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Great_Synagogue_of_Rome_attack

    • eljay
      April 16, 2015, 3:43 pm

      || jon s: However, in other cities in Western Europe, innocent Jews have actually been killed . … ||

      It could just be a rumour, but I’ve heard tell that in Rome and other cities in Western Europe, innocent non-Jews have actually been killed, too.

      The solution to acts of injustice and immorality is justice, accountability and equality, universally and consistently applied. The solution is not the creation of one or more supremacist states.

      • Mooser
        April 16, 2015, 6:14 pm

        “The solution to acts of injustice and immorality is justice, accountability and equality, universally and consistently applied.”

        Which is both the ideal and the practical way to work towards that solution, and the only way to think about it.

        But even so, that would still leave a vast amount of injustice, unaccountability, inequality and even murderousness in the hands of individuals perhaps individuals either damaged, ill, or evil, or some combination of those afflictions.

        So the real question is not ‘do Jews get murdered?’. Of course they do. That way lies insanity. The rational question is (unless you want to drive yourself nuts, and end up like… whoops, better stop there):
        Do Jews get murdered more often than anybody else.
        Yes but they were murdered for being Jews!! Just like people get murdered for being, well, any number of things.

      • bintbiba
        April 17, 2015, 3:40 am

        Thanks, eljay :))

    • Shmuel
      April 16, 2015, 3:52 pm

      Hi Jon,

      My references were to local and relatively recent events, not to the murders in France or Belgium or to the murder of Stefano Gaj Taché (33 years ago).

      No Palestinians or activists have been murdered in the events I described, but one young man from Gaza (taking part in a candlelight vigil for Palestinian prisoners) was put in hospital with serious injuries that have caused him years of suffering. It’s not a contest. Take my remarks for whatever they’re worth.

      • Mooser
        April 16, 2015, 6:03 pm

        “Take my remarks for whatever they’re worth.”

        Well, for me (and I suspect I’m not alone) sometimes worth their weight in Au.

    • oldgeezer
      April 16, 2015, 4:11 pm

      Murder is a despicable crime. It has occurred in peoples of all faiths and ethnicities for as long as humankind has existed. It needs to be called out whenever it occurs.

      What relevance a 33 year old murder has to current events remains to be seen. If only you showed a tiny fraction of the same concern for the violence and murders being perpetrated by the goi and settlers on other peoples.

      Your victimhood is pathetic.

      • Mooser
        April 18, 2015, 12:38 pm

        “Your victimhood is pathetic.”

        “Oldgeezer”, sometimes I look at the stuff the ilk write, and I ask myself : “Do they even know any real people?” Are they completely unaware of how people will react to their attitudes?

  30. Boomer
    April 17, 2015, 7:46 am

    He states some facts and ideas clearly and with courage, while seeming inconsistent and self-serving on other points. But he does rightly point out that those who refer to Israel as “the Zionist Entity” rather than as the “Jewish State” are doing Jews a favor.

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