Is BDS practicing a double standard with respect to Arab countries?

Middle East
on 166 Comments

Richard Cohen has a piece up at the Washington Post titled, “The ugly effort to boycott Israel,” accusing those leading the boycott movement of anti-semitism because they have a double standard, ignoring human rights abuses in Egypt, including genital mutilation.

Israel somehow produces intemperate snits in otherwise gentle people.

Cohen’s argument recalls the most exciting exchange between Peter Beinart and Yousef Munayyer at last week’s debate at the New America Foundation in New York. Beinart said BDS is guilty of a double standard; Munayyer defended the campaign. Here we go:

Beinart:

I’m not in general a fan of double standards arguments. And I have made that point at length and in Jewish audiences where it’s not very popular. But I do have to say, there is a certain level of double standard at which things become absurd. If you’re talking about boycotting Israeli behavior in the West Bank and Gaza, because of the fundamental oppression that exists there, but not boycott anything else in the Arab Middle East, I’m with you. But if you say you’re gong to boycott Israel inside the Green Line, where Palestinians have the right to vote, are represented in the Knesset, live under the same legal system, are represented on the Supreme Court, but you but you have no problem with a whole series of states where everyone has far fewer rights than that, that seems to me genuinely problematic.

Munayyer:

We hear this all the time, oh Palestinian citizens are in the Knesset, and Palestinian judges and all that. Well I’ll have you know that during the time of Jim Crow, there were African American members of Congress. And there were also African American judges.

The reality is you can point to anecdotes within Israel, but that doesn’t mean there’s no systematic discrimination.

And the reality is there is a double standard, but that double standard also exists for Israel. In many situations around the world where you have human rights abuses, you have an international state system actually attempting to do something about that to a far greater extent than they’re attempting to do something when it comes to Israel. In many other cases, when you have human rights abusers, you have sanctions slapped on those regimes. You don’t have that in Israel.

The reason BDS is stepping up to the plate as a civil society movement to play that role is precisely because the state system has failed to do that. Instead, the state system at large, led of course by the United States through its influence over the United Nations has only acted as a cover for Israel’s actions in the occupied territories, has prevented any further action by the international community at the UN Security Council, and continues to subsidize this to the single largest foreign military financing expense in the Untied States’s budget.

So if we want to talk about double standards, let’s talk about those double standards. BDS exists to fill a void that the state system has created because of its inability to do what needs to be done when it comes to pressuring Israel.

Beinart:

There are certainly countries where there is some international effort at addressing human rights abuses. But there is absolutely no such effort going on in Saudi Arabia or any of the Gulf States for instance. To suggest that only in Israel is the state  system turning a blind eye– I mean, many, many countries with I would argue even more profound human rights abuses, certainly more profound human rights abuses than Israel inside the Green Line– there is absolutely no pressure at all, from the United States nor from the international community. While what you’re saying may be true in certain cases, it’s not true in many many other cases.

Munayyer:

Peter, if you want to start a boycott Saudi Arabia movement, I’m happy to sign up as your first member. I have plenty of problems with the Saudi regime, but the Saudi regime isn’t the one that doesn’t permit  me to live in the town where I was born…

This is a personal experience for many Palestinians. It’s not just about what’s right and what’s wrong. It’s about how do we gain justice for ourselves and dignity for ourselves. So let’s start that movement. I’m happy to join. By the way, plenty of people within the BDS movement are very, very critical of these regimes and are active in a variety of different efforts for human rights across a number of different borders. It’s not as you describe.

Beinart:

If you have the right to see this from the prism of your experience, Jews also have the right to see it from the prism of their experience. You’re talking about boycotting inside the Green Line. But I’ve never seen a big protest about what’s happening in Saudi Arabia, and Jews have the right to be concerned about that, seeing it though their prism of their experience of victimization by a world that has been very, very historically often not interested in Jewish welfare and in fact treated Jews by a different standard.

You see it from your experience, Jews will also naturally see it through the prism of our own experience.

About Philip Weiss

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166 Responses

  1. HarryLaw
    June 9, 2015, 1:37 pm

    Beinart does not want Israel within the green line boycotted, why not, it has been, and still is the policy of all Israeli Governments since 1967 to settle Occupied Palestinian Territory, contrary to International law. The settlers themselves bear some culpability, to varying degrees. But the Israeli state have been encouraging with financial inducements, tax breaks, supplying infrastructure etc for the settlements, so the Israeli state is to blame. Totally.

    • Krauss
      June 9, 2015, 2:27 pm

      Beinart’s argument is basically the same we’ve heard for ages.

      Yes, but our history. He’s too sophisticated to pull the Shoah card right off the bat but he’s basically doing a similar, but more complicated, argument here.

      Ultimately, we must bow to “sensitivities” because bad stuff happened in the past and as such we must “understand” the revulsion that Zionists like himself feel when Jewish apartheid is boycotted.

      No Peter, we are disgusted with your apologetics for an Apartheid system. You may be a much more sophisticated apologist than the troglodytes that the regime in Jerusalem trots out but there’s only so much finesse and élan can accomplish papering over a brutishly racist ideology.

      This is a morally corrupt argument and it will age really fucking badly. Oh, and don’t think we’ve forgotten the 2011 interview with Cpl. Goldberg. We know who you really are deep down.

  2. hophmi
    June 9, 2015, 2:01 pm

    Beinart destroys Munayyer here, and exposes the hypocrisy of the BDS movement, which seeks Israel’s destruction as a Jewish state.

    In fact, I don’t believe Munayyer; there isn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that the BDS movement would sign on to a boycott of Arab Muslim ethnocratic dictatorships, because they would condemn such an effort as Islamophobic (particularly if someone like Beinart started it), or because they receive funding from some of these states.

    • Krauss
      June 9, 2015, 2:25 pm

      hahahahaha

    • Kris
      June 9, 2015, 2:27 pm

      @hophmi: ” Israel’s destruction as a Jewish state.”

      It has been hard for me to wrap my mind around this one. You really are saying that “Jewish state” doesn’t mean a state that is organized and run on “Jewish” religious principles, it means a state where the majority of the population must be “Jewish.”

      Could you define what “Jewish” means, exactly? Should it be based on DNA tests?

      • mohandeer
        June 10, 2015, 8:56 am

        Kris. Golda Meirson was Jewish but admitted that she was a socialist and therefore did not believe in God. So is being Jewish a person practising Judaism or someone who merely identifies with Jewish by blood? If that is the case, then Jews can have no claim to the lands because God gave it to them if they don’t actually believe in God. That is their main excuse for stealing land from anywhere and everywhere. It’s called expansionism, and is familiar to the US and Nazis of WW2 – who promoted the idea of blonde hair and blue eyes as the superior race.
        Nazis based their expansionism on colouring, not DNA, religion or geographic existence. According to history, only two tribes qualify as Jews, so how do you check for DNA going back 2 thousand years.

      • eljay
        June 10, 2015, 9:10 am

        || mohandeer @ June 10, 2015, 8:56 am ||

        Zio-supremacists have a number of reasons why they are entitled to a supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine. A few that come to mind are:
        – their god gave the land to them;
        – it’s the “historic homeland” of the “Jewish people”;
        – the Holocaust;
        – their distorted definition of “self-determination”; and
        – “other groups of people have a state, so Jewish people should be allowed to have one, too”.

        None of those reasons is valid – there is no valid reason for a supremacist state of any kind – but they’ll use one or more of them at any given time and depending on which one(s) best suit the occasion.

      • just
        June 10, 2015, 9:16 am

        hmmm…

        Interesting, mohandeer.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2015, 4:28 pm

        “it means a state where the majority of the population must be “Jewish.”

        And, naturally, the Jewish State reserves to itself the right to decide who is Jewish. And all Jews in Israel are equal, except that some people are more Jewish than others, so some Jews in Israel are more equal than others.
        The world better watch out. This is a system (along with our infallible system of selecting self-selected “Jewish leaders”) which has never failed to achieve our aims, assuming anybody can agree on what those are.

    • a blah chick
      June 9, 2015, 2:36 pm

      Hopmi, no one is stopping you from organizing an Egyptian boycott. The fact that you and the rest of the Zionist corps have not done so indicates that you really don’t care about human rights in the Arab world and are engaging in misdirection.

      Israel gets more aid and support from us than ANY other nation, why shouldn’t we have a say in how they use those funds to abuse people?

      • pabelmont
        June 9, 2015, 5:32 pm

        abc: not necessarily. The fact that hophmi has not (we imagine and he doesn’t deny) created a boycott movement of Egypt may not be because he doesn’t care. Let us imagine he cares a great deal. But it’s a lot of work to create a movement and also requires a reasonable estimate of the probability (or at least possibility) of having a beneficial effect. We BDS-a-teers like to think there is a reasonable possibility that BDS will persuade Israelis to mend their ways. They’ve not done so yet, but have instead — and what an instead it is! — gotten worse and worse. And still worse and then still worse. And the BDS movement has grown.

        The Palestinians who started the BDS movement hoped for wide support, but they themselves were NOT fighting against ALL human rights violators in the world (any more than then the anti-SA-Apartheid folks fought ALL H/R violations in the world). The Palestinians had every reason to focus their BDS movement. Those who follow BDS might have many reasons. I’d like to think that horror at the increasing stink of Israel was an important one.

    • eljay
      June 9, 2015, 3:24 pm

      || hophmi: Beinart destroys Munayyer here, and exposes the hypocrisy of the BDS movement, which seeks Israel’s destruction as a Jewish state. ||

      Israel has no right to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. No state has a right to exist as a supremacist state.

    • Shingo
      June 9, 2015, 5:53 pm

      Beinart destroys Munayyer here, and exposes the hypocrisy of the BDS movement, which seeks Israel’s destruction as a Jewish state.

      You sound as unhinged as Lapid. Beinart throws up dust and ends up choking on it. Like Munayyer, I would be the first to sign on to boycott of Arab Muslim ethnocentric dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and Egypt. The problem of course is that there are no products exported from these states that are readily available or that I would buy anyway.

      In fact, if I could be frank, I would love to Riyadh reduced to rubble.

    • RoHa
      June 9, 2015, 7:32 pm

      “Israel’s destruction as a Jewish state.”

      You say that as if it were a bad thing. Why is it bad?

      • Alicia
        June 12, 2015, 7:39 pm

        Why is it good ?

        Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ? What business is it of yours ?

      • Bornajoo
        June 13, 2015, 2:31 am

        “Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ? What business is it of yours ?”

        Sorry I’m trying to follow the comments. Can you please point out where RoHa said that Jews should not be Jews? I think RoHa was asking why would it be such a bad thing if the idea of a Jewish majority state no longer existed.

        Not the Jews themselves

        I believe the question was why does it have to be a Jewish majority state and why is it so bad if it were no longer a Jewish majority state

        But I may have missed something

      • RoHa
        June 13, 2015, 12:13 am

        “Why is it good ?”

        So no answer to my question.

        I think it would be good because it would relieve the oppression of the Palestinians.

        “Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ?”

        Jews can be Jews without a Jewish state and without oppressing Arabs. It might even be possible for Arabs to be Arabs without being oppressed, though we are still awaiting empirical evidence for this.

        “What business is it of yours ?”

        Firstly, I am fed up with both my countries* being dragooned into helping the stupid Americans fight their stupid wars for Israel.

        Second, contrary to popular opinion, I am a human being. As such I am a member of the moral community, and thus have a duty and an interest in justice. The Prime Minister of Israel assures us that the existence of Israel is not compatable with justice. Not that I needed him to tell me.

        (*Australia and Britain)

      • just
        June 13, 2015, 8:34 am

        Bornajoo~ it’s a bizarre response and statement. I understood the comments that preceded this as you did.

        “Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ? What business is it of yours?”

        “Arabs

        Arabs, name originally applied to the Semitic peoples of the Arabian Peninsula. It now refers to those persons whose primary language is Arabic.”

        http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Arabs

        There are Jews who are Arabs~ ‘horrors!’

      • just
        June 13, 2015, 9:22 am

        @RoHa June 13, 2015, 12:13 am

        Bravo! +1!

        Thank you.

      • eljay
        June 13, 2015, 9:54 am

        || Alicia: Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ? ||

        Of course Arabs can be Arabs and Jews can be Jews if they so wish. But neither Arabs nor Jews are entitled to engage in supremacism or to have supremacist states.

        Do you support all forms of supremacism, or only Jewish supremacism? If the former, you are an exceptionally hateful and immoral person. If the latter, you’re an exceptionally hypocritical person.

        So…which person are you?

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 8:46 am

        @ Bornajoo

        The notion that jews don’t really exist as a people, so can’t have a jewish state, yet arabs can. Also can have islamic states.

        I’m just on the subject of double standards.

        Why is it *good* to destroy Israel as a jewish state ?

      • CigarGod
        June 18, 2015, 9:25 am

        The point is:
        Not at the expense of the others who live there who also claim a long standing right…including those who were driven out.

        What other countries do is irrelevant to this specific discussion.

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 9:17 am

        @ Roha

        ‘so no answer to my question’.

        Don’t twist meanings if you say it’s not bad, then it’s good.

        “good because it would relieve the oppression of the Palestinians’.

        In fact your answer doesn’t address this at all. Just as an Arab state can if it wishes, not oppress its minorities, so can Israel. Even being a jewish state.

        “jews can be jews without a jewish state and without oppressing arabs,. It might even be possible for Arabs to be Arabs without being oppressed… etc.

        But you still avoid the simple premise, that jews can have a jewish state but not oppress arabs, just as arabs can do the same. You don’t mention the arabs oppressing their minorities, you only mention them as oppressed.

        This is just related to the subject of double standards.

        Ok so its your business as a foreigner, a simple moral human being,and an interested political opinion. Absolutely nothing wrong in that. Everyone has opinions about Israel or Palestinians, muslims or jews, its worldwide, its endemic. Unfortunately, might I add. I wish it would all go away, pshitt, just like that, that would be wonderful.

        But your noble argument does not answer my question. Why is it good to destroy a jewish state ?

        (you know my opinions from the other thread about this)

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 9:31 am

        @ just June 13, 2015, 8:34 am

        <Bornajoo~ it’s a bizarre response and statement. I understood the comments that preceded this as you did.

        <<“Why can Arabs be arabs, and not jews be jews if they so wish ? What business is it of yours?”

        <“Arabs

        Arabs, name originally applied to the Semitic peoples of the Arabian Peninsula. It now refers to those persons whose primary language is Arabic.”

        link to encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com

        There are Jews who are Arabs~ ‘horrors!’

        @just

        You're funny, as previously in another thread, I put that same definition and added 'muslim', and got shouted out.

        It again proves all these issues of double standards. Those who call themselves arabs are not DNA related to the original Arabian penisular arabs. As you say, they are a created identity.

        So why are jews, who aren't DNA purely related to the old tribes of Israel not allowed their identity ? Personally I don't care a fig, I'm just pointing out double standards.

        And if some jews are 'arab' descended, it goes to show that they were there long before the muslim conquest. What the hell.

      • Kris
        June 18, 2015, 10:52 am

        @Alicia: ” In fact your answer doesn’t address this at all. Just as an Arab state can if it wishes, not oppress its minorities, so can Israel. Even being a jewish state.”

        Except that Israel has always been a “Jewish” state that does oppress its minorities (in violation of the teachings of Judaism), and has done so for 70+ years. Not only that, but Israel has continued a program of ethnic cleansing and theft of land and resources for 70+ years.

        Israel belongs on the dust-heap of history, along with the Third Reich, apartheid South Africa, and colonial Algeria.

      • RoHa
        June 18, 2015, 11:01 pm

        “Don’t twist meanings if you say it’s not bad, then it’s good.”

        Don’t be silly. Most things are morally neutral. In normal circumstances, shaving before brushing hair is not an act of saintly virtue, but neither is it an the most depraved evil. Similarly, destroying a Jewish state may be neither good nor bad.

        So why is it bad?

        “ Just as an Arab state can if it wishes, not oppress its minorities, so can Israel. Even being a jewish state.”

        Maybe it can exist without oppressing its minorities, but if it did not exist it certainly would not oppress Palestinians. This is a reason why destroying it would be good.

        “This is just related to the subject of double standards.”

        You seem obsessed with the idea of double standards.

        O.K., let us, for the moment, pretend that I and others here do apply double standards when discussing Israel. Let us also pretend that we apply double standards because we (and especially Mooser) are a bunch of fanatical anti-Semites who, in private, wear SS uniforms and read back copies of Der Stürmer.

        Would that make Israel’s conduct right?

        Would that mitigate, by one scrap, the evil that Israel commits daily?

        If not, stop wittering about double standards.

        “But your noble argument does not answer my question. Why is it good to destroy a jewish state ?”

        Here’s another answer.

        The idea of a Jewish State is an ethnically based state, run for the benefit of a single ethnicity. To be “Jewish”, the state cannot give equal rights to non-Jews. Otherwise it would be just another state, albeit one with a lot of Jews.

        Insofar as being “a Jewish state” implies that the state will support the supremacy of one ethnic/religious group over another, being “a Jewish state” is a breach of fundamental morality.

        The concept of a land for a specific ethnic/religious group is inherently unjust. It is always wrong for a state to privilege one ethnicity over others.

        (And don’t start maundering about how other states privilege this or that ethnicity. It’s still wrong, even if everyone does it.)

      • CigarGod
        June 19, 2015, 8:27 am

        Masterpiece, RoHa.

      • Sibiriak
        June 19, 2015, 1:21 am

        RoHa: To be “Jewish”, the state cannot give equal rights to non-Jews. Otherwise it would be just another state, albeit one with a lot of Jews. .
        ———————

        Wouldn’t a state with “a lot of Jews” have a Jewish character simply be means of that Jewish super-majority? Israel as it exists certainly does NOT give equal rights to non-Jews, but it doesn’t follow that if it DID give such rights it would necessarily cease to be a Jewish state.

      • bryan
        June 19, 2015, 4:19 am

        Alicia – “Those who call themselves arabs are not DNA related to the original Arabian peninsular Arabs” (excuse me for correcting both your spelling and your capitalization).

        You have probably been reading too many blogs written by non-geneticists and non-historians. The subject is not about Arabs in general but about Palestinians in particular, who assuredly do exist, and have far greater cultural homogeneity than the rag-bag of Israelis who have recently come from all over the world, with their diverse histories, languages, costume and religious beliefs, and have only been forged into some sort of national identity by the Zionist tools of the Hebrew language, military service and Zionist education.

        Regarding your conversation with Roha about the good, the bad and the indifferent, geneticists (as opposed to the racists who condemn miscegenation) are universally agreed about the merits of genetic diversity. Palestinians do not have exclusively Arabian DNA – the consensus I believe is that a conquering elite arrived centuries ago (the Husseini family for instance claims direct descent from the prophet Mohammed) but then intermarried with many other peoples including Egyptians and Syrians, but most of all with the indigenous “Hebrew” population of Palestine who are believed to have converted from Yahweh-ism to Christianity and later to Islam. Thus Palestinians may have more “Jewish DNA” than many Jews who may for, instance, have migrated over the course of centuries from the Caucasus region, via the Black Sea, Khazaria, Germany, Poland, Russia and thence to America and thence from Brooklyn to Jerusalem, all the while picking up some genetic admixture by such classic routes as rape and intermarriage with local ruling elites.

        You would do well to go easy on the racism thing – far more than being being a race, Jews form an identity (or in fact many different identities), a religion (or in fact many different strains of religion from atheism to ultra-orthodoxy) and a culture (or in fact many different cultures from traditional and highly particularist to very progressive and universalist).

      • eljay
        June 19, 2015, 5:40 am

        || RoHa: (And don’t start maundering about how other states privilege this or that ethnicity. It’s still wrong, even if everyone does it.) ||

        Oh, sure, deny a Zio-supremacist the use of whataboutery, one of the key tactics in the Zio-supremacist playbook. What do you suggest she use to debate you – reason? logic? facts?

        Pshhh! (Or as you might know it, pshaw! ;-) )

      • bryan
        June 19, 2015, 7:39 am

        Alicia “The notion that jews don’t really exist as a people, so can’t have a jewish state, yet arabs can.”

        This is a very tiresome argument – that Israel is just like any other state, but is a state of Jews. It most certainly is not like other western states, though it may have more similarity to the worst of islamic republics, if you think that is a worthy thing.

        Shlomo Sand, in his book ‘How I stopped being a Jew’, explains: “A comparative example will help elucidate the identitarian laws of citizenship and education that have been conspicuously strengthened and refined in Israel since the 1980s. If the United States of America decided tomorrow that it was not the state of all American citizens, but rather the state of those persons around the whole world who identify as Anglo-Saxon protestants, it would bear a striking resemblance to the Jewish state of Israel. African Americans, Latin Americans, or Jewish Americans would still have the right to take part in elections … but would have to understand … that the American state would remain eternally Anglo-Saxon… Imagine that in France it was suddenly decided to change the constitution and establish that the country was to be defined as a Gallo-Catholic state, and that 80% of its territory could be sold only to Gallo-Catholics, despite the fact that its Protestant, Muslim and Jewish citizens would continue to enjoy the right to vote and be elected…” In Germany “the Bundestag would … decree that foreign immigrants who had already obtained citizenship and taken part in political life could not marry Germans of Aryan Christian origin, with a view to preserving the German ethos for another thousand years. Great Britain would solemnly proclaim that it no longer belonged to any of its British subjects – the Scots, the Welsh, the citizens descended from immigrants from the former colonies – but was henceforth the state only of the English, those born to an English mother. Spain would …” declare “it was no longer the property of all Spaniards but an explicitly Castilian democratic state which generously granted its Catalan, Andalusian and Basque minorities a limited autonomy”.

        There would be absolutely nothing wrong if Israel were to do what other western states do and assert self-determination for the entire population of the territory with fully equality of rights and status. However to gerrymander a polity that asserts and privileges a single ethnicity, by ethnic cleansing, to deliberately cultivate an exclusively Jewish culture, rather than a majority-Jewish Israeli culture, and to disadvantage in a myriad ways those who do not belong to that ethnicity (in planning, employment, social benefits, land-ownership, right to immigrate or to choose a spouse, and in so many other ways) is a profoundly different matter. You are not putting forward a principled argument, however much you attempt to dress it up. Be gone, troll.

      • eljay
        June 19, 2015, 9:23 am

        || Sibiriak: Wouldn’t a state with “a lot of Jews” have a Jewish character simply be means of that Jewish super-majority? Israel as it exists certainly does NOT give equal rights to non-Jews, but it doesn’t follow that if it DID give such rights it would necessarily cease to be a Jewish state. ||

        If Israel were to grant equality to non-Jews, it would immediately cease to be a supremacist “Jewish State”. Over time, it might even naturally cease to be any sort of a “culturally Jewish” state. Neither of these scenarios appeals to Zio-supremacists, which is why they insist on special/different rules for Jewish Israelis (and non-Israeli Jews).

        Even in the “kinder, gentler” world of “liberal Zionism”:
        – Israel must have a legally-enshrined, permanent-majority status for Jews; and
        – it would be acceptable to redraw the borders of Israel essentially to excise (and render stateless) any non-Jewish Israeli demographic that threatens the “Jewish nature” of Israel.

      • Sibiriak
        June 19, 2015, 10:29 pm

        eljay: || Sibiriak: Wouldn’t a state with “a lot of Jews” have a Jewish character simply be means of that Jewish super-majority? Israel as it exists certainly does NOT give equal rights to non-Jews, but it doesn’t follow that if it DID give such rights it would necessarily cease to be a Jewish state. ||

        If Israel were to grant equality to non-Jews, it would immediately cease to be a supremacist “Jewish State”. Over time, it might even naturally cease to be any sort of a “culturally Jewish” state.
        —————-

        That clearly implies that Israel could be a “culturally Jewish” state while ceasing to be a “supremacist” Jewish state.
        ——————–

        Neither of these scenarios appeals to Zio-supremacists. .

        I agree completely. That’s true by definition.

        ———————

        Even in the “kinder, gentler” world of “liberal Zionism”:
        – Israel must have a legally-enshrined, permanent-majority status for Jews….

        Peter Beinart does NOT support any kind of legal-enshrined permanent majority status for Jews in Israel. Neither does Uri Avnery. Nor Norman Finkelstein. Nor Noam Chomsky. And so on. Does that mean folks like them are not “liberal Zionists”, even though they support a two-state settlement?

        ———–
        it would be acceptable to redraw the borders of Israel essentially to excise (and render stateless) any non-Jewish Israeli demographic that threatens the “Jewish nature” of Israel.

        Again, not true for Beinart et al.

      • eljay
        June 20, 2015, 7:57 am

        || Sibiriak: That clearly implies that Israel could be a “culturally Jewish” state while ceasing to be a “supremacist” Jewish state. ||

        Yes, it could.

        || Peter Beinart does NOT support any kind of legal-enshrined permanent majority status for Jews in Israel. Neither does Uri Avnery. Nor Norman Finkelstein. Nor Noam Chomsky. And so on. Does that mean folks like them are not “liberal Zionists”, even though they support a two-state settlement? ||

        No, they could still be “liberal Zionists”. I wouldn’t expect all “liberal Zionists” to be in perfect agreement with one another.

        || Again, not true for Beinart et al. ||

        But true for R.W. and, undoubtedly, for (some? many?) others.

    • CigarGod
      June 10, 2015, 8:52 am

      I see your problem, hophmi.
      You have a prism in front of both your eyes.
      Slide it over to cover just one eye…even if it is the Right one…you will gain a wider perspective.

      • bintbiba
        June 19, 2015, 9:18 am

        @ RoHa at 11:01

        The logic of morality / the morality of logic.
        Either way …. Great comment , RoHa.! (I may be partial about the veracity of morality of logic … How iffy is that ? am willing to learn more !)
        (Your aside about Mooser is mischievously charming ! )

    • Boo
      June 10, 2015, 10:26 am

      I already boycott the Gulf States. I don’t own a car and ride my bicycle everywhere. I don’t purchase any Gulf States products that I can identify from their labels (not that there are many available around here). I don’t believe in double standards.

      But my feelings are stronger about the BDS Israel movement because — unlike Israel — the Gulf States aren’t constantly prating of their superior ethics and system of government or whining that they deserve special care and handling because “something”. Nor do I see the Gulf States systematically and repeatedly assaulting civilians without any effort to exclude women and children — though I’ve certainly condemned them on the infrequent occasions when they have.

      If you want to believe your strawmen have any basis in reality, though, feel free.

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 10:05 am

        @Boo June 10, 2015, 10:26 am

        “I already boycott the Gulf States. I don’t own a car and ride my bicycle everywhere. I don’t purchase any Gulf States products that I can identify from their labels (not that there are many available around here). I don’t believe in double standards.”

        haha, really, ? You ride a bicyle to boycott gulf states ??! :))

        Of course you can’t boycott other products, they don’t produce any.

        “But my feelings are stronger about the BDS Israel movement because — unlike Israel — the Gulf States aren’t constantly prating of their superior ethics and system of government or whining that they deserve special care and handling because “something”. Nor do I see the Gulf States systematically and repeatedly assaulting civilians without any effort to exclude women and children — though I’ve certainly condemned them on the infrequent occasions when they have.”

        Where do you live, on Mars ?

        Never heard about their oil wealth used to spread wahhabist ideology from east to west, north to south ? How they ‘invest’ in western countries as they have so much to spend, yet with various ‘conditions’, like ‘we’ll buy your weapons, football clubs, build a big tower, but you must have AJ on your TV wavelengths ? Or have another hundred mosques built ?

        You’ve never heard muslims ‘whine’ ? must be deaf… pfff

      • bryan
        June 19, 2015, 5:01 am

        Alicia -” Of course you can’t boycott other products, they don’t produce any”.

        I have to confess I have a soft spot for Omani dates, Al Jazeera TV, British horse-racing, Lebanese and Moroccan restaurants, (or indeed any spicy food utilising Arabian pepper, cardamom, cinnamon, ginger, nutmeg and cloves) and sharia financial products (so much better than usurious pay-day loans). I hear that despite the resource curse of too much oil under the stand, exports of cotton, gold and gems, dried fish, chemicals and aluminium from the Arab world are currently booming. Oh and I find European civilisation benefited hugely from a host of Arab inventions relating to metallurgy, chemicals, optics, hydraulics, geometry, surgery, irrigation, windmills, higher education etc etc. And where would we be if we still stuck using cumbersome Roman numerals and had not learned algebra.

        Is you head in the sand or have you just been well-indoctrinated.

  3. Peter Feld
    June 9, 2015, 2:02 pm

    The idea of BDS as hypocritical is based on a misunderstanding of its goals and how it works. In a talk last month BDS co-founder Omar Barghouti noted that successful boycotts are strategic, not maximalist. Targets are chosen for leverage.

    Boycotting isn’t a “punishment” to be meted out proportionately to all offenders as a form of global citizen justice, it’s a tactic to be used strategically, when it can be effective. Israel is vulnerable to boycott pressure in a way that Saudi Arabia couldn’t be, because Israel depends on US and European goodwill and the perception that it shares our values, and is terrified of isolation.

    Calling BDS a double standard is a recipe for not doing anything unless you can address every problem. We’d still have apartheid in South Africa if people thought it was hypocritical to target them and not other countries.

    • Citizen
      June 9, 2015, 2:46 pm

      Another factor: SA offers oil. Not a little thing.

    • Philip Weiss
      June 9, 2015, 2:51 pm

      Thank you Peter, very helpful

    • just
      June 9, 2015, 3:20 pm

      Great comment, Peter. Thank you.

      Munayyer’s points are reasoned, rational, and perspicacious. He’s one heck of a representative/advocate for justice.

      (I’m sorry, but the very allegation of a “double standard” is straight out of the Hasbara handbook)

    • Shingo
      June 9, 2015, 5:57 pm

      Calling BDS a double standard is a recipe for not doing anything unless you can address every problem

      In fact, the double standard is from those oppose boycott, seeing as opponents of BDS pretty much all support the blockade of Gaza, embargo of Iran etc.

      What’s more, is that the so called Liberal Zionists insist on no punitive measures being taken against Israel whatsoever.

    • Chana
      June 9, 2015, 6:18 pm

      I totally agree with the comment that ‘Boycotting isn’t a “punishment” to be meted out proportionately to all offenders as a form of global citizen justice.’ I would like to expand a little, however, on this whole issue of ‘unfairness’ or ‘double standards’ when it comes to boycotting Israel versus, say, Saudi Arabia. This is always the whine.

      For me, the issue is that I DO have a double standard, if you like to call it that. I do, or perhaps, sadly now, used to think that Israel was simply a more ethical country than, say, Saudi Arabia. Apparently the Israeli Government thinks that Saudi Arabia, even ISIS/ISIS/IS is the standard that Israel should aim at. Hence the ‘double standard’ complaint. Why should Israel be treated differently? Criticised more? Boycotted? it cries, when SA and ISIS aren’t.

      Well, if it wants Israel to be treated similarly in terms of strong criticism, then I would point out that, as I understand it, currently Iran and Russia are under sanctions. Would Israel prefer that to BDS?

      But deep down, I know that the real reason that I support BDS being applied to Israel, is that being Jewish, I am linked to Israel, whether I like it or not. I gew up with the JNF Blue Box. Israel was the natural place to go to. I have distant relatives there…So yes, I expect better of Israel. I am emotionally involved when I read about what Israel is doing re Palestine and Palestinians. By the same token I feel tainted by Israel’s brutality. The same feelings do not apply when I read of ISIS’s revolting actions. I am revolted and appalled, but it’s that bit more distant. I would support action against ISIS, but again, without quite the same emotional charge I feel about Israel. Israel proclaims it is a Jewish State, so it drags me into its orbit, against my will. That’s why, for me, there is a double standard. And I defend it.

      • Philip Weiss
        June 9, 2015, 6:32 pm

        Thank you, I agree with you.

      • Mooser
        June 9, 2015, 8:21 pm

        If Zionism pushes too hard, Jews could end up not only rejecting Zionism, but making sure they repudiate Zionism.

      • Peter Feld
        June 10, 2015, 1:13 pm

        Thank you, I agree too. Israel is basically a creature of the US and Europe so of course we hold it to our own standards—all the more so those of us who are ex-Zionists. Most injustices we on the left have protested—Vietnam, El Salvador and Nicaragua, South Africa, opposing the Iraq war—have been ones where the US bore direct fault. Though it’s an ally, the US doesn’t send Saudi Arabia $4.5 billion per year or protect its regime at the UN.

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 10:42 am

        @ Chana June 9, 2015, 6:18 pm

        That’s a very honest and sincere comment. It also explains lots of things. It’s very true that Israel has and is expected to have higher standards than its surrounding countries. So as many jewish people live in democratic countries, they expect the same standards.

        You can or should therefore understand why others who don’t have that personal relationship can see things a bit differently ? Can see that the Israel/Pal conflict is distant and unending, often seeing the Pals as the most at fault. Yet seeing other conflicts or morally as more important because they’re also at our doorsteps ? And its often jews who are targetted in Europe.

        And politically, what are European leaders supposed to do ? Their hands are often tied for commercial reasons, for internal economic and social problems. The Israel /Pal conflict is not on the top of their agenda. It’s way below it. I can tell you that in France sympathies do not go to Pals, except for a minority of ultra leftists and muslim militants.

        It’s simply a question of not being or feeling involved. It’s like ‘they’ll never solve anything in that part of the world’.

        I’m personally sorry in fact, as it should have been ‘solved’ long before.

      • James North
        June 18, 2015, 10:57 am

        “Pals” is a derogatory term for “Palestinians.” If you continue to use it, I suspect the moderators will take action.

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 1:19 pm

        James North June 18, 2015, 10:57 am

        Sorry, for me it’s not derogatory, it’s a simple abbreviation, but if people are sensitive, will abstain. We must respect the codes of where we are, I agree, universally.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2015, 4:39 pm

        “We must respect the codes of where we are, I agree, universally.”

        That is sometimes a difficult challenge. However, if we look to the Zionists for inspiration in in respecting “the codes of where we are, universally” we can never go wrong in this respect, can we, Alicia?

        Ah yes, remember how the Zionists even respected the outrageous gratuities expected by the staff at the King David Hotel.

    • Alicia
      June 18, 2015, 10:21 am

      @ Peter Feld June 9, 2015, 2:02 pm

      “it’s a tactic to be used strategically, when it can be effective. Israel is vulnerable to boycott pressure in a way that Saudi Arabia couldn’t be, because Israel depends on US and European goodwill and the perception that it shares our values, and is terrified of isolation. – ”

      if that’ not an example of double standards I don’t know what is.

      Oh we can’t put pressure on the most abusive of muslim countries, because……….

      We can on Israel, because …… … So we do……..

      Great, use its vulnerability, let’s just destroy it because we want to, we know there are far worse than Israel but we’re just obsessed because its jewish, and we don’t like the fact that Europe or US defends it.

      What a horrible argument.

      • Kris
        June 18, 2015, 10:41 am

        @Alicia: “but we’re just obsessed because its jewish,…”

        Please provide evidence for your assertion of antisemitism. Thanks.

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 1:27 pm

        Kris June 18, 2015, 10:41 am

        <<@Alicia: “but we’re just obsessed because its jewish,…”

        <Please provide evidence for your assertion of antisemitism. Thanks.

        My quote and others are ample, the destruction of a jewish state is the aim. Whether that's antisemite, I don't know, don't care, it's the language and political purpose that bothers me. And, as it's the subject, the double standards despite all the denials.

    • Alicia
      June 18, 2015, 1:13 pm

      @ Peter Feld
      June 10, 2015, 1:13 pm

      ‘Though it’s an ally, the US doesn’t send SA £4.5 billion per year or protect it’s regime at the UN.

      Really ? Well, I don’t know about the figures, but the $s that flood into KSA doesn’t come out of thin air. It comes out of my pocket too, at some time. And don’t worry its regime is well protected, with Prince Charles (and every dhimmi who queued up to kiss the new monarch’s hand) makes sure of that.

      As for defending communist countries and people like Saddam, vs US meddling and bad policies, it’s a long complicated story but just counting the millions dead, could help.

      Defending communist soviet policies as an argument won’t go very far today seeing as though most of them have joined western capitalism and democracy.

  4. michelle
    June 9, 2015, 2:11 pm

    .
    and yet this/his ‘Jewish’ prism won’t allow
    the views of so many Jews who see a need for change
    .
    so much for that analog
    .
    G-d Bless
    .

  5. ckg
    June 9, 2015, 2:52 pm

    Oddly, in Haaretz in late May, Beinart presented a perfectly rational defense of the focused outrage that the BDS activists in the West give to Israel’s abuse of Palestinians.

    Yes, Israel suffers from a double standard. Anti-Zionist activists are not equally outraged by the abuses committed by post-colonial regimes like Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Iran. But that’s because the activist left is always more outraged by Western abuses than non-Western ones. The same left-wing types who now protest Israel more than they protest Saudi Arabia also protested apartheid South Africa more than they protested Idi Amin, protested the Iraq War more than they protested Saddam Hussein, and protested the World Bank’s economic policies more than they protested North Korea’s.

    It’s impossible to understand either the antipathy Israel faces in some quarters of the American left or the adulation it receives on the American right without recognizing that Americans see Israel as a Western country.

    Anti-Zionism is growing because Palestinians are convincing left-leaning young Americans that Israel is a Western country that, with American support, systematically oppresses its non-Western, Palestinian, population.

    • ritzl
      June 9, 2015, 9:53 pm

      To me, a huge amount of the “the antipathy Israel faces in some quarters of the American left” stems from betrayal, nothing more and nothing less.

      Israel had it and blew it. Voluntary support and/or affinity for Israel is a thing of the past and/or of an Adelson-unit* shelf-life.

      And again, Beinart fails to acknowledge that all those other evils are universally condemned. NO ONE holds them up as positive examples. Israel, alone, is not condemned and is constantly and falsely touted as a positive/virtuous example. That’s why the focus is there. It has nothing to do with being viewed as “Western” or anything of the kind. It’s about unchallenged hypocrisy over decades (heh, which is certainly a “Western” trait, but not its definition).

      It’s also arguable that, given all the global political energy and money spent on protecting Israel’s falsehoods and wrongdoing, solving this problem is the singular gateway to solving the others.

      * How long does he have left, anyway?

      • Alicia
        June 18, 2015, 1:59 pm

        @ ritzl June 9, 2015, 9:53 pm

        You’re too black and white. It’s not true that ‘all those other evils are universally condemned’. That’s a lie or ignorance.

        ‘NO ONE holds them up as positive examples’

        another lie. KSA receives millions of pilgrims each year. They don’t think they’re a positive example ? Maybe not all, maybe they don’t even ‘think’ as we do. It’s just an irrational religious duty. Many (??unknown) DO think that KSA is a positive example for their beliefs, and practices.

        Do you know that in the UK, public majority muslim schools send pupils to visit Mecca, that was only reserved for muslim pupils and teachers ? It was paid by taxpayers, as a ‘cultural/educational trip’. Just sayin’.

        Who are you talking about, western leftists, rightists or the muslim world, that does exist y’know and are part of the United (not really but do their best), Nations, so have their influence, notably the richest and the most violent.

        As for ‘Israel had it and blew it’, I could say, yes, but so did palestinians. Pity for all.

    • Alicia
      June 18, 2015, 1:41 pm

      ckg
      June 9, 2015, 2:52 pm

      Agree with that, in fact, it’s saying that hypocrisy and double standards are everywhere, it’s just human nature ? And going with the winds of the moment.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2015, 4:44 pm

        “Agree with that, in fact, it’s saying that hypocrisy and double standards are everywhere, it’s just human nature ? And going with the winds of the moment.”

        Exactly, and that’s why nobody will miss Zionism (well, except for all the people who will be exposed to prosecution for crimes committed under Zionism’s auspices) when it goes.

  6. eljay
    June 9, 2015, 3:22 pm

    Two problems with Mr. Beinart’s comments:

    1. Saudi Arabia is not the only indicator that Israel is being “singled out” – Israel has yet to experience the sort of “singling out” that has been applied to Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya (among others). Would Mr. Beinart feel better if Israel were to join them?

    (Zio-supremacists never fail to praise Israel as being the best state / among the best states in the world, and then to defend it by comparing it with the worst.)

    2. Jewish citizens of many countries have been treated unfairly. Non-Jewish citizens of many countries have been treated unfairly. The solution to acts of injustice and immorality committed against any person or group of people is justice, accountability and equality, universally and consistently applied. The solution was not, is not and never should be the creation of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and/or (religion-)supremacist state.

    • Bornajoo
      June 9, 2015, 6:38 pm

      Good comment Eljay!

      And no its not double standards. It’s just Richard Cohen playing the anti semitic card

      And this is all we are going to get from them along with the holocaust but even more, much more than ever before.

    • RockyMissouri
      June 10, 2015, 10:18 am

      Thank you!

  7. Steve Grover
    June 9, 2015, 3:52 pm

    Just finished with a run. I’m enjoying some Strauss Hummus and some soda water made with my SodaStream and a Jaffa orange while reading this. Can’t find Israeli made pita so I’m having NorthShore Bakery Pita.

    • a blah chick
      June 9, 2015, 4:19 pm

      You go for it, sir. The day Israel is supported solely by Zionist charity will be a great day for us all.

    • just
      June 9, 2015, 4:34 pm

      tmi and puerile.

      You’ve already made it abundantly clear that you wholeheartedly endorse Israeli war crimes, Occupation, and apartheid.

    • echinococcus
      June 9, 2015, 4:42 pm

      Good thing you called that.
      I am as of right now boycotting North Shore Bakery Pita and inviting everybody to do so, too.

      • ivri
        June 9, 2015, 5:50 pm

        @echin
        Don`t forget to boycott also Intel, Google and all the rest of the hi-tech/Internet giants – their contribution to Israel`s economy even transcends the Pitas and the sodas. And to be on the safe side also throw away all electronic gadgets you have – they are all likely to have some Israeli-made part (almost all Internet security related ones are one way or another originate in or linked to Israel).

      • John O
        June 9, 2015, 6:36 pm

        @ivri

        Thanks for the tip. But it’s difficult sometimes to know where the products you are using come from. I have no idea if the fuel I put into my car comes from Saudi Arabia or the coast of Norway. So, I, like many others, just do what I can. And that means identifying identifying companies that are most certainly complicit in Israel’s illegal activities, and boycotting them.

      • talknic
        June 9, 2015, 7:07 pm

        @ ivri

        “Don`t forget to boycott also Intel, Google ..”,

        A) The Intel stuff in my computer is made in China and Taiwan. Are they in the Occupied Territories or Israel?

        B) Google.co.il is in the Technology Center, Haifa, 3190500, Israel, not the Occupied Territories.

        C) I use Google.com.au Level 5, 48 Pirrama Road, Pyrmont, NSW 2009 Australia, not the Occupied Territories or Israel.

        ” and all the rest of the hi-tech/Internet giants – their contribution to Israel`s economy …”

        ‘all the rest’? A) You’re delusional B) Do they operate from the Occupied Territories?

        “And to be on the safe side also throw away all electronic gadgets you have”

        If someone already has them, throwing them away ain’t gonna make any difference you stupid person. Far better to use them to help expose Israel’s illegal activities in non-Israeli territories.

      • Shingo
        June 10, 2015, 8:03 am

        I use Google.com.au Level 5, 48 Pirrama Road, Pyrmont, NSW 2009 Australia

        Wow Talknic, are you really in Sydney? That address is 5-10 mins from where I live.

      • just
        June 10, 2015, 9:14 am

        Cool!

      • talknic
        June 10, 2015, 9:35 am

        Shingo “Wow Talknic, are you really in Sydney?”

        Yes.

        ” That address is 5-10 mins from where I live”

        40 minute walk from where I live

      • Annie Robbins
        June 10, 2015, 1:32 pm

        talknic and shingo are neighbors!

      • just
        June 10, 2015, 1:39 pm

        It’s wonderful to know that all of that great brain power and humanity is emanating from neighbors in Sydney!

    • Shingo
      June 9, 2015, 5:59 pm

      Keep it up Steve,

      Jaffa oranges were created by the Palestinians and Soda Stream could use all the help it can get based on it’s sad share prices.

    • talknic
      June 9, 2015, 6:48 pm

      @ Steve Grover Just finished with a run. I’m enjoying some Strauss Hummus and some soda water made with my SodaStream and a Jaffa orange while reading this. Can’t find Israeli made pita so I’m having NorthShore Bakery Pita.

      A) Now you’re running off at the mouth, telling us you’re in Australia, Sydney and you support the illegal exploitation of non-Israeli resources by Israeli companies, a war crime

      What a clever little propagandist. What if some extremist did a search for Grover S in the White pages and decided to teach you a lesson? Does your family know you’re an idiot?

      B) Australia has imports of Jaffa grapefruit from Mehadrin Tnuport Export (MTEX), Beqa’ot, the illegal Israeli settlement in the Jordan Valley. Your Jaffa orange is more likely from Australia or China than the war criminals MTEX

      • echinococcus
        June 10, 2015, 4:42 pm

        Talknic,

        I think you are being somewhat damaging to the boycott movement by insisting in depicting it as if it were necessarily limited to the post-1967 occupation (I’ll call it the Zionist’s boycott), instead of the entire body of relationships with the Zionist entity. This is extremely damaging to the boycott’s image inasmuch as it presents it as an illogical, half-assed, ineffective thing.
        Keep your opinions by all means, but please avoid this kind of tendentious presentation. A good number of people are boycotting everything even vaguely marked “Israel”.

      • talknic
        June 11, 2015, 12:17 am

        @ echinococcus June 10, 2015, 4:42 pm

        ” Keep your opinions by all means, but please avoid this kind of tendentious presentation”

        I’ve not made any such presentation

        ” A good number of people are boycotting everything even vaguely marked “Israel””

        Ditto, for the simple reason that the State of Israel has been responsible for the State of Israel’s illegal activities in non-Israeli territories for the last 67 years.

    • michelle
      June 10, 2015, 2:37 am

      .
      @Steve Grover
      .
      seems like it’s good to support the things
      you believe with your heart and soul to be truthful fair and just
      and allow others to do likewise
      .
      G-d Bless
      .

    • CigarGod
      June 10, 2015, 9:11 am

      Ha!
      Check out the second hand stores. Those flimsy Sodastream kits are going for a dollar. The hummus at my market has been a loss leader for 6 months.

  8. Keith
    June 9, 2015, 5:50 pm

    “Richard Cohen has a piece up at the Washington Post titled, “The ugly effort to boycott Israel,” accusing those leading the boycott movement of anti-semitism because they have a double standard, ignoring human rights abuses in Egypt, including genital mutilation.”

    The double standard argument is stunning in its hypocrisy. Both the US and Israel have long opposed secular Arab regimes and supported Muslim fundamentalists as a means of preventing secular pan-Arabism. All of the loathsome regimes in the Middle East claimed to be worse than Israel are the ones that US/Israel support, including Egypt and Saudi Arabia. A strong case can be made that without US/Israel interference in Middle Eastern politics, most or all of these regimes would have been replaced by ones more responsive to the people. And in places where the US and/or Israel has intervened, women have suffered, from Afghanistan to Libya to Iraq. Perhaps the resolution of the injustice in Palestine will be the first step in the overall betterment of the entire Middle East. How hypocritical to point the finger at vassal states!

    • ritzl
      June 9, 2015, 9:18 pm

      Great comment, Keith. Spot on.

    • Walid
      June 10, 2015, 12:11 am

      What does Egypt’s FMG have to do with the Israel-Palestine conflict? Is Cohen hinting that he wouldn’t object to it if there’d be no boycott of Israel?

    • yonah fredman
      June 12, 2015, 10:53 am

      oldgeezer- there was no exile from the land of israel. there was definitely an exile from Jerusalem, a rule from the new owners of Jerusalem that kicked Jews out and then allowed them back only on sufferance.

    • oldgeezer
      June 12, 2015, 11:26 am

      @yonah

      Yes I know what you mean. I also know your opinion of me is nicer than my opinion of you.

      I dont recall asking for any laws to be passed. I just want Israel to abide by international law and IHL and live up to it’s commitments. Not that I expect that it ever will.

    • Kris
      June 12, 2015, 12:02 pm

      @yonah fredman:

      But can you name one Jewish ritual you do not oppose. Can you say that you are in favor of the survival of the jews as a group. Don’t you wish them all to convert to the light of Christianity? Or have I misunderstood your disdain for the Jewish religion and expanded it beyond the narrow disdain that you will now delineate.

      Thank you for discussing this with me, yonah. I am surprised that you think I have “disdain for the Jewish religion,” since I have great respect for Judaism. Unless Judaism is the same as Zionism.

      The “Jewish” state and its supporters behave with shocking cruelty towards the Palestinians, though the teachings of Judaism remind Jews to be merciful and generous towards everyone else because Jews have suffered, too.

      OTOH, Zionism tells Jews to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians, and deny them basic human rights, because Jews have suffered.

      You are here at mondoweiss regularly, so you must be aware of the suffering that Zionist Jews are inflicting on the Palestinians every single day, decade after decade. Yet you can look away. How is that possible, given that you have contempt for those who looked away from the Holocaust?

      I don’t know anything about Jewish rituals. Is Yom Kippur a ritual? I approve of repentence and atonement; not seeing that from the Jewish community when it comes to decades of oppressing the Palestinians, though.

      I do object to practices, in any religion or culture, that involve harming/altering any person who is unable to give informed consent.

      Should Jews “survive as a group”? Sure, if they are a group that respects the human rights of other people. But no people have the right to organize themselves into groups that oppress other people. Not as Israel, not as apartheid South Africa, not as the Third Reich.

      No, I don’t want Jews or any other religious groups to convert to Christianity. What I’d like is for everyone–Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists. Wiccans, whatever– to treat other people with the same respect, kindness, and generosity that they would like for themselves.

      • Bornajoo
        June 12, 2015, 12:29 pm

        Great comment Kris.

        Many thanks!

    • eljay
      June 12, 2015, 12:50 pm

      || y.f.: … can you name one Jewish ritual you do not oppose. ||

      || RoHa: … I don’t know enough about [Jewish rituals]. Perhaps you could describe one or two and show that their positive aspects outweigh the negative aspects. ||

      || y.f.: Roha- Thank you for your honesty. I will pass on the opportunity to teach you about Judaism. In another lifetime. Maybe. ||

      For a guy who, only two days ago, complained about the lack of communication with Zionists, this scoffing reply to RoHa’s overture is quite the about-face.

    • echinococcus
      June 12, 2015, 4:30 pm

      Some of my best friends are atheists

      (Mr. Fredman)

      How nice. Some of my best friends and family are Jewish.

    • RoHa
      June 13, 2015, 2:54 am

      Echinococcus, my wife’s sister married a Frenchman, but I try not to let that prejudice my view of the French.

    • echinococcus
      June 13, 2015, 11:23 am

      RoHa,
      For a person standing with the feet up and the head down, you’re certainly likable but I fear that you will be unable to reciprocate.

      • RoHa
        June 13, 2015, 7:57 pm

        Reciprocating in a inverted position is difficult, but not impossible.

      • echinococcus
        June 14, 2015, 1:52 pm

        Not when you see my birthplace.

  9. MHughes976
    June 9, 2015, 6:29 pm

    I think that Zionism in the totality of its ideas and effects is one of the worst things in the world, inflicting cruel and humiliating suffering in its own region, causing morally mistaken, even crazy, ideas – religious and other – to be accepted in the Western world, making stability in the main oil-producing region almost impossible. This is bad enough to call for some counteraction. There doesn’t seem to me to be a moral imperative to respond to every bad (or indeed to every good) thing in exactly the same way, except to ask yourself what the situation permits you to do and to do it. Sometimes there can be no more than words, though words become more important if the people who are, in your opinion, going wrong are also defending themselves amid a great barrage of words and arguments of their own. Sometimes boycotts have a chance of working and then – though I think that they always produce anomalies – they should be given a try.
    Sometimes good things should be supported in one way (say with donations of money) sometimes in another, say only with praise, perhaps sometimes only by joining in creating a quiet atmosphere of approval.
    Beinart’s argument that boycotts are morally appropriate beyond but not within the Green Line is very strange. The fundamental oppression that exists beyond it is organised behind it: there cannot be a serious moral difference.

    • MHughes976
      June 12, 2015, 1:42 pm

      The more I think about it the more astonishing it seems that someone should argue with serious intent that it’s OK to take measures affecting a place where ‘fundamental oppression’ is practised but not OK to take the very same measures so that they also affect the place where the very same fundamental oppression is being organised.
      My idea about the survival of groups would be that it cannot in itself be a moral objective to ensure (say) that in future generations someone is practising the rituals and preaching the theology of the Assyrian Nestorian Church, much as I sympathise with the Assyrians now that they are being, it appears, horribly victimised. They deserve a fair chance to recover, so I wouldn’t mind donating to the repair of their churches but that is about their having a fair chance in the world’s debates, not about ensuring that they survive regardless without how they fare in discussion and argument. It doesn’t make sense to object to the possibility that more people will, rather than stick to the opinions they have now, come to share the opinions that I consider to be true.
      Freedom of religion (if it is a coherent idea) surely means that nothing considered to be a religious commandment by one group overrides the laws agreed in a process open to all groups: otherwise in some circumstances and to some degree the state is controlled by the relevant ‘church’ and the freedom of every individual to stand out against the teachings of that ‘church’ implies some conflict with the state, ie certain a lack of freedom (since the state has coercive powers) in religious matters.

  10. yonah fredman
    June 9, 2015, 7:31 pm

    Beinart cannot support BDS, because BDS’s goal is not limited to the West Bank, but wishes to undo Israel. (a short hand term that means that BDS wishes to change the demography as soon as possible to a singular state with an Arab majority. Some believe that such a state would be as benevolent as the US, others expect something as chaotic as Lebanon or as malevolent towards Jews as Algeria was to the pieds noirs. but in either case this is the assumed goal of BDS.) Beinart cannot join such a movement because of its goal.

    • Elliot
      June 9, 2015, 11:32 pm

      The U.S. invests over 80% of its direct foreign aid in maintaining the status quo of Israel. It backs that up with the Sixth Fleet, other military and lots of political capital. If the U.S. can sustain the current, unstable, violent status quo, what’s to stop it creating a more just – and therefore more stable – democratic state. You may not have faith in Arabs but the U.S.’s power in the region is demonstrated every day.

      • yonah fredman
        June 10, 2015, 4:59 pm

        Elliot- I am glad that your conception of the future one state is so benevolent if only the US truly wills it. I won’t spend much time thinking about it, but I’m glad that you see a happy future if only the US was not in its present state of mind.

    • Walid
      June 10, 2015, 12:04 am

      “… or as malevolent towards Jews as Algeria was to the pieds noirs. ” (Yonah)

      I would hope so, since the exploitation of Palestinians by Zionists is not much different from that of the Jewish pieds-noirs towards the Algerian nationals. The Jewish and other colonists of Algeria got what was coming to them. The US is benevolent?

    • echinococcus
      June 10, 2015, 12:48 am

      One more misleading post by the usual Mr. Fredman, aiming to confuse everybody (or reflecting an unbelievable depth of mental confusion.) He thinks he is sly enough to camouflage the fact that BDS targeting post-1967 areas only is nothing but a pro-Zionist fake boycott. The one for which Beinart supplies all the right arguments for doing it, while playing the usual phony refusal to join it.

    • talknic
      June 10, 2015, 3:29 am

      @ yonah fredman ” BDS’s goal is not limited to the West Bank, but wishes to undo Israel. (a short hand term that means that BDS wishes to change the demography as soon as possible to a singular state with an Arab majority. “

      How? Only non-Jewish Israeli citizens who were dispossessed have a right to return to Israel and they are now by far outnumbered by Jewish Israelis.

      Other Palestine refugees, who are by far the majority of refugees do not have RoR to Israel. They have RoR to what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared independent of Palestine.

    • Elliot
      June 10, 2015, 11:05 pm

      Yonah – You fault BDS because you see its goal as achieving a one state solution. Your fear of one state is not an excuse for denying whatever justice the Palestinians can get right now.
      Regarding your pronouncement about how BDS working, you wouldn’t bother to address the 1SS without BDS. Thanks for confirming the success of the BDS strategy.

      • yonah fredman
        June 11, 2015, 10:24 pm

        Elliot- Please.
        The one state solution (including the exile of all Jews who moved to Palestine after 1917, but nonetheless a one state solution) was the position of the PLO from 1965 until 1988. It is not BDS that invented this idea.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 11, 2015, 10:32 pm

        what exile of all jews who moved to palestine after 1917? what does that have to do w/bds? they not only didn’t ‘invent it’ they don’t ascribe to it.

        you’re just muddying the water here. this is a disingenuous form of argument.

      • yonah fredman
        June 13, 2015, 3:11 pm

        Annie- Correct, the BDS movement is not interested in exiling the Jews, and my statement was confusing. I merely wished to say, that the broad outline of a one state solution has existed in the PLO charter since 1965. (that charter included the odious expulsion that I cited. BDS leaders expect many Jews to leave, but expulsion, as policy rather than as a predictable effect, is not part of the BDS program.)

      • Annie Robbins
        June 13, 2015, 3:50 pm

        that charter included the odious expulsion that I cited.

        would you mind citing that expulsion in quotes. i’m lazy.

        https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html

        i do note

        We. The Palestinian Arab people, depending on our right of self-defense and the complete restoration of our lost homeland

        is this what you mean. please be specific.

        BDS leaders expect many Jews to leave, but expulsion, as policy rather than as a predictable effect, is not part of the BDS program.)

        as a predictive effect – do you think many jews would leave if palestinians were granted equal rights in the entirety of their homeland?

      • echinococcus
        June 13, 2015, 5:19 pm

        Mister Fredman,

        Is the “odious expulsion” clause Article 7, by any chance:

        “Jews who are of Palestinian origin will be considered Palestinians if they are willing to live loyally and peacefully in Palestine”

        Sounds very reasonable.

      • Kris
        June 13, 2015, 7:11 pm

        yonah fredman, could you provide links to where you learned that the PLO or any other Palestinian group calls for expulsion of all Jews in Palestine?

        Though it does seem reasonable that Jews should be expelled from Palestinian land that they have stolen. Why should anyone be allowed to keep stolen property?

        Haven’t there been huge efforts for the past 70 years or so to locate and return property that was stolen from the Jews during the Holocaust?

      • yonah fredman
        June 14, 2015, 10:57 am

        Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

        This is the article to which I was referring. In fact there is no statement of compulsory expulsion, but it is implied. Also “the Zionist invasion” although sometimes interpreted as beginning in 1917 with the capture of Jerusalem by Allenby of the Brits (with the mandate heading down the avenue), could very well also include Jews with Zionist intentions who arrived far earlier than 1917. (David Ben Gurion nee Grun, arrived in 1906 and was expelled by the Turks when WWI began.)

        Referring to the desire of the PLO to kick out the Zionist invaders is only odious to those who value peace. The factual (rather than merely a stated desire) expulsion of the Palestinians is seen as odious by Palestinians (and who can blame them?)

      • Annie Robbins
        June 14, 2015, 3:41 pm

        yonah, you say the charter included an “odious expulsion” and then you acknowledge/admit there was in fact no reference to expulsion at all, then claim compulsory expulsion” is implied”.

        no it isn’t and you didn’t answer my question. again:

        “as a predictive effect – do you think many jews would leave if palestinians were granted equal rights in the entirety of their homeland?”

        because you said “BDS leaders expect many Jews to leave, but expulsion, as policy rather than as a predictive effect, is not part of the BDS program”

        i’m just curious here how jews leaving rather than living as equal citizens could imply expulsion “as a predictive effect?” they are not really the same thing at all. it’s not the same as palestinians leaving because of threat of death or living like dogs.

        you say “The factual (rather than merely a stated desire) expulsion of the Palestinians is seen as odious by Palestinians (and who can blame them?)” exactly, but you can’t compare the two in the least. this usage of the term “expulsion” is a rhetorical device to create the idea of a kind of parity between jews leaving voluntarily because they can’t live as equals (can’t give up their privilege) vs palestinians who leave because they have NO RIGHTS or under threat of death, imprisonment. and then claim “it’s implied”.

        there is no “expulsion” implied from bds, period. there’s only people, not that different than you and me, who for whatever reason, might leave if they have to live as equals on the land. that is a far far cry from expulsion. unless you’re talking about jewish soldiers being expelled from the WB under a 2S scenario that is. or settlers unwilling to live under palestinian rule in a 2S scenario. i think you just like using the “expulsion” meme.

        now from a personal stolen plots of land or homes, perhaps. but not from the region. in a 2SS they could go to israel, that’s not an expulsion to the US or europe. and in a 1SS no one is suggesting anyone leave the region either. but will they? a bunch of them no doubt. but it’s not expulsion, implied or otherwise. it’s abandonment from the (horror! or fear) of the prospects of equality.

      • echinococcus
        June 14, 2015, 1:32 pm

        Mr. Fredman,

        Now that you put it like that, this clause of the Charter sounds even more reasonable. Any Zionist arriving after the start of the Zionist invasion is of course an invader, how could there be any doubt about that? Placing the start at 1917 is a stretch (on your part?) I would have placed it at the Basle Congress, if we want to consider the 1882 Rothschild settlements as peaceful. I must say I was quite upset at the time when they sold the Resistance to the invader and modified the wording.
        As for peace, it only has one synonym: Justice. If you reject, that is, the Genghisian concept of peace of the cemetery, which you obviously do not.
        The expulsion of the owners of the land (injustice) by uninvited invaders is not comparable to that of invaders (justice), should historical circumstances end up at that extreme. It didn’t reach that far even in Algeria, where citizenship was offered to all. We’ll see.
        PS. I was unaware that Mr Ben Gurion was feminine and so by marriage

      • Kris
        June 14, 2015, 2:46 pm

        @yonah fredman:

        Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.

        Thank you, yonah, for providing this information.

        Are you saying that Palestinians must give up justice (the return of what has been stolen from them) in order to have peace?

        Do you think there can be peace without justice?

        Even on an individual level, to make peace with someone you have wronged, you have to acknowledge what you have done, apologize, and try to make amends, don’t you?

      • yonah fredman
        June 14, 2015, 8:38 pm

        Annie Robbins- Regarding the PLO charter. If you think there was no inference regarding expulsion I will remind you of the real gun in Arafat’s holster and the illusion of an olive branch in his hand when he spoke to the UN in 74. If you think the PLO charter was a peaceful kumbaya document, I have a bridge in Brooklyn that’s looking for a new owner. Interested?

        Regarding one state, my own personal view is that the vision of Omar Barghouti and Ali Abunimah will not come true in the next 30 years and if it were to come true it would be awfully bloody and it would be the death of hundreds of thousands that would make Jews flee. It would have nothing to do with Jews leaving because they can’t stand equality. You swallow the one state nonsense of your heroes and tell us that it tastes like cotton candy. their nonsense is nonsense. ask the other barghouti marwan barghouti and he’ll tell you that the one state solution is a mess waiting to happen.

        But aside from the bloody mess of the one state solution that your heroes endorse (“friend of this website” is how i think you referred to Omar Barghouti), if somehow God’s angels were in charge and not a drop of blood was spilled, the living standard would plummet as fast as the life expectancy has plummeted in South Africa since the end of apartheid. A lower living standard would cause people to leave. So there you have it: blood will cause Jewish people to leave or even best case scenario: lower living standard would cause Jewish people to leave. That nonsense of your heroes: the Jews would leave because they wouldn’t be able to tolerate equality is just some more of their malicious lies which you swallow and then regurgitate as truth.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 14, 2015, 9:38 pm

        oh get off your high horse you little lecturing diversion expert.

        If you think the PLO charter was a peaceful kumbaya document, I have a bridge in Brooklyn

        don’t change the subject hot shot. you know perfectly well your wordsmithing/propaganda right here on this very thread claimed BDS, the plo charter, and by extension palestinians and supporters of one state, were calling for the “odious expulsion” of jews from the region of palestine/israel. the very crime zionists perpetrated flipped on it’s head.

        i call you on it and you start lecturing me. in your very own words yonah: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/israeli-valentines-weekend#comment-774686 “You owe your fellow mondoweiss readers an apology for being misleading” for everyone knows this is a far greater deception than merely mistaking if someone said they would or would not ever leave israel. and now you get all hoity toity and pushed out of shape yammering about “bloody mess[es]” and who my heroes are. i’m not impressed in the least. get over yourself and start apologizing since you’re under the delusion you’re in the position of demanding it of others!

        A lower living standard would cause people to leave.

        BWAHHHH, what would the citizens of the little colonialist state do if they had to pay for all the resources they steals from palestine!!! and no free/stolen land for their expansion? let’s throw them a pity party on their way out!!!

      • Annie Robbins
        June 14, 2015, 10:12 pm

        and btw, thanks for admitting A lower living standard would cause people to leave. because yonah, that is what can easily be considered “a predictable effect” of equality in a state where one privileged ethnicity has the benefit of resources (like water) at the expense of another. jews in the region of palestine have become accustomed to their privilege and of course if they had to share for a period of time a lower standard of living (to accommodate an adjustment) would ensue, logically quite naturally so, for a time anyway. given this serves as an answer to my earlier (repeated) question, it’s not only bds that might agree with this “predictive effect”, it is you. something you apparently have in common. still, it’s a far cry from “expulsion” and contrary to your logic (if it can be called that) it’s rather consistent with “Jews leaving because they can’t stand equality” hardly “malicious lies .. swallow[ed] and then regurgitate as truth.”

        and straight from the horse’s mouth too — much appreciated. good day.

      • yonah fredman
        June 14, 2015, 11:08 pm

        Actually Annie I was predicting in this hypothetical future that the living standard will plummet for everybody, Jew and Arab together due to the dysfunction of the two Palestinian parties Hamas and Fatah, both of which couldn’t run a government to save their lives. if they put a Salem Fayad in charge he could, there are talented individuals, but in order to run an economy you have to have democracy and transparency and are you expecting democracy and transparency from Fatah and Hamas?! Don’t make me laugh. They will run Isratine straight into the dirt. These people would make Netanyahu look competent. In south africa’s case the collapse of the life expectancy is due to the plague of Aids, but the collapse of the economy that i am predicting for this alternate history is due to the weakness (allergy to democracy and transparency) of the two Palestinian parties. The incremental changes that you’re talking about would not make much of a difference. i’m not talking about the emigration of a few percent. I’m talking about 10 to 20%, because the economy will tank, not reapportion the privileges, genius, but the economy will tank, because these guys from Fatah and Hamas are the three stooges when it comes to politics. and if you knew anything about politics (you know the facts when Israel is wrong, but if you knew anything about Palestinian politics), you’d admit that it won’t be Barghouti or Abunima or their ilk in charge it will be people like Dahlan and Abbas who know nepotism and not much else and they will run the machine into the dirt.

        But as Steve Forbert used to say, “it isn’t going to be that way.”

        I don’t know how it will play out, I don’t see things continuing the way they are, but you folks who discovered the Middle East on 9/11 are amateurs at analyzing this and your predictions are amateurish. and anyone with any sense would know that this thin slice of society that you are focused on : barghouti and abunimah, are not going to be the ones in charge. just like you couldn’t make heads or tails out of morsi and the brotherhood, out of assad and his weakness, you don’t really know squat about palestine politics or anything about the middle east, except to point out how the west and Israel are wrong. The dysfunction of the Arab political currents, you know nothing about.

        Bibi is leading the players: Palestinians and israelis into a cul de sac, a dead end, a blind alley and something will happen, but not what you imagine. and certainly it won’t have abunimah and omar barghouti in charge. and the sooner that you admit that you are a novice at the prediction game the better. stick to the morality issue. Israel’s policy is wrong. on that you’re right. but your predictions about what’s going to happen, you’re just like a fifteen year old.

      • echinococcus
        June 15, 2015, 12:03 am

        Annie answered Mr Fredman well –from her viewpoint. There are a couple more bones to pick: some more things should be seen in addition to her response.

        Regarding one state, my own personal view is that the vision of Omar Barghouti and Ali Abunimah will not come true in the next 30 years and if it were to come true it would be awfully bloody and it would be the death of hundreds of thousands that would make Jews flee

        You don’t seem up-to-date on these persons’ “vision”. I would agree that it is impossible to establish peacefully because of the carefully cultivated madness of the Herrenvolk masses and the determined suicidal tendencies of all its leaders from the start. Equality before law is seen by the overwhelming majority (Zionist and perhaps also most of Haredi) as worse than death. I would also agree that in such a situation a major, bloody conflagration is sure to be the solvent, provided the Zionists have not completed the genocide of Palestinians by that time.

        It would have nothing to do with Jews leaving because they can’t stand equality

        Allow me to scoff at that Ziologic: the first and last reason of a bloody conflagration is assuredly the Zionist fear of equality with Amalekites –a fate worse than death. So no, it always has everything to do with their not accepting equality. If they consented to be equals, they would have taken down the Jewish dictatorship right away. I mean, please a little world-at-large-linear, Aristotelian logic.

        You swallow the one state nonsense of your heroes and tell us that it tastes like cotton candy

        There’s no nonsense. One state is all there is room for now in Palestine. Your two-state solution, last resort solution of Zionism, has long left the dock. The amicable one-state, to be imposed by some boycott and rolling eyes at the Zionists, is a little out of this world for anyone who knows the Zionists and has observed them for a longish time. The only question left now is, will it be Israel, a Jewish racial-supremacist genocidal dictatorship, or will it be Palestine? If the rearrangement of the powers in the area continues to go against Palestinian aims, of course your gentle compatriots will try to complete the genocide, no matter the international cost. This is also why it is imperative to have a successful BDS as soon as possible, and not a pseudo-BDS to help the Zionists.

        But aside from the bloody mess of the one state solution that your heroes endorse… if somehow God’s angels were in charge and not a drop of blood was spilled, the living standard would plummet as fast as the life expectancy has plummeted in South Africa since the end of apartheid. A lower living standard would cause people to leave. So there you have it: blood will cause Jewish people to leave or even best case scenario: lower living standard would cause Jewish people to leave. That nonsense of your heroes: the Jews would leave because they wouldn’t be able to tolerate equality is just some more of their malicious lies which you swallow and then regurgitate as truth.

        But it is the truth: Ziologic aside, both a depressed living standard in a very theoretical bloodless or realistic bloody solution, and the fear of violence are the direct result of Zionist pigheadedness and messianic mysticism or whatever suicidal nationalistic madness is called nowadays, in seeing equality and democracy as worse than death. Democracy: that is in a nutshell the Zionists’ worse enemy!

        Let me see one Zionist, ONE, that can stand the idea of equality with an Arab and the idea of a secular democracy living together with an Arab majority (like before the Resurgence!). Are you volunteering for examination, Mister Fredman?

        If Palestine wins, I am sure it will offer citizenship to all the ex-Herrenvolk or almost –can see almost no takers as of now.

        Be that as it may, the more the masses are scared and go back to their own countries, or to places like the US that won’t refuse them in the foreseeable future, the less the bloody effect of future regional rearrangements. When the plain people leave, only the totally wallclimbing crazies are left and casualty counts decrease. This is precisely why you should also be supporting BDS, to make them leave.

      • talknic
        June 15, 2015, 12:38 am

        @ yonah fredman ” I will remind you of the real gun in Arafat’s holster and the illusion of an olive branch in his hand when he spoke to the UN in 74″

        Uh huh. Even WikI/Pedia refutes your stupid assertion. If you believe the UN is gonna allow a real gun, even an empty gun, an empty replica gun or even an empty toy gun, onto the podium, there are numerous bridges you can acquire, very cheap. Very very cheap!

        All you’ve done is remind us of how supporters of Israel’s illegal activities in non-Israeli territory are really stupid liars

        ” If you think the PLO charter was a peaceful kumbaya document”

        Why would it be? It was written whilst at war, for war. It does however have a caveat the Hasbarristers never cite

        Article Thirty-One: “As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly.” (The Tried – verse 8).

        I have a bridge in Brooklyn that’s looking for a new owner. Interested?”

        Nope . Like Israelis who’ve been sold land in territory “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”, if you were stupid enough to buy a bridge in Brooklyn …

      • can of worms
        June 15, 2015, 6:29 am

        @YF –“In south africa’s case the collapse of the life expectancy is due to the plague of Aids, but the collapse of the economy that i am predicting for this alternate history [1ss] is due to the weakness (allergy to democracy and transparency) of the two Palestinian parties.”

        “Yonah Fredman”, the economic gaps in South Africa are not due to HIV/AIDS, they are due to neoliberal policies that closed their eyes to AIDS and did nothing, and more to the point they did nothing to address a legacy of hypersegregation and economic inequality. It was neoliberals (in the manner of Fayyad whom you extol here) whose economic program widened the gaps. These mistakes are what we should take lessons from. And in the U.S. too: when they finally ended Jim Crow they never compensated the victims nor half-addressed the legacies of hyper-segregation. Those are the lessons we take to heart. When Isra-Palestine is desegregated it will be with compensation, restitution &affirmative action to address the legacies of hyper-segregation.

        (pssst…. In case you didn’t notice, it’s the Palestinian people who are teaching the ‘Jewish’ Israelis about what democracy is and isn’t, hardly the other way around!)

      • echinococcus
        June 15, 2015, 12:50 pm

        Mr Fredman says

        you folks who discovered the Middle East on 9/11 are amateurs at analyzing this and your predictions are amateurish. and anyone with any sense would know that this thin slice of society that you are focused on : barghouti and abunimah, are not going to be the ones in charge. just like you couldn’t make heads or tails out of morsi and the brotherhood, out of assad and his weakness, you don’t really know squat about palestine politics or anything about the middle east, except to point out how the west and Israel are wrong. The dysfunction of the Arab political currents, you know nothing about

        Don’t you just love it?
        We’ll just avoid going into this person’s geographical origin, cultural connections, history of life in various countries of the region, country of residence, country of allegiance, mastery of languages, quality of sources etc., measured against the text above. Perhaps this will avoid the censorship one gets with even one innocent joke that someone, somewhere, finds potentially offensive. A big exception seems to be made for the Fredmans of the world. Not that I want him censored, though. He keeps us on our toes.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2015, 4:54 pm

        ” it’s abandonment from the (horror! or fear) of the prospects of equality.”

        Equality? Many, many Israelis would be afraid of prosecution for things they did while “following orders”. They might very well wish to leave, leaving as small a trail as possible.

  11. traintosiberia
    June 9, 2015, 7:46 pm

    Boycotting Saudi or Kuwait or Bahrain would be a great idea. Boycotting Egypt will be a great idea too. But before we jump to the innuendo of failures to do so, lets remember that Egypt ‘s Sisi was the product of Israeli manipulation and American silence. Lets not forget that Israel demanded from US that Saudi regime wouldn’t fall from any internal Arab Spring when there was a fear of that happening .
    Before boycott starts it is usually discussed in UN . BDS stems from failure of UN. UN also failed to condemn and take action against Saudi for incursion against Yemen and for sending army to Bahrain . Bahrain was not censured by UN for atrocities against Shis. Iran tried but didn’t succeed . Mr Bernirt should excoriate the UN, US,and Israel and should start BDS movement against SA, Bahrain and Israel for cozying up to them .
    The other argument that other countries do it is invalid . Burma,Cuba,Iran,Sudan,Syria,Iraq have been under UN sanctions for some of the behaviors that Israel has engaged in over the years. So no one is selective here when demanding same set of responses to Israel. BDS is mild rap on the knuckles .

    • Walid
      June 9, 2015, 11:46 pm

      “Boycotting Saudi or Kuwait or Bahrain would be a great idea.” (traintosiberia)

      Not really, yesterday’s chatter at the Herzliya “annual” had senior Israeli officials hinting at possible joining of military forces of Israel with those of certain Arab countries to take on Iran. Those that you mentioned as possible targets of boycotts are the very country involved in the chatter. Last week it was all smiles and handshakes between Israeli piranha Dore Gold and a former general of Saudi intelligence.

      • gamal
        June 10, 2015, 12:57 pm

        not only that but Bahrain is the site of a new UK military base, if only the US et al would boycott us all it would be a great blessing,

        Last time i was in Egypt I and a young female relative went to buy a Kuffiya at the shop was an American college kid scoffing at the poor nylon facsimiles, we were embarrassed and I lied “they are better quality than we get in the UK” , “better” he scoffed, the owner came out and offered my girl 20% if she got me to buy a leather bag, she looked at me and I answered in the local lingo, “Ma’alish” he demurred and retired back inside, we trudged home depressed but laughing, she newly wed and pregnant has to live in the city of delegates, none of them will take a penny from me “In family” they say “there is no money” even though they insist on giving me the 4k Egyptian pounds my land earns annually, her father is my Akeel or agent and extracts my rent from the farmers, which is not easy, they make me take it, we would all boycott ourselves if we could.

        please boycott us please, what harm could it do.

        “Britain to build first permanent Middle East military base in four decades”

        http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/06/britain-first-middle-eastern-military-base-bahrain

      • Elliot
        June 10, 2015, 5:22 pm

        Yonah: “Elliot- I am glad that your conception of the future one state is so benevolent if only the US truly wills it.”

        Nothing will happen in Israel/Palestine without the U.S. willing it and paying for it. There’s $4.7b a year and counting involved. I think a one state solution has as much chance of success as anything else with or without the U.S.
        You cling to the current impossible situation because no one can give you ironclad guarantees about the future. That’s not a good enough reason to make life hell for others. And it’s not as if the current situation is guaranteed to last either.

      • yonah fredman
        June 10, 2015, 5:33 pm

        Elliot- The US Congress and presidency and electorate is nowhere near your state of mind regarding a one state rather than a two state solution. If it were near then your talk would be something other than academic. I cling to reality. I am glad to hear your ideas that are unrelated to the world in which we live. I love ideas. Keep them coming. But when you confuse reality with ideas, you sound like me looking at a map of the US in the fall of 72 and figuring out a McGovern victory. Not going to happen.

        I cannot go to my friends and family and offer them the plan that you believe in when I don’t believe in it. I like Caroline Glick’s idea for it is an idea rather than the status quo. I am intrigued by a UN SC resolution because it is an idea rather than the status quo.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2015, 6:00 pm

        “I cannot go to my friends and family and offer them the plan that you believe in when I don’t believe in it.”

        Yonah, your delusions of grandeur are getting the better of you. Who is asking you to offer a plan, or to believe in it. Who the hell do you think you are?

  12. Elliot
    June 9, 2015, 7:54 pm

    Thanks for all the great comments exposing Beinart’s misuse of “double standards.”

    Beinart: “If you’re talking about boycotting Israeli behavior in the West Bank and Gaza, because of the fundamental oppression that exists there, but not boycott anything else in the Arab Middle East, I’m with you.”

    I don’t buy his distinction between Israel proper and the West Bank. Life on the West Bank is better than under ISIS: there are no mass beheadings, blowing up of landmark archeological sites, wholesale rapes and so on.
    Beinart’s distinction is artificial and serves his own liberal Zionism.

    Also, the folks who say they are ok with BDS against settlements usually don’t follow through. Rabbi Rick Jacobs, the leader of the largest Jewish denomination in the U.S. said he backed targeted BDS and then he led the attack on the Presbyterian church for doing just that.

  13. RoHa
    June 9, 2015, 9:00 pm

    One aspect of the double standards argument that I find particularly annoying is that those who deploy it ignore the protests made against the “other wrong”.

    The standard form is:

    1. There are protests against Israeli conduct.
    2. There are no protests against (e.g.) FGM.
    3. The only possible reason for this difference is anti-Semitism.
    4. Therefore, the protests are motivated by anti-Semitism.
    5. Therefore, the protests should be rejected.

    The holes in this argument are such that only the totally logic-impaired Ziocaine (TM) addict could fail to drive a truck through them.

    My specific grouse is against premise 2. In every case I have seen, the “other wrong” mentioned is one that has been met with continual, strong protest, and the person making the argument is in a position to know that. The premise is a lie.

    • WH
      June 10, 2015, 2:58 am

      It gets even better when Netanyahu claims that all the world is against Israel, yet does nothing about Syria or Iran. Those countries and many others are subject to sanctions, and America has given material support to those who militarily attack the Assad regime! I rarely hear people call him out for such absurdities outside the anti-Zionist scene.

    • just
      June 10, 2015, 9:34 am

      +1, RoHa!

      +1, WH (you can add Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, etc. to the list!)

  14. Qualtrough
    June 10, 2015, 4:38 am

    Regarding this hasbara ‘double standard’ tactic, we should throw it back in their face every time they criticize Arabs, an Arab country, Palestinians, Iran, etc. by asking them why are they focusing on them when there are horrible things going on in Africa, Central American, the USA, etc. ? Why the focus on Muslims when there are horrible things going on in other parts of the world that they have said nothing about?

  15. Talkback
    June 10, 2015, 4:59 am

    Beinhart: “But if you say you’re gong to boycott Israel inside the Green Line, where Palestinians have the right to vote, are represented in the Knesset, live under the same legal system, are represented on the Supreme Court, but you but you have no problem with a whole series of states where everyone has far fewer rights than that, that seems to me genuinely problematic.”

    ROFL. I’m sure that Peter is not talking about the expelled. denationalized and disenfrenchised Nonjews living in refugee camps “for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them” (Crime of Apartheid)

    Now, Rhodesia and Apartheid SA were “destroyed” (Hasbara term). So what whole series of states is he talking about?

    This is as perfect example of intellectual dishonesty. It’s not only about disrimination or violating human rights. It’s about its purpose. And the fact that Israel allows a manageable amount of Nonjewish citizens and voters, but only as long as it is compatible with its Apartheid only proves the point.

  16. charlesfrith
    June 10, 2015, 6:34 am

    Brave question to ask. Well done.

  17. Irfan
    June 10, 2015, 7:46 am

    Beinart: “But there is absolutely no such effort going on in Saudi Arabia or any of the Gulf States for instance. ”

    That’s not true. The Gulf Labor Artist Coalition is organizing a boycott in/of Abu Dhabi. It’s small, but it exists. It started in 2010.

    • Irfan
      June 10, 2015, 8:02 am

      Clarification: the campaign for the boycott started in 2010, the boycott was made public in 2011.

    • Annie Robbins
      June 14, 2015, 10:29 pm

      Irfan, could you link to it? much appreciated.

  18. just
    June 10, 2015, 8:53 am

    Beinart’s latest:

    “Does Sheldon Adelson really want to defeat BDS?
    Or is he just using the fight to isolate progressive Zionists, and push the Jewish world further right?

    I don’t believe Sheldon Adelson is this dumb. It’s kindergarten-obvious that the casino billionaire’s new anti-BDS crusade will not only fail but will quite possibly prove counterproductive.

    Everyone who understands the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement knows that its recruits are progressives, and that what tips them toward BDS is despair that there seems no other way to end Israel’s immoral, undemocratic control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (even though the BDS movement itself wants more than that).

    Enter Adelson, one of the most famous anti-progressives in America, and a man determined to ensure that Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza never ends. To lead the anti-BDS summit he convened last weekend, Adelson recruited Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, a former Republican candidate for Congress last seen giving an award to Ted Cruz and personally insulting National Security Adviser Susan Rice.

    Boteach invited right-wing organizations opposed to the two-state solution like Christians United for Israel and the Zionist Organization of America, along with the David Horowitz Freedom Center, which recently declared that U.S. President Barack Obama “has gone back and forth between Christianity and Islam like a philanderer in a bar” and accused the Black Lives Matter movement, which was sparked by the 2012 shooting death of African American teenager Trayvon Martin, of being “one of the most destructive, hateful, racist movements in living memory.”

    But Boteach didn’t invite J Street or the New Israel Fund, which oppose BDS but also enjoy some credibility on the left for their work opposing the occupation. To top it off, Boteach announced that the new anti-BDS fighters he and Adelson plan to fund will be called Campus Maccabees.

    You can’t make this stuff up. Calling Zionism a discriminatory ideology that privileges Jews over non-Jews, BDS proponents generally speak in the universalistic language of full equality irrespective of religion or ethnicity. (Some are more sincere about this rhetoric than others.) Into this debate, Boteach reportedly wants to insert a group of “Maccabees,” students named after the second-century B.C.E. religious zealots who not only rebelled against Greek rule, but also demanded that Jews reject any interaction with foreign cultures.

    If Adelson is determined to confirm the BDS movement’s claim that Israel will never allow a Palestinian state of its own and that Zionism is an ideology incompatible with universalistic, liberal principles, he’s off to a terrific start.

    But what if Adelson’s goal isn’t defeating BDS at all? What if he’s simply using the anti-BDS cause to empower himself and his right-wing agenda? If that’s the case, his actions don’t look so dumb at all.”…

    the rest @ http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.660526

    • echinococcus
      June 10, 2015, 9:38 am

      Beinart is so predictable. Again trying to suggest that his “liberal” Zionism is any different than the Yahoo’s.

      If Adelson is determined to confirm the BDS movement’s claim that Israel will never allow a Palestinian state of its own and that Zionism is an ideology incompatible with universalistic, liberal principles, he’s off to a terrific start

      Sure, because Beinart agreed to… what? A fully sovereign Palestinian state with an army and all? In your dreams. He has the same policy as all before: Bantustans with puppets and domination.

      As for the thought that Beinart’s Jewish supremacist state, “merely” based on preferential importation of master-race invaders, would NOT be “incompatible with universalistic, liberal principles”, I’ve been laughing non-stop since reading this.
      What a complete buffoon.

      • Mooser
        June 10, 2015, 12:17 pm
      • Sibiriak
        June 15, 2015, 4:55 am

        echinococcus: Sure, because Beinart agreed to… what? A fully sovereign Palestinian state with an army and all? In your dreams.

        ——————

        Actually Beinart does support a Palestinian state having its own army.

      • echinococcus
        June 15, 2015, 12:10 pm

        Read him again. It’s “friendly”, controlled and non-threatening…

    • Citizen
      June 10, 2015, 3:12 pm

      Adelson does not look at his goal as either/or; what’s your point?

  19. pabelmont
    June 10, 2015, 9:44 am

    A word for Richard Cohen.

    My fortune — be it misfortune or good fortune — since 1971 has been to live and work in largely Jewish neighborhoods and workplaces. I thought it was natural, but friends have told me that far from being natural or normal in the USA it was exceptional. These friends have told me that antisemitism is still the norm in the USA today, even if not as vicious as in past times. Perhaps they are right.

    In New York City, where I live today and in my old neighborhood in Lexington, MA, , there are Jews everywhere and this is not remarkable. I imagine that matters are much the same in Washington DC and some other places. The major “news” outlets that I encounter (NYT, NPR, WNYC) seem heavily Jewish. The universities I have attended and visited also seem heavily Jewish these days.

    As to that I make no complaint. Perhaps what I am seeing is the result of “meritocracy” in action after an end was made to much (but not all) antisemitism in the USA. In other words, maybe I am not seeing “Jewish privilege” at work at all (other than the normal workings of “old boy networks”) but, rather, the normal working of a “meritocracy”. It would seem that “merit” not to mention “interest” among Jews has gone from a focus on classical music, now taken over by East Asian immigrants, to business, finance, and media. There’s a lot less preparatory work and a lot more money in those fields than in classical music, I’m sure.

    What galls me about the enormous Jewish presence in the “news” media, is that the Jews I’ve mentioned seem — like their non-Jewish colleagues, be it also said — to be practicing, proselytizing, fiercely-protective Zionists, adherents to the rule that Israel must be protected from criticism no matter what it does.

    This heavy Zionist presence in “news” media (the quotes on “news” to call attention to the general suppression of news about Israel/Palestine) has persuaded me that antisemitism is no longer an issue in the USA. Jews, it seems, have triumphed. Jews occupy high places in government, in business, in education, and in “news” media. And the Jewish presence in the media and universities slants (or so it often seems) the news and teaching to accustom the American public to a greater acceptance of Jews and Israel than might otherwise have been the case.

    Could be that I’m both right and wrong. Could be that some Jews have arrived in places where antisemitism no longer plays a role and others are effectively and daily subject to antisemitism. Could be that Richard Cohen, though himself comfortable, sees and understands the continuing presence of antisemitism in the USA.

    But maybe he’s remembering what his father told him rather than observing the current scene.

  20. righteousgentile65
    June 10, 2015, 1:12 pm

    To what Yousef Munayyer says below in response to Peter Beinhart I would add that the authoritarian Arab regimes make no pretense to democracy whereas Israel does.

    And Israel receives more US military and economic aid than any other country in the world and all of the African countries combined.

    Of course the US should also end aid to Egypt and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf kingdoms, but Israel is our own little pampered pitbull.

  21. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    June 10, 2015, 2:18 pm

    I seem to recall reading somewhere – probably right here on MW – that not so long ago our friends the ‘liberal Zionists’ actually encouraged boycott of Israel. That was part of their ”Oh, gosh you know I’d really support the Palestinians if only they’d adopt non-violent resistance” hypocrisy. Of course, their idea of ‘boycott’ was similar to Beinart’s, if not even weaker – a symbolic, slap on the wrist style of thing which would do no harm to Israel, but would allow them to feel even smugger about themselves.

    Now, however, with BDS poised to actually make a difference, we’re back to the old ‘singling out Israel’, ”anti semitism’, ‘but what about……’ nonsense. Which just confirms what I’ve long believed – ‘liberal Zionists’ don’t want any resistance – violent or non violent – to Israel. At all. The only ‘resistance’ they approve of is the one which does zero harm to Israel, ie, no resistance at all. What a bunch of craven hypocrites they really are.

    • Citizen
      June 10, 2015, 3:21 pm

      Many states have been subjected to sanctions for doing what Israel does every day. That part is always left out of the counting of UN sanctions against Israel, none of which have been approved by the US; instead, US has vetoed them all, over 41 of them.

  22. amigo
    June 10, 2015, 6:28 pm

    Where is seafoid.

    It seems as if it is weeks since we read a post from him.Does anyone know how to search the archives to check when he last posted.

    • just
      June 10, 2015, 6:39 pm

      I miss seafoid terribly.

      Best that I can tell, the last post was May 3, 2015 at 6:28 pm…

      Too long ago. ;-(

      • Annie Robbins
        June 10, 2015, 6:45 pm

        it does seem really strange. i hope he comes back soon. i miss him too.

      • amigo
        June 10, 2015, 6:58 pm

        “Best that I can tell, the last post was May 3, 2015 at 6:28 pm…” just

        Thats what I found also.

        Let,s hope seafoid,s “last post” is not for a long time , eh.

      • just
        June 10, 2015, 7:02 pm

        No kidding, amigo!

        I only hope that he’s on a lovely vacation somewhere, enjoying himself with happy abandon!

      • Kris
        June 10, 2015, 7:09 pm

        I miss seafoid, too.

        Annie, Mondoweiss does have all of our email addresses. Would it be against the rules for one of the editors to email seafoid and tell him we miss him and hope he’s well and happy?

  23. diasp0ra
    June 11, 2015, 7:55 am

    I seriously cannot wrap my head around Beinart’s differentiation between settlement and non-settlement Israel. Does he perhaps think that the settlements are self perpetuating? That they declared themselves areas of national priority and receive untold subsidies and grants from themselves? Do they have their own armies, and ministries giving them legitimacy and support through massive investments in industry and agriculture and education?

    The majority of construction within Israel is performed by the private sector, however, when it comes to construction in the settlements this is not the case. Construction in settlements is undertaken by the the Construction and Housing Ministry as well as the Israel Land Administration. This greatly reduces the cost of purchasing a house and offers much easier purchase procedures and payment, these houses are superior in both quality and size compared to a house with a similar price inside Israel.

    The benefits related to education in settlements is also a major attraction, be it for students or for teachers, or any other worker in the education sector in general. It is estimated that approximately 25% of all employed persons in settlements work in education, which is approximately double the national average within Israel of about 13% of workers in education.

    Settlers are a priority when it comes to receiving university scholarships, they also receive between 90 to 100 percent coverage of their transportation costs to institutes of education, their matriculation examination fees are also covered by the state. In addition to this, the school day as well as the school year is extended in the settlements beyond that within Israel.

    When it comes to industry, the Israeli government has spent a good deal of effort and money in making settlements in the West Bank an attractive prospect for investment in industry and the establishment of factories. There currently exist 17 industrial parks near settlements in the West Bank, the vast majority of which were established in the 1990s with the support of the Israeli Ministry of Industry, Commerce and Employment.

    According to the Adva Center, and based on a Hebrew study carried out by specialist Dror Tzaban for Peace Now on industrial parks near settlements, it was found that between 1997 and 2001, the Israeli government has spent 22% (!) of its total industrial parks expenditure on these settlement parks.

    Being areas of national priority, settlements are also eligible for grants of up to 25% to establish agricultural enterprises, as well as other subsidies regarding agricultural tourist projects, such as vineyards, as well as tax benefits on profits.

    This is just the tip of the iceberg of how the Israeli government directly and indirectly supports the settlement enterprise in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights. Beinart wants to come across as a specialist, or an expert but nobody that knows anything about settlements could argue that boycotting them alone without addressing who builds and supports them could work. Unless of course, it’s just a smoke screen.

    And as usual with every exchange he reveals how much liberal zionism is an oxymoron.

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      June 12, 2015, 6:02 am

      Agree 100%. Boycotting ‘the settlements’ but not Israel itself makes absolutely no sense – as far as Israel is concerned, the ‘settlements’ are a part of Israel. It’s just another example of how ‘liberal Zionists’ support non-violent resistance – provided it doesn’t harm Israel at all. Boycotting only the ‘settlements’ amounts to a slap on the wrist, at the very most.

      • CigarGod
        June 12, 2015, 8:18 am

        As an aside, is there a word that gives a better return than settlement?
        Does it describe what they really are, well enough?
        What about Colony? Colonialism does describe the practice in most areas, I think.
        Just thinking.

  24. talknic
    June 15, 2015, 1:00 am

    @ yonah fredman “I will remind you of the real gun in Arafat’s holster and the illusion of an olive branch in his hand when he spoke to the UN in 74″

    I’m betting if no one fed the Ziotrolls here they’d think they’re on a roll and their lies would become even more outrageous

    • oldgeezer
      June 15, 2015, 1:08 am

      @talknic

      I’d take that bet but you’re right. In all fairness what else can they do when the objective facts are not on their side but to lie or fabricate alternate realities which we all supposedly know would exist and where we all supposedly know what the outcomes are.

      Fiction. Pure fiction. Perhaps a touch of pure hysteria and psychosis.

      • talknic
        June 15, 2015, 2:07 am

        Or a Hasbara pay check. I don’t believe they make fools of themselves voluntarily

    • CigarGod
      June 15, 2015, 4:43 am

      It’s already, gibberish. Can it get worse?

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