Israeli ambassador flings Nazi label at Israeli leaders, after latest authoritarian step

Israel/Palestine
on 210 Comments

In Peace Now’s daily news digest, this quote tops the list today:

Quote of the day:
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are under attack and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”
–A quote by Nazi war criminal Hermann Goering, posted by Israeli Ambassador to Switzerland, Yigal Caspi, on Facebook, following the passing of the NGO bill.**

Yigal Caspi, image on twitter

Yigal Caspi, image on twitter

Caspi has removed the quotation. He clearly intended the comment as a warning to Israeli leaders. He is now under investigation for the statement. The NGO bill is a new law that forces leftleaning human-rights groups that receive substantial funds from overseas to wear labels when they come to the Israeli Knesset. Peace Now continues, “Another hot topic today was the comparisons to Nazis.”

Hebrew University lecturer Dr. Ofer Cassif wrote on Facebook that Justice Minister Shaked is ‘Neo-Nazi scum’ and told Army Radio afterward, “I think it’s fair to compare Israel to Germany in the 1930s, and not to the years of genocide.” Cassif pointed to the Im Tirtzu video and Shaked’s NGO law. The article in Ynet noted that the Facebook posts come in the wake of the passing of the NGO bill, but it doesn’t mention that the bill requires the (mostly left-wing) NGO representatives to wear a special badge when they visit the Knesset committees to indicate that they receive more than 50% of their contributions from foreign states. Cassif shared on Facebook the post by his colleague Professor Amiram Goldblum, who sharply criticized Shaked for not revealing that she received ‘blood money’ contributions from a Jewish Belgian donor who is now in jail for selling arms to rebels in Sierra Leone. Private donations are not required to be revealed by the bill. Cassif was not alone in his comparison of Israel’s right-wing government to the Nazis. Israeli Ambassador to Switzerland, Yigal Caspi, posted a quote by a Nazi war criminal that described how fascist governments get their people to follow them, by “denouncing the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.” Caspi added: “We’re on the right path…” Now, the ambassador faces punishment by the Foreign Ministry. Oddly, the article by Yedioth’s Itamar Eichner did not mention the context of the posting of the quote: the government’s approval of the NGO bill that labels left-wing Israeli human rights organizations.

Let’s be clear: anyone on the American left who used Nazi analogies for Israel was shunned for doing so, but Israeli leaders throw the Nazi stuff around readily. (For good reason; we all know that victims model their abuser when they gain any power.)

The Nazi charges of course go to the treatment of Palestinians. The NGOs all care about Palestinians. In its news list, Peace Now also mentions the latest failure in the investigation of the Duma murderers, Jewish zealots who torched a sleeping Palestinian family in occupied territory last summer. (Peace Now is virtually alone among liberal Zionist groups in recognizing the significance of the Duma murders as evidence of lawlessness, racism, and the fear among Palestinians.)

Many friends are saying that Israel is cracking up. “The end,” “Imploding,” “It’s over,” are two comments I’ve heard in the last day or two. Even J Street seems rattled (“deeply concerned and disappointed”). New Yorker editor David Remnick just got back from Jerusalem and said on the radio this morning that the situation is “tragic” and that Israel bears the greater share of responsibility for the failure of peace talks.

This crisis has long been evident to Palestinians. The knife attacks are of course a symptom of their loss of any faith in the many promises of freedom they have been given. Now the questions are: How long can Israel play out this crisis, as yet another burp in the managed-conflict model of persecution. And having long said that the status quo is unsustainable, will American leaders at last take a stand against apartheid and colonization? Who will speak up here, and show real leadership? Bernie? (And, to be parochial: how many secular American Jews will openly take on their parents and say what they believe in their hearts, that Jewish nationalism, the idea of a “Jewish democracy” established on lands belonging largely to others, is a snare and a delusion?)

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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210 Responses

  1. HarryLaw
    December 29, 2015, 11:46 am

    Where is all this going to end up? A state comprising 75% of people of Jewish origin and 25% non Jewish should not be called “a Jewish state”. But lets be charitable and say that within the recognized borders of the ’67’ state of Israel there exists a Jewish majority and that such a majority could be maintained for the foreseeable future. This of course should not be a Jewish state but the latest report from Peace now should ring some alarm bells in the US and Europe
    Israeli settler watchdog Peace Now is warning in a new report that the Israeli Housing Ministry is seeking a massive series of new settlement expansions cutting across all sections of the West Bank, totaling 55,548 new housing units, including two new settlements.

    The new settlements would be in the E1 area, and would further divide the remaining Palestinian parts of the occupied West Bank. The possibility of building in the E1 has caused considerable concern that it would effectively prevent a contiguous Palestinian state.
    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/12/28/peace-now-israel-plans-another-55000-west-bank-settlement-units/
    It would appear the Israelis are going for the one state solution, without Palestinians being allowed to vote of course. Or do they have more evil intent?

    • Krauss
      December 29, 2015, 1:50 pm

      You make one fundamental error. You assume there is any distinction between the WB and “minor” Israel.

      As Israel’s tuffle with Brazil shows, they don’t make that distinction. Why should we?

      In Greater Israel(or Greater Palestine, if you’d like), it’s about 50/50 and the Palestinians are growing faster. Yes, I count Gaza too because when Israel has a level of control where it can even restrict your calorie count then you essentially control the place.

      Your link to antiwar was fascinating. I’m sure they’ll get away with it. They have so far. And we can also be sure that “liberal” Zionists will keep claiming that the 2SS is still possible even after those 55,000 settlement units.

      • rosross
        December 30, 2015, 7:41 pm

        Gaza is a concentration camp in Occupied Palestine. Only Israeli propaganda pretends it is something separate.

        In reality, the only potentially legal borders, although not yet tested in law, for Israel, remain the UN Mandate and everything else is Occupied Palestine.

    • JWalters
      December 29, 2015, 6:02 pm

      ” Or do they have more evil intent?”

      It looks like they’re provoking the world into war. Who benefits?

    • rosross
      December 30, 2015, 6:09 pm

      You can have a national or racial origin but you cannot have a religious origin. All of us in fact are of atheist or agnostic origin since all religions were invented.

      When you convert to Judaism you do not change race or nationality. When you drop Judiasm or convert to another religion you do not change race or nationality. This applies to all religions since religions do not constitute, race, nation, people. All religions take converts and Judaism is no exception, neither is it to forced conversion and so Judaism, like all religions, comprises all races and dozens of nationalities, probably hundreds.

      More to the point, most Israelis who call themselves Jewish are not in any true sense since they are non-practising or lapsed. There is no such thing as a secular or atheist Jew, Christian, Moslem, Hindu etc., it is utterly impossible, so those Israelis who call themselves atheist or secular Jews are either not Jewish or they should classify themselves as lapsed, or non-practising Jews.

      The attempt to define Jews as a literal people, beyond the religious metaphor used by many religions, was invented by Zionism as a ploy to ‘up the numbers’ in Occupied Palestine, to disenfranchise the indigenous Palestinians on the basis that Europeans were racially superior and therefore a European who could dredge up a grandparent, great-grandparent or perhaps more, who once practised Judaism, was racially superior to any Palestinian.

      One thing the Zionists picked up from the Nazis was elitist racism.

      One thing which needs to be consistently corrected is the delusional fantasy that Judaism is anything more than a religion.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 30, 2015, 7:06 pm

        The attempt to define Jews as a literal people, beyond the religious metaphor used by many religions, was invented by Zionism as a ploy to ‘up the numbers’ in Occupied Palestine

        i think this is a problematic statement beginning with the idea of a “literal people”. the second, the idea that it was “invented by Zionism”. it’s more likely the idea of jews as a people came about when the idea of peoplehood came about, which was prior to zionism. there are a lot of jews who think of themselves as a people, some who do not.

        the “beyond the religious metaphor used by many religions” also doesn’t apply because jews, both secular and religious, have generally recognize both as being jewish (unlike other religions). i know you’ve got different views on this than lots of people, but i don’t think that kind of theorizing matters much given you’re not jewish. it’s not for me to define who a jew is and they can’t seem to come up w/a concise definition themselves that they all agree on anyway.

        Zionism abuses the notion,concept and/or belief of jewish peoplehood as a ploy to ‘up the numbers’ in Occupied Palestine. that much i do believe.

      • rosross
        December 30, 2015, 8:03 pm

        @ Annie Robbins,

        Why is it problematic? Unless we agree that all religions have a right to take religious metaphor of their unity, as people, nation etc., and therefore have a right to claim land where their religion confers importance, then there is no case for Jews as a people. Either all religions constitute a people or none do.

        And since converting to Judaism or dropping the religion does not change race or nationality, pretty clearly, the people factor does not exist beyond religious metaphor or culture. But that applies to all religions.

        There is a Moslem culture and a Hindu culture and various Christian cultures. In addition, a Catholic in Malawi is culturally very different to a Catholic in Ireland or Australia and a Jew in India is very different to a Jew in London. The shared aspect is the religion but even there the commonalities are limited and apply to all religions.

        Many groups, religious and not, talked of themselves as a ‘people’ from ancient times but that does not make it true in any literal sense. I have absolutely no issue with any group considering itself in this way, until they try to make it literal and then it is only an issue when that literal concept is pushed to deny the rights of others.

        Palestine has been colonised by some members of the Jewish religion and many who are not Jewish in any true sense and have not been, at times for generations. But they call themselves Jewish because it plays into the belief that simply having an ancestor who practised the religion, makes you a member of the religion.

        That is patently ridiculous since there are many people who can find Jewish, Anglican, Baptist, Lutheran, etc. ancestors, and yet for whom the religion is no longer relevant because it was dropped generations ago.

        Religion cannot be handed down racially or genetically. Jews, like all religions did and do take converts and comprise all races and dozens of nationalities.

        The concept of a secular Jew, a religious impossibility actually, is a recent innovation and came out of Zionism, an atheist ‘offshoot’ of Judaism, and another religious impossibility.

        If you had suggested 100 years ago to a Jewish family that you were a secular or atheist Jew they would have thought you were mad. They would have considered you to be a non-practising Jew but a member of the religion all the same.

        It is for everyone to define what a religious label is when that religious label is used to disenfranchise others.

        I am not Jewish but I am not Jewish because my ancestors gave up the religion. Many of my relatives are. I am not Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Anglican, Greek or Russian Orthodox because my ancestors also gave up those religions.

        It is because of my very mixed religious ancestry I know that Jews are not a people beyond religious metaphor.

        It is for all of us to define what a Jew is when that label is misused to subjugate the Palestinians. Patently , without the colonisation of Palestine, supposedly in the name of Judaism, by mainly non-practising Jews, no-one would actually care if Jews considered themselves a people, called themselves a people, believed they were a people. etc.

        But, the reality of the occupation and colonisation of Palestine, founded on the delusional belief that Jews constitute a people, makes it imperative that the definition of Jews as a people is questioned. As things stand, someone like me can go and live in Israel and a Palestinian, whose ancestors spent seven generations living in a home in Jerusalem, cannot. That is why defining what a Jew is remains a key to resolving this injustice and if Jews don’t want to do it, then it will be done for them and, for the sake of Palestine, must be done.

        I do not see how the issue of ‘what is Jewish’ can be overlooked when it is the core issue at work in first of all the colonisation of Palestine and, more importantly, the egregious injustice of occupation and apartheid.

        Without the distorted concept of ‘what is Jewish’ the colonists would not have been found in Russia and elsewhere and, more importantly, there would not be the bigoted notion that someone who has an ancestor who once practised Judaism, no matter how long ago, is superior to someone whose ancestors have not practised Judaism – which is what it amounts to.

        In truth, the concept of ‘what is Jewish’ is I believe a cover for the worst kind of bigotry – the belief that Anglo/Europeans are superior to others and that Palestinians are inferior to the Anglo/Europeans who colonised them. The concept of being Jewish is no more than a racist ploy and that is why it needs to be dealt with and dismissed.

        When there is justice for Palestine and freedom for the Palestinians, I doubt anyone will care what Jews consider themselves to be.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 30, 2015, 8:40 pm

        Why is it problematic?

        i already told you, none of what i said you addressed tho, so why do it again?

        to begin with, what’s a “literal people”. you seem to think it’s limited to religion, which it isn’t, some people think it’s related to ethnicity, some a region. what’s the point of discussing it if you don’t address anything i wrote in my response to you?

        also, i forgot i wasn’t responding to roha (when i wrote earlier “i know you’ve got different views on this than lots of people”), who claims jews don’t exist (most of those kinds of comments don’t get published tho, since they are different than debating whether jews are ‘a people’).

        and what’s this: The concept of a secular Jew, a religious impossibility actually, is a recent innovation and came out of Zionism

        so your claim assumes there were no jews who didn’t believe in god or questioned god existence before zionism came along. i find that idea fantastical.

      • Mooser
        December 30, 2015, 9:49 pm

        “there are a lot of jews who think of themselves as a people, some who do not.”

        Right, but you see for many, many years, Gentiles weighed in on the you-are-a-people side, and could make it stick.
        And that makes a lot of difference. Of course, they don’t do that much anymore, resulting in a great deal of disunity in Judaism.

      • tony greenstein
        December 30, 2015, 11:44 pm

        I disagree. When you convert to Judaism you can certainly change your race. Why?

        Because race, like religion, is invented. Indeed I’d go further. There is no such thing, scientifically as race. It is a political and social construct. At least religious practice, which was effectively the Nazi definition of ‘race’ was grounded in fact. The racial biological definition as to who was Jewish or Aryan was based on religious practice in the end. Because it was impossible to define being Jewish in relation to an actual blood or genetic difference. Hence all those ludicrous attempts by the Nazis to find a ‘scientific’ basis to race by measuring the cranium and brain size etc. I say the Nazis but I should include Arthur Ruppin, the father of racial sciences and sociology and much else in Palestine.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 1:12 am

        The racial biological definition as to who was Jewish or Aryan was based on religious practice in the end.

        that would depend on who you talk to. because some rabbis seem to think it has more to do with who your mother is. and last i heard nazis were not too concerned about the fate of non practicing jews.

        and check this out: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/

        Secularism has a long tradition in Jewish life in America, and most U.S. Jews seem to recognize this: 62% say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, while just 15% say it is mainly a matter of religion. Even among Jews by religion, more than half (55%) say being Jewish is mainly a matter of ancestry and culture, and two-thirds say it is not necessary to believe in God to be Jewish.

        and mooser, re “Gentiles weighed in on the you-are-a-people side, and could make it stick.

        yes i know. this is one reason i mentioned earlier:

        but i don’t think that kind of theorizing matters much given you’re not jewish. it’s not for me to define who a jew is and they can’t seem to come up w/a concise definition themselves that they all agree on anyway.

      • Sibiriak
        December 31, 2015, 1:35 am

        rosross: It is for all of us to define what a Jew is when that label is misused to subjugate the Palestinians

        ——————-

        In the final analysis, whatever the logical/factual merits of your arguments (which I dispute) , I believe it’s hugely counterproductive politically for anti-Zionists to get side-tracked and bogged down in interminable debates on the hoary, unresolvable questions– “who is a Jew” and “what does Jewishness consist of?”

        ——————

        Patently , without the colonisation of Palestine, supposedly in the name of Judaism, by mainly non-practising Jews, no-one would actually care if Jews considered themselves a people…

        That’s true–but you draw the wrong conclusion. The focus should be on the colonization of Palestine, the Nakba, the Occupation, the apartheid regime, the violations of international law, the ongoing ethnic-cleansing and oppression–not on “who is a Jew” or “are Jews a people”.

        None of Zionism’s misdeeds–not the colonization, not the Nakba, not the continuous denial of Palestinian rights– none of it can be justified by claims that Jews are a people, so there is no overriding imperative to dispute that claim.

      • Keith
        December 31, 2015, 6:13 pm

        SIBIRIAK- (Quoting Rosross)- “Patently , without the colonisation of Palestine, supposedly in the name of Judaism, by mainly non-practising Jews, no-one would actually care if Jews considered themselves a people…”

        SIBIRIAK- “That’s true….”

        Actually, I think that a lot of people would care. During the enlightenment, the Gentile monarchs greatly restricted the power of the Rabbis to force a religiously based “peoplehood” upon the Jews under their influence. Part of the intent was to assimilate the Jews into the surrounding Gentile community rather than continue with their feudal role as a people apart fulfilling certain specialized functions. The assimilation of Jews into the surrounding Gentile communities has always been seen as an existential threat to the Jewish “people” by the Zionists. The Zionists were never overly concerned with the fate of people who were Jewish per se, rather, they were very concerned with reestablishing the historical internal solidarity of Jews as a cohesive group distinct from Gentiles. At the time, it was an impossible task which only became viable with the Holocaust and its successful exploitation by the Jewish Zionists such that nowadays organized Jews are overwhelmingly Zionist and feel themselves separate and essentially different from non-Jews. Appearances notwithstanding, Judeo-Zionists are not so much assimilated as they are integrated into the surrounding community of non-Jews, continuing to maintain a high level of internal group solidarity which contributes significantly to the power seeking success of the elite Jewish Zionists.

      • gamal
        December 31, 2015, 7:55 pm

        “you can certainly change your race”

        how true i oscillate between, Semite, Celt and Anglo-Saxon hourly, anyone who thinks Celts and Anglo-Saxons are the same race has never seen Celtic play Rangers, the racial antagonism is superb.

        Is rootless cosmopolitan a race?

      • Philemon
        January 2, 2016, 7:41 pm

        The whole Zionist thing seemed from the very beginning to attract the worst dregs.

        Crooks, conmen, and cranks, all of ’em. The cynical way they exploited those they wanted to use all along, all the while patting themselves on the back for it as well. The complete lack of any human decency. The denigration of any human decency as some sort of whiny “liberal” weakness by Israeli apologists. And at the same time, decrying any objection to the thuggery as supposedly inspired by some supposedly ubiquitous antisemitism.

        It’s psychopathic. And since the psychopaths have been in charge from the beginning, they’ve warped people. You can’t live in a place like that without being affected, at least somewhat. It takes a strong mind and will to resist the influence.

        Sibiriak: “The focus should be on the colonization of Palestine, the Nakba, the Occupation, the apartheid regime, the violations of international law, the ongoing ethnic-cleansing and oppression–not on ‘who is a Jew’ or ‘are Jews a people’.”

        Sibiriak, I agree, in a perfect world, where people are perfectly rational and have a thorough command of at least first order logic, there would be no need.

        Unfortunately, there are lots of Zionist supporters, with deep pocketbooks, who are not so rational. They might need stronger treatment. Maybe some history would help, just to wake ’em up.

      • yonah fredman
        January 2, 2016, 10:30 pm

        First- You will not get all Jews to agree on a definition of what being a Jew is. You will not get all Jews to agree on anything, but certainly not on a self definition.

        Second- You can go to the spanish inquisition and you will find that there was a racial element to the persecution of conversos after the exile of 1492.

        Third- Certainly the insistence by certain European nationalists from the latter part of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th century and their assertion that the Jews were part of a separate nation, has to be considered. (Does Russia still list nationality on its identity cards? When the USSR was in existence, the USSR listed Jew as a nationality.)

        Fourth- Yeshaya Leibowitz in a debate I saw on youtube, posed the question, “Maybe it’s possible for a nation to stop being a nation.” The right wing woman who argued with him demanded to know what were the consequences of his question and he asserted that sometimes a question is just a question. 140 years ago with the preponderance of Ashkenazi Jews speaking Yiddish, being treated by the Czar with special laws that would be deemed racial or ethnic or tribal, was certainly a different situation than the Jews outside of Israel today who hardly share any language and whose attachment to the rituals are certainly weaker than they were 140 years ago. Just like a nation can be a recent creation: (examples: US, Canada) a people can cease to be a nation as well. That is one of the differences between Jews of the diaspora and the Jews of Israel, the Jews of Israel share a language and a destiny (or less melodramatically a dire situation), whereas the Jews of the diaspora do not share a language and (for simplicity sake) do not share a destiny.

        Five: The primary Jewish ethnic experience in America was the immigrant experience which for most American Jews was in its prime time about a hundred years ago. (1880 to 1920). Any study of the American Jews of that period would include a survey of their religious experiences, but would not limit themselves to that aspect of their acculturation to their new homeland. Those who assert that Judaism and Jewishness are one and the same would have a tough time adjusting to the sociological surveys for the first seventy years of the last century. As we move further away from that primary American Jewish experience, the commonalty of American Jews dwindles into a discussion of delicatessen foods and nostalgia. But just witness the rejection that Philip Roth receives for his book about Lindbergh by Phil Weiss and the rejection of him by most of those who comment about him in this comment section. This hatred that he conjures which has really zilch to do with Zionism is further testimony of the hatred for the secular Jew that one finds in this comments section. Roth is over 80 and of the past and maybe the hatred he conjures here is also of the past.

      • Keith
        January 3, 2016, 1:13 am

        YONAH FREDMAN- “This hatred that he conjures which has really zilch to do with Zionism is further testimony of the hatred for the secular Jew that one finds in this comments section.”

        The Mondoweiss comments section overflows with hatred for Phil? Are your Zionist beliefs so bizarre that you are totally divorced from reality? I have seen no evidence to support this outrageous assertion. Forced to choose between rationality and Zionist solidarity you abandon rationality for Zionist solidarity? Why am I not surprised?

      • Mooser
        January 3, 2016, 12:22 pm

        “Forced to choose between rationality (and in my opinion, Judaism) and Zionist solidarity you abandon rationality for Zionist solidarity?”

        Keith, it’s really pretty simple. Religious faith and Jewish traditions are a miracle which can spring forth anew from the human breast every day!

        Land, well, that they’re not making any more of!

      • Mooser
        January 3, 2016, 1:32 pm

        “American Jewish experience, the commonalty of American Jews dwindles into a discussion of delicatessen foods and nostalgia.”

        Gee, “Yonah” if that’s what it is for you, I feel sorry for…Oh, what’s that? Oh, I see, that’s how it is for all the Jewish people you don’t know, not for the one you do. Of course.
        I forgot, you’re the real thing, and the rest of us, well, not so much.

      • RoHa
        January 3, 2016, 6:25 pm

        “Land, well, that they’re not making any more of!”

        Monaco plans to make another bit, and China is busy in the South China Sea.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reclamation

      • Philemon
        January 4, 2016, 10:11 pm

        Take yonah as a case in point. His “history” is rather… selective.

        I love yonah.

        First: Jeesh, yonah, I thought Israel was assuming that role.

        Second: The inquisition was all about Jews as a race? Nothing to do with religion, no sir. Well, yonah, it was mostly religion. Race, except for skin color, they didn’t know from nothing back then.

        Third: “Certainly the insistence by certain European nationalists from the latter part of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th century and their assertion that the Jews were part of a separate nation, has to be considered.” Soytenly. You know, well maybe you don’t, that nationalist movements had been going on from the early part of the 19th century, latter part of the 18th, and they had offered the people who professed or practiced Judaism as a religion equal rights as citizens. However, the Jewish leadership didn’t like it so much.

        Third and a half: The USSR, and before that Russia, didn’t tell the people who professed or practiced Judaism as a religion to take equal rights or leave ’em. They gave ’em special rights to make up for the deficit. Then, of course, you got the alter cockers mourning about the good old times when they were coining the money. You know how the Bolsheviks got 100% support out of people who were only marginally those who professed or practiced Judaism as a religion? Yeah, those Bolsheviks told the poor schlemiels that if the Bolshies lost power, there would be pogroms like they’d never believe. Way worse than any that had actually taken place. Well, you know what? The USSR and the Bolsheviks lost power. I didn’t see any horrific, never seen before, so horrible, pogroms. Did you?

        Yonah writes: “140 years ago with the preponderance of Ashkenazi Jews speaking Yiddish, being treated by the Czar with special laws that would be deemed racial or ethnic or tribal, was certainly a different situation than the Jews outside of Israel today who hardly share any language and whose attachment to the rituals are certainly weaker than they were 140 years ago. Just like a nation can be a recent creation: (examples: US, Canada) a people can cease to be a nation as well. That is one of the differences between Jews of the diaspora and the Jews of Israel, the Jews of Israel share a language and a destiny (or less melodramatically a dire situation), whereas the Jews of the diaspora do not share a language and (for simplicity sake) do not share a destiny.”

        I like that “140 years.” ;)

        Yonah, whether the Czar liked your forebearers or not, Israel is not a creation of the people who lived in Palestine. And by the way, Yiddish or Modern Hebrew… Well, I’d go with Yiddish myself. There’s so much more of it. Much more fun.

        Five: “The primary Jewish ethnic experience in America was the immigrant experience..” Like Irving Berlin, of course. Well, that’s fine, isn’t it?

  2. yourstruly
    December 29, 2015, 11:50 am

    Zionism and Nazism

    same deadly hatred
    different targets
    while the world stands by
    madness
    run amok

    • MaxNarr
      December 29, 2015, 12:23 pm

      What a terrible poem!! There is no comparison to the Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews, and the descendants of those victims who have returned home. Shame on you!

      • Kris
        December 29, 2015, 3:57 pm

        Actually, there are many valid parallels between the Nazis and the Zionist Jews; yourstruly is pointing out the deadly hatred that animated/animates both, and the fact that just as the holocaust carried out by Nazis against Jews was enabled by the silence of much of the world, so, too, is the slow-motion holocaust carried out by the Zionist Jews enabled by the world’s silence.

        The Nazis and the Zionist Jews share racism, ethnic/religious supremacist goals, and a special aptitude for cruelty. Nazis, just like the Zionist Jews, stole and occupied land that belonged to other people. The Nazis and the Zionist Jews also were/are acting out of malign religious convictions.

      • eljay
        December 29, 2015, 7:06 pm

        || MaxNarr: … There is no comparison to the Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews, and the descendants of those victims who have returned home. Shame on you! ||

        1. There is a comparison between the Nazis and Zio-supremacists.
        2. Descendants of the European victims of the Nazis did not “return home” when they went to the foreign land of Palestine and began committing (war) crimes in pursuit of a religion-supremacist state in as much as possible of Palestine.
        3. Shame on you and every hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist like you for continuing to commit – and to advocate, excuse, justify and defend – Zio-supremacist (war) crimes, and for using the Holocaust to justify the acts of injustice and immorality you continue to commit.

      • RoHa
        December 29, 2015, 7:11 pm

        Tell that to Dr. Ofer Cassif.

      • lonely rico
        December 29, 2015, 8:28 pm

        >MaxNarr
        There is no comparison to the Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews, and the descendants of those victims …

        Some, such as Norman Pollack see a resemblance –

        Israel has come a long way since 1967 in the construction of an apartheid state and society with respect to the Palestinians, in truth, the proto-Nazification of policy and conduct in which the gas chamber has been replaced by the more protracted denial of life to the victims of an ethnocentric/racial ideology achieved through the degradation of a whole people: a faucet of inhumanity left running, where genocide is administered in drips rather than in a torrent.

        http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/19/israels-defamation-of-judaism/

      • Citizen
        December 30, 2015, 5:07 am

        Israel’s apologists sneer & jeer on Twitter at those using the Nazi analogy, pointing to the fact Israel has no industrial gas chambers smoking away Palestinians; further, they say, only a Jew-hater defends the current individualistic flourish of criminal knife attacks on public ways. (They sometimes add that Israel does not behead anybody, has a thriving gay community, supports equal rights for females, and gives the world the highest technology.)

        Periodic “mowing the lawn,” (in “self-defense”) and “putting them on a diet,” and lack of due process objections are mostly ignored, as is the occupation itself. Settlers, of course, have perfect right to be where they are since it’s all their homeland, dating back 2000 years, and, besides, the US stole natives’ land and killed off the natives, not to mention US screwed Mexico out of its land. No recognition of the Nuremberg trials (where Goering made his comment about the use of Fear by government to easily manipulate the masses) and their Geneva progeny as setting a new world ethic–historically, everybody stole somebody else’s land.

      • CigarGod
        December 30, 2015, 8:37 am

        Really, Max?
        I challenge you to make a list.

        In one column there are walls, passes, starvation, roundup’s, tortures, summary executions, theft of property, bombings and propaganda that justify it all.

        In the other column are 6 million people. ..contained within walls and fences…not yet herded to their final destination. The destination elected leaders are screaming for.

        Maybe Israel is “cracking up”, Max. But you may recall that the orders were still being issued, trains were still running and ovens were still working 24/7…even as the Nazi’s were reading the directions on their pill bottles.

      • rosross
        December 30, 2015, 9:44 pm

        None of the Israeli colonists in Palestine were returning home. Religions do not get land rights or homelands.

        If religions did get land rights then Jews would have rights to a part of Iraq where their religion was invented and Christians would have rights to a part of Palestine where their religion was invented.

        But religions do not get land rights.

      • YoniFalic
        December 31, 2015, 2:41 pm

        Primary Zionist leader Max Nordau, second only to Herzl as a founder of Zionism, was already positively disposed toward genocide of inferior non-European peoples long before German Nazism crystallized as a political ideology.

        http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.676420

  3. Annie Robbins
    December 29, 2015, 12:06 pm

    Many friends are saying that Israel is cracking up.

    the knife dance at the wedding celebrating the duma murders might have pushed a few more people past their limits.

  4. Mooser
    December 29, 2015, 1:12 pm

    “And, to be parochial: how many secular American Jews will openly take on their parents”

    That could easily become a battle of wills, and nobody wants that.

  5. Krauss
    December 29, 2015, 1:47 pm

    Remnick has said that the “situation is tragic” for many years now.
    Doesn’t prevent him from inviting Ari Shavit and praising him to the heavens.

    Let’s dump these “liberal Zionists”. Even if they all went pro-BDS tomorrow, they must still account for their crimes up until today, as they have fanatically blocked any real resolution, or even any meaningful pressure, up until now.

    It’s too easy to blame the Adelsons of the world, he had plenty help from self-described “liberals” like Remnick/Beinart/Goldberg/Chait and of course the Sulzbergers.

  6. John Douglas
    December 29, 2015, 2:29 pm

    RE: (For good reason; we all know that victims model their abuser when they gain any power.)

    I’m not sure about this as historically correct, unless “model” simply means that leaders of revolutions often become harsh people in the process. But if it is true, what does it imply for Palestinians when they eventually throw off the yoke?

    • Annie Robbins
      December 29, 2015, 3:20 pm

      i questioned that passage myself john douglas as i don’t think it’s inherently true.

    • diasp0ra
      December 29, 2015, 3:35 pm

      @JD

      I can’t agree with that sentence. Not that it doesn’t happen, but to suggest it like it’s a rule we have all agreed upon is a bit of a stretch.

      • Citizen
        December 30, 2015, 5:19 am

        A bit of a stretch, although we can think of the aftermath of the French revolution, and Truman’s disgusted diary comment that the Zionists were joining way-too-many other historical victors in quickly morphing from unterhund to uberhund.

    • rosross
      December 30, 2015, 10:00 pm

      Whether or not victims model their abuser, although the theory is questionable, the fact remains that even if they did it is not an excuse for denying justice.

  7. a blah chick
    December 29, 2015, 5:06 pm

    “New Yorker editor David Remnick just got back from Jerusalem and said on the radio this morning that the situation is “tragic”…

    No, Hamlet was a tragedy, Israel is simply developing along the lines of all enthnocracies. It never ends well.

    This is what we thought would happen if The Butcher got re-elected.

  8. a blah chick
    December 29, 2015, 5:07 pm

    Israel is not doing ANYTHING it has not done in the past. They just don’t care who’s watching now.

    • Citizen
      December 30, 2015, 5:21 am

      Why should they? Nobody influential in USA is calling for using US aid to Israel & diplomatic cover as leverage to pressure Israel to change its stripes. US aid to Israel is GROWING.

    • ritzl
      December 31, 2015, 9:02 pm

      abc, I’d add to what you said that more people are watching.

      I think you’re right about Israel living, nay, malevolently reveling in its non-accountable past but that’s also its undoing. The less Israelis care, the more it signals to others to care — in the polar opposite direction.

  9. Keith
    December 29, 2015, 6:25 pm

    PHIL- “…we all know that victims model their abuser when they gain any power.”

    Ah, pop psychology! Jewish myth-history as well. Funny, I was unaware that Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsky, Begin, or most of the other founders of Zionist Israel were the victims of Nazi persecution. The overwhelming majority of the six million were either non-Zionists or anti-Zionists. Perhaps you should read Lenni Brenner’s “Zionism in the Age of Dictators.”

    • RoHa
      December 29, 2015, 7:12 pm

      “pop psychology! Jewish myth-history as well”

      Each is dangerous enough by itself. Together …

  10. DaBakr
    December 29, 2015, 7:32 pm

    The USA has a very similar law if not in word in scope. It requires those lobbying at the behest of a foreign agent register as one. Of course the left wing lunatics in Israel are going insane. Millions of dollars are at stake. 1000s of salaries at risk. No more hiding under rocks if EU member States (or other governments wether hostile or friendly )are funding groups hostile to the state in any number of ways-some legal others not. And the same applies to the right wing fanatics. If their funding, wether from Vegas or South Africa the citizens deserve to know who is funding these ngo’s. It’s hysterical that anyone should liken this law to nazi law. Nobody said the left-wing Israeli fringe have their heads screwed on any more then the wedding dancers.

    Of course it is completely expected that PW and his coterie of groupies would have nothing but disdain for th his legal proceding as it falls in line with all the other hypocriticcal positions taken here against Israel but no other nation on earth.

    The law is a sound one. No NGO will be prevented from carrying out their agenda but the people will now know from who funds and how much. Will there be attempts at ‘shaming’? Yes, naturally . The fence sitting cowards need to be weeded out from the die-hard activists on both ends of the polarity.

    • Citizen
      December 30, 2015, 5:30 am

      AIPAC got around FARA technically, by dropping all direct funding from the state of Israel its openly-named Zionist predecessor had used. Has worked like a charm, with AIPAC treated like the purely domestic gun lobby and AARP. Nobody has seriously tried a more liberal interpretation of FARA against AIPAC, nor has anyone amended FARA to include AIPAC’s operations.

  11. GregMozart
    December 29, 2015, 8:29 pm

    “For good reason; we all know that victims model their abuser when they gain any power.”

    I think these Nazi comparisons are way overstating the case and again make legitimate Palestinian grievances sound silly. If this quote is true, then by the same analogy what should we expect from a Palestinian state under Hamas or PA? Repression of Jews, gays, atheists? I think it’s the wrong direction to focus in.

    I have written extensively about this. Palestinians have suffered a lot because of bad leadership, who did not ultimately end up creating a state even with pressure from the US, which blocked democratic elections among Palestinians for years to push for a two state solution. Meanwhile Palestinian children born to refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait etc. are kept stateless to this day, and moreover were abused because of PLO’s bungling (taking Saddam’s side in Kuwait, Black September in Jordan, getting involved fighting against the Phalangists for some reason in Lebanon). Israeli leadership of course deserves blame, but not exclusive blame. All countries in the region have similar stances, afraid to take more refugees, afraid of demographic shifts, etc.

    In my opinion the way forward for Palestinians has always been to show leadership in the area of governing. While Palestinians don’t have their own state (unless you consider Jordan is majority Palestinian), they do have cities, RIGHT NOW. I believe that if they welcomed Jews, Gays, Atheists to live among their cities, that would be the fastest way to governing their own state. I know that armed resistance sounds attractive (especially when you’re a liberal overseas who doesn’t have to do it yourself). But every violent attack hurts peaceful people like myself who have to pay the collective punishment. Instead, the opposite should be done. Videos that show Palestinian treatment by IDF. Videos that show Jews, gays, etc. living in Ramallah and feeling safe. If that was done in the 90s, Palestinians would have a state by now. As a liberal, I would like to see Palestinian self-determination! But I would like to see leadership by Palestinians in the area of human rights in the areas they govern.

    • zaid
      December 30, 2015, 1:12 am

      “As a liberal, I would like to see Palestinian self-determination! But I would like to see leadership by Palestinians in the area of human rights in the areas they govern.”

      No such thing were requested from blacks in South Africa, Algerians…etc .

      The right of self determination is an international law/ god given right that all nations have and there are no precondition for it. how they treat their gays is irrelevant.

      You are not a real liberal , you are a tribalist Jew who have a sense of belonging to a state / nation that acts contrary to his convictions, so he likes to convince himself that it is the Palestinians fault , so he can live with it…..Voila!

      A real liberal dont do that you know.

      I am a Palestinian refugee , i am a against Arab countries giving Palestinians their Citizenship, and i support the right of return, and i don’t have to behave or act in a certain way to be granted that right.

      I dont need your blessing or approval to exercise my rights.

      • echinococcus
        December 30, 2015, 4:03 am

        Let’s add one more thing to the intention of the so-called liberals (what does that mean, anyway?), re self-determination of the people of Palestine: it will mean nothing less than a pronouncement determining the future status of the **entire territory of Palestine** (mandate area) by the **entire Palestinian people**, i.e. the people living in the entirety of (mandate) Palestine, and now their heirs, **prior to the colonial invasion with hostile intent by the Zionists**. In the **absence of occupation** or other blackmail. Including all the Palestinian diaspora. **Excluding all illegal arrivals** after the declaration of hostile intent in 1897. Anything less is not self-determination but bending to the Might is Right illegality and blackmail, defended by many on this web site. It can be done, too, but call it by its name.

        This must include all those who have taken other citizenship, too: the fiction that a refugee –especially a stateles refugee– is no longer one after taking another citizenship (while the same lawyers edict double and triple citizenships for Zionists acceptable and bend their own “rule” anytime convenient), is being defended here by “non/anti”-Zionists and helpers thereof. The heir of a Palestinian refugee does not forfeit any inheritance.

      • Rashers2
        December 30, 2015, 11:15 am

        Well said, Zaid! GregMozart’s comment is offensive and condescending; his having “written extensively about this” doesn’t imbue his analysis with an authenticity or veracity that it doesn’t intrinsically possess!
        Virtually all liberals and libertarians would like to see equality of rights and responsibilities extended to all, everywhere, irrespective of religious affiliation (or absence thereof), of sexual orientation, etc., etc.
        Suggesting, however, that observance should somehow be a necessary pre-cursor to Palestinian self-determination/the vindication of the Palestinian’s rights of return or any other rights which have been stolen or removed by the Zionist state is arrogant bullsh*t. GregMozart is merely trying to reinforce a tenet of Hasbara, along with “anti-Zionist = anti-Semite” or “critic of Israeli policy/behaviour = left-winger”; in this case, “the world would be more sympathetic towards and, implicitly, Israel might be prepared to ‘concede’ Palestinian rights to self-determination if the Palestinians themselves demonstrated that they would use such rights ‘responsibly’ – i. e., as we dictate their exercise”.
        The premise is analogous with stealing a child’s pen and offering to return it provided that, thereafter, the child promises to write with it only words that the thief dictates.
        Furthermore, if one extrapolates GregMozart’s argument to the Zionist state itself, by its own systematic and systemic human rights’ abuses, war crimes, ethnic/religious discrimination, extra-judicial executions and war crimes, Israel would long ago have forfeited its “right” to exist (perhaps it has….).

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      December 30, 2015, 12:47 pm

      Nobody buys your transparent victim blaming concern trolling here, ”Greg”. Nobody. You might like to try the New York Times.

    • talknic
      December 30, 2015, 6:23 pm

      @ GregMozart December 29, 2015, 8:29 pm

      Poor Greg does a Ziodump, then wades around in it LOL

      // “.. victims model their abuser when they gain any power.” //

      ” … by the same analogy what should we expect from a Palestinian state …”

      An admission the Palestinians have been abused by Zionist colonization. Glad we got that sorted

      “Palestinians have suffered a lot because of …”

      Zionist colonization

      ” Meanwhile Palestinian children born to refugees in Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait etc. are kept stateless to this day, and moreover were abused because of ..”

      Zionist colonization

      ” While Palestinians don’t have their own state (unless you consider Jordan is majority Palestinian) … “

      A) Catch up pal. The majority of the world’s states have already recognized the State of Palestine. It is only Israel who refuses to end occupation & allow Palestinian independence

      B) Only folk who lived in the area that became Jordan had a right to automatic Jordanian citizenship. People who did not live in that area did not. All of Jordan’s citizens are JORDANIAN.

      C) Until 1988 when it was handed back to the PLO, the West Bank was under Jordanian sovereignty. By 1967 Jordan (incl the West Bank) was a UN Member State and a High Contracting Power.

      ” I believe that if they welcomed Jews, Gays, Atheists to live among their cities, that would be the fastest way to governing their own state”

      Maybe they will. However, while Israel remains the Occupying Power independence is impossible.

      “I know that armed resistance sounds attractive”

      Uh? There is nothing ‘attractive’ about being occupied.

      “But every violent attack hurts peaceful people like myself who have to pay the collective punishment.”

      Go bitch to the Israeli Government and Zionist Federation who refuse to end occupation and territorial theft

      “Videos that show Palestinian treatment by IDF. Videos that show Jews, gays, etc. living in Ramallah and feeling safe. If that was done in the 90s, Palestinians would have a state by now.”

      Please explain how. Israel has been operating in territories “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” for 68 years now and has never withdrawn from any of those territories ( https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/eed216406b50bf6485256ce10072f637/b4085a930e0529c98025649d00410973?OpenDocument )

      ” I would like to see Palestinian self-determination! “

      Go whine to the Israeli Government and Zionist Federation

    • Mooser
      December 31, 2015, 12:14 am

      “Greg” you nowhere in your comments deal with the fact that support for Zionism is collapsing among Jews (and others) internationally.

      • echinococcus
        December 31, 2015, 2:24 am

        “support for Zionism is collapsing among Jews…”
        When did I already hear that? Oh yes, now I remember. I was a baby, around 1949. The grownups in the room were saying that (and from the window you could hear that other guy telling all The End Of The World Is Neigh.)

  12. Kay24
    December 29, 2015, 9:23 pm

    Israeli leaders have an obsession to be recognized, and are desperate to have the “Jewish State” label added to it’s name. This is not the norm in true “democratic” nations.

    It seems their desperation for that title is more an insurance to steal more lands, and legally show outrage if the “Jews” in zio land came under criticism for doing so. They seem unable to apply the same policies for the Palestinians, who they not only refuse to recognize a State, but also do not end their misery and brutal occupation.

    For years Israel has got away with murders and massacres by whining about enemies out to get them. Israelis have been brainwashed for too long, and seem to support zionist policies, and their land grabs too easily. Poll after poll shows the majority are shamelessly for apartheid policies, and bombing of unarmed civilians.

  13. Qualtrough
    December 29, 2015, 9:58 pm

    @ MaxNarr

    “What a terrible poem!! There is no comparison to the Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews, and the descendants of those victims who have returned home. Shame on you! ”

    And shame on you MaxNarr for leaving out the other 5,000,000 or so who died in Nazis camps or the other tens of millions who died in the fight to defeat the Nazis. What are they, chopped liver?

    Since you only mention a number and didn’t attempt to refute the comparisons I have to assume that you reject it on the basis of quantity. In other words Zionists are pikers compared to the Nazis because their death toll is so much lower. Not to worry. If you Zionists ever exercise your Samson option you will catch up in no time.

    • GregMozart
      December 29, 2015, 10:35 pm

      Nazis weren’t defending Germany from attacking Jews. They went after the Jews just for being born Jewish. They rounded up law abiding citizens who never attacked anyone and sent them to die in concentration camps. Come on. If you want to compare what is going on in Israel, compare it to, say, Turkey + Kurds. Not to Nazis.

      While the Nakba is real, this whole “Zionists” thing is dehumanizing Israelis. Israel is home to lots of Jews who fled to the only state that would accept them. And before that state formed, under British rule they faced immigration restrictions and many died in Europe from systematic extermination. After the state formed, many Jews had to flee from surrounding countries, due to Arab sentiment about a Jewish state being formed in Palestine. In several Arab countries, Jewish communities experienced pressure and pogroms not unlike the Nakba or the Kuwait expulsion of Palestinians. Thank goodness for the existence of of Israel as a state for Jews to call home, which would give them citizenship. One would think that Arab states would do the same for Palestinian Arabs, but sadly none except Jordan gave citizenship to the refugees from the Nakba. Many of the Palestinians today are stateless not by choice. They are given passports stamped “Palestinian”, not unlike us Jews were in Russia, and discriminated against… until such time as their state is formed. Meanwhile they are exploited as cheap labor. The Palestinian refugee problem has grown for decades, even as Syrian refugees are being resettled. This refugee problem is bigger than Israel, and we need to stop the policy of denying Palestinians (including Syrian refugees of Palestinian descent!!) citizenship. Israel should be part of the solution, but it can’t solve everything by itself.

      • eljay
        December 30, 2015, 9:48 am

        || GregMozart @ December 29, 2015, 10:35 pm ||

        Well, it didn’t take him long to stop pretending he was something other than a Zio-supremacist.

        Acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews did not and still do not justify acts of injustice and immorality committed by Jews.

        Acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews did not and still do not justify the existence of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        “Arab states” are under no obligation to absolve Israel of any of its obligations under international law, including the obligation to allow its refugees to return to their homes and lands.

        || … Thank goodness for the existence of of Israel as a state for Jews to call home … ||

        That is a truly lovely “f*ck you” to every non-Jew ethnically cleansed from – and prevented from returning to – his home in Palestine in order to make way for a “Jewish State”.

      • diasp0ra
        December 30, 2015, 9:59 am

        “Thank goodness for the existence of of Israel as a state for Jews to call home, which would give them citizenship.”

        Greg, do you think Zionists have more right to a home than Palestinians? That’s the crux of the whole issue. I don’t care if there is a Jewish state, I care that it was built by ethnically cleansing the original inhabitants.

        You don’t get to end your diaspora by starting the diaspora of another.

      • Misterioso
        December 30, 2015, 11:00 am

        Rabbi Sassoon Kehdouri, Iraq’s Chief Rabbi for 48 years, speaking before the 1946 Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry on Palestine: “Iraqi Jews will be forever against Zionism. Jews and Arabs have enjoyed the same rights and privileges for a thousand years and do not regard themselves as a distinctive separate part of this nation.”

        Chaim Weizmann, Israel’s first president, also addressing the 1946 Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry: “I would not like to do any injustice. The Muslim world has treated the Jews with considerable tolerance. The Ottoman Empire [of which the Arabs were a major part] received the Jews with open arms when they were driven out of Spain and Europe, and the Jews should never forget that.”

        Albert Einstein, 1939: “There could be no greater calamity than a permanent discord between us and the Arab people…. Let us recall that in former times no people lived in greater friendship with us.”

        To quote Yehouda Shenhav, of Iraqi Jewish heritage and professor of sociology and anthropology at Tel Aviv University: “Any reasonable person, Zionist or non-Zionist, must acknowledge that the analogy drawn between Palestinians and Mizrahi [Arab] Jews is unfounded. Palestinian refugees did not want to leave Palestine….Those who left did not do so of their own volition. In contrast, Jews from Arab lands came to this country under the initiative of the State of Israel and Jewish organizations.” (Haaretz, 8 October 2004.)

        Renowned Jewish Israeli historian, Avi Shlaim, born in Baghdad, concurs: “We are not refugees, nobody expelled us from Iraq, nobody told us that we were unwanted. But we are the victims of the Israeli-Arab conflict.” (Ha’aretz, 11 August 2005)

        The late Yisrael Yeshayahu, speaker of the Knesset: “We are not refugees…. We had messianic aspirations.”

        Shlomo Hillel, former minister and speaker of the Knesset: “I don’t regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists.”

        Ran Cohen, member of the Knesset: “I am not a refugee….I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee.” (Ha’aretz, 8/10/04)

        It must also be noted that whereas the expulsion of well over one million Palestinian Arabs from their homeland between late 1947 and 1967, was carried out by Jewish forces/militias and the IDF. Palestinians played no role whatsoever in the departure of Jews from Arab countries.

      • GregMozart
        December 30, 2015, 2:02 pm

        > || GregMozart @ December 29, 2015, 10:35 pm ||
        > Well, it didn’t take him long to stop pretending he was something other than a Zio-supremacist.

        You got all that from the date I posted? LOL. When was I ever pretending to be something? I joined the site here posting my actual views. You can ask me anything. diasp0ra is actually nice because he (or she?) wants to focus on the actual issues. I am not a “Zio-supremacist”, that is your crazy label. I care about lives and human rights of actual people. It is your fixation on “Zio-this” and “Zio-that” that ignores the actual Jews as people and sadly also hurts Palestinians. All this “Zio-fixation” for decades has brought, what exactly? More suffering. And how convenient to keep pushing the narrative, attacking people as “Zionist”, while Palestinians in several countries have to pay the price for the same agenda and failed leaders for decades.

        And anyway, you are employing a double standard yourself eljay, in your own posts. Are you only talking about occupation after 1967 borders, or all of Israel being illegitimate? What is the argument for why Jews can have their own state and cities at Tel Aviv at all? “Acts of injustice against Jews don’t justify the existence of a State” but you don’t actually care what would happen to the Jews if their state was destroyed. What do you exactly support? Ayatollah Khomeini talks about an unrealistic ethnic cleansing of Jews from Tel Aviv and all other areas. It’s all crazy and unrealistic, meanwhile these unrealistic ideologies on both sides prevent real solutions from happening.

        And why exactly shouldn’t Arab states give asylum to Arabs? If Russia didn’t give asylum to Russian refugees and kept native-born children as refugees for decades, that would be obscene. “That is a truly lovely “f*ck you” to every non-Jew ethnically cleansed from – and prevented from returning to – his home in Palestine in order to make way for a “Jewish State”.” … Oh, very nice way to whitewash responsibilities of states. Jewish refugees were turned away by FDR during WW2, and had to go back home and die. Thankfully, Syrian refugees are getting asylum … except of course for Palestinian refugees, who are turned back to die. You say you care about Palestinians, but I think you care more about being “anti-Zionist”, which simply perpetuates the same people in power, hurts more people, for decades. What about 1.5 million Palestinian refugees? “Oh, Arab states don’t have responsibility.” My ass they don’t. Let’s be real here, the definition of Palestinian and the policy has caused a lot of people to end up stateless, just so your “anti-Zionist” ideology can be indulged. What about if a Palestinian wants to work in Lebanon for example? Oh, that would “upset the delicate sectarian balance”. If a person fleeing Syria goes to Saudi Arabia? Oh, they’re Palestinian, they’ll be kicked out soon. It is you who has a fixation on “Zionists”, while I look at Palestinians as people, not pawns for a cause.

      • GregMozart
        December 30, 2015, 2:31 pm

        @diasp0ra “Greg, do you think Zionists have more right to a home than Palestinians?”

        That is a very good question. I do not talk about “Zionists”, at least with the same meaning. I talk about people and their nationalities. There are many Jews around the world, some are Zionists and some are not. There are also different kinds of Zionists. The word “Zionists” as used in here is a term to delegitimize Jews’ rights to self determination, by labeling any such effort colonialists/supremacist by fiat.

        “That’s the crux of the whole issue. I don’t care if there is a Jewish state, I care that it was built by ethnically cleansing the original inhabitants.”

        Well, it depends. By that standard, *every* state is built by ethnically cleansing the original inhabitants. But to look at the region specifically where we are talking about… after the Romans, Jews were still a majority there until it was conquered by Christians and Muslims. When Muslims were in power, Al Aqsa was built in 705 on the site where the Jewish Temple had been. Then Crusaders pillaged their way and took over the area. Selah ad Din Ibn Ayyub won it back from the Crusaders, and Jews lived under Muslim rule, in relative peace and security as individuals! And yet, in the following centuries, Muslims slowly settled more and more of the land, and Jews lived as dhmmi that had to pay Jawali, a form of Jizya tax in Jerusalem. So was this “settlements and ethnic cleansing” by the people in power? Whatever you want to call it, Jews never attacked civilians to get their own state. They were allowed to live their lives and serve God in peace.

        The West Bank, which is the main area we talk about when dealing with the IDF occupation, was under Jordanian occupation fom 1948 – 1967. During this time, Jordanian forces destroyed Jewish communities and synagogues, turning them into chicken coops or razing them. People destroyed graves on the Mount of Olives. Jews from any country were barred from visiting, let alone worshipping, in Jerusalem. In Hebron, where today the IDF has a shameful apartheid situation, there was a big Jewish community, but they were massacred in 1929 before Israel ever was declared (as usual because of Al Aqsa rumors). Should Jews have gone out and killed Arab civilians? In short, I do not think it’s as simple as “Jews are colonialist occupiers” especially since today, 10x as many people live in the area as back then. I think what we should focus on now is individuals and human rights, nationalities and achievable solutions. This should always be the first priority.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        December 30, 2015, 3:12 pm

        @Greg

        “Ayatollah Khomeini talks about an unrealistic ethnic cleansing of Jews from Tel Aviv and all other areas”

        He does? That’s some achievement, given that he’s been dead for over a quarter of a century.

      • GregMozart
        December 30, 2015, 3:15 pm

        Well @Maximus it might surprise you to know that his son Seyed’s last name is also Khomeini and he is also an Ayatollah. Plus he has a twitter account, where he posted it himself: https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/531366667377717248 … he also wrote a book about it which was released recently.

      • eljay
        December 30, 2015, 3:21 pm

        || GregMozart: You got all that from the date I posted? … ||

        No, I got it from the content of your posts.

        || … I am not a “Zio-supremacist” … ||

        …says a guy who defends Jewish supremacism in a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. You’re as amusing as the rest of your co-collectivists. :-)

        || … And anyway, you are employing a double standard yourself … ||

        Nope. Unlike Zio-supremacists, I advocate the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality.

      • Mooser
        December 30, 2015, 3:30 pm

        “I think what we should focus on now is individuals and human rights, nationalities and achievable solutions.”

        When Greg says “human rights” he is talking about what used to be called ‘the right of conquest’.
        Does anybody know of a version of “human rights” which includes just about anything the Zionists did?

        And you can take that “self-determination” back to the Balkans, “Greg”. “Self-determination” doesn’t really determining, inventing yourself a nationality, in order to take advantage of a situation.

      • diasp0ra
        December 30, 2015, 5:36 pm

        @Greg

        Greg, please do not conflate Jewish right to self determination with Zionism. Zionism refers to a very specific thing, and as much as people love to wax about how there are multiple kinds of Zionism only one kind has any real manifestation on the ground, and that is the colonial movement of the late 19th century. The Jewish people can have their right wherever they choose, nobody is denying them that, but it cannot be at the expense of another people, as it currently is.

        As for the next part of your commentary: No, Greg, you know it’s not like that. You know there is a difference, your analogies are false. We are not dealing with something that has happened 1000 years ago, we are dealing with something that is happening today. Are our standards to be set by medieval practices? There is such a thing as international law, and it is being broken daily by Israel via its denial of refugees rights of return, among many other examples.

        The other problem with your analogy is that Muslims settled the area, they did not kick out the inhabitants to settle the area. If they had ethnically cleansed the Jewish population then you would have a point, but they didn’t, the Zionists did. They did attack civilians to get their own state, are you not familiar with the extensive history of terror of the Zionist movement?

        Your next part is unclear to me. I’m not sure what the relevance of these examples is. The Jordanians did exactly what the new state of Israel did, regarding barring the other population from visiting the other side. Israel has demolished entire Palestinian neighborhoods as well as cultural and religious structures in their occupation. It’s not okay when the Jordanians did it, and it’s not okay when the Israelis do it. The difference is, we’re not under Jordanian rule today, we are under Israeli rule. Two wrongs don’t make a right, you can’t defend Israel’s destruction by saying that the Jordanians did it decades ago as well.

        Why is it that people who want to defend Israel always begin from 1929? How about we go back to the late 1800s to begin our story, shall we? What, you think the Palestinians just suddenly got enraged and attacked the Zionist settlers for no reason? Do you think there is no history why the settlers were mistrusted? As they openly flaunted wanting to establish a country and whisk out the population? Just because Israel wasn’t established doesn’t mean that the Zionist movement wasn’t digging its nails in.

        The use on this website of “Zionist” is completely correct, Greg. Zionist and Jewish are not synonymous, as before Zionists arrived there was a Palestinian Jewish community living there. Nobody said “Jews are colonialist occupiers”. Zionists are. You cannot conflate the two. Focusing on individuals is useless and only prolongs the situation. The only solution is for Israel to follow international law, which is impossible with Zionism as the state’s ideology, as it promotes inequality and ethnic supremacy. If the existence of your state is threatened by following international law then maybe you need to rethink your state.

      • Bumblebye
        December 30, 2015, 5:43 pm

        @ (the very non-genius) Mozart

        how dare you state that the Jews of Hebron were massacred *without* also stating that *hundreds* were saved by their Palestinian neighbors! Eveything you have thus far posted on MW has been equally feeble total hasbara, so mangled that it is worthless nonsense.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 30, 2015, 6:03 pm

        bumblebye, “(the very non-genius) mozart” is an easily debunked hasbara #fail:

        This refugee problem is bigger than Israel, and we need to stop the policy of denying Palestinians (including Syrian refugees of Palestinian descent!!) citizenship. Israel should be part of the solution

        except not once in all his ramblings has he suggested israel take in any of these refugees. he blames it all on arab states and palestinina leaders failed policies. saying “Israel should be part of the solution” is just lip service because he places all the onus on other parties throughout and then throws the dog a bone claiming it’s so unfair for palestinians. the ol shoot and cry action for a sympathetic effect.

        and one more thing, why is it hasbrats so often like to overladen their first and subsequent comments (totaling multiple paragraphs) with introductions about who they are or what their motivations are.

        hi, i’m nice and just here because i care and want to express myself and i think yada yada yada

        don’t they know we judge them by their ideas rather what they claim about themselves and those they defend? not some token throwaway line about what’s best for palestinians.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 30, 2015, 5:55 pm

        Nazis weren’t defending Germany from attacking Jews. They went after the Jews just for being born Jewish.

        no one claimed jew attacked germany. narr claimed “no comparison to the Nazis who murdered 6 million Jews ” and ignored (didn’t address) the very comparisons made:

        same deadly hatred different targets while the world stands by madness run amok

        then you add on another allegation no one made. and btw, zionists very much went after palestinians because they were born palestinian. their intention was ethnically cleansing for the purpose of a jewish majority. the fact palestinians resisted their own ethnic cleansing from their land doesn’t then justify the pretext palestinians were attacked for attacking jews. nice try but it’s mundane and stupid. maybe you drink that koolaid claiming israel merely responds to violence and never initiates it. sure, if palestinians just walked away and ‘here, take my house i don’t care’ then israel would not have had to kill and expel them for it. but obviously that’s not going to ever happen because it’s against human nature.

        also, please keep in mind we’ve heard all of these lame stories before from hasbrats. if you use the same worn out tired arguments why would we think you’re any different?

      • amigo
        December 30, 2015, 6:25 pm

        “They went after the Jews just for being born Jewish” Greg Mozart

        How did they differentiate between those ” Born” Jewish and those who converted.

        “While the Nakba is real, this whole “Zionists” thing is dehumanizing Israelis” Greg Mozart

        How right you are and you should fight it with every “Jewish ” bone in your body. BTW , are you saying all Israelis are Jews.Interesting how you omitted the 20+ % of Israelis who are not Jewish.If Zionism is dehumanising anyone , it is them.

      • RoHa
        December 30, 2015, 6:45 pm

        “The word “Zionists” as used in here is a term to delegitimize Jews’ rights to self determination”

        Jews do not have a right to self determination qua Jews.

        The right of self-determination (if there can be such a thing) is not a right for ethnic/religious/hobby groups. It is a putative prima facie right for legitimate residents of a territory, regardless of their ethnicity, ancestry, crackpot beliefs, or disgusting personal habits.

        Before you write another word on the topic, go to Hostage’s profile, enter “self-determination” in the search field, and read his posts on the topic. Do the same with my profile. Try it with and without the hyphen.

        Then, if you still want to write anything, present arguments, not just bare claims.

        “I think what we should focus on now is individuals and human rights, nationalities and achievable solutions.”

        Then dissolve the Israeli establishment, set up a unified state in Palestine (The Socialist People’s Republic of the Holy Land, perhaps) in which all people have equal rights, all people have Holy Land nationality.

      • talknic
        December 30, 2015, 6:58 pm

        @ GregMozart “Nazis weren’t defending Germany from attacking Jews. They went after the Jews just for being born Jewish. They rounded up law abiding citizens who never attacked anyone and sent them to die in concentration camps”

        Israel isn’t defending Israeli territory from attacking Palestinians. The Jewish state’s military forces went after and dispossessed non-Jews because the Zionist colonization plan coveted their land. They rounded up law abiding citizens who never attacked anyone and dispossessed them to live in refugee camps.

        Israel is in breach of Laws and the UN Charter, adopted in large part because of the treatment of our fellow Jews under the Nazis

        “Israel is home to lots of Jews who fled to the only state that would accept them etc etc “

        Wonderful. Now if they’d only stay in Israel instead of illegally settling in non-Israeli territories.

        ” After the state formed, many Jews had to flee from surrounding countries, due to Arab sentiment about a Jewish state being formed in Palestine”

        Save it pal. It is NORMAL for states at war to expel or intern possible allies of an enemy and to freeze their assets. It’s also normal to allow their return after hostilities if they have not taken citizenship in a country other than that of return whereby they’d forgo the right to return because they’re no longer refugees

        ” Thank goodness for the existence of of Israel as a state for Jews to call home, which would give them citizenship.”

        Wonderful. Now if they would only stop colonizing non-Israeli territories.

        ” One would think that Arab states would do the same for Palestinian Arabs”

        Why? They’re not from those Arab States and they don’t particularly want to live in a foreign Arab country

        ” none except Jordan gave citizenship to the refugees from the Nakba”

        Bullsh*t! Citizens of the West Bank which was legally annexed to Jordan had Jordanian citizenship as a matter of course. non-Jewish Israeli citizens and other refugees from other areas of Palestine were not given Jordanian citizenship

        “Many of the Palestinians today are stateless not by choice”

        Indeed. Because Israel refuses to comply with the law. Needing a continual supply of other folks territories to feed the Zionist colonization enterprise

        “Israel should be part of the solution, but it can’t solve everything by itself.”

        Israel created the problem. No one but Israel can end Israeli occupation of non-Israeli territories

      • rosross
        December 30, 2015, 10:10 pm

        It is simply untrue that the colonists in Palestine went there because no-one would accept them.

        The Zionists began colonising Palestine in the late 19th century and actually worked with Hitler to get more Jews there in the 1930’s.

        After the Second World War, Europeans, including Jews, immigrated around the world. But in terms of Jews fleeing Europe and its horrors, one of the biggest influxes was to Australia. Many also went to the US and Canada.

        There were many other options to occupying and colonising Palestine.

        The Nazis rounded up many people for many reasons – Jews because of religious bigotry; Gypsies because or racial bigotry; Poles because of racial bigotry; Russians for the same reason; Homosexuals because of sexual bigotry …. many, many millions, who all ended up in the same place, just for different reasons.

        The Zionist goal, was and remains, to pretend that only followers of Judaism suffered under the Nazis and that because of this long-gone threat, as we head closer to a century since it all ended, that followers of Judaism needed their own State – imposed on Palestine.

        The fact is they did not and they do not and ironically, one of the least safe places for any Jew to live is in UN mandated Israel or Occupied Palestine.

        Even during the Second World War, Jews lived safely in many countries – Canada, the US, Australia, UK, India and elsewhere. And had done for centuries. My ancestors did.

        The entire concept of ‘needing’ a state for Jews was based on a lie and the scapegoat was and is, Palestine.

        Even more ironic, as Israel becomes increasingly dangerous for everyone, young Israelis are emigrating back to the countries their parents and grandparents left with one of the largest groups in Berlin and many others returning to Russia.

        The Zionist experiment is winding down, as it was always doomed to do, from the moment it was founded on religious bigotry which demanded that the indigenous people of the land being colonised were kept imprisoned and subjugated because as non-Jews, they were considered to be inferior at best and sub-human at worst. It is the latter approach which is most akin to Nazi ‘values.,’ and, the most terrible and most tragic irony of all.

      • Sibiriak
        December 31, 2015, 12:22 am

        GregMozart: while I look at Palestinians as people…
        —————–

        Yes, but do you refuse to look at the Palestinians as a people, with, as the UN and ICJ have affirmed**, a right to self-determination in Palestinian territory?

        Do you also deny that the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territory/settlement expansion effectively denies the Palestinian people of their right to self-determination?

        The crux of the matter, it seems to me, is that you claim a right to self-determination in Palestine for the Jewish people, but deny that right to the Palestinian people. You refuse to accept the Palestinians as a people with political rights guaranteed by international law.

        Instead, you claim, in stark contradiction to historical facts and the international legal consensus, that Palestinians are not Palestinians but just individual Arabs whose political rights could be realized in any of a number of Arab countries. I can only see two motivations for your stubborn denial of Palestinian rights– Jewish self-interest and/or ethno-cultural supremacism.

        ———————-

        **The General Assembly,
        […]

        Affirming the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise sovereignty and to achieve independence in their State, Palestine,

        1. Affirms that the status of the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, remains one of military occupation, and affirms, in accordance with the rules and principles of international law and relevant resolutions of the United Nations, including Security Council resolutions, that the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination and to sovereignty over their territory and that Israel, the occupying Power, has only the duties and obligations of an occupying Power under the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949 and the Regulations annexed to the Hague Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, of 1907;

        2. Expresses its determination to contribute to the achievement of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and the attainment of a just and comprehensive negotiated peace settlement in the Middle East resulting in two viable, sovereign and independent States, Israel and Palestine, based on the pre 1967 borders and living side by side in peace and security. [emphasis added]

        http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/58/292
        ————-

        ICJ Opinion :

        Whatever the merits and demerits of the Jordanian title in the West Bank might have been, and Jordan would in all probability argue that its title there was perfectly valid and internationally recognized and point out that it had severed its legal ties to those territories in favour of Palestinian self-determination, the fact remains that what prevents this right of self-determination from being fulfilled is Israel’s prolonged military occupation with its policy of creating faits accomplis on the ground. In this regard it should be recalled that the principle of non- annexation is not extinguished with the end of the mandate but subsists until it is realized. [emphasis added]

        http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1685.pdf

        ———————
        ICJ Opinion [Jewish judge Rosalyn Higgins]:

        This is not difficult – from Security Council resolution 242 (1967) through to Security Council resolution 1515 (2003), the key underlying requirements have remained the same – that Israel is entitled to exist, to be recognized, and to security, and that the Palestinian people are entitled to their territory, to exercise self-determination, and to have their own State. [emphasis added]

        http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1681.pdf
        ———————
        ICJ opinion:

        http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1679.pdf

        5. The Court has also held that the right of self-determination as an established and recognized right under international law applies to the territory and to the Palestinian people. Accordingly, the exercise of such right entitles the Palestinian people to a State of their own as originally envisaged in resolution 181 (II) and subsequently confirmed. The Court has found that the construction of the wall in the Palestinian territory will prevent the realization of such a right and is therefore a violation of it. [emphasis added]

      • RoHa
        December 31, 2015, 12:29 am

        “There were many other options to occupying and colonising Palestine.”

        One much-ignored option was to go to Palestine as real refugees, grateful to the people of Palestine, and enter modestly with the intent of becoming part of the community instead of rejecting and replacing it.

        Then, once established, to resist the Zionists and support the Arabs in their efforts to form an independent, democratic state in Palestine, offering equal rights to all citizens.

      • echinococcus
        December 31, 2015, 2:26 am

        So what. Zionists are committing the genocide of Palestinians for the only crime of having been born Palestinians. Some logic you guys have.

      • talknic
        December 31, 2015, 4:57 am

        @ GregMozart “Ayatollah Khomeini talks about an unrealistic ethnic cleansing of Jews from Tel Aviv and all other areas”

        @ GregMozart “…. he has a twitter account, where he posted it himself: link to twitter.com … he also wrote a book about it which was released recently”

        Nothing about any ethnic cleansing there buddy. Try something else. Perhaps a little bit less bullsh*te!

        … the elimination of Israel does not mean the massacre of the Jewish people in this region. https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/531366667377717248

      • talknic
        December 31, 2015, 5:21 am

        @ GregMozart “The West Bank, which is the main area we talk about when dealing with the IDF occupation, was under Jordanian occupation fom 1948 – 1967. “

        The West Bank as it was officially renamed, was legally annexed and sovereign to the State of Jordan by request of the majority representative
        http://www.jcpa.org.il/art/knesset6.htm

        Jordan’s annexation of the West Bank was as a trustee only (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950)
        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/legsess.html

        From the moment Jordan joined the UN, the west Bank was a part of the State of Jordan, a UN Member and High Contracting Power

        “During this time, Jordanian forces destroyed Jewish communities and synagogues, turning them into chicken coops or razing them. People destroyed graves on the Mount of Olives”

        All manner of destruction happens in a war.

        “Jews from any country were barred from visiting, let alone worshipping, in Jerusalem”

        Strange .. Israeli emergency law 1948 (still current) forbade Israeli citizens and residents from entering the territory of warring states. The West Bank under Jordanian sovereignty was at war with Israel until the signing of the Peace Treaty.

        It’s NORMAL for states at war to intern or expel people who might be allies of their enemies. It’s also normal to reinstate them after hostilities cease if they have not taken citizenship in a country other than that of return, whereby they are no longer refugees and they forgo return. The US, UK, Australia interned and expelled their own citizens of Japanese, German and Italian heritage during WW2. They were released and reinstated after WW2.

      • GregMozart
        December 31, 2015, 12:22 pm

        A lot here to respond to, but space in these comments is very limited. I will try to be as brief and on point as I can. I do not attack any of you as individuals, and I would have liked to focus as adults on just the issues. But of course, I understand why attacking anyone disagreeing with you as a “hasbrat” or “dirty zionist nazi clone” is something many ideologically bent people have to do. I’m only sad that such devotion to a cause (“Justice, only thus”) perpetuates real Palestinian suffering for decades, propping up failed leaders and blocking democracy. I will expand on this, and the rest, in my (unfortunately short) replies. But I doubt I will change anyone’s mind since this struggle is the only way you can accept anyone can *legitimately* care about Palestinian people. No matter what one says or how much one knows or speaks with actual Palestinians. It’s bullying, but whatever. I will try to do my best in this small space.

        To summarize: I’m a lying nazi apologist, Jews are not a people, Israel is illegitimate, Jordan acted better towards Jews, Jewish expulsion is totally normal, and expelled people always come back.

        @Annie “and one more thing, why is it hasbrats so often like to overladen their first and subsequent comments (totaling multiple paragraphs) with introductions about who they are or what their motivations are.”

        Because when you enter a new forum where most people have different beliefs, it’s nice to introduce yourself ONCE and so I did.

        @Mooser “And you can take that “self-determination” back to the Balkans, “Greg”. “Self-determination” doesn’t really determining, inventing yourself a nationality, in order to take advantage of a situation.”
        @RoHa “Jews do not have a right to self determination qua Jews.””

        From this it sounds like you deny that Jews are even a people. From the comments I’ve seen from annie I’m pretty sure she disagrees with you, as do almost all Jews. It’s not an invented concept, it’s from the Jewish holy books, which both Christians and Muslims also reference. It just so happens that most Palestinians *are* Christian and Muslim, and this idea that Jews are not a people is a “hasbara” of Palestinians to delegitimize Jewish right to self determination. See below.

        @amigo “How did they differentiate between those ” Born” Jewish and those who converted.”

        It’s very hard to convert to Judaism, and once you’re Jewish, you can’t become non-Jewish. That is what makes Jews “small in number”, around 14 million today. If indeed it was easy to get into and Judaism was, like Christianity and Islam, numbering > 1 billion, then it wouldn’t be “a people”. The biological component described in “sons of Israel” would be irrelevant. What constitutes a people is difficult, but if you do a Wikipedia search on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs you will find they are also a Pan Ethnic group, as are Russians, etc. they are united by language, customs, traditions, etc. that make it easy and productive for them to coexist and build together.

        @amigo How right you are and you should fight it with every “Jewish ” bone in your body. BTW , are you saying all Israelis are Jews.Interesting how you omitted the 20+ % of Israelis who are not Jewish.If Zionism is dehumanising anyone , it is them.

        I’m not saying all Israelis are Jews. I have never said non-Jews can’t live in Israel. Israel has a responsibility to all its citizens. I said that Jews need a state which they can run to, and can back them. So do Palestinians. I wished Jordan could have been the home state for Palestinians, being ALREADY majority-Palestinian for 70 years AND recognized by the world as a state, but I understand that “Jordan doesn’t WANT to take more Palestinians or give its citizens better representation” is taken as a serious argument by the same people that say “Israel HAS TO”. So, that’s for another time.

        @talknic “Bullsh*t! Citizens of the West Bank which was legally annexed to Jordan had Jordanian citizenship as a matter of course.”

        That double standard again. At the time, most including the Arab League would disagree with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanian_occupation_of_the_West_Bank#Annexation In fact Jordan was also set up by Western colonial powers (British), as a monarchy with a king from Saudi Arabia! But if the government isn’t Zionists, they are totally legal and cool. More justifications for Jordanian action follows:

        @talknic “From the moment Jordan joined the UN, the west Bank was a part of the State of Jordan, a UN Member and High Contracting Power”
        @talknic “All manner of destruction happens in a war.”
        @talknic “It’s NORMAL for states at war to intern or expel people who might be allies of their enemies. It’s also normal to reinstate them after hostilities cease if they have not taken citizenship in a country other than that of return, whereby they are no longer refugees and they forgo return. The US, UK, Australia interned and expelled their own citizens of Japanese, German and Italian heritage during WW2. They were released and reinstated after WW2.”

        First of all, this was happening over the next 19 years, not during 1948. And in Jordan’s occupation of Jerusalem, it treated Jews FAR WORSE, as a matter of policy, than when Israel is currently in control of Jerusalem. Compare apples to apples.

        And secondly WOW. The double standard runs high. So it is “NORMAL for states at war to intern or expel people who might be allies of their enemies”? You support Japanese internment camps? And no, the expulsions are usually NOT reversed. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars, https://books.google.com/books?id=s3kaTLyAKo0C&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=list+of+modern+expulsions&source=bl&ots=RUq6RbqmIX&sig=lowA_0XBKH1BlsV7j1U48kd5hZI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilgZ7IxYbKAhWJJCYKHTy9C8wQ6AEIOzAF#v=onepage&q=list%20of%20modern%20expulsions&f=false, Palestinians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait and of course my own people the Jews, over and over: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm Of course I don’t think this way and neither do many people except who put ideology ahead of individual people. Syrian refugees will get citizenship before Palestinians, because of THIS (Anti-Zionist) obsession.

        @zaid “I am a Palestinian refugee , i am a against Arab countries giving Palestinians their Citizenship, and i support the right of return, and i don’t have to behave or act in a certain way to be granted that right.”

        Great! And you should fight for your rights. And all about all the people who DID and DO want citizenship and equal rights in the countries they’ve been born in and lived in their whole life? Just because *you* don’t want it, doesn’t mean you have the right to make other countries deny *those individuals* that right, even if you consider them “defectors” from your own agenda.

        @RoHa “One much-ignored option was to go to Palestine as real refugees, grateful to the people of Palestine, and enter modestly with the intent of becoming part of the community instead of rejecting and replacing it.”

        If a one state solution can be built in peace, great. I would love to believe that, like Ali Abunimah or my friend Yehuda HaKohen. But my own Palestinian friends will admit that most Muslim Palestinians would not want to coexist. From what I read of the British Mandate to create a home for Jews and Arabs together, it was doomed to fail. Example:

        “Samuel tried to establish self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate, but was frustrated by the refusal of the Arab leadership to co-operate with any institution which included Jewish participation.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#History_of_Palestine_under_the_British_Mandate

        Yes I know Wikipedia is part of the zionist conspiracy, better amend it. My explanation: too many ideologists on both sides, both Islamic and Zionist. And there are still, to this day. And there are also Anti-Islamic and Anti-Zionist people, as you can see here.

        @eljay >|| … And anyway, you are employing a double standard yourself … ||
        >Nope. Unlike Zio-supremacists, I advocate the universal and consistent application of justice, >accountability and equality.

        OK tell me then, what is the one way to “justice”. Why should the state of Israel exist at all? Should it be dismantled in the name of “justice”? What happens to its residents? What is your position? I have asked you if it’s the same as the Ayatollah Khameini, or if you talk about “1967 borders”.

        @eljay “…says a guy who defends Jewish supremacism in a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. You’re as amusing as the rest of your co-collectivists. :-)”

        You merely assert that. Meanwhile it’s NOT amusing how much Palestinians have had to pay for this ideology. Ideologies more important than individual human lives is nearly always the source of the most suffering. And while the suffering is happening, the ideologues dig in their heels more and more, citing their ideas of “real” justice above everything else. How many more generations have to pay for your idea of “Justice”? Oh, that’s right, the end of Israel is “soon”.

      • GregMozart
        December 31, 2015, 12:25 pm

        (continued. I tried to respond point by point, won’t make such long posts anymore)

        @Rashers2 “Virtually all liberals and libertarians would like to see equality of rights and responsibilities extended to all, everywhere, irrespective of religious affiliation (or absence thereof), of sexual orientation, etc., etc.”

        Yes shocking, as a liberal I care about gays, atheists, agnostics, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Arabs, Palestinians, and think they should all have civil rights. And don’t want to see another state formed that will oppress people. I recognize that leaders who call for violence (of which the Irgun leaders, and Al Husseyni are only two examples of 10000000) are the loud voices that overpower the peaceful majority. And I seek to empower the individuals to make their own choices. The difference between you and me is I equally criticize Israeli leaders AND Palestinian leaders and blame them for what happened, not just in Israel. You focus only on Israel.

        Bottom line: There are several paths I can see that will lead closest to Justice, but none are achievable. One path is to make Jordan and Israel totally democratic, and each takes half of the refugees. Both have governments established and propped up by Western powers. Of course, this is a pie in the sky. Or perhaps you believe that the only “Justice” is to undo Israel and its government? I mean after all, going back to the 1967 lines doesn’t do “Justice”. Establishing another American-backed police state in the West Bank is not Justice, it’s a victory that Palestinians don’t really want, they want a right of return.

        So what is your solution? Undo Israel and its government? Make a one state solution? Ayatollah Khameini specifically tweeted a plan, I asked if you agree with it.

        @talknic “Nothing about any ethnic cleansing there buddy. Try something else. Perhaps a little bit less bullsh*te!”

        “Jewish immigrants who have been persuaded into emigration to Palestine [most of Israel’s population] do not have the right to take part of the referendum. The ensuing government, which comes into power after a referendum among the original Palestinians, once settled WILL DECIDE whether the non-Palestinian immigrants … can continue living in Palestine or should return to their home countries.”

        Besides the fact that the majority of Israelis are children of immigrants (perhaps a mix) and a year is not given, I presume the year is 1948 and everyone since then can be ethnically cleansed by the new “original Palestinian government”. To me, this is ethnic cleansing. AND fantasy in being completely unachievable.

        And also where is the Justice and International Law, when Arab states rejected the UN partition plan, and sent their armies to attack Israel, not because they cared about Palestinians. The PLO was formed to retake Israel from the river to the sea. It amended its charter to include the West Bank only after 1967, I wonder why. And now you talk about the west bank. That’s not even consistent justice. And meanwhile, people suffer.

        To conclude, you can laugh at me and call me names all you want. I’m sad for the real life effects on Palestinian refugees and Israelis. People have died and several new generations have been born. THIS Anti-Zionist ideology has been going on for decades, and Palestinians have been stateless for decades. You keep blaming Israel, expect Israel to solve everything, and keep expecting a different result. Realize for a second whether your *ideology* and the fatcat leaders you support might be partly responsible for what is now the longest-running refugee crisis in modern history. Wait, no. Let’s just continue. “Zionists! You’re a zio-faschist-pig! You dont care about anyoneeeee….”

      • eljay
        December 31, 2015, 2:22 pm

        || GregMozart: OK tell me then, what is the one way to “justice”. Why should the state of Israel exist at all? Should it be dismantled in the name of “justice”? What happens to its residents? What is your position? ||

        My position is that Israel:
        – should exist as a secular and democratic Israeli state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally;
        – should not exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews;
        – should not exist as an oppressive, colonialist and expansionist state.

        It is my humble opinion that Israel should:
        – end its on-going occupation and colonization of land outside of its / Partition borders;
        – withdraw to within its declared / Partition borders;
        – honour its obligations under international law (including RoR); and
        – enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

        || … And while the suffering is happening, the ideologues dig in their heels more and more, citing their ideas of “real” justice above everything else. How many more generations have to pay for your idea of “Justice”? … ||

        The notion of justice never fails to thoroughly disgust Zio-supremacists. You love talking about a “peace” that protects Jewish supremacism in/and a supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine, but you absolutely loathe the idea of justice, accountability and equality.

        How many more generations have to pay while you, your hateful and immoral co-collectivists and your oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and religion-supremacist state continue:
        – to commit – and to refuse to stop committing – (war) crimes; and
        – to flout – and to refuse to stop flouting – international law?

      • YoniFalic
        December 31, 2015, 2:56 pm

        || GregMozart: OK tell me then, what is the one way to “justice”. Why should the state of Israel exist at all? Should it be dismantled in the name of “justice”? What happens to its residents? What is your position? ||

        I answer as a former Israeli and former “Jew”, who as an IDF soldier during Operation Cast Lead murdered innocent people , who realized how evil Zionism and the State of Israel are, and who now atones by fighting Zionists and the State of Israel by any and all means.

        Greg Mozart is disingenuous. It is the 21st century and not the 19th century. The State of Israel could be dismantled and the invader population could be relocated within 6 months to a year.

        Ethnic East European, Ethnic Mesopotamian, Ethnic South Arabian, and Ethnic N. African invaders and their descendants have no claim whatsoever to Palestine and don’t belong there.

        As long as the State of Israel continues to exist and the invaders are treated as legitimate residents, no one can the international anti-genocide regime seriously.

      • amigo
        December 31, 2015, 3:22 pm

        “They went after the Jews just for being born Jewish” Greg Mozart

        To which I responded!!.

        “How did they (Nazis ) differentiate between those ” Born” Jewish and those who converted.”amigo

        To which you responded!!.

        “It’s very hard to convert to Judaism, and once you’re Jewish, you can’t become non-Jewish. That is what makes Jews “small in number”, around 14 million today. If indeed it was easy to get into and Judaism was, like Christianity and Islam, numbering > 1 billion, then it wouldn’t be “a people”. The biological component described in “sons of Israel” would be irrelevant. What constitutes a people is difficult, but if you do a Wikipedia search on link to en.wikipedia.org you will find they are also a Pan Ethnic group, as are Russians, etc. they are united by language, customs, traditions, etc. that make it easy and productive for them to coexist and build together.”Greg Mozart.

        We were not discussing the difficulty of converting to Judaism or Islam or Russians .I asked how a Nazi could tell the difference between a Jew by birth and one by conversion. Why the diversion.Don,t trouble yourself with a reply.We all know the answer.

        Btw , it is possible to lose your Jewish status. Google is your friend , if you make the effort.

        “While the Nakba is real, this whole “Zionists” thing is dehumanizing Israelis”Greg Mozart.

        To which I responded !!.

        ” How right you are and you should fight it with every “Jewish ” bone in your body. BTW , are you saying all Israelis are Jews.Interesting how you omitted the 20+ % of Israelis who are not Jewish.If Zionism is dehumanising anyone , it is them.”

        Your response !!.

        “I’m not saying all Israelis are Jews” .Greg Mozart.

        You did , by omission.You also omitted to respond to my statement that zionism is dehumanising non Jewish Israelis.Was that intentional ??

        Why is/are your post/s replete with answers to question that were not asked and absent answers to the questions asked.

      • GregMozart
        December 31, 2015, 3:32 pm

        Well, thank you at least for focusing on issues, instead of attacking me.

        “How many more generations have to pay while you, your hateful and immoral co-collectivists…”

        ok nevermind. Anyway, what was your solution? Oh right, Israel should not be a Jewish state, it should be a majority-Arab state, ending any Jewish hopes for self determination, but Jordan and West Bank should still be two separate Palestinian states. Possibly joining into a coalition.

        “My position is that Israel: – should exist as a secular and democratic Israeli state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally; – should not exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews;”

        Do you also advocate the same for the potential Palestinian state? Perhaps it should stop being a religion-supremacist Muslim state? The population of the potential State of Palestine is currently 93% Muslim (with nearly 0% Jewish), but Israel is only 75% Jewish. Should the State of Palestine allow equal civil rights to everybody on par with Israel? (I am not saying Israel’s democracy is perfect, neither is the USA btw or any country, but it scores quite high.) Do you want two liberal, democratic states side by side that would allow Jews and Arabs to live there? No. At best I can say, that you don’t give a thought to it. At worst, you know full well what would happen.

        Would you advocate the same for Jordan to become a secular democratic state? Would you want to correct for example these expulsions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_East_Jerusalem_under_Jordanian_occupation

        “Islamization of East Jerusalem under Jordanian occupation is what occurred during the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank between 1948–1967, when Jordan sought to alter the demographics and landscape of the city to enhance its Muslim character. At this time, all Jewish residents were expelled, and restrictions were imposed on the Christian population that led many to leave the city.”

        But when Jordan does it, it’s okay. Jordan is majority Palestinian today. Would you have called for a return of Jewish refugees and to stop “religion-supremacist” Jordan from carrying out its ethnic cleansing, etc. etc. ? But wait, Arabian King != Zionists. Double standard.

        You know the UN Partition plan was not accepted by surrounding Arab governments. What would have happened if their armies overran and destroyed the small new state in 1948, or 1956? Would I have heard your pleas to return Jews to live peacefully under them and have equal rights? Please.

        OK very good. I would like to know if EVERYONE who is posting in response to me is likewise NOT satisfied with Israel ending its “occupation outside 1967 borders”, but in fact wants Israel to cease being a Jewish-majority state. The *main problem* with claiming that Justice and peace will come as soon as there is one state solution, is selecting ignoring history and what Palestinian and other leaders have said.

        “I want to tell Carter and Begin that when the Arabs set off their volcano THERE WILL BE ONLY ARABS in this part of the world… Our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated, the whole of the homeland is liberated, not just a part of it.”
        – Yasser Arafat
        (Associated Press, March 12, 1979)

        “Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations… We shall not rest until the day when we return to our home, and until we destroy Israel.”
        – Yasser Arafat
        (El Mundo, Venezuela, February 11, 1980; The Times, UK, August 5, 1980)

        The history of the Nakba is complex with many historians studying it. But when it comes to the formation of the PLO, it was financed and trained by the KGB like Che Guevara in Bolivia … sadly the people on the ground are the victims of USSR and USA meddling, the same as today in Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan, etc. Americans did this too, training e.g. Manuel Norriega and others to topple South American governments. Does this delegitimize Palestinian claims? No, but these leaders are just as responsible for the continued suffering of Palestinians. If you don’t listen to me, listen to Palestinians themselves:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7TIRbtUeCA

        (yes investigate who made this video). And YOU with your agenda keep propping up these leaders for decades. Yes you are also responsible. Not so much you but your anti-zionist ideology.

        Sometimes various PLO spokespeople even admitted how much they care about “Palestinian well being” vs being “Anti Zionist”…

        “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” – Zuheir Mohsen https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

        Just think for a second, which leaders you have been implicitly or explicitly supporting. Think a little outside the box. Just like me as a USA citizen I have to think about blunders what my country’s leaders have done. Can any of you even admit any responsibility of PLO leaders for f*cking over Palestinians for generations, because their single minded agenda and power was more important? I am a LIBERAL, and I am a Zionist in that I want Jews, and Palestinians, to have a state to call their own, that would negotiate on their behalf and take them in when shit goes bad. You’re not helping Palestinians, and you’re pushing away people like me because you’d rather equate them with Nazis than listening to the hard truth. The PLO “Only official representative” leaders have fucked over the people, and meddling of USA+Russia+Arab countries have fucked over Palestinians in region, who would have otherwise been long at peace with the Jews. Everyone was called a Palestinian at some point.

      • eljay
        December 31, 2015, 3:50 pm

        || GregMozart: … It’s very hard to convert to Judaism, and once you’re Jewish, you can’t become non-Jewish. … ||

        Sure you can – and easily, too. All you have to do is say “I’m not Jewish” or “I am not a Jew”.

        No-one who wishes not to be Jewish should ever be forced to be Jewish, just as no-one who wishes to be Jewish should ever be forced not to be Jewish.

      • eljay
        December 31, 2015, 4:03 pm

        || GregMozart: … Anyway, what was your solution? Oh right, Israel should not be a Jewish state, it should be a majority-Arab state … ||

        No, you lie. Israel should be a secular and democratic Israeli state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees. You Zio-supremacists sure do detest equality.

        || … ending any Jewish hopes for self determination … ||

        Jewish people all over the world are free to self-determine as Jewish. They do not require a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” to be Jewish, and they are not entitled to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” because they happen to be Jewish.

        || … Do you also advocate the same for the potential Palestinian state? … ||

        Of course.

        || … Perhaps it should stop being a religion-supremacist Muslim state? … ||

        If it is currently a religion-supremacist “Muslim State”, yes, it should stop being one. No state should exist as religion-supremacist state (or as any other kind of supremacist state).

        || … The population of the potential State of Palestine is currently 93% Muslim (with nearly 0% Jewish), but Israel is only 75% Jewish. Should the State of Palestine allow equal civil rights to everybody on par with Israel? … ||

        All states – including the states of Israel and Palestine – should be secular and democratic states of and for their respective citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        || … Do you want two liberal, democratic states side by side that would allow Jews and Arabs to live there? No. … ||

        I do, yes. You are the one who does not.

        || … Would you advocate the same for Jordan to become a secular democratic state? … ||

        Yup.

        || … Would you want to correct for example these expulsions … ||

        All criminals must be held accountable for their crimes. Do you disagree?

      • YoniFalic
        December 31, 2015, 4:16 pm

        Descendants of E. European Yiddish speaking communities that practiced Jewish religion created a new definition of “Jew”. (In Russian the word for Hebrew was used.)

        A “Jew” is someone whose ancestors spoke Yiddish and practiced Judaism even if he or she does not practice Judaism.

        Among the Ethnic East Europeans that invaded and stole Palestine, this definition has morphed into invader, who speaks (often very poor) modern Hebrew, and is thus more or less equivalent to non-Arab invader.

        With this new meaning even Mizrahi invaders get to be counted as “Jews” even if they are ethnically Arab as my former Israeli Algerian Jewish girlfriend Mazal was.

      • GregMozart
        December 31, 2015, 4:53 pm

        Look, at the end of the day, I think all of us want pretty much the same thing: namely, peace, safety and human rights for the most amount of people. Regardless of nationality. I just think your unquestioning support for Anti-Zionism results in mistaken support for leaders like Arafat, Abbas, Khaled Mashal and others who have amassed billions of $$$$ and Palestinians still suffer. (If you’re gonna tell me that Zionists are behind forcing the aid money to be funneled to Arafat and Mashal and they couldn’t reverse it, I’m gonna laugh.) Many of you are so deep in the ideology you can’t see that you’re doing the same thing over and over (focusing exclusively on Israel) and expect a different result. “Soon, soon”.

        It’s very sad for me to see Palestinians, among other people on the planet, having to pay the price for 1) ideology on both sides, 2) meddling by foreign powers, 3) power hungry leaders and cronies. Afghanis, Iraqis, Syrians, maybe Ukrainians, so many people around the world are facing similar circumstances, and it’s sad.

        “No, you lie. Israel should be a secular and democratic Israeli state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees.”

        I want Justice too. But the world is not perfect, I recognize that, and my priority is peace, safety and human rights for the most amount of people. But as far as fairness and justice, my recommendations are pretty similar to yours, except not applied exclusively to Israel:

        1) Both Israel and Jordan should become secular and democratic state for all its citizens, immigrants, expats, and refugees, including Jews who were expelled from East Jerusalem and other areas. It would be nice if Egypt became democratic, too. Get rid of stupid PLO and Likud. Throw off $$ meddling by USA etc. and democratically elect people who would get shit done.

        2) Israel and Jordan would both take responsibility for the West Bank, and cooperate. Jews and Arabs could settle freely and any violence would be put down equally, by the IDF or Jordanian forces. The people who *started* the violent attacks would be considered responsible, and the same law would be used for everyone.

        3) Palestinians should be simultaneously offered citizenship both by the country they were born in (or have lived in for the last 20-30 years), by Israel, and by Jordan. That way they can *actually choose* where they live, instead of being forced to relocate to Israel because it’s the only country that would offer them citizenship. (Sorry but screw everyone who wants to impose your ideology on all Palestinians by force.) We should have Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, agree to take responsibility and give a choice for people who were born there to stay there and make a life.

        4) Egypt and Israel should take responsibility for Gazans, same as Jordan and Israel do for the West Bank. Hopefully once Gaza sees how Palestinians live elsewhere, support for Hamas will drop, as it has before. The current Egyptian government is no friends with Hamas, so it would have to be one or the other. I think it’s obvious Gazans would live better once Hamas is replaced and the border crossings are opened.

        5) Palestinians should be recompensed for the loss of 700,000 refugees in the Nakba and Jews should be recompensed for the loss of those out of 900,000 refugees who had to leave all their possessions behind in Arab lands. (Don’t tell me they did it all voluntarily cause they just were so eager to go to Israel… btw 1/3 of them went to France, so they weren’t great Zionists were they.) Or better yet how about instead providing SECURITY so foreign companies can invest in Gaza resorts and oil, and companies that provide jobs to West Bank and Gaza residents, who would now be under Israel and Jordan. Forget the PLO/Fatah and their stupid agendas to build a state where they would rule.

        I don’t consider many of these points to be achievable because the governments are all playing a game of chicken about who will take the Palestinian refugees, also because they all want to hold on to power and use outside aggression to stir up support at home (both Hamas, Likud and now Abbas do this). And some have genuine concerns about demographic changes, including Israel and Jordan and Lebanon.

        However, I believe that instead of waiting for Israel only, we should be working on a regional solution to the Palestinian refugee issue. Otherwise if you don’t give Palestinians a choice, I don’t really think you care about Palestinians. You only care about “Anti-Zionism”, which makes you just another ideologue who opposes real solutions. Don’t wait another 50 years for YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS solution to happen. Maybe you won’t achieve perfect Justice but guess what, in this imperfect world you shouldn’t make people suffer for your “perfect communism” or “perfect anarcho capitalism” in order to implement real solutions for real people.

        HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 5:22 pm

        greg:

        your unquestioning support for Anti-Zionism results in mistaken support for leaders like Arafat, Abbas, Khaled Mashal and others who have amassed billions of $$$$ and Palestinians still suffer.

        you are diverting. besides, it’s not “support for anti zionism” it’s support of palestinians and resistance to zionism and it’s evil spawn:occupation (a word you rarely use, unless referencing “jordanian occupation”!). as in: your unquestioning support for palestinians results in “mistaken support for leaders like Arafat, Abbas, Khaled Mashal and others who have amassed billions of $$$$ and Palestinians still suffer.”

        that’s funny! or your unquestioning support resistance to Zionism results in “mistaken support for leaders like Arafat, Abbas, Khaled Mashal and others who have amassed billions of $$$$ and Palestinians still suffer.”

        arafat is dead. palestinians, for the most part, do not “support” abbas — nor does our resistance to zionism support abbas anyway. it’s irrelevant how much any palestinian leader is amassed unless that fortune would end the occupation if used otherwise, which it wouldn’t… nor is it the reason palestinians suffer. besides the overlording colonial rulers you support would not allow any democratic leader of or government of palestinian to thrive, the same way they’ve imprisoned and killed many palestinian leaders.

        Many of you are so deep in the ideology you can’t see that you’re doing the same thing over and over (focusing exclusively on Israel) and expect a different result. “Soon, soon”.

        you keep presenting these diverting band aides. you are so deep in the ideology of preserving zionism you can’t see that you’re doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result. nothing will change until the occupation ends. nothing. israel refuses to end it’s oppressive policies because they want all the land. making deals with them to co share “responsibility” on palestinian territory has been tried and failed, israel steals everything they touch. there will be a different result once bds becomes stronger and countries apply sanctions against israel.

        You only care about “Anti-Zionism”,

        i don’t ever even think in terms of anti zionism, i think in terms of resistance to bigorty, racism and oppression, which of course includes zionism.

        I don’t really think you care about Palestinians.

        i don’t care if you think i care. your concerned trolling is noted. do you know what concerned trolling is? someone who feigns concern but never budges from their position and continues to support the opposition. the concern is used like a soft cushy cloak covering up your support for oppression of the very people you feign concern for.

      • Mooser
        December 31, 2015, 5:56 pm

        “you are so deep in the ideology of preserving zionism you can’t see that you’re doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result.”

        Oh, I think “Greg” is happy with the results if the power of Zionism, and the commitment and support for Zionism by the Jewish people internationally, is treated as a constant in the argument, and not as a variable. If you do that, and of course, make the same equation that Zionism=Judaism, he’ll be happy, not matter what the discussion is about.

      • eljay
        December 31, 2015, 5:57 pm

        || GregMozart: Look, at the end of the day, I think all of us want pretty much the same thing: namely, peace, safety and human rights for the most amount of people. … ||

        I want justice, accountability and equality. You don’t.

        || … just think your unquestioning support for Anti-Zionism results in mistaken support for leaders like Arafat, Abbas, Khaled Mashal and others … ||

        My opposition to Zio-supremacism is not an endorsement of any Palestinian leader, and does not result in the mistaken support for any Palestinian leader.

        || … I want Justice too. … ||

        No, you want a “peace” that benefits Jewish supremacism in a supremacist “Jewish State” is as much as possible of Palestine.

        || … But as far as fairness and justice, my recommendations are pretty similar to yours … ||

        Your recommendations are those of a Zio-supremacist. They are not at all similar to mine.

        || … You only care about “Anti-Zionism”, which makes you just another ideologue who opposes real solutions. … ||

        I care about justice, accountability and equality. You do not.

        || … Maybe you won’t achieve perfect Justice … ||

        I don’t know what “perfect Justice” is other than a term Zio-supremacists use to disparage the notion of justice.

        I don’t expect to “achieve perfect Justice”. I expect people and nations to strive for the consistent and universal application of justice, accountability and equality. It’s a shame that that disgusts you.

        || … but guess what, in this imperfect world you shouldn’t make people suffer … ||

        I don’t cause anyone to suffer. Zio-supremacists, on the other hand, have been causing people to suffer for almost 70 years and show no sign of wanting to stop the suffering.

      • Mooser
        December 31, 2015, 6:15 pm

        “…you shouldn’t make people suffer for your “perfect communism” or “perfect anarcho capitalism” in order to implement real solutions for real people.”

        I didn’t know Mondo, or indeed, any of its commenters are advocating “perfect communism” or “perfect anarcho capitalism”. So why are those words in quotes?
        They appear nowhere else on this page, in the article or in comments.
        See the “about” page, “Greg Mozart”.

      • diasp0ra
        December 31, 2015, 6:51 pm

        @Greg

        “Do you also advocate the same for the potential Palestinian state? Perhaps it should stop being a religion-supremacist Muslim state? The population of the potential State of Palestine is currently 93% Muslim (with nearly 0% Jewish), but Israel is only 75% Jewish. Should the State of Palestine allow equal civil rights to everybody on par with Israel?”

        You’re using so many false equivalences it’s hurting my head.

        Show me how Palestine is a supremacist Muslim state. Do Muslims in Palestine have any advantages over non-Muslims? Does the Palestinian constitution prefer Muslims over non-Muslims? Are there discriminatory laws institutionalized that discriminate against non-Muslims?

        No, there aren’t. Under Palestinian law all Palestinians are equal. Under Israeli law Jews and non Jews are not equal.

        Everyone should be equal regardless of their ethnicity or religion or whatever. As long as they are citizens they should all be equal. I support a secular democratic state for all the people living in it equally. Israel does not. How are you not getting this? Or are you being difficult on purpose?

      • talknic
        December 31, 2015, 8:00 pm

        @ GregMozart – demonstrates how to dig a deeper hole.

        “I joined the site here posting my actual views.”

        You entered like a typical and almost instantly recognizable smarmy Ziobot

        “You can ask me anything”

        And you’ll answer honestly? OK. Why is this Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948 , the most important document relating to the recognition of Israel as a Sovereign state, NOT on any Israeli Government website?

        “Look, at the end of the day, I think all of us want pretty much the same thing: namely, peace, safety and human rights for the most amount of people”

        So Israel should withdraw from all non-Israeli territories. Withdraw for peace. Quite simple actually. http://wp.me/pDB7k-ZZ

        “I just think your unquestioning support for Anti-Zionism “

        In 1897, long before the Holocaust the Zionist Federation decided to colonize Palestine
        http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8632-jewish-colonial-trust-the-judische-colonialbank
        After having been given, completely gratis, more than half of the State of Palestine for the Jewish state, Israeli has continued to ILLEGALLY colonize non-Israeli territory. Illegal is a CRIME. What’s to like about CRIMINALS and their idiot supporters?

        ” Arafat, Abbas, Khaled Mashal and others who have amassed billions of $$$$ “

        Evidence? Meanwhile From the NY Times (SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED)
        “In total, the Fund estimates, the amounts diverted from the official budget from 1995 until 2000, when the diversions stopped, may have exceeded $898m. IMF officials say $799m was returned to the PA, with the difference accounted for by investment losses………the bulk of the money diverted from the budget – including all the Swiss bank accounts – was either given back or invested in companies that became part of the PIF, an assertion backed by the IMF”

        “If you’re gonna tell me that Zionists are behind forcing the aid money to be funneled to Arafat and Mashal and they couldn’t reverse it, I’m gonna laugh”

        Go ahead laugh at your own stupid assumption.
        1) http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2015/09/27/palestinians-getting-poorer-for-third-year-in-a-row
        2) http://www1.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Business/?id=3.0.2815346958

        “It’s very sad for me to see Palestinians”

        Save it for your next gullible pre-schoolers lecture

        Your points 1/2/3/4 are nonsense. First Israel would have to end occupation

        “5) Palestinians should be recompensed for the loss of 700,000 refugees in the Nakba “

        A) Most of them were non-Jewish Israeli citizens, not Palestinians
        http://pages.citebite.com/b3n4r7v9f8xit
        B) Israel simply cannot and has never been able to afford it
        http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&entity=FRUS.FRUS1948v05p2.p0792&id=FRUS.FRUS1948v05p2&isize=M

        “and Jews should be recompensed for the loss of those out of 900,000 refugees who had to leave all their possessions behind in Arab lands.”

        There are no longer any Jewish refugees! The Israeli government never pursued compensation on their behalf.

        ” (Don’t tell me they did it all voluntarily…)”

        Read the posts you stupid stupid person http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-ambassador-authoritarian#comment-159365

        “I don’t consider many of these points to be achievable “

        Yet you waste your time, our time and clog up the threads with your stupid ideas

        “However, I believe that instead of waiting for Israel only, we should be working on a regional solution to the Palestinian refugee issue”

        Why? Israel has the power to end the occupation and allow non-Jewish ISRAELI refugees RoR. Palestinian refugees could then return to Palestine. Israel prevents both from returning!

        “HAPPY NEW YEAR TO EVERYONE”

        ‘everyone’? Has the occupation ended? Living a life times of New Years under occupation and dispossession is so much fun.

        BTW http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-revelers-torn-about-new-years/

      • talknic
        December 31, 2015, 8:43 pm

        @ GregMozart “(continued. I tried to respond point by point, won’t make such long posts anymore)”

        Then you do. LOL

        “The difference between you and me is I equally criticize Israeli leaders AND Palestinian leaders and blame them for what happened, not just in Israel. You focus only on Israel.”

        The Palestinians didn’t ask to be colonized. The Palestinians don’t occupy or suppress Israelis.

        “There are several paths I can see that will lead closest to Justice, but none are achievable”

        Then stop wasting your time and ours.

        “One path is to make Jordan and Israel totally democratic, and each takes half of the refugees”

        Why?

        “So what is your solution?”

        Hold Israel to its legal obligations under International Law and the UN Charter = no threat to Israel or Jews

        “Jewish immigrants who have been persuaded into emigration to Palestine [most of Israel’s population] do not have the right to take part of the referendum”

        Still nothing about ethnic cleansing pal. Try something else, like being honest

        “And also where is the Justice and International Law, when Arab states rejected the UN partition plan, and sent their armies to attack Israel “

        Ziopuke doesn’t wash here buddy. The Israeli Government tells us the Arab states invaded “Palestine” http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/MFADocuments/Yearbook1/Pages/5%20Arab%20League%20declaration%20on%20the%20invasion%20of%20Pales.aspx

        And there are no UNSC resolutions against any Arab state for attempting to expel Israeli forces from territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”

        “… You keep blaming Israel, expect Israel to solve everything “

        The Palestinians didn’t ask to be colonized dispossessed or occupied

        “Realize for a second whether your *ideology* and the fatcat leaders you support might be partly responsible for what is now the longest-running refugee crisis in modern history”

        Uh? How? It’s Israel that has for almost 68 years refused to adhere to the law, not the Arab states who have for some 68 years generously hosted refugees from Israel’s 1948 ethnic cleansing program

      • oldgeezer
        December 31, 2015, 8:50 pm

        @greg

        Yes you are being bullied. Dont let go of that victim mentality. It is the core of all you do.

        No the nazis werent protecting germany while slaughtering jews. Israel is not defending usrael it is defending theft and occupation.

        The imf audit of the p.a. showed funds properly spent and accounted for with minir exceptions which have been repaid. Typical zionist slander and projection. Care to provide a shortlist if israeli leaders not convicted of crimes?

        There were no 900,000 jewish refugees from arab countries. Not pure fantasy but straight out lies on your part.

        As usual your solutions include israel keeping its ill gotten gains and arab countries paying for istaeli malfeasance.

        And your suggestion also dont consider palestinian wishes. We will just dispose of them with a choice agreeable to ziosupremacists.

        You rage on too much. Too much to respond to. You are not a liberal in any sense. Even with a kind slant you are pure tribalist.

        Justice and freedom for palestinian victims of israeli
        crimes.

        Happy new year to all except those who keep their boots on palestinian necks.

        Health and safety to all.

      • talknic
        December 31, 2015, 10:26 pm

        GregMozart <" I’m a lying nazi apologist, Jews are not a people, Israel is illegitimate, Jordan acted better towards Jews, Jewish expulsion is totally normal, and expelled people always come back"

        If you say so Greg. No one else has. However, you’re typical of an Israeli propagandist

        //@Mooser “And you can take that “self-determination” back to the Balkans, “Greg”. “Self-determination” doesn’t really determining, inventing yourself a nationality, in order to take advantage of a situation.”
        @RoHa “Jews do not have a right to self determination qua Jews.””//

        “From this it sounds like you deny that Jews are even a people”

        As a matter of course IF you Ziotwist what has been said.

        ” It’s not an invented concept, it’s from the Jewish holy books, which both Christians and Muslims also reference.”

        A human invented concept. Writ by the hand of …. humans

        “It’s very hard to convert to Judaism”

        Bullsh*t. All one needs do is follow the basic tenets of Judaism. Beyond that it’s no one elses business

        “… once you’re Jewish, you can’t become non-Jewish”

        Bullsh*t. A person Jewish by religion, I.e., a convert not born of a Jewish mother can drop Judaism and take up another religion or no religion at all

        “If indeed it was easy to get into and Judaism was, like Christianity and Islam, numbering > 1 billion, then it wouldn’t be “a people”. The biological component described in “sons of Israel” would be irrelevant”

        It’s always been irrelevant nonsense, conversion doesn’t alter DNA, same today http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y#Jews-are-a-race

        “… Jews need a state which they can run to, and can back them”

        They’ve had one for 67 years. Now if Israel would only get out of all non-Israeli territories for once.

        ” So do Palestinians”

        Only Israel is stopping that from happening, no one else

        “I wished Jordan could have been the home state for Palestinians, being ALREADY majority-Palestinian for 70 years”

        Only the people who lived in the territory that became Transjordan had a right to automatic citizenship in Jordan, they’re all Jordanian. People who lived outside that area did not. Citizens of the West Bank under Jordanian Sovereignty from 1948 until the signing of the Israeli Peace Treaty are no longer Jordanian, they’re Palestinian. Neither Palestinian or non-Jewish Israeli refugees in Jordan are Jordanian citizens.

        // @talknic “ .. Citizens of the West Bank which was legally annexed to Jordan had Jordanian citizenship as a matter of course.”//

        ” That double standard again. At the time, most including the Arab League would disagree with you. link to en.wikipedia.org …”

        Wikipedia by its own editorial rules is only third hand opinion. Here are Jewish Israeli sources citing amongst other things, the Arab states’ ruling on the Jordanian annexation of the West Bank
        http://www.jcpa.org.il/art/knesset6.htm
        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/legsess.html (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950)

        ” In fact Jordan was also set up by Western colonial powers (British), as a monarchy with a king from Saudi Arabia! “

        Irrelevant. None of Israel’s first leaders were from the region. Only one who signed the Israel Declaration of statehood was actually from the region http://wp.me/pDB7k-1cE

        “But if the government isn’t Zionists, they are totally legal and cool”

        If you say so. No one else has.

        Say… Why would anyone but the Zionist Movement‘s state have a Zionist government? BTW what non-Zionist regimes are not legal under International Law/UN Charter?

        “More justifications for Jordanian action follows:”

        //@talknic “From the moment Jordan joined the UN, the west Bank was a part of the State of Jordan, a UN Member and High Contracting Power”
        @talknic “All manner of destruction happens in a war.””//

        None of which you have disproven

        //@talknic “It’s NORMAL for states at war to intern or expel people who might be allies of their enemies. It’s also normal to reinstate them after hostilities … etc …”//

        “First of all, this was happening over the next 19 years, not during 1948”

        A) Jordan and Israel were at war from 1948 until the signing of the Peace Treaty
        B) Israeli emergency Law from 1948 (still current) forbade Israeli citizens and residents from entering enemy states

        ” The double standard runs high. So it is “NORMAL for states at war to intern or expel people who might be allies of their enemies”? You support Japanese internment camps? And no, the expulsions are usually NOT reversed. For example: link to en.wikipedia.org, link to books.google.com “

        Pointing to abnormal situations doesn’t prove anything pal. The instances I cited DID allow return and re-instatement. It is now a matter of Law under International Conventions on human rights.

        ” Palestinians link to en.wikipedia.org “

        Wikipedia is third hand opinion. The talk pages offer far better well sourced perspectives, especially on the I/P issue
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait#Exodus_not_an_expulsion

        ” and of course my own people the Jews, over and over: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/expelled.htm

        Citing instances PRIOR to International Conventions of Human Rights does not disprove anything I’ve written

        //@zaid “I am a Palestinian refugee , i am a against Arab countries giving Palestinians their Citizenship, and i support the right of return, and i don’t have to behave or act in a certain way to be granted that right.”//

        “Great! And you should fight for your rights. And all about all the people who DID and DO want citizenship and equal rights in the countries they’ve been born in and lived in their whole life?”

        The Palestinians aren’t asking for citizenship in foreign Arab countries who’ve hosted them as refugees

        “If a one state solution can be built in peace, great.”

        It would be the end of the Jewish state as such. Unless of course Ziostyle ethnic cleansing takes place

        ” From what I read of the British Mandate to create a home for Jews and Arabs together, it was doomed to fail. Example:

        “Samuel tried to establish self-governing institutions in Palestine, as required by the mandate, but was frustrated by the refusal of the Arab leadership to co-operate with any institution which included Jewish participation.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#History_of_Palestine_under_the_British_Mandate

        The article section starts out with bullsh*t. There was no mandate before 1922! The article continues and after Samuel appointed Mohammad Amin al-Husseini institutions were formalized!

        “… tell me then, what is the one way to “justice”.”

        Adherence to the Law. That’s why Law exists

        “Why should the state of Israel exist at all?”

        Good question. It was after all achieved thru a litany of Zionist lies http://wp.me/pDB7k-Yx

        “Should it be dismantled in the name of “justice”? “

        Why not? It’s happened to other states https://www.google.com.au/search?q=serbia%20former%20yugoslavia

        “What happens to its residents? What is your position? I have asked you if it’s the same as the Ayatollah Khamein”

        You lied about the Ayatollah

        “How many more generations have to pay for your idea of “Justice”? Oh, that’s right, the end of Israel is “soon”.”

        Israel could end its occupation of non Israeli territories. After all the Palestinians have offered to cede to Israel 78% of Palestine for peace http://pages.citebite.com/e9p5s8u2yhcd

        Israel refused. Preferring to build more illegal facts on the ground, preferring to dispossess more non-Jews from non Israeli territories

      • RoHa
        January 1, 2016, 4:08 am

        “@RoHa “Jews do not have a right to self determination qua Jews.””

        From this it sounds like you deny that Jews are even a people. From the comments I’ve seen from annie I’m pretty sure she disagrees with you, as do almost all Jews.”

        Annie and I do not agree on everything. Hell, I can’t even persuade her to use the shift key. But disagreeing with me, whether done by Annie or by almost all Jews, is no guarantee of being right.

        “What constitutes a people is difficult, but if you do a Wikipedia search on link to en.wikipedia.org you will find they are also a Pan Ethnic group, as are Russians, etc. they are united by language, customs, traditions, etc. that make it easy and productive for them to coexist and build together.”

        And given the differences in language, etc., between, say, Moroccan Jews and Polish Jews, it is difficult to see that “The Jews” are a people in that sense. But it doesn’t matter whether they are or are not.

        When “self determination” means “the moral right of a group to jointly decide on the political arrangements they will live under, and especially the right for a group to establish an independent state for themselves”, “peoples” do not have that right.

        I argued this at length here, concentrating on the moral arguments.

        http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/facebook-counterrevolution-jews-and-arabs-cant-live-together#comment-320088

        So far no apologist for Zionism has presented either a counter argument or an effective criticism of my arguments.

        Commenter Hostage has argued, from a legal perspective, that “self determination of peoples” applies to all the legal residents of a territory that is not part of an independent country, and does not apply to “peoples” in the sense you are using.

        I used to have links to his most important posts, but, since MW buggered up updated the format of the site, they no longer work.

        The best I can offer you is this.

        http://mondoweiss.net/profile/hostage

        Put “self determination” in the search field, and go through the results. Not everything will be immediately relevant, but it will be educational and character-building.

        “I said that Jews need a state which they can run to, and can back them.”

        Of course, Australian Jews do have such a state. It is called Australia.

        Maybe they do need another, but if it has to be at the expense of Palestinians (and it seems that it does) then they should do without.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 1, 2016, 12:40 pm

        roha, i can’t believe you fell for that little diversion/sidestep/false-equivalence argument greg made with his ‘self determination/peoplehood’ argument. and using an insinuation of my so called beliefs to back it up this diversion was quite the slick move. me, i’m not really down with the idea of a non regional based ‘nation of people’ (which is much different than recognizing a majority of american jews might support the notion). but the idea members of a so called ‘nation’ of this nature deserves a ‘selfness’ with a shared common determination manifesting itself on a piece of land (where most of them don’t even live) is absurd. there’s a big difference between ‘jews don’t exist’ and ‘jews don’t exist as one nation of people’.

        as an aside there’s quite a battle going on over at wiki on the definition of nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation as it is continually morphing. the newest addition i noticed since the last time i visited (added dec 9th) was the addition of this prominent opening in the 2nd paragraph:

        According to Joseph Stalin: “a nation is not a racial or tribal, but a historically constituted community of people;” “a nation is not a casual or ephemeral conglomeration, but a stable community of people”; “a nation is formed only as a result of lengthy and systematic intercourse, as a result of people living together generation after generation”; and, in its entirety: “a nation is a historically constituted, stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, economic life, and psychological make-up manifested in a common culture.”[3]

        lol, dare one agree with joseph stalin!

        this 1995 book on nationalism Edited by John Hutchinson and Anthony Smith, oxford paperback books https://global.oup.com/academic/product/nationalism-9780192892607?cc=us&lang=en&

        Achieving prevalence as an ideology in the political and social ferment of late 18th-century Europe and America, nationalism only recently became the subject of scholarly debate, producing a truly prodigious amount of writing.

      • echinococcus
        January 1, 2016, 9:58 am

        Calling bullshit again!

        Mozart or whatever the fancy name says (a thank you to RoHa for pointing out the jewel in the pile of logorrhea):
        they are united by language, customs, traditions

        If so, I challenge you to bring one (1) single element of customs, language, culture, cooking, style of hair, vicious or virtuous preferences, (heck, even of “racial features” if you belong to those who believe that shit) that is not strictly religious and liturgical, common to the Ostyiddish, the Western European Jews, the Sefardí proper, the Western and Eastern Mizrahi, the Bukharis, the Siberians, the Falasha, the Romaniotes, the Romans, and so on and so forth. A single one.

        Any other defenders of the “Jewish peoplehood” nonsense are welcome to participate, too.

      • Dan
        January 1, 2016, 11:59 am

        @Talknic

        “Why is this Letter From the Agent of the Provisional Government of Israel to the President of the United States, May 15, 1948 , the most important document relating to the recognition of Israel as a Sovereign state, NOT on any Israeli Government website?”

        You’ll find it on the following Israel Gov’t website. Open Document 3, which contains the full contents of the letter.

        http://www.archives.gov.il/ArchiveGov_Eng/Publications/ElectronicPirsum/TrumanRecognition/

      • talknic
        January 1, 2016, 1:02 pm

        Dan
        January 1, 2016, 11:59 am

        Gracias.

        Impeccable source http://www.archives.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/BD240CA5-379D-4FAE-81A8-069902AD1E7F/0/Truman3.pdf

        The InterNet’s wunnerful

      • RoHa
        January 1, 2016, 6:52 pm

        “i can’t believe you fell for that little diversion/sidestep/false-equivalence argument greg made with his ‘self determination/peoplehood’ argument”

        I don’t see it as a diversion. It seems to me that an important defence of Zionism is the argument “Jews are a people and have, via self-determination, a right to set up a Jewish State”. Even if it is not the centre of the discussion, I still think it should be dealt with.

        ” and using an insinuation of my so called beliefs to back it up this diversion was quite the slick move. ”

        Very cunning, I thought. I decided not to defend your views, since you can and will do that for yourself, but simply to set the move aside.

        And it is certainly true that we do not agree on everything. I still haven’t persuaded you to use the shift key.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 1, 2016, 8:32 pm

        I don’t see it as a diversion. It seems to me that an important defence of Zionism is the argument “Jews are a people and have, via self-determination

        ok, well hear me out then because his slickness rolled right past you. he opened with:

        A lot here to respond to, but space in these comments is very limited. I will try to be as brief and on point as I can. I do not attack any of you as individuals, and I would have liked to focus as adults on just the issues.

        hear that? then he doesn’t address “the issues”, just launches into another point scoring shpeel about how he’s only sad our “devotion …. perpetuates real Palestinian suffering for decades” and props up failed leaders etc etc just sweeps away all points in the responses. and his 16 line preface only serves as a long blaming ad hominem.

        so let’s review his response to you. he DOES NOT address “Jews’ rights to self determination’, a claim he made and a claim you responded to (thoroughly). he skipped over your response completely and said it sounds like you deny that Jews are even a people , then argued that instead. launched into another shpeel about how denying ‘jews as a people’ was a denial of (here it is again) “Jewish right to self determination”!

        so it lands him back at the accusatory square one, him having never responded to what you previously explained was not a right qua Jews. it’s the classic bait ‘n switch. you even told him “Before you write another word on the topic, go to Hostage’s profile, enter “self-determination” in the search field, and read his posts on the topic.”

        did he? no. contrary to his condescending allegation of “I would have liked to focus as adults on just the issues”, he avoids your response to this issue like the plague (and he didn’t address it) because he’s more comfortable discussing the peoplehood talking pt. he’s out of his comfort zone discussing this ‘right’ of ‘jewish self determination’.

      • RoHa
        January 1, 2016, 10:36 pm

        “he avoids your response to this issue like the plague (and he didn’t address it)”

        They all do. They repeat this slogan of “Jewish self determination” without any justification or explanation. It is supposed to be a magic formula.

        “because he’s more comfortable discussing the peoplehood talking pt. he’s out of his comfort zone discussing this ‘right’ of ‘jewish self determination’.”

        And that’s why I briefly questioned the “peoplehood” bit and then brushed it aside as irrelevant and went back to focus on the “self determination” issue.

        When they won’t answer the question, ask it again. You might never get an answer, but you show that they do not have an answer.

      • tree
        January 2, 2016, 11:35 pm

        @diasp0ra “Greg, do you think Zionists have more right to a home than Palestinians?”

        That is a very good question.

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-ambassador-authoritarian#comment-159365

        And then he goes on for several paragraphs avoiding giving an answer to the “very good question”. Why is the question good, but you can’t give an answer, Greg?

      • echinococcus
        January 3, 2016, 7:48 am

        My, my, Mister Mozart –the most prolific author of the decade if not the century, and now unable to utter a single itsy-bitsy word to prove what you said about Jewish peoplehood!
        One worries about your ecxretory functions.
        Just one word is enough. Bring, as I have repeatedly called you on your BS, even one single (1) cultural, linguistic, ot absolutely any element common to “Jews”, from the Caspian to Ethiopia to Spain to Central Asia that is not strictly religious-liturgical, and walk away with the cigar, or teddy bear, or whatever your preferred prize!
        Better, any one here entertaining ideas if Jewish people hood can just drop the word, and heshe gets the prize, for you.
        This is the 3rd post… I’ll wait.

    • Citizen
      December 30, 2015, 5:37 am

      And then you can point to US nuking Japan and carpet bombing Dresden to justify your Samson Option! No problem at all.

      • rosross
        December 30, 2015, 10:13 pm

        The second atomic bomb dropped on Japan was and is the greatest war crime in history and the first is the second greatest war crime in history.

    • zaid
      December 30, 2015, 11:45 pm

      Greg,

      “after the Romans, Jews were still a majority there until it was conquered by Christians and Muslims.”

      No they weren’t, it was majority Christian.

      ” When Muslims were in power, Al Aqsa was built in 705 on the site where the Jewish Temple had been.”

      No it was not, the area was deserted and nothing was there when the Muslims built Alaqsa compound in 637.

      The Alaqsa mount is not the temple mount and it never was.

      The temple mount described by Josephus and mentioned in the Mishnah was less than third of the current mount.

      “Then Crusaders pillaged their way and took over the area. Selah ad Din Ibn Ayyub won it back from the Crusaders, and Jews lived under Muslim rule”

      You ignored 463 year before the crusades came, in which most of the christian and Jewish population of Palestine converted to Islam as documented by historians.

      “and Jews lived under Muslim rule, in relative peace and security as individuals!”

      Wait a minute, i thought that Jews were expelled in 70 AC to Europe and that the Khazar theory is myth!

      So the expulsion and the 2000 year wait for the return was a lie after all.

      “And yet, in the following centuries, Muslims slowly settled more and more of the land, and Jews lived as dhmmi that had to pay Jawali, a form of Jizya tax in Jerusalem.”

      Muslims didnot settle anywhere significantly, the population converted to Islam.Period.

      “So was this “settlements and ethnic cleansing” by the people in power? Whatever you want to call it, Jews never attacked civilians to get their own state. They were allowed to live their lives and serve God in peace.”

      The first Jewish state were founded on piles of dead Canaanite children and civilians (Ancestors of modern Palestinians) and the Modern Jewish state were founded after decades of terrorism in the days of the British Mandate of Palestine and it continues until this day by the hands of the IDF and the settlers.

      ” Jordanian forces destroyed Jewish communities and synagogues, turning them into chicken coops or razing them.”

      Elaborate and give numbers and Evidence or spare us the nonsense.

      The west bank according to the UN partition plan was 99% Arab and less than 1% Jewish.

      “In Hebron, where today the IDF has a shameful apartheid situation, there was a big Jewish community, but they were massacred in 1929 before Israel ever was declared (as usual because of Al Aqsa rumors).”

      By big you mean 1% right.

      Palestine was 99% Muslim/Christian in the ottoman era before European settlers started coming in 1882, and that is the ONLY fact in the whole conflict , all the rest is just mythologies and theories about what might have been, and whose ancestors and whose descendants.

      We have the facts, you have the theory and that is why Palestinian (exclusively) have the moral high ground an the historical right.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 12:58 am

        thank you so much zaid, for your patience and strength above all else.

      • zaid
        December 31, 2015, 1:39 am

        Thank you Annie for all that you do here in Mondoweiss.

        I feel humbled and grateful when i see people who doesnot share any ethnic,religious, language..etc tie with the Palestinians ,but yet they dedicate themselves to help and support their plight .

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 4:36 pm

        oh, that’s so beyond sweet zaid. de nada, really. it’s my honor. i really believe none of us are free until we all are. i believe palestinians are holding up the world, so it’s really the least i can do. it’s you shouldering the burden for the plight of humanity.

    • Mooser
      December 31, 2015, 12:21 am

      “While the Nakba is real, this whole “Zionists” thing is dehumanizing Israelis.”

      Yup, but the Zionists don’t care, do they?

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 12:45 am

        unfortunately this whole ” “Zionists” thing ” is real and totally dehumanizing Palestinians as it always has. such a pity we shine a light on and expose that dehumanization/not. it’s farcical the exposure of zionist dehumanizing palestinians is framed as the dehumanization of zionists. we don’t make this stuff up. the bs of the colonialist/hasbara clan is as thick as thieves.

      • Bornajoo
        December 31, 2015, 4:17 pm

        “Thank you Annie for all that you do here in Mondoweiss”

        Allow me to humbly ditto that Zaid

        Dear Annie, wishing you and the whole Mondoweiss team a great 2016. Thank you all for everything you do.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 4:39 pm

        bornajoo, you light up my life. such a wonderful person in every way. thank you for everything and wishing you the best in 2016. we’ll share it together for another year ok?

    • Maximus Decimus Meridius
      December 31, 2015, 5:06 am

      “Well @Maximus it might surprise you to know that his son Seyed’s last name is also Khomeini and he is also an Ayatollah”

      It would indeed surprise me, ‘greg’, since both of Khomeini’s sons have also been dead for several years. And neither of them was called ‘Seyed’.

      Want to have another try?

      • Bornajoo
        December 31, 2015, 5:06 pm

        You bet Annie. Thanks for the kind words which I’m not sure I deserve. But there is no doubt that you do.

      • Annie Robbins
        December 31, 2015, 5:57 pm

        lol, you definitely deserve them bornajoo ;) thanks again.

    • zaid
      December 31, 2015, 5:02 pm

      “Islamization of East Jerusalem under Jordanian occupation is what occurred during the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank between 1948–1967, when Jordan sought to alter the demographics and landscape of the city to enhance its Muslim character. At this time, all Jewish residents were expelled, and restrictions were imposed on the Christian population that led many to leave the city.”

      The city of Jerusalem was 99% Arab in ottoman era , all Jewish immigration to it after 1882 was illegal.

    • echinococcus
      January 2, 2016, 1:40 am

      So, Greg Mozart or Haydn or so, where is the answer?
      Still waiting.
      One single word is enough, no need to write another illegible 10-volume Big Russian Novel.
      You were challenged to bring one single cultural, linguistic etc. element common to all “Jewish” populations that is not strictly religious or liturgical.
      One word is enough.
      If you prefer, anyone here supporting the “Jewish peoplehood” nonsense can answer in your place.

  14. echinococcus
    December 29, 2015, 10:14 pm

    “The Nazi charges of course go to the treatment of Palestinians.”
    If so, then wrong. Nazism is not limited to racial supremacism.
    Zionism, born from the same pod as Nazism, has developed into a clone of it, except for the presence of a lurid simulacre of democracy exclusively limited to Master Race insiders.

    • Citizen
      December 30, 2015, 5:40 am

      Makes me wonder what in the future will be Israel’s decision to invade Poland and/or Russia? Or will Israel know when to stop, unlike the Nazis led by Hitler?

      • echinococcus
        December 30, 2015, 12:28 pm

        “Future”? That’s a good one.
        Ben Gurion had voiced the official program in 1937:
        ” “The boundaries of Zionist aspiration include southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today’s Jordan, all of Cis-Jordan and the Sinai.”
        So we had some 50,000 murders committed invading neighbors, then doing it again and destroying the Lebanon.
        But did the next generation know where to stop? It’s all riskless and free now.
        Given that “America is a thing you can move very easily”, it has become absolutely boundless. Yinon Plan. PNAC. Obama. Iraq, Libya, Syria down; Iran paralyzed, Yemen going down.
        Why should they stop?

        “Future” was a nice wisecrack.

  15. Rodneywatts
    December 30, 2015, 3:46 am

    A seriously good article which tandems so well with Annie’s http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/diplomatic-showdown-settler I really do believe that 2016 will see more and more of the general public appreciating that Israel has truly become a fascist regime with links that go way back to WWII, or earlier, when Stern tried to do a deal with the nazis to help kick us Brits out of Palestine.
    I still remember the enormous sympathy for the formation of the state of Israel in Britain, because of the Holocaust, and most of us were effectively supporters of zionism. However, coming from a military family with friends who served in Palestine I remember a kindly ‘uncle’ indicating that some Jews had participated in terrrorism. Of course he was referring particularly to Irgun and lehi (Stern) gangs and their atrocities including the killing and hanging up of two sergeants’ boobytrapped bodies (known as the sergeants affair). Lenni Brenner, referred to in a comment above by @Keith has written accurately about the true nature of zionism.

  16. Misterioso
    December 30, 2015, 10:53 am

    Excellent article by Miko Peled:

    http://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/third-intifada/294-what-is-israel-supposed-to-do.html

    “What is Israel supposed to do?” by Miko Peled

    American Herald Tribute, December 28/15

    • diasp0ra
      December 30, 2015, 11:39 am

      @Misterioso

      Thanks for the article, it is indeed excellent. There is always an excuse or a threat or something scary that “forces” Israel to act the way it does without ever inspecting Israel’s role in creating such threats in the first place.

    • Rodneywatts
      December 30, 2015, 3:14 pm

      Yes, excellent!

    • rosross
      December 30, 2015, 10:22 pm

      Peled is always good value and a voice of reason.

      I think what is often overlooked is that Israel is a ‘creature’ not just of its own making but that of its so-called friends, who have acted in fact as enemies, and the international community, which has allowed it to become the abomination that it is.

      If Israel were a human being they would have been committed long ago, for their own sake and the safety of everyone else. But it is a State, not a human being, and it has support from the US and from many Jews. It is an artificial construct which could not survive without the financial support it receives and it certainly could not commit the human rights atrocities and abuse of the Palestinians that it does, without support, by omission and commission, but most countries in the world.

      Israel is incapable of doing anything but what it has always done – create enemies! The raison d’etre for Israel was and is, threat and deadly enemies who can ‘justify’ the war Israel wages against the Palestinians and the region.

      Without enemies Israel cannot be a victim. Without being a victim Israel must be responsible. Being responsible means observing justice, rule of law, human rights and democratic principles.

      The world at large must force Israel, as it forced South Africa, to a democratic state with equal rights for indigenous and coloniser alike; equal rights for Jews and non-Jews. Only bigoted Israelis could reject such an outcome and they can, and no doubt will, emigrate back to the countries they or their parents or grandparents left.

  17. Mooser
    December 30, 2015, 3:10 pm

    “Greg Mozart” I want to thank you for casting the Israeli-Palestine issues in such a new light. Why I never thought about it like that before. Of course, people who once lived, and in fact always have lived in Palestine called themselves Jews. And there are lots of people in the world who call themselves “Jews” so they should get that land. Cause they are “Jews”.

    Gosh, when you put it that way, it’s irrefutable! No one can deny that they are Jews!

  18. Sibiriak
    December 31, 2015, 12:59 am

    RoHa: One much-ignored option was to go to Palestine as real refugees, grateful to the people of Palestine…
    ———————————-

    No, that was not a real option. Arab Palestinians opposed anything but a trickle of Jewish immigration. They adamantly and justifiably opposed the kind of massive Jewish immigration which would have been necessary to escape Nazi genocide and its aftermath.
    ————————-
    …and support the Arabs in their efforts to form an independent, democratic state in Palestine, offering equal rights to all citizens.

    Again, not realistic. Palestinian Arabs were not interested in state with a huge numbers of European Jews, equal rights for everyone or not. They wanted an Arab State in all of mandatory Paletine. The Arab nationalism in Palestine was an ethno-cultural nationalism, not a culturally-neutral, European-immigrant- welcoming civic nationalism.

    • RoHa
      December 31, 2015, 10:19 am

      I wasn’t suggesting it as a sole option for all the refugees from Europe, but rather as an option for those few leftovers who missed out on the preferred destinations of Australia, Canada, Argentina, the USA, and so forth.

    • Philemon
      January 2, 2016, 7:59 pm

      Sibiriak: “The Arab nationalism in Palestine was an ethno-cultural nationalism, not a culturally-neutral, European-immigrant- welcoming civic nationalism. ”

      How the hell do you know? You were there and they all confided in you because you were so special? The Palestinians seem pretty hospitable to me.

      • Sibiriak
        January 12, 2016, 4:47 am

        Philemon: How the hell do you know?
        ———————

        From listening to Palestinian voices, reading Palestinian documents, studying the history, etc. On this question, I particularly recommend Rashid Khalidi’s “Palestinian Identity: The Construction of Modern National Consciousness”

        For example, writing about growing Palestinian national sentiments in the pre-WW1 period, Khalidi tells us:

        Looming behind all of these concerns is the fear, expressed in dozens of articles, that the Arabs in Palestine would one day be reduced to a minority in the country, and become strangers in their own land. This, it was feared, would be the result of the Zionists’ achievement of their objective of winning exclusive sovereignty over Palestine, an aim frequently denied by defenders of Zionism, but perceived as being the real, unavowed aim of the movement by most Arab writers at this time.

        ———————

        The Palestinians seem pretty hospitable to me.

        Sure. But not in the sense of being hospitable to the idea of being a minority in their homeland, nor to the idea of giving up their aspirations for political self-determination as a people (ethno-cultural group). My point is, Palestinians didn’t simply want equal rights in a state that could end up being majority Jewish if Zionist immigration (i.e. colonization) plans went unopposed— they wanted a Palestinian Arab-majority state (or at times, self-determination within another larger Arab state), within which their culture, their language, their religion would be predominant (with the rights of minorities respected).

        That’s what I get from reading Khalidi and many other Palestinian historians and writers. If you have a different view, by all means, present it.

      • Philemon
        January 16, 2016, 10:38 pm

        Sibiriak quotes Khalidi: “Looming behind all of these concerns is the fear, expressed in dozens of articles, that the Arabs in Palestine would one day be reduced to a minority in the country, and become strangers in their own land. This, it was feared, would be the result of the Zionists’ achievement of their objective of winning exclusive sovereignty over Palestine, an aim frequently denied by defenders of Zionism, but perceived as being the real, unavowed aim of the movement by most Arab writers at this time.”

        Sibiriak, it would be one thing if the Palestinians at the time were just being paranoid chicken littles about it, but Zionists were pretty clear and not the least bit unavowed about their aims in various publications, and actions, despite those aims being “frequently denied.”

        Sibiriak says: “My point is, Palestinians didn’t simply want equal rights in a state that could end up being majority Jewish if Zionist immigration (i.e. colonization) plans went unopposed— they wanted a Palestinian Arab-majority state (or at times, self-determination within another larger Arab state), within which their culture, their language, their religion would be predominant (with the rights of minorities respected). ”

        My point is that Palestinians had legitimate fears of ethnic cleansing. Not that the refugees would “outbreed” them in an equal democratic state, with the rights, as you say, of minorities respected. But that the “refugees” would be numerous enough and have enough fire-power and outside support to do what they did: that is, do some ethnic cleansing and establish a completely non-equal and non-democratic state.

        The Palestinians were looking forward to independence, sure, but I just don’t get the feeling from what you’ve quoted and what I’ve read that they would not have hospitably welcomed refugees who were not looking to, you know, take over.

        There are always limitations to the number of refugees any state can accommodate – it depending, of course, on its economics and resources. Palestine was probably near its limits with regard to Jewish-European refugees already. It was obviously not sufficiently equipped for self-defense, alas.

      • Philemon
        January 16, 2016, 10:56 pm

        Sibiriak writes: “My point is, Palestinians didn’t simply want equal rights in a state that could end up being majority Jewish if Zionist immigration (i.e. colonization) plans went unopposed…”

        Well, maybe they had hoped for equal rights, but I bet they doubted they’d get them. And how right they were.

  19. Maximus Decimus Meridius
    December 31, 2015, 5:12 am

    I’ve just noticed that ‘greg:’

    a) doesnt’ know the difference between Khomeini and Khamenei, as evidenced by the Twitter site he linked to (clue, the former has been dead over a quarter of a century);
    b) thinks the latter is the former’s son, even though both of Khomeini’s sons have been dead for several years (I guess all Iranians are the same to him);
    c) thinks ‘Seyed’ is a name when in fact it is a title. He probably also thinks Merkel’s first name is ‘Frau’.

    In other words, we’ve got ourselves a particularly clueless newcomer here.

    • talknic
      December 31, 2015, 5:27 am

      Why is it apologists for the Zionist colonization of Palestine are so adept at showing themselves to be blithering idiots?

      • Kay24
        December 31, 2015, 7:13 am

        Maybe because smart, intelligent folks, are not recruited to do the dirty work of hasbara?
        It is far easier for blithering idiots to simply regurgitate the hasbara propaganda, without deep thought to what they are saying. Smart people research and question, while blithering idiots simply spew and believe anything.

      • Mooser
        December 31, 2015, 10:44 pm

        “Why is it apologists for the Zionist colonization of Palestine are so adept at showing themselves…”

        Because, (and you may notice this is common to the entire herd of ilk), they lack any idea of what being accountable or responsible for their words means. As you may have noticed, they consider it an affront, an unreasonable burden.

      • GregMozart
        January 4, 2016, 7:16 pm

        I am indeed responsible for my words, as are you. There are tons of contradictions in the responses to me, but I would like to at least clarify one:

        rossross said:
        “The attempt to define Jews as a literal people, beyond the religious metaphor used by many religions, was invented by Zionism as a ploy to ‘up the numbers’ in Occupied Palestine, to disenfranchise the indigenous Palestinians on the basis that Europeans were racially superior and therefore a European who could dredge up a grandparent, great-grandparent or perhaps more, who once practised Judaism, was racially superior to any Palestinian.”

        “RoHa” said:
        “Jews do not have a right to self determination qua Jews. The right of self-determination (if there can be such a thing) is not a right for ethnic/religious/hobby groups.”

        So when I began my responses here I said

        “From this it sounds like you deny that Jews are even a people. From the comments I’ve seen from annie I’m pretty sure she disagrees with you, as do almost all Jews.”

        talknic responds:
        “As a matter of course IF you Ziotwist what has been said.”

        Mooser responded to me:
        “No, you are saying this completely made-up nationality called “Jews” (which you can’t even define, as a nationality) has the right to come and take it from somebody else.”

        So which is it? Do you think Jews aren’t a real people, Ahkenazi Jews are really descended from the Khazars like in Shlomo Sand’s book “The Invention of the Jewish People” and Zionists were just colonialists who made up the Jewish people in order to steal Palestine from Arabs? Don’t let me “ziotwist” anything, and just make it clear! Are Jews an invented made-up people?

        YoniFalic wrote:
        “The State of Israel could be dismantled and the invader population could be relocated within 6 months to a year.”

        So which of you support this as the favored solution, and which of you are talking about the international consensus solution? When you say “end the occupation” does that refer to Israel currently occupying Gaza and Ramallah, or do you mean Israel is also occupying Haifa? Be clear!

        You say we could “relocate” the invader population, and when I ask specifically if your plan is ethnic cleansing like this: https://twitter.com/khamenei_ir/status/531366667377717248

        “Jewish immigrants who have been persuaded into emigration to Palestine [most of Israel’s population] do not have the right to take part of the referendum. The ensuing government, which comes into power among the original Palestinians, once settled will decide whether the non-Palestinian emigrants who have immigrated to this country over the past [how many?] years can continue living in Palestine or *should return to their home countries*”

        Ignoring the fact that many people were born in Israel and do not have “home countries” to go to, I asked if this ethnic cleansing is what is being proposed…

        talknic again denies:
        “Still nothing about ethnic cleansing pal. Try something else, like being honest”

        So, take responsibility for your words and be clear for once.

      • RoHa
        January 4, 2016, 9:29 pm

        “There are tons of contradictions in the responses to me,”

        The commenters on MW are not a homogenous group, so this should not be a surprise.

        “Are Jews an invented made-up people?”

        Maybe, but irrelevant to my point. My point is that Jews do not have a right to self determination qua Jews.

        If you think otherwise, look at the arguments and produce counter arguments.

    • diasp0ra
      December 31, 2015, 8:45 am

      “c) thinks ‘Seyed’ is a name when in fact it is a title. He probably also thinks Merkel’s first name is ‘Frau’.”

      Okay, I laughed out loud at this.

      • Maximus Decimus Meridius
        December 31, 2015, 2:09 pm

        I’ve got a funny feeling that Herr Greg, who thinks everyone in Iran with a beard is the same man, is going to be giving us all a lot of laughs on this forum!

      • Susan A
        January 5, 2016, 8:00 am

        Diasp0ra: Me too! Also what echinococcus said about the ‘ten-volume Russian novel’ above had the same effect. We have to laugh sometimes to enable us to keep going. And now I’ve seen MDM’s comment, that too!

    • GregMozart
      January 4, 2016, 6:47 pm

      I will in fact admit to not spelling Khamenei properly, with my only defense being that it’s a transliterated name and both actually are the same in Persian.

      And also I admit to not knowing the meaning of the word “Seyed”.
      Well, I guess we can discredit everything I’m saying now! Except maybe that I try to be fair and admit when I’ve made a mistake.

      BTW, I also kept saying Husseini when I should have spelled it “Husseyni”. I apologize for getting the name of this [..] Jew hating leader wrong.

      PS: I do not follow official transliterations when I type comments, I of course know that Khamenei is not the same as the Ayatollah Khomeini who is a national hero of the Iranian revolution. In other news, Bashar al-Assad is not the middle name of Hafez al-Assad.

      • Susan A
        January 5, 2016, 8:13 am

        Oh dear Greg, the mask slipped there: you couldn’t help but bring in the ‘Jew hating…’ comment. I once read a comment somewhere by a Canadian lady, who said she had been, until a year earlier, a neutral bystander; but having looked into the situation, blah blah blah…the haters…blah blah blah…I pointed out to her that I was surprised that she had come to her conclusion after only having looked at the issue for a year because I would have thought that one would need at least five years, at minimum, to become fully apprised of the situation. At that point I added that her use of the term ‘the haters’ had revealed who she really was. Way to go Greg.

      • eljay
        January 5, 2016, 8:24 am

        || Susan A: Oh dear Greg, the mask slipped there … ||

        Greg joined MW on Dec. 27 as a “concerned human being” and only two days and a handful of posts later he had already stopped pretending he was anything other than a Zio-supremacist.

  20. GregMozart
    January 1, 2016, 11:45 pm

    This perspective is meant to wake you up from the Matrix. The Poroshenko government in Kiev and the Rada are openly called “faschists” and a “junta” by the Russians, making references to things like Bandera, a Nazi collaborator in World War 2, etc. But the reality is, this is just more propaganda (which may have some truth element) designed to give legitimacy to their actions in backing rebels in Eastern Ukraine as unilaterally taking Crimea from Ukraine. Why do I bring it up? Because it’s a familiar pattern when a smaller country with two or more ethnic populations is ravaged by foreign intervention, and the big losers are usually the population that isn’t ruling that country.

    Do Palestinians have legitimate grievances, as do Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, etc. ? Sure. But this whole “Anti-Zionism” ideology actually hurts them more. If you step back you’ll see it hasn’t worked to help Palestinians for decades, but like any ideology it’s always tried no matter how many times it fails, because it propagates itself as a meme. It is a leftover of a successful operation by the KGB. Ion Michai Pacepa, the highest ranking intelligence defector from the USSR, wrote tell all expose in 2003 which you can read here: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB106419296113226300 . The KGB trained leaders to put pressure on a government and to topple it — in this case the PLO was funded to topple the government of Israel, after it became clear Israel would not be Stalin’s darling socialist country in the Middle East, as it entered the USA’s sphere of influence instead. Palestine Liberation Organization is also very similar to the Liberation Theology efforts that KGB was pushing in South America. In fact, Arafat and the rest of the PLO made no secret that this was, indeed, their goal. It is only a question of how sincere his change was when they recognized Israel’s right to exist, and met with Clinton.

    Nicolae Ceausescu, the head of state of Romania (Communist at the time, part of the Warsaw Pact) met with Carter and vouched for Arafat as someone who would make peace with Israelis, despite his rhetoric at the time. Which would mean that America’s blocking of democracy among the Palestinians, all the way to Clinton’s efforts at Camp David, were futile attempts to establish a two state solution with a terrorist who would never accept a Jewish Israel side by side with his state.

    Now, when I say terrorist, I say so advisedly. It is not simply that Arafat adopted the KGB’s ideas about hijacking planes, or invented the suicide bomber, though these are indeed widely acknowledged acts of “terrorism” for political gain. It’s that this pattern is part of a larger narrative which repeats itself around the world: USSR or USA or Saudi Arabia or Iran sponsor and “fund rebels” on the one hand, and “prop up leaders” on the other. The big losers are always the local population. Vietnam, Afghanistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone), Iraq, Egypt, and going on today: Ukraine, and Syria, which are done funded by a triangle of Russia, USA and Saudis. The pattern is: a country trains and funds their favored leaders among rebel groups in a country that has left their sphere of influence, in order to involve the other country / ideology in a proxy war, and hopefully replace the rulers with a regime friendly to them. Meanwhile, the opposing countries prop up a regime and funnel weapons to them, making the whole region more violent. The terror group is passed off as a “government in exile” of the oppressed people, who wind up being the biggest victims of the conflict, as Ukrainian army batters Donetsk, Assad’s forces shell Darmouk, or Israeli forces attack Gaza. I should mention, though, that Hamas was funded primarily by Gulf states and Iran, not by USA or Russia (if we ignore stealing international aid from the people they claim to represent http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/16/gaza-hamas-funding-oped-cx_re_0116ehrenfeld.html ). The lack of democratic elections in the PLO and the amassing of wealth by Arafat, Mashal, Yanukovich, and others, fits a familiar pattern too.

    Do you see what I am talking about, regarding this pattern? Do you agree that this is a major element in the Israel-Palestinian conflict? I think meddling by foreign powers became *the* dominant factor, filling the power void after the end of the British colonial influence.

    You should look up this term on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot . I do not mean it to insult you, since we are all guilty of it in one form or another. But realize just how much foreign meddling caused the local people involved to suffer, and how “X are Nazis” might be a symptom of that. Step back and re-read what I wrote, and find whether great and lofty concepts like “Justice” and “Liberty” have in fact been hijacked by rich countries, centers of ideology, to motivate people like us into fighting. Maybe we can wake up and actually start to honestly point out the role of foreign meddling on *both sides* of the conflict.

    • Mooser
      January 2, 2016, 1:25 pm

      Okay, Greg, whatever.

      Oh, Greg, there is one thing, dude, you can type!
      Wait a minute, this must be the part where I say “Gee, Mr. Mozart, such a lot of words!” and you reply; “Not a single one more than is necessary!”

      “Step back and re-read what I wrote”

      Oh, you bet, over and over.

      • Susan A
        January 5, 2016, 8:23 am

        Mooser: Again I laugh!

    • diasp0ra
      January 2, 2016, 2:17 pm

      @Greg

      You constantly bring up symptoms when you should be discussing root causes. What brought Arafat around? What even MADE Arafat? How did Arafat even become popular? Were these things just inherent?

      How can you take this out of the context of the refugee camp that only turned to violence after decades of the world promising to do something and then ignoring them?

      Greg, answer me this: What is your problem with Anti-Zionism? Do you believe in Zionism as an ideology? Do you believe that Zionists have more right to a country than Palestinians? I have chosen my words carefully, do not conflate Zionism with Judaism as you did in your last response, as there were always Jews living in Palestine. Also do not bring up events from a thousand years ago, we’re in an age where there is international law and human rights that should be respected.

      Zionism, a product of its time, is a racist colonial ideology that is based upon principles of supremacy of one people over the other. In its writings you will find that the need to “whisk” away the “penniless” natives is stressed, and often. Can you deny this?

      How can we begin to discuss anything without acknowledging the beginning? Everything that happened after is a direct result of that.

      You write novels about what the Palestinians did wrong, but you never go back to the start. What started it all? Why did the friction suddenly happen in the late 1800s?

      Not to say that the Palestinians haven’t made blunders and mistakes, but to frame them as you do without context is dishonest at best. Why do you refuse to address the original point of Zionism in Palestine? It was a self proclaimed colonial movement, supported by the Jewish Colonial Fund. Only when colonialism went out of style did it rebrand. Why won’t you acknowledge this?

      Your comment about Anti-Zionism could easily be applied to the anti-Apartheid movement before Apartheid fell. They also struggled for decades with people arguing that the Africans were harming themselves, and nothing has come of it.

      We know how that ended.

      • GregMozart
        January 2, 2016, 6:58 pm

        I am very glad to respond to you diasp0ra, because you focus on the substance and are careful to word things in a productive way instead of attacking the other perrson, and we can have a productive conversation, where I (or maybe both of us) can learn something new. My views come down to this: ideological violence leads only to worse things, foreign meddling exacerbates both the ideology and the violence, and prevents people on the ground from compromising. There’s not a lot of space here in these comments, so as for what I think of the whole issue, I’m going to write a blog post and link to it. So now I’ll just try to answer your questions thoughtfully.

        > What brought Arafat around? What even MADE Arafat? How did Arafat even become popular?

        Well, for Arafat in particular, I think it was similar to Che Guevara. It is a mix of revolutionary socialist liberation ideas, backing by the USSR who grew disenchanted with Israel, as well as of course the actual sentiments among Arabs, both Palestinian and not, regarding Arab unity in general and the Nakba in particular.

        > Were these things just inherent?

        No, they were based in legitimate grievances arising from catastrophes which were result of foreign meddling. Starting with British colonialism and huge errors, probably the worst being manuevering al Husseini to the position of Grand Mufti, over the more moderate and popular Nashashibi clan leaders, and then President of the Muslim Supreme Council and ultimately resulted in him leading the Arab Higher Committee in Palestine. Had it not been for British meddling, it’s likely Jews and Arabs would have built a state together, but al Husseini, collaborating with other revolutionaries like Izz ad Din al Qassam, made sure it would not happen. These leaders always made thing go from peaceful coexistence to demonization of “European” Jews instead (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre). This in turn caused empowered radical Jewish groups like the Irgun (IZL) and with their Revisionist Zionist ideology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revisionist_Zionism) so the fuse was lit and the one state couldn’t be built together.

        So then separation was recommended (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission) and various revolutionary groups fought the British, both Jews and Arabs carried out terror attacks, etc. But as the British left, there was a vacuum, which was soon filled by the USSR, and surrounding Arab states. Once again, if the surrounding Arab states had not intervened, it’s likely that two states would be built, with the local population. The archives that Benny Morris and other New Historians have analyzed show that the general Arab population, as well as Labor Zionists, did not really want to fight. But invading foreign armies, plus Stalin’s weapons transfer through Czechoslovakia on the other side, exacerbated the situation. This was back when the USSR backed Israel. Anyway, Israel beat the other armies, and resulted in lines different than the UN lines. Then, Israel entered USA’s sphere of influence and the USSR started spreading socialist “anti-Zionist” propaganda (e.g. this statue here says “Zionism is a weapon of imperialism” http://41.media.tumblr.com/8688426a0b55fc85e50eeef4a6e66495/tumblr_nlz3c9X8xp1tbwwzbo3_1280.jpg ). Now the political vacuum left by the British was filled by the cold war between the USA and USSR, and of course various Arab states (Jordan, Syria, etc.) vying to retake Palestine and annex it. And of course there were Islamic ideas in addition to the various Pan-Arab unity ideas. But all of this, once again, is putting pressure on the region where in my opinion Jews and Arabs would have sorted things out if not for this constant exacerbation.

        So yeah, in this climate I think the PLO was cynically funded and supported by the USSR and also of course found well-meaning support from several Arab states as well, who wanted to see the Palestinian Arabs to have a home. There’s a lot of different viewpoints and factions within the PLO, PFLP, etc. and they all had different ideas. For example, the Syrian faction of the PLO was saying stuff like this: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

        Do I think that a revolutionary organization organized to eliminate Israel can one day become a peace partner and build a state next to it? Maybe. I don’t think it is the best candidate, and I think it was a mistake for Carter and others to support Arafat. The 1988 acceptance of Israel is partly a result of preconditions set by the USA and Arafat’s desire to continue to be relevant. Since 1974 he started backtracking, made the 10 point plan and as a result he lost a lot of other revolutionaries to the FPLP. But all this revolutionary stuff, in my opinion, is a result of foreign meddling. It doesn’t lead to good political outcomes, and ironically Palestinians are the big losers from this meddling. Obviously I only had space to mention a couple illustrations of the foreign meddling here, but yeah that’s what I think the background is for all this.

        “Greg, answer me this: What is your problem with Anti-Zionism? Do you believe in Zionism as an ideology?”

        Everything is an ideology, the question is how intolerant it is. I think Revisionist Zionism is an intolerant ideology. If Zionism means Jewish people should have a home (Ben Gurion’s view) then I support that. I think Jewish people are like Russian people or Arab people. It’s a nationality. Palestinian Arabs definitely have a distinct culture, but they are part of a larger Arab nation, which has many states. If they get their own state, I am happy to see it, as long as that state allows Jews, atheists, etc. already there to live in it just like Israel allows others to live in it and extends civil rights. But that’s not what’s being discussed. Among Palestinians, there is Islamicization over Christians, but when it comes to Jews it’s a total zero (Even the secular Fatah has to say that http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Abbas-wants-not-a-single-Israeli-in-future-Palestinian-state-321470). If a new Palestinian State could take the 500,000 Jews currently living in the West Bank, and give them the same rights as the Arabs, we could have two states side by side, and *the actual people* regardless of religion could stay where they are and feel safe. As it is, we are talking about mass deportations of 500,000 Jews from the West Bank, and an ethnically cleansed (of Jews) state called Palestine, next to a state (Israel within 1967 borders) which has 1.6 million Arabs + right of returns of everyone to Haifa, etc. Let’s not kid ourselves, if Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan etc. do not offer citizenship and Israel offers a right of return and equal rights, all the refugees will be almost *forced* to go there, which is more artificial force. So Israel will be home to millions of Arabs, while also deporting all Jews from “State of Palestine”, which would likely be an American-backed police state with the PA running the place and fatcat government. That’s not something I as a liberal or as a Jew want to see or support. But that’s the current upshot of the international solution.

        “Do you believe that Zionists have more right to a country than Palestinians?”

        I think various forms of Zionism are ideologies, Judaism is a religion, Jews are a people/nationality (like Russians or Arabs or Chinese). Each nationality should have at least one state of their own, that can protect them. “Zionists” of all kinds don’t have a right to a state any more than “Communists”. States, in my view, are sovereign political entities whose responsibility it is to take care of people living in their jurisdiction, NOW, not 80 years ago, or 500 years ago. So I’d rather use existing states, but if a new state is formed today in area X, I want to know that the people living in area X don’t have to face mass deportations, loss of freedom (religious, speech, sexual, etc.), or worse: mass rapes, killings, etc.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 2, 2016, 7:33 pm

        when it comes to Jews it’s a total zero

        not even your link supports this greg. and it’s certainly not a new claim read this: http://mondoweiss.net/2013/03/khalidi-blumenthal-delusion#comment-547594

        there are so many inaccuracies in your revisionist history i wouldn’t no where to begin, so i won’t. diasp0ra is so much better at this than me. but the attempts to whitewash zionist culpability from almost every aspect of your comment is glaring in it’s denial. i don’t see how “a productive conversation” with you can ensue given these conditions but i’m looking forward to diasp0ra’s response.

      • Mooser
        January 2, 2016, 7:20 pm

        “Jews are a people/nationality (like Russians or Arabs or Chinese). Each nationality should have at least one state of their own, that can protect them”

        No, you are saying this completely made-up nationality called “Jews” (which you can’t even define, as a nationality) has the right to come and take it from somebody else.

        What a great “nationality” it is too! All the privileges of a nationality, and all the protection of a religion! You can’t lose!

        So, “Greggy” let’s hear a divertimento ridiculouso on Jewish nationality.

        Oh wait, a “state that protects them”? Now, that’s a laugh. How does Israel protect Jews? You know, that “nationality”.

      • Mooser
        January 2, 2016, 7:25 pm

        ” ideological violence leads only to worse things, foreign meddling exacerbates both the ideology and the violence, and prevents people on the ground from compromising.”

        Ah, he must be talking about the Zionists/Israel. That’s their MO.

      • diasp0ra
        January 2, 2016, 7:45 pm

        @Greg

        Greg, you’re still not addressing the core issue here.

        When I asked about Arafat I didn’t mean literally Arafat. I meant the whole Palestinian revolutionary movement, which sprung out of the refugee camps. Refugee camps which were created by Israeli ethnic cleansing. We can’t talk about Arafat without acknowledging this fact.

        You continue to strip context of what we’re discussing. I don’t care if the Jewish people have one state or fifty. What I care about is that they built their state at my expense and ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands to achieve it.

        Why should we partition our land? For the sake of refugees who had not lived there more than a few decades? We’re supposed to give up the majority of this territory to lessen Europe’s guilt? The fact that this is represented as irrational truly boggles my mind.

        Ben Gurion’s Zionism is the Zionism that thinks Jewish people should have a state where a people already live. You left that part out. This is the Zionism that committed ethnic cleansing, the Zionism that calls for Jewish majority so that Jews have a dominant position in society. This contradicts any forms of humanitarian considerations or general human equality and decency.

        The Arab states are not responsible to clean up after Israel’s mess.

        Why do you not address Zionism’s colonial history? That it openly called for “transfer” of native Palestinians? Which it did. Your solutions always put the burden on the Palestinians. Why should we give 500,000 settlers Palestinian citizenship when they are there illegally? What is with the appeasement? Again, don’t conflate Jews with Israelis. You make this seem so irrational.

        You are telling people to facilitate the crimes rather than tell the criminal to stop committing them, can’t you see?

        All we’re asking is for Israel to follow international law, I don’t understand what is unreasonable about this.

      • RoHa
        January 2, 2016, 8:28 pm

        “and resulted in lines different than the UN lines.”

        Different from the UN lines.

      • RoHa
        January 2, 2016, 8:53 pm

        “So Israel will be home to millions of Arabs,”

        And why not?

        “Jews are a people/nationality (like Russians or Arabs or Chinese). ”

        On your vague description of “people”, the Chinese are not a “people”. Cantonese are a different “people” from the Szechuanese and Pekingese. (People, not the annoying little dogs.) They look different, they live in a different area, speak a different language, and have a different culture.

        “Each nationality should have at least one state of their own, that can protect them.”

        Which nationalities are there? Do you have a list?

        Does the list include “Australian”, “Aryan”, “Savoyard*”, “Gypsy”, “Parsee” , “Esperantist”, or “Stamp Collector”?

        If so, why so for each case? If not,why not for each case?

        And does this give each “nationality” the right to take over a chunk of territory and establish state there at the expense of the native inhabitants?

        (*Interpreted either as “native of Savoy” or “a person keenly interested in the operettas of Gilbert and Sullivan”.)

      • eljay
        January 2, 2016, 9:00 pm

        || GregMozart: … I think Jewish people are like Russian people or Arab people. It’s a nationality. … Judaism is a religion, Jews are a people/nationality (like Russians or Arabs or Chinese). Each nationality should have at least one state of their own … ||

        Jewish is a religion-based identity. A person is Jewish if he/she:
        – undergoes a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – is descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        And that’s it.

        Unlike American, French, Canadian, German, Italian, etc., there does not exist a bureaucratic nationality of “Jewish” that belongs to any of “Jewish State’s” citizens , immigrants, expats or refugees, regardless of their race, colour, culture or religion.

        Israel can be a state like America, France, Canada, German, Italy, etc.

        It’s possible, I guess, that “Jewish State” could also be a state like America, France, Canada, German, Italy, etc. However, it currently exists only as a religion-supremacist construct and there isn’t a single Zio-supremacist who would have it any other way.

      • GregMozart
        January 3, 2016, 3:33 am

        btw eljay do you consider Saudi Arabia to be a religion-supremacist state, by your definition? I am just curious. Why or why not? Should it be dismantled?

        Honestly, though Israel scores very high liberal values including freedom of religion. Especially considering that it’s a democracy under attack by groups that openly advocate for the toppling of its society. Other democracies have fared worse in this situation. It’s not like Israel is the only country in the world that faces these issues … you have to compare it to other countries that face similar circumstances, to judge it. This video is obviously pro Israel, but it’s factually correct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuaxhMgoRcc … and frankly I am very happy to investigate biased sources as I said, both pro Israel and pro Palestinian, to inform myself of the facts.

      • eljay
        January 3, 2016, 9:20 am

        || GregMozart: btw eljay do you consider Saudi Arabia to be a religion-supremacist state, by your definition? I am just curious. Why or why not? … ||

        I consider Saudi to be an oppressive and repressive monarchy. But I don’t know whether Saudi Arabia officially defines itself and operates as a “Muslim state” primarily of and for Muslim Saudis and non-Saudi Muslims. If it does, then I would consider it – like Israel – to be a religion-supremacist state.

        || … Should it be dismantled? … ||

        Saudi Arabia – like Israel – should not be dismantled. But Saudi Arabia – like Israel – should be reformed into a secular and democratic state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        || … Honestly, though Israel scores very high liberal values including freedom of religion. … ||

        The rapist is a well-respected hockey coach and local fundraiser. That still doesn’t make him a law-abiding citizen.

        || … Especially considering that it’s a democracy under attack by groups that openly advocate for the toppling of its society. … ||

        If the “society” they are openly advocating topping is the religion-supremacist nature of Israel, they are right to do so.

        || … Other democracies have fared worse in this situation. It’s not like Israel is the only country in the world that faces these issues … you have to compare it to other countries that face similar circumstances, to judge it. … ||

        Israel proclaims itself a “moral beacon”, a “light unto the nations” and a “Western-style democracy”. Those are the standards to which it must be held.

        How many other “moral beacons”, “lights unto the nations” and “Western-style democracies”:
        – are religion-supremacist states;
        – continue to occupy and colonize land outside of their borders;
        – refuse to allow their refugees to return home?

      • diasp0ra
        January 3, 2016, 10:21 am

        @Greg

        The Palestinian revolutionary movement sprung from refugee camps. There is a reason why they are fighting, and that is because they are in refugee camps. They were not created by Egypt and Jordan and whatever, in fact Jordan was very wary of the PLO as it wanted control of the West Bank to expand its kingdom.

        Your contention that the Palestinians are revolting simply because they are funded/sponsored by others whitewashes Israel’s role in creating the refugee problem. It makes Palestinians appear to not have a valid reason for fighting. It is an ahistorical narrative that you are spreading and it de facto legitimizes Israeli policy.

        How is that a biased narrative? Who created the refugee camps? Was that not a result of Israeli action during and after the war?

        Greg, you are seriously misguided if you think that the Zionists wanted a state with the Palestinians. Your version of history cleans Israel more than Israeli historians. Have you read Benny Morris? Illan Pappe? Read how ethnic cleansing was planned even as the parties were discussing political solutions. Simha Flapan has a really good book busting the myths of Israeli creation, one of which is that Zionists would have lived in a state alongside the Palestinians had there not been war.

        You dance around the original point again. Hussayni is not the main reason there is no peace, a foreign people coming to a land with intention to build a state there regardless of what the natives think is the main reason. You take this for granted as if there is nothing wrong with it. Hussayni is a response to this, not the root cause. Which is settler colonialism.

        Greg, are you aware that by the time the Arab armies even entered the fray around 300,000 Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed? Do you know that THAT is what forced them in? Do you know that the Arab armies DID NOT invade Israel, but the areas allotted for the Arab state according to the partition plan? That is why there are no UN resolutions calling for the Arabs to withdraw, because they were not invading they were in the areas for the Arab state. The fact that there was fighting shows that Israel was being expansionist and wanting to take over other territories.

        On the Nakba: Jewish Virtual Library? Really? One of the most biased twisting websites out there?

        There is simply NO truth behind the fact that only 10 percent of Palestinians were forcefully ethnically cleansed. This is such a twisting and whitewashing of history it seriously boggles my mind. I see you have some myths in your reasoning, that have been debunked. Like the Arabs called the Palestinians to leave, which there is 0 proof of. In fact, the opposite is true:

        “The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put.” Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

        “Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was ‘self-inspired’. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action — whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it — or its predecessors — actively created.” Peretz Kidron, quoted in “Blaming the Victims,” ed. Said and Hitchens.

        Do you know that the ethnic cleansing was not a result of war, but that it continued for years after the war? Up until the 1950s, more and more villages were wiped out and its people kicked out. What is the excuse then?

        If the villagers were kicked out due to war, why were they not allowed to return as per humanitarian international law when it was over?

        “During May [1948] ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim…[Even earlier,] On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha… The village was destroyed that night… Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April… Abu Zureiq was completely demolished… Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled. . .By mid-1949, the majority of [the 350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.

        It had nothing to do with war, and everything to do with ideology, that you criticize for everyone but hardly mentioned for Zionism.

        As for your playground example, what a false equivalence and terrible example, Greg. We’re not talking about playgrounds. Stop dancing around the issue. People came from abroad with the intention to build a state despite what the natives wanted. Period. That’s where it begins. You repeat another Myth that most of the land was not developed in order to justify colonialism:

        “Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine, John Chancellor, recommended total suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture. He said ‘all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators’…The Colonial Office rejected the recommendation.” John Quigley, “Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice.”

        There is another quote by an early Zionist who said that when he came to Palestine he expected an abandoned desert but was shocked to see how lively and inhabited it was. He also said that it was very difficult to buy any land since it was all taken. I can’t remember the name, but I’ll try and find it later.

        Greg, what attempts to wipe out Israel? Every major war including Israel has been initiated by Israel, excluding the 1973 war. Does that seem like a nation facing extinction to you? Israel has always been militarily superior, all talks about wiping it out is rhetorical without any basis in reality.

        I don’t think you love justice. It’s clear to me from your posts that you have swallowed whole the Israeli narrative, you even refer to many myths that do not live up to any scrutiny.

        Time and time again you criticize violent ideologies but never touch Zionism, which is the crux of the whole issue. You have not criticized any extreme Israeli ideology. You whitewash history for Israelis and put all blame on the Palestinians. You are the embodiment of a PEP in the flesh.

        I have never in history read anywhere that an occupied population needs to provide security for their occupier. Except for Palestinians. Greg, your points are all apologism. Even though you want to give off this image of “dialogue” (the issue isn’t of dialogue and communication, it’s modern day colonialism) but your refusal to denounce anything Israeli, whitewash history with debunked myths and put all the blame on Palestinian movements created as a RESPONSE to ethnic cleansing tells me everything.

        No matter how much we run around in circles: A foreign people came to a land and wanted to establish an exclusive state despite the natives. Resistance to that is legitimate and rational.

        Israel today is an occupier. Resistance to that is legitimate and rational. The occupier’s security must not be catered to by the occupied population. The occupied population has a right to liberty. No matter how traumatic the past of the occupier, they are now the ones with the guns making life hell for millions for ideological reasons.

      • Kris
        January 3, 2016, 11:53 am

        @GregMozart: “It’s not like Israel is the only country in the world that faces these issues … you have to compare it to other countries that face similar circumstances, to judge it.”

        The countries that Israel most resembles are Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany, though in many ways it is also like the Jim Crow South pre-Civil Rights Act. All of these were democracies in the same way that Israel is, which is to say that they held elections, but the people ruled by the elected government did not have equal rights.

        Israel’s national character is most like that of Nazi Germany, where the oppressors also refined casual, pointless cruelty into almost an art form.

        btw: a playground is a stupid example. If you are in your house on your land, even if there is only one of you, you actually do not have to give it up to, or even share it with, a mob of home invaders.

        There are even commandments about coveting and stealing; if you are “religious,” you may have heard of them. There may be an important reason why they are “The Ten Commandments,” not the “Ten Options.”

      • Mooser
        January 3, 2016, 12:32 pm

        @”Greg Mozart”:

        “Greg”, are you aware that all of your posts are being saved (for the near perpetuity) in an “archive”? You can access your “archive” by clicking the name above your post.
        Take a look at it. I dare you.

      • GregMozart
        January 3, 2016, 2:18 pm

        @diasp0ra

        First of all I am not trying to downplay human rights violations by any country.[…] My point is, that narrative being around today hurts Palestinians, and is the result of Egypt+USSR sponsoring it. If you want to continue it, I’m sad. It will only hurt Palestinians more. But hey, who am I to tell you what to do. My suggestion is to accept that moderate leaders would have the power to make life better for your people. Arabs accomplished so much in science, culture, etc. and Islam conquered so many countries, and now you prefer your people to be a subgroup of Arabs who wastes most of their collective energy to “the struggle” and hurts others who are trying to do better things in life? In my opinion, you are being used by unquestioningly supporting an agenda financed and established by Egypt, Arab League and USSR, many years ago.

        I am not denying that the Palestinian revolutionary movement had earlier roots. In fact, the fervor predates the refugee camps, as you have yourself admitted in the previous comment. It is a reaction to the unwelcome Jewish immigration into Palestine. After the Ottoman empire fell, some Arabs of Palestine simply refused to accept the authority of whoever was ruling them. The mandate, given to Britain by the League of Nations, called for the establishing of a Jewish home in Palestine, where the Ottoman Empire had previously had sovereign rule. There were groups that accepted British rule, and there were various Palestinian nationalists and Pan Arabists who wanted to unite with e.g. King Faisal of Syria. These did not like the British. Even earlier than that, I am sure that many Arab supremacists were asking the Ottoman authorities to restrict Jewish immigration to Palestine, who were clearly coming by permission of the ruling power *and* purchasing land legally. That itself is a racial-supremacist position.

        But not every Arab felt this way. I am talking about certain mindsets and attitudes in the population. If you read the history of Ukraine, you’ll find similar things. If you read Kurdish history, you’ll find similar things. Some people want independence. Others want unification. There can be strong sentiments against immigrants.

        It’s simply clear that the Arab League refused to respect the UN vote of 72% in favor of partition. They also refused to respect Jordan’s sovereignty over its own citizens who agreed to it in the Jeicho Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_Conference), and propped up the fake and broke “All Palestine government” in Gaza with the Jew-hating Al Husseini. Because it was a game of Egypt vs Amman. The PLO is a creation of Nasser, the same guy who together with Nikita Khruschev almost got the world into a nuclear war because of the suez.

        From what you wrote, I totally agree with you about this: “Jordan was very wary of the PLO as it wanted control of the West Bank to expand its kingdom.” Exactly! The two states that *actually* took in large Palestinian populations, i.e. had to actually GOVERN Palestinians, have tried to create stability. And in 1941, the USA recognized Israel and Jordan on the same day, and there could have been peace. […] Arafat wasn’t even the worst insurgent … during Black September civil war, all King Hussein asked is to accept his sovereignty and follow Jordanian law. Arafat was going to do that but PLFP and other factions couldn’t give a crap about the Jordanian government either. They didn’t want Jordan to make peace with Israel. This obsession caused the PLO to get kicked out of Jordan, then they tangled with people of Lebanon. Do you not see how if not for the Egyptian backing, Jordan would have long been the home of Palestinian people? But Nasser and Egypt tangled with Amman for supremacy, and this was one of the issues. It’s like USA sponsoring “rebels in Syria against Assad” and then the conflict never ends. Sure, rebels always existed in Syria, but they were EMPOWERED by USA and Qatar and Saudis. Same here, USSR and Egypt empowered your rebels, and another 40-50 years of misery for the rest of the Palestinians. And you still support it! Do you have a time limit and some theshold of evidence before you accept it failed?

      • Annie Robbins
        January 3, 2016, 3:41 pm

        greg, i would strongly urge you to make your comments shorter and review the comment policy. a couple of your comments have been deleted for nakba denial. this is something we do not debate here, nor do we debate whether jews were responsible for the holocaust. i am aware there are ‘other sides’ to both of these historical events, but it’s not something we debate here. any comment containing nakba denial or the defense of it will be deleted in full. therefore, i would urge you to break up your long comments, otherwise all your extraneous concerned trolling about how sad it makes you etc etc will go down the tubes with your revisionist history.

        I am sure that many Arab supremacists were asking the Ottoman authorities to restrict Jewish immigration to Palestine, who were clearly coming by permission of the ruling power *and* purchasing land legally. That itself is a racial-supremacist position.

        it is not “racial-supremacist” to reject ones on country’s colonization.

      • GregMozart
        January 3, 2016, 4:37 pm

        Annie Robbins: [..] I hope you allow this comment, so at least diasp0ra knows I have indeed responded to him. And diasp0ra you can contact me at gregory …at… gregory.net if you want to have an extended conversation. I am interested to know your sources for e.g. Arab armies not planning to invade the Jewish half of the partition. I feel it could be true, but it also contradicts a lot of what I read.

      • diasp0ra
        January 3, 2016, 4:54 pm

        @Greg

        “this guy was against JEWS, and was responsible for killing 400,000 alone in Hungary, Poland etc.”

        Are you kidding me? Are you seriously saying that Al-Husseini was responsible for 400,000 Jewish deaths in WW2??? Are you repeating Netanyahu’s line? There is ZERO evidence of that, did you not see how Israeli historians took Netanyahu down when he spouted such nonsense? Where are you even getting your information from?

        You keep representing Israel as if it was a state that needed to defend itself when it EXPELLED people to even be a state. You don’t start the story after 1948. You start how 1948 was possible in the first place.

        How is this not penetrating your mind? How is it that you can’t understand that people who are kicked from their homes want to fight back? How is it that you believe that the PLO was “sponsored” by some Arab countries is the only reason it exists? You remind me of people that say that the PA incites against Israel and that’s the only reason why Palestinians throw stones, as if occupation isn’t a thing.

        You keep saying that the Palestinians should have agreed to a state in the West Bank, WHY? Why should we have? It makes no sense to agree to split your land with people who have only lived there for a few decades. It goes against all reason.

        You keep making assumptions about my ideology when I have spoken nothing of it. You don’t know what I support.

        As for your Benny Morris quote..he was talking about only a FEW villages. Where did you come out with the 10% number of all Palestinians? And if you consider Benny Morris a non Zionist..then I don’t know what to say to you.

        It truly startles me how you take the position that Palestinians should agree to less than half of their country for granted. As if opposing this is irrational and unreasonable.

        Greg, you have been quoting many debunked myths in your arguments. Similar to the one about the Arab armies telling people to leave. You also keep repeating 1941 as the date that the US recognized Israel and Jordan, which is untrue.

        Why do you take it for granted that Palestinians should have just gotten over it and abandoned their native home to live in Jordan or as Jordanians? How is this reasonable on your part?

        I am tiring of this “dialogue”, Greg. The issue was never a problem of communication, it is your refusal to admit that Israel’s origins are mired in ethnic cleansing and colonialism. If you can’t acknowledge the sins of the past, how on earth are we going to move forward in this discussion?

        I truly have no will to continue this. Running around in circles is exhausting. I truly have no idea how someone who calls himself a “liberal” can justify ethnic cleansing and the destruction of villages to prevent people from coming home. Do you really believe that the hundreds of thousands of people that were expelled all took part in the fighting? Damn, why did we need the Arab armies then.

        Even villages that had peaceful relationships and agreements with the Zionists were ethnically cleansed. It had nothing to do with war. But maybe that helps you sleep better at night to think that the Zionists were forced to do so.

        I do not wish to continue in this. I’m done. There are only so many ways I can say the same thing and you to ignore it or even try and justify it.

      • Mooser
        January 3, 2016, 4:56 pm

        “And you still support it! Do you have a time limit and some theshold of evidence before you accept it failed?”

        Annie, thanks for the reminder to review the comment policy. I have no wish to test the Mods tolerance for profanity.

        And think of the most glorious part, “Greg”! We Jews can add “Destroyers of the Detested Palestinians” to our battle flags, and the world will honor this accomplishment, Jews, and Israel for eons to come. No doubt we will ad a second Hannukah or Purim to the roster.

      • talknic
        January 4, 2016, 12:13 am

        @ GregMozart ” Israel scores very high liberal values including freedom of religion”

        Source/statistics?

        “Especially considering that it’s a democracy..”

        Source? Meanwhile, there’s nothing about democracy here http://www.knesset.gov.il/docs/eng/megilat_eng.htm

        “It’s not like Israel is the only country in the world that faces these issues “

        Name another state that after having been given gratis its territories, went on to occupy other folks territories for 68 years

        “This video is obviously pro Israel, but it’s factually correct: link to youtube.com … and frankly I am very happy to investigate biased sources as I said, both pro Israel and pro Palestinian, to inform myself of the facts”

        Your precious video is completely irrelevant to the fact that A) Israel was proclaimed by the Zionist formed Provisional Israeli Government and was, B) subsequently Internationally recognized as ” as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, “ and has C) since been acting contrary to International Law and the UN Charter in non-Israeli territories

    • zaid
      January 3, 2016, 1:24 pm

      “That is simply a biased narrative that you’re perpetuating and it’s a two-pronged one: “

      Nakba denying will get you suspended from this website.

      Moderators please.

      ” Also, if the combined Arab armies never invaded, if Syria never funded the Arab Liberation Army (link to en.wikipedia.org) then the Nakba would have never happened.”

      Half of the Palestinins were already ethnically cleansed before the Arabs Invaded.

      The ethnic cleansing started 29 November 1947,
      The Arabs attacked 15 May 1948 to stop the cleansing.

      This alone will demolish the nonsense you spew here.

      “The civil war would have resolved itself and no one would have to leave the area.”

      See my response above

      “They left for a variety of reasons”

      Regardless of the reason why they left , they still have the right to return and Israel shouldnot have prevented them from that.

      There is no difference whether they left because the Arabs wanted them to go out of the way or because the Israelis expelled them or because they felt it will make them safe. either way they are refugees of war and Israel committed a crime by not allowing them to return.

      “which can be analyzed through books by Benny Morris (Pappe is too anti-Zionist, Karsh is too Zionist).

      Morris is too Zionist too.
      By the way Morris does not say that 10% only left by expulsion.

      He says that only 5% left by Arab armies orders .
      He says that only 6 villages out of 440 were evacuated by Arab orders.

      You never read morris. you are just an internet troll.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

      “A report from the military intelligence SHAI of the Haganah entitled “The emigration of Palestinian Arabs in the period 1/12/1947-1/6/1948,” dated 30 June 1948, affirms that:

      At least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our (Haganah/IDF) operations. To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which “directly (caused) some 15%… of the emigration.” A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to “fears” and “a crisis of confidence” affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

      “It’s true that about 10% of the Palestinians in the Nakba were definitely expelled by Jews during the war, for tactical reasons to win the war, (see link to en.wikipedia.org)”

      The link you provided doesnot support your claim. give evidence or spare us.

      According to Morris and others 95% were expelled or fled from the Israeli attacks.

      ” but for example Haifa was almost 90% evacuated before any Jewish military groups even arrived. (link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org) Other reasons for leaving included”

      Nonsense, see below:

      “According to Morris, “The Haganah mortar attacks of 21–22 April [on Haifa] were primarily designed to break Arab morale in order to bring about a swift collapse of resistance and speedy surrender. […] But clearly the offensive, and especially the mortaring, precipitated the exodus. The three-inch mortars “opened up on the market square [where there was] a great crowd […] a great panic took hold. The multitude burst into the port, pushed aside the policemen, charged the boats and began to flee the town”, as the official Haganah history later put it.”[6]:191, 200 According to Pappé,[13]:96 this mortar barrage was deliberately aimed at civilians to precipitate their flight from Haifa.

      The Haganah broadcast a warning to Arabs in Haifa on 21 April: “that unless they sent away ‘infiltrated dissidents’ they would be advised to evacuate all women and children, because they would be strongly attacked from now on.”

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

      “needing to get out of the way of the hostilities, the Arab armies also did not want civilians in the way”

      Does not change anything (even though it is a lie) Refugees still have the right to return.

      “There can be no exaggerating the importance of these early Arab-initiated evacuations in the demoralization, and eventual exodus, of the remaining rural and urban opulation ”

      He was talking about a certain phase.
      He was very clear that only 6 villages out of 440 were evacuated by Arab orders
      He was very clear that only 5 % left because of that .

      “Look up my facts. I just don’t have enough space to tell you everything but you can also do your own research.”

      I did , and i found that you were disingenuous.
      you opened wikipedia and picked the paragraphs that you liked and left the ones you disliked, hoping that no one will check what you post , and that is why you did not link to the source of your quotes which is this wikipedia page:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

      I know your type, and belive me people here are not your ordinary ignorant that you brainwash with your nonsense.we dont take anything any Zionist say without checking.

      From the Above link that you quoted from but refused to link, and from the very same guy that you claim to be honest (Morriss)

      There were 5 waves of refugees

      Wave No of Refugees Casue of depopulation
      First wave 100,000 sense of vulnerability, attacks and fear of impendingattack
      Second wave 250,000–300,00 attacks and fear of impending attack
      Third wave 100,000 refugee attacks and expulsions
      Fourth wave 200,000–230,000 attacks and expulsions
      Border clearings 30,000-40,000

      Total number of villages depopuated 440
      abandoned by Arab orders 6

      By the way i reject Morris because he is a self proclaimed Zionist
      and i also reject Wikipedia in controversial subjects
      but i used them to counter your argument because it is you r source

      Nakba denying will get you suspended from this website.
      http://mondoweiss.net/policy

      Moderators please.

      • MHughes976
        January 3, 2016, 2:52 pm

        I’ve often noted that Nakba justification, in all its horror (somewhat masked by complacency) often appears here and often wondered what the fate of a Holocaust justifier would be. Mind you, if we had no Nakba justifiers I suppise would have no Zionists.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 3, 2016, 3:21 pm

        thanks zaid, i agree . deleted.

      • tree
        January 3, 2016, 4:47 pm

        ” but for example Haifa was almost 90% evacuated before any Jewish military groups even arrived. (link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2015/12/israeli-ambassador-authoritarian#comment-818213

        Zaid did a good job of disproving Greg’s statements, but if I could I’d like to add a bit about this particular statement of Greg’s and how it shows his utter lack of knowledge of the subject. His link to the Jewish Virtual Library goes to an online version of Mitchell Bard’s “Myths and Facts” which is a dishonest propaganda piece.

        But even given that, Greg is too ignorant to understand what was said in that link and what it meant. ( Of course the other possibility is that he simply thought we were too ignorant to recognize a bald-faced lie, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.) His link claimed to quote a news article in the Economist from October 1948, which mentioned that there were only 5 to 6 thousand Palestinians left in Haifa at that time. Greg used that to claim that 90% of Haifa’s Palestinian population had “evacuated before any Jewish military groups arrived.”

        Jewish military forces were in Haifa from December of the year prior (1947) and were engaged in skirmishes and terrorist acts that led to the departure of 10 to 15 thousand of Haifa’s 70 thousand or so Palestinian residents. When the British pulled back and announced they would no long intervene to keep order on April 21st, 1948(they’d given the Haganah two days notice of their planned withdrawal), the Haganah attacked and took control of the city, causing most of Haifa’s Palestinian population to flee for their lives, and many others to leave within weeks because of the looting and destruction of their homes and livelihoods, as well as the forced evictions and their relocation into ghettos in Haifa. This is why there were only 5 to 6 thousand Palestinians left in Haifa In October 1948 ( that’s 6 months LATER, Greg), and its believed that the only reason that this small number were not likewise expelled was because they were needed to work in the Haifa Oil Refinery, which was then controlled by Israel.

        Greg, if you really think there were no Jewish troops deployed in Haifa before October 1948 then your ignorance is overwhelming. I suggest you stop reading Bard’s propaganda and actually read some scholarly books. And try questioning what you read, because you seem incapable of doing that. Most everything you have posted here since your very first comment has been incorrect.

      • RoHa
        January 3, 2016, 6:35 pm

        “By the way i reject Morris because he is a self proclaimed Zionist ”

        Being a Zionist doesn’t means he gets the facts wrong, though it is a good reason for checking.

      • GregMozart
        January 4, 2016, 12:53 am

        tree is right – I got the 90% in Haifa from researching online, and seeing the 5,000-6,000 figure. Also thans zaid for the figures, I want to research more. I am reading Morris now as I said and he was recommended by diasp0ra.

        In any case I will say one last time – the Israeli public won’t trust the Palestinian population after all the attacks. So if you know some other way, continuing to call for a one state solution won’t work easily. The two state solution and partition is the international solution, and it would have to be done by some diplomatic process. I am fine w either solution and I want to see Palestinians move on w their lives and have civil rights and citizenship as I do. I personally think if not for the Egypt’s sponsorship of PLO, they would have had the whole West Bank, Jordan and Jerusalem. I don’t know why that makes me equivalent to a Nazi when I just want people to live well. But ok, I know what you’re going to say. Unless Israel is dismantled and all the refugees return, you wont be satisfied. Well, I don’t know how you’e going to achieve that but… nothing more I will say here.

  21. Mooser
    January 2, 2016, 7:28 pm

    ” but if a new state is formed today in area X, I want to know that the people living in area X don’t have to face mass deportations, loss of freedom (religious, speech, sexual, etc.), or worse: mass rapes, killings, etc.”

    Gosh, if only you had been around to moderate Zionist actions during the Nakba. You would have made everything allright.

  22. Bornajoo
    January 3, 2016, 10:04 am

    @Greg

    You really think you sound like a reasonable person don’t you? You are just a slightly slicker version of a hasbara troll using the same old tactics dressed up in a more sophisticated camouflage. You sound like a couple of my Israeli cousins who actually think they’re really sincere and progressive but just have no idea how they really come across

    I will paraphrase what you sound like to me.

    “it’s not my fault. You need to break out of the matrix. Can’t you see that the person I’ve been raping in HER OWN basement in her own house is just another victim of those other genocidal leaders? I mean that’s why she is down there being brutally subjugated, violated, her dignity removed, with zero human rights or any hope whatsoever. And I really feel sorry for her (short pause to sob a few crocodile tears). Yes I really do. And I want to help her but I can only do that if her own family and community and all the other local neighbours take responsibility for the fact she’s down there in the first place. And you know what? If those other people do that then I’m even willing to help a bit too. Well that’s just the kind of guy I am. I’m here to be part of the solution! Look, once in a while I let her out on a long chain and I give her a bit of pocket money to help me clean the toilets and build my new rear extension. She should be grateful. But when she gets together with all the other rape victims, do you think they sit down and work out how to develop a proper society, using the pocket money we give them? After all there are some barren areas of scrubland we don’t really want and they can go and live there as a community as long as we maintain full military control over them and they only work for us on slave labour wages which they have to give straight back to us for their water, electricity and the vast majority of the goods they will need to survive. But hey, at least the air is still free! What more do they want?

    But no! Instead of doing that, they spend all their time and money pursuing this silly and purely fantastical notion about justice. They just hang on to this crazy idea that we are to blame for their problems but it’s really MOSTLY THEIR OWN FAULT (oh and those other genocidal leaders who caused this mess in the first place of course)

    Now I’ll be willing to let her out but she has to drop this crazy idea about justice, whatever that means. She must not think about justice, reparations, compensation and she needs to quietly go and live with one of the neighbours and sign an agreement that she will never pursue this silly idea about all the so called years of injustice she’s suffered. After all, as I already explained, she’s down there being brutally raped by me because of those other people. So she should just let it go and depart quietly to go live with a neighbour and leave me in peace so I can continue to live a privileged life in her house. After all, I’m just (sob, sob…) a poor victim too. “

    • Mooser
      January 3, 2016, 5:59 pm

      “Bornajoo” it gets better. At the top of “Greg Mozart”s comment archive, his profile:

      “Russian Jew who lives in USA thanks to asylum being granted to Russian Jews from USSR.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/gregmozart#sthash.1eLtEisd.dpuf

      • amigo
        January 3, 2016, 7:01 pm

        “Russian Jew who lives in USA thanks to asylum being granted to Russian Jews from USSR.” –”

        Seems as if the US immigration authorities may have screwed up on this one.

        Asylum,

        “1.
        the protection granted by a state to someone who has left their home country as a political refugee.

        2.

        an institution for the care of people who are not of sound mind.

    • GregMozart
      January 4, 2016, 4:35 pm

      Yeah, OK. I personally am responsible for the Nakba, having been born in 1983 and living in the USA because this country gives me civil rights and equality with other people? Yeah, if my trying to help every human being who was born and raised in a particular country to get the same rights in THAT country as everyone else, sounds to you like a rapist asking a neighborhood to go help his victim, then I think you’re the one who’s got a sick ideology. It causes you to attack someone who wants every permanent resident in the 21st century to get basic rights where they live, without needing to first to move to a future country to get rights.

      You know, the biggest waves of immigration of Jews into Palestine were from places where they were persecuted, not allowed to integrate into society, or outright killed for being Jewish. If they were given the same civil rights as other Russians instead of pogroms, maybe Palestine wouldn’t have had such a big immigration and none of this would have happened. And I agree, this caused huge demographic shift on the Palestine region, whose British rulers allowed this immigration. Even though many of the immigrants were scientists, engineers, businessmen etc. and even though the Jewish immigrants bought land legally and not just coexisted but really helped build up the region side by side with Arabs. But such xenophobia is great for supremacist leaders who whip the local population into a frenzy. OK there they were Islamist leaders, but similar rhetoric is happening in the USA today with Mexican immigrants and Syrian refugees, on a smaller scale. The Jewish organizations get their own supremacist groups Irgun and Lehi, with their Revisionist Zionism.

      Do I want a right of return for children of Palestinian refugees? Yes. But I also don’t want tons of people born in Lebanon to HAVE to move to Israel or Palestine in order to have the same basic civil rights that other Lebanese have. If nothing changes in Lebanon while Israel gives a right of return, then you’ll get the same situation all over again. If a non-sovereign group of people couldn’t abide such a demographic shock, you think such an influx of people (some of which are surely angry at Israelis) is the best thing? I am Pro Palestinian, and I am Pro Human that everyone should have rights *where they are* first, and these rights should not preclude them from obtaining a civil, orderly permission to move back or get compensation. The internationally recognized states which actually formed in the region, Jordan and Israel, COULD HAVE DONE IT, organized a return of refugees, and created peace, if not for Egypt and USSR funding the PLO to challenge their sovereignty and redraw the borders. Palestinians could have had 80% of the original mandate of Palestine, and Jews would have been left with 20%.

      All of this massive immigration have been avoided, and the refugee crisis can still be resolved, if countries were obligated to grant the same rights to every human being who grew up in that country and spent their whole life there. When this happens, a gradual right of return can be offered which does not immediately result in a huge land rush and demographic shift. Equality and civil rights must be granted to people where they live and have been living, without requiring them to pick up and move their whole life somewhere else. Once the pressure in the pot is lowered, then immigration and justice can be done.

      The United Nations should consider a Convention on the Rights of Permanent Residents, especially those who are native born. The Nakba is no excuse for any country to perpetuate statelessness and population crises can be solved more effectively when every individual human being can choose to remain where they live and still have rights.

      Bottom line: You are for what you call Justice. I am for Peace, Stability and Civil Rights first, then we can actually talk about Justice, reparations, whatever. Your way is a fantasy that continues to excuse countries besides Israel from any responsibility to anyone who was born there or lives there.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 4, 2016, 5:32 pm

        if not for Egypt and USSR funding the PLO to challenge their sovereignty and redraw the borders. Palestinians could have had 80% of the original mandate of Palestine, and Jews would have been left with 20%.

        what planet are you on?

        Equality and civil rights must be granted to people where they live and have been living, without requiring them to pick up and move their whole life somewhere else.

        that’s just so convenient now that the ethnic cleansing has already taken place in ’48, and illegal israeli settlers have grabbed the jordan valley and all the hilltops all over palestine. #FAIL.

        everyone should have rights *where they are* first,

        iow, you advocate palestinians in the west bank having exactly the same rights as it pertains to the government that rules over them (israel) as israeli jews. that’s very good to know. why aren’t you over at some pro zionist site advocating this. because if they ended the occupation right now it would sure make things simpler.

        oh i know why, because you were not saying that in the context of the occupation or one state, you were saying it as it pertains to lebanon and neighboring countries! exactly what all the pro israel hasbrats have been advocating for years and years, except they don’t apply it to themselves.

        Jewish immigrants bought land legally and not just coexisted but really helped build up the region side by side with Arabs. But such xenophobia is great for supremacist leaders who whip the local population into a frenzy. OK there they were Islamist leaders but similar rhetoric is happening in the USA today with Mexican immigrants and Syrian refugees

        so jewish immigrants were all side by side w/arabs til those nasty arab xenophobia ruined the party. and then at the end of your diatribe you add “The Jewish organizations get their own supremacist groups Irgun and Lehi, with their Revisionist Zionism.”

        i am sorry, but this just sounds like watered down nakba denial to me. a regular blame the victim thing. i am going to consult w/the other mods and see how this made it thru. you can’t keep pushing this historical revisionism over and over w/out calling attention to yourself.

      • GregMozart
        January 4, 2016, 8:12 pm

        “what planet are you on?”

        The same planet as the people who took part in producing these wikipedia articles:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho_Conference#Support
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Palestine_Government#Activities_of_the_All-Palestine_Government
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_views_on_the_peace_process#Yasser_Arafat_and_the_PLO
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Seven-point_agreement
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Aftermath_and_regional_consequences
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Hussein%27s_federation_plan

        Yes, since 1941, Jordan and Israel were both internationally recognized states, with actual laws, courts, armies, and whose leaders secretly desired peace with each other. This is well known fact. Jordan had absorbed tons of Palestinian refugees and gave them citizenship. Israel absorbed various Jewish refugees and gave them citizenship. Israel also gave citizenship to the Israeli Arabs, whose descendants now enjoy a much better life than even arabs in other states. Still, of course, Israel has a long way to go to combat racism and other discrimination, as does the USA and other countries.

        If Israel and Jordan were allowed to make peace with one another, these states would have worked together to provide a home for the Nakba refugees, and undo a lot of the ethnic cleansing (Israel’s expulsions which you surely know, Jordan expelling Jews in West Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_East_Jerusalem_under_Jordanian_occupation#Treatment_of_Jews_and_Jewish_holy_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Jerusalem_(1948)#/media/File:Looting_the_Jewish_Quarter.jpg http://static.europe-israel.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/11/jewish-refugees.jpg etc. ).

        The main thing that prevented a resolution by stable states Israel and Jordan was foreign state sponsored terrorist groups who, as I said, wanted to topple these American-backed regimes and redraw the borders. What I say is factually correct. I know you’re not sad about this missed chance, because of your ideology, but I am.

        It’s very telling that when I say a universal statement of human rights:

        “Equality and civil rights must be granted to people where they live and have been living, without requiring them to pick up and move their whole life somewhere else.”

        you respond:

        “that’s just so convenient now that the ethnic cleansing has already taken pace in ’48, and illegal israeli settlers have grabbed the jordan valley and all the hilltops all over palestine. #FAIL.”

        Only someone with your ideology would find it inconvenient that individuals of every nationality should be granted equal civil rights in the country they were born in and have lived in all their life. This should be obvious, if you are actual liberal. But your ideology isn’t Pro-Palestinian rights, it’s Anti-Zionism.

        To put it in perspective, imagine in the 19th century I said that Jews all around the world should be given the same civil rights as other residents of the countries they were born in and live in. That they shouldn’t live in ghettos, shouldn’t be barred from working certain jobs or purchasing property, and should be able to integrate into their respective societies. And you said

        “that’s just so convenient now that Jews have been expelled from Israel by the Romans 2000 years ago, and Arabs have moved in and built Al Aqsa and cities on top of where they used to be”

        So you support countries forcing Jews born there to live in ghettos their whole life and discriminating against them, because you want to keep their national unity so they can one day all go back to Israel? That, for most liberal minded people, would be obscene. But, how are you really different than the Zionists? At least the Zionists did not try to topple a sovereign country to achieve their dreamed return to their land of their ancestors, they merely took advantage of British colonialism which was normal at the time. And at least the Zionists didn’t try to keep Jews as second class citizens in every country to achieve their goals. You are. You aren’t even giving INDIVIDUAL PALESTINIANS a choice. And the Palestinians I know personally (who luckily were able to get that choice in the USA and Australia) agree with me on this, not you Annie.

        The past has lots of messy and terrible stuff, I know. You should look at Ukrainian nationalists like Bandera who also tried to take advantage of WW2 and fought alongside the Nazis, so they could also fulfill their national aspirations. This kind of stuff happens all the time. But why, today, can’t you just affirm the following statement:

        “Equality and civil rights must be granted to people where they live and have been living, without requiring them to pick up and move their whole life somewhere else.”

        Regardless of whether one day all Armenians return to Armenia or all Palestinians return to Palestine, or regardless of whether Jews would have ever returned to Palestine, everyone born and living in a country should have civil rights equal to everyone else in that country, free from oppression discrimination etc. without having to move somewhere else. And Israel is just as responsible for ensuring that as everyone else. If the international community including Palestinians let Israel, or any other state, rule the West Bank, I expect the same. No mass deportations. No mass migrations just so you can get rights. If you want to move – great, but it shouldn’t be just so you can finally have the right to buy a plot of land or work in a profession.

      • talknic
        January 4, 2016, 10:09 pm

        @ GregMozart January 4, 2016, 4:35 pm

        “Yeah, OK. I personally am responsible for the Nakba, having been born in 1983”

        The Nakba hasn’t ended. If you support the ongoing Zionist colonization of Palestine or make excuses for Israel’s illegal settlements or Israel’s illegal acquisition of non-Israeli territory or make excuses for not allowing dispossessed people and their children return to their country per their existing Internationally recognized legal rights, YOU ARE responsible.

        “You know, the biggest waves of immigration of Jews into Palestine were from places where they were persecuted, not allowed to integrate into society, or outright killed for being Jewish”

        You know, for the 2,000 years before the Zionist Federation f#%ked things up with their land for money pyramid scheme, Jewish folk could freely immigrate, gain citizenship, buy land and settle in Palestine. Herzl in his life time could have immigrated, gained citizenship in, bought land and settled in Palestine. He didn’t bother nor did his family. Seems they didn’t have faith in his grand play

        ” I agree, this caused huge demographic shift on the Palestine region, whose British rulers allowed this immigration”

        No Greg, they tried to prevent a huge demographic shift according to the relevant articles of the LoN Mandate (1922) Articles 5 and 6, further affirmed in the subsequent white papers http://wp.me/PDB7k-Q/#British-White-Paper-1922 (1922)
        http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1939.asp (1939)

        “Even though many of the immigrants were…”
        … illegal https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/irgunill.html

        ” even though the Jewish immigrants bought land legally and not just coexisted but really helped build up the region side by side with Arabs”

        By demolishing non-Jewish villages, homes, farms, water cisterns … interesting theory Greg

        ” similar rhetoric is happening in the USA today with Mexican immigrants and Syrian refugees, on a smaller scale”

        Except the Zionist Federation who planned in 1897 to colonize Palestine were not refugees. They were free and rich enough to be able to invest and travel internationally

        “Do I want a right of return for children of Palestinian refugees? Yes. But I also don’t want tons of people born in Lebanon to HAVE to move to Israel or Palestine in order to have the same basic civil rights that other Lebanese have”

        Non-Jewish Israeli refugees in Lebanon have RoR to Israel. Palestinian refugees to Palestine, not Israel. Neither are Lebanese. Refugees do not have the same rights as citizens of their host country

        “… everyone should have rights *where they are* first, and these rights should not preclude them from obtaining a civil, orderly permission to move back or get compensation”

        They already do . It’s up to countries to recognize those rights. The Arab States hosting refugees have for the last 68 years. Israel hasn’t

        “The internationally recognized states which actually formed in the region, Jordan and Israel, COULD HAVE DONE IT, organized a return of refugees, and created peace, if not for Egypt and USSR funding the PLO … etc etc … “

        A) The Zionist Federation planned to colonize Palestine in 1897 B) It’s only Israel refusing to adhere to the law that prevents RoR

        “All of this massive immigration have been avoided, and the refugee crisis can still be resolved, if countries were obligated to grant the same rights to every human being who grew up in that country and spent their whole life there”

        Wonderful theory. Say …. How about not dispossessing people in the first place

        The rest of your post is naive

      • RoHa
        January 5, 2016, 12:29 am

        “the Jewish immigrants bought land legally ”

        And evicted the Arab tenant farmers.

        (Do you know that legal isn’t the same as moral?

        “and not just coexisted but really helped build up the region side by side with Arabs.”

        Who told you that tripe? The Zionists built up a Jews-only society with the aim of taking over the land and either subjugating or expelling the Arabs.

        “The internationally recognized states which actually formed in the region, Jordan and Israel, COULD HAVE DONE IT, organized a return of refugees, and created peace”

        Except that from 1948 onwards Israel refused to allow the refugees to return.

        “In the Swiss town of Lausanne, a tripartite committee, representing the United States, France, and Turkey, was convened in order to mediate between the parties. The Palestinians were not invited, since they were no longer recognized as a political entity. But a delegation of three prominent Palestinians did appear, ostensibly to speak for the refugees, but in reality to represent the Palestinian people. They contacted the Israeli representative, Eliyahu Sassoon, and offered to open direct negotiations for peace. On instructions from Jerusalem, Sassoon declined.
        David Ben-Gurion did not want any negotiations that might have compelled him to take back at least some of the refugees, and perhaps even to give back some of the territory just occupied. Contrary to the UN resolution, he was determined to prevent at all costs the establishment of a Palestinian state. He believed that the Palestinian question had been closed, that the very name Palestine had disappeared forever, that the Palestinian people had ceased to exist. ”

        http://www.antiwar.com/orig/avnery.php?articleid=9069

        “Palestinians could have had 80% of the original mandate of Palestine,”

        So you have been fed with the “Jordan is Palestine” tripe, have you?

        “and Jews would have been left with 20%.”

        But they had no right to a state on any of it.

      • GregMozart
        January 7, 2016, 4:46 pm

        RoHa you can keep holding to that position for another 100 years but then you’d only be perpetuating an impasse for another 100 years, while refugees have more stateless children and the refugee problem gets greater. And what are you fighting for? If you think the original influx of Jewish refugees in an area where British imposed their agenda led to problems, what do you think would happen if an influx (forced on individuals, btw, because many people don’t want to have to travel somewhere in order to finally get equal rights) of an even greater number of immigrants happens? Forget the “absorptive capacity of the land” etc. etc. just tell me what you think the outcome would be. People on different sides with different viewpoints than yours aren’t prepared to accept, let alone implement, such radical solutions

        You should really listen to this, take 15 mins and listen to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx5k3E47AoQ

        If you want to push this angle it’s your right, but I’m not on board and neither are many people who want to see the situation resolved in a way that’s achievable and maximizes human rights and well being of everyone, whichever state they currently live under or will live under. More ideology isn’t going to solve anything. More terrorism isn’t going to solve anything. We need stable, internationally recognized states to get involved and work together if we’re ever going to solve this problem.

        And frankly, when I say: “and Jews would have been left with 20%.”
        And you say: “But they had no right to a state on any of it.”
        What is the upshot of what you’re saying?

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2016, 8:34 pm

        “you can keep holding to that position for another 100 years but then you’d only be perpetuating an impasse for another 100 years,”

        Really “Greg”? Why don’t you tell me, looking at all the indicators, how Jewish support of the Zionist project (not to even mention anybody else!) is going to last another 25-50 years, let alone 100!

        Sure, the present impasse is just what everybody wants to live like in Israel, and Jews all over the world support. How does Israel plan to force them to?

        But “Greg” I’m a little puzzled. If the US can recognize your humanity, and get you out of all your obligations to Russia, and come to the US, why can’t Israel recognize the humanity and political rights of the Palestinians?

      • Mooser
        January 7, 2016, 8:38 pm

        “everyone born and living in a country should have civil rights equal to everyone else in that country, free from oppression discrimination etc. without having to move somewhere else.”

        Oh, how cute, Greg has got to using Jewish children as human shields now.

      • RoHa
        January 8, 2016, 3:00 am

        No Greg, my position is one part of breaking down the barrage of justifications that have been thrown up to sustain Zionism. Zionism is the core of the problem.

        “We need stable, internationally recognized states to get involved and work together if we’re ever going to solve this problem. ”

        First, we need Israel to stop exacerbating the problem and take steps to solve it. It is the Israeli Zionists who created the problem, and they are the ones with the greatest power to solve it.

        Israel should start by jettisoning the idea of a Jewish State, and apologising for the creation of one. Next, equal rights for all people inside Palestine. Annex the West Bank and Gaza. Then confirm the citizenship of all the refugees. I agree with you that the refugees should also get the citizenship of the state they were born in. If they have dual citizenship, they will have a free choice of which country to live in.

        I would expect that a lot of refugees would not want to live in Palestine if they had to share it with Israeli Jews. (From what I have heard, Israeli Jews are total arseholes. ) I’m sure many will choose to stay in Lebanon or Jordan.

        Those that do will have to be prepared to work at creating a unified society. It will be difficult, but life isn’t exactly paradise there now.

        No doubt you will now say “The Israeli Jews aren’t going to give up Zionism. It’s unrealistic to suggest it.”

        Probably so.

        But it seems equally unrealistic to expect the Palestinians to give up, and the various Arab states to urge them to do so.

        “And frankly, when I say: “and Jews would have been left with 20%.” And you say: “But they had no right to a state on any of it.” What is the upshot of what you’re saying?”

        I don’t know what you are asking. I am saying that the Jews had no right to create a state there.

        Incidentally, up until the late 1930s, most of the Zionist Jews who went to Palestine were not refugees. Those Jews who were refugees, both before and after WW2, ceased to be refugees when they supported the Zionists. From then on they were invaders.

      • talknic
        January 8, 2016, 7:12 am

        @ GregMozart

        “You should really listen to this, take 15 mins and listen to it: “ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx5k3E47AoQ

        Finkelstein is wrong. All 6 million Palestinians do not have a right to return to Israel and the Palestinians aren’t asking that all 6 million return to Israel

        Only non-Jewish Israelis who were from the territory that became Israel have RoR to Israel. The remainder have RoR to what remained of Palestine after Israel proclaimed its borders http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

        The Palestinian demand is under UNGA res 194 of 1948.

        The UNRWA definition of a refugee wasn’t adopted until 1949 and is only to ascertain who has a right to UNRWA assistance while they’re a refugee, it has nothing to do with final status

        “If you want to push this angle it’s your right, but I’m not on board and neither are many people who want to see the situation resolved in a way that’s achievable and maximizes human rights and well being of everyone, whichever state they currently live under or will live under”

        Israel’s leaders should have thought of that in 1948, instead of dispossessing people to get more land after having already been afforded over half of Palestine for the Jewish state, completely gratis.

        “More ideology isn’t going to solve anything. More terrorism isn’t going to solve anything. We need stable, internationally recognized states to get involved and work together if we’re ever going to solve this problem”

        How about Israel adhere to the law and the UN Charter and its actual borders for once

      • GregMozart
        January 9, 2016, 6:16 pm

        It’s not just Finkelstein. Every country in the world is talking about the two state solution as the framework. There is no country that’s advancing the idea of dismantling Israel. And it’s not just that. Leaders like Hamas who keep pushing this thing about dismantling Israel are just perpetuating the same thing over and over. Here for example is Cenk Uygur, hardly a Zionist shill, saying the same thing as me. Watch him react to Khaled Meshaal’s interview on Charlie Rose: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tsT7qToIH0 .

        But if you want to say that Israel is currently occupying Haifa, you can push that line. Just guys like me and Cenk and Finkelstein and others will be telling you that you’re perpetuating the problem. I agree that the two state solution is also not viable, but that doesn’t mean a one state solution is the only alternative. I believe for example that if we returned to REAL pre-1967 situation, and remove the PLO and Hamas, that would give Palestinians living in the West Bank real access to both the Jordanian and Israeli economies. Abbas is getting old anyway, and a change is in the air. Why not use stable states and give people equal civil rights where they currently live, without creating new states, or e.g. forcing Lebanese-born Palestinians to move to Palestine? All these countries should take some of the refugees, no one should move, everyone should get civil rights, the whole thing should be solved that way. That’s what I keep saying. I believe it will eventually happen, but the more we support the terrorist organizations in the name of justice the more we delay it. In fact, if not for the terrorists, we could have had peace and stability by now. If Irgun didn’t do a massacre at Deir Yassin then Jordan wouldn’t have even entered the war. If PLO didn’t fight the Israelis and draw their fire into Jordan, Jordan wouldn’t have entered the 1967 war. If PLO didn’t fight Jordan, they wouldn’t have given up the West Bank. And etc. etc.

      • eljay
        January 9, 2016, 8:03 pm

        || GregMozart: … the more we support the terrorist organizations in the name of justice the more we delay it. In fact, if not for the terrorists, we could have had peace and stability by now. … ||

        So let’s stop funding all terrorist organizations, from Hamas right on up to the largest, best armed and most powerful terrorist organization in the I-P conflict: The oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, religion-supremacist and extremely well-armed “Jewish State”.

        And let’s stick to advocating, defending and supporting the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality to this conflict (and to all other conflicts).

      • GregMozart
        January 9, 2016, 8:47 pm

        “So let’s stop funding all terrorist organizations, from Hamas right on up to the largest, best armed and most powerful terrorist organization in the I-P conflict: The oppressive, colonialist, expansionist, religion-supremacist and extremely well-armed “Jewish State”.”

        You know perfectly well that an internationally recognized state and a terrorist organization are different things. Many states are oppressive, expansionist, have poor civil rights records etc. and these are indeed issues that need to be addressed, but that is different from being a terrorist organization. Equating the two shows extreme bias. States have a stable structure, law enforcement, constitutions, a political process, and a better ability to come to a lasting agreement with one another that will actually be honored. Hamas for example got the Middle East Quartet *including the UN* to impose sanctions on all the people of Gaza, for refusing to recognize Israel and honor any previous agreements. Then they attacked Fatah, kicked out the rest of the goernment, killed a lot of people, and took control of the entire Gaza strip, after which the strip was blockaded by Egypt and Israel. How did this help Gazans? It didn’t! Hamas is terrible for Gazans. It’s not a real state. If not for Hamas, actually, there would have been no blockade, and the PA would have had a chance to rule the whole Gaza strip and probably get much better results, including those greenhouses but also a million other things.

        I agree, however, that the USA should stop shipping weapons to the middle east. Including to Israel.

        “And let’s stick to advocating, defending and supporting the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality to this conflict (and to all other conflicts).”

        I stick to advocating and supporting the universal and consistent application of human rights for people by states in whose jurisdiction they live today. And for states to make agreements with one another to ensure such protections to all individuals, regardless of their nationality, beliefs, etc. And when terrorist organizations want to push their ideology, they often get in the way of these stable resolutions.

        Just as one example of many: when Netanyahu put a 10 month moratorium on settlements in 2010 and direct talks with the PA / Abbas looked like they might lead to something, what did Hamas + Islamic Jihad do? From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2%80%9311_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_peace_talks#2010-2011_Israel-Palestinian_peace_talks

        “During the direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, Hamas and Hezbollah reaffirmed to threat peace talks if both sides were matriculated towards any possible agreement. A Hamas-led coalition of 13 Palestinian militant groups initiated a violent campaign to disrupt peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. A series of attacks killed and wounded eight Israelis, including two pregnant women, between August and September 2010. Israeli and Palestinian Authority security forces responded with raids that resulted in the deaths and arrests of militants involved in the attacks. Rocket and mortar attacks from the Hamas-run Gaza Strip also increased in September.”

        Do you not see what I am saying accurately describes the situation? There is a difference between stability and ideology. States and terrorism. States have to commit to stability, ideology, and civil rights. Terrorists don’t respect anything, and often try to destroy the stability that would form if it is against their ideology.

      • Mooser
        January 9, 2016, 8:57 pm

        “Just as one example of many: when Netanyahu put a 10 month moratorium on settlements in…”

        SQUELCH!!! Ewwwww!

        And yes, I agree, Greg, an intransigent state is demonstrably historically, much worse than any “terrorist organization” could be or ever has been.

        “States have a stable structure, law enforcement, constitutions, a political process, and a better ability to come to a lasting agreement with one another that will actually be honored.”

        But Israel does not in point of fact have those things! Israel doesn’t even know where it is. They apparently can’t control their own people (settlers, Jerusalem) how the hell are they going to keep any agreements? Please

        Oh, and Greg, your engine is making that coughing sound (“Chamas, terrorist, Chamas, terrorist, Chamas”) which usually means a Israel-supporter is out of gas.

      • eljay
        January 9, 2016, 9:04 pm

        || GregMozart: You know perfectly well that an internationally recognized state and a terrorist organization are different things. … ||

        You know very well that states can and do commit acts of terrorism.

        || … Equating the two shows extreme bias. … ||

        Continually…
        – absolving Israel of its past and on-going acts of terrorism and its obligations under international law; and
        – supporting Israel in spite of its past and on-going acts of terrorism and its refusal to honour its obligations under international law,
        …shows extreme bias.

        || … I stick to advocating and supporting the universal and consistent application of human rights for people by states in whose jurisdiction they live today. … ||

        But because you’re a Zio-supremacist, you don’t advocate or support the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality. No surprise there.

        || … There is a difference between stability and ideology. States and terrorism. States have to commit to stability, ideology, and civil rights. Terrorists don’t respect anything … ||

        Great idea! Let’s end the terrorism by recognizing Palestine as a state, weaponizing it and allowing it to commit to stability, ideology and civil rights just like Israel does. Let others do unto Israel what Israel does unto others. Very consistent. Glad you agree.

      • GregMozart
        January 9, 2016, 9:09 pm

        Just as another example, I just wrote to Noam Chomsky in our correspondence, and received the same response along the lines of what I am telling you:

        They are saying no one has to go home, but are talking about a one-state solution where the current Israeli government is replaced with a state over all Palestine, but where there is one person, one vote. And a right of return for all refugees. No one is talking about Jews going back home.

        Chomsky: No idea what this is supposed to mean.

        It means the BDS movement, Hamas and others are not saying all the Jews will have to move back home (that’s the straw man), they are calling for the dismantling of a Jewish state in Palestine, ending of a two state solution which isn’t working, and replacing it with a one state solution in which a new state, let’s call it Israel-Palestine, is formed with citizenship for everyone in Gaza, West Bank and Israel, Jew and Arab alike. And a right of return for all refugees.

        Chomsky: Correct, and of precisely zero relevance to what I wrote. Or to the fact that since this is all pie in the sky, advocacy of it is a great gift to Israeli hawks, exactly as I have repeatedly written and attempted to explain to you over and over.

        So now Chomsky, Finkelstein, Cenk Uygur and everyone else is wrong that this ideology perpetuates the problem for Palestinians? People who have spent a long time speaking out for Palestinians are all wrong, because they don’t agree with this particular ideology?

      • Sibiriak
        January 9, 2016, 9:19 pm

        GregMozart: There is a difference between stability and ideology. States and terrorism.

        —————-

        No, terrorism is a tactic — the deliberate harming of civilians (non-combatants) to instill terror –used in pursuit of political, social, military etc. ends. This tactic can be used by states, sub-state groups or individuals.

      • Mooser
        January 9, 2016, 9:35 pm

        “Many states are oppressive, expansionist, have poor civil rights records etc. and these are indeed issues that need to be addressed, but that is different from being a terrorist organization.”

        Of course! Being a sovereign state, and a member of the UN, gives you less responsibilities, and more excuses than a “terrorist organization” (BTW which “terrorist organization” are you referring to?)

      • Mooser
        January 9, 2016, 9:57 pm

        Just as another example, I just wrote to Noam Chomsky in our correspondence, and received the same response

        Well, I must say, this is very interesting. How gracious of Prof. Chomsky, responding to a private inquiry so promptly. Pity you didn’t return the favor by clearly indicating where you are, and are not quoting him.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 9, 2016, 10:53 pm

        mooser, did you notice this:

        they are calling for the dismantling

        no one in the bds movement has called for the “dismantling” of israel. did he quote anyone here, or just pretend like he was representing our views? in this alleged conversation w/chomsky anyway.

      • Mooser
        January 9, 2016, 10:12 pm

        “There is a difference between stability and ideology. States and terrorism. States have to commit to stability, ideology, and civil rights.”

        Israel’s commitment to stability? Consists of what?
        Israel’s commitment to “ideology”? Well yes, of course, Zionism, as they will certainly tell you themselves, is their ideology. You think it’s a good or workable one?
        Israel’s commitment to “civil rights” Don’t make me laugh. Civil rights are not in the Israeli “ideology” are they?

      • RoHa
        January 9, 2016, 10:49 pm

        “So now Chomsky, Finkelstein, Cenk Uygur and everyone else is wrong that this ideology perpetuates the problem for Palestinians? People who have spent a long time speaking out for Palestinians are all wrong, because they don’t agree with this particular ideology?”

        Quite possibly.

        I am too old to be impressed by big names and conventional wisdom. I’ve seen them come, and I’ve seen them go. I’ve seen them vindicated, and I’ve seen them refuted. I take them seriously, but I follow my own mind.

      • GregMozart
        January 9, 2016, 11:38 pm

        “I am too old to be impressed by big names and conventional wisdom. I’ve seen them come, and I’ve seen them go. I’ve seen them vindicated, and I’ve seen them refuted. I take them seriously, but I follow my own mind.”

        I actually applaud that, RoHa.

        I think that if all religions were proven false, the one state solution would be one of the solutions that could work. Zionism is based in Judaism, while Islam has a great deal to do with the desire to have non Jewish control of Palestine, as can be especially seen in the case of Jerusalem. As it is, we don’t know which religion, if any, is correct. And therefore we don’t know whether this is all part of Israel’s return to the land as we have in Torah.

        Regardless, the two state solution – I think we both agree – is based on consessions from both sides, who have territorial maximalists. Jewish religious settlers are settling because they want to resist what they consider the international community is doing to prevent them from living where they have had so much history. They’d rather build in no-man’s land than Haifa and Jaffa. On the other hand, leftists care more about having Israel as a state, and are ok with the 67 borders. Similarly, among Palestinians, the Islamic organizations like Islamic Jihad and Hamas would not want Israel to exist. While some have sold out for pragmatic solutions, such as Arafat, causing the PFLP and others to split from the PLO back when he announced the 10-point plan.

        Some of my Jewish settler friends strongly believe in the Right of Return and absolute equality for everyone in the land. Their solutions agree more with you and BDS than w my views. For example I would be very curious what you think of this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zc8fYgC86rA

        My own assessment agrees w Chomsky and Finkelstein and Cenk Uygur: the 1 state solution is not in the cards. Where I disagree is I think two state solution is unachievable, and frankly, I don’t know why Palestinians should get such a small Palestinian state when under Jordan they had a whole lot more. Even if they did, the same # of Palestinians would still live in Jordan and they seem to be ok with its sovereignty over them. I care more about welfare of individuals than creating new states.

        About states using violence: I fully agree! Israel should stop, and so should Russia, Turkey, the US, Ukraine, Pakistan and every other state. Russia for example razed the entire freaking capitol of Chechnya and bombed its whole population, just 10 years ago… where is the Muslim outcry about Russia? Why isnt Iran’s ayatollah hating it? But while I do not excuse Russia at all, I see what precedes all these attacks … it is terrorists who light the flint that’s already burning. In the case of Russiait was Chechen terrorists. And often they are state sponsored indeed. So where would I start? I would start by empowering moderates to fight terror. Things that moderate Palestinians can do without supporting Hamas: concentrating their energy in calling for the continuous improvement of efficiency and safety checks at Gaza crossings for example, stationing of international observers there, tracking $ sent to Gaza, attracting investors to build there, etc. Soon Hamas will become irrelevant and people will live better. This is all stuff that can be done by non-political people, regular activists. I can do it.

        Annie: Hamas does in fact call for dismantling of the Jewish state, because it is considered occupiers [..]. Why do you keep muddying the issue? And yes that was really Chomsky. I talk w him and Finkelstein and others.

      • Mooser
        January 10, 2016, 12:43 am

        “did he quote anyone here, or just pretend…”

        Annie, is Professor Chomsky one of the nicest guys around, or is he not? Answers promptly, allows his private correspondence to be used in public without proper attributions or even quote marks, and be edited and excised at will. A Prince, that guy is. Very generous.

      • RoHa
        January 12, 2016, 1:56 am

        “the two state solution – I think we both agree – is based on consessions from both sides”

        I do not agree. Israel is not conceding anything it has a right to keep. The Jewish settlers have no right to take over land.

        ” I don’t know why Palestinians should get such a small Palestinian state when under Jordan they had a whole lot more.”

        So you think the West Bank should be re-attached to Jordan, recreating the pre-1967 situation? Again, Israel causes the trouble, and makes no concessions, no apologies, no reparations.

        Of course, for the Palestinians, the issue isn’t really a state, it is having the right to live in Palestine, their homeland. All of it.

        “While some have sold out for pragmatic solutions, such as Arafat, causing the PFLP and others to split from the PLO back when he announced the 10-point plan. ”

        Sentence fragment. Is this supposed to be attached to the previous sentence, or did you forget to add another clause?

  23. Ossinev
    January 5, 2016, 10:01 am

    Meanwhile back in the modern day Land of Creation Nitay and Co are getting worried that their very own little Vichy State in the West Bank arrangement is about to implode:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-girding-for-possible-palestinian-authority-collapse-report/

    It would appear that the PA Petains may not actually hand back the keys – they will simply be forced to abandon them as they are seen to be more and more and more irrelevant by their”own” people.

    No signs of serious panic yet amongst Nitayites but then again these morons and their predecessors have been living in Never Never Land since 1948 and feast on self denial and self delusion everyday. As in what`s the problem, we are the Chosen People , we have got lots of F15`s and nuclear weapons, it will all be sorted out,the Palestinians will just go away,die emigrate or something like that and even if we do encounter a few problems like having to actually govern “Judea and Samaria” and actually pay for it we can always instruct the USA to give us more money and support us when we are being boycotted because we are not granting civil rights to these remaining Palestinian vermin squatting in our ancient God given homeland.

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