Reebok backtracks on Israel Independence Day-inspired sneaker (Updated)

Israel/Palestine
on 161 Comments

Editor’s note: Reebok is now distancing itself from the Israel shoe. It said in a statement today the footwear was “prepared by an independent designer and should not be presented as a product by the company’s international brand.”

A post regarding the online auction for the Israel 68 trainers, which first appeared on Reebok Israel’s Facebook page on May 9, 2016, has since been removed. 

Next week Palestinians will memorialize the starting point of their plight as a stateless people, observing the Nakba, literally “the catastrophe” in Arabic. The day is a commemoration of the demolition of more than 500 villages during the 1948 war, and the fleeing and expulsion of at least 700,000 people. At the same time Israelis will picnic and mark their own holiday, celebrating Israel’s Independence Day.

This year the athletic retailer Reebok has designed a special commemorative sneaker for Israel and its 68th independence celebrated on May 12, 2016, coinciding with the Palestinian Nakba, which will be observed three days later because of differences in the Jewish and Gregorian calendars.

Typically Israeli streets are lined with flags of the Jewish-state in the weeks before the celebration. The Reebok shoe follows the motif. It is blue and white and says “Israel 68” on the sole. And “the pump” on the upper.

Reebok will auction the shoes on Facebook though July 7th.

It’s not like we’ll see a “Palestinian Nakba” shoe on the market anytime soon. Most Nakba observances take place in the West Bank, but increasingly Palestinian citizens of Israel and Israeli activists have organized events in Israel’s urban hubs. In years past they drew intense counter-protest and a police presence, often organized by the group Im Tirtzu who produced a pamphlet for the event titles Nakba Harta, or “Nakba is bullshit.”

Otherwise for Israelis the holiday passes without much notice.

About Allison Deger

Allison Deger is the Assistant Editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow her on twitter at @allissoncd.

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161 Responses

  1. John O
    May 9, 2016, 3:05 pm

    I guess the board of Reebok have never heard of Sodastream.

  2. John O
    May 9, 2016, 3:18 pm

    I can hear a noise. What is it? It’s Steve Grover tripping over his feet to order a pair while drinking Samarian wine.

    • Marnie
      May 10, 2016, 1:08 am

      Ha!

      Those are some uuggaallyy shoes, which makes a perfect pairing with the sour grapes of settlement wines.

      • rosross
        May 11, 2016, 3:16 am

        Powerfully symbolic given how Israel walks all over and tramples into the dirt the indigenous people of the land it has stolen.

  3. just
    May 9, 2016, 3:25 pm

    Thanks, Allison.

    2 articles I found today wrt Israel’s ‘Independence’.

    “IN PICTURES / VE Day celebrated in Ashdod with weapons exhibit”

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.718656

    ~and~

    “On Eve of 68th Independence Day, Israel’s Population Hits 8.5 Million

    Jewish population in Israel grew tenfold since establishment • 43% of the world’s Jews live in Israel today, compared to just 6% in 1948.”

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718791

    No mention of the Nakba there, either.

    P.S. Boycott Reebok

    • Kay24
      May 9, 2016, 3:53 pm

      Well they tried to coax Jews around the world to come and live in squatter abodes, and even got some from India and some African nations. Apparently the Iranian Jews refused to do so, preferring to continue their lives in Iran, turning down thousands of dollars in bribes offered by Israel, which shows Iran is where they prefer to live, not in zio land. They are desperate to colonize the stolen spaces, so that the International community will find it hard to uproot the illegal squatters. Much as they might try, the will never outnumber their Arab neighbors.

      • Mikhael
        May 9, 2016, 10:48 pm

        Kay24 May 9, 2016, 3:53 pm
        Apparently the Iranian Jews refused to do so, preferring to continue their lives in Iran, turning down thousands of dollars in bribes offered by Israel, which shows Iran is where they prefer to live, not in zio land.

        There are approximately a quarter-million Israelis of Iranian-Jewish heritage. In Iran itself, only about 10,000 Jews (the majority of whom are elderly)remain, down from a pre-1979 Revolution Jewish population of around 100,000. Even before the ayotollahs took power , when things were actually very good for Jews in Iran and when Iran had good relations with Israel, 30,000+ Jews left for Israel. Following the Revolution, 90% of the Iranian Jews have left for Israel, the USA, Canada and the UK. Iranian-Jewish communities in North America are extremely tight-knit and have close relations with their relatives in Israel, and form one of the most pro-Israel and Zionist constituencies of American Jewry.

      • Kay24
        May 10, 2016, 12:13 pm

        The United States State Department estimated the number of Jews in Iran at 20,000–25,000 as of 2009.[59]

        I am sure Israel would LOVE to get all those Iranian Jews to move into illegal abodes and fill ’em up. It must have been disappointing that thousands of Jews still remains in Iran, after all how can Netanyahu keep saying it is such a nasty country, when some of their own refuses to leave.

      • Citizen
        May 10, 2016, 1:34 pm

        @ Mikhael,, ever check out Shahs of Sunset reality tv series? All about Iranians & their food & bling, & very pro-Israel.

      • just
        May 10, 2016, 2:29 pm

        O/T, but about Iran:

        “Iran to Challenge U.S. Ruling on Payment to Terror Victims in ICJ

        Rohani vows to bring case to The Hague after U.S. Supreme Court rules that frozen Iranian assets may be seized to pay the victims of Iranian-sponsored attacks.”

        read more: http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/iran/1.719015?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

      • xanadou
        May 10, 2016, 5:42 pm

        Kay,
        in this thread Mikhael writes about the tight knit iranian-israeli Jews and their unquestioning loyalty to Israel. I can confirm that fanatical devotion: I live in a ‘hood dominated by these people, and b/c of my my nigh on daily reposts to my blog, of articles and videos from MW, +972, and others, I now understand their years’ long persecution directed at me and expressed in a number of ways, including thorough destruction of my 4th amendment rights to person, papers, possessions and property, including redirecting my connection to the internet to and thru a filter that allows them to censor my internet activities. In effect erasing any all of my rights to all forms of privacy. But this descendant of WW2 Resistance fighters, too many of whom had died to save an untold number of Jews during the period leading up, to and during the destruction of, the Warsaw Ghetto, I am equally dedicated to fight against gross injustices, in the spirit of the motto ”For your freedom and mine”, including those perpetrated on Palestinians. Compared to my antecedents, it’s an easy task; my life is not at risk. I hope.

        If Israel is so very much in need of citizens imbued with uncritical support of their genocidal country’s policies, one wonders why would the fanatical faithful elect to emigrate to places like the US. Unless they are here as Israel’s fifth column, even if they know that they are watched by US authorities, which may explain their paranoia directed at, and obsession with, nobodies such as I.

      • Kay24
        May 10, 2016, 6:43 pm

        Xanadou, your comment gives an interesting perspective to this situation. They must come here because things are better, and some to be loyal servants to the cause. Those birthright trips are for reasons, and feeling a dedication to the motherland at any cost, right or wrong, must be one of them.

      • Mooser
        May 10, 2016, 6:55 pm

        “I now understand their years’ long persecution directed at me and expressed in a number of ways, including thorough destruction of my 4th amendment rights to person, papers, possessions and property, including redirecting my connection to the internet to and thru a filter that allows them to censor my internet activities. In effect erasing any all of my rights to all forms of privacy.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/05/auctions-independence-inspired/#comment-166383

        Gosh, that’s tough. You got it bad, and that ain’t good. I remember earlier, didn’t you have some problems with people in your attic? Good luck, “xanadou” But once they’ve got your rights to person, you got a problem. Everybody has a right to person the government.

        “Unless they are here as Israel’s fifth column, even if they know that they are watched by US authorities, which may explain their paranoia directed at, and obsession with, nobodies such as I.”

        That, as you so eloquently say, would explain it.

      • Mooser
        May 10, 2016, 7:23 pm
      • hoya saxa
        May 12, 2016, 12:09 pm

        What it ACTUALLY says in the State department for the population of jews in iran is “Unofficial estimates of the Jewish community’s size varied from20,000 to 30,000.”

        Thanks anyway Kay. Keep your lies coming. Very official of you. In the meantime the ACTUAL census of Iran puts the number under 10,000.

      • eljay
        May 12, 2016, 12:47 pm

        || hoya saxa: … the ACTUAL census of Iran puts the number under 10,000. ||

        According to the Selected Findings of National Population and Housing Census, 2011 (PDF):

        TABLE 3. POPULATION BY RELIGION: 2006 AND 2011
        Description          2006    2011
        . . .
        Jewish……….…..   9252     8756
        . . .

        There’s no indication of the size of the population of Jewish people by tribe, collective, ethnicity, culture, nation or civilization (or dessert topping or floor wax).

      • Mikhael
        May 22, 2016, 9:25 am

        Citizen May 10, 2016, 1:34 pm

        @ Mikhael,, ever check out Shahs of Sunset reality tv series? All about Iranians & their food & bling, & very pro-Israel

        I’ve heard of it, but I I don’t have cable TV (I suppose it’s streamable too and there must be clips of it on YouTube) and I don’t understand what the point is of any of these “reality” shows anyway.

        Fromwhat I understand, it’s about Iranian-Americans on the West Coast, Jewish and Muslim. Bling or not (and yeah, they tend ot be into bling) Iranian Jews are pro-Israel and super Zionist. This is a fact that you guys need to wrap your head around. If the Jews in Iran could really speak freely without fear of repercussion, you’d see that most of them would express similar opinions.

      • Mikhael
        May 22, 2016, 7:59 pm

        echinococcus May 22, 2016, 12:03 pm

        While it is sooo rational, isn’t it, according to typical Zionist “thinking”, not to compare it to what happened to any non-“Jewish” Iranians, like secular or averse to dictatorship or any number of preferences or just because they could, who moved their feet, too.

        Yes, many secular, non-Jewish Iranians who were averse to dictatorship (or who had close ties to the previous dictatorship) also left. That fact is not relevant to what was being discussed, which is that the majority of Iranian Jews, many of them who are Zionist , secular and avrese to dictatorship, found the post-Revolution situation there intolerable there and most have chosen to leave.

        Oh no, it’s just us and everybody is out to get only us –and that’s why Zionists are justified in stealing and murdering!

        Nobody is justified in stealing and murdering., but Jews were justified in seeking national self-determination in their own ancestral homeland. This goal has been achieved and won’t be overturned, no matter how much you guys stomp and kick your feet. Even before the “Islamic Revolution” some 30,000 Iranian Jews left for Israel in the 1950s and 1960s, at a time when Jews in Iran fared quite well under the Shah. In fact, there was an influx of Persian Jews who were migrating to Jeruaslem during the end of the Qajar dynasty and the twilight of the Ottoman Empire. The connection of Jews from Iran to Eres Yisrael is nothing new and the fact that even if one accepts Kay24’s exaggerated figure of 20,000 Jews living in Iran, it still means 80% have left in the past 35 years.

  4. JWalters
    May 9, 2016, 8:58 pm

    Perhaps one day Mondoweiss will supplant the NYT because of its reliable integrity.

  5. Mikhael
    May 9, 2016, 10:56 pm

    Thanks for spreading the word, I’ll bid for a pair. You can get them on Reebok’s Facebook page.

    • a blah chick
      May 10, 2016, 10:26 am

      You should paint little figures running along the bottom with Palmach guys chasing them with machine guns to get the full flavor of the moment.

      • Mikhael
        May 22, 2016, 9:46 am

        a blah chick May 10, 2016, 10:26 am

        You should paint little figures running along the bottom with Palmach guys

        Palmach?! Do I seem like a communist?

        Anyway, the rumors were untrue. I would have bought them and posted the pics anway on Mondowess

      • Mooser
        May 22, 2016, 12:53 pm

        .” I would have bought them and posted the pics…” “Mikhael”

        Sure, sure, cause you have raw Zionist power over the Mondo Mods!
        Why, if you want to make a fool of yourself, those pipsqueak Mods can’t stop you! They must publish your pictures, or else! You’ll show us.

        Oh yeah, Zionism is in good hands.

      • Mikhael
        May 22, 2016, 8:03 pm

        Mooser May 22, 2016, 12:53 pm

        Sure, sure, cause you have raw Zionist power over the Mondo Mods!
        Why, if you want to make a fool of yourself, those pipsqueak Mods can’t stop you! They must publish your pictures, or else! You’ll show us.

        What, why wouldn’t our moderators here on Mondoweiss t to let me show a pic of my fancy new Israel-inspired (and probably China-manufactured) Reeboks? Are you suggesting they would want to censor somebody?

        Oh yeah, Zionism is in good hands.

      • Mooser
        May 22, 2016, 10:37 pm

        “What, why wouldn’t our moderators here on Mondoweiss t to let me show a pic of my fancy new Israel-inspired (and probably China-manufactured) Reeboks?”

        Oh, I’m sure they would, provided you agreed not to hold them responsible for any paternity suits which arise from the pictures.

      • Mikhael
        June 5, 2016, 2:14 pm

        Mooser May 22, 2016, 10:37 pm

        “What, why wouldn’t our moderators here on Mondoweiss t to let me show a pic of my fancy new Israel-inspired (and probably China-manufactured) Reeboks?”

        Oh, I’m sure they would, provided you agreed not to hold them responsible for any paternity suits which arise from the pictures.

        I bought some Teva shoes instead, which is a better way to support Israel and are of high quality. I still need a new pair of sneakers, though,

        I still don’t understand why you think you are insulting me by your reference to the fact that I am a proud father of Jewish children and that I take my parental obligations seriously and make timely child support parents to my ex-wives. It’s hard to believe that my American daughter will be a college junior next year, and my twin Israeli daughters will be starting secondary school in Jerusalem at the end of the summer and then before you know it, they’ll be inducted into the IDF, and me a young 46.

      • Mooser
        June 5, 2016, 4:46 pm

        ” I take my parental obligations seriously and make timely child support parents to my ex-wives.”

        You’re such a mensch, “Mikheel”.

      • Mikhael
        June 5, 2016, 9:42 pm

        You’re such a mensch, “Mikheel”.

        The equivalent expression in Hebrew, the national language of the Jews and my mother tongue, is “ben-adam”. (My family doesn’t speak Yiddish, not even my Ashkenazi mother, though of course I’ve picked up some as a former yeshiva student in Boro Park, and by hanging around American Jews.) The fact that I am a responsible parent is not what makes me a mensch, although I do my best to to be one, by working hard, paying taxes, being generally polite to people , etc.

      • echinococcus
        June 6, 2016, 1:08 am

        Michael,

        “The equivalent expression in Hebrew”
        You mean Constructed language “Modern Hebrew”, an 1890s nationalist-aggressive invention? The nonsense language to kill the mother tongues in the interest of invader pirates?

        ” the national language of the Jews”
        How so? Jews had a lot of national languages, in each country, or even some specifically Jewish ones in particular cultures. A richness that was anathema to the Zionists, a political criminal conspiracy with no necessary religious bonds.

        “and my mother tongue”
        which makes you a monstrous product of colonialist social

        “My family doesn’t speak Yiddish, not even my Ashkenazi mother”
        Not even ashamed of it?

        “The fact that I am a responsible parent is not what makes me a mensch, although I do my best to to be one, by working hard, paying taxes, being generally polite to people , etc.”
        There you see what mistakes ignorance of Yiddish may lead to: a mensch in Yiddish, as different from the Standard German, is not just a human but a person who hurts with every victim of the crimes committed by his relatives.
        No mensch approves invasion, racial supremacy, colonialism and genocide; no mensch among the Zionists. They may be anatomically human and that’s all.

      • Mooser
        June 6, 2016, 11:02 am

        “The fact that I am a responsible parent…”

        Yup, you keep telling us and yourself that. And you keep claiming you make your court-ordered payments. Whatever.

        Well, “Mikheel”, I’m sure you divide your resources and earnings and time very fairly between your various, uh, companions and offspring.

        I have suggested many times that the diminution of our population resources can be solved by polygamy. But I’m not brave enough to try it.

      • Mooser
        June 6, 2016, 3:40 pm

        “being generally polite to people , etc.”

        “Polite”? Don’t sell yourself short “Mikhael”. You must be a real charmer.

      • Mikhael
        June 21, 2016, 2:57 am

        echinococcus June 6, 2016, 1:08 am
        Michael,

        “The equivalent expression in Hebrew”
        You mean Constructed language “Modern Hebrew”, an 1890s nationalist-aggressive invention? The nonsense language to kill the mother tongues in the interest of invader pirates?

        Modern Hebrew is not a constructed language. The modern Israeli-Hebrew is supple and rich in its spoken and literary form, expressed in poetry, humor and popular songs. Only an ignoramus would speak of it so derisively.

        ” the national language of the Jews”
        How so? Jews had a lot of national languages, in each country, or even some specifically Jewish ones in particular cultures. A richness that was anathema to the Zionists, a political criminal conspiracy with no necessary religious bonds.

        Hebrew is the common ancestral language of all the historical Jewish groups of the Diaspora and all Jews can claim it is their heritage.

        “My family doesn’t speak Yiddish, not even my Ashkenazi mother”
        Not even ashamed of it?

        Why should I be ashamed of not speaking a hybrid jargon of medieval German, Hebrew, and Aramaic. My assimilationist Hungarian-Jewish ancestors adopted standard German and later Hungarian in the 19th century, by my mother’s generation our family in Israel had reverted to our ancestral Hebrew. On the Syrian/Sephardic side we all speak Hebrew as well.

        There you see what mistakes ignorance of Yiddish may lead to: a mensch in Yiddish, as different from the Standard German, is not just a human but a person who hurts with every victim of the crimes committed by his relatives.
        No mensch approves invasion, racial supremacy, colonialism and genocide; no mensch among the Zionists. They may be anatomically human and that’s all.

        You’re not a morally fit person and thus you are incapable of lecturing what “menshlikhkeit” entails as you dehumanize an entire national society and deny our common national identity. Your allegations of “racial supremacy”, “colonialism” and “genocide”are just senseless bleatings without any basis.

      • Mikhael
        June 21, 2016, 2:59 am

        Mooser June 6, 2016, 3:40 pm
        “being generally polite to people , etc.”

        “Polite”? Don’t sell yourself short “Mikhael”. You must be a real charmer.

        It’s my nature to be polite, even to people who don’t deserve it.

      • Mikhael
        June 21, 2016, 3:10 am

        Mooser June 6, 2016, 11:02 am

        Yup, you keep telling us and yourself that. And you keep claiming you make your court-ordered payments. Whatever.

        Well, “Mikheel”, I’m sure you divide your resources and earnings and time very fairly between your various, uh, companions and offspring

        At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with), and taking care of an octogenarian mother and paying money to my teen twins in Israel and my American college-age daughter, doesn’t leave me time for any “companions”. There’s also nothing extraordinary about a middle-aged dad who’s been married three times and has kids with two exes, and your prurient harping on it as if it’s evidence of a moral failing of my part is puzzling. I know you’re old, but the Victorian era was over a century ago, dude.I’m a pretty tame guy in any case.

      • Mooser
        June 21, 2016, 3:59 am

        “I know you’re old, but the Victorian era was over a century ago,”

        I have an old-fashioned Jewish morality about marriage, and monogamy . I idealize it, too. I’ll admit to that any day. Idolized my Dad as a husband,( from a kid’s viewpoint) and wanted to live up to that. And I think of it as a Jewish characteristic. (Not exclusive to Jews of course!)
        That’s me, and I like it that way.

      • Mooser
        June 21, 2016, 6:45 am

        “You’re not a morally fit person and thus you are incapable of lecturing what “menshlikhkeit” entails as you dehumanize an entire national society and deny our common national identity. It’s my nature to be polite, even to people who don’t deserve it.” – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/recent-comments/#sthash.yLw0O6Ba.dpuf

      • Mooser
        June 21, 2016, 6:52 am

        “At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with),There’s also nothing extraordinary about a middle-aged dad who’s been married three times and has kids with two exes, “

        Yes, it’s a very good explication of two Yiddish words. You show how a schlemiel can be his own schlimazel.
        You knock the trees over, and they fall on you.

      • Mikhael
        June 22, 2016, 2:33 pm

        Mooser June 21, 2016, 6:52 am

        “At 45, and having been married three times (I wound up marrying every woman I was intimate with),There’s also nothing extraordinary about a middle-aged dad who’s been married three times and has kids with two exes, “

        Yes, it’s a very good explication of two Yiddish words. You show how a schlemiel can be his own schlimazel.
        You knock the trees over, and they fall on you.

        Are you really trying to insinuate through your clumsy faux Yiddidsh that you pretend to have command over, gained, no doubt, from swallowing Leo Rosten’s coffee table books, that I, as a father of three daughters who I support through working hard, am the author of some kind of misfortune that I caused to myself? Seriously?

      • Mikhael
        June 22, 2016, 2:43 pm

        Mooser June 21, 2016, 3:59 am

        I have an old-fashioned Jewish morality about marriage, and monogamy . I idealize it, too. I’ll admit to that any day. Idolized my Dad as a husband,( from a kid’s viewpoint) and wanted to live up to that. And I think of it as a Jewish characteristic. (Not exclusive to Jews of course!)
        That’s me, and I like it that way.

        That’s fair enough and you’re entitled to your opinions, but old-fashioned Jewish religious law (halakha) and customs allows for the scenario that when couples can’t make a marriage work they should divorce. That’s often a much healthier option than forcing two people who can’t get along to live togethe when it’s not meant to be. It’s a a great analogy for the Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute.

      • Mooser
        June 22, 2016, 5:40 pm

        “scenario that when couples can’t make a marriage work they should divorce.”

        So, they weren’t going for polygamy, or bigamy? Had to make it serial monogamy?
        Mikheal, let’s bring this conversation back to where it started. I can’t deny you did your best, according to your lights, to raise the Jewish birth-rate. Good work. Happy now?

        And BTW, isn’t this just a bit one-sided? Wouldn’t it be a tad more convincing for your ex-wives and/or children to write in and praise your qualities as lover, husband and father? I’ll look forward to it.

        And since this is an activist-oriented website, I can’t accuse you of “doth protest too much”! We’re all about protest. You win.

      • Mooser
        June 22, 2016, 5:50 pm

        “Are you really trying to insinuate through your clumsy faux Yiddidsh that you pretend to have command over, gained, no doubt, from swallowing Leo Rosten’s coffee table books”

        Why you son-of-a,
        okay, you’ve stumbled on to a very painful subject.
        Yes, I was totally pissed, very mad, when I found out that’s where my Mom, Dad, all my relatives and most of the congregation of our Temple got their schtick. When I found out it was all out of the Leo Rosten (and others) books, that the books described us in some respects, I was crushed. What a bunch of phonies! I bet they had plastic surgery and took speech lesson to make it look authentic, too. (Remember “The ren in Spen fells moistly on the plen!”)
        And when I realized that I had picked so much of it up, too… No it wasn’t good, and I wish you would stay away from the subject.

        Well, you know, we had a lot of relatives back in Europe. They got theirs for aping Leo Rosten, I’m sure. Nobody likes a phony.

      • Mooser
        June 22, 2016, 6:04 pm

        “That’s fair enough and you’re entitled to your opinions…”

        Those aren’t my opinions, dude. They are our traditions!
        You ask me, ‘how did this tradition get started?’ and I tell you ‘I don’t know’ But it’s a tradition!
        .
        Yes, there are a lot of sacrifices, (at three, I started Hebrew school. At ten, I learned a trade!) but I have the final word at home. And my wife will raise the family, and run the Home, so Mooser has time to read the Holy Books.

      • Mooser
        June 22, 2016, 7:02 pm

        Jewish religious law (halakha) and customs allows for the scenario that when couples can’t make a marriage work they should divorce. That’s often a much healthier option than forcing two people who can’t get along to live to gether when it’s not meant to be. It’s a a great analogy for the Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute

        Ah, I see, “the Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute” is like a marriage which isn’t working out.
        Well, I guess that tells us all we need to know about your views on marriage (wow!) and the “Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute”!!

        Oh BTW, just for grins, was it a long courtship? When did we propose? How was the ceremony? The wedding breakfast? How was the honeymoon? (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)
        Is the”Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab” marriage foundering for the same reasons yours did?
        Shall we all sing? Let’s, this song always makes me tear up:

        Sunrise, sunset,
        Sunrise, sunset,
        Swiftly flow the days…

      • eljay
        June 22, 2016, 7:35 pm

        || Mikhael: … but old-fashioned Jewish religious law (halakha) and customs allows for the scenario that when couples can’t make a marriage work they should divorce. That’s often a much healthier option than forcing two people who can’t get along to live togethe when it’s not meant to be. It’s a a great analogy for the Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute. ||

        A much better analogy than “husband and wife” for I-P is “serial rapist and victims”. But it’s awfully cute how you magically transform past and on-going Zio-supremacist terrorism, ethnic cleansing, oppression, occupation, colonization, religion-based supremacism and sundry (war) crimes into nothing more than a lovers’ quarrel.

      • Mooser
        June 22, 2016, 11:42 pm

        “on-going Zio-supremacist terrorism, ethnic cleansing, oppression, occupation, colonization, religion-based supremacism and sundry (war) crimes into nothing more than a lovers’ quarrel.”

        I don’t think “Mikhael” meant anything that trivial, “eljay”. He knows it is more complicated than that. He was comparing it to his own situation.
        I think “Mikhael” would say it was more like a guy who marries one woman, has children, and then goes out and gets another woman pregnant, and is then in a complicated situation, divorces the first, marries the second, and then, does it again. More complications. It’s complicated.
        So give him credit, that’s much more serious than a “lover’s quarrel” wouldn’t you say?

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2016, 12:37 am

        “Eljay” the more I think about it, “Mikhael” does have a point.

        Like in the analogy above, the court getting involved to protect the interests of children, or spouse. Determining limits and support amounts. So a stronger outside party has to impose a solution.
        Yes, he’s got a point. Well, if we leave out all the stuff about you know, consent in the first place, he’s got a point.

      • Mikhael
        June 23, 2016, 8:33 am

        Mooser June 22, 2016, 5:40 pm
        So, they weren’t going for polygamy, or bigamy? Had to make it serial monogamy?
        Mikheal, let’s bring this conversation back to where it started. I can’t deny you did your best, according to your lights, to raise the Jewish birth-rate. Good work. Happy now?

        Of course I am happy to be a father.

        And BTW, isn’t this just a bit one-sided? Wouldn’t it be a tad more convincing for your ex-wives and/or children to write in and praise your qualities as lover, husband and father?

        I don’t know why anyone would find that interesting.

        Should I be flattered that you find my very ordinary personal life so extraordinary?

      • Mikhael
        June 23, 2016, 9:01 am

        Mooser June 22, 2016, 7:02 pm

        Ah, I see, “the Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute” is like a marriage which isn’t working out.

        Insofar as a marriage that many marriages that don’t work out are that way because they have two very different people sharing a small space; yes.

        Well, I guess that tells us all we need to know about your views on marriage (wow!) and the “Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab dispute”!!

        Marriage works for some people but isn’t for everybody.

        Oh BTW, just for grins, was it a long courtship? When did we propose? How was the ceremony? The wedding breakfast? How was the honeymoon? (nudge-nudge, wink-wink)

        None of these things are interesting.

        Is the”Israeli Jewish /Palestinian Arab” marriage foundering for the same reasons yours did?

        See my first answer.

        rise, sunset, Sunrise, sunset, Swiftly flow the days

        I had to Google those lyrics and I had no idea it was from “Fiddler on the Roof” until just now, maybe I vaguely heard someone say it once and I didn’t get the reference. I just watched a YouTube clip of it for like 30 seconds and couldn’t take anymore. I grew up in New York and I’m living here again now, but I had no exposure to Broadway musicals and I was never interested in seeing the play or the movie. The whole concept of musicals is dumb anyway, people breaking out into song in the middle of everything. I’ve never understood why people like them.

      • Mikhael
        June 23, 2016, 9:25 am

        Mooser
        June 22, 2016, 11:42 pm
        He was comparing it to his own situation.
        I think “Mikhael” would say it was more like a guy who marries one woman, has children, and then goes out and gets another woman pregnant, and is then in a complicated situation, divorces the first, marries the second, and then, does it again. More complications. It’s complicated.

        I don’t know why you would assume my situation was anything like what you describe, or why you would imagine such a complicated scenario. Some guys hastily marry in their early 20s and then divorce after 2 years and have one child, then they remarry in their early 30s in Israel and have twin daughters, and then get divorced after 6 years, and then remarry a third time in their early 40s, to another divorced person with children from her first marriage and then realize that the third marriage was another mismatch and get divorced after 5 months . It can be pretty straightforward and not at all complicated.

        But my point still stands that two people shouldn’t be forced to stay in a marriage together. Of course, Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs are destined to be neighbors, but we don’t have to live in the same state. Many Palestinian Arabs openly fantasize about and wish for the day that Jews will pack up and leave their country en masse; that sentiment is echoed by many of the commenters on this site, but it won’t happen. Admittedly, a few extremists on the Israeli Jewish side hope that Palestinian Arabs will also leave, that also won’t happen, both people are fated to live in the region, just as some couples that should never have tried to live together sometimes have to live in the same town but we don’t need to live under one government in the same state.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 23, 2016, 10:08 am

        Some guys hastily marry in their early 20s and then divorce after 2 years and have one child, then they remarry in their early 30s in Israel and have twin daughters, and then get divorced after 6 years, and then remarry a third time in their early 40s, to another divorced person with children from her first marriage and then realize that the third marriage was another mismatch and get divorced after 5 months

        sunrise, sunset,
        Sunrise, sunset,
        Swiftly flow the days

      • echinococcus
        June 23, 2016, 1:41 pm

        Michael says:
        “Many Palestinian Arabs openly fantasize about and wish for the day that Jews will pack up and leave their country en masse; that sentiment is echoed by many of the commenters on this site, but it won’t happen.”

        As late as 1958, the nationalist French papers carried titles like this one:
        Many Algerian Arabs openly fantasize about and wish for the day that French Colonials will pack up and leave their country en masse; that sentiment is echoed by many of the commenters on this site, but it won’t happen.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2016, 11:32 pm

        “The whole concept of musicals is dumb anyway, people breaking out into song in the middle of everything. I’ve never understood why people like them.”

        Well, I feel a lot better now about all this. Obviously, you aren’t Jewish. You can forget that ruse. Goodbye.

      • Mooser
        June 23, 2016, 11:49 pm

        “None of these things are interesting.”

        Deadly dull, aren’t they? Yeah, they all have to do with consent partnership, and oh yeah, love.

        And love, my friend, is a many splintered thing. A trip to the moon, on gossamer (gossamer would be wasted on you!) wings, or one of those bells which now and then rings. So keep your eye on spring. Run, when church bells ring. It could happen to you!

      • Mikhael
        June 24, 2016, 4:58 am

        Mooser June 23, 2016, 11:32 pm

        Well, I feel a lot better now about all this. Obviously, you aren’t Jewish. You can forget that ruse. Goodbye.

        As we Jews say in our language, “al ta’am ve al re’ah ein al ma le’hitvake’ah. I gather that secular Ashkenazi American Jews of a certain age were raised on musical theater, but (1) I’m a couple of generations younger than you and (2) although I was raised mostly in NY, I spent most of my formative years in an ultra-Orthodox enclave.

        I am sure if you go to Boro Park (where I spent a good chunk of my formative years) the vast majority of haredi Jews don’t know about musicals and would likely never go to one as it’s considered immodest as they feature “kol isha”. My late father was Sefaradi and had become very Orthodox not long after I was born (you know,a a hozer bi’teshuva) and despite his doctoral degrees in physics he eventually became a black-hatted haredi Jew and we settled first among the Syrian Jews in Gravesend and later among the Ashkenazi hassidim and mitnagedim of Boro Park in the 1970s/1980s, so I didn’t grow up in the kind of milieu that adored musicals. He was not so Orthodox as to avoid listening to recorded female singing, (“kol isha”) and I remember he would sometimes play records in the privacy of the house, of the great Israeli female vocalists Shoshana Damari and Margalit Tsanani (“Kalaniot” — great song), but Broadway was simply out of the question in our family, besides the taint of secular immodesty that violated the “frum” community’s norms it was waaaay too expensive for a family of 8. Like I said, I may have started to watch some old 1950s musical on TV once, but it made absolutely no sense that the characters kept on breaking out in song and dance in the middle of everything. People pay to see this?

      • Mikhael
        June 24, 2016, 5:40 am

        Mooser June 22, 2016, 6:04 pm
        “That’s fair enough and you’re entitled to your opinions…”

        Those aren’t my opinions, dude. They are our traditions!
        You ask me, ‘how did this tradition get started?’ and I tell you ‘I don’t know’ But it’s a tradition!

        You are entitled to your opinion and to idolize your parents’ marriage, but it is merely your opinion, not a fact, that divorce is completely anathema to and censured among traditional Jews. Otherwise there would not be a whole masekhet of the Gemara (Gittin) dealing with this subject.

      • Mikhael
        June 24, 2016, 5:57 am

        echinococcus June 23, 2016,

        As late as 1958, the nationalist French papers carried titles like this one:
        Many Algerian Arabs openly fantasize about and wish for the day that French Colonials will pack up and leave their country en masse; that sentiment is echoed by many of the commenters on this site, but it won’t happen.

        Unlike Israel’s Jews, the French pied noir colons could not claim unbroken millennial roots in Algeria and were sent there by and for a foreign state. On my father’s maternal side, my Jewish ancestors were living in Eres Yisrae’l (in Northern Galilee) by the mid 1500s, so my father traced longer unbroken roots in the country than many Arabs who only arrived in later centuries and now claim to be “indigenous” Palestinians (I was the first in my paternal grandmother’s family to be born outside the Land of Israel in approximately 500 years). Israel is a nation of 6 million+ Hebrew-speaking Jews, most native-born. Not long ago, I saw someone in an exchange with you realistically (albeit ruefully, he said it like it was a bad thing) point out the fact that a population that large will not be dislodged from its country, and you scolded him for being too pessimistic. So you’re actually on record here as openly relishing the fantasy of ethnic cleansing and uprooting an entire people, language and culture from its native soil, instead of what’s actually possible for the Palestinian Arabs whose cause you claim to support, which is a 2-state solution for the two national groups living in part of the former British Mandate of Palestine west of the Jordan River.

      • Shmuel
        June 24, 2016, 6:07 am

        As we Jews say in our language, “al ta’am ve al re’ah ein al ma le’hitvake’ah

        Good thing Shlonsky decided to translate that expression for us (from Russian? Latin?). See A. Even-Shoshan, Ha-milon he-hadash; and Y. Kna’ani, Milon hidushei Shlonsky.

        As some of us say in one of our languages, אין חדש תחת השמש (there is nothing new under the sun). I wonder whether the author of Kohelet made that up all by himself, or just did a Shlonsky and translated it from Egyptian or Akkadian.

      • Mikhael
        June 24, 2016, 8:21 am

        Shmuel June 24, 2016, 6:07 am
        As we Jews say in our language, “al ta’am ve al re’ah ein al ma le’hitvake’ah

        Good thing Shlonsky decided to translate that expression for us (from Russian? Latin?). See A. Even-Shoshan, Ha-milon he-hadash; and Y. Kna’ani, Milon hidushei Shlonsky

        “à chacun son goût”

        As some of us say in one of our languages, אין חדש תחת השמש (there is nothing new under the sun).

        Vernaculars like Yiddish, Ladino, Italkit, Yevanic or Juhoro-Tat can each be properly described as “one of our languages” but only Hebrew belongs to all the Jews.

      • echinococcus
        June 24, 2016, 10:57 am

        That Michael guy seems to be the worst thread-wrecker around. He’s got propaganda training, unlike hophmi.

        At any rate, “unbroken millennial roots” my axe. He himself may be a Jewish Palestinian, and we know there were some 5% or so such Palestinians at the time of the Zionist invasion with hostile intent. So what? What has that got with people from Minsk, Brooklyn or Mars with no personal relationship to the place and whose illegal immigration with hostile intent was roundly rejected by the owners of the sovereignty (among whom that Michael guy may also be, or not)?

        What makes me say that all Zionists are necessarily insane or knowingly outside human society is this unquestioned assumption of a “we” (not based, by the way, on personal religion or culture or so-called ethnicity) to apply to what is individually determined.

        Anyway, the sending back of illegals (who by the way have passports and home countries, in addition to a US guarantee), is not called “ethnic cleansing”. It’s been done, not only in Algeria, but post-WWII to the German settlers under Nazism, different other provisional populations –in fact it’s being contemplated by a possible future president of the US against defenseless immigrants who never even dreamed of subverting the sovereignty of the US.

        If Michael has Palestinian status as he says, he is not involved in any way. It’s hard to understand why he would try to help the genocidal invaders of his own country by inventing some collective ownership of the sovereignty for undesirable aliens. Worst thing, he is unaware enough to pretend that a language invented for the invasion and a barbarian invader culture are legitimate and protected.

      • Mooser
        June 24, 2016, 3:54 pm

        “I am sure if you go to Boro Park (where I spent a good chunk of my formative years) the vast majority of haredi Jews don’t know about musicals and would likely never go to one”

        True enough. I think it’s a shame, but all the haredi care about is that twangy surf music, old “Beach Boys”, and “Jan and Dean” numbers. Ehh, it’s better than that “punk rap” music the kids assault the eardrums with these days.

        “Like I said, I may have started to watch some old 1950s musical on TV once, but it made absolutely no sense that the characters kept on breaking out in song and dance in the middle of everything. People pay to see this?”

        I know. We just do it ourselves, at home, to the best of our ability. Without a song, (or so I have been informed by a Jewish man,) the day would never end. Nor could we face the music and dance, on a crowded floor, or the ceiling.

      • Mooser
        June 24, 2016, 4:26 pm

        “That Michael guy seems to be the worst thread-wrecker around. He’s got propaganda training, unlike hophmi.”

        Yup, he did a tremendous amount for Zionism, and I must add, certain varieties of Jewish upbringing and experience, as related to marriage and family life. Just made it all shine like gold.
        And yeah, as the thread unfolds, it does seem a lot like watching a train wreck. Until it reaches the penultimate point and he overplays his hand by dissing musicals. Busted! So busted.

      • Mooser
        June 24, 2016, 4:32 pm

        ” but it made absolutely no sense that the characters kept on breaking out in song and dance in the middle of everything. People pay to see this?”

        Maybe if there were knives flashing in the dance, and pictures of babies, it’d be more exciting. I mean, the music and dance should move the plot along, as they do in my new musical, “Vitriol and Skunkwater”

      • Mooser
        June 24, 2016, 11:20 pm

        “You are entitled to your opinion and to idolize your parents’ marriage”

        Look Casa Nebbish, I didn’t say “idolize”, I said “idealized”! i-d-e-a-l-i-z-e-d. Completely different thing.
        And I always listened to the Cantor!

        Another bride,
        Another June…

      • Mikhael
        June 28, 2016, 11:54 pm

        echinoccus June 24, 2016, 10:57 am

        At any rate, “unbroken millennial roots” my axe. He himself may be a Jewish Palestinian,

        How could I be a “Jewish Palestinian” (sic). ” Jewish Palestinians only existed between 1925 and 1948, from the time the British started issuing Palestinian citizenship papers to residents of their defunct Mandate (whether or not they were born there) until the termination of the Mandate. My paternal grandparents, who were born in Jerusalem at the turn of the 20th century were Ottoman citizens and became Palestinian citizens in 1925, my late father, who was born in 1932 ) was born as a Palestinian citizen (along with some of his siblings, my aunts and uncles) because he were born under the Mandate; all of his family became Israeli citizens in 1948 and permannently relinquished this “Palestinian” status. I was born in the USA in 1970 to Israeli citizen parents, thus acquring dual citizenship at birth. I could never be a Palestinian. That’s just ludicrous.

        we know there were some 5% or so such Palestinians at the time of the Zionist invasion with hostile intent

        There has been constant Jewish migration and return into Eres Yisrae’el for millenia, all of which by definition and default was Zionist. When my Sephardic ancestors arrived in Galillee in the 16th century they were Zionists, although the term hadn’t yet been coined. Their descendants were never “Palestinians” though until the British briefly imposed that status on them, along with hjeir non-Jewish neighbors.
        At any rate, in the 1880s, at the start of the secular political Zionist movement (as opposed to the regular Zionist impulse which is embedded in and inseparable from Judaism in its religious form) in the assortment of Turkish provinces later to be renamed “Palestine” by the British, Jews constitued about 8% (not 5% ) of the population. None of them were “Palestinians,” because the concept of being “Palestinian” whether one was Jewish nor Arab, had not yet been invented. Some (like my paternal ancestors) were Ottoman citizens and had been living in the Ottoman Empire for many centuries — others were citizens of various European countries and had also been living in Jerusalm and the other three “holy” cities to Judaism for centuries.

        So what? What has that got with people from Minsk, Brooklyn or Mars with no personal relationship to the place

        Every Jew has a personal relationship with Eres Yisra’el. Even people like Mooser and Phillip Weiss. Look how obssessed they are with it.

        And, unless we are discussing very recent convets, every Jew is literallydescended from Jews who lived in the country. It’s not at all similar to the French colons in Algeria who were implanted by a foreign state as a vanguard to keep the territory for and on behalf of that state.

        and whose illegal immigration with hostile intent was roundly rejected by the owners of the sovereignty (among whom that Michael guy may also be, or not)?

        The ancestors of the Arabs who now assert that they are a Palestinian nation at the time were not even claiming the “Palestine”on behalf of any Palestinian nation at the time. Rather, they demanded that it be made part of a larger, Arab unitary state and those with nationalaspirations shared that goal with Arabs from inside and outside of what was then Mandatory Palestine. Obviously, by the time of the Israeli independence, a large proportion of the population of what was then Mandatory Palestine had a right to seek self-determination in their own state; and they achieved that goal.

        Anyway, the sending back of illegals (who by the way have passports and home countries, in addition to a US guarantee), is not called “ethnic cleansing”.

        7 million Israeli citizens, 6 million plus of whom are Jewish and most of whom only hold Israeli citizenship, will not relinquish their homes just because a bigot like you deems them illegal.

        in fact it’s being contemplated by a possible future president of the US against defenseless immigrants who never even dreamed of subverting the sovereignty of the US.

        If Michael has Palestinian status as he says, he is not involved in any way. It’s hard to understand why he would try to help the genocidal invaders of his own country by inventing some collective ownership of the sovereignty for undesirable aliens.

        Again, I was born in 1970, 22 years after the dissolution of the colonial entity formerly known as “Palestine” and after my indigenous-born and bred Jewish family joyously exchanged their British “Palestinian” documents for Israeli status. Native-born Jews in Ottoman Galilee (Safad) whose families had lived in the region for centuries were instrumental in founding the Jewish village of Rosh Pina in the 1880s, joining more recent Jewish arrivals from Romania. Among the founding families of Tel Aviv were Jews who had lived in neighboring Jaffa for generations, or were Mizrahim who had relocated from other places in the region like Beirut. They hardly saw themselves as “Palestinians” or “Arabs” but they did recognize the newer Ashkenazi arrivals as their kin and countrymen.

        Worst thing, he is unaware enough to pretend that a language invented for the invasion and a barbarian invader culture are legitimate and protected

        I’m very aware that Jews preserved and nurtured their national language for centuries in the Land of Israel and outside of it and that Jews continued to write works of poetry and prose, philosophical and scientific works, fiction and non-fiction, in Hebrew way before the spoken Hebrew revival in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. I’m also aware that Hebrew functioned as a market lingua franca amoing the Jews of Jerusalem for decades before Elizezer Ben Yehuda spearheaxded the vernacular renaissance. I’m aware that Hebrew is the native or near-native language of about 6 million Israeli Jews who were born in Israel or raised in Israeli households outsoide Israel, as well as a milliion or more Jews around the world who are more or less fluent in Hebrew as beneficiaries of excellent, Israel-oriented Jewish day schools in the Diaspora that teach them Hebrew from an early age in the USA, France, Mexico, Argentina and Australia. I’m also aware of more than a million Arab citizens (to be clear, when one refers to “Arabs” one always means non-Jews) in Israel who speak fluent Hebrew; some of them read, write and speak Hebrew better than Arabic.I’m also aware that about 6,000 original Hebrew books are published per year, this per capita output is one of the highest in the world (although not as impressive as Icelandic which has a much smaller base of native speakers and also publishes an astonishing number of books in its own language for such a small country). Anyone who thinks the Israeli-Jewish population and the Hebrew language will be eradicated is a genocidal fantacist. Your rhetoric is reminiscent of WW2-era propaganda promoting the idea that after the war the only place Japanese will be spoken will be in hell.

      • Mikhael
        June 29, 2016, 12:09 am

        Mooser June 24, 2016, 11:20 pm

        “You are entitled to your opinion and to idolize your parents’ marriage”

        Look Casa Nebbish, I didn’t say “idolize”, I said “idealized”! i-d-e-a-l-i-z-e-d. Completely different thing.

        Never claimed to be a Casa Nova. Being married three times hardly would qualify me as one. As for a “Nebish,” isn’t a “nebbish” someone down on his luck and timid? I don’t know why you would assume such a thing aboout someone you don’t know.

        It’s also bad form to make a big deal about minor typos. Typing fast can lead one to misspell. I actually noticed my error but it was too late to edit it. If I wanted to nitpick, I could make an issue about your puttting a comma before the open parenthesis.

      • Mikhael
        June 29, 2016, 12:20 am

        Mooser June 24, 2016, 11:20 pm

        And I always listened to the Cantor!

        I got about 10 seconds into the link. Not my thing. Al ta’am ve al re’akh…

        (I’ll admit it’s better than the frum music that passes for Jewish music in the haredi sector. (E.g., Mordechai BenDavid or Avraham Fried) — the haredi equivalent of gospel music — that assaulted my eardrums in Boro Park and at countless frun Jewish weddings when I was growing up. I prefer the punk rap or the classic rock. If I’m listening to Jewish music, Israeli rock and pop in Hebrew is where it’s at — whether 1960s/1970s classics from Arik Einstein, Shalom Hanokh or Shlomo Artzi, or the yrically and lingusitically inventive poetry of Meir Ariel, the crazy electronic grooves of Berry Sakharov or more recent bands that draw on Mizrahi sounds like Teapacks or Ha Dag Nahash. I think Jews will be listening to the music I mentioned for much longer than Eddie Cantor.

      • Mikhael
        June 29, 2016, 12:23 am

        Mooser June 24, 2016, 4:32 pm

        Maybe if there were knives flashing in the dance, and pictures of babies, it’d be more exciting. I mean, the music and dance should move the plot along, as they do in my new musical, “Vitriol and Skunkwater”

        Hamas has produced a lot of videos like that already, some of them in bad Hebrew.

      • Mikhael
        June 29, 2016, 12:36 am

        Mooser June 24, 2016, 4:26 pm

        Yup, he did a tremendous amount for Zionism,

        My most important contribution to Zionism is fathering two Israeli daughters (who I support from afar, along with their American-born and raised half-sister) who in almost all likelihood will stay and live in their native country.

        and I must add, certain varieties of Jewish upbringing and experience, as related to marriage and family life

        My marriages and my family life have all been unremarkable, although I have mentioned them in passing. Marriage and being part of a couple isn’t for everyone, some of us try it a few times before we learn that lesson. What is remarkable is that you think that having been married and divorced more than once and honorably fulfilling parental responsibilities is something worthy of censure.

        And yeah, as the thread unfolds, it does seem a lot like watching a train wreck. Until it reaches the penultimate point and he overplays his hand by dissing musicals. Busted! So busted.

        Musicals suck. Some of the songs in them might be cute or memorable, but the whole concept of watching a drama and then having somneone sing in the middle is just dumb. This applies to Hebrew-language musicals as well, of which there are a few. (“Kazablan,” “Salah,” and “I Like Mike” — although I like the title of the latter.)

      • RoHa
        June 29, 2016, 6:41 am

        “When my Sephardic ancestors arrived in Galillee in the 16th century they were Zionists, although the term hadn’t yet been coined. ”

        Did they intend to create a Jewish State for the benefit of Jews only? If not, they don’t count as Zionists in the modern sense.

        “Every Jew has a personal relationship with Eres Yisra’el.”

        Every Welsh Methodist has a personal relationship with the Holy Land. It is the place where the founder of their religion lived, taught, died, was resurrected, and from where he ascended to heaven. I look forward to the day when yr hen iaith fy nhadau is the national language from Galilee to Sinai.

        “And, unless we are discussing very recent convets, every Jew is literallydescended from Jews who lived in the country.”

        And they’ve got family trees to prove it. But then, lots of Americans have family trees that prove they are literally descended from Englishmen, and yet this gives them no rights to England at all.

        “The ancestors of the Arabs who now assert that they are a Palestinian nation at the time were not even claiming the “Palestine”on behalf of any Palestinian nation at the time. Rather, they demanded that it be made part of a larger, Arab unitary state and those with national aspirations shared that goal with Arabs from inside and outside of what was then Mandatory Palestine. ”

        So what? They were the natives. If anyone had the right decide for Palestine, they did.

        “Obviously, by the time of the Israeli independence, a large proportion of the population of what was then Mandatory Palestine had a right to seek self-determination in their own state”

        No they didn’t. If the archives of past comments were still open you would see that. Suffice it here to say that a segment of a population in an area does not have such a right when that involves denying the rights of the rest of the population of the area.

      • Mooser
        June 29, 2016, 3:09 pm

        “Mikhael” I wanted to thank you for reliving me of a burden. I can’t believe all the weight I was carrying, and all the false Ideas I had about Jewish marriage, monogamy, what I owe my family, what I owe myself.
        It’s probably because I was brought up Reform I got these crazy ideas.

        You know what makes me feel so foolish. I used to look at the frummers in my family and think they had it tougher than me when it came to marriage! If only I had known what I was entitled to get. Oh well, nobody’s fault but mine.

      • Mooser
        June 29, 2016, 4:11 pm

        ” I think Jews will be listening to the music I mentioned for much longer than Eddie Cantor.”

        Well, I agree, I doubt Eddie Cantor listened to much music after he passed away.

        But “Mikhael’s Complaint” is a classic.

      • Mikhael
        June 29, 2016, 11:32 pm

        RoHa June 29, 2016, 6:41 am
        “When my Sephardic ancestors arrived in Galilee in the 16th century they were Zionists, although the term hadn’t yet been coined. ”

        Did they intend to create a Jewish State for the benefit of Jews only? If not, they don’t count as Zionists in the modern sense

        You’ve got it backwards. Zionism in the modern sense was the national movement to create a liberal, democratic and secular nation-state for the Jewish People with guaranteed and equal civil rights for all citizens, with no distinction made between Jewish citizens and those who belong to to non-Jewish minority nationalities, as explicitly set forth in the Israeli Declaration of Independence and implied in the Basic Law of Israel, Human Dignity and Liberty. Non-Jewish citizens of Israel have the same rights to the franchise, assembly, speech, and to religion (or no religion) as Jewish citizens of Israel. My paternal ancestors were Zionists living in Safed 400 years ago in the old-fashioned sense, not the newfangled sense; they believed they were fulfilling a religious duty when they migrated to their ancestral homeland and settled in Ottoman Galilee, a backwater province of the Ottoman Empire, and later Jerusalem (after the Safed earthquake in the 19th century). After fleeing the ravages of the Alhambra Decree and the Inquisition in Spain and wandering across the Meditteranean basin, they settled in the Jewish city of mystics, Safed, in Upper Galilee. They expected and hoped for an imminent arrival of a Messiah hastened through Kabbalistic practices and believed that this Messiah would restore Divine Temple worship and institute a renewed Jewish kingdom where non-Jews would at best, be relegated to the status of “ger toshab” who would have to observe the 7 Noahide Laws if they were to stay. They did not imagine the Jewish state that is a vibrant, multi-party secular parliamentary democracy that is the reality of Israel today, and which you characterize as “for the benefit of Jews only”. I’ll grant that there is a backwards and growing fundamentalist element in Israeli society that wants to rebuild the 3rd Temple and abolish democratic rights, but that’s a rebellion against and deviation from Zionism in the modern sense.

        “Every Jew has a personal relationship with Eres Yisra’el.”

        Every Welsh Methodist has a personal relationship with the Holy Land. It is the place where the founder of their religion lived, taught, died, was resurrected, and from where he ascended to heaven.

        The Celtic-speaking people of Cymru whose ancestors adopted the Jesuscult because its alleged founder supposedly was a renegade Jew who lived in Eres Yisra’el, the ancestral homeland of the Jewish nation, do not have a personal relationship with our country in the same way that Jews who trace their ancestry there do. The Welsh have their own country; we Jews have our country. And it’s not in Wales or New South Wales.

        And they’ve got family trees to prove it. But then, lots of Americans have family trees that prove they are literally descended from Englishmen, and yet this gives them no rights to England at all.

        England was a sovereign nation that has existed for centuries, on its own and as part of the UK and (for the moment) as part of Europe and as an independent and sovereign nation had the right to decide who was entitled to to move there (as a matter of fact, the UK does issue ancestry visas to people of British descent, although it doesn’t grant full citizenship to everyone meeting such criteria). Other countries, like Germany, Greece and Armenia do in fact grant citizenship to people of German, Greek and Armenian descent, whether or not they can prove that their ancestors were ever citizens of the modern-day states of Bundesrepublik Deutschland, the Ellīnikī́ Dīmokratía, or the Hayastani Hanrapetut’yun. Israel is fully within its legal and especially moral rights to grant citizenship to any Jew and will do so in the future. “Palestine” never, ever existed as an independent and sovereign nation-state in the past. (Of course this doesn’t mean that Arabs who have recently adopted a “Palestinian” national identity are not entitled to seek national self-determination in a state framework, but that right did not then nor does it now include the right to deny the right of political self-determination to the Jews of Eres Yisra’el.) When and if the Arabs who have begun to claim a Palestinian national identity ever establish a functioning and independent sovereign state in part of the disputed territories that they claim, then that state may award Palestinian citizenship and residency to whomsoever it pleases, including people who claim to be descended from the Palestinian Diaspora.

        The ancestors of the Arabs who now assert that they are a Palestinian nation at the time were not even claiming the “Palestine”on behalf of any Palestinian nation at the time. Rather, they demanded that it be made part of a larger, Arab unitary state and those with national aspirations shared that goal with Arabs from inside and outside of what was then Mandatory Palestine

        So what? They were the natives. If anyone had the right decide for Palestine, they did.

        Many of these Arabs were natives, many others were not. Some of them were immigrants (or children or grandchildren of immigrants) from other parts of the former Ottoman Empire (or even farther afield), who had migrated into what became the British Mandate of Palestine in preceding centuries. Some came as recently as the 1920s and 1930s from French Mandate Syria and Lebanon and even present-day Nigeria and Chad. Many Jews (like my paternal ancestors) were also natives of “Palestine” (well, my Jerusalem-born father was a native of Palestine, his parents, like him, were also born in Jerusalem, yet they were not natives of Palestine, as the concept of Palestine was yet to be created as it is now understood, rather they were natives of the Mutasarrifate of Jerusalem which was a separate administrative district in the Ottoman Empire). Whether the native Jews could trace constant residence in what became the British Mandate of Palestine in 1920 going back many generations and several centuries, like my paternal grandmother’s family, or whether they were more recent arrivals, they had a say in determining the character of the country in 1947-1948. The erstwhile Palestinian Jews (who would soon gratefully relinquish the Palestinian status imposed on them by the British) circa 1947-48 who lived in the soon-to-be defunct Mandatory Palestine, whether they were native-born, or whether they were immigrants or the children or grandchildren of immigrants, had a say just as much as the Palestinian Arabs had a say. This right to decide the future of the country in 1947-48 was not an exclusively Arab right then nor is it now.

        Obviously, by the time of the Israeli independence, a large proportion of the population of what was then Mandatory Palestine had a right to seek self-determination in their own state

        No they didn’t. If the archives of past comments were still open you would see that. Suffice it here to say that a segment of a population in an area does not have such a right when that involves denying the rights of the rest of the population of the area

        What right did the Palestinian Jews (who were soon to become Israeli Jews) of November 1947 , who lived in the incipient Jewish state seek to deny to the Palestinian Arabs when they accepted the UN partition plan, with its provisions of free movement of peoples, trade, economic union seek to deny to the Palestinian Arabs? The right to a Jew-free “Palestine”?

      • Mikhael
        June 30, 2016, 1:22 am

        Mooser June 29, 2016, 3:09 pm
        “Mikhael” I wanted to thank you for reliving me of a burden. I can’t believe all the weight I was carrying, and all the false Ideas I had about Jewish marriage, monogamy, what I owe my family, what I owe myself.
        It’s probably because I was brought up Reform I got these crazy ideas.

        I don’t know why you would have the notion that divorce is considered illicit in Judaism, it might be pure ignorance, it might be because you were brought up Reform (often, but not always, ignorance of Judaism goes hand in hand with a Reform Jewish upbringing). I think it’s likely pure ignorance though, because divorce is common among Reform Jews although they often don’t bother with a “Get” and a Beit Din. The traditional Jewish approach towards divorce is that dissolving a marriage should not be entered into lightly and parental and support responsibilities, agreed to in arbitration, must be met in the event of a dissolution of a marriage, but couples should be allowed to divorce if they can’t live in harmony as a family unit. Unlike the Roman Catholics, Jews definitely don’t condemn divorce as illicit or immoral. Your obsession with my (admittedly) unsuccessful attempts at married life (hey, I gave it a shot — marriage ain’t for everybody — which I candidly admit to) is tiresome as well as bizarre; there is no shamein having been married more than once from either a religious Jewish perspective (and I am not a religious Jew) or a modern, secular perspective.

        So yes, your ideas about the Jewish attitude towards divorce are not correct.

      • Mooser
        June 30, 2016, 4:22 pm

        “Your obsession with my (admittedly) unsuccessful attempts at married life”

        Terrible. I must be some kind of a sick person. This entire conversation has been a completely unwarranted intrusion, an invasion of your marital privacy.

      • RoHa
        July 5, 2016, 9:45 pm

        It seems your Sephardic ancestors shared some of the nastier ideas of modern Zionists, but, since they wanted Jewish supremacy by Messiah rather than by force, they are not quite as reprehensible.

        “Zionism in the modern sense was the national movement to create a liberal, democratic and secular nation-state for the Jewish People with guaranteed and equal civil rights for all citizens, with no distinction made between Jewish citizens and those who belong to to non-Jewish minority nationalities,”

        If no distinction is made between Jews and non-Jews, in what sense would it be a state for the Jewish People? Perhaps only in the sense that it envisaged non-Jews as minorities. And how was that to be arranged?

        (Of course, we know that Israel is not such a state.)

        “The Celtic-speaking people of Cymru … do not have a personal relationship with our country in the same way that Jews who trace their ancestry there do.”

        Since the relationship between European Jews and Palestine is simply one of sentiment, there isn’t all that much difference between Christians and Jews in that regard.

        But let us assume that the ancestors of European Jews were, in fact, the ancient Palestinian Jews. So what? It seems that the ancestors of the Welsh lived in central Europe, and the ancestors of all human beings live somewhere in Africa. (Kenya, perhaps.) That does not in any way give Welshmen the moral right to move in to the Czech Republic, or the rest of us the moral right to take over Kenya.

        ““Palestine” never, ever existed as an independent and sovereign nation-state in the past.”
        I keep seeing this from Zionists, but they never explain why it is important. The same goes for the discussions of Palestinian national identity.

        “What right did the Palestinian Jews (who were soon to become Israeli Jews) of November 1947 , who lived in the incipient Jewish state seek to deny to the Palestinian Arabs …”

        The right to an undivided Palestine. Establishing a state in a territory seriously affects the lives of all the people living in that territory. There is no right for a portion of the population to ignore the clear wishes of the majority of the people they live among and establish a state for their own benefit.

        It is even worse when they establish that state by force, and follow it up with ethnic cleansing and oppression.

      • RoHa
        July 5, 2016, 9:46 pm

        “The Welsh have their own country; we Jews have our country. And it’s not in Wales or New South Wales.”

        So you really are saying that Jews are not real Australians? There used to be a pejorative word applied to that idea.

        But I find this concept peculiar in other ways. It suggests that people (or at least Jews and the Welsh) are restricted by their ancestry, and that their “own country” is the country of their ancestors.

        Here I must declare an interest. I, RoHa, do have some Welsh ancestors*. On that principle, then, Australia, the country in which I was brought up, in which I have my home, my family, my cat, and my citizenship, is not my country. I really belong in Ystradgynlais or Rhosllanerchrugog. Unless I decide on the country of my English ancestors.

        But my wife will have to go back to Kamakura, and my son and cat will face some tricky decisions. His ancestry is very mixed, and, while we do not know the details of hers, it is clear that, not being a marsupial, she does not belong here. (Neither do the dingoes.)

        This idea of the country of one’s ancestors being one’s own country is just ridiculous.

        (*I know that this admission will cause shock and consternation in the ranks. Annie will weep. Mooser will strike me off his Christmas card list. “I know we’re all God’s children”, he will say, shaking his head sadly, “but one must draw the line somewhere.” MHughes will lie low and say nothing, as befits someone with such a dodgy surname.)

      • Annie Robbins
        July 6, 2016, 2:03 am

        i’m not weeping!

        i agree This idea of the country of one’s ancestors being one’s own country is just ridiculous.

        i think especially if you have generation upon generation of ancestors who didn’t live there, it supersedes any this notion it’s one’s own country.

      • silamcuz
        July 6, 2016, 9:12 am

        “On that principle, then, Australia, the country in which I was brought up, in which I have my home, my family, my cat, and my citizenship, is not my country.”

        But Australia is not your country though. I wouldn’t say it belong to the aborigines, because they do not recognize the concept of private ownership of bits of the Earth, but it certainly does not and will never belong to you. You just happen to live in, by pure accident of birth, the landmass known as Australia.

      • RoHa
        July 6, 2016, 9:29 pm

        I’m not claiming private ownership of the entire country. That is not what “my country” means.

        If being born here* doesn’t make it “my country”, then an aborigine cannot say “it’s my county” simply on the grounds of being born here.

        What would make it “my country”?

        Let’s try “born here of ancestors who were born here.” That covers a lot of white, yellow, and brown people in Australia. If you want to restrict it to Aborigines, that won’t work.

        How about “born here of ancestors who weren’t immigrants”? But everyone’s ancestors were immigrants. The ancestors of the Aborigines were, it seems, the first immigrants.

        “Born of ancestors who were the first immigrants, when the territory really was terra nullius.”
        Anyone who has an Aboriginal ancestor can say “my country” but no-one else can.

        Now that principle could work for Australia. It could probably work for New Zealand, if anyone could be bothered. But for much of the world it is extraordinarily difficult to work out who got there first, and whether any descendants of those people are still there. The people living in those places would be in a dither of uncertainty. “Is this my country or not?” they would mutter.

        Or maybe not. They might just say “My home is here, my citizenship is here, it’s my country, and simalcuz is talking drivel, as usual.”

        (*Actually, although I grew up here,I wasn’t born here. Like roughly 20% of the population, including two recent PMs, I’m an immigrant. My cat was born here, though.)

      • silamcuz
        July 7, 2016, 7:53 am

        I’m not claiming private ownership of the entire country. That is not what “my country” means.

        Firstly, when I said the landmass called Australia does not belong to you, it would be more than obvious I didn’t mean it in literal terms. Unless you principly object to owning private property, and politically opposed to any form of government that view the country as a sovereign territory with violently enforced borders, you are complicit in the private ownership of the Australian landmass.

        The question of ancestry should not matter here, as all Australians, including aborigines are complicit in the unlawful occupation of the land that does not belong to them, through their allegiance to the Government of Australia. You may use platitudes such as “this is the home I choose for myself” or “this is where I was brought up”.

        But the reality is, Australia is being occupied by a violent military force that militantly guard its borders from Non-Australian citizens seeking to live on the landmass. You say you don’t own Australia, but the government representing you is sure acting like it owns it; jailing people who overstay their visas, deporting people it doesn’t like, detaining refugees in cruel and depressing offshore camps.

      • RoHa
        July 7, 2016, 11:00 pm

        simalcuz.

        Nothing you have said shows that I am not part of the country, and do not belong here.

      • silamcuz
        July 8, 2016, 3:19 am

        Nothing you have said shows that I am not part of the country, and do not belong here.

        That’s probably because I am saying completely different things. You being part of the country of Australia, which is a political establishment none different from Israel, means that you are complicit in the illegal occupation of the Australian landmass through violent means. You are an illegal occupier of a land that does not belong to you is what I am saying.

        You may not like it, just as many progressives in Israel loathe that they are part of a unlawful, violent and racist settler-colonial project, but you have to be accountable for your complicity as an Australian citizen in the continued appropriation of the land and all resources within it by a group of white Europeans originating from the UK.

        We often mock Israel for claiming God gave them the land as a basis of their nation-state, but how is it any more ridiculous than Australia’s government claim to the their territorial land?

      • Mikhael
        August 7, 2016, 2:48 am

        RoHa July 5, 2016, 9:45 pm

        It seems your Sephardic ancestors shared some of the nastier ideas of modern Zionists

        No. As I said, modern Zionists wanted to create a secular and modern Jewish nation-state, which they did, in the form of a liberal parliamentary democracy. with guaranteed equal civil rights for all citizens, whether of Jewish or non-Jewish nationality. That’s what they wanted and that’s what they created.

        Some religious fundamentalist extremist Jews in Israel today (a fringe of a fraction of a minority, but nevertheless growing) want to reestablish the kingdom of Judah and build the Third Temple ASAP, instead of merely praying for it (which is what all Orthodox Jews pray for and are supposed to believe in). People who hope to replace the modern secular democratic Jewish nation-state that is the reality of contemporary Israel oppose modern political Zionism and ofen explictly say so.

        but, since they wanted Jewish supremacy by Messiah rather than by force, they are not quite as reprehensible

        My Sefaradi-Jewish ancestors were pre-modern people with pre-modern religious ideas and had been expelled from what had seemed to be a once-welcoming sanctuary in the Iberian Peninsula in 1492. Having been disabused of the notion of multi-culti “convivencia in an alien land, they returned to their original ancestral homeland in Eres Yisra’elnd and believed in repairing a shattered world through prayer, study and Qabbalistic incantations and meditations and thought national redemption for the Jews and world redemption would come with the Jews’s restoration to their rightful place, with sacrifices on the Temple and the heavens would thus align and all the stars in the firmanent would be in their place too.

        If no distinction is made between Jews and non-Jews, in what sense would it be a state for the Jewish People? Perhaps only in the sense that it envisaged non-Jews as minorities. And how was that to be arranged?

        It was arranged by the Arab population of the defunct former British Mandate of Palestine rejecting the Partition Plan, which allocated to the Jewish state only areas in which Jews constituted a majority of the population. Had they accepted the Partition borders (as the Jews did) they they could have had a state containing an Arab majority and the Jews would have had a state containing a Jewish majority, with nobody being forced to leave their homes as a result of a disastrous war that resulted in many Arabs fleeing their homes in what became Israel and all of the Jewish population being expelled from what became the Jordanian-occupied “West bank” between 1948-1967.

        (Of course, we know that Israel is not such a state.)

        Unless you can cite one legal right that Jewish citizens of Israel have that non-Jewish citizens of Israel do not have, then we know that Israel is such a state.

        “The Celtic-speaking people of Cymru … do not have a personal relationship with our country in the same way that Jews who trace their ancestry there do.”

        Since the relationship between European Jews and Palestine is simply one of sentiment, there isn’t all that much difference between Christians and Jews in that regard.

        “Palestine” ended in 1948. But the Jews whose ancestors lived in Europe (who are dwindling in number) as well as the Jews from North Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia almost all have a direct national and ancestral connection to Eres Yisra’el (and to each other).

        But let us assume that the ancestors of European Jews were, in fact, the ancient Palestinian Jews.

        What’s an “ancient Palestinian Jew”? “Palestinian Jews” only existed between 1925 and 1948, because that’s the only time that an entity called “Palestine” existed that ever granted its Jewish residents any form of citizenship. (My late father, who held “Palestinian” citizenship at birth, died at the age of 80, but that’s not so ancient, is it? And he hadn’t been “Palestinian” for more than six decades at the time of his death, so even if he was ancient he hadn’t been Palestinian for a while.)
        But of course, notwithstanding the absurdity of discussing “ancient Palestinian Jews,” all members of historical Diaspora Jewish communities can trace their ancestry to ancient Judeans in Eres Yisra’el, whether we are discussing the Diaspora communities in Europe, the Middle East, North Africa or Central Asia — to name the major regions of the Jewish Diaspora that today’s Israeli Jews’ forefathers moved back to Israel from.

        So what? It seems that the ancestors of the Welsh lived in central Europe, and the ancestors of all human beings live somewhere in Africa. (Kenya, perhaps.) That does not in any way give Welshmen the moral right to move in to the Czech Republic, or the rest of us the moral right to take over Kenya.

        Archaelogical and anthropological evidence teaches us that ancient, prehistoric Celts lived in Central Europe, in the area where the Czech Republic is now, so therefore we may surmise that modern Celts (e.g., the Welsh, who have their own homeland in Wales) may be descended from related Celtic groups who lived in the present-day Czech Republic and migrated to Great Britain. This is not analogous to the Jewish People, a national group originating in Eres Yisra’el, which, in addition to maintaining and nurturing a cohesive national identity (revolving around a central tenet of regaining sovereignty over a lost homeland) for 2,000 years of Diaspora throughout the Levant, other parts of the Middle East, North Africa, Central Asia and Europe, also maintained a continuous physical presence in Eres Yisra’el throughout the 2000-year-period of loss of national sovereignty in its homeland accompanied by constant migrations and resettlement by Jews in the country well predating the modern political Zionist movement (e.g., my ancestors who were expelled form Spain who made their home in Galilee and later Jerusalem in the 1500s). Unlike the Jews, the ancient Celtic predecessorss of modern-day Welsh did not maintain a continuous cultural presence in the Central European heartland after the area was settled by Slavic-dialect and Germanic-diakect-speakers, and their Welsh descendants developed a new language and a new culture, founded new kingdoms in Britain and eventually accepted English suzerainty. They founded a new nation, Cymru and didn’t live in Diaspora. There is of ocurse a Welsh Diaspora of today — in Argentina, Australia, the USA that looks to Cymru as their national homeland — not the Czech Republic. Their Central European cradle (or was the Celtic Urheimat in modern-day Turkey? — I’m not sure) has nothing to do with Welsh national identity. Eres Yisra’el is of course central to Jewsish national identity.

        ““Palestine” never, ever existed as an independent and sovereign nation-state in the past.”
        I keep seeing this from Zionists, but they never explain why it is important. The same goes for the discussions of Palestinian national identity.

        The truth is important. And I folloewd up immediately by stating “. . . this doesn’t mean that Arabs who have recently adopted a “Palestinian” national identity are not entitled to seek national self-determination in a state framework,“ and it was in response to your casting doubt that Jews can’t prove any ancestral connection to Eres Yisrae’el and even if they did “lots of Americans have family trees that prove they are literally descended from Englishmen, and yet this gives them no rights to England at all” I accurately responded that this is an issue between Her Majesty’s Government and those Americans, just as this is an issue between the Israeli government and those members of the Jewish Diaspora who wish to take Israeli citizenship. It is Israeli policy now (and will remain so in the future) to grant citizenship to people from Diaspora communities who can demonstrate Jewish descent and Israel is within its full legal and especially moralrights to decide who it may grant citizenship to — just as HMG may or may not decide who it may grant British citizenship to, on the basis of ancestry or otherwise. Israel uses Jewish ancestry as a major deciding criterion for granting of citizenship, just as other states like Greece or Armenia consider ethnic Greek or Armenian ancestry to be relevant. When and if the first ever Palestinian Arab state comes into existence, then they will be within their full moral and legal rights to consider Palestinian Arab ancestry as a determinant for the awarding of Palestinian citizenship and will have the right to exclude people who they deem not to be “Palestinians” as citizens. It’s not my business and not yours.

        The right to an undivided Palestine.

        The former Mandate of Palestine had already been divided in 1921, when the British split off nearly three quarters of “Palestine” to create Transjordan.

        Establishing a state in a territory seriously affects the lives of all the people living in that territory. There is no right for a portion of the population to ignore the clear wishes of the majority of the people they live among and establish a state for their own benefit

        The principles of democracy and self-determination say otherwise. Many modern nation-states were established by minorities against the clear wishes of the majority of the population living in that territory.

        It is even worse when they establish that state by force

        There was an option for peaceful partition, rejected by the Arabs. Force was used by Arabs in an attempt to prevent the establishment of the Jewish state and was met with force by Jews.

        and follow it up with ethnic cleansing

        There was a clearly stated goal by Palestinian and non-Palestinian Arabs of ethnically cleansing the former British mandate of the erstwhile Palestinian Jews (who were officially Palestinian from 1925 to 1948, but who permanently gave up their Palestinian status in 1948). As Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League explicitly declared “I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Tartar massacre or the Crusader wars . . . the number of volunteers from outside Palestine will be larger than Palestine’s Arab population, for I know that volunteers will be arriving to us from [as far as] India, Afghanistan, and China to win the honor of martyrdom for the sake of Palestine … You might be surprised to learn that hundreds of Englishmen expressed their wish to volunteer in the Arab armies to fight the Jews.
        There was every indication that this was a sincere threat and in fact unlike the part of the former British mandate of Palestine that became Israel and which retained a large population of Arabs who became Israeli citizens with all the rights accruing to Israeli citizenship as Israeli Jews have, all of the territories of the former British Mandate of Palestine that fell to Arab forces after the Declaration of Israeli Independence were completely ethnically cleansed of Jews. My father’s uncle, aunts and cousins were expelled from the ancient Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem by Transjordan’s Arab Legion with the clothes on their back — their property was looted by their former “fellow Palestinians” of Arab nationality.

      • Mikhael
        August 7, 2016, 2:50 am

        RoHa July 5, 2016, 9:46 pm
        “The Welsh have their own country; we Jews have our country. And it’s not in Wales or New South Wales.”
        So you really are saying that Jews are not real Australians? There used to be a pejorative word applied to that idea.

        Despite an adolescent 1980s obsession with Australian pop culture (Men at Work, “The Road Warrior” movies, INXS, Midnight Oil), which I’ve long since put behind me, I really don’t care about Australia and it doesn’t matter to me what a “real Australian” is. Who gives a fuck, it’s not relevant, I’m never going to go there and you can keep your nasty Vegemite. But although originally the real Australians are the Aboriginals who were nearly completely genocided in an actual Nakba, I suppose a “real Australian,” legally speaking, is anyone with Australian citizenship, whether such a person is am Aboriginal Australian, a Welsh-Australian, an English- Australian, a Greek-Australian, an Irish-Australian, a Maltese-Australian, a Palestinian-Australian or an Australian Jew. So the 100,000 or so Jews who have Australian citizenship are all “real Australians” although as Jews, Israel is their actual national homeland and they are all entitled legally and morally to Israeli citizenship (and the good news is that many of these “real Australians” who are Jews also actually also hold Israeli citizenship as well, just as many other “real Australians” also hold British citizenship, Irish citizenship, Greek citizenship or Maltese citizenship).

        But I find this concept peculiar in other ways. It suggests that people (or at least Jews and the Welsh) are restricted by their ancestry, and that their “own country” is the country of their ancestors.

        National identity doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive. Jews and Welsh, like many other peoples, have their own national and ethnic homelands — it doesn’t mean they can never feel at home outside of it and can’t contribute to other societies. However, Jewish history teaches us that the Jews who felt most at home outside of the Eres Yisra’el were frequently disillusioned.

        Here I must declare an interest. I, RoHa, do have some Welsh ancestors*. On that principle, then, Australia, the country in which I was brought up, in which I have my home, my family, my cat, and my citizenship, is not my country. I really belong in Ystradgynlais or Rhosllanerchrugog. Unless I decide on the country of my English ancestors…..This idea of the country of one’s ancestors being one’s own country is just ridiculous.

        That’s a decision to be made by you, the devolved Welsh Government and the British government.

        Fortunately for the Welsh, those who voluntarily emigrated from Cymru for far shores were not ghettoized, persecuted, massacred and expelled from realm to realm; which adverse situations helped maintaine Jewish national coheseiveness in exile from the homeland. But some Welsh did maintain a distinct Welsh culture in the Diaspora (notably in Patagonia, where there are Welsh-speaking communities that have existed for more than a century), and if they want to return to their ancestral Welsh homeland, it might be easier for them to go back — if that’s what they want.

        In the case of the Jews and Israel, it’s already a fait accompli. Very soon the majority of the world’s Jews will live in Israel and the Israeli government will continue to facilitate immigration of Jews from elsewhere, including Australia, to Israel. And there’s absolutely nothing you can do to change this.

      • Annie Robbins
        August 7, 2016, 4:43 am

        Jewish history teaches us that the Jews who felt most at home outside of the Eres Yisra’el were frequently disillusioned.

        that’s you american jews – frequently disillusioned –even if you’ve never been to israel! btw “Jewish history” doesn’t teach you that, people do. people who seek to brainwash you. the vast majority of jews throughout history never stepped one foot in palestine. so of course (overwhelmigly like most people) they felt most at home wherever they were raised and resided.

        the messaging here is that american jews who don’t choose (want) to move to israel are disillusioned

        uh huh

      • eljay
        August 7, 2016, 8:23 am

        || Mikhael: … So the 100,000 or so Jews who have Australian citizenship … ||

        Australians who have chosen to be Jewish.

        || … are all “real Australians” although as Jews, Israel is their actual national homeland … ||

        Except that it’s not. Israel is the actual national homeland of non-Jewish and Jewish Israelis – the citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from Partition-borders Israel.

        || … and they are all entitled legally and morally to Israeli citizenship … ||

        They should not be legally entitled to Israeli citizenship simply because they are Jewish. The only reason they are legally entitled to Israeli citizenship is because Israel – currently operating as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – grants it to them. There’s nothing moral about religion-based supremacism.

      • Raphael
        August 7, 2016, 1:08 pm

        No. As I said, modern Zionist

        Interesting, that you were able to go so back in history for your family. I was able to go back to around the 1850s for the Jewish side of my family.

        They came from the Talne area of Ukraine, and around Kovno Lithuania. It was a huge family… on one side… they had twelve brothers and sisters, on the other side around sixteen brothers or sisters. Most my ancestors were millionaires in the old country or they definitely were after they moved here. On the boat were so many relatives; other genealogical researchers said they never seen a family with so many relatives that large, on a boat, moving to the US.

      • Mooser
        August 7, 2016, 1:37 pm

        “Mikhael” that was all wonderful. We don’t get a signed and detailed confession like that very often.

        And it’s your second one, too!

        ROTFLMSJAO!!!

      • Mikhael
        August 7, 2016, 2:48 pm

        ejay August 7, 2016, 8:23 am

        || Mikhael: … So the 100,000 or so Jews who have Australian citizenship … ||

        Australians who have chosen to be Jewish

        “Australians who have chosen to be Jewish” refers to the handful of converts to Judaism in Australia with no known ethnic Jewish ancestry. I’m sure there are a few, maybe even numbering a few scores or even the low hundreds (probably most have chosen to be Jewish after pairing with a Jewish significant other), but the vast majority of Australia’s 100,000 or so Jews are not “Australians who have chosen to be Jewish” but Jews (or the descendants of Jews) who have chosen to be Australian. They are all entitled legally and morally to citizenship in Israel, their national homeland, and a large proportion of the approximately 100,000 Jews in Australia, who are descended from Jews who at one point chose to be Australian, have taken advantage of that right.

        || … are all “real Australians” although as Jews, Israel is their actual national homeland … ||

        Except that it’s not. Israel is the actual national homeland of non-Jewish and Jewish Israelis – the citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from Partition-borders Israel.

        Israel is the actual national homeland of Jews everywhere, in Sydney, in Toronto, in Gondar (Ethiopia) , in Casablanca and in Teheran and it will continue to grant Jews everywhere the right to gain Israeli citizenship and move to their national homeland. It is also the homeland of its non-Jewish citizens and its self-definition as a Jewish homeland and its granting of easy access to Israeli citizenship to members of Jewish Diaspora communities does not infringe upon the rights of non-Jewish citizens of Israel in any way, shape or form. If “immigrants to” Israel become citizens of Israel, whether said immigrants to Israel are foreign-born Jews who legally and morally obtain Israeli citizenship through Israel’s Law of Return or are foreign-born non-Jews who gain Israeli citizenship by other legal means, e.g., marriage to an Israeli citizen, whether said Israeli citizen is Jewish or non-Jewish, or through becoming naturalized as an Israeli citizen after legal residency and a naturalization process or because said non-Jewish immigrant is legally awarded Israeli citizenship by order of the Israeli Internal Affairs Ministry — perhaps because this individual possesses some desired skill or is deemed to have made a valuable contribution to Israeli society — then said non-Jewish immigrant who is an Israeli citizen can legitimately call Israel his or her homeland just as Jewish citizens of Israel can call Israel their homeland and just as many non-Israeli-citizen members of the Jewish Diaspora consider Israel to be their homeland and have the legal and moral right to take advantage of Israeli law in order to obtain Israeli citizenship. If by “immigrants to Israel” you are referring to the many illegal, non-Jewish immigrants to Israel, whether they have illegally infiltrated by crossing a border without authorization or overstayed a temporary workers’ or visitors’ visa, then certainly these “immigrants to” Israel are not citizens of Israel, are not entitled to become citizens of Israel, and cannot call Israel their homeland. In a magnaminous gesture, however, the government of Israel has regularized the status of some of their Israeli-born and raised children and granted them legal residency and the right to apply for Israeli citizenship. So some of the Israeli-born and raised children of illegal non-Jewish immigrants to Israel can become citizens and legitimately call Israel their homeland, just as Jews throughout the Diaspora are legally and morally entitled to do.

        As for “expats and refugees from” Israel, again the only operative and relevant question is whether these non-Jewish “expats from” Israel are Israeli citizens. If they are not citizens, then they have no rights of Israeli citizenship. Moreover, by definition, non-citizens cannot properly be considered expats. But certainly non-Jewish expats from Israel, presuming they hold Israeli citizneship, have the samed rights as Jewish expats from Israel who hold Israeli citizneship. a non-Jewish expat citizen of Israel living in Toronto has exactly the same rights as a Jewish expat citizen of Israel to go to the Israeli Consulate, pay the fee and have his or her picture taken for a renewed Israeli passport, and then to board a flight back to Israel and resume residence there,vote and pay income tax. If you are talking about a “refugee from ” Israel then presumably you are referring to those non-citizen Arabs or their descendants who rejected the possibility of accepting Israeli citizenship in 1948 and fled the country (unlike the 150,000 or so who stayed and who became Israeli citizens whose descendants now number approximately 2 million). These foreign non-residents of Israel and their descendants who you refer to as refugees are not and never were citizens of Israel and thus are not due all of the same rights that Israel confers to its citizens. Your offhand mention of “Partition Borders” has no relevance to the discussion as those borders became null and void after they were rejected by the leadership of the Arab population of the former British Mandate of Palestine and after Arabs states invaded Israel.

        They should not be legally entitled to Israeli citizenship simply because they are Jewish.

        But foreign-born members of Jewiosh Diaspora communities are legally entitled to Israeli citizenship simply because they are Jewish, they should be entitled to Israeli citizenship simply because they are Jewish, and they will be entitled to Israeli citizenship. A non-Jewish citizen of Canada who lives outside of Israel actually has no moral say in this matter, just as a non-ethnic Armenian citizen of Canada who lives outside of Armenia has no moral say in Armenia granting easy access to Armenian citizenship to members of Amenian Diaspora communities simply because they are of Armenian ethnic descent. Of course the particular non-Jewish citizen of Canada I am having this disucssion with is a moral hypocrite because he only seems to have a problem with Israel granting easy access to Israeli citizenship to members of the Jewish Diaspora and evidences no problem with countries like Armenia granting easy access to Armenian citizenship to members of its far-flung Diaspora communities — a policy which is as moral and just as Israel’s Law of Return. I’m not sure if Armenia will always grant Armenian citizenship ethynic Armenians living in the Armenian Diaspora, but I am certain that Israel will continue to grant Israeli citizneship to Jews in the Diaspora long after eljay and I are both dead. The good news, of course, is that the Jewish Diaspora will be considerably smaller as the vast majority of the world’s Jews will be living in Israel in the forthcoming decades.

        The only reason they are legally entitled to Israeli citizenship is because Israel – currently operating as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – grants it to them. There’s nothing moral about religion-based supremacism

        Jewishness is a national identity that is separate from religion. Israel is a state of the Jewish People, whether or not they believe in Judaism or any religion; therefore it is not a “religion-supremacist state”. A “religion-supremacist state” is your unclever neologism for a theocracy; Israel does not meet any of the definitional criteria for being a theocracy, as religious law is not the prime source of civil law and as freedom of religion (or non-religion) is guaranteed in theory and in practice. It is moral for Israel to grant easy access to Israeli citizenship to members of Jewish Diaspora communities abroad — Jews were denied sovereignty over their homeland for millenia and the history of the Jewish People in the Diaspora teaches us that Jews could be easily stripped of whatever protections and rights residence and citizenship they temporarily had in foreign non-Jewish countries. It’s the most moral and just thing in the world for there always to be one country that Jews will not be expelled from or lose their rights in simply for being Jews.

      • Mikhael
        August 7, 2016, 3:13 pm

        Annie Robbins August 7, 2016, 4:43 am

        that’s you american jews – frequently disillusioned –even if you’ve never been to israel!

        I’m first and foremost Israeli, I’m only “American” because of a quirk in the interpetation of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment — my Israeli citizen parents were students in Boston when I was born (my father was a post-doc fellow, my mom a grad student). My parents eventually became permanent residents but my father never became a US citizen and eventually returned to Israel after getting divorced. He forfeited his green card and later had to apply for a visa every time he visited the US to see his American-born grandchildren. So although I happen to have a US passport and was raised mostly in the US and reside here now (for the moment at least), being “American” is less important to me than my shoe size. As an American only by birth circumstance, I am a proud non-voter.

        btw “Jewish history” doesn’t teach you that, people do. people who seek to brainwash you.

        The history of the Jews in the Diaspora is replete with evidence of Jews being forced to leave countries in which they once thought they were at home.

        the vast majority of jews throughout history never stepped one foot in palestine.

        Well, “Palestine” is the name of a defunct British colonial entity that existed in the last century. Variants of the name , like the Roman province Syria Palestina or Byzantine provinces like Palestina Prima, Palestina Secundis or Palestina Tertia, or the Umayayyad military district of “Jund Filastin” referred to administrative sub-jurisdictions of foreign empires that also comprised much of present-day Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. By the time the Romans and their Buzaynite successors renamed the country “Palestine”, the Jewish Diaspora from Judea and Israel was well underway.

        the messaging here is that american jews who don’t choose (want) to move to israel are disillusioned

        uh huh

        It seems unlikely that American Jews, who thrive in a pluralistic and democratic society, will ever be dispossessed, expelled or massacred, although many American Jews are descended from Jews who once lived in places like Spain, Germany, Egypt, Poland, Iraq and Russia; countries where Jewish communities suffered such fates. However, those who don’t stay in tight-knit Orthodox Jewish enclaves are fated to disappear through intermarriage and assimilation (this is a natural phenomenon) — so the American Jewish community is about to shrink drastically. This will leave the Orthodox Jews in America, who marry among themselves and who will always maintain a strong identification with Israel. They will continue to send thier children to Israel to study and will be a source of immigration to Israel. Some non-Orthodox Jews in the US will become Orthodox and/or move to Israel; the others will vanish.

      • Mikhael
        August 7, 2016, 3:22 pm

        Mooser August 7, 2016, 1:37 pm

        “Mikhael” that was all wonderful. We don’t get a signed and detailed confession like that very often.

        Are you referring to me confessing my affinity for 1980s Aussie pop? Maybe I should be ashamed — but it’s less embarrassing than admitting to a predilection for show tunes.

      • RoHa
        August 8, 2016, 3:21 am

        It would help this discussion if you could tell us what “homeland” means, what conditions have to be fulfilled for Land X to be the homeland of Person Y, and what chain of moral reasoning gives Person Y a right to reside in his homeland.

        Then, perhaps I would be able to understand why Australia is not the homeland of Sir Isaac Isaacs.

        At the moment, it looks as though ancestry is the key element. But if the “out of Africa” theory is correct, that would mean that Kenya or some other part of Africa would be everyone’s homeland.

        “It’s the most moral and just thing in the world for there always to be one country that Jews will not be expelled from or lose their rights in simply for being Jews.”

        Not if that country comes at the expense of other people.

      • eljay
        August 8, 2016, 9:34 am

        || Mikhael: … Israel is the actual national homeland of Jews everywhere … ||

        Because it exists as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        [Snip a whole bunch of blather.]

        || … But foreign-born members of Jewiosh Diaspora communities are legally entitled to Israeli citizenship simply because they are Jewish, they should be entitled to Israeli citizenship simply because they are Jewish, and they will be entitled to Israeli citizenship. … ||

        Because Israel exists as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        || … A non-Jewish citizen of Canada who lives outside of Israel actually has no moral say in this matter … ||

        You Zio-supremacists either don’t know what the word moral means, or you just enjoy misusing it.

        Religion-based supremacism – any form of supremacism – is immoral. It is not immoral to have an opinion against immorality and in favour of the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality.

        [Snip a whole bunch more blather.]

        || … It is moral for Israel to grant easy access to Israeli citizenship to members of Jewish Diaspora communities abroad … ||

        It isn’t moral simply because Israel does it. I’m pretty sure you have no idea what the word moral actually means.

      • Mikhael
        August 22, 2016, 1:23 am

        RoHaAugust 8, 2016, 3:21 am

        It would help this discussion if you could tell us what “homeland” means, what conditions have to be fulfilled for Land X to be the homeland of Person Y, and what chain of moral reasoning gives Person Y a right to reside in his homeland.

        A “homeland” is the ancestral place of origin of a national group. Eres Yisrael is the national homeland of the Jewish People. Jews who are born in the Diaspora are entitled to view the Land of Israel as their ancestral homeland and ot move there.

        Then, perhaps I would be able to understand why Australia is not the homeland of Sir Isaac Isaacs.

        Isaac Isaacs is dead. he no longer has a homeland. He was a native-born Australian patriot and entitled to view Australia as his homeland. Although he rejected political Zionism, he was also entitled to view Eres Yisra’el as his national and ancestral homeland as well, and if had so chosen, he would have had a moral right to move there, as many other Jews born in Australia have.

        At the moment, it looks as though ancestry is the key element. But if the “out of Africa” theory is correct, that would mean that Kenya or some other part of Africa would be everyone’s homeland

        Really, you were a philosophy prof and you use that cheap reductio ad absurdum argument?
        Yes, all human beings alive may be able to trace their prehistoric lineages to an area that is roughly located within the borders of the present-day state of Kenya. Not all human beings are descended from people that formed their national self-identity within the borders present-day Kenya and maintained a physical presence there for millenia of recorded history as well as a cultural connection with the country through millenia of Diaspora.

        “It’s the most moral and just thing in the world for there always to be one country that Jews will not be expelled from or lose their rights in simply for being Jews.”

        Not if that country comes at the expense of other people.

        The “expense” that the “other people” paid is entirely due to the “other people’s” starting a war that they lost with the declared aim of totally expunging the Jewish population of the former British Mandate of Palestine.

      • Mikhael
        August 22, 2016, 1:38 am

        eljay August 8, 2016, 9:34 am

        || Mikhael: … Israel is the actual national homeland of Jews everywhere … ||

        Because it exists as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        A state that doesn’t use religious law as the main basis for civil law cannot be accutrately defined as a “religion-supremacist” state.

        [Snip a whole bunch of blather.]

        Yes, snip out the parts you’re not bright enough to understand and can’t respond to adequately.

        || … A non-Jewish citizen of Canada who lives outside of Israel actually has no moral say in this matter … ||

        You Zio-supremacists either don’t know what the word moral means, or you just enjoy misusing it. Religion-based supremacism – any form of supremacism – is immoral. It is not immoral to have an opinion against immorality and in favour of the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality.

        “Moral” ,in this context, means what is good and just. It is absolutely moral, good and just for there to be one place in the world where Jews will always be entitled to citizenship and a refuge, especially as this place is not some arbitrary locale like Patagonia, Uganda or Birobidzhan that were proposed as “Jewish homelands” but rather the actual ancestral homeland of most Jews alive today. Your opinion that Jews should be denied this basic right in their own ancestral national homeland is absolutely amoral. Fortunately, your opinion has no force and effect. But is amusing to watch you stamp your feet and whine.

      • eljay
        August 22, 2016, 9:02 am

        || Mikhael: … A state that doesn’t use religious law as the main basis for civil law cannot be accutrately defined as a “religion-supremacist” state. … ||

        A state that was envisioned as and established as and which for decades has been maintained as a state primarily of and for people all over the world who choose to possess a religion-based identity can be definitely be described as a religion-supremacist state.

        || [Snip a whole bunch of blather.] Yes, snip out the parts you’re not bright enough to understand and can’t respond to adequately. … ||

        You hurt feelings and make sad. :-(

        || … “Moral” ,in this context, means what is good and just. … ||

        In the Zio-supremacist world, moral is “moral”.

        || … It is absolutely moral, good and just for there to be one place in the world where Jews will always be entitled to citizenship and a refuge … ||

        It is absolutely moral, good and just that every country treat every one of its citizens equally and respectfully. There is nothing moral, good or just about a state carved out of Palestine that exists as a religion-supremacist construct for people who choose to be Jewish.

        || … Your opinion that Jews should be denied this basic right in their own ancestral national homeland is absolutely amoral. … ||

        Palestine is not the “ancestral homeland” of every person in the world who chooses to be Jewish. It is amoral to suggest that the religion-based identity of Jewish comprises an entitlement to Palestine (at the expense of its indigenous population).

        || … Fortunately, your opinion has no force and effect. … ||

        Well, duh. What next: The sun rises in the east?

        || … But is amusing to watch you stamp your feet and whine. ||

        Says the Zio-supremacist who stamps his feet and whines that Jews are entitled to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine. You’re funny. :-)

      • RoHa
        August 23, 2016, 6:06 pm

        Well, that is a start. A homeland is the land in which members of a nation came to be a nation. Savoy is the homeland of the Savoyards, and Australia is the homeland of the Australians. (Of course, since Savoy no longer exists, there are no Savoyards. Australia was the homeland of Sir I I, but the idea that, because he was a Jew, he also had a homeland in Palestine, is silly. The ancient Jewish nation in Palestine had long ceased to exist, so he could not be a member of that nation. He died before the new Jewish nation came into existence.)

        But at least one of my questions is answered. A homeland is not simply the country of one’s ancestors. In fact, ancestry seems irrelevant. The ancestors of Australians come from many different parts of the world.

        I’m still waiting for a chain of moral reasoning that justifies the claim that twentieth century Polish Jews had a right to live in Palestine simply because they were Jews.

        “The “expense” that the “other people” paid is entirely due to the “other people’s” starting a war that they lost with the declared aim of totally expunging the Jewish population of the former British Mandate of Palestine.”

        Now that is just a denial of reality.

      • Mikhael
        August 25, 2016, 2:25 am

        Raphael
        August 7, 2016, 1:08 pm
        Interesting, that you were able to go so back in history for your family. I was able to go back to around the 1850s for the Jewish side of my family

        On my mother’s (Ashkenazic from the former Austro-Hungarian Empire) side I can also only trace my ancestry to the mid-19th century. My father’s mother came from a pretty well-known Sefaradi rabbinical and mercantile family though, and most of the old Sephardic families that had been part of the “Old Yishuv” in the Land of Israel have good genealogical records.

      • Mikhael
        August 25, 2016, 3:17 am

        RoHa August 23, 2016, 6:06 pm
        Well, that is a start. A homeland is the land in which members of a nation came to be a nation. Savoy is the homeland of the Savoyards, and Australia is the homeland of the Australians. and (Of course, since Savoy no longer exists, there are no Savoyards.

        The region of Savoy still exists and is still populated by many people who maintain a Savoyard cultural identity, although it is now part of the French Republic, but if the Savoyard people who live there wish to assert their independence from the French Republic and people of Savoyard ancestry wish from abroad wish to live there, in theory, they should all have that right.

        Australia was the homeland of Sir I I, but the idea that, because he was a Jew, he also had a homeland in Palestine, is silly.

        During most of Isaac Isaac’s lifetime there was no such geopolitical entity known as “Palestine”, rather there were a collection of Ottoman Turkish-ruled administrative districts which would later be cobbled together and be called “Palestine” by the British towards the end of his life. But although, unlike Monash, he opposed a Jewish state in the national homeland of the Jews, he would still have been entitled to move there and obtain Israeli citizenship had he lived a few months longer. The only thing that stopped Eres Yisra’el from being his homeland was his denial of it. Fortunately, few Australian Jews think as he did. We know that the vast majority of the Jewish citizens of Australia, while they are for the most part loyal citizens of Australia and grateful for the rights they have there, still regard Israel as their national homeland and we can expect that aliyah to Israel from Australia will continue and grow in the future.

        The ancient Jewish nation in Palestine Eres Yisra’el had long ceased to exist, so he could not be a member of that nation. He died before the new Jewish nation came into existence.

        No, the ancient Jewish states (there were several in antiquity) in Eres Yisra’el (there were no ancient Jewish states in “Palestine” because the country was only first renamed that after the termination of the Jews’ independence in their homeland) had long ceased to exist before Isaac Isaac’s birth, but the Jewish nation existed for thousands of years before Isaac Isaac’s birth, in Eres Yisra’el and outside of it, even though that nation did not have political independence in a sovereign state in its own ancestral homeland during most of that period. A nation‘s existence isn’t contingent on that nation exercising sovereignty over a piece of territory and having political independence through the mechanism of a state. The Poles did not cease to be a nation after the partitions of their homeland and the end of the Polish state in the 18th century, neither did the Jews (although we had to wait longer for renewed independence in our homeland).

        But at least one of my questions is answered. A homeland is not simply the country of one’s ancestors. In fact, ancestry seems irrelevant. The ancestors of Australians come from many different parts of the world.

        A homeland is the country of one’s ancestors and/or another country that one lives in and feels at home in. These are not mutually exclusive categories.

        I’m still waiting for a chain of moral reasoning that justifies the claim that twentieth century Polish Jews had a right to live in Palestine Eres Yisra’el simply because they were Jews.

        They had a right to return to the land of their ancestors, they had a common national bond with their fellow Jews who had never left the land of their ancestors and with other Jews who had returned to the land of their ancestors from other parts of the Jewish Diaspora, and they had a need because they were certainly not living in their own homeland, among their own kin, when they lived in Poland. And whether you like it or not, it is a fait accompli that the descendants of these 20th century “Polish” Jews (some of whom had Polish citizenship after Poland regained independence but who otherwise were not Poles) who now live in Israel are Israelis, most of them have mixed, married and mated with other Israeli Jews who trace roots to other parts of the Jewish Diaspora such as Yemen, Hungary, Morocco, Germany, and Syria and they know no other home but Israel, and the vast majority of 21st century Israeli Jews who are descended from “Polish” Jews feel ties of national kinship and loyalty not to the Polish goy living in Warsaw but to other Jews, whether those Jews live in Adelaide or Isfahan.

        “The “expense” that the “other people” paid is entirely due to the “other people’s” starting a war that they lost with the declared aim of totally expunging the Jewish population of the former British Mandate of Palestine.”

        Now that is just a denial of reality.

        The reality that you ignore, of course, is that the political and military leadership of the “other people” openly declared their intent to totally expunge the Jewish population of Eres Yisra’el (the territory you refer to as “Palestine”). There is ample documentary evidence for this declared aim, including the verified quote I reproduced above from Azzam Pasha, the head of the Arab League, and this declared intent to eradicate the Jewish population from the former British Mandate of Palestine was in fact carried out in every part of the Arab-conquered areas of the former British Mandate of Palestine west of the Jordan River that had had a Jewish population prior to the outbreak of war between Israel and Arab states in 1948. All the areas which came under Arab control between 1948-1967 had their Jewish populations completely ethnically cleansed by Arabs. That is the reality, that is the incontestable historical record, and it seems that it is you who are denying that reality.

      • Mikhael
        August 25, 2016, 4:29 am

        eljay August 22, 2016, 9:02 am
        || Mikhael: … A state that doesn’t use religious law as the main basis for civil law cannot be accurately defined as a “religion-supremacist” state. … ||

        A state that was envisioned as and established as and which for decades has been maintained as a state primarily of and for people all over the world who choose to possess a religion-based identity can be definitely be described as a religion-supremacist state.

        Except Jewishness for many and maybe even most Jews, in Israel and the Diaspora, is not primarily a “religion-based” identity but is just as much and often more of an ethnic and cultural national identity.

        You hurt feelings and make sad. :-(

        Good.

        || … “Moral” ,in this context, means what is good and just. … ||

        In the Zio-supremacist world, moral is “moral”.

        There is no such thing as “Zio-supremacist” but all over the world it should be considered good and just for the descendants of people who were dispossessed from their ancestral homeland and whose ancestors suffered and were denied civic rights for centuries in the lands of the Diaspora to be able to return to their ancestral homeland where they are subject to their own laws and exercised national self-determination.

        || … It is absolutely moral, good and just for there to be one place in the world where Jews will always be entitled to citizenship and a refuge … ||

        It is absolutely moral, good and just that every country treat every one of its citizens equally and respectfully.

        Yup, absolutely. Israel, the nation-state of the Jewish People, treats all of its citizens, whether they are Jewish or non-Jewish, equally and respectfully. A non-Jewish citizen of the State of Israel has the same rights as a Jewish citizen of the State of Israel. You have failed to establish that Israel’s self-definition as a “Jewish state” infringes on any of the civil rights of the non-Jewish citizens of the State of Israel (many of whom wield significant political and economic power in Israel) or on the duties owed to all citizens of Israel by the government of the State of Israel. If a non-Jewish, Muslim Arab citizen of Israel gets arrested in Thailand on a drug-related offense, Israeli consular officials are duty-bound to render any assistance possible to him and will do so. If a Jewish citizen of Canada who has no Israeli citizenship status is arrested in Thailand along with the non-Jewish citizen of Israel for the same alleged offenses, the Jewish citizen of Canada must appeal to the Canadian Consulate, and not the Israeli consular official. In the 2009 L’Aquila earthquake in Italy (this is on my mind because of the current earthquake in the same region), Hussein Hamada, an Israeli citizen (I hope you’re smart enough to realize from his name that he wasn’t Jewish) a medical student in that city, was unfortunately killed. Israeli Foreign Ministry and consular officials in Italy did their duty for an Israeli citizen and worked to locate his body and brought him back home to Israel to be buried. His family certainly didn’t notify the Palestinian Authority and ask them for assistance. It is therefore clear that Israel’s self-definition as a Jewish state and the nation-state of the Jewish People doesn’t prejudice the rights its non-Jewish citizens have in any respect.

        There is nothing moral, good or just about a state carved out of Palestine that exists as a religion-supremacist construct for people who choose to be Jewish.

        It’s not a religion-supremacist state and you’re still failing to substantiate this allegation. And it has as much right to define itself as a nation-state for Jewish people who “choose to be” Jewish, just as Grece is a nation-state for Greek people who “choose to be” Greek, just as Armenia is a nation-state for Armenian people who “choose to be” Armenian and just as Croatia is a nation state for Croats who “choose to be” Croats.

        Palestine is not the “ancestral homeland” of every person in the world who chooses to be Jewish.

        But the vast majority of Jews worldwide trace their ancestry to historical Jewish Diaspora communities which can trace their foundational origins to people who once lived in Eres Yisra’el (long before the country was renamed “Palestine”). Eres Yisra’el is indeed the ancestral homeland of the vast majority of the world’s Jewish population and very soon the vast majority of the world’s Jewish population will be living in Eres Yisra’el, especially as once-large Jewish centers in North America and Europe will soon precipitously decline.

        It is amoral to suggest that the religion-based identity of Jewish comprises an entitlement to Palestine (at the expense of its indigenous population)

        Many Zionists who had a Jewish national and cultural identity in Eres Yisra’el could trace many generations in the country and were thus certainly indigenous and those Zionist immigrants to Eres Yisra’el who were born outside the country can legitimately claim indigenous descent. Many of the non-Jewish Arabic speakers who have in recent decades adopted and asserted a “Palestinian” national identity in fact are and were not descended from people “indigenous” to the territory that the British and French diplomats carved out and cobbled together from former Ottoman-ruled territories and renamed “Palestine” and many of them (although certainly not all) descend from relatively recent migrants who moved to what would later be called the British Mandate of Palestine during the late Ottoman period or even the British Mandate period. I’m not sure why an Israeli Jew like myself who comes from a family that can trace 17 generations in the country must concede “indigenous” status to all the non-Jews who now refer to themselves as “Palestinians” even if many of them can only trace their family roots in the country back seven or eight generations. (For example, the descendants of Bosnian Muslims who moved to the coastal plain near Ceasarea in 1878 to flee Bosnia after it came under Hapsburg control mostly now consider themselves “Palestinians” and no doubt you would classify them as “indigenous” to the country.)

        || … But it’s amusing to watch you stamp your feet and whine. ||

        Says the Zio-supremacist who stamps his feet and whines that Jews are entitled to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine. You’re funny. :-)

        No, this secular humanist liberal Zionist celebrates the reality of the State of Israel, a Jewish democratic nation-state and secular liberal society that exists in Eres Yisra’el (which was called “Palestine” during the very brief British rule of the country and which fans of British imperialism are apparently nostalgic for) and wholeheartedly supports the legitimate right to national self-determination for the Arabic-speaking non-Jewish population of Eres Yisra’el who have recently adopted a Palestinian national identity and fervently hopes that they succeed in establishing a self-governing sovereign nation-state of their own in as much of the land that they live on as possible. I just find it terribly amusing to watch your frustration and dismay that Jews no longer are victims and exercise agency in their own nation-state in their own ancestral homeland. While it is amusing to watch you stamp your feet and whine, it is also kinda sad that you devote so much of your time and energy to uselessly try to work to bring an end to the Jewish nation-state.

      • eljay
        August 25, 2016, 9:10 am

        || eljay: You hurt feelings and make sad. :-(  ||

        || Mikhael: Good. ||

        Your hateful and immoral Zio-supremacism has numbed you to the pain of others. :-(

        I’m sure you’ll continue to spew hatred at me, Mike, but I won’t be responding any more. This is farewell. Take care. :-)

      • Mr.T
        August 25, 2016, 11:56 am

        “all over the world it should be considered good and just for the descendants of people who were dispossessed from their ancestral homeland and whose ancestors suffered and were denied civic rights for centuries in the lands of the Diaspora to be able to return to their ancestral homeland where they are subject to their own laws and exercised national self-determination.”

        It would, if they didn’t act, against the native people whose land they stole, in a manner as bad or worse than the people who oppressed them in the Diaspora [sic]. Since they didn’t, and chose instead to act as barbarians, they should be scorned and condemned and their vile state condemned as the evil it is.

      • Mooser
        August 25, 2016, 4:45 pm

        “No, this secular humanist liberal Zionist”

        Except concerning women, and marriage of course.
        On those subjects “Michael” is strictly “frum, frum, frum til Daddy takes the Torah away”.

      • Mikhael
        August 26, 2016, 4:51 am

        Mooser August 25, 2016, 4:45 pm
        “No, this secular humanist liberal Zionist”

        Except concerning women, and marriage of course.
        On those subjects “Michael” is strictly “frum, frum, frum

        I was raised in a strictly observant household and have a very solid yeshiva education. Although I went through the motions as a child and young adult, I was never pious (“frum”). Going through the motions of a religious divorce and granting a get does not make one “frum”, so I’m still puzzled by why you find the fact of my having mentioned being divorced so fascinating. I’m sure I’m not the only Mondoweiss commenter who has been married and divorced more than once, especially as statistics show the divorce rate in the USA and Europe (where most MW commenters seem to be based) is at about 50%. In Israel only about 30% of marriages end in divorce.

      • Mikhael
        August 26, 2016, 5:07 am

        Mooser June 30, 2016, 4:22 pm
        “Your obsession with my (admittedly) unsuccessful attempts at married life”

        Terrible. I must be some kind of a sick person.

        What other reasons do you have to comment so frequently on this topic?

        This entire conversation has been a completely unwarranted intrusion, an invasion of your marital privacy.

        It’s no problem. There’s no “intrusion” as I volunteered that I’ve been divorced and as a yet again happily unmarried man I have no expectation to “marital privacy.” But you still haven’t explained as to why you think that the biographical tidbit I offered about myself wherein I mentioned that entered into and ended more than one marriage by mutual consent is any reflection on my character, or why you see fit to bring up this issue so often. You’ve alluded to many incidents in your own personal history and your spouse, I’ve never found these anecdotes worthy of comment. Thank you for your interest in my very modest marital history.

        – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/05/auctions-independence-inspired/#comment-844035

      • Mooser
        August 26, 2016, 10:57 am

        “I was raised in a strictly observant household and have a very solid yeshiva education.”

        Oh yes indeed! I wouldn’t doubt it for a second. Real solid, and well-grounded in the things every young man needs to know.

        Did you ever get those Reebok shoes Rebbe “Mikhael”? There’s nothing like an observant home and “solid” Yeshiva education too make a guy obsessed with fancy sneakers.
        Anyway, if you haven’t bought them yet, make sure to order the “Beersheba Special” model, which comes with steel toe-caps.

      • Mooser
        August 26, 2016, 11:18 am

        “I’m sure I’m not the only Mondoweiss commenter who has been married and divorced more than once”

        Sure, that may very well be. But you are the only commenter who bragged about his serial monogamy as a way of raising the Jewish birth-rate. Remember? That’s how this all started. How the hell would I even know what you are if you hadn’t told us all, in detail, how you had “done your part”?

        And “Michael”, don’t come back as a fish, even just for the halibut.

    • Mikhael
      May 22, 2016, 9:42 am

      Kay24 May 10, 2016, 12:13 pm

      The United States State Department estimated the number of Jews in Iran at 20,000–25,000 as of 2009.[59]

      Apparently the State Department figure echoes the Irainain Jewish community’s own estaimate., but according to the Iranian government”s 20122 census, it’s only 8,756. The larger number may include people in mixed marriages, e.g., Jewish women married to Muslim husbands, and theyr children, who are jewish by Jewish law. The government, however, would count these people as Muslims, and would want to undercount the number of Jews in terms of proportional representation in the Majlis, whe simutaneously braying and boasting to the outside world that they have such a large and prosperous and happyJewish community.

      I am sure Israel would LOVE to get all those Iranian Jews to move into illegal abodes and fill ’em up

      I don;t know about illegal abodes, but it is always good news and good for the Jewish people evert time a Jew moves to Israel from anyplace.

      It must have been disappointing that thousands of Jews still remains in Iran, after all how can Netanyahu keep saying it is such a nasty country, when some of their own refuses to leave

      These are on the whole, elderly people, and it is difficult for most people to pick up and move start over again. The Iranian Jews who stayed made their bargain with the regime that as long as they express loyalty to it, they can keep their businesses open and observe their religion. When the vast majority of Iranian Jews, however, have voted with their feet (literally, I know Jewse who escaped from Iran on foot, smuggled out bthrough Turkey and then resettled in Israel in the 1980s) because the situation in Iran was inolerable for them it is not rational to speak of how wonderful it is for Jews in Iran.

      • echinococcus
        May 22, 2016, 12:03 pm

        When the vast majority of Iranian Jews, however, have voted with their feet… because the situation in Iran was inolerable for them it is not rational to speak of how wonderful it is for Jews in Iran

        While it is sooo rational, isn’t it, according to typical Zionist “thinking”, not to compare it to what happened to any non-“Jewish” Iranians, like secular or averse to dictatorship or any number of preferences or just because they could, who moved their feet, too. Oh no, it’s just us and everybody is out to get only us –and that’s why Zionists are justified in stealing and murdering!

  6. Jackdaw
    May 10, 2016, 12:16 am

    And how is it that that 500,000+ Jewish refugees who fled their homes in Arab countries have been resettled?

    • a blah chick
      May 10, 2016, 10:23 am

      “And how is it that that 500,000+ Jewish refugees who fled their homes in Arab countries have been resettled?”

      Because Israel put them in towns and homes they had expelled 750,000 Palestinians from.

      • Jackdaw
        May 10, 2016, 2:09 pm

        And the Arab States put the Palestinian refugees where?

        (I don’t really expect an answer)

      • eljay
        May 10, 2016, 2:24 pm

        || Jackdaw: And the Arab States put the Palestinian refugees where? … ||

        The obligation to put refugees from Partition-borders Israel and Partition-borders Palestine back into their respective homes and onto their respective lands doesn’t lie with the Arab States.

        It lies with Israel and – whenever Israel stops f*cking around in Palestine – with the new Palestinian state.

        But you already knew that.

      • zaid
        May 10, 2016, 6:29 pm

        Jakdaw

        Provide evidence for the expulsion of the Jews form Arab land , and specifically for the 500000 number.

        Jordan gave All Palestinian refugees the Jordanian nationality and today they number 4,000,000.

      • talknic
        May 10, 2016, 8:26 pm

        @ Jackdaw May 10, 2016, 2:09 pm

        “And the Arab States put the Palestinian refugees where?”

        They generously hosted them for 68 years at enormous financial cost and at times at high cost to their own societies

        “(I don’t really expect an answer)”

        I can almost guarantee you’ll find it’s Ziobots such as yourself who’re prone to not answering http://mondoweiss.net/profile/talknic/?keyword=ll+wait

      • David Gerald Fincham
        May 11, 2016, 4:46 am

        No-one knows how many of the Jews moving to Israel from Arab countries after the 1948-49 war were refugees. Israel’s Declaration called for the “in-gathering of the exiles”. Many were responding to that call, and migrated of their own free will. Anyway, they ceased to be refugees when they adopted Israeli citizenship. You might like to read the book “Sipping from the Nile” about a Jewish family in Cairo in those times. Although they were known to support Zionism, they felt no pressure to leave until Israel attacked Egypt in 1956.

      • Mikhael
        June 5, 2016, 2:36 pm

        talknic May 23, 2016, 4:00 am

        A) Israel isn’t going to allow dual citizenship to non-Jewish Arabs, so in effect by taking up citizenship elsewhere, they’d abandon Israeli citizenship

        “Non-Jewish Arab” is a tautology.
        That said, Arab citizens of Israel (who by definition are non-Jews) who leave Israel and acquire a second citizneship do not relinquish their Israeli citizenship unless they voluntarily renounce it. They can also pass on their Israeli citizenship to their foreign-born children, although only for one generation (like all Israeli citizens). Case in point: the anti-Israel ISM activist Huweida Arraf, born in Detroit Michigan, USA, whose father was an Arab citizen (which means non-Jewish citizen) who emigrated to the USA and who nbever renounced his Israeli citizneship, automatically acquired Israeli citizenship through her father at birth even though she was born in the USA. As someone born in the USA, she also had US citizenship at birth. Like any other Israeli citizen, she has full right of travel ingto and out of Israel and takes full advantage of this right to engage in hostile activities against Israel.

        http://palsolidarity.org/tag/huwaida-arraf/Huwaida Arraf is a Palestinian lawyer with American and Israeli citizenship.

        Here is another example of an Israeli Arab who has dual citizenship in Israel and Brazil and took advantage of his rigjht to Israeli citizenship and moved back to his father’s country of birth in order to serve in the IDF.

        https://www.idfblog.com/blog/2012/02/07/family-firsts-meet-first-ever-druze-lone-soldier/

        Of course, foreign Arabs who never held Israeli citizenship, or whose parents and grandparents never held Israeli citizenship, are not automatically entitled to claim Israeli citizenship merely on the basis of the fact that they or their families lived in what became Israel prior to 1948.

      • lysias
        June 5, 2016, 3:16 pm

        Whether Israel admits it or not, there are Jewish Arabs. Iraqi Jew Naeim Giladi insisted in his book Ben Gurion’s Scandals that he was a Jewish Arab.

      • Annie Robbins
        June 5, 2016, 3:35 pm

        there are many mizrahi jews who self identify as arab jews although zionist efforts to extract jews from arab identity has stepped up considerably in the last decade. the wiki page of “arab jews” is primarily about the debate. but as long as there are arab jews who identify as such no one can claim they don’t exist or aren’t arab.

        i am reminder of this video of that guy that goes around israel making hasbara videos asking all these questions of everyone about topics of controversy. one was about falafels or humus (i can’t recall) so they go to all these restaurants and ask the chefs/cooks is falafels (or humus) is an israeli food vs an arab food and a few of the cooks (israeli jews) said — i’m an arab jew! one said his family was from egypt. so for sure there are arab jews all over the place who identify as arab jews, even in israel. you can’t just demand people identify the way you want. remember when the israel gov decided to stop identifying palestinian christians as arab? the response was fast and furious. israel and israel’s supporters should get out of the business of trying to define (and confine) what an arab is.

      • Mikhael
        June 5, 2016, 6:05 pm

        lysias June 5, 2016, 3:16 pm

        Whether Israel admits it or not, there are Jewish Arabs. Iraqi Jew Naeim Giladi insisted in his book Ben Gurion’s Scandals that he was a Jewish Arab.

        It’s not just because Israel denies the existence of Israel, but the Jews who you have decided are Arabs reject this terminology and historically never identified with it, well before the establishment of Israel, and always saw themselves as not only a separate religious community but a separate national and ethnic community, and in fact were so seen by their Arab former neighbors. The meme of “Arab Jew” has only started to be disseminated in recent years, in fact. You can poll Jews living outside Israel whose families emigrated from Arab countries and moved to the USA, the UK, France and Australia and they willaugh in astonishment at the suggestion that they are Arabs. Basically, there are about six useful useless idiots/tools who describe themselves as “Arab Jews”, 5 living, one dead, i.e., Giladi. Go to the Iraqi-Jewish neighborhood in Ramat Gan Israel and ask Israeli Jews of Iraqi-Jewish descent what they think of Naeem Giladi, and they will ask “Who?”.Then tell them he was an Iraqi Jew who said he was an Arab and they will collapse in peals of laughter. If you think they are saying this only because Israel somehow brainwashed them and threatened them into abandoning their Arab identity, you’ll get the same reaction if you go to Jamaica Estates, Queens, New York, where there is a synagogue of Jews whose families escaped Iraq. and ask them the same question Congregation Bnei Naharayim (Children of the Two Rivers, i.e., Tigris and Euphrates) has a website with a list of prominent Iraqi Jews who moved to the USA, where’s Naeem Giladi on that list? They do celebrate Israeli Independence Day and Jerusalem Day, though. When 99.9% of the Mizrahi Jews who were born in Arab states (or whose parents and grandparents were born in Arab states) eschew the label “Arab” as a self-identifier, and only a few self-styled “radical” nutjobs like Ella Shohat or David Shahsa (who I shaer Syrian-Jewish roots with)) get Stockholm Syndrome and think they’e Arabs, it’s irrational, insulting and highly condescending to foist an identity on people who want no part of it. You’ll find more real Arabs (and of course, by “real Arabs,” I mean non-Jews, whether Muslims, Christians, or Druze) in Israel who identify with the aims of Zionism and
        have adopted an Israeli-Arab identity then you will find “Arab Jews” in Israel or outside of Israel.

      • Mikhael
        June 5, 2016, 7:00 pm

        Annie Robbins June 5, 2016, 3:35 pm

        there are many mizrahi jews who self identify as arab jews although zionist efforts to extract jews from arab identity has stepped up considerably in the last decade.

        The delusions that European Jews briefly had (and were tragically disabused of) that they shared the national identity of their nonJewish neighbors was never widespread among Jews in Arab countries. Mizrahi Jews have always been more sober and realistic.

        but as long as there are arab jews who identify as such no one can claim they don’t exist or aren’t arab.

        Approximately half a dozen misfits (“misfits” is putting it mildly as to how they’d be regarded in their own Mizrahi-Jewish communities if they were even widely known about, “freaks” might bea more apt term) does not a real constituency make.

        i am reminder of this video of that guy that goes around israel making hasbara videos asking all these questions of everyone about topics of controversy. one was about falafels or humus (i can’t recall) so they go to all these restaurants and ask the chefs/cooks is falafels (or humus) is an israeli food vs an arab food and a few of the cooks (israeli jews) said — i’m an arab jew! one said his family was from egypt.

        The video is here:

        Corey Gil Shuster (fun channel, I recommend it) indeed did go out to ask Israelis about “Why did you steal hummus from the Arabs?” Not one of them answered by saying “I’m an Arab Jew!” as you incorrectly recall. Yes, one of them answered “Hem ganvu mimeni…ani Misri” (they stole it from me, I’m Egyptian”). Israeli Jews will mention the country of origin or their parents’ countries of origin, and often these will be Arab countries, but that’s not the same in an Israeli context of self-identifcation as “Arab“. One of them laughed and when asked “Eizo eida ata?” (What community are you?) answered “Ani Aravi!” (I’m an Arab!). He never said ” I’m an Arab Jew” I had this discussion with talknic on his blog before he banned me, and he put the link to the video up there and also insisted that the fact that the man who answred he was Arab had to have meant he was a so-called “Arab Jew” but both you and he, as non-Israelis who don’t speak any Hebrew, are completely tone-deaf to what saying “I’m Arab” means in an Israeli context. It means you’re not a Jew.
        On the other hand, Mizrahi Jews may say that they are Teimani, Moroka’i, Mitzri, Iraqi, etc.. (Yemenite, Moroccan, Egyptian, Iraqi) etc. and mention the Arab countries that they or their families used to live in, but it’s not the same as identifying as “Arabs” or even with the non-Jewish yementies, Iraqis, Moroccans, Egyptians, Libyans, etc. They’ll refer to their non-Jewish former neighbors in those countries as Arabs, and they may say things like “Relations between Arabs and Jews back in Yemen were sometimes good and sometimes bad,” or “I had very dear Arab friends in Iraq, but I never trusted most of the Arabs after the Farhoud pogroms of the Jews in Baghdad in 1941,” and it’s clear that the term “Arab” in relation to themselves is extrinsic to their own self-identity. My father’s family were Jerusalemites and my father’s parents spoke Arabic with native fluency (his mother, my paternal grandmother, from a family of Sephardic Jews that had settled in Galilee and later Jerusalem, grew up speaking Arabic and Ladino –Judeao-Spanish–., Ladino in the home, Arabic in the streets and markets, and his father’s (my paternal grandfather) first language was Arabic, as his parents migrated to Jerusalem from Aleppo and Damascus in the 1870s and 1890s) but it never occurred to them to identify as Arabs. I also recall asking them as a kid how things were between Arabs and Jews in Jerusalem in the 1910s, 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. They never once said “We’re also Arabs, Arab Jews”. They talked about how my
        great-grandmother gave my grandmother to an Arab woman to be nursed, and how her sister did the same thing for an Arab woman, they talked about the Arab rioters in Jerusalem in 1929 who slashed my great uncle’s face, and it was alwyas clear from context that whatever the relations were, sometimes good, sometimes bad, between Mizrahim and Arabs, the “they” were Arab and the “we” were Jews.

        so for sure there are arab jews all over the place who identify as arab jews, even in israel.

        Maybe two in Israel (Yehuda Shenhav is one of them, I forget who the other is, perhaps the author Sami Mikhael) , and three in the USA (Ella Shohat, who can’t even speak any Arabic, Sami Cheetrit, and David Shasha) Naeem Giladi was the other one, and he’s dead. All but Shahsha and Cheetrit are of Iraqi background.

        (you can’t just demand people identify the way you want

        Absolutely, so you shouldn’t insist on imposing an unrequited Arab identity on the vast majority of Jews whose families escaped Arab persecution and found their home in Israel .

        remember when the israel gov decided to stop identifying palestinian christians as arab? the response was fast and furious

        Some Arabic-speaking Christians who practise Maronite Christianity and who claim Aramean ancestry in the Israeli town of Jish petitioned the Israeli government to recognize them as Arameans, and not as “Arab Christians”. This was entirely of their own initiative and for many years, the Israeli government ignored their request and finally acceded it to in 2014*, †. The response by people who hate Israel was fast and furious.

        and the proud . israel and israel’s supporters should get out of the business of trying to define (and confine) what an arab is

        Right, this is why you should respect the wishes of the overwhelming majpority of Jews whose families left Arab-dominated societies not to be referred to as Arab, as well as the small number of Maronite Christians who wish to claim an Aramean identity in Israel.

        *The change in the national registry will be by request for those Christians born into Christian families or clans and who can speak Aramaic. A large group of Christians had already applied for such recognition four years ago, and will now be granted the desired ethnic status. (@ http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/24936/Default.aspx)

        http://www.aramaic-center.com/about.html

      • Mooser
        August 26, 2016, 2:36 pm

        “No-one knows how many of the Jews moving to Israel from Arab countries after the 1948-49 war were refugees.”

        If I am not mistaken, there were as many as 250,000 Jewish persons in European Displaced Persons camps after WW2.

    • talknic
      May 10, 2016, 10:33 am

      @ Jackdaw May 10, 2016, 12:16 am

      “And how is it that that 500,000+ Jewish refugees who fled their homes in Arab countries have been resettled?”

      Simple. They took citizenship in countries other than their country of return, thereby foregoing refugee status and RoR

      They were first cared for in Israel by UNRWA until 1952 when the Israeli Government finally agreed to care for them, housing many of them in the homes of dispossessed non-Jews expelled by Jewish terrorists under Plan Dalet and after 15th May 1948 by Israel forces

      Whereas refugees who were non-Jewish Israeli citizens appear to care more for, would rather return to and have a right return to their homelands, even if it is now called Israel

      BTW it’s normal for possible allies of one’s enemies to be interned or expelled when countries are at war. Also quite normal to allow their return and or freedom after hostilities have ceased. Except of course if they’ve taken citizenship in another country, such as Israel. There are no longer any Arab Jewish refugees

      • bryan
        May 10, 2016, 11:08 am

        Talknic

        Your excellent and apposite points are usually documented with citations from the appropriate chapters of international law or UN charter / resolutions. In this case there is no reference.

        I assume you are saying that Palestinian victims of the Nakba who, having fled Palestine, were forced to accept citizenship in Chile, the US, Canada, Germany or elsewhere, have, in so-doing, abandoned their claim to Palestinian citizenship. Can you please confirm, with citation. Those references I have seen to the Palestinian diaspora having legitimate interest in the resolution of I/P and entitlement to participate in an eventual plebiscite, or whatever, refers then only to those who remained stateless. Does this mean that the approx. 40% of total refugees who have been allowed Jordanian citizenship, even whilst remaining UNWRA-registered have sacrificed their RoR? Please clarify.

      • talknic
        May 10, 2016, 8:17 pm

        @ bryan

        “I assume you are saying that Palestinian victims of the Nakba who, having fled Palestine, were forced to accept citizenship in Chile, the US, Canada, Germany or elsewhere”

        ‘forced’? How? Why?

        ” … have, in so-doing, abandoned their claim to Palestinian citizenship. “

        If they were non-Jewish Israeli citizens and took up permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return, they abandoned Israeli citizenship.

        If they were from territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were “outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine”and took up permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return, they abandoned Palestinian citizenship

        ” … Can you please confirm, with citation”

        Sure. The UNHCR statute … http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/search?page=search&docid=3ae69ee64&query=UNHCR%20Statute … and the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees 1950 … http://legal.un.org/avl/ha/prsr/prsr.html

        The only difference between Jewish and non-Jewish Palestine refugees and other refugees is in who (UNRWA) cared/s for them while they were/are refugees

        “Those references I have seen to the Palestinian diaspora having legitimate interest in the resolution of I/P and entitlement to participate in an eventual plebiscite, or whatever, refers then only to those who remained stateless”

        Not entirely accurate. Correct in that such plebiscites only relate to the legitimate citizens of the territory in question.

        As to being stateless. It’s arguable. Some refugees were from territory that became the State of Israel and some were from territory that remained of the State of Palestine (Nationality Law was adopted in 1925 per Article 7 of the LoN Mandate for Palestine … http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp#art7 … Palestine was a Nation State at the time of Israel’s secession from Palestine)

        ” Does this mean that the approx. 40% of total refugees who have been allowed Jordanian citizenship, even whilst remaining UNWRA-registered have sacrificed their RoR? “

        Again, not entirely accurate.
        A) Jordan annexed only as a trustee … (per the UN Charter Chapt X1 http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-xi/index.html ) … at the behest of the other Arab States (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950) which is why there was no UNSC condemnation of that annexation, unlike the UNSC condemnation of Israel’s illegal annexation of East Jerusalem … http://wp.me/pDB7k-W8
        B) They were not all given or took full/permanent citizenship.
        C) Full citizen rights can also be afforded sans full/permanent citizenship

      • David Gerald Fincham
        May 11, 2016, 5:11 am

        @talknic “If they were non-Jewish Israeli citizens and took up permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return, they abandoned Israeli citizenship.

        If they were from territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were ‘outside the State of Israel’ … ‘in Palestine’ and took up permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return, they abandoned Palestinian citizenship.”

        Not necessarily. Not all states require immigrants who become citizens to renounce previous citizenships. Not all states require emigrants who become citizens of another country to renounce their original citizenship. Article 12 of the 2003 Draft Constitution of Palestine says:

        “Palestinian nationality shall be regulated by law, without prejudice to the rights of anyone who legally acquired it prior to May 10, 1948 or the right of any Palestinian who resided in Palestine prior to this date and fled, was forced to immigrate, or prevented from returning thereto. This right passes on from fathers or mothers to their offspring. It does not cease or lapse unless voluntarily relinquished in the manner prescribed by law. A Palestinian cannot be deprived of his nationality. The acquisition and relinquishment of Palestinian nationality and the rights and duties of those with multiple citizenship shall be regulated by law.”

      • Mikhael
        May 22, 2016, 8:19 pm

        talknic
        @ Jackdaw
        Whereas refugees who were non-Jewish Israeli citizens appear to care more for, would rather return to and have a right return to their homelands, even if it is now called Israel

        None of these “refugees” who you refer to were ever Israeli citizens. The passage you highlight in your link to the Israeli Declaration of Indpendence, where the government appealed to Arab inhabitants to participate in the building of Israeli society ” on the basis of full and equal citizenship” does not grant Israeli citizenship to foreign Arabs whose ancestors rejected that appeal and that opportunity and moved to enemy countries. The non-Jews who were entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship are those who resided in the country during the Mandate Period and who were present within Israel at the end of the war and who were counted in the Israeli Census in 1952.

        There are no longer any Arab Jewish refugees

        There never were any “Arab Jewish refugee” but there were Jews from Arab countries who left those countries and had to abandon their properties and assets under duress. These Israeli Jews, it is true, can’t exactly be considered refugees because they were repatriated to their actual national homeland, Israel. They are nevertheless entitled to compensation for their assets, which which were unjustly taken from them by Arab governments.

      • talknic
        May 23, 2016, 3:47 am

        Mikhael steps in it …

        @ Mikhael May 22, 2016, 8:19 pm

        “None of these “refugees” who you refer to were ever Israeli citizens. The passage you highlight in your link to the Israeli Declaration of Indpendence, where the government appealed to Arab inhabitants to participate in the building of Israeli society ” on the basis of full and equal citizenship” does not grant Israeli citizenship to foreign Arabs whose ancestors rejected that appeal and that opportunity and moved to enemy countries”

        They weren’t “foreign Arabs”, they were from the area that was proclaimed as Israel by the Provisional Israeli Government — http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf — and subsequently recognized by the International Comity of Nations prior to UN Membership

        ” The non-Jews who were entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship are those who resided in the country during the Mandate Period and who were present within Israel at the end of the war and who were counted in the Israeli Census in 1952″

        Strange, the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel was written in 1948 and it cites UNGA res 181

        “There never were any “Arab Jewish refugee” but there were Jews from Arab countries ..”

        = Jews from Arab countries seeking refuge = Arab Jewish refugees

        ” … who left those countries and had to abandon their properties and assets under duress”

        It’s normal for countries at war to either expel or intern possible allies of their enemies. Australia, the US, the UK interned or expelled their own citizens of Japanese and German heritage and froze their assets during WW2.

        It’s also normal to allow their return or freedom and release their assets after hostilities are over unless they took up permanent citizenship of a country other than that of return, whereby they were no longer refugees.

        “These Israeli Jews, it is true, can’t exactly be considered refugees because they were repatriated to their actual national homeland, Israel.”

        They didn’t become Israeli Jews until they acquired Israeli citizenship, prior to which they were not Israeli. they were refugees, cared for by UNRWA BTW until 1952 when the Israeli government finally took care of them

        “They are nevertheless entitled to compensation for their assets, which which were unjustly taken from them by Arab governments”

        Odd isn’t it that the Israeli Government has never made any claims on the Arab States on their behalf. Could it be that they are deprived of their assets because such a claim by the Israeli Government would be an admission that the same should also apply to dispossessed non-Jewish refugees. Compensation due would send Israel bankrupt

      • talknic
        May 23, 2016, 4:00 am

        @ David Gerald Fincham May 11, 2016, 5:11 am

        // @talknic “If they were non-Jewish Israeli citizens and took up permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return, they abandoned Israeli citizenship.

        If they were from territories the Israeli Government itself claimed on May 22nd 1948 were ‘outside the State of Israel’ … ‘in Palestine’ and took up permanent citizenship in a country other than that of return, they abandoned Palestinian citizenship.” //

        “Not necessarily. Not all states require immigrants who become citizens to renounce previous citizenships”

        A) Israel isn’t going to allow dual citizenship to non-Jewish Arabs, so in effect by taking up citizenship elsewhere, they’d abandon Israeli citizenship

        B) I purposefully used the word “permanent” as distinguishable from dual citizenship

      • Mikhael
        June 5, 2016, 1:57 pm

        talknic May 23, 2016, 3:47 am

        Mikhael steps in it …

        They weren’t “foreign Arabs”, they were from the area that was proclaimed as Israel by the Provisional Israeli Government — link to trumanlibrary.org — and subsequently recognized by the International Comity of Nations prior to UN Membership

        As Arabs who reside outside of Israel and who are not Israeli citizens, they are by definition foreign Arabs.

        ” The non-Jews who were entitled to automatic Israeli citizenship are those who resided in the country during the Mandate Period and who were present within Israel at the end of the war and who were counted in the Israeli Census in 1952″

        Strange, the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel was written in 1948 and it cites UNGA res 181

        Israel’s Declaration of Independence is not a legal instrument that establishes the mechanism for the acquistion of Israeli citizenship. Your mentioning that it cites UNGA Resolution 181 also has no relevance to that discussion.

        = Jews from Arab countries seeking refuge = Arab Jewish refugees

        Israeli Jews whose ancestors were fortunate enough to move to Israel from Arab countries were not and are not “Arabs” but Jews, who are a separate group with an ethnic and national identity distinct from Arabs. Having ancestors who used to live in an Arab country does not render Mizrahi Jews in Israel Arabs any more than Kurds, Armenians, Assyrians, Berbers or Turkomen (separate ethnic groups that live in Arab societies) are Arabs. We do not share the national aspirations of Arabs, neither did our ancestors.

        ” … who left those countries and had to abandon their properties and assets under duress”

        It’s normal for countries at war to either expel or intern possible allies of their enemies. Australia, the US, the UK interned or expelled their own citizens of Japanese and German heritage and froze their assets during WW2

        The Arabs in question who claim “refugee” status are non-Israeli citizens whose ancestors sided with invading enemy armies in 1948-1949.

        It’s also normal to allow their return or freedom and release their assets after hostilities are over unless they took up permanent citizenship of a country other than that of return, whereby they were no longer refugees.

        They have in most cases taken up permanent residence in other countries (although Jordan was the only Arab country that granted them citizenship en mass, a step which they have bene revoking in recent years). The failure of Arab states to grant citizneship to the “Palestinian refugees” who have lived in their countries for several decades is not Israel’s problem,

        They didn’t become Israeli Jews until they acquired Israeli citizenship, prior to which they were not Israeli. they were refugees, cared for by UNRWA BTW until 1952 when the Israeli government finally took care of them

        UNRWA briefly assisted former Palestinian Jews who had been expelled by the Jordanians from the part of the former Palestine Mandate that they conquered in 1948 and didn’t aid Jewish immigrants and refugees who had moved from Arab states to Israel.

        “They are nevertheless entitled to compensation for their assets, which which were unjustly taken from them by Arab governments”

        Odd isn’t it that the Israeli Government has never made any claims on the Arab States on their behalf. Could it be that they are deprived of their assets because such a claim by the Israeli Government would be an admission that the same should also apply to dispossessed non-Jewish refugees. Compensation due would send Israel bankrupt

        In the context of a general peace settlement, compensation for foreign Arabs who lost family property in what became Israel should definitely be on the table and Israel would be able to handle it without much problem. But foreign Arabs, who are not and never were Israeli citizens, don’t have a “right of return” to our country, neither morally nor under any reading of Israeli law. As part of normalization between Israel and the various Arab states that have been party to the conflict, Jewish citizens of Israel whose families had to abandon family assets which were confiscated or nationalized by those states Arab states are also entitled to redress.

        Anyway, Happy Jerusalem Day!

    • eljay
      May 10, 2016, 11:09 am

      || Jackdaw: And how is it that that 500,000+ Jewish refugees who fled their homes in Arab countries have been resettled? ||

      I don’t know: How is it?

      Regardless of how it is or isn’t, it has no bearing on the continued refusal by Israel to allow refugees from Israel and Palestine to return to their respective homes and lands.

  7. hophmi
    May 10, 2016, 12:21 am

    You want a shoe to commemorate a tragedy? How about you make a functioning state, and then you can have your own shoe. #jealousy

    • a blah chick
      May 10, 2016, 10:24 am

      “You want a shoe to commemorate a tragedy? How about you make a functioning state…”

      Yeah, but Zionists couldn’t wait that long.

    • eljay
      May 10, 2016, 11:00 am

      || hophmi: You want a shoe to commemorate a tragedy? How about you make a functioning state, and then you can have your own shoe. … ||

      Hard to do while you Zio-supremacists and your supremacist state continue, among other things, to:
      – occupy and colonize Partition-borders Palestinian territory; and
      – control Palestine’s resources, borders, airspace and territorial waters.

      Take your jackboots of the necks of Palestinians and let them have their state.

      || … #jealousy ||

      #jackassziosupremacist

    • ritzl
      May 10, 2016, 2:10 pm

      This IS a shoe that commemorates a tragedy.

    • Mooser
      May 10, 2016, 2:47 pm

      “How about you make a functioning state”

      How bout you start by drawing your functioning state’s borders?

  8. rolf
    May 10, 2016, 10:03 am

    ••Truly Shameful INDEPENDENCE DAY celebrations: ISRAEL’s 68 years of OPPRESSION
    over Palestinians in REEBOK + ADIDAS commemorative shoes?!••
    BOYCOTT Reebok/Adidas that literally trample on Oppressed people & sell souls profits!! Hail BDS!

    article by Electronic Intifada May 9 https://goo.gl/04KzOI

    israel:
    1917-11-02 Balfour Declaration
    1948-05-14 declaration / independence day
    1949-05-01 recognition
    …all by ethnic cleansing of 500+ villages (700,000+ people) or incremental Genocide!

    • See the effect of independence spitting on “Never Again” through supremacist Entitlement from israeli jew Natali Cohen Vaxberg https://youtu.be/flfUvPyLVZI
    • yet Clintonialism hails israel as “‘modern day miracle’ & “vibrant bloom in desert”?! http://goo.gl/8C5OLN – how dispicable is that claim when anyone given
    • israelis celebrate & picnic their independence over the cost of “Nakba” on the other side – it is only possible to not see the irony & perversion to celebrate such independence, as during American THANKSGIVING over the lives of Native “Indians”, if you consider yourself Chosen or independent from Humanity & real Judaism (which defends every single life as saving the Universe)!

    • is it not ENOUGH?!! that…
    1. Palestinians never caused holocaust yet pay the world’s price for it?!
    2. Palestinians have been treated as sub-human worthless garbage for over 67 years
    3. Palestinian athletes are disallowed by israel to train/exist!
    4. “We are the ONLY PEOPLE on Earth asked to GUARANTEE the SECURITY of our OCCUPIER!
    While Israel is the ONLY COUNTRY that calls for DEFENSE from its VICTIMS!”
    Hanan Ashrawi (Palestinian legislator/activist/scholar)
    5. israel is the sole “democracy in the M.E.”?! My Ass! It’s the sole country in the world using “holocaust as Industry” + reversing “Never Again” + playing Victim when Oppressor!!

  9. CigarGod
    May 10, 2016, 10:19 am

    Reebok owned by Adidas.
    Huge company to boycott.

  10. MaxNarr
    May 10, 2016, 10:20 am

    Beautiful shoe. This Jew… wants THAT shoe! Forget the haters! #Reebok all the way!

  11. Boo
    May 10, 2016, 10:26 am

    What Reebok oddly neglects to mention is that this model comes with the street-proven “HushPuppy” soles — guaranteed to make the least noise when sneaking up on Palestinian homes in the middle of the night to firebomb them. #1 selling point for illegal settler thugs.

  12. genesto
    May 10, 2016, 12:02 pm

    Once again, the product or organization that we target for BDS – or, at least, consider for such because of its ties to the Occupation – is crap. Reebok, like Caterpillar in the construction industry, can’t hold a candle to its competitors.

    I’d like to see an analysis of this by someone, or some group, that has the time to do so, i.e. a careful look at the quality of the BDS target when compared to others in the respective industry. I believe you’ll find that there is a close correlation between poor quality and ties to the most Zionist elements in the struggle.

    • DaBakr
      May 11, 2016, 9:56 pm

      Caterpillar can’t hold a candle to its competitors? WTF. Have you ever driven a backhoe? hitachi and komatsu (#2 and #3 respectively after cat)machines are all over israel but there are no substitutes for certain iconic earth movers like the cat9 and a few other adapted models for military use.

      boycott caterpillar all you like as is your right but just take a look around at most major international construction sites and you know when you see the yellow-your seeing cat.

      israel is a relatively small market for them but they have shown no sign of backing off and giving up to japan.

      it just seems that bds-wether of the zionist entity or of the companies that engage with it are drops of water in the sea. until there is any inclination-which there is not-to bds zionists with internationally adopted policies harsher then labeling of food- it will remain the fantasy vengeance of the true-believers on the far left. and yes, many have seen the so-called ‘damages’ done to the zionist entities economy. soda stream is still sold world wide as is ahava. the OECD has predicted the zionist economy will grow over 3.5% in ’16, ’17 and on through ’20. the shekel will remain strong against regional powers and one has to nit-pick through most forecasts to find areas of negative growth.

      BDS continues to win on left-wing US college campus’s until it doesn’t. Vassar was a bummer and a surprise. hard to predict how things will go as the issue gains more prominence. there was a very thought-provoking piece in the US commentary about the new group-think and intolerance coming from the campus far-left and the current crop of US left-wing students. hard to tell if its a trend, a fad, or just blind ignorance similar to how youth are indoctrinated in other far-left nations like north-korea

      • talknic
        May 23, 2016, 4:05 am

        @ DaBakr

        ” … far-left nations like north-korea”

        That’s gotta be one of the most delusional statements of the last few centuries.

        Zionist colonizers will say anything no matter how ridiculous

  13. wfleitz
    May 10, 2016, 12:52 pm

    From Ali Abunimah at EI. It sounds like the main Reebok group didn’t even know about this and that it was a “consumer initiative” whatever that means.

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/reebok-cancels-sneaker-celebrating-israels-independence

    International sportswear maker Reebok has canceled and repudiated plans to market a special edition sneaker celebrating what Israel calls its “Independence Day.”

    “Reebok would like to distance itself from the shoe,” the US-headquartered company told The Electronic Intifada in an emailed statement. “The shoe was a one-off initiative from one of our consumers. We do not support this initiative.”

    Reebok, which is owned by Germany’s Adidas Group, added that its Israel distributor “has withdrawn its plans to auction off this shoe.”

    Palestinians are welcoming the move.

  14. Citizen
    May 10, 2016, 1:38 pm

    Reebok cancels sneaker celebrating Israel’s “independence” http://bit.ly/24KKBHI pic.twitter.com/fMLluRVXBF

    • Kay24
      May 10, 2016, 10:21 pm

      So they took that ugly pair of sneakers out of zio world before they got the boot from the rest of the world. Good move, Reebok, a wise decision.

  15. just
    May 10, 2016, 1:45 pm

    Wow! That was quick… (boo- hoo Mikhael and Max)

    YAY.

    • ritzl
      May 10, 2016, 2:19 pm

      Heh. More like immediate!

      Looks like Israeli bad acts have become generally accepted as bad acts, or at least as highly problematic. No internal deliberations required. At least at Addidas/Reebok.

  16. Shmuel
    May 10, 2016, 2:00 pm

    Looks like somebody put their foot in it.

    • just
      May 10, 2016, 2:03 pm

      Good one!

      • Mooser
        May 10, 2016, 2:35 pm

        “Looks like somebody put their foot in it.”

        That shoe is self-guiding in cow-pastures and the no-leash area.

  17. Sycamores
    May 10, 2016, 9:37 pm

    hilarious today on twitter #AskNetanyahu backfires and now Reebok backtracks

  18. Ossinev
    May 22, 2016, 12:33 pm

    @DaBakr
    “BDS continues to win on left-wing US college campus’s until it doesn’t. Vassar was a bummer and a surprise. hard to predict how things will go as the issue gains more prominence. there was a very thought-provoking piece in the US commentary about the new group-think and intolerance coming from the campus far-left and the current crop of US left-wing students. hard to tell if its a trend, a fad, or just blind ignorance similar to how youth are indoctrinated in other far-left nations like north-korea”

    Sounds like you have been sniffing the old Zio glue again – “Left wing” US students = North Korean students FFS!

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