New Israel Fund response to Ben Gurion harassment reinforces very system it claims to oppose

Israel/Palestine
on 161 Comments

Yesterday, New Israel Fund Vice President Jennifer Gorovitz was detained and questioned at Ben Gurion airport for 90 minutes when she arrived in Israel to attend a New Israel Fund board meeting. In response, New Israel Fund CEO Daniel Sokatch sent out an email to supporters (see below) saying the incident appeared “to be an act of political targeting by border security.”

While I understand Sokatch was describing an example of Israeli harassment of someone trying to enter the country, I found the letter to be an example of the problem itself.

When Gorovitz was being interrogated, Sokatch says:

“Jen told officers that she is a Jew and a Zionist, that she works for NIF to support the Israeli civil society sector.”

Is NIF suggesting that, if she weren’t Jewish and weren’t a Zionist, it would be ok to detain her? Why make an argument that is only used to justify discrimination against others who aren’t considered “kosher?” The rationale she presented to them so that she would be permitted entry only feeds into Israel’s racist policies and practices.

The letter also says:

“Nevertheless, knowing Jen as I do, and knowing all that she has done for Israel over the years — we’re talking about the former CEO of the San Francisco Jewish Federation and a woman who has raised millions of dollars for Israel in her career — this incident drives home the nature of the intimidation that our Israeli brothers and sisters face on a daily basis.”

So, in NIF’s view, raising money for Israel is a reason to be allowed entry into the country?  Those who haven’t raised millions shouldn’t have the same right to entry? Again, this argument only serves to justify Israel’s racist, Islamophobic, and ideologically motivated practices.

And NIF says that this incident drives home what Israelis go through? I wasn’t even sure what that refers to. But how about all those who aren’t Israeli who are denied entry to the country, not to mention the ongoing harassment and intimidation—and worse–that Palestinians experience on a daily basis.

This experience was an opportunity for NIF (which does support some great organizations) to highlight the ways Israel discriminates against and harasses in excruciating ways, Arabs, Muslims, and others who are refused entry into the country as well as having their freedom of movement controlled within Israel. Just recently, a number of Muslims and people of color from the US who were part of a delegation to Palestine were denied entry to Israel. Further, this experience offered an opportunity to stand in real solidarity with those banned (and blocked by walls) because of race, religion, nationality, and refugee status, among other discriminatory reasons.

NIF’s letter describing what happened at the airport reinforced the very system it claimed to be opposing.

Here is New Israel Fund CEO Daniel Sokatch’s letter to supporters:

I’m writing to you from Jerusalem, where we’re preparing for a board meeting that will begin Sunday, to let you know that, as reported by Haaretz, my colleague Jennifer Gorovitz, our VP for Finance, Operations, and Administration, was briefly detained at Ben Gurion airport as she entered Israel tonight.

Jen told officers that she is a Jew and a Zionist, that she works for NIF to support the Israeli civil society sector. She was interrogated about NIF’s work in a very unpleasant way. She endured three rounds of questioning and was released only after NIF’s attorneys started pressuring the border police.

This appears to be an act of political targeting by border security.

It’s no secret that the values that NIF champions are anathema to the current Israeli government. And we all know that under Prime Minister Netanyahu’s leadership the Israeli government has been working to harass and to block funding for some of the very Israeli human rights champions that NIF supports. So it should not be a total surprise to hear that government officials have start intimidating NIF.

Nevertheless, knowing Jen as I do, and knowing all that she has done for Israel over the years — we’re talking about the former CEO of the San Francisco Jewish Federation and a woman who has raised millions of dollars for Israel in her career — this incident drives home the nature of the intimidation that our Israeli brothers and sisters face on a daily basis.

I want to be clear: NIF stands for something deeply meaningful. We believe in a vision of a better Israel — one that is marked by equality and democracy. We will not let this incident — or the ongoing harassment of our partners on the ground — deter us from the work we believe in.

We will not back down.

Daniel Sokatch, CEO
New Israel Fund

About Donna Nevel

Donna Nevel, a community psychologist and educator, is a coordinator of the Participatory Action Research Center (PARCEO). She is a long-time organizer for justice in Palestine/Israel; against Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism; and for a just public education system. She is a founding member of Jews Say No!, the Nakba Education Project, and the Network Against Islamophobia.

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161 Responses

  1. eljay
    February 9, 2017, 2:44 pm

    I want to be clear: NIF stands for something deeply meaningful. We believe in a vision of a better Israel — one that is marked by equality and democracy.

    FAQs:

    … The New Israel Fund was founded more than 30 years ago to actualize the vision of Israel’s Founders, that of a Jewish and democratic state …

    A “better Israel” apparently means a kinder, gentler religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

  2. amigo
    February 9, 2017, 4:05 pm

    The letter never once mentions the Palestinians or their daily harassment.

  3. JLewisDickerson
    February 9, 2017, 4:30 pm

    For the most part, I share Donna Nevel’s sentiment. That said, I think it is only fair to point out that when one considers Sokatch’s targeted audience/recipients, the objectionable arguments might very well have, in their own way, (to use Nevel’s words from above) “highlight[ed] the ways Israel discriminates against and harasses in excruciating ways, Arabs, Muslims, and others who are refused entry into the country as well as having their freedom of movement controlled within Israel.”

    P.S. I have on numerous occasions mentioned the “narcissism of small/minor differences”, and this might be an appropriate opportunity to constructively do so once again.
    The narcissism of small differences is a term created by Sigmund Freud in 1917. The psychological term describes the manner in which our negative feelings are directed at people who resemble us, while we take pride from the “small differences” that separate us from them.

    Sigmund Freud: Narcissism of Small Differences & Judging Othershttp://psychologyorphilosophy.blogspot.com/2012/06/sigmund-freud-narcissism-of-small.html

    ● FROM WIKIPEDIA [Narcissism of small differences]:

    The narcissism of small differences (German: der Narzissmus der kleinen Differenzen) is the phenomenon that it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and that are related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and are ridiculing each other because of sensitiveness to these details of differentiation.[1]

    The term was coined by Sigmund Freud in 1917, based on the earlier work of British anthropologist Ernest Crawley: Crawley, in language which differs only slightly from the current terminology of psychoanalysis, declares that each individual is separated from others by a taboo of personal isolation, this narcissism of minor differences.[2]

    The term appeared in Civilization and Its Discontents (1929–30) in relation to the application of the inborn aggression in man to ethnic (and other) conflicts, a process still considered by Freud, at that point, as a convenient and relatively harmless satisfaction of the inclination to aggression.[3]

    For Lacanians, the concept clearly related to the sphere of the Imaginary: the narcissism of small differences, which situates envy as the decisive element in issues that involve narcissistic image.[4]

    Glen O. Gabbard, the American psychiatrist, suggested that Freud’s narcissism of small differences provides a framework to understand that in a loving relationship, there can be a need to find, and even exaggerate, differences in order to preserve a feeling of separateness and self.[5]

    In terms of postmodernity, consumer culture has been seen as predicated on the narcissism of small differences to achieve a superficial sense of one’s own uniqueness, an ersatz sense of otherness which is only a mask for an underlying uniformity and sameness.[6]

  4. Keith
    February 9, 2017, 5:09 pm

    DANIEL SOKATCH- “We believe in a vision of a better Israel — one that is marked by equality and democracy.”

    Typical liberal hypocrisy and self-deception. Railing against systemic injustice while simultaneously supporting the system which inevitably produces the injustice. “Equality and democracy” in Israel would require that Israel cease to be a Jewish state and become a state of all of its citizens. Is that what this Zionist is calling for? I doubt it. And since a Jewish state cannot be one marked by equality and democracy, then supporting Israel as a Jewish state means that Daniel Sokatch is engaged in posturing to project a caring image. Not that a state of all of its citizens would necessarily result in equality and democracy. Just look at the US!

  5. just
    February 9, 2017, 5:25 pm

    “So Is NIF suggesting that, if she weren’t Jewish and weren’t a Zionist, it would be ok to detain her? Why make an argument that is only used to justify discrimination against others who aren’t considered “kosher?” The rationale she presented to them so that she would be permitted entry only feeds into Israel’s racist policies and practices.”

    Yes.

    I just read about this at The Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/09/israel-detains-new-israel-fund-jennifer-gorovitz

    I was just about to post about this, but you’ve said it better than I did, Donna. Thank you.

    BDS!

  6. broadside
    February 9, 2017, 5:33 pm

    “I’m writing to you from Jerusalem … to let you know that, as reported by Haaretz, my colleague Jennifer Gorovitz, our VP for Finance, was briefly detained at Ben Gurion airport as she entered Israel tonight.”

    later …

    “She endured three rounds of questioning and was released only after NIF’s attorneys started pressuring the border police.”

    Doesn’t sound like briefly detained to me.

    Again, as ever … the chummy tribalness of it all. Zero outrage. The equivalent of Israeli border police escorting squatters off the land — while being pelted with bottles.

  7. pabelmont
    February 9, 2017, 7:35 pm

    So, every country has the right (at least by custom) to police its own borders. The USA does it, none more energetically than Trump, and Israel does it, the birds and the bees do it, (cosi fan tutti). What the hell’s the complaint here? She weas treted a good bit better than many people and apparently not sent home.

    If these guys complain (“everybotty hass gomblaints”) about here treatment without complaining even louder about the treatment of others they are counterfeit human-rights-ists (if the pretend to be human-rights-ists at all).

    • Elizabeth Block
      February 10, 2017, 10:09 am

      Civilized countries do not decide whom to admit and whom to turn away on the basis of their political opinions.

  8. Citizen
    February 10, 2017, 10:02 am

    New Israel Fund vice president detained at Ben-Gurion airport – Israel News – Jerusalem Post http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/New-Israel-Fund-vice-president-detained-at-Ben-Gurion-airport-481051

  9. brwencino
    February 10, 2017, 1:01 pm

    I know Daniel Sokatch from the “old days” ( around 2003-2006) when he was the head of the “Progressive” Jewish Alliance (now defunct) in Los Angeles, CA. He was a PEP (progressive except for Palestine) in those days and he obviously has not changed. In those days, he had a lot of progressives in Los Angeles thinking he was something he was not–he was very good at that. Fortunately, those who are progressive on the Palestinian issue have learned a lot since then. Hi, Daniel, as you will recall, you did not fool me then and you do not fool me now.

    • larick
      February 10, 2017, 7:07 pm

      Brw-encino, you are one-up on me. I also know Daniel from the old days and he Did put one over on me, since I thought you could have a democratic Israel at the time. Even more recently, at a very large gathering here in Los Angeles called by APN he was one of the 2 “expert” speakers in 2014, as the mechanized massacre of Gaza was in full motion, and the Zionist left-liberals convened. Daniel and I exchanged greetings before the proceedings, but when they refused to acknowledged the carnage, I challenged them from the floor, “the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians and killing large numbers right now.” Daniel called me out by name and said, “he always interrupts meetings like that.” Not true, but it is true that he is a “cry and shoot” fraud for “peace”, by which they mean Palestinian disappearance and acquiescence. He makes a nice living at it too, as does the much put upon ex-CEO who “raised millions” for the Colonial settler project. They have much worse coming to them if there is “a Just God”, as Jefferson opined.

  10. echinococcus
    February 10, 2017, 3:49 pm

    Wow, so now we are surprised that Zionists are goddam Zionists?

    These NIF people are Zionists, as their shingle indicates. They dedicate their life (at least, for official cadre like Ms Gorovitz, their working hours) to ensuring that Palestine remains, in part or in whole, firmly in the hands of the invaders –no matter if according to the current government or to another faction. How else is the Zionist pirate entity to “remain Jewish” –“and”, don’t laugh, “democratic”.

    They are traveling to occupied Palestine as part of an effort that includes preventing the Goys and especially the owners of the whole damn place from entering! And we expect them to condemn the treatment inflicted on non-Zionists?

    Some logic.

  11. asherpat
    February 10, 2017, 4:28 pm

    A person questioned for 90 minutes!? Gewald! Nazis! Inhuman! Nakba!

    • eljay
      February 10, 2017, 6:13 pm

      || asherpat: A person questioned for 90 minutes!? Gewald! Nazis! Inhuman! Nakba! ||

      It wasn’t an ordinary person – a regular human being – who was questioned for 90 minutes. It was a Jewish person – a Zionist. You may now proceed with shouting Nazis! Anti-Semitism! “Jew hatred!” Holocaust!

      • asherpat
        February 11, 2017, 2:47 am

        @eljay,

        if the duplicitous organisation calling itself “the Fund for New Israel” is “Zionist”, then Quizzing was a raving patriot. The NIF is a “fifth column” organization, the operation of which can only happen in a liberal, free country such as Israel. Any “mirror” organisation a few km east from where she was detained would have been, at the best, kicked-out within a day. Only in a madly liberal country such as Israel, licensed-traitors such as Breaking the Silence, B’Tselem and their enablers/financiers such as the FfNI (Fund for New Israel – “It’s Israel Jim, but not as we know it”) can operate without their people being murdered within a day. Only in Israel, ask your very own Allison Deger.

      • eljay
        February 11, 2017, 9:41 am

        || asherpat: @eljay,

        if the duplicitous organisation calling itself “the Fund for New Israel” is “Zionist”, then Quizzing was a raving patriot. … ||

        According to its own website, NIF believes in and seeks to “actualize the vision of” a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. I don’t know who Quizzing is, but evidently she was a raving patriot.

        || … The NIF is a “fifth column” organization, the operation of which can only happen in a liberal, free country such as Israel. Any “mirror” organisation a few km east from where she was detained would have been, at the best, kicked-out within a day. Only in a madly liberal country such as Israel, licensed-traitors such as Breaking the Silence, B’Tselem and their enablers/financiers such as the FfNI (Fund for New Israel – “It’s Israel Jim, but not as we know it”) can operate without their people being murdered within a day. … ||

        That’s a lot of words just to express the Zionist mantra “Murderers exist, so it’s OK to rape.”

        Okay, now you can get back to being outraged at Israel for detaining a Zionist Jew.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 2:36 am

        eljay: According to its own website, NIF believes in and seeks to “actualize the vision of” a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”
        —————

        I can’t find that quote at the website –no reference to a “religion-supremacist” state. Can you provide the exact quote/link, thanks.

        ( You have argued in the past that “Jewish state” and “Jewish religion-supremacist State” are NOT necessarily equivalent expressions.)

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 7:31 am

        || Sibiriak: … I can’t find that quote at the website –no reference to a “religion-supremacist” state. Can you provide the exact quote/link, thanks. … ||

        I linked to it in the first comment in this thread:

        … The New Israel Fund was founded more than 30 years ago to actualize the vision of Israel’s Founders, that of a Jewish and democratic state …

        || … ( You have argued in the past that “Jewish state” and “Jewish religion-supremacist State” are NOT necessarily equivalent expressions.) ||

        I don’t recall making that argument. Please link to a post or two of mine that support your assertion.

        I do recall stating that Israel could be a secular and democratic – but culturally Jewish – state, but that’s not the Zionist vision. When they talk about Israel as a “Jewish State”, they invariably mean a religion-supremacist state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 12:05 pm

        eljay:I do recall stating that Israel could be a secular and democratic – but culturally Jewish – state
        ————————

        That’s precisely what I’m referring to. A “Jewish state”, you said, could mean a state which is culturally Jewish but NOT religion-supremacist.

        [eljay:] ”, they invariably mean a religion-supremacist state. “

        According to the NIF they advocate:

        …. a state that ensures complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants. [emphasis added]

        How is “complete equality” for all inhabitants compatible with “religion-supremacism”?

        NIF: We seek to promote equality for Palestinian-Israelis as well as expanding their participation in Israel’s democratic processes and institutions.

        The Palestinian-Israeli community is the main national non-Jewish minority within Israel and is affected directly by the historical Israeli-Arab conflict. Discrimination against this minority is rife in land planning and distribution, education, municipal funding, representation of Palestinian citizens in decision-making bodies, and more…[emphasis added]

        How is fundamental opposition to discrimination compatible with “religion-supremacism”?

        You wrote previously:

        [eljay:]If Israel were to grant equality to non-Jews, it would immediately cease to be a supremacist “Jewish State”. [emphasis added]

        http://mondoweiss.net/2015/06/practicing-standard-countries/

        If NIF supports full equality for non-Jews then, given your own argument, how can they be supporting a religion-supremacist state?

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 12:51 pm

        Follow the money:

        Zochrot “Right of Return Event”- EU and NIF Funded Participants

        On March 21-22, 2016, the Israeli NGO Zochrot will hold “The Third International Conference on the Return of Palestinian Refugees” in Tel Aviv. The two day event will include speakers from NGOs and academia, all promoting a Palestinian “right of return.” This so-called “right” including multiple generations has no basis in international law, is a primary obstacle to peace, and equivalent to calling for the elimination of Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people.

        […]The program includes fringe individuals involved in deligitimization campaigns against Israel, such as Ilan Pappe, Uri Davis, and Daphne Golan.

        Many of these individuals are affiliated with NGOs funded by the EU, European governments, and the New Israel Fund (NIF). [emphasis added]

        http://www.ngo-monitor.org/reports/zochrot-right-of-return-event-eu-and-nif-funded-participants/

        ————

        New Israel Fund Supports Groups that Hurt the Jewish State

        […]The New Israel Fund (NIF), which according to recent financial reports granted nearly $27 million to left-wing and progressive NGOs in Israel, systematically works to destabilize Israel. This organization claims to be supportive of Israel and indeed funds some useful and humanistic causes in Israel. However, mixed in alongside projects for women’s rights, LGBT issues and minority causes, there are also some of the most underhanded projects to chip away at the foundations of the State of Israel.

        […]Another recipient of NIF money was the Coalition of Women for Peace, which demands a boycott of all things Israeli, and has established a well-oiled database called “Who Profits” that targets Israeli businesses. NIF’s financial records indicate that it granted $109,615 to Breaking the Silence, which tours campuses accusing Israel of war crimes; $255,477 to B’Tselem, which provides cameras to groups that harass Israeli soldiers hoping to videotape the reaction and harm Israel’s image worldwide; and $209,161 to Adalah, which works to get Israel prosecuted in foreign jurisdictions and erase Israel’s Jewish identity. These three groups are among many NIF grantees that operate at the front line of anti-Israel agitation.

        In July 2014, 10 NIF grantees launched a campaign to convince the UN Human Rights Council that Israel must be brought to justice for war crimes and targeting of civilians. The groups – Adalah, Al Tufula Center, Aswat, Baladna, I’lam Media Center, Kayan Feminist Organization, Mada al-Carmel, Mossawa Center, The Regional Council for the Unrecognized Villages in the Negev – are tied closely to NIF’s giving philosophy. [emphasis added]

        http://observer.com/2014/11/new-israel-fund-supports-groups-that-hurt-the-jewish-state/
        ————————-

        Candidly Speaking: The two faces of the New Israel Fund”

        It is a somber reflection on the naivety of well-intended Jewish philanthropists that they continue donating vast amounts of money to Israel’s largest NGO, the New Israel Fund (NIF). They do so despite repeated documented exposures demonstrating that this body is sponsoring anti-Zionist, pro-Palestinian and post- Zionist organizations, committed to undermining the Jewish state and promoting the narrative of the Palestinians as victims and Israelis as oppressors.

        Recently, yet another bombshell discrediting this organization was revealed by Wikileaks. A confidential cable quoted a conversation between officials at the Tel Aviv US embassy and NIF associate director Hedva Radanovitz, who until last year controlled the NIF distribution of grants to 350 NGOs totaling $18 million per annum. She told embassy personnel that “she believed that in 100 years, Israel would be majority Arab and that the disappearance of the Jewish state would not be the tragedy that Israelis fear since it would become more democratic.”

        Radanovitz was in fact, rationalizing why the NIF has and continues to provide millions of dollars to groups supporting the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state.

        Alma Biblash, the Executive Director of the Human Rights Defenders Fund (HRDF) an organization to which the NIF authorized grants worth $332,625 from 2011-2013, has called Israel “racist,” and “murderous,” and described the country as a “temporary Jewish apartheid state.” Ms. Biblash supports Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaigns and promotes the Palestinian ‘right of return,meaning the elimination of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. [emphasis added]

        […] Nearly $500,000 was provided to Adalah, a group which contributed to and campaigned for the Goldstone report, urged foreign governments to “reevaluate their relationship with Israel,” described Israel as “a colonial enterprise promoting apartheid,” called for implementing the Palestinian right of return to Israel, provided affidavits to Spanish courts in order to charge Israeli officials with war crimes, and defended Hizbullah spy Amir Makhoul as a “human rights defender.” It would surely be difficult to visualize any Zionist or remotely pro-Israeli body providing funds to an organization committed to such objectives.

        Mada al-Carmel, another recipient of NIF funds, engages in anti-Israeli agitation and openly repudiates the legitimacy of the Jewish state.

        NIF continued to fund the Coalition of Women for Peace (CWP), a leader of the campaign expressly promoting global “boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel.” CWP also organizes events for Israel apartheid week.

        In 2010, NIF tripled the funding for “Breaking the Silence,”

        http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Candidly-Speaking-The-two-faces-of-the-New-Israel-Fund

        ————————————-
        New Israel Fund Is ‘All About Conflict’

        […]Shoval went on to describe a world of subversion that sometimes appears to contradict itself, but is constant about one thing – seeking to topple Israel’s leadership.

        “On the one hand,” he elaborated, “it funds radical organizations that are the spearhead of delegitimization, like B’tselem, Adalah, Machsom Watch, Breaking the Silence and a long list of other groups that operate against Israel and besmirch us as war criminals in the world’s eyes – and this includes a statement by the new president, who compared Israel and Iran in a Peace Now conference last week, when she said that just as we boycott Iran, others have the right to boycott Israel.

        “That is the visible and upsetting level which is familiar in the Israeli discourse. In every delegitimization ‘bomb’, we will find the NIF’s fingerprint, directly or indirectly,” Shoval elucidated.

        A deeper level of the NIF’s activity is that it operates in a double manner vis-a-vis every government ministry,” Shoval went on. “On the one hand, it has organizations that challenge the government ministry and on the other hand it has organizations that work within the ministry in cooperation, so that the right hand is cooperating with the left hand. I will give an example: we remember the social protest that the NIF contributed to with funds, tents, etc. The demand was to solve the crisis regarding the price of housing. The state established a committee, and the ones who opposed the committee were ‘green’ organizations which are funded by the NIF.

        “In other words, there is a system here, which is intended to create a crisis and to break apart Israeli society, from a collective to several groups, each of which fights for its interests against the other groups. The purpose is not a solution to the housing crisis in Israel but to create a regime crisis in Israel. The idea is regime change, and the more crises the better. As far as they are concerned, the Zionist regime is the mother of all evils. The Jewish regime must be replaced with ‘a state of all its citizens.” [emphasis added]

        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/199057

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 2:06 pm

        || Sibiriak: … That’s precisely what I’m referring to. A “Jewish state”, you said, could mean a state which is culturally Jewish but NOT religion-supremacist. … ||

        I’m pretty sure I have said that Israel could be a secular and democratic but culturally-Jewish state. I don’t believe I have ever said that the “Jewish State” as envisioned and realized by Zionists is anything other than a religion-supremacist construct.

        But perhaps I did say that and I just don’t recall. Please quote (or post a link to) a comment of mine in which I did say that. Thanks.

        || … If NIF supports full equality for non-Jews then, given your own argument, how can they be supporting a religion-supremacist state? ||

        Ask any of the Zionists here. They’ll be happy to tell you all about equality and even “peace” in Israel, but always in the context of Israel as a “Jewish State” primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

      • echinococcus
        February 13, 2017, 2:23 pm

        Sibiriak,

        In summary, the Zionists currently in power, ie the “bad cops” who talk a lot about what they will do, don’t like the NIF.

        The Zionists who have been in charge of the invasion, the Nakba, the first 4 wars of aggression, etc. and continue to make plans to keep all Palestine by pretending to continue talking do like the NIF.

        Where the hell is the difference, please?

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 2:26 pm

        eljay: I don’t believe I have ever said that the “Jewish State” as envisioned and realized by Zionists is anything other than a religion-supremacist construct.
        ——————

        But we are discussing NIF, not other Zionists who have supported a “religion-supremacist construct.”

        If NIF supports a “religion-supremacist construct”, then you should be able to demonstrate that fact with NIF’s own words and actions.

        But apparently you are unable to do that.

        So, you resort to the argument: other Zionists have believed X, so NIF must believe X.

        || … If NIF supports full equality for non-Jews then, given your own argument, how can they be supporting a religion-supremacist state? ||

        Ask any of the Zionists here. …

        But we are not discussing the Zionists here. We are discussing NIF.

        It’s a silly argument to say that NIF must share the same views as Zionists here.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 3:04 pm

        echinococcus: Where the hell is the difference, please?
        ——————

        The difference is: the NIF —again, follow the money– is supporting organizations that are delegitimizing Israel and fighting for Palestinian rights.

        But then again, you do not support the BDS movement, Adalah, B’Tselem, the Coalition of Women for Peace, Breaking the Silence, Al Tufula Center, Aswat, Baladna, , Mada al-Carmel, Mossawa Center, The Regional Council for the Unrecognized Villages in the Negev, or any other such groups.

        Or do you?

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 3:10 pm

        || Sibiriak: But we are discussing NIF, not other Zionists who have supported a “religion-supremacist construct.” If NIF supports a “religion-supremacist construct”, then you should be able to demonstrate that fact with NIF’s own words and actions. But apparently you are unable to do that. … ||

        According to the NIF website: “The New Israel Fund was founded more than 30 years ago to actualize the vision of Israel’s Founders, that of a Jewish and democratic state … “

        According to NIF’s CEO: “In the end, what is most Jewish about the Jewish state is that it was founded to be a state for the Jews … That founding vision, enshrined in Israel’s Declaration of Independence, referred to the multilayered connection that the Jewish people has always had to Israel, to the arc of Jewish history that necessitated the creation of a state for the Jews … “

        Also: “In a charged conversation with Makor Rishon, the International Director of the New Israel Fund, Daniel Sokatch, rebuffs the criticism against his organization: ‘They say that we are anti-Zionist. It’s a mistake, we want what’s best for Israel’. …

        Perhaps they exist, but I couldn’t find any statements by the NIF where they denounce the “Law of Return”.

        || … We are discussing NIF. It’s a silly argument to say that NIF must share the same views as Zionists here. ||

        Zionists have varying opinions but all Zionists – including the NIF, as far as I can tell – support the existence of Israel as a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

        I’m happy to be proven wrong.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 4:12 pm

        @eljay:

        Despite your best efforts, you still haven’t produced a single NIF quote that comes close to calling for a “religious-supremacist” state in as much of Palestine “as possible.”

        “The New Israel Fund was founded more than 30 years ago to actualize the vision of Israel’s Founders, that of a Jewish and democratic state … “

        Nothing about “religion-supremacist” state or as much of Palestine as possible. As YOU stated, “Jewish” could mean culturally Jewish. As YOU stated, equal rights for all Israelis means the end of Jewish supremacism. NIF supports equal rights for all Israelis. You and NIF are in agreement there.

        “A state for Jews” dpesn’t have to be a religion-supremacist one. It could be a democratic state that has a place for Jews and Jewish culture, along with other groups and other cultures. You made that argument yourself.

        “They say that we are anti-Zionist. It’s a mistake, we want what’s best for Israel’.

        Equal rights for all citizens could be best for all Israel. And indicated in a previous post, NIF has funded many individuals and groups that advocate a Palestinian right of return.

        In any case, their actions speak louder than words. Obviously, they have not put out a radical anti-Zionist manifesto. That could well be a very smart political move.

        Claiming to be “Zionist”, but simultaneously re-defining “Zionism”, has its strategic advantages. Not for everyone, of course. But it’s clearly pissing off a lot of Zionists who have no interest in re-definitions.

        That should tell you a lot.

        Apparently, you believe that NIF is doing a lot of positive things, despite their ideological shortcomings, as are a number of other organizations and individulas NIF supports.

        Fair enough.

        You have said Israel needs to be a state for all its citizens. NIF is at least moving strongly in that direction, if imperfectly.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 4:33 pm

        eljay: I couldn’t find any statements by the NIF where they denounce the “Law of Return”
        ——————

        Actions vs words. You are who you support. NIF has given substantial sums to Adalah, and Adalah has consistently “denounced” the “Law of Return.”

        https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/536
        https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/537

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 5:11 pm

        Sibiriak, you’re tiring me out with your yonah- and Mikhael-like level of verbosity, so I’ll just say this and then bow out:

        According to quotes I’ve provided, NIF is a Zionist organization that does many good things in order to secure Israel’s future as a state primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews. That’s not a culturally-Jewish state, that’s a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        NIF is content for this “Jewish State” to exist is some part of Palestine. How ever much territory that ends up being is “as much as possible” of Palestine.

        I hope I’m wrong but at this time I don’t see that I am. Thanks for the conversation. :-)

      • echinococcus
        February 13, 2017, 9:56 pm

        Sibiriak,

        No, I don’t support any of that being fed by Zionist money! That’s the main mechanism by which organizations supposed to help against Zionist invasion and occupation are controlled by the enemy, the other one being their operating without clandestinity under the occupation.

        We even know the huge damage inflicted by Zionist money and tribalist infiltration in the support organizations abroad.

        This is a Zionist organization, a “liberal” one, i.e. intending to put enough lipstick on the sam stinking pig –enough to give a good pretext to Western governments for continuing to support invasion and theft.

        As for “delegitimation”, that means asserting the stark fact that Zionist invaders have no right to be anywhere in Palestine. Not trying to justify Zionist presence in Palestine, which is what these groups do. They are often very valuable to people caught in the daily struggle, but humanitarian organizations can just as well be financed by the Pope or the Communist Internationale or the Martian Confederation. Financing by the enemy means something precise.

      • eljay
        February 14, 2017, 7:13 am

        || eljay: Sibiriak, you’re tiring me out with your yonah- and Mikhael-like level of verbosity … ||

        Sibiriak, upon reflection I realize that you did not deserve this cheap shot. I apologize for having made it.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 11:36 am

        For goodness sake, “eljay”, when are you going to understand that the only significance of the original partition and Israel Statehood declaration is the fact that Israel will not, and cannot, adhere to it.!! In fact, Israel would fight to avoid accepting it! That’s why it is significant.
        Once again, don’t mistake the “tar baby” (original partition) for the “briar patch”.

  12. echinococcus
    February 10, 2017, 5:15 pm

    Exactly. Typical Zionist-on-Zionist bellyaching. They can’t just shut the hell up and stay out of other people’s land.

  13. Talkback
    February 10, 2017, 6:24 pm

    “… one that is marked by equality …”

    In Israel that’s probably called “Equality terrorism” as it is a threat to a “Jewish and democratic” state.

  14. Katie Miranda
    February 10, 2017, 7:38 pm

    90 minutes ?

    Can I send a bouquet of sad violins to Jennifer ?
    I was regularly detained from 4-12 hours and had my possessions confiscated and exploded by Israeli border control.

    Not to mention the abuse and denial of entry that Palestinians and Muslims face.

    If you’re a Zionist raising millions of dollars for Israel then I have no sympathy.

    • just
      February 13, 2017, 8:27 am

      Well said, Katie!

      New opinion piece by Gorovitz:

      “American Jews Are New Target of Israel’s Unprecedented Escalation Against Civil Society

      New Israel Fund VP: Given Netanyahu’s repression of dissent, perhaps I shouldn’t have been surprised that Israel’s border control considered me a ‘national security risk’.

      There’s nothing exciting about being stopped at the border entering Israel. There’s no dramatic speech, no hopping over barriers like the little boy in “Love, Actually” did.

      In real life it’s depressing, dehumanizing and rather frightening. When I was questioned at passport control, interrogated three times and finally allowed to enter Israel after an hour and a half of uncertainty, I felt relief. But I was also angry and heartbroken, both personally and professionally – and I still am.

      My privilege as a Jew means I never imagined that Israel could or would deny me entrance. My parents taught me that Israel is a safe place and the homeland of all Jews. I’ve spent my career as a leader in the American Jewish community, including my current position as a vice president of the New Israel Fund. All these factors kept me from truly empathizing with the experience of uncertainty faced by every Palestinian, Arab, Muslim and many other non-Jews entering or leaving Israel.

      And so I was not prepared for a passport control officer to sneer at my explanation that the New Israel Fund (and Shatil) support civil society: “You mean Palestinian civil society.” Or to sardonically reject my self-definition as a Zionist. Or another officer interrogating me from a cheat-sheet with “BDS” written on it in prominent letters, despite the fact that NIF doesn’t support or fund the global BDS movement. After multiple interrogations focusing on NIF’s work, it became clear that I had been detained for political reasons – no other explanation fit.”

      read more: http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.771416

      Seriously pathetic and beyond belief. At least she acknowledges her “privilege as a Jew” and a Zionist, though.

      Yep~ send her the bouquet… she needs it.

  15. [email protected]
    February 10, 2017, 7:43 pm

    I really do feel for Gorovitz here. Her plight is almost unbearable. Here, having raised millions of dollars for apartheid and a liberal candy coating for racial supremacy, she was questioned and detained for a good 90 minutes. This is 2017 folks, and most readers are here in America. Gone are the days where white nationalists had to hide in the closet and have political elites candy coat their hate. In America today, we like our racism straight and neat. So do the Israelis, let’s applaud that. No apologies or lies when they remove people or destroy homes. No crying how much they love Arabs and how we hate to have to throw them out for their racially exclusive housing project. This is the New Israel, and well the New Israel Fund is really the Old Israel where brute force just wore a white silk glove. After spending decades making the ugly look good, she was made to feel unwelcome by her fellow racists. Sad.

  16. echinococcus
    February 11, 2017, 1:02 am

    This raises another question: what passport was this person using for her illegal entry to Palestine?

    If even some of the committed Zionists who professionally work to solidify and perfect the invasion and occupation of Palestine, like Gorovitz, don’t take up Israelian citizenship, this would mean that, deep down, they don’t really believe that the Zionist entity is the best thing that happened to mankind since sliced bread. They know that belonging to the Zionist entity is fraught with major problems.

    If she was traveling as an Israelian citizen, though, all this is non-news; it falls under internal affairs.

    • gamal
      February 14, 2017, 11:06 am

      “And while we are waiting for the refugees to conform, they are causing a lot of trouble in the process of learning that an unaccompanied woman is not asking to be raped”

      Jill Meagher and Adrian Ernest Bailey?

      I was on that street in Brunswick that night in Melbourne in the company of some Sudanese and Lebanese boys all Muslim some refugees our behavior was exemplary towards all our Australian overlords and Ladies.

      • gamal
        February 15, 2017, 9:22 am

        also perhaps a little skepticism is in order, anyone recall the “baa baa green sheep” controversy in the UK, also without foundation.

        “Newspaper reports of a mass sexual-assault by refugees and migrants in Frankfurt, Germany, on News Years Eve were ‘completely made up’ it has emerged.

        The claims were made just days ago in a right-wing German tabloid and repeated in the Daily Express in the UK.

        The Daily Express alleged that a ‘mass sex attack’ by over 900 drunk refugees led to women being sexually harassed.

        It even had the same quotes as the German tabloid (Bild) that first run the false story:”

        https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/02/uk-tabloid-reports-of-sexual-assault-by-refugees-in-frankfurt-were-completely-made-up/

      • RoHa
        February 15, 2017, 3:34 pm

        A great deal of scepticism is in order where the Daily Express is concerned. Nonetheless there are a large number of reports from a number of different countries. It is difficult to avoid thinking that there may be some truth in some of them.

  17. AddictionMyth
    February 11, 2017, 9:56 am

    “which does support some great organizations”

    Don’t be so sure about that. Electronic Intifada does good work, but they are also a Russian front as is obvious by their silence on Assad. Also democracy is great but even better is human rights and free speech. In other words, NIF is probably Bolshie-Supremacist as opposed to Jew Supremacist, and this infighting is a very good sign – the Supremacist movements are starting to splinter. Pop the popcorn, kds.

    • Keith
      February 11, 2017, 10:59 am

      ADDICTIONMYTH- “Electronic Intifada does good work, but they are also a Russian front as is obvious by their silence on Assad.”

      So, any organization which doesn’t jump on the imperial anti-Assad demonization bandwagon is obviously a Russian front – by definition. Jeez, I guess that my opposition to the imperial destabilization of Syria makes me a Putin puppet! The return of red-baiting!

      • Mooser
        February 11, 2017, 1:32 pm

        Hey, “Addictionmyth” (oh, this guy is a riot, a real funnyman) how are the “Bolsheviks” doing these days in Russia?

        And up til now, the Jew-Bolshie-Supremacist movements were all cozy together? Seems sort of a shame, I hate breakups.

      • RoHa
        February 11, 2017, 9:47 pm

        Keith, no point trying to deny it. We’ve long had you pegged as an unreconstructed Soviet mole, and we love you for it.

        The KBG colonel’s uniform in your closet might have been swapped for an FSB one by now, but you are still faithful to the cause. No doubt Putin will soon give you another well-deserved medal for your service.

        Let us know when it does, and we will give you a cheer.

      • RoHa
        February 12, 2017, 8:31 am

        Let us know when he does.

        (I’m travelling now, so these comments are being posted from airports.)

      • Keith
        February 12, 2017, 4:51 pm

        ROHA- “The KBG colonel’s uniform in your closet….”

        Colonel? I’ve been promoted? Why wasn’t I informed? Going from captain to colonel is a big jump. Think I’ll head down to the Officer’s Club and party hearty.

        Getting back to the anti-Trump hysteria, how is it possible that these “liberals” can’t understand that by focusing exclusively on Trump they are ignoring the policies themselves? If all you do is get rid of Trump, things aren’t going to be hunky dory. How can they protest for refugees without protesting against the empire creating these same refugees? How can these glass ceiling “feminists” protest against Trump and not protest for the right of Third World women (and children) not to be bombed by US/NATO? People being manipulated who want to be manipulated. Group solidarity. Under neoliberalism, “liberal” is nothing more than a label, an identifier. No crumbs left to distribute, only hollow words. And the ungrateful proletariat transformed into a basket of undesirables. We live in interesting times. We live in weird times. Paul Craig Roberts to the left of the left. More correctly, the left to the right of the right.

      • RoHa
        February 13, 2017, 11:16 am

        “How can these glass ceiling “feminists” protest against Trump and not protest for the right of Third World women (and children) not to be bombed by US/NATO? ”

        Perhaps they think that the bombs will break some of the glass ceilings.

        I find an apparent inconsistency between feminism and support for Muslim refugees. Many of the male Muslim refugees seem to have no interest in supporting women’s rights. Allowing them into a country is detrimental to the rights of the women of that country, and does nothing to raise the status of the Muslim women refugees. *

        Far better to stop the wars. At least the Muslim women would not be at the mercy of the traffickers.

        (*I suspect the mods do lot like me saying this. The fallacy of the superior virtue of the oppressed is seductive.)

      • Mooser
        February 13, 2017, 12:34 pm

        “I find an apparent inconsistency between feminism and support for Muslim refugees. Many of the male Muslim refugees seem to have no interest in supporting women’s rights”

        And naturally, since some Muslim men don’t understand women’s rights as people in the US, we all must immediately conform to the ideas of a few immigrants? I tend to think it’ll go the other way.

        Gee, sound’s like somebody is looking desperately for a reason to chuck women’s rights. But really “the Muslim immigrants made me do it” is a really cheap excuse.

      • Mooser
        February 13, 2017, 12:40 pm

        I suspect the mods do lot like me saying this.

        Do lot remember me!

      • Keith
        February 13, 2017, 5:20 pm

        ROHA- “Far better to stop the wars.”

        That is exactly correct! Prior to the destruction of Afghanistan, RAWA (the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan) begged the US not to bomb the country or otherwise interfere. Did US “glass ceiling feminists” rally to their support? Hell no! Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc, women had it much better prior to the imperial intervention. That is why US feminists are imperial feminists, eager to accept the White Woman’s Burden. In the US, the “feminist” movement is run by white upper middle class women of privilege more concerned with class solidarity than supporting their less fortunate sisters. Why else stand tough on abortion rights while supporting Democrat neoliberalism and the terrible consequences for women and children that policy causes? And who did more to shred the social safety net than Hill and Bill? Or incarcerate people of color in spite of the negative consequences for non-white, non-elite women? And while my heart goes out to the refugees we created, I don’t disdain the “basket of deplorables” which neoliberalism created.

      • RoHa
        February 14, 2017, 4:39 am

        “we all must immediately conform to the ideas of a few immigrants? I tend to think it’ll go the other way. ”

        British, European, and Australian experience shows that it often doesn’t. The immigrants often form ” communities” which maintain the oppression of the country of origin.

        And while we are waiting for the refugees to conform, they are causing a lot of trouble in the process of learning that an unaccompanied woman is not asking to be raped.

      • RoHa
        February 14, 2017, 4:43 am

        Lot was such a dodgy character that I would rather he he didn’t remember me.

        I’m sleep deprived, jet lagged, and cold. Be prepared for a few more typos.

      • RoHa
        February 14, 2017, 4:44 am

        Keith, one would think that Lysistrata had no daughters.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 2:16 pm

        “Far better to stop the wars.”

        Well, you can’t stop the wars by changing the good old American expression “In like Flynn”
        to “Out like Flynn”. All that does is confuse the sows and wind the seed.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 2:36 pm

        “I’m sleep deprived, jet lagged, and cold. Be prepared for a few more typos.”

        Nah! Just take a breath before you hit “send” and read the comment over.
        A quick look will alert you to any necessary corrections.

      • RoHa
        February 15, 2017, 2:52 am

        I have to read as well as write? That’s too great a task under my current conditions.

  18. jon s
    February 12, 2017, 4:32 pm

    The NIF does admirable work, for which it deserves nothing but praise from all those for whom promoting peace democracy and social justice is important.
    See here:
    http://www.nif.org/

    These are the causes and organizations it supports:
    http://www.nif.org/what-we-do/grantmaking/grantees/

    • eljay
      February 12, 2017, 6:15 pm

      || jon s: The NIF does admirable work, for which it deserves nothing but praise from all those for whom promoting peace democracy and social justice is important. … ||

      The NIF also supports Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine, for which it deserves nothing but condemnation from all those for whom justice, accountability and equality are important.

      Tell you what: I’ll praise the NIF’s admirable work and you condemn its selective support for Jewish supremacism. Deal?

      • Mooser
        February 12, 2017, 7:44 pm

        “eljay” , I always wonder, does “jon s” sit down at the keyboard and say “today is my day! Today all the history will be forgotten, all the facts disappear, and my bullshit will carry the day”

        Or does he just forget?

      • eljay
        February 12, 2017, 8:39 pm

        || Mooser @ February 12, 2017, 7:44 pm ||

        The only thing I know for sure about Zionists is that they think they’re entitled to do evil. Beyond that, the Zionist mind is a mystery.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 2:17 am

        eljay: The NIF also supports Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine…
        —————————

        Where does the NIF express support for a Jewish religion-supremacist state with maximum territorial extension in Palestine? Can you provide a quote or link? Some concrete details to strengthen your argument. Thanks.

      • echinococcus
        February 13, 2017, 4:18 am

        Nah, John S is so nice he’s honest. He writes God’s own truth as he sees it and expects all to see it, too. Our cynical refusal to acknowledge the Ziofacts makes him sick.
        Conclusion: continue making him sick.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 13, 2017, 5:29 am

        Mooser

        I imagine he assumes everyone sees the world as he does.
        That is how Groupthink works.
        He prolly doesn’t even think about it.
        Anyone who disagrees must be misinformed as well as rabidly anti Semitic.

        “Erdan added that he hoped that the football players would get “a balanced picture of Israel, the opposite from the false incitement campaign that is being waged against Israel around the world.” According to the Times of Israel, Tourism Minister Yariv Levin also commented publicly on the trip, saying that he was certain the players would return home as “ambassadors of goodwill for Israel.”

        Not long afterwards, Seattle Seahawks defensive end Michael Bennett dramatically signaled he was pulling out of the trip by tweeting a photograph of Martin Luther King Jr. with the caption “I’m not going to Israel.”

        read more: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.771219

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 7:35 am

        || Sibiriak: Where does the NIF express support for a Jewish religion-supremacist state with maximum territorial extension in Palestine? Can you provide a quote or link? Some concrete details to strengthen your argument. Thanks. ||

        I linked to it in the first comment in this thread:

        … The New Israel Fund was founded more than 30 years ago to actualize the vision of Israel’s Founders, that of a Jewish and democratic state …

        As you know – and I know you know this:
        – Zionism is … the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel.
        – The “Land of Israel” extends far beyond Israel’s / Partition borders.

      • echinococcus
        February 13, 2017, 9:16 am

        I wish people would finally stop using nonsense words like “religion-supremacist” about Zionism and the Zionist entity.

        At no time since the start of Zionism has there ever been a religious condition or test; the founders and leaders themselves were not religious until recently. Zionism and its system are very clearly non-religious, as their definition of “Jewish” is exclusively tied to accident of birth.

        Religion is not a characteristic at birth; it is a belief system, hence acquired. The supremacist system of Zionism is entirely based on being born “Jewish”, no matter one’s effective religion, so it is entirely racial according to the categories used among the laypeople: race, here, does not have to correspond to an objective concept (which would be impossible to establish scientifically.) The Zionist entity is a strictly racial supremacist dictatorship.

        Some minor theocratic features, like the absence of civil marriage, are there only to be able to use the old Ottoman “millet”-based legislation to more effectively exclude and disempower the Goys. The occasional accepted conversions that add up to a negligible number are useful for propaganda. The ban on persons racially defined “Jewish” converting *officially* is also to maintain the Millet system. There is no religious supremacy.

        Continuing the stubborn use of the adjective “religious-supremacist” is no help to the enemies of Zionism.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 9:48 am

        eljay: linked to it in the first comment in this thread:

        … The New Israel Fund was founded more than 30 years ago to actualize the vision of Israel’s Founders, that of a Jewish and democratic state …
        —————–

        There’s nothing in THAT statement that indicates support for “Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine .

        NIF follows international law in recognizing that Israel is an OCCUPIER of Palestinian territory.

        If NIF really supported the idea of a supremacist Jewish State “ in as much as possible of Palestine”, they they would be rejecting the very notion of “occupied Palestinian terrirtory” and they would be advocating Israeli settlement and annexation of WB territory. like many Israeli Zionists are doing. They are NOT doing that.

        And clearly, many Zionists are not too happy about NIF’s activities:

        “The New Israel Fund encourages anti-Israel acts”

        […]this rise in American pressure on Israel over the settlements is precisely the focus of the steady work during the past decade of left-wing extremist organizations, led by the New York-based New Israel Fund (NIF) which funnels $30 million annually to organizations that support BDS and actively oppose the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).

        NIF has been clamoring against the State of Israel, and has established itself as a funder of many groups that engage in anti-Israel activities. Whether it is Adalah promoting lawfare, B’Tselem promoting Israel as an apartheid state, HaMoked providing flawed and erroneous data toward the damaging and now debunked Goldstone report, or Breaking the Silence issuing edited testimonies from soldiers about the 2014 Gaza operation, concluding Israel intentionally targeted non-combatants, NIF’s money and support is at the center. [emphasis added]

        http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/267748-the-new-israel-fund-encourages-anti-israel-acts

        —————-

        The criticism of NIF is valid, but that doesn’t mean they are not doing anything positive.

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 10:16 am

        || Sibiriak: … There’s nothing in THAT statement that indicates support for “Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine . … ||

        As indicated the “vision of Israel’s Founders” is of a “Jewish State” (a religion-supremacist construct) in the “Land of Israel” (which extends far beyond Israel’s / Partition borders).

        || … If NIF really supported the idea of a supremacist Jewish State “ in as much as possible of Palestine”, they they would be rejecting the very notion of “occupied Palestinian terrirtory” and they would be advocating Israeli settlement and annexation of WB territory. … ||

        Not necessarily. “As much as possible” is exactly that: As much as possible. If the most they can get for a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” is ’67 borders (w/ or w/o land swaps), then that’s “as much as possible”.

        || … The criticism of NIF is valid, but that doesn’t mean they are not doing anything positive. ||

        Who said they’re not doing anything positive? I certainly didn’t say that.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 10:37 am

        eljay: If the most they can get for a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” is ’67 borders (w/ or w/o land swaps), then that’s “as much as possible”
        ——————-

        But NIF is not advocating “as much as possible”. That would mean they would want to take more if they could get it. There is no indication of that.

        Clearly, there ARE those who advocate “as much as possible” and THEY are going full steam ahead with settlements and annexation. NIF opposes that “as much as possible” agenda.

        Surely you can recognize the difference between those who advocate maximal territorial expansion and those, like NIF, who advocate adherence to international law and call for an end to the occupation of internationally recognized Palestinian territory???

        It’s perfectly reasonable to oppose that NIF position, but it’s not reasonable to misrepresent it.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 10:49 am

        eljay: Who said they’re not doing anything positive? I certainly didn’t say that.
        ——————

        What are they doing that is positive?

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 11:43 am

        || Sibiriak: … What are they doing that is positive? ||

        See your post of February 13, 2017, 9:48 am.

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 11:56 am

        || Sibiriak: … But NIF is not advocating “as much as possible”. That would mean they would want to take more if they could get it. There is no indication of that. … ||

        If NIF currently believes that Israel should not be entitled to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in anything more than (for example) ’67 borders + W. Jerusalem, then that’s “as much as possible” for NIF. I have no idea what NIF’s position might be under different circumstances.

        || … It’s perfectly reasonable to oppose that NIF position, but it’s not reasonable to misrepresent it. ||

        I haven’t misrepresented NIF’s position. You’re misreading misrepresentation into it.

      • jon s
        February 13, 2017, 3:09 pm

        eljay, I believe in equal rights for all, regardless of religion, nationality, race, gender, whatever. So, naturally, I condemn any form of supremacism. And I don’t see the NIF supporting Jewish – or any other- supremacism.

      • Sibiriak
        February 13, 2017, 3:14 pm

        eljay: If NIF currently believes that Israel should not be entitled to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in anything more than (for example) ’67 borders + W. Jerusalem
        ————-

        But that’s not what NIF believes, and you shown no evidence that it is. They’ve never stated that Israel should be entitled to exist as a “religion-supremacist state” in ’67 borders or any other borders.

        If they have, please quote them verbatim expressing that notion and I will gladly stand corrected.

        I haven’t misrepresented NIF’s position

        Yes you have. You claimed that NIF seeks to:

        “actualize the vision of” a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        You quote “actualize the vision of” and you quote “Jewish state”– but you stick your own words, “religion-supremacist” in the middle of those two quotes. Even though you have stated elsewhere that “Jewish state” doesn’t necessarily mean a “religion-supremacist” state.

        You need to demonstrate that for NIF “Jewsh State” means “Jewish-supremacist” state, not simply a culturally Jewish state.

        (If you want to criticize them for supporting a democratic state with a strong Jewish culture alongside other cultures, that would be fair enough.)

        But you have to stick your own words in because nowhere does NIF advocate for a “religion-supremacist” state.

        Then you claim that they seek a “religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine. But NIF , apart from not seeking a “religion-supremacist state”, does NOT seek maximal territorial expansion either. That’s a mispresentation.

        They reject the completely possible expansion of settlements and the completely possible further annexation of territory. They reject the completely possible continuation of the Occupation and the completely possible apartheid regime.

        But faced with that fact, you argue that whatever it is they seek, however limited, however short of “as much as possible” — it still means “as much as possible”!!

      • eljay
        February 13, 2017, 3:26 pm

        || Sibiriak: … But that’s not what NIF believes, and you shown no evidence that it is. They’ve never stated that Israel should be entitled to exist as a “religion-supremacist state” in ’67 borders or any other borders. If they have, please quote them verbatim expressing that notion and I will gladly stand corrected. … ||

        I never claimed they want ’67 borders. That was simply an example of “as much as possible”.

        || … Yes you have. You claimed that NIF seeks to: “actualize the vision of” a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”. You quote “actualize the vision of” and you quote “Jewish state”– but you stick your own words, “religion-supremacist” in the middle of those two quotes. Even though you have stated elsewhere that “Jewish state” doesn’t necessarily mean a “religion-supremacist” state. … ||

        A culturally-Jewish Israel is an Israel whose primary cultural influences are Jewish. As far as I can tell, NIF – like all Zionists – believes in an Israel that is primarily of and for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews.

        That’s not a culturally-Jewish Israel – that’s a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” because (and I know you know this because I’ve said it to you before) Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity that can only be acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        This is all strictly in my most humble opinion. Your mileage may vary.

        || … You need to demonstrate that for NIF “Jewsh State” means “Jewish-supremacist” state … ||

        Please see my comment of February 13, 2017, 3:10 pm.

      • Mooser
        February 13, 2017, 4:29 pm

        “Jewish is fundamentally a religion-based identity that can only be acquired by: – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.”

        Whoa, “eljay” don’t give it away, gratis! Doesn’t matter, does it, if a person has been descended from generations of Jews.
        Each new Jew has to be converted to Judaism, or he or she will leave!!.
        Millions of thoroughly Jewish parents have given birth to atheists, agnostics, and converts to other religions.
        And there are lots and lots of Jewish parents (descendants of long-ago converts) who have children who also identify as Jewish- but in a very different way from their parents.
        Each new Jew must be converted, and there’s no guarantee (more the opposite) that even if they consent (yup, the Gentiles let us down) to be Jewish, the new generation may have a completely different way of actualizing that part of their identity.

      • oldgeezer
        February 13, 2017, 8:07 pm

        @eljay and Mooser

        Choosing or converting to Judaism grants you indigenous rights! No other religion can compete with that!

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 11:54 am

        “Choosing or converting to Judaism grants you indigenous rights! No other religion can compete with that!”

        Yeah, that’s why there’s 2 billion Jews, and growing strong.

        Maybe they should offer a decoder ring and two-way-wrist-TV-Radio with each conversion, or, for that matter, retention.

      • jon s
        February 18, 2017, 6:53 am

        talknic,
        Thanks for the good wishes, though you couldn’t refrain from some nastiness. Oh, well…

      • Jon66
        February 25, 2017, 10:58 am

        Talknic,
        From your link to the Canadian Society, “The parents of male newborns must receive the most up-to-date, unbiased and personalized medical information available about neonatal circumcision, so that they can weigh specific risks and benefits of circumcision in the context of their own familial, religious and cultural beliefs.”
        They do not recommend routine circumcision, but recommend that it is a valid choice for parents. That is my position as well. Your DOC organization is an advocacy group, not a medical association.

        Echi,
        Circumcision is certainly a recognized and valid procedure in the US, Canada, etc. it is ethically permissible to be performed by the major medical associations.

      • echinococcus
        February 25, 2017, 2:52 pm

        John 66,

        No one said circumcision is not “a recognized and valid procedure in the US, Canada, etc.” as long as it is performed on fully informed, consenting patients legally able to consent for themselves (as with any mutilation subject to preference) because the stone-age procedure provides no immediate and clearly major health advantage to the subject. The subject is not his daddy, as Mooser was able to tell without being an MD like you say yo do.

        The “major medical associations” of North America that you quote have just as much respect for international medical ethics consensus as the US government has for international law, i.e. they screw it openly and criminally for the financial interest of some of their members like your good self and for dirty imperialist politics, period. We’re talking about a country where the Psychiatric Association condones and helps torture, for f**’s sake –so a little Zionist pandering is not a problem and keeps the fees coming.

        Please spare me more Zionist pleading on Zionist murder, mayhem and mutilation “ethics”.
        Beyond ludicrous.

    • oldgeezer
      February 12, 2017, 10:56 pm

      @jon s

      Off topic for this article but you must be elated that you finally had a stabbing terrorist attack in your stolen town!!

      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170212-israeli-stabs-2-palestinian-street-cleaners-in-beersheba/

      • oldgeezer
        February 13, 2017, 8:49 am

        Hey jon s? Is danny going to demand that the UN condemn this terrorist attack on Israeli Arabs? Amazing how they managed to arrest the Israeli Jew who stabbed them. Good thing they didn’t call a medic!

      • just
        February 13, 2017, 9:06 am

        What??? The IOF thugs didn’t execute the attacker on the spot and leave him to bleed out?

        Unheard of!

        “Two Palestinian street sweepers were stabbed in the city of Beersheba in southern Israel on Sunday morning, according to an Israeli police … who said an Israeli in his twenties was detained for committing the attack.

        Luba al-Samri, the Israeli police spokeswoman, said in a written statement that the Palestinian workers were from the area, seeming to suggest the two held Israeli citizenship.

        The two were evacuated to a hospital were they were treated for minor wounds.

        Al-Samri identified the suspect behind the stabbing as an Israeli Jew in his twenties from Beersheba, saying that initial investigations indicated the motive behind the attack was “criminal,” without providing further details.”

        https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170212-israeli-stabs-2-palestinian-street-cleaners-in-beersheba/

        Yeah, sure. The “criminal” really wanted their sweepers…

      • jon s
        February 13, 2017, 3:13 pm

        old geezer,
        Why in the world would I be elated by a terrorist attack? In my “stolen town” or anywhere else?
        I despise terrorism

      • Mooser
        February 13, 2017, 3:58 pm

        “Why in the world would I be elated by a terrorist attack? In my “stolen town” or anywhere else? I despise terrorism”

        You were pretty elated about Beersheba kicking and beating that poor Eritrean guy to death, over nothing except his skin color.

        Remember, “Jon s” you couldn’t wait to tell us about it! “Terrorist attack in Beersheva this evening. My family and I are ok, thank God.”

        Couldn’t wait to report the murder of an innocent man in your town, Beersheba as a “terrorist attack in Beersheba”.

        BTW, “Jon s” did it ever occur to you that people raised in healthy surroundings would find your fawning sanctimony really disgusting (“I despise terrorism” from an Israel? )? For a guy who “despises terrorism” you sure got no problem living among them, and covering up for them. If, and I don’t think there’s much “if” about it, you weren’t a participant yourself.

      • oldgeezer
        February 13, 2017, 8:28 pm

        @jon s

        I would use twice as many words but not say it half as well as Mooser.

        Lovely place. I think it’s wonderful that you can be part of a mob beating a clearly incapacitated nonJewish man, using a bench no less, and the judge will say… yeah that was a reasonable response. You’re a credit to your uniform.

        No one can buy that just as no one could buy that would be the decision had the victim beena Jewish Israeli.

      • jon s
        February 14, 2017, 12:56 am

        oldgeezer,
        With all respect, your comments are off-the-charts nuts.
        I would be delighted by a terrorist attack?
        I was part of a mob attacking an innocent man?
        A credit to my uniform ? What uniform?
        Where do you come up with this stuff?

      • jon s
        February 14, 2017, 5:02 am

        old geezer,
        Rereading your comment, it looks like your source is “Mooser”, a commenter who obssessively responds to every post of mine with nonsense and lies, even inventing biographical details of my life. Just ignore anything he writes about me, as I do.

      • Talkback
        February 14, 2017, 8:22 am

        jon s; “old geezer, Why in the world would I be elated by a terrorist attack? In my “stolen town” or anywhere else? I despise terrorism.”

        You despise terrorism? How on earth do you think that Israel was established?

      • oldgeezer
        February 14, 2017, 9:58 am

        @jon s

        To the extent you took my comment as indicating that you personally were part of that mob I will unreservedly apologize. I meant you in the collective sense and perhaps should have used the phrase “that one could be”. I was referring to the incident which I know you are aware of and the general state of racism in tbe justice system. The foul decision that it was ok to beat an incapacitated man. If I were to see you and merely perceive you as a threat the proceed to beat you I can guarantee that I would be facing hard jail time and not getting praise from a judge. And I can also guarantee that I wouldn’t be doing that but that is beside the point.

      • eljay
        February 14, 2017, 10:19 am

        || Talkback: … You despise terrorism? How on earth do you think that Israel was established? ||

        I don’t doubt that jon s despises terrorism – I just think he (as a Zionist) is selective about what constitutes terrorism.

        So, for example, Israel wasn’t established using terrorism and ethnic cleansing, it was established through “self-determination” and maybe even a “necessary evil” or two.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 11:42 am

        “Just ignore anything he writes about me, as I do.”

        That’s right, a Zionist has the power to tell us what to read and what to ignore. Kiss my ass, “Jon s”. You ignore me because you have no answers. You go where you think that nauseating sanctimony will be effective. Sell that load of clams elsewhere.

        “Jon s” is the mortal enemy of all the Jews in the world.
        All “Jon s” wants to do is make Jews outside Israel hostages to Zionism.

        “Jon s” wants to ruin the lives of Jews everywhere, so we are forced to lower ourselves to the level of the Zionists, and join them in their Masadammerung.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 11:48 am

        “I meant you in the collective sense and perhaps should have”

        Everybody in Beersheba who was in on it has been bragging, singing and dancing about it. Beersheba is a small cohesive place.

        “Jon s” knows who they are, what they did, and will not cross the ‘thin blue line’.

        “Rereading your comment, it looks like your source is “Mooser”

        The source, Jerkoffsky, is your goddam archive, the words and the time-stamps.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 12:00 pm

        “A credit to my uniform ? What uniform?”

        Oh, you know, “Jon s”, that little leather-strappy thing we wear (good for sooo many uses) and the the white shawl, Rumaal-like thingy, and the little helmet-liner. Everybody knows our uniform.

      • amigo
        February 14, 2017, 12:52 pm

        “A credit to my uniform ? What uniform?” Jon S

        Whatever you happen to be wearing on any given day when you are teaching Israeli History , unless you are going to claim you tell your students that Israel,s founding Fathers and Mother were terrorists and you hate them.

        Absent that , you are an integral part of the ongoing terrorism of the goi and our claims to hate all terrorism ring hollow.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 14, 2017, 3:31 pm

        Mooser

        All anyone needs to know about long-standing soi disant Israeli lefties was revealed during 2014 and operation protective edge.

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 4:21 pm

        “All anyone needs to know about long-standing soi disant Israeli lefties was revealed during 2014 and operation protective edge”

        Or can be revealed by word-searching “Hamas” in the “Israeli history teacher’s” archive.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 14, 2017, 4:55 pm

        Mooser

        I have always found that the best way to set a Sabra off is to throw the word Gaza into the conversation.
        Anyone who is proud to teach Israeli history is running Groupthink. And Groupthink in Hebrew blames Hamas for the most depraved Israeli behaviour. Because Hamas is the Nazis and fulfils this vital psychological role given that Israel has made peace with Germany.

        jon s April 10, 2015 at 11:56 am with 1 replies Donald, First of all, for the record, I stand by what I wrote about Hamas bearing primary responsibility for the civilian casualties. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s/?keyword=Hamas#sthash.3hL0y1xO.dpuf

        jon s August 27, 2014 at 12:33 am with 7 replies In Israel the mood is, indeed, somber. We payed a terrible price, with 70 killed, injuries and economic damage. We love life and celebrate life, so we are mourning our dead, and we’re also sorry for the civilian deaths in Gaza, caused by Hamas. Hamas celebrate death, so they’re celebrating. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s/1/?keyword=Hamas#sthash.tfMCwgto.dpuf

      • Mooser
        February 14, 2017, 7:46 pm

        “I have always found that the best way to set a Sabra off is to throw the word Gaza into the conversation”

        “Jon s” is no “Sabra”:

        “And, hey, I was born in West Hartford!” “Jon s” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s/?keyword=born#sthash.cJt6Njq1.dpuf

        “So I’m not “indigenous” because I wasn’t born here but…” “Jon s” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon-s/?keyword=born#sthash.cJt6Njq1.dpuf

      • Maghlawatan
        February 15, 2017, 1:03 am

        Mooser, I haven’t been following the scandal closely enough. If Jon s is not a Sabra does that make him a Shatila?

      • Mooser
        February 15, 2017, 12:25 pm

        “If Jon s is not a Sabra does that make him a Shatila?”

        Does “Shatila” mean ‘accessory to murder’ in Hebrew?

      • jon s
        February 17, 2017, 4:44 am

        oldgeezer,
        Your apology is unreservedly accepted, of course.
        Sorry for not responding sooner, been sort of busy (for happy reasons: my wife and I have just welcomed our first grandson…)

      • eljay
        February 17, 2017, 8:38 am

        || jon s: … been sort of busy (for happy reasons: my wife and I have just welcomed our first grandson…) ||

        Congratulations! :-)

      • Maghlawatan
        February 17, 2017, 8:50 am

        If the child were born in the US it would not be programmed with the vicious memes of Zionism via the medium of Hebrew. Given it was born in Israel it has no choice.

      • oldgeezer
        February 17, 2017, 8:55 am

        @jon s

        Congrats on the grandchild. I have two… One is old enough to put me into great grandparent category and I live in fear of that haha. Kidding.

        Grandchildren are fantastic. Enjoy.

      • Mooser
        February 17, 2017, 11:37 am

        “|| jon s: … been sort of busy (for happy reasons: my wife and I have just welcomed our first grandson…) ||”

        Gee, isn’t that nice. Time for some good old genital mutilation.
        And a happy Brit Periah to the poor schlimazel.

        What a sweet little revenge on the kid. I get that, but what is it revenge for?

      • Mooser
        February 17, 2017, 12:26 pm

        …it has no choice.

        Oh, there’s all kinds of things in life where we are presented with fewer choices than we would like. But to have no choice about keeping your body the way God made it is completely unnecessary. And to do unnecessary surgery on an organ for the sake of appearance? Beyond comprehension.

      • jon s
        February 17, 2017, 12:43 pm

        oldgeezer, eljay,
        Thanks for the good wishes!

      • echinococcus
        February 17, 2017, 1:18 pm

        Maghlawatan,

        You really have no idea about the US. The most obscurantist, murderous, all-pervasive Zionist indoctrination right from the cradle is given here in the US, in the tribal reservations. Graduates in the delta-epsilon classes go to man the Zionist occupation as cannon fodder, the intermediate tiers stay here in the 5th column and the smart ones just cut themselves off.

      • Mooser
        February 17, 2017, 1:48 pm

        “my wife and I have just welcomed our first grandson…)”

        Your first grandchild. Not even replacement-rate, is it? Don’t see how that is going to work.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 17, 2017, 3:08 pm

        Échi, there is a qualitative difference between Hebrew speaking IDF fodder and US Jews. I have never seen a video of American Jews screaming “school”s out in Gaza. There are no children there”. The % of Yank Jews who drink the Kool Aid is less than 50%. And how many would murder ? Compared to Israelis. US Judaism is relatively normal. Israel is a basket case.

      • Mooser
        February 17, 2017, 3:32 pm

        Oh, never mind. I’ve been looking it up and apparently “consent” and “protecting children” are anti-semitic concepts.

      • talknic
        February 17, 2017, 7:09 pm

        @ jon s February 17, 2017, 4:44 am

        ” my wife and I have just welcomed our first grandson”

        Congratulations. Let the brainwashing and mutilation begin

      • yonah fredman
        February 17, 2017, 8:53 pm

        Mazel tov, Jon!

      • jon s
        February 18, 2017, 6:50 am

        Yonah,
        Thanks , shabbat shalom!

      • jon s
        February 18, 2017, 9:52 am

        talknic, thanks for the good wishes, even though you couldn’t bring yourself to refrain from some nastiness. (“brainwashing”, “mutilation”…)

      • Mooser
        February 18, 2017, 12:23 pm

        “you couldn’t bring yourself to refrain from some nastiness.”

        “Jon s” if “talknic” does anything ‘nasty’ like take a knife to your grandkid’s genitals, or tries to mess with his mind, you let me know. We don’t cotton to nastiness around here.

        So, “Jon s” fill me in. What are the benefits of brit periah”? And uh, what if the kid decides later he would rather be whole? But like I said “informed consent” and “protection of children from abuse” are ‘nasty’ concepts.

        OH, BTW, “Jon s”, have you noticed, in the past fifty years, the emphasis on sexual pleasure and performance and information in the US and Europe? Gonna be hell to pay.

      • echinococcus
        February 18, 2017, 4:48 pm

        Maghlawatan,

        As already said, you’re misinformed on America. Especially on its Zionists.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 19, 2017, 2:38 am

        Echi you are not coherent. There are 6 million Jews in the US. Take one at random. Doesn^t speak Hebrew. Not educated in Israel. Does not or will not or did not serve in the Israeli army.
        Sure there are extremists in ADL, ZOA , Hillel etc but the mass of the Jewish population are nowhere near a Yossi in terms of indoctrination and readiness to kill.

        http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-07-21/calls-for-genocide-enter-israeli-mainstream/#sthash.VBM27wEd.dpuf

        This kind of stuff does not happen in Jewish communities in the US because Jews are a minority, because they are part of a wider culture, because parenting is better, because they are better educated than Yossis

      • echinococcus
        February 19, 2017, 3:30 pm

        Maghla,

        We seem to be moving in different circles. I meet a lot of tribals, including often in circles close to the so-called “left”.

      • echinococcus
        February 19, 2017, 3:39 pm

        Maghlawatan,

        Is that why we are manning the Zionist entity with about half of the “settler” riffraff and something like more than 20,000 of its goddam soldiers?

        Do you really believe the bullshit of the pirate armed forces being totally distinct from US Jewry? Of course the US produces a very considerable number of eager murderers.

        Zionist is Zionist. In fact, their owners and real managers are over here.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 20, 2017, 8:32 am

        Echi

        I would be surprised if there were 50,000 American settlers.
        I have worked with Americans who emigrated to Israel and they all came across as the same. Very driven, not of the mainstream.

        Arendt wrote: “Palestine Jewry would eventually separate itself from a larger body of world Jewry and in its isolation, develop into an entirely new people.”

        I think that is what has happened.

      • echinococcus
        February 20, 2017, 9:37 am

        Maghlawatan,

        That might be possible if you counted all the entirely secular people with only biologic connection, who don’t consider themselves part the tribe, like me -even then, it may be a stretch. When we talk of “Jewish” we shouldn’t use Nazi/Zionist principles to force, non-tribal, non-Zionist, normal people into the group.

        That said, you are free to build your castles in thin air and see positive developments here and there. It all doesn’t amount to a hill of beans anyway: the total head count cannot in any case exceed 3% of the population –not worth wasting time when it’s the general population one must do everything to recruit into stopping support for Zionism.

      • catalan
        February 20, 2017, 9:57 am

        Mag,
        I agree that Israel is a separate nation. I know a few second generation immigrants from Bulgaria living there, and I have very little in common with them. They are my cousins but we don’t speak the same language and share extremely little in taste or values. I do think though that Jews have a future only in Israel and the United States, possibly in Latin America too. Europe is extremely unfriendly. The US has an anti Jewish element too but it is well balanced with all the other intolerances of everyone against everyone else. It’s just too diverse for one antipathy to take over so we live in happy resentment.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 20, 2017, 12:38 pm

        Échi

        Judaism has been overwhelmed. Zionism is like a disturbed sibling who terrorises the family.
        The only thing to stop it is power . And it won’t be Jewish power that neutralises Israel.

      • echinococcus
        February 20, 2017, 2:41 pm

        Maghla,

        Absolutely.
        The tribal religion is anything but guilt-free in the rise of Zionism, though.

    • eljay
      February 13, 2017, 3:41 pm

      || jon s: eljay, I believe in equal rights for all, regardless of religion, nationality, race, gender, whatever. So, naturally, I condemn any form of supremacism. … ||

      jon, you’ve made it very clear many times that you believe in (and do not condemn):
      – Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” primarily for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews; and
      – a Zionist “peace” that absolves Israel of its obligations under international law (including RoR) and of accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes.

      • Maghlawatan
        February 17, 2017, 8:52 am

        He believes in equal rights. Except for those denoted terrorist for whom execution is too good. And he decides who is classed terrorist.

    • talknic
      February 18, 2017, 5:16 pm

      @ jon s February 18, 2017, 6:53 am

      What IS nasty in the times we live in today is the barbaric mutilation of babies and brainwashing of children based on myth and purposeful deception

      • Mooser
        February 18, 2017, 6:58 pm

        “and brainwashing of children based on myth and purposeful deception”

        Zionist brainwashing” (political propaganda, misinformation and cultural persuasion) can be undone. In the right environment, very quickly and completely, too.

      • jon s
        February 20, 2017, 4:33 pm

        talknic,
        What you call “barbaric mutilation” is regarded by most Jews as an important ritual, a traditional sign of Jewish identity and a joyous occasion.

      • Mooser
        February 20, 2017, 7:20 pm

        “What you call “barbaric mutilation” is regarded by most Jews as an important ritual…”

        Oh, excuuuuse me! And I thought you didn’t get informed consent before the mohel starts in.

      • Mooser
        February 20, 2017, 7:22 pm

        “a traditional sign of Jewish identity”

        Oh my God, that’s disgusting, carving an identity sign into an infant’s genitals. So he can always be identified when it counts.

        What is the functional effect, of circumcision “Jon s”? Certainly in the days before antibiotics, a much-desired functional effect is needed to justify such a risk. What is it?

      • echinococcus
        February 21, 2017, 3:36 am

        John S,

        What you call “barbaric mutilation” is regarded by most Jews as an important ritual, a traditional sign of Jewish identity and a joyous occasion.

        Of course, John S. Of course the barbarians themselves see what they do as something meaningful, useful, etc. No one ever contested that. Barbarian and criminal the act remains.

        Doesn’t the Zionist entity test the prospective brain-washers of its youth for elementary logic? Think of it, no Zionist would pass.

      • jon s
        February 23, 2017, 3:03 am

        echinicoccush,
        So it’s not only “barbarian”, it’s “criminal”. I take it, then , that in your opinion our circumcision ritual should be outlawed. Rabbis and mohels and parents should be prosecuted and sent to jail.
        You’re not even original: the ritual has always been a favorite target for Jew-haters.

      • Talkback
        February 23, 2017, 8:52 am

        jon s: “the ritual has always been a favorite target for Jew-haters.”

        And for people who want to protect children’s right, their physical integrity in general and their genitals in particular. But you obviously don’t belong to this group. Do you support or enjoy vother child abusing rituals by any chance? How about the mutilation of female genitals?

      • eljay
        February 23, 2017, 9:48 am

        || jon s: … the ritual has always been a favorite target for Jew-haters. ||

        And Muslim-haters, since Muslims indulge in it in far greater numbers.

        IMO, circumcision should not be forced up on infants but should be left to those who freely choose it. And to make it really special, it should be done with an axe:

        Male Circumcision in Islam:

        The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The Prophet Ibrahim circumcised himself when he was eighty years old and he circumcised himself with an axe.” (Related by Bukhari, Muslim & Ahmad.)

      • echinococcus
        February 23, 2017, 10:05 am

        Of course, John S. It is fully criminal to damage the bodily integrity of any human being without fully and reliably informed consent, which children are not supposed to be able to give.
        It is a particularly heinous crime to practice any mutilation on infants but surely applies to all humans of any sex, age or nationality.

        All laws, international conventions and regulations are crystal clear on this point. The only reason our cowardly, murderous politicians continue to ignore the law is blackmail and threats by the religious bigots, both Jewish and Moslem, who want the freedom to maim and mutilate children.

        Now, I don’t see you guys, ie Zionists and religious Jews, trying to even be logical. Where is the “antisemitism”, again? This applies to all humans, male or female, young or old, Jewish or Eskimo or Siberian.

        Of course, you being a major criminal, in fact an active participant in divers war crimes, just a little matter of mutilation would not seem so serious to you. Especially considering that for Zionists, maiming, torturing or killing Ayrabs (and probably any other non-tribal) is not a crime, as just shown again by a Zionist tribunal.

      • Mooser
        February 23, 2017, 3:43 pm

        “So it’s not only “barbarian”, it’s “criminal”. I take it, then , that in your opinion our circumcision ritual should be outlawed. Rabbis and mohels and parents should be prosecuted and sent to jail”

        Oh, please, avoiding all the issues in a welter of Jewish paranoia and self pity.

        “Jon s” you want to talk about anything, and everyone, except the infant. The person it happens to.

        Here’s a thought, “Jon s”, consult some articles on medical ethics and a parent’s duty as medical guardians to their children and tell me how circumcision, as practiced, fits into that?

        But you won’t. You will go on, and on (and on) telling us how everybody else likes circumcision. But you will avoid discussing the person it happens to, as if this child does not exist as a person.

        Oh, and circumcision covers, so to speak, a lot of ground. Shall we discuss the changes in styles of circumcision? Why did that happen?

      • Mooser
        February 23, 2017, 4:34 pm

        “… himself with an ax

        I have proposed a much less invasive form of the ritual, which also includes some good advice for young men just starting out in life.

      • Jon66
        February 23, 2017, 4:48 pm

        1. Parents consent to procedures they view as beneficial to the appearance or cultural norms for their children frequently. Setting back ears, nose jobs, cleft lip, benign but ugly moles, depressed chest plates, etc. Even ear piercing leaves a scar. If the procedure has acceptable risks and benefits parents often approve.
        2. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) says the benefits of circumcision outweigh the risks. However, the AAP doesn’t recommend routine circumcision for all male newborns. The AAP leaves the circumcision decision up to parents.http://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/basics/why-its-done/prc-20013585

      • talknic
        February 23, 2017, 6:06 pm

        @ jon s February 20, 2017, 4:33 pm

        “What you call “barbaric mutilation” is regarded by most Jews as an important ritual, a traditional sign of Jewish identity and a joyous occasion”

        A) Mutilating a helpless baby as a ritual is sadistic and barbaric. If you were to cut off any other part of their anatomy as a ritual you’d be arrested, but it’s OK to ritually mutilate their reproductive organ. There’s something sad and quite twisted in that kind of ‘logic’

        B) The joyfulness of a baby screaming in pain while his mutilator sucks away the blood flowing from their handiwork is such an interesting theory

        —–

        @ Jon s February 23, 2017, 3:03 am

        “… the ritual has always been a favorite target for Jew-haters”

        Ah yes, of course. Compassion for babies is Jew hatred. Muslims circumcise. Even some Christians and non-religious persons circumcise for cosmetic and other dubious reasons (a billion or so Chinese seem to have survived without)

        BTW Circumcised men can and still do contract STDs/AIDS

      • Mooser
        February 23, 2017, 7:18 pm

        “Even some Christians and non-religious persons circumcise for cosmetic and other dubious reasons”

        Or a hospital performs it as a matter of course.

        You know, in the last 50 years I’ve noticed a cultural emphasis on sex, sexual information, sexual performance in the US culture. One might say we have become coarsened, but there it is.
        There’s gonna be hell to pay.

      • Jon66
        February 23, 2017, 7:56 pm

        There is also this from WHO
        “There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

        Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; the promotion of safer sex practices; the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use.”
        http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

      • oldgeezer
        February 23, 2017, 11:36 pm

        @jon66

        I don’t wish to enter the debate as currently framed but the CDC has advised that the test results should not be applied outside of Africa. The page is on my tablet and I’m on my phone so sorry for not providing it.

      • talknic
        February 24, 2017, 12:36 am

        @ Jon66 February 23, 2017, 7:56 pm

        There is also this from WHO
        “There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe.”

        Babies? NO! Ritual? NO! Identification? NO!

        Furthermore they’re not even talking about babies. They’re talking about men who’re sexually active.

        From the article you cited:

        Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; the promotion of safer sex practices; the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use.”

        So circumcision itself might have no effect other than being a focus point for distributing educational and preventative material

        Baby crying joyfully, WAAA WHHHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!

        Mohel, spitting, “There done!”

        Baby joyfully crying, BWAAAAAAA WHHHAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Father, “Why is he crying?”

        Jon66, “He’s overjoyed!”

        Entire world, “Oh.”

        Jon66, “Oh, here’s his comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes: the provision of HIV testing “

        Mother, “He’s only a baby!”

        Jon66, “… and counseling services; treatment for sexually transmitted infections; “

        Mother, He’s only a baby!

        Jon66, “… the provision of male and female condoms and … “

        Mother, HE’S ONLY A BABY!!!!!

        Jon66, “.. and promotion of their correct and consistent use. “

        Mohel, “Got anything on herpes?”

        Joyfully crying baby joyfully crying some more, WAAAAAAAA AAA A A WHHHHHAAA AAA AAA A A A!!!!

        Jon66 “Happy little fellow!”

      • talknic
        February 24, 2017, 7:15 am

        oldgeezer February 23, 2017, 11:36 pm

        “The page is on my tablet and I’m on my phone…”
        and What is on second and Who is kveltzing

      • Talkback
        February 24, 2017, 7:16 am

        Thanks to jon s support of the genital mutilation of infants every year 100 babies die in the US mostly from loss of blood and infection. In NYC alone 15 Jewish babies die every year, because of herpes caused by metzitzah (the mohel’s mouth-to-bloody-penis-suction).

        Mazel tov, jon s.

      • Jon66
        February 24, 2017, 11:01 am

        Talknic,
        “So circumcision itself might have no effect other than being a focus point for distributing educational and preventative material – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2017/02/response-harassment-reinforces/#comment-175329

        Seat belts only partially protect you in a car accident, but that doesn’t mean that they are ineffective.
        The American Academy of a pediatrics after an analysis is the scientific evidence has stated that there are benefits and risks and they recommend the decision be left to the parents. Is your medical knowledge or review of the literature superior to them? I have no issue with parents who do not wish to circumcise but there is medical merit to the procedure that you wish to ignore. Instead of fictional conversations how about some actual medical evidence that addresses the procedure when it is performed using optimal standards.

      • Mooser
        February 24, 2017, 11:19 am

        “I am a husband, father, and surgeon. I was raised in a Zionist household and am interested in a peaceful solution.” – “Jon 66” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jon66/#sthash.FJIsjOZo.dpuf

        Oh, so he’s a surgeon! Perhaps our resident “surgeon” can tell us (no doubt with studies and cites) what effect circumcision (especially brit periah, the “low and tight” cut) has on sexual function. What effect is it intended to have, and does it achieve that effect? Or did anybody take that into account?

        In case you didn’t hear me, “Jon 66”: Please tell us what effect circumcision has on sexual function in the male. Feel free to refer to relevant studies and clinical tests.

      • Jon66
        February 24, 2017, 12:40 pm

        Here we go:
        “Evidence-based policy statements by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) support infant and later age male circumcision (MC) as a desirable public health measure. Our systematic review of relevant literature over the past decade yielded 140 journal articles that met our inclusion criteria. Together, these showed that early infant MC confers immediate and lifelong benefits by protecting against urinary tract infections having potential adverse long-term renal effects, phimosis that causes difficult and painful erections and “ballooning” during urination, inflammatory skin conditions, inferior penile hygiene, candidiasis, various sexually transmissible infections in both sexes, genital ulcers, and penile, prostate and cervical cancer. Our risk-benefit analysis showed that benefits exceeded procedural risks, which are predominantly minor, by up to 200 to 1. We estimated that more than 1 in 2 uncircumcised males will experience an adverse foreskin-related medical condition over their lifetime. Wide-ranging evidence from surveys, physiological measurements, and the anatomical location of penile sensory receptors responsible for sexual sensation strongly and consistently suggested that MC has no detrimental effect on sexual function, sensitivity or pleasure. United States studies showed that early infant MC is cost saving. The evidence supporting early infant MC has further strengthened since the positive AAP and CDC reviews.”https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28224100

        “Following non-medical circumcision, no inferior sexual function was reported (A-B). Following medical circumcision, most outcomes were comparable (B); however, problems in obtaining an orgasm were increased (C) and erectile dysfunction was reported with inconsistency (D). A younger age at circumcision seemed to cause less sexual dysfunction than circumcision later in life.” Non- medical circumcision, presumably ritual, was found to have no reported sexual function impact.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27399981

        The evidence based medicine is clear. The risk-reward ratio of circumcision is favorable enough for some medical groups to recommend it. Others weigh the evidence and disagree. The procedure can be safely performed by non- medical practioners. The non-medical circumcision has no statistically significant sexual function issues.

        If we could limit further discussion to peer reviewed literature we might actually learn something. Otherwise it’s as accurate as Wiccans discussing polio vaccine.

      • Mooser
        February 24, 2017, 12:45 pm

        “Seatbelts only partially protect you….”

        “Genesis 1:27
        So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them;”

        I’ll take my chances with that.
        And wow, them womens sure are filled with disease and pollution, huh, that should be my first concern? There isn’t just a bit of misogny in that?

        But don’t be shy, “Jon 66”, please detail circumcision’s effect on male sexual function. Of course, as a “surgeon” you know these things. Remember “Jonny66” : “First, do no harm”. Be sure to distinguish between the different types of circumcision.

      • Jon66
        February 24, 2017, 9:33 pm

        Talknic,
        The site you referenced is not an actual peer reviewed study. It picks and chooses quotations to support its position.
        For example, CPS paper referenced actually says, “Because the medical risk:benefit ratio of routine newborn male circumcision is closely balanced when current research is reviewed (Table 1), it is challenging to make definitive recommendations for the entire male newborn population in Canada. For some boys, the likelihood of benefit is higher and circumcision could be considered for disease reduction or treatment. Health care professionals should provide parents with the most up-to-date, unbiased and personalized medical information available so that they can weigh the specific risks and benefits of circumcising their son in the context of familial, religious and cultural beliefs. Having the right information will enable them to make the best decision for their boys. Decision aids based on current medical information can be helpful.”
        The BMA reference in the website you provided is dead. Currently the BMA has no policy position.

        The website does not quote the RACP, but rather summarizes it because the actual RACP conclusion is, “However it is reasonable for parents to weigh the benefits and risks of circumcision and to make the decision whether or not to circumcise their sons.”

        Instead of referencing one biased website, an actual review of the policy papers and medical literature would be more accurate.

        Based upon an analysis of the current medical literature, my point is not that circumcision is good or bad, or that circumcision should or should not be performed routinely. My point is that the peer reviewed medical literature supports the safety of circumcision both within a medical and ritual context. Non – medical circumcision does not have ill effects on sexual function. The decision is complex and should be left to the parents to determine if it’s in the best interests of their children. There is room for disagreement, but it should be based upon the actual science.

      • talknic
        February 25, 2017, 5:08 am

        @ Jon66 February 24, 2017, 9:33 pm

        “The site you referenced is not an actual peer reviewed study. It picks and chooses quotations to support its position:

        You’re delusional http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/for-professionals/medical-organization-statements/

        Canadian Paediatric Society http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision

        Royal Dutch Medical Association http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/knmg-non-therapeutic-circumcision-of-male-minors-27-05-2010.pdf

        Etc

      • jon s
        February 25, 2017, 6:01 am

        A casual reference to the birth of my grandson has brought good wishes on one hand and vicious remarks about “mutilation ” on the other and a full-blown discussion of ritual circumcision.

        The history: the “mitzvah” (good deed) of the “brit” appears in Genesis 17:

        10This is My covenant, which you shall observe between Me and between you and between your seed after you, that every male among you be circumcised.
        11And you shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be as the sign of a covenant between Me and between you.
        12And at the age of eight days, every male shall be circumcised to you throughout your generations, one that is born in the house, or one that is purchased with money, from any foreigner, who is not of your seed.
        13Those born in the house and those purchased for money shall be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.
        14And an uncircumcised male, who will not circumcise the flesh of his foreskin-that soul will be cut off from its people; he has broken My covenant.”

        Throughout history, the brit has been a sign of Jewish identity. Jews have been willing literally to give their lives, to die, rather than forego it. The disastrous Bar Kokhva revolt broke out after the Emperor Hadrian tried to ban the practice.

        Jon66 provided information about the health benefits. For people like myself, , who perform the ritual because it’s our people’s tradition, the health benefits are an added bonus.

        As to obtaining “consent”: that’s nonsense. Parents are always making decisions for their kids: naming them, deciding where to live, what to eat, what to wear, which school to send them to, what values to raise them on. It’s part of what parenting is all about. That said, I’m totally against coercion. Parents who don’t want to do it should not be pressured, parents who do, should not be prevented. It’s a freedom-of-religion issue.

        In practice, it’s important to hire a qualified, competent mohel, with plenty of experience under his belt –so to speak- who maintains a strict standard of sterility in the procedure, who examines the baby in advance and makes a follow-up visit. The guidelines for mohalim specifically bans the old-school practice of mouth-to-penis suction. In general, it’s not done.
        When the procedure is performed, the baby cries and then calms down amazingly fast. Within a few days the place heals.

        The ceremony itself is a joyous event, a celebration of life and love, welcoming the new guy into the tribe. There’s also the matter of announcing the boy’s name, which in our case , in my family , triggered very emotional responses.

        The only minor glitch we had was that the mohel was late , so we had to tell the hall go ahead and serve the first course. When he finally showed up,the ceremony was done between the first and main courses , not exactly as we had planned, but no big deal.

      • echinococcus
        February 25, 2017, 6:22 am

        John 66,

        Thank you for a (this time) relatively passable (albeit still very biased) summary of the overwhelming Zionist political influence in medical decisions, bypassing all serious international laws and conventions.

        I’ll trouble you with a reminder that parental consent is ethically admissible without an additional informed consent by the child subject only when the benefit to health, quality of life and/or survival is clear and substantial. Cherry-picking three strongly biased and rather inadequately controlled studies (that don’t even deserve the title of trials) that apply only to adults or, on the outside, to adolescents (and ignoring contradicting results), even if this was done by politically constituted professional associations, will not fly.

        “Families’ decisions” in any medical recommendation is pure bunkum. That openly says it is a political question: in international medical ethics consensus, parents and guardians only can decide if a clear, unopposed and substantial health advantage is accrued.

        Also, a post to you questioning your personal political and material interest in this matter was censored. We may get back to that in due time.

      • Mooser
        February 25, 2017, 11:52 am

        In every one of “Jon s” and “Jon 66” the male infant is reduced to a prop in a Jewish ritual, not a real person (and made in the image of God, too)

        So get a friggin anatomically correct doll, and have a bris with that, okay?

      • Mooser
        February 25, 2017, 11:58 am

        “Parents make decisions…”

        All of which can be changed or modified by the child. Oh, except for scarifying his organ.

        “That said, I’m totally against coercion. Parents who don’t want to do it should not be pressured, parents who do, should not be prevented. It’s a freedom-of-religion issue.”

        Once again “Jon s”, are you a little confused about who is getting circumcised? It’s not the parents. It’s not about them. Why do you keep forgetting that?

  19. talknic
    February 12, 2017, 5:47 pm

    @ jon s February 12, 2017, 4:32 pm

    The NIF does admirable work, for which it deserves nothing but praise from all those for whom promoting peace democracy and social justice is important”

    uh huh

    Remembering Shimon Peres … … … Today, we remember him as a man who worked tirelessly for peace … http://action.nif.org/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=10392

    He was a war mongering, lying shill for the Zionist Federation’s colonization of Palestine, who did absolutely nothing for peace with the Palestinians. NOT ONE THING!

  20. oldgeezer
    February 13, 2017, 8:51 pm

    I’ve been following the Sibiriak and eljay thread closely….

    I think the article is spot on but I’m still somewhat on the fence when it comes to the NIF.

    I recognized some of the groups they fund and I checked out another half dozen or so. I don’t have the time to check them all.

    I congratulate and thank them for a lot of their work. It may not be enough but it’s a step. It’s a far cry from groups such as the jnf.

    I’m not sure that’s enough though in a situation where there has been going on70 years worth of oppression and dispossession. Particularly since not only is there no end in sight but their are signs that it is about to speed up.

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