The bulldozers of Shavuot, 1967

Middle East
on 69 Comments

In a few weeks, the world will commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Six Day War, which ended partition and began the occupation. Israelis will celebrate the “liberation” of Jerusalem. They will gather at the wide open plaza of the Western Wall. Before the war this was a neighborhood called the Mughrabi Quarter: 135 houses with 700 residents, many of them of Moroccan and Algerian ancestry.

Yesterday at the Center for Palestine Studies in New York, Vincent Lemire, a French scholar, told a story about the destruction of the Quarter and the expulsion of those residents that he heard from Haifa Khalidi in her family’s house next to the former Mughrabi Quarter.

Vincent Lemire, from his twitter feed

Lemire:

I would like to relate this visit and tell you how staggering was this discovery that led me to the archives. For several minutes I had many questions in my mind. Why Haifa Khalidi was sleeping in this tiny room, at the top of a small staircase, very narrow and very steep, at the top floor of this splendid Mamluk house in the center of the old city of Jerusalem, where she sleeps alone? Why is she sleeping in this tiny bed in this tiny room under the roof, overheated in summer and freezing during winter?

The answer was obvious. She was sleeping there because she is afraid. She was afraid that the settlers from the next door yeshiva could enter from the roof during the night to occupy the house, as they occupy several houses in the neighborhood. That’s why she is sleeping at the top floor– as the gatekeeper of the house.

And this scared– this frightness has direct connections with the destruction of the Mughrabi neighborhood 50 years ago.

Haifa Khalidi was born, as you know, in a prestigious Palestinian family in this very house in 1948 during the first war between Israel and its Arab neighbors. And for 70 years she has never left this very place.

She wanted to take me on the rooftop. We switched from this tiny room to this boundless view… It was evening time. The night was wonderful. From there one can see Bethlehem to the south, the Mount of Olives to the east, and further, the desert and even see the first lights of Amman… The wailing wall– I have never seen in this light.

Haifa said, “Come with me downstairs to see from the bathroom windows.”

And here in the bathroom she told me the story– her story of the Six Days War and of the destruction of the Mughrabi neighborhood.

“It was from here that I saw the bulldozers raiding the Mughrabi neighborhood just at the end of the war. Sunday the 11th, Monday the 12th of June 1967. Two days and two nights… I remember the noise, the dust, the screams, the tears. The residents had two hours to collect their belongings and leave their houses forever. After the destruction, two old women were found dead under the rubble of their house.

“I was afraid that our house was going to crumble. Finally the bulldozer stopped just before the wall of our house. In front of this bathroom, just here–”

And she showed me the place with her hand. She was reviving the imagination from her mind. At that time she was 19 years old.

The Mughrabi Quarter before the Six Day War. View is from the west. Western Wall is in the middle ground.

Back home I looked for pictures of this destruction. I found some. Not so much. In these pictures, we actually see bulldozers, piles of rubble, trucks, and we see the crowd of Israelis beginning to gather in this place, to pray and to sing, on Wednesday, the 14th of June, for the celebration of Shavuot.

The French consulate archives reveal that 200,000 Israelis came to visit the wailing wall during these days.

We are historians. Our duty is to report and to tell the history. And more than that our duty is to identify the blind spot, the dark places of yesterday and to light them, to make it visible and accessible for this day.

Photograph of the Western Wall plaza today, on what was the Mughrabi Quarter. Photo from Jewish Federations of San Diego, from its page, opportunities to travel to Jerusalem.

Shavuot is a Jewish holiday commemorating the giving of the Torah to Moses by God.

The Mughrabi Quarter had been preserved, till its destruction, by a waqf— an Islamic philanthropic trust– maintained from Algeria, Lemire said.

Below is a map of the Old City showing the Khalidi library at the northwest corner of the plaza opposite the Western Wall. It is two doors down from the house in the story. Here is the website for the Khalidi Library, containing a description of the Mamluk house in which Lemire met Haifa Khalidi.

Map of the Old City showing Khalidi library at edge of the former Mughrabi Quarter.

Here is a photograph from that website of the Khalidi library, two doors down from the Khalidi house.

Khalidi library, in old city of Jerusalem, near Western Wall

 

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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69 Responses

  1. Citizen
    April 19, 2017, 2:56 pm

    In more macro context: What say we all about “revisionist history”? In the context of “history is written by the victors”? Just asking. Further inquiry: Is it not the very job of historians to change the narrative depending on what is revealed, uncovered after the initial history is written? Again, in context, modern states classify data, with statutes pushing freedom of information access far in the future. Bush Jr said, to paraphrase, “history is made by me, they can write about it later, much later.” Those condemned at Nuremberg & Tokyo did get to do that. I’m afraid historical truth remains in the hands of the PTB, as always; of course, this changes, eh?
    Case in point: How did folks look at the painting of Custer’s Last Stand in 1950? How do folks look at the same painting now?

    • Keith
      April 19, 2017, 8:06 pm

      CITIZEN- “In more macro context: What say we all about “revisionist history”? In the context of “history is written by the victors”?”

      History is written by those “professionals” employed (either directly or indirectly) by the elites. As such, virtually all of history is really myth history. Facts presented and interpreted in such a way as to reinforce the elite narrative. Historians who deviate will face consequences. More honest telling of historical facts usually comes from dissidents and non-historians. Chomsky used to be good before he started accommodating parts of the imperial narrative.

  2. just
    April 19, 2017, 3:15 pm

    A sobering reminder of the vicious and entirely planned destruction and theft of Palestine from the Palestinians that Israel chooses to ‘celebrate’. I think it’s the only way to properly ‘commemorate’ these sins that Zionists chuckle over while they continue to sin and break international law with alacrity and impunity.

    Ilan Pappe seems to have the same idea:

    “Jenin won’t forget Israel’s massacre

    Fifteen years ago this month the Israeli army bombarded and assaulted the Jenin refugee camp for more than 10 days. This was part of Israel’s so-called Operation Defensive Shield, during which it sent troops into the heart of six major cities in the occupied West Bank and surrounding towns and refugee camps that were ostensibly under Palestinian Authority control.

    In a report on the assault, the United Nations concluded that the Israeli army killed dozens of Palestinians in a camp that is just 0.4 square kilometers and hosts about 15,000 people.

    After the assault, a long debate ensued about the number of casualties. In the immediate havoc that reigned in the camp, the numbers were thought to be very high.

    Israel barred members of a UN commission of inquiry mandated by the Security Council from conducting an investigation, but a subsequent report compiled by the secretary-general concluded that at least 52 Palestinians were killed in Jenin refugee camp.

    Almost 500 Palestinians were killed and another 1,500 injured in the course of Israel’s assault across the West Bank from March to May of 2002.

    However, it was not just the numbers involved that shocked the world at the time, but the brutal nature of an Israeli assault that was unprecedented even in the harsh history of the occupation.

    This brutality can be best appreciated when you visit the camp. This crowded neighborhood was assaulted from the air by helicopter gunships, shelled by tanks from the hills above it and invaded by monstrous vehicles – a hybrid of a tank and bulldozer which the Israelis nicknamed Achzarit, the brutal one, that razed the houses and made the alleys into highways through which tanks could pass.

    The tanks revisited the camp after the operation, usually coming in the dead of night, traumatizing children for years to come with their roar.

    “Geography of disaster”
    I went to the camp last week as part of a visit to Al-Quds Open University’s branch in Jenin.

    We rushed to the city and back from 1948 Palestine (present-day Israel), since the private company that manages the Jalameh checkpoint was to close the gates for the next few days so that Israeli Jews could celebrate Passover, while forgetting the besieged Palestinians in the West Bank.

    The army imposed closure on villages and neighborhoods inside the West Bank and incarcerated millions of people in local enclaves so that Israeli settlers could move around as if this was terra nullius – a land without a people.

    Al-Quds Open University caters for the children, among others, of political prisoners and martyrs. It is hosted in a rented building, with the hope that one day it will be moved to a proper campus – if the millions of dollars needed for its completion can be found. …

    Clear view
    However, there is something else you notice when you are on the hill. You can see the whole region stretching from Jenin, which is in the northern West Bank, down to the Mediterranean Sea. You can see through Marj Ibn Amr – the fertile region also known as the Jezreel Valley – to the city of Haifa on the coast.

    The villages and towns that were there before 1948 were wiped out in the Nakba – the ethnic cleansing of Palestine by Zionist militias. Many of the people who used to live in them were driven to this area and could watch from the hill how their homes and fields turned into Jewish colonies and Jewish National Fund “forests.”

    The connection between what you see from the hill and the horrors of April 2002 is clear. It is yet another reminder of what the late scholar Patrick Wolfe articulated so well when he noted that settler-colonialism is a structure, not an event.

    In the case of Zionism, it is a structure of displacement and replacement, or to paraphrase Edward Said’s words, substituting presence with absence. It began in 1882 with the first Zionist settlements, reached a certain peak in 1948, continued with vehemence in 1967 and is still alive and kicking today.

    The attempt to break down the resistance to the displacement is what occurred in the camp 15 years ago.

    Pictures of the martyrs from 2002 and since cover the walls and streets. Beneath them sits a large number of unemployed youth – Jenin refugee camp has one of the highest unemployment rates of any camp in the West Bank.

    Talking to them it is clear that they are determined not to succumb to despair or apathy. Education offered by Al-Quds Open University is one way of coping with life in the camp and under oppression. But resistance is still an option.

    After all, this is the area from which the most significant anti-colonialist effort by the Palestinians sprang already in the early 1930s: the rebellion led by Izz al-Din al-Qassam.

    It is symbolic that on this visit I met his grandson, Ahmad. We talked briefly about how his grandfather’s historical image is distorted by anyone who compares him to present-day so-called jihadists. He was very far from being one.

    Had the British not killed him in 1935, he would have become the Palestinian Che Guevara. He was a charismatic anti-colonialist leader operating among the people who were the first victims of Zionism in the 1930s – the displaced peasants and tenants driven out of the lands which they had cultivated for centuries. …”

    more @ https://electronicintifada.net/content/jenin-wont-forget-israels-massacre/20221

  3. yonah fredman
    April 19, 2017, 9:08 pm

    I wasn’t yet 12 when the 67 crisis occurred, culminating in the 6 day war. Though I had cousins in israel I had never met them. But I attended a religious Zionist summer camp in 64, 65 and 66. I knew the words to hatikva and Yad l’achim, the bnei akiva youth movement anthem.

    Ben Gurion (in the run up to the war) scolded rabin for the attack on jordan the previous november.

    One cannot say that Ben Gurion alone established the state, but his is certainly the essential personality for understanding the form israel took. ( I read somewhere that BG demanded an i.d. card or t.z. card without Arabic on it and though all other Israelis had Arabic on their teudat zehut, BG did not.) I wonder if sharett had been stronger if he might have guided israel to a compromise with nasser instead of the 56 war.

    If religion x had been a religion of billions returning home in full belief of their religion and conquered the temple mount, the mosques would have been bulldozed.

    But judaism is a religion of millions and not billions and the belief system of moshe dayan, who was the de facto leader of israel at the time, was not a belief in torah, but a belief in the new hebrew man of action, so instead of bulldozing the mosques, the neighborhood by the wall was bulldozed. A type of conquering not as obtrusive as my hypothetical bulldozing of the mosques.

    When I posit an alternate history of no 6 day war, my Zionist friend is appalled at the thought of jerusalem not in our hands.

    When I visit the wall to pray or contemplate, or near the wall to tickle my brain with the heady view of past and present, I am hyper conscious of the occupation and what it entails in the current tense. But I do not dwell on the destruction of homes in the mughrabi quarter. I cannot go back to moshe dayan in his crib and teach him a different ethos. Soldiers conquered jerusalem. Thank God they were wise enough not to bulldoze the mosques. But they behaved like conquering soldiers regarding mughrabi, because that’s what they were.

    The perpetuation of the occupation in the west bank, specifically a settler occupation that gives no vote to the people of the west bank is partially a result of the conquering soldier theme not realizing that it is a theme with limits. (It is also the result of people less secular than dayan and their ideas which complicate a military occupation with the settler occupation.)

    • oldgeezer
      April 19, 2017, 11:45 pm

      @yonah

      You make it sound so sanquine. Oh but for others you would do things properly

      But your hands are tied due to circumstances beyond your control and doubling down on murder and oppression are your only options. You are a victim of circumstances. But a victim for sure.

      It is every bit as disgusting as the prime perpetrators. Excusing yourself is a delusion as people continue to suffer and die.

    • YoniFalic
      April 20, 2017, 6:51 am

      What a diarrhea of hasbarah!

      The racist E European invaders, thieves, and genocidaires like my family destroyed lots of Mosques throughout historic Palestine including some very important ones in the aftermath of the 1967 Aggression.

      http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rare-photograph-reveals-ancient-jerusalem-mosque-destroyed-in-1967.premium-1.436593

      Someone that voluntarily emigrates to Israel to benefit from genocide should be arrested and sent to the Hague for trial under international anti-genocide law.

    • YoniFalic
      April 20, 2017, 6:54 am

      Only a liar, ignoramus, or moron babbles that E European “Jews” (descended almost entirely from relatively recent Slavo-Turk converts) were “returning home.”

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2017, 11:01 am

        “Only a liar, ignoramus, or moron babbles…/…“returning home.”

        Well, “Yoni”, some people can’t face the vast gulf between what was supposed to happen to the Jews, and what actually happened.

        “When I visit the wall to pray” “Yonah”

        He made one visit to Israel years ago.

  4. Kay24
    April 20, 2017, 7:33 am

    The zionists have used the Holocaust for their own devious reasons, using it as an excuse to occupy, steal, and attack anyone who criticizes their policies, yet we have to wonder why, if they really cared for those who suffered this horrible time in history, they have been neglected, and treated badly for years. They have made a business out of getting aid and sympathy using that tragedy. Never again is not for everyone, and the Holocaust survivors deserve much, much more.

    http://forward.com/fast-forward/369509/israel-admits-holocaust-survivors-in-dire-circumstances/

  5. Ossinev
    April 20, 2017, 3:16 pm

    @Yonah
    “But they behaved like conquering soldiers regarding mughrabi, because that’s what they were”

    So that makes it all OK for you then – “conquering soldiers” have special privileges =

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_destruction_of_Warsaw

    • yonah fredman
      April 20, 2017, 4:56 pm

      I would have preferred avoiding the 67 war. Eshkol’s weakness as a leader caused him to hand over the reins of govt. to the generals. That was a sad day.
      I think a judicial process of eviction from the mughrabi neighborhood a la moses, Robert moses, would have been better. The Jewish people have a religious gathering place and that is the kotel, occupied or not, whatever, that is the focus of the books. The place god chose. The porous ness of Jewish identity with converts khazars or whatever, that’s beside the point. There is a Jewish religion with fractures, but mainstream judaism places an emphasis on jerusalem and for generations moving physically to jerusalem was a distant thought and now it’s not, so the dynamic changed.

      I think we are distant from a world of peace and thus talk of god near the word war sounds blasphemous when one idealizes god as preferring peace, love and understanding rather than the natural tumult confusion and indeed violence quite natural to the human species. But positing a loving God I concede that talk of god and war in the same sentence is a profanity.
      But I cannot reverse the course of history.
      God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. God grant me the courage to change the things I can. And God grant me the wisdom to know the difference.
      Among the things billy pilgrim could not change were the past present and future.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2017, 5:59 pm

        “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. God grant me the courage to change the things I can. And God grant me the wisdom to know the difference.”

        Oh, thank God. The way “Yonah” was rambling, slurring and driveling, I was hoping he would end up at an AA meeting.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2017, 9:17 pm

        “I think a judicial process of eviction from the mughrabi neighborhood a la moses, Robert moses, would have been better. The Jewish people have a religious gathering place and that is the kotel, occupied or not, whatever, that is the focus of the books. The place god chose.”

        Why of course, “the place God chose”! (We always have been big in the Kotel-management profession.)
        That gives us the right to claim it by ‘immanent domain’!

      • RoHa
        April 20, 2017, 9:37 pm

        “I would have preferred avoiding the 67 war.”

        I’m sure quite a few other people would have preferred that.

        “The Jewish people have a religious gathering place and that is the kotel, occupied or not, whatever, that is the focus of the books.”

        And Jewish religious requirements are more important than the rights of anyone else.

      • oldgeezer
        April 21, 2017, 12:08 am

        @yonah

        Who wouldn’t have wished to avoid the 67 war. Such an inconvenience wasn’t it. If only everyone had bowed to their masters it would have so much easier and cleaner. It was truly barbaric that the moral and mighty Israelis were forced to kill and expell the others. So terrible of that the most moral idf were forced to slaughter innocents. Antisemites the lot of them.

        You could create a yonah branded line of barf bags with your line of utter cr@&

        It was a war of choice. That is on the record. The celebrations are over the desire to kill and steal. No moral issue. The antithesis. The dregs of humanity. Explain the difference between jsil and daesh if you ever find a credible line.

      • amigo
        April 21, 2017, 11:15 am

        “God grant me the courage to change the things I can ” Yonah (veni , vidi , vici.) Fredman.

        “God grant me an enemy that is weak and unarmed and preferably under age and I will change the things I don,t like and who needs courage..”

        God grant me the support of some wealthy and powerful benefactor who will cover my crimes in the right places and I will march ever forward towards my goal with unfettered serenity. ”

        Yonah , you talk some line of BS.

      • Mooser
        April 21, 2017, 1:48 pm

        “Yonah , you talk some line of BS.”

        Yes, but he gets it from the best of models. In fact, they share quite a few lines.

      • yonah fredman
        April 21, 2017, 4:09 pm
  6. yonah fredman
    April 21, 2017, 4:31 pm

    Actually I would prefer that the Jewish people ( or however you describe that term so as to remove the national or ethnic connotations) should not focus on the western wall, which is just a retaining wall and stake its claim on the temple mount itself. no bulldozers, just throngs of people. but that is not where the jewish people are or where the islamic or palestinian people are, so once i stop imagining i rehash the facts.
    fact: the jews evolved in various parts of the world where the talmud and rabbinic authority represented their spiritual/temporal interests with varying degrees of success. when the industrial revolution catapulted europe into the modern age, leaving the middle eastern people behind in the dust, the jews were adequately placed to play a prominent role in the evolving information urban society. Unfortunately vast numbers of Jews were located under the rule of the czar, and russia although european was (is?) essentially backward and the inability of the czar to digest the jews (as jews) reacted instead with animus towards the jews, this led to massive instability with three manifestations: emigration, socialism/anti czarism and zionism. zionism was the least of the three (at least until february 1917) and had it not been for the fact that britain thought it might continue to rule the world and zionism might help them in this plan, the balfour declaration wouldn’t have happened. and the league of nations gave the mandate for palestine to the brits, with explicit mention of the jewish homeland (and explicit limits on the consequences of this homeland) and then when the post war era saw the eruption of polish independence overlapping with polish antisemitism and this coinciding with the limitations placed on immigration to more desirable destinations, the population of jews in palestine went from 85,000 in 1920 to 170,000 in 1929 and then with the advent of hitler the jewish population went to 400,000. Once we (the jews) achieved that level of population it was a long shot that anyone could have stopped zionism.
    now, i can chant om from here to tomorrow but it won’t change the fact that jewish nationalism as a reaction to the hitler disaster was inevitable. and thus my assertion that israel should have bulldozed the neighborhood after a suitable municipal eminent domain is totally related to politics, reality, this world and not utopia.
    morality is for you white people whose grandparents died in bed. i’ll take reality any day.

    • Mooser
      April 21, 2017, 5:21 pm

      “morality is for you white people whose grandparents died in bed.”

      “You white people”? Okay “Yonah”. Nobody knows the trouble you’ve seen.
      Trapped between the “white people” and the “Arabs”. Is that where us Jews are stuck?

      • RoHa
        April 22, 2017, 5:03 am

        Dear Uncle Mooser,

        I need your expert advice again. Jon s presented Judaism thusly:

        “Instead, here’s a set of laws to live by and deeds to perform. Live according to those laws and you’ll be fine. You’ll find yourself living a good, moral, life, and you’ll belong to a community based on shared laws and traditions.”

        Which sounds pretty good.

        But Yonah – staunch defender of Judaism, Jewish tradition, Jewish community – abjures morality in favour of realpolitik, as though he were reinforcing the anti-Semitic tropes Yoni Falic invoked.

        What am I to believe about this Judaism stuff and morality? Is there a connection?

        Please help.

        Confused,

        Brisbane

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2017, 4:32 pm

        “What am I to believe about this Judaism stuff and morality? Is there a connection?”

        Yes there is, and “Jon s” supplied it: The connection is “belonging”. If you “do” something and it increases your “belonging”, it must be moral.

    • Mooser
      April 21, 2017, 5:30 pm

      “Actually I would prefer that the Jewish people ( or however you describe that term so as to remove the national or ethnic connotations)”

      I bet you would. And here’s your free “Jew sui generis” lapel-button. Or you can pin it on your “Make America Great Again” hat.

    • Mooser
      April 21, 2017, 5:42 pm

      .” and thus my assertion that israel should have bulldozed the neighborhood after a suitable municipal eminent domain is totally related to politics, reality, this world and not utopia”

      Are you really going to argue (and you’ve doubled down on it) the process of “municipal eminent domain” is applicable to this?

      Gee, “Yonah”, are you stupid, or are you crazy, or are you taunting us?

      And don’t forget to watch out for those “white people” and their (ewwww) morality. We don’t need no stinkin’ morality.

      • RoHa
        April 28, 2017, 12:55 am

        “but all acts oriented towards Jewish independence, including attacks on the British and including obliviousness to Palestinian notions of fairness are acceptable, because the overriding danger to the jews required tunnel vision.”

        You really have rejected morality. Your main concern is “good for the Jews”, and for that you are prepared to accept death and destruction for non-Jews.

        If Israeli Jews share your attitude, the Palestinians and Israeli Jews will not be able to arrive at a modus vivendi. Living together requires justice and trust, but how could the Palestinians trust people who lack morality, and think only of their own benefit?

    • RoHa
      April 21, 2017, 8:57 pm

      And those white people whose grandparents died in battle against the Nazis? Can they reject morality?

      • yonah fredman
        April 22, 2017, 3:26 am

        I really don’t reject morality. But the miscreants here who preach morality are so full of crap that I react to the environment.

        The advent of zionism was a body blow against the Palestinians. And it is the Palestinians I owe and not the sewer crawlers of mondoweiss comments.

        BG had tunnel vision and accomplished something quite real. But one cannot imagine a self respecting Palestinian not hissing and booing BG when he comes on the stage.

        Is it possible for palestinians and yehudim to work together in the land. I believe it is. But currently that is not the primary fact, which is an utter disdain by most jewish nationalists for Palestinian political respect.

        I believe the development of zionism was natural and organic to Jewish history and the tumult of Europe 1881 to 1945 naturally had a nationalist reaction expressed by the Jewish people.

        Thus for me there is a clash between two natural forces: Jewish nationalism and Palestinian nationalism. Questions about morality are interesting, but historical dynamics are quite real and there is a singular lack of seriousness here regarding a historical dynamic. Yes it is relevant to label zionism as analogous to x, y or z but as amateur historians it is of equal importance , at least, to realize that BG and the movement reacted to something real and created something real.

        In 200 years somehow the conflict will fade in comparison to the common future that yehudim and Arabic speakers will have in common.

        But to return to the present tense.

        The reality is that since 2008 thousands of palestinians have been killed by jews flying the flag of Jewish nationalism. When rabin was prime minister I had hope that there was an attempt to forge a future together with the Palestinians, but from here that looks like a mirage.

      • RoHa
        April 22, 2017, 6:30 am

        Yonah, is that just a long-winded way of saying that you don’t like people pointing out the immorality of Zionism and Zionists, or are you trying to argue that the historical realities count as a justification or an excuse for Zionism?

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2017, 11:53 am

        “I really don’t reject morality. But the miscreants here who preach morality are so full of crap that I react to the environment.”

        “Yonah”, I think your comments will change a lot of people’s minds about Zionists and Zionism. Perhaps even about Jews, too. You could really teach people to have different expectations, by being so frank, lucid and convincing.
        The only problem, of course, is for the rest of us to live up to the standard you set.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 22, 2017, 4:06 pm

        And it is the Palestinians I owe and not the sewer crawlers of mondoweiss comments.

        so why routinely post here if you’ve a debt to pay off elsewhere.

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2017, 4:22 pm

        “so why routinely post here”

        “Yonah” does not routinely post here.
        Whenever “Yonah” isn’t actually posting here, he’s never posting here again.
        But then some sewer-dweller forces “Yonah” to break his silence, for the last time.

      • eljay
        April 22, 2017, 6:32 pm

        || yonah fredman: I really don’t reject morality. … ||

        But, hypocritically, you really don’t consistently accept it.

      • MHughes976
        April 22, 2017, 9:41 pm

        There is a famous statement in philosophy called ‘Reply on behalf of the Fool’ – this is Reply on behalf of the Rat or Cry from the Sewer.
        It seems to be admitted that something wrong is going on, that the Palestinians have, to put it mildly, not received their due. You may say that this is between Israelis and Palestinians only – but Westerners too have continually failed thr Palestinians and many of us think that our own societies have gone wrong and in their own way need to make amends. The whole constitution and whole idea of groups like the Mondoweiss commenters is that we object to something that is, now seemingly by agreement, morally wrong. We find ourselves opposed by those whose whole idea is that the moral wrong does not need to be undone and who object to our objections. It is possible that we may get angry and speak unwisely but is it likely, is it even conceivable, that the basic purpose of resisting a moral mistake in the societies where we belong puts on a moral level actually below those who are making the mistake – makes us, in comparison with them, essentially vermin?

      • yonah fredman
        April 24, 2017, 4:48 pm

        M Hughes- as a rule your participation is an addition. Let all the hecklers and supporters of Anne Frank denial ism speak in the name of morality. It’s a good cause and even a stopped clock has a right to be right twice a day.

        Certainly the flingers of words are best off pursuing ultimate fairness and applying their visions of a better world to any issue at hand.

        Wouldn’t it be great if the minds of all israeli jews were replaced tomorrow by the minds of avrum Burg peter beinart, yossi beilin, uri avnery and yeshayahu leibowitz. Sure they would not go far enough to satisfy the moralists who see a blank slate and seek blank slate justice, but they’d go far enough for me. If I am with them and thus labeled a hypocrite by say, cornel west, I’ll live with it. (Although west strikes me as realist enough to reach a peace with the above mentioned.)
        The problem or shall I say the different dynamic arises when bibi is in charge and the avrum Burg peace plan is as distant as it is. Then the floor gets slippery.
        The Palestinians got and are getting a raw deal. I understand why one might desire to press reset and declare some laboratory perfect government and with a magic wand declare it the new rule. I think such thoughts are useful particularly when more useful thoughts (avrum burg) are treated as disposable.
        But less perfect solutions in fact might fit the reality better than perfect solutions.
        And excuse me for being short with the idiots who want to tell me what a jew is or isn’t. They can say what morality dictates, but then when they tell me who I am and who I am not, i toss them into a pile with the Anne Frank denialists and call them sewer denizens.

      • Mooser
        April 24, 2017, 7:56 pm

        “i toss them into a pile with the Anne Frank denialists and call them sewer denizens.”

        “Yonah!” what a rant! Dial it back. Stay cool, boy!

        Don’t get hot, cause man, you got some high times ahead. Take it slow, Grand-Daddy-O, and you can live it up and die in bed!

      • Mooser
        April 24, 2017, 8:08 pm

        “And excuse me for being short with the idiots who want to tell me what a jew is or isn’t.”

        “Yonah” nobody has ever accused you of that! But here is your chance, so in a few short words, tell us:

        What is a Jew?

        And we will use your definition from now on.

      • MHughes976
        April 24, 2017, 8:38 pm

        Thanks for kind word, Yonah. Really appreciated and reciprocated. But were we not discussing the world of 67, of the triumph of the new Hebrew action man ( to quote you approximately), rather than the world of 44 and Anne Frank’s suffering?

      • eljay
        April 24, 2017, 8:54 pm

        || yonah fredman: … Wouldn’t it be great if the minds of all israeli jews were replaced tomorrow by the minds of avrum Burg peter beinart, yossi beilin, uri avnery and yeshayahu leibowitz. Sure they would not go far enough to satisfy the moralists who see a blank slate and seek blank slate justice, but they’d go far enough for me. … ||

        jon s has used the term “perfect justice” to dismiss the idea of a just and moral solution to I-P. I think it’s cute that you came up with your very own term (“blank slate justice”) instead of re-using his.

        But it’s no surprise that, like jon s, you advocate a resolution to I-P that, among other things:
        – allows Israel to continue to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”;
        – absolves the “Jewish State” of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR); and
        – absolves Zionist (war) criminals of responsibility and accountability for their past and on-going (war) crimes.

      • yonah fredman
        April 25, 2017, 5:35 am

        Eljay- I hereby give my proxy vote regarding rights of return and future immigration policy to amira hass. Satisfied now?
        I still assert the validity of the Zionist movement up until may 8, 1945 and thus accept responsibility for the cause and effect up until today.
        Politics is important. More important than morality?
        In my vision I am on the Jordanian side of the Allenby bridge and the crowds of excited people, Palestinians are rushing across to the other side. And because I am with them, they invite me to come with them. And I refuse. They are running towards conflict and violence and I don’t want to go there. I walk away from the crowd.

      • eljay
        April 25, 2017, 7:53 am

        || yonah fredman: Eljay- I hereby give my proxy vote regarding rights of return and future immigration policy to amira hass. Satisfied now? … ||

        The moral feebleness inflicted upon you by Zionism gives me no satisfaction.

        || … I still assert the validity of the Zionist movement up until may 8, 1945 and thus accept responsibility for the cause and effect up until today. … ||

        You “accept responsibility” for the evils of Zionism knowing you’ll never face any consequences for your heroic stand. Colour me unimpressed.

      • RoHa
        April 26, 2017, 2:11 am

        What do you mean by “the validity of the Zionist movement up until may 8, 1945”?

        “Politics is important. More important than morality?”

        And what do you mean by politics?

      • yonah fredman
        April 26, 2017, 10:04 am

        Roha- with the perspective of history the primary danger to jews was eliminated with the defeat of the nazis. Until that point the overriding concern needed to be to strengthen the Jewish independence in the land. Attacks on civilians, of course, must be condemned, but all acts oriented towards Jewish independence, including attacks on the British and including oblivious ness to Palestinian notions of fairness are acceptable, because the overriding danger to the jews required tunnel vision.

        Politics is the attempt to create a modus Vivendi between the Palestinians and the Zionist jews. Such an agreement will weigh claims based upon reality and practicality, which will take into account might alongside with right.

      • eljay
        April 26, 2017, 10:54 am

        || yonah fredman: … with the perspective of history the primary danger to jews was eliminated with the defeat of the nazis. Until that point the overriding concern needed to be to strengthen the Jewish independence in the land. … ||

        No it didn’t. The injustices taking place in Europe did not confer to the Jewish citizens of European homelands a right to commit injustices in foreign lands (incl. Palestine).

        || … Attacks on civilians, of course, must be condemned, but all acts oriented towards Jewish independence … are acceptable, because the overriding danger to the jews required tunnel vision. … ||

        y.f., you are a sick human being.

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2017, 12:52 pm

        Politics is the attempt to create a modus Vivendi between Palestinians and Jews…”

        A Vivendi for all seasons!
        Accomplished, no doubt, by “immanent domain”.

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2017, 12:59 pm

        Funny, “Yonah” can imagine anything happening to the Jews, except what is actually happening to the Jews.

        Nor can he possibly see how Jewish resources (money and people) might ever fall below the level required or be diluted too far to maintain Israel in its accustomed intransigence. “No trauma ‘long us!”

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2017, 11:35 am

        “Yonah” will trade morality for the fantasy that Jews have enough power to abandon morality, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

      • yonah fredman
        April 28, 2017, 1:20 pm

        I was very clear in my later message that survival overrode morality in the context before May 8, 1945, which was VE day. With our knowledge of what the Nazis in fact did to our people, I do not think that such a retrospective view allows us much leeway regarding attempts to survive that took place before the defeat of Nazi Germany. After that defeat, even though there were other egregious Jew hating moments , particularly emanating from Stalin, I do not feel that the same carte blanche is appropriate.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2017, 1:40 pm

        ,” I do not feel that the same carte blanche is appropriate.”

        “Yonah” only feels this way because he is a good person. The fact that (of all things!) Judaism has the power to demand moral carte blanche from the world, he never doubts!

        And the more we Jews intermarry, the more religious denominationalism, and the less anti-semitism, the more powerful we Jews become. Right “Yonah”?

      • eljay
        April 28, 2017, 2:03 pm

        || yonah fredman: I was very clear in my later message that survival overrode morality in the context before May 8, 1945, which was VE day. With our knowledge of what the Nazis in fact did to our people, I do not think that such a retrospective view allows us much leeway regarding attempts to survive that took place before the defeat of Nazi Germany. … ||

        So, according to your morality-free Zionist “logic”, the Yazidi people have every right:
        – to migrate en masse to Israel from the Middle East and from countries all over the world; and
        – to subjugate, expel or kill Jews in order to set up a supremacist “Yazidi State”.

        I don’t accept this premise. I’m surprised you do.

        No, of course you don’t. You’re a Zionist hypocrite who believes that “necessary evils” are what Jews get to do to others, not what others get to do to Jews.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2017, 3:12 pm

        .” With our knowledge of what the Nazis in fact did to our people…”

        “Our people”. “Yonah”? Surely you don’t include antisemites in “our people” do you?

        “I think that antisemitism is a bit deeper than that and those who hate judaism are antisemites. which puts critics of judaism or those alienated from the strict observance of their parents wishing to water down judaism in the boat of being slightly antisemitic”“YonahFredman” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/wondering-jew/?keyword=boat#sthash.4DaamaHl.dpuf

        So one day, when it suits you, we are “our people”, but another day about, oh, 75% or more of Jews are “antisemitic”.

        Make up your mind. You gonna go for quantity, or quality?

    • eljay
      April 21, 2017, 11:56 pm

      || yonah fredman @ April 21, 2017, 4:31 pm ||

      That’s a lot of words to say that:
      – acts of injustice and immorality committed against Jews justify acts of injustice and immorality committed by Jews;
      – Jews are entitled to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them; and
      – the religion-based identity of “Jewish” comprises a “right” to a religion-supremacist state in as much as possible of Palestine.

      You could at least have thrown the Palestinians a bone and let them know that the “necessary evil” of ethnic cleansing is “currently not necessary”.

      Kidding aside: In reality, this world and not utopia, how many Israeli Jews are non-Jews allowed to kill and how much of Israel are non-Jews allowed to steal, occupy and colonize as a reaction to the “Jewish State” disaster?

      C’mon, now, don’t be shy – morality is for you white people whose grandparents died in bed.

    • Froggy
      April 30, 2017, 3:31 pm

      Yonah “morality is for you white people whose grandparents died in bed.”

      Do you mean these grandparents?

      http://meilleurs-marbriers.com/actualites/le-cimetiere-americain-de-colleville-sur-mer/

      Or these grandparents?

      https://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=2201676

      Or these grandfathers?

      http://www.dday-overlord.com/img/normatoday/cim/bay/cimetiere_bayeux_02.jpg

      These grandfathers were Allied soldiers and they didn’t die in bed.

  7. justice48
    April 22, 2017, 2:37 am

    The Moroccan Quarter (Haret el Magharibah) was built 800 years ago. It was mainly inhabited by pilgrims from North Africa. It was destroyed by Israeli bulldozers in June 1967. A woman was buried in her house under the rubble. Palestine Land Society documented the destroyed houses (see map) and kept a record of the names of house owners. The final report will deposited at UNESCO.

  8. Ossinev
    April 22, 2017, 8:37 am

    @Yonah
    “had a nationalist reaction expressed by the Jewish people”

    This is at the core of what we Mondoweiss “sewer crawlers” see as the big problem with Zionism. Jews are followers,practitioners,devotees call it what you like of a religious cult whether or not their membership,affiliation,subscription call it what you like was a result of conversion to Judaism this morning,yesterday,last year,10 years ago ,50 years ago.,100 years ago,200 years ago as nationals of individual countries. The baseline of the Zionist myth is that all these different practitioners of Judaism whatever the colour of their skin be they nationals of Poland,Russia, Britain Venezuela,America,Britain,France,Morocco,Iran,Ethiopia you name it are all the supra national Jewish people and thus have these exclusive Premier Class citizenship rights in Palestine.

    In terms of basic straightforward logic us “sewer crawlers” believe this to be patent bollocks.
    BTW The source of the smell in all of this is Zionism itself.

  9. YoniFalic
    April 22, 2017, 10:21 am

    Racist Jewish/Zionist obsession with the Western Wall is a rather recent phenomenon. Before Zionist indoctrination very few E. European “Jews” like me had any interest whatsoever in the Wall or in Jerusalem.

    In the 16th century some Spanish Jews developed an interest probably as a response to the Expulsion. In the early 19th century some religious E Euro Jews, who moved to Palestine where they could solicit charity beyond the Polish Jewish community, which lacked funds to support kolalim because of the economic collapse of Polish territories, also developed an interest in the Wall — probably in imitation of the practices of Polish and other Slavic pilgrims.

    Only in the 20th century do hate-filled secular “Jewish” Zionists begin to fixate on the wall for the purpose of ethnic assertion against the native population.

    http://askelm.com/temple/t000701.htm

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1PzrttiPfjMa1NBYzNhdVB3bWM

    The current fixation of Jews on the wall deserves only scorn.

    As an historian of E European Jewish heritage, I can list many E European sites far more historically significant to people like me than the Wall.

    • catalan
      April 22, 2017, 11:27 am

      “As an historian of E European Jewish heritage,”
      Yoni, you say are a Historian (with a ph d and JD ). Are you in academia and if so, where do you teach? Or do you publish books/articles and if so, what are their headlines? I am just curious because I want to see if your views have been subjected to appropriate peer review. Otherwise, you can say anything, like talknic, etc, there is no control what you say in a blog.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 22, 2017, 12:54 pm

        just curious because I want to see if your views have been subjected to appropriate peer review.

        hmm, would yoni relinquish his online anonymity for your curiosity catalan? my hunch is no.

      • YoniFalic
        April 22, 2017, 3:16 pm

        I have a fellowship and work in an economics research group.

        I am not sure anyone in this forum is interested in my articles on the arendar system, but I know the standard tactics of Zios, who want to persecute those that diverge from Zionist beliefs.

        When I make a comment, I usually provide a link citing a genuine or eminent scholar to provide support.

        Does Catalan reveal his true identify? Why should I?

      • Annie Robbins
        April 22, 2017, 3:34 pm

        no reason yoni, i find value in your comments (as well as most of our anonymous posters) and musings regardless of your identity.

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2017, 3:37 pm

        “Does Catalan reveal his true identify?”

        Maybe not, but “catalan” is very good at revealing his character and attitudes. Doesn’t even try to disguise them.

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2017, 4:04 pm

        “I am not sure anyone in this forum is interested in my articles on the arendar system”

        Well, I looked it up to find out:

        “Arendar® 2009 Suite from VI Technology, an Aeroflex company. Arendar® 2009 Suite is an enterprise software solution that utilizes a modular architecture, integrated security, comprehensive API and web accessibility to shorten test cycles and speed time-to-market.”

        Nah, that dull IT stuff doesn’t interest me, no matter how ironic.

      • catalan
        April 22, 2017, 4:54 pm

        “Maybe not, but “catalan” is very good at revealing his character and attitudes” – mooser
        Mooser,
        You have to understand that your works of charity – working with the homeless of Calcutta, donating thousands after Katrina, building homes in Gaza – these types of things mere mortals like me rarely do. You will be pleased to know however that recently I decided to switch to the Kirkland brand of hummus, I used to buy the packs from Sabra. This is a win win because Kirkland is both better AND cheaper. Also, I figure, with each Kirkland hummus, I am “pushing” (to use Kaisa’s word) a settler out of his home in Maale so that he can buy a home in Israel proper (Beersheba, Tel Aviv, or Byalistok, depending on which mondoweiss commenter is speaking.) So I feel better now, I feel like I am an honorary member of the liberation movement, even though my motivation was price more than anything. But surely I am helping – less Israeli hummus eaten in New Mexico literally helps solve this problem. Once we fix that one I think we need to look into the Kosovo situation. Corsica too.

      • YoniFalic
        April 23, 2017, 10:57 am

        In another life I might have made a career in the software industry.

        This is the arendar system that I have studied.

        http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/arenda-jewish-virtual-library

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2017, 12:10 pm

        “catalan”, as I said before, I am a chronically unsuccessful fisherman.
        I sure wish I could fish the stream you come from.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2017, 12:24 pm

        “This is the arendar system that I have studied.”

        Is that an “enterprise…solution” with “modular architecture” which speed “time-to-market”?

      • Eva Smagacz
        April 24, 2017, 9:11 pm

        Arenda systems I learned about at school also have to do with history of agriculture and not with IT, but my discussing the subject would surely raise the heckles of Yonah.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2017, 3:15 pm

        “You have to understand that your works of charity…”

        Yeah, I get it “catalan” only God has the right to criticize Israel, but not mere imperfect mortals. And nobody hears Him kvetching about it.

        (I still think “Arendar” is a funny name for a business software, considering.)

  10. catalan
    April 22, 2017, 1:26 pm

    “hmm, would yoni relinquish his online anonymity for your curiosity catalan? my hunch is no.” –
    My hunch is no as well. That means that Yoni could also be a Vietnamese college student or a Russian girl. I would not be entirely surprised if he is a right wing Israeli too because all this stuff about Slavo Turks and hanging of Zionists borders a caricature. Either way, that means that his calling himself a historian and a lawyer is meaningless.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 22, 2017, 3:20 pm

      Either way, that means that his calling himself a historian and a lawyer is meaningless.

      ah, the punchline. and from an anonymous person who’s continually telling us about himself, supposedly. everything we see and hear, we give all the meaning that is has for us. if he’s meaningless to you why not ignore him?

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