Ten days of awe: standing with whom?

Middle East
on 123 Comments

So it’s Rosh Hashanah, the Day of Judgment and Remembering, and we of the Jewish persuasion are beginning ten days of intensive reflection that culminates in Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. We are urged to engage in self-examination, both of our personal lives and of our behaviors and attitudes in the complex world in which we live and contribute. This introspection and renewal involves taking personal responsibility for our destiny and the destinies of our communities, being unsparingly honest, and actively apologizing and forgiving. I love this part of my tradition because words are not enough; there are no Hail Marys, there is no forgiveness from on high, and at the end of the day, we actually have to DO better in our relationships with ourselves and our world. If you are a spiritual person, you have to work on that too in the here and now; there is no backup heavenly place where everything will come out fine.

As a secular Jew who finds our traditions and culture part of the bedrock of my psyche, I am obsessed by a topic that is most fraught and perilous in the Jewish community. We are besieged by forces right and left with the message that Judaism is Zionism and uncritical support of Israel is a core Jewish value, in fact the only nonnegotiable ticket to community acceptance. For these reasons at this time, I cannot ignore my relationship to Israel/Palestine. For me, this annual introspection invites an honest evaluation of history in all its voices, a recognition of the behavior and policies of the pioneers and fighters who created the State of Israel, an examination of the foundations of modern political Zionism and its current day consequences, and ultimately a willingness to express regret and apology. This is a perfect topic for the Ten Days of Awe and fully within our prophetic tradition which is focused on issues of justice.

So, how do we define ourselves as Jews in the Diaspora while living in the era of a hyper Jewish nationalism? For the me the first step is examining the realities and framing of history and claiming it in our own voice. The Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, in his A History of Modern Palestine, notes that early Zionism was a European phenomenon with a clear disregard for indigenous populations. Early Zionists relied (cautiously) on the goodwill of colonial powers. (The Jewish homeland could have been in Palestine, Argentina, or even Uganda.) The Zionists carved out territory in Mandate Palestine as a haven from European persecution (which was an understandable motivation given the pogroms and anti-semitism of the time), and this became a clearly settler colonial movement when it focused on a national revival in the land of Palestine for Jews at the exclusion of the people actually living there. This was both an intellectual concept focused on the predicament of European Jewry (which was largely described as endless persecution and anti-semitism despite Spinoza, Marx, Freud, Einstein, etc.,) and also a practical solution for getting rid of the Jews in Eastern Europe and plopping them someplace else.

The work of Theodore Herzl, one of the leaders of this movement, was based on an intellectual Jewish proto-Zionism born in in the 1850s in Eastern Europe. This was the first invention of Judaism as an ideology of a nation rather than as a religion guided by scripture and history. Leaders like Chaim Weizmann who mixed nationalism and revolutionary socialism, heightened by the fact of pogroms and the policies of the Russian czar, were called called territorial Zionists.

Bolstered by the Dreyfus affair in France, Herzl became convinced that assimilation was impossible, European anti-semitism inevitable, and it was time to leave for Zion. He developed the imperative that Jewish survival depended on the colonization and building of a nation state using the model of a European nation state, but with Jewish farmers, laborers, engineers, skilled workers, the new muscular, bronzed, fighting Jew. This was all intermixed with Jewish socialist movements and the right wing drifting towards fascism types like Jabotinsky. Much was funded by Baron Edmond de Rothschild, (no relation).

At 1897 at the First Zionist congress in Basle, the rabbis sent to check out the Holy Land, famously telegraphed back, “The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man.” Exclusive Jewish sovereignty in a foreign land was controversial and opposed by religious rabbis as well as many intellectuals. Everyone knew this was not land without a people. The religious and thinking folks believed that the Jewish people were essentially a spiritual group and that the creation of the state, which entailed guns, politics, bureaucracy, and money, would mean the empowerment of Judaism and the death of Judaism as a philosophy, an ideal, and a faith.

One of the most well-known thinkers was Martin Buber who advocated a bi-national Palestine based not on a colonial alliance but on cooperation and parity between Jews and Arabs. He saw Zionism as the self-expression of a rebirth of a Jewish collective that could only exist on its own soil with its own language, unpolluted by the trappings of a modern state. In a 1949 letter, he clearly warned of what was to come (and did).

“And when this hollow peace is achieved, how then do you think you’ll be able to combat ‘the spirit of militarism’ when the leaders of the extreme nationalism will find it easy to convince the young that this kind of spirit is essential for the survival of the country? The battles will cease — but will suspicions cease? Will there be an end to the thirst for vengeance? Won’t we be compelled, and I mean really compelled, to maintain a posture of vigilance forever, without being able to breathe? Won’t this unceasing effort occupy the most talented members of our society?
Yes, a goal has been reached, but it is not called Zion…[The] day will yet come when the victorious march of which our people is so proud today will seem to us like a cruel detour.”

Yehuda Magnes wrote that Diaspora Jews and Jews living in Eretz Israel were equally important to the Jewish nation. He worked for years on reconciliation with the Arab population and before 1948 objected to a particularly Jewish state. He and the group Berit Shalom, found in 1925, advocated a binational state where Jews and Arabs would share equal rights. Magnes also predicted that even if Jews won the war, that this would produce a series of wars that would never end. While neither Buber nor Magnes used this language, they both understood on some level that as Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi described, ethnic cleansing was to be Zionism’s “original sin.” Neither understood the colonial aspects of Zionism.

(Much of this summary thanks to Eve Spangler, Understanding Israel/Palestine: Race Nation, and Human Rights in Conflict.)

I would like to point out that the death knell for the anti-Zionist movements of the Jewish left and right was the Holocaust. In the wake of the most awful example of the evil of Jewish powerlessness, the anti-Zionism of all camps felt untenable and most Jews endorsed a need for Jewish power above all else as a survival strategy. Most Jews became Zionists, although few Jews packed their bags at LaGuardia, waved goodby to Lady Liberty, and headed for Ben Gurion airport. Israel became an insurance policy, a just in case kind of place for the largely upwardly mobile Diaspora.

If we come back to Rosh Hashanah, why is this conversation so hard? At dinners across the land, after the candles are lit and the pot roast and vegan alternatives are on the table, voices will be raised as families argue about Israel, it is almost a tradition. Look at our cultural self-image, our idea of who we are. We Jews do not commit genocide or massacres, or rapes; we are the “light unto the nations.” My mother was very clear on this: that is how the goyim act, but not us.

So it is exquisitely painful to acknowledge, (particularly after the Holocaust) that one of the consequences of founding the State of Israel was the destruction of an indigenous people who had lived there for centuries, (Jews, Muslims, Christians). These folks were not interested in being colonized or losing land so this conflict is not really about Arabs fighting against Jews, it is about Arabs challenging Zionism which is a political, national movement that privileges Jews over everyone else. This not only challenges our cultural self-image, but acknowledgement of the Nakba, the Palestinian dispossession, devastation, and death in 1948, and the Naksa, the Palestinian dispossession, devastation, and death in 1967, also entails apology, recompense, and reparations. I would argue that this is one of the critical tasks for the Ten Days of Awe.

And these traumas are not a thing of the past. Political Zionism now in practice has produced a settler colonial state founded on the basis of establishing an Arab free state, where Jewish trauma, aspirations, and history are privileged at the expense of everyone else and this continues to this moment. A brutal occupation is celebrating its 50th year of “reclaiming Judea and Samaria” while 800,000 Jewish settlers mostly live well in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Netanyahu promises more. Gaza is dying under ongoing genocidal policies, what Netanyahu calls, “Mowing the lawn.” Since 2008, there have been three massive assaults that have destroyed the infrastructure, much of the function of civilian society, taken or damaged the lives of many thousands of mostly civilians, not to mention the provision of electricity and drinkable water. Add this to the crushing economic and human siege and the utter disregard for the ongoing and deteriorating human catastrophe that I personally bore witness to in March 2015 and January 2017. This cannot be justified by the argument that given the injustices of the world, we have to do this to save ourselves. We are morally corrupted by being able to do this.

In May 2016 the webzine +972 announced that the Israeli human rights organization, B’Tselem, had lost all faith in the Israeli military justice system and was no longer cooperating on behalf of Palestinian victims. “They said 25 years of working with the military ‘has brought us to the realization that there is no longer any point in pursuing justice and defending human rights by working with a system whose real function is measured by its ability to continue to successfully cover up unlawful acts and protect perpetrators.’” NGOs are now viewed as enemies of the (democratic) State of Israel.

So what happens when someone like me leaves the comforts of my bubble and ventures out into the universe of mainstream Jews? Third Place Books in Seattle is located close to four temples, two Ashkenazi and two Sephardic. When my book reading from Condition Critical: Life and Death in Israel/Palestine was announced, StandwithUs and some local temple folks called to express their displeasure at my invitation, but didn’t ask to cancel the reading. I planned some stories from the book interwoven with blogs from my trip in January 2017 and some political analysis. The book store works hard to have good relations in the neighborhood but said it supported an open and civil discussion of important issues. Half the people at my reading came to oppose me.

At the beginning, there were some disruptive folks, one yelled, folks harrumphed and walked in and out and made exasperated gestures, and then when it became clear I was not going to engage in a screaming match and that I was going to continue reading, a number of folks walked out.

During the Q&A, there was a long rambling statement/question from a Jewish Israeli former settler now Seattle-ite who said the conflict is over, no one cares, Israel won, why bother, this is basically a non-issue. I reviewed the various unstable conditions, siege of Gaza, occupation, inequality within Israel, both for Palestinian citizens and Jews of color, immense ongoing human suffering, and said this was inherently an unstable situation, so it was far from “over”. In fact, the more repressive the Israelis get, the more hopeless the Palestinians will get and the more young men will turn to militancy which is very dangerous for Israel. Additionally there are millions of Palestinians in refugee camps and the diaspora living in a political/economic limbo, desperately in need of a resolution. I wondered, if the Germans paid restitution to Israel why is Israel not held to the same standard? Are Palestinians less human? How can you just write them off?

Then there is the question of American Jews whose dedicated support and uncritical love has been central to the Israeli success story. These mostly liberal Jews are finding it increasingly difficult to support Israel and its policies on many fronts. Witness the frantic explosion of hasbara (propaganda and message control) efforts on campuses and the aggressive muzzling of dissent in our own communities.

Some were puzzled over my framing (they shortened it to “Israelis bad, Palestinians good” which was not at all what I was saying). I tried to reframe (based on my own research and the reading of Palestinian and Israeli historians and writers) that this is a settler colonial struggle over land, indigenous people do not usually welcome colonizers or efforts to divide their land, plus the Bible is being used to justify political aims. But attitudes run deep, there was a question about some racist Arab Sesame Street show (didn’t happen) and why would anyone name their kid “Jihad” when it means Holy Warrior. The name is common and actually means struggle, both external and personal to be a better Muslim.

(And by the way, the name Mark is derived from the old Latin “Mart-kos”, which means “consecrated to the god Mars”, i.e., the God of War, i.e., war-like. Now why would anyone name a cute little baby boy that? Give me a break.)

These questions clearly came from the Arabs are distrustful, violent, out to destroy us, not to be trusted until proven otherwise department.

I was told that Palestinians had refused their own state eight times, starting with Sykes/Picot (code Israelis want peace, Arabs are impossible) and I responded, “Why would indigenous people accept colonization by an outside group organized by British colonialists, Jews, the UN? Besides, Yasser Arafat accepted the two state solution in 1988, Saudi Arabia and the Arab League agreed to a two state solution in 2002 and Hamas tacitly accepted two states when it agreed to be part of an election. Plus a recent study looking at Israel and Gaza found that 79 percent of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian. The tragedy is that Israel rejected these offers and was unable to imagine that 78% of Mandate Palestine was actually a very generous offer.

This led into a question about how Jews are indigenous and have a right to their own state. I reminded the questioner that we can’t use biblical claims to justify modern day states, Jews were a small minority until Zionist immigration, Palestine was a multicultural region with Muslims, Christians, and Jews, living together fairly peaceably until the forces of British colonialism and Jewish privilege (Zionism) arrived. I do not see why this gives the Jewish state the right to Jewish dominance and privilege, perhaps the only realistic approach is best to share land and resources as equals.

I was challenged by a questioner stating that anti-semitism and criticizing Israel are the same and I explained at length the difference between hating a people/organization/country solely because it is Jewish from criticizing a state that speaks in my name. I was told that I did not have “skin in the game” like an Israeli citizen or settler. That does not ring true to me when the Israeli government claims to speak for all Jews, when repressive and aggressive Israeli policies act as a trigger (though surely not an excuse) for rising anti-Semitism in the world, where thousands of US police are being trained in Israel, learning how to be an effective army of occupation in Ferguson and Baltimore, and where the annual US foreign aid to Israel (to the tune of $3.2 billion and counting) could well be spent on my schools and bridges and public transportation.

These are the kinds of questions and attitudes coming from a religious community of Jews that are very reflective of the usual Israel messaging that I encounter in this country. Despite my lack of rabbinical cred, as we do the work that inspires these high holidays, I hope that my sisters and brothers will examine Israeli exceptionalism and come to understand that is an obstacle to honest conversation about human, civil, and political rights in the Middle east and impedes a positive search for improving human rights and ending colonialism in this century. I believe political Zionism is a violation of our religious and secular/cultural principals. After centuries of powerlessness, how we as a community handle our new position of power and privilege is critical to the survival of an ethical Jewish tradition as well as a just resolution to a more than century old struggle in historic Palestine that is being fought in our name.

This post first appeared on Alice Rothchild’s site and also on Just World Educational

About Alice Rothchild

Alice Rothchild is a Jewish-American physician. Her most recent book is Condition Critical: Life and Death in Israel/Palestine, from Just World Books. Her previous book is On the Brink: Israel and Palestine on the Eve of the 2014 Gaza Invasion.

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123 Responses

  1. Stephen Shenfield
    September 23, 2017, 11:12 am

    Earlier in the 19th century, before Herzl, there were manifestations of proto-Zionism in western as well as eastern Europe. Moses Hess, for instance, or Napoleon’s appeal to Jewry after his conquest of Egypt.

    • MHughes976
      September 23, 2017, 3:31 pm

      I think of George Eliot (Daniel Deronda) as the most distinguished proto-Zionist, at least in rhe English-speaking world, pre-Herzl. Mind you, Christian Zionism, perhaps with eccentric rather than really distinguished spokespersons, is much older!

  2. Citizen
    September 23, 2017, 12:48 pm

    Astute, informed, well-written essay–Thank you, Alice Rothchild.

    • Mooser
      September 23, 2017, 1:34 pm

      After centuries of powerlessness, how we as a community handle our new position of power and privilege”

      And once power and privilege arrive, they are permanent. So let’s act like it!

      • gamal
        September 23, 2017, 7:23 pm

        An Israeli friend of mines mother asked me immediately upon being introduced to me for the first time.

        “Egypt, used to be such a great country, what happened ?”

        I started laughing he irritably told her to shut up, so I never got the chance to give her my view. He is 20 years younger than me because I wouldn’t have spoken to my mother like that even in private never mind in public, different generations, shit changes.

        Egypt what happened? History ain’t kind to anybody, give it time.

    • maddave
      September 25, 2017, 11:21 am

      This is the most enlightened piece (re: Israel) that I have ever read. As the Holocaust was Hitler’s “final solution” to the Jewish Problem, so the partition of Palestine is “the rest of Europe’s” final solution. Ship’em out and forget them . . . But it ain’t that easy.

  3. jon s
    September 23, 2017, 4:50 pm

    In these days of Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and the days in between, all of us would do well to take the time for reflection, contemplation, soul-searching and repentance. In our families, with our neighbors and colleagues and in regard to the society we live in. They’re not called “Days of Awe” for nothing.

    Regarding Dr. Rothschild’s essay two brief notes:

    1.”At 1897 at the First Zionist congress in Basle, the rabbis sent to check out the Holy Land, famously telegraphed back, “The bride is beautiful but she is married to another man.”
    -the story is a fabrication. Never happened.

    2. Martin Buber and Judah Magnes were indeed among those who advocated a bi-national state. Is Dr. Rothschild aware of any significant support for that concept on the Palestinian side?

    • Mooser
      September 23, 2017, 7:45 pm

      “-the story is a fabrication. Never happened.”

      Too bad. It’s generally believed.

      “2. Martin Buber and Judah Magnes were indeed among those…”

      Who probably could not believe or conceive of the depths of brutality and facism today’s Zionists have sunk to. So they are pretty goddam irrelevant, wouldn’t you say?

      • Naftush
        September 24, 2017, 3:33 am

        Wow. “Generally believed” trumping “never happened.” Think of the potential. As for Buber and Magnes, many others tried, sometimes for decades. They were answered with plenty of “depths of brutality and facism” (sic). See Yosef Gorny, “From Binational Society to Jewish State: Federal Concepts in Zionist Political Thought, 1920-1990.” Or go ahead, don’t see it. Keep up the resistance; there’s nothing like ideological cashing-in on real Palestinians’ wretchedness.

      • Mooser
        September 24, 2017, 11:41 am

        “Wow. “Generally believed” trumping “never happened.” Think of the potential.”

        Just like a bottle of disodium 6-hydroxy-5-((2-methoxy-5-methyl-4-sulfophenyl)azo)-2-naphthalenesulfonate fell in the dough.

      • echinococcus
        September 24, 2017, 2:15 pm

        Mooser,

        The dough would be just as edible. More attractive to those who like bright red.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 12:16 pm

        ” those who like bright red.”

        Oh shoot, I thought that was “Kelly Green”. Got it wrong.

    • Mooser
      September 23, 2017, 7:51 pm

      “all of us would do well to take the time for reflection, contemplation, soul-searching and repentance.”

      Yeah, kicks just keep getting harder to find.

    • Brewer
      September 23, 2017, 9:08 pm

      1. The provenance of the exact “Bride is beautiful” phrase is indeed obscure – most likely a 1919 cartoon.
      Why you feel it necessary to be so pedantic escapes reason however when there are many other verified expressions of the identical sentiment put in less colorful terms:
      “From abroad, we are accustomed to believe that Eretz Israel is presently almost totally desolate, an uncultivated desert, and that anyone wishing to buy land there can come and buy all he wants. But in truth it is not so. In the entire land, it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled; only sandy fields or stony hills, suitable at best for planting trees or vines and, even that after considerable work and expense in clearing and preparing them—only these remain unworked, because the Arabs do not like to exert themselves today for a distant future.” – Ahad Ha’am 1891.
      “When I was first won over to Zionism I was hypnotised by the legend that Palestine was empty and derelict, it was regarded as most disloyal that I should discover and—still worse!—publish that this little territory contained already six hundred thousand Arabs as against one hundred thousand Jews, and that over ninety-eight per cent of its soil was in the hands of non-Jews. Well, consistency may be a political virtue, but I see no virtue in consistent lying.” – Israel Zangwill c1908.

      2. There was some Palestinian support from those who stood to benefit financially – I would term that corruption – but it was minimal. Again I am puzzled as to the point you are trying to make. Is it that you consider Palestinian rejection of Zionism unreasonable behavior? An offense justifying expropriation by force?
      I can think of no people or state that would willingly surrender even partial sovereignty to a minority comprised of mostly illegal immigrants. In any event, the question did not arise – prominent Zionists insisted that they had no intention of establishing a sovereign Jewish state. Churchill tells us:
      at a meeting of the Zionist Congress, the supreme governing body of the Zionist Organization, held at Carlsbad in September, 1921, a resolution was passed expressing as the official statement of Zionist aims “the determination of the Jewish people to live with the Arab people on terms of unity and mutual respect, and together with them to make the common home into a flourishing community, the upbuilding of which may assure to each of its peoples an undisturbed national development.
      It is also necessary to point out that the Zionist Commission in Palestine, now termed the Palestine Zionist Executive, has not desired to possess, and does not possess, any share in the general administration of the country. Nor does the special position assigned to the Zionist Organization in Article IV of the Draft Mandate for Palestine imply any such functions. That special position relates to the measures to be taken in Palestine affecting the Jewish population, and contemplates that the organization may assist in the general development of the country, but does not entitle it to share in any degree in its government.”

      http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1922.asp
      We now know that these public statements were simply deceitful – behind the scenes the intent to displace and rule was always part of the plan.

      • Brewer
        September 23, 2017, 11:26 pm

        On further reflection I think I understand.
        By calling the “bride” story a fabrication you imagine you are dismissing the fact that Palestine was quite densely populated and reasonably well developed before Zionism.
        Either you are incapable of recognizing the fallacy involved or you are deliberately trying to mislead.

      • JosephA
        September 24, 2017, 1:03 am

        Brewer,

        Thank you for so deftly handling such strange questions!

      • Mooser
        September 24, 2017, 11:45 am

        “Why you feel it necessary to be so pedantic escapes reason”

        No it doesn’t. “Jon s’s” sanctimonious pedantry always works on the kids in his Beersheva settlement school, so he reason’s it will work here. He doesn’t know anything else.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 24, 2017, 12:14 pm

        On further reflection I think I understand.
        By calling the “bride” story a fabrication you imagine you are dismissing the fact that Palestine was quite densely populated and reasonably well developed before Zionism.

        i think it’s more than that. a bride is about love, about life partner forever commitment and dedication. ‘population and development’ take the poetic meaning out of it. it’s so much more than that. in the hasbara there’s so often this ‘temporary, just passing thru, all those other arab countries would do’ memes.

        a bride implies the one and only. this is the part zionists want dismissed.

      • jon s
        September 24, 2017, 3:59 pm

        Brewer, “The provenance …is indeed obscure” . In other words, it’s a fake quote. Are you saying that accuracy is unimportant? Well, I believe in the quaint concept that the sources we cite should be accurate and credible.*

        I certainly understand -and respect- the Palestinian opposition to Zionism. It would have been strange had they not actively opposed it, despite the fact that mainstream Zionist leaders and thinkers envisaged living in peace with the Palestinian population, not displacing it.

        * “Never believe a quote you see on the internet” -Karl Marx

      • eljay
        September 24, 2017, 7:25 pm

        || jon s: … I certainly understand -and respect- the Palestinian opposition to Zionism. It would have been strange had they not actively opposed it, despite the fact that mainstream Zionist leaders and thinkers envisaged living in peace with the Palestinian population, not displacing it. ||

        Actually, it is strange that Palestinians actively opposed a Zionism that ensured justice, accountability and equality for all non-Jewish and Jewish citizens of, immigrants to and expats and refugees from geographic Palestine.

        Oh, wait, that’s because such a Zionism never existed. Zionism has always been about Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine.

        So I guess it’s not so strange that Palestinians actively opposed a Zionism that promised to:
        – subjugate them and relegate them to second-class status in a religion-supremacist state; or
        – ethnically cleanse them from their homes and lands.

        But you’re a Zionist, so you know how it is: Ethnic cleansing is “currently not necessary” but, sometimes, it’s a “necessary evil”.

      • Brewer
        September 25, 2017, 3:38 am

        “despite the fact that mainstream Zionist leaders and thinkers envisaged living in peace with the Palestinian population, not displacing it. “

        Exactly who do you think you are kidding?

        “We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. Let the owners of the immoveable property believe that they are cheating us, selling us things for more than they are worth. But we are not going to sell them anything back.” Herzl 1895

        “We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it” Moshe Sharrett 1914

        “Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native [Palestinian] population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop under the protection of a force independent of the local population –an iron wall which the native [Palestinian] population cannot break through. This is, in to, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy.” – Jabotinsky 1925

        “We must continually raise the demand that our land be returned to our possession …. If there are other inhabitants there, they must be transferred to some other place. We must take over the land. We have a great and NOBLER ideal than preserving several hundred thousands of [Palestinian] Arabs fellahin [peasants].” – Menachem Ussishkin 1930

        “The compulsory transfer of the [Palestinian] Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own during the days of the first and second Temples. . . We are given an opportunity which we never dared to dream of in our wildest imaginings. This is MORE than a state, government and sovereignty—-this is national consolidation in a free homeland.” Ben Gurion 1937

        The ethnic cleansing began at least six months before and inspired Arab League intervention on May 15 1948. The War that ensued was lauded by Zionists as a wonderful opportunity to complete the task. Chaim Weizmann referred to it as:
        ” a miraculous clearing of the land: the miraculous simplification of Israel’s task.”

        All of this is now known, it is not controversial among Historians. If you, Jon S, are indeed a teacher and you promulgate such nonsense as posted above to your students one can only conclude that you are either seriously brainwashed, incompetent or deliberately falsifying History.

        ““The provenance …is indeed obscure” . In other words, it’s a fake quote. Are you saying that accuracy is unimportant?”

        As far as the “Bride” story being a “fake” quote, that is not implied by my statement about it being obscure. It has been around for a century or more and referred to by many secondary sources. We have a multitude of primary sources such as Ahad Ha’am who expressed precisely the same notion in more prosaic language, we have masses of photographs and documents that prove conclusively that Palestine was both densely populated (twice the density of the U.S. at the time) and well developed. Whether or not the “Bride” quote is authentic makes not one jot of difference to the facts nor Ms Rothschild’s thesis. Your making an issue of it defines sophistry and indicates that your purpose here has nothing to do with accuracy – it is the reverse, obfuscation.

      • jon s
        September 25, 2017, 3:37 pm

        Brewer,
        Once again that way out-of-context quote from Herzl, who wasn’t even referring to the Palestinians?
        I’ll take the liberty of recycling a comment I wrote not too long ago:
        http://mondoweiss.net/2017/08/charlottesville-jewish-memory/#comment-888511

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 4:34 pm

        “Once again that way out-of-context quote from Herzl, who wasn’t even referring to the Palestinians?”

        Too bad for you. Do you have a way of changing the perception?

      • Brewer
        September 25, 2017, 5:19 pm

        “Once again that way out-of-context quote from Herzl, who wasn’t even referring to the Palestinians?”
        Herzl was referring to Zionism. He tells us that Zionism, from its very inception embraced ethnic cleansing.

        Once again you seize on an insignificant distinction, a trivial nit-pick that makes no impact whatsoever on the overwhelming evidence that this statement:
        “….. mainstream Zionist leaders and thinkers envisaged living in peace with the Palestinian population, not displacing it. “
        …is utterly refuted by the statements of mainstream Zionists.
        The words of Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharrett, Weizmann etc put the question beyond all dispute and they are just the tip of the iceberg.
        I simply cannot fathom what it is you hope to achieve by employing sophistry to deny the Historical record. The nonsense you peddle might have had some currency back in the 50s and 60s, before the documents and diaries became public but today you are simply out of time.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 6:36 pm

        “I simply cannot fathom what it is you hope to achieve by employing sophistry to deny the Historical record.”

        “Jon s” is an “Israeli history” teacher on the Beersheeva settlement. He uses the same techniques and misinformation here because he knows nothing else.

        He is, of course, not a “teacher” in the normal sense of the word, since his ‘teaching’ is directed at a political end other than the good of his students.

        And never having argued about Zionism with anybody other than other Zionists, he can’t understand why all his arguments and “facts” aren’t implicitly accepted. Since there is no reason except anti-semitism to disagree with him.

        And since the world stopped at the apex of Zionist power, and nothing can change that, he is very confident.

      • jon s
        September 26, 2017, 3:56 pm
      • jon s
        September 26, 2017, 4:10 pm

        Brewer,
        You seem to think that producing a fake quote is not important and an out of context quote is an insignificant distinction.
        I think otherwise.
        If the “bride is beautiful” quote is fake, it shouldn’t be cited.
        If you want to quote Herzl’s diary entry from 1895, you should point out the context, and quote the entire passage.
        I’ll repeat: the mainstream Zionist leaders such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, and even Jabotinsky, all envisaged living in peace with the non-Jewish population, not expelling or replacing them.

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 6:02 pm

        “I’ll repeat: the mainstream Zionist leaders such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, and even Jabotinsky, all envisaged living in peace with the non-Jewish population, not expelling or replacing them.”

        Well, duh! There’s got to be some kind of cover story. Got to fool as many people for as long as you can. You’ve got a genocide to obfuscate, and lots on Jews outside of Palestine to fool.

        And if it wasn’t just a Zionist cover-story, why didn’t you listen to them?
        Wait, let me guess, the “Arabs” turned out to be even worse than these gentle Zionists could imagine, and had to be dealt with. Right?

      • Keith
        September 26, 2017, 6:12 pm

        JON S- “I’ll repeat: the mainstream Zionist leaders such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, and even Jabotinsky, all envisaged living in peace with the non-Jewish population, not expelling or replacing them.”

        Terrorizing them and expelling them was an accident? Plan Dalet emphasized multiculturalism? Murdering the Arabs who tried to return to their homes was an act of reconciliation? Jabotinsky’s Iron Wall was to keep the Palestinians from running away? The historical record of what actually happened is abundantly clear and entirely consistent with the fact that Israel could not claim to be Jewish and democratic without a large majority of Jews which would entail massive ethnic cleansing. Jeez, Mondoweiss gives you a lot of leeway concerning Nakba denial.

      • Talkback
        September 26, 2017, 6:13 pm

        jon s: “I repeat: the mainstream Zionist leaders such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, and even Jabotinsky, all envisaged living in peace with the non-Jewish population, not expelling or replacing them.

        ROFL. Benny Morris:
        “Zionist historians, meanwhile, had charged that I had accorded the subject too much significance and that the pre-1948 Zionist leadership had never supported transfer. The newly available material shows that the Israeli critics were wrong: the Zionist leadership in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s, from David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s founding prime minister, through Chaim Weizmann, the liberal president of the World Zionist Organisation, and Menahem Ussishkin and Zeev Jabotinsky, had supported the idea.”
        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jan/14/israel

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 6:17 pm

        “If the “bride is beautiful” quote is fake, it shouldn’t be cited.”

        It’s very apropos and appears in character, and has some provenance. You better get used to hearing it, unless you have some way of stopping it. Do you?

      • jon s
        September 28, 2017, 4:35 am

        Keith,
        Where did I engage in nakba denial? Nakba means catastrophe and it’s undeniable that the Palestinians suffered a catastrophe in 1948.
        That said, I would add that the nakba denial clause in the comments policy severely limits discussion of the events of 1948.

      • Keith
        September 28, 2017, 1:53 pm

        JON S- “Where did I engage in nakba denial?”

        Your statement that “…the mainstream Zionist leaders such as Herzl, Ben Gurion, and even Jabotinsky, all envisaged living in peace with the non-Jewish population, not expelling or replacing them.” is tantamount to denying Jewish Zionist responsibility for the Nakba. That the Zionist leadership had the best of intentions but somehow this “catastrophe” happened despite their desire to live in peace with their Arab brothers. An act of God, perhaps? Denying the deliberate, planned nature of the Nakba is a form of Nakba denial because it denies Zionist intentions and responsibility.

      • Mooser
        September 28, 2017, 5:44 pm

        “That said, I would add that the nakba denial clause in the comments policy severely limits discussion of the events of 1948.”

        Why, just think of the pages of bullshit and pilpul and hypocrisy you could contribute if they only suspended the Naqba denial rule.
        Because you are just so sure, that if you were only given a fair chance, you could prove that you can’t deny something that never happened. Like you just did in your first sentence.

        “Nakba means catastrophe and it’s undeniable that the Palestinians suffered a catastrophe in 1948.”

        Just one of those natural catastrophes Palestinians suffer, nothing to do with Zionism or Jews.

    • Marnie
      September 24, 2017, 1:28 am

      I think Days of Ewww is much more appropriate.

      “all of us would do well to take the time for reflection, contemplation, soul-searching and repentance.”

      To what end jon s? What’s the purpose of this phony bullshit here of all places? No real reflection, contemplation, soul-searching or repentance at all, just a light dust and vacuum of the soul, nothing too heavy or with any real purpose; it is nothing but mockery. If members of the zionist enterprise, here and the rest of the world actually did the work demanded on them on yom kippur, they’d kill themselves.

      • Mooser
        September 24, 2017, 11:53 am

        The High Holy days have been postponed in my state. There’s a harvest to get in and process.

      • jon s
        September 26, 2017, 3:38 pm

        Marnie,
        I’m not perfect, I don’t think that I know everything or have all the answers. I have questions and doubts. These Days of Awe. are a good time for reflection on what we did wrong, what we regret and where we should do better.
        גמר חתימה טובה

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 6:25 pm

        “Jon s”, can you be any more phony? Or any more evasive? Or disclaim any more responsibility?

        And who do you think you are fooling?

      • Marnie
        September 27, 2017, 12:08 am

        @ jon s

        “Marnie,
        I’m not perfect….”

        I KNOW! I’d NEVER accuse you of something like THAT!

        FFS jon s, every time you check yourself in the mirror is a good time to really check yourself! This once a year circle jerk is just a chance to show your friends n’ neighbors how sad you can look and sound.

        And again WTF is it with ‘we’? What a morooon!

      • jon s
        September 27, 2017, 4:01 pm

        Marnie,
        I wish you a good year, g’mar hatimah tovah, may you be inscribed in the Book of Life.

      • Mooser
        September 27, 2017, 6:11 pm

        ” There’s a harvest to get in and process.”

        It is going well. Ten days of awesome!

      • Mooser
        September 27, 2017, 7:28 pm

        “Jon s”, from the mouth of a Zionist, a blessing is a taunt and a curse.

      • Marnie
        September 28, 2017, 12:38 am

        @ jon s

        You’re a provocateur. Like most israelis – angering and provoking people to do wrong and curse God. I see it all the time and everywhere – provocation and incitement. Watch yourself.

    • echinococcus
      September 24, 2017, 3:05 am

      John S outdoes some major Zionists in unconscious cheek.

      Martin Buber and Judah Magnes were indeed among those who advocated a bi-national state

      So frowning what? Bi or straight, it’s all on other people’s land.

    • Talkback
      September 24, 2017, 7:21 am

      Golda Meir: “And I thank God every night that the bridegroom was so weak, and the bride could be taken away from him.”

      The illegitimacy of Israel in a nutshell.

      • Mooser
        September 24, 2017, 1:32 pm

        “Golda Meir: “And I thank God every night that the bridegroom was so weak, and the bride could be taken away from him.”

        Thanks, “Talkback”. I’ll add that one to my list of scurrilous Golda Meir quotes.

  4. Keith
    September 23, 2017, 6:28 pm

    ALICE ROTHCHILD- “After centuries of powerlessness, how we as a community handle our new position of power and privilege is critical to the survival of an ethical Jewish tradition as well as a just resolution to a more than century old struggle in historic Palestine that is being fought in our name.”

    “Centuries of powerlessness” is part of Jewish/Zionist myth-history which creates a false sense of eternal victimhood. Jews have always played an important part in the Gentile societies in which they served as what Yuri Slezkine describes as Service Nomads. Common sense tells us that “centuries of powerlessness” is not a training ground for success, a foundation for the current levels of Jewish power and privilege.

    • Mooser
      September 23, 2017, 7:15 pm

      “Common sense tells us that…”

      Jews sui generis!!

      “our new position of power and privilege”

      Which is, of course, permanent, and not transitory, or even, for the most part illusory. (In relation to what they are trying to do with it.)

  5. Emet
    September 24, 2017, 3:53 pm

    Alice, you are obviously someone who has never tested a Palestinian Muslim on how far he or she is prepared to go to share with Jews and a Jewish State. If you had, you would realize how detached your points are. Jews are trying to survive in a tough neighborhood. You should stand in awe of the true Zionists of today.

    • lonely rico
      September 24, 2017, 7:04 pm

      > emet(ic)

      You should stand in awe of the true Zionists of today.

      AWE – “Reverential fear or wonder”

      FEAR, yes, but not of the reverential sort.

      WONDER, for sure; that Zionist have managed to gain such power, and use it so cruelly to maim, murder, and destroy others, simply because they, the Palestinians, were not of the chosen people.

    • Brewer
      September 25, 2017, 4:18 am

      “Jews are trying to survive in a tough neighborhood”

      Agreed. Expelling nearly a million indigenous people by murder, rapine and mayhem is indeed a tough job. Even tougher is the task of convincing them to like it.

    • Mooser
      September 25, 2017, 11:44 am

      .” You should stand in awe of the true Zionists of today.”

      Kish mir in tuchas. It’s not hard to by the biggest fish in a small pond.
      Mud-skippers do the same thing.

  6. RoHa
    September 24, 2017, 11:27 pm

    I notice she seems to think of Spinoza as a Jew. Isn’t this an anti-Semitic rejection of the order of expulsion given by the leaders of the Amsterdam Jews?

    They made it very clear that he was no longer a Jew.

  7. Emet
    September 25, 2017, 4:01 am

    Alice, you remind me of the Jews in Germany between WW1 and WW2, who were so cocky and sure that they “blended” into the elite Left and were accepted by them. They felt that they were as German as Bavarian Bratwurst, and were promptly dispatched to the gas chambers.
    I hope you never get to learn the lesson that they learn’t but you follow in their footsteps.
    The power and poison that drives the haters is beyond the world in your little bubble.

    • Talkback
      September 25, 2017, 9:55 am

      Emet, that reminds me of Palestinians who regarded the partition of Palestine as a fait accompli were so cocky and sure that they were accepted by Jews. They felt that they would become Israelis and were promptly terroized, massacred, expelled and dispossessed while their villages and properties were destroyed or looted. Some where even raped. I hope you never get to learn the lesson that they learn’t but you follow in their footsteps.

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 10:38 am

        I don’t think it is a “little bubble”. This sounds more like a sort of psychiatric deviation.

      • Emet
        September 25, 2017, 1:44 pm

        Talkback, an episode of “Game of Thrones” sounds more likely to have happened compared to the fiction you have just described. If only they would have done half the stuff you describe then there would not a Palestinian problem today. Your cousins would have returned to Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, to name a few. Are you serious, “They felt they would become Israelis”?
        Where did you get this from? Last time I checked I see they declared war on the Jewish State, with the intention of wiping it off the map, and they still work for this to happen. Wake up man.

      • Misterioso
        September 25, 2017, 4:04 pm

        @Emet

        “Your cousins would have returned to Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, to name a few.”

        It seems like many others, you have been duped by Joan Peters’ long since debunked mountain of mendacity, “From Time Immemorial…”

        To wit:
        Professor Porath, one of Israel’s leading demographic historians, called Peters’ book a “forgery… [that] was almost universally dismissed [in Israel] as sheer rubbish except maybe as a propaganda weapon.”(New York Times, Nov.28, 1985)

        Rabbi Arthur Herzberg, vice-president of the World Jewish Congress, agreed: “I think that she’s cooked the statistics…. The scholarship is phony and tendentious. I do not believe that she has read the Arabic sources that she quotes.”(ibid)

        To again quote Professor Porath: “The precise demographic history of modern Palestine cannot be summed up briefly, but its main features are clear enough and they are very different from the fanciful description Mrs. Peters gives…. [S]he has apparently searched through documents for any statement to the effect that Arabs entered Palestine. But even if we put together all the cases she cites, one cannot escape the conclusion that most of the growth of the Palestinian Arab community resulted from a process of natural increase.” (“Mrs. Peters’ Palestine” New York Review of Books, 16 January 1986.)

        “Where did you get this from? Last time I checked I see they declared war on the Jewish State, with the intention of wiping it off the map, and they still work for this to happen. Wake up man.”

        Reality:
        In 1988, the PLO recognized Israel as a sovereign state within the borders of the 1947 recommendatory only UNGA Partition Plan, Res. 181 (which, for the record, violated the terms of the British Class A Mandate for Palestine and the Atlantic Charter, was never adopted by the UNSC and was grossly unfair to the indigenous Palestinian Arab inhabitants.)

        By signing the 1993 Oslo Accords, the PLO accepted UNSC Res. 242 and thereby agreed to recognize a sovereign Israel within the 1949 armistice lines, i.e., as of 4 June 1967 – 78% of mandate Palestine.

        The PLO also agreed to the US/EU/UN supported 2002 Arab League Beirut Summit Peace Initiative, which offers Israel full recognition as a sovereign state (per UNSC Res. 242, i.e., within its June 4/67 boundaries with possible minor and mutually agreed land swaps), exchange of ambassadors, trade, tourism, etc., if Israel complies with international law and its previous commitments. Fully aware of Israel’s demographic concerns, the Beirut initiative does not demand the return of all Palestinian refugees. In accordance with Israel’s pledge given to the UNGA in 1949 and by signing the 1949 Lausanne Peace Conference Protocol to abide by UNGA Res. 194 regarding the then 800,000 Palestinian refugees as a precondition for admittance to the UN (after being rejected twice), the Arab League’s Initiative “calls upon Israel to affirm” that it agrees to help pursue the “achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem…”

        Along with all Arab states, the PLO, Hezbollah and Iran have also accepted the Arab League’s 2002 Beirut Summit Peace Initiative. (In its revised Charter, April, 2017, Hamas agreed to a Palestinian state based on the 4 June 1967 borders. Not surprisingly, Israel promptly rejected the Hamas overture instead of using it to open a dialogue.)

        Regrettably, then Israeli PM Ariel Sharon summarily dismissed the Arab League’s peace overture, as did Israel in 2008 and thereafter.

        For the record, other peace initiatives that Israeli governments have rebuffed include: U.S. Secretary of State William Rogers’ The Rogers Plan (1969); The Scranton Mission on behalf of President Nixon (1970); Egyptian President Sadat’s land for peace and mutual recognition proposal (1971); U.S. President Jimmy Carter’s call for a Geneva international conference (1977); Saudi Arabian King Fahd’s peace offer (1981); U.S. President Ronald Reagan’s Reagan Plan (1982); U.S. Secretary of State George Shultz’s Schultz Plan (1988); U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s Baker Plan (1989); and the previously noted 1993 Oslo accords signed by Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin that unravelled following the latter’s assassination and subsequent return to power of the Likud party from 1996-1999 under Benjamin Netanyahu; continuation of the Taba II negotiations (2001); the unofficial Geneva Peace Initiative of November/December 2003; and the 2014 Kerry Initiative.

        As for the much touted 2000 Camp David Summit, working in tandem, Barak and Clinton tried to shove a very bad deal down Arafat’s throat. It could only be rejected. Suffice to quote Shlomo Ben-Ami, then Israel’s foreign minister and lead negotiator at Camp David: “Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well.” (National Public Radio, 14 February 2006.)

        The “offer” made in 2008 by then Israeli PM Ehud Olmert was never seen as serious because it lacked cabinet approval, he was under indictment with only a few weeks left in office, had a 6% favorable rating, and, therefore, couldn’t have closed the deal, even if the Palestinians had accepted it. (Olmert was imprisoned.)

        Unfortunately, Israel’s response to every peace overture from the Palestinians and Arab states, has been an escalation of illegal settlement construction in occupied Palestinian and other Arab lands.

      • Talkback
        September 25, 2017, 7:56 pm

        Emet: “Talkback, an episode of “Game of Thrones” sounds more likely to have happened compared to the fiction you have just described.”

        Contrary to you Israeli historian don’t live in denial.

        Emet: “If only they would have done half the stuff you describe then there would not a Palestinian problem today.”

        Embracing your inner Nazi, Emet?

        Emet: “Your cousins …”

        Suffering from compulsive lying, Sheqer?

        Emet: “… would have returned to Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, to name a few.”

        ROFL. Says the supporter of settler colonialism. The only question is if they have legally acquired the citizenship of Palestine before 1948. More than half of the Jews had not.

        Emet: “Are you serious, “They felt they would become Israelis”?”

        Do you actually know how many tried to return and were driven away over and over again? They just´wanted to return to their property and continue with their life.

        Emet: “Last time I checked I see they declared war on the Jewish State, with the intention of wiping it off the map, and they still work for this to happen. ”

        They? The refugees? Are you drunk? Is that Zionist kindgarden history for the educationally impaired? The Palestinians were nearly completely demilitarized after the revolt in the 30s. Nobody “declared war” on a state that only existed as a mere declaration which violated Security Council resolution 46 of 17 April 1948. The Palestinians tried to prevent Zionist terrorist from tearing up their state after a decade of Jewish terrorism. Thirdly the Arabs agreed to an US truce proposal end of April while the Jewish Agency didn’t because they realized that they could set up atheir Jewish Apartheid Junta through war and expulsion. And what has been really happining since 1948 is that this Junta is wiping Palestine of the map. Politically and physically.

        Emet: “Wake up man”.

        Don’t swallow your binkie.

        Get some basic education.

      • Talkback
        September 25, 2017, 10:08 pm

        Boris: “I don’t think it is a “little bubble”. This sounds more like a sort of psychiatric deviation.”

        Says Boris of all people.

      • RoHa
        September 26, 2017, 12:49 am

        “If only they would have done half the stuff you describe then there would not a Palestinian problem today. ”

        If only they had done half the stuff you describe then there would not a Palestinian problem today.

        A “fail” on both grammar and history.

    • Mooser
      September 25, 2017, 1:22 pm

      “Alice, you remind me of the Jews in Germany between WW1 and WW2, who were so cocky and sure that they “blended” into the elite Left and were accepted by them. They felt that they were as German as Bavarian Bratwurst, and were promptly dispatched to the gas chambers.”

      Good point, “Emetic”! Those “cocky and sure” German Jews should have joined the Nazis, instead. That would have changed everything!

    • Marnie
      September 27, 2017, 9:28 am

      Footschtops, footschtops!

  8. Boris
    September 25, 2017, 10:06 am

    Palestinians are as indigenous to Palestine as Americans to America.

    If you realize that it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel, then the whole argument of this article falls on its face.

    • Keith
      September 25, 2017, 10:26 am

      BORIS- “If you realize that it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel, then the whole argument of this article falls on its face.”

      Since when do religious converts become “indigenous” to a foreign land? Conversely, the Palestinian Jews who converted to Islam didn’t suddenly become foreigners. This is so rather obvious that one marvels at the mental gymnastics you perform to defend your mythology.

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 12:47 pm

        Your claim that all contemporary Jews are the descendants of past converts is just plain stupid.

        If there were concessions, it was the other way – Jews converting to other religions.

        The remaining Jews are the descendants of ancient Hebrews and are the oldest nation with the title to its ancestral land.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 1:38 pm

        “The remaining Jews are the descendants of ancient Hebrews and are the oldest nation with the title to its ancestral land.”

        And, don’t forget, we did this by only having sex less than nearly half the time!

        Gosh, ancient Judea must have been such a colorful and diverse place!

      • Keith
        September 25, 2017, 2:04 pm

        BORIS- “Your claim that all contemporary Jews are the descendants of past converts is just plain stupid.”

        I was responding to your ludicrous claim that “…it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel….” You obviously were not referring to the relatively small number of the original Jews who remained in Palestine and didn’t convert to Islam. Rather, you propagandistically attempted to lump all Jews together. The majority of Israeli Jews are not indigenous to Palestine as you were dishonestly claiming. And I never said that ALL contemporary Jews are descendants of past converts, although most are, and the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews who were the majority of the early Zionists most assuredly were. You are engaging in pilpul, nothing more.

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 2:24 pm

        So, in the same post you claim that not all Jews are the descendants of the converts, and then immediately claim that they are.

        Buzz off!

      • Keith
        September 25, 2017, 3:02 pm

        BORIS- “…and then immediately claim that they are.”

        No I didn’t. You are completely lacking in intellectual integrity. No real surprise there.

    • YoniFalic
      September 25, 2017, 10:42 am

      Only a moron, an ignoramus, or a liar claims that Jews are indigenous to Palestine or the Land of Israel.

      The term Jew, Juif, Judío, Giudio, Jude, or Slavic variants of Żyd only apply after 10th century when Rabbinic and Karaite Judaism reach orthodox and orthopraxic forms.

      In the Greco-Roman period we should refer to Judean and Judaic populations. The Judaic population, which includes the Judean population, vastly outnumbered the Judean population. In order words the Judaic population of antiquity consisted primarily (and almost entirely) of non-Judean converts to a Judaic (or Hebraic — to cover Samarian variants) religion.

      Greco-Roman Judeans eventually converted to Christianity and Islam. They are ancestors of native Palestinians and not of modern fake “Jews”.

      Boris, who has a Russian name, probably descends from Russianized Polish Jews, who descended entirely from converts — mostly Slavic or Turkic.

      BTW, I have the same background except that the Jews in Lviv were more Austrianized than Russianized. I don’t waste my time with silly belief in Judean ancestry although I have studied how this stupid idea developed such power among Russianized “Jews”.

      When I read or hear a racist fake “Jew” babble that Jews are indigenous to the Land of Israel in a sick attempt to justify theft of Palestine and genocide of the native population, I immediately think that the Streicher precedent applies.

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 12:33 pm

        HEBREW
        EBREI – Italian
        ЕВРЕЙ – Russian

        The root is obvious. Your long convoluted posts are a sign intellectual constipation periodically resulting in a verbal diarrhea.

      • Emet
        September 25, 2017, 1:57 pm

        falic, check your Bible.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 2:22 pm

        “falic, check your Bible.”

        It’s right there in the night-table drawer. Gideon checked out, and he left it, no doubt, to help with old “Yoni’s” revival!

    • Misterioso
      September 25, 2017, 11:11 am

      @Boris

      Give it up. You’re only making a complete fool of yourself.

    • Antidote
      September 25, 2017, 11:18 am

      Apples and oranges, Boris. If Jews are indigenous to Palestine, so are plenty of non-Jews. Iran, for instance, recognizes pre-Islamic religions like Zoroasterism, Judaism and Christianity as protected minorities, in an Islamic Republic.

      You are therefore only partially correct. It is true that Arab/Muslims view the Middle East as their territory (although they disagree, of course, on the correct version of Islam – but so did and still do Jews and Christians wrt their own religion) where they and they alone call the shots, and shooting each other more than they shoot Jews. A Jewish state, especially one under the protective wings of the Imperial US, is a provocation for many. No different in the US, btw, where, no matter how large the country was or became, no room, or very little room, could ever be found for a Native American state. The idea that the US is a Christian country, a view that defies both history and the US constitution, has long been dominant and continues to cause domestic and international strife.

      Only in that sense does your analogy work, at least to some extent

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 11:46 am

        “Only in that sense does your analogy work…”

        With “Boris” the anality of evil is always on display.,

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 12:37 pm

        Apples and oranges, and then you switch to Iran.

        Name one nation whose claim to what is know today as Palestine is older than that of Jews.

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 2:25 pm

        Sorry, Mu-Mu. Mondo does not let me expand on the anal theme.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 2:27 pm

        “Name one nation whose claim to what is know today as Palestine is older than that of Jews.”

        Some “claim”! Can you force, compel by law Jews to go to Palestine? No, gotta beg them. And if conditions get bad, most who are there can leave. That’s no “claim” on anything, that’s a fantasy.

        A “claim” which, ultimately depends on anti-semitism to give it validity and impetus, too.

      • Boris
        September 25, 2017, 3:18 pm

        Relax, poor Moser! Israel will survive without you.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 4:46 pm

        “Relax, poor Moser! Israel will survive without you.”

        So the Zionists have been lying to me (and everybody else) about how much they need the support of every Jew?

        And if Israel is so sanguine about surviving why are you here, running your mouth night and day?

        Oh, BTW, “Emetic”, since you are so ready to get along without, tell me, how many of the Jewish people can Israel get along without? Prefer a number, but a percentage will do

        But don’t worry, “Boris” the day is approaching when the largest number of Jews outside Israel will see the situation in it’s true aspect- Zionism works against our interests, and in the interests of anti-semitism.

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 6:16 pm

        “Sorry, Mu-Mu. Mondo does not let me expand on the anal theme.”

        You don’t need to. You are a premier ass already.

      • Talkback
        September 25, 2017, 7:20 pm

        Boris: “Name one nation whose claim to what is know today as Palestine is older than that of Jews.”

        The land was ruled by the Egyptian Empire. But I have to admit that the Egyptians are not imbeciles who still claim that it is theirs, because they ruled over it thousands of years ago.

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 8:57 am

        Contemporary Egyptians are not the same nation that lived in ancient Egypt.

        Next!

      • Antidote
        September 26, 2017, 10:14 am

        Boris, you really want me to name one nation whose claim to Palestine is older or better than that of the Jews? There are several, of coursebut , ok. What about the Canaanits?

        “There is no Israel without the conquest of Canaan and the expulsion or inferior status of Canaanites—then as now.” Edward Said .

        To return to your American analogy: the Puritans embarked on the very same path, also with the alleged blessing of God to violate their moral laws, also God given, including commandments against theft, murder, coveting neighbours’ possessions, wives etc, without any claim to being indigenous in any way. Worked just as well. Eventually, their descendants called themselves native Americans, and their country the best and greatest and most moral nation the world has ever seen.

      • oldgeezer
        September 26, 2017, 12:47 pm

        @Boris

        Just as todays Egyptians are not the same people as the ancient Egyptians todays Jewish people, particularly Ashkenazi, are not the same people as the ancient Israelites.

        Apparently the Lebanese do have strong ties to being descendants of the Canaanites. Their claim vastly predates any Jewish claim by thousands of years. Over 90% of their dna matches that of the Canaanites.

        http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/canaanite-bible-ancient-dna-lebanon-genetics-archaeology/

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 1:24 pm

        “There is no Israel without the conquest of Canaan and the expulsion or inferior status of Canaanites—then as now.” Edward Said .”

        Not to mention that we adopted and adapted a lot of the Canaanite religion in the process.

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 2:34 pm

        Jews rejected Canaanites’ religion and culture – golden calf, Moloch, human sacrifices, etc.

        There no Canaanites nation today. As there are no Philistines, Summers, Romans, Khazars, etc. These nations – i.e. their culture, customs, language have disappeared.

      • Talkback
        September 26, 2017, 6:10 pm

        Boris: “Contemporary Egyptians are not the same nation that lived in ancient Egypt.”

        ROFL. Please elaborate your nonsense.

      • ErsatzYisrael
        September 27, 2017, 5:38 pm

        Boorish said on September 26, 2017, at 8:57 am:

        Egyptians are not the same nation that lived in ancient Egypt.

        LMAO…er, yeah, and tEh joooooooooooooos were never a “nation” in the Westphalian sense and they never will be.

    • Misterioso
      September 25, 2017, 3:04 pm

      http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087/full
      Front. Genet., 21 June 2017 | https://doi.org/10.3389/fgene.2017.00087

      The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish
      Recent genetic samples from bones found in Palestine dating to the Epipaleolithic (20000-10500 BCE) showed remarkable resemblance to modern day Palestinians.

      EXCERPTS:
      “The non-Levantine origin of AJs [Ashkenazi Jews] is further supported by an ancient DNA analysis of six Natufians and a Levantine Neolithic (Lazaridis et al., 2016), some of the most likely Judaean progenitors (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2002; Frendo, 2004). In a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans.”

      “Overall, the combined results are in a strong agreement with the predictions of the Irano-Turko-Slavic hypothesis (Table 1) and rule out an ancient Levantine origin for AJs, which is predominant among modern-day Levantine populations (e.g., Bedouins and Palestinians). This is not surprising since Jews differed in cultural practices and norms (Sand, 2011) and tended to adopt local customs (Falk, 2006). Very little Palestinian Jewish culture survived outside of Palestine (Sand, 2009). For example, the folklore and folkways of the Jews in northern Europe is distinctly pre-Christian German (Patai, 1983) and Slavic in origin, which disappeared among the latter (Wexler, 1993, 2012).”

    • Talkback
      September 25, 2017, 10:31 pm

      Boris: “If you realize that it is the Jews who are indigenous to the Land of Israel, then the whole argument of this article falls on its face.”

      Sure. And if you “realize” that all Jews who live today are descendants of Jews who legally lived in Palestine in 1925 and therefore have at least matrilineal ancestors who were citizens of mandated Palestine you have to realize how stupid your realizations are.

  9. Ossinev
    September 25, 2017, 11:11 am

    @Emet
    “Jews are trying to survive in a tough neighborhood”. Really fighting back the tears on this one. Sounds like a Mafioso group having newly installed themselves in a neighbourhood , trying to earn a living from an honest days racketeering ( aka ethnic reconfiguration ) and whinging and whining about the native residents not liking and putting up a fight against what is a bunch of thieving , lying murderous criminals. Sob.

    • Emet
      September 25, 2017, 2:00 pm

      Ossinev, I am sure the Syrians, six years ago, would have believed every word of yours. Ask them today. Knowing how you work, in a few months the Syrian conflict will be forgotten and a big green check mark of approval will again be restored on the wonderful relationship between Sunni and Shiite. You will be telling us how Israel must “trust” the Arab and Muslim world.

      • Misterioso
        September 25, 2017, 3:09 pm

        Nonsense.
        Israel is belligerently, illegally and brutally occupying Palestinian and other Arab lands.
        Neither Palestinians nor other Arabs are occupying lands belonging to Israel.

      • Misterioso
        September 25, 2017, 3:53 pm

        Meanwhile:

        http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.813966

        “Israel Set to Advance Plans Next Week for Some 2,000 New Homes in West Bank Settlements”

        “Government postponed planning meeting two weeks ago at request of White House, to ensure it didn’t sabotage Trump-Abbas meeting in New York”
        Barak Ravid. Sep 24, 2017, Haaretz

  10. Misterioso
    September 25, 2017, 11:45 am

    Worth noting:

    Ahad Ha’am (nee, Asher Ginsberg) observed while in Palestine in 1891 (when Jews privately owned less than one per cent of the land), that “throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed.  Only sand dunes and stony mountains that are not fit to grow anything but fruit trees – and this only after hard labour and great expense of clearing and reclamation – only these are not cultivated.”  (Quoted by Rashid Khalidi, “Peasant Resistance to Zionism” in Blaming the Victims…” ed. by Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens, London & New York: Verso, 1988, p. 216)                                                                                                     

    The mistreatment of Palestinians by Jewish settlers caused Ha’am great distress. In 1891 he wrote: “They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, unscrupulously deprive them of their rights, insult them without cause, and even boast of such deeds; and none opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.”  (Ha’am, Ahad, by Am Sheideweg, Berlin 1923, vol.1, p.107; quoted by Hirst, The Gun and the Olive Branch, p. 24)                                        

    Ha’am concluded that this aggressive behaviour on the part of Jews stemmed from anger “…towards those who remind them that there is still another people in the land of Israel that have been living there and does not intend to leave.”  (Hans Kohn, Zionism Reconsidered, Michael Selzer, ed. London: 1970, p. 195; quoted by Nur Masalha, Expulsion of the Palestinians…, p. 7) 

    Theodor Herzl’s diaries not only confirm that his objective was the establishment of a “Jewish state” in Palestine, but that it would be an expansionist state.  In the year of his death he described its borders as being “…in the north the mountains facing Cappadocia [Turkey], in the south, the Suez Canal [Egypt] in the east, the Euphrates [Iraq].” (Theodor Herzl, The Complete Diaries, 11 p. 711)                                               

    In true nineteenth century colonialist fashion, Herzl contended that his “Jewish state” would protect Europe and its superior culture from the uncivilized East. “We should there [in Palestine] form a portion of the rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.”  (Theodor Herzl, Judenstaat (The Jewish State), 1896, p. 26)

    Even more revealing as to how Herzl intended to deal with Palestinians is the “Charter for Zionist Colonization of Palestine and Syria” which he drafted sometime between the summer of 1901 and early 1902. Much to his disappointment, however, he was denied the opportunity to present it to the Ottoman Sultanate.  Article Vl of the charter called for Istanbul to grant the Zionists, in the form of the Jewish-Ottoman Land Company (JOLC), “complete autonomy, guaranteed by the Ottoman Empire” while Article III gave them in effect, the right to deport the native population to other areas of the empire.  Article 111 “[pertained] to the Palestinian and other Arab owners and inhabitants of the three categories of land to be purchased/owned by the JOLC – the large and small private landholdings, the Sultan’s state domain, and the land for which there is no title.”     

    Israel Zangwill, the influential Anglo-Jewish essayist and Zionist first believed that the Palestinians would simply “fold their tents and slip away.”   It was Zangwill who first voiced the lie that Palestine was a “land without a people, waiting for a people without a land.”  (Zangwill, Israel, “The Return to Palestine”, New Liberal Review 11, Dec. 1901 p 627, quoted by David Hirst, p. 19) 

    In 1905, Zangwill contradicted himself during a talk in Manchester when he observed that Palestine was “already twice as thickly populated as the United States…. [W]e must be prepared to either drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population….” (Zangwill, Speeches, p. 210, quoted by Nur Masalah , Expulsion of the Palestinians…., 1992, p. 10)

    In the February 1919 issue of the League of Nations Journal, Zangwill proposed that the Palestinians “should be gradually transplanted” in Arab countries and at a public meeting in the same year he remarked that “many [Palestinians] are semi-nomad, they have given nothing to Palestine and are not entitled to the rules of democracy.” (Jewish Chronicle, Dec. 12 1919, quoted by Masalha, Expulsion…, p.14)

    In 1920, he proposed in The Voice of Jerusalem, that there should be an “‘Arab exodus’…based on ‘race redistribution’ or a ‘trek like that of the Boers from Cape Colony,’ which he advocated as ‘literally the only way out of the difficulty of creating a Jewish State in Palestine.'” He continued: “We cannot allow the Arabs to block so valuable a piece of historic reconstruction….To fold their tents and silently steal away is their proverbial habit: let them exemplify it now.” (Zangwill, The Voice of Jerusalem, p. 103, quoted by Masalha, EOTP pp. 13-14)                                                                                                                

    Other Zionist leaders saw the future Jewish state in Palestine not only free of Arabs, but the first step towards the creation of a much larger country. In 1918, Ben-Gurion described the future borders of the Jewish state as: “to the north, the Litani River; to the northeast, the Wadi’Owja, twenty miles south of Damascus; the southern border will be mobile and pushed into the Sinai at least up to Wadi al-`Arish; and to the east, the Syrian Desert, including the furthest edge of Transjordan.” (Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs, pp. 34-34; cited by Masalah, Expulsion…, p. 87)                                     

    In 1930 (when Jews privately owned only about four per cent of Palestine), Arthur Ruppin, a pivotal figure in political Zionism wrote that displacement of Arab farmers was inevitable because “land is the most necessary thing for our establishing roots in Palestine.  Since there are hardly any more arable unsettled lands in Palestine, we are bound in each case of the purchase of land and its settlement to remove the peasants who cultivated the land so far, both owners of the land and tenants.”  (Rashid Khalidi, in Blaming the Victims)                                                                                                                  
    In 1930, Britain’s Shaw Commission concluded: “The plain facts of the case are that there is no further land available which can be occupied by new immigrants without displacing the present population.” (Palestine Royal Commission Report, July 1937, Cmd. 5479, p. 176; cited by Alan George, JPS, #30, Winter, 1979, p. 91.) This situation caused the Shaw Commission to propose placing “limits on Zionist land purchases and on immigration to Palestine.” (Quigley, Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice, 1990, p. 19)                                                                                         
     
    The views of the Shaw Commission were echoed by John Chancellor, Britain’s high commissioner for Palestine. In a memorandum to Colonial Secretary Lord Passfield dated 17 January 1930, he called for a complete suspension of Jewish immigration and land purchase to protect Arab agriculture, pointing out that “all cultivable land was occupied; that no cultivable land now in possession of the indigenous population could be sold to Jews without creating a class of landless Arab cultivators.”     

    • Maghlawatan
      September 26, 2017, 3:33 am

      “We cannot allow the Arabs to block so valuable a piece of historic reconstruction….To fold their tents and silently steal away is their proverbial habit: let them exemplify it now”

      That is the core code of the Zionist model. They will go away .
      They will not.

      https://youtu.be/G7qEivYkgZM

  11. johneill
    September 25, 2017, 12:13 pm

    the argument that jews are a separate ethnicity was produced by the selfsame antisemitic europoean cultures hasbarists usually reference. they were (and are today) exactly as german as bratwurst, but nazis thought otherwise.

    • Boris
      September 25, 2017, 5:05 pm

      Interesting!

      So, somehow Nazis could figure out six million times who was a Jew in order to murder that person, but you claim that Jews are indistinguishable from the rest of population.

      Are you a moron?

      • Mooser
        September 25, 2017, 5:31 pm

        “So, somehow Nazis could figure out six million times who was a Jew in order to murder that person”

        That’s a good way of looking at it “Boris”! Any way of delineating Jews which is good enough for the Nazis is good enough for “Boris”.

        “Boris”, you go ahead and trust the Nazis to know who is a Jew and who is not. Maybe you are a moron. I’m not ready to take their word for it.

      • Talkback
        September 25, 2017, 10:05 pm

        According to Boris’ personal logic the Nazis could have only used DNA tests to distinguish Jews from Nonjews. And we all know that Boris is not a moron.

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 9:23 am

        Well, little moserchik, like it or not, that’s the way things are.

        And rest assured, sooner or later your “friends” will remind you and your fellow self-loving Jews of who you are despite all of your antisemitic efforts.

      • gamal
        September 26, 2017, 11:00 am

        “sooner or later your “friends” will remind you and your fellow self-loving Jews of who you are despite all of your antisemitic efforts”

        ah yes the Munchausen syndrome by proxy Anti-semiticism, they don’t understand the damage they cause.

        well honestly Boris after you’re Egyptians are not Egyptian crack I am not disposed to help you out, really alarming Jews and then blaming Goys, it so unfair.

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 1:14 pm

        “And rest assured, sooner or later your “friends” will remind you and your fellow self-loving Jews of who you are despite all of your antisemitic efforts.”

        It’s a hell of a life for a poor Jew. Either the anti-semites boss me around, maybe kill me, or I can turn myself over to the Zionists, and get bossed by them.

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 2:26 pm

        Yes, loser, it sucks to be you.

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 3:13 pm

        “Yes, loser, it sucks to be you.”

        There you go “Boris”. Nobody is “censoring” you.
        You just forget to push “Post Comment” once or twice.

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 4:08 pm

        Anal-ytically speaking, I am pushing deeper and deeper and I hope you don’t enjoy it.

      • Mooser
        September 27, 2017, 6:15 pm

        See what happens, “Boris”?
        After a while, the Moderators won’t do you any favors.

  12. Maghlawatan
    September 26, 2017, 3:26 am

    On yom kippur if you want to atone for your sins you must face the other person. You cannot wheel out a sociopath such as Netanyahu to explain it was not your fault .
    Judaism evolved over millennia. It is a balanced system. Zionism has never been at equilibrium. It is fed by hatred. It cannot survive.

  13. Boris
    September 26, 2017, 9:27 am

    I am not going to post here any more as my comments are being filtered out.

    • Antidote
      September 26, 2017, 11:00 am

      And you are the only one whose comments are filtered out, of course. Never happens to anyone else here. Not.

    • Keith
      September 26, 2017, 11:23 am

      BORIS- “I am not going to post here any more as my comments are being filtered out.”

      Based upon your comments which pass moderation, I would say that not enough of your comments are being “filtered out.” Worse, to maintain a certain balance in rejections, perfectly good anti-Zionist comments are being trashed, like a recent response I made to you, for example. Now that is not fair!

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 11:57 am

        @Keith

        What do you mean “maintain balance”?

        Why do they need to do it? So that they appear as “balanced”???

        I am totally against it. And I would love for everyone to see your dribble as it it invariably illogical and ill-informed.

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 3:36 pm

        ” And I would love for everyone to see your dribble as it it invariably illogical and ill-informed.” “Boris”

        Oy Gevalt I hope the Evil Eye was deaf when you said that! Like “illogical and ill-formed dribble” has never hurt the Jews?

      • Keith
        September 26, 2017, 6:53 pm

        BORIS- “And I would love for everyone to see your dribble….”

        Me too! Fond of basketball, are you?

        BORIS- “… as it it invariably illogical and ill-informed.”

        It it is? Oh darn, and I try so hard! Thanks for the feedback.

      • Boris
        September 27, 2017, 8:22 am

        Android auto correct.

        Drivel.

        But you got my drift.

    • amigo
      September 26, 2017, 12:52 pm

      ” am not going to post here any more as my comments are being filtered out.” Boris

      You waited less than 2 hours to break your promise.How very zionist of you.

      • Mooser
        September 26, 2017, 1:18 pm

        “You waited less than 2 hours to break your promise”

        “Boris” has nowhere else to go. “amigo”, if you had an English-language site which was concerned about presenting Zionism in a decent light, would you tolerate “Boris” for long? Or Mr. Lorem Ipsum himself “Jeff b”?

      • Boris
        September 26, 2017, 2:38 pm

        Amigo, did not your mother tell you not to trust a Zionist?

      • amigo
        September 26, 2017, 4:42 pm

        “Amigo, did not your mother tell you not to trust a Zionist?” Boris.

        Indeed she did and allow me to thank you for proving Mother knows best.

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