Rightwing campaign against Jewish exec who called for exposing Nakba seems likely to fail

US Politics
on 146 Comments

A rightwing campaign has begun against a prestigious Jewish organization, the Center for Jewish History, to fire a new executive who has called for discussions of the Nakba and against demonizing the BDS campaign (boycott, divestment and sanctions). And happily, it appears that this campaign will fail.

David N. Myers is a former professor of Jewish history at UCLA who was named last June to head the Center on 16th Street in New York (which houses five scholarly and archival Jewish entities, including Yivo). Myers appears to be a cultural Zionist or non-Zionist. He believes that Israel should become a democratic society, he is on the board of the New Israel Fund, and he once issued a moving fundraising appeal on behalf of his daughters for the non-Zionist group IfNotNow.

David N. Myers, with one of his daughters, in an appeal for IfNotNow

The campaign against Myers is being waged by very non-scholarly rightwing activists, notably Ronn Torossian, who are appealing to major donors to the Center. Torossian launched the effort just three days ago in several rightwing Jewish publications. “New CEO of Center for Jewish History Holds Radical Viewpoints,” he, Hank Sheinkopf, and George Birnbaum wrote at Algemeiner. 

Their account highlights “radical” positions that Myers should be very proud of:

The new CEO of the Center for Jewish History (CJH), David N. Myers, is a leader of the New Israel Fund, and holds leadership positions at IfNotNow and J Street. Myers also has extreme viewpoints — including supporting “some forms” of boycotts against Israel.

Myers’ writings (which are available for perusal at Nakbaeducation.com) include claiming “that the deep wound of the Nakba must finally be exposed to the light of day.”[in a review of the landmark Israeli Nakba novel Khirbet Khizeh]

He has also written of “…the essential step of acknowledging Israel’s role in the dispossession of Palestinian Arabs,” and quotes Uri Avinery’s wartime memoir, which alleges “cruelty, indifference and violence by Israeli soldiers towards Palestinian Arabs.”

IfNotNow — a group that Myers made an impassioned December 2016 fundraising appeal for — is an organization dedicated to “stopping the occupation,” and “wants mainstream American Jewish organizations to publicly oppose Israel’s occupation of the West Bank.” According to Haaretz, the organization holds “…sit-ins in the lobbies of buildings housing Jewish groups” to protest them for not condemning Israel’s West Bank “occupation.” The group’s members have been arrested while holding sit-ins at the Anti-Defamation League, Hillel International, AIPAC and the Jewish Federation — and they refuse to meet with the leaders of these organizations.

Myers — who was honored by Peace Now in 2014 — has regularly cowritten op-eds with the head of the New Israel Fund, where he calls for Arabs in the settlements to be made Israeli citizens (which would end the Jewish character of Israel). And while Myers writes of mostly opposing the “boycott of Israel,” he also says that the BDS movement should not be “demonized.”

In a May 2016 op-ed in The Forward, Myers observed that “…Israeli democracy is under threat. Incitement against human rights organizations proceeds with little trace of official censure; cabinet ministers aim to impose new ideological litmus tests in the realm of education and culture; government-sponsored bills place Jews on a higher plane than other citizens, and the State’s Ashkenazi chief rabbi declares that ‘Israel is first and foremost Jewish, and only then democratic.’”

Myers also recently described himself as a “fierce critic of Netanyahu and the immoral and destructive policies of his government.”…

According to Campus Watch, Myers “employed all the usual clichés — ‘cycle of violence,” ‘disproportionately harsh’ — to single Israel out as ‘the most responsible party’ for the ‘escalating violence’ in a July 2006 Los Angeles Times op-ed. In a piece titled ‘Rethinking the Jewish Nation,‘ which was published in the Winter 2011 edition of the Havruta Journal, Myers argued that ‘Statist Zionism’ should give way to a ‘global Jewish collective.’”

Torossian has been calling donors to try to cut the Center for Jewish History off at its knees. Reports the LA Times:

“We are absolutely persuading donors, speaking actively to donors, and if this man remains there, I am confident they will see a rapid decline in donations,” Torossian said.

The amazing thing is that once again such a disgraceful attack is getting traction. Because calling for democracy in Israel really is “radical.” That’s the way the Jewish community works: the most rightwing supporters of Israel are granted authority, because Jewish lives are at risk over there. And leftwingers and peaceniks are shown the door (witness Breira 31 years ago, brought down by the establishment offices of Wolf Blitzer et al).

The good news is that Myers’s supporters have pushed back hard. A petition was circulated saying he’s not radical or anti-Israel, and it immediately drew nearly 500 signatures from academics, many of them leading scholars in Jewish Studies (notables include Dov Waxman, Steven Zipperstein, Michael Walzer, Sara Yael Hirschhorn, Stephen Cohen, Aaron Hahn Tapper, Todd Gitlin, Liora Halperin, Shaul Magid, Annette Reed, Derek Penslar). Excerpt:

A small group of self-appointed vigilantes has mounted a scurrilous campaign demanding Myers’ ouster, claiming without any basis, that he holds anti-Israel views. These detractors are engaging in the worst kind of McCarthyism…

With a proven track record of dynamic leadership, institution building, and community outreach, he is the ideal person to direct the Center for Jewish History. Calls for his ouster based on ad hominem charges on purely political grounds must be rejected.

One helpful thing about this discussion is the word radical. That definition is obviously in play, in the 50th year of the permanent Israeli occupation. Mark Oppenheimer has an excellent piece on the battle up at the Los Angeles Times, in which he says, If Myers is an anti-Zionist, well that’s OK. If he thinks founding Israel was a mistake, no problem!

In the divided world of Israel politics, many on the right see even center-left groups such as J Street as hostile to the Jewish state. They see Myers’ vague openness to a possible “partial boycott” of Israel — one that targets companies that make arms used in the occupation of the West Bank — as equivalent to wishing for Israel’s demise. They see the use of the Arab word “nakba” as a provocation. In this reading, a liberal scholar like Myers becomes an enemy of his people.

To defend Myers against charges of anti-Zionism misses the point. What if Myers were an anti-Zionist — somebody who, while loving Jews and Judaism and Jewish history, thought that Israel’s founding was a mistake, or thought that its privileging of Jews in law and immigration policy was wrong? To be clear, there is no evidence that he holds those views. (Reached by email Thursday, Myers declined to comment.) But if he did, would that disqualify him from running a scholarly center?

Not, I should think, if his scholarship were sound, and his management competent.

My impression is that Myers is a non-Zionist. He says Israel should have become a democracy with equal rights for everyone. Or take a look at that fundraising appeal for IfNotNow, “For my daughters, IfNotNow is a place to build community and resistance.”

Some claim that this cohort of young Jews has been lost. But nothing could be further from the truth.

Members of IfNotNow have a deep sense of commitment and ethical clarity. They understand that the Jewish community has hesitated for too long in calling out the moral and political disaster that is the occupation. Like the sage Hillel, they ask: “If not now, when?” They seek not to bring shame for shame’s sake, but rather to answer Hillel’s question by answering: “Now!”

The Forward has published a defense of Myers by two scholars of Jewish history, David Ellenson and Jonathan Sarna: “David Myers is Not a Radical.”  They are obviously afraid of the “enemy of the people” charge and seek to de-anathematize his views.

It is also simply not true that Myers believes that “Israel should no longer exist as a Jewish state.” There is no such reference in the article his critics cite to support this claim. On the contrary, Myers goes out of his way in the piece referenced by them to make clear his vigorous support for the existence of the State of Israel. Rather, his article simply echoes such well-known Zionists as Mordecai Kaplan and Simon Rawidowicz in insisting that the diaspora likewise play an important role in Jewish nationhood. This is not a controversial position for an American Jew (indeed, many Israelis agree), and it is disgraceful that the writers of these critiques of Myers distort what he wrote, no doubt hoping that readers will not bother to check the original. Myers is also on record as opposing BDS, contrary to what his critics conclude….

They do say:

it is unthinkable that the Center’s president should be obligated to espouse a particular partisan view on Israel and Zionism.

So some day there will be a conference on the Nakba at the Center for Jewish History. About time!

P.S. A lot of my efforts on this site are devoted to Liberal Zionists in Exodus, and I see Myers as such a figure. These are not Power liberal Zionists, who spend all day fighting Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israel out of fear that BDS will undermine Israel as a “Jewish state,” tear apart the Democratic Party, and hurt the permanent Hillary Clinton campaign (Think J Street, Josh Marshall, Randi Weingarten). Liberal Zionists in Exodus are thoughtful people who once believed in the Zionist dream or something like it but cannot deny what Israel has become after 50 years of occupation. They are just not sure what to do about it. There are thousands of them out there: people who feel that this website or Jewish Voice for Peace are too radical for them, but something awful is happening in Israel, and they must not be in the position of covering it up or lying about it, because they know that history is not kind to those who see apartheid and fail to witness to it (the J Street position). The main watering holes for Liberal Zionists in Exodus are The New Israel Fund and IfNotNow, both of which avoid the word Zionism. They know it’s become a dirty word for young Jews.

Thanks to Annie Robbins.

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146 Responses

  1. Annie Robbins
    September 8, 2017, 2:23 pm

    i wonder if it occurs to anyone (besides myself) that this sort of compulsive vindictive behavior, which seems to be kind of a penchant for radical right wing jews, could lead to an increase in anti semitism?

    i am stunned by, not just how spiteful this kind of smear activity is, but that “several rightwing Jewish publications” are even willing to publish it. it’s not just this campaign against myers either, it seems to be a pattern. one easily documented.

    maybe it is not uncommon for other groups to actively lobby for people to be fired (over non violent perceived political/ideological differences) and i just don’t hear about it very much or it’s done behind closed doors.

    also, since the authors of the hit piece are professional pr guys*. do you think they are getting paid for writing this? are they working for clients/higher ups who do not want their names associated with this smear campaign against myers?

    *or “pr” by other names such as ‘political consultant’, ie birnbaurm’s wiki page says “His work includes polling, strategy, paid media“. this is a glamorized name for a pr guy.

    • Mooser
      September 8, 2017, 3:53 pm

      “compulsive vindictive behavior, which seems to be kind of a penchant for radical right wing jews, could lead to an increase in anti semitism?”

      Or, more likely, an increase in auto-anti-semitism.

      (Now that Naftali Bennet has identified this debilitating condition, it behooves us to look for anything which might contribute to it.)

      • Annie Robbins
        September 9, 2017, 3:16 am

        (Now that Naftali Bennet has identified this debilitating condition, it behooves us to look for anything which might contribute to it.)

        mooser, i am shocked you don’t read all my comments, i thought you never slept! as i
        explained here: http://mondoweiss.net/2017/09/auto-semite-simple/#comment-890126

        it was jeffrey goldberg who first identified this debilitating condition!

        oh no… i hte to break it to you guys but jeffrey goldberg published it first, referencing glenn greenwald in 2012. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/01/more-on-glenn-greenwald-israel-firsters-and-idiot-editors-updated/251852/

        Self-hatred is a deeply-inexact description of the people this reader is trying to describe. In my experience, those Jews who consciously set themselves apart from the Jewish majority in the disgust they display for Israel, or for the principles of their faith, are often narcissists, and therefore seem to suffer from an excess of self-regard, rather than self-loathing. “Self-hater” is a euphemism, then, for “auto-anti-Semite,” or some other such locution.

        h/t yakov hirsh https://twitter.com/YakovHirsch/status/902061186690072578

      • Philip Weiss
        September 9, 2017, 9:34 am

        Yes, thanks Annie and Yakov for that

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 11:43 am

        “it was jeffrey goldberg who first identified this debilitating condition!”

        Of course, that’s right. But let’s not forget “Hophmi’s” masterful explication:

        “Self-hatred is a disease. It is a sad disease borne of many generations of persecution, but it is a disease. And ……. (insert any name here) is afflicted with it, as many Jews have been in the past. And it is usually the self-haters who cause the worst damage to the Jewish community, precisely because of how small it is.”

        ttp://mondoweiss.net/profile/hophmi/?keyword=fall+away

      • maddave
        September 9, 2017, 3:38 pm

        Ah so, Mooser. I beg to disagree. Not so much with your comment but, rather, with your choice of verb tenses: You say: “. . . compulsive vindictive (by) . . . radical right wing Jews, COULD LEAD to an increase in anti Semitism?”
        “You’ve got it wrong, my friend. The anti-Semitism pendulum IS in motion and has-been accelerating for decades. And not just in the Middle East! The obscene plight of the Palestinians far exceeds anything written in Jimmy Carter’s book, “Peace Not Apartheid”– with no relief in sight and none anticipated under Netanyahu & Likud.

        That which the world sees today is Israel’s intransigence regarding good-faith peace negotiations and their insistence upon ethnic cleansing of all of what used to be the (de facto) State of Palestine . . . And frankly, whether Jewish, Christian or Muslim, the world grows weary of this continuing physical, economic, and social abuse of Arabs by Israeli military, police and armed civilians, none of whom are ever held accountable. for any of their wanton actions. (Eg., USS Liberty)

        Agreed, the world’s Jews — like the Kurds — need “a safe place” to live, but the Palestinians ALSO need a safe place to live. The Arabs had had a relatively safe and peaceful homeland for two mil1lennia… until the militant Zionists, Hitler and the Partition of Palestine came along.

        So get over it! At some point, Israel MUST back down and negotiate.
        That time is NOW!!!

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 6:53 pm

        “You say: “. . . compulsive vindictive (by) . . . radical right wing Jews, COULD LEAD to an increase in anti Semitism?”

        That was “Annie” (2:23), above, and I was quoting her. I read every one of her comments.

      • catalan
        September 10, 2017, 9:54 pm

        “Why does M J Rosenberg see Mondoweiss seething with anti-Semites? ” Keith
        Perhaps because Annie (who works for the site) and regular commenters such as yourself and Mooser frequently heap praise on Yoni Falic of the Turkish Slavic school. The same individual recently stated on his twitter feed that: “I don’t understand why anyone with IQ > 50 clings to Judaism or to Jewish identity. ” He has also called for the death of said MJ Rosenberg with this tweet:”It is important to understand that Zios are outlaws under international anti-genocide law and may be killed at any time and in any place” Note that Yoni’s definition of Zios would include the whole spectrum of Zionism.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 10, 2017, 10:48 pm

        catalan, stop lying about me

      • gamal
        September 10, 2017, 11:40 pm

        “Perhaps because Annie (who works for the site) and regular commenters such as yourself and Mooser frequently heap praise on Yoni Falic”

        these kind of weak guilt by association gambits are becoming the norm and the Zionists are managing to tar organised Jewry in the west with the lowest and most dishonest of political gambits, smearing and defaming, anything but a discussion of the substance of the issue.

        “Labour Blairites are planning to cull Corbyn supporters with a surprise witch hunt at party conference”

        “The Labour right is planning a cull of Corbyn supporters through a vote at the party’s conference in Brighton later this month. The amendment could introduce ‘life bans’ for those, like Corbyn, who criticise the state of Israel.

        The witch hunt

        A motion has been put forward by the pro-Israel Jewish Labour Movement (JLM), supported by several Constituency Labour Parties (CLPs). It calls for the ‘life ban’ of any party member deemed to have engaged in antisemitic language or behaviour. On the surface of it, a positive move to tackle bigotry.

        But the Labour right’s new definition of antisemitism expands to include any and all criticism of the state of Israel. This is unhealthy, and dangerous. JLM National Secretary and Labour councillor Peter Mason explained the move in a column for the LabourList website. Originally entitled “Let’s introduce life bans for the minority of bigots who shame the Labour party”, it was later amended to something more subtle. In the piece, Mason argues:

        At conference an amendment to the rules, proposed by the Jewish Labour Movement and by CLPs across the country, as well as proposals from the NEC, will seek to resolve this once and for all.
        Despite several high-profile suspensions, the mass expulsion of party members, and two high-profile inquiries – the witch hunt persists.

        The ‘life ban’ plans come amid the latest smear campaign against a prominent left-wing Labour MP, Chris Williamson. Campaign group Labour Against Antisemitism accused the Derby MP of antisemitism for referring to Israel as an “apartheid” country.”

        https://www.thecanary.co/2017/09/07/labour-blairites-planning-cull-corbyn-supporters-surprise-witch-hunt-party-conference-editorial/

      • Annie Robbins
        September 10, 2017, 11:48 pm

        omg gamal. nothing like wanting to hold the balls of labour party in a vice grip. wtf! frankly, i don’t think they can pull it off.

      • echinococcus
        September 11, 2017, 1:15 am

        Catalan,

        “I don’t understand why anyone with IQ > 50 clings to Judaism or to Jewish identity. ”

        Just repeating perfectly legitimate questions with a scandalized air does not solve them. Take the one above: no one has offered a cogent explanation for normally and supranormally intelligent, otherwise logical people, clinging to either a religion or to a “Jewish” identity. The cause must of course be sought totally outside the realm of facts and logic but still, we haven’t heard a satisfactory explanation. If you have one, please provide it.

      • RoHa
        September 11, 2017, 7:49 am

        Annie, the Labour Party lost them years ago.

      • catalan
        September 11, 2017, 8:52 am

        “Just repeating perfectly legitimate questions with a scandalized air does not solve them. ” echi
        It was just an opinion as to why the site may be construed as antisemitic. I am not at all scandalized – I think sites such as this play a vital role in exhibiting the full range of views out there. Unlike others, I don’t think that not hearing or seeing something makes it to cease to exist.

      • echinococcus
        September 11, 2017, 10:37 am

        “Catalan”

        So, genius, instead of totally irrelevant nonsense give us a clear answer. Do you know why anyone with average or better intelligence clings to Judaism or to Jewish identity despite all facts and logic? If you don’t, why did you start the ruckus?

      • MHughes976
        September 11, 2017, 11:34 am

        If someone asked me during boisterous conversation why anyone with an IQ over 50 is an Anglican I would not be too offended, indeed would try to think of a reason, but we are not supposed on Mondoweiss to make remarks that amount to ‘bashing’ any particular religion and I think we should stick to that. Religious polemics are a dodgy genre.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 1:47 pm

        “Mooser frequently heap praise on Yoni Falic”

        “catalan” does it bother you that I have some respect for the experience of an IDF veteran?

      • Keith
        September 11, 2017, 4:50 pm

        CATALAN- “Perhaps because Annie (who works for the site) and regular commenters such as yourself and Mooser frequently heap praise on Yoni Falic of the Turkish Slavic school.”

        This is a surprisingly dishonest comment and I am dissappointed in you. Perhaps that is why you placed this comment far away from my comment which you are supposedly responding to. I don’t follow Twitter nor any social media at all. Since we are talking about Mondoweiss, what some commenters may post on Twitter is more or less irrelevant. Curious that you didn’t quote a relevant comment from Mondoweiss. Are you suggesting that M J Rosenberg follows Yoni Falic on Twitter? And what does that have to do with Mondoweiss in any event? And why do you Zionists seem to spend so much time following websites/Twitter feeds which you consider anti-Semitic? To convince yourselves that the Goyim are ready to pounce?

        As for my “heaping praise” on Yoni, I have commented favorably on some of his historical references which were consistent with my understanding of historical reality, and which were at odds with Jewish Zionist myth-history concerning Jewish helplessness and Gentile malevolence. Curious, you never joined in those discussions, preferring instead to rely on personal attacks on Yoni. You seem to forget that Yoni has experienced some very unpleasant things in Israel which influence his choice of words. Yet, if we allow for his personal anger, I find his historical references compelling. If you disagree with what he says why not simply respond to his comment rather than taking a back-handed swipe at him in a comment to me? As for your reference to the “Turkish Slavic school,” I think it is fairly well established that Ashkenazi Jews are Eastern European converts to Judaism. You disagree? In any event, you seem to attack Yoni in comments to other commenters rather than responding to him directly, even going so far as to conflate him with “Adolph” in a comment to Amigo. You need to straighten up and fly right, partner.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 12, 2017, 10:53 am

        This is a surprisingly dishonest comment and I am dissappointed in you. Perhaps that is why you placed this comment far away from my comment which you are supposedly responding to.

        keith, it is strategically placed to break up the flow of conversation and insert inflammatory caustic accusatory off topic discourse at the top of the thread for the purpose of diverting/ending the conversation (previously taking place)in the subthread. it’s intended to attract responses thereby providing extractions to further divert (note nathan picking up a segment of your response to extend/divide the subthread hence breaking up the conversation even further)
        — it simply would not have had the same impact lower in the thread.

        catalan is a disruptive attention grabbing junkie, typical troll behavior, best ignored.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 6:35 pm

        ” why anyone with an IQ over 50 is an Anglican .”

        Great hymns and liturgical music.

      • Nathan
        September 11, 2017, 10:27 pm

        Keith – You claim that “it is fairly well established that Ashkenazi Jews are Eastern European converts to Judaism”. The ongoing “theory” is that the Ashkenazi Jews are from the Khazarian kingdom. Arthur Koestler made this “theory” quite popular with his book “The Thirteenth Tribe”. The message of his book was actually to mock the Nazi racial policy (antisemitism) by “proving” that the Jews are not Semites at all. (Actually, there are only Semitic languages, but no Semitic people). Recently, Shlomo Sand wrote a book (“Who Invented the Jewish People”) in which he repeated the Khazarian origin story, but then he added that all the Jews of the world are descended from converts (the Sefardim are actually converted Berbers, and the Yemenites are converts from the time of Dhu Nuwas) – so that no one can claim that he’s a Jew exiled from ancient Judea (thus, God forbid, justifying his return to the homeland). Everyone seems to have an ax to grind: Koestler was busy with the Germans, and Sand is busy with “disproving” the narrative of an exiled people. I would imagine that you, too, believe that “it is fairly well established that Ashkenazi Jews are Eastern European converts to Judaism”, because it seems to pull out the rug from under the feet of Zionism (and not because it’s so well established).

      • Talkback
        September 12, 2017, 11:07 am

        Nathan: “Sand is busy with “disproving” the narrative of an exiled people.”

        ROFL. There’s nothing to disprove, because there’s not a single historian who can prove “the narrative on an exiled people”.

    • Brewer
      September 8, 2017, 5:44 pm

      In my view, it depends on how you view the concept of “anti-Semitism”.
      As you will be aware, I believe that the term, as it is exploited, is logically problematic in that it contains within it a form of racism.

      All acts termed “anti-Semitic” are, by definition, racist acts yet racist acts cannot be defined by the identity of the victim. The Rule of Law insists otherwise. What is an offense to one must also be an offense against all.

      Put it this way. If it is not a racist offense to pass comment on the activities of a group such as BLM, Council of Conservative Citizens or American Renaissance, how can it be a racist offense to criticize Zionist groups? The only way, in my view, is to attach a special significance to them because of their identity – which is Jewish.
      Making such a distinction is in itself an expression of racism.

      Quite frankly, I believe the term is deliberately misused to support Zionism which is a racist ideology, no matter how cleverly it is packaged and sold.

      So no, I do not think ” this sort of compulsive vindictive behavior…….could lead to an increase in anti semitism”.
      An increase in legitimate criticism that will be portrayed as “anti-Semitism” is a foregone conclusion however.
      The huge effort to identify criticism of the Jewish State with “anti-Semitism” is fraudulent because “State” and “race” are not synonymous.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 8, 2017, 10:35 pm

        If it is not a racist offense to pass comment on the activities of a group such as BLM, Council of Conservative Citizens or American Renaissance, how can it be a racist offense to criticize Zionist groups?

        but i wasn’t really talking about ‘passing comment’. if i don’t like some tactic or policy of BLM or Conservative Citizens or American Renaissance and i say something about that it could start a public debate or someone to make some rude retort or an argument could ensue or whatever. that’s different than having the power to take away my job, like in the recent instance of Carlos Ramirez-Rosa having been immediately kicked off the ticket, or loud public and published slanderous accusations against keith ellison along w/ millionaires threatening to walk from the dem party if he became chairman, and the list goes on and on.

        it might not be a racist offense to criticize Zionist groups, but what if one becomes literally afraid of crossing them and fears for their livelihood and ones families livelihood not to agree with them? might this not lead to an irrational fear of jews? for some people anyway? this is what i mean. because irrational fears can turn into irrational hatred.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 8, 2017, 10:48 pm

        and just to add to this hysteria, this anti bds legislation sweeping the country which directly targets people’s livelihood, in california for instance, this is not sponsored by the California Legislative Zionist Caucus, it is sponsored by the California Legislative Jewish Caucus. organized jewry is constantly pretending to speak for the jewish community even tho they don’t. other groups don’t have the same kind of power to pull this kind of crap all the time nor the media/finance behind them to place full page ads in papers and hire fancy pr guys or lobbiests to get their opinions plastered all over the msm at the drop of a hat. it’s not the same. if we had enslaved jews for hundreds of years you better believe we’d be paying reparations till the cows come home. you better believe there would not be monuments to their slave masters all over the country but instead big fancy museums dedicated to shaming those slave masters — in every state! african americas? hell no.

      • echinococcus
        September 8, 2017, 11:16 pm

        Annie,

        Exactly!

        But then,

        organized jewry is constantly pretending to speak for the jewish community even tho they don’t

        That’s something you could only prove with ironclad data. Personally my sense of whatever you call “community” is that it is behind Zionists and other organized fake-nationalist crazies –by a solid percentage. Repeating: the general-population ratio of support and indifference to Zionism is already hair-rising, and people who knowingly identify themselves with the tribe are way worse.

        if we had enslaved jews for hundreds of years you better believe we’d be paying reparations till the cows come home

        “We” haven’t enslaved any Jews, “we” have, to the contrary, helped them more than any country, ever, and yet we are being made to pay through the nose and the ears –we are the ones enslaved. No if.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 8, 2017, 11:55 pm

        “we” have, to the contrary, helped them more than any country..No if.

        oh wow, more pearls of wisdom. i simply had no idea. snark/ anyway, my analogy was to african americans who had been enslaved.

        That’s something you could only prove with ironclad data.

        no it’s not. it’s common sense. organized jewry that is constantly pretending to speak for the jewish community generally speaks in one voice and they chastize members of their own community who don’t tow the line. and the belief that all jews think alike is a myth they want outsiders to believe (to give themselves more power) and it’s not true. jews are all over the map. if organized jewry represented the vast majority of jews they would proudly publish their membership lists — and they don’t. especially in places like the SF bay area. sure there are pockets around the county where the jewish community may be of the same mind but all one has to do is step onto any college campus to find out jewish opinion is not in lockstep.

      • echinococcus
        September 9, 2017, 12:56 am

        Annie,

        1. Once again, you don’t have the exclusive, private property of all permissible takes on discussing what you have written, no matter what you exactly intended at the start (and yes, we all get what you intended, thank you.) Others can pull the discussion to what they consider more interesting instead if they want to, and you don’t have to make a federal case out of it.

        2. As to your attempt to absolve the “Jewish communities” from mostly supporting their organized representatives, as I already said you still need ironclad data no matter how many words you can put together. Meaning you still need credible, well-grounded studies with polls, etc.
        A bit surprising to see you so lightly dismiss any call for proof.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 9, 2017, 2:09 am

        i don’t have to prove to you or anyone else jewish mouthpieces who continually try to speak for some jewish group-think represent the jewish community nor do i need “ironclad data”, because i know many jewish people who are in jewish community who they don’t represent. there’s some hint of what i mean in cecilie surasky’s article. http://mondoweiss.net/2013/05/francisco-apartheid-backlash/

        Once again, i don’t profess to have exclusive, private property of all permissible takes on discussing what i have written. no matter what you exactly intended at the start (and yes, we all get what you intended, thank you.) Others can pull the discussion to what they consider more interesting instead if they want to, and you don’t have to make a federal case out of it.

        that said, if you want to debate this topic, it won’t be me discussing it with you. you don’t have exclusive, private property of all permissible takes on discussing what you have written. and i can disagree with it as much as i want or blow off your little diversionary lectures about being enslaved or anything else i care to ignore. later!

      • Danaa
        September 9, 2017, 2:05 am

        Annie, I am afraid you are right about “organized Jewry” being essentially captive to israel, no matter what the latter does. When israel is proven to be an apartheid state, they are behind it; if Israel openly starts to practice ethnic cleansing (as opposed to the kind they are doing now – creepily), they would be behind that too; and if Israel were to bomb every structure to smitherins in Gaza, killing 100’s of 1000’s “organized Jewry” would find reasons to “justify” that, if not cheer them outright (insert sad face here). And when israel goes all theocratic outlawing the Americans’ reform and conservative congregations altogether, “organized Jewery” would turn the other cheek. So all this we already know. The only question remaining is – If there is an all out campaign to outlaw BDS and perhaps even jail those who dare as much as utter the words, where would “organized jewry” stand? well, I say that, about half of “the organized ones” would be silent as lambs while a third would be busy finding constitutional justifications for just such a course of action. Never mind the remaining 20% – may be they’ll stop being so organized? greater miracles have happened…..

        What is the matter with “organized Jewery” is the question that people should be asking, just as someone once asked “what’s the matter with Kansas?”.

        Because if they don’t, the next question will be “what’s the matter with Judaism that it beget such organizations”?

        As for speaking for most Jewish Americans, of course they don’t. Unfortunately, they do hold sway over many of the largest donors to political and academic causes. And therein lies the problem. You can’t fire these organizations, even if they don’t speak for you. Not if livelihoods and careers depend on the largess of donors.

        And though I am glad the organized ones – through their selected frontmen/women – were not able [yet] to drop Myers to his knees, they still win more than they lose. Especially in a country where private donations grease just about every wheel.

        So, keep worrying.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 9, 2017, 2:28 am

        As for speaking for most Jewish Americans, of course they don’t. Unfortunately, they do hold sway over many of the largest donors to political and academic causes. And therein lies the problem. You can’t fire these organizations, even if they don’t speak for you. Not if livelihoods and careers depend on the largess of donors.

        absolutely danaa, and when they act in these vindictive ways or support others who do while professing to speak for the jewish community it can cause the effect of silencing others, obviously including people outside the jewish community who i would assume think this sort of activity is twisted/bizarre/grotesque. and it’s in that silence resentment builds. plus, we have very vocal people (one right here on this thread) insisting these mouthpieces and organizations do represent (and resemble) “jews”. it’s so blatantly gross.

        and if Israel were to bomb every structure to smitherins in Gaza, killing 100’s of 1000’s “organized Jewry” would find reasons to “justify” that, if not cheer them outright

        a tad OT but this reminds me of this gruesome article i just read. about israel’s next war on lebanon Maj. Gen. Amir Eshel “Israeli commanders reveal plans for mass evacuation of Lebanese civilians in next war”
        https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2017/06/21/israeli-commanders-reveal-plans-for-mass-evacuation-of-lebanese-civilians-in-next-war/#.WZWLyTsBqmo.facebook

        just a horrid article describing all their airpower. and of course, no mention of where they plan on evacuating civilians. and maybe they don’t know everyone in the south is hezbollah. it’s a people’s party.

        here’s Eshel saying the same thing in may 2014, bragging on firepower re lebanon in the next war

        https://www.timesofisrael.com/air-force-chief-lauds-400-firepower-increase-in-2-years/

        and the 1st link says  

        He noted, presumably in reference to Israel’s war in Gaza during the summer of 2014, that the Israeli Air Force “has had [the] opportunity to test ourselves, so what I’m saying is not just a theory.

        iow, gaza was their guinea pig. their provable slaughterhouse. the stuff he was saying in may 2014, now he’s proved they can demolish and kill faster! 400% more effectively!

        is this sick or what?

      • echinococcus
        September 9, 2017, 9:43 am

        Annie,

        No doubt you know a lot of people and your subjective evaluation of the tribals’ stand was heard and understood the first time around.
        That is woefully inadequate to estimate the support to Zionism among the people who describe themselves as “Jewish”, whatever that is supposed to mean.

        What there is in the way of existing, inadequate polls, numbers of “real communities” (ie known congregations, prayolas, clubs, etc.) and the (almost?) absence of any anti-Zionist units of that sort does not seem to confirm your personal guess.

        In fact, outside Neturei Karta and what with the dying off of the Bundists, there isn’t much around. There are a number of people agitating in schools, etc., and even then one hears a lot of “non-Z” tribal loyalty.

        So there is more than a little justification in questioning the single swallow to know if it’s spring. No matter anyone’s subjective evaluation, there is a need for solid data. I still remember the tribals suddenly coming out in the open in 1967 and the ridiculously optimistic estimates offered before that.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 9, 2017, 12:55 pm

        single swallow? just wondering if you read the article above? note the petition/letter garnering 500 signatures of jewish scholars “immediately”. what do you think they meant by “A small group of self-appointed vigilantes … engaging in the worst kind of McCarthyism”?

        and when you say “outside Neturei Karta and what with the dying off of the Bundists, there isn’t much around” it makes me wonder if you ever even read the articles here! or maybe you think every single american jew who doesn’t march in lockstep with zoa, adl or one of the many jccr’s (jewish community relations councils) who mandate community behavior all over the US, belong to jvp and/or if not now and nary a jewish soul who’s not an avid zionist exists outside of those 2 groups. or maybe you don’t think the aclu, which forcefully opposes Israel Anti-Boycott Act, has jewish employers or supporters. i have no idea how many american jews outside of Neturei Karta, who do not march in lockstep w/the “small group of self-appointed vigilantes”, actually self identify as anti or non zionists. but logic demands i recognize there is a significant degree of fluidity of thought within the jewish community as a whole (if one could even speculate there is an american “jewish community as a whole” which in itself is debatable) and that Mark Oppenheimer, the author of the LA times article phil linked to above, isn’t the only jew in america who thinks “What if Myers were an anti-Zionist” — well so what!

        and the reason logic demands this of me is that this is basic human nature, for there to be dissenters of authority. and also if you open your ears you can hear the squealings of right wing tightening the noose around the “red lines” of what’s acceptable and the billionaires&millionaires (along w/the state of israel) filling coffers to hold back those dissenters whose numbers are growing.

        that said, i agree w/danaa. Unfortunately, they do hold sway over many of the largest donors to political and academic causes. And therein lies the problem.

        but the only people served by tooting your ‘nobody outside the wacko Neturei Karta — “In fact.. there isn’t much around”‘ are those right wing vigilantes extremists and the organized jewry trying to contain the hordes of dissenters. so what i wonder is why you are empowering them and not the 20% (by danaa’s estimation, i have no idea what the percentages are)? what kind of investment do you have in trying to convince us all “there isn’t much around” in terms of jewish opinion re israel except some monothematic delusion of nary another soul outside hard core organized jewry?

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 11:52 am

        “That’s something you could only prove with ironclad data”

        That’s right! Even tho American Jews are just about as ‘unchurched’ (so to speak) as non-Jewish Americans, there may be some secret back-channel communication we don’t know about!

      • Keith
        September 9, 2017, 2:14 pm

        DANAA- “Because if they don’t, the next question will be “what’s the matter with Judaism that it beget such organizations”?”

        An interesting and somewhat provocative comment. Comparing the political economy of Zionism to the political economy of Classical (medieval) Judaism. Israel Shahak considered Zionism (along with Orthodox Judaism) as a successor to Classical Judaism. Of course, conditions are not the same. During the period of Classical Judaism, Jews formed a separate and distinctive community apart from the surrounding Gentile community. Jews usually had distinctive dress, customs, language, and economic functions, and could be described as tribal. Nowadays, the various strands of the “Jewish” community are informally linked through the Zionist ideology and its emphasis on the Holocaust and eternal and irrational anti-Semitism. This has created a certain kinship affinity which unites many (most?) Jews in our multicultural society where Jews are physically assimilated, yet remain united to varying degrees based upon their Jewish identity. Secular Jews may not believe in God or Judaism per se, but they do believe in the Holocaust which has become somewhat of a religion among many (most?) Jews. Even anti-Zionist Jews tend to focus on any hint of anti-Semitism broadly defined.

        DANAA- “What is the matter with “organized Jewery” is the question that people should be asking….”

        From a purely material standpoint, organized Jewry has been spectacularly successful in pursuit of wealth and power. And to those dedicated to the pursuit of power, morality is a hindrance not a help. It has been this way throughout history which is one reason why wars and mass murder are so relatively common.

      • echinococcus
        September 9, 2017, 6:40 pm

        Annie,

        Sure, there is something in what you are reviewing here, but.
        Of course I read the articles here, by the way, and that is part of the problem: I’m discounting most of the wildly overoptimistic “liberal”Z stuff, which in fact is the majority (count them.) The objective of many of these is to ensure a continued invader presence in Palestine by thundering against the excesses of Zionism. I am also not counting (on the other side of the barricade) those who have quit the stupid identity games and call themselves plain human.

        Again, I have seen the 1967 Nazionist wave. I also remember the hopeful, happy assimilation talk before that. About such a lot of people finally abandoning the barbarian custom of defining themselves with respect to a long-dead obscurantist religion, as if it were some racial stamp –but look where we are now. Now I’m old and decrepit, I won’t listen to Sirens.

        So, solid data is still more necessary than unwarranted optimism. The news you mention are not impressive, and as far as I know the sympathies of a majority of those who call themselves “Jewish” don’t seem to have changed much.

        A good question was “what kind of investment do you have… ?” There is no investment but there should be, and how, in creating awareness in the general American public about the Nazis in Palestine. It means a general campaign based on property rights and the basic American values re slavery, conquest etc. This also means stopping all that ridiculous kowtowing to the special needs of an insignificant, and relatively refractory, percentage of the population.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 10, 2017, 12:23 am

        Of course I read the articles here, by the way, and that is part of the problem: I’m discounting most of the wildly overoptimistic “liberal”Z stuff, which in fact is the majority (count them.) The objective of many of these is to ensure a continued invader presence in Palestine

        lol — nwmt

      • Mooser
        September 10, 2017, 12:37 pm

        ” The objective of many of these is to ensure a continued invader presence in Palestine” “Echin”

        Thus severely compromising Mondo’s role in recruiting and organizing an anti-Zionist Crusade, as promised on the “About” page?

      • Mooser
        September 10, 2017, 12:44 pm

        “Even anti-Zionist Jews tend to focus on any hint of anti-Semitism broadly defined.” “Keith”

        And why, I ask you, why would an anti-Zionist Jew, who has no intention of going to Israel, or of limiting their associations to Jews, be the least bit concerned about anti-Semitism?

      • Keith
        September 10, 2017, 7:56 pm

        MOOSER- “And why, I ask you, why would an anti-Zionist Jew, who has no intention of going to Israel, or of limiting their associations to Jews, be the least bit concerned about anti-Semitism?”

        Why does M J Rosenberg see Mondoweiss seething with anti-Semites? Because irrational and eternal anti-Semitism is a core component of Zionist influenced Jewishness? Or do you doubt that this is so? Perhaps you agree with Rosenberg? You tell me.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 3:50 pm

        “You tell me.”

        Sorry, “Keith” I was just musing on the extreme amount of cognitive dissonance Zionists can sustain.

    • CigarGod
      September 9, 2017, 11:03 am

      Yes, I have commented on the certainty of backlash frequently. Historically, mobs don’t differentiate between the varieties of Jews or the ideologies of influence…inordinate or not.

      • Mooser
        September 9, 2017, 11:57 am

        ” Historically, mobs don’t differentiate between the varieties of Jews”

        Gee, do you think they will have any trouble differentiating between Jews and non-Jews?

      • CigarGod
        September 9, 2017, 8:51 pm

        You’re right, Mooser.
        I forgot to mention Jew Lovers.
        Mobs like to fill in blanks.
        _________ Lovers.
        _________ Lovers.

      • Mooser
        September 10, 2017, 12:39 pm

        “Mobs like to fill in blanks.”

        _______Wives
        _______Husbands
        _______ Children

        They will have to fill those in, too.

  2. JosephA
    September 8, 2017, 11:10 pm

    Phil, this piece about David Myers was fascinating. When reading it, strangely, I was reminded of the plot of “The Godfather”. The character Michael Corleone is harassed by the police and then they can’t find any dirt on him, because he’s a veteran with a clean past. David Myers seems like this sort of thoughtful “intellectual veteran”, and no matter what the racist (zionist) right wing fanatics try to do, or claim, it won’t stick because he has a devotion to honest scholarship and realistic principles.

  3. MHughes976
    September 9, 2017, 5:56 am

    I didn’t see any anti-Z in Myers’ review of Yizhar, the evidence cited by his detractors, to say that the sins of Z should be admitted is very much not the same as saying that Z was or is wrong. Even this obviously too much for some but I’m sure it is Myers, not they, who are secure in the mainstream. Myers follows the not-so-New Historians in accepting that there were more expulsions than was once claimed but he seems almost to accept that mere exclusions, as if fleeing a war zone deprived you of your rights and your home, were fairly legitimate. He completely excludes the right of return.

  4. JeffB
    September 10, 2017, 9:03 am

    @Annie

    Your church over the last decade has banned:
    Roman Catholic Diocese of Lincoln — banned over support for abortion
    Community of the Lady of All Nations — banned over the belief that Mary has reincarnated
    Fr. Roy Bourgeois — excommunicated for ordaining a female priest
    etc…

    The right to practice church discipline, that is the right to set religious standards, is the reason the pilgrims fled the Anglican Church and came to America. Institutional Jews and the Jewish community more generally have always held that working directly with the enemies of the Jewish people is grounds for religious expulsion. There is nothing new here.

    You are one of those enemies. I get that you don’t see yourself that way, but it doesn’t change the reality of how you are seen withing Judaism. An overwhelming majority of Jews believe that getting their country back was a huge blessing, not a curse. They are not embarrassed about ending 19 centuries of horrific Jewish suffering and their physical destruction by establishing a state and an army. They have no intention of going back to the misery of statelessness under any conditions ever. In the mainstream Jewish community the idea that Israel is and should be Jewish the way France is French is not controversial. The belief that Jews are entitled to a state is not controversial. There are disagreements about how to balance being as humane as possible towards the Palestinians with the absolutely vital protection of Zionism’s success. But there is no debate that Israel is “our state” and defense and support of Israel is a Jewish obligation. AIPAC is slightly to the right of the Jewish mainstream, not drastically out of step.

    I may disagree with things my wife, brother, sister or daughter does. I don’t work to execute them over that disagreement. Jews don’t have the language of being “in communion” and thus they in a literal sense can’t practice “excommunication”. But in a slightly broader sense of the term they can and they do. Anti-Zionism among Jews is treated the way Christians treat heretical beliefs. JVP is a sect that in so far as they are Jewish (since they admit non Jews) preaches heresy from the pulpit.

    As for religious groups not exercising that kind of power in America. Evangelical protestants own a political party. Catholics control a huge percentage of city governments and dominate the other one. Mormons control an entire state. Jews have a top 20 lobby. And finally African Americans, to use your analogy, control the longest lasting most united Congressional Caucus in USA history.

    The Jewish lobby’s sole demand is that of the 195 countries in the world, there is one you can’t actively work for the destruction of. That leaves 194 countries that the Jewish lobby is mostly indifferent to, and so you can freely advocate the problems in those societies be solved by their annihilation. Most Americans don’t see what the Jewish lobby is pushing for as an outrageous demand. They have no problems that American Jews have the same loving relationship with their homeland that American Turks do with Turkey and Chinese-Americans do with China. This isn’t seen as controversial or even all that notable. Most Americans would rather the USA be less involved in annihilation of all sorts of foreign societies. Iraq didn’t go that well. Why would they want to the USA to become the enemy of an even more powerful country, one whom they see as generally helping the USA and a force for stability? Again this position of hating Israel and seeing it as an opponent of the USA is not part of the political mainstream.

    • Annie Robbins
      September 10, 2017, 4:38 pm

      Your church over the last decade has banned:

      jeff, my church? i don’t have a church nor was a raised w/any religion or any church nor have i read the bible or been a member of any church. to my knowledge neither of my parents ever believed in god. my (many) siblings and i were all raised non religiously and remain so. as a child and young adult, although my parents, siblings and i had jewish friends and neighbors, i had no idea what or who a jew was, nor any reason to know as it was not relevant in our small town where everyone knew each other. i didn’t find out until i was an adult who my jewish friends were. but i always knew who the catholic kids on the block were because they went to a different school and wore uniforms.

      since you posted to the main thread and not under any subthread i don’t know what your comment is in regards to. i also don’t recall referencing judaism in this thread (unlike danaa and keith), a topic i rarely discuss because i don’t know much about it. i’ll give your ideas in this comment more consideration once i know more specifically what it is you are referencing.

      • JeffB
        September 11, 2017, 12:21 am

        @Annie

        Sorry I thought you were Catholic. Anyway the comment this was in response to was, “ organized jewry is constantly pretending to speak for the jewish community even tho they don’t. other groups don’t have the same kind of power to pull this kind of crap all the time nor the media/finance behind them to place full page ads in papers and hire fancy pr guys or lobbiests to get their opinions plastered all over the msm at the drop of a hat.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 11, 2017, 12:37 am

        nope, not catholic. in fact i recall being taken to the pavement here on these threads at one time for sounding anti-catholic. too much kneeling. but i’m down w/the wine and cookies. ;)

        thanks for citing me. ok, it may be true because i am an activist for palestine that i am just more aware of members of organized jewry pulling this crap. salaita, that canary site trying to prevent activist from being hired, the “Anonymous anti-BDS group publishes ‘blacklist’ of boycott supporters in New York” current post, norm finkelstein, etc etc and so many other name and shame kind of stuff.

        so, i’m open to being persuaded otherwise. can you be so kind as to source, link or direct me to other ethnic group witch hunt in the US — organizing to have people fired over a similar claim as the one against myers? or salaita, or norm? anything relatively current? maybe it’s not just organized jewry who do this routinely. by all means enlighten me and i will gladly apologize and eat crow.

      • Nathan
        September 11, 2017, 7:57 am

        Annie Robbins – You claim never to have read the Bible. So much of world culture in the arts and literature is based on the themes of the Bible. It’s a real classic, the very pillar of western civilization. You might want to take off a few days and look over the book. It’s part of being an intelligent person.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 12:59 pm

        “it takes trolling to a whole new level.”

        Yup, I’m thinking “Jeff B’s” next post will say:

        ‘”Annie” doesn’t have a church. She has a coven!’

      • Annie Robbins
        September 11, 2017, 1:20 pm

        i’ve tried a few times nathan but i get too bored trying to read it. i even bought r.crumb’s illustrated book of genesis thinking it might make it easier but no such luck. it just doesn’t call to me at all. i don’t mind being part of the uncultured masses.

        regarding intelligence, i’m more drawn to the idea of valuing common sense. in school, i always excelled in math and puzzles that could be solved w/logic.

      • amigo
        September 11, 2017, 1:39 pm

        “You might want to take off a few days and look over the book. It’s part of being an intelligent person.”Nathan.

        F Scott Fitzgerald wrote the following !!.(or words to that effect).

        “Intellect it is said , begins with the ability to hold 2 opposed points of view and still be able to function.”

        Clearly reading The Bible has not worked on you or any zionist who see only one point of view.

        ” It’s a real classic, the very pillar of western civilization.” Nathan.

        Maybe that explains why we are so screwed up in the West.On the positive side, just how much worse it would be if we followed that great pillar of Eastern civilization—The Torah.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 2:43 pm

        “You are one of those enemies. I get that you don’t see yourself that way, but it doesn’t change the reality of how you are seen withing Judaism.”

        Jumping Jehoshaphat , “Annie”, this is serious! “Jeffy B” is going to get you expelled from Judaism! We have to fight this.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 11, 2017, 3:01 pm

        oh mooser, i am so well aware of what the fanatics think of me. all you have to do is google my name and you can read all the blog posts written about what a horrid anti semitie i am. why even tablet squeezed me into some shaming article that had nothing to do with me! and then they lied in the article and claimed whatever they were exposing had been scrubbed from mondoweiss… which it wasn’t, all my so called sins are all still here in black and white, in the archives!

      • gamal
        September 11, 2017, 3:05 pm

        “but i get too bored trying to read it”

        “i always excelled in math and puzzles that could be solved w/logic”

        ” i don’t mind being part of the uncultured masses”

        there is more religion in those few words than acres of dry scripture, makes me think of the great syncretist Majig Labdron (1055-1149), who both summed up the practise of religion in 4 (2) words

        “Relax, relax. Alert, alert” what else do you need to know?

        and formulated Jod (chod) practise, which is a complete path, requiring neither intelligence nor education nor status, confidence but only diligence and fearlessness, alone at night in scary places offering your body to demons…its good fun, beating a damaru, giving up your flesh cold hungry, ill, alone.

        anyone can train to be brave and hardworking, and it doesn’t change anything or save anyone from anything thats real religion, you don’t gain anything but lose everything, clever people often don’t do well at this game, they think too much and worry.

        one observes …and it liberates

        as soon as it arises….it liberates

        of itself it liberates

        and for this course all you need to qualify is breath, clever people usually progress very slowly, in religion the dumb dominate, i am fully qualified 3 times over.

        subhanallah

      • Annie Robbins
        September 11, 2017, 4:01 pm

        alone at night in scary places offering your body to demons…its good fun…

        one observes …and it liberates

        as soon as it arises….it liberates

        of itself it liberates

        i have some frightening stories! started to describe one but changed my mind — too personal ;)

        may the force be with you gamal —

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 3:27 pm

        “you can read all the blog posts written about what a horrid anti semitie i am.”

        Maybe you are an auto-anti-Semite. What religion is your car?

      • Sibiriak
        September 12, 2017, 3:24 am

        Those who don’t read the Bible can easily feel isolated these days:

        Insiders—many of whom are afraid to come forward—say [CIA Director] Pompeo’s religious beliefs are becoming part of CIA dogma to the dismay of longtime employees.

        “According to four sources familiar with the matter, Pompeo, who attends weekly Bible studies held in government buildings, referenced God and Christianity repeatedly in his first all-hands speech and in a recent trip report while traveling overseas,” the report states, adding that since taking over, Pompeo has also set about establishing a chaplaincy on the CIA campus.

        A spokesperson for the CIA defended the move, saying, “Director Pompeo is a man of faith. The idea that he should not practice his faith because he is Director of CIA is absurd.”

        According to Michael Weinstein, founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, he is being flooded with complaints about the creeping evangelical Christianity that is beginning to pervade the intelligence agency.

        Weinstein notes that insiders are afraid to speak up, stating, “They don’t typically file formal complaints within the government. But certain things are making them especially uncomfortable, such as officials signing off with the phrase ‘have a blessed day.’ That’s something “straight out of The Handmaid’s Tale.”

        “In the intelligence community, we see supervisors wanting to hold Bible studies during duty hours [and] inviting lower-ranking individuals to their homes for Bible studies,” Weinstein continued. “Our clients at CIA feel extremely isolated in a way they have not felt before.”

        The CIA dismissed complaints about the Christian influence at the agency, saying they are staying true to their mission.

        http://www.alternet.org/right-wing/straight-out-handmaids-tale-insiders-claim-cia-director-pompeo-turning-agency-christian

      • Annie Robbins
        September 12, 2017, 11:27 am

        what a frightening link Sibiriak. not that i’m any kind of fan of the cia, it’s already so corrupt. but gads — a wacko evangelical fanatic running the cia!

    • Mooser
      September 10, 2017, 5:05 pm

      .” Institutional Jews and the Jewish community more generally have always held that working directly with the enemies of the Jewish people is grounds for religious expulsion. There is nothing new here.”

      My G-d, we need to expel well over half of the Jewish people, probably a lot more!

      Just think how powerful, united and populous Judaism will be then!

      • Annie Robbins
        September 10, 2017, 5:16 pm

        i got so lost on that comment mooser, something about not executing family members, jvp preaching from a pulpit and “how to balance being as humane as possible towards the Palestinians” — completely unfamiliar (and unrecognizable) territory. i mean, how to counter argue this kind of nonsense. it takes trolling to a whole new level.

        and who said religious groups don’t exercise power in America??? certainly not me!

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 4:23 pm

        “i got so lost on that comment mooser,”

        He just types. “Jeff B” is the storm surge of logorrhea.

    • RoHa
      September 11, 2017, 2:13 am

      JeffB says it, so it must be official. The majority of American Jews share the immoral and crackpot ideas of the Zionists.

      (I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t be allowed to get away with such a slur, even if it is true. But JeffB has said it.)

      • eljay
        September 13, 2017, 9:03 am

        || RoHa: JeffB says it, so it must be official. The majority of American Jews share the immoral and crackpot ideas of the Zionists.

        (I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t be allowed to get away with such a slur, even if it is true. But JeffB has said it.) ||

        Here’s another thing JeffB said that you and I wouldn’t be allowed to get away with:

        There is nothing anti-Semitic with blaming Jews for stuff that Jews institutionally support. … Not holding the Jews responsible for Jewish policy on the excuse that “well some Jews didn’t agree” is denying them agency. …

        And there’s also this gem:

        Jews in America have chosen to identify with and institutionally support Israel. While not Israeli, they are cousins. As such they get some degree of collective credit for Israelis achievements and some degree of blame for Israel’s failings.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 13, 2017, 9:41 am

        total garbage. someone should put him out of his misery already.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 12:52 pm

        “total garbage. someone should put him out of his misery already.”

        I don’t know about that, but I sure wish somebody would put him out of our misery.

    • RoHa
      September 11, 2017, 2:19 am

      “Israel is and should be Jewish the way France is French”

      But France isn’t French.

      (The citizens of France are French, and they are French because they are citizens of France. That’s what makes them French.)

      So it would seem that Israel isn’t Jewish.

      • JeffB
        September 12, 2017, 5:59 am

        @RoHa

        Funny when I go to France I notice actual differences from Americans:
        a) Higher tax / higher service economy
        b) More intellectualism
        c) They speak French not English
        d) A lot more castles and cathedrals
        e) They use a lot more cream in their cooking and eat pates

        etc… Yes France is French. And that is not merely a result of citizenship. If French citizenship were abandoned and replaced with EU citizenship these people would still have these characteristics. The nation is french, the french nation created and maintains the french state. Earlier states played a role in forming the French nation but today and for many hundreds of years it exists independently as a nation.

      • RoHa
        September 13, 2017, 3:37 am

        So when you say “France is French”, you mean that French citizens share a culture that they developed in France. For Israel to be analogous, then, Israeli would be Israeli (as Eljay said)in the sense that Israeli citizens share a culture that they developed in Israel.

        In some of your comments you seem to be saying that in the sweet bye-and-bye there will be an Israeli culture that will include Palestinians as full and equal citizens, but that it will take an unspecified amount of time before this eventuates.

        Of course, promises of jam tomorrow do not justify or lessen the evil of the wrongs committed yesterday and today.

        And I see no sign of this jam ever arriving. The Israeli government could take steps right now to start the integration, but it doesn’t. From my outsider’s position, it seems that the current Israeli aim is to destroy and expel as many Palestinians as it can, rather than to integrate them.

      • JeffB
        September 13, 2017, 1:22 pm

        @RoHa

        During this generation the economic status of Israeli-Arabs increased remarkably. You have a huge number of Israeli-Arabs in the Israeli middle class assuming positions of leadership all throughout the society. Park of the reason for the political backlash and the uptick in petty social racism in Israel is the tremendous success in this generation in economic integration. There is also the full ascension of Mizrahi Jews to political power, something that the Mondoweissers tend to be extremely negative about in practice (while being quite in favor in theory). Mizrahi Jews act as a lower bar for for economic, cultural and social integration for Palestinians than an Ashkenazi culture. Here is an amusing analogy from an American perspective of black integration with southern vs. northern culture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7VaXlMvAvk

        If you are saying that Israel is doing things less effectively and less quickly than I think possible, I don’t disagree. That being said a fair view of Israel shows it happening and happening quite quickly. I think there is more Israel could do. I’d love to see the demonization stop and the discussion be about how to enhance the constructive gradual reform.

    • eljay
      September 11, 2017, 9:32 am

      || JeffB: … In the mainstream Jewish community the idea that Israel is and should be Jewish the way France is French is not controversial. … ||

      France is French so Israel should be Israeli – that’s not controversial.
      France is French so “Israel is and should be Jewish” – that’s Zionist.

      || … The belief that Jews are entitled to a state is not controversial. … ||

      It’s a shame that the “mainstream Jewish community” is comprised of Jewish supremacists (Zionists).

      • JeffB
        September 11, 2017, 10:26 am

        @eljay

        That is happening. It takes time. Israel is a young country. A century or two from now Israel will be Israeli. The distinction between Jewish and Israeli is disappearing rapidly. Judaism is returning to its natural role as a tribal religion not a global faith. The distinction that bothers you so (and uniquely in the case of Israel, doesn’t bother you all with Finland) has declined remarkably during my lifetime. The overwhelming number of Jews outside the United States are either Israeli expatriate, married to an Israeli, have a home in Israel, travel their frequently… The Orthodox American Jewish community is similar. The liberal American Jewish community increasingly identifies Israel as the centerpiece of their faith. Hitler wiped out the center of Judaism and put tremendous pressure on the American Jewish community to lead where they were unable to lead. Israel has taken that role over already.

        What happens when the Temple is restored and there is once again a Jewish priesthood tied to the state? What happens when the Sanhedrin is restored and the binding doctrines and interpretations of Judaism originate from Israel exclusively (the role the Vatican plays)?

        You often make this point. But I think you should think about it a bit more. What really is the distinction between Japanese and Shinto? What really is the distinction between Greek Orthodox and Greek?
        Or to use our latest example what really is the distinction between Finnish Evangelical Lutheran and Finnish?

        Human’s lives are measured in decades, nation’s lives are measured in centuries. This week you didn’t have any objection to Finland discrimination regarding their state church. And you didn’t because in Finland the nation building process has finished. Sure there are a were about ten thousand Jews who lived there hated it and mostly left when Israel became available. But nobody really cares anymore. They came to a settlement with the Finnish Orthodox and today Finland is a bastion of democracy so much so that Finnish people can pretend their history never happened and the Jews there oh so loved being Finnish.

        There is nothing wrong with the Palestinians. They can become Israeli. In the end there won’t be a difference. But it will take time.
        You want equality, you want reform of Israel not annihilation of Israel. You want Palestinians to join Israel and for their descendents to be fully Israel without distinction.

        Your rhetoric contradicts itself. Your frequent rapist analogy will fail but were to succeed it leads to a radioactive chemically poisoned country incapable of supporting any human life. Sieverts are not bigots nor antisemites. They see the equality of all humanity and will kill Jews and Palestinians equally.

        Decide on what outcome you want. Equality through national formation or equality in death. Right now you are working for the latter while claiming to support the former.

      • echinococcus
        September 11, 2017, 10:54 am

        Ejay, yet again.

        France is French so Israel should be Israeli – that’s not controversial.

        Not controversial, eh?
        Palestine, illegally occupied by a bunch of armed colonials from Russia and America and Mars, should be “Israeli”.
        Says the Zio propaganda guy. The effective one.

      • echinococcus
        September 11, 2017, 11:03 am

        Jeff says:

        Israel is a young country. A century or two from now Israel will be Israeli.

        That’s precisely why everyone must help the Palestinian people kick that monster out of there.

      • eljay
        September 11, 2017, 12:47 pm

        || JeffB @ September 11, 2017, 10:26 am ||

        Wow, that’s a lot of words just to say that in your view Israel should continue to exist as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 2:26 pm

        “France is French so Israel should be Israeli”

        “Israel will never be free until the last Zionist is strangled with the entrails of the last Rabbi.”?

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 4:08 pm

        “Judaism is returning to its natural role as a tribal religion not a global faith.”

        Awww, what a nice way of saying that Judaism is dying.

      • Mooser
        September 12, 2017, 11:55 am

        “Human’s lives are measured in decades,” “Jeff B”

        “Jeff B”, you sure make a good argument against wasting too much time on your comments.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 10:30 pm

        “What happens when the Temple is restored and there is once again a Jewish priesthood tied to the state? What happens when the Sanhedrin is restored and the binding doctrines and interpretations of Judaism originate from Israel exclusively”

        ROTFLMSJAO!! “Binding” You bet, “Jeffy B” the Jewish people just can’t wait to be ruled by the same corrupt and always wrong bunch of con-artists that got us into our predicament in the first place? I doubt it.

    • JeffB
      September 11, 2017, 1:48 pm

      @Annie

      A few cites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Catholic_Church

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_excommunicated_by_Presbyterian_churches

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_excommunicated_by_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_excommunicated_by_Methodist_churches

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_excommunicated_by_the_Greek_Orthodox_Church

      A fairly long discussion of the practice among Jehovah’s Witnesses: https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/disfellowship-shunning.php

      And finally even the Quakers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_disowned_by_the_Quakers

      Just to show this can happen to non members here is a simple example Rebecca Hancock who was a member of Grace Community Church, tried to quit under discipline was publicly excommunicated. Complained and got slammed. Here is a video from a well known Christian radio host talking about her case at length: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcPtxSFK9g8

      I could cite far more articles.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 2:29 pm

        “I could cite far more articles.”

        All completely irrelevant.

        ” Institutional Jews and the Jewish community more generally have always held that working directly with the enemies of the Jewish people is grounds for religious expulsion.” “Jeff B” above.

        Cite some of those expulsions, “Jeffy”

        Or is the Reform movement and secular Jews proof enough of the expulsion power of “Institutional Jews and the Jewish community”?

      • Annie Robbins
        September 11, 2017, 2:50 pm

        thanks jeff, but i didn’t even reference excommunication, you did. scroll up to the top of the page. this has nothing to do with excommunication. it has to do w/pr guys writing very public newspaper articles. it has to do w/public shaming and a threat to cut off funds to a jewish history center, not that different than extremists threatening to have donors cut off funding to a university, or a political party, if they do not get their way.

        as for rebecca hancock, this doesn’t really cut the mustard since it was rebecca herself who went to the press. the church didn’t publicly shame her and write articles in the press threatening to cut off her livelihood. they wrote her a letter and threatened to expose her to the congregation. it didn’t involve the public at all as far as i know.

        i know scientology does this kind of cult retribution.

        anyway, i guess that would be a “no”, you have no current examples. surely you can find even one big public shunning w/threats and everything? no?

        I could cite far more articles.

        try one. thus far you have not cited even one article. a wiki link on historical excommunications is not an “article”. again:

        link or direct me to other ethnic group witch hunt in the US — organizing to have people fired over a similar claim as the one against myers? or salaita, or norm? anything relatively current?

    • Keith
      September 11, 2017, 6:53 pm

      JEFFB- “They are not embarrassed about ending 19 centuries of horrific Jewish suffering….”

      If only the Gentiles had allowed Jews to become peasants rather than forcing them to be merchants, craftsmen, financiers, tax collectors, jailers, etc, think of the suffering that would have been prevented! Oh well, water under the bridge as they say.

      • JeffB
        September 12, 2017, 8:20 am

        @Keith

        When President Benjamin Harrison complained about the horrific Russian mistreatment of Jewish peasants was he lying and these peasants didn’t actually exist?

      • Mooser
        September 12, 2017, 12:02 pm

        “these peasants didn’t actually exist?”

        Research later proved these so-called “peasants” were merchants, craftsmen, financiers, tax collectors, jailers, etc, at a summer theater camp rehearsing “Fiddler on the Roof”.

      • Keith
        September 12, 2017, 3:11 pm

        JEFFB- “When President Benjamin Harrison complained about the horrific Russian mistreatment of Jewish peasants was he lying and these peasants didn’t actually exist?”

        Benjamin Harris is your authority on Jewish history? Interesting choice. That being the case, you could at least have the decency to quote him rather than putting words in his mouth. In order to provide my fellow Mondoweissers with some real Jewish history, I have decided to provide extensive quotes from Israel Shahak, Yuri Slezkine and Bejamin Ginsberg.

        “Classical Jewish society had no peasants, and in that it differs from earlier Jewish societies in the two centres, Palestine and Mesopetania. It is difficult for us, in modern times, to understand what this means. We have to make an effort to to imagine what serfdom was like; the enormous difference in literacy, let alone education, between village and town throughout this period; the incomparably greater freedom enjoyed by all the small minority who were not peasants — in order to realize that during the whole of the classical period the Jews, in spite of all the persecutions to which they were subjected, formed an integral part of the privileged classes. Jewish historiography, especially in English, is misleading on this point inasmuch as it tends to focus on Jewish poverty and anti-Jewish discrimination. Both were real enough at times; but the poorest Jewish craftsman, pedlar, landlord’s steward or petty cleric was immeasurably better off than a serf. This was particularly true in those European countries where serfdom persisted into the 19th century, whether in partial or extreme form: Prussia, Austria (including Hungary), Poland and the Polish lands taken by Russia. And it is not without significance that, prior to the great Jewish migration of modern times (around 1880), a large majority of all Jews were living in those areas and that their most important social function there was to mediate the oppression of the peasants on behalf of the nobility and crown.

        Everywhere, classical Judaism developed hatred and contempt for for agriculture as an occupation and for peasants as a class, even more than for other Gentiles- a hatred of which I know no parallel in other societies. This is immediately apparent to anyone who is familiar with the Yiddish or Hebrew literature of the 19th and 20th centuries.” (p52-53, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

        “Most important, they were affected by Russia’s late-nineteenth-century modernization in ways that were more direct, profound, and fundamental than most other Russian communities because their very existence as a specialized caste was at stake. The emancipation of the serfs, the demise of the manorial economy, and the expansion of the economic role of the state rendered the role of the traditional Mercurian mediator between the countryside and the town economically irrelevant, legally precarious, and increasingly dangerous.” (p115, “The Jewish Century,” Yuri Slezkine)

        “…the social role of the Jews as an integral part of the upper classes. In many countries Jews were treated as potential nobles and, upon conversion, were able to immediately intermarry with the highest nobility. The nobility of 15th century Castile and Aragon or the aristocracy of 18th century Poland- to take the two cases where intermarriage with converted Jews was widespread – would hardly be likely to marry Spanish peasants or Polish serfs, no matter how much praise the gospel has for the poor.” (p67, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

        “Politically, the position of Jews in the Christian Spanish kingdoms was the highest ever attained by Jews in any country…before the 19th century. Many Jews served officially as Treasurers General to the kings of Castile, regional and general tax collectors, diplomats (representing their king in foreign courts, both Muslim and Christian, even outside Spain), courtiers and advisers to rulers and great noblemen.” (p59-60, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak) He also indicates that the Rabbis had considerable authority over the local Jewish population including capital punishment.

        “During the fifteenth and Sixteenth centuries, Jews came to play a major role in the fiscal affairs and administration of the Ottoman empire….Jews dominated the imperial revenue system, serving as tax collectors, tax farmers, tax intendants, and tax inspectors. Jews also created and operated the imperial customs service. Indeed, so complete was Jewish control over this segment of the Ottoman state that Ottoman customs receipts were typically written in Hebrew.” (p15, “The Fatal Embrace: Jews and them State,” Benjamin Ginsberg)

      • JeffB
        September 13, 2017, 1:33 pm

        @Keith

        I’m going to have to postpone this argument. What you are saying has some merit to it. I’d like to see more data and those quotes in a larger context. I stand by my statement that your idea that there is no Jewish peasantry is simply not true. The letter from the president was one quick piece of evidence there are pictures in the Getty of Jewish peasants, there are references materials from Russia on Jewish peasant migrations and deaths… I found plenty of references to their existence.

        That being said as I started pulling up details to quickly refute your point the details were a bit surprising. In a world where 90+% of the population were peasants / serfs Jews seemed to be in the 50% range. When there were Jewish peasants in what quantities and why I have to get a better handle on since the numbers seem to swing wildly. So while not agreeing with your strong point that no Jewish peasantry ever existed I am right now going to have to learn some more before debating this.

        I’ll score this point for you.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 5:01 pm

        “Keith” , that was very informative. And I thought it was only since ’67 we all became aristocrats. Now I see it may go back further.

        “I’ll score this point for you.” “Jeff B”

        Of course you will, “Jeff B”. Anybody can see you bear the hallmarks of aristocratic breeding. Be hard for you to deny it.

      • Keith
        September 13, 2017, 6:47 pm

        JEFFB- “In a world where 90+% of the population were peasants / serfs Jews seemed to be in the 50% range.”

        Rubbish! It was only in Eastern Europe that even a small fraction of Jews were engaged in agriculture as farmers, not peasants/serfs. At the beginning of the twentieth century, “Most of Russian Jews (about 90 percent) resided in the Pale of Settlement, to which they were legally restricted. Most of the Jews in the Pale of Settlement (all but about 4 percent, who were farmers and factory workers) continued to pursue traditional service occupations as middlemen between the overwhelmingly agricultural Christian population and various urban markets.” (p105, “The Jewish Century,” Yuri Slezkine) Slezkine lists various occupations which I won’t go into.

        If you wish to pursue this, you will need to provide quotes and links/references. I don’t know what the “Getty” is and I am not going to be persuaded by the political statement of a late 19th century American President. Enough of this “Fiddler on the Roof” myth-history!

  5. pabelmont
    September 10, 2017, 10:08 am

    There is nothing at all new about Zionists terrorizing Jews. The purpose is get Jews to act like Zionists whatever they may feel or believe to make them unwilling to do so. They want, in Chomsky’s phrase, if maybe not in his meaning, to “manufacture consent” to Zionist practice.

    The long and short of it is that a bunch of Jews, by no means a majority before 1948, was determined to create a majority Jewish state and that determination would be served by getting the unwilling to appear to be willing. Coercion and suppression and censorship were the answer. The claim, to love Jews is to love Zionism, was always a lie, but the Zionists were determined to make a majority of Jews say it was the truth.

    Jewish terrorism (that is, terrorism practiced by people who claim to be Jewish) has been a feature of Zionism from the start, before 1948. And much of it was practiced against Jews who did not toe the Zionist line. Einstein letter of 1948 mentions this.

    During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

    So does “Israel’s Sacred Terrorism.” So do some of the revisionist Israeli historians.

  6. JeffB
    September 10, 2017, 10:15 am

    @Phil

    A lot of my efforts on this site are devoted to Liberal Zionists in Exodus, and I see Myers as such a figure. …Liberal Zionists in Exodus are thoughtful people who once believed in the Zionist dream or something like it but cannot deny what Israel has become after 50 years of occupation. They are just not sure what to do about it. There are thousands of them out there: people who feel that this website or Jewish Voice for Peace are too radical for them, but something awful is happening in Israel, and they must not be in the position of covering it up or lying about it. The main watering holes for Liberal Zionists in Exodus are The New Israel Fund and IfNotNow, both of which avoid the word Zionism. They know it’s become a dirty word for young Jews.

    Agree with what you wrote and I like the term “Liberal Zionists in Exodus” for this group. I think the differentiation between JVP and IfNotNow type figures is really important. I like the JStreet-U line on defining this distinction, “are you critiquing Israel from a place of love?” Myers FWIW belongs to the “Liberal Zionists in Exodus” camp.

    The main watering holes for Liberal Zionists in Exodus are The New Israel Fund and IfNotNow, both of which avoid the word Zionism . They know it’s become a dirty word for young Jews.

    Now onto disagreement. Again I think you tend to grossly exaggerate the degree of alienation among young Jews. I think young Jews are overwhelming pro-Zionist. The second thing I think is that critiquing Zionism gets into an ideological battle. Arguing that Zionism, or the fruits of Zionism is illegitimate while being perfectly OK with the Reconquista and the continuing existence of Spain is a very hard position to defend. It’s one issue that BDSers simply don’t have a good answer to, “why Israel”. Every existing country’s history is filled with violence, why should Israel be uniquely singled out for destruction on that basis? FWIW I think Michael Neumann I think answered this objection best.

    I believe the reason that INN and NIF don’t discuss Zionism is they want to focus on acts on not state. It is the same technique that blacks have used with regard to racism. Whether someone is racist or not is a complex discussion, whether a particular act is racist is not. Racist for a person in today’s world is delegitimizing it is an assertion of that a person is irredeemably evil. Racist for an act makes a discussion possible. A person may disagree or they may see that in retrospect their act was racist repent and change. I think that’s the goal of INN and NIF language to have a discussion about Israeli policies that are changeable not Israel’s being that is unchangeable.

    • Mooser
      September 10, 2017, 5:31 pm

      “Jeff b” let’s give credit where it’s due. You are, without a doubt, the best typist on this site.

  7. yonah fredman
    September 11, 2017, 9:28 am

    I think the passage of time since the Rabin assassination accounts for the alienation of liberal American Jews from the right wing party domination of Israel. The interim of: intermittent hope and cruel second intifada, has given way to regular wars against Gaza and an israeli government that campaigns on a platform of no hope.
    The breakthrough that Rabin achieved with his handshake on the White House lawn was applauded by some and filled others with doubt. Even those of us who applauded lived through headlines that filled us with fears, but when Rabin was assassinated, there was a clear division between those who were opposed to both Rabin and his assassination and those of us who did not mix our grief for his murder with any qualifiers.
    Then came the up and down years: First Netanyahu in his first term in office, reluctantly shaking Arafat’s hand and reaching an agreement regarding Hebron. Then the election of Ehud Barak and the promise of reaching some agreement. Then Camp David and its failure and the ramifications. Then the second intifada (which of course took place during the period that included the World Trade Center attack, 16 years ago today). Then the election of Arik Sharon and his withdrawal from Gaza. Then the election of Olmert and serious negotiations between Olmert and Abbas. But since the Gaza war of 2008-2009, followed shortly by the election of Netanyahu a few months later, there really has been no ups and downs, but only downs and downs.
    It is this recent freezing of hope on the part of American Liberal Zionists that is to explain for the Jews in Exodus: There was a type of roller coaster ride from the handshake in 1993 until the Gaza war of 2008, that allowed for a sporadic belief that peace might be just a few steps away. Since 2009 such a belief has more or less disappeared and those who supported Rabin have been left with nowhere to turn.

    • Mooser
      September 11, 2017, 1:06 pm

      Not quite as good, “yonah”. Some spelling and syntax mistakes, run-on and incomplete sentences.

      “yonah” use “Jeff B” for an example. Remember, just because you aren’t making any sense, and are picking factoids out of the old cloaca is no reason for spelling or grammatical mistakes.

  8. JeffB
    September 11, 2017, 3:28 pm

    @Annie

    this has nothing to do with excommunication. it has to do w/pr guys writing very public newspaper articles. it has to do w/public shaming and a threat to cut off funds to a jewish history center, not that different than extremists threatening to have donors cut off funding to a university, or a political party, if they do not get their way.

    Excommunication by its nature is a public declaration that the person is no longer a member of the church. The purpose is public shaming. Institutions that are banned do not receive funds, etc… Yes what you are describing is excommunication. That’s what excommunication is, a public declaration of non membership and quite often boycott against a person or institution.

    What Jews don’t do is call it excommunication because they don’t have the concept of being “in communion”. Other than language it is the same process done essentially the same way to achieve the same end. Religious groups all have bounds one is not allowed to cross and a history of enforcement.

    Threatening a University is apply pressure tactics. Again religious groups do this all the time. For example the Southern Baptist boycott of Disney, or a similar evangelical one against Starbucks. The Salvation Army and associated groups against Target.

    Of course the most serious threats regarding Universities and funding come from Liberals who conditioned financial aide based on adherence to a long list of federal mandates. Hillsdale College being the only secular institution I know of that stood up to Liberals on that one. There are a lot more religious schools which took the religious exemption, and they still lose eligibility for most research grants. So if you want a group that terrorizes Universities far more than Jews over more money, your group.

    • Annie Robbins
      September 11, 2017, 3:49 pm

      jeff, so that would be a “no”. no “group witch hunt in the US — organizing to have people fired over a similar claim as the one against myers? or salaita, or norm“?

      somehow picking on starbucks or disney doesn’t quite hold the same kind of personal public outing w/the media in tow. but thanks for your efforts.

      • JeffB
        September 11, 2017, 5:22 pm

        @Annie

        No it wouldn’t be a no. Those links had lots of examples.

        Mark Driscol endured the same sort of thing. A widespread media attack on his person (organized by Christian Liberals). Controversy started over his strong support for complementarianism within the Emerging Church Movement. Went on for years. This constant backdrop drummed him out of his own organization (Acts29 ) and a large public group (the Gospel Coalition).

        C. J. Mahaney of Sovereign Grace Ministries is another guy drummed out by broad media criticism, in this case having to do with his view on juvenile rape (juveniles doing the rape) and adolescents molesting prepubescents. Heavy media criticism as sex abuse in churches is a hot topic. Proof of his direct involvement in any of the incidents didn’t exist but proof of his involvement in the cover ups did.

        It also happens to Jews over other issues. Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz attacked Manischewitz’s kashrut standards. The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America launched a series of personal attacks against him which forced him to take medical leave from his duties due to the stress. They wanted to make it absolutely clear that the break from Manishewitz was not a matter of debate within the OU and that Horowitz was being deceptive not merely incorrect.

        So no that’s not a no. Enforcing community standards is normal behavior for a religion. Defending itself against external attackers is normal behavior for a religion. You just don’t run into it, because you only systematically meaningfully attack one religion and only on one issue.

      • Annie Robbins
        September 11, 2017, 10:47 pm

        in this case having to do with his view on juvenile rape (juveniles doing the rape) and adolescents molesting prepubescents.

        no that’s not true. i don’t think you know what you’re talking about re Mahaney. the church he presided over had at least 90 victims, including fathers having sex with their daughters and outright cases of pedophilia (adult males raping children). it was covered up for decades because the church preached silence and forgiving the perpetrators and counseling families not to go to the police. there’s no relation at all to what i was referencing earlier. decades of silence.
        https://www.washingtonian.com/2016/02/14/the-sex-abuse-scandal-that-devastated-a-suburban-megachurch-sovereign-grace-ministries/

        in the case of Driscol, and i used to live down the street from that church in seattle. it appears driscol, the person in the power position, was the one firing people and making unilateral decisions including telling the parish to stop supporting people who crossed him. him losing his church would be the equivalence of myer’s accusers being called out and fired for bullying.

        i give up. this is a worthless conversation. i also didn’t mean to imply it was involving religious scandals. the 3 examples i used were all political in nature, involving the protection of a (so called “democratic”) state. anyway. i am sure there are examples in other communities, i just don’t know what they are, and it appears you don’t either.

      • Mooser
        September 11, 2017, 6:00 pm

        “It also happens to Jews over other issues. Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz attacked Manischewitz’s kashrut standards. The Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America launched a series of personal attacks against him which forced him to take medical leave from his duties due to the stress. They wanted to make it absolutely clear that the break from Manishewitz was not a matter of debate within the OU and that Horowitz was being deceptive not merely incorrect.”

        What’s good for Manischevitz is good for Judaism!

      • JeffB
        September 12, 2017, 8:10 am

        @Annie

        The obligation of Shivat Tzion is a religious doctrine. JVPrs are rejecting a religious doctrine. That doctrine does have political implications. The situation is very similar to abortion. And if you look at my list of links you’ll see excommunications over abortion.

      • Mooser
        September 12, 2017, 1:12 pm

        “Annie”, can’t you see how much fun it is to be Jewish? You spend half your time worrying about the world persecuting Jews to extinction, and the other half the time you worry about those who need to be expelled from Judaism, who are Judaism’s internal enemies.

  9. Mooser
    September 11, 2017, 5:51 pm

    “Enforcing community standards is normal behavior for a religion. Defending itself against external attackers is normal behavior for a religion.”

    And now you know why there are so many Reform and secular Jews.
    Gotta enforce community standards and repel the attackers! Mission accomplished!

  10. Lewis Elbinger
    September 11, 2017, 10:04 pm

    Thanks, Philip Weiss, for another excellent article. The distinction in the last paragraph about Liberal Zionists in Exodus is particularly useful. I am a spiritual being who incarnated into an American Jewish family so that I could have a voice in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. I am comfortable with JVP and, especially, Mondoweiss which I read “religiously.” All religions have been highjacked by power-mad idiots and it is up to those who love justice and humanity to take back that which has been highjacked. You’ve heard of “fake news”? I am more concerned with fake Jews.

  11. yishai
    September 12, 2017, 1:30 am

    This article is depressing and terrifying, even if this liberal progressive scholar (Myers) may have a partial victory in this instance, and I hope he does. The general discussion thread is also terrifying and depressing, as it shows that the mere discussion of anti-zionism elicits such repression that even a discussion at Mondoweiss is a pain in the ass fending off the zio-bots, despite the tireless efforts of Annie and Mooser and others. I come to MW because its one of the only cites where anti-zionism can be discussed and studied and named, where such a community might be brought into existence. I waited for it for decades. Being antizionist has been a lonely place for many decades, especially in the west, as shown by Edward Said throughout his whole career. It pains me that MW can’t even host a rational discussion of a basic article, without a disturbing “discussion” thread amplifying the point of the damn original essay,

    I am thankful that Phil quoted Oppenheimer in the question: what if Myers WAS antizionist, would he not also merit a job and a place in our community? Its terrifying that as of this moment, the answer is essentially no. Either be as liberal and vague as Myers or you are not likely to get defended by almost anyone other than MW and co., in this current climate. For some of us, this is not a matter of politics and expedience, but one of identity.

    Not to be an antizionist Jewish Israeli or Jewish American or Jewish Canadian, or some combo of the above, would be to not exist as oneself, to deny part of oneself. Self-abnegation, self-repression. Joking from earlier in teh thread aside, this might be an ACTUAL form of auto-anti-semitism, when one self-colonizes and policies one’s consciousness, and any exhibiting of it publicly, in order to stay employed, or take an easier, less assaulted, and/or more privileged path.

    • JeffB
      September 12, 2017, 9:14 am

      @yishai

      As one of the ziobots let me make this clear. The answer isn’t “essentially no”, it is openly no, it is directly no. There is no ambiguity here. There is no room in Islam for people who wish to continue to worship the traditional Arabic deities like al-‘Uzza along with Allah. There is no room in Buddhism for one who believes in spiritual annihilation at death. And there is no room in Judaism for people who work to destroy the Jewish people..

      One of the very good things about the “Liberal Zionists in Exile” (again good term Phil) like INN is they are creating a way to strongly object to some Israeli behaviors and the occupation within bounds that mainstream Jews can accept. That makes conversation possible. JVP is not coming from a place of love in its criticism neither is Mondoweiss. Obviously JVP has a community, but that community can never be part of the broader Jewish community. There are very few lines in Judaism, allying oneself with enemies of the Jews to pressure other Jews to do your bidding is one of the few. Edward Said was a great scholar, a terrific humanist, an interesting writer and a worthy member of the American Intelligentsia. None of that makes him any less of an enemy. In the same way Bin Laden was an inspiring thoughtful leader, not scared of complex self examination and deep strategy for a people who desperately need more thoughtfulness and self examination in their politicians. Acknowledging Bin Ladin’s quite personal positive traits doesn’t make him any less of an enemy to me as an American.

      I’m sorry that makes you feel lonely. Part of joining a community is compromise of the self. If you have been around for decades you should have learned that. Judaism is not a universalistic religion. Judaism engages in a complex relationship between the particular and universal in almost every aspect. I cannot legitimately engage in nerot if a woman is present. If fundamentally I can’t accept this sexism and illegitimately perform nerot I defame not enhance shabbas. Collectively the Jews make these rules, individually they don’t get to. That’s what community means. There are religions which are purely universalistic in their orientation, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”. Leftist universalism contradicts Judaism. Either you need to work hard to negotiate this conflict and integrate them or you just aren’t Jewish anymore.

      Eljay and RoHa can jump up and down all they want about how everything should be universalistic and I can only point out the contradictions in their treatment of other countries, that they are being inconsistent in their application. I can’t argue that they are wrong in their basic goal since their theology is what Christianity demands. You have a deeper problem in claiming to be a universalist.

      • Nathan
        September 12, 2017, 10:20 pm

        JeffB – Neither the JVP nor Mondoweiss is critical of Israel (you had stated that “JVP is not coming from a place of love in its CRITICISM neither is Mondoweiss”). One shouldn’t confuse criticism and hostility. Perhaps an example could help differentiate between the terms. If you tell someone that he needs an urgent shower with soap and hot water – that would be criticism. You are pointing out a problem, and you are offering a reasonable solution. If, however, you tell someone that he smells and therefore he should drop dead – that would be hostility. You are pointing out a problem, but your solution is not reasonable.

        JVP and Mondoweiss are not seeking to correct or to better Israel. There is no policy or action that would meet their approval. The state is illegitimate in their eyes, period – so, it can’t be fixed. So, they’re not criticizing Israel. They’re hostile to Israel; i.e. they wish her demise.

      • RoHa
        September 13, 2017, 12:55 am

        “Eljay and RoHa can jump up and down all they want about how everything should be universalistic and I can only point out the contradictions in their treatment of other countries, that they are being inconsistent in their application.”

        Our inconsistency (whatever it is) does not reduce the immorality of the founding and conduct of Israel.

        “I can’t argue that they are wrong in their basic goal since their theology is what Christianity demands.”

        This is a bit of a surprise. I am not a Christian.

      • JeffB
        September 13, 2017, 6:50 am

        @Nathan

        Good to see you back. I agree with the distinction you are making I don’t think we disagree except that I would go further. JVP and Mondoweiss often don’t merely engage in rhetoric towards Israel as an institution they are quite hostile in their rhetoric towards Israelis. SJP, JVP etc.. isn’t engaging in criticism anymore at all. The JVP, SJP… rhetoric is simply genocidal. To for example call 650k people, most of whom are children, illegitimate should be simply beyond the pale of political discourse. That is a call for genocide.

        OTOH I have to acknowledge that to a certain extent that’s not uncommon regarding leftist rhetoric period. There is a critique that Conservatives often make that they hate the sin and love the sinner, while leftists do the opposite. I remember before 9/11 the European left had been ferocious in its criticism of the USA for years. When 9/11 happened I had expected them to be rather quite thrilled at their good fortune that a genuine though small step towards “smashing the empire” had occurred. Oddly after calling for a war and revolt process that would take a century of conflict and likely kill off a good chunk of the humans on the planet … seeing just a small sample freaked them out. The loss of a few thousand was beyond their death tolerance. I had a very WTF moment reading the European left at the time, where they were still critical of the USA while thinking Al-Qaeda, whose goals were much more limited than their’s, had gone too far. Similarly recently with BLM you saw the same process where in some places (like Baltimore) the police did pull back in enforcement and the community was not happy and all the sudden BLM acknowledged the importance of policing after having said much the opposite for months. There is a certain unseriousness about the violent rhetoric on the left in general. There is more of a problem with Israel because there are individuals who are serious about the violent rhetoric of the left. I can’t really tell which individuals do in fact want a Khmer Rouge type solution (which IMHO is who the anti-zionists most sound like) or whether they merely want reasonable moderate reform which is what they mostly claim to want when you question the ethics of their solution. I haven’t figured out a way to get anti-zionists to listen to their own tone and hear how completely inappropriate it is. Even as they are getting banned as a hate group they don’t seem to understand that’s because they sound like a hate group.

        The change in tone is why I like INN and JStreet so much. They create a space where one can be morally outraged at some Israeli acts or policies while discussing them in a way that makes reversing or amending those acts possible. They sharpen the distinction between criticism of acts and hatred of people by loving the sinner while hating the sin. They provide a reasonable alternative with measured discourse. They provide a discourse which makes conversation about acts and policies possible. They don’t engage in them, which is still a failing. INN is unserious in that it is unclear they even really know what “ending the occupation” in a specific way would look like. I’d love to see someone for INN sit down and draw and INN map that stands somewhere between the Olmart maps and the Abbas maps and so they think through the “this is what we want”. But at the very least it is possible to imagine an older, larger, more mature INN doing this. I can’t imagine JVP doing this there rhetoric doesn’t allow for any solution.

      • eljay
        September 13, 2017, 7:38 am

        || Nathan: … Neither the JVP nor Mondoweiss is critical of Israel … ||

        Dunno about JVP, but MW offers plenty of valid and constructive criticism for Israel, including:
        – End the on-going and illegal occupation and colonization of not-Israel.
        – Respect international law and allow refugees to return to their homes and lands.
        – Reform the state from religion-supremacist to secular and democratic.

        Unfortunately, this valid and constructive criticism of Israel is viewed by Zionists as an attack on:
        – their unjust and immoral belief that people who choose hold the religion-based identity of Jewish are entitled to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine; and
        – their colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State” project.

        || … One shouldn’t confuse criticism and hostility. Perhaps an example could help differentiate between the terms. … ||

        You’re right: One shouldn’t confuse the terms. But Zionists do just that because they are supremacists.

        Perhaps an example could help differentiate between the terms: A man routinely beats his wife. His friends tell him to get counselling for his anger management issues, provide him with references and warn him that they’ll call the cops if he continues with the assaults. The wife-beater is infuriated by the “hostility” of his friends because his wife belongs to him and he’s entitled to do with her as he damned well pleases.

      • echinococcus
        September 13, 2017, 12:58 pm

        RoHa,

        This is a bit of a surprise. I am not a Christian.

        For the Zionists, the late Ottomans and the equally late Tsar, you are: religion is acquired by accident of birth. No amount of dissociating or abjuring will change that unless you formally join another official religious denomination. A most central principle of the Zionist construct. No call for surprise here.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 2:40 pm

        “JVP and Mondoweiss are not seeking to correct or to better Israel. There is no policy or action that would meet their approval. The state is illegitimate in their eyes, period – so, it can’t be fixed. So, they’re not criticizing Israel. They’re hostile to Israel; i.e. they wish her demise”

        “Nathan” go….read the “About” page.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 2:49 pm

        ” Oddly after calling for a war and revolt process that would take a century of conflict and likely kill off a good chunk of the humans on the planet … seeing just a small sample freaked them out. The loss of a few thousand was beyond their death tolerance

        That piddly “European Left” has no depth. Our Jewish “death tolerance” is at least 6 million, right “Jeff”?

      • Nathan
        September 13, 2017, 8:00 pm

        JeffB – Obviously, the JVP doesn’t have a solution to the conflict. They have grievances, but they will never state that the rectification of the grievances will mean that the conflict has been resolved. The same is true for the BDS or any other anti-Israel organization. An end of conflict is understood as accepting the legitimacy of Israel – and that is quite impossible in their ideology. Anti-Israel people can complain to you that the Palestinians are suffering – but if you suggest that ending the conflict would solve their plight, the idea of ending the conflict will nevertheless be rejected on the spot. The grievances are merely a tool for expressing hostility towards Israel – not an attempt at constructive criticism or solving the problems in discussion.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 9:40 pm

        Oh well, that’s the fun part about Israel. You never know which Israel you are going to get. One day, we get an Israel which is so powerful it can play the rawest kind of superpower politics and laugh at the consequences, the next day we get an Israel which can be destroyed by the negative vibes from its critics.

    • echinococcus
      September 12, 2017, 11:04 am

      Jeff,

      There is no room in Islam for people who wish to continue to worship the traditional Arabic deities like al-‘Uzza along with Allah. There is no room in Buddhism for one who believes in spiritual annihilation at death. And there is no room in Judaism for people who work to destroy the Jewish people..

      And that absurd parallelism you draw between “deity” and “the Jewish people” doesn’t disturb you, eh? Talk about deep, stinking, murderous tribal obscurantism. The tribe is the absolute divinity and anyone born outside it is just a negligible insect –that has of course been obvious to whoever has eyes to read. Thank you for being frank enough to acknowledge that.

      Judaism is not a universalistic religion

      Correct, and that is what makes it an enemy more than the other religions; more than the other monotheistic religions. The others are stultifying, too, but at least they acknowledge as humans those born outside of the tribe.

      Leftist universalism contradicts Judaism

      Correct again. You are the enemy. Perhaps reading you will wake up Eljay, who imagines that “religion-supremacism” is not racist.

      • JeffB
        September 12, 2017, 11:24 am

        @echinococcus

        And that absurd parallelism you draw between “deity” and “the Jewish people” doesn’t disturb you, eh?

        No first off there is no parallelism. People get excommunicated for all sorts of things.

        The lay board of St. Stanislaus Kostka Church got excommunicated for schism.
        The Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowship about 30k members a year mostly for stuff like drinking and smoking.

        That being said, Judaism

        The tribe is the absolute divinity and anyone born outside it is just a negligible insect –that has of course been obvious to whoever has eyes to read. Thank you for being frank enough to acknowledge that.

        I didn’t acknowledge anything of the sort. The tribe exists and in Jewish theology has its own covenant with God. All humanity, are beloved by God and form their own covenants with the creator. Those covenants will extend the Noahide principles but not contradict them. That’s what Judaism teaches. What it doesn’t teach though is all people share the same covenant unlike Christianity or Islam. It is more like the earlier and much more tolerant pagan faiths that believed that individual cities had city gods. Jews make no spiritual claim on gentiles but the converse is not true.

      • echinococcus
        September 12, 2017, 7:11 pm

        Jeff,

        Jews make no spiritual claim on gentiles…

        Who said “spiritual”? The only itsy-bitsy claim they make is that of denying any rights to Gentiles, at least that of staying alive if they ever happened to be on Jewish-coveted land. Then and now.

      • echinococcus
        September 12, 2017, 7:16 pm

        Jeff

        People get excommunicated for all sorts of things.

        We knew that yesterday, too. It is obviously not the point at all. The parallel you drew (on one side, insult-to-divinity arguments and on the other insult to the tribe) were called as obvious clues to your Zio mind.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 2:25 pm

        “People get excommunicated for all sorts of things.”

        Oh, gosh yes. Refusing to follow Jewish dietary laws, boom, right out you go. Refusal to join or support a Temple? You’re gone. Marrying a Gentile? You might as well leave now. Refusing to engage in Jewish ritual purity? Don’t let the door hit you where the dog bit you! Saturday races with the local SCCA? Your warranty is voided!

        Yes, sir, if there is one thing Judaism, through all its vicissitudes, has always insisted on, it is unity and discipline, or you are out! In fact, as many as 75% percent of us, or more, have already been excommunicated from Judaism. They are just keep us around for the Blue Boxes.

      • RoHa
        September 13, 2017, 9:21 pm

        “People get excommunicated for all sorts of things.”

        Benedict Spinoza was excommunicated for substance abuse.

    • Mooser
      September 13, 2017, 12:58 pm

      “I’m sorry that makes you feel lonely. Part of joining a community is compromise of the self. If you have been around for decades you should have learned that.” “Jeff B”

      Sure “Jeff B”! A Jewish person is not just some ego on the half-shell, he knows to let official Jewish spokesman and religious officials make the case, and doesn’t shoot his mouth off about stuff he knows nothing about, embarrassing the Jewish community and giving people the impression we are verbose liars. And every one of us thinks he is a goddam Chief Rabbi. ‘Nuff sed?

      • JeffB
        September 13, 2017, 1:54 pm

        @Mooser

        Don’t tell me on the one aspect of Judaism that I thought all American Jews could agree, that we all hate Israel’s chief Rabbi that even here you dissent?

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 4:23 pm

        “Don’t tell me on the one aspect of Judaism that I thought all American Jews could agree, that we all hate Israel’s chief Rabbi “

        You hate Israel’s Chief Rabbi? That’s no way to be “a people”. You need to submerge your own ego and do what is good for the group. And let our leaders speak for us. They are called “Cheif” Rabbis for a reason “Jeff B” and it’s about time you learned what it is instead of being an renegade.

        Wait, let me guess, your shmeggegie sect in LA is the one true Judaism?

  12. Nathan
    September 12, 2017, 10:01 pm

    Talkback – This is no need to prove or disprove a narrative. Many people on this site seem to believe that there is some point in proving that the Jews are converts (and not the Israelites of the Bible). Perhaps they believe that if the Jews are not from the ancient Middle East, then Israel can be dismantled or wished away. However, narratives are perceived memories of groups of people – and often these people will act in accordance to these memories. For the Jews, the exile is part of the collective awareness. The aspiration to return is built-in (“next year in Jerusalem”). One could “prove” that it’s all a fable, and it makes no difference whatsoever. Israel has come into existence, and it has happened already a long time ago.

    • JosephA
      September 12, 2017, 10:54 pm

      So I guess by your “logic”, might makes right?

      Yes, Israel has come into existence, but in a terrible, unsustainable manner. The existence of Israel in its present, racist form HARMS JEWS, not to mention the native Palestinian population.

      I certainly do not speak for the crew here, but I would imagine that the majority of the visitors to this site wish to see an Israel (or, shall I say, Palestine) with equality for all.

      Don’t give me your bullshit hasbara. If Israel didn’t discriminate against non-Jews (and, I might add, non-Orthodox-Jews) by enshrining that discrimination into the law since inception you might have a leg to stand on in terms of your logical fallacy-ridden arguments.

    • eljay
      September 13, 2017, 10:46 am

      || Nathan: … Many people on this site seem to believe that there is some point in proving that the Jews are converts (and not the Israelites of the Bible). … ||

      Many Zionists seem to believe that there is some point in proving that the religion-based identity of Jewish turns people into Ancient Israelites.

      What matters is that:
      – Jewish is a religion-based identity; and
      – the religion-based identity of Jewish does not comprise a right to a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine (or anywhere else).

      || … The aspiration to return is built-in (“next year in Jerusalem”). One could “prove” that it’s all a fable, and it makes no difference whatsoever. Israel has come into existence, and it has happened already a long time ago. ||

      The rapist’s long-held aspiration to kidnap the object of his obsessions, chain her in his basement and rape her is built-in (“next year in Geri Salem!”). One could “prove” that it’s all in his head, and it makes no difference whatsoever. The rape scenario has come into existence, and it has happened already many months ago.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 2:01 pm

        “What matters is that:
        – Jewish is a religion-based identity;”

        “eljay” you are very kind, and I appreciate it. But if we use the most objective standards, it’s actually not much more than a social identity.

      • Nathan
        September 13, 2017, 7:39 pm

        Eljay – You very often repeat the mantra that “Jewish is a religion-based identity”. I would suggest to you to drop by any good university library, and check out the history section. There you will find quite a few books entitled “The History of the Jewish People”. There will also be books entitled “The History of the Russian People” and “The History of the Icelandic People” – but notice that there are no books entitled “The History of the Catholic People”. Apparently, there are historians out there who insist that the Jews are a people.

        However, more importantly, it is worth pointing out to you that someone else’s identity is not in need of your approval or understanding. You can insist that the Jews are a religious community, but there are millions of Jews who see themselves as one of the peoples of this world. They have their own history, their own language/culture, their own aspirations and their own geographical point of reference on this planet (as in “next year in Jerusalem”). Identity is an abstract concept. An identity exists when there is a collective that shares that abstract thinking.

      • eljay
        September 13, 2017, 8:23 pm

        || Nathan: Eljay – You very often repeat the mantra that “Jewish is a religion-based identity”. … ||

        That’s because it is a religion-based identity, acquired by:
        – undergoing a religious conversion to Judaism; or
        – being descended from someone who underwent a religious conversion to Judaism.

        || … However, more importantly, it is worth pointing out to you that someone else’s identity is not in need of your approval or understanding. … ||

        I never said it was, so there’s no value in pointing it out to me. But if it makes you feel good about yourself, go ahead and point it out.

        || … You can insist that the Jews are a religious community … ||

        I don’t insist that “the Jews”* are a religious community.

        (*I’ve been told by Zionists that the collective term “the Jews” is anti-Semitic and yet they seem to have no qualm about using it. Why do Zionists insist on hating Jews so much?!)

        || … but there are millions of Jews who see themselves as one of the peoples of this world. … ||

        Good for them. But that doesn’t entitle them to a supremacist state or to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 8:25 pm

        Thanks for agreeing, “Nathan”. A social identity, changeable, mutable and fungible. Has, at one time or another, meant almost anything, and might mean anything in the future.*

        And is also not immune to all the demographic pressures social identities have.

        *BTW, when Jews were segregated in Europe, other groups, ostensible monotheists, were often thrown in with them, and were syncreted into Judaism along with parts of their beliefs and customs.

      • Mooser
        September 14, 2017, 6:21 pm

        ” … but there are millions of Jews who see themselves as one of the peoples of this world.”

        Okay, whatever. Call back when there about a hundred million or more.

    • echinococcus
      September 13, 2017, 1:04 pm

      The usual suspect:

      Israel has come into existence, and it has happened already a long time ago.

      A “long time” as the life of ants go. Comes into existence, next you know is put out of existence.

    • Mooser
      September 13, 2017, 2:42 pm

      “This is no need to prove or disprove a narrative. Many people on this site seem to believe that there is some point in proving that the Jews are converts (and not the Israelites of the Bible).”

      Naaaah, we just do it to jerk your chain, “Nathan”. Can’t you take a little ribbing? Get over yourself.

    • Talkback
      September 14, 2017, 12:42 pm

      Nathan: “One could “prove” that it’s all a fable, and it makes no difference whatsoever.”

      Again, it’s the other way around. There is no proof that it happened. Not even by a single Israeli historian. And if Jews need to tell themselves faibles to create some pseudo legitimacy for their Apartheid state its not longer my problem.

  13. Nathan
    September 13, 2017, 7:01 pm

    Mooser – It really would be simpler if you would have replied with a simple denial: “Mondoweiss is not about the demise of Israel. It’s about constructive criticism for her betterment…” But, obviously, the website is dedicated to presenting the illegitimacy of Israel, and you know it as well. However, since you referred me to the “About” page, I am happy to comment about it. There it is stated that Mondoweiss is “a critical resource for the movement for justice for Palestinians”. The key word is, of course, “justice”. When you gain just a little experience with the Palestinian national movement and with their western supporters, you learn that “justice” is a codeword for the undoing of Israel. In case it’s not so obvious to you, I’ll bring to your attention that the “injustice” is the very creation of Israel (and the Partition Plan, and the immigration of “European foreigners” to Palestine, and the Balfour Declaration) – and, therefore, “justice” is understood as the undoing of the “injustice”. What seems to be “criticism” of Israel throughout the website is in reality a tool for convincing the public of Israel’s illegitimacy.

    • Mooser
      September 13, 2017, 8:19 pm

      “Mooser – It really would be simpler if you would have replied with a simple denial”

      Look, I linked it for you. If you can’t read, that’s your problem.

      So there it is, “Nathan”, and you can decide for yourself whether your comments will do more to expose Mondo as a journalistic fraud, than the “hits” and “UPVs” you add to its stats do to raise its value.

    • Mooser
      September 13, 2017, 8:45 pm

      When you gain just a little experience with the Palestinian national movement and with their western supporters, you learn that “justice” is a codeword for the undoing of Israel” “Nathan”

      Yes, I can see your point. Justice would destroy Israel in a hurry. Of course, there’s no reason why 180 million Jews couldn’t maintain a regime of injustice in the ME for as long as they like.

      (Yup, yup, yup, when they are an embarrassment, a mortification, to Zionist sites, they come here.)

      • Mooser
        September 13, 2017, 8:52 pm

        .” In case it’s not so obvious to you, I’ll bring to your attention that the “injustice” is the very creation of Israel (and the Partition Plan, and the immigration of “European foreigners” to Palestine, and the Balfour Declaration) – and, therefore, “justice” is understood as the undoing of the “injustice”. “ “Nathan”

        Why, thank you. Guess I never thought about it that way before. I will most certainly hew to your interpretation of events. Sounds like you’ve got it just about right.

    • RoHa
      September 13, 2017, 9:16 pm

      “It really would be simpler if you would have replied with a simple denial:”

      It really would be simpler if you HAD replied with a simple denial.

      Don’t put “would have” in the “if” clause. It is a simple rule to remember.

      • Mooser
        September 14, 2017, 6:13 pm

        “Don’t put “would have” in the “if” clause. It is a simple rule to remember.”

        “RoHa”, as soon as I saw the redundant “would” in the first lines, I knew there was no point reading further.

    • Talkback
      September 14, 2017, 12:32 pm

      Nathan: “I’ll bring to your attention that the “injustice” is the very creation of Israel (and the Partition Plan, and the immigration of “European foreigners” to Palestine, and the Balfour Declaration) – and, therefore, “justice” is understood as the undoing of the “injustice”. What seems to be “criticism” of Israel throughout the website is in reality a tool for convincing the public of Israel’s illegitimacy.”

      You are confusing two questions. The first one is if the Zionist Apartheid Junta in Palestine is legitimate.You mentioned a few key points why its establishment and the injustices that led to it wasn’t. The second one is if its actions are legitimate. “Criticism of Israel” deals with the second question not with the first one.

      Only in the case if it commits inhumane actions to maintain a regime in which one ‘ethnic’ group dominates another than it deals with the first question. For example by preventing Palestininians to return. Because that amounts to the Crime of Apartheid as definied in international law.

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