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The ‘Jewish nation’ is the central myth of Zionism. It needs to be dismantled.

Middle East
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Today, April 18th, is the eve of Israel’s 70th Independence Day. Some are probably wondering how that may be possible, if Israel declared its independence on the evening of May the 14th. The answer is, that Israel celebrates the event as if it was a Jewish holiday, according to the moon calendar, which most often does not coincide with the Latin, sun-based calendar.

This is only one aspect in how Israel seeks to apply itself as a “Jewish State”. But I am going to speak about an even more essential ideological aspect that sits at the heart of Zionism. It is not the notion of the Jewish state as such, but the notion of the Jewish nation.

First, let’s jump back 100 years and look once again at the words of the British (and notably Jewish) Secretary of State for India Edwin Montagu, in his critique of His Majesty’s Government’s intentions to endorse a ‘Jewish national home” in Palestine in 1917:

“I assert that there is not a Jewish nation. The members of my family, for instance, who have been in this country for generations, have no sort or kind of community of view or of desire with any Jewish family in any other country beyond the fact that they profess to a greater or less degree the same religion. It is no more true to say that a Jewish Englishman and a Jewish Moor are of the same nation than it is to say that a Christian Englishman and a Christian Frenchman are of the same nation: of the same race, perhaps, traced back through the centuries – through centuries of the history of a peculiarly adaptable race”.

But Montagu’s logic did not win the day. Zionism did. And nowadays, many Jews around the world are relating to Israel’s Independence Day as if it was a religious holiday. Last Friday I had a conversation in Copenhagen with a man I hardly knew, we both merely knew we were Jewish:

“Will you be celebrating Yom Haatzmaut [Israeli Independence Day]?”, he asked.

“You betcha I won’t!” I answered.

The man responded with a predictable expression of bewilderment.

“I’d rather be commemorating the Nakba”, I said.

“Nakba? What’s that?” He wondered.

“It’s Arabic for ‘catastrophe'”, I explained, “when the vast majority of Palestinians was expelled”.

“Oh”, he said.

After a short pause, he went:

“But I love holidays like for example Pesach [Passover]”, he said.

“Alright, but that’s a religious holiday. Independence Day is not a religious holiday, unless you consider nationalism to be religious”, I said.

That was that conversation. Yesterday I was invited by another Jew to celebrate Israeli Independence Day – at the Copenhagen synagogue (as the very issue of Independence Day as a Jewish holiday was discussed):

“If you really are in any doubt about it being a Jewish holiday you can go to the Synagogue in Copenhagen tomorrow night as well as most other synagogues where there are special services and there are prayers on Thursday that you only say on Holidays (Hallel) and of course it is a day off and therefore a holiday in the Jewish state”, he wrote.

So you see, this notion of an extra-territorial, Jewish ‘nation’ has been subscribed to by very many Jews around the world – and makes the Israel case a mixture of religion and nationalism – but not nationalism in the sense that we normally attribute to the term.

The Jewish ‘nationalism’, as embodied by the State of Israel, literally means that there are no Israeli nationals, and that there cannot be. It may sound surreal (and should) to those who are not yet familiar with this bizarre concept – but even more bluntly put, Israelis don’t exist in the national sense – only as citizens. “Jewish” is defined as a “nationality” (alongside some 130 other recognized ‘nationalities’), and the purpose of this construct is simple: Since Israel defines itself as The Jewish State, and wishes to cement that concept fully as the Nation State of the Jewish People, the only ones who actually enjoy national rights, as opposed to merely citizenship rights, are the Jews. And yes when I say ‘the Jews’, I’m not accidentally generalizing – this is a generalization that Israel itself makes, an extra-territorial generalization, which entails that any Jew from anywhere can ‘return’, ‘ascend’ and receive automatic citizenship and a subsidy welcome package from the Jewish State. This even includes people who are not Jewish by Israeli orthodox law, merely by third generation paternal affiliation.

These are fantastic terms for Jews all over the world – I mean, why wouldn’t you want such an ‘insurance policy’?

It is this ‘insurance policy’ that makes it possible for Prime Minister Netanyahu to call on Jews to immigrate to Israel in the wake of terror, like he did in the wake of the Paris 2015 attacks:

“To all the Jews of France, all the Jews of Europe, Israel is not just the place in whose direction you pray, the state of Israel is your home”, he tweeted.

Some Jews were concerned about what such proclamations and ‘insurance policies’ can mean. The Director of the European Jewish Association, Rabbi Menachem Margolin, said at the time:

“Israel must cease this Pavlovian reaction every time Jews in Europe are attacked. Every such Israeli campaign severely weakens and damages the Jewish communities that have the right to live securely wherever they are.”

This is essentially the point that the mentioned Edwin Montagu was also making, back in 1917:

“When the Jews are told that Palestine is their national home, every country will immediately desire to get rid of its Jewish citizens, and you will find a population in Palestine driving out its present inhabitants”.

How insightful. Montagu elucidates not only the Judeo-centric concern – but the Palestinian one. And with all the Jewish concerns, it is the Palestinians who have had to pay most dearly for this Jewish ‘insurance policy’. The “Jewish nation” has for them meant dispossession, and it is a continuing matter. Jews around the world insist on their “birthright” to Israel, while those who were actually born there and have ancestry from time immemorial, are dispossessed. And when some Jews protest this, they even get the finger (see above how ‘Birthright’ founder Michael Steinhart reacted to Jewish protesters calling for boycott of the free trip to Israel for young Jews). But giving the finger to Jews is the least of it. That finger has been given to Palestinians all the way through, that’s what it’s all about. The Jewish ‘nation’ idea is about them being dispossessed and stripped of any national affiliation with their homeland, for Jews to ‘return’.

That’s what Israel’s ‘independence’ is about. It means ‘we don’t need Palestinians’. Because we already have a ‘nation’ – the Jewish one.

This is the central myth that needs to be dismantled – that of the ‘Jewish nation’. It is the absolute core of Zionism. Everything that Israel does stems from this notion, of the “Jewish nation”.

For Judaism to actually survive this horror and become a mere religion or societal tradition within modern constructs of ‘nations’, the myth of the ‘Jewish nation’ must be deconstructed. The archaic concept of a religious-conditioned ‘nation’ must give way to the modern, enlightened version, wherein the term basically defines those who happen live in a given territory in a given time, providing them with justice, freedom and equality. Dispossessing the vast majority of those under the pretext that there’s a ‘nation’ waiting to take their place cannot be the solution.

About Jonathan Ofir

Israeli musician, conductor and blogger / writer based in Denmark.

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203 Responses

  1. CitizenC
    April 18, 2018, 1:28 pm

    Perfectly correct, as far as it goes. The notion of “the Jewish people” must be recognized as a form of racism, as many commentators have argued, such as Rabbi Elmer Berger, who upheld classical Reform anti-Zionism. The radical labor activist turned historiain Noel Ignatiev called Zionism Jewish race doctrine, which explains its affinity for and collaboration with racialist anti-Semitism from the late 19th c down to Nazism, and with Christian evangelicals and the alt-right today.

    Classical Reform Judaism was one of the anti-Zionist traditions based on the classical liberalism of the Enlightenment and Jewish emancipation. The Marxist internationalism in which Jewish people were prominent rejected Zionism as colonialism and imperialism. Isaac Deutscher and Maxime Rodinson upheld those standards after 1967. Israel Shahak, the great Israeli critic of Zionism and Orthodox Judaism, cited the “modern secular (non-)Jewish tradition” which he dated from Spinoza, the greatest of the 17th c rationalist philosophers.

    Since 1967, the aggrandizement of “the Jewish people” has replaced liberalism as the Jewish social principle, in the state of Israel, in the organized Jewish communities abroad, and also on the left. The latter, from Noam Chomsky on down, have abandoned internationalism and secularism for the minimal critique of Israel’s “occupation” of the territories conquered in 1967, etc.

    The concept of “the Jewish nation” must be ended not only Israel, but in the “Jewish politics” of the “diaspora”. On the left, Jewish intellectuals led by Chomsky and groups like Jewish Voice for Peace have ruthlessly enforced limits on Palestine politics for 50 years. The assassination of Alison Weir by all means except physical is only one example. Chomsky, JVP, et al continue adamantly to deny the decisive influence of the Israel Lobby.

    Ofir seems to refer only to Israel. “The archaic concept of a religious-conditioned ‘nation’ must give way to the modern, enlightened version, wherein the term basically defines those who happen live in a given territory in a given time, providing them with justice, freedom and equality. Dispossessing the vast majority of those under the pretext that there’s a ‘nation’ waiting to take their place cannot be the solution.” Quite correct, and Boas Evron said as much in “Jewish State or Israeli Nation”, arguing for secular Israeli Hebrew nationality open to all.

    Like most Israeli expatriate critics, Ofir is admirably unstinting in his analysis of conditions in Israel. He can not or refuses to understand “Jewish politics” outside Israel. He absurdly compared Israel’s banning JVP over its BDS position (reluctantly and tardily adopted), with Spinoza’s excommunication by his Amsterdam synagogue.

    But the “Jewish nation” must be dismantled in the “diaspora” also. In the mainstream it commissions genocide and the clash of civilizations. On the left it denies the radicalization of US foreign policy by Zionism, from the establishment of Israel in the 1940s, to the anti-Iran/Russia/Syria/Hizbollah animus which threatens cataclysm today.

    Left Zionism substitutes militant anti-anti-Semitism for an analysis of Jewish racism and its influence, ignores Zionism’s mortal danger to all of us, and precludes understanding and activism which would address it.

    • Michael Rabb
      April 20, 2018, 2:05 pm

      And yes it’s a Jewish (religious) holiday, it’s the Jew state, and Jew nation, and the ‘Independence’ holiday is celebrated in synagogues everywhere by the Jews as a Jewish (religious-zionist) holiday! Don’t look now but I think the Jews just conflated Judaism and Zionism .

    • Emory Riddle
      April 23, 2018, 7:29 am

      “Israel must cease this Pavlovian reaction every time Jews in Europe are attacked.”

      For Chrissakes. Jews are far safer than any other ethno-religious group in the West.

  2. Yonah Fredman
    April 18, 2018, 3:09 pm

    The vast majority of 2018’s Jews can trace their 1881 ancestors to one of two populations: Yiddish speaking Europe or Arabic speaking Jews of MENA (Middle East and North Africa). Closer to our day two events disturbed this neat formulation: Hitler’s event and the mass emigration of Arabic speaking Jews out of the various countries of MENA. Today most Jews live in North America or Israel (with a much smaller number living in Europe and Argentina).

    But to return for a moment to 1881, most definitions of peoplehood or nationhood would not bridge the two 1881 communities.

    Nonetheless, the religion itself, would not inspect the word “am” to see if it matches any textbook definitions. But nonetheless the religion refers to an “am Yisroel” and prays for an ingathering of the dispersed and states “All Israel are responsible each to the other.”

    Most Jews in the Diaspora no longer share the Yiddish language and have not acquired Hebrew. Their attachment to Jewish practices: specifically Sabbath and kosher are tenuous to nonexistent. The stigma attached to intermarriage is eroded and eroding.

    I once saw a video of Yeshayahu Leibowitz arguing with a young national religious Israeli female raising the question of whether a nation stops being a nation when it loses certain traits of commonality. (I think he was referring to language.) His question was delivered without an answer. He did not assert it as a statement, but proposed it as a question.

    When atheist Jews assert the non-nationhood of the Jews, they are usually stating- we have nothing that connects us to other Jews. They assert the disappearance of the religious connection (as a result of their beliefs) and deny the existence of any other connection. They do not propose the rejection of the nationalist bond in order to return to some other bond, they are asserting: “Don’t think you have anything in common with other Jews. You don’t.”

    • Mooser
      April 18, 2018, 3:50 pm

      “yonah”, the “Jewish nation” exists in exact proportion to the extent that non-Jews insist that the Jews are a separate nation, and wish to enforce it.

      They seem to be falling down on the job lately. Go talk to them about making the Jews a nation.

      • Citizen
        April 18, 2018, 8:16 pm

        Mooser, are you saying the term “World Jewry” is a goy invention?

    • CitizenC
      April 18, 2018, 3:56 pm

      The anti-Zionist Orthodox position does reject the idea of nationality. Yaakov Shapiro, a congregational rabbi and Judaic scholar in New York, is writing a 3-vol update of Orthodox anti-Zionism. He adamantly rejects the notion of “Jewish peoplehood” in any civic, rather than religious sense, among other similarities with the classical liberal position. See this on Youtube

      • Mooser
        April 18, 2018, 5:43 pm

        “Israel has nothing to do with me, as a Jew!”

        Keep dreaming, Rabbi.

    • YoniFalic
      April 21, 2018, 8:04 pm

      From a seminar I gave a few years ago on Jewish identity in E. Europe and the former Czarist Empire.

      In the 19th century among Jews from Alsace to the Ukraine, we see 4 competing “Jewish” identities, which are the following:

      * the traditional religious communal identity,

      * the Yiddish ethnic cultural identity, which targeted cultural autonomy in historic Poland,

      * the class identity, which was developed by Jewish radicals and Bolsheviks, and

      * the Zionist ethnonational identity, which is used to justify theft of Palestine and the genocide of the native population.

      When Yiddishists and Bundists claimed that Yiddish-speakers constituted an ethnic group within Poland and said of non-Yiddish-speakers that זיי זענען נישט אידן ווי אונדז (they are not Jews like us — a comment made by eminent Yiddish historian Israel Abrahams), they were saying something obvious.

      1. When Jewish Bolsheviks created a Jewish (еврейский actually Hebraic) nationality (not nation) within the Soviet Union for people descended from Yiddish-speakers but not for Jews of other ethnic groups (Tatars, Georgians, Persians, etc.),

      2. when Birobidzhan was only meant for Yiddish-speakers, and

      3. when the Евсекция focused only on Yiddish-speakers,

      such decisions had some logic.

      [In the Czarist Empire Yiddish Jews had been associated mostly with a specific financial commercial niche, and most Yiddish Jews quite swiftly renounced language and religion — much faster than — for example — ethnic Poles. Yiddish Jews and Russianized former Yiddish-speaking Jews continued to collaborate in their financial-commercial niche across the language divide.]

      When Zionists fabricated a pan-Judaic ethnonationality (even though Yiddish-speakers and Kypczak speaking Polish Jewish Tatars hated one another†) in order to claim Palestine from the native people, they duplicated the German National Socialist concept of the Aryan race even if the racist genocidal Zionist (Jewish National Socialist) idea preceded the racist genocidal German National Socialist idea.††

      Yet Zionist writings are very clear that the white racist genocidal Eastern Europeans considered members of non-European Jewish ethnic groups to be racially inferior and not racially desirable immigrants for the campaign to steal Palestine and to destroy or to drive out the native Palestinians.†††

      It is time to bury the Zionist (Jewish National Socialist) idea of ethnic or secular Jew and to treat as utterly contemptible any progressive supporting this stupid idea.

      The correspondence between Zionist (Jewish National Socialist) ideas and German National Socialist ideas is obvious to anyone with half a brain, and genuine progressives opposed to Zionism and the continued existence of the racist genocidal State of Israel have to start hammering this point in order to delegitimize both Israel and also anyone that continues to support this disgusting state.

      As for the connecting Israel and Zionism to US white racist ideology, it should be clear at this point that the State of Israel has become an intrinsic component of US white racist ideology.

      Most American Jews today espouse the Zionist ethnonational identity because Israel put a lot of effort into infiltrating and eventually dominating Jewish education in the United States.

      Notes

      † I just reread סיפור פשוט, in which out of nowhere Agnon defames Polish Jewish Tatars.

      †† Haaretz recently covered Nordau’s racist belief linking progress and genocide.

      The author seems to be unaware of the friendly correspondence between Nordau and Thomas Dixon, author of The Klansman, the book on which the movie Birth of a Nation is based.

      ††† My parents certainly viewed my nominally Jewish and Muslim Algerian ex-girlfriends to be our racial inferiors. It’s a common belief among Israeli E. European “Jewish” invaders.

      BTW, E. European “Jews” and German National Socialists had similar negative views toward Slavs. I can produce quotes in which a nominally Jewish historian describes Yiddish speakers as the cultural wall of civilization against against Slavic un-culture or barbarism.

      Columbia has excellent Jewish studies scholars. I don’t understand why Edward Said never availed himself of Columbia’s Jewish studies resources when he was a professor at Columbia. He could have made his critique of Zionism and Orientalism much stronger if he had broadened his knowledge.

      • CitizenC
        April 22, 2018, 8:25 pm

        I believe you left out another “identity”, to be secular, a Frenchman or a German … of “the Mosaic persuasion” for the religious. Not traditionally Jewish, modern bourgeois liberal

        Said never developed a Jewish critique because the Jewish left led by Chomsky, had none. Chomsky was and remains a Zionist, defends Zionist separatism, defends the kibbutz as “anarchism”, claims that binationalism was possible, heading a long roster of Jewish identitarians and programs on the left

      • YoniFalic
        April 23, 2018, 4:13 pm

        The seminar focused on E Europe, where the idea of being a Pole, Hungarian, or Russian of Mosaic persuasion or faith did not make sense. Ashkenazi applies from Alsace to Ukraine. Posquières, Trèves, Troyes, or Provence in general are barely Ashkenazi areas. In these areas Jews spoke a dialect of French even if they were within the Ashkenazi orbit halakhically.

        The Marxists would argue that German and French Ashkenazim of Mosaic faith proved the economic class identity because these Jews were trying to find a way to maintain their business networks of interest. In many ways, the Marxist analysis makes the most sense.

      • CitizenC
        April 24, 2018, 10:05 am

        In strictly east European terms you may be correct about the choices, but “from Alsace to Ukraine”, which is west of the Rhine eastward. I think there were more than a few German and Austrian Jews who were assimilated, for whom the ideal of bourgeois secularism or strictly religious minority, without associations of Yiddishkeit, did apply. Some of them were in business, many in the professions or the arts. The socialists and revolutionaries among them made a secular choice.

        I believe you are quite right in comparing Zionism’s pan-Jewishness to pan-German or pan-Aryanism. This is exactly the critique that leftists of Jewish background should have developed after 1967, to name only that epoch. Noel Ignatiev, who became a historian after many years as a radical labor activist, did call Zionism “Jewish race doctrine”, an idea derived from his experience of race analysis and politics in the labor movement. He wrote a book “How the Irish Became White”, based on his dissertation. He did not have the background to develop the idea for European Zionism.

        Edward Said, for all his formidable powers, and the same holds for his cohort of Arab American intellectuals and their successors, never questioned “Jewish identity”, because the Jewish left cut him off, refused to address it, because of their own identitarian commitments, a condition that largely holds still.

        Elmer Berger as you probably know, led a rear-guard action against Zionism in the 1940s, and after 1948, went into permanent opposition. Berger was a classical Reform anti-Zionist who stayed true to his principles. After 1967 he renewed that commitment and entered a new phase of activism. He co-drafted the 1975 UN resolution on Zionism as a form of racism. He was well known and lionized in the Arab world. On a visit to Lebanon and elsewhere in 1955 he was very warmly received. The Institute for Palestine Studies published some of his books.

        I am unable to find any evidence that the Arab -American left from Edward Said on down, had anything to do with Berger or his anti-Zionist critique. The same holds for Maxime Rodinson, who remained steadfast to his internationalist ideals to his passing in 2004.

  3. Maghlawatan
    April 18, 2018, 3:18 pm

    The central myth of Zionism is that there is no such thing as a Palestinian. There may or may be a Jewish nation but it is nothing to do with the Palestinians. The Jewish nation schtick is only acceptable between consenting adults.

  4. Steve Grover
    April 18, 2018, 3:57 pm

    Great Photo of Michael Steinhardt flipping the bird at the BDSHOLE creeps! I echo his sentiments.

    • JohnSmith
      April 18, 2018, 5:13 pm

      You admire a photo showing an elderly man shaming himself at age 77 by acting with a boorishness that would be gauche and immature in anyone, of any age? “Woo-hoo, he’s a lout and louts are where it’s at! Down with you libtard democrits and yer beliefs in universal values, you BDSHOLES!! Yeah, you heard me, you BDSHOLE creeps!!” Why don’t you grow up and try to pursue something other than racism as one of your most cherished personal values?

      • echinococcus
        April 18, 2018, 6:42 pm

        Instead of attacking a perfectly normal gesture that anyone could make at any age, why not attack the criminal Zionist ruin on the grounds of his racist and genocidal support to the Zionist abomination?

        Attacking a middle finger because you don’t find it “appropriate” encroaches on the free speech right of everyone, let alone us old farts. The finger sign is not restricted to Zionist criminals and we’ll give the finger to anyone we want.

      • Mooser
        April 18, 2018, 9:31 pm

        “Attacking a middle finger because you don’t find it “appropriate” encroaches on the free speech right of everyone…”

        Next you’l be defending the right to light fart-fires in a crowded theatre.

      • echinococcus
        April 18, 2018, 11:48 pm

        Mooser,

        You can do better than pretending to be confused about the difference between a finger pointing up in the air and a methane fire in a closed environment.

    • Misterioso
      April 19, 2018, 10:45 am

      @Steve Grover

      In reality, like you, Michael Steinhardt is running scared. Zionism’s disgusting and murderous party is coming to an end.

      • druid
        April 19, 2018, 11:58 am

        Hopefully soon!

  5. JLewisDickerson
    April 18, 2018, 4:27 pm

    RE: “For Judaism to actually survive this horror and become a mere religion or societal tradition within modern constructs of ‘nations’, the myth of the ‘Jewish nation’ must be deconstructed.” ~ Ofir

    SEE: Another Theocracy in the Heart of the Muslim World | by Uri Avnery | Antiwar.com | June 20, 2011

    (EXCERPTS) I am fed up with all this nonsense about recognizing Israel as the “Jewish state.” . . .

    . . . The most widely used is just “Jewish state.” But that is not enough for Netanyahu and Co., who speak about “the nation-state of the Jewish people,” which has a nice 19th-century ring. The “state of the Jewish people” is also quite popular.

    The one thing that all these brand -names have in common is that they are perfectly imprecise. What does “Jewish” mean? A nationality, a religion, a tribe? Who are the “Jewish people”? Or, even more vague, the “Jewish nation”? Does this include the congressmen who enact the laws of the United States? Or the cohorts of Jews who are in charge of U.S. Middle East policy? Which country does the Jewish ambassador of the UK in Tel Aviv represent? . . .

    . . . Herzl himself did not dream of a state that belongs to all the Jews in the world. Quite the contrary—his vision was that all real Jews would go to the Judenstaat (whether in Argentina or Palestine, he had not yet decided). They—and only they—would thenceforth remain “Jews.” All the others would become assimilated in their host nations and cease altogether to be Jews.

    Far, far indeed from the notion of a “nation-state of the Jewish people” as envisioned by many of today’s Zionists, including those millions who do not dream of immigrating to Israel. . .

    . . . We have an ongoing battle about this in Israel. Some of us want Israel to be an Israeli state, belonging to the Israeli people, indeed a “state of all its citizens.” Some want to impose on us the religious law supposedly fixed by God for all times on Mount Sinai some 3,200 years ago and abolish all contrary laws of the democratically elected Knesset. Many don’t want any change at all. . .

    ENTIRE COMMENTARY – http://original.antiwar.com/avnery/2011/06/19/another-theocratic-state-in-the-heart-of-the-muslim-world/

    • JLewisDickerson
      April 21, 2018, 12:09 am

      P.S. ALSO SEE:
      Israel at Seventy: Is the Right Winning the Culture War?
      By Bernard Avishai | newyorker.com | April 18, 2018

      (EXCERPT) Nitzan Waisberg, a lecturer on design thinking at the Tel Aviv University business school, was born in Israel forty-four years ago, the daughter of a psychologist and a yoga instructor. She attended Jerusalem’s Bezalel School of Arts and Design and the Royal College of Art, in London; lived in Los Angeles, London, and Sydney; and consulted for companies like Procter & Gamble and Gallup. In 2012, she returned to Israel, leaving a teaching appointment at Stanford University. She was determined to bring “Bay Area optimism and Silicon Valley problem-solving,” she told me, to what she knew was a changing public life in Israel. (Her uncle is Ehud Barak, the former Prime Minister.) She has four children—three of whom attend mamlachti, or secular, public schools in Tel Aviv—and she was naturally preoccupied with helping them adjust to their new life. “But I found I was living in an emotional bunker,” she said. “I came back to a country my grandparents founded, to raise my children. I didn’t recognize the place.”

      Two years ago, Waisberg’s preschooler came home just before Rosh Hashanah, talking about a “big man” who had visited her class and talked about “dead animals.” A few days later, the teacher sent home a picture of an Orthodox rabbi blowing the shofar in class. “This was right at the beginning of the school year, just as my daughter was learning to trust her space, with no sense of who was in authority,” Waisberg said. “God knows what this guy said about Temple sacrifices.” Her second grader’s classes, meanwhile, were regularly interrupted to prepare for an extracurricular ceremony in which each child received a text of the Torah, girls got chocolate coins, and boys got yarmulkes. “They gave the children a paper with the word ‘Torah’ smeared with honey and invited them to lick it,” to indicate Torah study as sweet. She said that she doesn’t mind teaching children about traditions, but this was a custom from cheder—the Eastern European rabbinic schoolhouse from the Middle Ages—and, she said, “It was not presented as a history lesson.”

      Waisberg’s older children had subtler experiences. “A fourth-grade class had an online lesson, ostensibly about biological categorization, but also dividing animals into shratzim and non-shratzim, kosher and non-kosher creepy-crawly things,” she said. “Introductory chemistry classes taught that molecules will bond, or not, the way grooms bond with brides, but not with other men.” Math classes taught Gematria, in which numerical values are assigned to the letters in Hebrew words and calculated to imply mystical coincidences with significant dates, such as Jewish holidays. “This is kind of cute if you do it once, like astrology,” Waisberg said. “But when you repeat Gematria every year, you have to wonder why.” Historical timelines advanced “identity with the land,” starting with the creation, then the flood, then exodus—eventually getting to the Holocaust. But “no kibbutzim, no Haskalah”—the Jewish enlightenment of the nineteenth century, out of which Zionism emerged—were mentioned. The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin was taught not as the act of a national-Orthodox fanatic but as just another sad example of “Jews fighting with each other over disagreements about God’s will.” . . .

      CONTINUED AT – https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/israel-at-seventy-is-the-right-winning-the-culture-war

  6. echinococcus
    April 18, 2018, 5:50 pm

    Ofir,

    So you see, this notion of an extra-territorial, Jewish ‘nation’ has been subscribed to by very many Jews around the world

    Exactly. And that’s one of the absolutely basic things about the Zionist abomination.

    This “has been subscribed” by a lot of “non”-Zionists, too, and some anti-Zionists, who continue to call themselves “Jewish” while not practicing a religion. One has enormous difficulties accepting these as sincere in their opposition to Zionism as long as they don’t subscribe in full to what Montagu so well said.
    If nothing, it means at the very least that they feel kinship with the Zionist criminals.

    • Stephen Shenfield
      April 18, 2018, 7:08 pm

      Even though I am against Zionism and now also against religion, my Jewish family background and early Judaic upbringing are bound to create some feeling of kinship with others who share that background and upbringing. In large part it is a matter of kinship in the literal sense. For example, the Israeli consul in Boston is (or was) a woman named Shein. That happens to be my late mother’s maiden name. When I met her naturally I wondered whether she might be a distant relative. This feeling of kinship should not lead to any political solidarity or be conceptualized in ‘national’ terms. The Zionists are indeed criminals and we should regard them as enemies. To feel kinship with them at some level is therefore uncomfortable and distressing. Nevertheless it is there. Sorry, it can’t be helped.

      • Citizen
        April 18, 2018, 8:22 pm

        Is what you describe only for the Jewish ethnic group? Does it apply elsewhere?

      • echinococcus
        April 18, 2018, 9:05 pm

        You aren’t really thinking, Shenfield.
        First: sure it can be helped. All one has to do is to reject the very idea that a religious “identity” limited to the religiously observant means anything at all to you if you have no religion. Your kin becomes the collective of human beings –with subdivisions on a geographic or cultural basis.
        Second: see above –the cultural or somesuch groupings you are talking about are (if I assume Shein is the correct example) Ashkenazi or perhaps German (not the same thing at all.) NOT in any way or wise “Jewish”, the very use of which defines one as assuming there is anything like a superordinate ethnos.

        As for the protestations like ” This feeling of kinship should not lead to any political solidarity or be conceptualized in ‘national’ terms”, of course by definition they indicate some solidarity with the enemy and have a “national” core at some level, because otherwise you wouldn’t ever have used the term “Jewish” instead of “Ashkenazi” or “German” because “Jewish” implies that you see that as some unprovable, nationalist kinship with Ethiopians, Bukharis, Spaniards and so on.

      • Stephen Shenfield
        April 19, 2018, 2:14 pm

        In reply to echinococcus, I am not talking about ‘a religious identity limited to the religiously observant’ — I am talking about a vague sort of cultural tie (not sure if cultural is the right word, but I can’t think of a better one) with those having a similar religious background and upbringing. Citizen’s question is a good one and my answer is that it does apply elsewhere. For example, ‘lapsed Catholics’ who are no longer believers have a similar rapport with one another based in shared experience. As for whether the link is pan-Jewish or specifically Ashkenazi, that depends on whether one is focusing on the religious component of the shared experience or other components. Of course, like many others in this position, I aspire to a broad human identity (or perhaps to an even broader identity — one that encompasses other intelligent species on earth and elsewhere) but the old narrower identities are not thrown off so easily. “All one has to do is reject” some idea — no, these things go deeper than ideas.

      • echinococcus
        April 19, 2018, 5:32 pm

        Shenfield,

        I defy you to indicate one single element common to all the different streams and varieties of “Jewish” that is not strictly religious/liturgical.
        In the absence of that, ” a vague sort of cultural tie (not sure if cultural is the right word, but I can’t think of a better one) with those having a similar religious background and upbringing” is not only vague, it doesn’t make sense. One is believing and practicing a given religion or one is not. Don’t make it sound like being vaguely, a little bit pregnant. We get it, your identity markers stand up when you hear an Ashkenazi name but that’s a definitely Ashkenazi name. Not Ethiopian. As for the upbringing, what is there in common in the upbringing –except, again, for religious Sunday-school stuff, and that in only for the religious.

        Also, if anything goes “deeper than ideas” chances are it’s some illogical, emotional thing that invariably works against rational behavior.

      • Keith
        April 19, 2018, 8:01 pm

        STEPHEN SHENFIELD- “… my Jewish family background and early Judaic upbringing are bound to create some feeling of kinship with others who share that background and upbringing.”

        Interesting comment. Undoubtedly fond memories of a certain background will induce a weak form of kinship. I suspect, however, that the strong kinship solidarity American Zionist Jews share is a consequence of the Zionist quasi-religious ideology which emphasizes the Holocaust as the incontrovertible symbol of a shared Jewish fate. Being a “Jew” is something which is not considered optional. Rather it is depicted as something thrust upon you as a consequence of irrational Gentile anti-Semitism. Surrounding oneself with your fellow Jews provides comfort and security for those marinated in perpetual victimhood, no matter how irrational this sense of victimhood may appear based upon empirical data. Being convinced that you were born to share the same fate as your fellow Jews would tend to promote a sense of kinship. And to be part of a successful and powerful group adds to the appeal. Furthermore, in our fragmented and atomized society, being part of a community has universal appeal.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 4:28 pm

        Darn it “Keith”, you’re gonna get me in trouble. I’m worried “North” will say I came up with “Boris’s” comments (downpage, 11:43 on) for the express purpose of validating your comment.

      • YoniFalic
        April 21, 2018, 8:23 pm

        Descendants of Medieval Yiddish (and Slavic) speaking Jewish communities are ethnic Slavo-Turks, and I suppose the nostalgic identification an English-speaking American Jewish descendant might have with his Yiddish-speaking ancestors or with Hebrew (relexified Yiddish) speaking Israelis is rather like the nostalgic identification an English-speaking Sicilian American might have with real Sicilians in Sicily.

        Most American Sicilians recognize that the American and Sicilian mafias are criminal and evil. I view American and Israeli Zionism in same way. I have to admit that I don’t have much identification anymore with Jewishness in E. Europe.

        As I have learned more about the history of Jewish exploitation of the peasantry in Poland, Belarus, and the Ukraine, I have come to identify more with the victims of Jewish exploitation than with the Jewish exploiters. I think I have some similarity to the Northerners, who migrated to South after the Civil War and who identified more with freed slaves than with white former Confederates.

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2018, 12:59 pm

        “Descendants of Medieval Yiddish (and Slavic) speaking Jewish communities are…/… real Sicilians in Sicily.”

        Don’t worry, “Yoni” (nice to see you again, too), we can sort all this out over at “23andme.com”.

  7. DaBakr
    April 18, 2018, 6:21 pm

    Oh, by all means, we should all have complete and total respect and reverence for what the colonial puppet montagu had to espouse on. Obviously a genius. And great high jew of jews. And British too.
    Ofir suffers from what used to be thought of as a myth. He has obsessive combative disorder. He can’t really help himself so, since we are to assume he possesses some level of above average intelligence he has fit his intellect into his compulsion. He would likely laugh and chortle along with the others but he truly does not like his people. He may like some Jews who conform to his own twisted definition but he definitely detests the vast majority who define as zionists. Who consider themselves a nation. (Like every one of Israel’s enemies do) Or perhaps he feels great sorrow at how he was bright enough to escape brainwashing yet so many others were not. Sounds so familiar……

    P’S. LOVE the shot giving the finger. Prefect.

    • Mooser
      April 18, 2018, 8:42 pm

      “He has obsessive combative disorder”

      Prefect!

    • Jonathan Ofir
      April 19, 2018, 5:31 am

      DaBakr, you or others do not need to assume that I possess “some above average intelligence”. It seems I do, by IQ tests which put me about 30% over the 100 IQ average. But that’s not your main assumption. Your main assumption is that I have “obsessive combative disorder”. You tell us that it used to be thought of as a myth” – but DaBakr has revealed, through assumption-diagnosis, that it is not a myth! For Jonathan Ofir has proven its existence!
      And this is so because Ofir “truly does not like his people”.
      And which “people” are these, whom I so dislike, DaBakr? Is it the “Jewish people”?
      I have to reflect upon this novel discovery, DaBakr, I really do. I would at first have thought you’re just calling me a “self-hating Jew”, but this appraisal appears to be far more sophisticated.

      I thought I was just using my “above average intelligence” to point out matters which I see as endangering us all – especially Palestinians, but also, and not least, Jews – “my people” as you would say. I thought it was out of care and empathy, but now you have revealed to me the truth – it is out of “obsessive combative disorder”.
      As most, according to your account, regard the condition to be a myth, I suppose that my best option lies in therapy sessions with you, DaBakr. How much is it per hour?

      • gamal
        April 19, 2018, 12:02 pm

        “obsessive combative disorder”.

        DB thats what happens when Skeeter takes a course in Soviet Psychology,

        ” We don’t like anti-social elements round here ”

        but above average intelligence and combative, fiddle on your shoulder, have you considered Mr. Ofir that you may be genetically Gaelic, you’d fit right in around here, so no worries.

      • Mooser
        April 19, 2018, 6:23 pm

        Mr. Ofir it may be possible to seek treatment for “obsessive combative disorder” closer to home. Or at least mulct it for heavy damages, anyway.
        Jonathan Goldberg QC, noted the same disorder in Tony Greenstein, (an anti-Zionist and anti-racist person whose Father was a Rabbi) and offers this diagnosis:

        “And it has indeed been my sad observation after very many years of professional experience that where sons strive so desperately to dishonour their parents and negate everything they stood for publicly, as you have done so prominently, it often stems from a history of abuse, whether verbal, physical or worst of all sexual.”

        Which really reduces the therapy to finding out what you did to your parents that made them do that to you, I guess.

      • DaBakr
        April 25, 2018, 1:48 pm

        Your a devout Zionist hater with a large dose of , you said it, self-hate. I don’t know if you hyper far left progressives believe there is an identity as Jewish outside of religious choice so maybe you do or don’t consider yourself Jewish. Wether you do or you don’t you definitely want to tear down the Jewish State of Israel. Pretty sure you can’t argue with that.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 2:12 pm

        “Dabakr”, there is no doubt that Zionism garnered a tremendous amount of support among Jews. Tremendous energy and support.

        But it simply wasn’t enough.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 7:10 pm

        ” I don’t know if you hyper far left progressives believe there is an identity as Jewish outside of religious choice”

        That’s your problem, “Dabakr”. Everything about being Jewish is a matter of choice now, and you can’t deal with it.

      • echinococcus
        April 26, 2018, 12:57 am

        I don’t know if you hyper far left progressives believe there is an identity as Jewish outside of religious choice

        “believe”? Let’s not be silly. It has nothing to do with “believing”. It’s just a plain fact.

  8. Keith
    April 18, 2018, 7:41 pm

    JONATHAN OFIR- “For Judaism to actually survive this horror and become a mere religion or societal tradition within modern constructs of ‘nations’, the myth of the ‘Jewish nation’ must be deconstructed.”

    Ah, but Jonathan, Judaism becoming a mere religion or social tradition is precisely what Zionism was intended to PREVENT. Modernity was seen by the Zionists as a threat to Jewish peoplehood, the tribalism/kinship which had long been the basis of the Jewish economic role and Jewish relative success. Zionism was/is a reworking of the classical Judaic mythos into secular form. The Zionists are not concerned with the survival of Judaism, the Zionists are concerned with the survival of Jewishness, the tribal/kinship bond of solidarity which forever views the non-Jew as the threatening other. Some quotes for you.

    “Just as the Judaic tradition had formerly told Jews what it meant to be Jewish – had supplied them with a considerable definition of their identity – so does Zionism in the modern age. Jews who lost hold of the mythic structure of the past were given a grasp on a new myth, one composed of the structural remnants of the old one.” (p176, “Stranger at Home: The Holocaust, Zionism, and American Judaism,” Jacob Neuser)

    “Zionism provides a reconstruction of Jewish identity, for it reaffirms the nationhood of Israel in the face of the disintegration of the religious bases of Jewish peoplehood.” (p196, Neuser)

    “…in fact the redemptive valence imputed to the State of Israel in American Judaism constitutes a judgment of Zionism. American Judaism must be deemed a wholly Zionist Judaism.” (p8, Neuser)

    All of this confirms my contention that the success of Zionism in becoming an integral expression of American Judaic thought and action indicates that American Judaism (Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox) can now be described as Judeo-Zionism, non-Zionist Judaism outside the mainstream.

  9. CitizenC
    April 18, 2018, 9:49 pm

    Haneen Zoabi interviewed by the Jewish Press in Berkeley. “We must liberate Americans from the Zionist lobby.”

    https://www.jweekly.com/2018/04/18/mk-zoabi-berkeley-must-liberate-americans-zionist-lobby/

    • Annie Robbins
      April 18, 2018, 11:36 pm

      that journalist is too much:

      I acknowledged her pain, and she did not acknowledge mine. I believe the Palestinians have a right to their own state, and she believes the Jews do not.

      what is her pain? she lives in the bay area, a very comfortable life no doubt. and she’s juxtaposing her “pain” w/Zoabi’s who has witnessed the unbearable dismantling of her homeland, her people imprisoned and killed. what has Sue Fishkoff witnessed?

  10. Boris
    April 18, 2018, 11:43 pm

    Am Israel Chai!

    Whether you like it or not, Ofir.

    • Jonathan Ofir
      April 19, 2018, 6:10 am

      Boris, I frankly don’t care what group or cult you may see yourself as part of and in what way. Where it concerns me is that your perceived ‘nation’ (AM) ‘life’ (CHAI) means the genocide of an indigenous nation. At that point, it becomes everyone’s business.

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 11:32 am

        So, Jonathan, you think that you are a descendant of Khazars, and not the Hebrews who were the indigenous people of the Land of Israel, the area that at some point was renamed to “Palestine”.

        You are obviously a bit ignorant of your own history. Your problem – and I guess it is a big one for you – is that you are part of our nation, whether you like it or not.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 12:20 pm

        ” Your problem – and I guess it is a big one for you – is that you are part of our nation, whether you like it or not.” “Boris”

        You’ve got him now, “Boris”! There’s literally nothing you can’t make him do, now he’s been nationalized.

        This is a refreshing change on the old “I’m-gonna-excommunicate-you” wheeze. Much more inclusive.

        Oh, BTW, “Boris”, what about all those Jews who are the descendants of Khazars, and other non-Hebrew people?
        Got anything for them?

      • DaBakr
        April 25, 2018, 1:58 pm

        Nobody is trying to wipe out Palestinian Arabs. We are in a protracted violent conflict with many and we hold the military edge, obviously. That basic situation is happening in many other places in the world. If conditions were reversed one can wonder as much as one likes. But for now, until a bold leader magically or otherwise appears the protraction will continue

      • Annie Robbins
        April 25, 2018, 2:16 pm

        That basic situation is happening in many other places in the world.

        please illuminate us with other examples of world class colonialist armies pitted against defenseless indigenous people with rocks.

      • MHughes976
        April 25, 2018, 3:41 pm

        If one wishes a conflict to be shortened then surely the logical thing is to make clear what a final and fair resolution to the conflict would look like.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 4:46 pm

        .” But for now, until a bold leader magically or otherwise appears the protraction will continue”

        Enhancing our reputation all the while.

    • eljay
      April 19, 2018, 7:39 am

      || Boris: Am Israel Chai! … ||

      The people of Israel – Jews and non-Jews alike – do live. Unfortunately Zionists:
      – insist that the non-Jewish people of Israel must accept second-class status in a religion-supremacist “Jewish State”; and
      – refuse to allow the non-Jewish refugees from Israel to return to their homes and lands.

      The people of Israel live. The Zionists of Israel – and elsewhere in the world – are determined to keep fucking things up for them.

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 11:38 am

        eljay,

        Let me give you a bit of information.

        Jews are often called “children of Israel”, as, according to the Bible, we are the descendants for Jacob (who was so obnoxious that he had fought God and got this nickname).

        So, “Am Israel” applies to the Jewish nation – not to Israeli citizens.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 12:49 pm

        “Jews are often called “children of Israel”, as, according to the Bible, we are the descendants for Jacob “

        Oh, Jews are often called the descendants of all kinds of things. Try not to let it bother you, “Boris”.
        Rise above it, I say.

      • eljay
        April 20, 2018, 2:09 pm

        || Boris: eljay … ||

        Boris.

        || … Let me give you a bit of information. … ||

        Please do.

        || … Jews are often called “children of Israel” … ||

        That’s nice.

        || … So, “Am Israel” applies to the Jewish nation – not to Israeli citizens. ||

        But there exists no nation of “Jew” or “Jewish” or ancient Israelites, whereas a nation of Israel – comprised of Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis – exists.

        Israel is the nation, and Jewish and non-Jewish Israelis (incl. refugees) are its people.

        It’s time to start living in the 21st century, girl!

  11. Citizen
    April 19, 2018, 5:15 am

    nation | ˈnāSH(ə)n |
    noun
    a large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory: leading industrialized nations.
    • a North American Indian people or confederation of peoples.

  12. Boomer
    April 19, 2018, 7:12 am

    Thanks for the explanation of the confusing use of “nationality” in Israel. I’ve seen references to it here before. At first I was mystified. Gradually, I’ve learned more about it, but it still seemed confusing. This is the best explanation I recall seeing. I realize now that the confusion or mystification is, in a sense, “a feature, not a bug.”

  13. dvered
    April 19, 2018, 5:07 pm

    A group of people can be defined as a nation if and only if all the following 4 conditions are met.
    1.They share the same territory.
    2.They speak the same language.
    3.They have common history.
    4.They have a common economy.
    Needless to say , Jews do not meet even one of these conditions let alone the 4 of them.
    Judaism is a religion but sharing the same religion does not turn people into a nation.A common religion is not a condition for people to become a nation.

    • Mooser
      April 19, 2018, 6:36 pm

      Yeah,mishpocha is great. But Israel can’t tax it, can’t draft from it, and can’t compel this “nation” of Jews to do anything they don’t want to.

    • Boris
      April 20, 2018, 11:57 am

      You are definitely wrong on #3 – Jews (and I am talking about ethnic Jews, not the religious converts) do have common history. We all trace our ancestry to the indigenous people of the Land of Israel.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 12:07 pm

        “Jews (and I am talking about ethnic Jews, not the religious converts) do have common history.”

        What, exactly, is an “ethnic Jew”? Which ethnicity is the normative Jewish ethnicity? Tell us that, and we can begin to worry about “common history”

        Wait, let me guess! Real authentic ethnic Jews come from the exact same place in Russia or thereabouts that you do!

        “We all trace our ancestry…”

        Trace all you want. What does it get you? Can you bring your tracings to a non-Zionist Jew and say ‘Your ancestry demands’ you do this, or that?

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 12:16 pm

        And “Boris”, bubelle, have you ever noticed a funny thing about “converts”? Oddly enough, while they may not be “ethnic Jews”, their children often are. In fact almost always are.

      • gamal
        April 20, 2018, 1:03 pm

        “I am talking about ethnic Jews, not the religious converts”

        Oi, Boris who you calling a “convert” ? and don’t you believe in conversion? is it some kind of scam producing ersatz Jews?

        once you start with that nonsense “the centre cannot hold” ..ethnicity is not like the electromagnetic force look now you have Israel allied with Al Quaida and Saudi how can that lead to a positive outcome for either Israelis, converts and “ethnics” or American Jews with all the necessary qualifications unless you view things like some Ethnic war video game …ethnic the word should be forgotten, I refer you to Haile Selassies’ speech that Marley

        https://youtu.be/43oHdqDdups

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 1:27 pm

        Well, Moo, we had that conversation before.

        I deliberately did not list my ethnicity at 23andme and they had identified me as an Ashkenazi Jew. So, Ofir, Weiss, even you can do the same and see if you belong.

        Can’t argue with science, girl!

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 2:56 pm

        “see if you belong.”

        Gosh, there must be an awful lot of phony Jews.

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 3:23 pm

        … phony Jews

        Actually, it is the other way around. There are lot of people who don’t know they are Jews.

        I was contacted by a new relative through 23andme. She was adopted. Was raised as a Baptist.

        Learned of her Jewish ancestry. Her biological father – whom I don’t know – is my relative. She wanted to meet him.

        Actually, she told me that even before she learned that she was half-Jewish she had a lot of interest in Jewish culture. I guess it comes with genes.

      • James North
        April 20, 2018, 3:33 pm

        Mooser: Please. Your “Boris” sock puppet is going too far this time. “It comes with genes?”

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 3:52 pm

        “Mooser: Please. Your “Boris” sock puppet is going too far this time.”

        Sorry, sorry, I gotta stick in a joke from time-to-time, or I’ll go nuts.

      • MHughes976
        April 20, 2018, 3:55 pm

        If you define ‘shared history’ as ‘what those who are descednded genetically, to a sufficient degree, from the a certain group existing at a certain place for a certain time have’ and define ‘’nationality’ as ‘what those with a shared history have” that is up to you. The ‘sufficient degree’ might be a bit hard to define and the claims to descent over a long time might be hard to verify but still, if that is the way you wish to use words you are entitled to have your wish, though the rest of us are equally entitlefbto use the same words with other definitions. I would think that many people might have more than one nationality by your standard. In any event nationality would not seem to imply any particular political rights.

      • Maghlawatan
        April 20, 2018, 3:58 pm

        Jewish culture or Israeli culture, Boris? AFAIK sadism is not genetic.

      • Kaisa of Finland
        April 20, 2018, 4:15 pm

        “Well, Moo..”

        Here is some Moo for you..

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 4:20 pm

        “I deliberately did not list my ethnicity at 23andme and they had identified me as an Ashkenazi Jew.”

        And your IQ went up 15 pts., and your visage, as you considered the news, came to look like that of a Hittite Prince!

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 4:27 pm

        Kaisa,

        You got it!

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 4:28 pm

        I know, looser, you remember…

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 4:30 pm

        James,

        Please don’t tell me that you have just realized that Mondo is one giant hasbara project.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 4:50 pm

        “I know, looser, you remember…” “Jackdaw”

        “Do you want to know what Ashkenazi Jews look like? Go to New York’s Metropolitan Museum. In their Egyptian section there is a picture of a Hittite prince. He “looks Jewish”. That’s what Ashkenazi Jews look like.” “Boris” March 2017

      • echinococcus
        April 20, 2018, 6:00 pm

        Hughes,

        If you define ‘shared history’ as ‘what those who are descednded genetically, to a sufficient degree, from the a certain group existing at a certain place for a certain time have’ and define ‘’nationality’ as ‘what those with a shared history have” that is up to you

        Interesting. Well, the “shared history” and “descednded genetically, to a sufficient degree, from the a certain group existing at a certain place for a certain time” eliminates, right there and forever, any “Jewish” character. It may apply severally to Ashkenazis, Sefardí, German or Arab or Ethiopian Jews, etc.

      • echinococcus
        April 20, 2018, 6:03 pm

        North,

        That “it comes with the genes” is not more offensive than a lot of other undigested pop-science sh|t we read here about biology and population genetics. In fact, it might even be comparatively benign.

      • echinococcus
        April 20, 2018, 6:15 pm

        Boris,

        Of course you got identified as Ashkenazi. In fact, I had you tagged as Ashkenazi the first time you started writing nonsense here.
        But “Jewish”, well, I don’t know. You may be religious but that’s something only you will know.

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 6:51 pm

        echinococcus moronus,

        Of course you got identified as Ashkenazi. …. You may be religious but that’s something only you will know.

        So, how had 23andme learned about my religious belief?

        Let your imagination run wild, my worm-friend.

      • echinococcus
        April 20, 2018, 7:56 pm

        Tovarishch Boris says “Ashkenazi” is a religion. Don’t believe me? Read him.

      • eljay
        April 20, 2018, 8:38 pm

        || Boris: … So, how had 23andme learned about my religious belief? … ||

        According to 23andme:

        … Most people with Ashkenazi ancestry trace their DNA to Eastern and Central Europe, but also have Middle Eastern ancestry …

        All it says is that you’ve got some ME ancestry. BFD. It doesn’t entitle you and Zionists like you to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their homes and lands in geographic Palestine in order to establish a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” for people who share you religion-based identity of Jewish.

      • YoniFalic
        April 21, 2018, 9:19 pm

        What nonsense!

        Zionism has little connection to Jewish religion except to justify depredations on non-Jews by slicing and dicing Judaic scripture.

        Zionism is just another expression of Central and East European ethnoracial politics.

        The obsession with Palestine is something new. Before Zionism E. European Jews had little interest in Palestine and were likely to be insulted when someone claimed that they were aliens in Europe and should return to Palestine, which was mostly a place were old people went to die and to which eccentrics were dispatched.

        There were a good number of Jerusalems among the world Jewish community: Vilna the Jerusalem of Lithuania (or North), Amsterdam the Jerusalem of the West, Saloniki la chica Jerusalem, Zakho the Jerusalem of Assyria, Sarajevo the Jerusalem of the Balkans, Carpentras the Jerusalem of Provence, Djerba the Jerusalem of N. Africa, etc. Palestinians unlike Jews loved and cared for Jerusalem, which hosted several important Islamic schools but no comparable Jewish schools (after 1127) until genocidal racist Zionists began their invasion in the 19th century.

        The E. European obsession with Palestine seems to begin after the Czarist government at Jewish request changed the official term for Jew from жид (Żyd), which had no obvious association with Palestine, to еврей (hebrajski), which was compatible with a sort of secular Hebraism.

        Not only was the Czarist government indifferent to the ridiculous mythological associations of еврей, but it also had no use for the Polish legal concept of religious estate (сословие). Yet the name change seems to have fit with general Czarist policy.

        How did the name change fit with Czarist policy? The Czarist government realized that confining “Jewish” Slavo-Turks to Czarist Poland (their native homeland) was not working out and envisaged benefits from distributing them throughout the Empire and assimilating them to local peoples.

        Reidentifying Slavo-Turks as a secular Hebraic population with no homeland within the Empire was one way of justifying such developing Czarist policy toward “Jewish” Slavo-Turks.

        [Note that Czarist policy toward Jews of other ethnic groups was very different.]

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:21 am

        What nonsense!”

        It sure is, “Yoni”!! Where’s the historical sweep? Where’s the UNITY? Where’s the thread of ethics, justice and tradition woven into the tapestry of Jewish history? Where’s the meshpokha?
        What about the long struggle against sumptuary laws, so we could finally wear our genes with pride.

        Although (like Capt. Corcoran) I occupy a station in the lower middle class, I can afford much better Jewish history than that.

      • Mooser
        April 26, 2018, 11:03 am

        Okay, you want historical sweep? You want unity? Well, there’s an English translation of Solzhenitsyn’s “200 Years Together” on the web.

        The last chapters are very interesting. Man, can we play the in-and-out game, or what?

    • Mooser
      April 20, 2018, 12:31 pm

      4. They have a common economy.”

      Not true. Some of us are quite generous. Like you, “Boris”.
      Just when non-Jews might be losing the idea of a “ethnic Jew”, you want to make sure they keep it.

      • James North
        April 20, 2018, 3:09 pm

        Mooser: You are cunning. You crafted a distinct but equally absurd persona for “Boris,” your second sock-puppet, and now you pretend to argue with him just as you do with “Grover.” Cunning.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 4:05 pm

        “North” , please, a little discretion here? Okay? Look, you can see clearly that “Boris” and “Grover” are, of course, parodies, (many times verging on outright anti-semitism, too) but nobody else has caught on. And if moderation catches on, I’ll get banned. Just do me a favor and pretend they’re real.
        They think they are, and that’s what is important.

      • Boris
        April 20, 2018, 4:36 pm

        Moo,

        You have been caught with your pants down.

        I have to give credit to the vigilant members of BDS community who DUMP BS from people like you and remove your ugly Zionist mask to open up your equally ugly hasbara face.

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 4:58 pm

        “You have been caught with your pants down.”

        Ha-ha-ha jokes on you. I don’t wear ’em.

        Oh crap, joke is on me! “Boris” has just outed me for sock-puppeting!

        (BTW, “Boris” are you using “hasbara” to indicate all lies and propaganda, no matter what the source? Not clear on your use of “hasbara”)

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 5:22 pm

        “Boris” whatever you do, please don’t e-mail the Mods and explain the sock-puppet situation to them. They will ban me in a heartbeat. Can I count on a little tribal unity? Give me your shalom vow you won’t snitch.

    • echinococcus
      April 20, 2018, 6:07 pm

      2.They speak the same language.

      The Swiss, the Finns, the US-Americans and a host of other nations want to protest.
      This being said, the Jews sure don’t speak the same language.

    • Nathan
      April 25, 2018, 8:32 pm

      dvered – There is a group of people that shares a particular territory (the western shore of Asia). This very same group of people speaks a common language (Hebrew), and they certainly have a common history (for example, winning the Eurovision song festival in 1979). Moreover, they seem to have a common economy (based on the currency called the sheqel). So, by your definition, this group of people is a nation. Isn’t that just wonderful? Now, our task is to decide what is the name of this nation. Some might say that they are Jews. Some insist that they are Khazarians or even “Turko-Slavs”. A rose by any other name still smells so sweet, as Shakespeare noted. Anyway, it’s a nation in the dvered-dictionary, and this nation has established its state already a very long time ago.

      This whole “nation” debate is just another way of trying to delegitimize the State of Israel. Apparently, there are anti-Israel people who feel that Israel can be removed from the map if only it can be established that the “Jews are merely a religious community”, or that the “English had no right to issue the Balfour Declaration”, or that the “Bible is fiction”, etc.

      It would be nice if there would be a debate about how to end the conflict (i.e. what to do tomorrow morning). However, since the anti-Israel crowd just can’t imagine peace with Israel, they prefer to spend their time and energy telling themselves that “Judaism is a religion”, expecting the earth to shake beneath our feet when hearing this amazing revelation.

      • RoHa
        April 26, 2018, 12:02 am

        “Now, our task is to decide what is the name of this nation. Some might say that they are Jews.”

        And they would be wrong.
        The name of this p-nation is Israel, but there is no Israeli n-nation. The p-nation is inhabited by an n-nation of Israeli Jews and large minority of Israeli Arabs who are not Jews.

        The rest of the world’s Jews are not part of the n-nation of Israeli Jews, and do not constitute a single n-nation themselves.

        “It would be nice if there would be a debate about how to end the conflict (i.e. what to do tomorrow morning). ”

        It would be nice if there were to be a debate about how to end the conflict (i.e. what to do tomorrow morning). However, since the pro-Israel crowd just refuse to take any steps towards justice and decency, they make peace with Israel impossible.

      • eljay
        April 26, 2018, 7:34 am

        || Nathan: … It would be nice if there would be a debate about how to end the conflict (i.e. what to do tomorrow morning). However, since the anti-Israel crowd just can’t imagine peace with Israel … ||

        I think the “anti-Israel” crowd (or some portion of it) actually can imagine peace with an Israel that:
        – ends its on-going occupation and colonization of territory outside of its / Partition borders (or even 1967 borders);
        – honours its obligations under international law (incl. RoR);
        – accepts responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes; and
        – becomes the state of and for all of its Israeli citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally.

        Unfortunately, no Zionist in the pro-Israel crowd is capable of imagining anything other than:
        – maintaining Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and/for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – in as much as possible of geographic Palestine;
        – absolving Israel of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR); and
        – absolving Israel of responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes.

      • Nathan
        April 28, 2018, 4:23 pm

        eljay – It’s clear to you that the anti-Israel crowd cannot imagine peace with Israel, and indeed you cannot even utter the words “peace with Israel”. Your mention of “peace with an Israel” is manipulative and misleading. It sounds as if you’re contradicting my claim that the anti-Israel crowd cannot imagine peace with Israel, but in reality you agree with me. Your adding the article (“an Israel”) is your way of saying that you don’t object to the theoretical existence in peace of some other state that might be called “Israel”, but you absolutely will not accept peace with Israel.

        In these debates with anti-Israel people, it is always so obvious that the vision is the demise of Israel. However, at times, the anti-Israel activist feels that he cannot admit that he is calling for ending Israel’s existence – but, at the same time he won’t go on record saying that Israel has the right to live in peace. So, the “solution” is to make a statement in strange English. Your choice of strange English was “an Israel”.

      • eljay
        April 28, 2018, 6:06 pm

        || Nathan: eljay – It’s clear to you that the anti-Israel crowd cannot imagine peace with Israel … ||

        You appear again to be having issues with reading comprehension. I wrote: “I think the “anti-Israel” crowd (or some portion of it) actually can imagine peace … ”

        || … and indeed you cannot even utter the words “peace with Israel”. … ||

        Peace with Israel. I’m not against it.

        || … Your mention of “peace with an Israel” is manipulative and misleading. … ||

        It’s very clear and not the least bit manipulative or misleading.

        || … It sounds as if you’re contradicting my claim that the anti-Israel crowd cannot imagine peace with Israel, but in reality you agree with me. … ||

        No, I’m very clearly disagreeing with your assertion that the “anti-Israel” crowd can’t imagine a peace with Israel.

        || … Your adding the article (“an Israel”) is your way of saying that you don’t object to the theoretical existence in peace of some other state that might be called “Israel”, but you absolutely will not accept peace with Israel. … ||

        No, it’s my way of saying that I support peace…
        – with a secular and democratic Israel of and for all Israelis, equally; but
        – not with oppressive, colonialist, (war) criminal and religion-supremacist “Jewish State”.

        || … In these debates with anti-Israel people, it is always so obvious that the vision is the demise of Israel. … ||

        In these debates with some “anti-Israel” people, maybe, but not in any debate with me.

        But as I pointed out – and as you are entirely unable to dispute – no Zionist in the pro-Israel crowd is capable of imagining anything other than:
        – maintaining Israel as a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” – a state primarily of and/for Jewish Israelis and non-Israeli Jews – in as much as possible of geographic Palestine;
        – absolving Israel of its obligations under international law (incl. RoR); and
        – absolving Israel of responsibility and accountability for its past and on-going (war) crimes.

        || … However, at times, the anti-Israel activist feels that he cannot admit that he is calling for ending Israel’s existence – but, at the same time he won’t go on record saying that Israel has the right to live in peace. So, the “solution” is to make a statement in strange English. Your choice of strange English was “an Israel”. ||

        I’ve repeatedly stated that I’m entirely for two secular and democratic states – Israel and Palestine – of and for all of their respective citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally. I believe that both states are entitled to live in peace.

        When Zionists like you talk about Israel, everything revolves around securing Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine.

        Your attempt at indignation is incredibly lame. Nevertheless, I am amused.  :-)

  14. Ossinev
    April 20, 2018, 12:36 pm

    @Boris
    “Jews (and I am talking about ethnic Jews, not the religious converts) do have common history. We all trace our ancestry to the indigenous people of the Land of Israel”

    So only what you describe as “ethnic Jews” do have a common history. It would help if you defined just what exactly an “ethnic” Jew is. Is it for example a person who currently practices the religious cult of Judaism whose great great x multiples grandmother is said to have lived in the ancient Kingdom of Judea and is said to have practiced one of the local Middle Eastern religions = the same Judaism.As for the”religious converts” it would help if you offered specifics like proportions dates/periods/locations/races being converted.

    • Boris
      April 20, 2018, 4:39 pm

      Is this a joke?

      • Mooser
        April 20, 2018, 5:12 pm

        “Is this a joke?”

        No joke. If you want to convince Jews they have some obligation to your hierarchy of “ethnic Jews” and “religious converts” you’ve got some explaining to do.

    • RoHa
      April 20, 2018, 7:52 pm

      It would help if we had a definition of “common history”. Boris seems to think it means “biological descent from a single ancestor”. (And I’m sure he can produce a family tree, along with parish records and other supporting documents from Somerset House, that prove his descent from Jacob.) But to use this when trying to determine what is and what isn’t a nation will lead to absurdities.

      • echinococcus
        April 20, 2018, 10:16 pm

        Parish records, Somerset House –tsk tsk.
        Scrolls with a list of begats, perhaps.

      • Boris
        April 21, 2018, 11:30 am

        Boris seems to think it means “biological descent from a single ancestor”.

        Priceless!

        Classic straw man argument – you win the price for this thread.

      • Mooser
        April 21, 2018, 6:45 pm

        “Classic straw man argument”

        Jacob was a straw man? You must be getting confused. It was the bush which caught on fire, not Jacob.

      • gamal
        April 21, 2018, 7:36 pm

        “Jacob was a straw man? You must be getting confused. It was the bush which caught on fire, not Jacob.”

        Wicker Man, Jacob was the Wicker Man…so the Bible is a remake or what…should I still take off my shoes?

      • RoHa
        April 21, 2018, 7:44 pm

        “Jews are often called “children of Israel”, as, according to the Bible, we are the descendants for Jacob”

        Doesn’t Jacob count as a single ancestor?

      • gamal
        April 21, 2018, 8:49 pm

        “a single ancestor?”

        If it only it were that easy, I secured help, it was a team effort..

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2018, 12:17 pm

        “Doesn’t Jacob count as a single ancestor?”

        I don’t see how he is any ancestor at all. Doesn’t Judaism descend through the matriarchal line?

      • Keith
        April 22, 2018, 6:46 pm

        MOOSER- “Doesn’t Judaism descend through the matriarchal line?”

        Judaism perhaps, but Jewishness no. Since Israel’s law of return defines who is a Jew “based upon Hitler’s Nuremberg Laws,” it is Hitler’s opinion that matters to Israel. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an-introduction-to-the-law-of-return

      • RoHa
        April 22, 2018, 7:21 pm

        Perhaps a slip of the keyboard, Mooser. Boris accidentally left off the Ms.
        If Ms Jacob was a single ancestor, rumour has it that she was not the last Jewish woman to indulge in parthenogenesis.

      • MHughes976
        April 23, 2018, 9:19 am

        I would be astonished if I did not have at least one ancestor who was Jewish and moved westward in Roman times – and if I have that ancestor I have thousands of ancestors who were his or her ancestors and lived in Palestine from say 1500 to 1 BCE. If it’s a question of descent from one common ancestor then there are millions of nations, intermingling but still distinct, coexisting in this world, none of them with a right to a national territory.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:27 am

        “I would be astonished if I did not have at least one ancestor who was Jewish and moved westward in Roman times”

        Everybody wants to get into the act.
        Look, don’t waste your money on genetic testing. Just answer one question: Would you prefer a pastrami sandwich, or mayonnaise on white bread?

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:57 am

        “Judaism perhaps, but Jewishness no.”

        Oy Gevalt, so complicated. How will I ever know what I am?

        (MHughes, if the answer is “both”, we move on to “which would you take, Kaopectate or Alka-Seltzer?”)

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 12:38 pm

        “not the last Jewish woman to indulge in parthenogenesis.”

        My wife has never even suggested we should go to Greece and have a baby.

      • MHughes976
        April 25, 2018, 3:48 pm

        Pastrami sandwich definitely. Not too fond of white bread or mayo.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 6:15 pm

        “Pastrami sandwich definitely.”

        So there you go. Now, wasn’t that a lot easier than spitting in some stupid tube, or a bris?

    • RoHa
      April 22, 2018, 2:05 am

      I have used up enough electrons on the notion of “nation”, and my p-nation, n-nation, c-nation typology, in past posts. I don’t want to go over it all again.

      I do not know whether the Hebrew word “am” has the same semantic range as the English word “nation”.

      I will say that I take the idea of “a common history” as meaning that the people and the social organization of the proposed “nation” are affected by the same events. In Britain, both non-Jews and Jews are affected by (e.g.) the Chartist Movement, the tragic entry in to the EU, and the Thatcher terror. Russian Jews are far less affected by these.
      On this interpretation of “a common history”, British Jews are part of the British nation. Russian Jews are not.

      • Emory Riddle
        April 23, 2018, 7:40 am

        Since Israel’s law of return defines who is a Jew “based upon Hitler’s Nuremberg Laws,” it is Hitler’s opinion that matters to Israel.

        This is true. The Nazis decide who is Jewish and who is not as far as Israel is concerned.

  15. lonely rico
    April 20, 2018, 7:37 pm

    “I don’t wear ’em”

    Oh my gawd Mooser –

    https://goo.gl/images/Nbdphq

    Tell me it ain’t so.

    Jeez. I dunno.

    I will try to understand,

    but, but …

    • Mooser
      April 21, 2018, 12:13 pm

      Bullwinkle assumed many disguises in pursuit of the Kirwood Derby, continuity, or battling those supreme no-goodniks, Boris and Natasha.
      And mostly without trousers, which contributed to the dream-like nature of the show.

  16. Stogumber
    April 21, 2018, 5:09 am

    Dear Mr. Ofir,

    you are wrong because you haven’t begun with the central question: What’s the use of “peoples”, “ethnies” or “nations”?

    A “nation” is basically a voluntary self-help community – people are better off if they associate for to support each others’ advancement. And such communities will strive for a certain amount of self-government or autonomy.

    Until the eighteenth century the Jewish community was happily associated around a belief system, but when more and more Jews became secularized, the self-help community had to form around non-religious, “ethnical” similarities.

    Mere territorial nearness will never create a sufficiently strong bond to form a self help community – not in our days of easy migration. Some kind of territorial organization is perhaps necessary, but only as a weak organization. (The common Jacobine-Bolshevist idea that a territorial “state” shall at the same time have the right to impose on all its inhabitants a common ideology (or phraseology”) is atrocious.) So there’s no base for a statist community or “state nation “.

    You seem to expect a survval of Judaism as a “societal tradition”. If “societal tradition” is the same as “culture”, this leads back to the idea of a cultural/ethnical community. If societal tradition is something less than culture, I don’t see the relevance.

  17. Ossinev
    April 21, 2018, 8:30 am

    @Boris
    “Is this a joke?”

    Is that your response !? At least try FGS !

    • Boris
      April 21, 2018, 12:19 pm

      FGS?

      Federation of Genealogical Societies?

      First I am going to try Federation of Gynecological Societies. Maybe I will meet Moo there.

      • Mooser
        April 21, 2018, 7:28 pm

        “Boris seems to think it means “biological descent from a single ancestor”.

        Yes, as “Boris” said:

        “Jews are often called “children of Israel”, as, according to the Bible, we are the descendants for Jacob” Boris” 11:38

        And then doubles-down:

        “I am talking about ethnic Jews, not the religious converts” “Boris”

        Imagine that, keeping your family endogamous through all the exigencies of Jewish history. Not easy.

      • Boris
        April 21, 2018, 10:37 pm

        I was only explaining why the term “Am Israel” applies to Jews.

        As you Moo know I had written before – I am an atheist.

      • Mooser
        April 22, 2018, 12:26 pm

        “As you Moo know I had written before – I am an atheist.”

        An Jewish atheist with the right set of Jewish genes. You should open a casino, featuring a new card game called “23”. Everyone will play, even tho they know the odds are with the house.

  18. hophmi
    April 21, 2018, 1:40 pm

    Montagu’s statement reads like an antisemitic screed. He also claimed that Jews were too insular, and he claims (absolutely wrongly) that Israel will lead Britain revoking the citizenship of Jews. So interesting that Ofir cites it.

    • Mooser
      April 21, 2018, 6:59 pm

      “Hophmi”, you poor schlump, the days in which criticism of Israel, or even anti-Zionism, can be automatically conflated with anti-Semitism are gone.
      Get a new schtik. Have you noticed this one working?

  19. RoHa
    April 21, 2018, 8:21 pm

    Everything seems anti-Semitic to you, hophmi. However, I congratulate you on, for once, facing up to the important question: was Montagu right?

    You say that he was wrong to say that Israel would lead Britain revoking the citizenship of Jews. I can’t find that, so if he did say it, he was wrong.
    (Perhaps you can refer me to the actual words.)

    I know he did say that Jews would be regarded as being in some way foreign, and he was right about that. Jews are now often suspected of greater loyalty to Israel than to their country of birth and citizenship. More importantly, many Jews regard Jews as in some way foreign, when they claim Israel as their “homeland”, and urge Jews to “make Aliyah”.

    • echinococcus
      April 22, 2018, 3:17 am

      You say that he was wrong to say that Israel would lead Britain revoking the citizenship of Jews. I can’t find that, so if he did say it, he was wrong.

      Wrong? If GB had taken the Zionists at their word and agreed with them that this riffraff effectively represented “Jews” as a “nation”, then the ineluctable logical move would have been the revocation of the “citizenship of Jews”. Even as despicable and downright absurd as Britain’s government has always been, it never went as low as the Zionists (except perhaps under May) but Montagu’s statement was not wrong –it was perfectly logical.

      • RoHa
        April 22, 2018, 7:28 pm

        Logical indeed. Sir Isaac Isaacs made the same point.

        However, the British Government did not revoke the citizenships, and Jews are still permitted to be Members of Federal Parliament is spite of the law that Members must be Austalian nationals only, and have no claim on any other nationality.

      • echinococcus
        April 22, 2018, 11:58 pm

        Sir Isaac Isaacs, whom I always somehow admired but only now got to Google, seems to have had more and juicier things to say about this. The following, if Wikipedia is correct for once, should be posted on every wall:

        Isaacs’ main objections to Political Zionism[1] were:

        1. “A negation of Democracy, and an attempt to revert to the Church-State of bygone ages.
        2. Provocative anti-Semitism.
        3. Unwarranted by the Balfour Declaration, the Mandate, or any other right; contrary to Zionist assurances to Britain and to the Arabs and in present conditions unjust to other Palestinians politically and to other religions.
        4. As regards unrestricted immigration, a discriminatory and an undemocratic camouflage for a Jewish State.
        5. An obstruction to the consent of the Arabs to the peaceful and prosperous settlement in Palestine of hundreds of thousands of suffering European Jews, the victims of Nazi atrocities; and provocative of Moslem antagonism within and beyond the Empire, and consequently a danger to its integrity and safety.
        6. Inconsistent in demanding on one hand, on a basis of a separate Jewish nationality everywhere Jews are found, Jewish domination in Palestine, and at the same time claiming complete Jewish equality elsewhere than in Palestine, on the basis of a nationality common to the citizens of every faith.”

        [1] and what is apolitical Zionism?

  20. Naftush
    April 22, 2018, 1:50 am

    The statement closest to factuality in Ofir’s piece is its headline. For Ofir and the MW chorus, the target for destruction is indeed Jewish nationhood and not borders, policies, Netanyahu, or anything else. Nor does the betterment of anything Palestinian matter much. The thing is, national vs. non-national Jews have been carrying out a natural experiment for a century or more. The results are in: national Jewishness wins big. From the inception of Zionism, its viability in all measures of nationhood — linguistic, social, economic, cultural, judicial, territorial, political, etc. — was proved with such celerity that one should conclude that Jewishness qualified as nationhood long before. Ofir proves it backhandedly by resorting to de-nationalized Diaspora Jews to prove his point.

  21. Stogumber
    April 22, 2018, 3:36 am

    What is the main difference between rightwing nationalist and leftwing antinationalists..
    The rightwingers will perhaps suppress one single inimical nation. But the leftwingers want to suppress all nations. That is why they are seen as more intolerant.

    • Mooser
      April 22, 2018, 12:31 pm

      ” What is the main difference between rightwing nationalist and leftwing antinationalists..
      The rightwingers will perhaps suppress one single inimical nation. But the leftwingers want to suppress all nations. That is why they are seen as more intolerant”

      My Gawd, that was brilliant!!! Maybe the tattoo parlor is still open…

    • Naftush
      April 23, 2018, 2:15 am

      I can see wanting to suppress a nationalism. But if you buy Anderson’s view of nationhood as something that all humans share today, the idea of suppressing “all nations” sounds worse than intolerant; it sounds nihilistic.

  22. Ossinev
    April 22, 2018, 7:31 am

    @Boris
    Still no effort to make a response then. So here we go again. You used the term “ethnic Jews”. What is an “ethnic Jew”?
    BTW(By the way) FGS = For God`s Sake. But hey if you have found a Federation of Genealogical Studies they might be able to help you with the response which you appear to be avoiding.
    BTW(see above) as a terminally lapsed Catholic I would be interested to know if the FGS can confirm if there is some kind of default Catholic ethnicity which I retain despite my heresy.

    • Boris
      April 23, 2018, 12:11 am

      @Ossinev

      I don’t like to write long comments as they often don’t go through the “moderation”.

      An ethnic group is a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, history, religion, language, etc.

      There are three major Jewish ethnic groups – all sharing the common history of having emerged from the Land of Israel and who diverged over period of centuries – Mizrahim, Sephardim, and Ashkenazim. You can google these to learn more.

      There are other groups that are also recognized now as Jewish ethnic groups – like, for example, falasha (Jews from Ethiopia).

      You seem to insist that being Jewish is simply adhering to Judaism. That’s why you mentioned that you are Catholic. But Catholicism is a religion, not ethnicity. There are Irish Catholics, Spanish Catholics, Desmond Tutu Catholics, etc. Irish, Spanish, South African (maybe not, maybe it is Xosa or whatever) – are the ethnicities. These groups of people, while sharing a religion, are ethnically different.

      And now I am going to ask you a question that I had asked on this thread, and people like you fail to understand.

      23andme did not ask me what my religion is or was. They asked only for my saliva.

      And then they identified me as a European Jew. If, according to you, being Jewish is just practicing Judaism, how did they make the determination that I am a Jew?

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:36 am

        “There are three major Jewish ethnic groups”

        Each one containing about 60 million people, for a total of 180 million!

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 11:40 am

        “If, according to you, being Jewish is just practicing Judaism, how did they make the determination that I am a Jew?”

        Gee, I wonder. Maybe they got a tip.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 12:15 pm

        “how did they make the determination that I am a Jew?”

        Gee, “Boris”, I can’t help but wonder about all those poor ringers who, ‘asked only for their saliva’, sent in their spit in good faith, only to receive the shocking news that their spit-genes say they are definitely not Jews?
        Must be devastating news.

      • Jethro
        April 23, 2018, 12:18 pm

        If, according to you, being Jewish is just practicing Judaism, how did they make the determination that I am a Jew?

        As with most nonsensical Jewish hagiography spouted by Zionists, the answer is–once again–subversion.

        https://khazardnaproject.wordpress.com/2017/08/29/shaming-23andme-works/

        “How The Forward shamed 23andme into “fixing” Jewish history”

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 2:07 pm

        “How The Forward shamed 23andme into “fixing” Jewish history”

        We are, like anybody else, entitled to all the history we can afford!

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 2:16 pm

        @Jethro

        You claim that Jews are the descendants of Khazars not of the Hebrew nation from Judea. That’s a totally different topic.

        However, thanks to agree with me that being Jewish has nothing to do with religion.

        On a totally different topic – there is an interesting feature in Mondosucks. Seems like it is possible to update comments AFTER they are approved by the MOOOOODERATOR.

        Should I put some “control words” here?

        Yes, if you read this, then it is totally possible.

        Moo, how do you like it? We can almost have a real-time chat.

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 2:18 pm

        @Moooooooser

        I see – you don’t have a tip, that’s why you are a moose cow.

      • Jethro
        April 23, 2018, 2:34 pm

        @ Boris.

        The point is, of course, that Jewish pressure groups pressed 23andme to recognize Khazarian/Askanazi descent as “European Jew.”

        Understandably, the 23andme update was received with confusion. Why? Well, AJs ARE from the Caucasus-Turkish region, as any biogeography analyses done so far indicated (Das et al. 2017) (and see above). GPS Origin results are here. To hide the ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews (AJs), 23andme and almost every company, except GPS Origins, which I developed, simply report “Ashkenazic Jewish” as ancestry. In other words, they tell AJs (and many other non-Jews) that they are AJs, and thus overcome the origin/geography question.

        https://khazardnaproject.wordpress.com/2017/08/29/shaming-23andme-works/

        I would add that your weird explanation that “There are three major Jewish ethnic groups – all sharing the common history of having emerged from the Land of Israel ” is debunked by the above.

        In addition, in declaring that there are “three major Jewish ethnic groups,” you are saying that there are three ethnic groups whose religion is Judaism, not that these three ethnic groups share the same ethnicity. Obviously. “Jewish” is not an ethnicity.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 2:44 pm

        “I see – you don’t have a tip, that’s why you are a moose cow.”

        Gee, I knew there was conflict between proponents of brit mila and brit periah , but I never thought we’d be airing it in public.

        “Moo, how do you like it? We can almost have a real-time chat.”

        You’ve outsmarted the Mods, “Boris”. Once you outed yourself as my sock-puppet, all the onus shifts to me.

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 3:20 pm

        Moo,

        Don’t give yourself too much credit. You don’t even know how to do stakeout inside italics like in moosecow.

        In any case, I always have that extended finger for you

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 5:53 pm

        “In any case, I always have that extended finger for you”

        Now that you have learned how to bypass the Moderators, you’re invincible, “Boris”!

      • Keith
        April 23, 2018, 7:57 pm

        JETHRO- “How The Forward shamed 23andme into “fixing” Jewish history”

        Although perhaps significant in regards to the issue Boris raised, it is nonetheless a side issue in regards to the big picture. “One of the founders of 23andMe, Anne Wojcicki, is presently married to Sergei Brin, the founder of Google.” (see below) Google is in the data mining business and apparently so is 23andMe. I strongly suspect that Google’s biggest customer is the US government (NSA, CIA,etc). Facebook, Google, 23andMe, etc, are all part of the most intensive surveillance state ever imagined. We live in mind boggling times, the full ramifications far from apparent.

        “But as the FDA frets about the accuracy of 23andMe’s tests, it is missing their true function, and consequently the agency has no clue about the real dangers they pose. The Personal Genome Service isn’t primarily intended to be a medical device. It is a mechanism meant to be a front end for a massive information-gathering operation against an unwitting public.” (Charles Seife) https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrifying-but-not-for-the-reasons-the-fda-thinks/

      • Jethro
        April 23, 2018, 10:11 pm

        @ Keith– you are right about the bigger picture. People are nuts to willingly give their DNA to a corporation.

      • Sibiriak
        April 24, 2018, 7:48 am

        Keith: I strongly suspect that Google’s biggest customer is the US government (NSA, CIA,etc). Facebook, Google, 23andMe, etc, are all part of the most intensive surveillance state ever imagined. ETC.
        ———————————
        Excellent points.

        Mark Zuckerberg has, under great pressure, finally fessed up to some of his company’s major misdeeds, and is taking important steps to rectify them–one of the first and most important being a completely independent and unbiased analysis of the problem.

        The Atlantic, April 9, 2018:

        “Well, I certainly feel very bad, and I’m sorry that we did not do a better job of finding the Russian interference during the 2016 election,” Zuckerberg told me. “I mean, that was a huge miss.”

        * * *

        “Now I just think we understand—both because of the ability for us to develop these things and because of the scale at which we operate—that it’s also our responsibility to make sure that all these tools are used well, not just to put them in people’s hands,” Zuckerberg said.

        * * *
        Today, Zuckerberg unveils the newest attempt at reform. Facebook will give a committee of senior academics independent access to its data, allowing researchers to study the social network’s effect on democracy and elections. The work will be paid for by foundations spanning the ideological spectrum , and—most importantly—Facebook says it will not be able to veto studies before their publication.

        * * *

        […]Both the committee of academics and their research grants will be funded by a group of independent foundations, including the Hewlett Foundation, the Omidyar Network, and the Charles Koch Foundation.

        https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/04/mark-zuckerberg-atlantic-exclusive/557489/

      • Mooser
        April 24, 2018, 11:53 am

        “People are nuts to willingly give their DNA to a corporation.”

        But just look at what you get in return! Certainty, security, and most of all, pride! A pride which nobody can take, because you are certified Jewish, you’re on the list, and won’t miss out on any exclusive offers.

  23. Ossinev
    April 23, 2018, 10:49 am

    @boris
    Thanks for having a go.
    “You seem to insist that being Jewish is simply adhering to Judaism. That’s why you mentioned that you are Catholic. But Catholicism is a religion, not ethnicity. There are Irish Catholics, Spanish Catholics, Desmond Tutu Catholics, etc. Irish, Spanish, South African (maybe not, maybe it is Xosa or whatever) – are the ethnicities. These groups of people, while sharing a religion, are ethnically different”
    So one can be a 1)Spanish Catholic or 2) a Spanish Muslim or 3) a Spanish Jew but 1) and 2) are people of Spanish ethnicity who simply practice a different form of religion whereas 3) is a non ethnic Spanish person who has Spanish citizenship but is ethnically ” Jewish”. So all those pogroms expulsions and worse arguably should be seen in a different light as they were visited on “foreigners” who were of a different race not a different religion/culture. You were categorised via your saliva as a “European Jew” without specifics to a country which suggests that the 23andme may be a bit vague. How far back generation wise does your 23andme test apply.?Does it categorise the “Jewish ethnicity” as a form of “Semitic” ethnicity. If it does then then obviously there are untold millions of people in the world including the native Palestinians who have lived in Palestine since time immemorial who are of the same ethnicity as those Semites who conquered and settled the sections of Palestine which were known briefly as Judea and Samaria.The only difference being ( yes full circle) they did not invent or practice the cult of Judaism. All of them BTW( sic ) having a right of return via their Semitic ethnicity to Palestine.

    Who knows despite my non ethnic based and now lapsed Catholicism a 23and me test might give me the right to a nice little government subsidised apartment built on land stolen from the non – ethnic natives in the West Bank ?

    And all of the above before we get into the pesky problem of matriarchal and patriarchal lines.

    What what a tangled web etc when first we practice to be God`s chosen.

    • Boris
      April 23, 2018, 11:30 am

      … what a tangled web etc when first we practice to be God`s chosen.

      Yes, it looks like you totally unable to understand logical arguments as you are blinded by antisemitism, and answering you is a waste of time.

      Just one last note.

      As far as being god chosen, I am an atheist, I don’t believe in supernatural. However, I understand that religious Jews believe that Mr. God had asked other nations to serve him, they had refused, and Jews were the last ones to be asked and to accept. I guess it is an honor, but also a heavy burden.

      The funny part is that this sentence with which you chose to finish you comment suggest that the basis for your antisemitism is plain envy. Your Catholic upbringing and religious convictions are showing…

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 2:47 pm

        ” that the basis for your antisemitism is plain envy.”

        “Boris”, if you started enumerating the reasons for people to be envious of Jews, the Moderators couldn’t do a thing about it!

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 3:15 pm

        the Moderators couldn’t do a thing about it

        Had I asked you to do anything about it?

        Plus, I did not enumerate reasons for people to be envious of Jews, but that the envy is their reason for antisemitism, like the case with our friend Oss.

        Moo, you losing your edge, girl!

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 3:19 pm

        “Moo, you losing your edge, girl!”

        You just wait til this year’s antlers grow in! I’ll show you.

      • Jethro
        April 23, 2018, 3:41 pm

        @Boris.

        Why would anyone be envious of getting pogrommed, expelled or massacred every 70-100 years? Even Jews think that’s a negative, right?

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 4:09 pm

        @Jethro

        Well, apparently in Ossinev’s case he had brought up the issue of God’s chosen people to the discussion. Apparently, he wants to be one …

        However, for a more broad and detailed explanation – google it.

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 4:11 pm

        I’ll show you.

        You’ll show me yours, I’ll show you mine, girl.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 5:49 pm

        “You’ll show me yours, I’ll show you mine, girl.”

        “Boris” your wit and wisdom are dominating this thread.
        And I asked for reasons to envy Jews, as if you don’t make them obvious enough.

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 6:27 pm

        … your wit and wisdom are dominating this thread.

        Yep, I am giving you good run for your money.

  24. amigo
    April 23, 2018, 2:21 pm

    “As far as being god chosen, I am an atheist, I don’t believe in supernatural.”Borissimo

    Ok until !!

    “However, I understand that religious Jews believe that Mr. God had asked other nations to serve him, ” Borrissimo

    I get it .You don,t believe in the supernatural but you do believe in the supernatural that someone else believes in.So you are not an Atheist.

    “However, I understand that religious Jews believe that Mr. God had asked other nations to serve him, they had refused, and Jews were the last ones to be asked and to accept.”Borrissimo

    See even Mr God is an antisemite –making the Jews wait until last.

    “I guess it is an honor, but also a heavy burden.”Borrissimo

    Only half of that is true.

    • Boris
      April 23, 2018, 2:43 pm

      I get it .You don,t believe in the supernatural but you do believe in the supernatural that someone else believes in.So you are not an Atheist.

      ?

      So, if I am aware of other people’s beliefs, this make me a believer???

      Why are there so many morons imbeciles commenting here?

      • echinococcus
        April 23, 2018, 5:30 pm

        Tovarishch Boris,

        Speaking of imbecility, am I correct in assuming that you reject any religion, you are obviously not biologically Hebrew –the best that can be said is that you have Turco-Slavic heritage not to mention incidental admixtures, none of them probably Hebraic– and you still insist in being an extreme, Blut-und-Boden Hebrew nationalist?

        Very intelligent, that.

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 6:24 pm

        Oh, amigo is getting a friendly help from echinococcus moronus gradiosus!

        He is making a scientific discovery of a connection between one’s religious beliefs and that person’s biology.

        Fascinating!!!

        I would suggest another theory – in the realm of physical science – that morons attraction to each other is stronger than their gravitation force.

      • Mooser
        April 23, 2018, 6:40 pm

        Wow, “Boris”, you’ve really got that “stakeout” thing mastered.

      • Boris
        April 23, 2018, 11:05 pm

        Damn auto-correct!!!

      • Mooser
        April 24, 2018, 12:26 pm

        “Damn auto-correct!!!”

        Don’t try to shift the blame. You are obviously suffering from “obsessive combative disorder.”

  25. amigo
    April 23, 2018, 7:08 pm

    “He is making a scientific discovery of a connection between one’s religious beliefs and that person’s biology.”borissimo.

    No he is not .That has already been discovered .

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140117153635.htm

    Take some time off from insulting others comrade and use it to educate yourself.

    • Boris
      April 23, 2018, 11:04 pm

      So, you are claiming that there is a nation of atheists?

  26. Nathan
    April 23, 2018, 8:28 pm

    Jonathan Ofir – No one celebrates Yom ha-Atzmaut as a religious holiday. The use of the traditional Hebrew calendar is not at all an indication of attaching religious significance to an event. The Hebrew calendar is just a calendar (it keeps time reasonably well).

    But let’s assume that you are right, and there are Jews who relate to Israel’s Independence Day as a religious event. So what? What do you care about someone’s religious feelings?

    However, the really silly aspect of your article is the call for “dismantling” the idea of Jewish nationhood. “Nationhood” is an abstract concept. It exists in the minds of people. One thinks that there is a Jewish nation, so in that individual’s mind the Jewish nation exists. Identity is a very complicated issue. There are no rules or definitions. Edwin Montagu thought that there is no Jewish nation (which is really very interesting), but others have a different view. When one grows up, one learns to accept and respect the right of others to have their own personal and collective identity.

    Perhaps, what you want to say is that the State of Israel should be dismantled. If so, you should just say so. There’s no point in beating around the bush, telling us about keeping time with the Hebrew calendar or about marking Nakba Day. It would be interesting to hear how you imagine dismantling a state. I don’t think it’s a realistic ambition, so being obsessed with the demise of Israel is about as useful as churning water or quoting Edwin Montagu.

    • RoHa
      April 24, 2018, 3:05 am

      “One thinks that there is a Jewish nation, so in that individual’s mind the Jewish nation exists.”

      But not in reality.

      ” Edwin Montagu thought that there is no Jewish nation…, but others have a different view. ”

      And Montagu is right and those others are wrong.

      “When one grows up, one learns to accept and respect the right of others to have their own personal and collective identity.”

      We allow people to tell themselves silly stories about themselves, but we are not obliged to “respect” those stories.

      And when they use the stories as justification for wrongdoing, we are obliged to condemn both the wrongdoing and the stories.

  27. Ossinev
    April 24, 2018, 7:46 am

    @Boris
    For some reason my response to your last comment did not appear on this thread.
    Basically I was trying to reassure you. I personally don`t think that you are an imbecile or a moron. I just think that you are a troubled and confused soul and rather like a child who is not getting his way in arguments you have tended to lash out by way of name calling. A little bit disappointed though that you have resorted to the default major yawn inducing smear – yes the classic “anti – Semitic “. In my case you have flavoured it a bit by suggesting that I actually envy Jews. Now that is a novel twist which may give a little bit more shelf life to the tedious standard whinge as in they are all “Anti – Semites”. Why because they envy “Jews”. Hasbara Central might well adopt this one as a suitable accompaniment to the “whataboutery” refrain. At the end of the day it`s all about Zio window dressing after all.

    I will concede that my Catholic upbringing may well have impacted on my views with regards to the I/P conflict ie it has taught me to despise those who murder,torture and brutalise innocent people whose lands they have stolen.

    Going back to the reassurance I think that you should take a few deep breaths ,reflect and recalibrate. Resorting to gratuitous name calling when you are called to account in a discussion is IMHO a sure sign of stress and more importantly an indication unwillingness to accept facts.

  28. Boris
    April 24, 2018, 6:04 pm

    @Ossinev

    When I see an illogical comment – I call spade a spade.

    The record is clear – I have never called you an idiot or something similar.

    “God chosen people” is a typical antisemitic canard when it is used in a negative context – like in your comment.

    As for the relationship between envy and antisemitism – google it, there is plenty of material to cover it.

    In this latest comment you are trying the same tired anti-Israel mantra – “murder, torture, etc.”. It is total b/s.

    We obviously have a disagreement on that and I don’t think we will reach an agreement, at least not very quickly. And – full disclaimer – I have an open mind and I do read intelligent postings in Mondo and find them interesting.

    However, I don’t have time to write long essays. Plus, my “autocorrect” is not always correct.

    That’s why in such conversations I try to stick to the topic at hand. In this one it is Jewish nation.

    So, let me make it simple.

    You asked me a question – I had responded.

    Then I asked you a question – where is your response?

    • Mooser
      April 24, 2018, 8:34 pm

      “That’s why in such conversations I try to stick to the topic at hand. In this one it is Jewish nation.” the ineffable “Boris”

      Okay, the topic is “the Jewish nation”. I’m a Jew. Can the “Jewish nation” tax me? Nope. Make me give so much as a penny to Zionism? Nope.

      Can the “Jewish nation” draft me? No. Can it force me to do the unpleasant or illegal tasks a colonial project requires? No.

      Can the “Jewish nation” exert any power over Jews at all? Nope. That’s some “nation”, “Boris”. A ‘please-and-thank-you nation’.

      Come back and tell us about a “Jewish nation” when this “nation” actually has some power over Jews. Til then it’s a joke. Oh BTW, would you like to tell us who, besides you recognizes this world-wide “Jewish nation”?

      • Boris
        April 25, 2018, 7:02 am

        Mu-mu,

        You are at your usual game of switching the subject.

        I asked Ossinev specific question and am waiting for his response. So, FO ( ask him for translation).

  29. Boris
    April 25, 2018, 8:40 am

    @The Horny One

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/are-jews-a-nation-or-a-religion

    etc.

    Membership is this nation is not voluntary (you are born into it). Participation is.

    My problem with your kind is that you are actually working AGAINST your own people.

    Unfortunately, it is nothing new – for example, see the description of the wicked son from the Passover haggadah.

    History has many examples as well. The same history also shows that you will fail.

    • eljay
      April 25, 2018, 9:03 am

      || Boris: … Membership is this nation is not voluntary … ||

      Of course it’s voluntary. A person can choose to be Jewish or not to be Jewish.

      Jewish is a religion-based identity and not some other-worldly force or supernatural brand.

      There’s no shame in being an ordinary human being.

    • YoniFalic
      April 25, 2018, 10:29 am

      In theory it was hard to change one’s nation or nationality in the USSR (there was neither Soviet nation nor Soviet nationality), but in reality if one broke with Jewish identity in every way, shape, and form, it appears to have been reasonably straightforward.

      I became acquainted with a non-Jewish mathematician from Moscow State University. He asserted that there were officially only two Jews in the math department, but of the non-Jews in the math department, all except him and another department member had Jewish ancestry.

      • Boris
        April 25, 2018, 10:57 am

        There was a concept of “Soviet people” – a new identity that was created and cultivated. It was more than citizenship – more like a new historical entity (Palestinians, anyone?). Of course, it failed.

        Soviet citizens had internal passports since 1935. In there was an infamous fifth paragraph – nationality. I had mine. My nationality was a Jew.

        The nationality was determined at age 16 by the nationality of parents. Both of my parents are Jews.

        If parents had different nationality, then an applicant for the passport could chose either one. Since Jews were heavily discriminated against, many Jews tried to change this paragraph – sometimes with bribes – or in cases of mixed marriages by choosing the nationality of a non-Jewish spouse.

        I knew a girl whose passport claimed she was Russian – the only Russian in her family was her maternal great-grandfather. Everybody else was Jewish. She was quite a catch!

      • Jethro
        April 25, 2018, 12:01 pm

        @ Boris

        Since Jews were heavily discriminated against, many Jews tried to change this paragraph – sometimes with bribes – or in cases of mixed marriages by choosing the nationality of a non-Jewish spouse.

        Sounds like you resented this system of “nationality.”

      • Boris
        April 25, 2018, 12:33 pm

        Sounds like you resented this system of “nationality.”

        Yes. And most of the Jews did.

        As the matter of fact, one of the reasons why Jews had embraced the Bolshevik revolution was because they were promised that there would be no nationalities. The percentage of ethnic Jews among revolutionaries is well documented. And they all had abandoned their Jewishness or any connection to the Jewish nation. Jewish masses had supported Communists and many Jews were in the party and in the ruling elite.

        And then Stalin came up with the passports in 1935. Then, of course, there was a resurgence of antisemitism and the Holocaust. So, the Jews had to realize that the world will treat them badly no matter what, and that they cannot hide behind fake identities.

        We, the Jews, have to use radical acceptance that being Jewish is in our blood, and that there will always be antisemites who will try to destroy us.

        So, Jethro, I am just stating obvious facts that liberal mind of many contributing to this board cannot comprehend.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 12:53 pm

        “The percentage of ethnic Jews among revolutionaries is well documented. And they all had abandoned their Jewishness or any connection to the Jewish nation.”

        Really, “Boris”, any man, even a Communist, should be allowed to change into a clean pair of genes.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 1:25 pm

        “He asserted that there were officially only two Jews in the math department, but of the non-Jews in the math department, all except him and another department member had Jewish ancestry.”

        And frankly, he wasn’t that sure about the other department member having no Jewish ancestry, either. He was simply too good of a mathematician.

      • gamal
        April 25, 2018, 1:48 pm

        “should be allowed to change into a clean pair of genes”

        Just make sure they’re Levites

      • Boris
        April 25, 2018, 3:13 pm

        … any man, even a Communist, should be allowed to change into a clean pair of genes.

        You would if you could, but you can’t. Boy, you dream about it, but it is an impossible dream.

        And it seems to be a big problem for you, my little Mooserchik.

        I pity you…

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 5:00 pm

        ” Boy, you dream about it, but it is an impossible dream.”

        Yes, sometimes I dream about living some place where Jews aren’t all registered, and their Jewish identity is none of the state’s business.

        Is there such a place, “Boris”?

      • Jethro
        April 25, 2018, 5:58 pm

        @ Boris.

        As the matter of fact, one of the reasons why Jews had embraced the Bolshevik revolution was because they were promised that there would be no nationalities.

        And do you think the Jews are the only people in the world who might feel that way? Do you support the system of nationalities in Israel?

      • RoHa
        April 26, 2018, 12:06 am

        Mooser,

        He was simply too good a mathematician.

        No “of”.

      • Mooser
        April 28, 2018, 7:11 pm

        “but of the non-Jews in the math department, all except him and another department member had Jewish ancestry.”

        Which became very important to them when Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union.

  30. Ossinev
    April 25, 2018, 9:44 am

    @Boris
    “The record is clear – I have never called you an idiot or something similar”
    like as in:
    “Why are there so many morons imbeciles commenting here?” Your words.

    Who exactly were you referring to then apart from Amigo of course. Best to make the record very very clear methinks. Perhaps a specific list would do the trick ? I am assuming of course that you still think that I am”blinded by Anti-Semitism”. I have to say if it helps that I would think that anyone who is “blinded by Anti – Semitism” can reasonably be characterised as an idiot. As for the alleged ” envy ” factor = LOL desperate straw to clutch
    As for “God chosen people” is a typical antisemitic canard when it is used in a negative context – like in your comment.Have listen to the words of a truly honorable Israeli Jew:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGO3eBxQX7Q

    Tell me what you think afterwards. Please don`t say that Gideon is a moron or an imbecile or that he is “blinded by anti – Semitism”.

    • Boris
      April 25, 2018, 10:35 am

      1. Since you asked – imbeciles on my list: amigo, eljay, echinococcus, maglawan. It will be totally moronic, but I expect they will respond to this comment.

      2. Gideon Levy is a known lefty propagandist. The linked video is 21 minutes long. Where exactly is he mentioning the “chosen people”? I would like to hear the context. However, it is a mute point. He is a Jew. Just like blacks can use the word “nigger”, Jews can be a bit sarcastic about our choosiness. And to be clear – only religious Jews believe that. As you know, most Zionists are secular (except for the religious Zionists, of course).

      Now, if you don’t answer my question (April 23, 2018, 12:11 am), it will be the proof that you have lost the argument that Jewishness is in the genes and not in the religious convictions.

      • eljay
        April 25, 2018, 11:12 am

        || Boris: 1. Since you asked – imbeciles on my list: amigo, eljay, echinococcus, maglawan. It will be totally moronic, but I expect they will respond to this comment. … ||

        I wouldn’t want to disappoint you, girl.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 12:49 pm

        “Jewishness is in the genes and not in the religious convictions.”

        Some Jews are real, authentic, Hittite Prince Jews, but the majority of Jews are just the “descendants of religious converts”.

        So for God’s sake, be careful who you marry! Don’t burden your kids with the genes of converts!

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 5:06 pm

        ” Jews can be a bit sarcastic about our choosiness”

        You are right, just look at the old joke about the hotel food; “it tastes like poison, and the portions are so small!”

      • RoHa
        April 25, 2018, 6:08 pm

        “Gideon Levy is a known lefty propagandist. ”

        But he might still be right about some things. Even one’s political opponents can occasionally fail to be wrong.

        ” However, it is a mute point. ”

        It is a moot point.

    • Boris
      April 25, 2018, 10:59 am

      Also, as far as some Jews being antisemitic, who do you think runs this website?

      • echinococcus
        April 25, 2018, 12:21 pm

        Tovarishch Boris,

        If you really want to know, the site is run by a guy who is trying desperately to clean the reputation of a “Jewish” tribe which he is unable to leave. Not only he doesn’t have anything against it, he continues to call the tribe “my people” even though he has no religion.

        It would be crazy to expect you to understand such a simple statement –i know you won’t prove me wrong.

      • Mooser
        April 25, 2018, 12:56 pm

        “Also, as far as some Jews being antisemitic, who do you think runs this website?”

        Oh “Hophmi” told us all about Phil Weiss, and his family.

        You remember “Hophmi”, don’t you? He used to comment here a lot, but seems to have ‘fallen away’.

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