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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Warning. Thread-jack in progress.
This is all misdirection and I am surprised how many are falling for this sleight of hand.
The IDF does not have the punch to knock out the Iran nuclear program.
They *hope* that the USAF would do it for them, but have no intention of launching an attack themselves.
Alas, the US military and intelligence community does not want another war. This makes it hard to get any momentum in Washington.
All this talk about war has the happy side effect of knocking the Palestinians out of the media picture.
The US Govt is stuck and can't end military aid. If they do, there goes the treaty with Israel.
Do not feed the troll.
The Pentagon does *not* want a war with Iran.
I suspect Ross and Panetta had an arm wrestle and Ross lost, decisively.
Much more likely that he got into an arm wrestle with the Pentagon over bombing Iran, and lost.
The USA could easily have delayed de-funding by noticing that the Palestinians haven't quite joined yet. They need to submit an instrument of ratification. Obtaining this instrument will be difficult given the broken nature of the Palestinian Legislative Council (or whatever it is called).
I am surprised to agree with Hophmi.
It is a cheap shot that is below the quality of this blog.
Mr. Witty.
I recognize all the words in your post above.
Alas, I don't understand what you are trying to say.
Is your argument: "people of good faith can work things out"?
I would agree to this point of view, given some basic assumptions of "good faith". The primary assumption is that we proceed on the basis of justice and equal human and civil rights for everyone concerned.
It is already a single state.
A good way to get 80% good relations is to give universal human and civil rights.
Enfranchise everyone between river and sea. One person, one vote.
The rest can be determined on the floor of the Knesset.
The draft is a form of involuntary servitude.
Surely there is a better way of binding our elites to the perils of our society without enslaving their children!
RMS is a bit of a crank.
He is also the founder of the Free Software movement and GNU software is an integral part of every Linux distribution.
Without his compiler and utilities it seems unlikely that Linux would have done as well. Not the father of the Linux kernel certainly, but perhaps the grandfather of the Linux movement.
Also, his GPL license is a revolutionary intellectual legal achievement. Turning copyright into copyleft!
The most likely reason for the attack on the Liberty was that after the stunning success Israel had in Egypt, they were about to rush many of their tanks formations north towards Syria.
rush their troops too.
Mortars tend to be employed as area suppression weapons. They also have high circular error. Thus you can have accurate fire that does not land precisely at the mathematical targeting point. This is a feature of mortars and not a bug.
Thus they are the wrong weapon to use if you care about dropping rounds in *exactly* the correct spot. Every military commander knows this.
The conclusion is inescapable: They didn't care much about where the rounds landed.
One person, one vote.
That part isn't negotiable,
it is a matter of fundamental human rights.
A LGBT state may very well be short-lived.
However, that is irrelevant for the discussion at hand.
And in fact, if it is relevant, then a Jewish state would (and does) suffer from any of the same problems limiting the lifespan of a LGBT state. After all, there is no guarantee that a child of a Jewish person will also be Jewish.
I am confused.
If being a historically persecuted group qualifies you for a state, then why would not gays and lesbians also qualify?
If you replace "jew" with "LGBT" in Jereme Slaters discussion, would it not justify the creation of a homeland for gays and lesbians (perhaps somewhere in California?) If not, why not?
Again, how many times has Phil made an insulting headline referring to Mitt Romney, Haley Barbour or Mike Huckabee using even a mild form of sexual innuendo?
I am not defending any of those politicians. I am simply pointing out my perception that Phil is treating her less respectfully because of her sex.
Culturally, a reference to the "the birds and bees" is a reference to educating young people into the details of sexual congress. Cole Porter used that reference, and so did Phil. Hence, he is (gratuitously) tying a reference to sexual congress to a politician.
I think that the headline is a sexist cheap shot.
How many times have you offered a sexually charged insult to a male politician in one of your headlines?
Gwynne Dyer has an interesting take on the Arab Revolution.
I agree with Phil.
One person, one vote.
That is how it will end, after much tears and blood.
One person, one vote.
Anyone notice how they drew the good captain's map of Israel?
No lines for the Golan and a cleverly arranged star over the vital bits.
The self destruct mostly destroys the aerodynamics of the round.
The pellet is nowhere near powereful enough to vaporize the round.
There is still a lot of hot shrapnel in the air.
With a burnout of 5 seconds and a velocity of a bit more than 1 km per second, you will still get a lot of crap falling within 5 km of the intercept point.
With a 3 oz projectile and, say, 1000 rounds kicked into the air (per gun (15-20 seconds of firing), that is about 85 kilos of metal. 5 guns make about 400 kilos. Someone is *bound* to get hurt.
It would be far more dangerous than a single sugar-fueled rocket.
Anyone know what the trajectory of a Kassam is? Is it relatively flat, or high angle?
Those guns kick an awful lot of hot metal into the air.
When following an incoming rocket, that metal will land *all* over the place.
I would not be surprised if the conclusion was that more damage (to Israel, who cares about Gaza) would inevitably be done by the defense system than a few crude rockets would. Furthermore, the IDF would get the blame for any damage caused, rather than being able to blame Hamas.
I agree that the shot at Mr. Witty was inappropriate.
There really is no need to indulge in ad-hominem attacks while making system related announcements. I found it quite jarring.
Israel already controls everything between river and sea.
Simply enfranchise everyone who lives there.
The hope is equality of civil and human rights for everyone.
A pluralistic democracy is a good end state as it gives people the most freedom to express themselves with the least imposition on others.
One person, one vote for everyone between river and sea is the best way to get there.
BTW, Netanyahu is *not* head of state, he is head of government.
Some really old geezer is currently head of state in Israel.
Lol. Wut?
What I find amusing is that the only government that is conducting serious negotiations with Hamas is the Israeli government itself.
It is equally amusing to note that Hamas is the *only* Palestinian group with which the Israeli government is seriously negotiating.
I believe that the proposed oath is only for new *non-jewish* immigrants.
Given that the non-democratic one state solution already exists, I agree that you will need consent of the governed to establish and maintain a democratic one state solution.
This involves convincing those with the vote that the disenfranchised people are human beings entitled to civic and human rights.
Alas, there are many in Israel who don't even think about the problem. You can't change someone's mind until you get their attention.
This is where BDS is a valuable tool. It is used to gain peoples attention.
One attention is focused, then persuasion can be applied.
I am so confused.
Isn't the USA the superpower and Israel the client state?
One Person, One Vote.
Individual rights trump collective rights, anytime, every time.
Otherwise, you end up with a lot of people getting hurt as "tribes" jockey for position.
Remediation starts with:
"One person, one vote".
One Person, One vote.
Give everyone the franchise between river and sea and then argue about the details in the Knesset.
Like it or not, the occupied territories are governed by the laws of armed conflict (i.e. Geneva Conventions to which Israel is a signatory).
Israel presently and in the past has failed to abide by these laws.
Warning that Israel might actually start playing by those laws would not be much of a threat to the occupied Palestinians.
War zones can and do have "protected persons" i.e. civilians.
The Geneva Conventions have rules for how they should be treated.
Given that a person is a combatant in a zone of armed conflict, it is considered lawful for the other side to kill them. Killing them would be considered an "ambush" if they were given no opportunity to shoot back.
It would not be "execution".
Of course, if they were taken prisoner before being killed, then the situation changes and then killing them would be properly considered executions.
I won't argue this point.
My point was, however, to stress that an armed settler is not considered a "protected person" (i.e. civilian).
If you wander around with a weapon in occupied territory, then you would lawfully be considered a combatant.
Armed settlers are classed as non-uniformed combatants under the laws of war.
If there was weapon in that car, an argument could be made that it was a legitimate target.
However, if they were not armed, then I believe that it would be a war crime.
Gershom Gorenberg, in his latest article mentions that at least some young Palestinians are referring to the Palestinian Police as "Yahud" (i.e. jew).
That has got to hurt.
One Person, One Vote.
Argue about everything else inside the Knesset.
Submachinegun ammo is often the same as pistol ammo (e.g. 9mm)
Submachineguns are often favored in close quarter fighting (such as urban warfare) where a longer weapon such as an M16 would be clumsy.
One person, One vote.
Enfranchise everyone between river and sea.
Then, in a forum where everyone's vote counts (eg. the newly enlarged Knesset) they can decide on one state versus two.
This seems the only fair way to do it while maintaining universal human rights.
After everyone between river and sea gets the vote, they will be able to settle their problems on the floor of the Knesset.
This will be a big boost to economic development.
A better way to deal with Iran is to fully engage with it.
Trade, exchanges and every other sort of dealing.
Welcome them fully into the modern world and let the Mullahs keep to their medieval theology, if they can.
Richard is correct. I know several Americans who have served in the Canadian Armed Forces (and a couple Canadians who served in the American Army). I even know one dual citizen who served in both the Canadian and American armed forces.
I know several who have been to those places.
In regards to apartheid, if the shoe fits .. and Desmond Tutu would know.
One person, one vote.
It is the logical and inevitable outcome.
There already are laws in place and there is no need for a constitution.
Simply give everyone the vote and let their representatives argue it out in the Knesset.
Well, Belgium (mostly) gets along with a 60/40 split. Canada also mostely gets along, with a 80/20 split.
A 51/49 split is probably easier because shifting coalitions would mean that one group does not always end up on top.
Yes, one person, one vote for everyone between river and sea is the first step towards resolution of the problem. After that, they will have a forum (the Knesset) to discuss whether there should be one or two states (and everything else).
The right to defend oneself is inalienable.
However, attacking another country is the most serious war crime: Aggression.
In any case, Israel lacks the means and (despite what it says) motivation to attack Iran. It is pure kabuki theater.
Finally, if the IDF attacks over Iraqi airspace (the most logical route), the USAF, as protector of Iraqi airspace, is obligated to shoot them down.
Allowing communities to segregate is a dangerous precedent.
It leads to slums, ghettos and gated communities.
It doesn't lead towards civil society.
I can understand how some (most?) Israelis would be concerned to have a state for all its citizens.
One person, one vote for all between river and the sea seems like a good way to recognize everyone's fundamental humanity.
Did you get to know your finance study partner as a human?
Did you learn his family history? His village?
Or was your interaction at an, essentially, professional level?
Yes, more and more people are recognizing the requirement of equality for everyone between river and sea.
I believe that the logical outcome of Mr.Witty's argument would be to offer compensation and citizenship to everyone (including registered refugees) on the basis of one person one vote. Then everyone can live together and settle their differences in the Knesset.
I am with Witty here.
Like it or not, I am connected (bonded) to my family.
This does not imply that if my brother steals from someone, I won't call the cops on him.
I agree, everyone born between the river and the sea is indigenous to Israel. Thus everyone should get the vote and elect people to the Knesset. One person, one vote.
I note, with interest, that Mr. Witty declined to add that Hamas had closed the tunnels in "response to an urgent request from Egyptian security services following warnings of planned terror attacks in the Sinai Peninsula"
Seems like Hamas is trying to be a good neighbor.
Hamas arrests cell about to open fire on IDF
Actually, I would have thought that the primary issue of concern is the denial of fundamantal human rights. Israeli expansion, then, is merely one facet of that primary concern.
I think that "one person, one vote" is a reasonable way to create a state.
Trying to have two states with twisty borders and large dissatisfied minorities in both states seems like a recipe for trouble.
One state for all it's citizens seems the only practical way.
One person, One vote for everyone between the river and the sea.
That is a good start to the peace process.
I agree.
Once everyone between the river and the sea is given the vote then the Knesset can set up fair and just building rules in an Israel for all its citizens.
A good start to a peace plan would be to enfranchise everyone currently under Israeli rule (i.e. everything between river and sea).
One person, one vote!
Then they could argue about what to do next in the Knesset.
As I understand it, Bibi is not "head of state".
He is, rather, "head of government".
President Shimon Peres is the current Israeli head of state.
This makes a difference, protocol wise.
From Haaretz:
By a single vote, the cabinet approved Sunday the demand of Deputy Health Minister Yaakov Litzman (United Torah Judaism) to move the planned bomb-proof emergency room of Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon, after ancient burial grounds were discovered in the original site.
..
the Prime Minister's Office issued a statement saying that professional evaluations of the burial grounds will take place over the coming month, "and if it emerges that the graves do not belong to Jews, the matter will be returned to the cabinet for more discussions.
..
Actually, the British expelled the residents before they leased it to the USA.
Much tidier that way.
Now the British say they can't let the people return because of the terms of their lease.
"Israel’s security is sacrosanct."
is like "Fair and Balanced News".
If you have to repeat it all the time, you know it isn't true.
I would argue that Lebanon is a more democratic state than Israel.
Do you get that it is people who are being mowed?
Well, I suppose then you agree that currently Israel is not Israel as it sure isn't currently democratic.
Remember the rule about one person, one vote in democracies?
Good thing the disaster in Haiti is over. The IDF can go home now.
I think enfranchising everyone between the river and the sea is a valid approach. One person, one vote.
Then, if the people(s) wish to partition themselves (or do some sort of federal approach, or whatever) they can debate it in the Kneseet and pass a bill.
Swinging a fist is good exercise and permissible until you hit someone else's nose.
When that happens, it is bad and quite possibly a crime.
The same goes for Zionism. Kind Zionism in Israel is a contradiction in terms.
Sorry, there is no name of Jesus on the gun.
And who told you that Jesus was a pacifist?
Besides it is an abbreviated biblical reference as part of the serial number.
It took people several years to figure it out.
Only people who believe in magic should be offended about having "2-LK-14" on their equipment.
This whole thing is completely ridiculous.
It's ok for the government to put "In God we trust" on money but not ok for a private manufacturer to put "18-PS-37" on equipment it sells to the government!
Actually, far better to give one man, one vote now.
It will be less disruptive now (and a good oportunity to build an inclusive political structure).
It will be tougher later, when the numbers are not so even.
One man, one vote.
Everyone under Israeli rule should get the franchise.
Then you can argue out the details in the Knesset.
Actually, I suggest that someone keep a list of when each country pulls its aid teams.
It might be amusing to look at in a couple of months.
Good suggestion Mr. Witty, one man, one vote.
An excellent a recipe for a solution. Give everyone under Israel rule the franchise and let them fine tune the rest in the Knesset.
Actually, Yonira, most of the world's colonial democracies (USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, etc.) eventually got around to enfranchising their occupied people (i.e. aboriginals) Israel can do it to.
It all starts with one man, one vote.
Once every adult under Israeli rule has the franchise,
you can start to find a solution.
Until that happens, we just have constant games of oppression vs resistance.
I think one man, one vote is the most appropriate organizing principle in this context.
One man, one vote.
Everyone under Israeli rule gets the franchise.
It is the only sustainable approach.
One man, one vote.
It worked in the USA. It worked in South Africa.
It can work in Israel.
If people still want two states then they can pass a law dividing Israel in the Knesset, after everyone is enfranchised.
One man, one vote.
Then argue out the details after the election.
Otherwise, the oppression will simply continue.
I believe that one man, one vote accomplishes the goal of mutual respect and equality. Everything else can be argued out in the Knesset (or whatever they decide to rename it)
I think that you will find that there is great variability within the jewish ethnic group inside Israel. They are by no means a monolithic ethnic bloc.
Turkey is an excellent example of how a mainly muslim country can also be a democracy. I am confident that a "one man, one vote" system in Israel would work itself out.
I would not expect there to be a need for Palestinian Israelis and Jewish Israelis to fight shoulder to shoulder against Iran. After all, Iran is far away and tends not to be militarily agressive. Still, if by some strange quirk of history, Iran really did threaten a single state Palestine-Israel, then I would *certainly* expect all citizens to shoulder part of the burden.
Actually, simply giving "one man, one vote" would launch the whole single state processs. When the election results came in and people started vying to set up a government you would see a lot of horse trading.
Of course, many of the fringe groups would be marginalized as they would no longer hold the balance of power.
Actually, the american military has done more to foster racial integration than any other institution I can think of. Furthermore, I point you to the civil war and suggest that there is good reason why the National Guard is firmly under the thumb of the federal government.
I agree. You need a national identity to keep the federation going.
The government and particularly the military needs to be a national institution.
Otherwise you are just organizing yourself for a subsequent civil war.
Thus, a truly integrated military is key.
One man, One vote.
It worked in the USA. It worked in South Africa.
It can work in Israel.
Actually, WP makes for a poor illuminant because of the thick clouds of white smoke it releases. WP's primary role is as an obscurant. I.e. it provides a smoke screen. Smoke screens are often employed during daylight hours.
However, the photographs I have seen do not reveal an effective smoke screen. Rather it seems that only a few WP rounds were fired. Thus suggests that, in fact, the purpose was to harrass the target and potentially set something on fire.
Actually, Israel does provide a fair amount of intelligence information to the U.S.A.
Some of it is even true.
I enjoyed the article.
Furthermore, the holocaust/zionism/legitmacy of Israel are all bound up into a collection of interrelated myths
This makes it entirely appropriate for this forum.
Philip,
I would appreciate you labeling links that are behind paywalls as "subscription required", or something similar.
Large numbers of deaths can lead to large perceptions.
I assume everyone who was killed had relatives to remember them.
A few deaths in an extended family will have a powerful perceptual influence on the rest of the family.
I am against all forms of involuntary servitude.
Thus, I am against the draft.
Hmm, I think a non anti-Zionist pro-civilist is an oxymoron.
Zionism, being a form of nationalism, could not sit comfortably beside a non-nationalist position.
Small scale population pluralities do not make for a rational boundary.
How do you divide things like water?
How do you get anywhere when every time you change neighborhoods you change countries?
In revolutionary France, speaking Parisian gutter slang increased your lifespan. Quebec wasn't much affected by the terror, thus the French spoken there tends towards pre-revolutionary French.
Has anyone noticed that a number of folks are echoing Goldstone's request that both the Israeli government and the Hamas government should conduct an independent investigation?
Doesn't this put Hamas at the same level as Israel (i.e. they are both legitimate governments) Is this the backdoor to international recognition?
"tell his people the truth, that with the continuation of settlement activities, the two-state solution is no longer an option,"
I suppose that implies Abbas has not been telling the truth to his people lately.
Adam,
You forgot to make the tasteofapear blog a clickable link.