Total number of comments: 157 (since 2011-11-07 14:42:58)
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What if "going all in" results in the same stalemate at present.
What would Israel and the US do if all that would be accomplished is another 1,000 murdered Gazans and hundreds of slain IDF soldiers. Not counting the bombardment of civilians, all the ordnance Israel has thrown against HAMAS has failed to stop the rockets or dented their will and capacity to resist.
The American, republican system of politics & governance is geared to the squeaky wheel. American Muslims & Arabs are a recent mix of immigrants who had at first preferred keeping a low profile politically while earning & making a good life was the way to go. 9-11 and its immediate aftermath taught them that was a bad idea.
Today they are fully engaged in US civil society and political activism, learning and making common cause with other established minorities & civil liberties organizations, like JVP for instance. For decades Zionists had a free road with no opposition and got all the grease, but now there is a youngster making noise and you better believe those in power are paying attention.
The Israelis have accomplished what they had sought to destroy, Palestinian unity. The oppressed either side of the green line are learning they don't need the US, fellow Arabs or the world to liberate them, they merely need themselves. HAMAS, by refusing to go quietly into the night, like a Palestinian David against an Israeli Goliath is indeed a turning point in the I/P conflict.
>>>I think Israel will collapse before relevant change happens in the US<<<
There is nothing more Byzantine and inscrutable than American politics.
What you think may very likely be what sits at the center and purpose of American policy in the Middle East, because the 'collapse' of Israel would solve a considerable chunk of the headaches the US experiences domestically and in the region.
>>>An ability on the part of the Hamas/IJ fighters to inflict casualties on the IDF would raise the public image of the Palestinians in America.<<<
Israelis and their supporters can smudge, distort and rewrite the battle fought in Shejaiya, but its they who disengaged & withdrew from the fighting leaving HAMAS still in possession of the contested places. That's going to be about as impossible to bury as Hezbollah's victory over the IDF in the 2nd Lebanon War.
HOW HAMAS WON
link to foreignaffairs.com
The more I reflect on this the more I'm becoming convinced the game is up for Israel in Gaza, and that they have suffered a tactical as well as strategic defeat no less serious than what they suffered in Lebanon II.
The Israelis have withdrawn from the fighting, though they continue with the terror bombing of civilians and hospitals. The full facts that will become known regarding this current IDF SNAFU, may likely prove that Israel is done parading through Gaza as they are done launching flying columns of armor through Lebanon.
Netanyahu’s grandstanding to the contrary, does not disqualify HAMAS fighters as an effective and competent asymmetric fighting force. It’s a deadly error to make judgments regarding HAMAS combat capabilities against the conventionally armed forces of Israel, which has led to massive underestimation of HAMAS by the Israelis.
The Israeli incursion into Shijaiyah, a Gaza suburb, is piling up scores of dead and wounded Palestinian civilians, a part of Gaza city where Israel claims its fighting HAMAS and destroying tunnels. However this may be, HAMAS has continued to launch a counter offensive of its own by invading Israeli territory by means of tunnels and killing IDF soldiers under the hostile conditions of a war fighting environment.
Despite Israeli Push in Gaza, Hamas Fighters Slip Through Tunnels
link to nytimes.com
>..."The morning clash was the first time in the current war that the militants killed soldiers inside Israel. It came just days after 13 Hamas gunmen poured from another tunnel into Israel in an attempted assault. Israeli officials framed the encounters as successes in thwarting attacks on Israel. But they were also an indication that Hamas could strike even during the invasion through a tunnel network that Israeli officials just revealed they had been studying for a year to plan a way to destroy them"...<
A PA Security Force refuses to subdue a Palestinian demonstration?
Abbas is finished.
This is how the end begins, at the sinews of civil society that's the engine and driver of the evolution of governance & policies in western societies. This is not happening for Palestinians as rapidly as some would prefer, but neither had the liberation of other oppressed peoples been achieved in a day.
No oppressor state can survive without the patronage of a great power, and the US has supported many tyrannical states only to see that support diminish and many of them fall. Marcos/Philippines, Shah/Iran, Afrikaner/S. Africa, Somoza/Nicaragua and many others.
Israelis and Zionists proclaim the world is against them, but that's a self fulfilling prophecy due exclusively to their own arrogance and aggressions. The fanatical justifications for today's mass murders is strengthening and expanding BDS and the movement for justice for Palestinians that Ellen Davidson and other activists champion in the "Vineyards of liberty" of the grand American Experiment. Israel cannot win that debate.
Targeting and killing war correspondents and journalists is not only a war crime, its a strategic blunder that would yield high negatives for Israel in spades.
Great video Dan!
This event excellently shines light on the craven, cowardice that suffuses American politics. Murphy states he would speak on the issue, but dodges the subject and than runs away from it. Its this kind of confrontation in the public square that will ultimately turn the tide, because sooner or later the Murphy's of politics are going to have to explain their support and justification for the reprehensible, why they have sold their souls to the devil for privilege and power. There are no good answers.
The fact that AIPAC and other Israeli front groups could not prevent a reversal of NBC News correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin's return to Gaza has likely prompted these threats. Whether they act on them and willfully slaughter journalists would be a very unwise move.
The Israelis are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Except for far more limited objectives, this current invasion of Gaza is not much different from the 22 day 'parade' through Gaza the IDF made in 2008/9, a war of terror against civilians. The so called vaunted Israeli war machine is steering clear of HAMAS redoubts.
Post Cast Lead after-action reports detailed the surprise IDF commanders had at the tactical competence and disciple HAMAS fighters displayed on the few occasions of actual combat. It became clear that the day's when several hundred HAMAS fighters would rally, shouting "Allahu Akbar," charging insanely into walls of steel and lead were over.
To take HAMAS out means literally taking the fight into the densest populated areas of Gaza, where HAMAS is dug in deep and prepared to fight a last stand to the death. This will be a battle like Fallujah, where heavy ordnance and fires are only useful in suppressing enemy fires, allowing maneuver elements to close the distance to where the real and decisive fighting begins, muzzle to muzzle. Urban environments make combat worse. Rubbelized urban environments are exponentially worse.
This of course means many thousands of civilian casualties, far more than the cost free, discriminate terror killings of children and non-combatants the Israelis are addicted to. Even should the Israelis allow civilian evacuation as the US did before commencing operations in Fallujah, most civilians likely can't because they have no safe place to go with the IDF rampaging and blasting its way throughout the rest of Gaza.
I believe there will be no decisive combat in Gaza simply because such combat is always casualty intensive. The Israeli public and its government have no stomach for what it will take in IDF dead and wounded to crush HAMAS and settle the issue. This failure of nerve means HAMAS will continue to survive, fighting asymmetrically, exploiting Israeli weaknesses and long term getting stronger. That I believe is the “pickle” Israel is in.
Since everything out of the mouths of politicians from that 'Hall of Mirrors' on the Potomac is written or proofed by Lobbyists, its no surprise to me that Obama parrots Zionist propaganda as if he were Netanyahu himself.
>I think he [Obama] was very naive when he made that speech.<
No way Kay! Obama is fully informed of the terror war waged by Israel against Palestinians in Gaza and the W. Bank. Its domestic politics that makes him turn a blind eye to heinous war crimes perpetrated by the Israelis. It just proves that Obama is no different from the previous two obscenities that have occupied the White House and much of the political sphere that passes for governance in the US of A.
"...The Palestinians can win. The only question is how long it will take."
Much sooner than most imagine.
"...Or maybe he’s a coward...."
All American politicians occupy the second rank of the 'greatest cowards in the universe,' just barely beating out capitalist for the top slot. The last people in all of creation who will turn against the Zionists will be those weird, little creatures who inhabit the environs of the Potomac.
This goy applauds the Rabbi, not chastens him for being late to the party.
Not to worry Woody, the teeth may be long in coming, but as sure as the sun also rises so will the teeth.
abu afak, you need to wake up, and fast. Its finally, but ever so slowly sinking into some Israeli heads (possessors of the densest brain matter in the universe) that the game is more or less up, that its only a matter of time between having some version of a Jewish home in Palestine or nothing. Of course, fanatics of all persuasions can deny and rail against the facts, but as John Adams observed: 'facts are stubborn things.'
The tragedy of 9/11 and the supreme stupidity of 19 Mar 2003 is as much an Israeli FUBAR as an American screw-up, and its been a worsening geo-political climate for both ever since. If it should prove there are no Mandela's or de Klerk's in Israel and Palestine, if Israeli intransigence and racism in the end prove as insanely stubborn as had white Rhodesians, than Israelis have no right to expect any outcome other than a Zimbabwean result, or maybe worse.
Whether out of desperation regarding the path of negotiations or a desire to provoke, whatever Liberman's motive his grand scheme has sunk like a stone. Even his number 2 in Yisrael Beytenu, Yair Shamir, has protested against striping Israeli Arabs of their citizenship. In any case Liberman's fantasy was pronounced DOA by Abbas, before it even had its chance to sink like a stone, which is still racing to the bottom.
I agree with everything you said, excepting that when "it falls apart" (and it will) it will be just as interesting as had Kerry's diplomatic mission succeeded. I believe this current effort is different from past attempts because it appears Israelis and Palestinians are viscerally and openly opposed to the SoS's proposals, whatever they are, notwithstanding the leaks and acrimony from both sides. There's no question about it, neither side likes what they are hearing.
As for Kerry, his artful dissembling in managing to say everything, but admit to nothing short of lying is why this guy was a Senator for 28 years! Considering how he publicly frames these secret negotiations, presenting himself as the only happy and cheerful face in the crowd while everyone else is anything but cheerful, I doubt that failure to accomplish anything will adversely stick to this guy.
Link to article
link to haaretz.com
Classic Zionist befuddlement that is totally oblivious to the ruin they are ardently marching towards due to a mix of ideological and theological blinkers. Contrary to what this Zionist believes BDS is a very big deal, far bigger and potentially far more destructive than the sanctions regime against Iran.
An excerpt from a Harretz analysis by Barak Ravid:
Swell of boycotts driving Israel into international isolation
“The marking of produce from the [Palestinian] territories is on hold at this stage," the European diplomat said to his Israeli interlocutor. “However, should the negotiations with the Palestinians run aground you should expect a deluge of sanctions.” The Israeli official was taken aback by the sharp words. “Aren’t the circumstances of a breakdown in negotiations relevant,” he asked. The European replied laconically, “the way things look now, you will be the losers in the blame game.”
Israel has lost the global community, and if they continue to play their hands badly with their only and last defender, they'll lose the US of A too.
If what Mr. Edwards says is true, than this statement by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations is a weak reed to lean on for sure.
The decisive moment comes about when or if the whores in the Senate actually pass the "Nuclear Weapon Free Iran Act." Obama has no alternative but to veto the legislation or see several years of secret multilateralism, hard headed diplomacy and the collapse of the sanctions regime swirl down the sewer pipe due to international angst over US faithlessness and hypocrisy.
I'll bet the majority of Senators know the score, that Israel and its lobbyists are buying & selling ropes to each other that they will hang themselves with. I'll also bet the majority of those voting for the legislation will be on their knees praying to their gods for Obama to do as he has claimed, veto an ill advised statute and save them from an agitated public their cowardice and corruption will have aroused.
I can hardly wait, straining at the leash and biting at the bit for this stooge hall show to begin.
Hagel's giving cover to Lautenberg, Levin, Feinstein, Boxer, Shumer and other Democrats, who are scrambling for excuses and need to assuage the fears of constituencies in their districts and big money Zionist campaign contributors.
Everyone with half a brain knows exactly where Hagel stands from his past views and opinions. In fact, what he says now to secure the SoS job means absolutely nothing and everyone knows that too. Zionists especially, because they know Democrats & Republicans supporting Hagel are blowing smoke up their asses.
>>>This is insanity.<<<
Not at all. Republican governance is working in Washington D.C. exactly as the founding generation founded and structured it.
>>>Any basis for this?<<<
Israeli fanaticism of a Greater Israel is hurtling towards an 'uber alles' Palestine, which in the wholeness of time is the default 'one state solution' should Israelis remain suicidally intransigent.
Its presumed by some Jewish/Americans that the US should force Israel to compromise. Under Obama the US tried and learned it will never attempt such a 'fools errand' again. If Israel as a Jewish state is to survive it must on its own accord fully embrace the 2 state end game.
If not, than Jews will again find themselves concluding the seder with "Next Year in Jerusalem."
Hagel's schmoozing is absolutely necessary to provide cover for the greatest cowards (congressmen) in the universe to confirm his nomination. Those who think nominees should say it like it is, or heaven's forbid flim flam the world's greatest flim flam artists will never see the change they ardently hope for.
Nothing is more deadly in politics than the unvarnished truth. A popular Russian saying regarding the former USSR's organ's of disinformation is stunningly apt regarding US governance in real time:
"v Pravde net izvestiy, v Izvestiyakh net pravdy."
In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth.
Platitudes change nothing. There will be no war and Zionists are doubly right to be troubled with Obama's appointments to State, Pentagon and the CIA.
I'm not at all surprised at Israeli fecklessness and weakness. Abbas should have struck last year instead of caving to senseless fear & empty threats, wasting another year to no purpose. For Palestinians sake maybe Abbas has learned to grow a pair in this affair.
Imagination? Delusional is more apt.
Its starting to sink into the immense densities between the ears of some Zionist insane asylum escapees, that they've blundered badly in their political opposition and tactics of humiliation waged against Obama.
Its also very interesting that the worst of them who have betrayed, denounced and vilified the president the most, are limbering up their lips and greasing up their bottoms with K-Y jelly in an attempt to ameliorate unwise deeds and loose mouths.
As I knew in 2010 that the maniacal Republican party could not defeat Obama on 6 November next, I'm also certain Obama's not going to be fooled by Zionists sucking up to him. He will of course continue flim flaming on the US/Israeli relationship, which fools Zionists and grieves mightily anti Zionists.
This renegade RINO's estimation for Obama has soared over the course of these past 4 years, not plummeted.
Yeah. The interviewer tried nailing him with Zionist propaganda accusing him of advising Obama to shoot down Israeli aircraft should they dare to attack Iran unilaterally.
He excoriated her mercilessly for her sloppy work and for perpetuating bald faced lies, setting the record straight, that it was his concern for America's soldiers, sailors and airmen who would get caught in the crossfire.
That's exactly what happened to the USS Liberty, attacked deliberately and willfully by perfidious Israelis. Brzezinski of course didn't go that far in his original statement and his blistering correction of the interviewer, but its interesting to watch him navigate the line he's chiseled in concrete between himself and Zionists & their mouth organs, which is why they hate him so viscerally.
"...“We went into this knowing this was probably going to happen.”
I wonder if that statement is enough to charge and prove a 'criminal intent' to commit violence?
I'll second that with a further caveat. They're the ones scared half to death, because they know full well what's coming their way if they fail in beating Obama 6 November next. Nonetheless, none of their desperate antics will work.
The American people have steadily been moving from the center/right to the center/left, and the motivator in that development is owned solely and totally by the Republican party and its far right wusses. I warned my fellow Republicans and legislators that they have got 2010 all wrong, that they are riding our party hard to ruin and the dreaded "wilderness" of political irrelevance.
I'm done trying to talk sense to fools.
He probably already has, more pointedly than most people suspect.
They can't climb down? Oh yeah they will. That's why they are making fools out of themselves with these silly demonstrations. The only people they're fooling is themselves.
No, your not getting it right. Obama's flim-flaming Bibi and is why he showboated in front of Roger's, who by the way was probably not "astonished" at all and a full partner in this 'stooge hall show,' just so he could come home and complain how bad and nasty Obama is to Israel.
The vermin can't move Obama and are now reduced to unstatesman like outbursts that actually hurts them more than it does Obama. And as for right wing enthusiasm, its going to take more than a wuss like Netanyahu to help out in that department. Its likely also a gambit for more money from high rolling Jewish donors, since what they have spent and got on hand isn't enough.
>>>I once wrote that young Jews were going to respond in fury to the bill of goods they were sold in Israel, and I wonder if Rothman is not evidence for that belief.<<<
This just isn't a counter reaction among Jewish/Americans regarding Zionism, but its also a debate within the US 'establishment' over the US special relationship with Israel that's beginning to be discussed in broad daylight, the ultimate horror of the Zionists.
Before the Iraq war even began, the deceased General Odom declared such a stupidity in the footing a 'strategic disaster' in the making, which in execution was not only unparallelled in US history, but will probably take decades for the US to recover from.
Not long after 19 March 2003, considering the complicity of Israel and its front groups in promoting the Iraq war, I believed the same could be said for Israel. As this story played and continues to play a host of unintended consequences, it will all end far more badly for Israel than it will for the US.
Hayes and his panel discussion regarding 'memorial day' and 'hero's' is quite interesting. Undeniably he and his guests had breached some non-permissible limits, which he was forced to apologize for. But the media event should be viewed as a troubling exercise by the uninitiated within the greater, national community, trying to grasp what to them is the unimaginable.
Combat veterans do not have the same perceptions as the other 99%, whether such are draftees, enlistees or gung-ho, 1049'n crazies who have yet to sober up. In their own conversations its embarrassing for them to describe themselves as hero's, regardless of the decorations earned.
There is far more significance for a troop to be called a "soldier" by another soldier, a rare distinction that merits and means more than the highest decoration or rating among all the ranks. This is unfathomable to the 99% who know not what it means to being the 'spear point' of a nations armed forces.
Raimondo has useful things to say, but on this issue he is as dead wrong as he can ever be.
American, its no revelation that the US of A has staged coups and meddled in the affairs of other nations, especially to visitors to this site. And if Truman actually said: “We don’t overthrow governments; the United States has never done this before, and we’re not going to start now.” He lied. Brazenly.
I'm sorry Pabelmont, the US has never been a democracy and the media here and everywhere else is about entertainment, not news. Quite frankly, the US media are very much in touch with the "American Street." I dislike that fact as much as you.
"In the Truth there is no news, and in the News there is no truth"
Democracies are not republics like the US or parliamentarian societies like Britain. Such a government does not have legislatures, executives or most especially judges local or supreme. There is only the 'people in assembly' in various venues that are sovereign, who rule directly and not by delegates or surrogates.
So called democracies are governing systems based exclusively on 'consent' by the governed, ruled or "slaves." This is accomplished by voting (which a democracy does not make) by peoples nearly everywhere by electing masters, lords or gods to governmental positions of power, who decide the fate of the governed or ruled for 2, 4, or 6 years, or in perpetua and removed by other means.
Seafoid, I share your perspective, but MSM news programs are not 'debate's in any sense of the term. Talking heads or media darlings on these infotainment channels may speak or participate in brief panel discussions void of content, lacking depth and scope, but such are scripted and censored affairs.
What is important is that I/P issues are at least being addressed, however minimally and cautiously, when previously they were never mentioned or aired on the MSM. On alternative media the story is different. Zionists have lost their immunity in that fora and in time will suffer the same fate across the spectrum of media.
Beinart's argument for 2 states is moot, meaning irrelevant and no longer practical due to the Israeli colonization of the W/B. Nor do I believe a 2nd term Obama is committed to 2 states as he was in his first term. My hunch is that this president will surreptitiously begin moving US policy towards a 1 state, anti apartheid, democratic outcome. After all, the fools in Jerusalem have been plotting and begging for for a 1 state, greater Israel for years. Why not give it them?
I agree 100% that Netanyahu and the Israel Lobby are getting all their "ducks in a row" and gearing up for a big fight. I just don't accept the common belief that the beating of Likudnik & neocon war drums, or nonbinding congressional resolutions will result in war with Iran as many fear.
Nor do I buy into the argument Israel will attack Iran before the US election. No one knows exactly how the Iranians or Obama for that matter, would respond to an Israeli provocation that several nanoseconds after the event would face instantaneous global outrage & condemnation. Even Shrub 43 put the screws to Israel bombing Iran, a bridge too far even for him.
Capital hill maneuvers by the Israel Lobby are warnings and shots across Obama's bows, that if he don't acquiesce, kneel and toe the Zionist line they'll destroy him. But corralling the second place 'Greatest Cowards in the Universe' (capitalists are the first) by threats and money is no great achievement, as this is a state of affairs that happens daily by enumerable lobbies and constituencies on capitol hill. I perceive these political posturings by the lobby as signs of weakness, not strength, impelled by blind visceral hatred and paralytic terror of a 2nd Obama term.
The best Netanyahu and his gang of traitors can do is whine, screech and snivel loud enough in the hopes of sabotaging the negotiations between the p5+1 group and Iran. The fact that the US and the Europeans are willing to accept the NPT as the framework for negotiations was shocking enough, but should a deal ultimately result on that understanding would be disastrous for Israeli hegemony in the region, to say nothing about the actual state of the US/Israeli special relationship.
Christian Zionists are solidly in the republican party and have been ever since the mid 1990's. None of these lunatics are voting for Obama, never have and never will. The problem for Democrats is mobilizing their base to vote. The only reason Republicans did well in the 2010 midterms is because the whining, cry baby left did not come out and support their guy.
Republicans are deeply divided over Romney, but if he's the standard bearer they will swallow their pride, rally and support the party nominee. And if he's the winner November next the culprits for that fiasco will be the Democrat left that sat on their hands, not independents or even Republicans who number fewer than Democrats.
Sin Nombre my guess is exactly the opposite. These meetings can go on for a long time with the parties expressing satisfaction and optimism that a deal can be attained between the parties. Israel stupidly taught America how to play this song and dance over the Palestinian issue, and are now in the process of getting the favor rammed up their tutu.
If you dig deep into US history you'll find that the corruptive influence of lobbying has always been a huge factor in Congressional immorality, perversion and depravity since nearly day one. Its how Congress works and always worked.
All these resolutions AIPAC has passed and attempting to pass are flawed legislative vehicles. Senators and Representatives know full well the defects in these legal documents (precedent and S/C judgments), which will render such legislation invalid in curtailing Executive branch authority should Congress press the issue.
This game can only work as cover for a President whose already fired up in attacking another country, like Bush 43. Its not going to work with a President opposed to war. The big sucker and loser in this game is AIPAC, while Congressmen are whistling 'I'm in the money' and taking their free loot to the bank.
Neutering Iran is a dead option once Iran attained the capability to enrich uranium to 20%. The p5+1 recognize this by acquiescing to the Iranian demand that the NPT is the framework for present and future negotiations.
The best outcome the west can play for is limiting Iranian enrichment to 2.5% to to 5% enrichment. Ruining Iran as you envision it as a precursor to war and regime change is not going to happen.
Approval ratings for Congress are lower than whale shit at 6%, while Obama's is higher than any politician or institution at 49%. In today's age of distrust and disillusionment that number is stellar! I believe that's a fight Obama would be calling..."bring it on!...if Congress and the Israel Lobby were that stupid to try it.
American, your dead right. Obama and practically everyone else on the planet, sans the maniacal factions of Zionists, sees no benefit to "bombing Iran" today or tomorrow.
Its amazing how much sloppy thinking pervades this issue.
All Obama has to do when push comes to shove with the bought whores on capital hill is demand they pass a 'declaration of war,' per their obligations and duties under that same constitution.
That of course will be a whole different ballgame. Though there is no anti-war movement, the US voting public is definitely war weary and sick to death of overseas adventures. By demanding a formal 'declaration of war' by Congress, Obama makes this a fight between AIPAC and the American People, not him.
The maniacal Zionists here in the US are just as stupid as their maniacal brethren in Israel. They don't foresee the traps and dead-ends they are manufacturing for themselves.
>>>the pressure to release those in isolation did not come from international monitors, rather "all of the pressure came from behind bars."<<<
Palestinians are finding the paths to victory by learning how to use the power of the weak against the strong, which isn't solely rooted in guns and suicide bombers.
Another yawner. Biden is throwing scraps and bones to placate the maniacal Zionists among the rabbis. Though one things for sure, Biden is not a master of political speech as Obama has profusely demonstrated.
Biden's 'shooting from the hip' style of rhetoric caused his boss to publicly correct any misunderstanding of US policy, that the US is:
""...absolutely not" giving Israel a green light to attack Iran..."We have said directly to the Israelis that it is important to try and resolve this in an international setting in a way that does not create major conflict in the Middle East...""
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