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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Well so as long as several billion go there every year, i don't think it matters how bad our economy gets. We seem to insistent on securing $$ to Israel even at our own detriment that I don't even see triple dip recession to the bottom of the Mariana trench changing that
Is staging sit ins and blocking the entrances to buildings not non-violence?
It is called civil dis obedience. I like how your definition of 'non violent' can extend to anything beyond "lying dead on the ground and occasionally crowing about equal rights'
You know you would fit right in line with 1950s/60s segregationists who would argue against the many incredibly important 'civil disobedience' movements there were taking place.
You are basically boiling it down as follows: "I accept our legal system which does everything possible to detach Palestinians from their land". Following that you move into some gibberish (later on) about how Israel's right to 'defense' is needed, bla bla. You HAVE to call it *defense*, because it is the way you rationalize these inhuman actions. No human could. Israeli leaders need this language, along with dehumanization through outright lies and fabrication, to psychologically placate the minds of humans committing and supporting these atrocities.
Yes, can someone please reply to my post if the full version is found? I'd love to get a hold of it
My god hophmi do you do this on purpose? All this talk about Jewish suffering, yet you miss a few points:
(a) suffering of Jews is not unique only to Jews. There can be no moral comparison to argue which suffering is worse - each group of people throughout history that have suffered have a unique experience worth listening to. But please don't speak of Jewish suffering as if only Jews experienced oppression time and time again in this world. It completely betlittles many of the other experiences that have plagued populations throughout human history
(b) What about the suffering of the Palestinians? Do you truly think Israel was created in a vacuum, void of Palestinian Arabs? That the British mandate ruled over an empty desert as opposed to a people with a rich agriculture history of orange, olives, pomegranites, etc. etc.? How can you talk on and on about suffering, but somehow have a blind eye to all the Palestinian suffering from the statistics (750k ejected refugees), to the personal face-to-face stories of the youtube videos and diaries that are featured on this website.
I would say that almost no one here is an anti Semite, and no one here wants suffering for Jewish Israelis or Palestinians (be they citizens of Israel or not). But you have to understand that [b] you must give them equal rights, afford them the same protections that Jewish citizens have, and stop oppressing them through traumatic violence and legally sanctioned discrimination. The experiences they are going through now are simply a different manifestation of Jewish suffering of the past; it can never be said to be the same, and its an entirely unique experience, but it stabs at the heart and soul of the oppressed all the same[/b].
I read his book..."Arab Voices". Its pretty good because it shows very clearly how the data, over the years, has shown very clearly what general trends exist in various Arab Countries, what people in different countries tend to value, how they see the Israeli occupation, and what drives them in life.
Amazingly enough, they come out entirely human just like us...and are overwhelmingly for a solution that still involves the existence of Israel. the problem is that zionists don't want anyone to know that - its easier to pretend that they are bloody thirsty, violent, and irrational animals. Population transfer is easier when the 'other' can be broken down into something non human.
The other interesting part is it completely shoots down all the partisans talking about what really matters in the mid east: claims that women's rights are more important, Iran is a bigger issue, etc. etc. is all FUD. Who would have that most of Saudi Males are for a much more equitable gender system and want women to drive? Did you know (oh noes, now I'm making a claim and I don't have the book around me to confirm) that a greater percent of Saudi Males are interested in these rights than Saudi Women are? And of course, Israel & Palestine ranks as a higher issue in their minds...and that is a common theme across the entire Arab World (one of the very few that you can generalize) - despite all the differences, and how Arab countries have pretty different perspectives on what matters to them, the problem of Palestine is something that tops the charts of Arabs in every single country.
Uh dude; I'm no expert, but that transnational ummah isn't another physical country, where issues of dual loyalty can appear. A person can feel a tie to a transnational spiritual community that doesn't physically exist.
DSK didn't wake up saying "I wake up every morning thinking about how I can help the spiritual plight of Jews" ....he said he wakes up every morning thinking about how to help another foreign country".
sorry for replying so late (I don't even know if you will see this)
"Anything that defangs religion, and gets it out of the public sphere, is okay by me."
Is an equally dangerous comment. Imagine what falls under the category of 'anything'
FWIW, I've pretty much fallen by the wayside as far as religion is concerned, but I've seen and experienced how it can be such a beautiful force of good in this world.
For all the problems you claim religion brings, its non existance will not remove those problems. People will find something else to twist and control a population with, and the non existance of organized religion will have little to no impact on that.
Does it matter? If any belief system can be taken and positioned to align with universal ideas of humanity that we all agree with, I'm not going to complain. Better than having a wedge, artificial or real, injected into the conversation. Makes isolating extremists easier
If you are going to spout statistics, make them relevant. There over 750,000 Palestinians that were ethnically cleansed on Israel's founding, and the oppression, humiliation and attempt to destroy their culture and memories continues daily. You can read the many stories here that put faces to those numbers and bring to life their struggles. I would think you'd be opposed to that because you understand that once you do that, people's humanity opens up and taking a stance against violently aggressive expansion is a no brainer.
It is not a simple question of percentages of land: Saudi Arabia is a big f*ing desert; So is Sudan and much of Egypt. It isn't even a question of livible/fertile land vs desert; it is a question of human rights and equality. That is something that the way you presented numbers will never real, which is EXACTLY why you presented it that way.
The way you use your numbers is also decieving - would anyone come forward and say that ONLY 1e-3 % (3000/300million) of Americans died on 9/11, so therefore 9/11 is overblown?
If you come forward with a statistic, put it in perspective, and have it make sense.
On your comments about the Ottoman - people living in the region known as Palestine [ a 'backwater' as you refer i to - shows how you are influenced by the Zionist mythos] have no sovereignty over the land they live on is an incredibly weak argument.
Here is another way to put what you just stated:
"Doesn't matter how long you've lived on a long, could be generations! But if political power doesn't reside in your land, then you have no right to say it is your land". It doesn't matter who has political control over any swath or region --> it is never an excuse to de-legitimize people who live on a land. Does this mean we can kick out every other Arab from Arab countries because they had no sovereignty either during the Ottomon era? Using your this ridiculous logic as well as paranoid tendencies you display in your responses, I'd argue that you are pushing for an Israel that truly does extend to the Euphrates.
You then descend into a 'They suck just as much as we suck' argument (hint hint: doesn't work), and end the post with your own projections of anti semitism, which no one here has stated or implied.
...maybe there was a reason Walid chose not to respond to your weak diatrabe...
I guess no matter what Israeli leaders say, do, write, whatever, some among us will never stop apologizing for them and projecting their own Western values upon them.
You all look very naive right now.
Great Q&A. Going to save this link so I can refer others to it in the future if/when the need arises
Same...I want to hear the line of reasoning.
:\ Although I think that these statements are said in the midst of what they've gone through the past several years in Gaza, and our on Govt's Double Standard towards the development and spread of the Arab Spring
OH SNAP
gahhh I wish I lived in NYC.....where I live is politically dead!
...Peaceful Assembly and Association...
...Freedom to Speak your Mind and Choose your Leaders....
*list of people who were attacked/killed for political reasons*
Do we see this in Israel?
Uh the left does not affirm that (2) is acceptable.
You should stop conflating the 'actively Jewish' part with the raping and pillaging of Palestine. And if, to you, being actively Jewish means to support the destruction of another people (not a doomsday word at all - that is quite literally what is happening. I'm assuming you at least read the HEADLINES of the articles posted here) , then there is a much bigger problem beyond your carefully crafted technical definition of anti semitism.
Official Recognition does not matter at all. Paraphrasing what Clinton hippocritically said on the topic of the ceasefire in Libya, "We look for actions, not words"
A dishonest comment - she was directly pointing to the 'Arab Revolutions' as being the messages from the 'Arab World'. Do not conflate the governments with the reactions of the people.
Well to be fair, someone might have called him out for saying nothing; at least he gave his (super predictable) perspective.
I haven't seen the movie but I'm curious. Hope they have a release somewhere around where i live. Even if it is subpar, I'd see it just to provide financial support to these projects that try to bring push forward the Palestinian Cause
A lot of this reminds me of colonial powers using the local govts to force down uprisings. Sure the technology and power of the Govt is vastly superior these days, but if everyone is uprising...what do you do, kill them all? Rule over dirt?
WJ - that may be true, but going off what I know, Mubarek's Egypt wasn't a cake walk either...but one important difference was that the latter publicly collaborated with Israel.
I would perhaps suggest that, ultimately, when people desire freedom, paying lip service to the Palestinians only serves to delay the inevitable (fall of the Govt). But keep in mind that the Palestinian issue is one of the key and forefront issues of pretty much everyone in the Arab Street (the REAL Arab street - not the rulers). So from that perspective, Assad's Syria will hopefully fall as well providing that no reforms and changes are made, it just may take more time.
"No matter how the spin makers try, there is a new Arab world in the making and it might take years but the end result will be a major tidle wave against Israel and the US, although then it wil be fully supported by their new governments. That’s democracy."
I will definitely take years, if not decades....I started to write a list of serious questions that would seek to clarify what change and the extent of it, and then I realized its simply too complex and unknown at this point.
I do think if the US does attempt 'the typical washington spin', we can relatively save our skin by atleast having cordial relations. This is partially because I don't expect everything to change within a few years. It doesn't suggest that they'll become buddy buddy from day one: People won't forget easily, but they'll forgive easily.
However, as pointed out, it would require the US to change the approach everywhere (ie: pull out of Iraq) in the Middle East, and requires that approach to be more than just words. It requires us to think that these universal values are indeed our values that we believe in rather than an 100% empty message. Some may say this is too idealistic, but I've seen enough speakers (Chas Freeman, Dr. Baird, etc) eloquently detail how its in our actual interests to do so, so I am definitely a believer in that approach.
I'm on the side that is pushing for universal human rights hophmi...so I feel pretty solid with my smile and comment about irony =)
It also isn't as if Israel is unfairly targeted with BDS tactics with no context - 40 years of occupation, never ending Orwelian peace talks, and flagrant apartheid style governance brought about BDS. Since its entirely non violent but still effective, it can't be given the same terrorist style labels or discredited so easily.
Thus, Israeli officials/propagandists are trying to highjack the actual intention of BDS and make it toothless - force it into a mold that the Israeli Govt/its extensions wants, and then criticize other forms of BDS as 'out of the accepted standard'....hence the irony at your '...unless you do it my way' comment.
This article just calls out this attempt to detooth BDS and nothing more.
Oh you don't know how ironic your words are hophmi =)
Uhhh no. It reads as follows: "Do not interfere in situations where a populace is revolting against a leadership; it is best to let them sort everything out".
bring down that wall, bring down that wall
Well Walid, truth be told, what is the point of assassinating him? He isn't leading whatever nuclear project exists (whether its nuclear power soley for energy, or nuclear power to develop a bomb), even if they had a bomb he isn't going to be using it offensively as that is suicide, and truth he told he sure as hell isn't the one with the nuclear codes at all.
I'm amazed how BY could have turned this down; From the Zionist perspective it is perfect: agree to kinda halfway languish in construction for 60 days, and get soooooo much more in return.
I also thought it was a brilliant post. I always felt that there was dishonesty with these people who claim to be opposed to settlements yet are hawks on every other imaginable position.....and the OP explained it succinctly and clearly in a way that I am not able to. Paragraph 2 is absolutely powerful ...
So the Israeli Govt doesn't fit the criteria of 1,2,3 or 4...and somehow you try to pin it on BDS.
BDS says, "They don't accept the other, don't support the law to apply to everyone equally, aren't interested in integration at all, and don't care about non nationalist parties...let us make it hurt where things truly matter: their pocket books" and you have the audacity to claim that BDS somehow works differently? "
You may ask what 'They' is....of course the Israeli Govt, the elites that run things, and a Large Segment of the Israeli Population that supports them
You are laughable Witty.
ZEeeeomg, that scares me! I don't watch TV, and don't really read anything in the mainstream media...and I had no idea that demonization is at that level. I guess living in the bubble that I live in, I don't see/notice it at all; and I'm hoping that the people I interact with already know it is bunk...however, to see absolute poppycock being paraded around as gospel is quite freaky when you realize how many households listen to the lies, take it in, and quietly start to think "we" are the enemy.
Why are these people so interested in demonizing Muslims!?
Still not fully random ;) A SRS can be biased if it doesn't consider location and time. Perhaps you can generalize these results to young American Jews who have spent time in Israel, but we can't statistically say its representative of all Zionists. Of course I'm arguing on technicality, I've read more than enough Zionist garbage to know that these views are often the baseline among Zionists....statistics isn't need there at all ;)
I find it interesting they keep suggesting 'advocacy'. What a nice, vague, term to cover up what is going on.
It is always a warm reassurance to me that 'our side' is really about revealing what is going on, and exposing the truth of the matter as opposed to hide beyond fuzzy terms, hoping that entertainment can distract what is happening.
still doesn't work
Wow...
He starts off very clear: "If I am unfamiliar with the statements, it is because they are in all likelihood fabrications."
He then traces where the false accusation PROBABLY came from.
As for the second quote, he attributes to to an Israeli Gov Website and then says no more as to the source. Why? To show that there is no real trail to find the source - unlike the prior one which has to be traced to the liar, this one has nothing, or no one that corroborates it. So he simply asks the organization, who replies "We deny ever saying that".
It turns the game of the quote into a "He said She said" match. Of course, that may be construed as not being sure if the source is accurate....
...until you reach the end where he states, "may I ask in return whether he is succumbing to the disinformation that passes for scholarship and journalism in certain quarters in the United States".
Clearly stating that both quotes are disinformation.
If you have an alternative way of reading the passage, I beg for your 'enlightenment'.
Glad I never donated to them. Sounds like they'll just provide token opposition to say "SEEEE...all sides of the Jewish voice is truly represented". We'll see what happens in the coming months.
eh meh...I'll go by the calculations as opposed to what one school thinks.
As for the story, it makes all too much sense. The anti Islamophobia is ridiculous and the situation is more ludicrous when you have groups like the ADL, which is supposed to be against this shit, just into the fray.
Luckily though, I don't actually fear for my life...I feel there are enough level headed Americans such that anti muslim hysteria can be contained. It still bothers me how it isn't condemned and they are all given their platform.
Because it gives you wiggle room as you try to sow seeds of ambiguity to strengthen any of your morally untenable positions?
As a lawyer he may take the pure legalistic approach in defining apartheid.
It is interesting how he described the situation as 'containing features of apartheid', along with the example he cited where a completely different set of laws applies to Palestinians.
Important comments.
Interestingly enough, this also probably part of how they plan to control the story that exists; if you prevent these human rights organizations from getting in, you are one step closer to dictating the message. Harass them enough, and some will give up. Over time, simply ban them from getting in.
Eventually, all you need to do is shut down major forms of mass communication to anyone affiliated with those groups, or anyone trying to get the word out.
Pretty scary....and a stark reminder that apartheid won't go easily.
Ty for the read.
IF I ever get put in the same position, I think I'll cleanse myself of all unnecessary information as I pass through. I shudder to think that they try to collect every single little piece of information on every person.
What do they plan to do with it all? The anti-BDS videos/gatherings I've seen also emphasizes collecting all the information on each person involved. What is it for? Blackmail when they find dirt? Infiltrate, knowing the inner workings of the system, and try to cause chaos? Or more nefarious purposes?
Despite the obvious fact that our own gov probably has everything about us on file, I'd be really uneasy to know that an apartheid state is actively trying to gather all information bout me for unstated purposes.
Put a smile on my face =)
Yes Witty, clearly we can blame the failure of Oslo on him. It wasn't the WestBank Colonies that sprouted all over that was the problem; it was Said's analysis that showed it was all a farce that convinced the Israelis to keep building! I guess reverse psychology doesn't work well there!
You have a way with words; you can use the big words, but still really say nothing.
He was right. Remember the Netanyahu video? That wasn't long ago.
Come come Witty. You try to make vague questions that might be answered in any given way so as to always create wiggle room for your positions, but often it falls flat on your face as people challenge it directly. I suppose it gives them practice because they have to do more work. Thanks for keeping everyone on their toes while you sloth around!
LOLOLOL....the response of the passengers on the freedom flotilla were not known in advance? Could you go around and spread any more FUD? They planned resist non violently to the IDF. They expected Israel to try to stop them in some way. Try something in broad daylight, wait till they entered Israeli or Gazan waters, pull it off in broad daylight, and pull them in to the port of ashdod.
The key point is that most of the passengers had NO idea that the response of the Israeli Govt was going to be parachuting commando style in darkness and firing arms with the intent to kill. That never entered their minds that Israeli aggression would be to treat the the way they treated Gaza, and it left 9 people dead Witty. The IDF soldiers ignored requests to save those who were mortally wounded, otherwise, the number of lost lives could have been less. The IDF then interrogated and tortured many of the activists (handcuffs so tight your hand turns black), stole their footage that they didn't return so the Israeli Govt could try to spin spin spin (look at these knives we found in the kitchen!!! it must be a weapon, and not used for meal preparation!) , stole personal belongings like criminals (what other word is suppose to be used, especially when people wallets and cellphones were never returned), and then audaciously claim they were defending themselves (the right to claim defense ALWAYS belongs to those who are attacked...especially unarmed peace activists)
Of course, if you read _any_ of the testimony of those brave souls (which is wonderfully cataloged in 'Midnight on the Mavi Marmara') you would know this. But, in the end, it would seem easier for you to make up your own fantasies...I suppose it comes from being influenced by Zionism, as that is simply one massive fantasy.
Lovin it knowing that they are scared. I read through most of the comments, and its amazing how hate filled these Zionists are - the first comment directly suggested that these 4 should be targets of assassinations. The second user, paraphrased, states that describing Israel's actions negatively and writing about the lobby is considered anti semitic. Then other users go on and repeat Israeli propaganda (Violent Flotilla activists who wanted to be martyred!)...I'd much rather be in the company of those who believe in human rights for all, because it doesn't require us to engage in dehumanization, trickery, and obfuscation (and as other users pointed out: that article reeks of attacks): the violators dehumanize themselves, and all the smoke and mirrors can't cover their actions for anyone who wants to take a peek at what is actually going on.
I'm not surprised. Add in fear, racial hatred, government policies to purposely exacerbate the situation, complete brainwashing of a populace, and a dash of time to let everything emulsify, and one can easily end up with a population that truly believes they are in the right. That doesn't excuse it at all, but I can see how it comes to be. The sadistic part is that its generated entirely on the Zionist's part. Without this environment of fear, Zionism cannot thrive, much less grow.
Towards the end Shapiro was asked about potential US commitment of ground troops to the implementation of peace, and part of his sentence went as follows: "We are already engaged in Deep Consultations and Bilateral Exercises"
Talk about the BS meter going off the scale. Really, does anyone sit and believe this at all?
Anyways, I watched the whole QA session and wondered why, save for a few questions, most everything feels like its been the same questions the past few decades. And these questions are given the same canned answers. Is this what these (to make my own BS phrase) 'productive and positive engagements' always produce? Despite the final statements, there were no answers to tough questions, just creative statements that avoided the questions.
I'm slightly confused (didn't read all the comments) by the exact point of the article. I'm not sure what exactly to draw out of this:
(a) Petreaus is scared of the Lobby and enlists Fervent Zionists to help him (although why would they help him??)
(b) Petraeus has political ambitions and is making sure to cover all his bases. This means anything we think he believes will change once he becomes a politician (why would he even go against the Zionist position at all and challange their closest beliefs?)
(c) Petraeus is actually on the side of the lobby and all of this is complex psy-ops.
(d) is there something else I'm missing, and I'm stupid?
I'm more concerned about who Israel will latch onto, and how long that drift will take.
Continental drifts occur on the scale of hundreds of millions of years. To use it a metaphor would probably to talk about a generation or two worth of change to fully realize the effects. A generation or two? Will there be Palestinians left anywhere beyond "area A"?
Excellent. Got my preorder in for both hard and electronic copy.
I completely disagree Phil. The article is, as a whole, very misleading. It carefully uses its words to distort the reality of the situation and make it seem like the ISraelis are truly the reasonable ones.
Some quick examples:
"Musicians like Costello and the Pixies bowed to online pressure and canceled gigs in Israel. John was targeted as well, but vowed to play on.
"
IIRC, You posted Costello's terse comments on why he wouldn't play in Israel. For one reading those comments, its hard to say he simply bowed to "online pressure", as if he had a desire to play in Israel, but it was the 'activists' that pressured him not to; no, he had a desire to play in Israel, but it was Israeli Action that convinced him he should not.
"But those efforts seem to have had little effect, and that, in turn, has led many Israelis to feel that getting a fair shake internationally has become a lost cause.
"
Again its building up the case that the Israelis are truly the reasonable ones. They aren't getting the 'fair shake' against the deluge of condemnation that is described.
""There is a point where even Israelis who are critical of their government say, 'The world has gone mad and the fact that everyone thinks one thing doesn't make it right,'" said Eytan Schwartz, an Israeli activist who launched a Facebook campaign to urge John not to cancel his appearance.
"We earned a lot of the criticism, but it is not about that," he said. "This is about a double standard, about being hypocritical."
"
See how the author takes it and says "Even the leftists in Israel, who want peace, think that they are being treated unfairly".
By the time you are done reading the article, you think that the Israelis are truly reasonable and is this barely described enigmatic pressure is causing all these problems...whereas Israeli's efforts are detailed in fun and light hearted youtube videos!
Thinking about it more, I feel there needs to be more proof. Natalie Portman not appearing in an event doesn't matter unless she is known to going to many events like this in the past prior to the Flotilla Attack (or the Gaza Massacre); she could still a hardcore Zionist without attending rallies. Chances are as a star she is booked in so many things. I would think similar things to other hollywood stars. So unless there is some explicit proof, or a carefully built case around evidence to show that Hollywood Jews are abandoning Israel, then I would be doubtful.
Btw, sorry for taking a negative tone like Witty x_x I guess I'm an engineer/scientist by training so I'm always looking for either direct proof, lots of indirect proof to build an argument, or at least empirical fits, as opposed to singular instances. Making a decision based on N=1, or data that is not complete enough is always problematic :p So let us see more proof before you want to say this definitively.
We'll see. I share your hope, but on a pragmatic level those who are hardcore Zionists are still extremely powerful and they won't go down without a fight. Even then, this is only a segment of the American Left. There are plenty of PEPs still left who would truly take themselves to be progressive yet feel that Palestinians are not beat up, bullied, or bombed enough.
Yup those primitive home made rockets surely is the arming of Hamas by Iran, right? Wake up.
Keep inventing your fears. Look how far it has taken Israel. Complaining about the rearming of places like Lebanon is funny considering how much Israel arms itself, and how Nasrallah has stated over and over he doesn't want another conflict....of course better to attack and say they truly wanted the aggression, right? And that rearming of Lebanon is truly a problem because, as you can see in 2006 War, the national army fought the Israelis hard, and Hizbullah was terrorizing all Israeli civilians with high tech.....errr wait a minute.
Your comments are very telling into how you perceive things...and how you perceive them are incredibly twisted. It is what makes it easy for you to rationalize what goes in Gaza possible.
Eh you are thinking too much. When people have names that are hard to pronounce (Imagine a name like Zhongping, Xiaozhang, Byuong, Phuong) it is easier to take an english version.
I think in this case turning Mahmoud into Michael was more about fear of being identified as a Palestinian or Arab as opposed to having too foreign sounding of a name.
Sickening....especially when I thought, "Wait a minute I can't imagine why anyone would box anything that poorly". Clearly you guys are a smarter cookie as I didn't think about it.
Whelp they already said they'll send another flotilla, and I already pitched in. Will probably so do again at a later date before they ship it out.
Really Israel...what lesson was learned from the holocaust? Clearly it was not the right one.
Oh yes because clearly we never attacked civilians there, overthrew governments and support colonial states looking to dispossess natives....the howling is not justified one BIT!
/sarcasm
No I'm sure Israeli Govts enjoy the status quo - Arab Despots generally enrich themselves at the expense of their populations, and do very little to improve the standard of living outside of their key power bases. Israel can continue to claim, over and over again, that they are the ones with tech and falsely claim 'made the desert bloom'. Besides, its easy to dominate over peoples whose political situations is not even stable. Trust me, it is the Israeli Govts that are ultimately delighted in this running sore, and they will continue to do so until they get every little bit of land they want.
We need to take your racist mentality and metaphorically allow it to stew in its own juices, because clearly it seems you have no other purpose in life except howl at Palestinians for demanding human rights.
I just don't understand you guys; if only he listened to the Israeli concerns, he would realize that they are very moderate in what they need. He is out of line for trying to build on the disputed land; how do they know that things like tents, cisterns, metal roofing isn't covering or hiding something? The fact that they just haven't gone in, removed him, and taken over is testament to Israeli Restraint. They gave him 3 days for Pete's Sake! The inclusion of the Sabbath was to allow him to spend an extra day preparing for himself - you guys are not so dense that you imagine he will literally spend 3 days at the court!
When you choose to live near a Jewish Neighborhood, you open yourself up to security concerns because Israelis are very sensitive about these things considering how they were nearly pushed out to the sea several times, but miraculously survived each time. If you have a problem with it, move to another location. No one is forcing you to live there.
See your problem is that it is not possible because you only state that it provides protection and rule of law, and identification as a Jewish state isn't just symbolic = it sets up hierarchy that severely penalizes those who aren't Jewish. So as long as the laws are different for different groups (however you want to slice each group), so as long as one group has extra rights, then there will never be equality under the law.
Where will be the Palestinian right to return and make their own aliyah to their land? Where will be the Palestinian right to purchase housing wherever they want, to prevent from being evicted from their homes to make room for Jewish colonizers/settlers, to be able to fight against bigoted city planning, etc etc? Where will the Palestinian right to have Christian and Muslim sites designated as national holy sites that are to be protected?
Hmm...I just realized your statement never even mentioned anything about equality. Bwaha.
So this is how I understand the whole article:
Unless American support, from the Jewish religious community, for Israel fundamentally changes, then nothing will change.
...or pro Palestinian supporters all become bajillionaires and then we could change things by controlling politicians through money.
I take offense to such a callous description. No doubt it is a difficult scenario - we must think about the Israeli Psyche and how threatened they feel when faced with a population that wants to wipe them off the face of the earth.
None of this information, or these empty comparisons to Nazis, is constructive at all - rather, we should ask what we can do to help Israel speed up those checkpoints. More money, more weapons, more types of assistance is really the solution. If we push Israel to fix this relatively simple condition, they may not follow the carrot the way we want them. But imagine if we gave them another free 1 Billion dollars - surely that could convince them to open up those gates in 1/2 the time! We just have to understand Israeli desires, and how to satiate those desires. That is truly the best approach as we forget bridges with Israel into the future so that its security is always understood and guaranteed.
So considering everyone is practicing hasbara, I figured I would join in on the party. I even ignored any mention of Palestinians! I'm so proud at what I've learned of their tactics =)
Any way to email the professor for support? I don't see his email on the site. No doubt he is going to get flooded by a deluge of "balance this class you anti semite!", and after looking at the syllabus I am refreshed that a course isn't attempting to purely spout hasbara. Of course there is no suggestion as to how the class was taught, and I'm not going to take the filtered perspective of dershowitz or pollak as the truth, but atleast on paper it looks like a better attempt to balance things.
Remember, balance in this scenario truly does open up the Palestinian POV because things are so skewed towards Zionist POV.
What about Arab Jews? Will they be accused of dual loyalty?
Your statement is full of fail. People who religiously identify as Jewish - regardless of the ethnic group they came from - have ZERO right to trample on the rights of the native population - regardless of their religious identification.
Israel exists as a fact, but there is _nothing_ that can justify a 'right' to exist based on what they did and are still doing to the Arabs (Christians, Muslims and Jews) that live there.
LOL.
Congress isn't attracted to worthy causes anymore than they are hesitant of "causes that stink" (Although I think it is worth noting that you believe equal rights for Palestinians is something you condemn to 'stinking'). The vast majority are attracted to causes that will not jeopardize their re-election. In practice this usually results in plenty of pork and 'feel good' bills and resolutions. It also causes them to pay attention to the constituency knowing that most people are one or two issue voters whose opinions really cannot be swayed in the issue....ie: they can get away with voting most anyway so as long as they vote for (or against) abortion, for (or against) gun rights, and for (or against) gay marriage depending on what the majority of constituents feel (ie: the majority that will get the re elected).
Voting on issues that will get them re elected also opens up the power of any lobby with a lot of money (and influence considering the shit they pull off in this country) like AIPAC.
You so sure about this Senor Weiss? I can't help but wonder if its reverse psychology at workm, or is there is an ulterior intention beyond the obvious facts of the statement. Of course I know nothing about the background of this person, and i'm making the grave error of tieing him to past Israeli Administrations in terms of words and actions, but what makes you think this is genuine?
Chu - will it truly matter? Doesn't matter if you have the right to sue soeone when the system itself doesn't fully recognize you as an equal, and what you have to battle uphill discrimination accepted by many in a society whose "right" to exist is a combination of falsification and myth. It'll be like any arab applying for a permit: "To get a permit you need the permission" -->"Sorry the permit office is closed today" "We won't look at your application today" "Come back and wait another 5 hours tomorrow". I suppose you might as well try so one can further document how corrupt and racist the system is, but you can't change the system by petitioning to the system.
And what do you know about this guy? Please, tell me.
People will put importance on a name whether it is deserved or not. And those with “the names” understand the attention that is focused on them specifically due to their name; for him to go to Occupied Palestine, tour the land that is being stolen, visit those struggling against repression, and take a strong stance against apartheid, is for him to consciously be aware that he is bringing attention to this worthy and valid cause.
*double post, the first can be removed*
And for you to laugh and say that Ghandi, Desmond Tutu, and Nelson Mandela were/are ALL wrong on Zionism is hilarious. Shows how disconnected from reality you are
And what do you know about this guy? Please, tell me.
People will put importance on a name whether it is deserved or not. And those with "the names" understand the attention that is focused on them specifically due to their name; for him to go to Occupied Palestine, tour the land that is being stolen, visit those struggling against repression, and take a strong stance against apartheid, is for him to consciously be aware that he is bringing attention to this worthy and valid cause.
Bleh I'm not concerned at all. Sounds like B.S.
And if it ever came to that, I would defend Jews while always being on the attack against Zionists who want to erase the Palestinians. You speak as if the US will mindlessly just attack Jews. Here is a hint: Muslims ended up living through 9/11. It sucks, and life got more difficult aftewards because of the islamophobia in politics and the media, but there wasn't a bloodbath against Muslims.
Yonira - if your argument for a "state" relies on the fact that persecution may happen, it is a pretty weak argument.
Let us hope that agreement between all groups holds well. Israel will try its hardest to provoke violent actions and spin spin spin. The video summed up Israeli PR tactics well. Luckily, the Palestinian Cause is more developed today than it has been in the past, but it still won't be easy standing up to the Israeli Juggernaut. Let us continue to hope and push that the political discourse will CONTINUE to change.
Translation of the video:
Miliband: What they did was wrong, and we got assurances that they won't do it again.
All other MP: It is an extra judicial killing, passports can be easily stolen at BenGurion Airport, they've done this before and lied about not doing it again, the appropriate response is ONLY to expel a minister - are you on drugs?, they constantly violate the law - go look at the west bank and gaza, they never follow international law, this is bullshit, they may be a good ally but we have to be critical about them over these issues as well as other palestinians issues.
Generic Response by Miliband: Settlements are illegal, but Israel is our ally and we need to maintain great relations with them.
So will any further action ultimately take place, or will this blow away like prior UK-Israeli incidents, even if it takes a couple of years?
"Electronic Intifada thinks it’s all a choreographed show to make it seem as if the US is an honest broker for Mideast peace. If Ali is right, then it will be up to the EU to step in and disintermediate Obama’s inept crew."
I like how they think.
And as for the EU stepping in...let us be realistic here. Action would be needed, not more words.
I'm not sure who Mugrabi is, but I find that comparing the naming of a town square after a 'evil person' (i'm taking that at face value for now) to the active erasure of Palestinians going on this very minute to be ludicrous. Quite the farce, eh?
Btw, what the hell does disentangling bilateral relations from the peace process ultimately entail? Translation: "Just accept continued ethnic cleansing...it'll be over within 50 years!"
You guys are definitely more hopeful than me that a real shift is happening. We'll see.
For all we know, Netanyahoo could back down on this issue, and then everything will quiet down and that will resolve the 'issue', and business will continue as usual - constant evictions of Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, the fencing off of more and more Palestinian Land, the second class status of Arabs, etc. etc.
Phil - you are no doubt more knowledgeable of the political atmosphere in Washington...but when I see characters like Oren and Friedman, as well as the Israel Lobby, making a huge fuss over what is going on, I can't help but feel that the reaction is that of extreme exaggeration. If the American-Israeli shackles (and from an American POV, I indeed see it as shackles) are stressed to ANY degree, these people and groups start crying wolf - they act as if the sea levels are about to rise 500 meters. [i]Anything[/i] short of a completely bound America, with no stress on the 'special relationship', is an excuse to scream that the sky is falling. For all we know, those shackles could be using high strength steel that won't yield anytime soon.
Why do you feel now is any different? What makes it different than any other time?
And more importantly...do you think the average American electorate (a) even knows and (b) even cares? And even if they were aware, the reality is always distorted due to the extreme bias in our media.
Honestly I feel its just a drama that is being played out. Have Israel insult the US, then have the US act tough and get angry so it doesn't seem they are complicit in what is happening, and move along. We'll forget about what happens over the next month anyways.
Well let us be honest...in most cases K-12 education is really just institutional brainwashing, even if the people who determine the curriculum mean well...no? To say it in a more appropriate manner that doesn't have negative implications : It is to teach kids to see the world through a point of view of the people who determine the curriculum; of course people say that education is meant to expand one's world view; from my view, to teach effectively is to instill a sense of being a skeptic into one's students and pupils; I'm not talking about being an extreme skeptic, but a skeptic who doesn't automatically believe what they are told...but that is not what happens in practice. For most kids....if the teacher said it, it must be true. If a book says so, it MUST be true. Thus, there is a vested interest in what is said because kids will take the word of teacher's as pure truth. I know I did.
They just want kids to see the world as they see it.
Thank God I don't see the world the same way they do lol. Now too bad far right Christian conservatives blind themselves as to what happens in the ME. I honestly believe if they were exposed to what is actually going on with first hand experiences, then we can see a change. But its easy to read the Bible, take an interpretation that the Holy Land is for "Jews" (race/religion/what???), and then immediately rationalize all information that you hear (which is biased to hell anyways...in that sense keeping up with news in the modern media is just taking in the reporter's point of view and is essentially brainwashing as well). One bane of modern media is that because the source of news is so far away and distant that we become dulled to what goes on. Anyways, enough rambling.
"My criticism of Sand, of whom I’ve only read articles and seen youtube lectures, is that he diminishes what it means to be a people to racialist criteria."
Why not try reading his book FIRST before you speak like your criticism is well thought through? Here is a link in case you forget
link to amazon.com
If you read his book you will realize that he does not simply label people using 'racialist criteria'. Now I'm curious what article(s) you read. His ultimate point of the book is very simple: Judaism is a religion that gained many converts in the past through proselytization that swelled it ranks across many places in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. This assessment of history clearly shows that the modern identity of Israel forged by Zionists is a total myth and has no basis in reality; the State of Israel should forge another, more inclusive myth (national histories are almost all myths, so why not?) to include everyone and create a real democratic state with real cultural, political, religious and social freedom for all.
Now if you read more, you'll learn of a lot more interesting tidbits, but it depends on if you will read what he writes, or if you will rely on youtube lectures where he speaks choppy English, or articles that may not discuss his views in clear detail.
Stating 'Death to Jews' is a completely uncalled for comment. As we lambast such racist hippocrites for complaining about racism, we need to keep in mind that racist comments were spewed at him. Attack Ayalon, but don't excuse the initial comment.
If that story is indeed true, and someone indeed yelled that, they did a huge dis service to the cause.
Yeah I didn't get that as well. I read the transcript last night and wanted to vomit at some of the historical revision. That should have EASILY been called out on. I don't get why they gave such a pass. "There is no Palestinian Ghandi because A,B,C are all in jail because Israel is scared of non violent protest as it doesn't justify its actions. This can be seen in villages like Billin where bla bla bla. Furthermore, Ghandi fought an occupation where the rulers were halfway across the globe, not a group that literally shared the same backyard."
Honestly why can't they pick people who actually know the real situation and is up to date with what is going on? I felt that only Cohen got the closest to the proper points. Khalidi got bogged down in retarded discussions about diplomacy which made it seem that Israel was a partner to discuss with diplomatically (which we know isn't true because permanent diplomacy is just a way for them to stall and delay). Absolutely ridiculous.
You are a great you Phil. If I ever find myself on the other side of the country, I will definitely try to get ahold of you for a few drinks, providing you are willing to hang out with a someone half your age ;)
I grew up in a very diverse environment (the perks of having a dad in graduate school ) and never really noticed race until it was brought up to my attention. I way always upset with the idea of 'Jewish Superiority' because I never felt it was true. If anything, I felt it was a case of "If you believe you will succeed, you will" on steroids because now one is invoking divine providence in establishing one's superiority. I honestly feel those ideas are dangerous, because it is not much of a segway from these ideas to more sinister, racist ideas.
So we've gone from Savage to UNCIVILIZED? Are you sure you are picking the right words there?
Again, you are being blinded by your own mis conceptions.
Hate Week? Lol, I can't imagine you are that polarized considering you are atleast reading SOME of this blog.
IMO bringing in people like Abdel Malik isn't needed because he is just too reactionary and loves to layer on conspiracy theories day and night.
But bringing in more Anna Baltzer, Norman Finkelstein, anyone from Electronic Intifada, anyone who worked in the occupied territories for human rights orgs (or even those organizations themselves!), anyone from Breaking the Silence, and many many more of the extremely valuable characters that are part of the Anti- Occupation movement (regardless of whether they are 1 or 2 States) is what is needed.
Do you, or did you even go to UCI before you have the balls to call it hate week?
I think biases against Muslims or Arabs play a bigger role than the actions these students took regardless of the circumstances. You make the same mistake - somehow, for heckling a war criminal, they turn into 'savages'. Is that really the new standard for savages now?
At the very least it is productive because people will learn that a controversial (and i'm putting that mildly. I'd say its fair to say criminal) figure came to the campus and there are people who are very passionate that this was something very very wrong.
As for People catching up on PR....I'm not worried. Zionists have had a good 50 year headstart in PR in the US.
"People like this?". You mean standing up and telling a Monster that he is a Monster? Beyond constantly heckling him for his crimes against the Palestinians, they did nothing more. It doesn't look like they fought with the crowd or threw a punch, it doesn't look like they physically assaulted anyone; if anything they CLEARLY understood that interrupting the event would result in their ejection, as can be confirmed by the fact that (at least from the video) each person stood up and began to walk towards the police as he or she challenged Oren.
I understand the argument of "Free Speech, let him speak", but at the same time I wonder if it is allowable to give south Africa Pro Apartheid speakers the same courtesy.
Ultimately he said what he wanted, but was verbally harassed as a sign that it is CLEAR that people aren't going to simply accept what is going on. Let that be a reminder to him.
Oh, and in the end, I'm dissapointed with UCI simply because the school does not bring in speakers airing opposing views (note: not referring to club invited speakers), or if they did, I never seemed to notice it on campus at all.
Nope I didn't say that at all. People can have their identity and their heritage, but that is a cultural phenomonan which we know is entirely human constructed.
I was thinking more along the lines of "The origin of one's genetic code does not make a person superior at all. What should matter is what a person does in this world through their actions." To be more explicit, I don't care if a person celebrates their heritage, but I care if they use that celebration of heritage as an excuse for racism.
The main message I get out of all of this is that it doesn't matter where your genetic origin lies, what matters is what you choose to make of yourself.
Unless we are using different definitions of 'prophet', I disagree that prophethood existed only within 'the family', as you put it. If you read the Quran there is nothing to suggest that prophets only came from that 'lineage' or line. You later, correctly pointed out, that many other (un named) prophets were sent to other peoples in the world, thus contradicting the first statement you made.
Wait I'm confused. Since when did breaking the silence and Btselem come out AGAINST what the goldstone report? am I missing something? I thought the former was specifically a RESULT of the Gaza War. Anyone care, or willing to clarify things for me? I've been out of the loop for a little bit....apparantly too long because I would have expected Kosher pigs to fly before something like this happened.
It would, on a practical level, also see what is going on because so I can deal with hasbara propaganda..and just based on past history I know something is fishy and something going on. On top of it I can't find where BTS actually comes out saying what Israeli Propaganda is claiming...is it a simple distortion of what they actually said, or am I stupid and need to relearn to use google?
All other means, be it BDS or not, push towards (a) a two State Solution or (b) a single State Solution. To get to that point you invariably need negotiations. Now if the world (lets just say US and EU because that is all that really matters) changes their mind and acts unilaterally to implement a '67 Palestine with force, then I'll be all for it.
Barring the fantastic scenario I just described (Which isn't going to happen), only when Israeli Gov't (and I'm not referring just to Netanyahu) is forced to sit down and negotiate on the basis of rights, and not needs, will all issues be solved.
And all I see , from both Hamas in Gaza and Fatah in WB, is a real desire to live in peace on ~'67 borders (With minor and equal adjustments). I have not seen that from the Israeli Side in terms of actions. It is just about, as others have stated, negotiating for the sake of negotiation to continuously delay a just resolution.
But don't worry yonira - once BDS builds up enough and is mainstream, and once the 'progressives' of the world understand....Israel will want to rush to the bargaining table. I just hope it happens before the slow genocide in the territories explodes with great intensity over a short period of time that would make Gaza seem like child's play - clearly, the Israelis who want all the land are still fantasizing that the Palestinians will someday cease to exist; and once they realize that won't happen, using violent force will be their preferred tool, as it historically has.
I see the pain and suffering inflicted on the Palestinians that we simply cannot express with words. It is absolutely sickening and many person would want to seek revenge through the death of those who inflict such cruelty. Yet by and large, after the constant repression, the constant detention, the numerous checkpoints designed to choke life, the numerous massacres committed, the denial of their historical existence on the land, the racism they face, the human rights violations and systematic attempt to psychologically break down Palestinians across the entire agree spectrum....these people are still willing to sit down at a Table and negotiate a REAL peace based on 1967 lines (both Hamas, and the Israeli Lacky the PA).
This entire website is a testament to that fact if you pay attention and actually read the stories without trying to pre filter it.
That is how I can look at the situation as say that I believe it is possible to deconstruct the aparteid that has been built up. And, looking at the historical events that have transpired, that is how I can say I am most fearful of a backlash from the Israeli side as they may violently attempt to maintain power.
You expect losing Jewish privilege in an apartheid state to be painless? If by painless you mean free of violence on a Kristallnacht scale, then sure, I honestly believe that is possible.
But if by painless you mean retaining all privilege....then I suggest you put down the crack pipe and wake up to reality. In a situation like that, I would expect those in power to fight and be the most violent as they have the most to lose.
ARE YOU THAT DENSE?
THERE IS CONFLICT AND ILL WILL BECAUSE THE HEBRON SETTLERS CAUSE, CREATE, AND PERPETUATE THAT CONFLICT. THEY HAVE GONE AND RIOTED WITH THE PROTECTION OF THE ISRAELI STATE TO EJECT HUGE NEIGHBORHOODS OF PALESTINIANS. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THEY ARE JEWS OR A MINORITY AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THEIR ACTIONS.
Gah, you do this on purpose! Luckily, The caps just makes it look like I am much more angry thatn I actually am.
What dimension do you live in Richard? Do you not think that the settlers in Hebron are honestly NOT there due to formal procedures taken by the government? I suppose there are no institutions (*cough* NY Mets hosting Hebron Fund *cough*) supporting these people and they are simply hooligans - unruly, cruel, and acting out of the norms of others who do not want to cause violence or trouble. Do you like that term because it quietly implies that the 'other' part of settlers are not hooligans either?
Are you purposely trying to twist information, or are you so warped that you can't help but truly see is that way?
Oh I very much know that. the Egyptian Goverment and the Egyptian people are on totally different pages entirely. Actually, we could say that for ALL Governments in the Middle East. You know, Sadat knew how to play the politics game very well - he knew when you had to regroup, rebuild, and play the PR game. I doubt he was interested in destroying Israel; I'm sure he was like Nasser, who desperately just wanted a peace treaty for several years as the Israelis kept blowing him off.
Mubarek just seems to be enriching himself day in and day out. Unless its a game being played on the scale of 3+ decades, I'm totally missing out on how to interpret the government's actions as anything but looking to keep itself in power, EVERYTHING ELSE be damned. Oh - and get his son in power. He is going to lead the way with 'new ideas and change'...just like Obama, right?
Just emailed them. Tried to call, but apparently they are closed. I got through to a guy named Hussein; he said Omar will be there tomorrow.
This is ridiculous how, time and time again, Eygpt is entirely complicit in Israeli Oppression. I suppose that soccer match where they lost to the Algerians was well deserved now. Too bad they bad such a big deal about it and tried to act like it was a matter of national honor - probably because they have lost most of it with their actions towards the Palestinians, and are trying to salvage whatever is left.
I felt it was a ridiculous speech full of flowery words just to justify war and Afghanistan.
What made it ridiculous is not what he talked about - but that he talked about so much without bringing up anything substantial related to the Palestinians.
"In today's wars, many more civilians are killed than soldiers; the seeds of future conflict are sewn, economies are wrecked, civil societies torn asunder, refugees amassed and children scarred."
"A nonviolent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism -- it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason."
"I raise this point because in many countries there is a deep ambivalence about military action today, no matter the cause."
"To begin with, I believe that all nations -- strong and weak alike -- must adhere to standards that govern the use of force."
"First, in dealing with those nations that break rules and laws, I believe that we must develop alternatives to violence that are tough enough to change behavior -- for if we want a lasting peace, then the words of the international community must mean something. Those regimes that break the rules must be held accountable. Sanctions must exact a real price. Intransigence must be met with increased pressure -- and such pressure exists only when the world stands together as one."
"It was this insight that drove drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights after the Second World War. In the wake of devastation, they recognized that if human rights are not protected, peace is a hollow promise."
"And yet all too often, these words are ignored. In some countries, the failure to uphold human rights is excused by the false suggestion that these are Western principles, foreign to local cultures or stages of a nation's development."
"I reject this choice. I believe that peace is unstable where citizens are denied the right to speak freely or worship as they please; choose their own leaders or assemble without fear. Pent-up grievances fester, and the suppression of tribal and religious identity can lead to violence."
I have no idea how he could have said all of that, and how everyone could not be thinking of Palestine as one of the many places passing through their heads. Of course, I have my own biases which affect how I read it.
Either he is (most obviously) trying to refer to the Israeli Government and IDF oppression, but can't (because he doesn't have the political power to do so), or he is just playing blind and thinking that the Palestinians don't matter. A few months ago I might have felt it was the former, and now, I am feeling that it is the latter
Let me throw a wrench into all this "But international pressure is mounting to change" argument. I'm sure its been brought up several times, but I just don't know where to read about it ;). We've seen talks of increased "International Pressure" for many years now. This isn't new at all. Hell, the EU in their recent affirmation only says "We've been thinking the same same for 40 years now".
Will the Israeli peace movement move away from non violent passive protest? Will actual forcible action take place - where you don't just resist passively, but do so forcibly? I've seen from Ibz Ezra's blog that there are instances, so maybe I just don't know because I sure don't claim to be an expert on the dynamics of the Israeli Peace Movement. If they resisted forcibly, does that make them terrorists?
At this rate they'll walk all over the land protesting until there are no Palestinians left.
Perhaps not immediately, but give me a week Bob and I guarantee you I'll be sweet talking all the women in their local style ;)
I can't help but think that some of these comments of 'mutually unintelligible' are coming from non native speakers ;)
I grew up in the USA and learned all my arabic from my parents (Iraqi dialect) and I can still understand most everything despite not being immersed in Arabic media. There may be points where I get confused, but worst case would be 1 week of adjusting to the style. Hell, I took a trip to Sudan (uh oh, I feel I might now be identifiable on the internet lol) and it only took me a few days to pick up the vast majority of what they were saying. Its usually just different words, modified version of a word, or different phrases.
I honestly see it as an exaggerated version of living in rural texas and then going to visit the bronx. Or maybe a more complicated version of soda vs pop...
Its good news to hear. For those engage in direct activism, keep doing that. For those fighting the war with facts and truth, keep doing that. For those funding the other two, keep doing that (of couse that doesn't mean that each 'position' is mutually exclusive...I do hope everyone tries to do a combination). Change can and will happen - We don't need Obama to do it ;)
Btw...how does our isolationism help anything? It may help us pull out of wars, but I can't see it change the $$ and political protection that we give every single Israeli Government. That has been going on for 30+ years.
Keep us updated if/when we can donate to her campaign.
"The possibility that Israel may no longer be capable of forcing peace upon those who deny its right to exist is beginning to dawn on many Israelis."
The, uh, 90%+ that supported Gaza? I recall watching a video a few months ago here with Averny at an Israeli Peace Protest...showing that there wasn't much of them left. So where is this radical change in mentality, if anything it seems that the government is (Successfully) polarizing and turning their population further to the right.
where where where? I watched the video last week, and looked for a transcript, but I couldn't find it.
"The $100,000 question though is if he regards Zionism itself as liberation and self-governance of the otherwise suppressed Jewish people, or as oppression of the Palestinian people."
That is a $100k dollar question to you? Your reading comprehension must suck.
I am learning how twisted Dershowitz is as I go through Beyond Chutzpah. What a sociopathic liar. Its amazing how he can hold up a statement in their meeting, say he agrees with everything, but then takes positions that are completely different. Of course, in the 'pro' opinion of the essay, the writer seems to have learned from Dershowitz - I am still not sure if they know what they are supporting and are lying through their teeth because they are racists, or if they are truly blind to reality and have built up a victim mentality.
So 5 more years and then 2 states will not just be politicall and logistically dead, but also socially dead among Israelis in Palestine? I wonder if those surveyed included Israeli Arabs
Will donate again later tonight. Unlike what Witty suggested, I donate because I agree, not because I want to force you to take a particular spin.
But I agree with potsheard....the manner by which discussions occur is horrible. Something more streamlined and clear is most definitely needed
I also submitted...good luck!
will get on this in the next day or two...email, call, and email/call CITI ;)
See I don't think Netanyahoo is stupid or crazy enough to not realize that he is forcing a single state solution; everyone knows exactly that this will happen and (using racist arguments) make the "Jews" 50% instead of 100%.
I think he is waiting for another chance, or carefully plotting another situation, where they can 'finish the job' and engage in forced population transfer . As much as how many Palestinians are giving up and leaving the West Bank through Jordan, it may not be fast enough. Of course, its been 60 straight years of oppression, so perhaps I'm mis calculating; the the Israeli Govt just may feel it is sitting in a comfortable position until the day comes where most Palestinians have conveniently left the 'land of Judea and Samaria' and they can just quietly move along with life and take control of it all.
Being closer doesn't mean one is more informative. You could still lie the hell through your teeth (Dennis Ross: it was all the Palestinians fault that Camp David '99 had no results!) and be on the ground.
Ugh...I knew it would be this bad. Time to email and bitch at my congressman even though he is straight shot to the right. I'm sure he has more important constituents to listen to than me - constituents that probably funnel him money.
Although in retrospect it isn't as bad as Gaza; so to get ~10% voting present/no is an improvement. Keep at it guys, eh? (ie: donations + email writing)
Seriously though...Obama is the total fail at this point. Either his speech in Cairo was all hot air (which is what I skeptical of), or he really wants to make changes but doesn't have the political power to do so (because of groups like AIPAC using all their pressure day in and day out to muzzle the truth). I'm not sure which one to believe, but I'm sure that this shitty economy isn't helping anything because he can't focus on foreign policy.
I mean to say, "exactly the same". But I want to emphasize that point being they are not exactly the same, they are eerily similar. Too bad they aren't similar enough to the point that supporting Palestinians isn't seen as fighting apartheid in the mainstream.
Don't you mean the Israeli Leadership when you say "supremacist" and "expulsionary"? Mr. "Lieberman knows how to speak Arabic" Avigdor ring a bell? Mr. "In our Judea and Samaria, somehow, out of nowhere, a bunch of Arabs kinda popped out" Prime Minsiter makes you recall a few things at all?
Look at the basic facts on the ground - Palestinian homes are being squashed, and Palestinians are evicted from their homes the past 50 years and given directly to Jews, and you have the audacity to claim that the Palestnian Leadership is expulsionary? I have no love for Arafat or Abbas, but you are using the exact words to describe the Palestinian Leadership that should be applied to the current Israeli Leadership. Of course, the shittier Palestinian politics get, the more I'm sure the Israeli Government cheers for joy.
As for the rest of your comments - the situations aren't exactly the same, and I see no one claiming that the two are the same. But the oppression and exploitation of a native population IS the same. There are many differences - but there are many similarities...
This is our 'change', eh?
"We are publicly opposed to what you are doing, but we won't stop you at all, or threaten you (be it the loss of economic incentives, or the infamous 'all options on the table' military action), and we will go along with your suggestions in the end".
You know that John Stewart, in his interviews, often goes through many basic points that we think is obvious, but that the general population doesn't know about. If I had to bet, most people probably don't know about the Palestinians, and many are completely mis informed on the most basic tactics. True, they (correctly) didn't challenge the Iran question because its not directly relevant for their cause. They are trying to raise awareness on Palestine. That doesn't may they said, "Oh Yeah, Iran, big baddie!"...and if you have a specific point you want to emphasize, its best to stay on topic even if the interviewer (conciously or unconciously) takes it off topic.
Done. Both senators and congressman
What you miss is that they don't need to spin. With 15 minutes, knowing that it will turn into less than 10, you have to emphasize the overall message in order to get people to look into topic themselves. They are trying to make a just cause mainstream and change current discourse. We know their message is truthful and honorable - preaching the end of occupation, and preaching equal rights for Palestinians (whether that is a right to establish a country on 1967 borders, or a single country for all with equal rights)
Don't delude yourself. There are plenty of places with discussion (such as this) that go into the details that you feel they deflected. Of course, you may be the best to know if they deflected because you do it all the time.
Done and Done. The extended interview was great, too bad it had to be edited for the show.
I would have loved that heckler to go down, after the interview, and defend his position. I'm sure that tag team duo would have easily buried him under his mound of propaganda
So you are saying it is a race. You can hide it under the flowery language of 'peoplehood', but that is what you are referring to.
Of course I respectfully disagree.
Btw, to keep ANY cultural group alive you need an effort. It isn't exclusive to Jews (and neither is being burned at a stake for any beliefs).
I can't see that being hard to imagine....do you have some kind of source for that? Given an arbitrary population A and B - there is just as much genetic variation within A and within B as there is BETWEEN A and B. It was on a PBS video I saw in one of my classes 2 years back on race and video ;) I remember finding the video on their website, but they wanted quite a bit of cash for it!
If his argument from a racial perspective, then I'm not interested at all (I sense it is). Race isn't real. My only position where I may understand is if he is worrying about people leaving Judaism.
I'm a Muslim. If I have kids, I will raise them up as Muslims, although, I know that they will eventually make a decision for themselves and love them for who they are because they would be my children. I view my job as making sure that I give them a non distorted view of the religion, because I would feel sick with myself if they end up pushing away Islam because of what they see in our media.
Although not married, I know that if I married someone who wasn't willing to help me raise them Muslim (regardless of their personal beliefs), then it would make that task harder.
If his worry is that marrying Non Jews will dilute the religious fervor, sense of community, and thus carefully eliminate their religious identity...then I can understand that (although I've seen plenty of people with parents of the same religion come out with different beliefs....which is why I think his position is more about 'race').
But in terms of race and humans...we are all the same people, this notion of diluting "Jewish blood" is as ridiculous as diluting "Muslim Blood" or "Christian Blood". Religion isn't in the blood.
However, lets be honest - it isn't just Jewish people that do this. This is extremely common among...well, all ethnic groups as well...and by ethnic I don't just mean "non white"....I refer to virtually every group of people in this world.
Lol I like the response to whitty with the true false. I was going through each sentence thinking how to respond to such a tall tale. You did a great job.
And I want to congratulate these Israelis. I wish I could have gone to see some of them (I believe they had an event with CODEPINK organized), but I can't take off time from work that easily ;)
GJ guys! Glad to support a site like this
Actually I'm thinking how Labor Party's voters "will never forget" that the party entered a coalition with Likud....Was anything better under Labor Party? I only seem to remember the acceleration of bantustan-ation, settlements, and more propaganda and lies about what happened at Camp David. Of course, even Oslo was absolutely ridiculous (although this is as I read about the actual history because I was a child during that period) when you dive into it.
Shingo - can I get a link or copy of the transcript to this specific Knesset speech that you are referring to?
Madrid, where is Mr. Shepards email? I also want to send in an email condemning this type of reporting. I can understand holding on a judgement - present both sides and perspectives and let it be (although NPR typically takes a position even if it allows both sides to speak their view)...however I don't see the other side being given a chance to explain
Sarah thanks for the link....your effort to post it has led to a donation on my part. I also sent it to a friend who donated, and that friend planned on sending it to a few others. Hopefully they can have it asap!
The only problem with your B.S. logic Richard is that its a story directly from the wife of the husband that was arrested. Her position of being there from the very beginning till those soldiers took her husband away, by definition, completely discounts your fanciful hypothetical.
Keep on rationalizing, eh? So as long as it makes you feel better, that is all that matters.
I don't know about having a subscription base. The idea is to get this information OUT to the public, not hide it behind a pay-for-read concept.
1,3,5 seem more appealing. I haven't been to NY yet (I know, I know, what am I thinking) but I would definitely find my way there for something like a Mondoweiss conference.
Try to see what you can secure with other groups. You have a lot of great content, and the hard part about securing funding is showing people you are serious. You've WAAAAY gone past that stage.
Excellent piece. I've had conversations about this very same topic with my friends. We both ended up agreeing that it simply came down to believing one will succeed - one is lucky if they believe they are lucky. From my view, many Jews were successful because of that belief....not because they really were. Motivation really causes people to reach new limits. I also now tell myself the same thing ;)
Of course, you said it so much more wonderfully than my engineer trained brain could have ever done.
Is the email address (the gmail one) legit? I want to make a contribution. Anyone have any experience with it?
I'm an Arab Muslim. The reason that you don't hear us as much is simply because we WANT to talk, but who is there to LISTEN without thinking, "Take everything they say with a grain of salt. The fact that they are Arab and or Muslim MUST mean that they really are not on the side of 'Human Rights'. There must be ulterior motive."
I cannot tell you how many times this has happened. I don't even have to have someone tell me about it...I can FEEL that vibe coming from people.