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Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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  • Natalie Portman says, Enough!
  • The 'Jewish nation' is the central myth of Zionism. It needs to be dismantled.
    • that journalist is too much:

      I acknowledged her pain, and she did not acknowledge mine. I believe the Palestinians have a right to their own state, and she believes the Jews do not.

      what is her pain? she lives in the bay area, a very comfortable life no doubt. and she's juxtaposing her "pain" w/Zoabi's who has witnessed the unbearable dismantling of her homeland, her people imprisoned and killed. what has Sue Fishkoff witnessed?

  • Jewish leader refuses to debate BDS with young Jew, at J Street conference
    • we refuse to debate arguments we will inevitably lose!

    • oh i see, now i get your drift. not to be confused with me gets your drift.

    • not sure i'd characterize a policy of "not to debate" as honorable. but if by "honorably" you mean something else i am all ears. or were you snarking? ;)

    • and i liked what i read of zoe's speech. that's impressive coming from the president of jstreetU.

    • paranam, excuse me for placing my comment here but i wanted it to land above the troll diversion happening lower in the thread.

      phil, thank you so much for the report. this was my favorite most hopeful part:

      Becca Lubow, a student at the University of Michigan who has worked against BDS, said that nothing advances the movement on college campuses more than the impression students get from authorities that they wish to shut down debate of BDS.

      this says it all. the very idea that most effective non violent campaign is deemed off limits for debate, and that was determined a long time ago by reut (along w/frank luntz no doubt) w/the "red lines" paper, is absurd. it's like they have no effective argument against it so they deem it anti semitic and want it removed from discussion. and like anything you're not allowed to say, it drives the conversation. so i totally love this and love that it came from a student who has worked against BDS.

    • the guy who said he’d agreed not to debate BDS was at least open about that

      pabelmont, i didn't read burton's words as an opening so much as an attempt to shut down speech. sort of like, 'that's not fair because i was assured we wouldn't go there and you went there so it's against the rules.' he used the specific word "assured" and said "here on the condition that we would not be debating the topic."

      it's interesting because he doesn't seem free. he didn't actually say he agreed (personally) with this condition, but that he agreed to it, and it put him in a "complicated" position. i wonder where his orders came from. this "mainstream Jewish organizations including my own essentially have a policy to not debate". hmm, i wonder how that's working out for them.

  • Thousands demonstrate at Gaza border in 'Burn Israeli Flags' Friday
    • drop the drugs from "drug addled youth" and what have you got? system addled youth! what kind of system? that system where those other people shoot them and imprison them. what other people? the ones accusing them of being addled by the system. omg, the logic is addling my mind. i need some drugs to comprehend it's all so very complicated. or did i mean complex?

    • dabakr, aside from implying she's in preparation for her own death, you call this a "trait", one we are "glorifying". what planet are you on? a ten year old child in gaza has been through 3 wars. what kind of dream and hope does a parent try to instill in their child at a young age in that environment to offer them the best opportunity in life? exactly what she communicates of course.

      whereas in the colonialist mindset i'm sure one might hope the child would be raised to succumb, to be subservient, to embrace their submission, to bow down to the master. but not raising one's child to accept defeat is not preparation to sacrifice -- it's the opposite.

    • she is preparing to sacrifice

      deema's sign says "I am a child of Al-Majdal" and nothing in the text reminded me of a preparation for sacrifice.

      "...I will return one day over there,”
      “...I am not afraid of these gas bombs or bullets."

      “My mother used to tell me every day that she prepares me for the school: ‘Be strong, darling, do not let anyone take your sandwich.’ So today I will not let the Israelis stop me from return.."

      how does this represent preparation for sacrifice? maybe you know something deema doesn't. this just sounds to me like she's been taught she will return someday, which she probably will, or else her children will. plus, she has a legal right to.

      i've been to gaza and i've been inside UN run elementary school classrooms there. at a very early age they start learning about their rights, international rights.

    • I just noted that for a people whose doom is impending (we all agree that BDS is destroying ....

      another sarcastic bragging expedition.

      i'm thinking about not feeding trolls this morning.

  • Sen. Warren and 5 congresspeople finally criticize Israel's killings; pressure mounts on Feinstein
    • Their mindset is fixated on a problem their mediocre mindset

      whoa. deep.

    • by all means dabakr, link to it. link to their big conferences like aipac's where all the politicians attend and bow over kissing the ring. the biggest "well funded" palestinian org i know of, which likely gets their funds similar to berniw sanders $27 a pop campaign, is the bds movement which is being attacked by the israel lobby's anti bds legislation in states all across the country. so name some names for us. tell us which pols are in the pocket of this "extremely well funded palestinian lobby". because any tom dick and harry can name the names of millionaire and billionaire pro israel supporters. come on, back up your claim. start with the a** kissing politicians.

    • 433 Congressmen and 99 Senators have NOT responded because they rightly view it as a provocation.

      what may "rightly" be seen as provocative today, can be seen as radically just tomorrow, or in less than a generation. mlk was considered provocative, remember? killed for it too. just think about it, another few decades israel could have streets all over the country named after Haniyeh, or palestinian heroes they are killing today and a palestinian president. relax, we're in it for the long haul, justice will prevail.

  • Netanyahu says Israeli snipers are doing ‘holy work’
  • Contextualizing the Great March of Return
  • ‘Onion boy’ Mohammed Ayyash dreams of a playground, just like every other kid
    • "onion boy scares the bejeebers out of you eh?"

      jack: Nobody but BDS/Mondoweiss Kool aid drinkers believes that Hamas ‘went Gandhi’ overnight.

      strawman! nice divert tho! onion boy scares the bejeebers out of you eh?

      jack: hamas hamas hamas hamas yada yada hamas yada yada hamas

      onion boy scares the bejeebers out of you eh?

    • You are a full throated supporter of a internationally recognised terror group.

      googled operation timber sycamore lately? how about the MEK or PKK? iow, determining who's a terrorist is highly subjective. the accusation just doesn't pack the punch it once did. especially when tossed around by agents defending the empire.

      You and your BDS/Mondoweiss cult devotees live in bubble, divorced from the real world.

      so, onion boy scares the bejeebers out of you eh. good to know. yeah, he's pretty creepy alright. think hamas set him up to it? the onion in that disposable surgical face mask? maybe you could get israel to blockade those surgical masks from gaza. photos like these are dangerous. i wonder where he got it. hamas or maybe one (or both??) of his parents are a doctor or nurse. maybe a hamas nurse? or an aunt or uncle? omg, the possibilities are endless. if this child were not a child but an adult with that onion disposable surgical face mask, just imagine how much more dangerous he might be.

      a hamas onion disposable surgical face mask -- horrific.

      you would make a pact with the devil in order to end Israel’s existence.

      does the devil even make pacts with people supporting children bearing onion enhanced disposable surgical face masks? hmm. you might have a point. let me think about that in the morning.

    • jack, relax. your over 2 week old "breaking" jpost article claims "A seven-year-old Palestinian girl was sent by Hamas across the fence, opposite IDF soldiers." even they didn't claim she was sent there to die. this is the same idf who claims hamas organized the protests (not true). how do you know this is not just a made up story or one of a little girl walking towards the border? how do you, or how does the idf know, hamas "sent" her? your article is old news hasbara. and then you add on to it by saying "to die". massive #fail. if this had been true there would have been an update on it or photos or something. child walking towards border is not hamas send child to their death. grow up.

  • Israeli government effort to paint slain journalist Yaser Murtaja as terrorist is failing
    • misterioso, friends of sabeel tried bringing her here for a 2017 speaking tour and the US denied her a visa. hopefully code pink will be more successful.

      http://mondoweiss.net/2016/12/tamimi-denied-speaking/

      as an aside, i wrote an article once about filmmaker Mohammad al-Azza, when they shot his eye out, called targeting talent http://mondoweiss.net/2013/04/targeting-talent/ . there are too many young stellar palestinians who have been targeted to name them all. this is a pattern of colonization and genocide, to remove the leaders of a cultural/national group, especially the males. COIN does it too.

    • they targeted him precisely because of who he was. talented, young, ambitious, and beautiful. palestinians such as Murtaja represent a grave threat to israel, precisely because of who they are.

  • Neocons and liberal interventionists are back in the saddle again -- though 'nobody wants a big war'!
  • Striking images from the last week of Gaza's Great March of Return
    • and you can't call them clashes when there's a land barrier between the two sides. photo captions (such as these) are generally written by the photographer/photojournalist or their agency. here's a tongue and cheek article addressing the topic "How to write about Palestine like an objective western journalist" https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/how-to-write-about-palestine-like-an-objective-western-journalist-14371607

      First: The facts

      Each time Palestinians protest and Israelis open fire, you should describe it as “clashes” or something similar, devoid of contextualisation. Take Bloomberg for instance (“Palestinians Clash With Israeli Troops for second week in Gaza”) or BBC’s (“Deadly unrest on Gaza-Israel border as Palestinians resume protests”). Here, the facts don’t matter: There were no clashes; just Israeli forces opening fire on unarmed protesters - who were either rolling tyres to burn near the fences or border, or praying, or running, or chanting. Take CNN’s “Fresh violence erupts along Gaza-Israel border as Palestinians march again”. Here the violence erupts the same way a volcano erupts for no particular reason.

  • 50 NYU student groups endorse BDS, call on university to divest from companies complicit in Israeli occupation
    • practically speaking, not sure how much "political capital" accusations of anti semitism have any more in the UK. what's a society to do after years of screaming headlines accusing a certain well seasoned well loved politician of antisemitism oh so coincidentally after he becomes party leader? like the boy who cried wolf, society just becomes immune after awhile. it's not like everybody doesn't know there's a wolf, but they keep screaming its name for political gain, and people are just fed up -- jeremy corbin is not an anti semite and neither are 99.9999% of labour members. these pro israel people just want all the attention all the time and frankly, they are about as charismatic as a nagging schoolmarm. recent big headlines ISRAEL LABOR CUTS TIES WITH JEREMY CORBYN.. like who the f cares? the labor party in israel is a minor party. the party leader, Avi Gabbay, i have never even heard of him til i just googled. i bet not even 1 person in 5000 in the UK know who he is. and this makes headlines?

    • Many Jews in the UK were “losing their traditional political home”

      but, the vast majority aren't. so there's that.

    • something tells me it's probably not too fun defending the slaughter on gaza's border right now (sadists aside --catalan seems to be enjoying himself, as usual). there seems to be no limit to the hysteria over anti semitism in the UK. i'd even be more concerned about it myself had it not been revealed in the AJ undercover series how accusations of anti semitism were being promoted as a political agenda.

    • rise of leftist antisemitism that supports radical Muslim anti-Israeli attitudes expressed in antisemitic terms such as in the BDS ...

      this statement implies the bds movement express "radical Muslim anti-Israeli attitudes". i wonder how those are defined. here's the paragraph proceeding that one, regarding trump's jerusalem statement:

      Reactions to the move included attacks on Jews, antisemitic slogans, including calls for murder, and the burning of the Israeli flag. “These incidents do not necessarily originate in Muslim and Arab circles and countries, but rather come from a variety of groups and circles, from most of the political spectrum, leftwing groups included.”

      so, bds expresses "radical Muslim anti-Israeli attitudes" but the jerusalem response "do not necessarily originate in Muslim and Arab circles and countries", so i guess bds is "radical Muslim anti-Israeli" and the reaction to jerusalem was not?

  • How Gaza came to be trapped 'from fence to fence'
    • there's no strawman despite your claim mondonut. just because replacing palestine with a settler dominated jewish State has been overwhelmingly inhumane doesn't necessitate the assumption implementing a right of return for palestinians would or could not be humanitarian, and of course it belongs in any humanitarian discourse regarding the future of the region.

      if you didn't choose the term eliminate to suggest mass slaughter, why not just carry on discussing the elimination of israel as a jewish state, vs a state of all its citizens* in equality, as it should be? why not just answer roha's question: If the granting the right of return means an end to the State of Israel as it currently is, so what?

      *including the recognition all native people residing (in their homeland) as citizens.

    • the hasbara surrounding these events (especially the greenhouse propaganda) has so thoroughly saturated the media, it's as if jack thinks people are just going to sort of *forget* reality. like if you say "greenhouse gift" 1000 times everyone will think settlers wrapped it in a bow and parted with good wishes. something is not a gift when you charge a fee (and because settlers were not happy with the fee they demolished 1/2 of them themselves before they left) and it's not a gift when all the time, labor and money invested in making a 20 million dollar investment work ends up rotting under the hot sun because israel and the US won't allow trade with the outside world.

      he's determined to talk to us so his footprint (or their footprint, their narrative) can be on the page. not sure what the sloppy "idiot" stuff is about. it's as if he thinks we will forget. palestinians have long memories, and we've got the archives... for ever lying hasbara meme, we've got a record of reality.

    • or tell me jack, do you think this little girl, after witnessing her family blown up on the beach, is faking it for the camera. is that the route you're going to take (with snippy "idiot" "moron" ad hominem crutches thrown in for good measure)?

    • ah, so that's what it's about, israel responding. and israel breaking the ceasefire? >

      The event broke a 16-month ceasefire between Hamas and Israel, setting off a summer of death (Operation Summer Rains) which resulted in over 400 dead human beings. Boianjiu described a famous photo in her fictional story, which matched a real life photo that McClatchy described as “an icon of the Arab-Israeli conflict” and “a potent symbol in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that could embolden Palestinian resistance and erode international support for Israel.”

      http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/famous-killing-on-gaza-beach-broke-the-ceasefire-lead-to-operation-summer-rains/

    • you're very welcome jack. let's review this lie/hasbara about the "parting gift":

      According to the New York Times, two months prior to the withdrawal, in July of 2005, Israeli settlers demolished about half of the greenhouses, “creating significant doubts that the greenhouses could be handed over to the Palestinians as ‘a living business.’”.... rather than leave their greenhouses behind for the Palestinians some settlers decided to burn them to the ground.

      Notwithstanding the destruction that had already been wrought, wealthy American philanthropists led by the Gates foundation and James Wolfensohn, the US Special Envoy for Gaza Disengagement, bought the remaining greenhouses from the Israeli settlers on behalf of the Palestinians in Gaza for $14 million. Wolfensohn contributed $500,000 of his own money.

      the so called "gift" was bought and paid for. as to what happened to those "structurally intact" greenhouses, to which "some" of the pipes and pumps etc were removed:

      The PED [Palestine Economic Development Company]invested more than $20 million into the project. Jabir said that as a result of the destruction by Israeli settlers and Palestinian looters the PED had to invest an additional $5 million into the greenhouse project to revive it......the greenhouses were up and running by mid-October. By late November, the New York Times reported that the Palestinians were preparing to harvest a crop of peppers, strawberries, tomatoes and herbs worth $20 million. Presciently, in the same article, Palestinians expressed concern that if Israel did not keep the Karni border crossing open, it could result in the demise of the greenhouse project.

      so what happened? israel prevented gaza from economic recovery. slow strangulation. here's how wiki put it:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

      By early 2006, farmers, faced with the slowness of transit, were forced to dump most of their produce at the crossing where it was eaten by goats. Ariel Sharon fell ill, a new Israeli administration eventually came to power and Wolfensohn resigned his office, after suffering from obstacles placed in his way by the U.S. administration, which was sceptical of the agreements reached on border terminals. Wolfensohn attributed this policy of hindrance to Elliott Abrams.

    • jack, twisted convoluted hasbara, #fakenews. try harder.

      for your edification i recommend "The Greenhouse propaganda—How Gazan history is being rewritten to dehumanize Palestinians" by Justin Schwegel: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/propaganda-dehumanize-palestinians/

  • Slain Palestinian journalist's media org vows to hold Israel accountable 'for this heinous crime'
  • 1948 and the Anglo–Saxim: on Western involvement in expulsion of the Palestinians
    • au contraire, i have a concept of what i wrote. there was no "maybe" there. there was no hypothetical justification like your hollow words.

    • there were witnesses at Tantura. you can't erase it. and the ambush of the hospital convoy, that happened 4 days after the slaughter of civilians at deir yassin.

    • when jack pulls the 'low hanging fruit*' /'roof over your head' lines you gotta start tip toeing real careful like around his sensitive feelings.

      and the full belly thing... okay!

      *as if israel doesn't get cadillac treatment from our gov. triple yawn, better go grab my hankie.

    • thank you Dan Freeman-Maloy, fascinating read.

  • Jews and trauma
    • you're ripping my gut today mooser. that and the hood comment to yonah -- barely catch my breath.

    • jon, that's kinda like saying "now it's gay marriage, what's next, marrying a child, or your pet?"

    • yonah, your "modus vivendi " reminds me of hamas 2008 offer of a 10 year hudna or truce if israel returned to 67 borders. http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24235665/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/hamas-offers-truce-return-borders/#.WsuksdPwZ_8

      the offer was made to carter during negotiations in syria. he took it seriously. the article claims "Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he decided not to meet with Carter in Israel because he does not wish to be seen as participating in any negotiations with Hamas." and the state department "dismissed Carter’s assessment ".

      Convincing the nontraumatised American Jewish young ‘uns that they have little in common with Israel is the workable strategy.

      they seem to be figuring this out on their own and need little convincing. i'm reminded of david sheen's 2014 "Terrifying tweets of pre-Army Israeli teens" http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/terrifying-tweets-israeli/

      Convincing people who are attached to israel, that they should detach, because their attachment is a result of trauma and let’s have a discussion about the trauma, that’s not going to work, not here, not anywhere on this planet.

      hmm. can you elaborate on why? you seem to sure.

      certainly not when initiated by someone who often has espoused his basic apathy towards the disappearance of Jewish languages.

      that's so interesting you should say this. it's my understanding yiddish was sort of dropped by a whole generation of jewish immigrants who arrived in the US. for whatever reason, to assimilate perhaps. but many didn't teach their own children yiddish. i don't know if that could be ascribed to "apathy", but some might consider it such. do you think there is resentment by the youth to their parents generation for this absence?

  • Seven things you need to know about Israel's latest attack on Gaza
    • it's just so invidious for those snowflake snipers they had to shoot palestinians as they were running in the opposite direction! it's so invidious they simply had to target palestinian journalists covering the event!

    • that last line about the bus drivers, i don't buy it. i read in a highly statistically challenged daily beast article bus drivers in Gaza had been compelled by Hamas to drive people to the border "or relinquish his vehicles" (presumably so others could use the buses to attend the protest). so where did you get your info mayhem, about the jail time?

  • Philadelphians to Philly Orchestra: Cancel your trip to Israel
    • Singling out B&J when every other company sells in the settlements doesn’t make much sense.

      i already explained, they are not singled out. many many companies selling consumer goods in the settlements are targeted.

      The only company I know of which refuses to sell there is McDonald’s

      not sure how that's relevant.

      It makes more sense to boycott items produced in the settlements.

      why? if you live in a town w/a corporation that profits off the occupation it makes sense to target that corporation. it makes perfect sense for an american to target caterpillar or motorola. and if you live in burlington, it makes sense to target ben and jerry's. some activists and campaigns are just more effective than others, and get the word out more.

      it's not as if there's some limit on what you can boycott. obviously it takes a lot of effort to organize a campaign against a specific company, but many activists groups work together under the umbrella of the bds movement. but effectively, it makes sense to boycott as many companies and products as one can once you find out a company is profiting off the occupation and not limit oneself to just products produced in the settlements.

      they have a chevrolet dealership in Ma'ale Adumim. that would be a corporation to target. why not?

    • So why boycott B&J and not Nestle

      nestles is already targeted by bds. https://www.facebook.com/BDSbayarea/photos/a.719657444772088.1073741828.718226288248537/740383832699449/

      https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/bds-activists-label-israeli-products-in-canadian-stores-1.5417887

      They were stuck on Pampers diapers, made by Proctor & Gamble, one of the largest clients of an Israeli company that supplies diaper products; on Coffee-mate, made by Nestlé, which has a large business footprint in Israel; and McCafé coffee by McDonald’s, which BDS activists say has partnered with U.S. Jewish groups to promote trips to Israel.

      Meanwhile, stickers proclaiming “Israeli apartheid, don’t buy into it” were affixed to five bottles of Efrat white wine, made in the Judean Hills, at a Vancouver liquor store.

      settlers buy ice cream, along with other food, drinks, clothes, appliances, computers, cars, airline tickets, and everything else.

      whoever distributes B&J to the settlements, they and B&J profit off the occupation. B&J has a say so over who distributes their products and if they are ok with making that profit over doing what's morally right, then they will be targeted. they should not be selling their products in illegal settlements. they should not be making life more pleasurable for people living on stolen land. not too complicated.

    • jon, did you read "Ben & Jerry’s Economic Complicity in Israel’s Military Occupation and Illegal Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory"? what does it mean to "support...a boycott of the settlements" while at the same time supporting businesses that profit off the settlements?

    • Page: 230
  • Pelosi and 9 Dems had 'excellent meeting' with Netanyahu even as Israel sent 'dozens of snipers' to Gaza
    • stop already. what's next, claiming this was not native american land because you don't recognize how they governed.

    • no, it is not "same as Jews in historical Palestine". not at all.

  • Highlighting trending topics
  • Saudi Arabia's crown prince says Israelis have a 'right to have their own land'
    • just, i've read on twitter the killing has not stopped. the snipers will be there for the duration of the protest which lasts weeks. and did you see this?

  • Killing Palestinian protesters turns into a PR debacle for Israel
    • you keep saying it doesn't matter what you think, but i don't believe you. if you really thought that you'd stop the taunting sadistic condescension that permeates so much of your discourse here. you must think it's effective but i disagree. however, as you represent a particular mindframe, your posts stand as one (of many) examples of why israel is not revered online -- why they are losing the youth and will continue to.

      funny you should mention sociopaths. yes, i do believe you "know" them very well.

    • speaking of 'ideologies of extermination', what did you think of israel's blatant and boastful pre protest announcement they'd be greeting the peaceful protestors with 100 snipers. impressive don't you think? and then afterwards the claims hamas virtually set them up. such subtle hasbara, more brilliance from the pro israel faction in the blogisphere. why you'd think israel would just be getting more popular by the day! no?

      Israel is basically finished because of the consumer boycotts. You have won the battle!

      it's that sadistic glee that sets you apart catalan.

    • I understand these types of people very well – what they want is to annihilate Israel and then to kill all Jews worldwide.

      the breadth of your knowledge and understanding is truly remarkable catalan. tell us, what experiences have led to such unique prescience. your originality is mind-boggling.

  • A brief, unhappy history of Israeli massacres
    • zaid, just saw your comment. i added khan yunis a couple hours ago, before the 2012 gaza slaughter (thanks just). i know there are so many more...

    • Kafr Qasim massacre

      The Kafr Qasim massacre took place in the Israeli Arab village of Kafr Qasim situated on the Green Line, at that time, the de facto border between Israel and the Jordanian West Bank on October 29, 1956. It was carried out by the Israel Border Police (Magav), who killed Arab civilians returning from work during a curfew, imposed earlier in the day, on the eve of the Sinai war, of which they were unaware.[1] In total 48 people died, of which 19 were men, 6 were women and 23 were children aged 8–17. Arab sources usually give the death toll as 49, as they include the unborn child of one of the women.[2]

  • Videos of Palestinians shot walking, running and praying appear on social media, but US cables keep mum
  • 'NY Times' covers up Israel's killing of nonviolent protesters along the Gaza border
  • Jeremy Corbyn and ’anti-Semitism’ - making sense of the hysteria
    • one more thing MHughes, i don't know about this "shoo-in", but i tend to agree with ossinev's this may actually strengthen his support particularly amongst younger voters who can see this as simply the latest Zioploy.

      had there not been consistent blasting headlines regarding labour/corbyn and anti semitism ever since he became labour leader, this latest row over the mural might have been damaging, but under the circumstances i think it may be having the opposite effect. tho jonathan claims it is "the anti-Semitism accusation that is the most effective", i disagree.

      i think it's more likely people resent it, the constant accusations. i think the more pressure being applied, the more people stick to their guns. all the statements being made showing concern and how people have to rid labour of antisemitism, people are likely to view as posturing. it's hard to feel sympathy for a small segment (sliver) of society that has the full support of the elites (power) and the media (power) at their back pounding and pounding and pounding for years.

      plus, "Conservatives Voters Back a Labour Brexit" http://survation.com/conservative-voters-back-labour-brexit/
      it just makes sense more voters on all sides of the aisle (except perhaps strong zionist pro israel voters) are going to have more concern over brexit than they are about antisemitism.

      Labour extends polling lead to 8 points over the Conservatives
      http://survation.com/labour-extends-polling-lead-8-points-conservatives/

    • If you look at ‘UK Poling Report’, which is quite good, I think you find that the Conservative vote is still a pretty solid object.

      according to UK Poling: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/date/2017/06/page/2

      The two best performing traditional polls [on the last UK election] seem to be those from Survation and Surveymonkey.

      http://survation.com/survation-most-accurate-pollster/

      Survation Was the Most Accurate Pollster this Election – How Did We Get It Right?

      https://twitter.com/Survation/status/973150674891476992

      NEW UK Voting Intention (chg vs 29/01): LAB 44% (+1); CON 37% (-3); LD 9% (+1); UKIP 3% (NC); SNP 3% (NC); Green 2% (+1); Other 3% (NC

      and here's UK Poling home page right now, posted yesterday:

      Today’s Times has some fresh polling of Labour party members. It was conducted between Tuesday and Thursday this week in the wake of the anti-Semitism row, though is also the first opportunity we’ve seen since the general election to take the general political temperature among Labour party members.

      On that second point, the first thing to notice is the major shift in the level of support Jeremy Corbyn has among Labour party members. Two years ago this was still a party divided on the leadership and unsure of his future. Now they are solidly behind him. 80% of Labour members think Corbyn is doing well as leader, just 19% badly. 74% of Labour members think that Jeremy Corbyn should lead the party into the next general, and 64% of members think it is likely that Jeremy Corbyn will become Prime Minister in the future.

      This is a complete transformation of attitudes since 2016 – back then, Labour members were split on Corbyn’s performance, didn’t think he could ever win, most didn’t want him to fight the next election. Now, following Corbyn’s victory against Owen Smith and the party’s revivial at the election, Corbyn’s support in the party looks absolutely solid.

    • So, please, Jonathan, let’s deal with reality.

      james, other than carping on jonathan (and phil), i'm just wondering what you've been up to about this "stealing at gunpoint whatever Palestinian lands they favored, as well as establishing a racist, genocidal, ethnic cleansing “culture” in both Israel and in what little remains of Palestine. Moreover these Zionists and Zionist sympathizers are quick to label “anti-Semitic anyone who dares to criticize them and their Zionist Israel for legitimate cause; and, in the case of Jeremy Corbyn, he dared to endorse boycotting of Zionist israel’s illegal colonies established on stolen Palestinian lands and supports freedom, justice and equality for the Palestinians." ?

      anything? or is this your primary activist action, educating the otherwise clueless writers at MW? just curious!

    • it does seem the current UK frothing frenzy over anti semitism knows no bounds! i read jonathan arkush's new demands. it's almost head spinning. but i think ultimately people will see through it. i so hope corbyn becomes pm.

  • On the 'double standard' for Israel
  • Older Jews are officially terrified of young Jews' views of Israel
    • between the election of Ronald Reagan and the downing of the twin towers, the generations changed

      reagan was president from 1981 to 1989. my theory, teaching king's legacy to schoolchildren early in life.

      Although King was assassinated in 1968, legislation designating the third Monday in January—near his Jan. 15 birthday—as a legal holiday to honor him did not pass until 1983. The first year the U.S. observed the holiday was 1986, when the day fell on Jan. 20.

  • The problem with Passover
    • ossinev, everyday i google corbyn just to keep up w/the anti semitism accusations. just when you think it can't get worse it gets worse. you'd think the UK had no bigger problem, like -- brexit -- but no. it's really unbelievable. and the labour party. unreal.

  • 'Such a state is not a democracy': Israeli citizens respond on proposed amendments to Anti-Boycott Law
  • The barriers
    • thanks. really interesting in it's simplicity. this reminds me of conversations i've had with people who have a only rudimentary understanding of what's going on over there. the only thing that sticks out as different than i would have responded might have been the algebra/zero response. when people say ignorant things like she did i think about what our society might be like if outside interests spent trillions oppressing and colonizing us over the last century so they could rob us blind. how has the prison population in the US added to our society? what have the reservations brought us except casinos? or those areas of our country called "sacrifice zones", environmentally crushed by the weight of corporate greed. i don't think it's all the fault of western involvement in the middle east, but how can you tell what it may have been like otherwise? plus, just because amory is not familiar with the beauty and art of arab culture, the arts, literature, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. there's just so much wrong with that kind of thinking, and i am not even educated enough to mention all the reasons why. chris_k's point indeed.

      not sure how i missed this article til today, but i really like it. i like being a fly on the wall during your dinner conversation.

  • Trump appointed Bolton because Republicans desperately need Adelson's money
  • Video: Israeli police destroy Palestinian tombstones in Jerusalem cemetery
    • "to clean away the graves of the Jews."

      i find it really interesting this particular sentence has quotemarks around it. as far as i know, there is only one source for it, Israel: The Story of a Miracle by Morris Mandel, Leo Gartenberg. 1969 Jonathan David Publishers, NY. at google books, no other books come up citing this quote. this is also the source for Around 4,000 tombstones were removed.

      i'm just wondering, if there is another source for this information besides Morris Mandel and Leo Gartenberg's book. for both the quote and the allegation of 4000 tombstones being removed. wiki is not always the best source. that's a lot of tombstones, i'm sure it would be recorded somewhere else but i can't seem to find other sources.

  • War-loving, Muslim-hating John Bolton wants to give 'pieces' of Palestine to Jordan and Egypt
  • Clashing with the Jewish state: ultra-Orthodox Israelis who reject Zionism
    • i googled "normative Jewish theology " having never heard of it and low and behold there is a book called NORMATIVE JUDAISM? JEWS, JUDAISM AND JEWISH IDENTITY https://www.gorgiaspress.com/normative-judaism-jews-judaism-and-jewish-identity

      The questions of how and why certain aspects of Jewish life and thought come to be regarded as authoritative or normative, rather than inauthentic or marginal, have been and continue to be contentious ones. Topics include the philosopher Moses Maimonides, the composer Felix Mendelssohn, the self-perception of communal leadership in Manchester during the nineteenth- and twentieth-centuries, sermons of Jewish Reform rabbis during the Second World War, Orthodox rabbinic debate about war in general, representations of Jews in photographic exhibitions, the idea of Jewish music, and the academic study of Judaism itself.

      oh my.

  • Ron Lauder's two-state epiphany elicits rage and condescension in Israel
    • ossinev, i don't think that line of catalan's can be fully appreciated without the extension:

      if you want to influence Israelis......Or maybe you don’t need to convince anyone at all

      as if the choice is between convincing israelis or, basically no one else! as if israel is this little island sustaining itself in isolation, as if the rest of the world, or public opinion, is irrelevant!
      this is why bds freaks the heck out of israel and they are scurrying to pass all these laws and make it illegal. because they know, as any person with common sense knows, public opinion matters!

    • sounds wonderful genesto! i wish you all the happiness in the world, forever!

    • Also, I do not understand the constant reference to “liberal Zionists.” Who can they be?

      lillian, personally i think the term is an oxymoron, something i've expressed before. but i think using the term "liberal" makes people feel more warm and cozy about their self identity and here's why

      lib·er·al
      ˈlib(ə)rəl/Submit
      adjective
      1.
      open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.
      "they have more liberal views toward marriage and divorce than some people"
      2.
      (of education) concerned mainly with broadening a person's general knowledge and experience, rather than with technical or professional training.
      synonyms: wide-ranging, broad-based, general
      "a liberal education"
      noun
      1.
      a person of liberal views.

      co-joining one's stance w/"i'm open" and "i'm concerned" is a form of posturing. 'i'm a flexible open zionist w/concern for all people or "both sides"'. see how nice that sounds? no one likes to think of themselves as rigid and unbending. a perfect example is avi shavits in his book promised land -- Lydda https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/10/21/lydda-1948

      Do I wash my hands of Zionism? Do I turn my back on the Jewish national movement that carried out the destruction of Lydda? No. Like the brigade commander, I am faced with something too immense to deal with. Like the military governor, I see a reality I cannot contain. When one opens the black box, one understands that, whereas the massacre at the mosque could have been triggered by a misunderstanding brought about by a tragic chain of accidental events, the conquest of Lydda and the expulsion of Lydda’s population were no accident. Those events were a crucial phase of the Zionist revolution, and they laid the foundation for the Jewish state. Lydda is an integral and essential part of the story. And, when I try to be honest about it, I see that the choice is stark: either reject Zionism because of Lydda or accept Zionism along with Lydda.

      One thing is clear to me: Mula Cohen and Shmarya Gutman were right to be angry with the critics of later years who condemned what they did in Lydda but enjoyed the fruits of their deed. I will not damn the brigade commander and the military governor and the 3rd Battalion soldiers. On the contrary. If need be, I’ll stand by the damned, because I know that if not for them the State of Israel would not have been born. If not for them, I would not have been born. They did the filthy work that enables my people, my nation, my daughter, my sons, and me to live.

      see how caring he is while he condones genocide? that's a true liberal zionist.

    • you were right phil, if this isn't proof positive lauder's article was "huge" i don't know what is. what seemed to me more of an "everybody's saying it .. more handwringing" .. because of who lauder is, his article really hit a nerve where it counts. thanks for the awesome recap of the fallout.

      and what, pray tell, is the big big big deal about assimilation? why would anyone think it would be anything but normal for jews who live in america to assimilate with other locals? i mean, what is the point of living in some cloistered world and not mingle w/other americans? it doesn't mean you can't still be jewish. crazy. people (including jews) don't think israel is a rogue state because of their association w/other americans, people think it's a rogue state because -- it's a rogue state!

  • Criticism of Women’s March leaders reminiscent of attacks on Jesse Jackson 30 years ago
    • it's an awesome site bumblebye. i've followed them on twitter since i first discovered them about a year ago. it's sort of mindblowing what's going on with the labour party in the UK. the attacks on corbyn are unrelenting.

    • bumblebye, it seems all hecks breaking loose in the UK today, with this latest smear plus the perfectly justifiable owen smith sacking. check out this old skwawkbox article, spot on https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/25/6-desperation-tactics-labour-insiders-expect-the-right-to-use-now/

    • keith, i was sort of blown away recently when i found out "globalist" was now off limits according to greenblatt. i thought that's like crazy, since it means "a person who advocates the interpretation or planning of economic and foreign policy in relation to events and developments throughout the world". and while i don't advocate global economic planning (at all!), there's no way i don't advocate interpreting foreign policy "in relation to events and developments throughout the world". i think of a person such as myself as a globalist, certainly in my analysis. but maybe i have just been operating under wrong definitions. either way, i totally resent being informed a term or word is now off limits based on some past reference. crazy!

      and re "Charging anti-Semitism appears to be the one-size-fits-all weapon", this was my main take away from AJ's undercover UK sting. the underlying theme (which i wrote about). and since hearing of the still unpublished AJ US undercover lobby sting, someone (maybe ali abunimah i can't recall) revealing there was a clip in it that said the accusation of anti semitism, as a tool, had lost, or was losing, its usefulness. something about how the US series focused on accusation of anti semitism as a weapon. wish i could recall where i read that.

    • thank you Eric Morgenson, very interesting. especially regarding history i have heard about but am not that familiar with -- what happened w/jesse jackson and andrew young. i have some other ideas especially wrt that link to the commentary article. but first, a couple questions.

      Supporters of Jesse Jackson believed that the Jewish criticisms of Jesse Jackson were far too harsh. Jackson himself argued this shortly after making the comments, saying that Jewish groups did not take the threats against him by the Jewish Defense League and radical groups. [1]

      do you mean jackson said 'Jewish groups did not take the threats against him by the Jewish Defense League and radical groups' seriously?

      When African American leaders including Jackson openly voiced their support for the Palestinians, or even the idea that Palestinians exist and should have the right to meet with the United States diplomatically.

      When African American leaders including Jackson openly voiced their support for the Palestinians, or even the idea that Palestinians exist and should have the right to meet with the United States diplomatically, what happened? it "show how much the Jewish community was changing? " or it demonstrated "clearly defined limits" to jewish liberalism?

      i just wanted a little more clarity. because friedman's article opened by distancing american jews (or american jewish groups) from Young’s toppling and implied his resignation was strictly a state dept affair basically divorced from jewish involvement. as i mentioned, i don't know the history there but i find that almost unfathomable. wouldn't it be more accurate to assume young was swiftly taken out, or any black leader rigorously opposed by signaling any alignment or sympathy towards palestinians, at least in part by pressure from within the jewish community?

      thanks

  • Memo to 'NYTimes:' Go to Ahed Tamimi's village in Palestine and report the truth
    • jackdaw, there's a whole slew of psychological explanations as to why people speak of themselves in the 3rd person (narcissistic, self-obsessed, detached from reality). i could cite more of them if you think it might be helpful.

  • Ahed Tamimi, 17, to serve 8 months in prison for slapping soldier in occupied village
  • Dear Senator Harris, You have been drinking the pro-Israel Kool-Aid
    • bolton??? NOOOOOO

    • Kisch is bending over backwards to make it seem that Harris is amenable to rational pursuasion on this issue.

      that wasn't really my take on it. contrary to you keith, i do think people who read Mondoweiss understand the "vast majority of Democratic politicians are in the Zionist Lobby’s pockets". but come to think of it, you didn't really say otherwise did you? you kind of brushed right past that question and diverted to what most mondoweiss readers thought of sanders/lobby.

      the nature of open letters, FB posts, as well as MW posts, is you get the opinion out there and expose. alice did that.

      It seems, though, that you have chosen to pander to moneyed Zionist interests. Your support for Israel is the diametric opposite of a path to peace in the Middle East. I am so sorry that you are not the politician that I was hoping you’d be.

      i thought it was gutsy and up front. not bending backwards at all. the whole "to make it seem that Harris is amenable to rational persuasion" thing is silly. as alice says, it's a rhetorical device to feign a degree of politeness or decorum when addressing someone in public. whatever, you are punching left. ok you won all better now. and one more thing, everyone with their eyes open knows harris is being prepped to take hillary's spot. letters like Alice's are pushback against that, and against centrists and the establishment thinking they can dictate who our candidates are, and think we'll roll over for them. it's the reason hillary lost, and the reason we are being inundated with the russiagate, to coverup that real reason she lost (a pt you also made).

      anyway, maybe you don't have to have the last word here keith. i wish many more of our readers would write hard hitting open letters to these pandering politicians like alice did.

    • Alice! it's been such a long time, great to hear your voice. i sincerely had no idea you were now 81, you always seemed so young to me. thanks for all your awesome activism over the years. sending my love and hope you get this message.

  • Jennifer Rubin likens Trump to Hitler in 'blood and soil' ethno-nationalism that threatens Jews
    • RoHa, it's weird. he's definitely "governed" and "campaigned" in support (inclusive of) american right wing jews (the jerusalem declaration obviously, and the efforts by flynn to lobby netanyahu's wishes (via trump) re the UN vote settlement vote). so how anyone could claim he's left jews out (too many examples in his administration alone) is beyond me.

  • Landmark 'NYT' op-ed by Jewish official blames Israel's leadership for its isolation (not BDS)
    • thanks for your clarification ismail, i understand now more about what you meant. as far as "shout out to the 2SS is a sort of breakthrough" i guess i didn't read it that way because in the 1st paragraph phil wrote "the article says nothing anyone hasn’t said before" and i understood "breakthrough" more as who said it, president of World Jewish Congress as well as "criticisms that we know are being voiced behind closed doors by Israel lobby execs." as for the rest, please see my recent response to eljay downthread. thanks again.

      (edit, one more thing. the article is popular, iow, this topic does interest many readers. one could argue phil's got his finger on the pulse.)

    • eljay, not about pressuring Israel to do the (just and moral) right thing

      this reminds me of hophmi's comment downthread, the empty List of self-critical Palestinian leaders:, as if lauder's handwringing is "self" criticism, which it is not.

      wrt to your (and possibly others) perception of "excitement", i can only speak for myself. and for me it's more akin to a sense of schadenfreude. unlike me, phil (and many others i presume) doesn't think anything will change until the jewish community changes. he could be right, maybe it's here nor there. when i first read lauder's nyt op ed it raised my eyebrows primarily because he was the president of the World Jewish Congress. but i didn't think what he said was particularly extraordinary to the extent that i didn't even send the link off to phil (albeit i did quote from it in another thread to make some point). i had already read numerous other handwringing testimonials by figures i hold no sympathy for. there's been a string of them and they've been coming in for years now although there's a real uptick. but lauder is not calling for an end to US taxpayer dollars and probably doesn't even mention occupation. he is not offering any suggestions for any meaningful actions ("the late, great two-state solution" is not meaningful action, as phil pointed out it's already dead).

      from memory (because i only get 10 free nyt articles a month and don't care to waste one on reading it again) i think he likely repeats and bemoans the situation of the rabbis not recognizing the jewishness of reform, conservative jews which apparently massively impacts the american jewish community. and this phenomena, repeated endlessly by all the handwringers, seems to personally bother, or upset, more than the fact of the occupation/apartheid. so there have been reports from inside the jewish community of "we have to get the kids back" and so now they're all standing in line to get their op eds published demonstrating their personal efforts.

      so i sense we're watching this all play out in slowmo over the course of the decade or whenever it was beinart first wrote his earth shattering "crises" article, which was what many of us considered practical, ordinary, and quite predictable common sense. now maybe this "earth shattering" news of jewish youth, as well as the rest of the youth, turning their collective backs on zionism/israel, bores some people. maybe it's perceived as just not that important in the scale of things. maybe it seems somewhat self indulgent to track every single sign and pew poll. some fret, others bemoan, other relish it, others think it's a waste of bandwidth, some think it represents support for zionism or the perpetuation of it, some feel hope, the list is endless. and phil writes about it. it's part of what mondoweiss covers. i don't know if it "excites" phil, i can't speak for him. but whatever he feels it doesn't bother me in the least and i for one appreciate him documenting the gradual demise.

    • eljay, i sort of relish zionist handwringing over their youth. it reminds of the piped piper story. and none of that handwringing will bring those kids back into the zionist fold. once you see it, the apartheid, the injustice, there's no turning back.

    • bumblebye, did you read huffington post take down of Cambridge Analytica the other day. that was massive.

    • I see Lauder’s comments as less encouraging than Phil does. When folks like him talk about a 2SS, they mean a demilitarized Palestine without real sovereignty (i.e., no control over borders, airspace, etc) with the IDF deployed in the Jordan Valley indefinitely, Israel retaining all the colonies that “everybody knows will remain in Israeli hands after peace talks”

      ismail, could you cite what you mean by this so called "encouraging" wrt 2SS. phil called 2 state "dead" and "too late". yes, he called the article "huge", but not for the reasons you're suggesting. again, it would be helpful if you could cite what it is you're referencing. thanks.

      And as far as heaping the blame on the maniac religious settlers, this has always been a favorite ploy of “liberal” Zionists..

      yep, Lauder, is a zionist (not sure if he self identifies as the liberal variety) so that's to be expected.

    • And – at the tail end of the video – credit their *israeli* intelligence personnel with helping to win the right wing european elections.

      did you read haaretz's headline? "Israeli Spies and Honey Traps" https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/israeli-spies-and-honey-traps-the-dirty-tricks-cambridge-analytica-1.5918177

  • Schumer says he opposed the Iran deal because of 'threat to Israel'
    • are there any words — is there an expression left?

      lol! when they say "crisis" this is all they mean! that other stuff, like the occupation, the death and destruction? what crisis? hell no, they just don't want the kids to find out.

      Come gather 'round people
      Wherever you roam
      And admit that the waters
      Around you have grown
      And accept it that soon
      You'll be drenched to the bone.
      If your time to you
      Is worth savin'
      Then you better start swimmin'
      Or you'll sink like a stone
      For the times they are a-changin'.

    • so far it’s worked. gotta give them credit for that!

      sure, credit given. but note how the negative perception of israel has escalated in direct proportion w/the rise of the internet and public awareness, that train has left the station, and there's no going back now.

      It likely doesn’t occur to Schumer (or Lauder) that the “Jewish State” should change its policies

      one would have to have their head firmly stuck up ones arse or stuck in the friggin sand to not have it occur to them (i was being facetious in my original comment wrt 'not a very novel idea') changing their behavior might garner a different result. heck no, they just WON'T CHANGE. hence, the handwringing. there's no putting lipstick on this pig.

    • one might think it would occur to schumer (at some point) that perhaps pressuring israel to change their policies might produce results that would in turn change people's perceptions of israel for the better.

      when solving a problem sometimes you have to look outside the box. i don't think changing behavior to produce a different result is a very novel idea. i'd think it would be staring israel and schumer in the face. in fact, the growing awareness of their unwillingness to change their behavior could be what's driving public opinion against them. but we all know it's not just the appearance of them being unwilling to change (for we all know they've tried to alter that appearance time and again), it's that they won't change. as long as they keep being grassmowing fanatical a**holes, public opinion will only get worse.

    • yeah, the handwringing about jewish youth is happening full throttle. Ron Lauder, president of the World Jewish Congress, today in the nyt:

      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/opinion/israel-70th-anniversary.html

      By submitting to the pressures exerted by a minority in Israel, the Jewish state is alienating a large segment of the Jewish people. The crisis is especially pronounced among the younger generation, which is predominantly secular. An increasing number of Jewish millennials — particularly in the United States — are distancing themselves from Israel because its policies contradict their values. The results are unsurprising: assimilation, alienation and a severe erosion of the global Jewish community’s affinity for the Jewish homeland.

  • Video: Jewish settler looses attack dog on Palestinian shepherd and flock, maiming sheep
    • would be within his/her rights to shoot the dog.

      that ran through my mind too. but then i figured, given who they're dealing with here, it would probably result in this colonialist and his whacked out buddies, would not let anyone get away with killing their dog. and envisioned them invading the palestinian village in the middle of the night and killing some people for revenge -- and getting away with it, as usual. i think it's a given they value the life of their dog over that of the one who killed it. maybe 1000 fold or more.

      and palestinians have no rights in the WB, so the very concept of "within" their rights, is a non non sequitur; doesn't exist under israeli occupation.

    • mooser, i explain how to do it here: http://mondoweiss.net/2018/03/settler-palestinian-shepherd/#comment-910483 it works on (my) chrome browser.

    • sure, you can ask him till the cows come home kid. but it's unlikely you'll get very far. here's the deal, at a minimum i am going to assume you believe what you write -- i figure i owe you at least that. iow, i am not going to assume for the sake of argument you're deceptive, pretending, dishonest, or insincere.

      i've been quite specific, repeatedly. and as you pointed out earlier, i'm just a commenter here. you can carry on all you want in whatever style you want, but the way you're going about it (w/the argument someone is insincere and not taking their words at face value) the chance of it making any kind of impact, (imho) is zilch. ciao.

    • Riight. Tell me next that votes decide anything in the US. Or that the Madassalafi retards are “out front” just because they feel like it, not because someone, meaning the Zionist direction and the US, both roughly under the same BoD, has planned and organized that.

      why would i do that, i am not playing your strawmen games. as i just mentioned to the kid earlier http://mondoweiss.net/2018/03/settler-palestinian-shepherd/#comment-910492

      i see is that agency, of ongoing persistent extremism being acted out on the world stage, what’s happening in the WB, is a perfect example of extremists representing their ideology. (it also happens to be a perfect example of empire using extremists to further their cause, not that different than empire using isis to accomplish their imperial goals).

    • And what are “settler pogroms” about, if not a planned part of the Zionist genocide of the owners of the country?

      i get the feeling you think zionist genocide and religious ideology are mutually exclusive, when evidence suggests they are not. they work together hand in glove on the ground in the WB (as far as i am concerned).

      in the context of this settler attack, it’s still the religious ideology animating it. and if you or anyone else care to argue it isn’t go for it.

      Well, that’s exactly what we’re doing.

      not that i can see. the nature of animation is that it 'brings to life' adds color, highlights and exaggeration or whatever. i don't see you arguing religious fanaticism doesn't animate zionist genocide. in fact, i see you arguing quite the opposite when you write "And what are “settler pogroms” about, if not a planned part of the Zionist genocide of the owners of the country? "

    • kid, while we banter back and forth and argue our points at our leisure, some following the old article threads or perhaps the last 100 comment thread to follow the most recent conversations, others may be looking for the hottest, most compelling or fresh news on twitter or haaretz or nyt and volley literally 100's of emails or list serves w/tips from readers or staff and writing articles about those tips. maybe a person like that literally doesn't have the time or interest to follow or read all those comments or to respond to every argument or critique. that's just one scenario in which someone might not be dodging your "issue" kid.

      when i write my senator or call her office with a complaint, i don't necessarily think she's dodging me if she doesn't call me back and respond to my argument (of course if i were donating a million dollars to her campaign i might expect better treatment!). sometimes a spade is just a spade, who knows. but what occurs to me is that unlike others, you did get a personal response which is not that common around here (people direct comments and critiques at phil all the time) and instead of taking his words, his response to you, at face value, for some inexplicable reason you choose to believe he is dodging the issue because he doesn't agree with you.

      I don’t understand the relevance your suggestion as to why I should make an argument about the non-existence of religious extremism

      the nature of religious extremism dictates the extremist's actions. if ones argument is that "settlers do NOT represent a religious ideology" ("you choose... the side of the Zionists, by saying that the settlers pursue a religious ideology") presumes violent actions of the settlers are not driven, at least in part, by religious fanaticism. this presumption, imho, as phil tried to point out, is reductive. because, imho, it denies the agency of religious extremism as a whole. and i say this because what i see is that agency, of ongoing persistent extremism being acted out on the world stage, what's happening in the WB, is a perfect example of extremists representing their ideology. (it also happens to be a perfect example of empire using extremists to further their cause, not that different than empire using isis to accomplish their imperial goals). and because i see it as that perfect example, and from your words i assume you do not. it calls into question if you believe in the agency of religious fanatics at all. that's why i wrote " if you care to make the argument there are no religious fanatics, no religious extemists, that they do not exist, then do so.”

      I may well be intellectually below your level

      oh i don't think you're intellectually beneath. quite the contrary, when i was a kid i wouldn't have even had the guts to step in it like you're doing. but i probably have more experience making arguments than you do.

    • If my comments are ignorant, authoritative, or presumptuous, then present your counter-arguments, show me in which way they are so. If, as I suspect, you are not interested in that, fine...

      i was referencing one specific comment, borrowing your own words: "sorry if I hurt your tender feelings -- I am a strong believer in calling a spade a spade."

      as for "authoritative" "presumptuous" and "ignorant", this comes to mind: "settlers do NOT represent a religious ideology ....refrain from conflating"

      And, no, I do not think that people who don’t agree with (such as you) are lying.

      really?

      dis·in·gen·u·ous
      ˌdisənˈjenyo͞oəs/Submit
      adjective
      not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
      synonyms: insincere, dishonest, untruthful, false, deceitful, duplicitous, lying, mendacious; hypocritical

      how do link to a specific comment on another Mondoweiss page?

      click on the users name and go to their archives. locate the comment. click on the time stamp of that specific comment. copy/paste the url. example: http://mondoweiss.net/2018/03/settler-palestinian-shepherd/#comment-910349

      Philip Weiss March 19, 2018, 10:08 am
      You’re being reductive/ideological.
      A lot of these racists quote the bible. Ben Gurion made a shidduch with religious parties.
      Bad people use religion and good people use it too.

      I am not interested in mudslinging.

      i guess that depends on ones definition of mudslinging. because if i accused you of merely acting as if you were against the occupation while providing cover for Zionists, i'd be slinging mud at you. for sure.

    • Irrelevant when discussing the nature of Zionism

      the article wasn't about the nature of zionism. the reference phil used (wrt zionism) was beinart's article, the crises of zionism, and book by the same title (albeit i have not read the book but one imagines it's about the same thing) as well as Lauder's article which i did read (and referenced this morning in a different thread) and ben ami (whose commentary phil referenced i have not read). having read both beinart and lauder the reference to the so called "crises" -- was the handwringing over jewish youth and lack of support for israel and how it doesn't 'look so good' so the millennials are turning away.

      so it's in this context, and the context of this video, he wrote "American Jews still cannot turn against the religious ideology that animates this settler". which many of them can't. there's nothing about the post per se about the "nature of zionism" (although there have been many articles about that). again, his reference as i read it was in relation to settler pogroms.

      if paranam, or you for that matter, want to write about the nature of zionism do so and send it in, i bet adam and phil would be interested. or the comment section is a great place to talk about the nature of zionism. but in the context of this settler attack, it's still the religious ideology animating it. and if you or anyone else care to argue it isn't go for it.

      both seem to work and, as with any mass propaganda, superstition appeals to more people. Foot soldiers have no say and no participation in decisions.

      there's no difference between the foot soldiers and the settlers in the knesset -- so yeah, they make plenty of decisions. and the guy who set the dog on them made that decision, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the settlers are out front in this enterprise (which serves the state in the colonial project).

      What moves all Zionists, necessarily and by definition, remains racism.

      oh really. you think it's racism motivating fundamentalist christians to support israel. because last i heard it was second coming. not that they are not racist, but it's not racism that makes them believe christ is coming back once all the jews are in israel (and other biblical signs and conditions i am not familiar with).

    • you choose 1 side of the divide, i.e. the side of the Zionists, by saying that the settlers pursue a religious ideology.

      You do the same when you talk about “liberal” Zionists; Zionism is a purely racist ideology, so liberal Zionist = liberal racist = does NOT exist.

      Now, it is your right to choose sides.... But please be upfront about it, instead of being disingenuous

      this is amusing because this mindframe, of you thinking you're right, accusing someone (anyone?) who doesn't agree of being a zionist, and making a division between either agreeing with you or being a racist, and then pretending like you have some kind of authority to make people choose between affirming your opinion or being on the other side of this so called "divide" you've created in your mind. and then doubling down and saying "it is your right" to choose and then assuming the only reason someone might not share your view is because they are being disingenuous and not up front.

      no one has to make a choice of even considering what you, an anonymous person, is writing. this is the comment section of a website. people share their opinions, we argue, but what consequence is there for anyone who doesn't take you up on this 'choose one side of the divide' instruction?

      nothing.

      if you don’t but then I will continue taking you to task over this

      like who cares? how do you take anyone to task here, by making an ignorant authoritative presumptuous comment? and talk about stating the obvious, that phil is "free" to ban you. i'm just not understanding how whatever you're saying holds any kind of threat at all.

      apparently, you don't think stating your opinion or disagreeing with phil (or anyone for that matter) is persuasive enough, maybe you think it has more weight if you make accusations of deception (essentially, 'anyone who doesn't agree w/me is lying') if they don't share your opinion? rethink.

    • he's not dogging anything paranam. if you care to make the argument there are no religious fanatics, no religious extemists, that they do not exist, then do so. not in islam, not in christianity and not in judaism. otherwise, tell us who those religious fanatics are, in judaism

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah%27s_Donkey

      In Israel, the phrase "the Messia's Donkey" can also refer to the controversial political-religious doctrine ascribed to the teachings of Avraham Yitzhak Kook which claims that secular Jews, which represent the material world, are an instrument in the hands of God whose purpose it was to establish the State of Israel and begin the process of redemption, but upon its establishment they would be required to step aside and allow the Religious-Haredi public to govern the state. According to this analogy, the secular Jewish public are the "donkey", while the Religious-Haredi public who would take their place represent a collective quasi-Messianic body.

      they represent a racist political ideology.

      zionism is a racist political ideology. and while these religious fanatics might "represent" the goals of the (once) secular colonizing government, they are fueled by religious fanaticism.

  • 'I found a system of segregated roads' -- Anna Baltzer's path to activism
  • AIPAC is suddenly getting a lot of bad press, in Jewish papers and 'Washington Post'
    • jett, my hunch is that he's speaking metaphorically. and instead of to "imply censure", i read it to imply "a license to criticize" AIPAC. as if they've not been licensed (authorized or given permission) in the past. to phrase it another way would be: because of the injury mere high school students have done to another powerful lobby, the National Rifle Association, reporters are now licensed to criticize AIPAC (maybe on the same path-to-pariah status....).

    • yourstruly, there's an embed to segal's senate campaign website under his name in phil's article (above).

      https://www.segalforsenate.org/

      1. Cardin is a vehicle of AIPAC, the American-Israeli Public Affairs Committee, only second to the NRA in its influence over Congress. AIPAC carries the agenda of Bibi Netanyahu, for Israel and, unfortunately, too often for the United States as well. Twenty-nine years ago, I founded the Jewish Peace Lobby (www.Jewishpeacelobby.org) as an alternative vision of what it means to be pro-Israeli. This campaign is the first time we, or anyone, has challenged AIPAC electorally, and challenged their tight grip on Congressional action on all things directly or indirectly related to Israel.

      2. AIPAC/Cardin defends and shelters the aggressive settlement activity of the current Israeli government. This is destroying the possibility of the two-state solution, and thus, necessitates an Israeli choice between being a Jewish state or being a democracy. It is clear that democracy is losing in that contest. This is a heart breaking tragedy, and must be fought with all we have got.

      3. Secondly, Cardin, again aligned with AIPAC, joined with all 54 Republican Senators in opposing the Iran Nuclear agreement negotiated by the Obama Administration. President Obama told us that the choice was either between the nuclear deal or the use of force against Iran. Bibi wanted an American attack. John Kerry confirmed this publicly a month ago. In effect, Ben Cardin voted for war against Iran. Anything he says to the contrary is BS.

      4. Cardin, in his blank-check support of any Israeli government policy introduced legislation that would felonize (up to 20 years in jail) any American who joined and supported a boycott of the Israeli settlements, if that boycott was called by the United Nations or any of our European allies. The ACLU has condemned this as un-Constitutional, as has my excellent Congressman, Jamie Raskin, formerly a Professor of Constitutional Law.

      Further, I join the Congressional Black Caucus in calling on Israel to halt the deportation of African refugees seeking asylum in Israel. Of course, Israel has to have control of its borders, but as a country that calls itself the Nation State of the Jewish People, Israel must be true to our people's historical experience. We must remember Exodus 22:21 "And a stranger shalt thou not wrong, neither shalt thou oppress him; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt."

      DOMESTIC POLICY

      I am running against Cardin from the left. My campaign banner is Bread and Roses, the banner carried by women textile workers in their historic strike in Lawrence, Massachusetts, in 1912.

      Bread basically means A Decent Society, one in which basic human needs are met, even for the poor. Roughly speaking this is Bernie Sanders. I support the goals of Bernie's agenda, and most of his policy positions. If elected, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and Jerome Segal will form a solid tripod, to which I will add my strengths and benefit from theirs.

      (more at the link)

    • awesome story elizabeth. thanks.

    • Putin/Russia is not “Soviet” any more.

      i don't think he meant russia. i think he meant soviet-style. in lock-step, under strict control.

  • 'Someone is paying Trump to do it' -- Pompeo elevation shows neoconservative lock on foreign policy
    • Well, I don’t see how 1948 shows that there will be no population movement.

      i think you read it wrong.

      the lesson of 1948. There is nothing more miserable for an ordinary Palestinian than to be in exile.

      iow, they won't be fleeing en masse again. of course Maghlawatan could be wrong. instead of more outright israeli slaughter (mowing the grass) israel could set up extermination camps or something w/trains to either certain death or exile while the whole world watched. i mean, anything is possible. palestinians could be used, again, like lab rats. but something tells me they'd hold their ground and choose the 'give me liberty or give me death' option.

    • you nailed phil

  • American Jews need Israel to be safe -- megadonor Paul Singer
    • kay, i read somewhere recently (sorry, can't remember where) there was some organizational rallying of the jews handwringing event over the new polls. it was a full on 'got to get the youth back asap!' type event. so i think this is one of the memes they came up with double downing around. frankly, don't think it will work so well because it's been around so long the kids have all heard it, and they like it here already. i don't think it's new tho. maybe this particular rallying cry but "jews need israel to be safe" is not new.

    • Roger Cohen said that if you put a gun to his head, he’d say Israel was worth the price the Palestinians had to pay for its establishment because it has made Jews around the world safer:

      and yet, he said it without anyone putting a gun to his head!

  • There are only two kinds of Jews, Schumers and Feinsteins
    • achievement is often related to how much one receives, opportunities. for example if you have 2 schools and one of them gets extraordinary outside funding and all the kids get free lunches and healthcare it stands to reason the students will achieve more than a school where the kids are dragged out of bed and night and shot in the streets and they have a limited budget of books etc.

      if you live in a community where there are an abundance of grants and scholarships and alumni admissions programs that practically guarantee your siblings and heirs go to the best schools then it stands to reason your community will achieve more than in oppressed communities. so yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if Jews have achieved disproportionately in their contribution to humanity. but that doesn't mean all those contributions are in the best interest of humans collectively. for example, the occupation contributes much human suffering.

      the white race has achieved a lot, often at the expense of others. but collectively, if you test drugs on humans from one side of the world, or bomb them to smitheriens -- ask those people how much it matters whether their suffering or death is worth it for the benefit of mankind. everything is relative.

      i don't necessarily think it's measurable. because you could take the achievements of one man, like bill gates, and look at how much his influence or achievements could benefit mankind after his death. or alexander fleming, whose discovery changed the world of modern medicine. i mean, how do you measure all of mankind's achievements and determine who's contributed more collectively once you balance that with the contributions that have had a negative impact?

      how? one scenario. one man owns a diamond mine. he takes all his riches (all of them, not 50%, which are huge in the billions) and spends it on the arts and opera and medicine and everything good. when you measure his achievements how much credit do you give to the children who slaved and died for that persons wealth? all the unspeakable wars and murder that happened across the globe, do the victims get any credit for that one man's achievements, or all the achievement of those he funded? because he got rich of the backs of others -- many who paid with their lives. so isn't it those people who should get some credit for making those achievements possible? the backs other walked on to get to the top. each one of those backs belongs to a person.

    • lalalalala i can't hear you.

    • maybe in the context of "Jews [in the senate] who care about the opinions of all people and those [in the senate] who care only about the opinions of Jews" one could claim There are only two kinds of Jews. You are either a Chuck Schumer or a Dianne Feinstein.

      but outside of that, i find it sort of repulsive to imagine every jew being either a Chuck Schumer or a Dianne Feinstein. or the idea of Feinstein as 'caring about the opinions of all people'. and there are way too many instances of feinstein not 'caring about all people' to list.

      that said, as a constituent of hers, i can't even recall a time i thought of her as particularly jewish. it's not something she puts out front or is overt about, at all that i know of (disclosure, i am not a close feinstein watcher). in fact, i think she was in office quite a few years before i even connected, 'oh feinstein is a jewish name'. i swear it didn't really cross my mind. i read about her mom being sort of a b*tch and feinstein being unruly as a child and how they put her in a catholic school so the nuns could squash that, which apparently worked, for whatever that is worth.

      feinstein is a highly polished politician but frankly, i don't think of her as particularly attached to israel. whereas w/schumer i can't think of anything he's more associated with than his jewishness and his protection of israel. so yes, they are radically different.

      i'd have to say tho phil, this premise? this "only two kinds of Jews.... Schumer or a... Feinstein. " what were you thinking? and you know i am a big fan of yours.

      You can make any other distinction you please. Religious observance, intermarriage, Hebrew-literacy, Christmas trees, but this is the most meaningful one because it defines our time.

      imho, the most meaningful distinction (re jewish people) that defines our time is between zionist vs non or anti zionist. and the kind of jew "who care only about the opinions of Jews", one akin to what yakov hirsch might describe as a "Hasbara culturist", would be one end of the spectrum and could be represented by a schumer or a goldberg or netanyahu. but look at the wealth of beauty on the other end of the spectrum and tell me you've chose feinstein? why not amira hass? or jackie walker, or adam? or one of many many others?

      i have to give this article a thumbs down!

  • Gideon Levy on Israeli denial: 'Anyone who raises a question is demolished'
    • thank you phil! it always amazes me how much you accomplish.

    • Kudos.....But, Phil, you need to post this on every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday on Mondoweiss. As you know, readership is far less on Saturday and Sunday.

      just thought i'd mention this was published yesterday, on a friday.

  • 'NYT' free speech advocate Bari Weiss reportedly helped bring down a Columbia dean over 'intellectual heresy'
  • Rabbi Cardozo: outlawing circumcision would 'end the state of Israel'
    • Nonsense. They are both in the category Mutilation

      nonsense. female circumcision is the removal of an entire sex organ (if you'd like to argue women can have orgasms without one -- have at it -- but count me out). that is not the same thing at all.

    • jon, where's the appropriate place to have a discussion about it? when the times of israel publishes this editorial by the rabbi, is it better form to just shut up?

      i don't like the topic. and it's one many people are having in the US (in europe i think a lot of people are having it) and given that the vast majority of people it impacts are not jewish, don't you think it's a little jewish-centric to think people would base their opinions, or make these kinds of decisions, moral judgements or ethical decisions, whatever you want to call them, on such a personal issue, based on anti semitism, zionism, or how they feel about jews one way or the other?

      i am with oldgeezer on this one. "People are allowed to have an opinion about the propriety of nin essential surgery being performed on non adults. You couldn’t be more ethnocentric if you tried".

      i read some of the many comments over at the times of israel. a lot of jews are speaking up about it there (granted people who have strong feelings about this are more likely to be drawn to this discussion). but what do you think of the times of israel publishing that? or is it only ok publishing pro circumcision articles? are you really being fair when you write things like

      We’ll remember them next time we see that “I’m anti Zionist, not anti Jewish” slogan.

      seriously, is that a fair thing to say about a very controversial procedure that a lot of people are feeling anguish about and discussing. i would urge you to go read the comments over at TOI.

    • jon, you do know all those female circumcisions in africa and thereabouts are not done because elders deliberately set out to harm those girls, and for thousands of years, millions of parents didn't purposely “abuse” their children? Do you realize how crazy that allegation is?

      they didn't contemplate abusing or hurting the girls, they did it for their future prospects. for the good of their community and a perpetuation of the norm/tradition.

    • people could much more easily be sued by their circumcised children.

      rich kids who don't want to wait around for their inheritance!

      according to this report https://hcup-us.ahrq.gov/reports/statbriefs/sb45.jsp in west only 31.1% of male newborns are circumcised "before their release from the hospital". but it's on the decline all across the U.S.

    • citizen, yes i know. and i think it's barbaric.

      jon, when i said i wouldn't put it on my front burner what i meant was it's not something i would push for here in the US and the reason why is as i stated "if religion and people’s faiths were not so protected in our society it would be banned and illegal."

      as an atheist i'm not that concerned with protecting peoples faith and religion. but there's a fairly well trodden history of fascists states trampling on people's religious freedoms so as a citizen (vs a religious person) i tend to support those freedoms. i would really not like a state forcing a religion down my throat hence i hesitate in restricting others religious freedoms. while it may be different in europe i am not sure in the US, at this time, we could embark on making circumcision illegal without a huge fight that could open a whole can of worms about other things, separation of church and state as well as states rights. i'd like to think given time, science education and human nature this practice might die off. so, as i said, not on my front burner. but if i was in a voting booth and it were on the ballot -- i'd be very tempted to either not vote or lean towards making it illegal. kids die from this. it's not a good idea. and circumcised adult males, they don't really know what they're missing now do they?

      but i would not go out of my way to support its banning or advocate its banning because as a non religious person i can't really put myself in the mindframe of a religious person to know how much it means to them. the mouth thing? totally gross and rife with potential problems. but i don't put it in the same category as female circumcision, which i definitely think should be illegal. everywhere. but it's also the sort of thing that if you make it illegal people who really want it will do it anyway. like banning abortions.

      i mean what are you going to do, send the state around to people's houses to make sure their kids have not been circumcised? arrest doctors and parents? then you potentially have people not taking their kids, for the duration of their childhood, to all but certain (illegal) doctors so they won't get busted. can of worms.

    • My question to you and to the other commenters on this thread

      glad you qualified this with "other commenters on this thread" because until now i have yet to comment on the thread. generally i stay out of online circumcision conversations. it's unlikely anything that could be said i can add to.

      nonetheless, i'll add to it. it's extremely personal for most people and it was extremely personal for me when the option was offered at the hospital after my son was born. luckily i had no argument from his father.

      i believe, if religion and people's faiths were not so protected in our society it would be banned and illegal. but is this an issue i would put on my front burner? probably not. but do i think society would be better off without it? of course -- it's barbaric.

  • Israeli left leader praises Trump and bewails 'Palestinian majority' and 'Palestinian narrative'
    • all this handwringing from israeli jews over what people think of them bores the heck out of me. i'm reminded of a quote i read in a nyt book review:

      "The deepest truth is that Israel so far has not tried the one thing that could address the underlying grievances that give life to its terrorist enemies, trading land for peace. ….. it still means that the most obvious approach Israel might try to find a strategic end to the problem of terrorism is off the table."

      https://twitter.com/nytimesbooks/status/971777668873113600

      the eternal victims, more worried about what people think than fixing the problem.

    • We need them [people who are now in universities] to promote together with us solutions to the challenges that we have, we just can’t wait for that to arrive…...I don’t want us to wait and to rely on the Palestinians .......– time is actually serving them. Time is actually serving their interest in having a Palestinian majority between the Jordan River and the Sea. This is not a risk that we can take.

      'promoting solutions' is not a replacement for changing policy, which israel refuses to do. she "just can't wait" for young people to get back on board supporting israel and promoting israel but doesn't seem to realize it's palestinians suffering the burden of waiting, and their supporters, including young people, can no longer 'just wait' around for israel to change.

      bottom line, she's barking up the wrong tree. she's in the knesset and it's her fellow MPs and israelis she should be yammering up (and her so called "99%" of israel's security establishment allegedly supporting 2SS).. because people lose faith in 'promoting solutions' when the very people doing the promoting don't follow through. if she doesn't "want .. to wait and to rely on the Palestinians" then make 2 viable states. and if she can't, or won't, then she should embrace BDS, which appears to be the only effective way to pressure israel.

      and if she represents israeli "left", oy vey!

  • Zionism, anti-Semitism, Israel — and the UK Labour party
    • a derogatory word for Jews? what's next, banning the term zionist?

    • oh yeah, "the irrational hatred of israel" yada yada yada. meanwhile he shirks off claims that accusations of anti-Semitism run rampant. remember the private meeting at the labour conference:

      http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/accusations-semitism-primary/

      We’ve gotta say in the language of social democracy, I think, these people are misogynistic, they are homophobic, they are racist, they are anti-Semitic, they are reactionary. I think that’s what we need to say, it’s an important message.

    • it appears CAA's new complaint is now splashed all over the news. (15 articles so far) https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5753438/corbyn-facebook-group-anti-semitic-posts/

      a "secret" FB group w/ "thousands of members ", corbyn being one of them for not sure how long but up until 2015. although he didn't sign himself up apparently. some in the group had included some anti semitic postings w/links (david duke!). frankly, i'd be more concerned if there were only 8 or 9 members, or 20. even 100. but with thousands of members how could anyone read most of what was posted. they said he commented on thread where someone used the term "zio", which apparently is an off limit abbreviation in the UK -- for some unknown reason.

      you'd think the UK would get really sick of this after awhile. and this is the last paragraph in one of the articles

      Last night, the Government pledged £13.4million for security at Jewish schools, synagogues and community buildings amid fears over anti-Semitic hate crime and terrorist threats. Home Secretary Amber Rudd announced the cash, which follows £38.5million since 2015.

      that's over £50 million in 3 years. jeez.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5475277/Corbyn-Facebook-group-posted-slurs-against-Jews.html#ixzz597z3p0Vi

    • fantastic! thanks tom. i've been glued to the scandalous faux anti semitism press coming out of the UK since corbyn's rise. and the AJ investigation thoroughly exposed how Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) accusations of anti semitism became “the defining narrative actually now”.

      and your footnotes are crucial... off to open a bunch of them now.

  • In Gaza
  • Nine reasons Israel is not a 'progressive paradise'
    • I’m not saying that it would be easy or that it would be done for the “right reasons”.

      i didn't mean to imply you were suggesting either of these things. mostly i was posting the impracticality of this due to demographics. and, i see your point. but back to the impracticality, (and certainly not to make light of what appears, currently, to be a genocide of kurds by turkey) as you can see from this map here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Federation_of_Northern_Syria this colored part of the map is the chunk of syria the US seeks to chop off. it includes Deir ez-Zor, location of syria's largest oil field. the kurdish population in syria is less than 10% and they could not win a democratic vote in this region although they probably could in a few very small regions. but these region are separated by a large land mass from the kurdish region in iraq.

      the other (big) problem is that none of the states that would be bordering this state want a kurdish state, which would present huge problems in terms of trade, security, everything. this includes turkey, iraq, iran and syria. plus, all of those states know the survival of this kurdish state would require the constant presents of US military bases for it's survival. so it would be massively destabilizing for the region. not that differently than israel destabilizes the region.

      and it was wrong of me to write " i’m not really clear how syria oppresses their kurdish citizens, if at all." because being not clear about something is not the same as implying they never oppressed the kurds, which i am sure they have. i think it would be simpler, and a lot less bloody, to accomplish kurdish freedom by lobbying for rights within the states they currently live. but allying w/US-IS to grab the largest oil region 25 million people depend on for their national resources to give to a minority is a mistake --- mostly because "within a defined “Kurdish” geographic region" you'd have to ask 'who's doing that defining'? ie: most of the people in Deir ez-Zor are not kurdish and never have been historically or otherwise.

      that said, i am no expert on this topic.

    • the geographic region comprising (claimed) Kurdistan were to vote democratically to establish an independent – and secular and democratic – Kurdish state of and for all of its citizens, immigrants, expats and refugees, equally, I’d support it.

      one of the problems, as i see it, is the US/IS juggernaut wants a huge region of syria included in this proposed state and it includes an incredible oil rich region supporting syria. plus, although there are kurds in this region, they are not the majority by any means. hence, it is highly unlikely "if the people of the geographic region" of syria targeted for this proposed state voted, they would choose to break off from syria. and i'm not really clear how syria oppresses their kurdish citizens, if at all. it's an empire land grab the US wants to control where we already have lots of military bases. this has nothing to do with "kurdish freedom" per se.

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