Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 22722 (since 2009-07-30 20:11:08)

Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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  • An American girl in Gaza
    • She was fussed over, adored, given gift after gift and questioned about her life in America. The children of Gaza were thrilled that a child from America was there: playing with them, eating with them, dancing with them, and seeing them.

      this really reminds me of my time in gaza. the children were overwhelming. i can't describe it, i will never forget them.

  • Once again, 'NYT' says Judaism = Zionism
    • Here in the UK he is perceived variously as a sick joke / a clown / a psycho and for some a mixture of all three.

      yeah, we got that going on here too. along with feeling he's gross and repulsive. a couple months ago i was on foreign holiday w/some american ex pats and over dinner, everyone was sort of dumbfounded as to what to even say about him. i don't think the shock has worn off for a lot of people. and the hits just keep coming.

      he will end up having to do the actual job of being a President which will be way beyond his mental ability

      once the layers of bombast are peeled away, i'm fairly convinced he's an idiot. the result of a 2 party system that's totally gone awry.

    • Kenneth Marcus has disgracefully set up a “war” between Jews and Blacks who support or don’t support BDS.

      the marcus types will say anything and throw anyone under the bus for their cause.

      why the nyt goes along with this knowing damn well there's no unified jewish voice on college campuses is beyond me. and those other students, you know, the ones who are neither "Jews and other minorities" (like me -- who actually -- shockingly -- happen to still represent a majority in this country last i heard ) do we have any opinion? are we even worth mentioning? not according to the nyt. as if israel/palestine is some side issue that only matters for niche minority student groups or identity politics. please!!! it's simply stunning.

      the issue of free speech on campuses and the palestine exception https://palestinelegal.org/the-palestine-exception/ threatens our constitution. it's an everybody issue, not a 'jews and minorities' issue.

    • Zionism is to Judaism as Trump is to conservatism

      sorry Maghlawatan, but i think this trivializes the detrimental impact zionism has had on judaism. trump is a flash in the pan. i say that knowing he could screw up the country for years to come. there will be no massive cult, no trumpism in 100 years. won't happen. no radical shift in the meaning of conservatism or the direction of the gop. he will be a footnote in history.

  • Braying donkeys
  • Palestinian-American businessman, 57, is arrested by ICE in Cleveland, shocking supporters
  • What's wrong with colonialism?
    • To rephrase it, In order to further your political aims: Does the motivation mitigate acts morally equivalent to rape?

      jon, for the purpose of this discussion, in relation to this argument, the crime of rape is allegorical. in both the attacks you referenced, one in '78 the other'79, both from roughly 4 decades ago, as well as the killing of the illegal settler rabbi more recently, allegorically speaking, the perpetrators of all those attacks are the victims of rape. wheras, their attacks were not morally equivalent to rape.
      only if one strips the context away from decades occupation, ethnic cleansing, the consequence of violent colonization (all the morally equivalent to rape), could one formulated a question such as yours -- which posits colonizers as civilians. allegorically, it doesn't work.

      16-year-old Samir Kuntar, who led the 1979 Nahariya attack, 19-year old Dalal Mughrabi, and 22 year old Ahmad Jarrar whom israel alleges perpetrated the recent attack on the illegal settler, allegorically speaking, all of them are victims of unspeakable humiliations, child sexual assault and mutilation. their entire childhoods stripped away.

    • Now your all going as bat shit crazy as the 90% (..) of Jews worldwide that identify as Zionist.

      DaBakr (and everyone down at hasbara central), again, when your intention is to express "you are" as in 'you are all going as bat shit crazy as.. Jews worldwide that identify as Zionist.' the correct spelling/abbreviation is

      you're

      "your" means "belonging to or associated with the person or people that the speaker is addressing." it's o so complicated, the distinction.

      there's so much other weird stuff in your comment worthy of decimation (think easy prey -- piranhas devouring fresh meat etc) but i'll leave it to others for now. enjoy:

    • Has anyone ever offered an argument to support this idea?

      sure, zionists.

      btw, jews have a long history here in the bay area. maybe some of them will make a compelling argument to claim it sometime in the future, certainly it's been the ancestral homeland for a lot of them -- along with nyc, LA and many other regions on this continent (and other continents too, clearly).

    • this is for jerry:

      Russian Jews have a historic right on which to base their land settling activity in the Crimea. This was the opinion expressed by Dr. Simon Dubnow, well known Russian Jewish historian, in an interview with the representative of the “Menorah.”

      If the question of Jewish right to colonize Crimea is raised it must be remembered that the Jews have a right to claim to be autochthons of all the northern coast of the Black Sea. As early as the ancient Bosphorean empire, before the Christian era, colonies of Hellenized Jews have flourished on the Black Sea coast. Inscriptions which have been found there dating back to the first cenutry prove the existence of organized Jewish communities in this region. These Hellenized Jews were followed by the Byzantine Jews in the fifth century of the Christian era. The Khazar empire, the leading classes of which adopted Judaism, existed between the eighth and eleventh centuries. Then, settlements of Jews and Karaites existed in this region between the thirteenth and eighteenth centuries. Finally, the Jewish colonies have existed there since the nineteenth century. The historic rights of the Jews to colonize Crimea and the entire Black Sea coast from Odessa to the Caucasus cannot be doubted and it is certainly desirable in a region where for two thousand years our ancestors have, under the Greeks and the Scythians, engaged in agriculture, that the Jews should again cultivate the land. However, the modern Scythians are more dangerous than the ancient-“Time# Danaos et dona ferentes” (I fear the Danaos even if they bring me gifts) he declared.

      sound familiar? https://www.jta.org/1926/12/30/archive/russian-jews-have-a-historic-right-on-which

    • That avoids the question.


      personally, i think your question is flawed because it sets up a false equivalence. while it's legitimate to ask how one could argue that an act morally equivalent to rape is mitigated by 'perpetrators had ancestors in the area' (because that is common hasbara pawned off as a legitimate explanation for a so called 'jewish right' to the land, routinely) palestinians have no equivalent propaganda to your hypothetical question. ie, they don't say 'our resistance to ethnic cleansing, apartheid and occupation' is justified because 'we have ancestors in the area'.

      so, in my mind, your question is not even worthy of an answer any more than me asking you why you beat your wife is worthy of an answer.

      you want a better response, ask a better question.

    • Robert F. Kennedy reporting .....“The Jews point with pride to the fact that....

      israeli hasbara agents telling kennedy something is a fact doesn't make it a fact. i think this fabrication about palestinians arriving em masse in the decade before the founding of the state to take advantage of jewish enterprise was thoroughly debunked after the joan peters book.

      kennedy was 23 in '48. how much history of the region do you think he knew before he got there and jews started 'pointing' things out to him w/pride. this kind of revisionism is not too in vogue today. You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. i think the lifespan of this particular lie myth, is over.

    • ah contraire jerry hirsch, the vast majority of them do not have a 3000 yr history in the region. over time, most of them never set foot there nor even tried to go there nor did the vast majority of their parents or grandparents or greatgrandparents. most jews, throughout history, just didn't make the effort. and that's the truth of it.

    • ritzl, here's the discussion http://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/curricularizing-program-suburban/#comment-903763

      thought i'd mention that it was not my intent to "equate" zionism with communism, per se. in a conversation about promoting zionism in the classroom (vs teaching it) a reader advocated classroom can be a safe place for students to feel comfortable with their Zionism. to which i asked

      shall chicago also offer high school classes where students can have safe spaces to feel comfortable in their communism? it’s one thing to learn about political constructs, it’s another to promote it at the taxpayers expense.

      and the reason i chose communism vs socialism or colonialism or any other kind of ism is because in this country communism is demonized and most high school kids already know that. whereas, both zionism and colonialism is a tad more benign (or promoted) here in elementary schools.

    • btw, aside from your "stated now in the clearest of terms that the Jewish state must come to its end" (note how you morphed that out of "End the settler-colonial structure aimed at creating and maintaining an exclusively Jewish state...")

      there's this:

      However, you haven’t defined colonialism as the Palestinians define it. For the Palestinians, the arrival of the Jews into the country is colonialism. The replacement of Israel will not be the end of conflict (“solution”) from their point of view.

      yeah, we all recognize this bs from the other day. ask how palestinians define something. and then any answer you get becomes 'you're not objective, that's your opinion and therefor biased'. it's like a non stop circle jerk w/you guys.

    • My intention is straight to the point. I want to hear in clear words what is the intention of the author.

      no, you were not "straight to the point" at all. had you been straight to the point you simply would have opened by asking what her intention was, you didn't. you went on some screed about how a "basic element is missing", as if any kind of critical analysis requires the analyst the offer up recipes for resolution (it doesn't). in fact, there are university courses on Comparative Foreign Policy Analysis, that do not require a students personal opinions. that is not what an analyst does. so this whole thing about what "should be included" could have simply been avoided by saying, 'what do you think should be done about it?' -- but you didn't.

      you turned your intro into an evaluation not of the critique, but the author. and found it lacking because what you (and only you) allege should be there. so, that's you setting your measly trap. and now when she gives her evaluation, you're moving in for the kill so to speak. asking for her intent. and claiming, you've been straight to the point at that!!!

      you crack me up nathan. you don't want to discuss the topic, you want this to be about the author. divert divert divert...let's talk about your intent. because it's fairly clear it isn't finding out hers. it's cornering her, slandering her. come on, you can do it. spill the beans nathan.

  • Targeted for nonviolent resistance: Israel seeks imprisonment of Palestinian activist Munther Amira
    • that video is so damning. what bullies the soldiers are. the soldiers do not want peaceful opponents. they are mean people.

  • Abbas confirms Trump tried to sell Abu Dis as Palestinian capital, in 'Oslo is dead' speech
  • Trump's line on 'shithole countries' is a mainstream view in Israel
    • hysterical kaisa!

    • yourself being the exception! because you used the term yourself, quoting eljay -- thereby perpetuating it. o what a tangled web we weave...

    • list? that is why i quoted the original usage:

      African states are all hellholes.... why should we expect Israel to be any different?

    • Page: 227
    • use of the phrase reinforces the description. If you don’t agree with it, don’t use it.

      he was quoting zionist jew http://mondoweiss.net/2014/03/african-seekers-invitation/#comment-653491

      if you do not agree with it jon, don't use it. but in avoiding eljay's point and going on some purity patrol citing the term again, by your own standards, aren't you reinforcing the description? the very thing you're accusing eljay of doing. and frankly, i find his quote of zionist jew's term effective.

      African states, in contrast, couldn’t care less about their “brothas.” The “refugees” are escaping from being persecuted by their brothas. Which population group, the former or the latter, would a state rationally want in it’s country? And tell me, African states are all hellholes, everywhere Africans go they fill their land with crime and poverty, why should we expect Israel to be any different? It’s doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting a different result. If the brothas want good government, they should’ve stayed under colonial rule.

      jon, the link is above. if the oozing racism offends you. go to the source.

  • What MLK's 'Letter from Birmingham Jail' tells us about Ahed Tamimi in a cold Israeli cell
  • After New Orleans City Council implicitly endorses BDS, officials say resolution was not about Israel
    • The JFGNO went on to say that while it “fully supports the values of human rights expressed in the resolution, we are deeply concerned about its unintended consequences relating to Israel ..."

      uh huh.

  • Ahed Tamimi should stay in prison because she might slap again -- Israeli ethicist
    • jeez, i post a quote of martin's on mlk day and he goes off on some rant. pff.

    • Or your[sic] a paid Palestinian hasbara agent,

      do you have any supporting links wrt "paid Palestinian hasbara agent(s)". because unlike paid bloggers for israel, of which there are several supporting links, i've never heard of people paid to blog for palestine. which would not be very economically smart because there are an over abundance of pro palestinian bloggers who do it for free.

      (which is very likely)

      even one article and advertisement/job opportunities?

    • speaking of law and order. MLK:

      "I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law."

  • Vic Mensa's searing piece in 'Time' on Israeli oppression is prefaced by clunky disclaimer re anti-Semitism
    • not sure i get what you're trying to say w/:

      might feel that his (supposed) antisemitism — that’s an accepted stereotype

      what "supposed" anti semitism -- stereotype? maybe it's your phrasing. what are you saying?

      "But since Mensa identifies himself as a black rapper ..., it is understandable that he ...might feel that his .. antisemitism — ... — would be all but taken for granted by many of his readers in the U.S. and Israel."

      i'm not reading between the lines am i? just removing all your caveats. i beg your pardon but i'm not really understanding your opinion. care to clarify? because it reads like you're saying that because he's a black rapper it's understandable he feels like his antisemitism is taken for granted (assumed) by his audience. if that's what you're saying i think it's a pretty out there assumption.

    • it unfortunate, when referencing state power, people feel the need to preface that reference with a defense of oneself. i have no certainty this was an editor's choice, much less "obviously" so. it could be that mensa has simply incorporated what has become a societal norm, to distance himself from a meme of "israel" = "the jewish people". a meme perpetuated by state power and our media.

      i'm not sure it "insults" the essay (a great essay). but it does sort of insult our intelligence. it's an insult to us all, as humanitarians or civil rights workers, we must address and defer to the propaganda of the oppressor before telling our stories. if it's important to mensa, to any of us, to address this issue of the state vs "jewish people" and/or anti semitism, for clarity's sake or any other reason, it's unfortunate one feels that message needs to preface the primary focus of the article.

      but maybe he was explaining this not to us, but to people who have been brainwashed. it's really true that out there in the world today people fear criticizing israel and we shouldn't. so maybe he was trying to reach those people.

      phil's right in that the article has nothing to do with Jewishness. but i can't agree with him mensa didn't write the preface.

    • grammy nominated Vic Mensa is an extraordinary voice. he's started a hashtag #WeCouldBeFree and #WeCouldBeFreeIf. check out his video

  • Liberal Zionists can't talk about the shooting of Mohammed Tamimi
    • the false equivalence is stunning.

      It begins with a boy, alone in a displaced persons’ camp in Italy in the aftermath of the Holocaust. There he is recruited to begin “training.” As the Jewish recruits prepare for life in Palestine, they learn Hebrew, and they run drills to sharpen their bodies and their minds. He arrives in Palestine just in time to be injured in combat at age 16. Of course, it is fiction. Still, I was struck by the similarities between the stories: a 16 year old boy, put in harm’s way and trained to struggle for the dream of a homeland. I thought immediately of Ahed and the Tamimis.

      except in one circumstance you have a child being trained as an armed soldier in combat practicing military exercises. the other, not.

      the tamimi children remain civilians. there's no army to back them up, no military training.

  • Israeli Jews will never accept Palestinians as equals -- Klutznick, chair of Americans for Peace Now
    • If you don’t see how radically new this is compared to the previous pledges, then I can’t help you.

      this is not new, much less "radically" new . google Mubarak Awad. the leader of a mass movement. he was deported by israel.

    • i don't think they are on the fence donald. i think the movement is made up of individuals and as a group they are focused on those (three) "basic rights and the implementation of international law."

      that's the focus and the conversation over 1S or 2S is just a distraction. it's always been used as a distraction as a divisive tactic. there's simply no need to choose one over the other when faced with an adversary who seeks to prevent both. i wrote about this in "the trap" http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/the-trap/

      this was written over 7 years ago. notice the "trend" i mentioned. that is no longer a trend, that is the primary hasbara defense applied by those who defend the occupation (i know, they don't come right out and say that's what they are defending -- but it is). and they've created this conversation for a reason. so people like you can adopt this equation, whereby bds has to make some stance wrt 1S or 2S. why? because if they make a choice it will make a difference? it won't. i'm telling you, it won't. palestinians have been bending over backwards for 2S for YEARS, and all they hear is how it's their fault it has not happened. no matter what you say, or they say, or anyone says, israel will not allow 2S of 1S w/equal rights. so let those rights be the priority and let the chips fall where they may.

    • the bds wishes me to suffer and in some cases to even die

    • what are you talking about yonah? maybe you should show concern the star of david is now associated with bombs, war crimes, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing if you're so concerned with flags.

    • it's been clear to a lot of people for a long time the 2SS is dead. maybe he doesn't realize this delay delay delay has made the situation worse, has killed off the chance for a 2SS. how could he be so blind? and here he is writing to jewish groups to denounce annexation. for all practical purposes hundreds and thousands of settlers would have to leave for there to be a viable palestinian state because of these decades of worthless negotiations. so maybe APN could figure out how to undo that while they're at it. APN is not a very powerful group. have they ever had even one member as part of the negotiation team? who do they think they are? what possibly logical reason could there be that could be done now that couldn't have be done in the last 50 years? or do they think the US will grow some balls and israel will voluntarily have some change of heart/agenda. might as well wait for godot.

      it makes perfect sense to advocate for equal rights in one state. it does nothing to hamper the goals of the 2 staters who are on a treadmill going no where. or more precisely two steps backward / one step hold. there's no step forward, it's like a ratchet. that's why it makes perfect sense to advocate for equal rights in one state. it doesn't hamper whatever the 2 staters are doing. we're not their problem. and if at anytime israel decides to get off it's high horse and allow two states or the US becomes some kind of equal broker -- which i think we all know will happen when pigs fly --- then palestinians can regroup and look at the new options.

  • Israeli soldiers shoot 3-year-old Palestinian child in the head during West Bank military training exercise
  • New Orleans adopts divestment measure proposed by BDS campaigners
    • catalan, could you link to this so-called prediction of a "quick" and "easy" release for ahed? although i somewhat recall the conversation i also recall you made that (false) claim/lie once before and if my memory serves me correctly, i proved you wrong. so cough up the proof.

      i also predicted soda stream would continue tanking, which it did. i first wrote about the stock while it was taking a nosedive less than a year later it had lost 2/3 of it's value. then it kept tanking. in 3 years it went from 72.81 down to the 12's and then hovered over 14 for awhile until it started creeping up.. after moving out of the illegally occupied palestinian territory. and look at all those lucky investors who held stock at 72.82 back in 2013. now, in 2018 those same stocks are worth a whopping 73.02. which means viola! they gone up .20 in 3 1/2 years-- it's taken them quite awhile to catch up if you ask me.

      it seems to be a pretty solid bet that whatever Annie says, expect the polar opposite. Good news for Teva

      oh heck yes, listen to catalan when teva's credit rating is cut into "junk territory" by Moody’s Investors Service -- go buy the stock. nows probably a good time during the layoffs. meanwhile, this is a dividend lots of israelis depend on for their pensions... and they are ending it.

      Generic drug manufacturer Teva’s stock has risen by 80% in the last couple of months! What’s been happening? Well, Teva continues to be in the news, after last month’s announcement that the pharmaceutical manufacturer would lay off 14,000 employees, approximately one quarter of its workforce. Teva also announced its intention to close manufacturing and research facilities around the world, and to omit its dividend.

      For Teva, headquartered near Tel Aviv and known in Israel as "the people's stock," omitting a dividend is a huge issue, as investors have come to rely on those dividends to finance personal consumption.

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/hershshefrin/2018/01/10/tevas-stock-price-surge-against-its-predictable-woes/#65bd80993d76

      Getting cut to junk status can increase a company’s borrowing costs. Moody’s is the second bond grader to downgrade the company to speculative grade, which can be a bruising rating change for a borrower because many investment-grade investors cannot hold bonds from a company that has two or more high-yield ratings.

      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-12/teva-s-debt-cut-to-junk-by-moody-s-adding-to-drugmaker-s-woes

    • The most horrendously racist bigoted and hateful members plead and cry they have “no specific goal

      hey, not to go to OT, but have you been following teva? seems like a good time to grab the popcorn no?

    • thanks jesse, for the excellent comprehensive coverage. and thank you new orleans!

  • Privileged American Jews are safe thanks to 'Israel's might'-- Roger Cohen
    • it's really hard to read. mind numbing.

      “…the dominant vocal Jewish leadership of America won’t stand for it…the Zionist movement knows [that it] can raise vast sums for Palestine by saying to donors, `There is no other place this poor Jew can go.'”

      so many could have been saved.

    • omg!! ;)

    • many surrogate homelands were potentially offered to Jews at precisely the time of the rise of Zionism. The Jewish masses rejected them all, .....Only Eretz Israel resonated

      Naftush fails to mention, during "the rise" of Zionism, the jewish masses also rejected the call to immigrate to what later became Israel.

      it appears the jewish masses, for centuries, had no interest whatsoever in making their way to jerusalem, palestine.

  • New Israel Fund's Daniel Sokatch exposes the bankruptcy of liberal Zionism
    • Israel does privilege only Zionist Jews.

      i think it's relative. wrt jews perhaps. but in relation to palestinians, even anti zionist jews are privileged. because (for the most part!), the state of israel and the armed forces of israel, and the border police etc, doesn't kill dissenting jews regardless of their politics. they are not targeted for death or execution.

      imagine a mob of dissenting jews. anti zionist or otherwise. when are they attacked with live ammunition? that may not seem like a "privilege", but in an apartheid state, it is.

    • The whole fiasco re the African “infiltrators” further proves that it is a Zionist-supremacist/White-supremacist ideology, not a “Jewish supremacist” one.

      i'd have to think more about that. the "fiasco re the African “infiltrators” " -- not sure they are truly recognized, by the Zionist-supremacist/White-supremacist ideology, as jews. and if so, that refusal is not a zionist refusal per se, it is a jewish refusal of recognizing the jewishness of the african community.

      when i said privileging jews was a tenent of zionism, i meant it. even non or anti zionist jews are privileged over and above palestinians, muslims, christians, or any non jews by the zionist entity. this is clarified in the nationality law.

      who is Sokatch addressing when he writes:

      Alongside its legislative strategy, the current government uses incitement, scapegoating and lies to suppress free speech and weaken Israeli democracy even further. Arabs, government watchdogs, independent media, the judiciary and those who defend democracy and equality, including NIF and our grantees, are explicitly singled out and demonized by government officials, including Prime Minister Netanyahu.

      and this:

      It deflects attention and demonizes its political opponents, who value democracy, equality, and human and civil rights, in order to keep Israelis from asking difficult questions about where their leaders are taking them.

      The state of freedom of speech and the right to dissent are direct reflections of the health of a democracy. By those measures, Israeli democracy is in critical condition.

      again, who is he addressing wrt dissent. when palestinian-israelis dissent, the current government response is not limited to incitement, scapegoating and lies to suppress their free speech. no, they use ammunition. people die. people go to jail. when was the last time the government sent out an army and attacked jews who were protesting. my point, is that in his article, even Sokatch privileges jews because that's who he's addressing and who he assumes his audience is. not because he is a zionist necessarily, but because he is jewish-centric. yes, the zionist entity demonizes anti zionst jews, their ideological opponents, but they do not find them so unworthy as to kill them or detain/abduct them at the border and imprison them which is what they have done to palestinian dissenters. they also detain and imprison palestinians for their face book postings. so i think it's very much a jewish supremacist mentality that fuels their zionism, whether it be 'liberal zionism' or otherwise.

    • i find that mindboggling yoav, that liberal zionists don't understand zionism privileges jews. and i don't disagree it's worth accentuating. but i'm disappointed in haaretz. why not publish opposite poles of the political spectrum? zionists often tout how "diverse" israel is and call it a democracy (absurd), so where is some of that diversity of opinion coming from the other side?--- the non zionists, the palestinian-israeli even? it reminds of two articles, at opposite poles of the male political spectrum, discussing feminism. and nobody notices no women voices!

      and that's one reason i brought up all the discussions of the 20 banned groups, thus far (including this site i think, although i might be mistaken), is that in every instance it talks about the groups not being able to enter israel. but who doesn't know those same gatekeepers are controlling the entrances to palestine? isn't that the bigger story? that israel is not allowing 20 groups, supporters of palestinians and bds, to enter palestine?

      it's not uncommon at all and it's so infuriating. and i meant it when i said thanks for the article. i liked it. i've liked all your articles thus far.

    • In the past week, Haaretz published two articles, which are seemingly at opposite poles of the Zionist political spectrum – ... these pieces demonstrates that regardless of several important differences in their approaches, both advance an agenda meant to preserve privilege for Zionists

      what else could they do? opposite poles of "the Zionist political spectrum " preserve privilege for jews (even when those jews are not zionists), because that is a tenant of, and primary function, of zionism.

      a tad OT, but something that's been on my mind i have not read anything about. none of the discussion about the banning of 20 bds supporting groups from entering israel touch on a (if not the) primary reason this ban is so draconian. israel controls who enters palestine.

      so behind the facade of 'you can't enter israel because you support boycotting us' , is something akin to the damage done to prisoners by not allowing friends and family, or guests of the prisoner, to enter the prison. israel is preventing those who support palestine from entering palestine. people who would attend conferences and cultural events organized by palestinians taking place inside palestine are denied entry -- palestinians are not allowed to meet with their global supporters in person. because those twenty groups, it's not so much israel they are trying to reach, it's palestine. just thought i'd mention that. the ban isolates and punishes palestinians even further, under guise of something less draconian.

      thanks yoav!

  • From Spinoza to Vilkomerson, Jewish voices for peace have long been banned-- by Jews
    • you mean the "Jewish court" w/the 99.7 conviction rate? wow, they must be so smart.

    • speaking of executions, today: http://imemc.org/article/army-kills-a-young-palestinian-man-injures-several-others-in-jenin/

      Israeli Forces Extrajudicially Execute the Cousin of ‘Wanted’ Man

      The young man killed by Israeli soldiers in a pre-dawn raid in Jenin has been identified as Ahmad Ismael Jarrar, 31 – the cousin of the man that the Israeli forces were targeting.

      The soldiers conducted the raid allegedly to extrajudicially execute a man (Ahmad Nasr Jarrar, 22) accused of the murder of an Israeli. But instead, they ended up killing the man’s cousin, Ahmad Ismael Jarrar. The two men look nothing alike, and are ten years separated in age.

      How the Israeli soldiers confused the two is unknown, but it has become clear in the hours following the attack that they extrajudicially executed the wrong man.

      Even if they had killed the targeted person, extrajudicial assassinations are considered illegal under international law and the Fourth Geneva Convention.

      my hunch is, after torturing some people or twisting the arms of some collaborators they got a hunch on who killed the illegal settler the other day, so they went off in another execution expedition.

    • ”deserves death ” is not to be taken literally.

      o that clears thing up.

    • neither Shammai nor Hillel have an objection in principle to teaching a Gentile.

      the relevance is lost on me. how many rabbis endorsed killing gentile babies under the pretext they may someday be a threat? do you counter that by saying, it's hyperbole -- look over here there are rabbis who object in principle to killing gentile babies.

    • cults. phew!

    • yes, much better! happy new year to you to amigo. ;)

    • Btw , the Knesset is working on the death penalty.First for so called terrorists and then for non Jews studying the Talmud (spies) .

      amigo, not sure how helpful it is to co-join very real legislation with this other draconian thang.

    • not sure you understand the meaning of excommunication jon. for your edification:

      Excommunication is an institutional act of religious censure used to deprive, suspend, or limit membership in a religious community or to restrict certain rights within it, in particular receiving of the sacraments.

      what "rights" is jvp limiting or restricting? there are fundamental differences between a boycott and an excommunication. jvp has no power to excommunicate.

      this penchant to portray israel, the powerful or the oppressor as the victim is noted, again. i know you so want to be on the side of the victimized, but you're not.

    • hi panama kid. context is everything, i can't recall the original conversation but i think it was in response to initially some politician saying she should spend the rest of her life in jail. and then someone (i can't recall, maybe catalan) said she would be in for decades. and then i said i didn't think that would be the case. and while i can't recall what term or phrase i originally used, catalan, in another thread, mockingly me, said "why worry" and then falsely quoted me (catalan loves putting words in my mouth) to which responded that i did think it would be relatively shortly and not decades. and now he's turned into "quick" and "easy" (attributed to me of course, why not!). which i did not ever say. and finally i used the term "shortly" (i have checked my archives) after he extracted it out of me in another of the bs fishing expeditions as he did here. basically, catalan twists my words all the time. take everything he says w/pound of salt (he lies). shortly, in the context of decades, is still a very long time. and i would never ever reference a prison term as easy or quick.

      i have no inside information. but if israel gives her a long prison sentence (several years) there will be hell to pay. that's my opinion and i do not think they will do it. ie; if she gets more time than the murdering medic... there will be hell to pay. that's just my opinion.

    • no distraction mooser! i really want to hear him back this up. this should be really fun (cough) interesting.

    • Jewish supporters of BDS , like JVP, boycotting Israel, are analogous to the community leaders who excommunicated Spinoza.

      don't stop there jon, please elaborate.

  • 'Curricularizing Israel'-- the Hebrew program in suburban Chicago schools
    • speaking of ziocaine. needless to say i thought of you:

    • yes i know jon. and to answer your question i've taken language courses before (lots of spanish classes, some arabic, some french and am terrible at languages) and to answer your question, i don't recall my language classes being accompanied by history, politics and culture instruction. anyway, i was responding to this:

      Do you think a class teaching Polish or Swedish would not have components dealing with the history, politics, and culture of Poland or Sweden?

      but my point (unlike you, i read the article. i also opened the link and read the descriptions of the instructors) they are not "teaching" zionism, they are promoting it. and if it were going to be "historical" my question stands -- it should include the nakba. but, if they're happy sending their kids off to college with no awareness of palestinians or the nuts and bolts of israel's founding (ethnic cleansing) and completely unprepared to deal with all the "unsafe" spaces there with people who have a CLUE about what's going on, fine. i'm sure the totally uninformed hasbrats (they'll be prepared for something having been spoonfed hasbara in their "hebrew" classes) will be utterly stupefied. you can't keep blinders on them forever.

    • teaching it is one thing, promoting it is another. how could someone teach the history of zionism without mentioning the nakba?

    • While the rest of the school was singing Yasser Arafat’s praises ......”

      jill, what school offers classes singing arafat's praises, singing palestinian songs? is this what the jewish students need to be protected from? really? because i don't believe you. what are the names of those classes "the rest of the school" was attending when you were asconded off to your safe space?

      The author mentions in this article that the classroom can be a safe place for students to feel comfortable with their Zionism. What is wrong with that?

      shall chicago also offer high school classes where students can have safe spaces to feel comfortable in their communism? it's one thing to learn about political constructs, it's another to promote it at the taxpayers expense.

    • keith, "the various strands" makes it sound as though you mean 'all various strands'. i think that may be inaccurate.

  • The Times discovers 'the best interests of the American people' in the Russia case
    • Is it just possible that supporting Israel IS in the interest of this country?

      no. israel has one of the worst reputations on the planet. for the US to align itself so closely and seamlessly with an apartheid pariah nation is not in the best interest of the nation. that's a no brainer. and it's something the american people should have a choice about, but we don't.

      plus, the hypocrisy of the press, making this all about trump collaborating with russia, that when the news breaks trump&co were appealing to russia at the request of the israeli government, the press is totally silent -- because israel is sacrosanct!

      and, why aren't you asking 'Is it just possible that supporting Saudi Arabia IS in the interest of this country?'. why? was invading iraq in the interest of the country? why?

      but this:

      they were working to advance the interests of a foreign power, because of financial entanglements between those official

      it's worth asking! but if you said it about israel, with the largests FP lobby in the country, it's anti semitic! btw, did you read the nyt kersher/israel/30million profit story? what do you think of that?

  • What Palestinians can learn from South African anti-apartheid struggle
    • Let Israel continue their systems of apartheid, but force them to pay for the privilege. Make the price as high as the pain it causes them.

      for starters, what do you think jerusalem is worth, in monetary value? name your price. how much would you charge for it. value your pain to give up all claim to it. since you think their home can be bought, sell yours.

      then the galilee. name your price.

    • I will wait and see what any Palestinian has to say about this article.

      wait for what? also, the author is palestinian.

    • at best? as far as i know neither singapore nor hong kong's territory include a huge swath of uninhabitable land inside its border. i'm not sure how much of gaza's territory is uninhabitable because of that 32 mile "security border" with israel, but it's a lot. i've been there, it's not a narrow strip. countless palestinians have been executed for protesting inside that barrier, and rachel corrie was murdered trying to protect a family's home israel was demolishing to expand the depth of that barrier. once that sq km barrier is taken into consideration, it changes the equation. anyone know how deep that barrier is?

      when i was there all the homes along the border of the wide barrier were uninhabited, bombed and pockmarked with bullet holes. and those homes were not inside the barrier.

  • Finally a 'New York Times' columnist says liberal Zionism is dead
    • yes, i do call that a failure of your imagination. you were also saying there's a "fat chance" any liberal zionist could stop living in a fantasy world. but i know lots of anti zionists who are ex self defined liberal zionists. it's not so much getting zionists to compromise, as getting them to realize zionism, as it's been historically practiced, won't work. you have to think outside the box sometimes echi.

    • it’s not a “failure of his imagination”: it is a natural conclusion of his estimate of possibilities.

      echi, a natural conclusion of his estimate of possibilities is due to a failure of his imagination. there's no contradiction here, they segue perfectly.

    • personally, i think seidemann suffers from a lack of imagination. i don't know if he believes Jewish supremacism is too big to fail. but when he says "there is no alternative" i think there's a possibility he just can't fathom israel genociding or ethnically cleansing the rest of palestine, the thought of himself being complicit in that (which he would be) could just be too unbearable for him to accept. and he can't let go of his zionism, he's a believer and for him 'there is no giving up' on that dream.

      but -- there are alternatives to 2 states. either one state or ethnic cleansing/genocide. both possible. it will take people like him giving up on his zionist dream (which has never come to fruition) to fight for the only remaining alternative available where he could live with dignity as an israeli jew. it's his failure of imagination not to see those other alternatives as very real possibilities.

  • Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as capital of 'Jewish people' is assault on my religion -- Queens rabbi
    • that's very good news. not sure about the mooser part tho ;)

    • i forgot about that RoHa, i do hope you're healing along swiftly. sending my best xxox

    • Thank you for answering mooser's question Rabbi Shapiro. and welcome to mondoweiss.

    • What difference for the purposes of this discussion does it make if it is exactly 6 million of 5.9 million?

      for the purpose of any discussion, when people sling around terms like "the simple fact" the information should be both factual, and simple. and decidedly NOT opposed to what experts say (ie, if the experts say "up to 6 million", that is opposed to the idea of "a minimum of 6 million", or as you said "at least six million". )

      Are you, Annie, denying the fact that millions of Jews were murdered for simply being Jews?

      you already tried slandering me once in this thread claiming i revealed myself as a holocaust denier boris! doesn't it get a little old. and as i stated, prior to you asking me that question:

      i’ll rely on this expertise:

      https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

      .......

      Number of Deaths

      Jews: up to 6 million

      [……]

      Copyright © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, DC.

      sheesh!!!!!

    • i beg to differ naftush. not only is there no reference to Neturei karta in the main article, there is also no reference to them at the video description at the youtube site. i think it's quite likely, in posting the video, phil was not even aware this rabbi was part of that sect of judaism. this is even more probably given he originally misnamed him which has been noted repeatedly in the comments until we corrected that.

      making a charge of "fixation", using this as an example sans other examples or links, is unpersuasive. and i would not have even known he was a NK rabbi had yonah not brought it up.

    • boris, my suggestion if you think your comment is missing/deleted, is to click on your name and check your archives first.

    • I am glad that you agree with me ... that Jewish identity is not defined by your religion.

      do you mean that for you is not defined by your religion? for you, is it more (or exclusively) defined by your zionism? identity is very individualistic. when it comes to ourselves, i'm not sure it's a one size fits all thing. when it comes to others, one (or one government) may make generalizations about whole groups of people. but i'm not sure how smart it is defining oneself as ones enemies might define you.

      btw boris, there's no sign in our trash anything you've written from this thread has been deleted. and nothing at all from any thread in the last couple days. please try writing it again.

    • unlike everybody else, were hunted and murdered simply for being born Jewish

      the tamimis are hunted and murdered simply for being born palestinian. well no, their land and spring are coveted. israel sooo wants that land without the people who come with it. i wonder what, if anything, jews had that was coveted by germans, by the nazis. and the roma, did anyone covet what they had? or was it they just wanted all the land just to themselves? for their pure aryan selves. is it too much to ask, this ethnic nationalism? that would depend on who you ask i suppose. it was too much to ask for the germans, but it's not too much to ask for israel. is it? of course israel is not gathering them all in one place and straight up exterminating them. they just want them gone gone gone.

      sorry, just rambling. which reminds me of an article i tweeted yesterday. see the video, how they hunt the children. The Life of Palestinian Teens in East Jerusalem
      https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-1.833273

      Israeli policy aimed at making life so untenable in East Jerusalem that residents will decide to leave

      simply for being born palestinian.

    • thanks for the clarifications!

      we're very grateful for everyone in the comment section for bringing this to our attention and apologize to Rabbi Shapiro and all our readers it took us so long to correct. beginning with just, later ajweberman, talkback, eljay -- we really should have gotten on this sooner. we've noted a correction at base of the article. thanks again.

    • not to burst your bubble there boris, but i'll rely on this expertise:

      https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193

      The single most important thing to keep in mind when attempting to document numbers of victims of the Holocaust is that no one master list of those who perished exists anywhere in the world.

      What follow are the current best estimates of civilians and disarmed soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

      These estimates are calculated from wartime reports generated by those who implemented Nazi population policy, and postwar demographic studies on population loss during World War II.

      Number of Deaths

      Jews: up to 6 million

      [......]

      Copyright © United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, DC

    • simple fact is that it was used at least six million time

      in ww2? i thought 6m was the outside figure, not a "simple fact".

    • welcome, and could you clarify what you mean ajweberman?

    • citizen, neither the holy see nor the vatican (2 separate entities, the Pope being the head of both) ever sought membership status in the UN . only the vatican city is a state and the Holy See has established permanent observer missions at the UN. Archbishop Celestino Migliore: "The Holy See has the requirements defined by the UN statute to be a member state and, if in the future it wished to be so, this resolution would not impede it from requesting it"

      Vatican City and the Holy See are entirely distinct entities with a different nature, establishment, and functions. The Holy See is the central governing body of the entire Roman Catholic Church located within the Vatican City, an independent state located on the Vatican hill.... The Holy See (Sancta Sedes) is an independent sovereign entity and the top spiritual governing body.

      more here: https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-is-the-difference-between-vatican-city-and-the-holy-see.html

  • Israel issues BDS blacklist against 20 organizations-- 'badge of honor,' Munayyer says
    • rosenberg is funny. his basic premise is that bds is completely ineffective and not growing and then he says things like

      It also has a section devoted to stopping G4S, even though the global security company sold its Israel unit six months ago.

      as if bds had absolutely no impact on G4S divesting! a global company no less! and this:

      The Ireland Palestine Solidarity Committee has a petition for supporters to sign demanding the Irish building materials company CRH divest its 25% stake in Israel cement company Nesher. Problem is – it did that two years ago.

      and why did CRH divest? because of BDS! here's rosenberg's idea of what BDS accomplishes:

      only once or twice a year posting some minor victory when a student council votes to boycott Israel

      .
      anyway, let him think what he wants. bds infiltrates like crab grass, underneath the surface. when the rain comes followed by the spring, it shoots up and is invasive. israel knows this which is why it is fighting bds tooth and nail to stop it. and they can't!

    • can make aliaya, earn Israeli citizenship

      iow, if you immigrate you can visit.

      how disingenuous! immigrate and you're allowed to visit your relatives!

      stop cyber stalking me. I never said .... I said...I never said...My patience ....has been worn thin.

      "Round and around the vortex, like so many floaters."

      my suggestion would be to stop spamming the threads jack.

    • jack, you lost me. what does making aliyah and immigrating to israel have to do with visiting friends and family?

  • Haass and Kristof can't cross the Zionist Rubicon
    • brewer, where did you get that statistic?? and your graph conveniently stops 7/2014 w/under 200 dead. where's the 2 thousand plus palestinians who died that summer? i seriously doubt "for every 15 people killed in the conflict, 13 are Palestinian and two are Israeli". but whatever.

      i think you missed the point of my comment, which had an element of mocking that you missed. fyi, that chance of dying in a california earthquake is much higher than an israeli being killed by one of the thousands apon thousands of palestinian militant rockets. i think about 30-35 israelis have died so far from one of those rockets. and you know what? people are moving to california in droves and i know exactly no one who worries about being killed in an earthquake (albeit, when they are happening it can be very very scary). this "they don't know what it's like to be attacked by rockets" is propaganda. most israelis have never even been attacked by a rocket. more of them have been in car accidents than "experienced" being attacked by a rocket.

      “We’re afraid of earthquakes because they make us feel out of control. We can’t control the earthquake

      http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chance-dying-earthquake-20160518-snap-htmlstory.html

      whereas, a palestinian living in the occupied territories there is a very very high risk of "experiencing" being attacked, detained, imprisoned, or tortured during ones lifetime. very high.

    • talkback, Tzipi Hotovely, israel deputy foreign minister, is a she. just thought i'd mention.

      her whine, about american jews not understanding how it feels to be “attacked by rockets”, reminds me of the danger of california earthquakes. sometimes people on the east coast will call after we have one and ask if we are alright. and we live with the consideration that we could fall into the pacific at any time. the quake line is only about 30 minutes from my house. but it's a constant, there's always the chance an earthquake will happen (big one in berkeley the other morning). but the chance of getting hit by a rocket or killed by a rocket, is probably about the same as getting hurt, or killed, by an earthquake.

      but i see what she means, others just have no idea how hard it is for us californians to live with these earthquakes. they don't have to suffer like we suffer, knowing at any time, we could just break off into the pacific or have our loved ones killed by one of these earthquakes. we are always at risk. (so please, fund californians today.)

  • Stop talking about Ahed Tamimi's hair
    • sure, i'm pleased you agree it's "in the mind of the watcher".

      re: all those 100's of israeli kids and their handlers pushing pr. yes we know. and don't forget their aps that push what they should think and say on social media too. but frankly, i'm not impressed the uniforms, which is what they are wearing when i normally see photos of them. too militaristic for my taste.

      those big op ed spreads of the iof girls with weapons, not my thing. when i see them taking selfies with their guns, i just think, terrorists in training.

    • wow, jonathan. just getting around to reading the exchange w/Søren K. Willemoes in your facebook page. i find it astounding. i can honestly say that thus far, until i read what he wrote, i had not even thought to look at tamimi's breasts much less focus on her nipples. it's sort of stunning he thinks how he sees her is something obvious or normal. with a teen boy perhaps, but it is not as if they (her breasts) are screaming out at us. it's absolutely normal when viewing her photograph not to look at her nipples. and he says

      "Yeah right, I'm the only one who sees the nipples. Who are you trying to fool?"... ?

      Why does my age matter? What's wrong with you guys? Try getting what I'm writting instead: I find it PROBLEMATIC that people use her as a sexualised propaganda tool. Are you guys completely unable to read?"

      use her as a sexualised propaganda tool? is she supposed to go hide while growing up. it's just what she looks like -- a girl, a person. he seems unable to accept that is what she looks like as he can only see her as a sexual being therefor others see her as such and use her as such. the implication even that her father, brother, or photographers covering the protests might see her as such. that's just astounding. he says it over and over "obvious propaganda imagery" and "sexualised teenage girl" which begs the question of *when" did she transform, in his eyes, from a child to a sexualized object. do you say to a child, 'now that you are growing up stop what you are doing and have always done because you will be perceived as sexual. '

      several try to inform him, "Søren K. Villemoes you are the only one who see a sexualized teenager !!" but oddly he doesn't seem to understand this. it's mindboggling. many adults look at teens not as sexual beings, but he doesn't seem to be one of them. maybe he thinks they should all be wearing burkas. or several layers of clothing. it's just a girl in a tee shirt, a brave girl at that.

      if ahed could be lolita to him, any girl could be. wow, you really flushed it out of him in those comments jonathan. just amazing. he should get some therapy.

  • Why I am not at the MLA
    • no, there was not "broad-based academic support". had that been the case all the tactics reported here, used at the conference would not have been used. there is broad based support within the pro israel community to bring down divestment #BDS, don't pretend that represents MLA as a whole or society as a whole.

    • homeland is part of what it means to be Jewish

      for some i suppose, but not for all, clearly.

      violent colonization thru brainwashing.

    • very powerful statement . it's been a long haul getting MLA on board, only to have it shut down. but this:

      its vote for the unconstitutional provision that prohibits any further motions regarding Palestinian academic freedom exposes the complicity in the occupation of Palestine.

      unreal!!!

      i remember when alex, in 2013, first wrote about the upcoming convention featuring an academic boycott panel and resolution slamming Israeli denial of entries. http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/association-convention-resolution/

      then in 2014, MLA’s Delegate Assembly passed the resolution by a vote of 60-53 http://mondoweiss.net/2014/05/association-resolution-criticizing/ and it was heavily debated.

      In the run-up to the MLA convention, Hirsch [past MLA president} wrote that she was bombarded by letters from pro-Israel advocates, including e-mails “accompanied by well-known photographs of Nazis with signs calling for boycotts of Jewish stores,” which were sent to link the BDS movement targeting Israel with the Nazis.

      then, again in 2014 "members voted to condemn Israel’s discriminatory border policies...But the 1,560-1,063 vote on the resolution was not ratified because 10 percent of MLA members have to affirm the vote for a measure to count. " http://mondoweiss.net/2014/06/language-association-policies/

      then a bully israel lobbying group threatened them with a lawsuit http://mondoweiss.net/2016/12/threatens-endorses-academic/

      then they tried passing a resolution blaming hamas and the PA for lack of palestinian acedemic freedom!! http://mondoweiss.net/2017/01/restrictions-palestinian-academic/

      these are just a few of the many hurdles going on for years now.. and now, to "prohibit any further motions regarding Palestinian academic freedom". utter disgust.

      i'm so sorry Prof Sheehi. it's a uphill battle.

  • Haaretz smears the Tamimi family to counter worldwide solidarity with 16-year-old Ahed
    • ah, yeah that was sort of what i thought but it wasn't altogether clear and it was such a short segment at the end. i think there's an element about it that could be perceived otherwise if one wasn't carefully paying attention. but thanks for getting back to me on it. i will share that with the person who sent it to me because she was a tad unsure herself.

    • actually i had not, i was responding to the yesh din link. but i've seen it now and read something comparing them the other day. that settler is gross. speaking videos with a twist, did you see this video put out by haaretz? it seems like an advertisement for the pro israel ap but i'm not completely sure what they mean at the end in the reference to the trolls. what's your take on it?

      https://video.sekindo.com/uploads/video/users/converted/17104/video1512383249/vid5a252363b5ef4969450535.mp4

    • talkback, same report. this is sad.

      Another striking trend is the increase in the number of Palestinian crime victims who do not wish to file a police complaint. In 2016, Yesh Din documented 113 incidents of ideologically motivated crime against Palestinians and their property in the West Bank. In 48 of these cases (42%) the crime victims told Yesh Din they were not interested in filing a complaint with the Israel Police. This, compared to 30% of the victims in cases documented by Yesh Din between 2013 and 2015.

      they fear themselves and their families may become targets if they file a report.

    • marnie, the channel 10 video of racist israeli teens in your 2nd link has been wiped out. but some sceenshots of the aftermath, israelis jubilating the cremations of palestinian kindergartners, have been captured here https://972mag.com/news-of-palestinian-children-killed-in-crash-met-with-racism/35543/

    • it's like a disneyland theme park -- killing is so fun!

    • thank you Yoav!

  • If you genuinely back the Palestinian cause, you must support the right of return
    • unless there is some equal action that compensates

      palestinians are not responsible for something that happened in other countries unrelated to them. and had the state of israel not been founded and pressure from zionist parties towards others countries in the region to hand over their jews so israel would have warm bodies to fill the homes of palestinians who were displaced in order to conquer palestine it's unlikely there'd would have been such an influx of jews from arab countries -- something the israeli government lobbied for, ie; to "trade" iraqi jews for palestinians etc. so i think you're barking up the wrong tree to tie these two phenomenas. it's illogical and a diversion and completely absurd it would be included in any treaty between israel and palestine -- as if palestinians were responsible.

      just more absurd hasbara.

    • f'ing A+ brewer! that's incredible! i'm thoroughly impressed!

    • brewer, i liked this segment:

      intermittent warfare since sharon’s stroke has removed him from the scene

      and his death a few years ago really removed him from the scene!

    • i proudly support Palestinian right of return.

  • A foreign leader -- Netanyahu -- set Trump's agenda in Middle East, Michael Wolff book says
  • Israeli prosecutors try to make Ahed Tamimi a terrorist
    • you don't understand what boxed in means? go find a dictionary. oh, and your opinion doesn't count because you're an outsider, and biased.

      (A little hint: The Palestinian grievance is about international law and universal values.)

    • he was in a box he could not get out of on this sub thread mooser. he's either off duty or he gave up, and he's not been back since.

    • nathan, you asked for talkback's to define the grievance from the Palestinian point of view and then told him ("not from your outsider’s point of view") it wasn't about international law or about universal values, basically asking him to respond to your boxed in question which you then discarded based on what you determined was his perceived bias. you didn't really address what he wrote you decided to "Read[ing] between the lines" and make declarations about that instead. so:

      A country has no right to enforce immigration upon another country.

      do you recognize this as being universal or not? or do you think this concept demonstrates bias? let's get that out of the way can we?

    • in order to classify it as a war crime you have to make assumptions.

      no, in order claim is was not a war crime you have to make assumptions. there's no evidence produced thus far the Samouni's were legitimate targets.

      you thought this was rhetorical, whether Col. Ilan Malka might “admit” he knew he was targeting civilians if he was tortured for a few weeks, like they’ve tortured palestinian suspects for decades to get confessions.interesting.

      and you have "no idea". well let me ask this then, if Col.Ilan Malka signed a document in arabic admitting he targeted those civilians would you be more or less likely to think he signed under duress. would you be more or less likely to believe it to be true. and if he was tried in a palestinian court of justice with a 99.9 percentage of convictions for jewish defendants would you be more or less likely to believe justice had been served vs an israeli court sentencing palestinians w/a 99.9 conviction rate.

      and hey, i totally get you're not defending Col.Ilan Malka's order to slaughter of the Samouni family. not you jon.

    • A photographer on the beach is not a legit target.

      it's irrelevant jon. when israel maims and/or kills photographers, which they've done repeatedly, they are not prosecuted. they just say it was some kind of an accident, unintentional - mistake. so what difference does it make if it is legal or illegal if there's no one there to torture a confession out of the killer, or a team of professionals; pr, spokespeople, lawyers, etc, ready to create whatever narrative regardless of the circumstances to get killer off hook.

      please link to a jewish iof who's ever been prosecuted for killing or maiming a journo or photographer. so after decades we're to believe none were ever targets just because israel says so.

    • jon, the deaths are tragic but? really? iow, you're not denying it happened. you're excusing slaughtering innocent civilians. AND it would behoove you, before copy pasting directly from wikipedia (highly compromised site regarding i/p), to actually check the sources listed. because none of the sources listed under that quote make that specific claim.

      however, 21 months -- almost 2 years after the massacre, there's this: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/what-led-to-idf-bombing-house-full-of-civilians-during-gaza-war-1.320816

      While some Givati soldiers agreed to testify to Breaking the Silence (an organization of veteran combatants who served during the second intifada and have taken it upon themselves to expose the Israeli public to everyday life in the occupied territories) about their part in Operation Cast Lead, notably absent are the soldiers who manned the position nearest the house that was bombed on Malka's orders.

      21 months and not even one of the soldiers manning the scene of the slaughter had spoken to breaking the waves.

      same link also says

      senior air force officers had approved the attack. The report, published on Friday by Amos Harel and Anshel Pfeffer ("IDF probes top officers on Gaza war strike that killed 21 family members" *** ), alleges senior officers authorized the bombing despite being warned by more junior officers that civilians were likely located at or nearby the target site.

      One officer involved in approving the attack is then-Givati Brigade commander Col. Ilan Malka. To date it has not yet been determined whether he will stand trial as an officer involved in the affair.

      also, conveniently, you cut off your quote right after this segment:

      On Monday morning, 5 January 2009, four men left the house to gather firewood for cooking. Next to the house was a small wooden structure, and the men had reportedly begun climbing on this to take the boards apart. This activity was seen in aerial drone photographs, and the poles that the men were carrying were mistakenly identified as rocket-propelled grenades by an Israeli Givati Brigade commander operating from a remote location.

      maybe they should have tried confirming that before bombing the house they ordered all these civilians into. and what lame excuse do you have for not allowing ambulances for 3 days? please! it begs the conscience how you could defend this slaughter of innocents.

      If the soldiers intentionally targeted the civilians without a legitimate military target then it’s a war crime.

      there was NO LEGITIMATE MILITARY TARGET... that's why it's a war crime.

      *** it was not 21, Palestinian family mourns 48 dead http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/4290553/Gaza-Palestinian-family-mourns-48-dead.html

      either way, you didn't answer my question jon, which went to my point:

      if you tortured Col. Ilan Malka for a few weeks, like they've tortured palestinian suspects for decades to get confessions, do you think he might “admit” he knew he was targeting civilians?

    • If the perpetrator admits to targeting civilians

      speaking of all those iof slaughtering civilians "accidentally", remember during the gaza massacre 08-09 what happened to the samouni family? iof ordered people out of their homes and forced them into one home, one room, something like 50-100 people i can't recall -- but mostly women, elderly, and children and then bombed the home. then they prevented ambulances from entering the area for 3 days!

      now here's why i bring that up. of course, israel doesn't engage in terrorism, they just don't target civilians but i was wondering... if you took the guy who ordered that mission as well as all those soldiers who forced the family members into the house as well as the soldiers who took the samouni men and tortured/interrogated them for hours before killing them, if you took those iof and put them in separate rooms and tortured them for a few weeks, do you think any of them might "admit" they were targeting civilians?

      the iof said what happened to the samouni family was "complex". slaughtering all those people and then leaving the others to bleed out after days and days of not letting doctors in. i mean, who does that? what kind of animal does that?? but heavens, don't call them terrorists.

      i'm just curious. what do you call them? monsters? i think israel calls them heroes.

    • no worries oldgeezer! and thank you.

    • 4 mooser, 4 bakr boys were slaughtered. Israel exonerated itself claiming they were aiming for a hamas compound -- a ridiculous allegation.

    • just thought i'd mention. because i recognize the sadism behind sanctioning a country for 10 years wiping out a million youths before unleashing massively destructive war on the civilians of that country as we did in iraq. that's sadistic state sponsored terrorism.

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