Commenter Profile

Total number of comments: 22694 (since 2009-07-30 20:11:08)

Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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  • Adelson delivered! Now it's Trump's turn
    • i read that too. ambassador/envoy to israel or something.

    • son-in-law Jared Kushner (who fired me over this blog at the New York Observer in 2007)

      ha! love it. so he's probably well aware of mondoweiss.

      all that money pumped into the gop pales in comparison to the billions the american taxpayer shovels into israel. trump is a businessman, so what's he gonna ask in return? anything? he must sense he has some leverage and it's his nature to want to be on top. so what's he gonna ask for? something tells me he'll ask for something -- so what will it be?

      meanwhile jared's father has dumped tons into settlements and the idf. strange toxic cocktail going on here. i wonder what the dynamics are between the 2 father-in-laws. trump probably has to dominate in that department too. all very intriguing.

      and of course there was that side show w/chis christie and the transistion team. was he just called forth to be ceremoniously dumped? for show? after how he screwed jared's dad over. obviously trump already knew about that prior to trump winning. the prison sentence, christie, and everything. so what was the point of christie being like the very first name on the transition team list only to be fired as soon as the son showed up at the WH? obvious enough? my hunch is was to just shame him or something. it's got a tad of a mafioso family style dagger thing about it. and of course christie's political future is down the tubes from here on out. i think that was trump throwing his son-in-law and son-in-law's father a big fat juicy bone straight out of the gate. this is likely how trump plays. personal. so what's the implication for adelson and israel. 20-30 mil is peanuts to 3.8 billion a year. do you think trump will let that completely slide? i don't. he'll ask for something. what he will ask for -- i have no idea.

  • Why a Texas rabbi keeps losing a debate over Israel with a white nationalist leader
    • yes, i doubt Maghlawatan was referring to michael lerner's magazine, or richard silverstein's blog either.

    • hops, your comment is merely a false equivalence/strawman/ad hominem argument.

      meanwhile, simply stating spencer's "analogy is nonsense" is not an argument nor evidence he's a piss poor debater -- it's just an unsupported declaration. just thought i'd point that out.

      try harder: #fail

  • 'NYT' bias amazes: long article about online incitement in Israel/Palestine only blames Palestinians
    • But taking the characteristics of some part of the population and applying it to all is bigotry.

      ok, by that standard calling the US an imperialistic war mongering nation would be a bigoted statement unless one presumes every american is imperialistic and war mongering.

      No I wouldn’t. The US doesn’t have one predominant race.

      i guess that creates a real advantage by thinking of and referencing israel as "the jewish state" -- hence any critique of their policy and action can be viewed as criticism of jews. i don't really buy that defense jon.

      earlier, to make your argument, you also wrote calling "an entire people...", but no one referenced every jew. you know that. and the original statement you called bigoted referenced not jews but the "face" of the historic homeland. a referenced to the 'face of a nation' is as others see it. similar to the US being imperialistic or war mongering, it is the face we show the world -- at least to those we persecute and oppress! this acts as a deterrent for any nation with a will to oppose our domination.

      no wonder you tried analogizing the statement w/trump's 'undocumented mexican immigrants' in order to make your argument. it's this kind of twisted thinking that paves the way for critics of bds to claim it is anti semitic, as if the target of the movement was jews instead of a oppressor colonial state. the continued reference to israel as 'the only jewish state' or 'the jewish state' is built into the hasbara required to defend the murderous bigoted thieving actions of the state. it is an inoculating feature used to defend the unconscionable.

    • you're answering my question with a question and moving the goal posts jon. "undocumented Mexican immigrants" is a false equivalence for the colonial state of israel.

      i'll respond to your question after you answer mine. if someone called the US “a nation of bigots, murderers and thieves” would you accuse them of racism?

    • while it may be a generalization i don't think it's bigoted. if someone called the US "a nation of bigots, murderers and thieves" would you accuse them of racism?

    • many many internet stories and rumors

      are these stories in hebrew or arabic? can you link to a few of them please (since there are so "many many")?

    • Calling an entire people “a nation of racists and bigots”

      he said the true face of your "historic homeland" was “a nation of racists and bigots”.

      that doesn't mean everyone there is a racist/bigot.

      for example, the true face of beitar jerusalem is bigoted. it doesn't mean all the players and all their fans are bigots.

      and to be sure, calling out beitar jerusalem as bigoted (or it's true face as bigotted) is not, in itself, "a manifestation of racism and bigotry." it's merely the truth.

    • pivot -- let us know when US police destroy crops and villages.

      noted: efforts by pro israel factions (like the ADL etc) exert efforts to train, militarize and israelify american police -- the role of israel's occupation soldiers dovetails with the domestic security forces (police) who colonize bedouin/palestinian land.

      similarities exist as evidenced by the aggressive police forces representing oil companies and the US gov mobilized against water protectors at standing rock.

    • Face the fact that Palestinians specialise in this kind of stuff.

      wow, google said that? scary freaky. color me concerned.

  • Defending Ellison, Jewish writers publish 'apartheid' description of Israel in 'Slate' and 'Washington Post'
    • jesse myerson knocks it out of the ballpark in his wapo article:

      What about Ellison’s ability to represent a traditional Democratic position on Israel? In reality, Ellison’s political attitudes toward Israel are no different than that of his party. That some 60 percent of Democrats favor imposing sanctions or other penalties on Israel due to the nation’s occupation of Palestine and 51 percent favor the establishment of a Palestinian state would mean, by Greenblatt’s calculus, that the majority of Democrats hate Jews.

  • I hereby chuck my right to Jewish national self-determination
  • Santa Cruz church becomes first US congregation to boycott HP for role in Israeli occupation
    • ... Likud .... but let’s not pretend they’re unintelligent.

      that was exactly my point in counter arguing your premise that the boycott is "useless". likud doesn't appear to think so.

      I did answer your question, directly and explicitly.

      by saying it was like Y2K and to do nothing and hope it all fixes itself is unwise? uh huh. color me unimpressed.

      to indulge your feelings rather than your brain just means you need a better therapist....I wouldn’t rely too heavily on “young people” coming to the rescue either.

      uh huh. no threat from the boycott -- got it. your opinion suits me just fine, not too convincing tho. bye.

    • mooser, here's what i hear

      jj: the boycott is useless, my proof is the flotilla.

      me: what do you think of all these people who treat the boycott movement as if was a major threat? flotilla huh?

      jj: you know i'm right, i am making you uncomfortable and desperate. my proof is the flotilla.

      me: what do you think of all these people who treat the boycott movement as if was a major threat? flotilla huh?

      jj: u duck and dodge, Israel and Turkey are friends, I don’t have a dog in this fight

      me: what do you think of all these people who treat the boycott movement as if was a major threat?

      jj: BDS is jew bashing. i have palestinian friends and put money in Palestinians pockets (which is 100% more than you have ever done for them)

      me: what do you think of all these people who treat the boycott movement as if was a major threat?

      seems to me like jj doesn't want to answer my question. but if bds was so "useless", i wonder why the california jewish caucus in my state and israel lobby groups keep pushing anti bds legislation across the country. my understanding is that bds, a non violent grassroots movement for equal rights has spurned a huge multi million dollar opposition. it would make more sense to me for anti bds advocates to simply pour their money directly into israel's economy rather than spending it to fight an ineffective (useless) boycott.

      anyway, i am not uncomfortable in the least. with over 60% of dems favoring sanctioning israel and the largest US demographic supporting israel is old people vs the young not supporting israel. i figure we just need to keep doing what we've been doing and watch the chips eventually fall where they may.

    • oldgeezer, exactly, makes no sense. also, i'm truly baffled w/his link to the flotilla story. it's not related to the boycott at all as far as i know.

    • jester, assuming you're correct, what do you think of all these people who treat the boycott movement as if was a major threat? all the time and effort in making anti boycott laws in so many states? billionaires like adelson hosting conferences on how to stop it? efforts to shut down and silence palestinian activism on campuses? are they all just crazy and wasting their time? if the boycott was so ineffective, why not just ignore it?

      btw, how does your flotilla link support the notion Muslims and Arabs don't care about the boycott?

  • Washington Post promotes shady website attempting to smear independent journalism as Russian propaganda
  • Groundswell for Ellison signals end of the era of political assassination by Israel lobby
  • ADL's Greenblatt is the one who needs to express 'contrition' for accusation of Keith Ellison
    • ok, and 9/11 is also "famous for its false flag aspect." it was a "pearl harbor" event pnac had discussed to get us into war with iraq, which was heavily lobbied for. is this even in dispute? or don't you recognize the polls reveal 1/2 of americans think it was an inside job or cover up?

      The summary of the poll noted that "Though people with greater education generally have greater exposure to news, those with greater education are only slightly more likely to attribute 9/11 to al Qaeda." Steven Kull, director of, commented "It does not appear that these beliefs can simply be attributed to a lack of exposure to information."[2] Of those who said the United States was the perpetrator, Kull says many believe it was an attempt to justify an impending U.S. invasion of Iraq.[3]..

      Zogby International....

      The first one was conducted in late August 2004 on 808 randomly selected residents of New York State. It found that 49 percent of New York City residents and 41 percent of New York state citizens believe individuals within the U.S. government "knew in advance that attacks were planned on or around September 11, 2001, and that they consciously failed to act."[4] The margin of error for this poll was 3.5 percent.

      The second major Zogby poll on 9/11 was conducted in May 2006.....Responses: 48% No Cover-up / 42% Cover-up / 10% Not sure

      it launched the war on terror. i'm not sure how anyone could argue how, like the reichstag fire, it is not "famous for its false flag aspect," if 1/2 americans (including educated people) think it was an inside job/cover up. but regardless what one thinks it was used by the powers to discriminate against an american minority and to launch a long war. so i think his point is valid and the comparison is too.

      I do not think it is easy for a free society to react with discipline to such an event.

      especially when the msm, fbi, cia and government throws their weight behind that demonization, especially when our "allies" are saying the event is good for them, especially when anti muslim hate groups spring up like wildflowers after a spring rain. especially when strong lobbies are advocating for war, muslims are targeted by those kinds of groups -- the same kind of groups targeting ellison right now. so who are you going to be influence by, those groups who promote discord in our society? or the more "disciplined" americans?

    • you might have a point had he said Reichstag fire is shorthand for 9/11, but he didn't. he called 9/11 the juggernaut. he said you wouldn't have all the discrimination against minorities but for 9/11. he specifically referenced an event that was used as a catalyst by the state in which to legalize discrimination of minorities, which is the truth. and even wiki says the Reichstag fire remains an ongoing topic of debate and that historians disagree whether it was an inside job/false flag -- which is definitely how 9/11 will be remembered ("ongoing topic of debate" -- because it is not an isolated few fringe who do not ascribe to the official story reported immediately after the event).

      unless you can establish that ellison was speaking in code and not referencing the point in which he was trying to make, a point that is indisputable (the targeting of american muslims and american arabs which began after 9/11), you're barking up the wrong tree -- not just "the likes of" me and Cynthia McKinney, but j street, chuck schumer bernie sanders, and any rational person without an ax to grind to take him down can hear exactly what he was saying.

      btw yonah, at a minimum, are you going to even recognize the discriminations perpetrated against arabs and muslims in our country because of 9/11? whether you agree with that or not, the spying in mosques and the framing of certain people by the fbi, and the untold burdens placed on one segment of our society after that event, or are you going to sweep that all under the rug? what about the millions of dead iraqis, that event being used to bring the US to make war on another country with no association to 9/11? do you even recognize that burden?

    • i found out about those poker hands w/a little googling around the other day yakov. impressive. ok, you're excused ;)

    • he said after the reichstag fire they blamed the communists for it and they could basically have authority to do whatever they wanted. and remember 9/11, you had never had all this [kind of] discrimination against minorities (except we did after pearl harbor). he said 9/11 was this juggernaut in american history (as was the reichstag fire, for germany).

      so what's the problem?

      Adolf Hitler, who had been sworn in as Chancellor of Germany on 30 January, urged President Paul von Hindenburg to pass an emergency decree to suspend civil liberties in order to counter the ruthless confrontation of the Communist Party of Germany.[2] After passing the decree, the government instituted mass arrests of communists, including all of the Communist Party parliamentary delegates. With their bitter rival communists gone and their seats empty, the Nazi Party went from being a plurality party to the majority, thus enabling Hitler to consolidate his power.

      after 9/11 an emergency decree (the patriot act) "suspended civil liberties in order to counter the ruthless confrontation of" the 'terrorist sympathizers' (american muslims). After passing the decree, the government instituted surveillance and many arrests of american arabs and muslims.

      so what exactly is your problem w/his reference yonah. are you denying any commonality?

      The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains an ongoing topic of debate and research.[3][4] Historians disagree as to whether van der Lubbe acted alone, as he said, to protest the condition of the German working class. The Nazis accused the Comintern of the act. Some historians endorse the theory, proposed by the Communist Party, that the arson was planned and ordered by the Nazis as a false flag operation.[5]

      sounds very similar to me. or maybe you do not recognize the discriminations perpetrated against arabs and muslims and the million dead iraqis as well as untold numbers of innocent dead afghanis as a result of 9/11. or is it just too weird for you comparing similarities between the targeting/victim status of jews and arabs?

      or maybe you don't recognize the responsibility for 9/11 (like the reichstag fire) remains an ongoing topic of debate and research.

      why should he keep the reichstag fire out of his mouth? is it only in your domain or something? or do you think 9/11, unlike the reichstag fire, is settled fact?

    • you thinking it's fair game doesn't debunk they were spied on.

    • another excellent article yakov, my only disappointment was this:

      His is a world where in the past few months he is the second influential black congressman to be “spied” upon

      how could you forget former florida state senator dwight bullard. a beloved senator from florida, and community activist, who has spent a decade serving his constituents as well as chairman of maimi-dade dem party. and somebody "spied" on him and made a big case about the history of one of his tour guides when he traveled to palestine/israel with the dream defenders last year. this was ostensibly the reason given for calling him a terrorist supporter although the real reason was he initially voted against the anti bds legislation although he did comply and caved at the end.

      the adl was "very troubled"

      anyway, there have been 2 articles written about him published here very recently:

      also, both of bullard's parents were legislators, his family has been representing florida for over 3 decades, until the last election that is. he's running for florida dem chair right now, and there are threats to cut off funding for florida dems if he wins the nomination. DWS told him his political career was over.

      it was hideous the way they went after him. hideous.

  • Aleppo chef recreates his restaurant in Gaza after fleeing Syria
    • wow, what a wonderful story about a wonderful chef. thank you Ahmad Kabariti! please send my best regards to Anas Qatarji for his continued success and entrepreneurship -- and his courage and determination.

  • More than half of US aid 'to entire world' goes to Israel and it ignores our warnings on settlements -- Kerry
    • oh yeah no doubt.

    • wow, an incredible work of art, i'm impressed. re regev's "expression of hatred"? apparently that's the go to word used for every occasion by pro israel advocates. it's becoming ridiculous.

    • it’s logically impossible to mount a serious and meaningful criticism of Israeli policy that is unbiased and fair. Can’t be done.

      no, it's illogically impossible!

    • plus, there's ample evidence opinion about israel that's not very carefully worded gets met by huge denouncement and pushback to the extent ordinary people often are reluctant to even speak about it for fear of being permanently labeled an anti semite. i know what this feels like to go online and hear hideous stuff said about me -- one has to move on and not be afraid or live in fear. it places a shroud around the conversation. like weeds in winter that conversation spreads underground and when the rain comes and the exposure of sun it sprouts up in mass, and that's what we're beginning to see, hence the laws in place to stunt the growth. but it's too far gone, they simply can't change what's in peoples minds. there's too much exposure now and no turning back.

      as the howls of anti semitism continue (for virtually all criticism towards israel), while zionist racist are allowed to spew forth their vile islamophobia on pages of the main stream press and public broadcasts across the nation, the conversation will continue.

    • to pretend that Israel palestine is near the consciousness of a large segment of the US population is just false.

      so you don't believe in the results from the brookings poll? i watched the video of shelby, and as i recall he said that was one thing the 2 sides (dems and gop) had in common although they didn't share the same opinion, both sides thought it was important. not the most important issue, but an important issue. so how could it be an important issue if it was not even "near the consciousness of a large segment of the US population".

    • If it’s a biased and unfair and a resolution calculated to delegitimize Israel, we’ll oppose it. -

      and if it's not biased and unfair?

  • Obama would have overwhelming support from US public to allow UN establishment of Palestinian state
    • only 17% of dems think trump should lean towards israel. that's not very many in relation to dems pandering democratic platform. the dnc is not in touch with the party , they NEED the left to win elections and the left is more in touch with party base than the neocons. that's for sure.

      they gambled thinking trump was so bad everyone would run to go vote for hillary and all the baggage that comes with her -- like regime change.

      ok, my son just called and told me they're moving the pipeline and not going thru standing rock! excellent, gotta go check it out.

  • A missing piece of the puzzle of Trump's victory: the 2003 invasion of Iraq
    • were expecting more of the same veil of confusion under a Hillary....For all these reasons I am pretty sure that Trump got the lion share of votes from military people

      i think it cost her the election, it's why i couldn't vote for her. libya was a total disaster too, so she proved she couldn't handle military intervention and her judgements are not sound and then she runs as hawkish NFZ candidate. stupid.

    • yes i agree on the increasing awareness point, totally. had the iraq war been a blip a decade ago it would of been one thing. instead it's seen as a decade of war a blip ago -- that left a big hole that spurned isis. and clearly the US military doesn't want to be fighting on the side of and aligned with AQ/isis to bring down assad or for any other reason, understandably.

      and what james said "its impact on the American men and women who served there" -- had that not happened they would not be so adamant about not wanting a repeat on syria.

    • hi james, it wasn't about iraq -- it was about syria. there were several articles before the election, i could swear i've linked to one here before -- military families against nation building. they overwhelming did not want more war with syria and regime change. this is probably why they voted for trump.

      here's one such article "After 15 years of war, America's military has about had it with 'nation building'"

      and in the poll they specifically asked how do you view nation building in the middle east and africa.

      also, trump and johnson tied in the poll, clinton only got %16.

  • US Senate quickly passed the Anti-Semitism Awareness Act
    • you answer with 2 questions and this:

      The point is world public opinion and mass support, not paragraph-chewing in a frenzied attempt to legalize colonial conquest and worse.

      isn't that paragraph chewing?

    • "you people" -- ouch!

    • besides, it's not "the Jewish people" right to self-determination, because lots of jewish people are not interested in this zionist "self determination". it's an ideological political stance - zionism. it's a "zionist peoples" self determination not a jewish peoples self determination.

      and on top of that, lots of those zionist people have no intention to ever seek self determination in israel, much less move there. the whole self determination argument is full of holes, aside from the illegality of ones so called self determination crushing the self determination of the indigenous people.

    • reminds me of

      Israel’s notoriously militant Justice Minister, Ayelet Shaked, equated criticism of Israel to anti-Semitism on Wednesday, in light of rising European support for the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Movement (BDS).

      “In the past, we saw European leaders speaking against the Jews. Now, we see them speaking against Israel. It is the same anti-Semitism of blood libels, spreading lies, distorting reality and brainwashing people into hating Israel and the Jews,” Shaked told the Washington Post. “Today, it is not politically correct to be anti-Semitic but being anti-Israeli is acceptable. People who have such anti-Semitic views should not be allowed to hold central leadership positions.”

      Shaked’s view that criticism of Israel is akin to anti-Semitism is widely shared among right-wing supporters of Israeli policies.

      our senate taking their cues from israel's radically racist justice minister.

  • Saban calls Ellison 'clearly an anti-Semite' (and not on Wikileaks)
    • and it's such an absurd statement. keith said nothing about "a jew", saban is one of the dem party's top funders and his words belie "the Jewish community" -- who he does not represent (because they do not speak in one voice) -- is his primary concern. so do dems decide their own fate, or is it the funders who run the party?

      when hops sees saban that's what he sees "a jew". but that is not what i see. i see a billionaire who wants to control one of 2 political parties in the united states. that's a lot of power. and he doesn't just "speak his mind" -- that is not what i object to. he, like everyone else should speak their mind. it's what's on his mind that i question and the power he wields to actualize his priorities. but hops victimizes this powerhouse by claiming his adversaries don't want to "permit" him to speak because he's jewish!! how absurd.

      there should be laws in place that prevent monstrously large donations to political parties or officials.

  • Despite Israeli restrictions, surfers in Gaza hope to join global competition
    • what a great article, photos and video!!! i love this. thank you thank you thank you.

      the photo, 2nd from the last, is stunning.

  • ADL is leading 'witch hunt' against Keith Ellison over Israel comments, J Street exec says
    • yes i picked that up mooser, buoyed by the state report buoyed by the ADL report.

      Sibiriak, exactly. that was her primary selling pt, being a woman.

    • yes i noticed that myself mooser:

    • and marshall was not the only one noticing. Benjy Sarlin, political reporter for msnbc and nbc:

    • Jewish groups are conducting a “witch hunt”

      Ellison...said .. that American foreign policy for the entire Middle East is “governed by” what is in Israel’s interests because of ..American Jews.

      Jane Eisner... said that what Keith Ellison had said was “awful”

      Ben-Ami said ... Ellison must be allowed to be critical of Israel.

      Makovsky, whose political outlook is that the U.S. must have an aggressive foreign policy to project strength and support Israel

      the panel was all Zionists, no Jewish anti-Zionists

      So are we finally going to have an honest conversation about the power of the Israel lobby?

      The most unforgiveable thing about what Walt and Mearsheimer wrote 10 years ago …. was that they weren’t Jewish.

      this string of quotes says it all. the only people having a conversation, the only people allowed in this conversation, are zionist jews. everyone else beware. "we" are not allowed in the conversation. the adl puts it's foot down and the yammering of the zionists begins.

      as far as i can tell the zionist jews very much determine what goes on in the region, just like Makovsky wants: "the U.S. must have an aggressive foreign policy to project strength and support Israel". and god forbid ellison or anyone else points that out because to speak it, is to be an anti semite. so everyone else is supposed to shut up about it lest all hell breaks loose.

      last night josh marshal wrote

      " the last thing the Democratic Party needs right now is a toxic internecine fight over Israel", to which i responded "actually, we really need to talk about it. as a party and as a country. #38billion
      if it takes a fight to have that conversation count me in", he then said "thanks for your input".

      but as this argument heats up, what about all those other democrats who are not zionist jews? do they have a say, in the press, anywhere, on whether we care if keith ellison, or anyone else running for chairman of the dem party, thinks "American foreign policy for the entire Middle East is “governed by” what is in Israel’s interests because of ..American Jews"? because this little panel indicates this is exactly what they want to do and feel privileged to do. they could invite others who are not jewish, or we could just speak up.

      "thanks for your input."... like why not open up this conversation to the american people instead of having this adl hammer lording over the issue. it's really not for them to decide. it's as if every significant position in the party whether it be the florida chair of the dems (bullard) or the party chair or the nominees for gov or anything -- this is where the buck stops. if you're not sufficiently zionist you're not allowed in office.

      walk back your statement, grovel before us, denounce bds .. etc etc.. it's disgusting.

  • New anti-Semitism legislation may stifle campus activism for Palestinian rights
    • everybody gets called anti semite now often w/out distinction. heck, they say bds is anti semitic and yet 60% of democrats are in favor is sanctioning israel. so what does that tell you? 60% of dems are anti semites?! it's crazy, they'll say anything.

    • cumulatively, i wonder how much money our states and federal courts, public officials, legislators and their staffs, have spent on these way-too-numerous-to-mention efforts to serve israel's interests. we've already got laws and policies in place to protect students and citizens in schools and public institutions from bigotry as well laws in place to prosecute incidence of hate crimes and racism. but these israel related/anti semitism legislations, how much are they costing us and what has all that money produced in terms of results? anything so far?

  • 'Make this my dream as well' -- in historic appearance, Palestinian offers one-state vision to a NY temple
    • thanks jasonius.

    • Most of you would rather yell your heads off than accomplish anything.

      actually, you come as close to throwing a rhetorical tantrum as any person here hops. the ceiling is crashing down and you lecture us on tone. how amusing/not.

      the callousness for Jewish life around the world that I see in the BDS movement, which won’t even accept the reality of worldwide antisemitism, their role in causing it

      jewish life around the world? since when have we even discussed "jewish life" in argentina or florida or toronto? what does this even mean? or is criticizing lobbying your idea of "jewish life"? is lambasting Moskowitz, his 1 million to hillary and putting his foot down over the florida dem state chair "jewish life"? is making a mockery of saban's public denunciation of ellison "jewish life"? the callousness of which you speak is directed at the very characters preventing a two state solution by their constant and bullying one sided support for the apartheid aggressor state of israel. you know that. bds is only about a decade old and you aim to make it responsible for causing "the reality of worldwide antisemitism". which is absurd. the bds movement exposes what israel does. it's that exposure making "jewish life around the world" uncomfortable, because what is going on in israel is very ugly and lots of "jewish life around the world" has been supporting that unconscionable situation. but you don't want that exposed. you want to blame the messenger for screaming fire while the fire is raging. and you go after our tone. you're a farce.

      What I’ve always said here is that a one-state solution would be a violent disaster

      and yet you're here aren't you? you're not battling it out against the stalwart forces opposed to a palestinian state. the impenetrable lobby, the israel firsters. you're here dickering away with us, in your mind, the distant speakers from the zone of conflict -- Western supporters who tend to be a little nuts.

      don't you have bigger fish to fry? or is our tone that's the crux of your problem. because our tone is spreading -- because for the most part, we're just not that interested on how uncomfortable it makes israel's supporters that israel's crimes are being exposed. and contrary to whatever insane logic you're spinning, jewish discomfort over israel becoming exposed is not a sign of anti semitism. everyone feels uncomfortable standing on the wrong side of history, the criminal side. that's as it should be. it doesn't mean the messenger is a racist. we're just holding the flashlight and shining it on you and those like you.

    • because I just moved ahead and got a 75% Supermajority passed.

      uh, by hook or by crook. we heard about how that was accomplished:

      What happened at the January 2016 meeting was a travesty of democratic procedure. The chairwoman prevented all but one motion to table the 75% supermajority proposal from being presented. She refused to take amendments to the proposal. She first acknowledged that the supermajority proposal is an amendment to the By-Laws of the Coop and thus needs a 2/3 majority to pass. During the balloting , which was quite a chaotic process, with ample opportunity for vote fraud, she caucused with members of the chairing committee and the Board of Directors. She then reversed her decision that this proposal amends the By-Laws and decided that it needed only a majority vote. The vote count was 294 to 192 in favor of the proposal. That is a little more than 60%,, not the 67% needed to amend the By-Laws. - See more at:

      the coop dodged a vote for months and months and then changed the bylaws in a non transparent voting process. this was to bring about "unity". doesn't sound like democracy to me.

    • I don’t think Trump has the courage to confront Iran with the Nuclear plant, thing.

      ",thing"? really? check this out:

      and then there's this:

      But, in the international world; I think it will be bleak.

      good luck

      your commentary is as illogically disjointed as your punctuation but i'm really not in the mood to school you further at the moment.

    • I would like to think otherwise but wars with Iranian proxy on the north and with Turkey and Iranian supported Hamas” the South there will be more wars within this 2-4 decade period that will have a heavy impact on the outcome of a1ss

      iow, as long as there's conflict surrounding israel/palestine israel will use this chaos to keep stealing more land and expanding. hmm, if that's the case it would make sense, for those who want all the land, to keep fueling conflicts. i think this is a lame excuse. it's a self fulfilling prophecy of netanyahu's too.....I would like to think otherwise but...

    • de facto annexation of Judaea and Samaria

      the west bank

    • yeah.. there are good people everywhere, we have to remember that.

    • wow, what an inspiring article. thank you so much phil. thank you to Mr. Kuttab. thank you to Temple Israel in New Rochelle, to Mr Rosing and Mr. Warhit, and especially to Mr Herbst. all for their openness and generosity. and to the audience, for listening and being part of something that could really change the future.

      i remain hopeful. may goodness prevail.

  • The lynching of Dwight Bullard
    • poor little AIPAC and the ADL stuck in the middle like prunes in a porn video.


    • oh i'm sure that was like mana from heaven for the israel project and the hordes of consultants pushing the bds is anti semitic meme through state legislations all throughout the country. god forbid he meet with palestinians like barghouti who seeks to free his people. between that and screaming "terrorist" those hordes had their hands full. we get it jon, anyone who associates with a normal palestinians will never get near congress (or states congresses either) with millionaires like moskowitz around (of which there are plenty -- with a long long reach even into districts with no jewish community). the dem party can run down the drain broke and cripple and never win again as far as people like that are concerned. as long as every congress person gets on their knees for israel, everything will be fine fine fine. in little districts all across the country they will make sure things go their way. nice huh. wow, that should really make people love israel.

      you can fool all the people some of the time, but not all the people all of the time jon. and people are starting to get fed up. call it anti semitism, call it what you will. i'll call it men like moskowitz f*cking with people's beloved community leaders.

      i'll call it the long arm of zionism deciding who will or will not be allowed to be chair of the dem party in florida. how'd debbie work out for hillary? a net plus? or a net loss?

      Then DNC chairwoman and member of Congress, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, told Senator Bullard that his political future was over

    • his trip by itself may have organically cost him the election.

      it's very likely. there's a lot of racist intolerance in the pro israel jewish community for even a wiff of sentiment or empathy towards palestinians having rights like other people. sometimes they give it some lipservice but--- nah.

      Their character, values, and culture is created from Hollywood. My guess is that they (American Jews in Miami) are anti Israel, but lie and say publicly they are pro Israel.

      gee raphael, that was very helpful/not.

    • i may have misunderstood you jon. i have no doubts Bullard’s district is home to a well-organized Jewish voter base, which could be said about many many districts in the US. what you said, and what i heard, was the district is very Pro-Israel Jewish. and i wonder about that, because i have no idea how large the jewish community is in his district. he lost by 20k votes (10 pts) which is a lot, but that tells me a small minority can tip the scales, just like a minority of blacks can also tip the scales. it doesn't tell me the district itself is very pro jewish. but maybe you can tell me how large the jewish community is in his district, i have no idea. there's also this:

      Senate maps were ordered redrawn by the court, Bullard’s new district included his Richmond Heights home but left out large chunks of other communities his family had long served, including Homestead, Naranja and Florida City.

      coincidence? that represents over 80k votes right there.

      and there's also this:

      Christopher Norwood, a local campaign strategist, said he didn’t blame Artiles for the “terrorist” attack but blamed the outside campaign consultants who didn’t live in the district.

      “We lost the best champion for progressive issues in the Florida Senate because a segment of this community bought into an idea that somehow he’s a terrorist,” Norwood said as R&B music played in the background at the Super Wheels Skating Center in the Kendall where the campaign held its watch party.

      Edward Bullard acknowledged that it may be the end of an era for his family.

      “In the Florida House there was always a Bullard on the floor or the board,” he said. “It’s been a very good ride.”

      so, it could be a small very pro israel jewish minority in his district punching above its weight, in part because of a campaign emanating from outside his district. like, the israel project etc.

      this kind of thing can lead to resentment. it appears a much beloved representative whose family had served the community well for decades was taken out by a small minority and redistricting. i don't know if your comparison to the cuban community in miami is a viable. i'd have to take a closer look at the demographics. any hunch what size this pro israel jewish component is in his district, before claiming the district is very pro jewish?

    • The district he represents is also very Pro-Israel Jewish.

      why do you say that? how do you know? do you have any available demographics? if politicians know their careers will end if they go against big money (a few very rich people) how do you know they are voting based on their constituency vs voting for the big money and a small minority of their constituency?

    • Moskowitz raised over $1 million for Hillary. We didn’t turn out in numbers she needed and Hillary lost Florida. Now you tell me which was more consequential, Moskowitz’s money or the black vote?

      .......2018 is not that far away, and no Democrat can win statewide without the black vote.

      dems will keep losing chained to these zionist-approved candidates. nobody likes being dictated through someone's wallet. elections shouldn't cost so much anyway, and politicians should not have to perform for money. clean up the system and stop wasting the time and efforts of state legislatures fighting for a foreign apartheid country.

      great article Leslie Wimes

  • The link between Israel's forest fires and the 'muezzin bill'
    • o i forgot about that straighline, i did see some outrageously fabulous furniture made out of eucalyptus when i was in australia. deep in the woods there was a showroom and workshop. i will never forget it, or the eucalyptus i saw around margaret river area, i think a little south of there perhaps. huge! the only place i have ever been in the world (and i have traveled a lot) that reminded me of where i come from in northern california (stunningly beautiful) was western coast of australia from cape naturaliste (similar to pt reyes) down to margaret river -- the varying landscape from wine groves to the same kind of wild beaches and the smell of eucalysus on the drive south to bolinas. but it may have been on the drive from bunbury to denmark that we stopped at that furniture place deep in the woods.

      yes, he picked the wrong species. interesting, it was right around the time he wrote the one thousand dozen (1903), funny i never made that connection. he didn't purchase his ranch in glen ellen (1000 acres in valley of the moon) for 2 more years -- the same year the article mentions “blue gums,” were planted on the Foster Ranch. glen ellen is one of the most heavenly places i ever lived. again, reminding me of the wine country around margaret river.

    • really? i didn't think it made good lumber. no one builds with it around here.

    • where i live in california we don't encourage eucalyptus growing into forests. they were generally planted in very long rows sometimes dividing plots of land, usually bordering roads, but more often for wind barriers. they get huge, ours are very big trees.

      here's a good story

      Living in Oakland in the early nineteen hundreds, the wealthy author Jack London wanted to get even richer. He learned of a tree from Australia, one that grew rapidly in climates similar to the Bay Area’s and produced wood of exceptional quality. London procured a large number of eucalyptus seeds and planted a massive plot of them in the Oakland Hills.

      Harvest time came, and London cut down a small chunk of his plot to determine the quality of the wood. It quickly became apparent the wood was trash—it split, it bent, it dried out, ultimately proving itself substandard for any use other than cheap firewood. He apparently planted the wrong species of eucalyptus, and his crop was useless.

      In disgust, London let the grove stand rather than waste the money to cut the rest down. And soon, with no help from anyone, the invasive eucalyptus forest began to grow. South around the Bay into San Mateo, north towards the delta into Contra Costa, eventually making it all the way to Marin; like a plague from down under, the virus spread. In this manner, London unwittingly produced the region we know today—one covered with an entirely non-native tree.

      According to my father, this was how eucalyptus came to Northern California, and I believed him completely.

      it's not entirely true tho, we are not "covered with an entirely non-native tree." we have many other trees including gorgeous redwood forests here, and they are native and magical. and as far as i know they do not explode into flames.

      but our non native eucalyptus trees are sometimes a hot local topic. see this photo for an example of how they line the road.

      "This isn't Russia," he said. "They can't tell me to cut down my trees."

      County officials insist they want to work with property owners toward an equitable solution. But in the rural area, where Ernie's Tin Bar is the de facto city hall and suspicion of government runs deep, many aren't buying it.

      "The county is blackmailing them (property owners) to tear down the trees at their expense," said Jim Kriegsman, who lives on a 140-acre horse farm and started a petition drive to save the trees.

      The dispute resonates widely. What happens to the iconic stand of eucalyptus trees between Stage Gulch Road and the Blackpoint Cutoff could be a harbinger of how the county deals with these antiseptic-scented mammoths lining highways across the region.

      Of these, the Lakeville grove is perhaps the most famous, gracing postcards for wineries and forming a natural tunnel for motorists. Some see beauty in the "blue gums," which were planted in 1905 on the Foster Ranch, once part of the giant Tolay Ranch that was acquired by the county as open space.

      They were an addition to the huge trees, planted in 1860, that mark the site of the vanished port of Lakeville on the Petaluma River.

      Others, however, view the trees as unsightly invaders, brought from Australia and growing into veritable death traps. In 2005, a limb fell on a car on Lakeville Highway, injuring the driver. In 2002, a 30-footer from the "Gum Grove" near Infineon Raceway at Sears Point fell and killed a motorist.

      County officials, recognizing the passions attached to the Lakeville trees, promised last year to proceed slowly with any plans to cut them down.

      Supervisor Mike Kerns, whose district encompasses this territory, stated flatly that the trees would not be clear-cut.

      "We could remove the trees over a period of years and not all at once," he said in a June 2007 interview......

      btw, jack london may have lived in oakland in early nineteen hundreds, but his book valley of the moon is set in sonoma county's valley of the moon where the jack london state park is. right up the road from the area of the second article i linked to. california has a love/hate relationship w/our eucalyptus. and that 2008 article? of course the eucalypus are still standing between Stage Gulch Road and the Blackpoint Cutoff. ;)

    • i witnessed a eucalyptus tree explode in australia once and start a fire. it was at the myalls lakes national park. we were rowing in a boat and saw it just explode near the bank so we rowed over to it and watched it burn for awhile. my australian friends said this was not unusual.

    • duly noted and the offending part removed. however, compensating "terrorist" victims on only one side of the conflict is ethnic based discrimination. states are generally tight about money, and how could a state compensate everyone from a forest fire? don't they have fire insurance over there?

    • Mivasair, from the google translate it says

      But it's impossible to trust him completely because he still has covert or overt interest to burn the forest,. Therefore, set about keeping, and it cannot prevent fire (maybe he's the one who started at all), nor the appearance of the Arab village of delete underneath the foliage.

      fascinating paranoid mindset.

    • i just heard the news from a friend: "Jewish resident of Beersheba don't want to hear bus-stop announcements in Arabic (only in addition to Hebrew, of course) on the local Dan buses. Arabic audio promptly removed. Arabic is supposed to be an official language in Israel. Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Beersheba in 1948, and many Palestinians Bedouins visit the city."


      settlers ears are offended by arabic so silence it.

  • FL State Sen. Dwight Bullard opposed an anti-BDS measure -- and lost his job
    • anti BDS is the new litmus test for politicians in the dem party, that's for sure. from Malcolm Hoenlein (i think it was him in that wikileak) mouth to hillary's ears and like dominoes they all fall down.

      but the dem party is in deep sh*t. they will continue to drain membership and lose elections by banking on the idea the anti war left will all follow in line and vote for whatever candidate they shove down our collective throats because the GOP is just so much worse. so our choices become slow death w/cancer on chemo or the guillotine. they will lose. they need the left and the left is for freedom, which includes of course, for palestinians. so let them stew over that thinking they can win elections w/this anti bds pledge up and down the party. not going to happen.

    • Then DNC chairwoman and member of Congress, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, told Senator Bullard that his political future was over, he told me.

      she's the one whose political future should be over.

      great article. huge implications for the dem party, imho.

  • It is time to imagine how one state-- one person, one vote-- will work
    • what many believe....... deep-rooted Islamic anti-semitism.....unwillingness of Islam to accept

      virtually all islamophobes think this way. it's like talking to a brick wall because palestinians have legitimate reasons to demand their rights and resist those who oppress them. this is what mayhem and his ilk cannot face or acknowledge, and therefor he blames the victim and demeans them. whereas, if i spoke of deep rooted jewish bigotry and an unwillingness of judaism and No muslim in his right mind can trust jews etc etc there would be howls of accusations from the chattering class and blog posts written about what annie robbins wrote. but you, you think you can spout this racism here, and someone -- not me by my recollection -- cleared this racist comment for publication. disgusting.

      oh, and christian palestinians are no different in their resistance mayhem, they get slaughtered by israel too. but your islmophobia doesn't acknowledge them does it, it doesn't merge with your bigoted messaging.

    • me too. makes it easier w/hostage and seafoid being absent. miss them both.

      and so many others.

    • Biblical Hebrew didn’t have vocabulary for commands such as “let’s torture this 12 year old”

      blood libel!

    • plus, "revive" is a slippery term, most of the words are (relatively) new borrowing heavily from arabic.

  • 'Tis the season, to boycott!
    • You listed many little things that YOU may consider is benefiting those people, however please ask one of them in the West Bank or in Gaza. I doubt they would agree with you.

      i don't have to ask them because they have already spoken.

      The BDS movement was launched by 170 Palestinian unions, political parties, refugee networks, women’s organisations, professional associations, popular resistance committees and other Palestinian civil society bodies.

      if palestinians in the west bank and gaza didn't think bds was accomplishing anything, they'd stop. it's not my position to judge whether this is effective action.

      I know you try to justify the work of MW

      the thought has not crossed my mind. and why would it? we have no need to justify ourselves. we support the Palestinian-led movement for freedom, justice and equality the best we can. why would that be cause for justification? we don't publish to justify ourselves, we publish to expose israel's crimes and expedite global consciousness regarding those crimes and a resolution to the present situation.

      evidence suggests that our work in solidarity with activists around the world is effective. the results of the recent brookings poll -- something like a 10 pt jump in the last year alone in the US, suggests there's been a shift in awareness over this issue (and dem voters favor sanctioning israel by 60%, that's huge). so again, there's no need to justify anything.

      relatively speaking, we may be the size of a wave in a bathtub, but we're not alone and we're not in a bathtub. we're part of a global movement and cumulatively that wave is strong and powerful.

    • ok, i realize that wasn't very nice. lots of justifying words there sandra, just thought i'd point that out. and in your long comment where you laid out your version of what happened here (as if we can't just scroll up ourselves).. this is what i heard

      you had used the phrase “repulsive Israelis”, which set off red flags for me... you need to honestly reflect upon .. you not being clear enough, for I would say that had you chosen more precise and careful wording, then this whole mess would have been avoided....I’m not claiming to be perfect (although, overall, I think that my tone has been a lot sweeter than any of yours…)

      and an even shorter version might read like this:

      don't say repulsive israelis, i don't like it. it's not nice. my tone is sweet and yours isn't.

    • RoHa, I believe very much in being realistic. Perhaps, in a perfect world, we can all just see each other only as fellow human beings, and all join hands and sing Kumbaya, but the reality is that many will always regard women differently, no matter what we do. I could win the Nobel Peace Prize, and to them I’d still be just a goddamn female (and to contest this, would be willful ignorance). Although note that I had also said that it was not just the negative, like this, which keeps me grounded in my feminism - there are positive forces as well that motivate me in this direction (which are too much to cover in one of these comments). But no, I NEVER said that because there is some unfounded hostility towards women in general, that is a reason to deny men their rights. Note that I had explicitly said, “Of course, this doesn’t excuse any wrongdoing on the part of women”

      i'm a woman hear me whine roar.

    • RoHa characterized Israelis as “replusive”.

      no, he didn't. here's what he said:

      First, it is by no means certain that all, or even most, of the people entitled to return would return. Many might give up the right in return for compensation and assistance to settle elsewhere, rather than having to live with the repulsive Israelis.

      referencing the repulsive israelis doesn't even reference the israelis who are not repulsive. it's like saying 'i don't want to live in aleppo w/the repulsive isis'. it doesn't mean everyone in aleppo is isis. it's not a racist statement to not want to live w/isis.

      would a bigot/racist/supremacist ever write something like this?

      no, but i am not judging you solely by what you wrote there, which i didn't know about. my views are more related to what you wrote here, which belies your prejudice.

      regarding your site:

      Lying doesn’t advance your position. All you ever accomplish by lying, is that you reveal yourself to be a liar. And the tarnishing of your character in this way casts suspicions on your motives, and the veracity of anything else you say will subsequently be questioned. In the examples I’ve given here of lying, note once again that the lies are unnecessary, in that the truth is bad enough. So if the truth is already sufficiently damning, then why lie? Well what the lies attempt to do, is make things seem even worse than they actually are- to demonize the other. And why the desire to demonize- what does this stem from? It all leads back to my hypothesis of what force is a major factor in all of this… hate.

      so tell me, did anyone here claim you or anyone else was a "heartless demon"? or was that your rhetorical flourish in which to position yourself as a victim of unfair scrutiny? Lying doesn’t advance your position. All you ever accomplish by lying, is that you reveal yourself to be a liar. And the tarnishing of your character in this way casts suspicions on your motives, and the veracity of anything else you say will subsequently be questioned. note that the lies are unnecessary, in that the truth is bad enough. So if the truth is already sufficiently damning, then why lie? (ie, claiming we all share the same pipedream fantasy that you cannot source) Well what the lies attempt to do, is make things seem even worse than it actually is - to demonize the other. And why the desire to demonize- what does this stem from? according to you sandra "It all leads back to ... hate."

      so tell me, was it hate that motivated you to insinuate we called you a demon? a heartless one at that? and why would you claim RoHa "characterized Israelis as “replusive” [sic] when in fact he only referenced the israelis who were repulsive. or do you think there are no repulsive israelis?

      btw, i don't think you are a demon. nor evil. i don't use these sort of inflammatory biblical terms, that would be you making these sort of statements, for whatever reason, i suppose for the sake of argument (unlike you i don't have a theory that leads back to any alleged hatred on the part of my adversaries -- i don't demonize them, because it doesn't serve my interests). but in essence, it's lying.

      and for the record, i think you are an ordinary zionist. no special powers -- not a demon.

    • eljay, me thinks stirring sh*t and then feigning victimized damsel in distress; 'can't we all just get along'

      trolls are such a waste of time. why do we ever bother.

    • I did not say you had a drinking problem… it was a guess about some BDS activists, in general

      I have a theory, it is 100% conjectural though; and a after thought of sorts.

      I never met her in person, as well.

      ... I seen the same arrogance, even among themselves when they would talk to each other. ....

      It would be interesting to know if any of the writers here have a drinking problem.

      raphael, if i don't respond to all your points, it's because i often scroll through them. i only have so much time -- and not enough for liars, games* and bs.

      *that would include your extended (now trashed) musings on drunk socialists - take it somewhere else.

    • And to that I would say- if it would in fact be just, maybe, thousands, rather than millions, then, yes- in that case, Israel should be able to take them in.

      thanks, yes i saw that before. it would be certainly more than a few thousand, easily more than a million. either way, it's not the point.

      re you accuse me of bias and racism (but I guess it’s not “ad hominem” when you do it?)

      an ad hominem is "(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining." my accusation was based on your argument. the one where you maintained israel should be able to decide whatever it wants regarding jewish immigration while (paraphrasing) it would be impractical, unreasonable, no feasible way, unrealistic, more complex, not all of them [palestinians] were [driven away] which you think is "very significant, because it complicates the matter of determining who specifically has a legitimate claim" (contrasted to a jewish 'legitimate claim' which you do not question). etc etc. that's not ad hominem, i was addressing your position as racist and biased. can you see the difference?

      either way, i was merely pointing out you started it, with your over all dismissal of a legitimate claim of return, characterizing it as a "pipedream fantasy". but i accept your restructuring of your opinion to suite a less biased position. and you can just admit at anytime, which you've failed to do, that you made up out of whole cloth, a position you can't back up and never could, that everyone here shares in some fantasy no one in fact has ever stated, and you did it for the convenience of your argument. no big deal. but try slinging around insults like calling me snotty and discussions about whether your ideological adversaries here are drunk or just culturally deficient, well, i can play that game too -- if it suites you that is.

      sure i can make nice -- when your ideas are nice. let's face it tho, we don't make the rules on i/p -- who will be allowed to return. you're here to defend the colonizing oppressor, we see that. if the best you can do is attempt to show us in a negative light (snotty culturally deficient drunks) -- o well.

    • Why you feel compelled to be so friggin’ snotty

      resorting to ad hominem, color me shocked.

      The torrent of hostility that has been unleashed against me all came from my mere (and, sorry folks- RATHER SENSIBLE) suggestion that the actual “nuts & bolts” implementation of the right of return for Palestinians, might be somewhat difficult. But the prevailing attitude here is that if anyone deviates even the slightest bit from your standard, staunch anti-Israel party line, then they must be some heartless demon.

      speaking of snotty, you didn't address my question, which i posed to you seriously. here's you being "RATHER SENSIBLE": the pipedream fantasies that everyone here seems to have for the world’s entire population of Palestinians to relocate to Israel.

      you painted a broad brushstroke encompassing "everyone here" as having "pipedream fantasies" regarding an idea i have not ever heard even once. you did that to counteract a completely biased and racist position that i pointed out to you (that you have since tried to modify sans one iota of acknowledging the biased racism inherent in your original statement).

      raph: It would be interesting to know if any of the writers here have a drinking problem.

      you: I think I see what you’re saying- that perhaps having a harsh attitude like that doesn’t necessarily imply that the person is really bad deep down, it might just be more of a cultural thing.

      amusing. a cultural thing. is it a cultural thing for you, when called out on biased racist ideas to resort to (snotty) little allegations about everyone else's "pipedream fantasies"? or maybe you just have a drinking problem and are not really a bad person... deep down and all that ;)

      and no one called you a "heartless demon". maybe try not using these exaggerating strawmen to make your points. remember, we can throw it (snot?) right back at you when you initiate it.

    • no, not a "secret hope". i was making a point about how fast they'd be coming up w/alternate plans if it was them under foot, instead of dragging out this colonization ad nauseum for decades under the guise of "security".

      are you a sadist j jestur? is it fun for you trying to catch me? playing word games while people suffer.

    • justj, excuse me for missing this comment. first off, it was directed at the author of this article -- hence not really my place to respond. but clearly, i think theo is wrong. very wrong. in a few short years bds has completely changed the landscape. look at the awareness, look at the campus activism, look at a global movement that has sprung up, not small or fringe groupings working against all odds. but a movement that has garnered lots of attention. activists from all walks of life are coalescing to pressure israel and demand rights for palestinians. so clearly, i think he is very wrong. and i can't recall when i last had a conversation with you about it, it's probably been awhile. but obviously, if bds were not effective you would not have billionaires hosting conferences trying to coordinate how to end it for they could just donate whatever negative financial impact it might be having. and you would not have the israeli government spending a fortune to fight it as well as setting up a ministry to deal with it. it's very effective. it was less than 3 years ago when the scarlett johansson superbowl affair exploded bds into mainstream. look how far we've come.

      of course, what constitutes profit is subjective. but i don't think palestinians can do this on their own, it will require a global effort and i believe bds has made a big difference. it's a palestinian movement and not for me to judge how they perceive they are profiting from bds, but surely they think they are or they would call it off.

    • ok, let's try this again:

      “The fear that if --- some liberals believe that --- BDS wants to throw out the Zionist invaders it will be bad for BDS --- seems to be what directs your thought.”

      whose fear. i'm not afraid. Sibiriak said you were "simply repeating (ad nauseum) a central Zionist talking point– that the ideal goal of the BDS movement, and Palestinian resistance in general, is to dismantle the State of Israel and throw out the bulk of the Jewish population." which is what you're doing. where's the fear. you want to echo zionist talking points have at it. and then hammer everyone not as pure as you imagine you are.

      where's our fear?:

      More likely he repeats Zionist talking points simply because they are the logical outcome of his moral purism, his idea that “strict justice” trumps every other human value, and that the voicing the morally perfect position is more important than actually achieving any increase in human welfare.

      that part i had in bold, bds stated goals are not that. it's an accusation made by bds opponents. what directs people's thoughts have to do with the conversation they are in at the time. and for us at this time, that would be -- namely this one. so it is people such as yourself, with opinions like yours that opponents of bds are pointing to to support their claim bds wants to kick all the jews out. but i don't care, it's easy to deflect that nonsense. (yes, i think you're speaking non sense)

      it doesn't "direct my thought" per se. it just is, and not reflective of the movement. i wasn't speed reading.

      that was clearly applied to recognizing Zionist presence as legitimate

      you're deaf ech, you hear only what you want to hear. again, legitimate or not legitimate they are there, it's reality. this is not an argument for or against or related to "Lots of things that existed are no longer", no one here is your idiot. and being on your high horse and claiming people are "dedicated" to making sure they should remain, does not accurately reflect the dedication of the movement (in the least -- like i could care less), which is palestinian rights based. you're worse than the hasbrats w/your accusations. anything to win an argument. you're obsessed with slandering activists, as much so if not more than any self declared zionists lurking around here.

    • o doubling down i see. how unusual s/

      people dedicated to legitimizing the idea that Zionists should remain in Palestine

      oh yes our favorite pass time. you just can't hear. talknic said it best:

      Too late. Israel like it or not, legitimate or not, agree with it or not, already exists.

      but you can't hear that, you chose to translate it into "dedicated to ... should remain". recognizing a reality becomes our "lofty moral philosophizing".

      but this really takes the cake:

      liberals believe that BDS wants to throw out the Zionist invaders it will be bad for BDS seems to be what directs your thought. Not a good basis for discussing essentials. Politics are made based on clear positions. If you keep that attitude, there is no way BDS can contribute in any way to educate the US public...

      um, this is a palestinian led movement. i'm not understanding where you're coming up with the idea "BDS wants to throw out the Zionist invaders" because, regardless of what thoughts any individual may harbor this is not and has never been a stated policy or goal of bds. and if, as you say "Politics are made based on clear positions" then why are you blaming "liberals" for the clear position of bds?

      It looks as if the Palestinians will have to continue to be genocided until they agree to foreign liberals making them equal to huge numbers of armed invaders in their own home..... It’s kind of an improvement, so who needs to consult the local yokels?

      but the bds movement's stated goal is equality. who are you to imply the goals of a palestinian lead movement are made by "foreign liberals"?

      "who needs to consult the local yokels" you ask? why you do, that's who. the bds movement was conceived of, initiated by, and directed by local yokels, and they want equality. there's nothing in their stated goals that says 'throw out the invaders', probably because this is a reality based movement. not dictated by virtue signaling loonies.

    • well stated Sibiriak.

    • mooser, we shouldn't be too hard on ol rapha because he's logically impaired. when he's not battling it out earning his hasbrat creds here on mondoweiss he dreams about trolling iof sites querying them if they have a conscientious objection to violence against palestinians. so he has a good heart and building up the courage to challenge the violent torturing oppressors. in time, all in good time.

    • I’m not sure “creole” as a disparaging simile for Modern Hebrew is appropriate

      mooser, when something so blindingly obvious is totally ignored, the obvious has to be hammered in.

    • so that would be a "NO", you have no other groups you've questioned about having a conscientious objection to violence. nor the israeli gov, nor hillel, nor aipac. you have no idea how may israelis are conscientious objectors. you're only curious about the palestinian non violent bds movement, a vibrant global movement made up of unions, academic associations, churches and grassroots movements across the world dedicated to palestinian freedom and equality, launched by 170 Palestinian unions, political parties, refugee networks, women’s organisations, professional associations, popular resistance committees and other Palestinian civil society bodies inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement -- urging nonviolent pressure on Israel until it complies with international law.

      got it.

      BDS is an inclusive, anti-racist human rights movement that is opposed on principle to all forms of discrimination, including anti-semitism and Islamophobia.

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