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Annie Robbins

Annie Robbins is Editor at Large for Mondoweiss, a mother, a human rights activist and a ceramic artist. She lives in the SF bay area. Follow her on Twitter @anniefofani

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  • Money for nothing and occupation for free: The 1994 Paris protocols on economic relations between Israel and the PLO
    • 71% of all aid money sent to the Palestinians ends up in the Israeli economy

      that should stop dead in the tracks any congressional efforts to quit funding palestine.

    • i got a little sidetracked researching Optimal Currency Areas. interesting.

      i've often wondered how much israel makes off the 'aid' palestinians get. it all goes thru israel and of course lots of it gets spent on israeli goods because palestine doesn't get to choose which products are allowed to enter. they also end up paying israel farmers , literally subsidising farms on land stolen from them. it's nerve wracking.

      palestinians are imprisoned automatic customers of israeli products.

  • Israeli Consul General wants to rescue US town from 'foreign' influence
    • stand with us to the rescue! the poor suffering olympians have not the strength in their own community to stand up to that rascal co-op. they can't find israeli products anywhere in town and it pains them so. but hardline zionists in seattle know all about bullying the metro officials and town councils. they'll set olympia straight for sure. they might not have the power of the bulldozer like they do in israel, but they'll find a way in rachel's hometown/(not).

      this whole boycott thing is dangerous for the health of our american communities and stand with us will travel far and wide to prosecute the offenders. just like they did in irvine. who rules in america? stand with israel!

    • great post. i had no idea. go olympia go.

      soar on rachel's wings and may they surround and protect you.

      this couldn't be happening in a better town.

  • It’s not propaganda if the lenses are blue and tinged with green
    • thanks for following up audrey, i didn't know if you would. your link to 972 leads to david grossman's observer article. is that what you meant?

      there was a video here the other day from around the founding of the state. a propaganda video. i'll see if i can find it.

    • I have an interesting anecdote about racism against Mizrahi Jews in Israel, but I’ll save it for another time.

      why? do tell. this has been an interesting post and thread btw, thanks.

    • of course dbg. i should have explained further. i was reading from wiki:

      With the establishment of the State of Israel, the widespread use of the talisman by Jews who came there from Islamic countries declined precipitously. Its association with superstition was out of place in the secularly conceived state, and, according to writer Alexandra Nocke, its 'Easternness' was looked down upon in the Eurocentric Ashkenazi cultural milieu that dominated.[24]

      In recent decades, that trend has been reversed with the renewed Israeli interest in Mizrahi folklore and customs and the hamsa's use is proliferating. In Israel today, it is a trendy symbol that has become "an icon of Israeliness and secularity," though its symbolism there is by no means all pervading or universal.[24] A popular 'good luck' charm, it appears on necklaces, keychains, postcards, telephone and lottery cards, and in advertisements.[24]It is also incorporated into high-end jewellery, decorative tilework and wall decorations.[24] Sometimes hamsas are inscribed with Hebrew prayers, such as the Sh'ma, Birkat HaBayit (Blessing for the Home), or Tefilat HaDerech (Traveler's Prayer).[citation needed]

      taken out of context i could see how my remark didn't make sense.' icon of Israeliness and secularity' was what i was referring to as well as the other bolded section.

    • how strange they would adopt the hamsa. well, actually not so strange. israelis seem quite proficient in adopting other cultural icons and making them their own.

  • Let's negotiate over how we divide the pizza while I eat the pizza
    • eee, Mearsheimer doesn't need my protection. also, it's difficult finding a context when people are using false quotes. i actually followed the link in good faith tom had a point but it's hard to address tom's point once i found out the quote had been manipulated. arguing for or against a false quote is rather a moot point don't you think?

    • tree, it's really difficult having any kind of conversation with people who argue my making leaps in logic (especially ones backed up by false quotes). there's supposed to be a cohesive thread between pt a and pt b not flailing away out in left field somewhere.

    • i also have my doubts with making any symbiotic comparisons between the master slave relationship vs what might motivate people to commit mass genocide. two entirely different ballgames.

    • I don’t think, prior to this post, that I’ve seen strawmanning go from merely a logical fallacy into a full fledged pathology, like you did here.

      woody, i don't know what his trip is. it's certainly not normal engagement. he seems more interested in just throwing any and everything against the wall (with abandon) to see what sticks.

    • tom, i think you are conceptually challenged. it doesn't take evidence to construe some people might have been pissed at some jews prior to the holocaust. millions of people died so obviously someone had a bone to pick. doesn't mean it was justified.

      i'm sensing a willful intent to find nefarious meaning on my part where there is none. and just for the record, i have no intention of distancing myself from mearsheimer.

    • you know I should ask my aunt about that. She lost every single member of her family in the camps apart from one cousin, I think she was 9 years old at the time. Maybe I should give you her phone number and you can ask her yourself who she pissed off, I mean there must have been a good reason why she lost her entire family....nice to see someone sticking up for Hitler.

      you're really on a roll aren't you. why on earth would anyone assume your aunt would be part of a sinister ideological collective? you're intentionally trying to construe a bunch of stuff from my post i never said while at the same time ignore the fact your link, the holland character found the need to lie to make his point. why would he do that?

      you're back here days later chewing on an old bone. you're making a fool out of yourself.

    • you’re right, Annie, it sounds like a GREAT book

      tom, why are you using this dishonest arguing technique? anyone reading this would assume i said it was a great book when i made no such claim.

      I’m willing to bet you can’t bring yourself to denounce that at all, can you?

      aren't you the nutjob that said to me "if you are willing to blame the nazis for the Holocaust" AS if i ever implied i ever didn't or this would be some kind of concession on my part?

      what's up w/you tom? seriously. i already asked you could you do me the favor of arguing like an adult? . grow up.

    • he will have the same credibility as Duke.


      in your wet dreams, you must be drunk. happy new year eee.

    • This will not end well for Mearsheimer. Atzmon is a racist

      if you seriously think you can take down Mearsheimer over his review of this book you are delusional. you should wake up. do you even see how the closing down of mocha's exhibition of the gaza childrens' art has made the art famous all over the world? and norm finkelstein is a hero in colleges all across the land. he'll go down in history for his work and brilliance. had the lobby not targetted him he'd be mildly significant teaching in the same college year after year but no..he's traveling to colleges all over the place making massive waves. he might not be rich but he's a household name and is an icon.

      you really think you can make a huge deal about atzmon (who no one would have heard of if you didn't go crazy every time he opened his mouth) and extend that passion to anyone who dares to write a review? you will only make him more famous. most people do not understand these intricacies of which you speak. most people do not translate by way of 'this really means he's saying xxxx'. everyone is not pavlov's dog.

      just let it go, but if you don't know that you are only making his star rise..just because people will resist your demand. it is over the average man's head. trust me, i'm very average and i don't understand the level of animosity dedicated to drowning these can't control opinion or history no matter how much you try. people will ask..and they will come to their own conclusions regardless of your direction.

    • you should see the movie defamation. there is also a scene where they are in a cavernous area, possibly related to the chambers (i can't recall specifically) when someone asked faxman about the holodomor and he is (very) dismissive. i had not heard this word nor had i ever heard about the 'famine' which in retrospect very much reminds me of the forced famine in china, only the holodomor was worse.

      anyway, news travels. no one seems to explore any connection from one genocide to the other wrt the holodomor and the holocaust but they were so close both in terms of time and space. it occurred to me when i first read about it maybe one reason i had not ever heard of the holodomor was to erase any chance of connection. but how could such an atrocity take place, one covered by our own msm, and never make it into our history books? why didn't i know about it til i was in my 50's?


      apparently in the urkraine they do recall and foxman doesn't want it mentioned.

      Census data reveal a shortfall of 11,000, 000 in the Ukrainian population by 1937

      includes video

    • Now I realize Atzmonologists will claim that when he refers to Jews as a “sinister ideological collective” he means it in a good way

      tom, your source link goes to adam holland, i've read enough of his crap to believe he is a bloviating liar with an agenda. watch his own commentors take him to task for overstepping and twisting as he tries to take down max. camera links to him as a source. iow, you are not helping your argument linking to adam holland.

      furthermore the blockquote you used from adam was sourced not at atzmon's (i can understand why he would not want to link to atzmon) but to harry's place except it does not read as either you or holland wrote it, reads like this at harry's:

      Question: So basically we are almost, I tell people we are almost getting into a Weimar situation, do you see that happening?

      GA: Absolu – it is very tragic to say, but I can see it. And the only thing that can save the Jews from themselves is if we the goyim, let’s say [Interviewer: ‘I heard you joined the goyim a few years ago, you are on the goyim team now’ – GA: ‘yes, yes’] if the goyim, the gentiles, are basically – can find within ourselves the powers to contain these sinister ideological collectives.

      (i will give you the benefit of the doubt you didn't check your sources, unlike holland, who actually used a blockquote and switched the text from his own source tsk tsk)

      it is a small distinction, but a distinction none the less. so what do you think he is referring to when he references 'these' sinister ideological 'collectives'? it might interest you to know he was referencing the diaspora and the lobby specifically prior to talking about this. i listened from around 50 minutes in. but he couldn't have been referencing Jews as a “sinister ideological collective” because he very clearly spoke in multiples which implies collectives within a group. it does not imply the whole group, not unless you read it sinisterly.

      i am not an Atzmonologists. nor do i think he was referencing "these ....collectives" as a 'good thing', at all.

      he is again implying that they were responsible for what happened after the Weimar period=the Holocaust.

      he is implying there were collectives within the jewish community who pissed people off both today, and during weimer period. i would imagine that might be true tho i would never blame anyone for their own genocide. being pissed at people is not a reason to kill them or use collective punishment, ever. but would it be to imposing to ask "what pissed them off"? i know what pisses people like myself off today wrt the lobby. would i agree the lobby is a 'sinister ideological collective'? probably. would i references hagee's ilk a "sinister ideological collective". yep. would i reference the israel lobby and the christian zionists as "these sinister ideological collectives." yeah, i would.

      and no i don't think it is a good thing, i think it is dangerous for our country.

      also, why do you think holland found it necessary to change the format as well as two words? why didn't he copy and paste? he must have had to purposely switch the words. that's akin to lying, but then we already know he's a liar.

    • if you are willing to blame the nazis for the Holocaust

      if i am willing to blame nazis? why are you addressing me like this?

      this sentence says quite clearly that blaming the Germans is reprehensible.

      could you do me the favor of arguing like an adult? what's clear is you do not want to address the words themselves, the words that proceeded these. you want to put it in a pessah cooker and then mix it all around, spit up another of your 'clearly' interpretations and argue the stawman.

      btw, the answer is no. what he said doesn't even imply 'blaming the Germans is reprehensible'.

      you're hooked on the blame angle. you're a one trick pony. you need to get out in the real world and stop bouncing your narratives off children. i don't know why i took you seriously before.

      see ya round.

    • sorry, i shouldn't have gotten so emotional. it is a constant battle tom. but the mere suggestion i don't fight this stereotype is absurd. from the same thread at my previous link from today:

      it’s just my nature, i can’t hear something that grinds away at what i believe to be true and not say something. so i will repeat

      “the Jews are so f8cking stupid as to kill their own state ”

      not all jews. not by a long shot.

      i fight for what i believe in. everyday!

    • if you *could* actually ‘stand up and say Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’

      excuse me? i just said it already! or doesn't this count: “i’ll be the first to stand up and say jews are not a “sinister ideological collective”?

      Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’ Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’

      all better now???

      maybe you should try readjusting your antenas because your radar is out of wack.

    • and it would be very helpful in this context if you *could* actually ‘stand up and say Jews are not a ‘sinister ideological collective’, and stand up like that whenever you hear people inciting against Jews as Jews – just as you would do for muslims, palestinians, women, gays etc.

      tom, perhaps if you visited some of the other threads besides the ones involving atzmon you might get more informed as to my posting habits. here's just one from today (more of the same ilk on that thread). this is rather a running feature here wrt my personal frustrations. but then you wouldn't know that because you probably don't follow the everyday chitchat around here. like taking crap for defending my version of moral giants the other day. ciao.

    • i'll be the first to stand up and say jews are not a “sinister ideological collective”. but is there a “sinister ideological collective” operating within the jewish community? it sure seems like there is to me.

    • i saw a video on youtube once interviewing some guy (he looked like a priest or something) claiming 'there couldn't have been gas chambers there' something about the updraft or ceiling height or some other ridiculous explanation. don't these people have better things to focus on? what a weirdo.

    • now Judaism isn’t a ‘pure’ religion

      some zionists think judaism has merged with zionism. i'd call that a problem wrt branding.

    • for anyone who is interested you might check out the wiki pages for self hatred vs self hating jew. here is the history for self hatred (notice all the references to 'jewish self hatred"). at some point they divided them into two categories.

      'self hatred' is a dry entry with 2 references and one footnote whereas self hating jew is loaded with references, further reading and external links.

      apparently accusations of hatred is not all that uncommon in the jewish culture. sad.

    • I wonder why I never read about self-hating christians, self-hating muslims, self-hating hindus, or self-hating buddhists.

      i could be wrong but i think the term is one generally used as a form of criticism and attack against ones own kind. most people do not self identify as self hating even if they don't like themselves or are unhappy about their station in life. they might say or think, i hate my life which is somewhat different. i've generally heard it as an accusation and one made by jews towards other jews. it's a cultural phenomena that has not permeated cross culturally imho. that is probably why you have not heard it used against people of other religions. and it's not limited to religion. someone could say for example 'you're a self hating black'. but they generally don't.

      there's a strong stigma attached but my hunch is that the reaction to this is also a learned reaction from programing. for example if a woman made a misogynistic comment and one called her a self hating woman it would probably fly right over her head or maybe she could care less. whereas this term when applied to jews it's really supposed to sting.

    • If someone asks in the context of the Holocaust “why do these things keep happening to Jews”.......why do we need to change the subject to denial or justification of other crimes?

      it just sounds different when i exclude " as if they are to blame for their own genocide ". sometimes questions aren't asked to blame, sometimes they are just asked to get answers.

      If someone asks in the context of the Holocaust “why do these things keep happening to Jews” why do we need to change the subject to blame? can't we blame the nazis for the holocaust and still asked “why do these things keep happening to Jews” ?

    • sure ToivoS, and do we hold the same standards in our society for those who deny the nakba? or do they still write for the msm?

      also, i can't defend atzmon because i have not read but smidgens of his work. but i will definitely defend mearsheimer. he's a smart man, there's no reason he should have sat down and spent days reading his blog. instead he read atzmons book and he liked it. so what? we have supporters of ethnic cleansing right here on this blog and we discourse with them every single day/ why is atzmon worse than them?

    • you know what's interesting about tom's comment..he quotes him and then lends his interpretation which seems really skewered from what atzmon says. but then he links to another post of atzmon's writing that's really interesting. it's very strange because atzmon at no time said others were to blame, he suggested (implied) the way forward was to ask “why do they pick on me?”

      anyone who has studied psychology knows the focus should be on the self, self reflection.

    • and one more thing shmuel....i saw what they did to norm. they attacked relentlessly. and i adore norm. it's like the boy who cried wolf..maybe atzmon is the wolf but i've heard this accusation before so i don't fully trust it. the attack dogs are out in full force..that doesn't mean they are right nor does it mean they are wrong. it very well could be lots of what atzmon says is worth listening to. maybe not..but it sounds like it might be a good book.

    • i'm just not convinced it was a mistake shmuel because i have not read the book. maybe it is a good book. have you thought of that? perhaps it is an intriguing book. perhaps he has something to say.

      the weird thing about the whole atzmon thing to me is why they go crazy over him. why not just ignore him? it seems bizarre. but he talked a lot about inner tribal stuff and since i am not part of the tribe i don't fully get it and i don't fully get why he drives them nuts. i am just an outsider. but when i read the smidgens of atzmon that i have read they just don't seem worthy of the intensity of reaction. perhaps it is because i have grown accustomed to unspeakable pain and suffering in this conflict that whatever he has to say doesn't really compare to the state sanctioned sadistic cruelty i read about day in and day out. for example...they might annex the WB and the emotions wrt atzmon seems to even override that. it just seems..over the top.

    • i thought eee might have offered you some free pizza to side with him on this one

      pizza? who doesn't love pizza. and i'm hungry too. wow, another tough choice. pizza vs ethnic cleansing? another bite sure is tempting. bet no one would notice. damn, it's that ol conscience calling. my stomachs a-churning but i gotta go for abstaining. tough choice but i'm not down with war crimes. it's awfully tempting tho, a damn fine pizza indeed.

    • Unfortunately, I don’t think Mearsheimer really addressed the issue.

      no, but he addressed the book.

    • wow, i'm so confused. let me see if i can logic my way thru this difficult maze of conflicting opinions. eee vs Mearsheimer ? mini hasbarist nakba denier vs an American professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, international relations theorist. Known for his book on offensive realism, The Tragedy of Great Power Politics, co-author of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, which was subsequently published as a book, becoming a New York Times Best Seller. His most recent book, entitled Why Leaders Lie: The Truth About Lying in International Politics, "catalogs the kinds of lies nations tell each other."

      tough choice! hmm..sorry eee, think i'll trust Mearsheimer

    • i read walt's blog this morning with mearsheimer's thoughtful response. i don't fully understand the intensity of the reaction to the man myself. you rarely hear people going out of their mind about netanyahu or cheney or whoever to the degree people go ballistic over him. it is as if his scalp is a trophy and they are fighting over it. really bizarre.

  • Knesset to vote on full Israeli annexation of the West Bank
    • RoHa, i suppose i stand corrected. i do appreciate the patience you've shown me over the years wrt my unwordliness. or perhaps that's unwordiness. i'm sure there's a name for my clumsy bastardization of the english language.

    • Did a hundred generations of Jews really have the hope of “restoring their national life”? Did they really care?

      (This is not a rhetorical question. I really want to know.)

      there's something like 5-7 generations in a hundred years. so a hundred generations dates back hundreds of years before the concept of nationalism even existed. obviously the answer is no.

    • And people in the Muslim world don’t see the distinctions.

      maybe you should give these communities more credit. sure, they've got masses of people to match the masses of white trailer trash just like we have in this country but the muslim world is not totally comprised of a bunch of racist idiots. i think there are an abundance smart enough to realize all jews are not zionists.

      you have to have a vision, a good vision and then build off that vision. it's detrimental to our movement to pretend each and everyone of us can't make a difference. we are growing and jews in the movement are vital. VITAL. muslims in our movement are vital. VITAL. please, just show some respect.

    • it's frustrating clairseoir. but i'm going back there any minute and giving it another shot. i will not give in to the memes of netanyahu. everyone should be denouncing this crap and saying NO, this certainly doesn't represent all jews. but...nooooo. why don't we all just throw the righteous ones under a bus and pretend they make no difference. when in reality they DO. odd because in a way it very much signifies they don't even think this site makes a difference. and it does. our voices are making a huge difference (granted i am not jewish but still i stand in solidarity w/palestinians and jews in this movement) to the point millions and millions are being spent to counter our voices. and when you look at groups like sjp, jvp, bds movement, free gaza, end the occupation, european flotilla movement, code pink..i could go on and on and on. identified as the 'hubs of deligitimization' by ruet..all of these groups have literally thousand of jews. but like..they don't exist or even count according to netanyahu and ...posters on this site apparently. very frustrating. when i think about the amount of time and energy i have devoted to this movement..well multiply that by hundreds of thousands of hrs in culmination. how long will it take for any recognition, ANY for the jews amoungst us fighting for justice.

      unbelievably discouraging to hear this kind of rhetoric on this blog. just mindblowing.

      happy new year. think i'll just cry a little more.

      (edit: and that speaks nothing for local groups all across america like meca. groups that don't have thousands of members but very much supported by local jews)

    • Why doesn’t the international community see things as we do?

      they do.

    • it's almost incomprehensible they would pull this move now as a response to the UN bid. it demonstrates their desperate, weak inflexibility. it is almost as if they think the world will stand still for them another few decades as they plunder and kill with abandon.

      there is a sadistic streak in their policies.

    • don’t forget Bibi’s UN speech. ON BEHALF OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE. The arrogance. But I take him at his word.

      i am sure there is nothing bibi would prefer than for everyone to take him at his word, and for his word to be true. i'm sure he'd like nothing better than to be king of the jews. but he's not and the policies of israel do not represent all jews, whether they do to some people or not. so i would just like to empower the voices of jews i like. imho we throw our friends under the buss when we pretend they don't count and don't matter and are voiceless. my point is not to have an argument with anyone about who is more right. or whether there are a million or multiple millions or whatever.

      it's just my nature, i can't hear something that grinds away at what i believe to be true and not say something. so i will repeat

      "the Jews are so f8cking stupid as to kill their own state "

      not all jews. not by a long shot.

    • i fear this represents more than just the Masada cult of the settlers.

      also, this is not 'the jews' which implies all the jews.

    • there's nothing unilateral about going to the UN. it is against internationla law to unilaterally annex land. that is what israel is doing. big dif

      also, since when does " full Israeli annexation of the West Bank" translate into 'just the settled areas'? do you have any link to back up your assertion?

  • Ron Paul for Palestinian statehood: 'I believe in self-determination of peoples'
    • He then goes on to say, “why should we care about a tiny group of people on a tiny piece of land.”

      Come on, Dan, it’s a legit point. “Why are you so obsessed with singling out Israel?” is a common question.

      i think paul was referencing palestine, not israel.

  • 'Young, Jewish and Proud' issues challenge to the Jewish community
  • 'The Good Wife' takes on Israel/Palestine, Islamophobia and the Israel lobby
    • Like-if the “civilized” Muslim doesn’t get his way, he’ll return to his violent ways.

      'they'd kill eachother' is non specific. i didn't interpret it to mean what you suggested. also, not the staging of the exit was the same as the zionist saying that stuff to eli about the 4000 years..(blame). in the context of the two men (the zionist lobbiest and the muslim exiting) one was more blaming of eli while the other comment seemed to say 'why do we keep being enemies'?

    • i think al-Said wanted to hire the firm because the attorney general's wife works there and eli gold is also the attorney general's campaign manager. i liked his character. i watched it again and didn't find him creepy in the least. i thought spending 10 million dollars on an anti islamophobia campaign was a noble investment.

    • thanks for the review. coincidentally i watched it online this morning.

      interesting you didn't mention the one thing that disappointed me, a palestinian was the killer.

      i liked her take down of the judge. perhaps now that eli has taken on the JLF's account we'll be seeing more of the pissy kahane in upcoming episodes.

      also, i wouldn't have described al-said as a 'creepy opportunistic guy with ulterior motives.'

  • The view from the West Bank: Statehood bid? What statehood bid?
  • Although attention is focused on New York, the real struggle for Palestinian rights is playing out on the ground
    • thank you for writing about bassem sasha. i knew his trial had started. if you could call it a trial. it's so horrible for him and his family.

      there is a moving photo of him here. he has so much dignity. look in his pure eyes.

  • White House sells Quartet statement on negotiations as 'a major accomplishment in Israel's favor'
  • Turkish government releases identities of IDF soldiers who attacked the Mavi Marmara
    • “Traitor” is the right term for people who think the US Congress is “bought by Zionists”.


    • You would be singing a different tune if some Israelis put out a list of Americans that visited Pakistan and said they were potential terrorists.

      lol, what are you talking about eee. israel puts out lists all the time. go look at their jails. you think it is different if it is americans vs palestinians eee? that's their gig in the land of apartheid. they make the lists and haul in whoever the hell they want. no trial nothing. this is so not israel, it's turkey.

    • So the two rights make a wrong argument is the one you support.

      au contraire. my point being look on the bright side.

    • of one thing i am quite certain, israel will not be getting a taste of it's own medicine. you know why i know? because turkey wouldn't lower itself to that kind of degradation. it's just a list. go back to bed.

    • and what are the chances the whole town he lives in will be rounded up and arrested and dna taken and hundreds of people questioned for months? and then at the end of the months turkey announces certain boys have confessed? would you believe it? would you? who pumped bullets into innocent brains eee? and who will pay, israeli style?

    • This list is completely random. It is just Jews that served in the IDF at some time.

      wow, why does that sound familiar. let's look on the bright side 3e. what are the chances a special unit will assassinate a few random jews in the wrong house before apprehending one of the suspects? what are the chances a special unit will kidnap one of their relatives children in the middle of the night and torture him til he confesses his relative was on the mavi marmara or was in fact one of the shooters? what are the chances they will hold that child until one of the suspects offers himself and his confession to save his family? what are the chances his home will be demolished? or, as with the case of the recent eliat attack, what are the chances turkey will declare the verdict prior to any trial and simply bomb their homes and kill them? iow, this isn't israel we are dealing with here, this is turkey. they are more civilized.

      i'm wondering if it was you on that list and you were brought to trial and you had a choice of an israeli military kangaroo court or the kind of court turkey has in mind which would you choose? would you like charges or a simple administrative detention? what about access to the lawyer? or if perchance your choice was to confess (and be released in a 18 months) vs waiting years for a trial by military court, would you confess?

      just curious.

    • unless it's true

    • jew counting! throw them to the wolves!

    • denial denial denial. but israel would know about grabbing relatives and holding them ransom for others now wouldn't they? wassamatta eee, no fair? seriously, i have no idea. but i will tell you one thing, grabbing a quote from one deputy prosecutor for the city of istanbul doesn't quite cut it for a federal investigation. but then again since all the israel citizens have bailed out of turkey along with the ambassador maybe they were hard up for connections. bummer. cheerio.

    • taxi, dbg is a joke. his new link provides nothing connecting turkey to this info.

    • the “turkish intelligence” merely recycled the names and said they were responsible for the flotilla.

      so cough it up dude. where did the turkish intelligence republish these names and claim they were responsible? don't give me 3rd hand sites. you've been bloviating all over this thread, so cough it up or stfu.

    • as an aside i was around blogging here after cast lead. i have no recollection of turkey publishing a list of war criminals so i'd like to see it. certainly it hit the mainstream did it not? so where is it?

      or are you full of hot air? replacing real data with bogus links?

    • gee how impressive/not. lets's check out the first 5 on your link:

      201001250016 2010-01-25 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 1 Terrorists Western Europe Armed Assault Firearms
      200812170026 2008-12-17 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 0 Government (Diplomatic) Western Europe Armed Assault Fake Weapons
      200609170015 2006-09-17 Norway Oslo Individual 0 0 Private Citizens & Property Western Europe Facility/Infrastructure Attack Firearms
      200303210002 2003-03-21 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 0 Business Western Europe Facility/Infrastructure Attack Incendiary
      199603100001 1996-03-10 Norway Oslo Unknown 0 1 Private Citizens & Property Western Europe Assassination

      checking 201001250016:

      01/25/2010: On Monday night at 0200, the home of Mullah Krekar, a Kurdish cleric who helped found the militant Islamist group Ansar al-Islam, was targeted by unknown gunmen in the Toyen district in Oslo, Norway. Shots were fired through a window, on the fifth floor while several people were at his home, wounding one man. After shots were fired, two men were seen running from the scene. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack.

      woa, nothing like proving your point/not. here's #2

      Incident Summary:
      12/17/2008: On Wednesday, letters containing white powder were mailed to the United States (U.S.) embassy in Oslo, Oslo, Norway. Letters were also sent to 17 other U.S. embassies across Europe. The letters were post-marked from Texas but no group claimed responsibility for the attacks. The powder has been found to be harmless.

      what's your point? where's the cast lead data? quit wasting our time .put up or stfu.

    • laughing stock of the world ?

      in your dreams. more like heroes.

    • lists of Jews?

      how convenient! make an ethnic state and then when they commit war crimes pretend we notice because of their ethnicity! yeah, we don't like your war crimes because we're...racist! how convenient. seriously guys, is this drummed into you since birth? get a grip. excuses excuses excuses. name another occupation on the globe running as long as your apartheid, then try telling me it's all about the jews we notice. not!

    • are you sure she was also part of the Israeli force stopping the marmara?

      that's what trials are for. i'm a firm believer in innocent until proven guilty. bring on the trials.

    • cough it up big shot. publish it. where's your evidence? show me this exact list from cast lead. of the soldiers.

    • yes, you have a strange mind american. most people don't go in for assassinations. that's a state thing and a rightwing extremist thing. zionism is embedded in both the state and the rightwing.

    • since cast lead called up reservists it stands to reason most of their standing military participated in cast lead. so why wouldn't most of the soldiers involved in the raid have participated in cast lead? how does this 'prove' anything.

      besides, all this means is those people could be tried in turkey or where ever else they plan on prosecuting. israel and the citizen of israel should consider the rules of law and war and understand not everyone is going to go along with israel flipping the bird at international law.

    • (no English translation yet)

      try google.

      Champions reserve Ami Ayalon and Ze'ev Almog Although performed Sea Force commander and commander of Squadron 13, but they retired from the army many years ago, and Elon even visited before the action on the Marmara. Also are listed.

      really?Ami Ayalon is not on this list. neither is Ze'ev Almog. where is the list published in hebrew? can you find it? it looks like they might be working off a different list than the one published by the turkish government.

    • International law stipulates that for soldiers of one country to be prosecuted by another the country in which the war crime was committed has to be proven as unable to properly investigate the incident.

      but the crime didn't take place in israel. it took place in international waters.

    • hophmi, re your allegation the IHH compiled this list, they didn't. i heard from my friend in turkey.

      Regarding the Zaman article.

      Quote -

      İstanbul Deputy Public Prosecutor Ateş Hasan Sözen told Today's Zaman that the İstanbul Prosecutor's Office did not order any state institution to identify the soldiers. “No state institution had such a request, nor does it have any information on this. The prosecutor conducting the investigation has given no such order,”

      - end quote

      This investigtion was done directly under the auspices of the Prime Ministers office as part of the Turkish panel's investigation.

      Quote -

      ... a list of Israelis -- reportedly prepared as a result of a Facebook search -- has been drawn up by the Humanitarian Aid Foundation (İHH), the Turkish charity that owned the raided ship.

      - end quote

      A - notice 'a' NOT 'the' - list was drawn up by IHH and was submitted to the government. They are trying to be involved and help out. I wish they wouldn't. The passenger statements given during the investigations are more than enough.

      I know people who were asked questions during these investigations.

      It is possible that Istanbul Deputy Public Prosecutor Ateş Hasan Sözen is talking about something which he knows nothing about - notice 'Deputy' Public Prosecutor.

      it does seem unlikely a deputy public defender for the city of istanbul is involved in this investigation run out of the turkish governments ministry of justice. that would be akin to having a deputy public defender for the city of chicago making statements about something holder is prosecuting. whole different branch of government, but then i don't know enough about the turkish government to be sure. let's hear what Mehmet Akif Ekinci of Turkey's Ministry of Justice has to say before jumping to conclusions.

    • just google their names. some of them pop right up. like the first one Agai Yehezkel, RANK Brigadier General.

    • interesting

      The statement comes in response to a report by the Sabah daily on Monday which said MİT, responding to a request from the İstanbul Chief Prosecutor's Office, had obtained information on the identities of the Israeli soldiers who killed eight Turkish citizens and one Turkish-American in last year's flotilla raid, identifying almost all of the soldiers who took part in the deadly raid through Facebook.

      Sabah alleged in its story that the İstanbul Chief Prosecutor's Office had earlier written to Israeli authorities requesting the full names and residential addresses of the military and government officials who gave the orders to attack the flotilla, in addition to information about those who carried out the orders. Israel refused to provide the information, so the prosecutor asked MİT to share any intelligence information it had so far collected about the Israeli raid.

      Sabah said that upon the request of Mehmet Akif Ekinci, the prosecutor conducting the investigation, intelligence units first examined images of the raid and then launched “a commando hunt” on social networking websites such as Facebook and Twitter. They also reportedly examined pictures of a visit by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to the top-security Flotilla 13 base on the Israeli coast near Haifa, which conducted the flotilla raid, in October of last year, to identify the soldiers present. After identifying a few soldiers, Hebrew-speaking experts examined their online correspondence with other Israeli soldiers who are thought to have taken part in the Mavi Marmara raid, and were able to identify more of those involved via their "friends" lists on Facebook. The names of the soldiers were also reportedly confirmed by the Turkish intelligence units' sources in Israel.

      well, there are bound to be different statements made so we will have to keep abreast of the news on this.

    • pabelmont, i think the graphic above addresses the higher ups.

    • if the opinion is written by

      Richard Falk is a professor of international law and serves as the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory; Phyllis Bennis is a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies and author of Understanding the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Primer.

      vs a known columbian torturer why yes, it would.

    • The legal flaws of the Palmer Commission flotilla report

      Overall, however, the report of the Palmer Commission is severely flawed from an international law perspective. The most significant finding of the report is its most dangerous and legally dubious: the conclusion that Israel’s blockade of Gaza, in effect since mid-2007, was somehow, despite being severely harmful to the 1.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza, a legitimate act of self-defense. The report gives considerable attention to the illegal rockets fired into Israel by Palestinian militants mainly associated with Hamas, and notes, appropriately, that “stopping these violent acts was a necessary step for Israel to take in order to protect its people.” But while that justifies protective action, it does not make the case for a valid claim of self-defense under international law.

      The report ignores altogether the crucial fact that a unilateral ceasefire had been observed by Hamas ever since the end of the Gaza War in early 2009. An earlier joint Israeli-Palestinian ceasefire had been declared in July 2008, and had led to a virtual halt in rocket attacks until it was broken by Israel in November of that year, in a lethal assault on Gaza that led to a crumbling of the ceasefire and thereafter to Israel’s Operation Cast Lead on December 27, 2008. The Palmer report cannot be legally persuasive on the central issue of self-defense without addressing the relevance of these ceasefires that gave Israel a viable security alternative to blockade and force. The fact that the word “ceasefire” does not even appear in the 105-page document underscores why this report is so unconvincing except to Israel’s partisans.


      Allowing a naval blockade – which the Palmer Commission acknowledges to be an act of war – to be imposed by Israel against the helpless civilian population of Gaza and then accepted as ‘legal’ by the UN, it is a sad day for both the global rule of law and the well-being of some of the most vulnerable and abused people on the planet.

    • the flotilla attack was an act of war.

    • great interview katheen, thanks

    • don't mess with Turkey.

  • The UN application for the State of Palestine and the future of the PLO
    • simone, do you have a link to the letter accompanying the declaration? and if it accompanies it does it then become part of it? there seems to be quite a lot of buzz the plo would be 'replaced' by "the state of palestine" as representing the palestinian people.

    • This is why Israel is in my view so keen for the whole ‘Jewish state’ recognition by Palestine – no right of return for Palestinians.

      yes of course that is the point.

    • It’s simply not possible for the PLO to renounce “inalienable rights” in the first place, no matter how spineless they are.

      that's my understanding also. according to doyle anyway. either it's true or not but if they wrote it in, it's there.

  • 'NYT' Public Editor lets Bronner off the hook
    • gentile media? what's that? csm?

    • You are so filled with agitprop venom

      lol! bloviate a little why don't you!

    • admitted? don't you mean he reported the NY Times covered the Elah archeological story in 10/08.

      That was 6 months before the Lone Star speakers bureau even existed.

      that would be a neat trick.

      loan star: What We Do: Speakers Bureau

      "Founded in 2008, the Lone Star Speakers Bureau coordinates engagements in Israel, the United States and Europe for its Israel-based speakers."

      i'm still tripping over the math here but if an article written in oct 08 was 6 months before the bureau even existed, according to you, the bureau couldn't have existed in 08.


      The Sderot event covered by the NY Times was similarly covered by over 100 media worldwide (including The Washington Post, CNN, AP, etc.)

      any dates on when they were covered? did wapo cover the event before the nyt? what about cnn. or did they republish bonner's story?

    • this is the weirdest framing:

      Of the six, he said, only one involved an instance in which he had received a pitch from Lone Star and, on that basis, decided to write about it. The article concerned the Jewish National Fund and was about a fortified play area for children in the Israeli border town of Sderot.

      In the rest of the cases except one, he said, he did not receive a pitch from Lone Star and was unaware that the story involved a Lone Star client . . .

      so iow....only one did he receive a pitch from Lone Star and in the rest of the cases except one (other) was he aware it involved a lone star client.

      which means, according to bonner, there were 2, not 'only' one, but the other was not 'pitched'.

      never mind that 'other' just happens to be very political and looking to

      generate serious publicity and generate fundraising from the get-go,” Willner said.

      and they did it thru lone star.

      i wonder how much money they raised? maybe the nyt should just come out and admit that it is ok to be an unabashed supporter of (as bonner puts it ) strengthening the tie of the Jewish people to the land at the expense of palestinians. but that framing..why say 'only' one if it was two. and if he doesn't include 'pitches' and alleged ' unawareness' then how many were there? 6. color him clueless...not. this is his gang in jerusalem.

      great report adam. nail em!

  • Obama's impossible dilemma--and ours
    • thank you very much cloak. i know what it's like to have days where thoughts crystallize in ways that don't represent who i really am.

    • C&D, i find your statement an influx of 5 million zionists would lead to the final destruction of america to be strange and hurtful. it's not the people themselves for the most part it is the policies that surround the support for the criminal state. it's the support of those policies threatening our country. this country has always absorbed people and been better for it. i'd much rather they were here then there.

    • i'm over following your lame ass links that 'prove' no point. you gotta link from turkey circa last year with the list, from turkey? let me know. in fact blockquote it cuz i'm done following your lame ass links.

    • slater, i know it seems complicated but it isn't. when everything seems like it's in chaos and you can't see the way out that just means you're so emotionally involved you can't see the forest for the trees. that goes for big things as well and small things.

      so, what's the first thing you learn in life in terms of solving your problems? tell the truth. who's telling the american people the truth? we can't fix this until the cards are on the table, and they are not on the table. obama didn't tell the truth. the faster tha american public learn the truth the better. the faster they learn why all the congress people go to israel and speak israel's praises the better.

      In my view, the withdrawal of American support might well result in an Israel that would become even more irrational and violent than it already is. Do we really think that the settlers and the large numbers of Israelis that support them would give up? There is little chance that the increasingly hardline Israeli police and military would or could enforce an end to the occupation

      it is not relevant to our actions right now whether they would give up or not. it should not be a determining factor in doing what's right. you either support the settlements and the occupation or you do not. so which is it? if you don't then don't advocate funding it. it's that simple. take each decision as it comes and do what's right. don't act in fear about what israel might do. always do what is the best moral decision.

      as far as domestic politics are concerned i don't see how it really effects me that much. there really isn't anything obama is doing most republicans wouldn't do in his place. the image might be different but basically it is the same policy.

      i was reading the nyt comment column the other day in response to obama's UN speech. over 300 comments (by recommend)and all negative. (i only got 3/4 thru..there were about 5 pro israel comments). the only comment repeated several times was people saying they pounded the pavement for obama but will not vote for him again. obama shouldn't be worrying about the jewish vote. he should be worried about loosing the left, we're bigger.

    • dbg, he wasn't mocking about nazi germany (is it my imagination or do you guys bring up nazis everyday?) he said 'traditional' 'organic', ' i doubt it'. or something like that.

      organic just means sans chemicals. when they stopbeating up children and whisking them away in the middle of the night..whatever. quit sugar coating no rights. just stop. you can't put lipstick on this pig.

    • slater, after writing a long paragraph in response i reviewed what you wrote and realized i perhaps read it wrong. i thought you meant even tho it was unbearable for you that you had concluded nothing at all can be done. so thank you for correcting my misconception and i will go back and review the rest of the text again. sorry.

    • why don't you read mig's comment again yourself mr hotshot. mig never claimed hitler won with a majority he merely provided a link. this is a common misconception anyway. i recall phil didn't even know this not that long ago. contrary to eee's bloviating it doesn't concluded anyone is lying, it concludes they don't know.

      what's with the hasbrats today? lots of chirping little endless nothing comments.

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