Total number of comments: 391 (since 2011-04-05 06:06:45)
anonymouscomments
Mondoweiss.net supporteri apologize in advance for my rants. brevity is often impossible for me when the topic is I/P.
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calm whose nerves? the nerves of right wing off-the-rails zionists who help run an international MIC endless conflict paradigm (that also supports the western banking system in its drive to crush any systems outside the fold of in-debt nations beholden to corporate and central banking dictates)?
average israelis would not have nerves calmed as missiles hit dimona or tel aviv even. maybe they mean it would calm the nerves of the many iranians who would end up dead..... nerves that don't even fire anymore are calm i suppose..... hell, it may "calm the nerves" of many people all over the region, not just iranians.
i think the most common thing we get from zionists is this....
they acuse the "other", generally muslims, of what THEY are 100% guilty of. same goes for most everything israel/israelis say about palestinians. it does seem odd, as their fanciful BS actually makes people look.... and what do they find corrupting our gov and foreign policy? the zionists!
down is up, 2+2=5. hell, it is 1984.
it was an intel ship... but does anyone think a reference to the USS liberty is called for?
ralph NADER of all people, calling it out:
link to youtube.com
BTW, i am of the opinion that the israeli attempt at a false-flag on the USS liberty (which would reshape the ME, as we would turn on egypt; much like the lavon affair intended) was entirely agreed to by key people in the USG. therefore i hold them both equally responsible [israel and the US]. i believe this due to the US response to the distress call, and the speed and efficiency of the cover-up, which should have consisted of more righteous indignation from the top of the USG than what we saw.
i asked a certain colonel in the air force i know about the USS liberty, to see his response. i thought he'd defend the standard story or something. he responded quickly with "that was an act of war". of course, in my opinion it was not an act of war.... it was a planned false-flag between the highest levels of our two governments (a true axis of evil?), which was unsuccessful. so it was an act of US political elite treachery and a SCAD (state crime against democracy).
i won't go into another event that mirrored the same high level MO... ;)
I think they are keeping him alive for 2 reasons
1) pulling the plug is not something Christian Zionists in the US want to hear about
2) whenever they should decide to let him pass (to hell if there is one) there will be political timing involved. Nothing is apolitical when it comes to Zionism.... The death will precipitate some events/marches staged to provoke friction. So he'll "die" when the timing is right.
people are raising the question of the relevance to I/P.
for me it is quite relevant. this displays a quite common tendency among tribal/ethnic/religious groups to cover the crimes committed by those with power, within the group (if not even rationalize that a given crime, was not even a crime; eg israeli apartheid).
the members of the "group" almost assume a collective consciousness, thus become resistant to internalizing or even acknowledging crimes or injustice perpetrated by leaders of the "group". they identify so strongly with the collective itself, they almost feel a personal responsibility for the actions of the few/elite (and the mirror of this stunted thinking, from the outside, fuels much of modern antisemitism). this often leads to either denial/rationalization (the way most jews support israeli lawlessness/crimes), or for some, quite the opposite, where people feel a need to tell the truth, change the collective actions, and profess "not in my name" (i think this personal reaction plays a subconscious role in how phil, myself, and many of jewish descent approach the conflict... our jewish heritage not only informed us of the conflict, but we do feel a personal responsibility of sorts, even if we disagree with such thought paradigms).
with jews, this sense of *tribalism* and loyalty to the tribe is quite thick. one used to ask "is it good for the jews?". i am only ethnically, half jewish, but i still had some of this tribal feeling instilled in me. i still may.
one might still ask how an orthodox jewish community in brooklyn has any connection to the government of israel. i suggest it is connected in a loose way, but the larger point is that it shows a tribal means of action, exhibited across many groups, throughout all of known history.
the question is if an individual can realize they are subject to such self-destructive biases, and if they can rise above them.
link to thedailybeast.com
this article needs to be highlighted. as much as mjayrosenberg and even beinart have moved things in a positive *direction* they both gloss over 1948. neither is honest about the refugees, or the degree to which they diminish or disregard their plight.
they both are committed to a *jewish* state, and by extension, cementing the dispossession of 1948 (maybe they would accept some very limited form of return? who cares...). i don't even mind so much if they want to make this ethnocentric self-interested argument, out of "jewish suffering", jewish "self-determination" or whatnot, but they need to be honest about the history and where this leaves refugees caught in the wheels of zionism. i make similar arguments out of realpolitik at times, but i know it is zionist power that i am bowing to. i am explicit about what is right, but sometimes ask what can you do when violent right wing zionist extremists, supported by the majority of israelis, stand in the way?
but this is big that such previously verboten topics are slipping towards the MSM, and written in a very clear and well supported manner.
Kathleen, was Kathleen taken on huffpo, or was it the other way round? Or is it just a coincidence?
(BTW like the comment)
link to huffingtonpost.com
when einstein comes up i have to link to this... or just whenever, cause it is such an amazing 1948 editorial, signed by einstein and other prominent US jews.
link to physics.harvard.edu
talks unflinchingly of the fascist terrorist menachem begin, mentions deir yassin, and jewish terrorism (even jew-on-jew terror), and the fascist roots of begin's party (likud being a descendant of this party).
....those were the days.... if we could only get the NYTimes to quote itself, let alone report like it used to.
MW on using the (old) NYT to refute the (current day) NYT-
link to mondoweiss.net
This is my FB message regarding Obama's utterly shameless (and *dangerous*) lies here. You MWers already know this, but nonetheless....
Said Obama, "When faced with a regime that threatens global security and denies the Holocaust and threatens to destroy Israel, the United States will do everything in our power to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon."
How many serious LIES can he squeeze in one statement, on such a serious issue?
1) Iran does not threaten global security, and have not initiated a war in their modern existence [while we pushed Iraq to attack them (and even gave Iraq chemical weapons to use on them), overthrew their democratically elected leader with the CIA and installed and armed the Shah for decades, and aid terror groups which commit acts of terror in Iran]. For comparison, does an illegal war on Iraq based on lies ring a bell (~1 million dead)? The apartheid occupation and colonization of millions living in the West Bank mean anything?
2) Iran does not deny the Holocaust, and have openly made statements noting the horror of the Holocaust and affirming its existence. Ahmadinejad does host people who question aspects of the Holocaust and some who deny it- get over it. He only goes so far as to say that it should be open to research and revisionism, quite repulsive, but these are the odd populist rantings of a fairly impotent President.
3) Iran DOES NOT threaten to destroy Israel. Iran has never threatened to strike Israel, and only has stated it will retaliate IF attacked. There is one out of context, incorrect translation, where Ahmadinejad quoted an Imam indicating that the Zionist regime ruling over Jerusalem will in time fall/cease to exist. The context of the quoted speech was referring to other (similarly) oppressive regimes which also have met a similar fate- the USSR, Saddam's regime, and the Shah. Iran was not indicating they would take any active role in a fall of the regime. In fact, Israel seems intent on destroying itself, and we know the ancient history of the two previous, fairly short lived, Jewish states of Israel.
link to antiwar.com
On the other hand, many Israeli and US officials, including those at the highest levels, HAVE threatened to attack Iran and have sought to change the regime.... shameless.
3) Obama clearly implies Iran is trying to get a nuclear weapon. There is no evidence of this, and much to the contrary. Their nuclear program is legal and monitored, under the terms of the NPT, of which they are a signatory. Also, two NIEs (2007, 2011) indicate that it is the US intelligence consensus opinion, that Iran is NOT developing a nuclear weapon. No solid evidence has been brought forth to contradict this, not for lack of trying.
link to salon.com
link to blogs.mcclatchydc.com
OK I'm fully done with Obama. Either he continues to make obvious lies because he is in a political bubble largely of right wing Zionist persuasion (and thus incomprehensibly incompetent), or he willfully makes obvious lies to please such people. Either way, eff him... the lying liar, discrediting an already distrusted US, possibly taking us into the final war which would break the US.
WJ- this is why i love MW. reality revealed by people, with links to back it up.
as for myself, i lived in tel aviv, then the west bank. before going there, i always thought "the wall is in the wrong place, and horrid policies made it a reasonable *at the moment* tactic to protect civilians; but still in the wrong place, and policy changes could have prevented any excuse/need for it".
in reality, it is a farce. i even had a (palestinian) friend from the west bank float the idea of sneaking in to meet me and play pool at my local bar in tel aviv. it was gonna be a great joke, where the next day, i'd tell my israeli friends they played pool with an "illegal" palestinian the night before. when a few workers got shot the day after, i said i didn't want him to take any such risk. his risk would have been a jail stint, at worst, given the way he would enter.
but in reality, the numbers of illegal workers is huge.
a few times, when i would take the bus from damascus gate (occupied east jerusalem, old city; palestinian bus) into bethlehem, there would *invariably* be "illegals" on my bus. sometimes we would get stopped going from "israel proper" into the west bank, and the IDF/border police would check the palestinians who were *leaving* "israel proper" for papers. any illegal workers, who lacked proper papers for having BEEN in israel, would be hauled off the bus. and it was always a few if they checked us. they got some slap on the wrist and a night in jail perhaps... or who knows what, if the authorities felt like screwing them.
these illegal workers/visitors who choose to take the bus *back* were either tired, saving money, or too broke to get back *into* the OPT late at night in a taxi or civilian car (taxis or civilian cars almost never got checked *leaving* israel, and in fact, you can easily drive *into* israel from the OPT in various places, with no problems... with the right color plates...).
in truth, many israeli colored plates exist in the west bank, especially along the green line, as people have relatives inside israel, ties to east jerusalem, etc. if you have an israeli colored plate you can drive through certain checkpoints, and usually just have to smile and wave as you speed by (literally, at 20 MPH). this is a normal occurrence because you have to understand that *thousands* of settlers [with israeli plates] are constantly going to/from their settlements.... their work and center of life is generally within "israel proper". further, many of the settlements deep within the OPT are accessed using roads that are shared 24/7 with palestinians anyways. on top of this, you have to note that any palestinians who are either israeli nationals or just "jerusalemites" often have family and business ties in the OPT (west bank), and they also have "israeli plates". these people are also going into and out of the OPT with frequency. when they go back what do you think happens? at certain checkpoints they will look at the IDs of everyone in the car (only if the passengers are not *WHITE* at checkpoints settlers use). at some little checkpoints you get waved through almost regardless.
so what am i saying?
the green line is already erased (of course), but it is not just moved....
there is NO LINE for all intents and purposes, especially if you want to take the littlest bit of trouble. literally, you can grab a taxi in bethlehem with israeli plates (and they are at the ready), and "sneak" yourself in if you want.
i might have rambled, but the bottom line is, the sh*t is absurd.
i second roha. the heavyweights on MW have so much to reveal, but for us to learn, it needs to be trotted out. simpleminded zionists are just a foil, but they serve as an impetus to bring out the facts, that many of us never knew.
each deep thread serves as a digital database to the injustice, irrationality, and outright lies inherent in most all zionist "arguments", and as a treasure trove of information. plus thousands read these threads.... and i assume this thread floored many americans (and quite a few american christians).
Very true. He allowed the false Zionist framing of it, which is so absurd. Zionism came to the region and ripped it up. And their victim is the "other" regardless of religion. It's no Holy war, it's the pure abuse of power to form an ethnoreligious expansionist state on land largely populated by others.
And given right wing Zionist pressure on US policy.... we are all Palestinians now.
Zionism may have to utterly and ultimately fail, for there to ever be justice or peace on this front. In fact, given the strain of Zionism that crystalized out, it is clear peace and justice will only come with a collapse of Israel as it is currently formulated. I see a long bloody road ahead, unless there is some unimaginable transformation of the Israeli mindset. Seems tough to come by, especially as nutter Zios can easily blunt any transformation with a little violence and assassination...
Actual quote, also transcribed above-
Bob Simon: And it was a reason to call the president of-- chairman of CBS News?
He did not call Obama a German, but I can see how you heard that bit incorrectly. He was questioning why Oren called CBS about the (yet to air) story.
Even when we get doses of truth in the MSM, we get STARK and VERY loaded hasbara lies. Truth mixed with various lies? Bad as a gdamn lie, or even worse, as it makes most people buy the lie.
The main segment quickly comes with the following, as a voice over at 4:40 (meaning 60 minutes gives it as an authoritative statement of "fact")-
Israel built the wall over the last 10 years, which completely separates Israel from the Occupied West Bank. The wall was built to stop Palestinian terrorists from getting into Israel, and it's worked. Terrorism has gone down 90%.
Where do I begin?
(1) It does not separate "Israel" from the Occupied West Bank.... it annexes a significant portion of the Occupied West Bank, including Ariel, thus bisecting the West Bank, stealing land, stealing resources, and making (what is left of) the West Bank a disjointed nonviable piece of land.
link to ochaopt.org
(2) It does not even "completely" separate anything from anything; thousands of settlers are on the "wrong" side of the wall, thousands of Palestinians are on the "wrong" side of the wall, and the wall is not even completed. The wall is breached daily by hundreds of Palestinians who illegally enter Israel proper to work (without permits, many breaching the wall on foot, or by entering in vehicles even).
link to thenational.ae
link to btselem.org
link to youtube.com
(see minute 10:00 for the murder of one such illegal worker, by an intoxicated border official)
(3) KEY POINT The wall has not impacted terrorism in any significant way. Terrorism was abandoned by the West Bank Palestinians themselves, as they were not making any progress, and eventually the PA itself also policed the West Bank to entirely dismantle any remnants still participating in terrorism. To say the wall reduced terrorism is a loaded lie that serves Israeli hasbara in MANY ways. This myth makes people think the Palestinians are attempting terrorism against Israel from the West Bank, but only the wall stops them... utter BS. Fatah has worked with Israel HAND-IN-GLOVE for years, and there is effectively no support for terrorism in the West Bank, let alone terrorists organizing attacks. A few isolated incidents do not negate this. Palestinians and Israeli settlers share many roads, 24/7, and even do business transactions on the roads.
(4) Though ostensibly built to "stop Palestinian terrorists from getting into Israel" this is *simply* the rationale given to the world, and much of the Israeli public. 60 minutes should state that "Israel *claims* the wall was built to stop Palestinian terrorists from getting into Israel", that would be journalistically correct, and a better journalist would openly question the truth of this claim. The wall was actually a transparent land grab, and was meant to not only annex land, but it was meant to create a worst case "de facto" border at some future date. This "de facto" border itself is further meant to render the West Bank a nonviable entity, thus the path of the wall itself has even graver implications should it be unilaterally pushed at some future time. The path of the wall is essentially the prescription for perpetual denial of a Palestinian state, and therefore, an endless perpetuation of the conflict itself (under which Israel can likely continue its expansion and ethnic cleansing agenda).
I'm pissed, especially about (3). Most idiotic Israeli friends and family I have do not even understand (3). Israelis, who live a mile away from the OPT and serve in the IDF (even people I know from Ariel!), continue to think the WALL reduced terrorism. WTF.
Zionism is built on lies, and the lies go so deep almost nobody can escape them all... most Israelis utterly disconnected from reality itself.
seeing the clips i wanted to remind people that the US an other countries are *following* israel down the democraticy fascistic police state path...
link to youtube.com
new from quebec: link to theglobeandmail.com
i think *some* anarchists and black block type people who move towards violence or property damage likely hurt us (none such types in palestine though). but the coming years are going to determine not only israel's trajectory, but our fate. make sure you get out in the streets with occupy and other movements which will only grow in the coming years. keystrokes are not going to win, and we want the widest, broadest support possible when mass demos go down.
vote with your feet, and editorialize in the local papers. it's going to be a long struggle, and don't let the movements fade or tire. our common enemy is fascistic tendencies in all groups and nations, and the struggle is continual. the abuse of concentrated power. war profiteering. corporate control of governments. racism. etc.
thanks Bill in Maryland. love the clips, but if you ever make more/edit, i was hoping to see the recent rifle butt to the bicyclist's face.
and an older clip that always shocks is *rabin's* break the bones policy
link to youtube.com
but thanks, this is no criticism, love it (how did you make it BTW?)
i think there are some limited instances where iran exports terrorism. they clearly export means for asymmetrical response to US/israeli aggression.
but the sick thing is that such comments are meaningless and shameless when you look at both US and israeli actions.... we have both performed terrorist acts and exported so much terrorism, iran looks like a saint in comparison. hell, iran's limited and often indirect support for terrorism is always a response to terror and injustice as well, if we want to contextualize it (and it is debatable how much is "terrorism", as most is clearly sanctioned resistance).
and that is just looking at terrorism; illegal wars of aggression killing millions are the truly monstrous crimes, which the US and israel have to answer for. and we had a role in the iraqi aggression on iran as well (hundreds of thousands dead). further, perhaps right wing zionists had an even larger role in ME history than is already clear...
link to counterpunch.org
israel and zionism require and inversion of reality, and the world is fully realizing how insane we are. it seems inevitable israel will crash in a racist fascist soup, the question is if we follow them down, or shake them off. they also want to pull europe into their bloody and racist narrative, and seem intent on making muslims the new jews of europe. the only way israel can "excuse" or continue with their ethnic cleansing and apartheid is if the "west" catches their anti-arab islamophobia BS (and we have). and given extremist zionist history, they will likely stop at nothing in achieving their ends. lavon affair, USS liberty... can you not expect big things to come, or big things they may have had a hand in and "gotten away" with?
link to willyloman.wordpress.com
We will see. All I know is I lost faith in AJE once I saw their bias on the Arab spring depending on country. I never bought anonymous, which is easily hijacked if not US built. I have come to question wikileaks (where are the IL cables?...). And RT might just be letting this one run due to viewership interest, or else RT might be heading south itself.
i didn't want to go WWII poem, but it was so fitting. further, we should note that they have already gone past "the muslims". and given the rather muted (even when hyped) threat of islamic terrorism.... we all should note that the *ultimate* target was *never* really muslims.
the target is all of us.
and people espousing the ideas seen on MW will be targets in the coming years, if not already surveilled. antiwar.com was investigated:
link to chroniclesmagazine.org
link to original.antiwar.com
link to scribd.com
pretty sure there is a file on you and other MW'ers.... unlikely i pass muster, but who knows how information hungry the powers that be are. they surely have retains of all our digital stuff for retrospective retrieval.
you are too predictable. a partisan hack with no mastery of the facts. minimize anything from the israel-zionist-jewish side, and mischaracterize anything from the "other" side. i second irevolt's comment. read up:
link to boston.com
i support civil liberties and the right to free speech, even "extremist" speech. but if we ever crack down on the hacks who foment islamophobia and illegal US wars of aggression? i might feel some sort of had it coming... hell, they were the ones who shredded the civil liberties in the first place.
First they came for the muslims,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a muslim.
Then they came for the miltias,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't in a militia.
Then they came for the libertarians,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a libertarian.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.
(right wing zionists are helping script a fate for the US which looks sickly similar to the path germany went down, but muslims are the object of their affection. of course, eventually the truth may out, and fascistic xenophobes schooled in racist bigotry might shift from the muslim ~2% to the jewish ~2%... and aside from trumped up terrorism fears, they would find *actual* zionist crimes on US soil, and actual malevolent forces at play within the ~2% [AIPAC spying, extensive israeli spy networks, bribery, blackmail, jewish organized crime and drug trafficking, organized media lies, neocons with zionist affiliation, false-flags, etc. etc.]. zionists are sowing the wind, but they might reap the whirlwind if we ever finish with the muslims)
I'd be interested in if the flights are refunded or they eat the cost.... I considered doing such a program. I also had a worst case ploy to try to stay if they wanted to deport me- give me my citizenship, I want to make Aliyah!
I also wanted to be like- the (BS) reason I am making Aliyah is because though antisemitism is a non-issue in America currently, it is possible Israel's actions could cause an explosion of antisemitism in the coming years.
Does anyone know how they treat people who legally can make Aliyah, yet are pro-Palestinian rights/anti-occupation (or G-d forbid, support the refugee right of return)? Would they let me get my citizenship?
it is all very odd, because i think obama has done everything israel could ask for, short of bombing iran (but that was not really feasible, absent some "incident"; and he *still* may do iran in time).
so what is the silver lining to these likudnik hawks throwing away millions to dethrone obama? when he wins in 2012 he can say FU!! to the israeli right wingers. they threw all they could at him, despite his relative fealty, and they failed. 2013 will then be time to call for a settlement freeze with some high tension strings attached. let the congress attack obama for his sane foreign policy, just as the US is waking up to israeli insanity....
we also kill two birds with one stone as these war-monger israel-firsters pour money against obama: their flagrant attempts to influence US policy for israel shows us (1) the problem with money in US politics as it exists today in general and (2) that israel-firsters are a serious political force and their influence needs to be monitored and countered.
in response to these "delist MEK" shirt idiots, we need a counter t-shirt based on US law:
LIST israel [and some small text on how israel is a proven sponsor of terrorism and commits state terrorism, hence must be listed...]
those grinning idiots taking money to advocate for terrorist groups are repulsive...
yeah i met her at occupy AIPAC.... also heard her do an interview on the kevin barrett show. edgy and a little out of her element, but brave to make her statements in a futile run at office.
she isn't going to get much traction and she seems a little off on a few things, therefore she is a real mixed bag, with some real drawbacks.
1) WTF is she talking about with the 66,000 dead?
2) why the incendiary language when the content of her positions are "fringe" enough?
3) she does not understand the larger picture outside of AIPAC/neocons, so her oversimplification of US/ME politics can be refuted and perhaps even painted as "antisemitic" by the less scrupulous.
she is a little "jew" centric, rather than power elite focused... in fact, on the local level one thing that set her off and she protested was a bar mitzvah being held in some state venue (like the local town hall). she was ostensibly mad at the lack of separation of church and state, but do you think the fact that it was a *jewish* function played a role? (yes, 99% sure on my end). in the end she could even be a real liability, but i think after this run she fades into obscurity.
but she does set an example, and we need more informed regular citizens to make runs at office, to get the message out, even if electoral success is still often beyond reach.
Yes, and threaten them with war when sanctions dont work. If the zios think something is good for the mainly innocent goose (iran) it should very good for the guilty gander.... israel.
Israel-firster.
Oddly many Israelis resent the US and think we "have too much control over them" and "tell them what to do".
When I get this line from Israelis I want to puke. The victimhood status never goes away, and they project their own influence on us, onto them! It's infuriating, and you are almost like..... Where do I begin with this BS upside-downism?
I'm usually like... you know of people lobbying the Knesset for US interests? And you do know you can just say no to our aid and political cover, and do whatever the fuck you want, which you do anyways.... so why don't you stop complaining about free billions, political cover, tax-free American Zionist donations, and possibly some trillion dollar wars we fight for your interests (or even express "gratitude"!).
dan,
thanks, i like the way you put it with those pointed questions. i always used to refer to past US actions, indicating we always mess about in horrible ways, and now we just often do it with a zionist hue.
but i do think there is an issue about "israel-firsters" now setting the bloody agenda for the most part, when it comes to the middle east.... the ideologues are so blindly attached to israel, they ignore the immense harm they do (or *could* do) to the US.
more specifically, their agenda (let's say the neocons) could very well result in a collapse of the US dollar, and hasten and deepen the decline of the US. this could be utterly disastrous. (1) it is bad for all americans, and any country we lash out at to distract ourselves with during the fall (2) though i blame the neocons and an unrepresentative "pro-israel" lobby, many will blame "the jews" (if we ever get over hating "muslims", which is a big "if"; but some are already over hating the muslims, and most never did)
i just don't like the look of the coming few years.
dan,
i believe you think people focus too much on right wing zionist interests as a driving force for too much of US foreign policy. i agree there are many other forces at play, but what other interests do you think carry the most weight? big oil, MIC, and other profiteers? sincerely interested, and i think there are other major players.
i tend to think there is often a confluence of interests at times, which gives policy the needed momentum. but i can't get away from the neocon influence in everything post-9/11. and though right-wing geo-strategy plays a role (which i think is sloppy "intellectual" cover for policies many others want) and the MIC play a role, i can't help but see zionist ideologues as a key, if not required driver.
also the talking heads and many media outlets almost reading from a script was sickening.... are a few zionist ideologues key in driving the media campaign, or were they just xenophobes jumping on the war train? i am not talking a giant media conspiracy, just a number of key players setting the agenda, and the rest going along for the ride. but it still was very jarring, with transparently BS "reporting" and fear-mongering rampant, especially running up to the iraq war. what pushed our media in this direction- an interest in viewers from advertising profits, or were ideologues/others throwing their weight around?
the same thing goes for the counter-factual reporting on iran in the NYTimes and on NPR etc. the major outlets have an agenda, and any rational reporter worth his salt should be noting the NIEs and the fact that an attack on iran likely has little/no benefit, and is most likely gravely counterproductive (how does IAEA kicked out, and a greatly radicalized iran sound?). why are these media outlets, especially public radio, out to lunch?
interested in your high level take on the power players, as i do respect your commentary.
giladg-
your bigoted islamophobic rantings are fairly embarrassing. go post at the jpost or some rag.... we really are not fans of bigots, judeosupremacists, myth-peddlers, and other such regressive types.
please tell me your thoughts on the nakba gilad.... do you think that the refugees are responsible for their plight? do you think "islam" and arab resistance justified the dispossession of so many? why did they leave anyways, was it mainly just so the invading arab armies could drive the jews into the sea?
doooooo tell. spare me none of your twisted opinions. ;)
one thing that blows my mind about some of the more "israel centric" jews i know-
they think the US is biased against israel. honestly. they think the media is anti-israel, and the US is hostile to israel.
many people in the jewish community, and many zionists in general, are therefore certifiably insane. this is now a cult for many jews. they are deluded and no longer have any rational conception of the world as it is. they have utterly lost their grip on reality, by internalizing incessant propaganda, patently false "logic", and religious BS. it is like a cult, even for many jews who are secular.
g-d help the bat-shit-crazy ones if the US starts to act *remotely* fair towards this conflict. these people are already unstable.... imagine if the world said the truth and did something tangible about the palestinian plight.
imagine (and i am dreaming here) if the US led sanctions against israel for their colonization and occupation, much as the US has led sanctions against iran for a NONEXISTENT crime (due to jewish pressure! the hypocrisy and inability to take even a small dose of their "own medicine" astounds me).
agreed- she made me sick. i loved (hated?) when she said some BS and the palestinian to her left had to place her head in her hands upon hearing the tired hasbara. this program was *groundbreaking* for the MSM approach to I/P. and i really liked the retired general from israel. it is great when a somewhat fair-minded israeli can smack down jewish americans drunk on ziocaine.
it's priceless when hasbara spouting american jews who often haven't been to israel, let alone the OPT, get put in their place by someone they really cannot dispute. idiot israel-firsters, who don't know the first thing about israel- or what is best for israel.
in '48 Egypt offered very little to DEFEND against the absurd partition foisted on the region from european votes, with a ludicrous UN partition plan which zionists had no intention to implement. more importantly, the preemptive armed attacks by zionist forces, which were creating (intentionally) a steady stream of refugees, was a main reason egypt entered the war.... and the main reason there was an israeli "war of independence" in the first place was because zionists *chose* to have one. they could have had no war, worked for a secular parliamentary democracy, or slowly moved to implement the partition plan *as envisioned* with careful and methodical movement on the ground.
in 1967, many clear-headed analysts contend that egypt had *no intention to attack*. even israelis have stated that opening the front with egypt was preventive and a *war of choice*.
after israel stole the sinai, and was colonizing it, egypt had every right to attack israel, and they did. and that is how they eventually got it back, through the eventual peace agreement which followed that show of force. maybe israel only understands force....
and for those of you in gaza, my thoughts are with you. my condolences to all the victims, and the families of the victims. the world is with you, despite the official silence. the people are with you.
the last year has a clear message to all of us who follow the middle east. israel wants a wider war, and specifically, wants to transition to a war with iran.
the various terrorist attacks on iran, which is a bit of a "black box" closed system, have all seriously *risked* the precipitation of a wider war. the attacks on gaza have likely been meant to instigate some missiles into populated areas, though they never came. but such could have been parlayed into an escalation, and a fierce condemnation of iran, and its support for hamas and gazan militants.
although none of the "pokes" instigated a larger war, they ALL risked devolution to such. this means means they *want* such a war, and this means, in time, they will likely have it.
with political capital being spent, and the world media increasingly strident in its analysis of israeli policies, we are near a breaking point. israel, without an iran war, is wide open to international condemnation, like we have not seen before. it seems this war will come, within the next year. if obama has [behind closed doors] insisted he does not want the war, it will either come before the election [when they can force it upon him], or after his displacement. and if israel throws in all the chips in a concerted effort to replace him, and *cannot* replace obama, we may avert this war. i will not vote for obama, but if bibi and the lackeys come out against him, the political posturing may be revealed... unequivocally. the wedge will have been driven, and israel will NOW BE a partisan issue [if only at the presidential level].
The direction we go on Iran may likely dictate the fate of the US in many ways. Iraq may have been an aberation.... if we get drawn in against Iran the US is effed, and likewise, the tragectory of humanity itself may be gravely retarded. Clash of civilizations anyone? Perpetual war made truly perpetual?
fredblogs-
you have it all wrong. israel chooses to put the soldiers there, on occupied land (or illegally annexed land- in this case).
they can just go away. they should not be there in the first place. and then they will not be at risk of getting hit with a rock. very simple concept.
but if they must be there, due to israel's insane illegal policies, they really do not need to fire rubber coated steel bullets at people. they can sit in their jeep or some shit.
Less than 1%. I took a very unscientific poll over a few months.... found two Jewish Israelis with a view towards justice in my everyday experiences.
Of course I am excluding the Israelis I met in the West Bank, through ICAHD, or at a small cafe in Jaffa explicitly built for shared use and peace seekers. The amazingly sad thing is that there are literally LESS THAN 2,000 Jewish Israelis in Israel who are *active*, and see the conflict with clarity.
I mean this... we are talking about a few hundred people out of millions. Of course, there is likely a small minority of Jewish Israelis who are explicitly apolitical, but if pressed may understand the situation and seek justice in the theoretical sense, but they are silent because they have no hope, and because they would be harshly condemned and marginalized by their own family and society if they voiced their opinions.
It is stunningly hopeless on the Jewish Israeli front. Nothing but racist groupthink or at best disengagement/silence. In fact, racist comments are par for the course, and receive no condemnation. You get the harsh reactions when you voice the truth and understanding.... so nobody does.
an attack on iran, from israel and/or the US, is obviously a disaster and counterproductive, therefore i have often *hoped* it was a distraction. but might counterproductive be exactly what israel needs? might radicalization and regional turmoil be what the zionist right *wants*, and gains power from?
i think we have to assess- what will the right wing powers in israel will do, if there is NOT an iran war? they cannot cry wolf endlessly to distract, and if there is not a war, there will have to be an agreement between iran and the western powers eventually....
where will this leave israel? israel has *destroyed* the 2SS, and given their right wing slide, peace is politically impossible out of israel, short of a civil war. even that seems unlikely, as no coalition would even be able to attempt a viable 2SS, and a just 1SS is also untenable given zionism.
where does this leave us? i think (likud/right) zionism has been intent on kicking the can down the road, grabbing territory, and driving the *clash of civilization* as the main cover on the global scene.
zionism in its dominant political form is highly racist and expansionist. zionism itself and the idea of a jewish state is unable to defend the injustice it was built upon, and the injustice it continues to add to, *unless* there are major ethnic and religious divides. in its ultimate expression this requires a deep divide between the west and the arab/muslim world.
israelis are obsessed with europe's (manufactured) "muslim" problem. they are almost proud in seeing political islamophobia in europe, and act like "i told you so" as if this justifies their thick collective racism/bigotry. in the USA it is very clear that right wing zionists and neocons are key forces driving both islamophobia and the disastrous "war on terror" that in fact creates more radicalism and sincere terrorists than it "liquidates".
where does this end? the interconnected world, sharing ideas, and seeking understanding and peace are threatening. the iran conflict seems inevitable should the zionists want it, and i think they have no other "choice", as stability is their biggest threat.
fortunately, the iran disaster might be the final scene in this horrible saga. no idea how it could play out post-iran, but if truth and knowledge prevail, israel *should* loose its support from the west and much of world jewry. perhaps israelis will finally look at themselves and ask what they have done. on the other hand, if the xenophobic and fascistic elements prevail, especially in the US, we may have an orwell/huxley distopia. regardless, the next few years will be intense.
you are so concerned about the "BIGS". they profit, yes. they lobby, yes. but you have to see where the media magnets *push* things. you have to watch how AIPAC *pushes* the agenda and drafts legislation to back us into war. these key players are not the BIGS, even if the BIGS sometimes profit from their agenda. they are not representative of american jewry, but they are very influential. they are right wing zionists and warmongers who have a strong affinity for israel (and the belligerent israeli right- not looking for peace in the middle east).
krauss.....
ironically, you are exactly the type of "gatekeeper" types blankfort is wary of. perhaps that's why you jump all over him.
perhaps you should be banned for fracturing the movement, leveling utterly absurd charges of antisemitism, and trying to exclude sincere observations from the "acceptable" discourse. but actually i support your right to be here and make your reactionary comments on this topic.... i just hope most in the MW audience do not buy your faulty analysis and your calls for censorship, when such a call is entirely unwarranted and actually counterproductive.
if you intend to attack a few people for language and ideas, simply because you fear how such will *reflect* on the "movement" you are wasting time on a fools errand. in fact, you are doing exactly that which the zionist right tries to do with ALL of us (you know... we are all antisemites, self-hating jews, terrorist sympathizers, terrorists and israel haters... even those within the movement are screaming about such bad actors, like krauss pointing out jeffrey blankfort! and go get that atzmon guy!).
it is a slippery slope when you start engaging in "tactical" censorship of people who you know are not antisemitic, but you think might "sound" antisemitic, or you disagree with their analysis/framing. no matter how much policing you think you can do, no matter how nuanced you try to keep your speech, they are going to keep calling us (or some of us) antisemitic. don't play their GAME. don't do their dirty work for them. just note that our goal of justice is the same. if people with such harsh words as blankfort or atzmon were *leaders* of the movement, there would be issues with that. they are intellectual contributors, and you should just take in their ideas, debate their ideas, or ignore them. keep to banning *actual* antisemites, or even just ignore them... there are enough of them around.
someone said- if the truth is antisemitic, your need another definition for antisemitism.
maybe your definition needs some tweaking.
atzmon joked that antisemites used to be those who hated jews, and now antisemites are those who the jews hate.
there is frequently a kernel of truth as the "intellectual" basis for actual antisemitism (or any bigotry). we should not deny this kernel of truth, IF it exists, as if this will make the antisemitism go away. we should inspect this kernel of truth rationally, should it exist. sometimes we may need to ameliorate this kernel of truth (from within and/or without), if this is a problematic trend/reality.
i have said-
when some of the worst anti-semitic screeds are seemingly supported by facts, we have a problem. anti-semites like to talk of ZOGs (zionist occupied governments). we don’t use the term here, but we basically say as much. congress is “israeli occupied territory”. AIPAC dictates legislation. AIPAC targets and unseats someone deemed not “pro-israel” enough. hell….. tom friedman can state that AIPAC and the pro-israel lobby bought the standing ovations for netanyahu.
this is an issue we must deal with, as americans, jewish and non-jewish. ignoring it does not help. getting upset at someone's language and ostracizing them also seem very counterproductive.
it seems many people were very racist at that time. leading zionists included.
luckily, most politicians do not openly state such racist things (though some still think along those lines). and if a politician *had* such racist quotes in their past, they would generally be unelectable...
sadly, israel is one of the notable exceptions to this post-WW2 "rule". most PMs of israel seemingly have to prove their ethnocentric racist nature through both word and brutal deed, *before* they become viable for the PM position.
begin and sharon are two very stark recent examples.... and lieberman, a possible future PM of israel. but in deed, *all* qualify as irredeemable racists given the policies they presided over.
link to en.wikiquote.org
"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
"Minorities are the biggest problem in the world"
and if you go further back or dig deep, the quotes get realllllly bizarre.
how would comments to a school newspaper represent any effective "dialogue"? BTW i am very sure she dialogues ALL THE TIME, just not after an action for which she may face charges and needs to control the message coming from her side.
also your inane comment?? seems to avoid DIALOGUE about the topic, and skirts the issue with insulting generalizations when you have no supporting facts or knowledge about the person or her actions, outside of a fleeting denial of comment to a school rag.
the action stands for itself. comments which are often selectively quoted and even misquoted for a school newspaper? why would she bother with such a distraction, which carries literal risk to herself and her message.
i was just selectively quoted, and effectively misquoted, in the jpost today.
grow up and start actually "dialoguing" or better yet.... stop the hasbara, diversion, and the support for injustice.
i just posted this from yesterday
link to youtube.com
a brave israeli who attended occupy AIPAC, and spoke very eloquently at various points in the weekend. consider making this a MW story if you think it is worthy (i think the merit as an article is borderline, but he was the only israeli i knew of attending occupy AIPAC, and israelis and american jews/non-jews could benefit from hearing such views from an israeli)
good job. i wish there were more brave jews standing up to the AIPAC BS. last year netanyahu was interrupted multiple times... let's hope for a repeat.
i respect his decision on the rules, and think they all have merit. he clearly can and should make the rules. along the years, his decisions have made the site what it is today- an unparalleled success. and i greatly respect phil.
but do i respect his decision to allow *selective* and *retrospective* bannings of long-time commenters and contributors? hell no.
let's not confuse respect for someone with respecting *all* their decisions.
why not simply make the new rules, and give the offenders a chance to adapt?
i talked about 9/11 all the time. i do not anymore, and respect that rule. why am i here but blankfort, a longtime contributor and commenter, was banned for a few nuanced threads?
this column is "nice" in that concerns were given lip service. it was the least phil could do, literally, were he to do *something*. was anything changed? not a thing.... we got roughly the explanation we could expect, and the issue still stands.
bring them all back and kick them out if they make one wrong move. or just bring blankfort back and others who simply broke the rules a few times, *before* said rules even existed. anything less i consider a poor decision, and that's just my honest opinion. else we might be waving goodbye to the great taxi, and others.
Could not have said it better (or half as well). Please consider an un-banning, and one strike you are out from there out.
Many deserve the chance to conform to new ground rules, witty included. Dedicated people from all sides were summarily dismissed with what I feel was little to no warning.
I 100% understand the reasons for avoiding such talk. It should be noted that what Blankfort discussed focused on *Zionist* actions and ideology, and was nuanced. But I still see the rationale for banning such discourse.
Not to pry into the specific details, but it really matters to me...
Was Jeffrey Blankfort warned that such talk was something the website no longer would tolerate, and he *refused* to accommodate?
Was Jeffrey Blankfort banned, before he even had been given notice of the new policy, and an explicit chance to avoid such discussion?
if they do though.... they will be past the point of no return. cast lead was bad enough. the world is fed up. even though we don't expect israel and zionism to suddenly retreat to a viable 2SS they have the *option* at the moment. but if they get their war on iran, all bets are off, and it seems like they have a death wish.
granted, i don't want to see this bloody ending, because they also have nukes, and ridiculous sway in the US.
but maybe an exodus of sane israelis and an economic collapse from within? maybe israel can fall like the USSR, if enough israelis with russian, polish, and US passports leave? and more just jump ship on a visa? enough conventional missiles from gaza, s lebanon, and iran might be able to usher in a collapse...
after an iran attack, i sincerely contend israel has *fully* lost its right to exist, and proved itself entirely unable to rehabilitate itself (was it ever "habilitated"?). in that case, let's just hope the ending is as quick and as painless as possible, for all parties involved.
i hope he's wrong, cause this has been my worst fear for over a year. but let's be honest, much of corporate media has a zionist tilt, and perhaps they are confident they can ensure good perception management? ...seems too risky though.
talk about an un-holy alliance... republican atheists who pretend to be christians to get elected, with israeli zionists who are also atheists but are all about their "jewishness". mad men run the world, and even the actors they allow on the stage are vile transparent ethnocentric power hungry liars. (no jab at atheists intended; i am one, and would love a self-proclaimed agnostic/atheist to be POTUS)
phil, don't tell me this is "hard to argue with" even though i agree. i know it's possible..... but if it is at all likely, i should be tracking down a good job in south america rather than wasting my time at occupy AIPAC. oh screw it, i'll go down with this stinking american ship.
link to occupyaipac.org
i've tried it on my jewish family, but included the non-jewish spouses and jews who "left the faith".
nobody was thinking what i knew to be the 100% truth (i was writing from palestine). i got vitriol or silence... deafening unexpected silence from many. i think the silence was worse than the expected zionist BS.
so for those that do not get the nice reaction rebecca vilkomerson did?
i suggest you remain composed, and acknowledge you are often just "planting seeds". for some it may grow inside, and nag at them. if they start to look into your perspective on their own, then they can be truly convinced.
but don't stop planting seeds. i believe some who offered me only silence have views similar to mine, but want to avoid the topic. our courage can cause them to gain courage. and i know i've impacted some, though less than i may have hoped.
in time, the right wing zionists in the jewish community who wish to control acceptable debate will be the ones voicing the unacceptable opinions... that, or the jewish community itself has some blowback coming, and part of it will be grassroots anti-semitism.
The spineless and propagandistic Tom Friedman is infinitely more honest than you are regarding AIPAC... Or you are a naive dolt. Sorry to be so blunt, but the overt and suppressed (but documented) history of AIPAC is CLEAR. Read up on it... or go to some talks at occupy AIPAC, in between doses of biased boiler plate AIPAC BS. Good luck.
If you think DC goes to AIPAC cause they love AIPAC and their strong armed tactics to bias US policy, you are really unschooled in the way politics works, but especially AIPAC politics.
great decision. but i've always been troubled by the US laws against boycott, *specifically* concerning israel-
link to bis.doc.gov
i am not that well versed in the law.... but does anyone know if BDS might in time run into these existing US laws? on my reading it seems like anyone trying to boycott israel, especially corporations/businesses, are exposed to some SERIOUS ramifications on the federal level.
Iran already "does the same". And even if Israel did this, would she retain her nukes? She either would retain her nukes, or lie and say she gave them up. This proposal is misleading bunk, and lies about Iran's current position.
For some dual loyalty is being TOO generous.... When they choose to harm American interests to support Israel (where they don't even effing live), it is ONE loyalty.
And for those who spy or illegally tinker with electoral politics, it is outright treason.
tombishop-
i would propose that the settlers are removed, over ~5 years. perhaps *some* settlers can remain, if the PA/PLO agreed to land swaps to get a corridor to gaza. but the basis would be 1967, with perhaps internationalization of the old city, or just letting the "jewish state" control it (minus the mosque). israel would have to make offers for swaps the PLO *agreed* to, to make any real alterations of from the green line.
as the settlers were evacuated, some/all of the emptied settlements would then represent a *portion* of the compensation offered to palestinian refugees (those living in camps under occupation, or coming from other countries such as lebanon).
most of the settlers moved into the west bank in a period of a few years. they can be moved within israel's recognized borders in the same period of time, or even much quicker.
most (>90%) of the settlers are non-ideological. those who refused to move could be left there at first. they could be told the palestinian state could deal with them however the palestinian state wanted to, likely imprisoning them for land theft, or deporting them to israel. some might die massada style when the PA went to arrest them (or more likely, when the IDF attempted to remove them).
if you think it is politically or functionally impossible to remove the settlers.... answer me THIS:
is getting the racist, militant, and deeply zionist state of israel to grant people in ramallah and gaza city citizenship and equal rights MORE feasible?
really, i have no illusions about how difficult what i propose is (the last few decades are a testament to this... but the international community, and more jews abroad are now realizing israel's game, and tides are shifting).
but i also am not delusional when considering the difficulties in the path to a *just* single state solution. in fact, a *just* single state solution seems almost impossible given the political forces and ideologies at play, while the fairly just 2SS seems very hard, but not impossible to attain.
i am open to a well-reasoned path by which israel comes to accept a *just* single state resolution, and whereby the international community actually pressures israel to adopt this. i just have not heard it. if the "single state" is the only option we have, i see a repeat of 1948 as the more likely option.... which is why so many on the israeli right have worked so hard for years to DESTROY the 2SS.
Lose (thanks, I suppose.... did you sincerely not know what I had intended, or is that a way to denigrate a comment you dislike? Sincere question.)
I feel like my position that accepting a historic injustice, and a 2SS is fairly unpopular here.... I'll have you note that many Palestinians are flexible on the right of return, in the interest of getting sovereignty and freedom. Among refugees the sentiments vary, but some simply want the injustice recognized and want some attempt made at resolution, even if it is incomplete.
A Palestinian once told me that foreigners sometimes try to be "more Palestinian" than the Palestinians themselves. Or even Palestinians who have made the US their permanent home are more inflexible than those living under occupation. This is not to say some of the most strident and principled voices do not come out of Gaza or the West Bank, but many are sincere in their opinion that they just want a Palestine and to be done with this insane conflict.
I am not saying Israel is offering this at all at the moment (viable 2SS), but the posturing of Palestinians and those advocating for Palestinian rights does have an impact on the Israeli electorate and the possible flow in the coming years. I'd like to see peace before I die, even if it comes with a serious dose of injustice... but that is just my opinion and that of a number of Palestinians I know. Seems easy for me to say, as they are not my rights I so freely bargain away, but I am sincere in my views and literally am looking out for Palestinian interests (I really do not care if there was no Jewish state.... I think it was an absurd mistake and is a liability for Jews in Israel and worldwide).
Also, it seems untenable to be advocating that those ethnically cleansed be flexible on their "inalienable rights".... but how am I denying them a right, when Israel has denied such a right since 1948, and cannot be expected to relent on this issue in the foreseeable future, nor compelled to relent? I don't see the world obsessed with getting refugees back into the countries and conflict zones they came from in so many other places... I see them getting resettled.
I really think the Zionists like the political orthodoxy on the "right of return".... because they spin it to both Israelis and the world as an excuse to continue their creeping expansion and further ethnic cleansing.
And the hypothetical big war where many Arabs/others see Israel being defeated, in the coming years? If it came to pass, Israel, with nukes, would make the improbable Arab victory a pyrrhic victory if there EVER was one.
I do wonder if there are some shills on the Jewish far left..... They dreamily think that the end of the 2SS is a blessing, while in reality they are ceding a win for the Israeli far right- and THEY are the ones with political power.
I think Israel's real fear is a united 2SS front, based on 1967, with some flexibility on what the old city status ends up like (international and shared control like the partition plan?), and some flexibility on how the right of return and refugee compensation is implemented.
I fear idealism and insistence on addressing every injustice, will diminish our international support, and will prevent reconciliation with Israelis. We need to compel Israelis to agree with us... and demands we cannot get support on from within Israel, means a dead end. People seem to forget that the end game is consent from the majority of Israelis, even if the pressure comes in the forms of BDS and sanctions. And let's not be deluded on how much pressure we can bring, and what demands nation states will make on Israel.
My thrust is very simply.... as tough as a 2SS seems, almost ALL Zionists will bend to accept a 2SS if the other outcome is a 1SS whereby they loose the Jewish majority state. Even if implementation of the 2SS would take years to implement, they would ALWAYS retreat to the 2SS rather than implement a just 1SS and loose the whole goal of the stupid Zionist project. But of course, they may also have ethnic cleansing planned, or attempt to push population centers off on Jordan and Egypt, and create a new iron wall (supported by Western states who are hit with more "terror" and rising xenophobia).
Us secular minded and non tribal folks in the justice camp are a minority. When we dream of people thinking like us when envisioning the future.... we may walk a path that proves disastrous when the rubber meets the road.
let me also state that there are some exceptions to my personal "rule".... certain people are so despicable, and undeniably war criminals, i do support attempts to *deny* them a dignified platform to speak, if such has been granted. any and all means necessary, to note the disgust.
no university should be hosting the most vile actors. but the intellectual hacks should be given a stage to make a mockery of the truth, after we register our dissent.
chaos- great link
i think people are misinterpreting what they did here, and conflating it with other actions (....green?). i think it is fine to do a walk out, or a "people's mic" statement in the face of such repulsive speech. you make your point, and then leave (in this case, leave while being assaulted). this seems tame, and reasonable.
i do, however, think the speakers should get a chance to speak in the end... which they almost invariably DO.
in fact, the students would have likely walked out after the mic statement, and the assault probably caused more disruption than the planned action would have alone.
however, i think when we try to do dozens of people's mic checks in a row, or people refuse to leave, then we cross a line, and it looks like we are shouting down and censoring free speech. such activities which are intent on *disruption* to the point of *ending* the event are not something i support. mainly because it is not very productive strategically, and we risk our own events/meetings getting harassed to the point where we cannot hold them effectively. they also might even look "good" which is obviously counterproductive.
please note i support the action above, and almost every action i have seen. but perhaps 1-2 times there were actions that i would not support (but that is just my opinion, and people are free to try to shut down a "pro-israel" event, and i will not get all high and mighty and attack their chosen form of protest).
green, i welcome your opinion, but i think you have to realize that tame, short disruptions are a tactic approved by many, especially students.
even if the impact for the "general public" is nothing, the *action* itself is very meaningful and cathartic for those doing it. as so many feel so impotent in the face of the hasbara, such actions can build morale and helps people do something tangible. and if the action comes with a succinct message, it does stand a chance at peeking the interest of a moderate attendee in the crowd... but even if it is simply self-indulgent and has little efficacy in the broader struggle, there is power there (don't we all love watching a good interruption of some war-criminal or racist?.... i think 90% of us do. even if it only makes me "feel good" for a second, it is 100% worth it).
all things to think about in advance of occupy AIPAC.... next WEEK!
good example cliff. i also read more on that episode here link to richardsilverstein.com
(with comment feedback from the pepper-sprayer herself!)
speaking of the USS liberty, i never knew someone as high profile as ralph nader spoke out on it, and the cover-up:
link to youtube.com
for those who like the beat in the background....
it is from this EPIC lupe fiasco song.... giving props to palestine, nonviolence, and calling out israel-
link to youtube.com
basically lupe calls out the manufactured clash of civilization, the war on terror, and our orwellian reality. in one neat little song.
yourstruly- in your profile you state you are a "pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist". i suggest you avoid the term "pro-palestinian", as it implies bias, and you are simply standing up for human rights. perhaps "pro-palestinian rights" or "an advocate for palestinian rights"?
"anti-zionist" is fair game, and i suppose i myself am such... but i do think there were, repressed and suppressed, conceptions of zionism i have no problem with. i know about 2 living (self-professed) zionists who i have no issues with. so i also avoid the "anti-zionist" term but that is not what caught my eye... "pro-palestinian" is.
i think the "pro-israeli" positions are bad for israel. i think those labeled "anti-israel" are usually offering the best advice israel could get. these terms eventually become meaningless ways to frame the debate (and turn the truth on its head). and who crafts these terms? ....zionists and the "pro-israelis" i fear. we should avoid labeling ourselves with their loaded terms... which seem intended to compromise us and imply bias and even false equivalency, when there is none.
link to youtube.com
i made that clip from a chas freeman speech i put on youtube. israel can dictate staffing of national security positions in the USG, most especially when it matters to israel and concerns the middle east.
occupy AIPAC everyone...
link to occupyaipac.org
when some of the worst anti-semitic screeds are seemingly supported by facts, we have a problem. anti-semites like to talk of ZOGs (zionist occupied governments). we don't use the term here, but we basically say as much. congress is "israeli occupied territory". AIPAC dictates legislation. AIPAC targets and unseats someone deemed not "pro-israel" enough. hell..... tom friedman can state that AIPAC and the pro-israel lobby bought the standing ovations for netanyahu.
it's very bad and we are only talking about the transparent and undisputed facts about the nature of the lobby, and the power of the lobby.
i agree with amar- assuming the (nonexistent) choice between an *unbiased* jew and an *unbiased* gentile, the jew is preferable for political reasons. although some will call them a "self-hating" jew, this will not stick so much. most people, jew or gentile, would at least conclude it is unlikely there will be a "pro-palestinian" or "anti-jewish"/"anti-israel" bias, when the reporter is a jew.
obviously we should be above this, and in normal circumstances the preference would be an unbiased person, who preferably is *not* ethnically or religiously tired to EITHER side. not to stoop to their level and play their "game", but we need to be realpolitik and play our hand based on the rules that exist, however unfair.
but hell, i'd happily take a truly unbiased jew OR gentile at the NYTimes... let's see how the latest jewish reporter in jerusalem pans out. not expecting much.
I’m reminded by an old joke.. guilt for (gentile) whites is that they are too ethnocentric… guilt for Jews are that we are not ethnocentric enough!
That joke hits home. And who works so hard to shape our collective consciousness? ... The "storytellers" of our time.
I've also noted that more than 50% of the time I listen to NPR I'm getting regaled with Jewish American stories, holocaust stories, or talk of Iran (essentially brought to us by Jewish Zionists and the "Jewish state" of Israel). I have a connection to the Jewish community, but your average "goy" must be questioning WTF is going on with national PUBLIC radio, obsessed with ~2% of the US population (and very much staffed with the 2%). It's almost shameless, tone-deaf, and totally alienating.
i was hanging in the west bank with some palestinian americans from jersey. they always fly through jordan, then cross over into the OPT.
i was shocked that they had to pay a FEE to get into their homeland.... pay a FEE for the humiliation of being checked by israelis, to get into the effing OPT. it pisses them off.
it is absurd.
i also met a palestinian who is married to a canadian, and now has a canadian passport. once he tried to fly into tel aviv on the canadian passport. because he was arab, they checked him out and found out he was *palestinian*.... because he was palestinian they denied him transit, and shipped him back to canada, knowing full well he would simply fly to amman and then enter through there, at great expense. they also marked his canadian passport so he wouldn't be able to use it on israel again.
also the "wall" is a joke, and he considered sneaking into israel from the west bank and playing pool with me in tel aviv. it is very easy to do, and hundreds do it daily. he got cold feet, and so did i, as i didn't want him to risk getting caught and getting some jail time and a record/fine.
the absurd insulting realities of israeli apartheid. you need to visit to really take in some of them. look forward to more stories from phil's trip.
Those whiners in the second video should just wisen up, and join BDS. If they all join BDS, community "problem" solved, and they help pressure Israel to stop being an ass as well... win-win.
Am I the only one who thinks all under ad detention should now commence with a massive hunger strike? In fact, all political prisoners as well? I would say *all* prisoners, but that could muddy the water, and blunt the press (plus Israel will not budge on those "convicted").
Also dimadok....
That was at the height of the VERY bloody 2nd intifada- with Palestinian civilians dropping like flies. You might want to note that Jews and Israelis go to area A, Palestinian controlled areas, DAILY ("illegally" for the Israelis, under Israeli laws). Look into the AIC cafe in Beit Sahour. Also, Jews visit and even reside all over the West Bank, in area A (I did myself, but only with a Jewish father; but I was always touring around with and meeting "real" Jews).
Also, settlers share roads ALL OVER the West Bank with Palestinians, 24/7. Of course in Hebron the settlers do try to run down Palestinians quite often.... Hmmm...
It is the Zionist in you, and the Zionist in GENERAL, that makes a peaceful 1SS impossible. Figure out reality, and the whole chicken/egg thing.
I know of so many Palestinian civilians killed, way before those lost IDF drivers were killed (by a mob). And many were killed by the Israeli state ITSELF, though some were killed by Israeli "civilian" terrorists. Eff off on your select "poor IDF" BS.
I don't think a single state is in the cards, but that is due to a nuclear armed, racist, and demography OBSESSED Zionist Israel. Don't effing pawn off the reason why a 1SS seems unlikely on the fact that Palestinians have resisted, at times with violence and even terrorism.
The peaceful one state solution was ALWAYS there, but as you KNOW, ZIONISTS insisted on a Jewish state, and more land than they got from an already biased BS partition plan out of Europe. Now I would prefer a 1SS, but Zionism is the reason a peaceful 1SS is not possible, and also why we likely will not see a 1SS. Oddly, they are also preventing a 2SS, so it seems like a Masada death cult to me lately.
Blame the victim, per the usual Zionist line... Sadly I bet you believe your own warped decontextualized "poor me" "narrative".
Eff narratives, and look at the facts and the population flows. Look at the human rights each group has, or does not. Count up the bodies. Count up the dead unarmed civilians. Add up the land mass each resides on. Total the refugees. The you might start to realize this is the pure abuse of power, and one side has been flexing their muscles since 1947 and even long before that.
Two IDF soldiers were killed when driving on occupied land, that their government was VIOLENTLY and ILLEGALLY COLONIZING. You got it, and despite having IDF in my extended family, I would not shed a tear. I would shed a tear if I *knew* them, but I would also note that they made a big moral and personal mistake in not being refusniks....
Yup,
Eistein warned about the fascism coming, and with Likud now entrenched, Israel got it.... and is sliding deeper into it as the days pass.
link to physics.harvard.edu
Sage Francis, about our own fascist issue-
link to youtube.com
By the time the flags rotted off of their antennas,
they were questioning who the real threat is.
Big Brotherly love is the 21st Century's plague.
no matter how bloody the glove, question evidence displayed.
Don't forget what two plus two equals.
Don't let them upgrade your math no matter what they have as proof of evil.
Remember when they went after the Jewish people?
You don't recognize that same black mask as see through?
Attack of the eagles. If they don't fall dead
before they reach me, I'll be damned if I don't shoot one in its bald head.
F@ck what we're force fed. All I ever wanted
was a warm bed and a house that wasn't haunted.
I'd rather die for a cause than to die just because
we exhaust natural resources forced into wars,
restoring wasteful ways, keeping other countries poor.
"Monkey see, Monkey do" I wonder what those f@cking monkeys saw.
...
American,
I share some of your sentiments.
Aside from the sincere fears I stated above, there is another element to the 1SS/2SS debate, people often do not fully consider. What do they think the ~1SS will look like internally, as far as income, wealth, and privilege disparity?
In South Africa, apartheid is gone, but the economics now tell a new story of oppression and gross inequality. This is not to knock the end of apartheid, but if a *viable* 2SS is *achievable*, there are some serious benefits to both nations, in both tangible and intangible terms.
link to npconline.co.za
This might sound a little "racial", but I think there are cultural difference between Jewish Israelis, and Arab Palestinians (things I like very much about each). Even between Arab Christians and Arab Muslims in Israel, there is stark income disparity and cultural differences.
Might the single state actually look bad for the Palestinians, in the short and long term? The relative financial success of Jewish Americans is fairly astounding, and they are ~2% of the US population, yet are a dominant force in politics and have achieved very "above average" income and wealth. What would the economic terrain look like in ~50% Jewish Palestine? Even a few billionaire Jewish nationals could really rock the system. In fact, in Israel right now, a handfull of Jewish families control the majority of the economy.
I really love the West Bank, and the pace and the "feeling" of the culture. What might happen in a single state? Is it possible some things may be lost? Is it possible that a *Palestinian* state would afford them a secure place to define their identity and shape their own economy and economics, without perhaps being dominated by the existing Jewish Israeli elite, or a future Jewish elite?
Would a Palestinian state allow the Palestinians to become the exclusive profiteers from the tourism to their state (which will be high after a 2SS), and from their resources.... while a single state might see Jewish/Jewish Israeli capital divert the profits from these key resources? Could Arab Palestinians become a stark under class in their own land, simply due to institutional, structural, cultural or whatever differences? Might the 2SS be the only real means to ensure such ethnic dominance does not occur (which sadly already does exist in Israel)?
How bad will the tensions be in a ~50-50% Arab-Jewish state? Will it not ever risk devolving into outright race wars, much like ~1948, or other instances of ethno-religious violence we have seen in the world?
I lived in the old city in Beit Sahour, and I liked it. I lived in Tel Aviv near Jaffa, and I liked it (pervasive racism and ignorance aside). But there are very distint differences, and some things might be lost under the umbrella of one state (and it is the West Bank I fear may loose things).
I do think many Palestinians in the West Bank might prefer a distinctly and undeniably *Arab* Palestine, over what might transpire in a mixed, 50-50% ~1SS.
Can any Palestinians weigh in here?
First, we must endeavor to hasten the collapse of the present situation and subsequently, when new paradigms of genuine justice emerge from the chaos, be primed to push forward an entirely different solution that is currently impossible or inconceivable, be that a single democratic state over the entire country, a bi-national state, a regional confederation or some other alternative yet to be formulated.
jeff halper,
i always agree with you in general, but i have a very nagging fear, which causes me to lean towards the 2SS (i think both a viable 2SS and a just ~1SS are both *near* impossible, yet each remain conceivable; but a drive towards either has its own inherent risks/benefits/level of justice).
i think i have a very valid fear regarding a push towards some sort of 1SS (or bi-national state/confederation/whatnot). the SAME ethnocentric, extremist, and terrorist zionist forces that existed in 1947-1949, and largely created israel as we know it, are *still* around. in fact, they now largely have the power of the state at their disposal. and they are the same forces that worked so hard to destroy the 2SS, hence are also waiting in the wings to capitalize on the same chaos you foresee. they do think ahead when trying to engineer the flow of events, and i think we must fear their ability to achieve what we may think is inconceivable (especially as they engineered it, and must have had plans for after the accepted failure of the 2SS, including something aside from perpetual apartheid, which they know is not sustainable long term).
so i guess my question it this- does *part* of you fear that "evil" might trump justice, as chaos emerges? might it get worse? might the inconceivable end up being inconceivably bad, over what we would hope for?
if you have *no* fear of this, why not?
in my opinion, it is not inconceivable that under the chaos, we might see something like a repeat of 1947-1949. it seems impossible in the modern information age, but the world historically has gone through violent spasms and regional insanity, and such could occur again. the chaos can come in many forms, and can be both instigated and/or simply utilized by the israeli "right"/revisionist zionists. the things i think of include global economic instability, and regional wars. europe could even be distracted with its own right wing slide, terror attacks, a euro collapse, or whatnot. within israel we could see both false-flag and sincere terror, extreme race riots break out, *more serious* settler pogroms, *more* overtly fascist leaders taking power, and even the destruction of the al-aqsa mosque by a radical group or an element in the IAF/IDF (which would spark serious regional insanity).
i mean to stress that we should not underestimate the efficacy of the nuttier zionist players to achieve their ends, especially under instability. hell, that is the long history of zionism in the region.
people of your mindset in israel are gems, but the majority do not share your dreams, and in chaos, the powerful often dictate the flow.
though a 2SS seems hard to get to, and would require a sea change in the global community posturing, the benefit is that there is no *chaos* phase, which could prove disastrous for the palestinians. this is not to discout your position, and i think it possible that path could prove fruitful. but the small chance for utter insanity does scare me...
I also think the Israeli right wing loves when people push the return issue. It genuinely freaks out the majority of Israelis (not that I in any way agree with their racist fears), and allows them the ability to ignore the occupation and make false claims that there is no partner for peace, and we want their "destruction".
The worst thing for Israel would be a united Palestinian gov that insists on international law regarding the borders of their future state, and an explicit willingness to work out some resolution to the refugee issue that is acceptable to the majority of Israelis (meaning a cap on the number who are allowed return, but generous compensation to hopefully ensure that nobody is actually denied the right of return, should they want it.... There are studies that indicate that not so many refugees would necessarily exercise the right of return).
Also, maybe someone can help me with some historical context. Is there an instance where a sovereign nation was forced to readmit refugees they created through ethnic cleansing? Further, has this ever occurred with a significant population of refugees relative to the nation's population and/or >50 years after the dispossession?
This is what we are asking for. I want it to happen, but not only do I think there is little precedence, I also think it is politically not something we could impose on Israel. I'm not fully comfortable allowing nations to get away with such injustice, but I am also not comfortable making this something we never budge on, if it is not reasonably possible to achieve success. People are living and dying as refugees or as offspring as refugees.... but people also are living and dying under stateless occupation and violent colonization (many of them refugees). I tend to think the latter is a more pressing "where the rubber meets the road" issue, and many Palestinians I know agree with me. And if intransigence on the former actually delays or prevents resolution of the latter, I think reluctant acceptance of a historical injustice might be a pragmatic choice.
a number of people here so easily bury the 2SS saying israel will never accept a real 1967 (or ~1967), viable 2SS. but at the same time they think that this will end in a 1SS inevitably... perhaps painfully and a long bloody time from now, but we will get there.
i think this is absurdly optimistic thinking, and ignores that israel is a veritable force in all things political, and when things get tough they aren't going to stop playing their cards well (and in a RUTHLESS manner; nothing is ever off the table, including terrorism, false-flags, and wars). they are not going to overplay their hand and get left loosing their jewish majority state from some concerted international pressure (which does not exist at all to force such; but pressure for a 2SS does exist). it just is NOT going to happen.
israel would CLEARLY ditch hebron and east jerusalem, and take a 2SS, if the only other option was a path whereby they would be stuck with a 1SS where the zionists leaders of israel essentially LOOSE their jewish majority (the end of israel as we know it, and the end of israel as they DEMAND it- jewish majority). they would, if forced, take a 2SS and let the people complain about the '48 refugees (and ignore them).
revisionist zionists, likud and many zionist ideologues have been very methodically working to kill the 2SS, and continue to try to kill it. >500,000 settlers are the testament to this effort.
if we all want to deem it dead, they accomplished their goal. what great company to agree with.
and they did not fail think about what they will do next after killing the 2SS. a global awakening and the growth of the movement for palestinian rights should not delude us into thinking we have more power and leverage than we ACTUALLY have, or ever WILL have. the balance of power on the ground, and in the global community is not so justice minded.... they have long been appeased with the idea of a 2SS, including many palestinians and palestinian leaders.
i do not agree with what NF says, but i do think this issue needs to be teased out into 2 fundamentally different injustices, sadly with *different* hopes for amelioration-
1) the ethnic cleansing of '48
2) the occupation and israeli expansionism
some people almost seem eager to bury the 2SS because they think that such will, in time, spell the end of the ethnocentric jewish state. i just don't see it, and i think if the *majority* of the movement becomes intransigent on the right of return, and shifts to a 1SS, we are doing exactly what they want.... and they will spin it. oh will they spin it.
////
am i throwing the refugees under the bus? YES. but i want a token right of return and generous compensation. of course i *want* full right of return, but i'm a big fan of realpolitik. accepting an historic injustice in order to end another injustice. if the refugees do not get thrown under the bus, palestine will be thrown under the bus in time.
this does not mean i disagree with refugees and activists and BDS calling for a full right of return. i would not denigrate or slander these people at all, as NF did. i often join in making those "demands". but if this becomes a central and implacable demand, we won't be seeing any palestinian state any time soon. if it is a bargaining chip to be used in order to help force israel's hand, and allow an israeli leader to implement the 2SS? then it is pragmatic.
i love it.... the 2SS is stridently deemed politically and practically dead, but zionists ending their ENTIRE ideological jewish state thing seems like the next logical option and more feasible? laughable.
For the Palestinians to decide? They are fairly split on this, but if anyone showed me a practical path by which we could compel the nuclear armed, racist, and recognized state of Israel to EVER accept a just one state, then maybe I'd think it was feasible.
As impossible as the long envisioned 2 state solution seems, I find arriving at the single state much more difficult, if not impossible given realpolitik (in my lifetime). And if we do end up with a single state, I'd bet money that it looks like WW2 Germany and involves a repeat of 1948. Not my idea of a single state, but many settlers and Lieberman might be very fond of this calamity.
what baffles me, that so many jewish people active on israel, who call themselves "pro-israel" do not digest-
principled criticism of israeli crimes, and opposition to israeli colonization and expansion are good for israel (and palestinians).
"anti-israel" accounts for a fringe minority, and if they have the interests of israeli welfare in mind, they should simply join the "anti-israel" groups, and make sure the few fringe "anti-israel" types are further marginalized (not like they are any threat).
the "pro-israel" apologist actions are not correctly termed "anti-israel", but they sure as hell are the BIGGEST threat to israel, and jews alike. everything is upside-down for these propagandists, buying their own propaganda. a vicious cycle of lies the majority do not even comprehend. oye vey.
Annie.... you mean sh*t, not shit. Oh crap, now we're both banned. ;)
Though I think the next step might best be a 2SS (as hard as it seems to get there)... I'm all for this, and pushing it as an option (it is the best option, but I'd fear another 1948 before a just 1SS). I hope it ends up there somehow.
But this conflicts with occupy AIPAC! Grrrrr. I'm gonna leave Cambridge, living right next to Harvard, to hit DC for occupy AIPAC, and miss this great event. Hope there is good video taken and shared on the internet (I wish there was better documentation of all I/P events).
What does 2012 hold? Ask AIPAC, cause they will "ask" congress. Better yet, ask bibi, cause bibi will "ask" AIPAC to "ask" for what he wants..... link to aljazeera.com
BTW we should start a thread for people going to occupy AIPAC, and perhaps round the wagons at some point during the festivities. I should be there.
They can def get over 50% easy. The only outstanding question is if the majority of elites in Israel and the US actually want this war. It seems pretty insane, so I have my doubts. But of course, Iran is a fairly closed system, and we have instigated enough by supporting terrorist acts in Iran... So considering we have already risked provoking an Iranian response which would inevitably have led to war... War also seems fairly likely as the goal.
The world, but especially the "West", is run by insane people.
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Agreed that distraction is a main driving force from the Zionist side. But do u think they want it as a political theater distraction... or do they want the hot war distraction in the end (plus perhaps serious crimes committed in I/P during any regional escalation and war)?
The war seems very unpredictable, and though they are good at capitalizing on disaster, perhaps especially war situations, Iran seems like a new level of risk, especially to Israel's standing with the US (and even US Jewry).
i am split on what the real centers of power, in israel (and the zionists abroad) really want out of this iran BS. many idiots really want a war, but they are raging fanatics and i think outside the real centers of power. of course, connected/powerful people also are foaming at the mouth and putting on the appearance that they want war, but given the expected fallout from such a war, it might be posturing.
iran is contained, and not for lack of trying, it seems there is NO evidence for a covert weapons program. the 2007 and 2011 NIEs seem to confirm this, including recent top brass statements, including panetta and israeli officials. it seems plausible iran wants "breakout" capacity, but even such an ability to kick out the IAEA and run for a nuke is useless.... if iran ever took this path is it near 100% the US and israel would decimate them. hence, iran would never really "run for the nuke" anyways, which would take months if not more than a year. further, they clearly have sincere needs for a domestic nuclear power program and a nuclear research program, so it might be EXACTLY as it is stated to be.... a domestic nuclear program, monitored, and meant for civilian purposes (except maybe for the "breakout capacity" angle as well, but as stated, this angle is largely useless to iran, as you cannot imagine them ever taking it; israel would likely use nukes in the face of such as iranian move, well before iran could produce a nuke).
so then it seems there are two main options, for the "saner" people at the helms of power.
1) NO war is really in the offing. this is all political theater, and simply distracts from israeli crimes and israeli intransigence, all while uniting the israelis with fear, diverting them from increasing economic troubles, and consolidating the power of the israeli right wing. they just seek to contain and weaken iran, and promote internal power divisions.
2) a US and/or israeli war is in the offing (if israel strikes, missiles would hit tel aviv, US assets would likely be hit, and the US would join w/in 48 hours due to US domestic "pressures"/AIPAC/NYTimes/etc.). but this war would have nothing to do with a supposed nuclear program in iran, as CLEAR paths are open to avoid an iranian nuke in the future, and it seems iran is not even interested in pursuing nukes as it would be national suicide.
there would have to be some other reasons for the drive towards an insane (manufactured) war on iran. from the right wing israeli perspective it could include the following-
a) the destruction of a regional power that could pose an increasingly viable conventional "threat" to israel, if left alone. iran would not pose an "existential threat", as israel has nukes and would not be at risk from any iranian attack.... but simply an iran left to grow in stature would increase support for militant groups, and further frustrate israel in its expansionist endeavors. [this is likely similar to the reason why some zionists pushed for the destruction of iraq; i do not mean to finger zionists alone on iraq or iran, as the MIC, oil, and regional dominance BS geo-strategy also loom large- i think there are a lot of strange bedfellows in war, but each may play a key, indispensable role in the racket]
b) pure right wing politics, whereby bibi and the hawks seek to consolidate power from sparking off conflicte. it would suck for israelis, but they do not care, as it cements their sick power over the populace. little insane, but hell, we know bibi.
c) a regional conflagration could erupt, and perhaps the really right wing nutters seek this as a cover for a new phase of israeli expansionism/crimes. this could include ethnic cleansing, or perhaps a de facto unilateral annexation of much of the west bank. in real craziness, some nutters could even take out the al aqsa mosque. this is the dark mini WWIII scenario and though it seems improbable, i do not think this is impossible.
///
however, the draw backs of option #2, an actual war, is that it may have little upside, and could prove utterly *disastrous* for israel on many fronts. directly from the war, israel would take some casualties, missiles would hit tel aviv, and it is unclear how much south lebanon and gaza would react. outside of taking casualties, the medium term global reaction seems *horrible*. israel will strain already strained relations with the west, and arab regimes may become openly hostile to israel. the relationship with the US may even be put in jeopardy, and would at least sour a great deal.
basically it seems israel has very little to gain from a war on iran, even a US led war on iran, and yet could loose almost EVERYTHING. they could end as an undeniable rouge nation, with diminished support from the US (or retain continued US support, but the US would be in steep decline, and loose much of its value).
maybe i am just rationalizing it cause it scares me soo much, but it seems unlikely israel would ever want an actual war.
I like the "long moral suicide" quote. But there is a nagging problem I always keep in the back of my mind with Israel.
Israel will never die, at least not in my lifetime.
~200 nukes, the shoah card, the Samson Option, and influential Zionists in the US...
As much as I wouldn't mind if it collapsed under its own sins, and it reverted back to Palestine, that does not seem to be in the realm of possibility, in the medium term.
This is the reason I support the (dream/nightmare?) of a 2SS, despite the injustice that such would cement. The other options, for the lack of a 2SS, just seem infinitely worse. The whole thing is a paradox, and I'm stuck begging for the lesser of all conceivable evils. I'm a liberal secular NON-Zionist trying to placate Zionists with the success of the *main* objective of their ambitions. Take the unjust Jewish state born of ethnic cleansing you had, pre-1967, and live with it. And fine, you share Jerusalem. Just stop the additional BS. Just stop the revisionist Zionist BS, cause that is really untenable and unlivable for all people concerned with this issue, including Jewish Israelis.
man you beat me. I/P developments travel at the speed of light these days (as if a comedy video is a development :) i think facebook is helping the cause, and i think everyone knows everyone who is active.... which is also a sad statement on how few people are sincerely active for the cause of justice.
link to youtube.com
bam, there it is... even with max b.