-
-
- US official — we went to Israel first 0
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status … 22
- Israel takes 30 dunams of land near Salfit ‘for security … 4
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look … 38
- Rafah march for deteriorating hunger strikers as family appeals for … 0
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza 7
- Iranian talks fail after neocon ‘blitz’ — as Obama dispatches … 28
- Saving Illinois from Senator Kirk 9
-
- BDS victory: South Africa strips Ahava’s ‘made in Israel’ label 713
- Video: Israeli mob demands all African refugees be deported from … 475
- Day after pogroms, Likud MK calls for internment camp for … 427
- Neverending Nakba: Israel breaks lull, attacks Gazan farmers 413
- ‘This is not fair play’: Mahmoud Sarsak’s family demands his … 389
- March of the Flags 345
- Neocons in Washington Post: Military strike on Iran would ‘calm … 323
- Nabi Saleh’s Bassem Tamimi convicted by Israeli courts based on … 293
-
- The Messiah’s Donkey: Settlers fire on Palestinian villagers as the … 235
- Aharon Appelfeld’s rage at the German language (and Arendt’s need … 156
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their … 129
- March of the Flags 127
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism 110
- Feeling the hate in Long Island 97
- Israeli judge to issue verdict in Rachel Corrie case 94
- WaPo’s Walter Pincus says US is ‘going above and beyond … 87
-
Recent Comments
click link to see last 100 comments- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (22)
- traintosiberia: Spain has been allowing ( under pressure) any descendants of the victims of inquisition to settle in...
- Blake: Boy, history won’t be kind on you reprobates. I doubt anybody can be as despicable to you though as you...
- Talkback: Fredblogs: “Frankly if an odd sentence in a cherry picked report, and some obfuscating change of...
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism (110)
- Shmuel: You’re right, Hostage. The point I was trying to make was that even the illegal and immoral excuse that...
- Talkback: “The Arab and Muslim armies have marched on Israel on multiple occasions, …” When? Israel...
- Hostage: P.S. a bit of clarification, that should read: “both practices are violations of the same prohibition...
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their descendants (129)
- talknic: Fredblogs May 25, 2012 at 7:24 pm “For thousands of years, and even since then for anyone who isn’t...
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look for war with Iran in 2013 (38)
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza (7)
- Blake: Good comment Avi but I should have entered his whole quote in my comment to put it into perspective:...
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (22)
Our Writers
More WritersBlogroll
The War of Ideas in the Middle East
It is generally argued that a large number of CIA contacts in the Soviet Union were executed when Pollard transferred information to the KGB.
Well said.
It’s objectionable linking a legitimate struggle for human rights (in this case, gay rights) with an organization which is engaged in taking away the rights of others.
Could not have said this any better Donald.
I suppose the Itamar Settlers were killed by an errant knife, while the Jerusalem bus riders were killed by an errant backpack bomb as well.
Considering that Israel is the last European Settler State it is quite an embarrassment.
Jerome Slater has been published quite a few times here.
Please troll somewhere else.
Sorry but the only thing an IQ test is good at detecting is whether or not a person is mentally retarded or not. In fact that was the only reason this exam was even created.
Plenty of brilliant people would most likely score "average" on an IQ test and test variations on this type of exam can sometimes be +/- 20 points.
Do you really think this is a good way of judging any given "groups" intellectual capacity?
Do you honestly think Israel would win a PR battle if it we were to compare Palestinian violent resistance (which hardly exists anymore) to Israeli military occupation (which is in full force)?
You can't even compare the two. The Israelis have a monopoly on violence in this conflict with their F-16's, 2000 pound bombs, Advanced Battle Tanks, fully mobilized military etc. The Palestinians don't have a single tank, airplane, or even advanced assault rifle to fight back with. They've resisted the Israeli juggernaut with home made weapons and rocks.
So do you honestly believe its in Israels best interest to highlight violence in this conflict, considering that Israel is responsible for more than 90% of the violence and deaths?
Lets also not forget that Israel in its history has never ever been a "liberal democracy."
Its a common Zionist defense argument, often used on more "sophisticated" people (like NYT readers and college students).
If you blame both sides equally, the American tax payer funding the Israeli ethnic cleansing and occupation of Palestine will automatically deduce that both sides are "wrong" and that the entire conflict is simply a matter of stubborn people who need to "learn to get along."
Just imagine if this argument were used on any other conflict in which a marauding occupational army were destroying an entire people.
Darfur:
If only those Black African Farmers would learn to get along with those Janjaweed types, those pesky GEM rebels never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
He was always a liar, however, hes now the "designated" liar.
No one who advocates the One State Solution that Abunimah has been advocating has ever suggested that any Jews currently in Israel leave their property.
This solution accepts the fact that the Israelis who stole, murdered, plundered, and engaged in ethnic cleansing are to remain as they are with no changes to their current status.
The only difference would be that they would have to afford all people living under Israeli jurisdiction equal rights and allow for the right of return to any Palestinian who wishes to return to his/her homeland.
Abunimah's solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the most pragmatic solution that we have. The 2 state solution is long dead and was never viable to begin with for a multitude of reasons. The one state solution as proposed by Abunimah basically allows Israelis who benefited from the ethnic cleansing of Palestine to literally keep everything they stole. The only thing they have to give up is their first class citizenship status and live as equals with the indigenous people of Palestine.
In a sense Abunimah's solution (which is anathema to most Zionists) is quite generous in that hes basically letting Israel off the hook.
Its no exageration that Hollywood is largely run by a lot of people who identify as Jews.
Whether or not they are Zionists is a different question.
link to articles.latimes.com
Most of the major Hollywood studios, producers, and other top executives just happen to be Jewish. Is it anti-semetic to point that out?
It can be reasonably argued that the mass protests that took place against the Vietnam war had a lot to do with middle to upper middle class College students being upset at the thought of being sent into a meat grinder.
However, despite these protests the Vietnam war continued for several years and millions were killed, maimed, or missing at the conclusion of the war.
Thus, whether or not the mass protests inspired by the draft helped end the Vietnam war is still a very debatable topic.
Palestinians have made it very clear that Jews can remain in any Palestinian state that may arise (if Israel ever allows one to).
link to haaretz.com
Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad on Saturday said that Jews would enjoy freedom and full civil rights in a future Palestinian state, according to a report in the Aspen Daily News.
"Jews, to the extent they choose to stay and live in the state of Palestine, will enjoy those rights and certainly will not enjoy any less rights than Israeli Arabs enjoy now in the state of Israel," Fayyad said in response to a question from former CIA director James Woolsey at the Aspen Institute's Ideas Festival.
Even Hamas officials have stated that they have nothing against the Jews. Sheikh Ahmad Yassin (spiritual head of Hamas) was quite clear about this.
"We don't hate the Jews or fight them because they are Jews, they are people of faith and so are we, we love all people of faith, if my brother who had the same family and religion as me, if he takes my home and expels me from my land, i will fight him. I will fight my brother, I would fight my cousin if they did that to me. So when a Jew takes my home and expels me, I will fight him as well. I'm at peace with all people and love all people. I love all people and wish them well, even the Jews.
"The Jews lived with us for a long time. We never assaulted them or transgressed their rights. They used to hold high positions in the government and ministries."
"We don't hate the Jews, we only want them to give us our rights."
link to youtube.com
Nobody won.
Millions died.
Iraq has evolved into a potentially great future market because everything there was destroyed or turned to wasteland. Thus, anyone involved in the reconstruction of Iraq stands to earn billions.
Well, there is only one ATM in East Jerusalem and it is closed at night, but of course there are dozens of ATMs in West Jerusalem, open at all times.
I remember this resonating with me as well on my first trip to East Jerusalem.
Getting to the ATM in East Jerusalem was a little adventure involving a nice long walk, asking kids on the streets for directions every couple blocks, and avoiding the IDF (as they had just severely beaten an African American tourist the first night I got to East Jerusalem).
Of all the stark differences between East and West Jerusalem like road quality, uncollected piled up garbage, human density, IDF foot patrols smashing and shoving every Palestinian in their way, the single ATM machine for hundreds of thousands of people struck me as incredibly bizarre.
If only as a reminder of the different economic realms that exist in this single city. Israeli policy has only forced Palestinians living in East Jerusalem to live an economic existence comparable to that of a developing country whereas only a few feet away you have people on a European standard of living.
Beautiful indeed !
What could be more cake-consuming/preserving than that? Equality and supremacy with chocolate frosting. An “ethical code” for the commission of war crimes? Commando victims of aggression? One-sided cease fires and “preemptive” violations? Nuclear warheads for a nuclear-free region? It's all cake.
I particularly enjoyed this riff.
Given the way Jews have been treated in Arab lands, moreover, they have grounds to fear life under an Arab majority.
Yea, because look how great Arabs have been treated under a Jewish dominated government...
Iran gets around 60 billion dollars a year from the West in unearned oil payments. Saudi Arabia gets about twice that, and the law there is that everybody has to be a Muslim.
I don't recall Iran receiving any of my tax dollars. Last I heard my tax dollars were doing all they could to prevent Iran from importing basic medicine.
As for Saudi Arabia, at least they pay us in cash for all the crap we give them. Also, given that 99% of Saudi Arabian citizens are Muslim or Muslim identifying, its a moot to point to bring up the fact that a Saudi Citizen must be Muslim.
Israel on the other hand is a country composed of invading colonialists that ethnically cleansed 90% of the indigenous population and forced the survivors to live under ethnic domination.
Its a country where being Jewish means you have more rights and freedoms than being non Jewish in a land where more than half the people are not Jewish.
What makes it worse is that unlike Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Sudan, Burma, etc the crimes committed in Israel are funded by U.S Tax Dollars while the United States further destroys its own reputation and global standing by openly supporting Israel in its racist policies.
When a thief is sentenced in the court of law is that vengeance or justice?
Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing, apartheid, mass murder, laying siege to 1.5 million people, etc.
If Israel is not held accountable for its own actions then we are giving tacit approval to its actions; actions that are destroying any hope for a peace settlement.
You cannot hope to have peace and reconciliation without at least a modicum of justice.
And the Palestinians aren't even asking for full justice to prevail (a forced expulsion of all Jewish identifying people from Palestine).
They're merely asking for A) Give us a fully sovereign state on merely 22% of our historic homeland and you can have the rest of what you stole. OR B) Give us full and equal civil rights in the state of Israel and allow us to live as equals, Jew and Palestinian, One State, side by side.
The fact that this isn't good enough for even you liberal Zionists is appalling.
Nothing sums it up like this paragraph:
But this hope rests on yet another fiction, one that functions alongside of that of the U.S. as a good faith broker. This is the fantasy created by the language of “partnership.” Partnership assumes equality, or at least the possibility of such. It assumes a playing field that might approach being level. But an occupier and occupied cannot be partners in a negotiation. A militarily controlled and economically vanquished people confronting a nuclear power supported by the world’s remaining superpower is not a meeting of partners. The assembled wanted to believe that this partnership is possible — that the only task remaining is to match up the “moderates” on both sides, those willing to hear the other’s narrative (“Tell us what it was like to grow up in a refugee camp” Ambassador Indyk asked one of the panelists). These would be, presumably, the panelists on the podium and us, the supporters of J Street.
Perfect.
I have wondered why Lebanon and Syria don’t shoot down the IAF planes violating their airspace. Is it logistically difficult to do, or has a decision been made by politicians to ignore it?
From what I understand the reasons are multi-fold.
1) Hezbollah does not have the means to shoot down an Israeli F-16. The only anti-air weapon Hezbollah possesses are the SA-7 (strella) which are portable hand held anti-aircraft weapons (and even the existence of these weapons is not completely confirmed).
The SA-7 is incapable of reliably shooting down an Israeli F-16.
They can however shoot down Israeli helicopters.
Furthermore, the likelihood of Hezbollah ever obtaining the Russian S-3000 anti-aircraft defensive missile system is completely out of the question. The size of this weapon system and the infrastructure needed to properly use it automatically precludes it from being a part of the Hezbollah arsenal (never mind the fact that the Iranians are struggling to obtain this system).
2) If Hezbollah did have the ability to shoot down an F-16 they would most likely save it for an actual conflict so that the Israelis wouldn't be able to prepare themselves for it.
Whatever ability Hezbollah would have to shoot down an F-16 in flying at several times the speed of sound would most likely be a one time deal that would have to be used at the most opportune time.
I believe its worth remembering that despite how highly military strategists and historians view Hezbollah, its still a small militia group (in the 2006 conflict there were only 2000 regulars) armed with an assortment of WW2 weaponry (Katuysha rockets), AK-47's, Rocket Propelled Grenades, and an assortment of cold war era anti-tank rockets.
While they may have far greater discipline, training, and weaponry than say Hamas, its not saying much considering that their adversary is one of the most powerful military machines the world has ever known.
There you go again Yonira...
No one claimed that Hezbollah can do no wrong.
No one claimed that the Arab states can do no wrong.
Nor has anyone ever claimed that Israel is the only human rights violator on the planet or the worst human rights violator.
These are all arguments that you've created and rebutted on your own. If you want to argue with yourself, please spare the rest of us.
Witty, myself, and the majority of the pro-Israel posters can admit Israel is in the wrong, a lot, we know things aren’t perfect.
Then do something about it. If you genuinely cared you would be putting pressure on Israel to end the occupation, lift the blockade, and end settlement construction (all things that are destroying a peace deal and a 2 state solution).
Instead you sit here whining about how the Palestinians don't want peace whilst the IDF mercilessly drops 2000 pound bombs on residential neighborhoods, kills scores of civilians, and goes out of its way to destroy Palestinian infrastructure, and steal what little resources (water, arable land, etc) the Palestinians have left.
Our hopes for a solution is clear, a 2SS solution with both sides having a right to live in peace and prosperity, your side is quite cloudy though.
Unfortunately, none of you Pro-Israeli posters has ever posited a clear way of attaining this goal. None of you do anything, nor have any real plans for stopping settlement growth (the main impediment to the 2SS).
Meanwhile, the rest of us are simply asking that Israel become a Democracy in which all the people under its jurisdiction are afforded equal rights under the law. Right now half the people under Israeli jurisdiction either have limited rights or ZERO civil rights. And that is the crux of the issue.
For some reason this is anathema to you "Pro-Israeli posters" who honestly believe that advocating for equal rights is tantamount to the destruction of an entire people.
Think about that for a second. Thank about what you've become in your zealous pursuit of an ethnically pure state at the expense of the indigenous people.
That may be true if we were to consider Islam as merely an unchanging textual document. In reality Islam (like most other traditions) is a varied tradition that adapts itself to the situation around itself in a given space and time. Hence, why after hundreds of years of Muslim rule India is still predominantly Hindu.
Furthermore, in practice Islam and Hinduism in India have historically experienced a great deal of syncretism. Marriage between Muslims and Hindus at certain points of this long history was not uncommon and even today you can find Muslim-Hindu marriages (although rising nationalist trends are making this more unlikely).
Yonatan asked General Halutz, What if a Hamas leader were located in Tel Aviv? Would you order our pilots to fire there, risking Israeli bystanders? Halutz said no. So you value Israelis over Palestinians, Yonatan responded. Get someone else to fly your aircraft.
This is quite possibly one of the greatest ways I've ever seen the concept of accepting "collateral damage" debunked.
Bravo Mr. Shapira.
Why is it funny?
Your idealism is inspiring.
Never give up.
They got Casinos. Duh.
Its about time people start mentioning the obvious.
Will Youmans (Editor of Kabobfest) has a very powerful presence on the podium.
Lemme get this straight.
Israel is allowed to kidnap Lebanese and Palestinians civilians whenever it wants.
Its allowed to hold Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners indefinitely without trial without so much as a murmur.
Its allowed to bomb the shit out of territory it occupies (remember Israel was steamrolling Gaza at the time that Hezbollah carried out its operation).
Its allowed to violate Lebanese air and naval space at its choosing.
BUT
The Lebanese are not allowed to do anything to mitigate that.
Its totally okay for Israel to openly announce that they will bomb Lebanon back into the stone age (and then continue to do so for 33 days) because one group captured 2 Israeli soldiers and attacked military targets on the border.
And never mind the fact that the Katuyshas (cheap WW2 weaponry at best) did not begin raining on Israeli towns (and 80% of those katuyshas struck near military targets) until AFTER Israel began dropping state of the art 2000 pound bombs on Lebanese civilians and Lebanese infrastructure.
We've always known that AIPAC and its supporters were never really that big.
They're just well organized and know how to play the game.
Hence, why they move to squash any opposition to their domination on the topic of the Middle East no matter how minuscule the opposition is.
They know that once a movement against Israeli hegemony in the Middle East is given time to organize that their reign will be over.
There just aren't that many Americans who honestly believe its in America's best interest to sacrifice itself for a racist apartheid state founded on contemporary ethnic cleansing.
And I spent all weekend looking forward to those comments.
Precisely.
Camera's, social media, the Internet, and growing general awareness are tearing the Israeli Propaganda machine apart.
This latest Phone Application from Americans for Peace Now allows anyone with a smart phone the ability to view Israeli settlement density in the West Bank.
link to wired.com
Just looking at the map, it becomes clear immediately that a 2 state solution is impossible.
I still remember my first trip to Palestine, and not understanding when Israel ended and the West Bank began. The entire West Bank felt like it was fully incorporated into Israel, with the only difference between the West Bank and 1948 Israel being that the West Bank had a large population of people living at gunpoint, while another lived in San Diego style suburbs with manicured lawns and swimming pools.
Nice try Hophmi.
You would think...
This almost feels like deja vu.
Just like the Palestinians got to vote for their own government right?
Yea, that turned out great.
A legalization of the occupation.
Is unfortunately, the only solution Israel is willing to negotiate.
I think Ehrens response clears it up best.
By replacing Judaism with Islam or Jew for Muslim you can determine whether or not the question, assertion, or statement is racist.
For example, a statement like "Muslims in Lebanon have a penchant for violence in comparison to their Christian neighbors." (Yes I've actually read this in a mainstream American publication) would be outrageous if we were to substitute the word Jews for Muslim.
I mean, never mind, the falsity of the statement. The statement itself irregardless of its factual basis implies that there is something about Muslims that makes them more prone to violence simply because they are Muslim.
Hi Avi,
First of all, I'm glad to see that your still posting here and carrying on this really important discussion.
And yes, I agree completely with you and ehrens here in regards to the environment being the major actor on a persons motivations and actions.
We can take for example the Pakistani who tried to propane bomb Times Square a few months back. Its highly unlikely that this person woke up one morning, read his Qur'an, and thus determined that he had to bomb Times Square and kill as many people as possible.
No, rather, this person read the news, became infuriated by American attacks on Pakistani civilians, and resolved to take some form of action. The course of action he chose was violent and extreme. He then found vindication for his actions either through direct reading of Islamic texts, or through the understanding of someone else's understanding of Islamic texts.
Thus, religion factored into the equation at the very end of his thought process.
Its the same with virtually all of these so called "terror groups." These groups all have political objectives which are vindicated by their interpretations of a specific religious text. These political objectives are created by the environment they live in. Usually these environments consist of a horrible political and economic condition that they feel must be alleviated.
Its really no different from political groups who find vindication for their actions from a "secular" ideology . At the moment religious ideologies are more popular in the Middle East and thus have larger memberships than non religious ideologies. Only a few decades ago it was the complete opposite with secular socialist groups being far more popular than religious based ones.
In either case, their motivations are quite similar. Destroy their American backed dictatorships, alleviate poverty, nationalize their wealth, and alleviate the Israeli threat to their own security. Nonetheless, the violence was always there because the political and economic conditions that allowed it to fester has never been addressed, in fact its only gotten worse.
whoa, I've went all over the place with this response haha.
The replace "Islam" with "Judaism" method of testing something for Islamophobia always amazes me.
While it may be true that the Old Testament is full of bloody stories, it does not necessarily mean that the OT or religions in general are inherently violent.
The entire framing of this debate is stupid for a multitude of reasons. Namely that religion is neither inherently violent nor is it inherently peaceful.
At the end of the day, religion is merely how people interpret a set of "sacred" texts and implement them in their daily lives. And for most people, religion is merely tradition and simply a portion of their cultural expression.
People can read the same story in a religious text and come to radically different conclusions. These conclusions are often heavily influenced by the environment they've grown up in. I've seen pastors interpret Jesus's famous "turn the other cheek" to imply that Jesus really meant "hit me like a man!"
Yea, because Marty Peretz is such a beacon of non-biased reporting...
Adam's article here is about showing the double standard shown to Helen Thomas, who made one wrong statement, vs Marty Peretz who has repeatedly referred to Hispanics, Blacks, and Muslims with racist epithets.
Miss. Thomas whose done incredible work in the sphere of mainstream journalism was destroyed with one comment, whereas Mr. Peretz who has a long history of making racist derogatory remarks (never mind his history of covering up for the racist apartheid state of Israel) prances about as if hes entitled to be awarded by Harvard.
This is one of the best breakdowns of the Clash of Civilization theories I've seen in a long time.
Thank you Jimmy.
You nailed it on the head there Seham.
Which is why I'm glad that no matter how many times he posts the same debunked propaganda there are still people who continue to debunk him time and time again.
Its a Zionut tactic and unfortunately we have to respond to it.
Because its fun.
Debunking Zionut propaganda is a nice stress reliever after a long day of work. Don't you agree =P
I find it rather ironic that a group dubbed the "Anti-Defamation League" is one of the biggest proponents of apartheid.
Am I supposed to take such a group seriously?
For logic sake, it is possible for Hamas to be undemocratic fundamentally, and for Hamas to be elected in a democratic election.
Whats your point? Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine. They signed up as a political party, created a political party charter, endorsed the 2 state solution based on the 67 borders whole sale, called for an end to suicide bombing, removed their call for the destruction of Israel, and have done an excellent job of keeping Al-Qaeda out of Palestine.
Whats your hold up with Hamas?
They've shown themselves to be far more democratic than Israel, a country in which more than 50% of the population under its jurisdiction is NOT allowed to vote or have any say in how the Israeli government decides to treat them.
Until you adopt the logic of persuasion and appreciation at least of some element of those that you criticize, rather than hatchet, you will condemn the Palestinians to subordinated status.
Funny how you go on the war path against Alex Kane, yet you offer no constructive criticism of his article whatsoever.
The lobby’s unstinting commitment to defending Israel, which sometimes means shortchanging U.S. interests, is likely to become more apparent to more Americans in the future, and that could lead to a wicked backlash against Israel’s supporters as well as Israel.
Ain't that the unfortunate truth.
Really? Is that why these same nations continually keep offering the Israelis a permanent peace with the entire region for merely allowing the Palestinians to have their own state on just 20% of their historic homeland?
And were these Iranians, Arabs, and Turks threatening to destroy Israel before or after the Israelis ethnically 90% of the Palestinians from Palestine, subjected them to a brutal military occupation, apartheid, and siege?
Definitely an over played hand.
However, now, the real challenge is to prevent the Neoconservative and Zionists from dragging the United States down with them.
That's very facetious of you to claim.
How can Hamas negotiate a peace with the PA when they are merely acting as enforcers of Israeli policy?
Really now.
All you'd have to do is log into any online broadcasting of Jordanian TV to see for yourself.
Its not hard.
I don't think Donald is arguing that Jim Crow is equal to or worse than Israeli apartheid.
Rather I believe that one can draw many correlations between Jim Crow and Apartheid Israel.
This of course does not imply that its a good analogy. However, several aspects of Jim Crow are clearly visible and easily observable in Israel today.
In any case looking for a perfect analogy between a former/current crime against humanity and Israels crimes against the Palestinian people is a moot point. The fact of the matter is that we can observe bits of Jim Crow, South African Apartheid, 1930's Nazi rhetoric and actions, and quite a few other parrallels to describe what is happening to the Palestinians today.
Nonetheless, in the end the Palestinian oppression has its own unique factors thus perfect analogies can never exist.
David Samel, thank you for the comment, your insight is always appreciated by me.
However, I should have mentioned that I do feel a great deal of sympathy for Gilad Shalit. This is despite the fact that at the time of his capture he was engaged in enforcing an illegal occupation and blockade of 1.5 million people.
Nonetheless, being a captive and the effect of his capture on his family must be incredibly traumatic. If anyone should be forced to endure such pain it should be the officers and leaders of the IDF and Israeli government that convinced Shalit that enforcing a brutal military occupation is in the best interest of his nation.
Like you said Shalit was just a kid who, like every other kid he grew up with, joined the IDF when he came of age, and followed the orders he was given.
But we also cannot forget that for precisely the same conduct, a Palestinian would be considered a legitimate target not for capture but for death.
I could not have worded that better, and its for this reason that I find any Zionist outrage over Shalit to be incredibly hypocritical.
Gilad Shalit in perspective:
1) 1000's of Palestinians are in Israeli jails, many of them are women, children, and in some cases infants. Many of them have never been charged with a crime, and most of them are not serving sentences for violent crimes.
2) Shalit is a POW, he wasn't in his bed sleeping when a grip of dudes from the Al Qassam brigade broke into his house, shot his mom, and hauled off into an undisclosed location in the Gaza strip.
Nope, Gilad Shalit was pulled out of his tank while serving as a soldier enforcing a brutal military occupation that has been ongoing for decades.
How many Palestinians have the Israelis pulled out of a tank while enforcing a military occupation of merely a square inch of Israel?
what i am asking is this: how do we make it a one state democracy with equal rights, and not have it turn into an islamic republic?
Hi Oren,
There are a number of reasons as to why a single state in Palestine would most likely not turn into an Islamic Republic.
1) Of the more than 50 counties around the world with a Muslim majority population, only one of them is a full fledged Islamic Republic where the legal code, bureaucracy, and other state institutions are interpreted through the lens of a particular strain of Islamic thought. This country being Iran, and even in this case the situation is highly nuanced and not so clear cut.
Thus given that most Muslims have yet to implement Islamic Republics in countries where they are the overwhelming majority, why would a single state in Palestine where the population would be roughly 50/50 Jewish-Arab become an Islamic Republic?
2) Political parties like Hamas and Hezbollah which campaign on an Islamic premise, are just that - political parties. Neither group has really moved to impose their interpretation of shariah law on the populace. Hamas may have made some superficial moves in this regard (for example asking female judges to wear the headscarf in court) but in reality have not done anything substantial to the legal system, bureaucracy, or limited the rights of non-Muslims in the area under their control.
The same is true of Hezbollah which has yet to campaign on the premise of bringing their interpretation of shariah law on all the people of Lebanon despite the fact that they are in fact one of the largest political parties in Lebanon who draw their support from the largest sectarian group in the country (the Shia which represent nearly 40% of the country themselves).
In the end the greatest thing that can happen for the safety of both Jews and Palestinians is a permanent peace solution. Given that the 2 state solution is impossible at this moment, the only real solution would be a single democratic state that guaranteed equal rights to all people living between the river and the sea.
I think they just love the "concept" of such a state.
After all why would any progressive intellectual want to move to an ethnocracy whose future doesn't look to great.
Phil, thank you for always keeping an optimistic attitude on this topic.
And yes this report is amazing as well.
Holocaust survivor Hedy Epstein at 3:36
So basically the people in Gaza have to suffer because of a "what if" situation right?
You have to be kidding me if you honestly believe that the Iranians would be able to smuggle in real weaponry into the Gaza strip.
It would take another leap of faith for the Palestinians in Gaza to then setup such weaponry, deploy it, and actually fire it before the Israelis would even notice it.
But then again you are missing the entire point. The only reason Palestinians in Gaza have reacted violently is because Israel subjects them to a brutal military occupation, siege, and massacres them in mass.
If Israel were to stop doing that they wouldn't have to bring up stupid "what if" scenarios about the Palestinians fighting back with weapons that are more sophisticated than bottle rockets.
Again your not making any sense hophmi.
Let me try to make things simpler for you.
We'll do it through the lense of action and reaction.
1) Israel occupies the Gaza strip through a brutal military occupation.
Palestinians react through resistance, the majority of which is non-violent, while some of it being violent.
2) Israel responds to both forms of resistance in a heavily violent manner, dropping 1000lb bombs on civilian homes, places of worship, hospitals, schools, water and sewage sanitation facilities etc.
Some Palestinians respond by firing crude home made rockets into Israel which seldomly kill anyone or damage anything.
Israel responds with 1000lb bombs, commando raids, tank raids, etc, killing and wounding hundreds of Palestinians in the process.
3) This cycle goes on for awhile. Israel and Palestinian factions agree to ceasefire.
Israel breaks ceasefire.
Palestinians respond.
4) Israel and Palestinian groups agree to another ceasefire.
Israel breaks ceasefire.
Palestinians respond.
Israel unleashes operation cast lead killing and wounding thousands of Palestinians, destroying virtually all vital infrastructure in the Gaza strip, and then tightens its blockade of the Gaza strip ensuring that reconstruction material does not enter.
Of course throughout this entire period of time Israel is doing everything it can to de-develop the Gaza strip and make it a miserable place to live.
But then again, this is all besides the point. If Israel wanted peace it could have peace tomorrow. The entire Middle East including Iran and Hamas agreed to the Arab Peace Proposal put forth by the Arab League in 2002, 2007 and 2009. Israel has yet to respond.
Hamas removed its call for the destruction of Israel, renounced suicide bombing, and agreed to the formation of a Palestinian state BASED on the 1967 borders living in peace with Israel as a final status solution years ago.
Yet Israel has done everything it can to prevent this peace from going through.
Again, remember its Israel that breaks virtually every single cease fire between the Palestinians and the Israelis.
link to huffingtonpost.com
Thus, a systematic pattern does exist: it is overwhelmingly Israel, not Palestine, that kills first following a lull. Indeed, it is virtually always Israel that kills first after a lull lasting more than a week.
The lessons from these data are clear:
First, Hamas can indeed control the rockets, when it is in their interest. The data shows that ceasefires can work, reducing the violence to nearly zero for months at a time.
Second, if Israel wants to reduce rocket fire from Gaza, it should cherish and preserve the peace when it starts to break out, not be the first to kill.
The lessons are clear hophmi, make peace with the Palestinians. All they're asking for (even the most extreme among them ie Hamas) is merely 20% of their historic homeland that you stole from them. 1/5th of their homeland, and you can have a full peace.
Is that so extreme?
I highly doubt that even you would accept merely 1/5th of your home if it was stolen from you, yet even the most extreme factions amongst the Palestinians are willing to accept that humongous compromise.
What are you waiting for?
Oh they know first hand hophmi, given that most of them are barred by a glass ceiling from ever being generals of this military, nor are many of them allowed to fly fighter jets, or do anything other "sensitive" work for the IDF that may compromise the state.
I'm sorry but your attempt at tokenizing a disenfranchised minority group in the Israeli state falls flat on its face.
I'm sorry hophmi but crude homemade rockets from the Gaza strip have killed less than 30 Israelis (soldiers and civilians) in the last 10 years.
In that same period of time Israeli artillery strikes (precision strikes), 2000lb bombs, naval bombardments, tank raids, helicopter raids, and infantry incursions have killed thousands of Palestinian civilians, and wounded 10's of thousands more (often turning them into cripples for life).
This does not take into consideration Israeli raids that have kidnapped literally thousands of Palestinians from their homes in the middle of the night in Gaza, nor does it take into consideration the blockade that Israel imposes on Gaza that continues to get tighter by the year.
So tell me, if you were living in Gaza, is it unreasonable that some Palestinians have resorted to armed resistance?
No, on the contrary its human.
Finally, Hamas and other Palestinian groups agreed to ceasefires from Israel, yet Israel continues to break them.
Why?
If Israel is so interested in preventing rocket attacks why does it not simply abide by ceasefires?
But then again, Israel has a record of breaking ceasefires, in fact its shown that Israel is the first to not only break ceasefires 95%+ of the time but also the first to initiate the first round of violence more than 90%+ of the time.
link to huffingtonpost.com
link to mondoweiss.net
Here you go a list of the dead (and their pictures), virtually all of them minus the American citizen were middle aged or elderly.
"Humanitarian aid workers, a firefighter, a politician, a taekwondo champion, a photojournalist, a student who hoped to become a doctor — nine Turkish men, mostly fathers who leave behind children and wives."
Fanatics? Do you even believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?
Think about what your defending here hophmi. Sit down, do some introspection and think for just a second at what you are defending and justifying.
1) You are defending an illegal blockade of a 1.5 million people who have no access to the outside world, whose economy has largely collapsed, and where food shortages are leading to an epidemic of malnutrition and starvation.
You are defending a "midieval siege" (in the words of John Ging head of UNRWA in Gaza) that has forced the people of Gaza into a severe destitution, all because they dare to resist Israeli occupation and vote in democratic elections.
2) You are justifying a deadly commando raid on a humanitarian aid vessel that killed and wounded dozens of humanitarian workers.
Look at yourself in the mirror and see what Zionism has turned you into. Is this the future of your people?
And the videos showing the Israelis firing first are already coming out:
link to youtube.com
I'm reposting your post Avi:
If the Israeli navy did NOT deliberately shoot the activists, then why did they rappel down from helicopters as if this were Entebbe? Why the commandos in the first place?
It’s akin to bringing in a swat team to a Codepink sit-in. The act is supposed to be a show of force, mostly for domestic, but also for regional propaganda.
Back in 2006, when the ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah went into effect, less than 24 hours later, Israeli commandos flew to the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon and disguised themselves as as Lebanese Army squad, with a Jeep and all the right markings etc.
By dawn, the Israeli government was bragging about the brazen operation in which the commandos managed to kidnap two allegedly ranking Hizbollah fighters.
What was the point of THAT operation?
Well, after the Israeli army was sent packing from Bint Jubeil in southern Lebanon, the Israeli government decided to stage a brazen operation to boost the morale in Israel.
The attack on the FreeGaza flotilla has the hallmark of propaganda written all over it.
The fact that the Israeli press is claiming this was a fashla (Hebrew for SNAFU) is quite meaningless. Why? Because how else is Israel supposed to boost domestic morale, without showing its ugly face to the Israeli masses? The attack on Gaza was marketed as an act of self-defense. This was more difficult for the Israeli government to spin.
Plus, how many times before has Israel, Mark Regev being its ardent spokesperson, have claimed that “this was a terrible mistake and we regret the casualties”?
It’s become a broken record, a cry-wolf type of thing.
See if you can get through a post without linking us to debunked Israeli propaganda, making up lies, or blaming the victims for Israeli atrocities.
What fanatics aboard the flotilla?
If your definition of a "fanatic" are largely middle aged humanitarian aid workers desperately trying to defend themselves after being shot at with live ammunition by commandos invading their ship on international waters then you need to really check yourself.
Do you even realize how vile your comment was?
How is anyone supposed to respond to something so low?
Precisely, Israel will say that it will allow "humanitarian aid" into Gaza while crossing off non-essential foods, medicines, wheel chairs, building materials etc from the list of what Israel considers to be humanitarian aid for the people of Gaza.
Those people in the video are beautiful human beings.
There's no better way to phrase this event.
If the population of Sderot was traumatized Rachel, imagine what the people of Gaza went through during that same 8 year period of time.
Not only did Israel kill and wound thousands of Gazans in that same time period (a time period in which less than 20 Israelis were killed by rocket fire), it also fired 10's of thousands of artillery shells in the strip, dropped hundreds of 1000 pound bombs on civilian infrastructure, destroyed hundreds of hospitals, schools, water treatment facilities, sewage treatment facilities, power stations, the sole airport, and a multitude of other civilian infrastructure.
This also does not take into account the thousands of Palestinian civilians that were kidnapped out of their homes at night and taken away to secret Israeli detention facilities where many were brutally tortured for years.
Keep in mind that these are all things that happened before Israeli Operation Cast Lead in which thousands of homes were destroyed, thousands of Palestinians were killed and wounded, and upwards of 70% of the infrastructure in the Gaza strip was destroyed.
So tell me Rachel, is it any wonder that some of the people living in Gaza decided to fight back with whatever means they could (particularly with home made weapons...)?
Or are you going to sit here and repeat Hasbara talking point #14 in which you take us into a make believe world where all Palestinian violence towards Israel (from throwing stones to launching crude home made bottle rockets) is not only an existential threat to Israel but done irrationally and done with no provocation from the Israelis.
Israeli civilians are just that, just civilians like any other.
International law forbids the intentional targeting of civilians.
There's no need to resort to the kind of behavior that is typical of the Israeli government and begin killing civilians to send political messages.
Palmer also charged that organizers of the flotilla “are less interested in bringing in aid than in promoting their radical agenda, playing into the hands of Hamas provocations. While they have wrapped themselves in a humanitarian cloak, they are engaging in political propaganda and not in pro-Palestinian aid."
I love when Hasbara propagandists argue that Israel is interested in the well being of the Palestinian people and that any actions to actually help the Palestinians is counter-productive to the well being of the Palestinian people.
As if the party responsible for Palestinian dispossession knows whats best for the Palestinian people.
A few weeks back Yonira also stated that Finklestein made tons of money off of his speaking tours, which included a speech he was to make in Santa Barbara California (which was canceled).
Being a former student of that institution, I contacted my colleagues there who were involved in bringing Finklestein to UCSB and asked them "how much are you guys paying Norman to speak?"
They responded,"Oh, we're just giving him an honorarium."
An Honorarium...
Meaning, they're only paying for his lodging and travel costs...
This is besides the point that Finklestein would truly be a millionaire scrooge mcduck style if he had chosen to be yet another apologist for Israeli crimes against humanity. I'm sorry, but standing up for Palestinian rights isn't exactly a money maker.
Its time to organize the 100 ship flotilla.
I accept the tragic necessity of a Jewish state that can never be as fully liberal as I would like.
The question that breaks the impasse.
Hamas calls for end to suicide bombing.
link to guardian.co.uk
Hamas is to abandon its use of suicide bombers, who have killed almost 300 Israelis, in any future confrontations with Israel, its activists have told The Observer.
The Islamic group, which leads the Palestinian Authority, says, however, that it may resort to other forms of violence if there is no progress towards Palestinian statehood.
Yihiyeh Musa, a Hamas member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, said Hamas had moved into a 'new era' which did not require suicide attacks.
'The suicide bombings happened in an exceptional period and they have now stopped,' he said. 'They came to an end as a change of belief.
This is exactly how all atrocities are covered up these days.
For example, when the US military goes in and kills a few dozen Afghan nationals at a wedding party the media and military spokesmen go into damage control which consists of a few stages.
Stage 1: Deny, deny, deny.
Stage 2: Wait a couple weeks when the headlines have died down then say your going to do an investigation into the matter.
Stage 3: Start the investigation but ensure that it remains a private military affair, and that the only information the Press will get on the issue will come from Military issued Press Releases read out loud by military spokeswomen (its the new trend to have a woman be the spokesperson for the military these days; I think they honestly believe that massacres and mass murder are easier to swallow if a woman says it).
Stage 4: Continue to claim that an investigation is under way, while denying the reports coming from the investigation taken by the victims themselves.
Stage 5: Wait a few months, release a small press release stating that the military was cleared of all wrong doing for and call the case closed.
Stage 6: Once several years go by and nobody cares anymore (except for the victims and human rights groups of course) release a small press release admitting to the crime but absolving yourself of all guilt by citing a technicality.
Of course it doesn't always go down like this and sometimes you may even have to give a few soldiers community service for their "negligence in a stressful combat situation."
uhm... okay? whats your point again?
Oh I'm well aware of it Chaos, but the ridiculous statements still cease to amaze me.
The Guardian is the mouthpiece of Hamas???
Please tell me your joking.
I'll admit Chaos, this is on an order of magnitude far greater than even something as despicable as organ trafficking.
Nonetheless, I find it ridiculous that had any other country did this (particularly a Muslim country) the entire media would be all over it all day non stop.
Remember what happened to Pakistan when the AQ network was discovered...
Precisely.
Confidential documents from the South African government with Shimon's signature, eye witness testimonies, etc is just not enough.
But then again, Israel will probably deny this until the whole thing blows over then eventually admit to parts of it, just like they did with the Organ Trafficking scandal.
I was specifically referring to morality but yes US weapons and money can significantly cause a hardening of the heart.
How can any Israeli deny humanitarian aid to a besieged people?
Robin,
I would say its highly suspicious that a former Israeli settler (originally from the USA) with links to radical settler groups would move back to the United States, convert to Islam and then act out the part of a radical evil Muslim hell bent on the destruction of Western Civilization to the tee.
I'm not surprised that several of my Muslim friends view him and his 5 man crew at Revolution Muslim to be nothing more than agent provocateurs.
Nonetheless, there is still the possibility that once exposed to a radical ideology like Settler Zionism (for lack of a better word) its easy to fall into other radical ideologies.
Either way, most Muslims despise these former Israeli settlers turned "Radical Muslim" to the point where they've been kicked out of every single Masjid in New York City and are forced to preach their bullshit from the street corner.
Apparently you didn't read the article.
Since we've been derailed yet again by Yonira, I think its prudent to at least address her idiotic statement about the "Prophet."
Here's an excellent article on the matter, and how the majority of Muslims tend to view slander of their Prophet.
link to loonwatch.com
You can believe the nonsense that this was about land. It was about Arab supremacy in the region.
This conflict is about land.
Israel stole Palestine from the Palestinians.
The Palestinians want it back.
But being realistic, the Palestinians are willing to settle for 1/5 of their historic homeland (yes even Hamas).
Israel says no, stalls, delays, and does everything it can get away with to ensure that a viable Palestinian state on merely 1/5 of historic Palestine will never come to fruition by accelerating the colonization of the West Bank.
Nonetheless, you can stick to your racist narrative that its the "Arabs" that reject Israel merely for being Jewish. You can kid yourself into believing that fantasy.
Just remember that when you steal something from someone, they usually try to get it back. If the Israelis didn't want to be in this situation they should have thought twice before they decided to create an ethnic supremacist state on a densely populated land.
Explain how its more complicated. I fail to see how the situation is complex.
Fatah is collaborating with Israel.
Syria is begging to sit down for peace talks.
Hamas (the most extreme of the mainstream Palestinian factions) is willing to accept any solution based on the 67 borders.
Hezbollah is willing to accept any solution the Palestinians agree to.
Meanwhile, Israel insists on maintaining a brutal military occupation over territory it stole through conquest, enforcing apartheid on all the people that don't meet its ethnic criteria, subjecting 1.5 million people to a barbaric siege, imprisoning thousands of civilians (including women, children, and occasionally babies), and engaging in mass murder whenever it feels like it.
So tell me how is it complicated?
Your comment shows a lack of awareness on the issue.
The term "Islamist" is a heavily politicized term that doesn't necessarily convey a proper meaning. The term is used to identify groups as diverse as Hezbollah, Hamas, the various Muslim Brotherhoods, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc all of which are groups that are incredibly different from one another in ideology and action.
Hamas and Hezbollah for example are national movements who cater specifically to the Lebanese (Hezbollah) and the Palestinians (Hamas), they may have an Islamic character to them but don't have an agenda of establishing an interpretation of Islamic law upon the entire country or reforming the entire legal system of a country.
This is contrast to the Taliban which like Hamas and Hezbollah are national movements but have an agenda of establishing their interpretation of Islamic law onto the entirety of Afghanistan, and consider that to be a primary objective.
Then we have Al-Qaeda, a group that is not nationalist but believes in uniting all Muslims under one nation (similar to Zionism). Their leadership indicates that they have some sort of Islamic law ready to be implemented when they succeed in uniting all Muslim countries under one banner, but what interpretation of Islamic law they plan to implement has been a subject of huge debate. They also seem to have an all means (mainly violent) are acceptable approach when confronting any opposition.
Finally, we have the various Muslim Brotherhood organizations, each of which is its own unique case, but tend to follow the Hamas and Hezbollah model.
As you can see, the Islamist label is quite meaningless, unless you intend to use it as a slur. Why not respect the fact that Hamas was the Democratically elected government of the Palestinian people? Or that Hamas called for an end to suicide bombing years ago?
link to guardian.co.uk
Or that Hamas accepted the Arab Peace Proposal in 2002, and is willing to accept any peace with Israel that is based on the 67 borders?
link to timesonline.co.uk
There are plenty of points to criticize Hamas on, however, trying to label them as the main obstacle to peace (as if a group armed with home made weapons and a few hundred guerrillas poses a threat to a nuclear armed state with the most sophisticated conventional weaponry on the planet) is absolutely absurd.
<blockquote cite"I want it to be a state of its own nationalities, and the Arab minority to be recognized as a national minority. Israel is, according to the law, defined as a Jewish and democratic state. But there is a contradiction between the two values. If you are democratic, you should believe in equality. But if you define the nation by a Jewish ethnicity, you are saying any Jewish person is superior to a non-Jewish person.
And there's the conflict in a nutshell.
Thank you Donald for sparing me a click to yet another hate site.