-
-
- US official — we went to Israel first 0
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status … 22
- Israel takes 30 dunams of land near Salfit ‘for security … 4
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look … 38
- Rafah march for deteriorating hunger strikers as family appeals for … 0
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza 7
- Iranian talks fail after neocon ‘blitz’ — as Obama dispatches … 28
- Saving Illinois from Senator Kirk 9
-
- BDS victory: South Africa strips Ahava’s ‘made in Israel’ label 713
- Video: Israeli mob demands all African refugees be deported from … 475
- Day after pogroms, Likud MK calls for internment camp for … 427
- Neverending Nakba: Israel breaks lull, attacks Gazan farmers 413
- ‘This is not fair play’: Mahmoud Sarsak’s family demands his … 389
- March of the Flags 345
- Neocons in Washington Post: Military strike on Iran would ‘calm … 323
- Nabi Saleh’s Bassem Tamimi convicted by Israeli courts based on … 293
-
- The Messiah’s Donkey: Settlers fire on Palestinian villagers as the … 235
- Aharon Appelfeld’s rage at the German language (and Arendt’s need … 156
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their … 129
- March of the Flags 127
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism 110
- Feeling the hate in Long Island 97
- Israeli judge to issue verdict in Rachel Corrie case 94
- WaPo’s Walter Pincus says US is ‘going above and beyond … 87
-
Recent Comments
click link to see last 100 comments- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (22)
- traintosiberia: Spain has been allowing ( under pressure) any descendants of the victims of inquisition to settle in...
- Blake: Boy, history won’t be kind on you reprobates. I doubt anybody can be as despicable to you though as you...
- Talkback: Fredblogs: “Frankly if an odd sentence in a cherry picked report, and some obfuscating change of...
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism (110)
- Shmuel: You’re right, Hostage. The point I was trying to make was that even the illegal and immoral excuse that...
- Talkback: “The Arab and Muslim armies have marched on Israel on multiple occasions, …” When? Israel...
- Hostage: P.S. a bit of clarification, that should read: “both practices are violations of the same prohibition...
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their descendants (129)
- talknic: Fredblogs May 25, 2012 at 7:24 pm “For thousands of years, and even since then for anyone who isn’t...
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look for war with Iran in 2013 (38)
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza (7)
- Blake: Good comment Avi but I should have entered his whole quote in my comment to put it into perspective:...
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (22)
Our Writers
- Philip Weiss
- Adam Horowitz
- Alex Kane
- Paul Woodward
- Ibn Tufayl
- Anonymous
- Ahmed Moor
- Jeffrey Blankfort
Blogroll
The War of Ideas in the Middle East
link to youtube.com
Ron Paul at the John Birch Society.
link to youtube.com
Ron Paul at the Tea Party Convention.
I am sorry there are a few typos and missing things above. I wrote "and resorting to name calling" and I meant and NOT resorting to name calling. I also wrote "I am a supporter of either the repugs or the dems" and I meant I am NOT a supporter....
Shingo, I was not responding to you so butt off. I am not responding to your idiocies and stupid BS. Have a good night.
Taxi, and what is your connection to Palestine may I ask since you are questioning mine?
Kris, let me begin by saying that I truly appreciate your thoughtful comment and resorting to name calling and assumptions like some did here. Yes Ron Paul says the right stuff about the wars about Israel Palestine and about other things. However, I am wary of him and his libertarian beliefs. I am pro union and pro worker. I am against unbridled and unregulated corporations and business. I am against NAFTA, GATT and turning other countries into sweatshops to fatten the pockets of CEOs and shareholders but I do not believe that free market is the answer to strong regulations and control of capital. I am a supporter of either the repugs or the dems in fact I think they are the same party with different faces. I have warned about Obama in 2008 and unfortunately many here who now have become completely disillusioned with him at the time were tooting his horn as if he was the messiah. I do not identify with the oppressor and have been very outspoken against the establishment and in particular to uncover the illusion that the dems represent the progressive side of American politics. There are many aspects of Ron Paul beliefs that I cannot and will not support just because I refuse to be inconsistent with myself. As I said I am a socialist and the closest thing to my beliefs is the Green Party--that is who I voted for in 2008 if you want to know. Yes they have no chance of winning this election but I refuse to play the "electability" game. The reason is that I believe a big part of the problem in the US is the fact that people have become too complacent by being certain that it either a repug or a dem who will be elected and so they hold their nose and cast teh ballot for whom they believe is the least bumb. People have lost sight of the fact that it is after all their votes that get politicians in power. Many believe that the politicians say things to get elected and that they won't act on them once in office. That may in some cases be true but not always and so I vote for those with whom I agree and resonate politically not out of fear and not because of emotions and not because I know they are lying to me to get elected. I do not think Ron Paul is someone I can agree with on the personal belief level or political level and that is why I cannot support him.
Chaos, I agree with you that the Democratic Party has shut progressives out. They have been bought and paid for by the corporations and as for the Israel Palestine issue they are the puppets in hands of the pro-Israel Zionist lobby. I fully agree. But not supporting Ron Paul does not mean that I advocate the continuation of the current policy of unconditional and unquestioning support for Israel, does not mean the continuation and expansion of imperialist wars around the world and more importantly it does not mean that the alternative is the Democratic party. Heck I did not vote for Obama in 2008 (and not for McCain either just to avoid now being labeled as a repug). No matter how hungry we are and wanting to hear the right words about Israel and its Apartheid policies let us be careful and critical about those uttering those words. That is all I am saying. I do not agree with the libertarians and I do not agree with Paul on many issues and cannot support him and will support him. But again the alternative is not the Dems or the Repugs. What about the Green party? They are clear on where they stand on the wars, on Israel and Palestine, on gay and lesbian issues on social justice and many other issues. I simply do not trust someone who has the support of the John Birch society and who claims that his personal views will not affect his policies. It is like saying journalists are objective. It simply is not possible. Maybe some believe it is and that's fine. I don't. If you want to vote for him all the more power to you if you are doing that because you are convinced and have done the research. I am not going to tell you what to do. However, what I expect that my opinion is respected for what it is and not being crucified and called names just because I express an opinion which might not be popular here.
annie, I had a lot of respect for you for being an advocate of Palestinian rights. I still do for that work but I suppose that I was wrong about the person who resorts to innuendos and denigrating someone else whom they know nothing about just because they dare to speak their mind. All I said is that Ron Paul is a fascist and progressives should be wary about jumping into supporting him. That has nothing to do with where he stands on Israel or Palestine and I have serious doubts about the extent he really supports the Palestinians. How is that Hasbara? Do I have to unquestioningly support any first one who comes and claims to support the Palestinians? Suppose it was David Duke do I have to agree with him? All I am saying is that we should have some critical thinking and not respond to emotions and act out of desperation for wanting to hear the right words. If you and others want to support Ron Paul, please do, that is your choice and that is your prerogative. But I also have the right to express my point of view without fear of name calling. I guess I expected too much but I am not sorry for expressing my views and my opinions because that is what democracy is about. Although this experience with the Ron Paul fan club has confirmed my opinion that if you do not agree then you are an imposter, a fraud, or who knows what and that is not fascist behavior but the true democracy of the Ron Paul fan club--not much different than the Bush fan club by the way.
Again Shingo you just go assuming things and throw them out as fact. I have not read the Daily Kos once. SO you see you are just self absorbed in your own crap that anyone who disagrees with you is immediately some nut or some right winger or a zionist or this or that. I am a marxist and a socialist who believes that Ron Paul and his ilk are fascists. You want to argue about at an intellectual level that is fine but obviously all you can do is just throw accusations labels left and right without basis. I am done with your mediocrity and self-absorbance and navel-gazing. Have a good night.
Kris look at the link below.
Yes Chaos fascist is one who wants government at the service of corporations and capital--i.e "butting out of the business sector" like you put it. He wants to eliminate minimum wage and is all for unbridled capitalism and unregulated business. What do you call that? It ain't egalitarian and it ain't progressive that's for sure.
Why progressives should be extremely cautious with Ron Paul.
link to alternet.org
Shingo, he is not opposing the occupation of other peoples land because of a principled stand for justice and against imperialism. He is opposing because of his belief that America is first. He is against abortion and therefore against the freedom of women to choose. He is all for unregulated and unbridled capitalism and unrestricted free market in other words he is all for turning workers into slaves of the corporations. He wants government to be at the service of corporations. In his view government has no social role to play (other than ban abortion for instance). This is fascism--look up the definition. We Palestinians are not desperate to find allies in such people. Let's stop and think a bit. Not every critic of the relationship between the US and Israel is a friend of the Palestinians or is really for the liberation of Palestinians from Israeli occupation. Let us be a bit selective in who our friends are. I understand that some in the US are desperate to hear someone questioning the "special relationship" between the US and Israel but let us not succumb to emotions and be aware of where people actually stand on other issues. I am not advocating support for either of the Republicrats. But Paul is not the alternative and is not a progressive by any stretch of the imagination.
Let's not forget that Ron Paul is a racist and fascist. Palestinians do not want the support of the of his likes.
For those who missed it here is a link of a debate between former Reagan attorney Robert Turner and Rep. Kucinich. What is interesting in the debate is the position of Turner--who actually was arguing that the War Powers Act does not apply and may not even be constitutional.
link to democracynow.org
In all cases, I do agree with the what you wrote with respect to reframing the debate away from whether the War Powers Act applies or not--not many of us here I presume is a constitutional lawyer or scholar--to focus on the issues you suggest.
I admit that initially and naively I initially supported the intervention based on the fact that intervention was requested by the "rebels". Now I am not sure. The initial revolutionary thrust has been co-opted by elements of the regime, whose conscience supposedly and suddenly woke up. The intervention is in my opinion designed not to help the people of Libya gain freedom from the grips of a megalomaniac, psychopath dictator but an attempt to co-opt the Arab Spring by instigating and feeding a lengthy and bloody civil-war.
I don't see one wearing a keffiyeh and most people in the picture are not what I would call "youth" but again I wasn't there.
In any case I suppose the significance is that the keffiyeh has long become a symbol of revolutionary activism and possibly the author wanted to bring this image back and tying this to the revolutions rocking the Arab world.
Of course there will be ferocious opposition and of course there needs to be a grass roots effort and organization. How do you go about creating this organization if your voice is stifled and silenced? How do you bring the issues in public if you have no access to the media?
I am sure that annie has no illusions about the difficulties and required effort. I am also sure that she and the IDC group have a clear understanding that the possibilities of a win maybe very small. The question then is what to do? Nothing because a win is not possible now? Things do not happen if we just sit and wait for the "appropriate" time--we create the momentum otherwise we just are slaves of circumstances (that's what the established political system in the US have been teaching us citizens).
Having said that it is important that the effort be sustained for the future and build on whatever small success (even putting it on the ballot is a success).
I think this is a good initiative and I believe that a national coalition with various progressive groups around the country should be sought to make this not just a California issue but a national issue.
Good work annie.
In any system (of course we are talking about democratic ones here) there is a winner. Having a winner is not the problem. The problem is the choices presented to the voters. I refuse to play within the old rules like you put them "President Obama or President Palin". In my view this is a pathetic scare tactic which has been used by both parties to maintain the status quo and I am fed up with it.
Go ahead and blame me when Palin or another becomes president because I wont vote for anyone unless I believe that that person is the right one and more importantly is not telling me lies so that he or she gets elected and then go do the corporations business.
I did not vote for Obama (not for Dumber and his Bimbo either) and I am glad that I did not. All the hype and all the promises and all the hope that he managed to stir up during the campaign all came crashing and replaced by cynicism and apathy especially among the young--you can clearly see that in the results of the last elections. Voters are tired of being taken for granted and my vote has to be earned--no one can count on it unless they prove to me that they deserve it period.
It is an illusion that progressive democrats have that they can reform the party from within. The rot has become so invasive that nothing short of demolishing the whole structure would work.
A new progressive force needs to emerge to counter act the right wing and populist demagogues of the tea party and to reclaim the progressive voice from the Democratic party. Until that happens it really does not matter much who is President.
Seriously why would anyone waste their time with Democratic party? I am sick and tired of holding my nose and voting for Dumb. Are democrats really any better--a case in point what did Obama (Mr. Messiah to many) do to change (real change not fluff) the status quo? As far as I am concerned there is absolutely no substantive difference between the democrats and the republicans. As to the "good people" in the democratic party, well they should split and join the Green Party and make it a real alternative other than present us every year with same old crappy choice between Dumb and Dumber.
LOL. A good one.
I am deeply touched by your concern for how the "Palestinian solidarity movement" is portrayed and perceived.
I am also amazed at how unsubtle your juxtaposition of Munich, and suicide bombings with direct action such as the disruption of a speech by a war criminal. Do you seriously think that there is a comparison between the two and can you even characterize the disruption of a speech as violence?
justice, Witty gets it allright but will always, always try to obfuscate and will always try to find fault with any criticism of Israel or of zionism no matter how that criticism is presented and no matter how persuasive it is.
He is and never was interested in a meaningful dialog despite his self-labeling as a "humanist" interested in "peaceful coexistence". His mantra is Israel is always right and its critics are always wrong. It is as simple as that despite his fantastic contortions and torture of logic and facts.
You are wrong. Behind the doors "talks" would have never achieved anything. It is precisely the demonstrations and public actions that put the issues of equality in the public eye and pushed the politicians to act one way or another. Had there were no demonstrations, marches, acts of civil disobedience, Jim Crow and segregation would still be in place (not that they are completely gone mind you).
Would you stop falsifying facts and twisting them just to suit your agenda? we all know where you stand. Your mantra is well known to all: Israel is right and everybody else is wrong no matter what the issue is and no matter the delivery method.
Thank you Matthew for speaking up.
Bravo Brian. I am really amazed at the fact that those people like Waxman and others who supposedly have ready access to information can be so ignorant. Am I assuming too much by saying they have ready access? Maybe they just rely on their aides to brief them and therefore have only information that was fed and distorted? In either case it is really scary that people so ignorant can be in positions to make decisions which have huge impacts on the lives of hundreds of millions of people.
Thanks for standing up Brian.
"Israel’s best friend and ally, the USA, has supported those regimes from their inception."
Not only supported them but in some cases actively put them there. Democracy for Israel, the US and EU is only an option when it suits their interests or furthers their agenda (2006 Palestinian elections is a prime example).
What about hummus? What does the learned philosopher say about that?
What would Abe Foxman (and the ADL), B'nai Brith, American Jewish Committee and the Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs do now? Remember in 2007 when they delivered a letter to Congress pleading to drop its intent to discuss and recognize the Armenian Genocide?
Incredible. I grew up in Jerusalem and am about the same age as Mahmoud. I am certain that I know him. How can I get in touch with him?
Is it Herl who said of the anti-Semites "they will be our allies"?
Changing batteries does not require readjusting the time. what I find curious is the fact that someone here on Mondoweiss posted a number of links to Archives on the same israelMFA page where those photos were archived under 2006 with different cropping I believe he said. When I went to check the archives were inaccessible and were later removed. I find it suspicious. However, it is possible that someone forgot to set the date on the camera. Regardless, though, this is a very sloppy PR campaign, very amateurish just like the attack on the Mavi Marmar.
One note regarding the vests. The symbol on them is that of the Red Crescent and so are obviously destined to the Red Crescent or emergency medics who have to enter "combat" areas and be exposed to fire: a perfectly legitimate use of a bullet proof vest.
No they don't. The uploading is based on the upload date.
I wonder if there is a track back. There must be some way of getting those picture archives.
The dates on the pictures have been changed too. However, the EXIF data still shows the 06 date.
Awesome. Here's one journalist with integrity and spine. I suppose that we will never see someone like him in the US MSM (Mainstream Shit Media).
droog, it seems that it already has. There are no archives or they are inaccessible.
I thought that those were professional spin doctors--silly me. Yes Yonira we all know how the camera works. This shows one thing: this cover-up is just as sloppy as the murders that took place on the Mavi Marmara.
there was another picture on flickr link to flickr.com
Look at the date the picture was taken (EXIF data fromthe camera) !!!! They can't even lie properly those fucking bastards. They really think that they are talking to idiots must be the result of thinking that they are superior to everyone else.
Shmuel, can't you figure it out? Those papers are disassembled airplanes, which can be loaded with missiles disguised as pencils and launched to cause serious destruction.
Right on Sumud.
That is precisely the claim of Zionism since its inception: Anti-Semitism will always be so long as Jews live among gentiles. This is a preposterous proposition and premise. It is conceivable that Zionists carry out all those atrocities in the name of Jews so as to make anti-semites and then say "we told you so"--a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anti-Semitism is wrong as any form of discrimination and racism targeted at a group of people because of their ethnicity, skin color, religion or any other criteria. It is wrong and abhorrent to hate Jews because they are Jews. What then distinguishes us from the settler racists who go around painting the star of David along with the caption "Kill the Arabs". Do we want to sink to this level of murderous hainous mentality? We Palestinians have always made it clear that we do not equate Zionist and Jew. We will not deviate from that and we will continue to make the distinction.
Outrage, anger, sadness must never blind us to this fact. We fight for freedom and for justice. Our struggle is against the murderous, settler colonialist and racist state: the State of Israel our fight is not with the Jews as such. We must keep that in mind despite the anger.
The Vietnamese fought the US army on its territory not merchant sailors and civilians. Killing civilians is abhorrent no matter what nationality they maybe. That is plain and simple murder. Remember that two wrongs do not a right make.
Contact and leave a message to Obama at www.whitehouse.gov/contact
I just did.
FUCK OFF.
From the Guardian (London)
The Stop the War coalition is organising a protest outside Downing Street at 2pm today.
"Yet another act of Israeli barbarism as its forces storm one of the seven ships on the international flotilla taking aid to Gaza, where Israel's illegal seige is starving Palestinians of essential resources. At least 20 activists on board are reported to have been killed by Israeli forces. Please join the emergency demonstration today if you can. Publicise it as widely as possible by email, text, Facebook, Twitter etc."
Who are you? An IDF plant posing as a an Arab or Muslim? Pathetic.
Who is Jew bashing? Do you equate Zionist and Jew? Those are two different things in fact as different as night and day. Yes there were Israeli activists on board and there are Israeli and Jewish activists here who are anti-zionist and are outraged at the behavior of this Nazi like state, Israel, the birth child of a racist ideology that is Zionism.
Yes I hate Israel because it is a racist settler colonialist state founded by a hateful and racist ideology. Yes I hate Israel because of its murderous policies and its actions and history written in the blood of the innocents massacred in cold blood.
Yes I hate Israel because of people like you cheering, justifying and condoning murder.
FUCK YOU Witty you are nothing but a royal asshole.
yes edwin. Those who choose to look the other way and those who justify the killing of innocents are complicit in murder.
My sympathies and thoughts are with those who were killed and their families and friends. May they rest in peace.
Yep of course it is always the Palestinians (one group or another) that is responsible for anything and everything. Yes it is Hamas that elected the "far right" government in Israel. What a moron !!!!!
"What skills have you learned Witty?"
Don't you know Shingo? Witty is skilled in the art of obfuscation and non sequitur. He is quite impressive in both.
Annie, thanks for the response. I do agree with your last sentence but would remove "right now". The path is indeed the same in the sense that it is the religio-Zionist ideology that is preventing either a Single Democratic State (SDS) or Two States (TS) from emerging. Some would claim that the TS is more realistic and answers the immediate need to alleviate the miserable daily reality of Palestinians in the WB and Gaza. However this assumes that there is a willingness on the part of Israel to seriously and honestly engage in fair negotiations but most importantly accept the principle of a truly sovereign Palestinian State. Call me a cynic but I do not see that ever materializing for a number of reasons which I won't go into right now. Anyone who has followed the various scenarios and proposals put forward by Israel and deemed acceptable to it would come to the conclusion that what is proposed is a revamped and modified Allon Plan of autonomy (1968)--which the Palestinians might want to call a state if that pleases them (that's what one Israeli official whose name escapes me right now has actually said).
Like you say the path is the same and in my opinion it is the struggle for human rights and self determination. This charade of "peace process" which is more about process than about peace is designed to split the Palestinians into "good" and "bad" Palestinians and to divert the struggle into in-fighting between those who are ready to accept and work within the Israeli imposed perimeter and those who don't instead of unifying together in the fundamental struggle for human rights.
Neither a TS nor a ODS will come to light anytime soon but what we will see emerging will be more resembling Apartheid than anything else--not that we are not there already.
IMHO, what we should all be saying is End the Occupation--which is an affirmation of the human rights and the right to self determination nature of the struggle.
French is an ethnicity???????????
French is citizenship not ethnicity and if you do not know the difference maybe you should go back to school and pay attention this time. What an idiot!!!!!!!
"The choice of jurisdiction is a choice." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW what an insightful discovery. Yep. Breathing air is breathing !!!!
For me the One State Solution is not a fall back position. It is a matter of principle. If I accept an ethnocentric state granting privileges to a group of people based on their religion or ethnicity I would have to accept it in all cases. I cannot oppose segregation in one case and then turn around and accept it in another because the idea of maintaining a "Jewish majority" in order to to safeguard the "Jewish character" of Israel necessarily leads to non-Jews being relegated to second, third class citizens or to having their rights abridged. This is what Apartheid was and is in Israel. Citizens of a state must all enjoy the same rights and have the same obligations. One person one vote: that is the premise of a true democracy.
Just like in SA Apartheid -- boycott Israel and its products period.
Fuck Israel and the US.
I don't have time to waste with a little bigotted fascist cloaking himself with a thin and tattered cloak of "humanitarian" disguise. If you cannot read and comprehend then maybe you should go back to schoola and learn some critical thinking instead of regurgitating meaningless words sounding like a diarreah of a sick mind than anything else.
What an pathetic specimen of Zionist scum bag you are Witty. You "hope for non-violence from the flotilla but you do not mention the violence that is threatened by your Israel against it. You do not mention the starvation and the crime that Israel has been engaged in for years against the people of Gaza. You claim that you are a human being yet you justify every atrocity, every crime, every massacre Israel has committed against Palestinians since its inception. Who are you trying to fool Witty? Are you trying to convince yourself? Because your pathetic lies and feigned concern do not fool anyone here. You are nothing but a scum bag of an apologist for crime and murder of innocents.
The word de l'an for Witty is "ambiguous". It is amazing that the whole world including the US legally refers to and talks about "occupied territories" yet Mr. Witty still finds it ambiguous. Obfuscation anyone? or is it simply ideological closed mindedness?
Population of occupying powers transferred to occupied territories may loose their civilian status because they become illegal occupiers particularly when they are armed and engage in aggressive acts of intimidation and aggression regardless of whether they wear the uniforms of the occupying army or not.
" 2.Occupation leads to resistance, which may include assaults on civilians of the occupying nation. Apparently there is no legal justification for it. Bad resistance! "
Resistance to occupation is legal and legitimate. Attacks on civilians by resistance movements or by occupying powers is neither. That includes collective punishment etc...
States do have the right to defend their citizens. However, states do not have the right to transfer their citizens into occupied territories and they do not have the right to annex such territory. The Fourth Geneva Convention clearly spells out the obligations of the occupying country with respect to the occupied population and territory.
that should be forgive me Shmuel :)
Forgive Shmuel. I really am sorry I did not realize that those sources which when convenient to legitimize Israeli actions are cited but when they point to the crimes of Israel they become anti-semitic. I should be careful with those Cameleon organizations shouldn't I :)
This right has been affirmed by UN bodies, including the UN Security Council, the UN General Assembly, the UN Commission on Human Rights, the International Law Commission and the International Court of Justice.
See UN General Assembly Resolutions 37/43, 1514, 3070, 3103, 3246, 3328, 3382, 3421, 3481, 31/91, 32/42 and 32/154
See Article 1(4) of Protocol 1 of the Geneva Conventions.
See UN Charter
Mr. Witty why is it that you always must twist facts and try to blur the issues? International law unequivocally states that occupied peoples have the right to resists occupation including the use of arms. This is not my opinion and it's not the personal opinion of anyone here it is an agreed right granted by international law. Yes civilians must be protected and cannot be targets neither by those who resist occupation nor by the occupying power--'collateral damage' is a sanitization of murder by the occupying forces to absolve it from wrong doing.
Would you please heed the example of Mr. Thau and be willing to open your mind --even a crack--to some different view point without always resorting to your usual obfuscation?
Thank you Mr. Siegel for your generosity. Also thanks to Mr. Thau for his willingness to admit wrong doing and to extend an apology. I only hope that this incident will lead to Mr. Thau coming to the realization that Palestinians are human beings and that "their beef" is not with the Jews but with Zionism, a nationalist settler colonialist movement which stole the land from its indigenous people and inhabitants to create an exclusivist ethnocentric, therefore racist, state very much like Apartheid and other settler colonialist entities. I can hope. Can't I?
Yep nothing better than to compare yourself to an ass to feel like a dick.
jonah, your information is stale. If you simply have taken a little time to do some research instead of relying on your old propaganda manuals, you would have found this: link to jta.org
language
Israel did not punish Hamas. For years now Israel has been punishing the 1.5 million people who live in Gaza and who may or may not have anything to do with Hamas. This is a criminal act. More than half of those killed in Gaza were civilians. This is a war crime and you condone those war crimes which makes you nothing more than an apologist and complicit in murder.
Mr. Witty, you can continue your obfuscations and you can continue regurgitating your propaganda and you can continue your baseless claims but all of this does not change the facts that the right of return is very clear and is based on principles of international law, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well as UN resolution 194.
Article 13 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that any person has the right to leave any country including his own and to return to his country. Refugees and their descendants are therefore entitled to return to the territory which they left voluntarily or forcebly. What is not clear about that?
Article 11 of UN resolution 194 states:
"... that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible; Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations " What is not clear about that other than the fact that it does not fit your agenda?
"trumps your concern for the well-being of the Palestinians, it’s quite sad. " And you certainly are very much concerned for the Palestinians? Right Yonira?
You have zero credibility here Yonira because you simply regurgitate official propaganda without ever questioning anything. Yonira you are a pathetic specimen of brainwashed vessel full of nothing but garbage and poisonous venom. Open your mind.
No the purpose is not only to educate. The purpose is to put pressure and to isolate. The purpose is to show Israel, government and people, that civil society around the world does not condone nor justifies the continued human rights violations and breaches to international law which has become the routine in Israel's politics and norm of behavior vis-a-vis the Palestinians.
Yes there maybe a few who might be "against their government’s policies of repression, colonialism, and all the other nasties." There are such people everywhere (I am sure there were in SA during Apartheid). Just because there is a minority of good people who do not support their government's actions does not mean that we cannot call for and implement BDS--who knows it might even spur those critics into more action.
Fuck off you little Nazi shit.
Taxi, yes I know and it is ironic indeed. Both are scum bags fascists. We might see this neo-nazi Cowboy doing the same thing with a group of other gas-chamber-operators-wannabes doing the same thing to a brown skinned person in Arizona.
Go screw yourself AZCowBoy. You are nothing more than a pathetic specimen of white spuremacist hateful rhetoric.
"I do think that the Gaza War was necessary, in fact was insisted on by Hamas (which is why I hold them very highly responsible for the horror that befell Gazan civilians)."
Yep the classic rapist "defense": provoked into rape and it's the victim who is responsible for the crime. Isn't that right Mr. Witty?
Sure and labor has never built any settlements nor encouraged the settlers. Labor never occupied territories in Gaza and WB, never demolished homes, nor did it uproot trees and communities.
Liberal Zionism (an oxymoron for sure) if it ever existed as you imagine it did never amounted to any significant portion of the population. Just look at the succession of Israeli governments and their policies with respect to the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs to realize the canard of what you claim.
Annie, the picture would make a great juxtaposition with the above.
Thank you Elvis. As for Bono? He is nothing but a sweet talking hypocrite with unquenchable thirst for publicity.
thankgodimatheist, no I am not new here although I don't post constantly.
What I am trying to do is maybe make zamaaz think about his argument a bit if that leads to a dialogue that is a good thing. I know (because I read his posts) that a lot of his posts are very confused and rely on regurgitation of propaganda and biblical nonsense however, I am willing to talk to anyone who is willing to listen. If he wants to listen and open his mind and is willing to accept that there maybe a different perspective then I am willing to engage him. If he is not then that's the end of it.
It's simply a fact of war eh? How about I declare war on you, occupy your home and take your property I am sure you will be very content to know that god asked me to do that because he gave me title to your property for me and my family for eternity. I am certain you will unquestioningly accept. Am I wrong Zamaaz?
And you always provide proof for what you say yonira--and I am not talking about links to Zionist propaganda crap. Oh sorry, you had David Horrowitz video--this pathetic figure who longs for the days of McCarthy.
"Before the partition, Jews comprised only one-third of the population of Palestine, which held some 608,000 Jews and 1,237,000 Arabs. Even within the area designated for Israel under the U.N. partition plan, the population consisted of some 500,000 Jews and 330,000 Arabs. How could a country with such a large Arab minority become a Jewish homeland?[1]"
.
.
.
"There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.[4]"
You can read the rest here link to robincmiller.com
with references to reputable historians and the propaganda sheets that Siden, yonira and the rest of the apologists for ethnic cleansing, murder, and Apartheid like to spew.
I do not expect Benny Morris, the apologist for ethnic cleansing to say otherwise. Nonetheless, it is very convenient that he skips over 1948. He does not deny his previous research and conclusions.
Of course, what else do you expect him to say? That the Zionist state is not interested in peace and has done everything to create an environment where peace is not achievable? What do you make of Dov Weissglas and his statements published in Israeli newspapers? What Israel wants is a subserviant docile Palestinian population that accepts whatever Israel dictates and if they refuse they are rejectionists and terrorists. Keep the propaganda and distortions coming but you must realize that you're not fooling anyone and you're not dealing with idiots.
" About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion."
"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."
What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?
"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."
.
.
.
"Ben-Gurion was right. If he had not done what he did, a state would not have come into being. That has to be clear. It is impossible to evade it. Without the uprooting of the Palestinians, a Jewish state would not have arisen here."
When ethnic cleansing is justified
Benny Morris, for decades you have been researching the dark side of Zionism. You are an expert on the atrocities of 1948. In the end, do you in effect justify all this? Are you an advocate of the transfer of 1948?
"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."
This is an excerpt from an interview Avi Shavit has conducted with Benny Morris, a Zionist by his own admission and an apologist for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
"In an interview in Ha’aretz in 2004, Dov Weissglas, chef de cabinet to the then prime minister, Ariel Sharon, described the strategic goal of Sharon’s diplomacy as being to secure the support of the White House and Congress for Israeli measures that would place the peace process and Palestinian statehood in ‘formaldehyde’."
Yep it is the Palestinians who do not want to negotiate !!!!!!!!!!!
lrb, I agree. Some here think that they are doing the world a favor engaging the trolls who obviously have a way of diverting any discussion away from the topic. Instead of ignoring them we are actually encouraging them.
I am not sure where you are but there is this story in the US now where a student is protesting the AP (Advanced Placement) English exam because of its use of a quote by the late Edward Said. The claim is that because the exam states that E. Said is a Palestinian-American, the quote has and the exam have acquired political meaning and significance causing Jewish students to feel uncomfortable and the AP exam has become biased as a consequence.
Since day one Palestinians have been silenced, marginalized and hidden behind the cloak of invisibility. Everywhere, attempts to silence Palestinians has been going on and yet everyone wants to tell us what to do and how we should behave and conduct ourselves. This student's concern and outrage was not about the quote which was about exile in the most generic way but because the word Palestinian was used to refer to the author. Palestinians in her mind are not meant to be scholars, thinkers, intellectuals, etc...They are not meant to be human beings, period. They are to remain invisible, subhuman barbarians who have contributed nothing to the world other than strife and suicide bombings.
I am not for silencing anyone because I, as a Palestinian, remember when I was young in Jerusalem riding the Israeli bus with friends we were afraid to speak Arabic because we did not want to feel the sting of dirty looks. We did not want to feel diminished to the size of an ant. This is what silencing means and feels to me because I have lived it and I have experienced it.
If I accept that silencing someone is OK then I have to accept that someone seeks to silence me and I cannot accept that.
Cliff, I said "proud of it" not because of you but because of all who would want me to disappear and to be invisible. I am not going to engage in debate with you. However, what I want to say is this: when would the world start listening to Palestinians instead of telling us all the f***ing time what we need to do and how should we behave?
Cliff, I am Palestinian and proud of it. I am not placating anyone. My comment was that 'lrb' did not say anything that indicates agreement with the nut cases.
Yes, you are right that calling someone a "whore" and advocating genocide and justifying murder, etc... are all acts that deserve to be condemned. Banning those people does not solve the problem nor does it help end Palestinian suffering and the establishment of justice. Let them speak and expose to the world what they really think and who they really are. Are we afraid that they actually have some credibility and that they will convince people of the veracity of the venom they spew? What are we afraid of?
Anyone of us here who is truly educated about the conflict can tear to shreds all the arguments and expose all the bullshit.
I am not afraid to challenge any of the propaganda and of the distortions, bigotry and hate that those characters espouse and advocate. Let them say whatever they want and show the world their true nature.
Yonira thank you for your stating that "advocating genocide is wrong" I don't believe that anyone here would disagree with you if you actually mean that this statement extends to all peoples without exception.
However, I really fail to see the connection between the statement and the video. Are you implying that the student condones and advocates genocide? Where did she state that? The student did not advocate genocide and her question was very clear and to the point. She was very courteous and polite. So what are you trying to say? Do you espouse the same view as those who equate Muslim or Arab with terrorist? If so doesn't that make you a bigot?
Cliff, please there is no reason to start throwing accusations. There is nothing that lareineblanche said that deserves your tirade. I perfectly understand what "lrb" said and she/he did not mean simply the this nut case of Zamaaz. I think you owe lrb an apology. Nothing that 'lrb' wrote suggests agreement with Zamaaz or even tolerance for what this apologist for genocide wrote. On the contrary.
Cliff, why ban him? If he wants to make a fool of himself and show to the world his despicable ideas which promote hate, murder, and genocide, by all means let him.
I am sorry I foergot to put a link to Naiem Giladi's quote:
link to palestineremembered.com
"A million Jews lost their homes in Arab countries with out hope of getting them back, Israel took them in. the oil rich, land rich Arab world should have accepted their brethren. Instead for political reasons they kept them in camps. "
While it is true that some countries expelled Jews, it is also important to realize that this was the result of the Zionist actions in Palestine. This is not excuse the expulsion but to put things in context.
Also it is important to realize that in many cases Zionists were also responsible for creating an atmosphere of hatred and of insecurity so that they can populate Palestine with Jews, as Jewish mass immigration did not materialize. I suggest reading other material than your Hasbara pamphlets and go beyond the "speaking points".
Here is a start:
"I write this article for the same reason I wrote my book: to tell the American people, and especially American Jews, that Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.
I write about what the first prime minister of Israel called "cruel Zionism." I write about it because I was part of it."
Naeim Giladi
Naeim Giladi is an Iraqi Jew who lived in Baghdad and as a youth joined the Zionist underground. He spent some time in Iraqi jails and managed to escape and found his way to Israel. While he was there he came to realize what the Zionist project was about. I suggest that you read some of what he wrote.
Of course it is always always the "other" who is responsible for their misery and destitution. It is always the "other" who is at fault. Nothing the Zionists and colonialists have done is responsible for the destruction of a country, the dismemberment of society and the tearing apart of families.
Yes of course it is the "Arab leadership" that wanted to transform Palestine into a "Jewish State". Yes of course it is the "Arab lesdership" which razed 350-400 villages to the ground and expelled 750,000 Palestinians from their homes. Yes of course it was the "Arab leadership" which prevented the refugees from regaining their homes (many of which were completely erased from existence). Yes of course it is the rape victim who is responsible for her raping.
You claim to be a Christian and a believer in God. Is this the compassion that Jesus taught? Is this the love that he preached?
Is this the justice that he tried to spread?
I have a suspicion that you are nothing but hate-filled individual who is too happy to justify the murder of anyone who does not belong to the "tribe".
the PA does not represent more that a fraction of the Palestinians (about half of the Palestinians--those outside the WB and Gaza--have been excluded from participating in elections and therefore has serious issues of legitimacy. In addition, the refusal to accept the election results of 2006 by the PA further casts a shadow as to whom does the PA truly represents.
What does the unilateral declaration of statehood really achieve? Would it stop Israel from its daily incursions? Would it stop Israel from continuing its settlement expansion and the ethnic cleansing of East Jerusalem? Would any of the present situation change just because Abbas and Fayyad decide to declare a state--I really don't know why they want a state, after all they have given themselves the titles of "president" and "prime minister"!!!!
In the next 18 months I am afraid to say that nothing tangible will happen to change the situation for the Palestinians. Israel will keep doing what it does because it has the full backing of the US despite the wrinkles. More facts on the ground will be established, more settlements will be expanded and new ones will established and things will continue as they are now or become even worse.
Israel could care less about what Abbas and Fayyad threaten to do. Nothing scares Israel more than the Palestinians beginning to call for equal rights within the borders of a single secular and democratic state for the benefit of both Israelis and Palestinians. This demand and sincerely pursuing this as a strategic goal is the real threat to Israel. The demand and call for a single democratic state which guarantees full equality for all its citizens is the only possible response to the exclusivist nature of the Zionist state.
It is amazing that you can't even believe what you are reading or hearing unless it fits what you think the speaker should be saying!!!!!
What is it that is so confusing in what Rivlin stated that could lead to a different interpretation? The Palestinians in the West Bank and Jerusalem (as well as Gaza) are not Isareli citizens and he mentions specifically the West Bank. So Mr. mind reader can you tell what is so ambiguous in the statement? Or is this another example of your standard obfuscation?
Many Israelis have made statements in favor of the one state and not all of them left leaning. Daniel Gavron, Meron Benvenisti come immediately to mind.
The mantra has been that "the Two State Solution" is the realistic approach while the OSS is the idealist one. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The reality is that a One State already exists albeit with one group being brutally oppressed by another. A change in the structure of power would remedy this situation.
The two state solution has been rendered an impossibility by the poicies of settelements pursued by Israel since 1967. This policy has made it impossible for a sovereign Palestinian state to exist or to function in a normal manner. Anyone with a reasonable critical ability can see that. I am not entirely surprised to see others among the Isreli "elites" to come to this conclusion. The alternative would be to either continue the occupation and we all have seen how successful that has been so far or to another round of massive ethnic cleansing which is not quite possible given the level of scrutiny this part of the world has gained over the last decades. Either Israel opts to become a democratic state for all or continue its march on tyhe road of Apartheid with the inevitable end that leads to.
Walid, I do not write those figures that you mention as Jew-haters--I don't know where you got this idea from frankly. They may have a disagreement with the yahoo government but to make the quantum leap from this to saying that we can assume that all of sudden those veterans of pro-Zionist US policy have transformed into critics of Israeli policy in general is naive.
Come on. Give me a f***ing break!!!! Now Rahm is anti-Israel!!!!!!!!
If he is what do you call Anti-Zionist Jews?
Huh?????????????
I am not sure what have you been listening to or who you have been talking to. Any critique that has been uttered by the American guardians of empire are nothing but smoke screen. There is no "shift" in policies nor there is an awakening of conscience or concern for the rule of law. What there is is simply tactical manoeuvring without any substantial change in policy or interests.
The two state solution means that Palestinians who have lost property to what would be the "Jewish State" would have their rights negated if the "Jewish State" denies them the right to regain their property--a basic human right (not self-determination). At the same time and from a humanistic view it would be unacceptable to ask Israelis who have known no other home to leave and go somewhere else. That is why I believe a Single Secular Democratic state is the only viable solution. To be honest with you I do not see any advantage to the Two State solution--which I see as the legitimization of the infringement on Palestinian right to self determination.
"The problem with the idea of “a people’s right to self-determination” is that it legitimises Zionism, too. "
I wouldn't use the word legitimize because the principle of self determination does not mean invading another people. I do have a problem with the idea of self-determination though because it is based on ideas of nationalism and I believe that nationalism inevitably leads to aggression and often worse.
However, if we keep in mind the corollary to the principle of self-determination which is that in the exercise of this right we cannot infringe on the right of others to the same then it is possible that self-determination could lead to cooperation instead.
zamaaz, it is obvious that you have no f***ing clue about what you are talking about. Self determination means that people (not governments) have the right to decide their destiny on their own without interference and coercion from other people. It is implicitly understood and explicitly stated in various international rulings that the exercise of a people's right to self determination should not infringe on the right of another people to the same.
May I suggest that you stick to your opium (reading your bible that is) and do not mix myths with historical reality.
WJ,
You are correct in stating that Mizrahi vote tends to be more toward the right. There are several complex reasons for this phenomenon which find their roots in the history of the Mizrahim in Israel. The Labor or so called socialists in Israeli politics were dominated by European (Ashkenazi) elite with the typical condescending colonialist European attitude toward non-westerners. The Mizrahim were marginalized and excluded from power and were seen only as numbers in the battle to achieve the establishment of the "Jewish State" with all power being in the hands of the Ashkenazi elite. This in turn pushed many of the Mizrahim toward the opposition or the"right" (many Communist Iraqi Jews remained committed to their ideas but did not join the Labor socialists).
The phenomenon of victims of abuse and of persecution becoming abusers and persecutors is well known and documented. Being fed nationalist mythology and being brainwashed throughout the school years as well as by the religious establishment, the persecuted Mizrahim overcorrect and become themselves persecutors (to show and affirm loyalty maybe?--I am not a sociologist nor a psychologist). This pattern can be observed in many such instances.
A similar phenomenon exists in the US with certain segments of the population voting for either Republican or Democrat because of historical positions of either party with regards to slavery not necessarily because of ideological commitment or current policies. I do question the assertion that the Mizrahim vote Likud because of its "realism" toward the "Peace Process". I think the reason is because of how the Mizrahim have been treated by Labor and possibly religious reasons (I am not quite sure about this religious angle and need to do more research).
Oops!!! The statement "those peoples who are “western” or who have not adopted "
should read "those peoples who are not "western" ...."
WJ
The word Arab in Israel is a dirty word and not only relative to the Palestinians. Have you seen the film "Forget Baghdad"? It is about Iraqi Jews. In the movie the children of one of them mocks his father because he speaks Hebrew "Like an Arab". The now famous comment of Rahm Emanuel's father "he is not going to mop the floor of the White House... what do you think he is an Arab?" is also characteristic of how the Arabs are viewed by most Israelis and Zionists. It couldn't be any other way because it it would be much harder to depict the Palestinian Arabs as enemy and undeserving of self rule, self-governance and self-determination if they were equal.
Your characterization of Mizrahi Jews derives from this view of the Arab which is an extension of the colonialist western view of all of those peoples who are "western" or who have not adopted western ideas and ideals as barbarian and backward. This is what Zionism is: an extension of European settler colonialism with the same tendency and the same attitude toward indigenous peoples and particularly the Palestinian Arabs (but also all Arabs) as other European colonialists.
Mizrahis have always been viewed by Ashkenazis as backward and frankly an embarrassment but a necessary one. An effort to "de-Arabize" them was carried out since day one and especially targeting school children to put pressure on their parents to reject their Arabic culture and heritage and adopt and appropriate the Ashkenazi ones including the myths of age old persecution and pogroms. Mizrahis were a little better than non-Jewish Arabs simply because they were Jews. I remember the Black Panthers in Jerusalem in the 70s and their agitation and demand for equality. I have seen the ghettos where they lived.
In the US integration was achieved because there is a constitution which stipulates the equality of citizenship, a principle which does not exist in Israel which is continuously described as a "Jewish State". This designation by itself is discrimination against non-Jews who can never hope to achieve full equality so long as this characterization of Israel continues.
marc b. I think you left something out: there is no mention of Hamas and how it just wants to annihilate Israel with its Qassam rockets. I am sure that Mr. Witty in his crystal clear and infallible logic found a way to squeeze it in but unfortunately got left out :)))
Why ban? He provides some real comic relief with his idiotic crap. He obviously have no clue of what he is talking about but regurgitates stuff he heard and makes a great mix of things into one big salad of nonsense.
"in their ancestoral homeland. "
When does history start or end in your opinion? How come it is the ancestral home of the Jews and not the home of those who live there?
I wish that you actually read and think about what you write because what you write above is nothing more that just a bunch of contradictory nonsense. You claim to be against robbing of indigenous peoples yet in the same breath you support the robbing of Palestine to establish a Jewish State because at soe point in history Jews lived there. Arabs occupied Spain for 800 years. Does that make Spain the ancestral home of the Arabs? Think about what write if you don't want to look like and idiot.
Wow. Talk about contradictions and distortions of logic.
First, Einstein was a scientist and his pursuit of science and discovery was not intended to develop weapons of mass destruction. The fact that a government and its military seized upon his discoveries and theories to develop a weapon cannot be blamed on Einstein who was a pacifist and declared that he would not participate in war. Your distorted logic can also lead to blaming Newton for everything that is bad because of his discovery of the laws of gravity which helps in developing all sorts of weapons. Get your logic straight.
I find it very interesting that someone like you calling the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki a crime against humanity--which I unequivocally agree with--condones the massacre of innocent Palestinians by the Zionist State and finds justifications for that. Why, I might ask, is it a crime to kill innocent Japanese and is not a crime to kill innocent Palestinians? Can I conclude that this is motivated by racism and bigotry? You either condemn all massacres of innocent civilians based on principle or pick and choose which ones deserve to die and which whose killing is a crime based on racist and bigoted notions just like those which white supremacists adopt.
I don't know who you are and I don't care what skin color or religion or gender you might be. I do care however, about what you write and what you express through your words and all I have to say with regards to this is that you have a serious deficiency of knowledge. So please spare us the lectures about humanity and racism when you yourself justify inhumanity and a condone racism.
Oops. Here is a link to a video on YouTube
link to youtube.com
Yep he would certainly be labeled as "self hating Jew". He would be a One Stater because he was a committed socialist and anti-nationalist.
Einstein was an intelligent human being unlike some around here !! Here is what he said a propos "The Jewish State"
"I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. …the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power….I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain – especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks…"
-- Einstein speech in New York, 1938.
Shmuel,
Thank YOU. It is always resfreshing and a pleasure to read your comments. They are thoughtful, clear and level-headed. Thanks.
Hi Mooser,
I have been reading this blog for a little while and have no illusions where Yonira is coming from. Will he actually listen to me? Of course not just like Witty they are here to make a point and not to learn. But hey I can always try :))
Yonira baby,
I repeat what I have already said before before you jump oh your high horses and go wagging your fictitious sword take the time to actually read what others write and think about them a little bit. Show me where I said or anyone said that the one state has to happen now and immediately. What do think we are born yesterday with no experience? What we One Staters are talking about is the fact that a solution --in the long run--must address the real causes of the conflict and the grievances and claims of both parties. The two state idea does not address the essential issues and does not go to the roots of the conflict. Combined with the current reality on the ground, this makes the TSS a postponement of conflict not its resolution. The only solution is the OSS. How does that happen is matter of debate and discussion.
I have made a conscious attempt not to respond to you Mr. Witty. I just wanted to point out to you that you need to read beyond the first sentence. When you show a propensity to have an open mind and engage in a meaningful and intellectual dialog then I will answer you. However, to date you have shown nothing of the sort and therefore I do not think I will waste my time with you.
Thank you WJ. Communication is extremely important I agree. However, communication is not only speaking it is also listening with an open and receptive mind.
I know that most Israelis reject the One State idea. A lot of Palestinians do too. Those of us in the One State movement (and it is not entirely homogeneous) have to talk and convince both. In many of the discussions I had with Jews in the US (where I currently live) or Israelis I found that the underlying reason for rejecting the One State idea is fear. It is a fear that has been largely maintained and cultivated by the Zionist political establishment. Yes given the history of Jewish persecution in Europe I can certainly understand.
However, one question I keep asking myself is when can we collectively let go of our fears? Our lives as human beings is full of risks at every moment of our lives we assume all sorts of risks. If we allow our fears takle over and dictate our lives then we cannot survive. I am not saying that we should ignore the fears but what I am saying is that while acknowledging them we can take precautions to minimize the effects or the chances of occurance. That is what we do everytime we cross the street or go behind the wheel to drive a car. Collectively however, we seem to develop herd mentality and stop making good decisions and stop our critical thinking because we have been brainwashed by the political establishment and its social institutions to think a certain way which only benefits them not us.
Of course in any society there are those who cannot accept differences and those who want to impose their beliefs on everyone else through coersion and force. Yes there are Palestinians who would not and do not accept the idea of a secular democratic state. Some are motivated by biogotry and racism others because they see Israelis as those who have been responsible for their misery, lose, persecution and daily humiliation. They have not known anything different. Does this mean that things will always be that way? Can people learn and adapt to changes or do we continue to think the same way from cradle to grave generation after generation? The dynamics of society are too complex and are affected by many factors which must all be considered as the dialectical generator of progress. Society and people change and they respond to changes in their environment as well as they affect that change.
We are all imperfect and that is why we are human beings not gods. Being aware of our imerfections, prejudices and shortcomings is essential to being able to change and learn--that is part of the communication process (communication with oneself).
Thank you.
"As I have explained before, two state, federation, one state, all at once or in stages, can all be perfectly reasonable solutions – on condition that the principle of equality is respected. A first-stage two-state arrangement that merely offers Palestinians grudging, humiliating, take-it-or-leave-it concessions will never progress to higher levels of co-existence but will, in all likelihood, simply lead to further and greater violence. "
I agree. The struggle for One State is in fact a struggle for the recognition of the equal humanity of both Israelis and Palestinians. It is a call for the transcendence of artificial divisions which are in fact fabricated myths with no roots in reality.
WJ, there are more pressing issues to think about other than a flag or an anthem. One Staters who believe in the fundamental equality of all with complete disregard to ethnicity, religion, national origin or gender do not think in terms of flags or national anthems. Those are anathema to the idea of transcending the narrow ways human beings are defined. After all even at the individual level we all have different and multiple identities.
We want to provoke thought in those who oppose the idea of one state not with flags and anthems but with the consideration of the equal humanity of all. We do not care about names, flags and anthems that is what we are trying to tell you.
"but currently the flag proposed by the one state movement seems to be the Palestinian flag"
Could you please provide evidence to that statement? I have been active in the One State movement since before it has gained the momentum in the last few years and never have I met one in this movement who proposed the Palestinian flag as being the flag of the movement. In fact most who are active in this movement are not-nationalists and many in fact are anti-nationalists where flags, the national ones are symbols of oppression and transgression. Having said that, the Palestinian flag has gained another meaning other than being an expression of Palestinian national identity. It has become the symbol of anti-zionist and anti-colonial struggle and that is why you see it raised everywhere such struggle manifests itself. For us Palestinians the Israeli flag has one meaning and one meaning only: it is a symbol of settler-colonialism, of occupation, and of Apartheid that is what the Zionist State is about and that is what its flag means.
This is completely off topic. Today I have received email from Mazin Qumsiyeh, who happens to be in the the US for a visit. Last night Israeli soldiers went to his house in Bethlehem (I believe) looking for him. This is one more piece of evidence of a "new" Israeli policy to "crack down" on the leaders of non-violent resistance to Israeli Apartheid. Mazin, as many here know, is not the first. Many non-violent activists were arrested in Bil'in and Ni'lin over the past year. What this indicates is that the Zionist state has reached a level of complete bankruptcy and its extreme and excessive paranoia is getting much worse.
This is completely off topic. Today I have received email from Mazin Qumsiyeh, who happens to be in the the US for a visit. Last night Israeli soldiers went to his house in Bethlehem (I believe) looking for him. This is one more piece of evidence of a "new" Israeli policy to "crack down" on the leaders of non-violent resistance to Israeli Apartheid. Mazin, as many here know, is not the first. Many non-violent activists were arrested in Bil'in and Ni'lin over the past year. What this indicates is that the Zionist state has reached a level of complete bankruptcy and its extreme and excessive paranoia is getting much worse.
Yonira maybe you should learn how to read. I suggest to reread what I wrote instead of reading what you think I wrote.
Here's the link to Kramer's site link to martinkramer.org
He claims smear on the part of e.i. However, reading his quote confirms the call for limiting the Palestinian population growth in Gaza. Too bad for Kramer: some 70 years ago in Germany would have been the perfect time and place for his ideas.
Yonira, do you think that "uncivilized" is better than savages? Like Cliff already pointed out to you, uncivilized is in the same category as savages. It clearly shows your colonial supremacist mindset. Keep it coming yonira and tell us all here who you really are.
yonira, you're not only a racist bigot pig but a vulgar one too. Keep revealing the truth about who you really are--like many of your Zionist fascist ilk.
You talk about hate and all I have to say go take a good look in the mirror and you will certainly see one hater looking back at you.
I agree. Advocates and apologists for genocide, ethnic cleansing and Apartheid should not have the right to spread their hate speech. Fascists should be shut out not allowed to speak.
the previous reply was addressed to Yonira in case there was any doubt.
Thank you for confirming that you are nothing better than a bigot and racist.
Do you think that everybody has the same pea-size brain as you do? Or do you think that everyone is a racist as you are?
I am so glad that Mr. Messiah "recognizes" Palestinian grievances!!!! That does a lot of good. especially knowing that in the mean time, his administration is helping in tightening the siege of Gaza so that Palestinian grievances be further "recognized"!!!!
Unlike many of the so called "left" in the US I am glad to say that I saw through the smoke screen and did not vote for the lesser of the two evils--I voted for Cynthia McKinney. I wish that people get hold of their fear and vote their conscience not out of fear. What would it take to realize that there is in fact little difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are both at the service of the corporations and the highest bidder.
LOL. This is very good Donald.
Hebrew "am" is the same or similar to the Arabic "umma"--I am not a linguist but I think that the two words share the same root. The words are often translated as nation. However, as with any word, the meaning today is not the same as it was 2000 years ago.
Today, the word nation is generally endowed with political meaning as well as social meaning and generally it conjures ideas of state as in the nation state. Am or umma as used then are probably more accurately translated as community.
In all cases it does not matter whether Jews or any other community thinks of themselves as a nation or not. What is important is the relationship vis-a-vis other communities or nations.
Oh I am so sorry that you think this was a slur. I thought that it would be a badge of honor. As for substantive argument I am sorry again there was nothing substantive to argue with unless you think that your ranting is actually making some intelligent argument and sense.
"Or is this in fact just one more crisis for your system to snake its way through" Yesterday I heard an interview on the BBC with some Republican politician from Florida who suggested that Haiti should become a "UN protectorate". The "Shock Doctrine" at work.
Thank you VR. I absolutely agree with everything you wrote. Very well said.
And you are literate? Show me one post where anyone wrote that the earthquake was America's fault. I suppose in your mind literacy means putting words in people's mouths?
looky here we have a fan of Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaugh. Great fiction!!!
Pathetic that's all that comes to mind reading what you wrote Duscany. Show a little bit of humanity even if you don't know your history.
" Is it wrong for Haitians to live as they wish?"
A good question but I find the implication pathetic. No it is not wrong for Haitians to live as they wish. What many have been trying to say is that they have not been allowed to do it.
Why I find the implications pathetic? Because nobody chooses to live in poverty. Nobody chooses to live hungry.
It never ceases to amaze me how history seems always to begin with "wiping out" the Jews. How long have Jews lived in Hebron and Jerusalem and other places in Palestine BEFORE the Zionists came? How were those PALESTINIAN JEWS treated BEFORE the Zionist project of transforming Palestine into a "Jewish State". You want to talk history go learn it first and not only the selective parts which fit your propaganda machine. But I suppose your aim is not really knowledge but obfuscation and spewing lies and half truths.