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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Fred, to understand better how an armored bulldozer is "weaponized", you shud read Jimmy Carter - who coined the term "defensive tunnels" that Palestinian dug across the border with Israel to kidnap soldiers. You may also want to reread "1984".
Mr. Barghouti,
What is the difference between the ultimate goals of the Palestinian "non-violent" and "violent" movements?
@tree, your argumentation is feeble. The fuel that Israel "restricts" the import of, is for use mostly if not all for the production of electricity. So what is the point to restrict it on one hand and supply electricity on the other hand? And why dont you (and most other commenters here) dont blame Egypt - after all, it can supply the "Zionist-restricted" fuel to the brothers in Gaza?
@Talkback "but Israel restricts the import of fuel as a punitive measure"
Proof?
"Purchased from Israel: 120 MW (33,3%)" So Israel "restricts" with one hand, but sells with the other, these kinky Zionists...
Yes, Annie, how much of Israel's resources (let's say as a percent of GDP, cos it gives an idea on how much Israel is "dependent" on anyting) comes from "occupied palestine"?
And how do you defined "occupied palestine", tough pls answer the first question first?
"For those who claim that Gaza is not occupied."
So if one party does not transfer a resourse to another, than the former is considered as occupying the latter?
And surely, you mean "occupied" by Egypt, after all, Egypt can easily connect Gaza to its grid.
@Hostage,
are these "thugs" Jews? Is Soros also a "vastly wealthy thug"?
@pablemont: "in America, a group of vastly wealthy thugs who are about as powerful as people ever get these days and who hold the entire American political class hostage/prisoner"
Can you say who exactly these "wealthy thugs" are, not just innuendoes?
No, Freddie, Montagu was doing true "hardtalk" and at one point she caught Finkelstein out, look at the YouTube clip at 09:00 onwards - he said that Israel Lobby in the US are "paid agents of a foreign country"...bad (and mad) thing to do. It wud work with Steven Sakur's "Softtalk" but not with Montagu. She grills Noam for that, and for good reason - if you want to appear righteous, dont make false and "wishful" statements - or you will be caught out.
@Annie, i understand your "little" confusion. I am sorry that I can not find the article about PA demilising illegal structures, but I did bring to your attention a clear and undisputed (it came from palestinian sources) example where Arabs demolish Arab homes, but "i guess i am a little bit confused" that there was no outcry on this blog about any of such operations - or do you want to dispute that Arabs ever demolish Arab houses in PA and Hamas?
Well, lets begin here
link to pchrgaza.org
(or search for "PCHR Is Concerned over Death of Police Officer and Injuries of Two Others by Gunmen While Enforcing Court Ruling"
- admit that I have no time to look for statistics, but the indignation when palestinians demolish homes is absent (although, the article does mention the true background). And there is no one calling for the boycotting of the bulldozer manufacturer, ey?
No, bumblebye, The "army is NOT the 'law', it is the Israeli court. YOu may not agree with the court but not to mention the other side's position reveals this site's bias. what is the point of indignant cries of unfairness and opression if the site itself is clearly biased?
Why? Why? Why?
Really, why? Aha, "because we are the army!"
Or perhaps the farm was built illegally? And that all instances of court were exhausted, transparently (even if u dont agree)? And the Palsetinian Aythority in the West Bank demolishes many more structures for illegal buidling than Israel does, but that is not "inhumane".
Yeah, why is that?
@Talkback - Import:
“… 40% of need, as measured against figures from 2005.”
So, it was better during the occupation? Perhaps you will look for a reason. Let's do it together, let's find a parameter that statistically explains imports and exports from Gaza? How about we fit a curve based on rocket firing and other acts of war from Gaza on Israeli civilian communities. Wow, the fit is statistically significant and probably explains the changes almost perfectly.
And what exactly is the ethno-stratocastery that you mention?
@Shingo, the blockade of Gaza, includes Israel, or just Egypt?
@Shingo, do I understand that you agree that firing rockets into Israeli communities is not legitimate? After all, you say above that "they are clearly not self defence". Or is it a "non-sequitur"?
@Shingo "Perventive wars are not legitimate" - does it include wars against Israel? Or is it that fring "firecrackers" on Jewish communities is "self defence"?
@Woody - "If I were born in Palestine, I would move to whatever country my ancestors immigrated from a generation or two ago"
And how wud you do that? Woody, this your comment shows that you probably live in some cosy Western democracy with open borders (Shengen, etc) and apply the same logic to your views. But outside the state of Israel, where Palestinians are second class citizens (yes), in the rest of the Middle East, Palestinians are not citizens at all, how exactly would you "move" to let's say Syria or Lebanon, where you, as a Palestinian of course, would not be allowed to own land (outside of the "refugee camp") and hope that you are not a doctor, a lawyer etc. cos Palestinians are not allowed these professions, except in Apartheid Israel.
@American, I asked Woody about HIS family, not "from an Israeli". If you be so kind as to reveal your thoughts, pls answer too, about YOUR family, yes/no pls.
@Shingo,
your barbaric response about Fogel family only gives fuel to Israeli extremists.
You shud be ashamed of yourself for inciting hatred rather than promoting peace. But perhaps peace is not what you want, you cudnt care less about Palestinians in general nor Samouni family in particular. What you really after is Israel vanquished, isnt it?
Woody, question to you: would you have your family live under a possiblility to be "fireracked" by these "firecrackers" from Gaza? Yes/no answer wud suffice.
@Shmuel: "order to uproot trees on privately-owned Palestinian agricultural land, and how it fits into ongoing efforts to reduce the Palestinian presence in Area C " - is that what was on the order? Or that is what yoy just state cos it fits your narrative. Answering to all those who are trying to ingnore the facts (tree, Chaos), I keep asking questions abut facts:
1. What was the official reason for the order?
2. Is the uprooting a big one, or a small one? I mean, those who had to uproot the trees, how many trees they've got letf? When have they planted the trees? Who invested in the planting, ie is it really a private enterprise, or, it is "helped" by this organisaion or other?
3. Was there a legal challenge to the order? Hey, just think about, what a field-day you guys can have here on the blog if you can show that there was no due process or that the process was tainted - it shud be easy, shudnt it, after all, it is the IOF and the Zionists we are talking about!
So come-on, humiliate me with facts, show me how the Zionists are unfair - answers the above questions.
@Shmuel: "...why bother?"
Because the article does not mention the reason for the order, does not explain the relative size of the order - is it really a big one or a small one relative to what the relevant parties already own and whether there was a legal callenge in courts.
I cant conduct my own research, but I'd guess that if the facts above will be presented, the "order" will look rather less monstrous. But why bother, the "crowd" on this blog isnt interested in facts that do not comply with the "Israel is evil" narrative.
"about 150 young trees"? what about "Amal described them as ancient growth, "1,000 years old," stemming from the Roman period"?
Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics
“1,400 trees by the end of this month. By comparison, this order is 400 more trees than the total number uprooted in all of 2011”.
Is it 1,400 out of 2,000 or 1,400 out of 140,000? Why is there no reference point to judge whether 1,400 is a lot or a little?
Is there anyone on this blogroll (except me and a couple of house-trolls that are kindly allowed to respond) that agrees with "two states for two peoples" solution(however theoretic it is) on 1949 borders?
If yes, then pls state so, if no (as Seafoid above, cynically puts it), then the righteous indignation about Obama's position is insencere.
@Shmuel - so we are NOT “Jewish and democratic like French and democratic”, for whatever it is. We want to live and we want to survive in a sea of murderous theocracies around us - and that, my foe, we will do.
@Shmuel/Iftachel - the above is a meaningless demagogy that is applicable to any democratic state with ethnic majority and minority.
@Shmuel, "In an ethnocratic regime, non-members of the charter ethnic group do not enjoy the same rights as members of the group. "
How does that apply to Israel?
@Shmulik - 2 questions:
1. Define "Ethnocratic Regime" and show me a "non-ethocratic" "regime" anywhere in the world;
2. What wud you rather - (i) live in an ethnocratic regime, able to protest, however imperfectly; or (ii) be shot, raped and tortured?
@Shmuel - Do you know what that word means?Do you know what that word means?Do you know what that word means?Do you know what that word means?
I know one thing - Israel is the only country in the Middle East, where anyone can openly call for its demise and NOT be shot at. This is the essence of pluralism.
The demonstration was probably illegal. If the anarchists feel that they were treated badly, they have all the rights to appeal to courts, including the High Court of Israel, where they often are supported and the State defeated. This is the essence of pluralism.
In 2003, an organisation called "Crisis Resolution" or something, issues a report called "Iran - time to talk". On the cover of the report was a photo of a sinister B-52 releasing dozens of bombs. The report conculded that the best way to resolve the crisis is to talk to Iran because Iranian leaders are rational, etc.
When I emailed them asking for the terms of reference of such report, they went silent...
Just like the talks with Iran, for more than 10 years, Iran is fudging the gullible West, but in my opinion, many Westerners, including of course most of the frequenters of this blog, wish, yearn for Iran to have a nuclear bomb.
"The Israel/Palestine conflict will be resolved when Arab countries kick the U.S. out of the region" is the headline, but surely, what the writer means (and yearns) is "The Israel/ARAB conflict will be resolved when Arab countries kick the THE JEWS out of the region".
So, what do we have here? Al-Dura II? Khulood Badawi III? Actually, "Al-Dura 10,000".
Like so many libels against Israel, first, Israel is slurred first, then mainstream media buries the retraction in small print on page 19.
But this time, the shame is great, not only Israel is not to blame, the slur was to hide troubles in the "peaceful resistance" paradise. If I were Mondoweiss, I wud be strong enough not to try and hide the shame under heeps of convoluted explanations and quotes. But I am not Mondoweiss.
Chant to the rhythm of "From Gaza to Bil'in, ta taa ta taa, ta ta taaa.":
"From Haifa to Jerusalem/Israil's always to blem"
Even if the little girl died as a result of an Israeli attack, isnt it a little bit late (and this is for a "media co-ordinator") to tweet about "Another child" and "Another father" as if it happened yesterday and not in 2006?
You know, eljay,
I actually replied to your response "Today’s Jewish state lesson: It’s OK to be a murderous terrorist as long as you don’t call for murder or brag about it."
It was low-brow and kind of lame, but I decided to answer in the same level:
Today's lesson to mass murderers: It's OK to murder civilians, as long as they are jewish, there will awalys be enough Western useful idiots to find lame excuses for you"
But I guess that the moderator of this blog is biased enough to let the last word to commenters that support their own point of view, and my reply wasnt published. I just wonder, on what ground?
@shingo, unlike Bin Laden, Begin never bragged about, not called for murder of civilians.
@Hostage, so how can you believe Mr. Bishara after the two discrepant statements? In Israel, he said that "there is no Palestinian nation, it was always the south of Greater Syria") and in Qatar, he says "Palestinian people". Perhaps he changed his mind? Oh, I know, on the Israeli TV he was speaking under duress being bullied by the Zionists, with his family tied in the basement under a gun?
@Hostage, there is a Wikipedia entry about Azmi Bishara, the former parlamentarian of Knesset. As anyone who can speak Hebrew will attest, Azmi Bishara denied the existance on a Palestinian "nation" on record as you can yourself see on YouTube (just search youtube for "azmi bishara palestinian nation"), he did it non-chalantly but unambigously, that there cud be no doubt about his position.
Yet when I tried to update Wikipedia entry on him, it was edited countless times by people who are known activists and this relevant point was edited out time after time so that I dropped it, even though ititially a Wikipedia "official" has labelled the deleting edit as "vandalsim". This expression of Bishara is still on the Hebrew entry, by the way.
So please do not rely on Wikipedia for anything controversial, is it not an unbiased medium.
@Blake, can you prove that "they" had been "there" a lot longer than a "majority" of "us"?
I can show you a census by the Ottomans that shows that in 18th century, Jews outnumbered Muslims in Jerusalem. What research can you show?
1-ha'am, Even if someone breaks into my house, I am not allowed to kill him, I am bound by laws to resolve the conflict. your logic suggests that Palestinian Arabs are justified to kill Israeli civilians - yes or no please? Killing civilians is a crime, when this is done for political means, this may amount to a war crime. Do you agree or disagree?
After answering, pls put the two arguments above together, do you suggest that under certain circumstances, it is OK to break laws of war?
ahadha'am,
Hitler openly called and successfully implemented a genocide and there is no denying that, except a negligible (compared to the total world community) idiots, including heads of muslim states. Begin and Israeli leaders are not considered by the world community to commit genocide, as much as you are trying to wish for that.
Talking about "conviction", Hitler was not tried but Hitler's henchmen WERE convicted, so the genocide nd crimes WERE proven in court, unlike the "alleged" crimes of Israeli leaders and soldiers.
ahadha'am, so your "logical prism" justified intentional targetting of civilians under certain circumstances, for example, if the attacker is member of a "disposessed" group, then him killing civilians of the "dispossessor" side will not amount to a war crime? Yes/No answer will suffice.
that Begin murdered anyone is questionable (I say "murdered" as in "unlawful killing with malicious intent") cos he was never convicted in a court of law. Neither have any other people who have their names on Israeli streets. That Shamir was a terrorist is also questionable, but that is not the point.
Annie Robbins, please do not drop charges of "stunning hypocrisy" because the analogy of those terrorists on whose name squares are named in Palestinian Territories is Baruch Goldberg, a person who has murdered civilians with his own hands. Is there a square in Israel named after such a person? Are such persons revered and deified in Israel (officially and by the majority)? So where is the "hypocricy"?
At least "death to Arabs" is not in the Israeli Articles of Establishment (see Hamas Charter, for comparison), and at least a Jewish seller of land to Arabs will not be automatically sentenced to death (see PalAuthority's policy about selling land to Jews).
Oh, and those who do murder Arab civilians dont get official memorials, streets and squares named after them.
I hope that justice will prevail.
To all commenters on this post, especially Annie and Kalithea,
I wonder if you were so distraught when Hamas shot a guided anti-tank missile at a clearly marked school bus in Israel and killed a Jewish boy last year? If yes, please can you point to the posts or responses?
@Shingo - "don't drink beer"...that explains it all.
@Shingo - how did this brutal murderous apartheid dictatorship let you come, protest and leave unmolested? Did you like the beer?
@Shingo. If you visited Israel and you believe that it is "one of the most racist, disturbing and surreal places on earth", you need psychological counselling for not perceiving reality.
I hope that the moderator will not censor this reply if they read the quote above.
@Woody: "grants full rights and equality to all people from the Jordan to the Med".
Why? On what basis?
woody, when you say "you people brought [the missiles] on yourselves", who exactly do you mean by "you people"?
Shingo, you are obviously very angry. I am typing this sincerely without cynicism, have you ever visited Israel? Perhaps you want to read this article by a young Irish film-maker that actually did that. link to independent.ie
@shingo, "Gur" or "Schiff"? I suspect that both are from Ha'aretz, the left-wing rag that has zero credibility (and close to zero circulation) in Israel despite being the favourite source of the Western credulity. So if the analyst you refer to said it, so what? And if you are so confident, surely, it will be easy to point to fresh, recent, explicit and unambigous statements of Israeli leaders, pls show us these, not some obscure ramblings from 30 yrs ago.
20 militants hit, 2 civilians (however unfortunate), what "doctrine" are you talking about? Pls bring any research about urban warfare and show that this ratio is anything but miraculous. What makes you angry is that Israel's mortal enemies were dealt a blow while cowardly targetting our civilians from among their own.
Based on the latest bout of violence, if you claim that Israel is specifically targetting civilians, then you are either blind or insincere.
@Shingo - 1978, you must have stayed there...
@Shingo, even WWII weapons kill and maim. The difference between Israel and Palestinian Arabs is that the intention. Israel targets "militants" (20 out of 22 killed in the recent violence) and Palestinians target civilians.
And by the way, can you prove that the recent bombings were using 1,000 pounds bombs, as you casually drop (no pun intended)?
OK Shingo, so you do dispute that Palestinians are firing Grad (BM-21) standard military rockets made in a foreign factories?
How about Google-translating this site: link to paltoday.ps
from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Or you will want more proof?
Can you prove that the rockets are "homemade" and not in a factory?
@Shingo
"Homemade" Kassam rockets will not reach Be'er Sheva, 40 kms from Gaza border. I don't have time to show it on Palestinian websites, but do you dispute that fact?
"homemade"? Since when is Grad (БМ-21 "Град"), a Soviet truck-mounted 122 mm multiple rocket launcher, BM stands for boyevaya mashina, ‘combat vehicle’, 20kg of weapons grade explosive warhead) "homemade"?
"Whose is bigger"? Gideon Levy's of course, siliness or credulity, that is.
Gideon Levy is the one that called Assad "a man of peace" as late as 2010.
It wasnt me, it was the headline of this article.
So only the "settlers" are "colonists". Man! (sorry, Person!) you are a Zionist, you mean that the rest 5 million are not?
In a comical article in NYT, I think, the PLO guy in the US tried to respond to the facts in the famous "invented people" interview of Newt. Most of the facts can not be disputed.
The guy yakked in pathos about how Palestinians were ruled by others through the ages, meaning for thousands of years, but the most farcical statement was "My city, Jericho is 10,000 years old". I am burning to ask him the following question: What was the contribution of the Palestinians, their culture, their architecture, their consruction to...Jericho? Oh yea, the casino!
@stratightline: "irony" is a privilege of those not in danger of "itbakh".
@MLE - how is "the story of the chosen people" relevant to our topic (which is, BTW: "Israel is the perpetrator of the largest injustice in the world ever. Always was, allways will be. Discuss.").
@MLE - "I condem all violence that occurs on Israeli civilians with Israel, but in my opinion military and settlers are fair game."
Do you realise that you are on the far-right of the map for frequenters of this blog's comments? You are a Zionist, implying that Israeli civilians (within the "green line") are NOT settlers.
I am surprised that no one here noticed this conversion of you.
@MLE,
so, you "want to move right next door" to me? You imply that you are an Arab, so if you want to move next to me, Israeli system will uphold your right to live anywhere in Israel, and it will be eventualy successful.
I wonder what will happen if I will want to rent a house in Bak'a el-Rarbiye, not to mention, Bethleham or Ramallah.
@Shmuel,
that "reunification" is a basic "human right" is debatable. That right to life is a basic "human right" is undebatable. If you, Smulik, what to commit suicide it's your choice, but sane Israelis don't and the high court tilts to sanity, finally.
@pjdude:
immigration to another country is not a "basic human right"
@straightline - "only the paranoid survive". this is a saying by Andy Grove, Intel's legendary chief, when talking about the corporate markets, do you suggest otherwise for the Middle East?
Oh, and by the way, here is, for your convenience a post from this very discussion:
"MLE says:
January 12, 2012 at 8:16 pm
Are the kids of an Israeli Palestinian marriage Israeli citizens?? Because I will move to Israel and flood the streets with Arab babies to speed up the demographic threat."
@MLE, sincerely thanks for acknoweldging that the "Jewish people are from Mesopotamia", many locals of this blog will disagree. Also thanks for acknowledging that peoples come and go and are replaced in given territories and that it is natural and happened many times even in the recent past (e.g., displacement (aka as population transfers or exchanges) of Germans from central Europe. Many locals of this blog will disagree (but it will be only in relation to a place that was once called Israel and Judea).
@Chaos: "You know what the progressive world is really waiting for? More buses in Israel where women can sit wherever they like."
Will a change from 99% to 99.9% appease the "progressive world"?
@pnkfloyd, No, I think to make your (pathetic) point, it would have had to have read:
“a law the likes of which do not exist in A democratic state”.
As though an organisation openly calling for the destruction of its country wud have lasted more than a day in "any other" country in the Middle East.
@Midwesterner,
yes, converts become Jewish and are subject to the Law of Return, which by the way shatters the slander of "racism" (Race of a person can not be changed, religion can).
But I suspect that the true nature of ur question is ur yearning for fake converts to flood Israel and then reveal their true colour (so to speak)? Is that what you mean?
Dear Radii, pls share Israel's "own self-destruct date" with everybody. I remember that one of the regulars at this blog once sarcastically quipped that even after 200 yrs, the Crusaders were beaten and driven away (as far as I remember, he mentioned 800 yrs, for some reason) - I thanked him about the analogy, as it gives us a few more decades, at the least! I am sure you enjoy this day, as it is such a shining "moment in history" and see you around at the "self-destruct date", happy waiting!
@Annie, Palestinian Arabs are decendants of Arabian tribes that conquered the land of Israel in 8th-9th centuries, moreover, most of them are descendants of Arabs that immigrated to the land of Israel in late 19th and early 20th century. As such, it is incorrect to say that they are "indigenous people" in the land of Israel.
@Woody, you seem to be pretty sure of yourself. I gather that easily "you could find this quote somewhere in the annals of every dictatorship from the smallest bully-chiefdom to the Nazi state". Any. The progressive world is waiting, Woody.
@Walid,
what exactly isnt democratic in an open and transparent judicial process?
and even Adallah, the organisation openly calling the destruction of a country that is says is oppressive (from within the same country, mind you), even Adallah admits implicitly that Israel is (or at least was) a democracy - read its statement "a law the likes of which do not exist in any democratic state in the world".
@hostage: "The responsible human rights and humanitarian rights treaty monitoring bodies still consider Gaza to be occupied territory under the day to day control of the IDF", but not according to Israeli High Court, is it?
Can't have it both ways, Hostage, can you?
@Hostage: Indeed Article 8 of Geneva convention says "“Protected persons may in no circumstances renounce in part or in entirety the rights". But since Olso Accords, the vast majority of Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not "Protected persons" becasue they ceased to be under military occupation.