-
-
- US official — we went to Israel first 0
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status … 22
- Israel takes 30 dunams of land near Salfit ‘for security … 4
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look … 38
- Rafah march for deteriorating hunger strikers as family appeals for … 0
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza 7
- Iranian talks fail after neocon ‘blitz’ — as Obama dispatches … 28
- Saving Illinois from Senator Kirk 9
-
- BDS victory: South Africa strips Ahava’s ‘made in Israel’ label 713
- Video: Israeli mob demands all African refugees be deported from … 475
- Day after pogroms, Likud MK calls for internment camp for … 427
- Neverending Nakba: Israel breaks lull, attacks Gazan farmers 413
- ‘This is not fair play’: Mahmoud Sarsak’s family demands his … 389
- March of the Flags 345
- Neocons in Washington Post: Military strike on Iran would ‘calm … 323
- Nabi Saleh’s Bassem Tamimi convicted by Israeli courts based on … 293
-
- The Messiah’s Donkey: Settlers fire on Palestinian villagers as the … 235
- Aharon Appelfeld’s rage at the German language (and Arendt’s need … 156
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their … 129
- March of the Flags 127
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism 110
- Feeling the hate in Long Island 97
- Israeli judge to issue verdict in Rachel Corrie case 94
- WaPo’s Walter Pincus says US is ‘going above and beyond … 87
-
Recent Comments
click link to see last 100 comments- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (22)
- traintosiberia: Spain has been allowing ( under pressure) any descendants of the victims of inquisition to settle in...
- Blake: Boy, history won’t be kind on you reprobates. I doubt anybody can be as despicable to you though as you...
- Talkback: Fredblogs: “Frankly if an odd sentence in a cherry picked report, and some obfuscating change of...
- Affirming a Judaism and Jewish identity without Zionism (110)
- Shmuel: You’re right, Hostage. The point I was trying to make was that even the illegal and immoral excuse that...
- Talkback: “The Arab and Muslim armies have marched on Israel on multiple occasions, …” When? Israel...
- Hostage: P.S. a bit of clarification, that should read: “both practices are violations of the same prohibition...
- US to differentiate between ‘personally displaced’ Palestinian refugees and their descendants (129)
- talknic: Fredblogs May 25, 2012 at 7:24 pm “For thousands of years, and even since then for anyone who isn’t...
- Aaron David Miller: After a short ‘peace process,’ look for war with Iran in 2013 (38)
- Rafah’s nicest tunnel: Siege meets surf in Gaza (7)
- Blake: Good comment Avi but I should have entered his whole quote in my comment to put it into perspective:...
- Israel lobby’s favorite senator tries to erase Palestinian refugee status for millions (22)
Our Writers
- Philip Weiss
- Annie Robbins
- Allison Deger
- Alex Kane
- Today in Palestine
- Kate
- Paul Mutter
- Adam Horowitz
Blogroll
The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Talking about human rights I think it will be most illuminating to hear the Islamic jihad's perspective on human rights in general. Assuming that that IJ will achieve its ultimate political goals, what kind of society is it planning to create?
What is the IJ position regarding non-Muslims, terrorism, woman's rights, religious law versus liberal values, abortion, marriage, freedom of speech (for instance, in a IJ dominated society will I be allowed to criticize Mohammad or aspects of Muslim religion?).
If we take the IJ seriously as a political force I think these are important questions that should be explored. I admire adnans personal courage but being that he is essentially a political figure I think his political position should be placed under scrutiny.
Far from it shmuel.
Calling hermon's Arabic name "original" compared to its supposedly un-original Hebrew name is a typical example of why it difficult for me to take levy seriously.
Syria is an artificial construction of post WWI colonialism. Syrian national identity is a non-existent fabrication. In reality Syria is a mishmash of various ethnicities and groups. I find it difficult do understand why levy feels that an alawite minority rule over Golan is more legit then a Jewish minority rule/
Reffering to Gideon levys article, I don’t know what makes Jabal al-Shaykh more original then simply saying "mt. hermon"? Both are names with a very long and respectable pedigree.
Marriage does not confer automatic citizenship in many countries in the world. Especially when it is being used to bring in a hostile population that wants to undermine Israel's Jewish character. Palestinian couples that want to marry always have the option of moving into the west bank – a minor move of several dozen miles within a friendly and supportive Arab environment. This is indeed a minor and very reasonable price to pay for avoiding national suicide.
MHughes,
Despite the sensational way in which it was described by some media there is nothing ground breaking in the discovery that parts of the temple compound where completed after the death of king herod. Josephus flavius clearly states that the building project continued for decades after herod's death, employing a workforce of 18,000 people.
Why do you feel that this minor archeological discovery is of great importance?
phil
Nobody knows who assassinated arlozorof. Dr. zeev tzachor convincingly (in my opinion) shows that the most likable culprits where members of the jewish-palestinian communist party. This will make it a left crime not a right one.
The claim that arlozorofs killing strengthened the right is ludicrous. The killing was most skillfully used by DBG to take over the Zionist federation and eliminate all opposition starting a 50 year long hegemony of MAPAI. Following the killing jabotinsky was actually kicked out of the federation and started his separate revisionist party.
Shmuel,
I don’t understand why you describe sands contention that there was no historical Jewish writing prior to 19 century as "cryptic". A simpler and more accurate description will be that he is just plain wrong.
Yerushalmis book seems to be very interesting. The way he describes and compares various modes of historical memory is definitely fascinating. Yet nothing he writes even remotely supports blakes (or sands) position.
I guess blake doesn’t really understand the issues involved. He is merely copy past. As for sand he seems to be a charlatan.
Blake –
"It’s an established fact there was not a single Jewish historical text written between 1st ce (Josephus Flavius) & early 19th ce (Isaak Markus Jost)"
What you write is fairly ridiculous. As I am writing these words I can think of half a dozen historical writing during the aforementioned period. for example: large parts of Talmud and medrash, eegeret rav shrira gaon, shalshelet hakabala, seder hadorot, shevet yehuda, tzemach david.
Pray tell, how can an established fact ignore all the sources I mentioned?
Annie-
I think it all depends on the way one defines the term zionism.
Of course there where no "Zionists" prior to the late 19 century since the term was only invented then. However once you examine some of the basic ideas of Zionism you realize that they were always part and parcel of jewish identity. Thus before the first secular Zionist stepped on the land of Israel orthodox charedi jews were already involved in establishing new communities (mea shearim, petach tikva. Rosh pina, mazkeret batya), Engaging in agriculture and attempting to make Israel once more a viable country fo jews, all as part of the commandment of "yishuv haretz" – settling the land [of Israel].
Latter on many of these same chareidi jews became fierce opponents of Zionism because of Zionism's strong secular streak and because of disagreement with the methods and values espoused by Zionism not because of a denial the basic Jewish connection to the land of Israel or the dream of rebuilding it.
Following the common criticism about the supposed Israeli ignorance of Islamic period archeology I am faintly disappointed to see that the Palestinian attitude is no better.
The visitor is brought over to see khirbat el mafjar ("hishams palace"), ruins from the early Islamic period, but it seems that nowhere is there mention of Jericho's rich Jewish past: the hashmonian winter palace complex, the earliest Synagogue found in Israel, the Shalom Al Yisrael Synagogue, and the Hebrew written documents discovered in nearby ketef jericho indicative of the robust jewish presence in the area even after the bar kochba war and into 6-7 century.
Similar problems in arab sector. Wonder why that does not get the same attention. media conspiracy?
link to ynet.co.il
hostage-
what is it you have with quoting only those sources that support your opinion. Didn't you see the rest of the Talmudic discussion. I thought your all for the minorities?
Hostage-
Let's be a little more accurate. SOME scholars think that SOME of the descriptions of the tanach are wrong. That’s a far cry then the claim that the Jewish connection to eretz yisrael is "ahistoricle"
Yes you have finkelstein and Kenyon and then you have a whole bunch of scholars such as keneth kitchen, james hoffmeir, anson rainy, William dever, abraham malamet and amichai mazar who consider the biblical description to be a more or less reasonable portrayal of ancient jewish history. Why do you prefer kenyon's theory over kitchen's? (after all both are british!)
To me it seems that finkelstein actually strengthens the jewish connection to eretz yisrael since according to his theory the ancient Israelis are not foreigners invading from Egypt (as per tanach) but part of the indigenous population. Difficult to see how this strengthens the claim that jewish connection to Israel is "ahistoricle".
Tanaka-
So because some Zionists make the mistake of conflating history with current day politics you are making the identical but opposite mistake of bending history to fit your current day political position?
what stele are you reffering to?
why is eretz yisrael more anachronistic then palestine or cnaan?
Your attitude puzzles me. You seem to be terribly concerned about my supposed erasure of arabs and "proto arabs" and yet you insist on erasing the jewish connection to the land calling it "ahistorical".
Sure enough, hostage.
The Hebrew patriarchs where indeed transhumant nomads with a lifestyle probably quit similar to one of Arab nomads. But that was well before the timeframe we are discussing her – around 18-20 century BCE.
(as an aside: i think you got the part of about the patriarchs visiting Damascus and Lebanon wrong, but that’s beside the point).
pjdud-
i stand corrected.
why do you acuse me of "lack of caring about facts"?
hostage
Yes indeed. And I have already mentioned the presence of the nabati (authors of that inscription) who established a trade kingdom centered in petra (to the south of trans-Jordanian Israel) with series of six caravan stations thru the negev hinterland. The nabati are well known but ultimately hade a peripheral presence in eretz yisrael.
I repeat: transient Arab elements have been floating around the outskirts of Israel for millennia. No argument about that. But to find any permanent arab presence in the country proper you have to go all the way to 7 century CE.
Annie-
Let me make this clear. Just because a particular area has a jewish name does not mean it must be part of the modern day state of Israel. It is hostage who conflated the historical with the political. As for me – I can affirm the historical jewish connection to Judea and samaria will denying any political significance to that fact.
By pointing out that these terms appear in UN documents I was simply showing that they were not artificially invented by Zionist propaganda but do indeed have a recognized historical meaning.
I don’t know which remarks hade been flipped on me debunking my argument.
mhuges-
The book of kings is quit clear about the source for the name shomron: it is because king omri purchased the land from a nice chap by the name of shemer.
Being that the aforementioned omri happened to be ruler of a country known as Israel it is quit understandable that contemporary Israel would use the name shomron to describe the area.
Shomron was the second capital of Israel following tirzah (in eastern trans-jordainian Israel)
mrw-
in what way am i wrong?
annie-
Perhaps you where ofended by my use of the term floating. All that I meant by that was that the arab tribes at the time we are discussing were indeed mostly transhumant/nomadic. That is how they appear in historical records of that time.
Desiring is one thing. historical facts another thing. And political application a third thing. Why cant you keep them separated
There always were some arab elements floating around the vicinity of eretz yisrael. The nabateans of petra had a small flourishing Kingdome down in the south arava and according to the jewish chronicler yosef ben matityahu herods mother was a nabatiean princess. Even sefer berayshit mentions some Arab caravan merchants way back circa 18 century BCE. Yet it is clear that arabs had a negligible role in events relating to eretz yisrael prior to the Arab colonial occupation of 636 CE. It is quit telling that the earliest arab inscription in eretz yisrael dates to the 7 century CE (the earliest Hebrew inscription found to date is the qiyafa/sharayim ostracon going all the way back to 11 century BCE.
Contrary to your claim there are numerous contemporary sources that document what can only be described as a massive human immigration following the arab conquest. In addition to the fighting forces entire families where brought over from Arabia and Persia to colonize the land. Sources also document confiscation of jewish property.
It seems to me you are conflating historical association with contemporary political contingency. Just because a particular landmark has deep Jewish roots does not mean it must become part of medinat yisrael. One can recognize the first without accepting the second. The first is a matter of historical fact the other a matter of practical consideration.
I was always puzzled by the extraordinary lengths some anti-Zionists are willing to go just to deny ANY kind of connection between the Jewish people and eretz yisrael. It is quit normal that jews will address areas by there historical Jewish names.
I am talking about eretz yisrael not medinat yisrael.
Historical facts do not require the blessing of any lord or noble. My impression is that some people over here are troubled by the mere notion that Jews might have any kind of connection whatsoever to eretz yisrael.
Abu malia-
I would say that "jeed el arabi" is a more appropriate name since it is well known fact that Arab colonialism swiftly took over many countries in the seventh century CE. For instance the arab invaders (starting with caliph omar) expropriated the lands of many of the original Jewish inhabitants of eretz yisrael and settled there Arab nomads brought over from the Arabian peninsula.
For instance look up the description of the arab country in UN resolution 181.
link to avalon.law.yale.edu
this post is kind of ridiculous since Judea and Samaria are ancient and well known descriptors of the land. I honestly don’t see what the point here is besides erasing the jewish connection to eretz yisrael.
You got the history wrong.
The Samaritans are thus called because they settled in the area of shomron, not vice versa.
I don’t understand why using the proper geographical terms of yehuda and shomron is more inflammatory then calling el-kuds yerushalayim, calling el-chalil chevron, or calling nablus sh'chem? In fact how is it different than calling Palestine eretz yisrael (or for that matter calling Egypt mitzrayim)?
To me this seems to be another step in erasing the Jewish connection to the land of Israel.
And by the way Judea and samaria are terms that appear on official UN documents even befor the state of Israel was established.
The article you quit was published in 2004. Unfortunately subsequent events proved the author wrong. On 12 July 2006 hizballa carried out a provoked raid on an israeli patrol operating inside israeli territory killing 5 soldiers and hijacking the bodies of 2. it must be pointed out that this was the culmination of a sustained effort by hizballah to attack and hijack IDF soldiers. Based on the authors own logics this can be presented as obvious indication that hizbaala does not "play by the rules"' and neither does iran.
Annie-
We have already seen what repressive regimes are capable of doing once they feel that there backs are to the wall (Syria, libya). A fundamentalist theocratic regime such as iran is inherently unstable. How do you think a nuclear armed fundamentalist regime will react once it is backed in to a corner.? I think that alone is a reason to appose a nuclear iran.
Anie-
Events surrounding deir yasin are indeed controversial. There is no doubt that dozens of Palestinian civilians were killed. However the precise number of casualties and the exact circumstances of the event are open to considerable debate among historians.
The description of Mrs. vester is essentially hearsay based on what arab newspapers described in the time and so it doesn’t add to much to clarifying the matter.
not true. of course arabs can get building permits.
I don’t know where your getting your information from.
Most Israeli jews own there houses as do most israeli arabs. Ther is nothing that prevents arabs from renting homes
As I clearly explain above, shmuels analysis is not accurate.
No insult intended (and some of my best friends happen to be female).
With all respect to yiftachel his is not the only opinion. I have just finished reading a book by dan shiftan presenting I decidedly deferent picture. To me that means that the case for so called arab discrimination is less clear cut then is often presented by partisan publications. Potsherd2 claim that borders of arab towns are "inflexible" is simply not true.
Woody –
Now that’s an interesting idea. Mind telling me how many jews live in the arab towns of Bartea, Um el fahem or arara?
Of course Palestinians have human rights.
Shmuel-
One of the unique characteristics of chareidi politics is that the opinions and personal feeling of the individual chareidi voter don’t really count. Chareidi Knesset members are elected by popular vote but once in they are controlled by rabbinical leadership that is still quit rigid and traditional in its opposition to Zionism. The fact that personally charedim might be quit hawkish is irrelevant. To put it bluntly – its not there opinion that counts but their rabbis opinion, and I have yet to see any significant change in charedi rabbis attitude to Zionism.
The most startling example I can think of was the gaza withdrawal when despite intensive grassroots effort by settlers and chareidi right wingers to sway rabbinic opinion against sharon's move rabbinical authorities remained stubbornly silent to the point of raising the speculation (that didn’t materialize) of a chreidi voters uprising. And that didn’t happen that long ago. So I think despite everything chareidi dovishnes is still alive and kicking.
Very few Israelis (including leftist) consider ramot to be a settlement or part of "east Jerusalem". As I pointed out, all chareidi settlements in the WB are literally borderline, a fact that is not by chance.
Arab towns are not forbidden to expand. If I recall correctly levels of private home ownership in arab sector are actually higher then in jewish sector. I don’t think that young arab couples have trouble finding affordable housing ( that doesn't mean they dont encounter other problems in Israeli society)
Snarkiness aside, you don’t seem to have any real comprehension of the issues involved. To bad you seem to be happy to push away one sector of Israeli society that might actually be supportive of Palestinian compromise.
patm-
Chareidi attitude towards Zionism did not change, however the reality of Israel becoming the largest community of jews in the world can not be ignored. The concern of modern day chareidim is for the wellbeing of the jewish people, not for the existence of the state per se.
As for the chareidi attitude to a 1SS – there currently is no conceptual framework for such a solution and very little reason to assume that it will work. At current time 1SS is considered either an unworkable fantasy or a sure fire recipe for a really nasty civil war so nobody takes it seriously.
Annie-
You keep on confusing ultra-orthodox (chareidim) with NR types. The chareidim are not infiltrating the army for the simple reason that very few of them serve in the army. If you want to be able to contribute something meaningful to the discussion of Israeli society why you don’t bother to actually learn the nuances of Israel's religious community?
Annie –
You have a very confused understanding of chareidi Judaism or of the role of jewish religion in contemporary Israeli society. I don’t blame you for that since the issue IS complicated and even many secular Israelis don’t understand it properly. However as an outsider with a very limited understanding of the inner dynamics of Israeli society I would expect you to show a little more restraint and humility before you barge into topics you know little about. Ignorance doesn’t serve anybody, especially not the Palestinian cause.
Here are some pertinent points:
a. Historically chareidi groups where non-Zionistic (agudat Israel), and in some cases anti-zionistic (neturei karta, satmar). In fact, an early chareidi leader, Dr Jacob Dehan, was assassinated in the early twenties by Zionist zealots because of his efforts to reach a non-zionistic understanding with Palestinian leadership.
b. Until today chareidim typically don’t serve in the army (a source of constant irritation for the general Israeli public, but that is a separate issue) and some chareidi politicians don’t serve as ministers and don’t sit in the Israeli cabinet. Chareidim don’t celebrate Israel's independence day and usually don’t participate in memorial day events, nether do they stand during the customary 2-minute memorial siren.
c. Chareidi leadership is very critical of Zionist ideology, especially of its militarism and veneration of force. Until the late seventies the main chareidi party, agudat Israel, didn’t join the ruling coalition (except for a very short time right in the beginning of the state). Chareidi parties are politically dovish: they voted against annexation of Golan heights in the early 80's, supported talks with the PLO in the late 80's, supported the oslo program in the early 90's. The Israeli withdrawal from gaza strip was achieved with tacit chareidi support.
d. Chareidim are wary about settlement activity in the west bank. Despite a very severe housing problem there are only two chareidi settlements in the west bank – Modin ilit and Beitar ilit – both of them almost exactly on the green line thus providing no obstacle for a future peace agreement with a Palestinian state
e. Extreme settlers and kahana supporters are not chareidi. They are national religious (NR) and that is something completely different.
f. Because of there high birthrate the chareidim suffers from a severe housing problem. The only alternative to building more settlements in the west bank is to settle them inside the green line. Charish is not in any "Palestinian area". It is within Israel proper, just off highway 6, perhaps half an hour away from tel aviv. (the guy claiming charish to be in northern Israel obviously doesn't have a clue about Israel geography). If building a Jewish town in charish is illegitimate then a can't think of anywhere else it might be legitimate. Where do you expect young jewish couples to live? Perhaps in the sea?
Really, annie? How about "anna strelski, mortar teaching instructor"?
are you sure she was also part of the Israeli force stopping the marmara?
Lo and behold! Turns out that the perpetrators of the mavi marmara massacre are exactly the same people involved in operation cast lead. Who would have believed?
Kudos to the great Turkish intelligence for there amazing breakthrough.