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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
whoa! the SWEAT MEME again!
this seems to be part of the dehumanization toolkit...Reminds me of Rudoren's notorious description of Palestinian funeral
Excellent article, Annie! and, on a topic that is being ignored just about everywhere in the mainstream media...as far as I can tell...
here are photos of Palestinians & the Nakba (that would make anyone with a human heart, care) link to jamalkanj.com
Who is Dershowitz to tell other people who they do & don't care about? He sounds insane. But, beyond that, this is a deeply condescending, inaccurate, and aggressive view of much of the world -- and an extraordinarily heartless & dehumanizing view of the Palestinians.
What a strange choice of someone to put on a supposedly serious public panel...
welcome back, Marc!
Why not use "racist", "ethnonationalist", or "religious fundamentalism" instead of "tribal"?
State sponsored racism or ethnonationalism (or religious fundamentalism based on Land) are very different from tribal culture. When you have the bureaucracy, military, police, plus economic expansionism & investment capital policies of a nation-state powering a blood & soil ideology of 'in-groupness' -- it's a totally different thing from tribal identity.
In the US, it is in the context of American Jewish cultural identity that 'tribalism' is thrown around in this careless & demeaning sort of way (who talks about Latvian Americans or Irish Americans as 'tribal'?).
Internationally, it was, of course, standard imperialistic language of British Empire -- see here for an excellent exploration of how that 'framed' non British subjects as primitives who should be dominated by the 'moderns' link to africaaction.org This word is not only deeply stained by racism, but it is just inaccurate -- it doesn't capture the complexities of African identities.
It's also, notoriously, used by some Western corporate media to offer simplistic & false explanations for conflict in Middle East. See Timothy Mitchell's terrific book CARBON DEMOCRACY -- for extended history of how the West was unable to 'see' the secularistic & democratic processes, because of a need to frame politics as 'primitive' conflicts -- justifying the totalitarian regimes friendly & acceptable to Western oil companies. This is a process of fake tribalization in the service of corporate & imperial economic interests -- which he calls "McJihad".
Finally, this usage is offensive to actual indigenous groups in US & elsewhere. Philip Weiss notes that the question of indigenous identities & rights comes up inevitably in I/P debates. link to mondoweiss.net I urge folks on Mondoweiss to consider whether 'tribal' is the best word to use.
Rand = a 'lefty'? and 'building a populist movement'?
Ya'll, I'm sitting here in Kentucky, where Rand (named after Ayn of course) is pushing the dismantling of the most basic govt services (like public health, education, school lunches, TANF, etc.). He is deeply embedded in the same crony networks that feed ol' Mitch. He's against even the thin shreds of environmental protection remaining in the coalfields. This in a state where people actually depend mightily on said public services, because of the deep poverty left by right wing politics.
Kentucky might get a Sen Judd, and, has a Rep. Yarmuth. As well as a past history of real old-style populist politicians. Thanks to austerity, we've got a building crisis in the state that could bloom into some real populism.
Rand is good on drones in US & should be applauded. But, he's mouthing extremely dangerous, right wing nonsense on almost all other points -- while being actually in the hip pocket of the crony networks that are actually feeding from the govt trough like crazy, thanks to the steady flow of govt pork via ol' Mitch & Hal Rogers, etc. Populist, my foot!! That is an insult to the long, real history of Southern populists...Rand is also dumber than his dad (who at least reads) and has far less personal integrity.
it would be interesting to do some investigative reporting on why Auburn Seminary, under it's leader Katherine Henderson, has taken on such a major role in pushing a Zionist agenda in the Presbyterian Church. I note that Auburn does not seem to be a typical Presbyterian seminary. When I think of a Presbyterian seminary, I think of one that prepares ministers & gives theological & other degrees. It's a bit confusing, but Auburn does not seem to give actual degrees. It's really a hodge-podge of 'continuing education' programs. It does not appear to have normal democratic academic governance structures -- e.g., the 'faculty' do not seem to have the usual autonomy or rights of self-governance. In other words, the top administration seems to run things, without checks & balances. I could be wrong -- as I said the website is confusing. It looks to me like they might be pretty insecure financially -- and dependent on special funding. The Presbyterian church usually tries strongly to cultivate democratic self-governance, bottom-up decision-making & financial self-reliance & autonomy. I can't help but wonder whether the outsize role that Rev Henderson & Auburn are playing in anti-BDS, anti-Palestinian rights movements -- might have to do with an unPresbyterian fundraising & leadership style. Could it be that she's on-the-take -- as suggested by the reports on Mondoweiss several years ago re/ what she said at the New Orleans Jewish Federation conference? link to mondoweiss.net It seems that she was the development officer for years at Auburn, before she took over -- in other words, she's not taking the usual scholarly route to leading a seminary. She's certainly going against the currents in her church...and one doesn't see respected Presby scholars or other seminary leaders standing with her...I don't have the background to research her role -- but I wish someone would. She stands out...I could be wrong -- I don't have requisite knowledge -- but it sure looks fishy...
Does anyone have the citation for this Arendt quote? She said different things at different times of her life (she was always growing, changing, responding to emerging issues & different contexts. That was part of what's so amazing about her). It would be helpful to know when she said this & where...
Sugar Man is an amazing film -- one of the best docs I've seen for years. I would have loved to see 5 Broken Cameras win also. But, Sugar Man was stiff competition. Like 5 Broken Cameras, it's the opposite of Hollywood, understated, unpretentious, devastating, haunting look at Detroit, economic class in America, entertainment/music corporate industry vs. real art. But, in surprising ways, it also grapples with South African apartheid & progressive white consciousness & white rebellion against apartheid.
I was actually surprised Sugarman got nominated because it is so quiet & powerful & slow & deep. I spent years in Detroit as the city was collapsing -- this film captures something crucial about America that almost never makes it to the big screen.
So, in very different ways, both films engage apartheid and identity politics. Both emotionally devastating & incredibly honest & clear-eyed.
hey folks -- here's a quick report from the rural South. In my work, I travel around backroads in the rural South. Over the years, I have often listened to Christian radio (as a devout and very Left Christian, I love the gospel music, even as the theology grieves me).
I'm here to report that there seems to be a considerable increase in the air play of bizarre Christian Zionist radio programs on ordinary religious stations. Just an impression, but would be interesting to investigate. Some of it seems unusually sophisticated in its production values, music, etc. There's more Hebrew & Jewish cultural content -- e.g., music, little radio dramas. One program stood out from Sid Roth http://www.sidroth.org but in addition, there were others with cultish & elaborate "End Times" speculation on current events -- e.g., showing that tornadoes, sudden disasters that smite anyone who criticizes Jewish people -- within days, or at most a week. Pervasive dreadful racist views of Muslims & others in Middle East.
WWJD (what would Jesus do) to respond to this hatefilled speech? It's particularly disturbing that this kind of propaganda preys on people who are being hit hard by current US economy, in marginalized rural economies, where school & other public goods are hit by austerity. It's pretty glossy stuff being purveyed to people who aren't in a position to critically interrogate what they're hearing.
and they're dumb & getting dumber. All these diverse big money lobbies seem to be fueling a kind of madness in the elites & Political Establishment -- self-enclosed, cut off from reality, arrogant -- they seem to be losing critical thinking abilities. A little bit of FDR type noblesse oblige, they would have been able to chill us all out & save the system. But, nooooo. Self-destructive, boring, pathetic & clueless....
@flyod -- we are not hostages. We are watching a political Establishment destroying it's own legitimacy ...deeply corrupted by multiple Lobbies (of with the pro-Israel Lobby is just one of many). We are not hostages, we are citizens. We are many. They are few. They cannot continue to rule without some basic moral legitimacy. The system is not longer providing enough jobs, public goods for ordinary folks (I live in a really poor part of the country). They are destroying themselves as the corruption becomes ever more obvious. We need to fight back & ignore their "power" -- They are becoming paper tigers.
Yes, Ellen, good point. It is significant that the Lexington Herald-Leader was willing to run this op-ed. I do think it means that the 'frames' are shifting. This is a newspaper that is quite concerned not to appear 'out of the mainstream' because it has been vulnerable in past to accusations from Far Right of being 'liberal'. If the Herald-Leader runs a piece, it means that the topic has become part of what's acceptable debate in the 'mainstream'. It is not a conservative paper, but it's a very cautious one -- always striving for 'balance'. It is in a county that voted for Obama, but surrounded by 'red' counties -- and the Rand & Mitch forces are always on the prowl around it. I think that this piece would not have been accepted several years ago -- and I suspect the mainline churches recent stands are what legitimated this for the H-L. The author is a 'social justice' or 'left' Christian -- but the newspaper would have refused the piece if this perspective weren't now acceptable within mainstream debate.
@ Avigail Abarbanel – I look forward to reading your important book & so appreciate your comments here. I do want to express my concern over using the word TRIBAL . Have you reflected on how this word choice might affect people who identify as ‘First Peoples’, Native Americans, or ‘tribal’?
In Canada right now, Chief Theresa Pence is on a fast (possibly to death), which is part of an extraordinary uprising called “Idle No More” link to idlenomore.ca of indigenous peoples against devastation of their lands & exploitation of their peoples.
All around the world, native peoples are trying to band together to reclaim the rights of truly TRIBAL people (altho’ many reject that label as tainted, altho’ many, say in India, like it). I have several times commented on this in more detail on Mondoweiss – so if you google my posts under ‘betsy’ + ‘tribal’ , there’s more detailed explication as to why…
You will notice that most of the comments (and this article) cast ‘tribal’ as bad, as tainted, as racist ethnonationalism. That is part of a very long history of stigmatizing peoples who are not (in important ways) part of nation-states. Your use of ‘tribal’ taints & effaces the reality of indigenous people – and makes it sound as if it is the post-tribal from which tolerance & mutual respect comes.
I’m sure that you don’t mean to do this! Using ‘tribal’ to describe cultural Jewishness seems to be fairly widespread – e.g., ‘Tribefest’. I wish people would think critically about whether they want to do this – it’s not the usual pattern among American ethnic groups…
"hillbilly" is a vicious ethnic slur -- which has historically been used against mountain people sitting on land rich in natural resources. E.g., people from Appalachian coal-mining areas were so labeled right when Big Coal was building it's mechanisms for massive & often illegal land grabs. It has implications of genetic inferiority, violence, ungovernability, stupidity. It works well to discredit people who are trying to fight back. It is, however, one of the few ethnic slurs that is still acceptable among middle class city folks (especially on coasts)...More at link to amazon.com
hilarious!
Hi, Mooser...you're not troubling me. I'm finding all of this really really interesting -- don't say good bye!
btw, I had post-posting anxiety -- cause I realized I should have noted how ignorant, insulting & arrogant Christians can be in not 'getting' other faiths...
I'm learning a lot -- and realizing how clueless I've been...
@ritzl -- Your comments are pithy & helpful -- e.g.,
if there is a kind of 'glue' that is connecting ordinary Americans (of Jewish identification) with the Israel Lobby -- one wonders how strong it is, & what it's made of & whether it could melt. Until about 10 years ago, I was one of those post-ethnic sort of Americans who hardly thought consciously about ethnic background of people I ran into -- so I was astounded & upset when the wave of ignorant insults started flowing in from Jewish affiliated groups, against my church (Presbyterian). So, I've been bothering any of my friends & colleagues (who have any kind of Jewish identity) to explain what's behind that.
OK. Totally unscientific. But, what has struck me -- is that most of my progressive or liberal Jewish friends seem like what M.J. describes -- they *don't* really have much emotional attachment to Zionism -- but beyond that, the emotions seem to be sort of embarrassment (about the Israel lobby) & a state of denial -- like they're true non or anti-Zionist feelings are 'in the closet' -- and they've got some emotional resistance to bringing the topic up & getting into a dust-up with their Zionist parents or grandparents or something. Frankly, they seem to me to be in a state of moral paralysis...that seems totally strange, given their courage in other areas. Like its a question of decorum (they don't want to upset family members)...or everyone agreeing to not talk about an unpleasant & untraced episode of flatulence. Given the huge moral & geopolitical issues at stake -- I would think that these folks would be reachable -- and surely (especially among younger folks) they are a large number of people. (why is there so little hard data on these questions, one also wonders...e.g., really good surveys would help a lot). I'm truly perplexed by it, frankly. They seem strangely passive, like they don't think they can do anything --
But, the second thing that has struck me -- is the level of sheer propaganda & malarkey that is being circulated. I've only found one friend who is really Zionist -- normally, he's incredibly sharp & critical on political issues, but on Israel he parrots ridiculous lines, including wild accusations of Christians (which are totally unmoored from scholarly history). Would a concerted, critical look at the intellectual quality of history being taught in Jewish Studies & temples be a doable project?
Finally, I've only found ONE person of all my friends who actually attends a Temple. I periodically go with her to Temple, so I can keep a sense of direct interfaith fellowship. She's elderly, and wonderfully progressive, but terrified of her children & grandchildren losing their connection to her faith -- hence she's giving them life memberships in Hadassah & other such organizations. Again, if her primary emotional glue is this intergenerational love -- wanting to pass on a tradition -- couldn't she be reached on this level...
I live right smack in 'fly-over' USA & my work leads me to travel in very hard-hit, poor rural, Southern communities. Communities which on the surface look captured by right-wing, reactionary populist lobbies of all sorts (not least, the NRA)...But, I think there are all kinds of fissures between these grassroots people & the national lobbies -- where there's room for more progressive & radical alliances. (I think we could kick old Mitch's sorry butt out next election). But, it requires progressive folks truly addressing the real emotional needs that lock folks in.
I'm deeply ignorant re/ I/P & related questions, so this is but tenuous comments on my part...
how about a boycott movement among rank&file Jewish Americans -- against donating to groups that are misrepresenting them? and, asking for greater transparency re/ who is donating & what their agendas are? if, as some are suggesting, there are a small number of rightwing big donors, who are skewing the mission of groups (as happened w/ Christian rightwing lobbies).
So, shouldn't a broad mobilization among Jewish Americans be able to throw off the Israel Lobby? The Israel Lobby's only claim to moral authority comes from its claim to defend the interests of Jewish peoples -- and to hold off anti-Jewish forces. If a) they do not represent Jewish people and, if, b) anti-Semitism has largely disappeared in US (as a force that actively hurts people) and c) if ordinary Jewish Americans have lots of ways to take care of themselves, thank you, because they are not impoverished, stigmatized, powerless immigrants -- but rather solidly within middle class in a democracy (flawed, but not threatening to them) -- THEN THE KABUKI DANCE FALLS APART, even in our dysfunctional public sphere.
The more I learn, the more I feel it is a paper tiger -- and, that a bit more courage and organization could undo it. The civil rights struggle was up against far more dangerous economic forces -- entrenched local & state elites reaping profits from oppression, coupled w/ deeply corrupted police forces that could wield terrible violence against protestors. The women's struggle was also up against many forces profiting directly from patriarchy & violence. Compared to our other major social justice problems, this seems an unusually doable project. The people involved bring lots of assets -- there is a pervasive philoSemitism I would argue, in America, a wide sense of respect for the achievements of Jewish Americans in many spheres -- there's a lot of social capital there to draw on. Many other justice struggles have to work from far far fewer assets -- e.g., communities up against the Fossil Fuel Lobbies are often dealing w/ multiple stressors, devastating unemployment, bad schools, local corruption & violence. Yet, plucky, scappy grassroots groups rise up, even with all the burdens they bear.
e.g., look how much good Phil & Adam & posse have done with one website.
Exactly. Another excellent article, Phil.
@Citizen -- are you assuming he comes from Jewish background? he seems to come from social gospel Protestant background. Here's his summary of his family influence:
In 2006, Nicholas Dirks' wife, Janaki Bakhle, was viciously attacked by "Campus Watch, a project of the Middle East Forum" because she was a "close colleague" of Joseph Massad. See their article on her -- "Crisis at Columbia: Janaki Bakhle" link to campus-watch.org
This was part of the campaign against Joseph Massad, led by pro-Israel off-campus groups, which he describes in detail here link to solidarity-us.org
Janaki Bakhle seems to have grown up in India, but moved to US, where she was a graduate student under Edward Said. She's a feminist theorist -- and I can hardly wait to hear what she has to say about all this, if she can ever get out from the special veil woven by gauzy machinations of the U of C PR team!
There is a furious letter to Columbia newspaper from faculty there (see below). It is signed by very heavy hitters -- big name, highly respected folks. It will be interesting to see whether Dirks has just sacrificed his honor & respect among his scholarly peers (especially in Anthropology, South Asia studies)-- circles within which his wife is also a player. And, whether, anti-Zionist heavy hitter scholars in the U of C system will get involved -- like Judith Butler (see her Mondoweiss article to the Jerusalem Post smear campaign against her) link to mondoweiss.net
HERE'S THE LETTER FROM COLUMBIA FACULTY
link to columbiaspectator.com
@Kathleen -- this is actually hilarious, in a sick way. He's the Executive Director of Berkeley's "Strategic Communications Team" -- name of Dan Mogulof . Their mission?
Must have been a dust-up & they had to call in the communications swat team...I wonder if that Masterpiece Theatre book-lined backdrop is really a roll up, canvas, portable screening booth, that they can rush to the site of an "emergency"?
Obscene & ridiculous! This is what our premier universities have become? Dominated by lawyers & PR officials & run by toadyists?
@Hostage -- amazing quote from Hannah! thanks!
@Rusty Pipes -- thanks. I read the Rosenberg article. It sounds from this like the 'lobbying' groups are driving the situation -- and have swallowed the mutual aid & religious & philanthropic missions of other groups. (as happened in 1980s & 90s w/ Rightwing Christian lobbies). But, it looks fragile -- like a bubble (or, like a scam directed towards scaring older people). E.g., if moral authority has been lost & they're 'hacks' trying to defend their own paychecks, who depend on patently false smear campaigns (of broad numbers of ordinary Americans) -- one would think that a broad campaign from within Jewish faith communities to take back power & get better representatives -- could sweep this away pretty quickly. Or, for youth to assuage the fears of older generations who fear that they are 'losing' the next generation...(a typical American fear, in this land of immigrants & diversity)
@Hostage -- thanks for your always data-rich reflections. Can you imagine -- renowned scholar Googling in such a silly way? One would laugh if one were not crying...
He could have just phoned the headquarters in Louisville -- folks would have loved to explain. Part of what's going on re/ China -- is that Presbyterians in 20th & 21st century have moved strongly to work in partnership with faith communities & civil society in different parts of the world. The reason is, that in the 19th & early 20th century, mission workers too often were imperialist & high-handed -- coming into complex situations w/o understanding & pushing things based on narrow ideologies & ideas. In reaction, the US church tries to play a supportive role, to be a partner, not a pronouncer as if from on high. E.g., the recent PC(USA) statements against the govt in Sudan, or earlier ones against apartheid South Africa -- were in partnership & support of justice movements & campaigns. The condemnations of bad trade policies (which criticize many govts) are typically linked with support for webs of labor rights workers, hunger fighters, anti-globalization movements, debt movement Jubilee efforts, etc. So, the idea that PC(USA) is "singling out Israel' is both wrong -- it shows a self-enclosed, lack of interest in how Presbyterianism actually works...
Hold on. PC(USA) has been arguing on the basis of universal human rights, not to protect a particularistic historical connection to a specific patch of land.
From 1940s, PC(USA) General Assembly resolutions have supported Palestinian rights to self-determination. And, since late 1980s here are most important GA resolutions:
for more link to theipmn.org
@Mooser -- I sense many acronyms in my future.
Can anyone suggest a short, fact-rich article on this -- e.g., what Mooser calls "how Judaism is structured (or not)" -- what are various strands & how do they relate to each other -- e.g., "the Israel Lobby", the do-good service organizations, the philanthropic organizations, training for rabbis, mutual aid societies for immigrants?
It's not that I won't read whole books. But, is there perhaps a gap here -- a lack of straightforward, short summaries of what "the organized Jewish community" is. The first time I heard that phrase (from a representative of a local Jewish organization), it worried me. Maybe it's my Protestantism -- but our faith communities have become obsessed with making fine distinctions between governance in the spiritual, philanthropic, theological, service, prophetic, lobbying of actual governments, ethnonational identity realm. Protestants have behaved so badly in the past in mixing these forms of governance up -- so we've tried to build fail-safe mechanisms to try to separate them. E.g., John Calvin created horrors in Geneva, when he & his pals tried to run the govt in a purist theocratic way; the misbehaving Puritans in New England went to excess till they reformed themselves & flipped into the pluralist tolerance of Unitarians & Congregationalists / United Church of Christ; the fundraising efforts of 19th c 'mission' /philanthropic ministries created all sorts of racist views of people they were trying to serve; the Rightwing Christian coup d'etat of US in 1980s created crazy lobbying groups like Moral Majority etc. which are still distorting our politics. The ethnic mutual aid societies of Irish Americans got entangled in bad ways in IRA violence & Catholic/Protestant hostilities.
My point. Do I have to become an I/P geek in order to get the understanding Mooser says I should have? Mooser of course, speaks like a many headed sphinx, with each head contradicting the other. But, somewhere he has spoken of the 'double duty' of anti-Zionist work. I think that it's a triple duty for pluralist Christians working on I/P -- that a bunch of hard work is being off-loaded unfairly onto critics of Israel. This means, first, that anyone who starts working for justice in I/P, is constantly getting waylaid by other labor-intensive tasks that they are told they need to do first (cleanse themselves of any faint slight echo of ignorance or prejudice relating to Jewish history/identity/ theology etc.; speak against every possible other injustice FIRST anywhere else in the world; follow rigid protocols re/ the ethnicity of truth-tellers -- e.g., only certain ethnicities can speak authoritatively about certain topics, expertise doesn't count, etc.) Second, some of the tasks that are being off-loaded really could be better done by people who are coming from within Jewish experiences & traditions. There is a depth of knowledge, an ability to be critical, an understanding of back stories, and deep emotions -- that comes best from those within a faith, or ethnic, or immigrant experience. And, non-Jewish Americans are so horrified of past tendencies toward conspiracy theories at the fringes of American political culture -- that don't want to touch questions about lobbies, etc. Third, pluralist Christians have a responsibility & necessity, I think, to deal with Rightwing Christianity -- this is a lot of work already.
Given these other tasks, isn't there some kind of 101 type reading that could help both combat anti-Semitism & help build more aware interfaith dialog?
@Citizen -- yes, we have a small Mosque & small Hindu temple -- thank God. I live in a depressed "Red State", with a lot of needs for health care etc., so have attracted very talented professionals who have brought these faiths with them -- which is a blessing for us & is probably a terrible loss for their home countries, for which I should feel guilty, but it's such a relief in the flat terrain of insipid or Rightwing Christianity.
I know that national & international work is important. But, I think it's also really important to link the broader levels with grassroots efforts. If one can get grassroots interfaith civic webs going -- it can be mobilized when crises or bigger campaigns come up...However, people still seem to be dancing around the big questions & not able to process feelings & ideas with each other. I was young during the civil rights struggle, but my memory is that (in equivalent networks of good faith, interracial networks trying to work together for change) there was more open, emotional discussion then, of race & prejudice -- as people could call each other out, reflect on themselves, change their ways of thinking, learn from each other.
We are fighting. We been fighting. And, how much have we accomplished? Precious little. That's why I think we need to think very carefully about what we are up against, to understand what it is, what it's sources of power are, and how to build broader alliances for a counter movement. I feel that, on Mondoweiss, there is not always enough attention to the concrete, grassroots challenges of this... Just to speak re/ PC(USA) -- we've been at this for decades...what have we accomplished? I don't mind being called names. I would like to figure out how to make a difference. I'm still going to keep trying to talk to folks of Zionist persuasion at grassroots level, because that's where I think change comes from first...but that's just me. Need other levels of strategy also.
I'm really confused by a lot of this actually. I'm looking at it from a grassroots level -- as someone who is trying to work within a congregation & in relationship to warm friendships & civic bonds that cross & criss cross multiple faith communities in my current town of residence. Whatever the Big People like Walzer actually feel -- I can say that the civic terrain on which little people like me & my pals are operating is charged with kinda crazy feelings...I've actually only been able to find one friend who actually attends Temple -- to take me to visit periodically. And, I'm working w/ some folks on an interfaith something-or-other. What I'm *feeling* to speak personally -- is that there is fear mongering which has caused my friends (of a Jewish persuasion) to have really strange ideas re/ what's going on in Presbyterianism -- at this grassroots level, I'm not seeing a clean distinction of Zionist/not Zionist -- but really wonderful people that I respect & care about who are getting fed a whole lot of malarkey about what's going on in PC(USA) -- for all the interfaith blah blah blah -- there's not a good terrain within which we can work this thro...there are strange emotional force fields & cul de sacs -- and I don't know what to do to break thro this.
I think most Presbyterians will welcome open dialog. Like Phil, I am grateful that Walzer expressed his fears. It's been an awful decade for us Presbyterians, with so much implied, but not on the table for open give & take.
@gamal -- THANK YOU! Zero Anthropology is an amazing & wonderful site... I hadn't known of it. What an intro!
poor maligned anthropologists. Compare to what Smadar Lavie, a real anthropologist writes link to mondoweiss.net
@Mooser -- it's ok. To make up, I would like to share a scriptural joke with you.
So, the weekend after the Nov elections, we were in Asheville NC & went to a wonderful New Agey church. Whilst trying to be non-partisan, yet joyful over dodging a bullet, the pastor said:
Let me tell you, that had people rolling in the aisles -- giving a whole new meaning to the phrase Holy Rollers. I've been looking for somewhere to repeat that joke, because it would deeply offend many of my circles -- so hope you find it funny.
Mooser -- you are baiting me. You asked me for links re/ the kinds of bitter, unfair attacks that my faith community has experienced for a decade -- suggesting that MondoWorld would be interested. I responded with links. You then suggest that these links represent *my* view of people of Jewish background or persuasion.
That is RIDICULOUS! That "us" pronoun, as is "the Jews" category -- are being concocted by you. I wasn't saying anything like Dershowitz speaks for "the Jews" -- the whole point of almost every post I've made in this thread, is that as a rabbi recently in an interfaith gathering w/ Presbys & other mainline faith communities -- "If someone claims to speak for 'the Jews', they aren't". You should be able to tell from my many comments on this site that I wouldn't think or feel such a stupid, stupid, stupid thing -- as you are trying to attribute to me! I am not the 'them' to the 'us' you're concocting.
I have distinguished between the big lobbying groups, actual faith communities, and the other tangled strands of ethnicity & culture. Why are you doing this? You keep trying to twist what I'm saying to make me sound like an 'anti-Semite' (a problematic word IMO, btw) -- thereby, dodging the issue I brought up with MarionL -- which is that flip (and strategic rather than substantive) accusations of 'anti-Semitism' are undermining American public's capacity to debate these important issues carefully.
I'm a flawed & frail human being -- but this is one evil that I am not.
Mooser please -- why me? Please, please, please. Do you notice how diligent we vote-lovin', committee-formin', democracy-mad Presbys have been in trying to explain these intricacies of Presby self-governance to MondoWorld? I'm actually really curious to learn answers to the questions you raise. But, why do I have to answer these questions? I googled the name you gave & found -- eagles & American flags rampant & waving in the breeze -- things flashing by saying "Women's Rights", "Hasbara Training Sessions", "Intelligence & Terrorism Training Center". I don't understand.
To your questions, I would like to add -- What does this have to do with the Temple where I've been attending (sporadically) for several months to try to keep warm, real interfaith community bonds? This looks to me like a lobbying group, disconnected from real, living communities of faith. But, if it's an 'ethnic' group, not a 'religious' group -- I still don't see any clear lines of democratic accountability or boundaries to this group. How can you have democratic representation or right to speak for people if not?
Btw, I'm not directing above questions to Mooser -- just to anyone who wants to answer it...
Btw, this is an example of what comes up if you search under "Presbyterian" on this site:
link to ajcongress.org
Nice.
If you search the http://www.pcusa.org site with "Jewish" you get this link to pcusa.org -- with phrases like
Moose, Moose, dear Moose -- not fair, not fair...I was talking to you about this because I was already in a thread talking to you about an idea you brought up in response to comments she made so I wanted to know what you thought of my idea about your idea in reaction to her comments and if you know any linguists who can help extricate ourselves from this pronomial spiral if not slippery slope I would appreciate it while I vociferously say I care not a farthing for these labels you're using because your particularity of being is much more interesting and important in its specificity and ungulation than any label you are imagining might connect you to the virtual being of one MarionL...help I can't get out of this sentence!
@Klaus -- you know, it's funny what offends one & what doesn't. I kinda liked that 'con man' comment -- I love how hard to pin down Jesus is -- with all of those strange parables -- as Emily Dickinson says "tell the truth but tell it slant". I love how trickster he can be.
What's REALLY bothering me on this thread is MarionL -- dodging questions, not listening...
Concerned about all this, I've taken to asking my practicing Jewish friends to take me to Temple services -- it's been great! I like the music lots & the liturgies are beautiful. Really good --- I'm going to keep it up...As I'd expected I knew lots of people already (mostly from social justice activism).
The important stuff about faith, for me, is very mystical -- as you describe, beyond words. Experiences & presences that require 'talking slant'...I'm with Gandhi -- diverse spiritual paths converge in God in ways that can't be expressed rationally...
@Mooser -- ya wanted links, I gave you Dershowitz. But, if you want more sophisticated --- here you go. It feels to many of us in PC(USA) that we have been repeatedly slandered as anti-Semitic & pressured for the past decade -- ONLY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT US AID TO ISRAEL. These accusations are thrown around very lightly, as if this isn't a grave charge.
A good view into how this works in my area, at the grassroots level, is conveyed by Russ Greenleaf link to mondoweiss.net I know & respect Jonathan Miller, we have family connections -- but he was astonishingly unethical I think in his HuffPost article. It was upsetting to Presbys here.
But, at a more subtle theological level, let's talk about Amy-Jill Levine. MarionL has kindly explained above that Levine is the person to 'best' explain Christianity to us Christians. Levine has made important points, that I strongly agree with, re/ how Christian reading the Jesus story can get a negative view of "the Jews" (your & her language not mine, dear Moose). See the first part of:
‘Misusing Jesus: How the Church Divorces Jesus from Judaism,’ Christian Century
(December 26, 2006), 20-25; excerpted reprint “C21 Resources: The Church in the 21st Century Center” (Fall 2008), 13-14.
Her argument is that Christian sunday school classes don't show Jesus wearing the tzitzit & tallit & practicing kosher -- and other ways efface his "Jewishness". Good points -- fixing Sunday School books & posters would be an excellent local interfaith effort -- I like that idea. She also goes after liberation & feminist theologians -- saying that they portray "the Jews" as the old guard oppressors & Jesus as something new & prophetic -- that this creates anti-Semitism among Christians now. Yes, good points. But, this is widely noted & practiced now among Presbyterians -- this theme circulates in sermons. But, hold on. I would also offer, that Presbyterians strongly identify "the prophetic" (in Marc Ellis' sense) with, well, the prophets, as in Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. -- this strong respect for the prophetic & liberationist dimensions of Judaism goes along with the many webs of solidarity between temples & churches built up at local level over decades in common social justice fights. That's where I think there's a facile attribution of anti-Semitic ideas, without enough listening to what non-Jews actually think.
Finally, this same article by Levine ends with several pages of slamming Palestinian & other liberation theologies -- as, surprise, surprise " prejudicial" " anti-Jewish" "commentary that divorces Jesus from Judaism and then uses the story of Jesus to condemn all Jews" & "is not a Christian message. It is, a recycled anti-Judaism that depicts Israel as a country of Christ-killers". She has a few wan sentences about her support for Palestinian statehood -- but really, don't you think she should grapple a little teeny bit more with the problems of Palestinians from their own perspective -- problems that are MUCH more pressing than what clothes Jesus wears in highly sentimentalized Christian Sunday School books?
Finally, Levine co-authored an article "Habits of anti-Judaism:Critiquing a PCUSA report on Israel/Palestine" -- that was eagerly read by Presbyterians, in our earnest studious little way. In the first paragraph it begins "the old habit of bearing false witness against Jewish neighbors lives on. In recent years this practice has thrived especially in mainline Protestant statements on the Middle East." The minister of my parents' church urged me to read it, when I expressed concerns re/General Assembly votes. He said, essentially, we Presbyterians first have to cleanse our souls of any traces of historical anti-Semitism, before we can speak in public about US military support for Israel. All across the country, there were study groups on this article.
I'm sorry, dear pastor, but having read it carefully, I say NO! this article claims very subtle "echoes" of historical anti-Semitism -- that become arcane. For instance the metaphor in PC(USA) report's title "Breaking down the walls" is anti-Semitic because...
And, they say, the
is linked, they say, to explications that
In other words, PC(USA) critics of US military aid to Israel are in a Catch 22 to the third power. We're anti-Semitic if we follow our churches teachings that all nations should be judged by the same standards (because that violates the idea that *some* not all Jews, and our Right wing Christians, have that God covenanted a specific piece of property to "the Jews" whatever that means). But, on the other incompatible hand, we are unfairly 'targeting' Israel, if we employ prophetic scriptures to say that universal human rights & social justice should be respected by Israel. And, on the third hand, we are suggesting that Jews should wander the earth, if we caution that US military support for Israel's current policy could lead to the collapse of 2 state possibility & grave & destructive events in Middle East.
The brilliance of this article & others like it -- was that it kept Presbyterians huddled in their dutiful little study groups, trying to purify their souls & their theologies -- FOR YEARS. While real people were gravely suffering in the real world in Middle East.
I say, in response, that real racism or religious bigotry is not that subtle & arcane. People who are actually racist or bigoted show that in many dimensions of their lives. You see real people being discriminated against over real things (like housing, employment, political voice, etc.). The facile use of the "anti-Semitism" card is discrediting the users of it...And, too many mainline Christians have wasted time purifying themselves, when they should have been responding to urgent contemporary, concrete suffering & justice issues
@MarionL -- "a distraction"? are you reading the comments on this thread? are you listening?
haha! the dance of pronouns on this thread is dizzying. We need a linguist. It *is* like a game -- just grab an image, preferably from someone else's faith tradition, and then stick whatever meanings you want into it, while gaining the magical power to be the pope of "all the Jews" -- for like 2 minutes. Once you've got that hat on your head, you not only have the power to speak "for all Jews", you can put the dunce cap on others -- one is marked "all Christians from the old days of Jesus to this day" -- fortunately the person who ends up with the dunce cap is not allowed to speak & noone can respond to them...Game on! should be fun! wait, why am I not having fun??
Mooser, re/ your comment up-thread re/ wanting links to anti-Presby bitterness. It never crossed my mind that such anti-Presby tirades came from folks who could speak for Jews -- I thought about listing groups -- but then thought, no, it's the principle that is important. That it's this linguistic free-for-all that is a huge problem -- where folks are passing around the "I'm the voice of all the Jews" hat in a way that's really destructive of moral debate in USA. Also, I decided to ignore & forget these anti-Presby tirades. The only one I remember clearly was the phrase "the mucky swamps of Presbyterian anti-Semitism"! (rather charmingly earthy don't you think? compared to more typical "white bread" and declining demographics comments). But, if you really want links you could start by searching the Committee on Accuracy in Middle East Reporting under "Presbyterian". Also, ADL, Simon Weisenthal Center, Dershowitz, Jewish Council for Public Affairs (JCPA) -- all made strong accusations of anti-Semitism & linked it to attributions of ancient & unbroken bigotry & persecution. This burst out around 2004 when PC(USA) was moving towards BDS. I followed some of the comments on these websites at that time. I won't say that I was shocked, because that word upsets your delicate sensibilities Mooser -- you worry too much about me...but pick any other word from the thesaurus under "shocked"...
Mooser, maybe you can explain this to me. I'm getting so befuddled by MarionL. Can you help clear my addled mind? Didn't she suggest that this card scared her & that it implied deep Christian bigotry against Jewish peoples going back in one unbroken historical line to Jesus? Don't you think that this is a gravely serious fact, if true? Shouldn't all ethical Americans, jump up when faced by such concerns to change it? Why is she now calling "Mary & Joseph" on the card "a distraction"? Why did she drop the "anti-Semitism" concern just like that? I told her I was all set to start a movement among Christians in my home town to break this heinous sin...(which we thought we'd already done to a manageable, 'good enough' type level some decades before)
Mooser, why hasn't MarionL responded to any of my questions? could it be that if you've got the dunce cap on, you're sent to Coventry?
@Bumblebye -- brilliant! we'll get on this...and add mirrors to the wall with little legends saying "Paid for by my tax dollars", so Americans can see themselves as co-builders...
@Klaus -- thanks for the straightforward statement. I will ponder this & try to understand -- and once again search my heart to see if I'm harboring unconscious prejudices.
The reason that this is hard for me to understand -- is that it never crossed my mind to think "the Jews" built that wall. The only Jews in this card are Mary, Joseph & shepherds -- who seem to be hurt by the wall. I think of the wall has having been built by a whole matrix of military industrial security states -- if you wanted to put a nasty person in here, signifying who was 'behind' the wall -- it could have included W or Dick Cheney or any other the war-mongers from US who push military aid all over the world (not just in Israel). Heck, I see *myself* as complicit in building that wall -- insofar as it is my hard-earned tax dollars which fuels the Israeli war machine. In fact, maybe Banksy could add a little mirror to the card next year?
All the Christmas sermons I have ever heard have emphasized that it was rich & powerful people who gave them 'no room in the inn' -- in other words, it is a parable of the mighty vs. the humble -- this story in particular, doesn't tie in w/ negative views of Jews. E.g., I can see that some of the descriptions of the Pharisees or of Herod could lay seeds for anti-Jewish prejudices (as theologian Rosemary Ruether I believe says) -- but still don't see how this does.
For me, as a Christian, this is about peace & war -- the 'sin' or 'evil' that gives rise to it is not in only one 'people' -- we are all fallible, liable to violence & oppression. This is a collective problem -- no one is exempt. I don't think "Jews" are anti-Christian -- my life is too interwoven with people of Jewish, Hindu, Muslim & other faith backgrounds to generalize like that. The problem is the wall & the occupation -- and that does not break down neatly on ethnic, religious lines. Americans of all types are complicit, along with Israelis.
It is a simple fact, that Bethlehem is barricaded & occupied right now in a militarized strip of land that has become like an open air prison for Palestinians -- yet it has also, for centuries been an icon for Christians of Jesus message of peace-making. I would think that anyone from the other faiths in the region, would understand why Christians would be motivated to meditate on Bethlehem, to grasp its various meanings. That doesn't mean that we might not ALSO spend time, trying to empathically understand what it means to Jews who ponder Rachel's tomb or other sites in Bethlehem which might have meaning for them.
If I were trying to understand what Rachel's tomb or David's birthplace means to Jews (for whom Bethlehem has spiritual meanings) -- I would want to first listen to what they say it means, rather than tell them what it means.
But, I will think about what you're saying. I just getting tired of being accused of anti-Semitism ONLY when critical of Israel.
How about we all dump on the Italians -- if we're digging up millenia of misbehavior -- shouldn't the Italians be held primarily accountable for reparations for the Roman Empire?
I still don't understand what is 'insensitive' about this card. The heinous crimes of European Christianity in middle ages, early modern era against Jewish minorities -- did use ideas of deicide -- putting guilt for Jesus death on Jewish people. But, this was very focused on the death of Jesus, not the birth. If this were an Easter card featuring the crucifixion & minimizing the Roman soldiers & foregrounding Jewish authorities...I can see her argument. But, deicide is a doctrine that has been thoroughly repudiated by all of mainline Christianity. It wasn't about Jews "rejecting" Jesus -- I mean, for Pete's sake, were not all the main disciples Jewish? Christians were pretty much "rejected" everywhere for centuries -- if we were still worked up by that -- we would be glowering at folks all around the Mediterranean. I don't see how you can plausibly link that medieval doctrine of deicide to the Christians who are circulating this card. What is MarionL suggesting Christians do? Set the Christmas story in New Orleans, and change everyone's names?
@Annie -- ok. I like where you're going with this art thing. Art can mean many things to many eyes & that's the good & provocative thing about it...
But, this isn't being used just as art. It's also resonating with spiritual meanings for living faith communities. Several commentators on this thread are dodging that. I appreciate that MarionL seems to be trying to be in dialogue -- and that Donald is trying to respond in kind.
But, neither are getting to the immediacy of the burning issues for American faith communities. While accusing others of gross insensitivity, MarionL has made a string of remarkably negative & reductive & uninformed comments about Christianity -- it would take me too long to explain what's 'insensitive' on her part. I shrug it off...she seems ignorant & unable to empathically engage diversity in spiritual paths. (e.g., I imagine her saying to Native Americans practicing in Dine tradition -- "Spider Woman wasn't a historical figure! why do you want the National Park Service to give you access to Canyon De Chelley for your ancestral sites of worship!" as if Dine people had never had a complicated thought in their poor little heads about the relationship between sacred & 'historical' time. Thank goodness, she's found the 'best' scholar to explain this all to us poor benighted folks!)
What matters is that she is dodging the realities of what's happening in US in interfaith dialogue about I/P. MarionL has not responded to the question of whether she is participating & complicit in, a widespread movement of disinformation & accusation against Christians who are critical of US military aid for Israel. Many on this site know that I'm a Presbyterian. My church has been bitterly & repeatedly attacked over the past decade by multiple groups claiming to speak for all Jews, and attributing heinous motivations to us. Linking us with unspeakable medieval ideas & practices. And, showing a staggering lack of interest in what the church believes theologically, or practices in real everyday spiritual life. I have concluded that this is a systematic campaign of propaganda -- because we hear the same, tired points made. It does not matter how often we counter with facts. The attacks on us, go directly to core tenets of our faith -- especially in our attempts to resist Empire & the military/industrial complex because of Jesus call (as we understand it) to be peacemakers. There are strong alliances in this attack on mainstream Christianity between Rightwing Christianity & the groups claiming to speak for all Jews.
MarionL has not responded to my question re/ all this. This is an urgent question which is of real importance to millions of your fellow Americans. I say again, why, these days, do mainstream Christians only hear these accusations of anti-Semitism -- when we criticize US military support for Israel or Israel's actions or policies? If you think this card shows deep seated anti-Jewish prejudices, wouldn't those prejudices be appearing in many areas? If yes, where do you see mainstream Christianity engaging in such heinous behavior?
As far as I can see, my church & other mainline American churches have been making strong & consistent efforts against anti-Jewish or anti-Judaism for many decades. For overview from the World Council of Churches from over 30 years ago see link to oikoumene.org WHAT MORE NEEDS DOING? Rather than these vague implications, you should spell it out. I'm ready to start & I can guarantee that my church will revv up it's justice work -- if you can show evidence that anti-Jewish behavior or beliefs are a pressing global or American issue. (Please do remember that it would have to be ranked on a list of our prime social justice priorities that includes: deepening poverty & inequality, global warming, collapse of health care/education/public services, military industrial complex, land grabs & displacement, neoliberal globalization & bad trade deals, hunger, women's & gay rights, etc., etc., etc., etc.)
@MarionL -- When people jump to accusations of anti-Semitism, when contemporary I/P is discussed critically -- ARe the comments about Christians so stereotyped, so tied to old history, so incurious about fellow Americans' (who happen to be Christian) actual faith & practices -- because folks *need* to see Christianity only as a dyadic Other -- in which Christianity is primarily defined by it's imputed hatred of Jewish people & faith -- and Christianity is an unchanging 'essence' -- that can best be understood by not listening to real persons who are practicing, pluralist Christians? As I have seen this card used -- it is as a Christmas card (by definition almost entirely between Christians -- I send "holiday" or Hanukkah cards to non-Christian friends around this time). It's primary context is the flood of sentimentalized images of Bethlehem in America in December -- it is designed to make people 'uncomfortable' -- the way many great spiritual myths do -- to force questions of displacement, injustice, violence. These are both specific -- e.g., to sweep away the mystified Hallmark, happy-wappy views of Bethlehem -- to wake Americans up to their complicity in funding the military machine that builds such outrageous walls (across landscapes filled with meanings for diverse faith traditions) & to wake American Christians up to what Rusty Pipes has called a "soft Zionism" -- that gets emotionally attached to vapid imagery, while dodging *precisely* the kinds of urgent calls for love, healing & justice which Jesus & other prophets made & make. In Christian liturgy, imagery -- the stories of Jesus birth are typically (in my experience) used & retold in all sorts of contexts in which poor teenage mothers & fathers have to struggle & are denied care/lodging/respect, etc. This is a use as a 'universal' moral allegory that needs to be redeployed in all sorts of historical contexts -- I've heard it retold in many ways -- poor unwed mother in Chicago, a couple in rural American south thrown off welfare. To insist that this must have, for others, the associations you make, misses the point. When Cornel West recently invoked the black Christian rhetoric -- that equates Pharaoh with forces of Empire against Moses of liberation -- that is not anti-Egypt in contemporary situations. Egyptians shouldn't feel insulted or scared by Dr. West. Nor, when he speaks of Pontius Pilate washing his hands, should Italian Americans feel that he is 'pandering' to deep-rooted anti-Italian prejudices in America.
If you feel that anti-Jewish or anti-Judaism racism is a significant problem among American Christians -- please raise the call to work on that directly! I think many Americans of many faiths or non-faiths would be galvanized to join you! Put forth the facts, show that Christians are *nowadays* demeaning, discriminating, attacking, accusing Jewish peoples or faiths -- let's get a movement going to stop this now! But, separate that from discussions of Israels current policies & actions. And, separate it from discussions of American military support for Israel. If accusations of "anti-Semitism" ONLY come up when Christians talk about Israeli govt policies or actions, US aid to Israel -- it feels odd -- as if you aren't really worried about anti-Semitism in general & as if you're not actually interested in inter-faith dialogue, or pluralistic exchanges among Americans of diverse backgrounds.
Here's what the card says on the back
the logic of gang warfare. Plus, stupid & self-destructive. Welcome to Mad Max world!
forget the ice caps melting & worry about important dangers...Your grandchildren will thank you for this...
@Rusty Pipes -- exactly.
the Moose speaks like the sphinx -- one never can quite know what he means... Does Mooser means that the 20th c. was a violent bloody mess that inures one to shock. Or, perhaps he means that this sort of thing was typical & widespread, so why the shock? If yes to either, I beg to differ. I'm pretty familiar w/ the 20th c. -- but painting images like this on ones pregnant belly seems exceptional &, as others have suggested, unusual, disturbing as in weird & creepy. I can't think of images like this from said 20th c. Yes, there was the cult of motherhood under Naziism -- to build demographic power. And, when my father was in Palestine many years ago, someone spoke re/ birth rate & said that's what would change the balance of power with Israel.
But, to me, there seems something distinctively disturbing about putting this on ones belly. I can't think of other examples like this (which could show my ignorance more than anything else). I do know of examples of enemies writing on the bellies of women they have killed -- but that only suggests how 'off' this is. It doesn't seem like the mother is in conversation with her unborn child here -- I strongly suspect that this is really an adult-to-adult conversation. It seems that she's flaunting her commitment to the security state to other adults. It feel creepy to me, because it feels like the epitome of a kind of 'group-think' that goes so deep that this absorption into the collective identity swamps any other role. It actually reminded me of the guards at Abu Ghraib or other facebook photos of soldiers doing disgusting things. Playing to the camera, doing 'hijinks' that express a kind of situational craziness because of their violent settings. Probably underpaid grunts ending up in bad job situations carrying out the imperialist imperatives of distant ruling elites -- flaunting their tough prison guard identity to each other. But, the fact that she's branding her unborn child into this imagery, locking that child like this -- to me shows a breakdown of individuality & ordinary parent / child bonds. Even in very extreme situations, there's usual a bit of space left around the role of parents -- so that they can have a kind of primal loyalty to their child -- to their own child's right to survive, to claim other futures. Most places, there's some recognition that this loyalty has unique power & is in tension with group identities. I agree strongly with Ellen -- that this is almost surely true even in ghastly totalitarian regimes like Nazi Germany -- the dream of the patriarchal tyrants is that they have this kind of control over women's reproduction -- but I wonder how deep that went into many women's identities in relationship with their own children & their own bodies. I've lived for years in some of the most economically marginalized communities in the world -- & in places where parents could expect up to half of their children to die. My experience is that most people show an astonishing tendency to hope that their children will LIVE & get out of their hellholes. I feel like there are pretty strong taboos usually against 'marking' children in the womb -- I can't think of examples of women putting marks onto their bellies that 'brand' the unborn so deeply into 'cannon fodder' roles -- or their own bodies into the role of cannon fodder factory. Amidst the violence of the 20th c, this feels like a pretty strange kind of dehumanization. Of course, there have been much worse & more violent things -- but this is pretty distinctive in its creepiness. I'd like to know what the social setting was within which this woman decided to do this -- I bet it was a kind of group-think, where she was pulled into doing something as a kind of spectacle for adult others -- a group identity that swamped her relationship to her unborn child. If that's correct, it's a militarization of life that goes about as deep as it can go...I think it's a trophy for & by the military apparatus. To lose one's ability to feel shock at that kind of dehumanization of individuals would be a kind of dehumanization of oneself. Furthermore, that's an endless spiral to go into -- as Lily Tomlin says "no matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up with world developments". I think stability in the face of violence, comes FROM an ability to be shocked.