Total number of comments: 199 (since 2012-03-29 13:01:19)
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Ties with Turkey moved a step away from isolation. Unconditional support from the US *and* all the countries that follow the US remains I presume.
If Israel isn't isolated by now, when is it happening? When the UN redeclares Zionism as racist? When the countries with diplomatic ties revoke those ties of which there were none pre 1948? When Egypt and Jordan tear up the peace treaties? When Germany starts another Holocaust this time worldwide?
The only countries that seem to be collapsing in on themselves in the ME are the ones that have always tried to isolate her.
Maybe next Pesach it'll happen, Israel can worry then. Or the next one. Perhaps Israel's enemies will start saying 'next year in Jerusalem' at this time of year.
17 year old youth approaches IDF checkpoint with fake pistol, attacks soldier and is shot dead.
Why is there such a lack of international outrage speaking out against this crime?
"Day after Israel rejects ceasefire, bus explodes in Tel Aviv outside IDF Spokesperson office"
The very title is presenting a debating point.
Looks like many of you are going to have to increase the outpouring of morally outraged sadness if for some crazy reason this bus bomb doesn't lead to peace.
"Do we really need to go over these points again and again?"
Hostage does, take it as a good sign that your point has been very well made if you're keeping him at it. Don't feel compelled to repeat yourself because he does so.
"LOL! You’re just jealous, because there isn’t a molehill’s worth of legislation for you to throw around in support of your position."
I'd love to have your knowledge of the law but I would never argue just the legal aspect of a political (or whatever) opinion I held to the exclusion of all other facts. Why would I want to be seen as dogmatic and unable to admit I was wrong even just by the minority who would question that wisdom? I think it would make everything I stated questionable.
Texas is a country, the state of Palestine asked to be occupied and annexed by Abdullah as part of a plan for future independence, the writing in a letter by Ben Gurion isn't actually there because of subsequent events years later and I live in Israel are all opinions that I don't share which don't actually require much more than a molehill of legal knowledge.
I think it's great that Sibiriak shares your knowledge of the law but has the flexibility of mind to also argue a case not based on dogmatism and an abject terror of being contradicted.
Hits the nail right on the head. On its own throwing a mountain of legislation and commentary on legislation underneath an already held political position is not the full story.
It's a credit to you that some are seeing this point thanks to your arguments here.
"In a blunt interview last year, Jordan’s King Abdullah stated he would not support any sort of union between his country and the West Bank."
I wonder if there is any reason other than support of an independent Palestinian state for saying that. The Palestinians are revolting perhaps?
"...but I’m not going to check my brain at the door and listen to Zionist propaganda and Palestinian fairly tales"
You seem to listen to Jordanian fairy tales easily enough. Just when do you think the Palestine issue was going to be resolved by Jordan if Israel's occupation hadn't happened in '67? When the Palestinian fairy waved her wand over the discriminatory minority monarchy that made peace with Israel?
A "LOL" and a "dummy", that's good. You shouldn't deny Palestinian mistreatment by Jordan because it suits your political argument.
"The only other option open to the Jericho Congress was to declare Ben Gurion their next head of state. The Jordanian union was always provisional and “without prejudice to the final status and settlement of the Question of Palestine”."
The only option open at Jericho was Abdullah's wishes. An independent Palestine sponsored by Jordan was as far fetched as choosing Ben Gurion as head of state.
It wasn't provisional, it was expansionism in agreement with Israel. That's why this provisionality never had any movement towards an independent Palestine and even after '67 Jordan was still trying to claw back the WB with the lie of continuing to liberate the Palestinian people there.
Since Jordan was forced by popular will to recognise the PLO and give up it's claim over the territory look how liberated these Palestinians are now that Jordan is suddenly at the forefront of upholding the right of return to an independent Palestine.
link to hrw.org
You can read about Jordanian expansionism at electronic intifada
link to electronicintifada.net
"In the aftermath of the Nakba, with Palestinian society shattered and more than half of its indigenous population refugees, including over 300,000 in the West Bank and Jordan alone, Abdullah gained acceptance for his rule in a sham conference led by the representatives of his allies in the Palestinian National Defense Party. The combined territories were officially renamed the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in 1950, and received de jure recognition by London and private approval from Washington. A year later Abdullah was assassinated by a Palestinian at Jerusalem’s al-Aqsa Mosque in front of his grandson, and later king, Hussein."
"Perhaps like his predecessors, King Abdullah II believes that absorbing Palestine will not only make Jordan more viable economically, but will further ingratiate him to American and Israeli policy makers. Yet, in an increasingly unstable region, it is questionable how long Amman will be able to support the US’ disastrous policies and maintain control over its own population. What is apparent, however, is that should the Hashemite regime attempt to swallow Palestine again, they do so at their own peril."
I can only think you cling to your version to maintain the notion of a continuous tangible Palestinian state throughout this period or to maintain the simple clear and unequivocal singular bad guys, Israel. Denying the machinations of Jordan against the facts doesn't help the cause of Palestinian nationalism.
In the same way the same indigenous people can have a state within a state like the PLO had in Jordan. Jordan as a country occupied and annexed the WB. There were those who 'agreed' to the occupation but no government did so and no genuine will of the people can be said to have concurred. To say they annexed themselves is only correct if you class 'themselves' as those allied to Abdullah, namely those within his influence.
As to keeping the goal of Palestine's final settlement alive, Black September's regrettable events are one illustration of exactly what Jordan's idea of a final settlement of Palestine’s just case was, that being "the West bank is an inseparable part of Jordan, and its inhabitants are Jordanian citizens." King Hussein.
The PLO was an organisation of Palestinian liberation from Jordan's claim on the WB as much as Israel's occupation.
"..when its union with the Hashemite Kingdom was dissolved"
You mean by union the Jordanian occupation before annexation?
"perhaps my senses are heightened "
No, they're not. You just misunderstood what was written.
"Militarily and politically those rockets have been a disaster for Palestinians."
Exactly. If they had any kind of guidance system on board Hamas would be better off programming them to immediately turn round and land in Gaza. That would draw the world's attention to the conflict and according to idiots wouldn't be any significant threat to human life. It would save Israel money and help vent the frustrations of Gazans who can't turn their hands to anything other than launching rockets to cope with having Jews next door to their Iranian garrison.
"The rockets fired by Hamas have no military significance. Their sole aim is to focus world attention on the situation. It is a classic Gandhian strategy, not – as you well know – a realistic threat to the safety of Israeli citizens."
They seem to have got the attention of the world in the past week or so. Nice job Hamas! Fundamentalist publicity at its finest. Now the world knows that Israel is killing your military and collaterally a number of civilians because you keep firing rockets at it.
"The disengagement was a redeployment of settlers and troops to the West Bank. It was not, as you imply, some kind of benevolent gesture for peace."
Hamas still chose to use the freedom of the disengagement to upscale attacks against Israel. It doesn't matter what Israel's motives for disengaging were unless disengagement was itself a direct provocation which you seem to be fancifully implying.
"Hamas requested a truce that would extend to the West Bank. The Israelis declined.
I don’t think Hamas wants to keep getting their asses kicked. They never win because they don’t have the capacity to win."
Exactly, that is winning for Hamas, a military victory. As Israel could destroy Gaza it's safe to assume that winning for Israel is something different to Hamas' idea.
Israel could 'win' in 2 weeks if they went by you and Hamas' definition of the term. Why this means Israel has to indefinitely suffer rocket attacks is something you can answer I presume. Do you approve of Hamas' rocket resistance in the face of the evil Israelis? If you do, don't bother trying to score points about your assumptions of my level of compassion for human life.
"End the occupation and then you’re complaints about the rockets is valid."
I must have missed the bit where Hamas said they will stop the rockets if the occupation ends. And there was plenty of violence against Israel pre-occupied territories and disengagement in 2005 has resulted in more rocket attacks not a starting block towards peace and Gaza independence.
One rocket is enough.
"“Hamas” is being used as an epithet to describe all Palestinians."
As much as I respect your activism with the Human League this is just like saying that criticism of Israel is actually anti-semitism. If 'they', the people of Twitter, wanted to trend bigotry towards Palestinians why dress it up in metaphor?
To say that everyone tweeting on the Hamas bumper sticker trend is sublty manipulating the media to imply a hatred of all Palestinians (all arabs?) is as implausible as saying that everyone on the IDFbumper sticker trend are anti-semites.
"Ask Me About My Exploding Grandchildren"
This is referring to Hamas' use of children (or the propaganda they use involving children) in it's bombing operations, if that isn't a target for ridicule then perhaps you should make it a target of your outrage.
"...mostly among people who despise Palestinians (and Arabs in general) and think it’s funny when Israel kills them."
Why are we supposed to be outraged that Hamas is being made fun of in the bumper sticker tweets? None of the ones quoted above are making fun of civilian Palestinian or Arab deaths. The tweets quoted are all about Hamas, and believe it or not, it seems that a majority of people don't believe that Hamas are the good guys. much to your chagrin it seems.
"So Palestine for the Jews, England for the Welch and the English back to the Angle (London can be relocated to the vicinity of Hamburg). This is utterly insane. "
Along with Israel for the Arabs I presume?
Greta Berlin and the BPP being good examples of the wrong people caring about Palestinians sharing a good example of a nasty disposition. Concentrate on the right people if you want, you're in the wrong thread for that though.
"The thousands of words devoted to this and the prior threads concerning the transgressions of Greta into the depths of anti-Semitism by a host of articulate commentators seem more than a little overwrought when compared to the collective guilt we all share for the reality of what is happening every day in Palestine."
Stop trying to deflect the issue. It's perfectly valid to discuss what she did considering how serious it is. The reason there is so much discussion is because of the suspicion that this is a more common disposition than just her. Or, more particularly in view of your contributed word count, the desire to disprove that suspicion.
I imagine you'd probably be keen to object when the "collective guilt" of the Holocaust is used to deflect from what you consider Israeli crimes.
"I see the piling on Greta – whatever her transgressions – then Ann Wright (who had no transgressions we know of, other than being on the board of FGM) – as symptomatic of some larger, if somewhat hidden – effects that are happening in the background."
You mean groups like the extreme right Greater Union Party being on board the Mavi but kept in the background of the movement because they are of similar dispositions to Greta Berlin?
As if that's going to happen, what Hostage posted doesn't have to be taken as insensitive or an attempt to muddy the waters to distract from Greta Berlin's "views" so why should anyone here do so?
What he posted wouldn't come into question here if this Free Gaza racism thing wasn't going on.
"bing bong, i will answer you after you first link to an msm source (quoting nasrallah) confirming nuts “dedicated to eliminating Israel” allegation."
That's ok, I'll continue to believe that they, like you and whoever else said so here that they want Israel eliminated. If you are for eliminating Israel and they are not, I guess that makes Hezbollah a neutral organisation, doing a difficult job the best they can...high five guys!
When did they say they do not want Israel eliminated?
Oh, it was a private conversation put out there by mistake? Ok, that's not so good
"Clarification: The State of Israel implicitly recognized the problem when it adopted The Nazis and Nazi Collaborators (Punishment) Law, 5710-1950. "
"I am not a Holocaust denier. And I am not a supporter of the video that I posted, nor would I ever have been. It was, in fact, an example of propaganda that is EXACTLY what I and others are horrified over. The video (although I didn't watch it then) seemed like the kind propaganda that our group was discussing. And I passed it on because of the title."
Which is it, a recognised problem or horrifying propaganda? Or just a little bit thrown in (admittedly with some relevance to the general topic) but in the first order, there to take some of the edge off the Greta Berlin anti-semitism saga?
Me too, Greta's views are obviously a position she has taken in view of Israel's crimes. Refreshing to see someone with responsibility in the anti-Israel movement put them out in the open and not just people without any significant position voicing them here on MW.
Here's to the next tweet of truth!
"To me that whole sensitivity to “anti-semitism” is over the top as compared to all the other egregious incidences of racism in the world..."
"i think americans are programmed to being more fearful of accusations of anti semitism than being accused of racism, even tho it is the same thing, bigotry."
Why, because of the Israel lobby?
Obviously you've been programmed along other lines, until told differently by the site owner when suddenly you remember that "because racism is racism...we should not ever compromise"
Haven't you noticed that this thread is all about distancing yourselves from racism?
But isn't it true that anti-Semitism is sometimes fuelled by Israel's actions as you and Woody(?) and someone else commented above? Although "racism is racism" isn't some racism caused by things like this and therefore not just a product of unfounded hate for an ethnic or religious group but hate of the actions of a group naturally spilling into hate for the group seen to be doing those actions? Could it be that a good gauge of Israel's crimes...
"Especially the racism of the very ones doing, promoting and excusing the atrocity Israel"
....is the amount of anti Jew hatred held by anti-Israel activists, and the amount of fear of being accused of anti-Semitism in America created by the Israel lobby?
"i think americans are programmed to being more fearful of accusations of anti semitism"
So that means I can say that I think in Britain people are far more conditioned to be fearful of accusations of islamophobia, especially after the London bombings of 2005?
Thanks for that, I can't find anything to disagree with in that post.
Heartening to hear such sentiments Freddy, hopefully see more of the same in future from you and others on MW.
"And I told you where you can go do more research if you want to dispute the claim."
I don't need to substantiate the disputation of an initially unsubstantiated claim. It pretty much does it itself.
I don't phone up Buzz Aldrin when someone claims the moon is made of cheese. I just get on with my day.
"I went to your link. Sorry my friend, the waiting game will end. The people of Israel will realise that the world thinks their country is a pariah and they’ll want change."
My point was MW has to actively state that Israel will reach a point where it will change, (as you put it) usually on MW that change entails the end of Israel. I'm not sure if when you say change you mean the end of Israel or something more constructive like an effort on Israel's part for a 2SS but its along the same lines of argument. Namely you have to assert (and you've just done it right on cue) an absolute faith in this change or the MW position commits itself to an ongoing Palestinian suffering.
"Really good that you showed your true colours though. Status quo. Play the waiting game. Nice. Good to know….."
No, read it again and tell me where I stated I support such a position. C'mon there was almost a civil discussion breaking out there.
**and can a mod make a decision on my post that's been awaiting moderation for a while, thanks.
"And told you to do your own research. Go, piss off."
But it's your claim, I shouldn't have to do research to support a claim you can only weakly substantiate with one example, namely, Rules of Engagement.
"I saw the film in the theater, first run, in 2000."
You remembered the year Rules of Engagement came out after 12 years? Unless some other associated event has made that trip to the movies memorable I'd say you've been getting your movie facts on the google pipe again.
"Why does everyone talk about Cast Lead without mentioning Operation Oil Stain, which preceded Cast Lead."
I think there is some confusion over the correct terms in use according to the various viewpoints, languages, perceptions of event used and subscribed to throughout and after the conflict. Oil Stain is often autotranslated as Oil Slick. Plus Hamas abandoned the term "oil stain" once Cast Lead was underway renaming it to (the closest, albeit supremely clunky translation being) operation boomerang effect. It's a sad yet telling fact that not even the name of the conflict can be agreed upon by the various political actors involved.
"Your kind never do."
Hey! you got something right!
"Jud Süß is so over the top, it is nearly comical. No one who isn’t already infected with antisemitism is likely to be so as a result of the film."
Like The Innocence of Muslims then? Its so over the top, it is nearly comical. No one who isn’t already infected with Islamophobia is likely to be so as a result of the film.
But why are so many people getting enraged about it in that case?
Oh, hang on....let me guess, its different somehow, just like Rules of Engagement is somehow the same as Jud Süß.
"Israel destroyed? You really are reaching here. That’s not the reason for Mondoweiss, the reason people post here or indeed the reason stand up for Palestinian rights."
In all seriousness, is that really true? I wouldn't have a problem with MW if that were the case. I'd be interested to know if you really think that MW is genuinely looking for a fair solution (and of course therein lies the rub in what defines that) because the totally one sided demonisation of Israel isn't conducive to a resolution like that.
I think that this site is a small part of, yet very good example of why Israel is able to justify intransigence on certain issues and equate that hatred of the Jewish state with the extensive history of hatred of Jews. Whether it's hostility toward Israel from Arab nations or MW it's still hostility, and hostility inspires the defensive.
I said the other day that this site appears to be an all or nothing answer to the ME. That's not right, in my opinion (for Israel or the Palestinians) and is the essence of what is wrong with this site.
link to mondoweiss.net
"Google, hell. I saw it in the theater. Got my money back, too."
And did you read Reel Bad Arabs when you got home?
"No reasonable man trust israeli media about anything, ever."
I found this an informative read.
link to haaretz.com
So the incidents catalogued by Breaking the Silence and reported in Haaretz should not be trusted then?
I'm assuming you think Breaking the Silence is an Israeli propaganda attempt aided by Haaretz to pretend that it's ex military can address uncomfortable issues?
“No one here is obligated to condemn Palestinian fostering of hatred so long as they themselves or the general thrust of the anti-Zionist zeitgeist created at MW does not itself reflect such hatred.
It does, in spite of you saying it doesn’t. Any why shouldn’t it? MW (like the governments of many surrounding nations) can hate Israel and aim for it’s destruction ostensibly ‘on behalf of’ and with as much intensity as the Palestinians “should hate their oppressors”. If what is said is true, I would have thought.
What makes you think MW wants a solution that doesn’t see Israel dismantled to the point that the Jews of the world cannot rely on the protection of it’s own country?
“Whereas, the Israeli textbooks are based on distorted history, stereotypes and lies designed to instill Zionist social engineering in each subsequent generation if Israeli Jews.”
So the answer to this is to be as biased as possible in the opposite direction? I would have thought the answer would be to find the truth. Not distort things by as much as is claimed was originally distorted in a perverse attempt to redress the balance.
And yes, I know you think you are telling the truth and the only fair minded rational reaction to this truth is to demonise an entire country. Very good, carry on. If you find yourself demonising an entire country or anyone defending the right of Jews to defend themselves then it’s only natural to assume everything is working out well and your views are sound.
“Any rational person…isn’t going to stir shit up over something as academic as whether the Palestinians are adding fuel to the inferno. The inferno is the Israeli’s doing because it is the Israelis who are colonizing and occupying Palestinian land – not the other way around.”
I don’t support the occupation as I’ve said before. I don’t agree with your analysis that it’s a colonial military racist invasion either.
“A nationalist ideology that is inherently destabilizing and ‘others’ the surrounding non-tribe members and can only be maintained through deception, lies, PR, tons of money and guns.”
It’s nationalist because the Jews should have a nation from which they can protect themselves. If that idea is only reserved for others in your opinion then that’s just great sunshine, good job. This protection also requires money and guns.
"Jews don’t deserve a country because religions don’t deserve countries."
Jews have been persecuted as a religion and a race. Perhaps you have an idea on how to stop that in future that doesn't require Israel to exist. Perhaps demonise them on the internet only with things like accusations of Holocaust exploitation but have a firm written guideline policy of only moderate swear words and no violence in real life?
“It is curious that you are also implying that there are few anti-Arab and/or anti-Islamic hate in American movies. Cept’ for the ones we ‘google’ of course.
You can also Google ‘Reel Bad Arabs’ or take off your Zio-Blinders you blithering tool. Lol”
No I’m not implying that, you dirty sh*t-witted gravy brained fecker. I said Woody’s notion of anti-Arab Hollywood movies was not as voluminous as he claimed and at their worst were not as bad as the depths reached by Nazi propaganda films. It’s obvious he had to google the term ‘anti arab films’ to provide even a really weak example.
The google result link he followed also mentions Reel Bad Arabs. I guess you've gone the same route as well in a failed attempt to provide examples in defence of your equally gifted and brave co-googling hero.
Are you going to similarly write off Israeli media, such as Haaretz, when they publish stories that you agree with? Or will it suddenly turn into irrefutable evidence straight from the horse's mouth in that case?
"Because Hollywood and American media in general, are, themselves, bigoted against Arabs and Muslims."
Like in that Rules of Engagement movie you googled.
You mean Cast Lead, the war that severely curtailed the number of rockets being fired into Israel?
"And if you’re asking for more, go look at Jack Shaheen’s book on the subject."
I'm asking you because you claimed there is a torrent of Hollywood anti-Arab films over the past 100 years equal in strength to that of the Nazis filmed propaganda. All you've come up with is Rules of Engagement.
link to rogerebert.suntimes.com
And I suspect you've come to that conclusion by googling the term "anti arab films" and picking the first title that you've seen on the results page. It's the 4th one down and it links to a Wikipedia page on anti-Arabism.
link to google.com
"Oh, shut up."
Probably won't be shutting up.
I have said I'm not Jewish and not Israeli before here. Why I had to do so and why you people seem to need to know this and make it such an issue is a tricky one to answer.
"I was merely making the point that it is easy for you to be satified with a system that doesn’t make you the constant butt of prejudice and bigotry."
It was a safe bet that I'm hardly going to be unhappy about not being negatively discriminated against.
Another one of your wrong presumptions is that I'm satisfied with a system that is prejudiced against others. Stating I preferred freedom of speech and a more advanced recognition of human rights.... "I’d rather have the Western problems associated with the conflict between anti hate speech laws and freedom of speech laws than have neither as found in many of the the non democratic, oppressive nations you’ve obviously romanticised"
....should have informed you of this.
"Please go piss off."
And calm down petal, if I'm in the wrong you should easily be able to show where I'm in the wrong with a modicum of civility. Unless you are some kind of idiot or something.
They're not equally as bad though are they? If your honest. For once.
“No, I don’t think any private site is obliged to give a balanced view.…. it’s the same with Mondoweiss.”
I didn’t say it was obliged to.
“My point was that Mondoweiss provides news and information about Israel’s occupation of Palestine. By nature it’s not going to provide a flattering narrative of Zionism or an unflattering view of Palestinians. That’s what you asked for. It’s not going to happen.”
I know it’s not going to happen, but it provides a lot more than news and information about the occupation and it’s all with the aim of demonising the entire country of Israel in every possible way it can find, even down to printing stories about individual Israelis who are racist idiots as if that is indicative of the entire nation.
“The one thing I can say about Mondoweiss is that the reporting is by and large accurate and fair…I generally can’t say the same for Zionist sites of a similar style as the Zionist narrative and history is so steeped in propaganda and falsehood its not even real.”
I disagree with your personal opinion, MW isn’t fair and as you’ve already admitted, it’s reporting isn’t accurate because it doesn’t address both sides fairly like the BBC’s remit. Equally it’s the anti-Israel sites like this that are steeped in propaganda as well as the Zionist ones, you just don’t think they are because you agree with the propaganda.
“Sorry? Jews need a country to go to? What on earth are you talking about…Why do they need somewhere to go when they’ve largely assimilated into societies as they have done for hundreds of years…It’s not 1938 you know.”
Did all that anti-Semitism just evaporate then? The reason it’s not 1938 is because thankfully there is Israel. If there wasn’t who are the Jews supposed to rely on to protect them? People like you? And to use your argument, if the Jews have assimilated into societies why can’t the Palestinians do the same, it’s not as if there is a shortage of Arab countries they could go and assimilate into instead of demanding their own country.
“I would hope that antisemitism would be dealt with firmly in the nation it occurs as all racism should be.”
Thanks, your hope is worth nothing
“Your argument is null and void unless you want to include anger some people feel about what Israel currently does.”
“Israel has made a two state solution all but impossible unless they’re going to clear out the settlements and get back to the 1967 borders. Can you see that happening? It’s going to be one state and hopefully the end of Zionism, but not the end of Jewish people living in the region.”
I don’t think I’ll take your assurances that a one state solution won’t be the end of the Jews living in the region. All it takes is a government that isn’t the present one to achieve a 2SS.
“And warranted or not, you played the anti Semite card here:
‘It’s hate for a whole country all dressed up as compassion so the right kind of people (namely not Stormfront anti-Semites) can post here in comfort.’”
So even if it’s warranted pointing out something is anti-Semitic is wrong? I thought “playing the anti-Semite card” itself meant that it wasn’t warranted and was the problem?
So what do you equate “hate for a whole country” with if that country is Israel and it isn’t anti-Semitism? I explicitly said MW shys away from the Stormfront types of anti-Semitism, indeed I think most here would be moderately appalled by that kind of bigotry. But whatever you call the kind of state of mind that actively permits hate for an entire nation, it's in full view here and it most certainly isn't limited to hatred of Zionism. Hating an entire country...terrible business really, whatever you call it.
“Don’t you get it? It’s not hate for Jews, and it isn’t even hate for Israel. It’s hate for what Zionism does.”
It’s hate for Israel.
“I see a better future based in mutual respect and tolerance. Does that make me a bad person?”
No denying the Jews the right to a country makes you a bad person.
The claim of fraudulent anti-Semite claims seems to be yours, you're always saying it. Along with calling anyone not in the destroy Israel gang a Hasbara troll. Its awfully clever of you.
Quite right, and don't forget there is nothing stopping Hamas from collecting evidence arresting and putting these people on trial before or after an attack against Israel. Well nothing in theory anyway.
"Here, I assume you are Jewish, although you haven’t stated that you are or not, as far as I know. If you’re not, then replace them with whatever stereotypes about you that you would find most insulting…"
Is someone stupid enough to wrongly presume to know someone else's ethnic background a stereotype?
I would not like to be depicted as that, that's for sure.
"Rules of Engagement."
You mean? link to en.wikipedia.org
The worst anti-Arab film-making from Hollywood, the "sludge pit of anti-Arab and Islamophobic bile" as bad as one of the heights of Nazi motion picture anti-Semitic propaganda Jud Süß?
Rules of Engagement??
If that is equal to Jud Süß are there any Hollywood films that are anti-Arab but even worse?
Rules of Engagement???
If as you say "Hollywood produced endless streams of movies like Jud Süß or Der Ewige Jude" but the anti-Arab equivalent there must be more than Rules of Engagement right?
Even just off the top of your head you should be able to name some right?
Rules of Engagement......:-)
"Last time I checked, Mondoweiss wasn’t the BBC and doesn’t have a duty to offer both sides of a story. Neither do any of the Israel apologist sites, but we all know where we’re going to get a more honest overview from.
Perhaps you could also lobby the Israel apologist / Islamophobe / Zionist websites and ask them to publish articles such as this one. Just so things can be even handed and fair eh?"
I see, you're under no obligation to have any kind of balance to more accurately report the issue (like the BBC would) and you don't want any kind of balance in the same way that Zionist websites don't want any kind of balance?
So you're essentially carrying the same level of bias as the Zionist websites just with an opposing narrative which you admit cannot possibly be as honest and accurate as the BBC which has a duty to present both sides impartially?
That's essentially my view of MW too, the difference being I don't think that's a good thing.
"Whilst Zionists see Israel ending when...."
Sorry, the Jews will always need their country to go to, with its Arab population living in equality and at peace with an independent Palestinian nation next door preferably.
"Oh, and the anti-Semite thing: Don’t even try that here. Very cheap and tawdry."
Where have I mentioned anti-Semitism where it wasn't warranted? When I had to point out that someone used the term Yid the other day?
"Yes, it is. Look at Hollywood. Again, a sludge pit of anti-Arab and Islamophobic bile no better than any of the things you’re talking about."
Which Hollywood films are as Anti-Arab as the Nazi’s Jud Süß was antisemitic?
Spot on. Never mind that the textbooks are available to see for yourself or what's written in the State Education Law dating back to 1953, or asking a teacher or pupil from Israel about the curriculum, or even just Googling it. Just imagine what they teach Jews about Palestinians. Presumably behind the basketball court, in secret, when nobody is looking. At night.
"He also loves to make his buffoonish characters spew lots of anti-semitic garbage. I’ve started noticing this tactic in many movies and TV shows, too. It’s become such a cliché; it’s a lazy way for Zionist writers to brand the ‘bad guy,’ like the old Western villain in his ubiquitous black cowboy hat."
You have to support Zionism or be a Zionist (in this case a Zionist writer) to tactically think/show anti-Semites as bad? And why are you watching so many movies and TV shows written by Zionists? Along with their "anti-Semitism signifies bad" cliched narrative devices what other Zionist madness are you exposing yourself too?
"but that all the world’s worst villains share Jew-hatred as a universal (evil) value."
Darth Vader? He did freeze Harrison Ford (Jew) in that block of black concrete at the end of The Empire Strikes Back I suppose.
"It also reinforces the belief that anti-semitism is widespread, when true AS is exceedingly rare in the ‘real’ world"
Is true anti-Semitism like “legitimate rape"? Luckily we live in more enlightened times where Islamophobia isn't widespread either. Hang on....let me take a wild stab in the dark here, it is right?
"There’d be no Israel without it…but then that’s pretty much the ambition of most who post here, isn’t it?"
Hits the nail on the head, I'm sure nobody here wants Palestinian suffering to continue but in the first instance it's a will to see Israel end from most who post here that must facilitate that, no alternative.
It's hate for a whole country all dressed up as compassion so the right kind of people (namely not Stormfront anti-Semites) can post here in comfort.
"We’re equally disgusted at Palestinian fostering of hatred."
I don't see that expressed here, it's usually written off as the natural reaction to being oppressed as per Woody above.
"Yes, it’s unfortunate that the oppressed react to their oppression by hating their oppressors.....Maybe if the israelis didn’t want to be hated,...."
"The israelis have oppressed, tormented, terrorized and committed the most horrible of crimes and sins against these children. How do you expect them to react?"
When has MW posted a story like the above video with similar sentiments from an Arab about a Jew/Israeli? and what were/would be the accompanying comments expressing disgust in any form other than a preamble setting forth a lecture on the 'mitigating circumstances'?
I'd rather have the Western problems associated with the conflict between anti hate speech laws and freedom of speech laws than have neither as found in many of the the non democratic, oppressive nations you've obviously romanticised from the comfort and protection of the former.
"And this material you speak of is matched by the daily stream of anti-Arab propaganda throughout Israel and the west."
No it isn't because (in very broad terms) Israel and the other democracies in the West have various laws against incitement to racial hatred and similar that are not present in many Arab countries whose position on human rights is far weaker.
Are you saying that such anti hate speech legislation in the West doesn't also apply to Arabs or Muslims?
"Hell, Hollywood has only produced one or two films in 100 years that weren’t as Anti-Arab as the Nazi’s Jud Süß was antisemitic."
Star Wars and Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium?
"In other parts of the world 10 year old boys talk about cars and tractors rather than tanks."
All over the world kids also play with toy guns and tanks. In Israel they also talk about cars and tractors
"And if a Palestinian child said: “I picture a dead Jew and that makes me happy” it would be Exhibit A on how the Arabs are irredeemably antisemitic or some similar garbage."
Wouldn't exhibit A (whether irredeemable or not) be the daily stream of published/broadcast and widely available anti-Semitism throughout the Arab world? Or has that all stopped now?
"are you suggesting the sports ministry is anti semitic? seriously, you’re sounding unhinged."
No, I'm telling you I don't live in Israel. For the second time in 2 days for some reason.
"and what, pray tell, is the point of copy/pasting “You live in a state where Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry. ” if you do not address the topic?"
I did address the topic, it's not relevant to a discussion about Israel though as I said.
"Apparently Bing Bong doesn’t want to divulge his (or her) national...."
Well, you see I do what I want. Why is this such a issue round here? Hostage assumes I live in Israel, I don't, some other guy assumed I was a Jew the other day, I'm not. Could it be possible that a goy non Israeli can spot nonsense being posted about Israel without being a part of the conspiracy?
"This is a standard hasbarist method: focus on one small peripheral statement made by a political opponent and worry it to death with the hope that the audience will forget the big picture. Bing Bong picked the wrong crowd in which to play this game."
Saying that a majority of Israeli children get an ultr-orthodox education is quite a big statement. When Hostage said this I replied in very concise terms it wasn't. All Hostage had to do was 10 mins of reading to find that he was mistaken. As it appears he cannot do this, or indeed take a telling such is his dogmatism I had to do it go to some lengths to force him from his original position. If you don't want the truth either that's fine, if you don't want the truth and dress it up as a hasbara failing of mine then that too is fine.
Are you also under the assumption that most Israeli children are given an ultra orthodox education or do you, like me know that Hostage is wrong to claim that?
"You live in a state where Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry. "
Well discrimination against Jews has a long history and is unfortunately not going anywhere soon but I hardly think it's relevant to what we're discussing.
"You were trolling these threads in first place."
You think pointing out an error such as a 'majority of Israeli kids are given an ultra orthodox education' is trolling. I think saying something so obviously untrue and biased in the first place is more like trolling. Scrambling around trying to fudge the issue afterwards even more so.
LOL as much as you want it doesn't make an ultra-orthodox education. Hopefully this minister will be not have a job for long along with the rest of the current gvmt and a different one will return to the situation where these trips don't happen.
"Education Minister Gideon Sa'ar rebuffed a teachers' protest concerning planned school trips to Hebron, telling Israel Radio on Monday that the only issue with such excursions is that they haven't been taking place in the last forty years."
If you want to snuffle around for individual truffles like this then that is of course up to you, unless you have something that shows a majority of children are given an ultra orthodox education I'll probably not bother responding to this type of thing. If you find other examples of biblical justifications being taught to children please take it as read I most probably disagree with those also.
"The demographic studies that you cited don’t really address that point at all."
Yes, the reason for that is in my last post.
“Incorporating Judaism and Zionism into Israeli public schools”
Is not an ultra orthodox education.
"Isn’t Israel, from a demographic standpoint, moving decidedly in the direction of greater religious fundamentalism,"
Yes, not good for anyone sane I would have thought.
"I provided a citation which backed-up exactly what I had said.
You responded that the author was probably lying or meant to say something else. Unfortunately, your lie detection skills are no better than your reading comprehension skills (less than spectacular)."
It is not the case that “Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education” as you clearly said. Now claiming that what you meant was something different according to one subsequently cited opinion piece, "In the first grades now – among those defined in Israel as Jews – a majority is once again being consolidated."
Are most Israeli children already being given an ultra-Orthodox education like you said or are they not?
Don't try and weasel your way out of this question by creating clauses and caveats that you've scraped together from an article you've been forced to find and cite after the fact because someone who knows better, and indeed knows educators in Israel has challenged your lie. Anything other than a yes or no answer will of course be further obfuscation unless accompanied by some sort of proof otherwise.
"In the first grades now – among those defined in Israel as Jews – a majority is once again being consolidated”.
This as it stands is untrue. There is no religiously educated majority at present among this demographic that is being consolidated. Again, and this refers to the demographic of 1st grade Jews "Most remarkable is the rise in Ultra-orthodox education; roughly one quarter of Hebrew-speaking children (or a little under one-fifth of the total population) now start primary school in this stream."
It may be the case that the author is lying to help their opinion piece convey what the author believes. It’s probably the case that the author is saying that a consolidation of a future majority (based on demographic predictions regarding the ultra-orthodox baby boom I cited in studies and present in the reports in the media as such you claim to have seen) of 1st grade Israeli Jews being taught an ultra-orthodox education is in effect now through the various educational accommodations such as subsidies the state provides for this type of education, as well as being consolidated by the claim of an increasingly right wing Israeli climate that is the authors main point. To sum up. a majority is currently in the process of being built and is being consolidated for the reasons given.
Either reading of this part of the opinion piece is different to what you said. You decided you meant the former reading (the present existing majority is being made stronger). This is an untrue claim, and again does not ‘back-up exactly what [you] had said’ which had nothing to do with the demographic mentioned in the article but “most Israeli children”
To avoid any confusion the second mention of majority, shows the author is clearly talking about the subsidizing of and the kind of education being taught to a majority among those being educated among the ultra orthodox...
....“The country is funding and subsidizing religious or Haredi education for most children. And not moderate religious education. Among the vast majority, boys and girls study in separate classes, never see a secular person, and receive a racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal education,”
...not that most 1st grade Jewish children are being educated religiously with a subsidy.
To take the position as you did that a majority of 1st grade Jewish Israelis are being given a religious education means that they are also being taught in this way, separate classes, no contact with the secular, racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal. Clearly at odds with the studies I cited, at odds with everyday common knowledge of Israel and another point of evidence that the author is using (specifically) the word consolidated in a less than clear (although most probably not deceptive) manner. On this last point my comprehension of English is indeed better than the author's use of the language.
Your initial lie has been backed up by something that does not actually refer to what you said and is itself, at best a misuse of words and at worst a lie.
If this is your level of intractability on a minor error how many other unfeasible mistaken opinions of yours have you shined up, usually with a seemingly never ending bucket of legislative and regulatory polish?
"No, I cited a Ha’aretz article by Sefi Rachlevsky. "
Well actually yes, you actually said word for word "Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education."
And only cited the article after I said you were wrong.
I've cited demographic studies from Israel and the OECD.
"Most remarkable is the rise in Ultra-orthodox education; roughly one quarter of Hebrew-speaking children (or a little under one-fifth of the total population) now start primary school in this stream."
Why do you lie?
"As you’ll recall, I cited a Haaretz article. It’s hardly the only example of media reports in recent years about the boom in births among the ultra-Orthodox Jews of Israel and the impact on the education system."
I don't recall your claiming anything about an ultra orthodox baby boom. You claimed that a majority of children in Israel are given an ultra orthodox education.
Which is untrue.
"I’m an anti-Zionist, but I don’t try to use bullshit and bombast to prove that there were no religious or secular Zionists whatever in Palestine before the era of Herzl."
You tried to use bullshit the other day to prove that the vast majority of Israeli children are being given an ultra-Orthodox education.
"It's 365 days a year of working and serving and you can never be alone. That's why Prince Philip got a urinary tract infection. He couldn't even go when he needed to. But that's the deal."
Well we all have jobs, sometimes some of them mean we are unable to go to the toilet every single time we need to. I'm sure all the people who have a work related illness or injury in Britain on an NHS waiting list are all overjoyed to contribute (without choice) some of their wages to giving Prince Philip the absolute very best medical and support care in the world. It's just a shame that these ungrateful cowardly helicopter pilots didn't try harder to get him to his hospital wing in less than the 35 minutes an ambulance with police escort and whatever necessary traffic control measures would have taken.
link to oyetimes.com
I know someone who had a minor accident on the Balmoral estate. His companion flagged down a speeding Range Rover driven by Prince Philip on one of his days off. He simply looked at them, pointed forward and said "down the track" before driving off again. Thanks!
Klaus, are you some sort of secret sleeper weapon implanted here as an agent provocateur?
It's too good to be true, on the face of it up to speed with the MW message and eager to participate but often just a bit off, just not quite hitting the target and in doing so revealing the WTF'edness present here until someone else has to take time out from demonising Israel to lead you by the hand off to the side for a rest.
And your persona is German too, a disguise made up of a position pointedly removed from the apologies to and rightful support of Israel from today's Fatherland?
I've sussed you Klaus and hereby claim my prize!
I remember I've seen the term used once here (I think) in a discussion about whether the term was offensive or amiable, perhaps someone has a link to the outcome?
I would never use the term, I am also not a moderator at MW. If I were I would not let an offensive term be published. Obviously I wouldn't let a lot of things be published that are on display here.
You'd have free reign though Woody.
"Is the new low level to which debate and discussion on MW has sunk?"
Think of it this way, if they are reduced to; "Individual Israeli says Racist Comment" then MW must be running out of ideas in the 'war of ideas for the Middle East' or whatever euphemism they call their commentary.
I had to point out that the term Yid made it past the moderator the other day.
Why didn't "Individual on MW Makes Racist Comment, Moderator Suspected of being Racist Too" make the front page?
You're allowed to use the term Yid around here?
Your quote from that opinion article isn't true. If it isn't an outright lie the author probably means that a vast majority of ultra orthodox schools are not practising a moderate religious education. I don't know about ultra orthodox schools but I do know that among non orthodox schools it isn't the case that "the vast majority, boys and girls study in separate classes, never see a secular person, and receive a racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal education". It's an outright lie.
"The Changing Face of Israel" was written by Richard Cincotta, a consulting demographer to the U.S. government's National Intelligence Council, and Eric Kaufmann of the University of London."
"In 1960, the [Central Bureau of Statistics] reported that just 15 percent of students in the Israeli primary-school system were either Israeli Arabs or haredim. Now, about 46 percent are. Around 2020, the majority of primary-school students will likely be composed of children from those two groups, each segregated into its own segment of the school system." The authors note that the average number of births for each ultra-Orthodox woman is seven, and the average number for Arab Muslim women is 3.9."
"Prof. Sergio Della Pergola of Hebrew University, an expert in contemporary Jewish demography, said he was familiar with the figures cited in the Foreign Policy article but was not convinced that the article's predictions would prove accurate.
It remains unclear whether ultra-Orthodox fertility trends will remain steady in the coming years, he said, since much depends on state funding for child allowances."
I believe there are moves by the government to avoid this demographic change.
link to ynetnews.com
"A report recently put together by Nachum Blass from the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies.....The two sectors [ulta orth and Arab) together currently make up about half of all nursery school children in Israel."
Israeli Education Policy: How to Move Ahead in Reform, OECD Economics Department Working Papers, No. 781
One fifth is not a “vast majority”
He is known for making facts up.
link to camera.org
And the subsequent discussion here which MW and Hostage played an abetting role to further distort translation.
"Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education."
No they're not.
"The notion that you have a right to seize a land because your distant relatives were “from” that place is utter nonsense."
So at some time in the future (or even now) a ROR for the Palestinians is going to naturally run (or has already run) out?
So a lack of policing in some impoverished Muslim states leads to angry rioting? No other reasons?
"Witness her current ploy of having made herself into a political football — for what’s obviously going to be the losing team. That’s gotta be worth a loss of five years right there."
That prediction has now been proved wrong. I don't believe your other either.
It's self evident that only lip service is paid to a 2SS. Ask those who run the site if they would accept a 2SS tomorrow that lets Israel exist in peace with a Palestinian state next door according to 67ish borders.
If they say they would ask why MW rarely puts forward to any meaningful degree support of this.
I'll try one last time.
"Israel, itself, is an evil....and is premised on Palestinian suffering and practically little else."
Which is why when CW claims Palestinian Suffering isn't the reason Israel is evil I asked what is. He took this position to avoid my argument that went thus,
"You have to hold the position that Israel will soon end or else it violates your central principle of avoiding Palestinian suffering."
...the position being, subscribing to the certainty of the end of Israel as a central argument means addressing a 2SS (or similar short term solution, see above) doesn't have to be on the MW agenda. MW can go on demonizing Israel without attending or supporting any kind of solution such as a 2SS safe in the knowledge that despite not looking for or discussing any kind of workable solution, Israel will end soon anyway. It's a lazy way of facilitating an ongoing hatred of Israel under the guise of compassion for Palestinians. Disgusting really, that Philip Weiss guy should really be ashamed of that.
Woody I will be pleasantly surprised if you can understand this post. If you can't, feel free to get irate and tell me what my problem is again. Try using caps lock for added effect if you want.
I note you don't subscribe to the imminent self destruction theory...
"And unless it changes to something that is non-zionist, it will remain so, forever."
...and have in the past voiced your approval of a solution that doesn't rely on Israel's self destruction.
Good for you.
Quite Easily Done
How does that list not come under the banner of Palestinian suffering?
If the Palestinians are oppressed, and you support the oppressed, you support the Palestinians. Nobody was saying support comes from the act of just being a Palestinian.
If it makes you happy replace 'Palestinian suffering' with 'suffering'. This is a forum concerned specifically with the ME and I/P in particular. And changing the phrase like that won't win you many friends around here.
No wonder you people are counting on Israel's self destruction, you're not likely to bring it about by yourselves are you?
American, read the thread instead of jumping on one sentence with a smug tone.
When you have done so please explain to me what CW means by evil if it isn't Palestinian suffering.
"...the evil is in creating this nation state on someone else’s land, and....Christ, you people are thickheaded."
Who are you addressing? You're quoting me but it is ColinWright and German Lefty who are not qualifying what the evil is.
CW bypasses the Palestinian suffering that you laid out here "....the evil is in creating..." as a means of avoiding the arguments I initially presented to Phil Weiss and his eggtimer that acknowledges the problem of prolonging Palestinian suffering.
If you're addressing me then read the thread properly before posting your hysterical outbursts.
CW said "‘Palestinian suffering’ is indeed a symptom of that evil and that support, but it is the evil itself — and my involuntary support — that is the problem."
What evil is he talking about if it's not the things you (Woody) laid out which all under the banner of Palestinian suffering? It doesn't make any sense.
"Well said, Colin. I feel the same way."
If you can't say why something is evil then how can you call it evil? Because you as you say, 'feel' that it is evil?
Who do you think you are, Ben Kenobi?
"I would say my central principals are that Israel is an act of egregious evil.....Palestinian suffering’ is indeed a symptom of that evil and that support, but it is the evil itself"
What makes it evil then? Can you describe the evilness? or is it just a sort of foggy mist giving off bad vibes?
Hopefully you're not saying that a nation state for the Jews is evil. That's effectively the same as saying that a nation state for the Palestinians is evil unless there is something about Jews that is 'evil'.
Either way your position relies on predicting and having 100% faith in this prediction of the future arising to end whatever 'evil(s)' is currently in effect. Unless you support a short cut like 2SS or war with Iran and the Arabs. Although I'm sure you would ascribe the property of evil to the latter.
Your presidential prediction means we'll have a measure of your soothsaying abilities soon.
ColinWright, your post is demonstrating that your argument relies on making this point. You have to hold the position that Israel will soon end or else it violates your central principle of avoiding Palestinian suffering.
If according to you the war is 3/4 over then by my shaky arithmetic (taking Israel's PR war as beginning in 1948 and in the face of a lack of data ignoring your claims of non uniform acceleration) then Israel will end (in some form as to also end Palestinian suffering) in 2033.
Considering the amount of suffering claimed here in MW is going on, has been going on and is on going I would say that committing to a position whereby another 21 years of similar suffering will be endured is itself a violation of your central principal of reducing/ending Palestinian suffering.
That's why I support a 2SS and as I said to you elsewhere in this thread (moderator permitting) would indeed be supportive of one in 2013.
Mooser. So you believe that Iran is a nuclear threat to Israel's existence? Not the normal view round here.
You're wrong to think I'm an Israeli or in Israel at this time. The Israelis I know are Holocaust survivors and their descendents, all of which manage to live their lives despite the particular national problems that Israel has to deal with.
And, incredibly Mooser, they are all essentially very happy and very productive people. By far the most high achieving people I know, architects, opera singers, musicians, surgeons. These achievements, and in the case of the first immigrant's achievements, initially built from nothing, I would surmise are at least in part a product of their nation and the opportunities it provides.
In the main (there are a couple of exceptions) they are secular opponents of the settlers and the occupation.
For them Israel has indeed liberated them from European hatred. Israelis may be hated by a lot of people, but the alternative for them is no Israel and being hatred as Jews elsewhere. I imagine they'll be sticking with their country thanks, despite your concerns on internal politics and Iran.
Klaus originally said all nationalism was evil. This includes saintly Palestinian and evil Zionist nationalism. Why he can't gallop off is beyond me, I can only conclude he has a self hating horse that despises such behaviour about itself.
"Considering that the Russians were on the winning side, and Germany the loser of WW2, I don’t see why Russia shouldn’t have got to have some fun with East Germany for a while. "
So acquisition of territory as a result of the 6 day war was ok too?
"First, we would have to invade and occupy a country with millions of Jews and enlist enough collaborators to kill the Jews."
You can't do that any more because of Israel,
"You seem to think we don’t do that because of Israel."
Your motivation for doing that in the first place is your business.
Comments are closed.