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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Thanks for linking to a case where the boycott was directed at a private Israeli citizen and thus exposing the true nature of BDS.
There's a difference between the Camp David Accords, which Carter was referring to, and the peace treaty. Look it up.
When was the last time you spoke up for the KKK to have their right to free speech?
No, it's just an expression in Hebrew meaning something like "to give up". He isn't referring to a geographical location. Most Israelis were born in Israel and of them most are of Sephardic ancestry, meaning they have nowhere to "go to" (Do you really see Jews living in Egypt under an Islamist govt.?). Please don't buy this silly Helen Thomas-inspired slogans about Israelis going home. It's the most ridiculous and ignorant thing to say.
Hamas exposes its true colors once more and no commentary from Phil? Can't say that I'm surprised. This is how the Palestinians lose their case again and again.
Danaa,
It's really tiring hearing you getting on your high horse as some self-appointed spokesperson for what the people of Israel are or what they think. Your personal experiences are your own, and others have had very different experiences. There are plenty of Israeli who oppose the settlements, and painting everyone with the broad strokes you do is exactly what you so oppose when we talk about the Palestinians.
Money quote in your soap boxing:
"I am also glad to share what I know about the people who choose to continue to live there as part of what they know very well is an oppressive, theocratic and militarized regime."
Not all Israelis, even if they wanted to, have the means to move elsewhere. And some choose to stay and oppose their government's actions.
Helen Thomas was referring to all Jewish citizens of Israel, within the 1967 borders, when she said they should go back to Europe.
The only one who's using ploys here is you, lyn.
An odd post and an even odder bunch of comments.
"However, the past year in Israel has seen an a significant increase in the number of racially motivated attacks on foreign workers and Palestinians by gangs of Jewish nationalists who seek to ‘cleanse Israel of non Jewish and dangerous elements.’ The problem is reaching endemic proportions as lawmakers have largely remained silent and the crimes continue unabated."
How does a link to Israelis' reactions to the events in Egypt relate to supposed xenophobic gangs? Or a link to a story about Ehud Barak's wife being indicted for employing a foreign worker without a contract or health insurance relate to crimes against foreigners? If anything, this story shows that the state has standard for how foreign workers should be treated.
There are no "hallmarks of Germany" or "jackbooted thugs" in this video. It's a bunch of residents from the poorest neighborhoods of Tel Aviv voicing their socio-economic hardships and incorrectly blaming them on foreigners. The foreigners themselves are free to argue against them, and an Israeli also tries to convince them of their misguided blame.
"Locally made alternatives to Tribe hummus include Bobbi’s, Bitar’s, Wakim’s, and Moshe’s"
What a joke - why is buying products produced in the US, which happens to be occupying two countries at the moment and responsible for civilian casualties of a magnitude exponentially greater than Israel, any better?
Tree, I have other things to do besides fulfill your requests. Besides, have you forgotten I'm a paid Israeli govt. agent - why would you ask me to give you information?
How surprising - if someone agrees with your point of view, they must be a great expert on the ME!
Also, knowing Hebrew and Arabic doesn't exclude knowing and reading relevant English literature. In fact, I speak all three languages, and nonetheless come to conclusions which are different from yours. It must be difficult for you to deal with the fact that not everyone parrots your opinions.
Ceteris paribus, you would know more if you knew the language. People who actually do research learn the languages, so having translated works isn't enough, despite your excuses.
I'm not getting paid by anyone. You might want to get the idea that everyone who speaks Hebrew and Arabic is an Israeli govt. spokesman out of your head; some of us can form our own opinions based on reading enough in all the relevant languages.
Why don't you ask Shmuel if he gets paid by the Palestinians?
I translated part of the headline above, and it's quite clear in its criticism:
"“The identification and understanding Aviram Baruchian exhibited towards the hurt feelings of the La Famiglia group attest more than anything to the low level Beitar Jerusalem has reached this season.”
The rest criticizes the team management for letting these fans control them, and the player for grovelling to the fans and reneging on his statement.
Here's another piece, criticizing the media for not being critical enough, although it mentions that one newspaper organized a petition to have an Arab player signed to the team, while the other clearly refers to this group of fans as racist and violent.
link to the7eye.org.il
You can talk about these countries as much as you like. You'd still have less access to information and by default know less about them than someone who speaks their language.
My Arabic's very good, thank you. I don't have the time to follow the Arab press as much as I'd like to, but I wouldn't pretend to know exactly what's going on in the Arab world simply from perusing headlines in English.
Yes, I agree, and I would hope Beitar were punished more severely for their fans' behavior. Why they're not is unclear - the league management are just too lenient with these issues. I should add, though, as I said above, that racism is a general problem with soccer, and many European teams fail to appropriately deal with their fans.
I also believe that most Israeli soccer fans, who aren't generally on the liberal side of the political spectrum, don't agree with their racism and hooliganism; at least that's the impression you get from reading talkbacks, and from the fact that Arab Israelis play for many teams as well as the national team.
They follow the news in English. It's not the same. As I said above, I don’t think it’s too much to ask people here who pretend to understand the situation in the ME to learn Hebrew and Arabic.
Here's an example. Sorry, it's in Hebrew - I don't think it's too much to ask people here who pretend to understand the situation in the ME to learn Hebrew and Arabic.
I'll translate the first part for you since Google's translation is terrible:
"The identification and understanding Aviram Baruchian exhibited towards the hurt feelings of the La Famiglia group attest more than anything to the low level Beitar Jerusalem has reached this season."
link to nrg.co.il
No, syvanen: Saying that he "apologized to the media" is incorrect, because it implies that the media was upset with what he had said. He apologized to a certain group of fans, and it was reported through the media.
There's a difference between the two, but given that you're working with a small number of functioning neurons, I can see why wouldn't get it.
"The Israeli media didn’t seem to have any issue with this incident, and reported it without any analysis you’d typically see in the US media."
How would you know? Do you speak Hebrew or any other ME language? Do you follow the news from Israel? Like the other blabbermouths on this blog, you don't have a clue.
A. He didn't apologize to the media; he apologized to the group of racist fans. That's a big difference. You should try to get the facts right before talking.
B. Since it took the US hundreds of years to get to the point it is now, after wiping out whole Native American civilizations and enslaving millions of blacks, while Israel has only existed for 60 years, I'd say that Israel is ahead of the US, if anything.
Addressing racism's constant hum in U.S. sports
link to nytimes.com
"We like to talk about how much progress we've made in America. Let's not fool ourselves."
Considering the US still has teams called "Redskins", I'd shut up if I were you.
Other Israeli teams do have Arabs on their rosters, and some play for the national team (e.g., in World Cup qualifying games).
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
This isn't to say that racism is nonexistent, particularly among soccer fans, but using Beitar as an example of the level of racism in Israel is like taking Palin as representative of political discourse in the US.
And what about the fact that the US still has teams named things like "Redskins"? Bottom line - Mr. Weiss is barking up the wrong tree.
Just when you think the level of "journalism" exhibited on this site couldn't be any lower, you find another ridiculous post by Mr. Weiss - the anti-Zionist left's version of Fox News.
Here's the context Mr. Weiss omits, obviously because he doesn't know it and doesn't mind spreading decontextualized information in order to smear:
The racist Beitar fans discussed here are a violent subgroup of a soccer club known for its hooliganism, which targets anyone who doesn't fit their mold. Of course, their racism should be rejected, and various steps have been taken to fight it.
But to discuss them here as if they represent anyone but themselves, while no one would hurl similar accusations against the racist fans of other European soccer teams, is something only a "journalist" like Sean Hannity or Mr. Weiss would do.
Beitar Jerusalem fans suspected of hurling flare at journalist's home
"La Familia was set up in 2005 as a result of dissent among Beitar supporters as to the nature of their desired activity. Its members, who are 16 to 25 years old, attempt to give it an image of underground organization. They are associated with far-right movements, and were sometimes seen among Kahane supporters. The group's violent record led the Beitar management to disavow them. "
Betar Jerusalem Handed Unprecedented Punishment for Fans’ Racism
link to nif.org
"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert Monday condemned Beitar Jerusalerm soccer fans for booing during a pre-game moment of silence Sunday marking mark the 12th anniversary of the assassination of former prime minister Yitzhak Rabin."
link to dw-world.de
"After racist chants in stadiums in Italy and Spain last weekend brought African players to tears, the European Union and soccer's governing body are planning to get tougher on soccer's major problem."
"Beginning in the 1980s, fans of Ajax's rivals escalated their antisemitic rhetoric, chanting slogans like "Hamas, Hamas/Jews to the gas" ("Hamas, hamas, joden aan het gas"), hissing to imitate the flow of gas, giving Nazi salutes, etc.[14][16] The eventual result was that many (genuinely) Jewish Ajax fans stopped going to games."
According to Mr. Blankfort, there are too many Jews in the Senate and too many Jews in Israel. Too many rights for Jews, Mr. Blankfort? Too many Jews in general, perhaps?
You're in great company:
Jean-Marie Le Pen: there are too many Jews in the press
Octavian Goga, Romanian PM most know for stripping Romanian Jews of their citizenship:
"The Jewish problem is an old one here, and it is a Rumanian tragedy. Briefly, we have far too many Jews."
If you're so upset about the representation of other minorities, no one's stopping you from promoting them and encouraging them to run for office.
It has to do with James' statement:
"So why don’t the Jewish people who suffered at the hands of the Russians and the Germans go and create a state at the expense of those people?"
The Jews were, and the ones who were left didn't feel like hanging out with the remains of their families.
Talk about a parallel universe:
"In the case of Dair Alzour, the UN watchdog has more or less ruled out Syria's theory that the uranium came from the Israeli bombs that destroyed the building in September 2007.
And the latest report shows that inspectors are similarly sceptical of Syria's explanation about the provenance of the uranium at the MNSR.
Syria was not providing the necessary cooperation, nor the information or access that would enable the IAEA to confirm Syria's statements regarding the non-nuclear nature of the destroyed building on the Dair Alzour site, the report said."
"Syria has continued to obstruct a U.N. investigation into activities once carried out at a suspected nuclear reactor site destroyed by Israel two years ago, the International Atomic Energy Agency stated in a report issued today."
link to google.com
link to globalsecuritynewswire.org
Chaos, you were the one claiming MRW was recounting facts. He wasn't. Don't change the subject.
Wow, chaos, you're so scary.
Here's my prediction: everyone here will continue blabbering about the issue as if they're experts (not) and as if their opinions matter to anyone but themselves (not, again). Oh, and a peace deal between Israel and Syria will happen long before any settlement with the Palestinians. When they manage to decide who their leaders are, and these don't include religious fanatics who are only willing to settle on short-term ceasefires, maybe a deal can be reached. I'm not holding my breath.
Really? The following is a fact?
"(6) The expulsion from England was because the Jews who were ejected sought to undermine the currency of the country."
How about some context? Some knowledge of history? That's obviously too much to ask for around here.
Sure, James, why didn't they just stay in Auschwitz?
"all Palestinian (including Hamas) have agreed to the 67 borders. "
There's a reason they're only willing to agree to a hudna. "We won't kill you or seek your destruction for 10 years, but after that, everything's fair". Sounds like such a great deal.
"The rest of the land was stolen through conquest."
If you start a war and lose the land, it's not stolen. It's won fair and square. And you don't get to cry foul only after you discover your violence doesn't work.
vr, you never managed to explain where a country the size of NJ is supposed to place its military bases. Besides the fact that most of the bases were not, in fact, constructed on Bedouin "homelands", whatever the latter means (I'll leave it to you to explain what exactly a homeland is for a nomadic people - does it include everything within 10k miles of their trade routes? 100k? Anything they decide on?).
No, they didn't own "the land". There was no state, and in terms of private ownership, they owned a small fraction of it. Do I have rights over the forest that's across from my house? Don't think so, try again.
Great, MRW, when you get to the Russian pogroms and the holocaust let us know. Cause, you know, they happened after that wonderful emancipation.
Great, MRW, now I'm just waiting for you to justify the holocaust, slavery, the destruction of the Native Americans, etc. etc.
Really, what was that homeland? Their safe haven in England, from which they were expelled in 1290? Or maybe Spain, where they were persecuted until they were kicked out in 1492? How about Russia, where they were allowed to live only in certain areas?
Some people choose to ignore history (or just never knew it).
Thanks for proving my point, VR. What we learned from the Holocaust is that Jews are entitled to protect themselves, and unfortunately, they can't trust anyone but themselves to do so.
No, potsherd, Jews weren’t able to live wherever they wanted to in Europe.
Ever heard of the expulsion from Spain? The expulsion from England? How about the Pale of Settlement in Russia?
No, potsherd, Jews weren't able to live wherever they wanted to in Europe.
Ever heard of the expulsion from Spain?
link to en.wikipedia.org
The expulsion from England?
link to en.wikipedia.org
How about the Pale of Settlement in Russia?
link to en.wikipedia.org
There are 1.5 million Arabs in Israel, potsherd. Unless you're living in some parallel universe (which, given the other nonsense you post, wouldn't be all that surprising).
link to en.wikipedia.org
Doesn't really explain Palestinian violence before 1948, does it, chaos? Too bad.
The problem with your analogy is that there are millions of Arabs in Israel and in the West Bank and Gaza. Doesn't really reconcile with a decision to kick all the Arabs out, does it?
The Palestinians (or at least their leadership) thought they were privileged to have all the land of Mandate Palestine, despite the fact that most of it wasn't settled. They adopted violent methods to keep the Jews out (long before 1948), and cried foul only when they failed to kill or drive out all the Jews. Having to deal with the consequences of your decisions is a bitch, huh?
Mr. El-Zabri would have fit in just fine if his parents and grandparents hadn't been so violently opposed to any Jewish settlement in Palestine.
I'm assuming you think bouquets of love and harmony killed 4,000 Israeli soldiers and over 2,000 Israeli civilians in 1948.
potsherd, you might want to try to find better examples. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where the Bahais aren't persecuted.
Israel haven for new Bahai world order
link to bahaisonline.net
link to en.wikipedia.org
Bahá'ís continue to be persecuted in Islamic countries, as Islamic Leaders do not recognize the Bahá'í Faith as an independent religion, but rather as apostasy from Islam. The most severe persecutions have occurred in Iran, where over 200 Bahá'ís were executed between 1978 and 1998,[58] and in Egypt. The rights of Bahá'ís have been restricted in numerous other countries, including Afghanistan, Algeria, Azerbaijan, Indonesia,[84] Iraq, Morocco, and several countries in sub-Saharan Africa
The Jews were considered trespassers in almost every place they decided to settle. I'm assuming your conclusion is that they should have all been killed off. Thanks for clarifying that bit.
"What happened to the Jews a few years earlier isn’t."
Right, because if 2,000 years of history have taught us anything, it's that persecution of Jews is something temporary and negligible.
Here's a fact you should remember: the land to the west of the Jordan currently has ~10 million residents. It had less than 10% of that in 1948. In other words, it could have easily been shared. Who didn't want to share it? Here's a clue: the side that rejected any attempt at partition.
And btw, it's not about paying anyone. It's about having one place in the world where Jews can be guaranteed they won't be persecuted.