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  • The social fabric
    • Some people may go their whole life without ever getting a punch in the face, or even a push or elbow, for what they have said, done, or not done. A lot of that has to do with what halls, sidewalks, roads they had to travel on. OTOH, some people on a timed mission tend to quickly ignore those they intuit will be a waste of valuable time. Nobody has time for everyone possible all the time. Phil does not give enough details here to really judge but Elliot Spitzer does have a personality pattern, same as, say O'Reilly of Pinheads and Patriots fame has one of his own.

  • 'There's a huge amount of anger'
    • Politico: Both OWS & Tea Party are "anti-semitic."

      The Emergency Committee for Israel, a Republican group that's focused primarily on criticizing President Obama's Israel policy, is opening a new front on Occupy Wall Street and the politicians -- notably Nancy Pelosi and Obama -- who have spoken sympathetically of the protests, with a new ad featuring anti-Semitic and anti-Israel signs and incidents into a claim that the events are motivated by anti-Semitism.

      "Tel President Obama and Leader pelosi to stand up to the mob," says the narrator of the spot, which the group says will air in a "substantial" buy in New York and Washington.

      “It’s not surprising that elements of the modern left are anti-Semitic," said ECI chairman William Kristol in a statement. "It is surprising that respectable liberals have praised the protesters while ignoring the anti-Semitism. Liberals have pretended to see nothing hateful and hear nothing hateful, and therefore have said nothing to rebuke their allies. Will they now speak up?”

      The occasional anti-semitic signs at the protests have drawn similar attention to the occasional racist signs at Tea Party events, and have in fact produced criticism and drawn counter-protests within the "Occupy" demonstrations, whose participants include no shortage of Jews.

      The ECI ad is part of a broader conservative push to define the "Occupy" protests -- which polls currently show to be more popular than the Tea Party movement -- by their most extreme elements.

    • Yes, classic liberals and classic conservatives both have long been hoodwinked by the financier system, which is debt-based and partners government with private corporations. There's a reason why both left-leaning and right-leaning TV cable news both dismiss Ron Paul as a kook.

    • Judging by twitters, OWS is well aware of Democratic attempts to hijack the movement in the same way the original Tea Party was hijacked by the GOP--most especially concerning the original Ron Paul followers rage against the financial oligarchy, something Ron Paul himself has been consistent on for decades. Ron Paul's other area of root change is foreign policy--it remains to be seen if OWS will be hi-jacked in this area as, again the Tea Party has been been.

    • The financial oligarchy (Fed, Treasury, Wall St, with appointed representatives in top slots in all enmeshed federal agencies) rules the USA, supported by either main political party in 4 to 8 year cycles. Big Bank campaign donations give nearly equally big dollars to both party's contenders.

      IMF, WB, central banks overseas are part of this matrix.

  • Palestinian bloggers called to join prisoner hunger strike
  • Discussing Palestine at Occupy Boston
    • Concern about being ji-jacked by institutional Democrats, about crystalizing an agenda of prioritized targets, about being trapped by mainstream framing, etc--these are the subject of tweets currently under #OWS hash tag. The I-P issue, not at all, so far; it's clear the system itself is the enemy and so, far the only thing clear to everyone involved is the banking system has to be changed, and these kids are discovering Ron Paul--but hey, the Republican POTUS wannabees even rob sound bites from him. Originally, Tea Party railed against the bankers too, but they have been hijacked by GOP and sent off to tilt at the fear of socialism chimeras. In fact, the Tea party notions originated with Ron Paul followers.

    • Theo, I agree with your assessment.

  • A Presbyterian take on divestment from the Israeli occupation
    • pabelmount, the Jesus-loving fundy women I know don't even know anything about Zionism;they have a personal relation with Jesus, and through that to God; they are very happy their government backs Israel to the hilt, and have told them they would send their children and grand kids to fight in US military for Israel. They accept whatever interpretation of the bible they get in whatever church lady group they belong to; in any case it's a simple matter to them that God chose the Jews and so God wants them to help the Jews no matter what the Jews do. They've told me that they've been down and out, and Jesus saved them in their life and facts are not important as far as the truth is concerned, and they know the truth. They always sincerely hope and pray for me.

  • The 99 percent in DC
    • Kathleen, I empathize with you, and I've come to the same conclusions as you.
      The difference between a cult religion and a traditional religion is just that; the comparative number of babies basically "born into" either at any given time. "Tradition" is a matter of time. Most humans never go far beyond their early childhood conditioning.

      PS: My mother wanted me to be a priest; she said a rosary every night for her entire adult life. She was not a hypocrite. Never harmed anyone.

    • I think these suggestions would be quite helpful: "raise energy taxes, aggressively use market forces and public provisions to bring down health care costs; raise capital requirements for banks; require national service; balance the budget by 2018."

      It's amazing to me that Congress never used the leverage of Medicare/Medicaid so that Big Pharma would cut the price of their pills. The ever increasing price of health services and products could be contained, hence Health insurance would be more affordable, whatever system is used. The notion of requiring those getting government welfare checks of whatever sort to contribute something back to the community is a good one too.

  • Jewish Federations drop JVP leader from 'Heroes' ballot without explanation
    • Huh, some group. Is there a Gentile Federations Of North America? In USA, Canada, or Israel? If so, do they believe in Torah over Western values too? Or is it the reverse? Is that the organization all those Republicans belong to, the ones that keep blurting out "Judeo-Christian" values, and tell us our Founding Fathers based their new country on same? Here I thought most of those old fellows in white wigs were Deists, and all of them were saturated with secularized Enlightenment values from Europe.

      What values were the Nuremberg Trials based on?

  • Operation Enduring Failure: Ten years of war on Afghanistan
    • I keep meeting very nice wholesome elderly females who are very much up on our government's corruption and fraud and very ethical in their personal lives. The have considerable detail on a lot, and are regular internet users. They also happen to be Christian fundies, although not members of any Christian Zionist sect. Very intelligent they are, about a lot, but when it comes to anything Israel, or if you mention the Palestinians' plight at some point, they exhibit an absolute disconnect and immediately tell you God favors Israel and the Jews, and they are ready to send their fellow Americans off to fight for Israel at the drop of a hat. It's disconcerting. After a time I discover they wouldn't recognize a jew anywhere unless he or she sported a large star of David pendant. They've never read anything written by Jews that they are aware of, certainly no literature. And of course they never met an actual Israeli Jew or American Jew that they're aware of. Ditto re Arabs.

      It's freaky. I couldn't convince them to read MW with a crowbar and free pass to Heaven. Ultimately, seems to me they just put their trust in Jesus, who is very personal to each of them. God knows best, Israelis are Jews, God chose the Jews; Christians should follow the Jews, and if they do that, they feel they will have their reward in the next life, which is a certainty to them.

      Many have had pretty good jobs. They are charitable. None have had higher than a high school degree. They seem to be all over the place.

  • Kol Nidre in Cairo. Not
  • The Jewish-Palestinian book of life
  • AP: The NYPD spied on its anti-terror partners
    • It's a disgrace. Imagine if this happened to a pillar of the Jewish American community, say regarding abuse of tax exemption by NGOs funneling fungible cash to illegal settlements. Actually, unlike funds to any other country, all funds to Israel are fungible in Israel. No monitoring whatsoever.

  • Better days will come
  • NYT reviewer: Small group of Bush advisers will take real reason for Iraq war to their (restless) graves
    • Werdine, the mere possibility that Mossadeq could have been overthrown without intervention by CIA due to the many de-stabilizing opposing Iranian factions within Iran at the time does not suggest Mossadeq likely would have been overthrown absent CIA-Brit intervention. Mossadeq controlled the Street. Anyone interested in getting a more objective analysis of the subject than Werdine provides above should go here:

    • Of course you do see the historical narrative totally left out of his long comment discussing the history of the region as it pertains to Iran, right? That's cannot be unintentional.

      Werdine says, "I would love nothing better than for America to busy itself by tending its own garden." So, Mr Werdine, are you voting for Ron Paul? If not, why not? As you know, Paul distinguishes between national self-defense and profitable (to the elite) imperial offense.

    • Werdine: You ignore it was the CIA that overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran & installed the Shah & that this history is directly connected to the holding of a handful of US hostages by Iran back in the day. If you were Iranian, you wouldn't forget or ignore this fact of history. Your furnish no proof or source concerning your allegations of Iranian support of terror. Anyone can look at a map & see Iran is surrounded by hostile US military bases. Anyone can easily discover that Israel constantly threatens Iran's existence, and that Israel has lots of nukes while Iran has none. They can also easily discover that Iran offered to allow full US access to its nuclear energy stockpile so long as the US offered to not obstruct Iran's quest for nuclear energy for domestic civilian utility usage. And, Mr Werdine, you ignored that the US supported Saddam's predatory war on Iran for 8 years and basically killed thousands of Iranian kids with US economic sanctions--"It was worth it" as per M Albright. You also ignore the fact Iran has not instigated a war, preemptive, or preventative, or otherwise, in centuries (unlike Israel, a repeat offender).

      You also ignore that it use to be standard US foreign policy to follow "balance of power" global strategy, but US does the exact contrary with its total support of Israel right or wrong. A real balance of power would dictate that Iran should be viewed as a balancing state in the ME & we should support it.

      If the Mullahs are constantly and publicly antagonistic towards Israel/US, what would you call US/Israel's constant threats against Iran that "all options are on the table?" What would you call US economic sanctions against Iran, the most severe in the world? Why is it evil per se to say "the Zionist regime will vanish from the pages of history," much like the USSR did?

      If you hated the Berlin wall, why do you not hate the Israeli wall? You really didn't say. I lived in W Germany when that wall went up. I was in Berlin when it went up. No Germans benefited from that; no Palestinians benefit from the Israeli wall.

    • DBG, thanks 4 making it crystal clear U don't care about American life, values, or their increasing poverty. We're so surprised.

    • Methinks McChrystal is well aware of the same thing other military brass R aware of, e.g., Petraeus, (BtrayUS, see his Max Boot email)i.e., that our one-sided support 4 Israel puts our troops in jeopardy, ditto Beiden.

    • Job's biological dad agreed to the adoption because the biological mother's family, of German-Swiss ancestry, objected to their daughter marrying an Arab or Muslim or both. Steve Jobs is biologically half Arab, 1/2 German-Swiss in terms of ancestry. Lots of smarts & education on both sides of his family tree.

    • Apparently Bush & his cabinet decided to go to war on Iraq 6 months before 9/11 happened because they sought more stability in access to oil. The Bush regime was unusually filled with oil men devoted to their industry:

      This is not the same as saying Big Oil generally thought it was a good idea to attack Iraq as Shrub did. Nor is it saying Shrub & cabinet could have gotten away with their sale of war to the US public without the Zionists and their fellow-traveling MSM. Perhaps our greatest historical mistake was due to the unfortunate mutual interest marriage of Bush cronies & Zionists. To them, their agenda was America's. The rise of the neocons reminds us of guess what? 9/11 was the match that made it go down well, like the Reichstag fire.

    • Which POV to take on Iraq war pushers--maybe follow the advice here:

      "Dear FRONTLINE,

      My compliments on Bush's War.

      My question...Why did Cheney , Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld want war with Iraq so badly? I believe this is a question that needs to be answered.

      Jonathan White
      Missoula, Montana

      FRONTLINE's editors respond:

      Viewing online the program's first chapter , you'll find an embedded link in the video player (toward the end of this chapter) that links to a letter sent to Clinton in '98 laying out the neoconservatives' fixation on Iraq going back to the 1991 Gulf war. You also can explore many more articles, interviews on this subject in the Video Timeline of the site. See the fourth segment in this timeline. It focuses on Wolfowitz's draft of a new tough foreign policy for America that would deal with Iraq and the rest of the world. It was written soon after the Gulf war."

      Read more:

    • John Bolton never saw a war he didn't like. And he never saw a Palestinian as human. Or any Israeli move he didn't like. Yet Fox News pretends he's a wise man to advise us all. The man is a traitor, a Christian Zionist pretending he's all for what's best for Dick & Jane. The guys is absolutely crazy. When fascism comes to the US it will be wrapped in Bolton's flag and carrying his bible, babbling about that historically recent figment of the imagination: "Judeo-Christian values". Actually, it's already rooted here, which is why Fox News holds Bolton up as America's guru of foreign policy.

    • Unfortunately, thetumta, hasbarabots, trained to divert attention from the facts of negative Israeli conduct, will latch onto whatever label is used when criticizing Israel policy and conduct. Best to give them the labels least subject to the pitfalls of logic by labeling terms.

    • I get your point, seafoid, but it's a mouthful & it's hard enough already to get Dick & Jane to read anything on US foreign policy in the ME. The "Israel right or wrong" crowd is directly implied by "Israel 1st" crowd reference, yes? OTOH, like all human demographies, the US audience is half below average IQ...Maybe your suggestion is better. But, still "Israel 1st crowd" does not beg for hasbara diversion by latching onto the question of what is right, what is wrong?

    • And that's because we have income independent of politics, right?

    • So maybe "Israel Firsters" is a working coinage of the myriad of zealous folk who back the status quo?

    • MRW, I am going through the same thing.

    • My best guess is they would all fold in maybe 60 seconds. These PNAC guys come from highly comfortable areas; they grew up without ever having to deal with street or school bullies. They are all cream puffs quick to be chicken hawks.

    • Hey, the PNAC peeps agree with waterboarding, so why not use it on them?

    • I also practiced law in Chicago, in fact square in the Loop on LaSalle St.
      Although I was in civil law, I remember the adage well, that a lawyer representing himself has a fool for a client. I think Abbas's decision, in the face of a certain US veto, will operate in long term best interests of the Palestinians. But hey, I represented myself in the 20 years I had of post-divorce litigation. I did not represent myself in my original divorce, handled by a top law firm in Chicago.

    • He's all for US going everywhere to war to benefit Israel; he himself was a draft dodger, taking the usual rich kid way out by joining national guard, which did not get sent to the front like they do nowadays. He said he avoided the Nam war as he felt the government then was going to pull out--I have have a number of dead buddies who never had that option. He's got ivy league creds, but seems to me to be a near moron.

    • Interesting that both the tea baggers and occupywallst grass rooters are being slandered as anti-semitic. Anything not originally growing from the top down is anti-semitic? Mearsheimer is an American Patriot. Atzmon is a humanist in that he believes in universal morality/ethics applicable to all humans. No double standards.
      Meanwhile Obamaites planning strategy 2 dilute Republican contenders' "We love Israel more than you" campaign. Number one issue involving both US domestic and foreign policy seems to be who can support the tiny state with nukes & 4th biggest military-industrial complex more? Right here:

    • Hi pabelmont, true and a nuance is that Wolfowitz et al easily convinced them the war would be over in no time and Iraq would pay for it all. My net readings suggest Wolfie was the key lead. Later he was rewarded by getting slot as Prez of WB--without any credentials at all for that job. Wall St is linked hard with our War Biz. Folks protesting there now see it clearly.

  • 'Ready for a Tahrir moment?' - Occupy Wall Street, the 'Arab Spring' and Israel/Palestine
    • Kinda like watching the Jerry Springer wherein Jerry mocks his hapless victims on the stage, who are only too willing to let him, and the audience, usually from the same trailer camps or urban ghettos, cheer Jerry on and diss their cousins who are even more dim, uneducated, and ignorant than they are. Then, each show, Jerry winds it up with a few choice words of abstract humanism, the lesson to be learned for the day.

    • Chaos, plus congress is cutting foreign aid across the board & attaching more strings to what's left--with one exception: Israel, the biggest chunk! See relevant article here today on MW.

    • Time will synthesize the rebellion, which is international, although specific to each target state regime's make-up. It's easy to pinpoint a despot Arab regime, harder to do so in US or UK, or Canada because they have a thicker veneer of democracy; in the USA the rule of the two party system and current campaign finance law form part of the hybrid medusa head of soft tyranny always wrapped in the flag, its rotten wood pole gilded over with humanistic rhetoric.

    • Exactly.

    • hophmi, you ignore the obvious intentionally: Murbarak's Egypt was a regime that placed the highest priority on keeping the status quo elite in power at the expense of the Egyptian St. This macro premise is identical to what the Wall St protest is all about, applied to US domestic politics--# one issue is the rotten financial-monetary system--that's why the protests went first to Wall St (same as 9/11 attackers); just substitute Main St for Arab St. That "nobody important" will buy into the similarity is to be expected. The question is only how long will they remain "important?"
      Rome was not torn down in a day. Neither was apartheid S Africa. Neither was Jim Crow. The times, they are a-changin'. How many years must a man exist, before they call him a man? The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind....

  • Anwar al-Awlaki's extrajudicial murder
    • We all know the story: Jesus was a Jew, and he only "preached" to fellow Jews, and that his chief target was the Jewish Establishment in his time and place, right? Some say Jesus became, was, and has been the only Christian who ever lived.

      And Saul, at request of the Saddhedrin (sic?), use to chase down Jewish followers of Jesus, right? Then he saw the light, while doing just that, on the road to Damascus? Morphed into St Paul, the salesman to the Gentiles, who never saw or heard Jesus?

      And that, according to Nietzsche's study results, Christianity grew as a desperate hope to the downtrodden in Roman Era, was, thus, the new religion for slaves, with "slave morality?" And that Nietzsche himself created the concept of ubermenschen to evoke self-overcoming, rather than the cartoon version of a super hero representing survival of the fittest?

  • The Department of Corrections: Ben-Hur, the LA Times & a place called Palestine
  • 'Are there any Palestinians unaffected by the occupation?' I ask him
  • 'Time' features generational divide over Israel-- when will 92d St Y stage this family affair?
  • In Gaza, fishermen are under constant attack for trying to make a living
    • Well, yeah, James, but it's only terrorist in nature when it comes to goys. There's a difference between universal ethics/morality and what Israel & its complicit diaspora applaud and implement. Kant, after all, was not Jewish.

    • Jewish Diaspora is moving rather slowly; gives new meaning to the old adage "Teach a man to fish, not to get a handout of fish." Israeli version: "Don't teach a goy to fish, and don't give a goy a handout of fish." Palestinians are only the most immediate targets of this fresh Israeli version of positive thinking and doing.

  • Imagine if this article was about whites and blacks in the US
    • Maybe he's got a point when you consider how assimilation of Israeli thought has weakened America's values at home and abroad?

    • eee, all those peoples you name have lived respectively there for centuries--they were not imported in from foreign lands, from overseas, from other continents.

    • eee, yes communities are segregated via income and wealth in the USA, even as between wealthy and even wealthier communities. The wealthier you are in the USA, the more choices you have where to live; the really wealthy can live anywhere without regard to race, ethnicity, creed, or color--and they do. And it is a violation of law to condition where one can live on race, ethnicity, color, or creed. Such a violator and all aiders and abettors are subject to both civil and criminal law everywhere in the USA. Jewish Americans were in the forefront of creating such legislation.

    • eee, if someone believes having a humanistic community is good, then a Jewish community is a loss? If someone believes in universal morality, then Jewish morality is a loss? What is most revealing is that you don't think a community based on equal rights for all under law is anything worthwhile. Clearly you don't like the American way of life. You are spiritual kin to the Americans who move to Israeli settlements from places like Brooklyn. Also, spiritual kin to David Duke and his friends here in the USA. Res ipsa loquitur.

    • Israel is always copying Nazi Germany. I really don't get how the chattering class can ignore this. This subject is just one of many examples, both in ideas and policy, some of them touched upon here regularly at MW because they are so obvious. German females received the Mother's Cross for breeding babies--it came in plain, gold, and silver assets, depending on how many babies were born for the 3rd Reich from any single pure Aryan female. Those crosses are very collectible these day...

    • Try interchanging Obama's recent very positive words to the Libyan people (written by his handlers of course) by substituting "Palestinian people" where he says "Libyan people" in one way or another. Would have been a completely different Obama speech @ UN GA. Makes me want to puke. Wonder what Obama's mother would say about his disregard of Palestinians in behalf Israel? She, pure white, always identified with the oppressed. Obama even implied she was naive for doing so. He does not see the connection, does not have the imagination or empathy to see that if his own mother had his mentality he would never have been born.

  • Sullivan on Obama's 'capitulation' at the UN
    • Methinks of Obama as an usher.

    • I agree JB, Obama could do it. Look also at what Ike did, and a time when the Holocaust was less than a decade old. He pulled the leash back on 3 key allies! The first questions should be directed to Penny P and Axlelrod, Rahm?

    • Edithann, well, JFK & Bobby K tried to buck the Zionists but it just so happened they were murdered before JFK could publicize Israel's insistence on getting nukes against US policy and Bobby was murdered before he could make AIPAC's more honest Zionist predecessor entity register as agent for a foreign government.

    • Yeah, well, while on his fantasy bully pulpit Obama could also talk over the heads of congress to the public, and tell them not only is he putting Israel on a "diet" of sequential drops in foreign aid linked to settlements left standing, but he's also tossing out all the loopholes, offsets, exemptions, credits, etc in our IRS tax code because they form a matrix of discriminatory taxation falling mostly on working stiffs in blue and white collars.

    • Hick Perry looking like a shorter, homily Jethro (from Beverly Hillbillies) awkwardly listening to the foreign language and trying to anticipate when he will be directed (from off stage) to do the circle hora dance around the menorah (without a Torah) with the crew of short, scraggly-bearded Orthodox Jews in their top hats and gaberdine penguin outfits--was pure torture and humiliation to watch. Made me deeply ashamed of being an American.

  • Mourning the Jewish New Year
    • I have read parts of the Talmud. Have you? Few have read the original, or even the original translation, only at best the purged translation. Many rabbis over the years have told their own people that you don't go to the Torah for life instructions, but to the Talmud. Why don't you give us all passages on your mind, LeaNder, complete with specific historical context, time and place? While you are at it, you can do that with the Christian bible too. Thanks! You get extra credit for telling us when those scripts are speaking literally or poetically.

    • Who are you talking to LeaNder? We all know about the methodical Wannsee Conference and its vagaries.

    • You forgot that while America's credit is now downgraded below the even more recently upgraded Israeli credit (both by S & P), America is still underwriting Israel's loans, debt. Natch Dick & Jane don't know this.

    • There are a lot of places across the USA where whites are in the minority; yet without some whites Obama would not have been elected POTUS. And now the Republicans have Cain.

    • RE: "But hey, it is much simpler than that. How many people have been killed in the name of Church? In the name of Islam?"

      Hey, Jews teach each other they are "the light to the world." They don't say Christians or Muslims are such. BTW, the test of virtue is power, as in Israeli nukes and US welfare weapons.

      RE: "Nowhere in the bible does it say “It’s OK to kill non-Jews.” The Bible contains accounts of the wars fought by the ancient nations of Israel, but there is no such categorical statement."

      Where is Hitler's categorical statement on "the final solution?" BTW, Jewish specific rules regarding the goyim are not found in the Torah, but in the Talmud. And, was there a US government categorical statement pushing genocide of the native Americans?

      RE: "Oh, so someone wrote a book, so therefore it must be true."
      Naw, you wrote a comment here without any supporting outside references at all. Therefore your comment must be true.

      RE: "Sorry, but tell me again about the the Laws of War. Last I checked, causing the deaths of non-combatant is permissible if a military action fits the definition of proportionality."

      And OP Cast Lead fits the definition of proportionality? Not according to the original Goldstone Report; besides, Goldstone did not deny the Committee's findings later; and, after all, three people wrote that report. The other two were not concerned with attending a family bar mizvah.

    • And geez read a book that is not hasbara once in awhile. As to Castle Keep's point # 3, I suggest you read Lindemann's Esau's Tears.

    • Also, DBG, tell us all if you believe Moses existed, and whether you found any old matzo balls in the desert he and his folks marched in for, what 40 years?

      Also, happy new year; please also tell us if Adam and Eve had navels.

    • hophmi, does Israel have a half-Palestinian PM? Does it have affirmative action programs galore benefitting minorities, or discriminatory laws galore harming minorities?

    • It's easy to see you are not a born and bred American, longliveisrael. Every American public school student is taught about the prominent place Christianity has had in spreading evil, from the Crusades, Inquisition, through the pious conquering of native Americans, and complicity in the slave trade, right through the Jim Crow Era. Piotr is correct in his distinction between universal morality and a strong strain of Jewish morality, and nothing says it better than current policy and conduct of the nuclear-armed and self-described Jewish state.

  • Perfect match: Bob Bernstein uses settler sources for racist anti-Arab 'WaPo' Op-Ed
    • Wapo is a disgrace 2 the memory of real American journalism I remember in the MLK, Vietnam War & Nixon Eras. Ditto for NYT. Never expected anything from Wall St Journal.

    • Hence we have that archive photo here of Jewish Israeli school girls writing Hallmark hate notes on IDF missiles.

    • Israel is also busy as hell courting China in anticipation US whole-hearted protection and funding of Israel might go the way of France's former support b4 US became Israel's host major power to suck dry.

  • Let's negotiate over how we divide the pizza while I eat the pizza
    • I meant as you surmised Woody T: that Judaism is not a universalist religion. A pure religion takes no cognizance of the faithful's birth tribe in any way; it has no ethnic or cultural tag in its essence.

    • MHughes976, you make comment while telling us you don't intend to read Atzmon's book? Mearsheimer does not convince you to do so. Why? Does "Holocaust" theology prevent you from doing so? Many charlatans have always made ample use of biblical terminology, correct?

    • jaynot I agree. Atzmon wants to treat the Shoah as a proper piece of historical study--like every other incident or aggregate of incidents, in history. He doesn't like laws banning historical research and public display of analysis of any aspect of history. He concludes that's the earmark of a religion, not historical inquiry in the nature of "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."

    • Another theme in the book, which is directly related, is that Jews are actually no worse or better, not even 10% better, than other collectives. He identifies with the notion of taking everyone in thought and deed as an individual in both creed and deed. In short, he, I think, identifies with the Enlightenment stream of consciousness regarding individuality. Perhaps that's why he's so into jazz.

    • I read Atzmon's book. He never suggested or stated that the Germans were not guilty of murdering millions of Jews, among other people, as official state policy. He did suggest and state that neither the Nazi Era Germans nor the Jews, taken generally, acted out of sheer irrationality. I saw nothing in his book that questioned the gross disproportionality of said historical German reaction, nor of more contemporary Israeli reaction.

      I think Dick Chaney is a demented hate-filled lunatic, but that does not mean he does not have some reasonable observations suggesting he's a rational reactor or actor; it's just that those broad-brush "realities" in no way justify his grossly disproportionate response(s). The same can be said for all the neocons.

      Atzmon's book suggests that many apparently contrary Jewish movements all have one thing in common: Jews have different opinions on "what's good for the jews." His express stance is (paraphrasing) the question should be, "What's good for humanity?"

      Did I read the same book as others here?

    • CloakAndDagger, there are no self-hating Christians, muslims, hindus or buddhists because those are pure religions, not tribal religions.

    • ToivoS, please tell us where to go to find where Atzmon says specifically that he thinks no Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. Thanks. The holocaust is an historical fact among many. The industrialization of murder is part of the advance of technology, Auschwitz no less than the introduction of the machine gun and drones. BTW, weren't the Roma right up there with the Jews in terms of priority for industrial murder? Were the slavs second tier targets? What do you think of the limiting of Jews to "The Holocaust" we all grew up with from grade school?

    • True, Schmuel, but was Hannah Arendt a Jew-hating simpleton? You think the "banality of evil" is not a meritorious notion? I suggest you look at the contemporary American government bureaucracy for a prime current example, especially Congress and Military folks . You think there's nothing more to anti-semitism or "self-hating Jews" than astute reasons such as ignorant ancient Volk "blood libel" enhanced by the Church powers historically, ample use of scapegoating Jews to divert peasant anger at the Establishment and its lethal hypocrisy, Gentile joy at the misery of others, Gentile jealousy of Jewish riches?
      If you think Atzmon "flirts" with anti-semitism, I wonder what you think of the content of Albert S Lindemann's Esau's Tears, Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jews? Is he another "self-hating jew?" His book is much bigger, more scholarly than Atzmon's, and it contains 21 pages of supportive footnotes for the content, which is putting the traditional Jewish history of anti-semitism in context of the larger history of the historical times--he adds much historical fact to answer the question: Why have Jews been so hated in history?

      RE Preface to his book, at P xiii, "The importance of Jew-hatred in the last hundred years is undeniable, the repercussions appalling. That I have devoted many years of study to anti-Semitism underlines how important I think it is has been and is. Still, assertions about the significance of Jew-hatred in modern history have sometimes been exaggerted or crudely simplified, in ways that finally hinder rather than enhance our efforts to understand it. Similarly, the tendency to dismiss anti-Semitism as a bizarre hallucination, a fantasy of diseased minds, is undoubtedly justified in some instances but has often been overdone and has thus hindered understanding, for Jews have been disliked for many reasons by a very wide variety of normal people, many of whom were neither emotionally unstable nor intellectually unsophisticated, and a few of whom were men and women of great ability (Wagner, Barres, or T S Eliot, for example)."

      I imagine Jews may dislike Jews rationally too; and neither Atzmon nor Mearsheimer fall into the moral realm of being Nazis because they criticize some Jewish group conduct.

    • Shmuel, Cheney only endorses books that he thinks support his neocon ideology. Hence he will never endorse a book by an Arab about Arab Identity. The most basic Arab identity is as antagonist to Western interference in the Arab world; the contemporary Arab Street wants to erase the last vestiges of Western colonialism, which, as the Arab Springs shows clearly, includes booting out of power Arab groups that have been wedded to US/Israel solely to feather their own selfish nests.
      You know this, thus I don't understand your comment.

      What issue exactly did Mearsheimer fail to address?

    • annie, it's not bizarre. Mearsheimer is an American of German descent. He co-wrote the book outing the lobby as a highly accredited academic, and the book has a 100 pages of supporting footnotes, most of them from the Jewish American community or material found in the US mainstream media. Now he praises Atzmon's new book, which is a breezy study of Jewish identity politics through history by a man who was born in Israel (with a notable Zionist father), is a former IDF soldier, and who thinks any Jewish mindset is anti-individual, anti-Enlightenment, and always, at least ultimately (if not outright) contradicts universal human moral values. He says in various way that both boisterous racist Jewish Zionists and subtle Jewish Anti-Zionists, and both Jewish capitalists, and Jewish Marxists, etc', exhibit so, although Jewish liberals & Jewish liberal Zionists do it under a veneer of humanism. In short, Atzmon thinks being and remaining Jewish as prime ID of self is a contradiction in terms, and that such folks are determined above anything to remain part of a self-identifying collective that distinguishes them as fundamentally superior (or at the very least, eternally different) to the rest of humanity, even if only by 10%. He says the proof is in the pudding in that Jews of every stripe all hate him, Atzmon, equally.

  • 'Young, Jewish and Proud' issues challenge to the Jewish community
    • Kathleen, not only are some of these young Jewish folks telling their parents what you say, but it's become such a trend now even TIME magazine has splashed it out to the whole American public:,8599,2095505,00.html

    • Yep, national and/or ethnic myths are harmless as Santa Claus until old St Nick pulls some machine guns out of his sack, then some nuke missiles...

    • I have been; they are pretty much ignoring me or sending me boilerplate stuff not addressing my specified concerns. Got any suggestions?

    • Maybe, while standing on one foot, teach more specifically that JUSTICE IS NOT JUSTICE IF NOT FOR EVERYONE? A bit of a mouthful, but there it is.

    • Yes, historically, both the revolutionaries and the reactionaries always think they invented their stance. High School & college history lessons are lost on the young (even when they are taught not only by rote event and time sequence, but by a few teachers who see the conflicting ideas & can bring them home to their pupils), and when children get out in the working world history is not often a priority.

    • Yes, Dan Crowther. Universal ethics and morality go back to Kant's moral imperative; the root of universal morality is in the individual, not any group.
      As in a Seuret painting, the individual dots blend into a broad brush picture when you step back.

    • Yes, Kathleen, glad to have more Jews, young or otherwise, joining the rest of us, no small proportion being goys, beginning with the initiating Palestinians, to end the harm caused to both the Palestinians (now & at least since 1948) and the USA (now & since 1967) and to Israel (later, longer term).

    • Real Jew, as an added minor bonus for non-Jewish American (98% of the population), the detrimental effect on the USA will also be aired out.

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