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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
why would the iranians already have nuclear weapons if the revolution of 1979 didnt happen? BECAUSE THE US SOLD/BUILT A NUCLEAR REACTOR FOR THE SHAH. Its still in use. Weird that Miller doesnt mention this.....or maybe not
The name of the program that built reactors in Iran and Pakistan, you ask? ATOMS FOR PEACE.
You couldnt make this shit up.
What do you think "without pre-conditions" means? It means we (the west, more specifically the US) have the right to destroy your economy, kill your people but you cant bring that up in the negotiations - as in, "yes, we will agree to talk, but first, please stop killing our people" - That constitutes a pre-condition, so does asking for sanction relief. This is all a mindless charade designed to gain support for war over time. Apparently its working. Obama sold these sanctions to the West, they agreed, and the House of Saud and Jordan were thrilled the West agreed - there are a lot of moving parts here, and not all of them are connected to Tel Aviv.
Seriously Phil, a state department website designed to talk to the Iranian people is a voice of moderation? WOW. Voice of state propaganda perhaps, but certainly not moderation. "WE MEAN YOU NO HARM, BIG BROTHER LOVES YOU" - is that about right?
The only way you could have thought this wasnt going to happen, is if you believed the mind reading of Gareth Porter and some others - the "obama seems reluctant; obama wants to stave off war" crowd - what a crock of shit.
That statement from the ADL reads EXACTLY like the statements from the Kohl government in Germany after re-unification in the 90's, in which he blames the immigrants for the pogroms that attacked them. "Auslander Raus" eh, Abe?
The ADL is repugnant.
"Those who have worked with Mattis say his views when it comes to Iran are more in line with those of America’s allies in the Persian Gulf and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu than with his own government’s."
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Rubbish. This guy has made it through every filter, to say his views are not aligned with the washington consensus is absurd - if anything he is just more vocal and vulgar. I love it how here at MW, and it seems elsewhere, even if you are wearing the uniform on the US, and are a general in its military -as soon as you spout "neo-con" views, you are at once a de-facto agent of israel or saudi arabia etc, you cease to be a functionary of the US government - what an unbelievable mechanism to re-direct guilt for US policy. This is part of my criticism of a lot of lobby arguments - most of "the lobby" is in OFFICIAL positions of power, their decisions are OFFICIAL policy, yet we talk about the lobby as a foreign entity, this doesnt make any sense to me. Take some responsibility for who you elect and the people those you elect appoint.
Finkelstein and Rabbani made a good tag team on that clown....I saw F&R speak this past winter and found Rabbani to be a real force - sort of like Hever, in my opinion. his arguments are dispassionate and sober, he just tells it like it is......
Im not buying these "defections" are a result of "The Lobby" - Ford and Booker are the whoriest[sic] of the whores, they have gold plated connections with all the nefarious actors among the ruling classes.
american - i was asked a direct question about what other issue aside from I/P has the same potential for backlash to the US and humanity - I said the US elites stance on Climate change. Im not conflating anything or jumping or sprinboarding around - I was responding to a question.
No worries Sean.
Just once more for the record - this post, and my original comment were not about the lobby. What I was saying to Phil was, you will never be able to convince the upper crust (like these cats) - BECAUSE they are perfectly happy to have the same kind of inequality that exists among americans, exist among jewish israelis. Personally, I think the idea of jews being poor and brutish kind of turns Bill Kristol on - my point was to say, Phil might do well to take his project, as he calls it, to yes, places like the Deli on Long Island - where he can say to the Tribalists Without Resources, "This occupation you support so much is making your fellow Jews live under worse and worse conditions, and is causing some to leave the country"
Guys like Kristol will hear this and wont be bothered - hes never been interested in anyone elses standard of living, and he loathes social justice - but I think Phil can be productive among non-elite jews, jews who actually have to live among regular people; they are probably feeling the pinch of the plutocrats as well; Bill Kristol and is ilk would be perfectly happy to just hire gunmen and build walls around their mansions if it came to it in the US, and again, im sure he dreams of the day he has to have armed guards with him in israel, thats so third world tough guy-ish.
My personal view is that Phil is sort of wasting his time at these things anyway - whatever is going to happen to Israel and Palestine, american jews, and probably world jewry in general will not be on the side of justice, thats just what I think. I am not a lobby denier, quite the opposite - but I do think there is a tremendous amount of navel gazing that takes place around this issue - and some of the journalism about the lobby falls into that category. And I think here at MW, lobby related posts and other identity based posts have overtaken what I thought was the original intent of the blog - "the war of ideas in the middle east" - I understand its from chiefly a jewish perspective, whatever that means, but I feel sometimes MW is still in the "proving it" phase - as if there is any serious argument about whether or not the israel lobby has undo sway. all the analysts i read take it for granted, and so do i. i keep coming back to "self evident" and thats really I how I try and view the world - if something is obviously true, move along - its better to work on something new, rather than focusing on established facts. Just my opinion.
Sean,
You bash away at me on threads regarding "the lobby" and "Likud Zionists" like Kristol here, saying I cant write- but just the other day you were in full agreement with me:
seanmcbride says:
May 14, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Dan Crowther,
You nailed it. Barack Obama has been a more effective and sinister neocon tool than George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Most Democrats don’t have a clue.
But despite all that, I will be forced to vote for him in November over Mitt Romney. Damn. We’ve been completely backed into a no-win corner by Likud Zionists in American politics.
link to mondoweiss.net
So, Im an illiterate idiot when I stake out a different POV - but when we agree, I "nail" it. Hmmmm.... My post above had NOTHING to do with the lobby - you guys always say Im an apologist, chomskyite or whatever - nothing could be further from the truth, I am largely in agreement with you all regarding the lobby. I just happen to think, in this case (phils post on ben-ami and kristol) phil is wasting his time with the elite israel firsters, for the reasons i state above. if hes gonna spend his time in the jewish only community, I think he would be better served spending it with non elite types, who arent dependent on the status quo for their position in life, I dont understand how thats such a controversial idea.
As for everything else - until I get acknowledgement on some of the accusations made against me here being incorrect, im not going to continue - Ive been labeled a quasi trust funder who hasnt had a regular experience in america and a host of other things, its all bullshit. I am a former Marine who put himself (along with uncle sam) through college, I live and work in a "Big City" - my values and beliefs are based on the same working class values and beliefs my parents hold, and their parents held. But I dont think that "my country" is being taken away from me, like a lot of older white people (some here) seem to think - I dont believe that US foreign policy is based solely on the positions of "Jewish Ethnic Nationalists" - or other nefarious cabals. And if I did, I would focus on what they advocate, rather than who they are. The US will be bombing another country, and you all will discussing what jewish actors were involved in the plot, thats just not that interesting to me, it used to be, but not so much anymore.
One last thing: ARMY stands for Aren't Ready (to be) Marines Yet.
OOORAH!!
"what “horrors around the world” do ivy league spawn in government champion that are equal in negative blowback to USA & humanity generally than Israel First?
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Is this a serious question?
Our (US) population believes global warming and climate change are a problem - our elites dont, as evidenced by their actions - I would say they are somewhat alone among world elites (at least in the developed world) -- in their collective "denial" -- and it could cause the extinction of the species. So, thats pretty significant. Just one example.
I would also go into the economic policies championed by these elites, and other non ME dictatorships and tyrannies these elites support (and educate at the same institutions they go to) but that would just get me shouted down as a Chomskyite loser or whatever.............
My dad worked for the railroad, like his father and brothers, and my mother was a nurse, the daugher of an electrician -- i am the first crowther male to finish college.
No, I wasnt drafted, I enlisted in the Marines - went to boot camp in oct. 2001 - u can do the math.
I grew up in a college town that was half ex urbanites and half appalachia, with a large gay population. I got a basketball/baseball scholarship to a prep school, where i met the upper crust for the first time - i didnt like them all that much.
when you grew up, there were a lot less people who had gone to college across the board - again, its more than possible to be "working class" while having gone to college in this day and age.
Semper Fidelis,
Dan
I really want to be able to give American and McBride credit for being able to read English - but its becoming hard to do so.
I realize there is "financial elitism and then there are Israel firsters" My point was to say people like Kristol and Co. who fall into BOTH categories should be taken with a grain of salt and that Phil would do well to spend more time with people who dont have both tribal sympathies for israel and a want/ financial interest in israel being a right wing country - like Kristol.
As for Mcbrides comments - I am still not sure what the Chomsky obsession is about, I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the lobby - I dont want to get into a protracted debate about it - my general thought is its a symptom, rather than cause, of the problem. And the same I think is true of Kristol, Ben Ami and Co. The guys phil mindlessly bestows leadership status to. Whatever else is true about them, they come from money, had exclusive upbringings and educations and benefitted from being "in the club" - people who are "in the club" hold all sorts of repugnant views and face no sanction for them, across the board. kristol is jewish, so he holds repugnant views regarding israel, but hes no different from his collegiate school/harvard buddies who champion all sorts of other horrors around the world. I very much consider our problems -really across the board- to be the " work of our "leaders" and "elites" - and I think phil is wrong to feel bad that he cant change their minds
You want my GPS coordinates?? haha
Yeah, Im an American, I live in Boston. Im from a college town in western mass originally. Me and you have been down this road before, where you try and out American me, on a Ron Paul thread you said I could never hold my views if I ever actually lived among ethnic and racial minorities, that stereotypes exist for good reasons etc then I told you I live in Roxbury.
I grew up in a white collar working class jewish community - most of my friends parents were social workers, local store owners, tax attorneys and psychiatrists -- not blue collar, but not "elite." My point is that Phil is making his case to people with not only ethnic or religious solidarity reasons for supporting israel - but also a financial/political reasoning for supporting israel as it is. And he is criticizing the "jewish community" as a whole, when he spends all his time (or a whole lot of it) with the upper crust.
Im in my late twenties, so I think I have a different perspective - the jewish kids I grew up with, and their families (and maybe my experience is unique, who knows) dont view their jewish identity as important as their grandparents do. dont be a cranky old fart. :)
Why do you despair [for] the jewish community, just because Bill Kristol is an asshole?
Sht man, if every "community" had to account for its assholes, we'd be in much worse shape than we're already in.
I'll tell you what community you should be in despair over - The Trust Fund Baby, Collegiate School, Harvard University community - thats what community cats like Kristol really belong to.
For all he does to defend Israel, hes certainly not calling for a better welfare state there, he isnt running around talking about social justice issues; no, hes defending Neo-liberal Israel, state capitalist Israel - this guy doesnt care about the health and living conditions of jews in Israel, he only cares about the rights of the ruling class there, same as here in the US. If you want to say these guys (ben-ami and kristol) are indicative of the "jewish community" with out any qualifying statements, thats your right to do so, but in my opinion, it reveals a sort of authoritarianism and elitism on your part. If every "community" had its conventional wisdom dictated by trust funders speaking to passive audiences, again, we would be in much worse shape than we're already in. You need to find yourself some working class jews phil - they're out there, I promise.
That kid got shot by the settler who knelt down and sighted in with his pistol..... wow, and right in front of the "soldiers" -- this is unreal.
Ive never seen a German emote like Merkel here in this picture....... :)
This proactive approach should help calm nerves in the region about Obama’s mettle, and could forestall Israel from taking matters into its own hands.
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These are the "Pro's" according to these dickheads. Obama gets to look tough, and we (the US) get to save Israeli lives - lives that would only be in jeopardy due to the actions of Israel's supremely assholic government.
I shouldnt even comment on posts like this - every time I read drivel like this latest from Koenig and Fly, I want to make the short walk over to the Kennedy School and smack some future key board warriors around.... How about that for a "pre-emptive strike?"
Not a single one of them mentioned Obama's reported dislike for Bibi - and vice versa. Which leads me to believe that this is where the dip the in poll numbers comes from - if the Israeli PM doesnt like you, neither do we - lets not forget how much of this anybody-but-obama propaganda gets its sign off from GOI. These people think what they are told to think, they'll change when the propaganda changes.
I dont know if O survives - it is sure to be a unbelievably vicious campaign, and we all know the right does vicious a whole lot better; they are "fired up.....ready to go!" And heres the kicker - Occupy didnt start on Bush's watch, it started three years into Obama's term, thats gold for the right. Say what you want about the Republicans craziness, the loons in the tea party, etc etc., they dont need you to vote for them, they just need to deflate the opposing candidate, the lower the turn out the better. I see every opportunity for that method to work against Obama.
great post
If you take a look at the list of non-NATO countries the US government has gone "above and beyond" for - it's a real indictment of Israel. From Suharto to Saddam - if your government is relying on American largesse for its political survival, you are living in a military dictatorship. I often wonder why this doesnt get remarked on more.
Maybe because some dont want to think it was always going to be this way - perhaps its better to think somewhere along the line things changed.
They're really pulling out all the stops - Obama is something else. I wonder if there will be retroactive immunity for the groups american shills. Obama shielding Fran Townsend and co. from prosecution for material support for terrorism would be oh so perfect, that would really say it all.
I dont know that this increases the likelihood for war between the US and Iran directly, but it definitely greenlights an overt fight among the big powers for a iranian host, the west has decided it wants to destroy iranian society and remove the current government, if that can be done with iranians killing iranians, i suppose thats what the west prefers.
cheers phil - i look forward to reading this
What's really funny is that this is how Obama wants this relationship portrayed, perhaps not this gratuitously, but politically he has to be seen as "taking it" from Bibi - at least thats why I laughed
so im a hasbaraist now? hahaha.... thats awesome.
i was just pointing out that (I personally think) the US doesnt want independent, secular nationalism in this resource rich region - and israel "helps" in that effort - i am very far from supporting the US position, just pointing out what is a pretty obvious fact
You left out secular arab nationalism; there isnt much in the way of that surrounding israel, I have to think thats the way the US likes it
I make the distinction - but Im not so sure most do. And yes, there have been a lot of times I've heard "neocons" be used as a substitute for "jews" - and I think its kind of understood that way. Its not just me.
I think Phil wittingly or unwittingly is making sort of an eliminationist argument - he can say he wants to rehabilitate his community or whatever, but when one writes daily about a certain group of people who are hellbent on war and seemingly hellbent on destroying the US, a sense of "man, we need to rid ourselves of these people" takes over in the reader. Phil says it bothers him when he learns of anti-semites and racists citing him, well, I am just pointing out to him, that this is indeed an instance where he -in my opinion- is overemphasizing something (the role of the neocons/right wing jews) to the probable delight of those same bigots.
Im just not an identity politics guy - I think we would all do well to shut the F up about our respective political identities and work in concert, not as jews, christians, whites, blacks and so on, but as people. i dont care that the neocons are jewish - they want war and I am against it. full stop. too many times we get tied up in discussing the abstract - 9/11 being a perfect example. People said "it was an inside job, because they want to start a war" - OK, but at that point the "who" (as in who did it?) should have been the least important thing to those who wanted to stop the war(s). Because no matter "who" committed the attacks, the plans for war were being made. For me, the background of the neocons is an abstraction in much the same way.
Phil you got a hard on so big for members of the tribe you disagree with (rightfully so) Im not sure you can be objective here. Even walt and mearsheimer dont claim that the neo-cons were the chief reason behind the war - they were a key part, but their views had to align with other sects within the society and the government, and they did.
This is not to say that maddow and berman arent full of it - they are. but to lay the war in iraq at the feet of "the jews" (which is what i think is really being said when "neocons" is uttered) is to me, pretty unfair and distasteful. To take these arguments to their logical conclusions is to kick jews out of the US (or worse). After all, I pledged to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic - surely people who get the US into bloody wars on behalf of another country (and an abstract political identity) are "enemies" - yes? Is this really what you're saying? Sometimes it seems so.
Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
- Rick James
I dont know that obama sees a benefit in bombing iran (right now) - but I do think Obama sees a benefit in a neutered Iran, and if he thinks threatening all out war and crippling the country through sanctions will help in creating the conditions for regime change, thats what hes gonna do. and if he thinks bombing iran will lead to regime change, i suppose thats what hes gonna do - but that isnt feasible as of now, because, as i said, the country hasnt been ruined yet - there is still a functioning society.
i think we are closer to the beginning here, rather than the end. iranian society has not yet been destroyed, and uncle sam usually makes sure to do that before any military action takes place. all these resolutions are just part of the background, the as it were foundation for future military actions.
lets not be naive and think that Barry and the O's DONT want israel and the lobby doing exactly what they are doing - barry wants to be seen as the guy holding the leash on these crazies, that gives his positions in negotiations all the more credibility.
Of course, now that Barry and the O's support gay marriage, he can pretty much do what he wants, Im half expecting the Maddow's of the world to come out and give full throated support to O's foreign policy in its entirety.
Who gives hand-jobs? Matt definitely had a right to be "deeply offended" - guy goes all the way to the Middle East and all he gets is a "handy"?? Sheeee--ittt!!
My new tee-shirt Idea: I went to a Orgy in the Desert and all I got was this lousy tee-shirt and a handjob from some hipster chick
the back would read: It was Birthright, not BurningMan
@DC: sold them long range fighter jets, as well as re-fueling tanker aircraft
Could you source this, please.
---------------------------------------
link to haaretz.com
WASHINGTON - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu requested the United States approve the sale of advanced refueling aircraft as well as GBU-28 bunker-piercing bombs to Israel during a recent meeting with Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, a top U.S. official said on Tuesday.
The American official said that U.S. President Barack Obama instructed Panetta to work directly with Defense Minister Ehud Barak on the matter, indicating that the U.S. administration was inclined to look favorably upon the request as soon as possible.
March 6 2012
-------------------------------
2010
link to haaretz.com
"Defense Minister Ehud Barak approved the purchase of 20 F-35 fighter planes for the Israel Air Force on Sunday. "
Those come on line in 2015, and they are going to be buying a lot more - theyve already added to their initial buy-
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As for everthing else - there is plenty of stuff out there about obama's clandestine wars all over the middle east and north/east africa - my point wasnt to say hes a neocon - my point was to say, whatever we want to label him, or think of him as, he is not a guy anyone should be projecting things upon - "seems" and barack obama should never appear in the same sentence. He "seemed" to favor single payer, and then the public option - he "seemed" to want to close guantanamo and reinstate the rule of law and so on.
The only thing I take umbrage with here is the line:
The Obama administration, despite rhetorical hedging, seems to recognize that war is neither necessary nor wise.
I'm getting pretty tired of the mind reading. "seems" is a word Walt would do well to forget. Ronald Reagan "seemed" like a nice guy. Obama "seems" like a nice guy. The former killed nuns and priests, the latter kills US citizens with no due process. I cant take anymore of this "the obama adminstration doesnt want war" nonsense. Its utter nonsense.
Enough with the mind reading - lets look at the facts. (1) Iran is completely surrounded by the US military, thanks in part to Obama (2) Obama has sent additional troops, aircraft carrier groups to the Gulf in the last year (3) Obama has increased all sorts of clandestine operations in and around Iran (we know this, because drones and people have been caught) (4) The US has been building hospitals and other facilities in Georgia, in Azerbaijian and sent hundreds of bunker busters to Diego Garcia (5) Obama has sold the same bunker busters to Israel, sold new missile defense technology to Israel and sold them long range fighter jets, as well as re-fueling tanker aircraft, while the Israeli government shouts from the mountaintops that it wants Iran destroyed, and may attack on its own. (6) Obama has greatly expanded W's wars - Libya, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia - now onto Syria and perhaps Lebanon or maybe Nigeria? (7) Obama has propped up the (sunni) Gulf Monarchies, and made them full members of the Anti-Iran, Anti-Syria coalition, while selling them new fighter jets and tanks (8) Egypt. the obama administrations actions toward post Mubarak Egypt speak for themselves (9) Obama has already succeeded in selling the harsh, brutal sanctions on Iran to the Europeans and has moved China and Russia in the same direction (10) maybe most importantly, barry has been able to almost completely castrate any domestic opposition by making himself out to be the "reluctant warrior" through leaks, sympathetic journalists and a general - though totally undeserved- perception that democrats favor peace.
Barry was sold as "The Competent Manager" - the anti-W. Well, this is what competent management of empire looks like, Obama is getting his ducks in a row, so he can tell the world and the kool-aid drinkers at home that "he tried his best for a peacful resolution" He isnt trying to stop war, hes preparing the noose. and if we paid attention to his ACTIONS rather than the mind reading of the steve walts and gareth porters of the world, all this would be self evident
Tokyo Benny back in the Heezy....... for those keeping score, Benny's latest posts have been dedicated to defending the honor of Shmully The Racist and Abe The Fox-Man; Witty would be proud.
When I think of "brave" I dont generally think of well-heeled people "opening up" in front of other well-heeled people who share their same views - it was a J street conference, yes? Isnt that the biggest problem of all, people saying one thing in one setting, and something different in another? Where has she been? O-P-P-O-R-T-U-N-I-S-T. The one thing I will give her credit for is not mentioning anti-semitism, so I guess thats progress
I've heard plenty of american women recount similar stories of "clubbing" and "finding love etc" when discussing their vacations in the Caribbean (eddie murphy has a GREAT bit about this as well; see Raw, his standup special) - how is this any different? Is this the new "liberal" zionist rallying cry?: "Save Israel because american jewish women are more attracted to their tanned, fit and heavily accented co-religionists from Israel"?
At the end of the day, this is just more talk about future talks "within the jewish community" - american jewish so called activists are like Treebeard and co. in the Lord of The Rings - where they (the trees) meet to talk about what they are going to talk about and how they will eventually talk about it, but only amongst themselves. As if the cure to Tribalism is more Tribalism. Brave, indeed.
I dont think its just the Neocons who feel this way - but for as much as I worry the Israelis might do something crazy (attacking Iran), I feel like this is about the "next phase" in the "zionist project" which means full on expulsions etc. of non-jews from Israel.
"6) Bibi wants to be able to say to President Obama: More than three-quarters of the Knesset is with me. I am Israel. (and we are annexing what we want)"
If and when this happens (the final "cleansing"), the reaction in the states, and on this blog will be of great interest to me. I am bracing myself to be absolutely disgusted. But maybe some good will come out of it - maybe at that point the vulgar apologists and Holocaust Industrialists will finally be shouted down and shunned, maybe at that point, wealthy white americans who happen to be jewish will feel a sense of shame identifying as victims in perpetuity and maybe at that point we can finally move past identity politics, where "what I think" is somehow a by product of "what I am"
Isnt it more likely that it was "the west" that was using this very public trip to israel as a way to further threaten/intimidate the iranians, ahead of the "talks" in baghdad?
This speaks to my point about most "popular art forms" in this country, if only the scions of wealth and prestige can "break in" - who can make any qualitative statement about how "good" a show is, how "good" an actor is, how "good" a singer is, how "good" a writer is etc, how "good" an artists art is - it seems like for every person how had to schlep it for years, there are fifteen who walk right into "the biz" due to who they were born to.
That's why I love sports. Your father can be Michael Jordan, but you're not going to make the NBA because of that fact alone - you have to prove yourself, over and over and over. Sport is the ultimate meritocracy
I said "elite" gays, Elliot.
".....whatever else is true about the gay experience in the US, elite gays face no economic sanction for being gay.."
What conspiracy? Its done in broad daylight. I dont think its a jewish thing - although apatow's casts do speak for themselves- I think its an elitist thing. in fact, i know it is
"The American establishment today is a mingled Jewish-WASP one (my wife and I are typical), in which being enlightened means being thoughtful about gays. But that extension of spirit doesn't really include people of color. It's just outside the frame. And don't expect to see any Arab-Americans in the cast"
Being "thoughtful about gays" has no economic component. Some of the same well born wasps and jews are gay, its been shown that people are more sympathetic when they have gay people in their lives; whatever else is true about the gay experience in the US, elite gays face no economic sanction for being gay, unlike "people of color" who do indeed face sanction, both social and economic. because of "who they are." gay solidarity is perfect for the bourgeois. the morality behind the movement is obvious, but unlike activism that would "help" the vast majority of "people of color" in the united states -- where organizing and other acts of solidarity would require actually going to working class and poor neighborhoods-- sexual preference related activism can be done from the comfort of your beach house. and it is.
What do you expect from a girl who went to St Ann's and Oberlin? She's out of college less than four years ago and gets a HBO show produced by Judd Apatow. Hmmm. This doesnt bother Weiss - this obvious insiderism that is absolutely rampant in "pop culture" circles, where people who went to st ann's and oberlin are rammed down the publics throat as representatives of the "young" experience in america. as if most young americans are "struggling" artists living in flats in soho or something. Weiss just wants the few "people of color" who went to st anns and oberlin to be represented on judd apatow produced shows? Not really a rallying cry.
The beef with Dunham isnt that her show under represents groups of people, the beef is that her show drastically OVER represents people like her. Her experience is one that the powers that be love to portray, the young graduate from a good school, living pretty well and trying to make it in the big city, amongst other well educated young people doing the same. What percentage of the population does this depict? She and her ilk are the safe bet, a little "edge" but nothing that would rattle any cages, and we all know how much people love shows about well to do white people living single in NYC - my girlfriend calls the show "Sex and the City for awkward, relatively unattractive hipsters"
( or is that what I called it?).
The remedy to this problem is not to add a few more awkward, relatively unattractive hipsters who happen to be black or hispanic to the show, the remedy is to not watch shit like this. After all, if in the next season there is a character that went to horace mann, NYU film school, lives in a flat in tribeca and happens to be black, is that really "diversity"? If you say so. Personally, I dont think Phil has given up his "elite attitude"
There isn't going to be a "peace deal." Full Stop.
As brother Malcolm said: It's the ballot or the bullet
Its always a little (funny, awkward?) to see the concession of any moral stance from liberal zionists when discussing these issues - MJ knows full well there isnt another "people" as he says on the planet he would accept this type of behavior from. When equal rights and babies are the biggest "threats" to a society, that society is truly lost.
The other thing I was surprised to hear was Rosenberg say "every "people" have a right to a piece of land etc" -- as his fellow American I find this view to be really strange, when considering that "american" denotes no ethnic or religious identity, and replaces the former national/ethnic/religious identity in those who immigrate here. In other words, yes, every "person" has a right to land etc and every "people" have a right to self-determination, but MJ Rosenberg belongs to the "American People" where he, as an american, is afforded (inherently, with no exception) all the rights to liberal citizenship as a person, without mention of his religious affiliation. When I hear Americans, who benefit tremendously from this model in a whole host of ways, advocate its radical opposite in Israel, my first thought is - well, move there. Frankly, I dont think Rosenberg would like it - just look at his personal style, visible undershirt (and sneakers), he just wants to do his thing, a guy like this isnt looking for preferential treatment. It's one thing to care about Israeli's - I know I care about everyday Israelis - but to care about this abstract entity called "Israel" is to care a little less, in my opinion about actual people. The same holds for americans vs america.
Man, I would sure like to see "cuban american politician" replaced with "junior senator from florida" - guy was born in Miami. Or how 'bout "american politician whose parents happen to be from Cuba" -- I feel like this blog does a great job of fighting the "jewish american" identity trap, I think it should be across the board. And maybe especially in this case - to me, "cuban-american politics" seems to mean: being a retrograde catholic (anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-social safety net) and a uber-capitalist/neo-liberal who's goals are to destroy Cuba, the nation that is the origin of their identity. It's kind of like calling the Chiang Kai Shek crowd on Taiwan "Chinese" -- sorry, but y'all lost that battle. Viva La Revolucion!!
As for his comments - again, Barry and the O's parrot the same line. The president said it himself, these talks are the last chance for the Iranians, we'll see what happens in (Baghdad?) Is that where the next round is?
At the risk of having another one of my comments rejected - I will just say, the pointed question of mooser's is well worth asking. also worth asking is why Phil incessantly finds it necessary to defend his views to folks like Tokyo Benny - its almost like Phil views judaism as the religion of zionism, like there is a "Zionist People" (which he sees himself a part of) whose national liberation movement aka the justification for their crimes, is judaism. Which might explain why he thinks he can change folks by out "jewish-ing" them.
HAHA
I was kind of half kidding, I thought the "dream" bit was a little strange, and added my semi uninterested, uncredentialed psycho-analysis; whatever else is true about the people who Phil was actually writing about here - he didnt mention the founders etc, and it was a sabbath dinner- their views are racist, plain and simple. the people who Phil had to first explain himself to, and then debate, held repugnant views, and I got the sense from the piece that they were white (like the football player in his dream, and the dude in the picture) which makes them "white racists" - Big Fucking Deal they let the upper crust of some other races or ethnicities belong to their club, they cheer on ethnic supremacy from a Yale Supper Club, they can go F themselves. How does that grab ya?
I think your dream was about realizing that you were with white chauvinist racists, who happened to be jewish - its foreign to think of racist jews as "white racists" just likes its maybe sort of strange to think of an NFL game and think of a white guy scoring a touchdown. To me, the touchdown is your mind telling you "we made it, maybe now we can focus on being normal"
Oh I definitely think he is interested in politics and the world generally, and I do think he has (and probably continues to) feel some sort of affinity to Israel - but he isnt going to make it his cause, and he doesn't seem all that interested in "righting the ship" especially in light of the reflexive smearing he would go through at the hands of his fellow american jews -- Ive said it for a while now, american jews will ruin zionism for american jews - just like I say "other christians ruined christianity" for myself. Krugman seems to be on the same path......
But I have other battles to fight, and to say anything to that effect is to bring yourself under intense attack from organized groups that try to make any criticism of Israeli policies tantamount to anti-Semitism.
Translation: Israel isn't worth it.
How is this a "bad" thing? I don't think he's cowardly at all, or obeying orthodoxy. He states that Israel is on the road to national suicide and in the next sentence says he more or less fine with it - inferring he would care more, but the psycho's have made it hard to do so. This sounds very much like a guy emotionally detached from where The Jewish State is headed. It's almost like hes mocking The Lobby. I mean, the guy just called BS on the whole "any criticism of Israel is anti-semtic" meme without any qualifiers. JVP doesnt even do that. Remember their letter to the Methodists where JVP told them that their stance is brave considering the centuries of anti-jewish violence etc perpetrated by christians? As if a person born in the 80's has a responsibility to account for misdeeds a thousand years ago. Krugman gets my respect.
Here's an American Jew that isnt obsessed with Israel one way or the other, and we're bashing the guy.....Oy Vey. He's probably more of an anti-zionist than most jewish anti-zionists, and here's how I know: He doesnt write about being jewish on a daily basis. The real orthodoxy is that every single Jew the world over has to have hard felt feelings one way or the other about Israel - Krugman is clearly not interested in this, and for that, again, he gets my respect. He just wants to be a guy named Paul who teaches and writes a column for the paper of record - Im fully on board with this, and I am an anti-capitalist, who disagrees with him a good portion of the time.
so what i take away from this is the ‘destruction of israel’ hasbara, the ‘wipe off the map’ hasbara, is not really believed by the majority of the american jewish community.
---------------------------------
This is not the only part of your comment I agree with, but I think it hits at the central point - in my opinion, that is the point the numbers make. And to me, the counter argument (to the "representatives" of the american jewish community) should be: Well guys and gals, you don't even convince American Jews of the necessity to "defend" America(and with it, Israel), so instead of trying to convince the rest of us why the US military is central to your agenda - take it up with the members of "your" community, who obviously havent gotten the memo.
I just thought it was important to make the distinction between "on the whole american jews dont enlist" and "on the whole jews WON'T enlist" - because I think, and as Bruce shows, when it comes down to real defense of the country, american jews are right there with everyone else, even more so. Not that you were saying "won't" -- I know that you weren't.
Oh, I totally agree with you Bruce, I thought your piece was well done - my remarks were more in reference to the thread.
Annie -- Oh, I certainly wasnt responding to anything you said here in your quotes, and I certainly don't think you have a jewish problem; I myself have remarked on low enlistment rates etc and my own experience in the military, where I had one jewish kid in my bootcamp platoon and served with only one other jewish guy in the Fleet ( as we call it in the Marines). I guess what I am saying is, when non-jewish keyboard warriors cheerlead for war, we don't even mention religion. And in the military, religious affiliations are very misleading, they would lead you to believe that everyone is religious, when in fact, aside from the Air Force, most people's religious beliefs are confined to what prayers I want the chaplain to say over my dead body.
In other words, there numbers for Catholics and Protestants are meaningless, as I say in my posts above - in the Marines, I was considered a Catholic, but was never confirmed as a Catholic, and according to the Church, wasn't a Catholic. So the percentages are skewed for non-jews, whereas for Jews, because the jewish community is obsessed with tracking birth etc- if a jewish guy doesn't denote "jewish" for ID purposes, the numbers take a hit.
The other thing, as I mentioned in my posts above is the fact that the US military is basically a class military, and if Jews were to be fully represented in the enlisted ranks, that would mean that Jews are in the position to "better" their lives by signing up, the fact that American Jews on the whole are not in this position should be a point of pride, in my opinion, and there is nothing to apologize for.
When it comes to the "Israel and the US have the same interests, and they lie in bombing people half a world away from the US" crowd - I think it's fine to mention the lack of representation, if one is responding to blatant tribalism, but in my opinion, mentioning the lack of representation among the enlisted anytime a jewish person cheerleads for war is bordering on the distasteful - again, just my opinion- only because I believe that cheerleading is state sanctioned, welcomed and encouraged by the Offical Organs of the US government.
I think I somewhat agree with TerryScott and Hophmi here - as much as it kills me to say it
One last thing -- WWII was really the last time any american could -if he was really being honest- be proud to have served his country in war. im not talking about the feelings of fraternity etc among the ranks. whatever else is true about the politics behind the war etc. the fight to beat nazism was both necessary and moral. And so, I think the over representation should be a point of pride - but as to any under representation post WWII - who gives a shit?
Its not as if there was any real "defense" going on. You certainly don't qualify as unpatriotic or cowardly for not signing up after WWII to the present, in my opinion. And as for the Iraq war(s) - by this time the military was pretty much what you would call the Armed Trade Labor Association, it was a state subsidized, and armed non degree technical institute, like the ones you see on tv commericals. in other words, it became, and is now, a pure class military. If the majority of american jews dont find themselves among the classes of americans who enlist - mazel tov. I dont see how thats a bad thing.
And again, the numbers for the other religions are also waaaaaaaay inflated. I was never confirmed as a catholic, but the Marine Corps considered me one, because thats what I wanted on my dog tags. And that probably holds for the vast majority of people who dont consider themselves religious, and wouldnt identify as catholic etc - but would have it on their identification for burial purposes if they ever found themselves in the military.
And lastly, abstaining is allowed. a kid in my bootcamp platoon was ethnically jewish, but didnt decide to add that to his dog tag information, and I know there were other jewish Marines that did the same.
I think I should make something a bit more clear here -- the Military denotes religion for "what kind of prayers do we say over this dead body?" purposes, so guys like me for example were considered Roman Catholic - even though I hadnt been near a church in years, and I think much the same is true for our jewish brothers and sisters. So the breakdown in the numbers is indeed a bit misleading - they are all inflated, across the board.
Its better to look at the officer corps, in my opinion to get a sense of "representation." I would be absolutely shocked if 2% or more of the US military's officer corps was jewish. Again, for as much as I enjoyed reading's Wolman's latest, these kinds of discussions(threads) can wonder into the realm of the distasteful pretty easily. I think conversations about under-representation ( and I have definitely pointed it out before) are more about over-representation elsewhere. I mean, what do we want jewish parents to do, demand that their kids play football, go to a trade school and then enlist in the Marines? Also, and this is just from observation - jewish guys aren't exactly "physically gifted" in a "big/strong/broad shouldered kind of way on the whole, and the US military pretty much promotes itself as "the thing to do" after your high school football/wrestling days are over(read: we want big muscle men). So I think there is a legitimate physical element to any under representation.
Wolman's point of "if you find yourself an able bodied young man, cheering for war, then sign your punk ass up" holds regardless of "identity" - I know a TON of regular ol' white guys who fit into the same category. To me, this is more of a "you see where this leads - the non stop war mongering from self described jewish quarters?" And in that sense, its an effective shot across the bow.
i think your sentiments are widely shared -- on another thread woody t. was saying the same thing. my thing is, i remember romney as governor here in mass - and heres a little secret: He was pretty good. Barry is gonna have a hard time with the Northeast "liberals" who are far from scared of Romney....
Nah -- they dont have the stones to do it. its all riding on barry and the o's -- that sick fuck is the one who might bet the house on war with iran. theres a good chance he loses if the vote was today - no better way to increase his standing with white men than to kill some brown men, ya know? I'd vote for Ahmadinejad before I voted for Barry again - F that guy.
I'm sure this will surprise the author - but I have no criticism's of this piece. Very well said, Bruce - and from the heart. You should be as proud of your father as he clearly is to wear the uniform in the picture above.
(For the record, I couldnt care less about jewish enlistment rates etc - it only becomes an issue when war advocacy becomes a "group" endeavor(in this case jewish), and at that point it is both appropriate and even necessary to make mention of the facts Bruce makes plain in this piece).
Semper Fidelis,
Dan
Just thought I'd throw this out there: There is no American Slavery Museum in Washington. Sort of like Germany having an American Slavery Museum, but no Holocaust Museum.
frankly i’d prefer to see a real live methodist declare that the self-styled adults have had their crack at it, and have failed miserably, and what’s more, we couldn’t give a dried fig if calls for BDS offend your tender sensibilities.
As Dex says: BAZINGA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fuckin' A Phil!
Seconded
The bit from Simon on Oren going over his head reminds me of the interview Amy Goodman did with Chomsky and Zinn on the "jihad" Dershowitz declared on Finkelstein - at one point, Goodman had to emphasize "the administration at DePaul actually wrote Harvard to get them to stop Dershowitz" which Goodman noted was pretty much unheard of in academia. Chomsky added: yes, stop this maniac!
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
NICE!!
I had sent this to the MW guys, was hoping it was gonna get posted. Robbins to the Rescue!! :)
Ben-Ari and Baruch Marzel are hardly "former" members of Kach - they just re-branded it. these cats are completely repugnant
HAHAHA!! And he bails his own hay -- hes in there like swimwear
well so is she, an utter fake that is...... i dont have a dog in the fight, but i do think brown will win.
Agreed - but that pretty much disqualifies any major party candidate - these people only know what they're told. If you've reached the level of US Senate Candidate, backed by one of the two parties - you are by definition not an independent and critical thinker. Ya know? Go Team Go is hardly a very intellectually stimulating excercise....:)
And anyway, Scooter Brown is gonna win. He's a local, went to Boston College, can chop wood and is a good looking dude - she's got no chance
"If she is only concerned with domestic economics, then she should simply shut up and not spout ignorant words on Iran or Israel"
--what a radical thought! :)
Definitely dumber.
How can you do this to Warren? She buys organic!! She loves whales! ( I think)
You're back on the horse Phil. You're posts of late have been tremendous. Must be riding high, with the Orioles playing so well...... :)
Here's my thing about the "inter-marriage" bit -- it seems like its assumed that the jewish parent loses out on the deal when it comes to the religion of their children. As in "if I marry a christian, my kids will be christians" -- I never got this, seems like a defeatist argument. Personally, I think inter-marriage offers a unique opportunity to "show-off" judaism, its teachings and traditions. Think of it like a try-out.
In my hometown, there are lots of mixed faith families, so to me, discussions of "inter-marriage" are dated, to put it charitably. Judaism's slogan should be "the more the merrier" and maybe with more non-ethnic jews in the jewish fold, we might work past this deep tribalism, where two people who love each other are in some quarters considered a threat to the larger group.
yes, Hever really is....
That was a fantastic read seafoid -- I have to say, Hever is a real force. I saw a real news interview with him and he was asked if he was a zionist - his answer (paraphrased of course) was: Well, to the extent that I am a jewish israeli, I live here and make my home here, and dont want to leave, sure - I am a zionist.
I have to say, I dug it. He spoke in the language of reality, which in our world qualifies you as a radical.
The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also — since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself — unshakeably certain of being in the right.
---Orwell, notes on nationalism
link to orwell.ru
Barack Obama wouldn't say the same thing about Bibi in public? puh-leeze. This is the OFFICIAL position of the United States - as repugnant as Cantor is, he's very much in the mainstream of "official" opinion, regardless of the anonymous rumblings passed along to us by some sympathetic journos..... Another thing - all the "how dare you take sides against the president when it comes to foreign policy" shit was just as stupid when W. and co were doing it.
The worst phrase ever is "politics stops at the waters edge" - nonsense. Whatever else is true about Cantor and the Republicans, they arent going to cower from the office of the president, unlike their democratic colleagues - if anything, we should be praising Cantor for keepin it real - at least the guy is consistent.
A-greed.
:)
fckin seafoid! haha.
"we will never forgive them for making us smash them in the face with our rifles"
right?
if you're "with" them, why dont you write about them? i dont get the sense that you are all that interested in the "other" middle eastern countries - theres precious little here about the rest of the region; yet, without any explanation as to "why" you're "with" the syrian rebels, you just throw it out there.....what gives? "with" them to the extent that the US gets directly involved? more importantly, what "rebels" are we talking about? the private citizens with legitimate beefs, or the foreigners (read: al qaeda)?? Money, arms and fighters are flooding into syria right now, you support this?
Oh I agree. Great musician, for sure. Kind of had a similar thing with Beck. Loved his stuff, but when I found out he was a scientologist.......well, what can I say?
The Joshua Tree is still one of my all time favorites; Bono, not so much.
Well, on my list of things not to do.....travelling to Israel is/was pretty high on the list, but I do appreciate the warnings!
The IDF "took it on the chin" in southern lebanon a few years ago - you know, when they had to fight against guys with actual guns and shit.
Note to Zio-psuedo-tough guys - when trying to make a point about "tough" Jews or Israeli's - dont make the guy with his belly hanging over his belt your poster boy. This guy looks like a stuffed sea-bag in his uniform.
My version: I know you don't like the word apartheid.......but too friggin bad, go blow it out your ass.
I find it amazing that even still guys like Barghouti feel the need to make mitigating statements to assuage the (fears? sensibilities?) of american jews.
seems to me, if you're one of these american jews obsessed with israel because you think it provides you a potential safe haven etc - thats on you. keep your baggage to yourselves, please. and the non jewish friends of zionist american jews should be calling them out on it. so much of the arguments for israel and zionism have been internalized, i dont think that many (young) jews actually know what they're saying when they say things like "its necessary" or "its there as an insurance" etc. Ive done it, and was surprised by the reactions I got - I actually had jewish guys trying to assuage MY hurt feelings when I said "Oh, so you think I hate you, underneath it all?" Part of being friends with people is calling them on their bullshit, it strengthens ties, it doesnt break them.
It never ceases to amaze how unprofessional the IDF is, they have absolutely no discipline, actual skills or any idea of how serious weapons handling is - its something I saw when I witnessed the IDF training in the US.
Look at the way the guy handles his rifle. With his barrel pointed right at his buddy, and with his hands all over the weapons sights, potentially ruining his "dope" -military code for the zeroing of the iron sights. To say nothing of the fact that his weapon is loaded, probably with a round in the chamber.
Only a hack, part time security guard, mall cop type of "soldier" would handle a weapon that way. This is not a serious military. They are simple thugs.
Its ANYTHING you want it to be, Mikey - didnt you get the memo?!?!
Jonas Salk, Albert Einstein, Noam Chomsky........Daniella Weiss.
"one of these things is not like the others........"
"Exile" never looked so good, eh?
Right on the money MHughes with your post
I’m visiting your part of the world shortly, Dan, and am looking forward to the authentic Boston eating and drinking experience.
-----------------------------------------------------------
NICE!! Eating and drinking are what we do best. You are more than welcome to get my contact info from Phil, if you need a tour guide, thought Id throw it out there.......
What percentage? What an idiotic comment.
How did a post about american white supremacists become a referendum on anti-jewish sentiment in the palestinian solidarity movement?
Freddy says:
“State for all its citizens” is code for “dismantling the Jewish State”
----------------------
I think its actually code for "democracy"
Thats what Im asking Lexikon.....Got no idea myself.
yeah, ive heard of this racism of zizek's before, usually in regards to his "capitalism with asian values" discussions.
I dunno, I find most accusations of racism in unabashed leftists like Zizek to be mostly unfounded, and most of the time, pretty distasteful. The state socialists and the communist apologists loathe the guy, and in our current uber PC world, calling someone a racist is the best way to knock them off their pedastal. See Atzmon, Gilad.
I personally find his way of thinking to be interesting, I dont always agree with him, but what I cant stand anymore is the "someone called him a racist, therefore no on should take him seriously" stuff I hear all the time (in different machinations) from the PC police. Not that you're one of them.
Cant wait to see Zizek tuggin at his tee-shirt, wiping his face and finger combing his hair all the way through his performance! Slavoj is the man.
His latest book sounds like a great read, gotta go pick it up
I have seen footage of 60 minutes interviews be edited in a way that distorts the truth about I/P - but whatever else is true, Wallace's interview with Meir Kahane were very important in letting americans know that Israel and Israeli's can be more than capable of extreme racism and violence.
But before we give ANY american "reporter" the freedom medal - we should remember that Wallace, 60 minutes and the rest were all complicit in the war in Iraq.
Well Freddy "they" did very little to save themselves. And that is where I think most of the anger from zionists comes from - you cant fathom (nor can I) how millions were herded into ghettos and then rail cars with very little resistance on the whole. And you hate being associated with it, so you go super macho man in regards to Palestine.
Is this a break with the "official left" aka the Democratic Party? Man, that would be GRRRREAT!!
NICE!!!
I dont think Hillel Slovak would approve of Israel's policies. They should honor his memory by standing up to discrimination.
HAHAHAHA!!!
"these visits should be balanced by similar experiences with Israelis within Israel."
----------------------------------------------
Somehow I dont think Foxman is talking about non-jewish israelis, who also happen to be israeli citizens.
Foxman really is just a detestable guy, huh?
Its kind of strange that perhaps the most controversial stance finkelstein takes - his loyalty oath to Gandhi- is the least remarked on, whereas his less controversial statement, regarding the extent to which "the lobby" is/was the main culprit in american foreign policy draws the most attention.
There isnt even an Indian consensus on Gandhi. This is the man after all who sent "violent" indian resistance fighters to their death, while creating what amounted to a totalitarian cult, with himself as its leader. And Finkelstein remarks on this in interviews, joking of the "little tyrant" that Gandhi was. But, maybe Finkelsteins worship of Gandhi does make sense, in the context of throwing their brethren under the bus when they act in ways not condoned by the self appointed gurus.
WOW. The Beilin letter is unbelievable. Let's get Yossi on a plane to the states RIGHT NOW and explain his letter in public, repeatedly.
Levy is a force.
Nice one Phil.
Nuclear weapons play a big time role in the conflict (not only I/P but I/ME)
Its a little more than disconcerting that Israel has a nuclear arsenal, for obvious reasons. No shame in stating that fact.
link to articles.latimes.com
Masada was not an example to follow--it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Sampson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens?
---David Perlmutter
Shit, Phil my brother, your a good looking guy, give yourself some credit man.
I didnt know "so many non-jews want to marry jews" (especially for money) -- truth be told, I thought it was the other way around. Most of my friends who are jewish refused to date jewish girls in high school and in college, knowing that eventually, "they would have to marry" a jewish girl; and from my own experience, I can say alot of jewish girls are/were thinking the same thing. (wink wink nod nod)
Did Christie have to buy two airline tickets? haha. What a P.O.S.
In addition to. yes. recognizing the supremacy of import in the former :)
my man....
Selective qouting from hostage
my full passage makes clear i am not ignorant of the 14th amendment - thanks for the lesson though
Woody, per usual you make a lot of good points. And I think that if we were having this conversation face to face, and I was able to better fully express my thoughts, we would largely agree.
Living where i live (in roxbury mass) i get upset and down right angry at the situation that continues to confront minorities in the US, and black people in particular. And I do view some of identity politics (especially as it pertains to black folks) as a clever way to feign progress in a social setting.
I do agree with some of what Don said (not the calling me an idiot part) and I do agree that white protestant conservatives do think that way. My point is to say: F Those People. We should be doing like the Europeans do, holding anti-racism, anti-nativist rallies and such and making direct challenges to them. Americans always run in fear from white conservatives, I dont understand this. But it should be clear, these people do not have monopoly on "American" and, I still hold that the best way to combat this perceived monopoly is for everyone else to simply say "I am an American" and leave it at that. Let the white conservatives come up with some hyphenization that will make it clear to everyone that they live in a self created mental ghetto.
The Black American struggle is a different thing though, from what we see among the ID politickers now - and its inextricably linked to economics - I doubt highly that black guys in the south really gave a F about what white folks thought of them, pretty sure they knew. They wanted economic rights first and foremost. Like I said above, the white liberals were with King and Co. on the marches for civil rights, but were largely absent from his organizing of strikes and boycotts post civil rights - which underscores my point: You will be allowed to identify as you like, but if you take it a step further and work for economic freedom etc. you will get killed. Just like King, just like Malcolm, just like the (communist) black panthers.
Just one more thing, and as Ive said, you make a lot of good points: ID politics does limit the scope that one views society through, especially in a capitalist society such as ours. I personally think that a asian american plumber has very little in common with an asian american hedge fund manager (socially speaking)- but within this construct, the plumber is forced into the same societal category as the hedge fund manager, and is also "forced" to view the hedge fund manager's position as a "asian american acheivement" even though the hedge fund guy might be making deals that will F the plumber (say by investing in some big plumbing outsourcing business). And we've seen this with other groups over and over.
Second, you cite “I AM A MAN” posters. But that was the point. At that time, the larger society would not make that simple statement, (hence the slur, “boy”) because of the bigotry I mentioned earlier. It was a statement that said, in essence, “you do not get to immasculate me because of my race.” In similar fashion, the term “African-American” is a way of saying, “you do not get to strip from me my national identity because of my race.”
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In alot of cases, those posters were placards, worn on picket lines.
I dont understand the statement about "african american." the black people in america who descend from slaves have a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better claim to "american" and really, America than most any of us. What a horror that society continues to stick the knife in with further description and categorization.
They were united in an international struggle for equality and fair and humane conditions of life for all men, women, and children.
Well Hostage, I guess you agree with me too, because this was my point.
I'll leave Don'c comment aside
“If the conventional wisdom on the definition of ‘american’ was once ‘white male from northern europe etc’ – the reaction of everyone else (taking on a hyphen) only reinforces that definition. ”
No, it’s explicitly saying that one can be something other than a white northern-european heterosexual protestant and still be an American because, as a result of raising of people’s awareness on this issue, “American” is no longer limited to just one small part of the people.
“no one should have to defend their ‘americaness’ and thats the point.”
And no one is. They are stating, in an in-your-face manner, that simply because they are gay, female, Muslim, Irish, whatever, they will not let that alter the fact that they are Americans. It is a statement of pride, not a defense.
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So, before we continue talking past each other, I should make clear (and woody is well aware of this) that Im no right winger or frustrated white dude who thinks his country is being taken away and so on.
It's not a statement of pride, Woody. It is a defense. Now, I understand full well that people consider it a statement of pride - but it isn't. It doesnt make sense to identify - a permanent status- within the context of an ephemeral economic construct. Why focus your energy on combating the arbitrary "conventional wisdom" of what american means? My thing is, I would be much more interested in hitting those white folks in the wallet, than creating alternative identities and focusing on that stuff. The "Man" is not threatened at all by identity politics, my opinion is that if we want to change anything, the "Man" is going to have to feel threatened. How do we make the Man feel threatened? You know - non participation, civil disobedience, work place organizing, boycotts, strikes and so on.
My most basic point: All those folks with the "in your face" would be MUCH better served organizing on economic grounds to get their views across - and they would dovetail with other "groups" with like minded interests. I say this all the time to friends of mine who are gay, "if you guys really wanted to get gay marriage etc all over the country in straight away - make your "gay" protests restaurant waitstaff strikes (and go from there)." Gay men (for example) could shut down entire municipalities. And its like this across the board; dont make your demands in the street, pleading with people to "understand and accept" you; hit em in the wallet. At least in my opinion.
Lets get a few things clear(er)
The Irish and Jews joined labor unions and weren't afraid to be called "socialists" they went out and took control over their lives in meaningful ways - thats #1
#2 -- When I look at old footage of civil rights protests, I see signs that say, " I AM A MAN" -- not a black man, not a african american man, just "i am a man"
#3 The Chicano movement was also labor based and was about economic rights, not about creating a new identity
#4 The fat liberals who cheered on civil rights, when all it was going to mean was black folks becoming a democratic party voting bloc had very little to say about King's post civil rights work: Union Organizing and Strike Coordination. He was at a strike, organizing when he got killed. Crickets from the liberals.
So, what to do when its not socially acceptable to be a socialist or affiliated with Labor? You create identity politics. Its a liberal capitalist society creation. And its one of the most full of shit creations I can think of. Identity politics is for cowards who dont want to say they are anti-capitalist, OR its for the upper crust of these identity groups that know they can make a killing off "their" group(s) -- We have way too much evidence of this for me to get into it.
If the conventional wisdom on the definition of "american" was once "white male from northern europe etc" - the reaction of everyone else (taking on a hyphen) only reinforces that definition. If "we hold these truths to be self evident" no one should have to defend their "americaness" and thats the point.
Oh OK Piotr - so now theres a "american" judaism? Sort of like a lot of the evangelicals have "americanized" christianity? Give me a break. When people start to "nationalize" religions or their associated traditions, I call BS. You don't get to do that.
This is what happens when we let dickhead German monks decide for themselves what they like and don't like about their religions - it becomes a free for all. And if you have to keep on inventing new "forms" of religions that are thousands of years old to keep pace with your new environs and "the times" - why not just give it up? it obviously doesnt mean much, if your gonna keep tweaking it to fit your present reality.....
I never knew the Bill of Rights and the Constitution were designed to confer "minority rights" - I thought they just outlined what rights all men have inherently. This is the problem with calling yourself a "(fill in the blank) american" -- As far as the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are concerned (and after some important "updates") men are men. That's kind of an important thing, I should say.
So important, that if you take the founding documents seriously (as I do) and also take into consideration the documents and works they were based on, one can with a straight face, and in all seriousness ask, "what the hell is an "american jew"?
I know that there are americans who happen to be Jewish, but Ive not heard of a special american form of judaism. And the same goes for "american catholics" and the like. Its nonsense, in my opinion. The "american" in the identity cancels out the religious or ethnic affiliation.
In other words, you don't get to be "an american jew" -- you only get to be an american, who happens to be jewish. It's this distinction, more than anything else that grants true freedom to minorities - "american" as a political identity is probably the greatest expression of shared humanity there is, as it describes nothing about the individual, but says everything about the ideals that person shares with his/her brothers and sisters in society. I take offense at people who hyphenate their american identity, and I do so because its completely unnecessary and runs counter to what "american" is supposed to mean. People should take it more seriously, in my opinion.
hahaha!! your alright with me Bruce! Bruce, brother I dont have a team. I get a little hot under the collar, especially when Im at work (which is when I do my commenting) Frankly, Ive been to innumerable group meetings, spent a ton of time at occupy boston (you name it, ive tried it out, and gotten a sense of what most activists are doin'). And its incredibly frustrating; the "process" in occupy, the complete unwillingness to state the inconvenient truths as not to "offend" and the near total detachment of activist groups from the greater society.
I find the "left" to be deeply, deeply authoritarian, as 99% of left activism is about changing the minds of the ruling class, anointing its own to be members of the ruling class, and doing so within the context of "winning the battle for the true soul of america" -- in large part, the left offers the same patriotic, nationalistic world view the right does, only the arbitrary definitions of things are different.
And when I look around, I find that really only the Ron Paul cats are holding true to the traditions of enlightenment liberalism - however misguided in their uber capitalism they might be. I think the left needs to go back and read Von Humboldts "limits of state action" and think long and hard about their advocacy of "better government" in the form of more and more institutions. My personal view is that the focus should be on "what has to go" rather than what can be created - institutionally speaking- to reform our government and society. We need a real libertarian left.
And I think americans are ready to hear a left wing criticism and denouncement of modern american "liberalism" - look at gorgeous george galloway in britain. first time ever a left winger took a seat from labor when they were in the opposition. And galloway hardly minces his words - and people respond to it.
Thats a whole lot of words for saying very little Bruce.
We all read your article. you gave a blow by blow of "how" the I/p conflict was going to be resolved ( i totally disagree with your analysis btw) and it included admittedly violent revolutions across the middle east as a requirement all because (as you again admit) americans and westerners generally cant get off their ass, or are pre-occupied by hand held technology, tv or in some cases ineffective activism. Why not write that article? Why not write the post that says "hey fckin asshole americans, and especially so called american liberals, we're now in a position where the only thing that can save us is violent revolutions in countries half a world away"
As for my general disdain for "activists" - I played competitive sports my entire childhood, we kept score. Ever since the real left sold out to the democratic party (in the 30's and the 60's) theres been no meaningful "left"
If people cant admit that "we've lost" and that its time to radically rethink some things, well -I dont know what to tell you. Our society has gotten nothing but harder as the number of "activist" groups has grown, not saying they are connected, but whatever else is true, we're in a pretty bad way, and no one should be ridiculing the guy ridiculing the current "left"
What is more likely to happen, the United States dealing with its “real core problems” or Saudis rebelling against their highly repressive rulers?
--- More likely? Who knows. Not you or I, thats for sure. One thing is for sure - the saudi's rebelling will be a lot bloodier. We live in a pretty open society (especially relative to ME monarchies) and can effect change without widespread violence; rooting it on in saudi arabia, in order to make the changes you/I want to see in the US, is pretty distasteful in my opinion. The Saudi's shouldnt have to do our dirty work.
As for the Greeks - their population has little to no say in what goes on there. And they are out in the streets daily, and have been. You do the Greeks an extreme disservice by equating them with Americans. I agree with your points about americans.
"The US elite may “pivot” the country towards Asia one day, but its freedom of action is going to be far more constrained than what it currently faces in the Middle East. Addressing the challenge from Asian economies rather than devoting most resources to Middle East “terrorism” will by itself indicate a sobering up to reality."
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What do you mean "one day"? Korea,Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia - the genocide we supported in East Timor, shall I continue? The US empire in every region goes through "hot and cold" periods in different regions, but it never "leaves."
I cant believe I just read "addressing the challenges from asian economies" here. What "challenges" are "we" talking about here? A potentially higher standard of living in Asia? How horrible. Asian countries entering into commercial agreements not sanctioned by the US? E-gads. There's probably nothing else to say here, Bruce. It seems like you have internalized the imperial mindset. You dont have a problem with the US doing it what it does, you just don't like the killing. I get that.
As for strategies -- "dont follow leaders, and watch your parkin' meters"
Jokes aside, the only thing anyone of conscience can do is to organize calls for boycotts, strikes and so on. Economic sanctions are the only arrow in the quiver. But that would require people taking their "left handed transgenders for student debt relief" hats. But we all know how much activists love themselves, so thats gonna be tricky.
Here's the problem: If (and its a big, big if) the US "gets kicked out of the Middle East" - what do we think happens? I'll tell you: We'll double down in Asia and other parts of the world. The "pivot" to Asia?
Seems to me that the US has engaged in bloody shooting wars directly and indirectly, across the globe for over a century. It also seems like we just take for granted that a "US withdrawal" from the region will mean a "US Invasion" (for lack of a better term) of other regions. And here's the kicker - alot of "palestinian solidarity" cats will cheer it on. Juan Cole, for example, detests the Israeli occupation of Palestine, but was "Bombs away" in regards to Libya. The list goes on and on.
This to me is the problem with focusing so much on a relatively small part of the "american empire" and by confusing things even further with "identity" politics. The idea of anti-war/pro-democracy Americans having to wait around for their Saudi counterparts to start a potentially violent revolution really says it all. It says we are much more interested in being comfortable than doing what is necessary, and Im not talking about taking up arms and all that jazz - Im talking about tossing aside all our little pet projects and focusing on the real core problems, that we can all agree on: (1) There is no rule of Law in the US (2) Our Government operates in near total secrecy (3) We live in a oligarchic society that grants undo power and influence to the wealthiest among us
In other words, we need to kick the US government out of the US. Then there will be no more "pivots" and the continuation of the "whack-a-mole" foreign policy.
OK, "they didnt all die to save jews" -- Hoph, is it your opinion that ones humanity is judged by "saving Jews"?
My view is that Hophmi isnt so much angry with the Gentiles for not saving Jews as much as Hophmi is angry at the Jews for allowing themselves to be herded into Ghettos and then trains like cattle. Cuz that is exactly what happened, and its as undeniable as the 60-70 million that died throughout the world during the war.
If you feel a sense of shame Hoph, thats one thing - but to mitigate the sacrifice of millions in the effort to save the world from darkness by going back to the holocaust till is pretty distasteful.
the polish side of my family who didnt emigrate to the US died the same way polish jews did - as did 3 million non jewish poles. But I aint mad at them, and I certainly dont blame their deaths on "the rest of the world"
You gotta get over yourself Hoph
" I am not the Catholic nominee for president, I am the Democratic party's nominee for president, who happens also to be Catholic"
-- John F. Kennedy
Bruce -- first let me say, you have no idea who I am or what I do. We can go back and forth all day asking "who do you think you are" type of questions. I myself am at work - and in between demo's of my businesses software with prospective clients, I post comments at MW - mainly because I find the content interesting, comments included.
When Im not at work, I'm also "out there" -- tonight for example, I'll be going to Copley square in boston to commemorate land day in palestine. probably followed by a "rally" of sorts. After the rally, I will probably head over the VFW on Tremont street for a cheap beer with some friends - one of the very few privileges of being a veteran.
My comment was merely to highlight the EXTREME detachment from the greater world evidenced in this latest bit from JVP. But that's typically what happens to Identity Politics Cats - they cant see the forest for the trees. Fah-Q Bruce.
From Max Blumenthals blog:
Update/correction: I received the following note today from Peter Beinart explaining why his East Bay appearance was cancelled: “[The East Bay JCC] pulled out because a JVP person was moderator and then when there were no sponsors who were Zionist and anti-full BDS, I pulled out. I did that sadly–cause I agree with JVP on the awfulness of the occupation–but given my strong opposition to BDS targeting all of Israel, it didn’t make sense for me to speak to a forum in which there was not one anti-BDS organization sponsoring.”
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"I'd much rather do that work inside of a community where we trust each other enough to have these deep debates."
Same thing.
Kids dont have to use the word zionist, because its been completely internalized (as evidenced here) -- I gotta say, I think Atzmon has a point about Anti Zionist Zionists - So, the ol' two "peoples" need to be "liberated"? WOW. Just. WOW.
I suppose if I am going to read criticisms of others, which is basically what this piece is -- listen to "us," we're serious (and jewish) and know stuff about the law and what upper crust people (like us) will accept and what they won't accept in "polite" company-- I guess I will offer a couple of my own. (1) Who uses THIS kind of language? "In process" -- Haha. I mean, you pretty much have to be a Sarah Lawrence undergrad to even think that a phrase like this has ANY meaning.
(2) Not everyone feels a need to be protected or to be in "safe" environments before they state how they fee,l and frankly, after decades of koom-baya circles and "how does this make you feel" Drivel from "the left" maybe the thing we need most is some unmitigated Honesty, regardless of the present company. I'll start: I find those who offer "advice" to others in this arena self indulgent in the extreme. In the context of what is taking place in Palestine, to use the phrase "become a life long learner" says it all. It really does. Spend your entire life discussing and debating the best way to discuss and debate the horrors taking place in Palestine, within the koom-baya circle approved by JVP.
(3) They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result; well, I think this applies to "the left" and long time activisits. You lost. It's time to change up, or step aside. Its really as simple as that. Whatever small gains have been made in regards to justice in Palestine can only be thought of real victories if we view them in a vaccuum. The US is now a post constitutional dictatorship in waiting, Europe is ruled by unelected bankers and their henchmen, Africa is being re-destroyed, Central and South America are back in the sights of the state dept and the CIA, to say nothing of the on-going wars and the wars on the way; We are witnessing, right now the world over, the greatest paradigm shift in generations, for the worse, by a whole lot, and we're here talking about how to get your point across with out offending people. It would be funny if it wasnt so tragic.
HAHAAA!! What a generous guy, that Ajl.
And again, I find it the height of hilarity that Lobby Fetishists bash Keith as an Israel apologist, pseudo zionist or whatever, and then guys like Max Ajl - a tried and true tribalist- call him a white supremacist jew hater for his views on the same subject. Which one is it?
The fact of the matter is, Keith ( and hopefully myself) thinks for himself, and isnt going to drink the kool-aid and go full blankfort because its the conventional wisdom at mondoweiss. Sorry that facts sometimes get in the way of "Its always the Zionists, all the time"
Wow, shots fired! hahaha.
Not sure what brought this on. Whatever else is true about what I write here, I never reply to someone else's comments and call them names and such, insult their intelligence or mock their opinions - except for the triple e crowd, I do mock them. The Ron Paulites and the Lobby fetishists can't say the same; don't agree with them to the extent they want you to, you're an idiot.
What kind of description are you looking for? Its all right in front of you. Me mentioning that the Israeli's are proactively looking to secure energy sources, along with the rest of the world, and also expand their base of arms customers etc is in no way a 'the lobby doesnt exist" argument. And the Nabucco/South Stream issue is a major issue, between dozens of countries - some in the middle east. How is that Mondoweiss talks about water resources all the time, but never mentions gas and other resources - seems like it might be a worthwhile topic; or maybe not.
So, there cant be anything in my post that you think is false - as all I really did was point to some articles, useful maps (perhaps) and make a comment about how this seems to be part of a overall strategy to cut off Iran from, yes, "Pipelineistan," and integrate as many countries as possible into a energy "pact" that will be controlled by the big bosses - to include russia and china, to be sure. This all happens in broad daylight, no conspiracy necessary.
If nothing I said in my post ( and I didnt really say much) was incorrect, what's the problem? The Israelis made formal deals with the Greek Cypriots and it comes out a day or so later that they are close with the Azerbaijiani's - something everybody already knew. I pointed out that these two countries reside on the prospective pipeline Israel is trying to hitch its wagon to, pretty uncontroversial to me.
The Azerbaijian's are of course denying that they gave the Israeli's access per AFP:
link to google.com
At some point, we're going to have to discuss the South Stream and Nabucco pipelines, the analysis of Pepe Escobar and others, and what exactly is taking place here, other than just "the Zionists want to blow up Iran," which is not to say that "the Zionists dont want to blow up Iran," they definitely do.
Just the other day, the Israeli Foreign Ministry, along with their counterparts in Greece and Cyprus announced a greater "strategic alliance" along with full access (post Israeli upgrades etc) to Cypriot air bases, along with joint exploration projects in the Med - which is directly tied to Azerbaijian, the pipelines and the dirty business of "state planning" that, in my opinion, goes overlooked most of the time 'round here.
link to washingtonpost.com
www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=link to transatlanticpolitics.com
link to google.com
link to atimes.com
I can just see the IDF recruitment poster: Rape and Lobster (during war times only, please ask your server about other specials)
Max Blumenthal should take this to the streets of Tel Aviv, like in his "feeling the loyalty to the Jewish State" video.
What is going to be heee-frickin-larious is the ziobots below me on this thread screaming out: Israel is not as bad as Genghis Khan!! HAHAHA. A few years ago, it was "israel is not as bad as China or North Korea" then it was "Israel is not as bad as Zimbabwe or Sudan" -- Now, its Stalin and Genghis Khan........We're slowly wittling away at the list, Zio's......
Yeah Chu I read that - Abourzek is a funny guy. Ted Kennedy also believed the Warren Commission.........or so he said publicly
Telling that this post only has a few comments - not much to say when the friggin right wing libertarian is out-lefting the left. hilarious. cheers rand, you weird mofo.
elected "liberals" have got to be the most full of sh*t people in the country
I think thats pretty significant - 40% on board in the face of a overwhelming opposition using all its resources to drown out the BDS'ers? Id say that's a step in the right direction - hopefully this can serve as a moral affirmation to people who have remained silent.
Doesnt Omar Barghouti go to Tel Avi University?
life is long
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Well, not for everyone. Not for Iraqi's and not for my some of my friends.
Not trying to be a sob sister here, but adovcating aggressive war isnt the same advocating for the red sox to sign carl crawford and then apologizing later because he had a shtty first season, ya know? I know you know, Phil - I'll leave it alone. (and yes, liberal zionism, the iraq war and baseball all in one post!) :)
"One reason I admire Beinart is he is a reflective man who has done penance for his Iraq mistake."
You lost me there. To me, the "which side were you on before the invasion of Iraq" question is the most important question in terms of getting at a public figures integrity. He failed. Miserably. But because he has no shame, and no one else seems to care, he still gets an outlet. Unreal. What do you have to do to become an outcast? Is there anything someone "on the inside" as Beinart is can say or do to get disavowed and disregarded? Oh, wait, there is one thing you can say to get disowned: Free Palestine.
oh shoot, i totally misread that - i thought it was coming back to the court....cheers annie