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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Nice post Phil - hopefully a prelude to the full return of Blankfort.
If these guys are successful, O could be in real trouble. Ive been saying it for a long while now, Barry ain't the favorite. According to his old Law School Professor, that's the way it should be:
link to youtube.com
'Only a political reversal can allow the voice of democratic prophecy to speak once again in American life.'
- Roberto Unger
See, the liberal zionists claim another victim
Ive had a van with blacked out windows outside my apt since I posted that..... :)
Come and Get me!! haha
DBRONCOS-
That 4% number is not to be believed, I am sorry to say. go up thread and read Avi's post on the AJ. Having grown up in a "liberal" reform jewish community - I can say, from an anecdotal perspective, its waaaaaaay more than 4%.
MJR:
I don’t care about the “Jewish narrative” whatever that is.
--------------
I actually did define it, vulgarly I will admit. I was referring to the sort of eternal justification for jewish tribalism, your tribalism. You did famously say "I will always choose the jewish cause" - whatever that means.
The fact of the matter is, I agree with you for the most part. But I do consider some of your views sectarian. And if you truly opposed war with Iran, you wouldn't be a democratic party operative.
My main man Avi back in the mix, slaying the dragon. good to have you back brother
Ive read this guys stuff for years, so my questions (and what informs them) go beyond just this post
Hmm. So "Israel Firster" is now a Obama re-election ploy? I dont get it. Is Rosenberg saying a vote for Obama (or against Romney) is a vote against war with Iran? Rosenberg might do well to read the latest from the leverett's.
Gotta love these liberal zionists man, they start out so well, using the language of justice and truth, and then BLAM! they tell you their real impetus for their actions: to 'save' Jews from themselves. Thats fine as far as it goes, which isnt very far - but its not really a rally cry for the other 98% of the US, is it? Because, if you think about it, the other 98% would, presumably, be coming to "help" just as they realize that nearly all of organized american jewry has been acting in ways that directly jeopardize everyone in the US. That doesnt engender a lot of warm feelings, does it?
Rosenberg worries about jews becoming unwelcome in the states. I for one, am not (kind of a weird, unnecessary worry in my opinion) but lets ask an important question: If a scenario like the one Rosenberg mentions does arise in America, might it then be time to rethink some of the standard "uncontested" "truths" about the history of "the jewish people?" In my life, I was always told Jews got kicked out of places because of a racial hatred, but if Jews were all of a sudden discriminated against in America, bastion of pro jewish sentiment, it would have to be because of actions taken by Jews. There would be no other explanation.
So, does Rosenberg fear persecution against Jews in the states for the obvious reasons, or does Rosenberg also worry that if the tables turned on american jews, they would also turn on the "jewish narrative?" The one that goes something like "we were persecuted throughout history for who we were" Other americans might begin to ask "was it because of who you were, or what you did?" Hmmm. Terrible questions to be sure.
SISTER TAXI TO MY RESCUE!!!!
American,
I think we are talking past each other (again) - I really dont need a history lesson.
I am at work most of the time when I post, so yeah - I generally make declarative statements, but you can go through my archive and find posts with multiple links and citations, and I would think that after several years of commenting here you would have a sense that Im pretty well informed on these topics. Or maybe not. Im the guy who put you on to Jackie Rose after all. I do read, and I read a lot of original source material. Jstor is great.
Once again (with feeling) I KNOW Israel plays a large role in egyptian/us relations. My point was to say, rather than being an outlier (israel is the reason we support tyranny in egypt, when we support democracy in the rest of the world); israel is just another pretext, one of hundreds, used by the US planners to justify supporting authoritarian rule. That is so uncontroversial a statement, there is nothing more to say. North asked is israel the reason we support the new tyranny, my response was "No." If Israel wasnt there, there would be another reason. And there is. Saudi Arabia. Independent secular arab nationalism in Egypt is a non starter for the house of saud. And there are others. thats my point, there is always a reason, always pretext etc for the US to do what it does. And having been a Marine, as you know, your goddam right I blame US Imperialism, Ive seen it first hand, I know what it looks and smells like.
link to therealnews.com
There is no constant support for tyrannies around the world from the United States Government? WOW.
Your statement here piotr couldnt be more false:
It is more precise to note that the American support is not related in any way to democratic forms and practices of a government.
------------------------------
There are endless state planning documents that say just the opposite. But why look there when you can just count the american military bases all over the world (over 800). I guess they are there to "prop up" democracy....... Or we could just harken back to the days before the arab spring (where the support for tyranny fell out of favor, for a bit) and remember that our support for tyranny around the world was a "necessary evil" - the dictators we supported were the "devils we know".
to clear up something - i was talking about american policy generally, not specifically in regards to egypt. American was right to be confused by what i posted. my point is that we see a uniformity in US policy toward the developing world, the non whte world, the resource rich parts of the world. While there may be a israeli/zionist component to the case of egypt, in the grand scheme of things, its rather insignificant, because if we look at the policies in their totality, we find that while the specifics change in each country or region, the support for authoritarian regimes is constant.
link to books.zcommunications.org
American says:
June 19, 2012 at 5:19 pm
@ Dan,
Do you ever actually study periods and historic US relations with countries you talk about?
--------------------------------
Its amazing you would think someone would actually answer a question posed this way. Gotta love you anonymous tough guys. What a joke. See ya later.
What I am saying is, look at the constants. If a certain behavior is constant for a very long time, but over time the impetus for that behavior changes - what is more important to focus on? I would say the behavior. If you look at it that way, you can say "here is nearly a century worth of consistent policy, though some of the specifics, the finer details, have changed" -- Then we could have a serious conversation about what US policy looks like in the rest of the region (that goes mostly untouched here) and the rest of the world. But if we are going to look at nearly a century of support for tyranny and only comment on this latest so-called "zionist influenced" period (or whatever you want to call it post cold war), we are in the words of norm finkelstein being "so unserious"
This is the kind of response that drives me nuts. So, in the 50's and the 60's there was a different pretext for supporting tyranny, and now there is another. What is the constant? US support for tyranny. Why cant we just say that? Oh, because this is mondoweiss where everything wrong with US foreign policy is mindlessly blamed on "The Zionists"
Egypt is a long standing US Client State - you can say "arab nationalism" or "marxist revolution" but you leave out the MOST IMPORTANT aspect of both, if they were to materialize: Policy Making Independent of the US.
That is what is unacceptable to the US. Uncle Sam only cares about commies if they aren't in the fold.
"Could the Israel lobby explain why the Obama administration is letting the Egyptian generals overturn a peaceful, democratic revolution?"
------------------------------------
No, no it couldn't. Unless "the lobby" is also responsible for official US support of other military coups, from Chile to Indonesia over the last century (we could go back further as well). The support of tyranny is a time honored tradition in amerian foreign policy.
One last thing -- Russia was found to have given the Israeli's the security codes to the missile defense system they sold to the iranians
Wikileaks via Ynet:
link to ynetnews.com
According to the leaked document, Israel gave Russia the "data link codes" for unmanned aerial vehicles that the Jewish state sold to Georgia, and in return, Russia gave Israel the codes for Tor-M1 missile defense systems that Russia sold Iran. (Ynet)
So maybe now we can cease with the kumbaya, russia loves iran NONSENSE?!?!?!
Iran was a UNITED STATES CLIENT - NOT RUSSIAN UNTIL 1979. THE US BUILT THEIR NUCLEAR REACTOR UNDER THE SHAH. PUTIN CAN SAY WHATEVER HE WANTS ABOUT KINDRED SPIRITS, IT DOESNT MEAN HE MEANS IT. WAKE UP AND STOP THINKING WORLD LEADERS CARE ABOUT PEOPLE.
So now Putin and Co. are worried about the living conditions in Iran? Does anyone seriously believe that? Vlad will make sure Iran gets carved up to his liking, but to think that Russia is somehow committed to the Islamic Republic as it is, is nuts. Does anyone really think that NATO and the BRICS want major oil and gas producers developing alternative energies domestically? Does anyone think the big boys want Iran to be able to sell off its oil as it wishes? To ask these questions is to answer them.
I didnt use quotes to attribute what was quoted to you, I used quotes for orwellian and nonsensical terms like "missile defense" - nothing to do with you.
Call me crazy, but I think "all these issues" that Obama refers to are US/Russia issues - missile defense, Georgia, Tartus, the pipelines, the list goes on. The question is whether Obama was asking for "space" on the Iranian Nuclear Issue from the Russians, and I dont think he was.
"missile defense" is about a first strike capability, thats how missile defense is understood by all parties. going by what you are saying, Obama is asking for "space" on the "iranian issue" - but thats not at all what happened, these guys were talking about the US and Russia. The fact that the US uses Iran as a pretext for "missile defense" in Europe doesnt make it true, in fact, the opposite is true. Vlad knows the score. If obama was asking for "space" on a nuclear issue - its the US/Russian nuclear issue, not the Iranian one.
I thought the "space" was about missile defense. Pretty sure it was about missile defense.
You got a beef with C-SPAN, but then you refer to Leslie Gelb as "the eminent" - somehow I dont think you meant simply "highly visible". This ass hat cheerleads for war because he wants to keep up his "credibility" with his "community" (funny how anytime someone refers to "community", they're usually talking about a bunch of assholes) and you give the guy his props. This is how clowns like the ones you mention end up on C-SPAN, because apparently, in your "community" Phil, everyone always maintains their Title, regardless of what they do.
"You guys are overdoing the elitest criticism on this."
-----------------------------
You say this because you generally agree with Phil. And so do I. People tend to let the piccadilloes of others go unnoticed when they are of like mind on other topics.
Not for nothin, but this thinly veiled anti jewish -combined with the veteran martyr complex- screed from citizen is deeply distasteful. you say you got drafted and went? congratu-fucking-lations. B.F.D. Time to get down from the cross.
Thanks Keith - you summed up my points perfectly. I might have gone to college, but Im as Blue Collar as one gets, and thats what informs my views.
"They're completely educated, they're just like us, AND SO you see what Jim Crow was like, or apartheid, the way they're treated."
(capitals as emphasis)
In other words, their mistreatment stands out because they're civilized. Sorry to point this out, but there it is.
You're right PA Belmont. I knew she meant well, couldnt resist - sometimes I think Phil throws stuff like that in there just to see if people pick up on it. Gotta keep him honest. BTW - That was Tom Engelhardt, not Juan Cole.
Cuz we all know, if you didnt go to Cornell or Oxford, you deserve whatever shitty treatment comes your way. Oh, to be "completely" educated.......
If barry lets this cat walk, i gotta think there will be some new "leaks" out of the "intelligence" community that will make him look terrible. almost makes it worth it.
Thanks Shmuel. I guess I am still looking for clarity regarding "their specific national aspirations" - I assume the government would be secular, as there are different religious affiliations among Palestinians. I agree with your views regarding what "we" can do, but people should be well informed on what they are actually supporting. Finkelstein has a point. I dont think there is anything wrong with outsiders saying their support is dependent on the goals of "the movement".
..."....and to focus on consciousness, education and the principles that will necessarily form the basis of any lasting solution. In terms of more immediate goals, there is the siege on Gaza, ongoing dispossession along the route of the separation wall and in the West Bank in general, the ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem, and other abuses of Palestinian human rights."
-------------
In other words, all we can do is bear witness. Im trying to see this going a different way, but from my outside perspective, it looks like Israel has a total hammer lock on the land "between the river and the sea," and we are fast approaching the hundred year mark for the state of israel. i just cant see any state or international body forcing israel to let palestinians en masse return 100 years after the fact. When the Israelis talk about facts on the ground, they arent just talking about the physical occupation of the land, they are also talking about "the clock" that gets re-set; every second occupied territory remains "jewish" the likelihood of it staying that way increases, after all, we are dealing with the ancient, uncontested "natives" of the land.
What does "Palestinian Arab State" mean? A state where Palestinian Arabs are the Israeli Jews? Im not sure I follow.
Nice catch!
Well, take a good look, identity politickers - this is the true expression of it all. The message is clear - the Israeli army, because it allows gay soldiers to serve openly, is a moral agent, after all, gay men would never act brutally or illegally right? As long as we afford certain identities a moral value, those identities will always be used to beat people over the head.
"I believe people want to marry Jews because we're successful (and we are overall the wealthiest group in the U.S. by religion). People want to get ahead, people want to get in with the in crowd. Of the moderators of the Republican debates this year, most were Jewish media guys."
Oy Ve!! Maybe the Biden girl loves the guy, ever thought of that? Its not likes hes a scientologist or something......
This lady has been bad news for a while - great reporting Phil!!
Woody -- Oops. For some reason I thought it was an excerpt from a speech, or maybe i convinced myself of that, because it was so poorly phrased. Ha. Either way, this guy Shmuely B. is a real hack who deserves no time at MW!!
But its the guy speaking it, woody. spoken english is always more vulgar. im really not trying to defend the guy here, well maybe i am in this instance, but i think he is saying - again, just my opinion- that his son is joining the effort to "defend an embattled democracy" (here) like his daughter has in Israel. Im just not sure that he is in fact saying by joining the US army, you are actually protecting Israel.
As for the US not being an embattled democracy, thats debatable - but its definitely true that most of US Foreign Policy the last hundred years or so was defended as necessary to protect democracy, or extend it. So, I would say, Boteach here is not really out of step in regarding the US as a country in constant peril. Whether it is or isnt is beside the point here, I happen to think Boteach is indeed describing the US as embattled, and his son is joining the "cause" to defend democracy (singular).....could be wrong, either way, if im wrong, hes prob 1 out of the millions who think that way, and we all know it
But there is nothing in what he says here that says he believes Israel's and America's interests are the same. Just that they are both democracies that have enemies. I disagree with his use of "democracy" to describe Israel, and to some extent, America, but nowhere does he say America and Israel are one and the same, or if you fight for Israel, you fight for America and vice versa.
Am I the only one who reads it as Boteach saying both his kids are endeavoring "to help an embattled democracy survive against brutal enemies" - one in Israel, one in the US? Thats how I read it. Anyone?
I dont think hes saying it that way Phil, I think he is saying Israel and America are embattled democracies, and that his kids are protecting each, respectively.
might have been me regarding Jacquelyn Rose - question of zion was a tremendous book, one of my favorite early reads on zionism.
I thought the Goldberg joke was actually pretty funny. I also think the description of Beinart is pretty accurate; every time I see the guy on TV he takes 500 words to make one point, constantly interrupts others, and is totally unwilling to listen or talk to any non-jews on this topic. Thats the description of a hack, if you're rootin' for this guy to be a "leader," WOW. Have fun with that.
That aside, MondoBeinart (open weiss, maybe?) is doing fine work cataloging the every exchange between the pillars of The American Jewish Elite. This just in, Petey Beinart had eggs over easy and turkey bacon (so he says) for breakfast. Abe Foxman is drafting a statement in response.
Because we all know how much people love those who tell them what they can and cannot say. No resentment whatsoever. Sure.
I was gonna comment, but Seafoid and marc b. have said it all. cheers.
I hear ya Seafoid - and I would like to fully agree, but I think the fact that the economies of the region are rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things - including israel- makes it more likely that nothing will get done. And Israel might start looking like a good bet for Russia and other large economies, as the other states in the region begin to come apart. Whatever else is true about Israel - its politically stable, has nukes and a top 5 military (by size and scope). The Zionists chose really well, they picked the perfect neighborhood to bully.
the settlers are going to do something awful and as a result Israel will lose the goys . Not even the shoah will work as an excuse once that happens.
--------
What if it doesnt matter anymore, Seafoid? What if Israel is beyond sanction? I think that it might be. Not only because of its unique qualities, but because of the current reality in the "goy" countries (which is really just code for europe and the US). There isnt the political will or the resources to do anything about the situation; if Israel via the settlers, or the settlers did do something awful, what state can do anything about it? Kahane was right. The world is going to take it on the chin. War is breaking out all around them, the conditions are becoming ideal for some very dastardly deeds, because as we all know, everything takes a back seat to 'national security.' If Israeli National Security becomes dependent on transferring non jews, I suppose they will do it, and I also think the elites around the world will get over it really fast. Bibi and Co. are well aware of this, they know they can get away with it.
Keith-- HAHAHA!!!!!
Awesome.
Cheers to you as well, Hostage.
This post from Hostage gets my vote for all-time Mondoweiss Comment.
haha, i knew libra was gonna come callin' -- no worries, i was more talking about my lobby related comments, not the entirety, but you're probably right in any event.
My view of the subject is really simple - the NY Yankees have had some good owners, some bad owners, some good managers, some bad managers - but the goals are always shared, they want to dominate baseball. And just like with becoming the owner of the yankees or one of their managers, you first have to buy in to "the yankee mystique" - I think US foreign policy is quite similar as it regards its stewards.
The neo-cons certainly represent the "bad managers," but the fact of the matter is, they passed through all of the filters, their views are shared and given sanction by ownership. If we, as fans, want different management, we can not go to games, not watch on TV - but if you are going to bitch about management, but then go to games, watch on TV, buy merchandise and so on, you're only going to drive yourself crazy, and ownership and management are gonna know they have you in their pocket and wont take you seriously. Cubs fans can attest to this. And I think the same is true of most "progressives" they know a thing or two about not being taken seriously - and I think its largely because at root, they too buy into "the yankee mystique" (american exceptionalism) only they have their own arbitrary definition of what that means to them.
The neo-cons will do anything to win, and they've proved it - this is a language americans understand and appreciate, so long as they buy into the mystique. It becomes a question of who really means it, and with the neo-cons you can tell they really mean it, unlike with most management level progressives, who pay lip service to the mystique, but dont engender a lot of confidence in the fans.
So, my point is, if you are going to talk in the language of nationalist sports fandom-- "Our Government has been taken over by Zionists"/ "My team is being run into the ground" -- you should realize the game being played. If winning at all costs isnt for you, dont be a yankee fan, and if american dominance isnt for you, stop talking about the goverment like its "yours."
haha. Not a complete summary, but as it regards this topic, this is more or less how I feel. But you already knew that.... All For One and One for All!!
I feel like Richard Congress went into my comment archive and wrote this as a summary!! haha. THANK YOU RICHARD!! Very well done.
Semper Fidelis,
Dan
there ya go tommy
"But would we do any differently? Yes: we would have done more. We would have guerrillas up in the hills, we would have international resistance support. We would be blowing people up right and left."
-- Are you speaking for Jews here, Phil; Americans, both? I completely agree, but was just wondering.
A Fmr Israeli Gen. Matti Peled once said he too hates terrorism, but when you are occupied by a powerful military force, you gotta do what you gotta do. I think his son Miko has been written about here.....(probably by annie, too lazy to check)
theres actually a pretty good scene in the movie "W" where the top brass are in the 'situation room' - funny how thats the title of a "news" show, eh?- and Rove, aka turd blossom is there, saying their plans for Iraq are really all about re-election. Colin Powell (in the movie) asks just what the hell Rove is doing there. It was a really dark scene.
Axelrod being there doesnt bother me, I expect sht like that - what bothers me is the blatant hypocrisy from Obama supporters ( I include Weiss here as well, for sure, sorry Phil) - this guy is doing things a Republican president could only dream of, and with hardly a peep from the people who were so "outraged" over comparatively minor things like illegal wiretapping and water boarding - Obama has cats summarily executed DAILY and no one says sht. With a "left" like this, who needs a right? Division? Nah.
Woody - my comments were never to say that people who served should be lionized, far from it. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by Keith and yourself regarding the nature of the state in its foreign policy. But I also agree with this:
"......we all make mistakes when we are too young to know any better. And given our media diet, how on earth could any young man have an objective view of military service? And the desire for approval is almost overwhelming in the young male, and we are very easily manipulated by it. You aren’t the only one."
- Mooser
The point I was getting at all along was to say, the sentiment in moosers statement here is not necessarily shared among those on "the left". There is a general excommunicatory (?) nature on the left of the credentialed classes - Which I Who I Am Referring To When I say "Left" - Mooser here seems more aware of the material reality in which a decision, one you think is completely free choice, to enlist is made.
Mooser, to answer your question - I would say, in this day and age, without a real left, a socialist left - the best way to describe our current left is by calling it the "tolerance" movement. In that it doesnt seek to really change anything about the antagonisms in the system, it just seeks to gloss over them, by being more 'inclusive' to the abstract social constructs we keep creating for ourselves, and at the same time helps us become more "tolerant" of our shittier and shittier collective existence. But this model in particular is very INTOLERANT to any display of what it considers brutish behavior - an ever changing goal post for sure - because Alpha Male behavior is bad for the overall Level of Tolerance. And so, when someone is outed as a Brute or a former Brute, the intolerance of the tolerant takes over.
Or at least thats what Ive noticed, having been a Marine, and having been "outed" as such in all sorts of company. I cant tell you how many times Ive heard, after having a conversation with someone on a random intellectual topic, "wow, im shocked you know something about this, I thought you jarheads were just a bunch of......" and so on. This was about why the left lacks a real anti-war message, and I think part of the answer is its an all volunteer military, "they chose to do it" and think the other part is that a sense of "well, they're just a bunch of...." has taken hold on the "Tolerant" side.
Again, the post was about the Establishment Left aka The Tolerance Movement - I was not referring to everyday americans whose sympathies lie with traditional left liberal values.
im glad that woody commented on this thread - i started out by saying that "the left" hates military folks more than they hate war, and boy-o-boy did he confirm it.
and of course, "military folks" are generally people who joined to better their lives, learn a trade and so on - so to me, those who have such disdain for people in the military, really just hate those who would be in a position to join it.
and that is why there is no anti-war left - the left hates the smell of the working class and the poor more than they hate the wars those same working class and poor go and fight.
And just like that, Woody proves my point. Cheers.
I wouldnt say there is a "strong" left of any kind, but thats just me.
As for liberal institutions and their stances regarding war and such - I think its as much about class and wealth as it is about the draft. Im sure this will get me bashed, but among "the left" there is an overwhelming level of condescension and general disdain for the military and the people who would join it. In our society, where going to college and so on are generally accepted by all as "the thing to do" - by joining the military, in some peoples eyes, you've given up, or had to join because you lacked what it takes to succeed in civilian society; this has a way of "otherizing" the military, especially among "the left" - who all apparently, went to Harvard and shit.
*If I have to remind Citizen again that I am a former Marine, Im gonna flip out*
Liberal institutions are busy doing other things, like discussing queer theory in pets, and trying to save the kids at Harvard a couple bucks on their student loan interest- you didnt get the memo, Phil? And besides Phil, West Point is full of strapping young people, people who are smart and broad-shouldered AND competitive, both physically AND mentally, and identify only with a catch all like 'cadet' - this is a direct threat to the current "left." So, better to distance yourself from people like this. I guess what Im saying is, I think "the left" hates folks like those at west point slightly more than they hate war.
I'll say it: If you need to isolate kids in order to "save" YOUR identity (these kids dont get a choice, i assume, on any of these matters) - Your identity isn't worth saving. Full Stop.
thats fine, woody - if thats your opinion, but israeli goods with no labeling are sold all across the US right now. and like shmuel says, there is no good argument against it from the israeli side - its a win all the way around.
Pro/Anti BDS "arguments" are becoming a real cottage industry.
I like the approach of the countries that did the campaigns for labeling where sht was made, israel proper or settlements. that seems like such a no brainer to me, i have no idea why you cant rally support behind a simple slogan of " we want to make sure consumers know that these products are made in illegal settlements etc etc etc"
You got to talk to Shir Hever, Phil. He makes the pro-bds case, and without comparing people to 19th century american white southerners.. :)
This goes right to the heart of all arguments about the “Jewish Community”. Apparently the “Jewish Community” is not actually of Jewish construction, it is a condition imposed on Jews. And now Zionists are telling us that this (a Jewish Community dealing with outsiders through intermediaries, “Jewish leaders”) is the natural state for us. No, it was imposed on us as a product of legal and societal anti-Semitism (in the classic anti-Jewish sense.)
Ask yourself: if Jews were so eager to live a socially and intellectually (not to mention religiously, economically and the rest) separated life, why did Gentiles have to make laws to get them to do so, and keep them in that place by oppression and legal discrimination?
- Mooser
I Think this is the point Ive been trying to make for all my time here, what a brilliant comment by Mooser.
They love Feltman in the ME:
link to intifada-palestine.com
Cheers Peter - but here's the thing, in your response, you detail how irrational, immoral and arbitrary religion is - I thought that was my point. :)
I only took umbrage with the self congratulatory declarations about rationality and morality - I dont find much rationality or morality in the holy books or in the practical application of religion.
I agree its not necessary to be a troglodyte to be religious - and I think a large part of it is the abstractions you mention - the new interpretations over time etc. I am reminded of the famous quote from Lee Atwater (the southern strategy guy) - who said (horrible paraphrase of actual)
" In 1956 you can say the N word N word N word to get out the vote etc, but by '60 you cant, you gotta say states rights, and by 68 they know states right means the N word, and you gotta say "forced busing" or something and you keep abstracting away from saying the N word, but thats what its really all about"
And so it is with religion. People now a days, because so much has been done to "soften" religion in order to keep people interested, actually believe the abstractions. So the jealous god who is vengeful and watches over you, waiting for you to screw up so he can pounce becomes the god of evangelical mega church rock shows. Talk about a brave new world.
Even though I have no idea what "anti-religious Jew" or "Jewish tradition of rationality and morality" mean, I guess Slater is to be credited for his stance here.
Is it "anti-semitic" to mention that "The Jewish Tradition" began thousands of years ago, and is based on an invisible, omnipotent Man in the Sky? Is that a rational idea?
Or how about the Book which began the Jewish Tradition; it sanctions wholesale slaughter of "others," slavery, animal sacrifice etc - is this moral? Joshua at Jericho was moral? Whatever else is true, its certainly part of the Jewish Tradition of Morality, if we arent being arbitrary and deciding which parts of what religion we like for ourselves.
The fact of the matter is, NO ONE can say, as a Jew I object to Israel's policies - nor can a Christian nor can a Muslim. These religions didnt start yesterday, or during the Summer of Love - nope, they began THOUSANDS of years ago. So, when Slater says that his bronze age identity and the modern state that is based on the same betrays the enlightenment tradition - I say, No Shit. It was always going to be Israelistan.
Sometime soon, when Baruch Marzel and Co. have built the Third Temple and have started animal sacrifices, we should revisit this, and we will see if the exilic Phil and Jerry want to still self identify with a group of people who pay homage to their sky god by slitting animals throats.
why would the iranians already have nuclear weapons if the revolution of 1979 didnt happen? BECAUSE THE US SOLD/BUILT A NUCLEAR REACTOR FOR THE SHAH. Its still in use. Weird that Miller doesnt mention this.....or maybe not
The name of the program that built reactors in Iran and Pakistan, you ask? ATOMS FOR PEACE.
You couldnt make this shit up.
What do you think "without pre-conditions" means? It means we (the west, more specifically the US) have the right to destroy your economy, kill your people but you cant bring that up in the negotiations - as in, "yes, we will agree to talk, but first, please stop killing our people" - That constitutes a pre-condition, so does asking for sanction relief. This is all a mindless charade designed to gain support for war over time. Apparently its working. Obama sold these sanctions to the West, they agreed, and the House of Saud and Jordan were thrilled the West agreed - there are a lot of moving parts here, and not all of them are connected to Tel Aviv.
Seriously Phil, a state department website designed to talk to the Iranian people is a voice of moderation? WOW. Voice of state propaganda perhaps, but certainly not moderation. "WE MEAN YOU NO HARM, BIG BROTHER LOVES YOU" - is that about right?
The only way you could have thought this wasnt going to happen, is if you believed the mind reading of Gareth Porter and some others - the "obama seems reluctant; obama wants to stave off war" crowd - what a crock of shit.
That statement from the ADL reads EXACTLY like the statements from the Kohl government in Germany after re-unification in the 90's, in which he blames the immigrants for the pogroms that attacked them. "Auslander Raus" eh, Abe?
The ADL is repugnant.
"Those who have worked with Mattis say his views when it comes to Iran are more in line with those of America’s allies in the Persian Gulf and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu than with his own government’s."
-------------------------------------
Rubbish. This guy has made it through every filter, to say his views are not aligned with the washington consensus is absurd - if anything he is just more vocal and vulgar. I love it how here at MW, and it seems elsewhere, even if you are wearing the uniform on the US, and are a general in its military -as soon as you spout "neo-con" views, you are at once a de-facto agent of israel or saudi arabia etc, you cease to be a functionary of the US government - what an unbelievable mechanism to re-direct guilt for US policy. This is part of my criticism of a lot of lobby arguments - most of "the lobby" is in OFFICIAL positions of power, their decisions are OFFICIAL policy, yet we talk about the lobby as a foreign entity, this doesnt make any sense to me. Take some responsibility for who you elect and the people those you elect appoint.
Finkelstein and Rabbani made a good tag team on that clown....I saw F&R speak this past winter and found Rabbani to be a real force - sort of like Hever, in my opinion. his arguments are dispassionate and sober, he just tells it like it is......
Im not buying these "defections" are a result of "The Lobby" - Ford and Booker are the whoriest[sic] of the whores, they have gold plated connections with all the nefarious actors among the ruling classes.
american - i was asked a direct question about what other issue aside from I/P has the same potential for backlash to the US and humanity - I said the US elites stance on Climate change. Im not conflating anything or jumping or sprinboarding around - I was responding to a question.
No worries Sean.
Just once more for the record - this post, and my original comment were not about the lobby. What I was saying to Phil was, you will never be able to convince the upper crust (like these cats) - BECAUSE they are perfectly happy to have the same kind of inequality that exists among americans, exist among jewish israelis. Personally, I think the idea of jews being poor and brutish kind of turns Bill Kristol on - my point was to say, Phil might do well to take his project, as he calls it, to yes, places like the Deli on Long Island - where he can say to the Tribalists Without Resources, "This occupation you support so much is making your fellow Jews live under worse and worse conditions, and is causing some to leave the country"
Guys like Kristol will hear this and wont be bothered - hes never been interested in anyone elses standard of living, and he loathes social justice - but I think Phil can be productive among non-elite jews, jews who actually have to live among regular people; they are probably feeling the pinch of the plutocrats as well; Bill Kristol and is ilk would be perfectly happy to just hire gunmen and build walls around their mansions if it came to it in the US, and again, im sure he dreams of the day he has to have armed guards with him in israel, thats so third world tough guy-ish.
My personal view is that Phil is sort of wasting his time at these things anyway - whatever is going to happen to Israel and Palestine, american jews, and probably world jewry in general will not be on the side of justice, thats just what I think. I am not a lobby denier, quite the opposite - but I do think there is a tremendous amount of navel gazing that takes place around this issue - and some of the journalism about the lobby falls into that category. And I think here at MW, lobby related posts and other identity based posts have overtaken what I thought was the original intent of the blog - "the war of ideas in the middle east" - I understand its from chiefly a jewish perspective, whatever that means, but I feel sometimes MW is still in the "proving it" phase - as if there is any serious argument about whether or not the israel lobby has undo sway. all the analysts i read take it for granted, and so do i. i keep coming back to "self evident" and thats really I how I try and view the world - if something is obviously true, move along - its better to work on something new, rather than focusing on established facts. Just my opinion.
Sean,
You bash away at me on threads regarding "the lobby" and "Likud Zionists" like Kristol here, saying I cant write- but just the other day you were in full agreement with me:
seanmcbride says:
May 14, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Dan Crowther,
You nailed it. Barack Obama has been a more effective and sinister neocon tool than George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Most Democrats don’t have a clue.
But despite all that, I will be forced to vote for him in November over Mitt Romney. Damn. We’ve been completely backed into a no-win corner by Likud Zionists in American politics.
link to mondoweiss.net
So, Im an illiterate idiot when I stake out a different POV - but when we agree, I "nail" it. Hmmmm.... My post above had NOTHING to do with the lobby - you guys always say Im an apologist, chomskyite or whatever - nothing could be further from the truth, I am largely in agreement with you all regarding the lobby. I just happen to think, in this case (phils post on ben-ami and kristol) phil is wasting his time with the elite israel firsters, for the reasons i state above. if hes gonna spend his time in the jewish only community, I think he would be better served spending it with non elite types, who arent dependent on the status quo for their position in life, I dont understand how thats such a controversial idea.
As for everything else - until I get acknowledgement on some of the accusations made against me here being incorrect, im not going to continue - Ive been labeled a quasi trust funder who hasnt had a regular experience in america and a host of other things, its all bullshit. I am a former Marine who put himself (along with uncle sam) through college, I live and work in a "Big City" - my values and beliefs are based on the same working class values and beliefs my parents hold, and their parents held. But I dont think that "my country" is being taken away from me, like a lot of older white people (some here) seem to think - I dont believe that US foreign policy is based solely on the positions of "Jewish Ethnic Nationalists" - or other nefarious cabals. And if I did, I would focus on what they advocate, rather than who they are. The US will be bombing another country, and you all will discussing what jewish actors were involved in the plot, thats just not that interesting to me, it used to be, but not so much anymore.
One last thing: ARMY stands for Aren't Ready (to be) Marines Yet.
OOORAH!!
"what “horrors around the world” do ivy league spawn in government champion that are equal in negative blowback to USA & humanity generally than Israel First?
--------------------------------------------
Is this a serious question?
Our (US) population believes global warming and climate change are a problem - our elites dont, as evidenced by their actions - I would say they are somewhat alone among world elites (at least in the developed world) -- in their collective "denial" -- and it could cause the extinction of the species. So, thats pretty significant. Just one example.
I would also go into the economic policies championed by these elites, and other non ME dictatorships and tyrannies these elites support (and educate at the same institutions they go to) but that would just get me shouted down as a Chomskyite loser or whatever.............
My dad worked for the railroad, like his father and brothers, and my mother was a nurse, the daugher of an electrician -- i am the first crowther male to finish college.
No, I wasnt drafted, I enlisted in the Marines - went to boot camp in oct. 2001 - u can do the math.
I grew up in a college town that was half ex urbanites and half appalachia, with a large gay population. I got a basketball/baseball scholarship to a prep school, where i met the upper crust for the first time - i didnt like them all that much.
when you grew up, there were a lot less people who had gone to college across the board - again, its more than possible to be "working class" while having gone to college in this day and age.
Semper Fidelis,
Dan
I really want to be able to give American and McBride credit for being able to read English - but its becoming hard to do so.
I realize there is "financial elitism and then there are Israel firsters" My point was to say people like Kristol and Co. who fall into BOTH categories should be taken with a grain of salt and that Phil would do well to spend more time with people who dont have both tribal sympathies for israel and a want/ financial interest in israel being a right wing country - like Kristol.
As for Mcbrides comments - I am still not sure what the Chomsky obsession is about, I feel like I have a pretty good handle on the lobby - I dont want to get into a protracted debate about it - my general thought is its a symptom, rather than cause, of the problem. And the same I think is true of Kristol, Ben Ami and Co. The guys phil mindlessly bestows leadership status to. Whatever else is true about them, they come from money, had exclusive upbringings and educations and benefitted from being "in the club" - people who are "in the club" hold all sorts of repugnant views and face no sanction for them, across the board. kristol is jewish, so he holds repugnant views regarding israel, but hes no different from his collegiate school/harvard buddies who champion all sorts of other horrors around the world. I very much consider our problems -really across the board- to be the " work of our "leaders" and "elites" - and I think phil is wrong to feel bad that he cant change their minds
You want my GPS coordinates?? haha
Yeah, Im an American, I live in Boston. Im from a college town in western mass originally. Me and you have been down this road before, where you try and out American me, on a Ron Paul thread you said I could never hold my views if I ever actually lived among ethnic and racial minorities, that stereotypes exist for good reasons etc then I told you I live in Roxbury.
I grew up in a white collar working class jewish community - most of my friends parents were social workers, local store owners, tax attorneys and psychiatrists -- not blue collar, but not "elite." My point is that Phil is making his case to people with not only ethnic or religious solidarity reasons for supporting israel - but also a financial/political reasoning for supporting israel as it is. And he is criticizing the "jewish community" as a whole, when he spends all his time (or a whole lot of it) with the upper crust.
Im in my late twenties, so I think I have a different perspective - the jewish kids I grew up with, and their families (and maybe my experience is unique, who knows) dont view their jewish identity as important as their grandparents do. dont be a cranky old fart. :)
Why do you despair [for] the jewish community, just because Bill Kristol is an asshole?
Sht man, if every "community" had to account for its assholes, we'd be in much worse shape than we're already in.
I'll tell you what community you should be in despair over - The Trust Fund Baby, Collegiate School, Harvard University community - thats what community cats like Kristol really belong to.
For all he does to defend Israel, hes certainly not calling for a better welfare state there, he isnt running around talking about social justice issues; no, hes defending Neo-liberal Israel, state capitalist Israel - this guy doesnt care about the health and living conditions of jews in Israel, he only cares about the rights of the ruling class there, same as here in the US. If you want to say these guys (ben-ami and kristol) are indicative of the "jewish community" with out any qualifying statements, thats your right to do so, but in my opinion, it reveals a sort of authoritarianism and elitism on your part. If every "community" had its conventional wisdom dictated by trust funders speaking to passive audiences, again, we would be in much worse shape than we're already in. You need to find yourself some working class jews phil - they're out there, I promise.
That kid got shot by the settler who knelt down and sighted in with his pistol..... wow, and right in front of the "soldiers" -- this is unreal.
Ive never seen a German emote like Merkel here in this picture....... :)
This proactive approach should help calm nerves in the region about Obama’s mettle, and could forestall Israel from taking matters into its own hands.
------------------------------------------
These are the "Pro's" according to these dickheads. Obama gets to look tough, and we (the US) get to save Israeli lives - lives that would only be in jeopardy due to the actions of Israel's supremely assholic government.
I shouldnt even comment on posts like this - every time I read drivel like this latest from Koenig and Fly, I want to make the short walk over to the Kennedy School and smack some future key board warriors around.... How about that for a "pre-emptive strike?"
Not a single one of them mentioned Obama's reported dislike for Bibi - and vice versa. Which leads me to believe that this is where the dip the in poll numbers comes from - if the Israeli PM doesnt like you, neither do we - lets not forget how much of this anybody-but-obama propaganda gets its sign off from GOI. These people think what they are told to think, they'll change when the propaganda changes.
I dont know if O survives - it is sure to be a unbelievably vicious campaign, and we all know the right does vicious a whole lot better; they are "fired up.....ready to go!" And heres the kicker - Occupy didnt start on Bush's watch, it started three years into Obama's term, thats gold for the right. Say what you want about the Republicans craziness, the loons in the tea party, etc etc., they dont need you to vote for them, they just need to deflate the opposing candidate, the lower the turn out the better. I see every opportunity for that method to work against Obama.
great post
If you take a look at the list of non-NATO countries the US government has gone "above and beyond" for - it's a real indictment of Israel. From Suharto to Saddam - if your government is relying on American largesse for its political survival, you are living in a military dictatorship. I often wonder why this doesnt get remarked on more.
Maybe because some dont want to think it was always going to be this way - perhaps its better to think somewhere along the line things changed.
They're really pulling out all the stops - Obama is something else. I wonder if there will be retroactive immunity for the groups american shills. Obama shielding Fran Townsend and co. from prosecution for material support for terrorism would be oh so perfect, that would really say it all.
I dont know that this increases the likelihood for war between the US and Iran directly, but it definitely greenlights an overt fight among the big powers for a iranian host, the west has decided it wants to destroy iranian society and remove the current government, if that can be done with iranians killing iranians, i suppose thats what the west prefers.
cheers phil - i look forward to reading this
What's really funny is that this is how Obama wants this relationship portrayed, perhaps not this gratuitously, but politically he has to be seen as "taking it" from Bibi - at least thats why I laughed
so im a hasbaraist now? hahaha.... thats awesome.
i was just pointing out that (I personally think) the US doesnt want independent, secular nationalism in this resource rich region - and israel "helps" in that effort - i am very far from supporting the US position, just pointing out what is a pretty obvious fact
You left out secular arab nationalism; there isnt much in the way of that surrounding israel, I have to think thats the way the US likes it
I make the distinction - but Im not so sure most do. And yes, there have been a lot of times I've heard "neocons" be used as a substitute for "jews" - and I think its kind of understood that way. Its not just me.
I think Phil wittingly or unwittingly is making sort of an eliminationist argument - he can say he wants to rehabilitate his community or whatever, but when one writes daily about a certain group of people who are hellbent on war and seemingly hellbent on destroying the US, a sense of "man, we need to rid ourselves of these people" takes over in the reader. Phil says it bothers him when he learns of anti-semites and racists citing him, well, I am just pointing out to him, that this is indeed an instance where he -in my opinion- is overemphasizing something (the role of the neocons/right wing jews) to the probable delight of those same bigots.
Im just not an identity politics guy - I think we would all do well to shut the F up about our respective political identities and work in concert, not as jews, christians, whites, blacks and so on, but as people. i dont care that the neocons are jewish - they want war and I am against it. full stop. too many times we get tied up in discussing the abstract - 9/11 being a perfect example. People said "it was an inside job, because they want to start a war" - OK, but at that point the "who" (as in who did it?) should have been the least important thing to those who wanted to stop the war(s). Because no matter "who" committed the attacks, the plans for war were being made. For me, the background of the neocons is an abstraction in much the same way.
Phil you got a hard on so big for members of the tribe you disagree with (rightfully so) Im not sure you can be objective here. Even walt and mearsheimer dont claim that the neo-cons were the chief reason behind the war - they were a key part, but their views had to align with other sects within the society and the government, and they did.
This is not to say that maddow and berman arent full of it - they are. but to lay the war in iraq at the feet of "the jews" (which is what i think is really being said when "neocons" is uttered) is to me, pretty unfair and distasteful. To take these arguments to their logical conclusions is to kick jews out of the US (or worse). After all, I pledged to defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic - surely people who get the US into bloody wars on behalf of another country (and an abstract political identity) are "enemies" - yes? Is this really what you're saying? Sometimes it seems so.
Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
- Rick James
I dont know that obama sees a benefit in bombing iran (right now) - but I do think Obama sees a benefit in a neutered Iran, and if he thinks threatening all out war and crippling the country through sanctions will help in creating the conditions for regime change, thats what hes gonna do. and if he thinks bombing iran will lead to regime change, i suppose thats what hes gonna do - but that isnt feasible as of now, because, as i said, the country hasnt been ruined yet - there is still a functioning society.
i think we are closer to the beginning here, rather than the end. iranian society has not yet been destroyed, and uncle sam usually makes sure to do that before any military action takes place. all these resolutions are just part of the background, the as it were foundation for future military actions.
lets not be naive and think that Barry and the O's DONT want israel and the lobby doing exactly what they are doing - barry wants to be seen as the guy holding the leash on these crazies, that gives his positions in negotiations all the more credibility.
Of course, now that Barry and the O's support gay marriage, he can pretty much do what he wants, Im half expecting the Maddow's of the world to come out and give full throated support to O's foreign policy in its entirety.
Who gives hand-jobs? Matt definitely had a right to be "deeply offended" - guy goes all the way to the Middle East and all he gets is a "handy"?? Sheeee--ittt!!
My new tee-shirt Idea: I went to a Orgy in the Desert and all I got was this lousy tee-shirt and a handjob from some hipster chick
the back would read: It was Birthright, not BurningMan
@DC: sold them long range fighter jets, as well as re-fueling tanker aircraft
Could you source this, please.
---------------------------------------
link to haaretz.com
WASHINGTON - Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu requested the United States approve the sale of advanced refueling aircraft as well as GBU-28 bunker-piercing bombs to Israel during a recent meeting with Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, a top U.S. official said on Tuesday.
The American official said that U.S. President Barack Obama instructed Panetta to work directly with Defense Minister Ehud Barak on the matter, indicating that the U.S. administration was inclined to look favorably upon the request as soon as possible.
March 6 2012
-------------------------------
2010
link to haaretz.com
"Defense Minister Ehud Barak approved the purchase of 20 F-35 fighter planes for the Israel Air Force on Sunday. "
Those come on line in 2015, and they are going to be buying a lot more - theyve already added to their initial buy-
---------------------------------------------------
As for everthing else - there is plenty of stuff out there about obama's clandestine wars all over the middle east and north/east africa - my point wasnt to say hes a neocon - my point was to say, whatever we want to label him, or think of him as, he is not a guy anyone should be projecting things upon - "seems" and barack obama should never appear in the same sentence. He "seemed" to favor single payer, and then the public option - he "seemed" to want to close guantanamo and reinstate the rule of law and so on.
The only thing I take umbrage with here is the line:
The Obama administration, despite rhetorical hedging, seems to recognize that war is neither necessary nor wise.
I'm getting pretty tired of the mind reading. "seems" is a word Walt would do well to forget. Ronald Reagan "seemed" like a nice guy. Obama "seems" like a nice guy. The former killed nuns and priests, the latter kills US citizens with no due process. I cant take anymore of this "the obama adminstration doesnt want war" nonsense. Its utter nonsense.
Enough with the mind reading - lets look at the facts. (1) Iran is completely surrounded by the US military, thanks in part to Obama (2) Obama has sent additional troops, aircraft carrier groups to the Gulf in the last year (3) Obama has increased all sorts of clandestine operations in and around Iran (we know this, because drones and people have been caught) (4) The US has been building hospitals and other facilities in Georgia, in Azerbaijian and sent hundreds of bunker busters to Diego Garcia (5) Obama has sold the same bunker busters to Israel, sold new missile defense technology to Israel and sold them long range fighter jets, as well as re-fueling tanker aircraft, while the Israeli government shouts from the mountaintops that it wants Iran destroyed, and may attack on its own. (6) Obama has greatly expanded W's wars - Libya, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia - now onto Syria and perhaps Lebanon or maybe Nigeria? (7) Obama has propped up the (sunni) Gulf Monarchies, and made them full members of the Anti-Iran, Anti-Syria coalition, while selling them new fighter jets and tanks (8) Egypt. the obama administrations actions toward post Mubarak Egypt speak for themselves (9) Obama has already succeeded in selling the harsh, brutal sanctions on Iran to the Europeans and has moved China and Russia in the same direction (10) maybe most importantly, barry has been able to almost completely castrate any domestic opposition by making himself out to be the "reluctant warrior" through leaks, sympathetic journalists and a general - though totally undeserved- perception that democrats favor peace.
Barry was sold as "The Competent Manager" - the anti-W. Well, this is what competent management of empire looks like, Obama is getting his ducks in a row, so he can tell the world and the kool-aid drinkers at home that "he tried his best for a peacful resolution" He isnt trying to stop war, hes preparing the noose. and if we paid attention to his ACTIONS rather than the mind reading of the steve walts and gareth porters of the world, all this would be self evident
Tokyo Benny back in the Heezy....... for those keeping score, Benny's latest posts have been dedicated to defending the honor of Shmully The Racist and Abe The Fox-Man; Witty would be proud.
When I think of "brave" I dont generally think of well-heeled people "opening up" in front of other well-heeled people who share their same views - it was a J street conference, yes? Isnt that the biggest problem of all, people saying one thing in one setting, and something different in another? Where has she been? O-P-P-O-R-T-U-N-I-S-T. The one thing I will give her credit for is not mentioning anti-semitism, so I guess thats progress
I've heard plenty of american women recount similar stories of "clubbing" and "finding love etc" when discussing their vacations in the Caribbean (eddie murphy has a GREAT bit about this as well; see Raw, his standup special) - how is this any different? Is this the new "liberal" zionist rallying cry?: "Save Israel because american jewish women are more attracted to their tanned, fit and heavily accented co-religionists from Israel"?
At the end of the day, this is just more talk about future talks "within the jewish community" - american jewish so called activists are like Treebeard and co. in the Lord of The Rings - where they (the trees) meet to talk about what they are going to talk about and how they will eventually talk about it, but only amongst themselves. As if the cure to Tribalism is more Tribalism. Brave, indeed.
I dont think its just the Neocons who feel this way - but for as much as I worry the Israelis might do something crazy (attacking Iran), I feel like this is about the "next phase" in the "zionist project" which means full on expulsions etc. of non-jews from Israel.
"6) Bibi wants to be able to say to President Obama: More than three-quarters of the Knesset is with me. I am Israel. (and we are annexing what we want)"
If and when this happens (the final "cleansing"), the reaction in the states, and on this blog will be of great interest to me. I am bracing myself to be absolutely disgusted. But maybe some good will come out of it - maybe at that point the vulgar apologists and Holocaust Industrialists will finally be shouted down and shunned, maybe at that point, wealthy white americans who happen to be jewish will feel a sense of shame identifying as victims in perpetuity and maybe at that point we can finally move past identity politics, where "what I think" is somehow a by product of "what I am"