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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Donald, are you coming out as a "humanitarian interventionist"? what atrocious acts has Assad's government done other than to fight the nato/israel/Saudi Arabia/Qatar supported jihadists? do you realize that the indigenous ARMED Syrian opposition - what little there was of it that was unpaid - has all but collapsed once people came to realize who exactly is behind the attempt to bring Syria down through a faux-sectarian "civil war"? can anyone remotely imagine that the actual people of Syria (as opposed to those badly discredited Syrian "exile' groups who have zero support on the ground) will not see through an obvious ploy to break up their country and bring untold chaos and misery to its citizens? Every town and village where the so-called 'rebels" (cf. various islamist extremists, local and foreign) took over has turned against them, which is why the Syrian army found it relatively easy to recapture them. When the population is not with you, well, it gets a bit difficult to hide, doesn't it?
Yes, saudi Arabia and Qatar - those bastions of democracy - seem to have a ready supply of cannon fodder. But do you know of any humanitarian way that a country can fight against invaders other than by killing them?
An aside: one cannot believe much of what comes out of that Syrian observatory group in London regarding casualty figures. The final word on actual victims and who they consisted of is not in yet. When the dust settles, I kind of doubt it will be possible to lay even a majority of the casualties at the government's feet.
MRW, so it takes both apples and oranges to make a really fine fruit salad.
Thanks for the clear explanation of the vacuum operation. And I'm glad you added Amdocs.
I wish someone provided a lay out of where all the tentacles of the panopticon are, and how they add up to the monstrous octopus.
ToivoS, I saw that hatchet job by Josh Marshall. Definitely does Versailles proud. I do however recall that Josh is just one of the many in the journalists/reporters in the MSM stable that glenn Greenwald took to task in the past, for just this type of cowering, surveillance state boot licking pretend-leftism.
Naturally the smearing of Glenn Greenwald has been going on right on par with the freaking out over Snowden on MSM's pages of drivel. I believe Richard Cohen of the NYT referred to him as "vainglorious". David brooks had one of his articles that's just dripping with indignation as he spreads mis-cues generously of the kind that only a true wounded neoliberal corporatist can do. I expect the tone and letter of the attacks on both Snowden and Greenwald to hit fever pitch in the coming days.
shachalnur - funny, I read that Jon Rappoport piece. He asks valid questions. none detracts from what Snowden did but I tend to agree that somewhere, way way behind the scene there may have been a few more helpful strings being pulled.
Here is one thought that came to my mind - Medea Benjamin's disruption of Obama's speech and the way it played out on prime time - in a way that seemed almost welcome. Someone invited her to that rather closed gathering (she said as much). Somehow security did not immediately usher her out and let her go for quite a while; somehow, Obama seemed to welcome her questions. Was Medea - an acknowledged rebel of the left, a known and capable critique of the drones program, somehow used to burnish Obama's faded credentials with the left?
Another thought - the administration must be full of democrats - including many die-hard and/or idealistic ones - some lowlier than others - who must be seething as much as we all do at the sight of the excesses of power. One wonders what an individual, overcome with a sense of righteousness, in a sensitive position, may do to sort of force things into the open.
Again, none of these musings are intended to undermine the least bit the enormous courage displayed by people such as Snowden (and, of course, Benjamin). it just wouldn't surprise me if there were more individuals, deeply embedded within the administration, who share the people's sense of outrage and are in a position to offer a little helping hand, without ever having to come out into the open.
My other thought BTW was the idealist Stasi spy from "The Lives of others". He was a simple man, a believer in the ideals of the state, who found in himself an uncommon courage to stand up for the rights of others - at a huge consequence to himself. Yet, as the movie tells it, not once did the playwriter who benefited from the secret protection know who or how much he was protected.
ckg - don't forget Palantir - it may not be an Israeli start-up per se but the CEO and key people are from the same Uniot 8200. What Palantir does is even more worrisome than Narus and verint.
Wait till they get into the "geek" factor. As sure as day turns into night we can be certain the PTBs are combing every aspect of Snowden's life with a fine tooth comb. Soon we may hear he was bullied in High School and hung out with the Nurds. Oh wait - we are already hearing things - no one seems to remember him at his old high school...Ah-Ha! that proves he was a loner, a social misfit.
And he has pretty dancer girl friend - now, however did he get to hang out with her? must be something - may be they were breaking up (nothing like a relationship difficulty to undermine principled action)? may be it was cover-up for secret gay liaisons?
well, there is already that consternation going on in the MSM - a community college drop-out - now, how on earth did he become so articulate? obviously he has been reading, and obviously he formed strong opinions, and obviously he was in demand professionally. So what was it he was in demand for?
Well, it should be amusing to watch the drum beat on the MSM....
lysias, seafoid, thanks for the book recommendations. Will check them out when the chance presents itself (I hope they are not too sad though!).
MRW, interesting story about your friends returning to Romania/Hungary. I have heard similar stories about the foreigners (of all sorts, many pre-war ex-pats) going on property buying binges, causing an unwelcome rise in property prices, and often showing little respect for local values a, customs and sensitivities. Like everywhere else in Eastern Europe, Russia included. ,
Stogumber, since you reference my words, I feel obliged to correct something - what I was referring to as a "milieu" (may be not such a good word choice) was not intended to be exclusive to people of Jewish extraction. Rather, it was the urban culture that was taking hold in the large European cities, no doubt enjoyed by those who had more means and leisure at their disposal, ie middle and upper middle class. I used the word 'assimilated" and meant it. A little known fact is that a majority of the people who went to Israel from east European places like Budapest, Bucharest, Prague, and the other large European cities were inter-married, much the way American jews are nowadays. oftentimesy,these marriages involved a husband from jewish background (usually a professional and at least one or two generations out of anything shtetl-like) and a wife who was not. Children were raised almost without religion because to these couples, culture was its own religion. It is partly because of these mixed marriages that so many jewish people survived - many sheltered by their gentile close families. When these couples and their children found themselves in israel - many escaping communism which was not kind to either professional - or businessmen - the non-Jewish partner never bothered to convert. they just became "Israeli" and didn't talk much about who came from what background. No wonder family histories were among the many secrets that children growing up in israel were shielded from. There were much worse secrets, of course, than having a gentile parent.
You are not wrong however in mentioning the divide between traditional and progressive or the less than wonderful circumstances of the people who lived in the country-side and/or toiled for meager compensation in the cities and towns. But, it's no different than progressives nowadays, is it? show much do the coastal elite care about those in "fly-over states? just like now, the cultured pre-WWII urbanites were generally in favor of "peasant rights", at least theoretically. they often had little use for religion, considering it a burden, rather than an asset, making them not-so traditional. For the most part, what little I know of the educated classes back then is that for the most part, many, if not all, felt that true virtue was to be found in service to civil society, which is why you found so many people, jewish included, active in local politics. As for the religions held in contempt, those encompassed both Jewish and gentile, probably in equal measures. The jewish individuals cared little for the useless rabbis (though they did not mind and even fostered the emergence of the more progressive, urbanized "Rabbi" - kind of like the progressive rabbis we see in the US. Same for pastors and priests, for the catholic-nostalgic). Naturally, the less-well-to-do clearly had enormous resentments towards the emergent elites, and quite likely, found fault in whatever mixed ethnic make-up could be drudged up. this no doubt translated into substantial anti-semitism - nothing original there.
Anyways, you are wrong to ascribe to me an emphasis on some jewish-gentile divide in those "lost worlds". my intent was actually the opposite - the disappeared cultures I lament were broadly and deeply assimilated and indeed, quite cosmopolitan in outlook. You may not have much use for idle musings, but I often wonder how these city-worlds - and the European culture in general - would have evolved had WWII not come about and israel did not come to exist in its present unappealing ethnosupremacist form.
More about Hungary: the quote I saw from jobbik was specifically addressing peres' ill-conceived remarks about israeli real estate doing brusk business buying properties in Hungary, Romania, poland etc. This remark did not go down well in any of those countries, all of which are reeling under the current recession. In what universe would a "property-buying spree" during a severe recession not be viewed as exploitation? Speak to any Hungarian (don't forget your dictionary! not so many of the older people speak good English, alas, though they often speak and understand German. Generally, the younger they are the better versed in English). I bet you'll get one of those "blank" stares when the name of Israel comes up. Their reputation is simply not very good there, for any number of reasons, having more to do with the behavior of the country and its representatives and oligarchs than with anything Jewish.
Two asides: (1) in my own Hungarian household, the name "Kastner' was whispered, so the children wouldn't hear. All of us who grew up Israeli among those family strands who came from Hungary, Romania and Czhechoslovakia, only knew the name Kastner as something dark that is best not spoken about. Our parents never answered any questions that I know of, even when newspapers in israel were full of details of the libel trial. The adults spoke among themselves in hushed tones, glancing furtively over their shoulder to make sure the children are not around. Either that or they retreated into speaking in one of the languages we were never taught (such as German). We always knew there was some "bad business" there and forever I've come to associate whatever it was with something mysterious, foreboding and "German". If any of the older children asked a teacher, they would get the same non-answer - it's not for them to know. Kind of like the "Esek Bish", the Lavon affair. Another topic spoken about furtively. I would love to say I was enough of a non-conformist to ask, even as a child. Alas, I seem to have limited my budding non-conformism to "safer" topics, like the pointlessness of religion and the pointfulness of sex. At least that beget 'simple" embarrassment rather than that infinitely pained look, which would be quite unbearable.
(2) Second aside to American - I finished reading "The Pity of it All" about 6 months ago. The book resonated with me because it brought back memories of nostalgia for those "Lost Worlds" - the eventful, ever-so-cultured lives of the assimilated cosmopolitan Jewish people who lived and prospered in the great Capitals of Europe: Berlin, Budapest, Prague, Vienna. And it is not just the jewish inhabitants that were pulled asunder during the war. It was an entire millieu and its optimism, humor and reverence of all things beautiful and smart. A way of life that stood somehow in start opposition to the coarseness and noisiness of life in Israel. Fruits of the Enlightment, gone all cynical and faded by the time I came to know of it. The book made me inexplicably sad.
This is hilarious. Right on the money, too.
I liked the AIPAC part - with just the slightest twist it could all be true!
To reinforce Ramzi's comment and also, to Obama's declaration "that Israel’s future existence and security as a “strong Jewish state” would ensure that there will never be another holocaust":
That statement, as quoted, explicitly excludes any other people from being considered victims on a grand scale of an ethnically based violent persecution. After all, Israel's existence as a "strong jewish state" did not prevent the holocaust in Cambodia, or in Rwanda, or in Gaza or anywhere else that's seen large scale ethnic cleansing and/or general human cleansing campaigns. In Gaza for example, a planned Holocaust is being executed in front of our eyes, in broad daylight. Of course, israelis have learnt the lessons of the perpetrators of their own Holocaust: it's better to take your time, as you up the temperature - letting the world come to gradually accept the unfolding horrors that ensue; this way, by the time it's all done and over with, and the palestinians of Gaza have been permanently "disabled" as functioning humans (something that many upright citizens of the 'strong jewish state" bemoan daily - on their facebooks - that is taking "way too long') it will be too late to rescue the proverbial frog. Notice how the world, in the past decade, has learnt to accept the right of israel to turn an entire area into a ghetto that is cut off from the world as it is being slowly, ever so slowly strangled, using the concept of "Hamas" as an excuse. One that apparently most of the world's do-gooder interventionists are happy to swallow as they unleash, equip and mouth off platitudes about honorful "rebels" to commit unspeakable mayhems in countries that failed to "play ball" with the so-called West. .
Obama, in laying wreaths on the grave of the one who presaged the Nakba - and in making that disingenuous, cowardly statement at Yad Vashem (where mostly only jewish victims of the holocaust are acknowledged) has tacitly agreed with the unstated premise that Palestinians are and have always been sub-human.
Shmuel, I am with you on this. All I can think of is - where was I until a little more than a decade ago? My mental transformation was near complete as much as 2 decades ago, yet, it took much more time to figure out who to travel with and where. For that and other reasons, I am glad to see any and everyone show up at whatever time they are ready and in whatever capacity they can contribute. As things stand, many more drops will need to be assembled before we have enough of an ocean and the dam finally starts to give. For the Palestinians' sake, one can only hope this process doesn't take too long.
Kathleen, you are not being quite fair. For one, it's better late than never. For another, some things take time - especially in the face of the barrage from the MSM we have all been subjected to. When you grow up and live all your life in a cave it takes more time for some to accept that there is a world outside it, even as others, often the silent majority retreat deeper into the cave as the light becomes brighter and harder to resist.
Truth is, most people are not all that "political action inclined" to start with and/or there are so many worthy causes to choose from out there, for those who are. Medea picked her battles as she was cutting her teeth as a movement person and coming to know her own courage in the process. To have reached the place she had - where she is not summarily ejected for heckling during a presidential speech - took a lot of work. Becoming a credible action oriented person takes time, and each does it their own way and at their own pace.
As another aside - there is no time stamp or expiration date on "heroism". Any time is a good time to step up to the plate in whatever form one can contribute. Phil is here, now and his reflections upon the reasons it took as long as it had have been enlightening to many who found it resonated with their own experiences.
We are all human, Kathleen. Even the seemingly superhuman....
annie, agreed about moa site - terrific posts, especially recently about Syria - nowhere else is the information orand the accompanying analysis available. At least not in one place. Frankly, having followed moa for the past 6 months, i have also come to change my mind about what really happened in Libya. Some commenters are pretty good I thought. Do you happen to know who the worst trolls are, so I know to skip? or conversely, who the best, must-not-skip commenters? I noticed that there must be some who are Arabic speaking and bring information from sources we don't usually see.
Something must be happening. It is awfully strange that the friend of one of the perpetrators, who was interviewed on BBC, saying there was an attempt by MI5 to recruit him, was arrested immediately after the interview. Not seen since and no reason provided. Who knows, he might get shot just like Todashev (sp?), Tamerlan's friend, as he is about to sign a confession?
One really doesn't need to be a conspiracy theorist to ask questions. it's enough to follow the facts as we know them to their logical conclusion.
Still, what's up with closing down the comments on this case? what exactly are they afraid of? more Islamophobia than we already see? or is it that people - commenters usually - are beginning to connect the dots? not that it takes a genius or anything. just count the number of perculiarities both in the Boston bombers case and the meat cleaver brandishing Woolwich killers - shot BTW just as they stood there, surrendering calmly, busily explaining their motivation to the people around. Didn't we see Tamerlan also, seemingly alive - and naked - being bundled into a police van (to be told later he was shot and run over by fleeing brother). Oh yes, that was someone else, who just happened to look like Tamerlan. Didn't we see a photo of Dzhokar get out of the boat - on his own - only to find out he was so badly wounded he couldn't even speak? now we are told - incredibly enough that Todashev (sp?), Tamerlan's supposed partner-in-crime was shot as he attacked an agent with a knife - just as he was about to sign a confession (the story of how that's happened keeps changing - from one improbable scenario to another - we don't even know if there was a knife now).
Since so very many people, in the US, in the UK and around the world, are asking serious questions about the exact role of our democracies' law and order agencies, no wonder comments can become an issue for whoever. especially the free wheeling ones usually allowed following Glenn's columns. It's strange he is not more upset, according to his update.
Sorry, RoHa, I didn't make myself clear. It was the Dutch jewish community that was descendant from the "anusim" of Spain (the forced converts) plus the Jews who were expelled. What I meant was that the community was traumatized and insecure, so Spinoza's "epicurian" ideas worried them partly because they feared the Christians' reaction might be (indeed the Christians of holland - tolerant as they were, for the times - were none too keen on Spinoza's heretic views of religion or god, any god). I just read a book on the history of that time and place, which kind of made this background clearer to me (without excusing it, or I would have stopped reading).
I am not doing so well lately, am I? not only have I subjected - single-handedly - Congo to British rule, but now I somehow misrepresented Spinoza as one persecuted due to his parentage - both unintended and well, quite wrong. Of course, I meant Kenya, and of course I meant the "Jewish congregation" but got things garbled (woe is me!). Hope they still post this belated apology to all Brits (who have plenty of colonial crimes to contend with without me piling on a few extra) , and also to all Dutch (who may or may not have a remote relation to Spinoza or his expellatory community). That other thread was closed down in a hurry for some reason, or perhaps they all are, these days. Now I just need to find Bumblebye for more apologetics.
Astutely stated, Shmuel. What I remember from my own history lessons is that there was huge diversity among Jewish communities well before the reformation. I mean, how can anyone even question that, with all the different jewish sects running around, some more orthodox, some less, that on top of those from Arabic countries where customs were altogether different? even Spinoza did not arise from a vacuum and just because he (and Acosta) were put in Herem by the Dutch Jewish community (no doubt as a result of them being descendants of the forced converts of Spain) does not mean that freer thinkers - and writers - did not arise in various communities. Hereticism followed a time-honored jewish tradition from time immemorial, kind of mirroring what happened in the christian communities of Europe. And when they were not "epicursim", there were always those who just resented following the dictates of the rabbis, and found any number of ways to escape confinement in run-down spirit crushing shtetls.
In fact, my other recollection (somewhat clouded now) is that the discourse in a typical secular israeli high school about rabbis of the middle ages and into the 19th century was quite conflicted. They were not presented particularly favorably in general - not surprising, given the israeli branding of Jewish history as perpetual victimism (to use your term) interspersed by a few golden era.
Yonah's view is swayed I think by his American upbringing. Which tends to focus on whatever set of lenses one is provided in their own educational community. In israel too the education greatly varies between the secular and the religious but neither can escape the zionist branding of history - going all the way back into the biblical. And while I totally cannot speak for the orthodox or observant, i can attest to the fact that the secular educational system, to which I was subjected, did a heck of a job dismissing the entirety of Yiddish culture for example, even as it branded itself as "broad-minded", "in-depth" exploration of jewish history. Of course, now, having read a few more odds and ends I realize how short-changed we were - not so much through what we learnt but through that which was omitted.
I do think that the deliberate -near-total excision of Yiddish culture from the israeli scene left a deep hole in whatever Hebrew culture came to be. One that can never be refilled because the voices of an entire generation were silenced. And mind you, these people, most of them refugees from Europe, never did partake much of hebrew as it was too late for most to learn the language or get accustomed to the israeli discourse. So they aged, sadly silenced as they passed on, saddling their children who grew up happily immersed in hebrew with traces of that sadness, forever inexplicable.
Good idea, MRW. I wish something like this would be followed up on. I do worry about what might happen to many sites' archives once the PTBs get their plan going. OK, so I had a nightmare last night, in which the entire digital archives the world over went poof! overnight. Blogs, posts, comments, paul Krugman's best works, everything. In the dream I was really upset that I didn't get around to saving a couple of my own comments and didn't PDF all of Greenwald's works. That plus some book review i really wanted to get back to, now all gone and I can't remember the name of the book. I am still trying to work out what the dream was all about.
Taxi:
Me too....even with them old insufferable trolls. Some good fun was had, great stories were told (including yours, Taxi) and much could be learnt for those willing to plow through the wilderness, shovel at hand, pearl bag at the ready. But then, as a tangent afficionado and megilah spinner, I would say that, eh?
I read that piece (thanks Citizen for bringing to our attention). I see things quite differently however and am inclined to agree with the author Davidson that, on the micro level, enormous progress has been made.
Of course, for those most active in the I/P cause and those making the most personal sacrifices, periodic "loss of heart" is an expected collateral. On an emotional level, the struggle against grave injustice - one perpetrated by powers far greater than oneself - is bound to result in a little depression, now and then, especially when progress seems too small to sustain. However, no one should expect that triumph over injustice should be either quick or easy. Every day there are some who predict the dam will break any minute. But it's a very strong dam with seemingly endless resources for continuing fortification. For a long time now, I have come to believe that Israel's path will not be like South Africa. The Jews of israel are not the Boors, and they are nothing like the Irish catholics. Israel's path to existence was unique and there is every reason to believe that the demise of the zionist enterprise - in its current, increasingly monstrous form - will be unique as well.
Davidson said in his article on Hart's decision that the I/P struggle is about process more than an outcome - which we do not know and can't even see its outlines. I agree with that. What's important is that the process has already redeemed many individuals, and has empowered and enriched the lives of many - in more than one dimension. I think Phil and Adam can probably attest to that. As can many others. For myself, I continue to be astounded by the humanity, strength and moral commitment shown by the many activists and writers and even mere commenters for the cause, a commitment that almost resembles religious fervor at times (we can all use a little fervor now and then, right, Mooser?).
Hart may have made an unfortunate gamble whereupon his personal fortunes were adversely affected. But then relying on wealthy individuals to come through - whoever they are - is something that has an expiration date stamped on it. i think many a foundation can attest to that. He blames wealthy palestinians for not putting their money where their mouths is, but then, wealth goes by its own rules, doesn't it? not everyone can be a Buddha or a St. Francis, can they? and wealthy palestinians are probably wealthy before they are palestinian, really no different than wealthy Jews.
BTW, I find it an interesting parallel between the voices announcing the coming collapse of Capitalism and those presaging the collapse of the zionist enterprise (as opposed to the "Jewish" state - that's something different altogether). People sometimes seem to think that just because there are obvious systemic problems, that the system itself will collapse any day. If i learnt anything it's that systems, no matter how weak the foundations and numerous the fault lines, once they achieve a certain size, the system fights tooth and nail to stay erect.
Oh well, I'm not sure whether any of this will make you happier, Citizen. Perhaps a bit more sanguine though?
jon s - the ultimate concern prawl.... actually it's a kind of a dance: clap twice to show you deeply care for the "misery and bloodshed" of the aw-so-not-Jewish followed by a jive to the right to symbolize the parallels between 'resistance" and "terrorism". The dance, I believe was invented in Algeria suffocating under the French colonizers. Or was it in Congo under the oh-so-civilized brit-rule?
BTW, for those interested in dance moves, this dance also includes a couple of short hops to the left, with head turned to the right. I think we all know what that stands for. jon s does it pretty well, just not much stamina - whiplash is an ever present danger indeed.
tokyobok, drawing a parallel between Maher's steady villification of muslims - and islam, and Greenwald's impassioned refrain against lumping all and one under some kind of an establishment-promoted umbrella, is beyond unfair. Glenn did not make 'defense of muslims' one of his linchpin topics, as Mahler did his obvious Islamophobia. To Greenwald, it is the the unfair persecution of muslims in the media, using the tools of Versailles and the court syncophants of the democratic party, is but one glaring example of the hypocricy and cow-towing to the PTB that has come to typify the power brokers and their lap-dog media in this country. He especially enjoys excoriating self-appointed guardians of "the left", peddlers of identity politics who engage in white-washing the crimes of their own side, while leveling accusations against other entities in the world, guilty of much the same. he sspecially enjoys point out the way left and right close ranks on certain issues (such as the evisceration of the 4th amendment) while pretending there are big differences among them. The matter of zealous prosecution of muslims in the US, while pretending that the endless bombing carried out in our name has nothing to do with the rage of people who live in those countries, is an especially favorite topic of his. On that issue Glenn gives an articulate voice to all of us who see those connections loud and clear, but are not blessed with either his erudition or efficiency.
Attempting to dump Greenwald and Mahler into the same type of cesspool for "proxy wars of words" is disingenuous, to say the least. Either you are not familiar with the body of Greenwald's work (of which there is much to wade through by now, him being as prolific as he is scorching in the art of exposing the dishonest snivelers and peddlers of the "lie-du-jour" in the "most powerful country in the world"), or you didn't really listen to this exchange, or - well, I won't mention the third alternative.
George, sounds like a great course. Do you think the course might cover non-Abellian dynamics that have been shown to be so useful in deriving the critical quotients of tyrant badness that result in phase transformations of thuggish militia into freedom loving resistance fighters? if so, I would be very interested, since as you know, this is a highly controversial formulation, as seen most recently in Syria. In fact, there were (unconfirmed) reports that prior derivations of the badness quotients, attributed for example to great moral mathematicians such as Tom Friedman and Bill Keller, may have been manipulated through questionable wmd renormalizations, which, as you may know, have now been summarily refuted.
Do you happen to know whether the course will be offered through on-line extension? can one use it towards credit for a degree in the field of Moral Hazards? i was told that this is an increasingly popular sub-division of behavioral economics and am seriously contemplating making it my major.
DavidK, I have taken to refering to jewish people outside israel as "Jews of the world" or "Jews out in the world". By no means implying a single umbrella to lump all unto but inferring that there is a multitude outside the israeli shtetl. It's more accurate this way and does not posit that some are lesser than others by virtue of being in some kind of a "diaspora". this BTW, was not an original term but one suggested to me by a certain commenter here, and I decided to adopt it.
In hebrew, the word "diaspora' usually translates as "galut", and it definitely comes with negative connotations of something diminished by "outsiderness', deprived of warmth and distant in heart and soul - a sad kind of existence, like fish out of water.
I am now more careful to use "diaspora" to refer to a mental state of a distancing of the soul from its human essence. By which definition, it is israelis (the vast majority of them) who live in a true diaspora.
On that, I am sure the prophets of old (well, some of them) would back me.
hophmi, a conference attended by someone as discredited as the sniveling Blair (who makes the giant snails about to invade Texas cuddly cuties by comparison), is definitely not one Hawking should be seen in. Everything has a limit - even hasbara-fests.
As to Clinton, well, like Blair, he sure goes to where the money is, but has a better knack for papering over the slime, so it's not quite as visible.
He has last been been in evidence on MOA - what's up with passing over MW? maybe he is fuming over a comment taking longer than 10 minutes to appear? if it is, I hope he returns to share the good fumes with the rest of us, poor fumers that we are....
RJL, why won't you take issue with my comment (to which seafoid was responding by raising me one in the sarcasm department)? mine was so much more not-anti-semitic! plus it was more puerile than sterile (I don't do sterile, DNA won't let me, sorry). Did you actually catch the full depravity of said comment and absorbed the implications? i implied israel was "badder than Assad" and you let that one slide? how could you?
BTW, I am sure that seafoid would have the same non-objections to bombing Saudi-Arabia to rescue innocent Saudi girls from non-driving, non-voting, all covered-up fate, as he would to rescuing the rarely-driving, sort-of-voting, kind-of-covered-up, similarly innocent ultra-orthodox girls.
For what it's worth, I have full confidence in seafoid's inner sense of symmetry. Though when it comes to RJL, alas, i got my doubts.
This is my complaint against "MDW" (freudian for "WMD"? ) commenters - no one ever wants to pick a fight with me. (OK, hophmi tried once, but alas, he went off the reservation in the length department, which is MY territory). I feel discriminated against and in recompense am demanding the prompt return of Mooser (whom we all miss, right?).....
Krauss, using your reasoning, why not bomb Israel and it's collection of WMDs "back to the stone age", as you suggest for Syria? after all, there's no doubt Israel is guilty of committing horrid atrocities, possibly much worse - and more numerous - than Assad, has built an apartheid "hopscotch" state that discriminates against well over 30% of its citizens, has one captured territory (gaza) turned into an internment camp where it periodically runs some bombing runs to cull its citizens, and has another territory (the "West bank0 being ethnically cleansed as we speak, encourtaging it's peasants (the settlers") and it's state sanctioned Kossacks (the "IDF") to perpetrate pogroms in broad daylight. All that while keeping 1000s of political prisoners , including children, imprisoned under horrible conditions, and generally behaving like a proper fadscist thuggish regime, with some of the population benefitting while others - the majority - used as cannon fodder to keep things humming along for the elite.
You tell me one reason, Krauss that we should not be bombing israel as opposed to Syria, if you are so keen on having "bombing fun"? or, if not the US (which is obviously subjugated to Israel) then why object if, say, russia does the job and gets rid of the threat that WMDs possessed by a rogue regime, represent, a regime that like clockwork, keeps threatening to "wipe off the map", cf. "bomb into the stone age" other humans?
frankly, next to the yahoos running the show in israel like it's their little garden party, Assad looks pretty good - --
So, to build on your peculiarly strange comment, if "badness' is the yard stick for "OK to bomb" and the ruling regime in israel (a democracy much as Sparta was - just for the few privileged) is even badder" than Assad's (where "badness" is measured by total number of people killed and atrocities perpetrated over, say, the last 15 years, and number of people - percentage-wise - deprived of their liberty and human rights), then Israel's WMD caches - in Dimona, on the outskirts of Tel Aviv and haifa - should be the first target, no? after all where do you think these nuclear tipped missiles are aimed at, exactly? at Riad? Amman? or is it Moscow and Leningrad?
Looks like al-Qaeda has acquired an air force, doesn't it? call it "Salafi Air Defense"?
annie, on that I think there's general agreement. The "arms for hezbollah" is just the agreed-upon excuse.
Now where are those Russian ships headed for the Mediterranean? aren't they supposed to pass through the Suez canal this coming weekend? perhaps Israel wanted to do something (the kind of thing they are fond of doing) just a bit a head of time?
ivri, why are Iran nukes - were it to ever get them - perceived as existential threat to israel? and is there anything israel doesn't like that is NOT perceived as "existential threat"?
One would think that it is the huge supply of israeli nukes are an existential threat to America and Europe - much less to Iran and Turkey - a threat far more immediate and real than anything Iran may or may not have, given that israel is such a dysfunctional obssessive entity centered strictly on its own neurosis, which it tries to sell as self-interest. So why not support a dismantling of Israel's WMDs? (including the extensive chemical and biological ones, of course).
there is, in fact, every indication that Israel's arsenal of WMD's, coupled with having taken US foreign (and to some extent, domestic) politics hostage is the greatest threat the world is currently facing. Some would even say that if not for the Israeli ever present paranoia-on-steroids and its ethnocentric self absorbed muckraking assortment of complexes, why - most of the world could concentrate on important threats to the planet, of which we have plenty.
It's time to raise up the calls for a nuke-free middle east, israel being the first in line. That might have amazing effects on quelling the paranoia and perhaps helping curtail the horrific human rights abuses and daily well documented atrocities perpetrated by israelis against other members of the human race whose presence in their midst israelis find annoying.
Shmuel, your reply is much appreciated (delays not withstanding. What's a few days between rebels? it's not like either of us is going to win over the hearts and minds that count anytime soon). I should really try to do a survey** - go beyond the personal circles. Must figure out for example how Mikko Peled came to the place he did and not one of the people I actually know ever came close. Richard Silverstein told me once he knows two others, in the Seattle area. One was Oren's son I believe. Have them on my tiny list.
There I was, thinking it is my sample that's too small, or selective (tech and all that). But I do understand the need to be selective...friction goes only so far in keeping things hopping....before it gets a tad sour.
No, I did not read Sami Michael's book but it sure sounds interesting (darn - I have like 10 books ahead of it - why, of why, did I decide to take a sudden interest in Economics theories? it sure is a lonely hobby..). I'll put the book on my list for sure. Please keep recommending reading materials (but please, no more macroeconomics. not even marx - who was apparently 150 years ahead of his time....).
__
** am pretty good at designing surveys, if i say so myself. Now who could possibly underwrite such? ZOA?
One wonders how the views and impressions expressed in the novel dovetail with those of Abigail Abrabanel, who also has deep psychological insights of the israeli collective. Abigail's take of course is dark and somber, which reflect mine rather well. I'll just have to check out Noam's book one of these days. In the meantime, I'll share a bit of my own viewpoint as an ex-Israeli (rather than the Israeli ex-pat that most who left israel like to view themselves) .
As I mentioned here often enough, I came to believe that to step outside israel for real is more akin to leaving a cult, than emigrating from a country. The emphasis here is on "for real", which is something that israelis who grew up in israel, served in the military, married and started families there, but ended up making their residence outside when well along into adult life - can't really do. For one, most of those who leave israel do so usually for economic reasons - they are actually economic migrants, not moral pilgrims. The economic reasons often have to do with opportunities - which is why so many israeli ex-pats are in hi-tech and/or academia. When they look back on Israel from a far - after having been out for a while - they start seeing many flaws - as is common with every ex-pat from anywhere - the defects in the glass come into focus only when one can look at it from the outside. When one is inside, the defects merely serve to darken the sky in patches, breaking up the horizon into a crazy quilt of patterns, which are then attributed to the state of affairs in the "world out there", and then held to be true. From the outside, it's the defects that become clear, even as one carries one's recollection of those patterns originally absorbed as an insider, continuing to project them on the glass' outside surface, like it's some kind of comfort-food. The difference with other emiimmigrants, is that for the israeli emigre (who often won't even admit to themselves they are an emigre), the realization that they are now looking through the glass more darkly (just for knowing that it was glass all along in which they lived), comes with loads of guilt. Not only have they escaped that place, now seen as full of 'defects", but they left their bretherns behind to suffer the vagaries of an imperfect state of affairs. Between guilt, nostalgia and desperately trying to maintain family ties, they usually manage to stay firmly within the cult, even as they profess to a more "global" outlook. But it's an existence that requires continuous atonement - one in which their children, growing outside the israeli state apparatus, don't share, even as they partake of the Israeli customs - zealously kept as a token of atonement. So many of the families I know have these layers of estrangement built-in. Quite noticeable to the type of "outsider" who in their wanna-be matured states still cares to consort with teen-agers (now, who could that be?).
It helps that the majority of the Israeli ex-pats - especially the ones who came for jobs and university positions, are married to another israeli. At home they will continue to speak Hebrew. Outside the home, their social circle will include mostly other israeli ex-pats - almost never - or only many years later, actual jewish Americans. Even outside israel, the Jewish and israeli gestalts remain strictly separate. When israelis take on American citizenship, they remain Israelis - often in that curious way where they have amazingly little curiosity of what America- that amazing assemblage of semi-autonomous states bound by a constitution and a bill of rights and a 200 year history - is really like. What they learn of the US usually comes as gift of their children's education in American schools. Their inborn racism towards others not like themselves remains intact, though it evolves, as they learn to tamper what they say about people of color, natives of all sorts, and most importantly, Christianity. They still feel vastly superior to Christians but slowly begin to accept that Christians and those with Christian background have their "good points", even Catholics! Unfortunately, many (I don't have a percentage, sorry - it's all anecdotal) become even more entrenched in their Arabophobia and contempt for Islam. Certainly, no israeli I know of would understand Phil in the slightest. This blog would both mystify and anger them. Marc Ellis' pieces would make them break out in hives, assuming they would ever care to read through even a paragraph, much less think about the meanings contain within. A caveat here - as I said, the majority of people I know were technology/science oriented, so they are more often than not, philistines, just like others in those fields, at least till they grow a bit older. Ellis would be way too "intellectual" and "humanistic" for them. (translated into Hebrew: "yumanisti ve intellectuali"). I am sure Shmuel would have a different perspective, though without the American angle, alas (still, would love to hear all its angles - hint, hint).
What's all this has to do with Ellis' comments about the book? well, I should read it first, shouldn't I? in the meantime, it's Ellis' fault for causing inspiration....
For those who speak and understand hebrew, the racist comments made by Israelis of all stripes are ubiquitous. Some of the netter educated speak in code, disguising their intense contempt and suspicion of anything Arab. Not everyone "hates' Arabs. Most just think "they" should know 'their" place and not try to mix with the first class citizens.
To get a taste of what average - and not so average - Israelis think and quip about, the social media are a good place. Just check the stories being shared on facebook and look at the comments. Sometimes, the worst comments are the off-handed ones, which assume everyone is on the same page. I'll see if I can bring in a few examples.
Don, I think the conflict is in the process of becoming about jewish identity, and the article cited in the post is a case in point. It wasn't always so. Once there was a huge debate about zionism and its role in jewish life. That debate has been largely resolved in favor of zionism and has now degenerated into a sad cacophony of whimpers, as zionism has slowly but surely risen to eat up Judaism itself. In the process, jewish identity has been swept up into the maelstrom, something that Israel welcomed and did its utmost to encourage.
The unfortunate thing is that the harshest battle front is yet to be made manifest in its full goriness - that's the one between Jewish and human identities. The two are already in a state of all out war in israel, where one sees daily calls for exiling the leftists to gaza and/or giving them a taste of the Palestinians' lives that they are keen on defending (people have no clue, I think, about the unbelievable vitriol directed at Gideon levy and Amira Hass' way). In the US, the battle lines have not yet been fully arrayed, but the skirmishes are increasing in both frequency and shrillness. Unfortunately, this has already torn up the fabric of democratic party and is now laying siege to democracy itself.
John Douglas,
That is a really excellent comparison. And right on the money.
Embracing the sufferings of people persecuted by one's own tribe (whatever that "tribe" is) is bound to be perceived as treason against the group of which one is supposed to be a part. Whenever people choose to enlarge their view of who their 'tribe" is - to include all members of the human family - they will incur the wrath of not just those mired in their own parochialism, but of those among their group whose ultimate commitment is to "peace and quiet". That's why progressives did not give full throated support to the Occupy movement and even now, as we speak, are slithering away in the shadow of the abominable killer drone program condoned and practiced by their own supposed leaders of the democratic camp.
I am also reminded of the kids who rose against the Vietnam war and of Jane Fonda who went to North Vietnam and was branded as a "traitor' ever after. But your quotation is by far the most astute, all the more praise-worthy for being so succint.
goldimarx: please explain what the following words mean to you:
"contradiction"
"bigotry"
"merit"
it just seems that you use a different Webster dictionary to define these terms, since they are both ill-applied and lacking in meaning (ie, pulled out of a hat). may be you are practicing your ESL? still it'd help if we could agree on common terminology. Note for example that in Hebrew, there's no exact equivalent to "bigotry" - so it might be challenging to translate. And "merit' is tricky too.
goldmarx: "Does ‘tikkun olam’ come from Christian-based tradition, or from pre-Christian Hillel?".
Wrong question. Many have already noted the close connection between Jesus' preachings and the teachings of Hillel. Some scholars say that the evidence shows that Jesus was a follower of the Hillel school, who sought to expand upon those teachings but made the mistake of going into the den of wolves that was, at the time, Jerusalem. The commonalities between Hillel (where he contends with more universalist themes) and the originaklt teachings ascribed to Jesus are legion. One could even say that most of the new Testament teachings (when shorn of storified specifics, no doubt added later by Paul's followers) are but distilled versions of Hillel's more universalist themes,
You should look into the scholarship on this, goldmarx - both from Jewish and Christian perspectives - and you might learn something - certainly more than if you continue to respond to history with hysterionics.
PilgrimSoul, that quotation from Kafka is priceless, and totally apropo. Thanks for bring it in....
Over time, much time, and lots of internal resistance, I have come to see the "Jewish ethical tradition", that laudable Tikun-Olam concept, as something that was borrowed from the best of Christian-based traditions. jewish ethics mirrors protestant ethics and the idea of universalism and 'religion as personal choice'. Seen another way, one could claim that modern jewish ethics represent an approach of expanding that which applied strictly to members of the tribe, to all others - though again, this fundamentally, is what early Christianity preached. Viewed still another way, Jewish ethics, such as we see it reflected in and through politically and spiritually progressive movements, including Lerner's Tikkun and JVP, is a kind of replay of early Christianity, the one Paul took over to demark lines of separation from tribalism. And some of that harkens to the school of Hillel, poised as it was against the more militantly muscular, all-jewish, in ward looking, House of Shammai.
Butler's themes, i am sure, will resonate with those of 2000 year old era when Shammai and Hillel followers fought their bloody battles - both spiritually and - often - physically. All of modern israel, the idea of zionism in fact, are a return to the preachings of Shammai, who, in their time, counseled the jewish zealots of old. Those who rose foolishly to see their temple lost and peoples dispersed. That took time, just as the appoiontment of zionsims with fate will take time to play out. But Ellis is right. It is well past noon and the prophets are showing up - in trickles, if not droves.
What I, in my own vey personal journey, found difficult to reconcile to -is that jewish tradition - as practiced and followed for millenia - lacked truly democratic traditions. In modern times, since the days of the enlightenment, Jewish people who left the ghetto adopted priciples of democracy hands over fist - for self-preservation, if not for ethical reasons alone. But it was not invented by them and was hardly ever followed within their own communities. No, that tradition, the democratic one, harkens back to the greeks, through many false starts in Europe, before being planted most firmly in English and scandinavian soils. From which there is a straight line to America. Jewish people basically hopped on that train and strove mightily to make it their own, oftentimes making claims to rights of invention, not theirs to take.
Judith butler - to her great credit - seems to be striving to unearth Hillelite principles, as a new guide for an exile, reinterpreted as that of the heart. That I take from Ellis' essay here, and am looking forward to reading her book. In the meantime, hats off to her, who tries to blaze a trail to a future divorced from the twin sins of xenophobic nationalism and arrogant exceptionalism. It's going to be a long lonely journey though, with only the likes of Phil Weiss and a handful of devotees for company.
kalithea: How can you turn back once your eyes are open? You’re supposed to be changed by awareness. It’s like trying to fit, squeeze back into a mold of yourself that you’ve outgrown! How can you pretend to feel at ease in a crowd that just doesn’t see what you’ve seen?
You must not be a member-in-good-standing of the Jewish Intellectual class. That's where the practice of self-doubt has been honed into an art form for the gentle mannered and genteel of hearts . All of history distilled into an "on the one hand/on the other hand" (proof: there are people out there who actually think "portnoy's complaint' was a good book). That being the case, kudos should go to Phil for his willingness to share the doubts that plague those whose task it is to think and expound along paths that don't get you a perch among the well-annointed of the MSM. The doubts he shares are common to many, and I have full confidence that such as they are, he will not lose heart, even as the battles ahead put ever greater strains on many a cherished welcome mat. In fact, I think that giving a voice to these questions is important, especially as it will, IMO, become increasingly challenging to stay the course and not lose heart in the face of the overwhelming powers arrayed against us all.
Your points are good ones though. One cannot turn back once they witnessed the light. Still, for those in the jewish community who chose to cast their lot with the cause of justice and human rights, sometimes the hardest struggles will be those within. I think for most people, jewish and not, who choose to walk alongside the palestinians (especially without being one), as they forge their own history bearing the full weight of a cross we cannot lighten, a momentary pause to examine our own motives, can be of benefit. That's just one of the ways to find out the depth of our own commitment.
As to your apt analogy: even Jesus is reputed to have had his doubts.....
Which is why the next battle lines will be drawn to enforce silence (just see the attempts - not yet successful - at introducing "hate speech' clauses on campuses; or the use of libel laws in the UK or the effective silencing in Canada).
OlegR,
a really strong moral argument based on the fact that we really can live on a vegetarian or even vegan diet and don’t do it out of convenience and habit.
Sometimes sense from you, or perhaps a softer side of the heart? second time I notice something from you that I could quite agree with, if only in passing.
Now, to the argument you could have finished with: Israel really could live with a palestinian neighbour state - even on strict '67 borders - they just won't do it out of habit (of fear, suspicion and loathing) and convenience (why go to the trouble and incur the tiniest of risks, if one can get away with more?).
If you understand the moral high ground argument with regard to human consumption of animals, then you do the argument (even the maximalist one) about 2 states, and maybe that's where you are.
Trouble is - with a viable 2 states all but a faded mirage, what we have left is a situation analogous to one where even "humane" farming would be, effectively, outlawed, and PETA advocates criminalized. That's where Israel is going - a state where the word - "humane" - will be treated as code for "subversive" - -
The day when the stampede to the moral low ground becomes all too visible is not far off, unfortunately.
annie, citizen, I just noticed this exchange here and got my ears all perked up. Can't say I paid much attention to said "contradiction" at the time, perhaps because contradictions - real or implied - is what I breath. But then, looking at this quotation from Gilad, I noticed (probably because of a theme that preoccupies me these days) the extreme "Israeliness" of Gilad in holding forth so resolutely, beating down the point of "self interest". Or rather, it was that in juxtaposition to Phil's own inclination to finesse and straddle divides between issues - something we often see on this blog, to the apparent confusion of some and merriment of others.
My contention is that Israelis may become "ex" and may indeed gravitate to a place that stands in direct opposition to the xenophobia and excessive "ethnic" self-interest in which they were raised. But they still find it hard to leave a point well enough alone, especially if it requires learning to live with, or even embracing nuance in points of view as expressed by others (even as they demand recognition of nuance as applied to themselves). By contrast, someone like Phil (generalizing now) has had to learn a quality I'd call (for lack of another word) "balance of the spirit" which, when turned on , say in a conversation, can become a 'spirited balancing act" between faintly or fairely oppositional points of view. I think that allegiance to balance comes partly from "being American" and, partly through personal inclinations, that are tuned to nuance, the two kind of reinforcing each other. i am not sure Gilad would be able to process (at least not right away) the "being American" part, simply for not living in America.
Note: i know I am presuming by projecting on Phil - though he makes a rather good canvass to project things on (i mean check out this blog!). However, I don't think I am projecting much when speaking of "Israeliness". That is the quality that, IMO, can lead to the coining of somewhat ill-sitting terms, such as "Jewish-ness". Being an Israeli means that one can forget that hyphens tend to get lost on the way from here to there. Something which an American would of course, know, jewish or otherwise.
RJL, the vilest and most ferocious hate speech against jews is most commonly found in israel. representing views usually held by other Jewish israelis. Also, when it comes to vicious murders, you'll find the vast majority of the worst kind are jew-on-jew, including, but not limited to a large number of mafiosi, such as the Abutbul clan and the Russian "families".
What I wonder about is why comments such as RJL's not considered hate speech. I agree with annie - this one is dripping with vitriol towards non-Jews, including peddling disgusting tropes against Muslims, who are apparently hated with a passion by ones who consider themselves members of a certain other religion. far be it from me to call for banning anyone, but I think a comment such as RJL's should be properly tagged as hate speech, and treated with the disdain it deserves.
Actually, miriam6, hebrew is not all that good a language for love. speaking from experience. It's definitely better in french - try it sometime.
i do not BTW profess to stand for Palestinians per se. Not being one - it's not for me to do - as I cannot even begin to appreciate their suffering in the hands of their conquerors. But i do try to stand for humans - being one myself - and which I consider palestinians to be as well. It is humanity that israel put itself in opposition to and I am sorry to see you don't have the tools to appreciate what that means.
And yes, far from self-loathing (is that a projection BTW?) I do indeed resent having spent over 2 decades growing up in what i consider a cult. Like all refugees from cults- israeli mormon, ultras-orthodox, a lingustic struggle is part of the de-programming took kit, especially since language itself was part of the programming protocols. But I have no hope you'd understand since you seem to try rather hard to keep one foot inside the cult. Not that you could ever gain full entrance into the israeli gestalt, sorry. But putting comments on MW is certainly a good way of knocking on those doors - and they love that sound inside the gates. Makes them feel popular.....
PS you shouldn't take up arms against an Israeli - ex or extant. They don't mind fighting under the belt, you know. That part never changes - even if transposed to another language.....
Agreed. The only way forward on BDS that makes sense is to avoid as much as possible anything with "made in Israel" tag. All this boycotting of settlement products is just so much noise, IMO and barely makes a dent. besides, the israelis are clever enough to find ways around the roadblocks.
There is only one solution and that is all out boycott. The justification is obvious - the vast majority of israelis support the occupation and are only concerned if it looks like they can't get away with it. Hardly any israeli loses sleep over a single suffering palestinian and if tomorrow a way was found by israel to dispose of them all without a howl from the world, that would be fine - again with most israelis (disclaimer - not all!). Every day israelis support and uphold the horror show and oppression that is the occupation. Every day they support criminal activity they know very well is carried out in their name. And most - not all - could care less if they could just find a way to "nuke" Iran and Lebanon too - if only there were no consequences - why - they could find a way to live with the outcome, no matter how great the atrocity - as long as it isn't the "Jewish ones' that suffer. That's the sad reality of the israeli population. They deal with it just fine, being armed with enough excuses to fill the oceans of the world as to why they need not care about calamities that are of their own choosing.
The sick gestalt that is the israeli mind-frame is the reason I support not only commercial boycott but also cultural and academic. It's not all that hard, and it can be something consisting of a series of personal choices. very personal even. One does not have to always give a reason why one chooses to collaborate with one university rather than another. one does not even need to give an excuse for skipping a performance - it's not like there isn't plenty to choose from. And when it comes to buying any equipment or a software application or a product - the choices are, again, legion. Isn't that something we learnt to do as good consumers anyways? in just one example - I know people who refuse to shop at Walmart as a matter of principle. Yes, they are giving up on a few things, like lower cost on a few items, but aren't they also gaining in, eg, easier conscience? what's the cost of that? other people choose to be vegetarians. Again, they lose out on a few staples and need to work harder to replace them to remain healthy. But perhaps their overall health gains from having to be more resourceful and perhaps also from the easier conscience.
If more and more people boycotted anything that's made in Israel and avoided inviting their authors/academics/artists/technologists etc it'd make a real impact. Some very good people can get caught in this, no doubt. They can, however, leave israel. Living there is a choice and by making that choice those who stay there give a hand to a horrific occupation and a crazy quilt of steroid fueled ethnic theocracy masquerading as "culture".
Of course, it's easy for me to say. I made the ultimate boycott - I've stopped speaking and reading in Hebrew quite a while ago, and let even my close family connections wither on the vine. That last one took only the recognition that everyone and everything is ultimately replaceable. Change is not necessarily a bad thing, and learning to live without some things one has taken for granted can make for some good lessons in creative choices. But i do accept that this may be harder for some than others. Others can make worthier choices and more power to them.
My point was that very few Israelis do, and those who do acquire real command of the English language (say, enough to have a meaningful discussion on say, politics or philosophy or, for that matter, relationships) are typically those who spent some years abroad in an English speaking country. These individuals will generally be the most highly educated and/or technologically mobile. You know, even in the US I meet israelis that even after 20+ year in the country are still having a hard time conversing fluently in English. partly that's because if they are married, they still speak hebrew at home. Partly, it's because of that other factor I mentioned - becoming fluent in English is accompanied by a change in sensibilities. It is no minor matter to make a move to a language with more than an order of magnitude greater vocabulary. it IS accompanied - almost by definition - by an expansion of consciousness - even on an ordinary, day to day level.
As for Holland's jews being given up - so would most of Israel's Arabs and Asian slave laborers. I doubt there would be found as many Israelis giving shelter to an Arabic or Asian person/family as there were ordinary Dutch citizens either - in similar circumstances. So I wouldn't go around knocking the Dutch, miriam6 - you'd be better advised to look to your own. You might find them greatly lacking in that mysterious quality, known as compassion, when extended to anyone outside the "tribe". of course, the tribe is not of a cloth either, so I would assume there would be a whole lot of "giving each other up" too.
These are all really excellent points tree. Some bear repeated emphasis since they get lost in the shuffle. may be i'll try to do it justice later, if "they' let the thread stay open for a bit longer (lately I noticed that of the few posts I commented on - really no more than a dozen or so in the past 6 months due to time constraints - a disproportionate number get closed a bit on the early side. Coincidence, conspiracy, or just happenstance?. The Khalidi discussion is just the latest of those. oh well....i better hurry)
Zochrot is indeed a great organization. As is Breaking the Silence. As is +972 and a few other organizations. So, how many can these worthy groups call upon? what percentage israelis even know about them, much less care? That's what I mean about "conversation". When such takes place in a small circle formed from among all of a few hundred or even a thousand souls, what impact does that have on the israeli society at large? how many bloggers even mention it? In israel, all these excellent organizations - and individuals - get dismissed with the disdainful, blanket epithet "leftists". By contrast, in the US similar conversations take place across the left-right, liberal-conservative, denominational and all manner of other divides.
Unfortunately, most liberal zionists Americans talk to those all too few similar minded israelis, when they can talk to them at all, ie, mostly to/with the few who are fluent in English. Most of the people I know in israel for example are not what I would call English fluent - though they can understand the basics and express themselves simply. The issues concerning the conflict between "Jewish" in the israeli sense, and "Democratic' in the universal sense, are however hardly simple, so the language barrier alone makes communications quite difficult.
And that language barrier was actually my key point, since so few can cross it, on either side. And it is my belief (which I can only back by personal and anecdotal experience) that differences in language tend to come bundled with differences in sensibilities. To me it's as clear as air, hardly in need of explanation, but I do understand if it is not so for others. So I keep coming back to this point.
I find it interesting that hardly anyone notes that this American Jewish "conversation about democracy vs Judaism" has no equivalent on the Israeli side. Give or take a few score or so of American Israelis (ie, israelis of American origin) such as Bradley Burston, Larry Derfner, Bernard Avishai, Gorenberg etc. The vast majority of israelis have already chosen their verdict - ages ago. It's something along the lines of "demcracy is for sissies" - and of course for PR consumption to cheer up some softie Americans, and give them cover.
I never fail to be impressed by the fact that Jewish Americans so totally fail to process just how deeply and radically different they are from Israelis. The two communities hardly have any common frames of reference. they certainly have no language in common, or experience, or culture, for that matter. As I mentioned before, part of the reason Americans know so absolutely zilch about israelis is the language barrier. Most jewish Americans cannot read or comprehend Hebrew and the vast majority of Israelis do not process English very well. As a result, the tenor of life in israel - to which hebrew is critical - goes uncomprehended by the Americans. one can pay lip service to hebrew culture all day long, but at the end of the day, israeli movies require subtitles and their books need to be translated. And their facebooks are literally a world apart as are their blogs and just about everything else. The gap is so huge that frankly to me it seems that jewish Americans can more easily understand Christian zionists and/or Texas cowboys than they can the average Israeli. At least they can read things in the original.
Funny thing is - the Israelis do know how far the communities are and the most average of average Israelis can articulate (in Hebrew, of course) the depth of their disdain - and indeed contempt - for those Jewish Americans that seem to wring their hands ever so delectably over some elusive "democracy". Just keep the money coming, is the common refrain. Shared values, indeed. Stuff for comedians...
The agony of individuals such as JJ Goldberg would be a laughing matter to most Israelis - were you to ask them (again, be sure to use Hebrew when you ask. Their English vocabulary is alas, not even up to the task of perceiving irony, assuming perception of any kind other than self-interest is even part of the tool kit). As for Vilkomerson - she is far closer to what the real task is - the conversation in America can only be American, which means it must include non-Jewish Americans - as fully equal members. That conversation is far more relevant - and likely to bear some fruit - than any pretend influence Liberal jewish people can have on conversations in israel by that miniscule group known as "liberal israelis".
When are people going to face the truth? israelis and American jews have very little in common other than a tenuous ethnic/religious affiliation. I think it's time to cut the umbilical cord and go with what there is, not some unrealistic notions of what could be. May be as more people see the increasing drift away from democracy in israel they'll wake up.
Or not.
And pay the price.