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Danaa

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  • Afghan parliamentary team says many Americans were involved in massacre in which army accuses one
    • Danaa March 18, 2012 at 4:36 pm

      i don’t agree that all is lost, convinced as i am that we can awaken the public to the realities of the i/p conflict in time to pressure our government in reexamining its unconditional support of israel.

      I absolutely don't wish my words to be construed as discouragement on any level and hope you will continue to battle on any front you care to take on. I have no beef with anyone who is active on any scale, large or small.

      But I have to do my Jeremiah bit in the hope that, like Jonah, I'll be proven wrong, at which point it'll be time to go and cavort with whales.

      As I said on that now defunct thread (thanks be to the blog gods for closing that time trap), for me the discussions of Jewish identity and/or Atzmon etc. serve a potentially useful purpose as rallying cries to get more multitudes to pay attention. Perhaps there'll be some (and I think many) quicker to engage on that front, that could along the way be swayed by the fate of the Palestinians too.

      Personally, I think we need everyone on every front to have an effect on the course of events before it is indeed too late. And along those lines Jeremiahs (and even Cassandras) do have their uses.

    • Danaa March 18, 2012 at 1:50 pm with 4 replies

      yours truly,

      "your saying that defeating zionism is the responsibility of all americans (not only the 2% of us who are jewish) is liberating for me because, among other things, it frees my mind to get back on track. "

      Only problem is that defeating zionism is not gonna happen without serious Jewish soul searching. Unless the jewish people turn against zionism - and soon - and en mass - there won't be much in the way of Palestinian people in the West bank to "track". But hey, keep working on the feel-good things so you can lament the big great bad that America is (the 98%) - right along with the other 1000 or so who want to have a "free mind" and a guilt-free conscience.

      BTW, the fact that the thread was shut down and that there were so many comments on it (and would have been many more) shows what the problem is. Effectively, you and the others who argued as you did without having read much of Atzmon, lost the argument, so it was obviously time to shut down the MW version of Zuccotti Park.

      No wonder that you feel so grateful. there will be many more opportunities to thank your angels when the battle is lost -- a few years from now. So keep the Thank You cards handy.

  • How important is it to the Times (and us) that Greg Smith is Jewish?
    • Danaa March 18, 2012 at 2:34 pm

      Perhaps the reason Atzmon is such a lighting rod is because he jumps right over the boundaries.

      Right on, Pixel.

      Note how quickly those boundaries were re-fortified (proof - that other thread was shut down just it was getting really interesting).

    • Danaa March 18, 2012 at 2:19 pm with 1 replies

      Glad someone pointed out this show. It was most unusual in that Stuart did not even run the usual guest segment, just let Oliver run with the Unesco bit, which made Wexler look like an incomparable idiot.

      In one episode, Stuart did more than all the MSM combined in over 1 year.

      I've been saying for some time that Jon Stuart has been rattling his cage. His segment on Palestinian quest for self-determination aired last month and he had a couple of hard-hitting segments that were obvious push-back against the Iran war drums. Those were much quoted.

      Obviously, someones have taken the leash off a bit - carefully and gingerly. The news of UNESCO are old, yet the show has just aired (or did I miss it at the time?). I can't help but wonder how many other skits Jon has in his vault waiting for the green light? I mean Yahoo's periodic visits to the US to collect his dues are absolutely ripe for comedy.

    • Danaa March 18, 2012 at 2:07 pm

      Marcus, now the anti-semitism card is turned against some Jewish people too, especially if they dare to point out the obvious reasons for the power concentration. We are way beyond arguing that there is a meritocracy at work, because of the lack of merit among so many of the plutocrats. So if merit isn't it, what is it?

  • Palestinian and Palestine-solidarity activists issue critique and condemnation of Gilad Atzmon
    • Danaa March 17, 2012 at 5:18 pm

      Continuing comment:

      And the "numbers game" is where Atzmon comes in and his quest for focusing at least some conversation on questions of Jewish identity, ideology and even history. It is not what he says that is so threatening (despite the condemnation manifestos above). It's that the issues are raised at all, and once they are, the old fears creep in. Including the old question - what if the goys want to join in on the conversation? where will it all end? etc. But fear is good, I say. It can help train the mind on what's really at stake. And perhaps, just perhaps, the conversation itself will increase the "numbers' of the ones we need just a bit faster.

      I believe this is what's behind the libelious smearing of Gilad Atzmon, as evidenced in these shameful manifestos of excommunication. It is not that the legion of his detractors think that he is out to lunch on the issues he raises. Or whether he is right or wrong. Or that he might in some conceivable scenario hurt the palestinian solidarity movement any more than the other attempts to silence and/or split it up. It's that he is effective. Which means, he does bring the element of fear into the equation. And this is an element that many of the activists in the forefront are not ready to face yet, ie, that without wielding the fear of losing something there can be no hope of gaining victory.

      It is clear to me at least, that the time has come to show a different kind of courage. The ultimate one. I also happen to believe that without facing those fears, we will stand apart, and as we do we will all lose in the end - together.

    • Danaa March 17, 2012 at 5:06 pm

      Sean, your comment:

      "But I can’t shake the gut intuition that American Mideast policies won’t improve (and with that change, improve to relieve the plight of the Palestinians) until a critical mass of Jews reaches the same level of insight as Hostage and Shmuel".

      Is pretty much what I have been trying to say all along as well. There are simply not enough Jewish people who've either reached enlightenment or have at least begun to seriously question the dominant narrative to make a dent in the power structure. And enough so to take action to arrest , much less reverse the tragic unfolding course of events. Phil and others bring up the young Jewish people's growing estrangement from Israel as a zionist enterprise that would matter to them. But if they are young now, the great schism we are all waiting for is decades away, till their influence come into play, assuming the majority ever goes beyond mere apathy. And that's the crux of the matter - mere apathy towards Israel and/or their elders' unquestioning support of the zionist enterprise does not a movement makes.

      Sadly, the numbers are not there to make enough of a dent - if even 5% of the Jewish people rose up against AIPAC that might make a difference and shake things up a bit. Right now, I don't even see those 50,000-60,000, only, at best fewer than 10,000 every activist and writers/bloggers included. That's not enough to change anything. Were it enough we wouldn't have 29 ovations for the yahoo and a totally cowed US congress this year. Were it enough, Kucinic would not have lost his primary. Were it enough, we would see a heck of a lot more push back against the Iran war drums. But what push-back there is from the Jewish corner, it's not loud enough to make the front pages of the NYTs. I happen to believe that the single most significant corner comes from the jewish corner because that's where the push for bombs comes from.

      And if the numbers are not there now, how long do we need to wait and do the Palestinians have the luxury of waiting, those are the questions that concern some of us.

      I believe the Palestinians do not have the 10 years to wait till the push-back against The Lobby and the Jewish establishment becomes impossible to ignore. Heck, I am not sure they have 5 years. And if they don't have the luxury of time and the numbers needed increase too slowly, what solution is there? well, it so happens that there are some things that CAN be done. Influencing israel is a non starter but American jewish people can be shaken up a bit so the numbers of which I speak start increase faster. And how do you shake them up? with more pictures and testimonials of Israel's cruel acts? with more hand wringing over the decline of democracy in Israel? with more evidence of that country's decline into theocracy? with dire warnings about the consequences to America if israel keeps dragging it into ill-guided adventures that hurt the national interest? I doubt any of these, though laudable all, will be enough. What is needed in addition to all that is something that makes the Jewish people worry a bit more about losing some of their privilege gathered so painstakingly over the years. Yes, that's called fear-mongering, but for the average person (and I mean the average Jewish person) fear is a much stronger motivator than all the words of wisdom combined. Jews are no different in this regard than anyone else.

    • Danaa March 17, 2012 at 2:00 am

      Shmuel,

      So, are you advising me to follow in the footsteps of Nittai whose very next verse (Avot 1:7) admonishes to: "keep far from an evil neighbor and do not associate with the wicked; and do not abandon belief in retribution"? ** i.e., on the one hand, we should give everybody the benefit of a doubt, but on the other hand we must keep away from them evil ones, and even apply a good measure of retribution.

      So, here I stand, accused of naivete ascribing merit willy nilly, whereas the truly savvy would recognize the inherent evil that Atzmon brings and knows to seek retribution, as prescribed in the above articles of excommunication?

      But she who knows not her verses from vices would ask: but who is to judge what evil is? because it's not what it is that's the question, but the who that presume to part good from bad and hand us the verdict.
      ___
      ** now look what you made me google.....

    • Danaa March 16, 2012 at 12:57 pm

      Piotr,

      Schumer, Wesserman and many others were criticized here, and will be.

      They were but are the "shunned" as the boycott brigade is urging be done to Atzmon? are they villified for the traitorous atrocity-supporting quislings that they are?

      You are mentioning Abrams, and The Dersch. Others may mention Pam geller. But these are minor personalities, everyone's punch bag. The same with Pam Geller. Who is she? what's her influence? All of these individuals are mere red meat put out there in the water so the unwashed masses can chomp at the bits. No one is accused of "anti-semitism" for going after Dersch. But going after Debra dearest? she who was put in her position for no merit anyone of us can see other than to appease the tribe and bring in the dough from that corner?

      The trick is to go after the "nicer" guys that have official positions and even hold elected office.. Wasserman and Schumer are zionist shills and influence peddlers. But they have the proper PC attitude on birth control, so they get gently criticized - is that it?

      Where are the demonstrations? the fiery articles in the papers listing their myriad of anti-human rights positions? where is the picketing outside their offices? where are the cartoons depicting them hugging fascists like Yahoo to their bossom? where are the calls to tell them to get out to that beloved land of milk, honey and persecution ?

      After all, these are the people who are organizing carte blanche for whatever Israel is doing to the Palestinians. They are the ones who are "beyond the pale", not Atzmon, who is trying to point out their tribalism which allows them to collude with the wormy worlock Cantor. Oh, but they don't collude on gays, you say? and that's a "get out of jail" card?

    • Danaa March 16, 2012 at 2:30 am

      Mearsheimer did a brave and forthright thing endorsing Atzmon's book, because it was an interesting contribution to the discussion about how things got to the sorry place they are in. I hope the one thing that comes out of this runnish witch hunt is that more people will buy and read the book.

      I think I'll write him a Thank you note. he should know that there are thousands of us who admire his integrity.

    • Danaa March 16, 2012 at 2:20 am

      ToivoS, you can call for excluding Atzmon all you want. As long as you understand that you are excluding quite a few of us in the process. Perhaps, we'll just sit back and watch what you can do with your army of purists to stop the ongoing ethnic cleansing. And while we are on the subject, just exactly what successes have you logged lately to your oh-so-special solidarity account? how many water wells did you save? how many settlers did you convince to pack up and leave? have you had the slightest success persuading a single israeli to repent, or just stop sipping their latte for a second and smell the flowers of evil growing all around them?

      More importantly, can you point to a single congressional representative you have been able to bring back from their bought and paid for genocide endorsing agenda? and how will the denunciation of Atzmon help in turning Adelson et al into human beings?

      Sure, the palestinians need members of the tribe to be on their side, weird exclusionary, purifying rituals notwithstanding. What choice do they have? Just don't be surprised if you find yourself some day, standing at the head of a rag tag troupe of the purified - all 100 of them, wondering where the heck did Palestine disappear to, as you were busy expunging those whose truth you find inconvenient?

      Bottom line is way simple: israel will continue to do what it does as long as it has the full-throated support of the US. And the US will support whatever Israel does, however horrid their deeds, because our government, media and much of the national security apparatus are occupied by those oh-so-Jewish interest peddlers, who, for the most part don't mind at all if the Palestinians were to just up and disappear. And while the awful personages of Schumer and Debra Wasseman and Wexler and Goldberg and Krauthammer et al (and we can easily list a thousand) continue to push for and support ethnic cleansing (which they know very well is what's happening), you find time to go after one Atzmon, who simply pointed out that these are a bunch of toads (no disrespect to amphibians intended).

      Personally, I'd love to see all this energy put into denouncing Schumer, the great AIPAC's enforcer, or Wolf Blitzer, or Bloomberg, or Ackerman, or Yoffe, any other slime ball. But that would be too hard, wouldn't it? maybe even dangerous?

    • Danaa March 15, 2012 at 10:31 pm

      Keith, you put your finger in the belly of the jello. Good Marxist Goulash, indeed.

      I think, BTW, that this Marxist stuff is much more relevant to the Europeans, jews and philo-activists. Most Americans can't make heads or tails of it, as they really don't track much with Marx. What the Americans fear most is the wrath of The Dersch, the sourness of the Commentary, and the vitriol of Goldberg. The error of the solidarity camp in the US is that they fight with one hand tied behind their back, always looking over their shoulder. The error of the Europeans is that they are perpetually spooked by Karl in the rear view mirror, grinning with mirth. Don't know what the errors of the Australians are. Do they ever err?

    • Danaa March 15, 2012 at 10:18 pm

      Chu: "Was Avi banned or did he just move on?"

      I am pretty sure he wasn't banned. He may just be busy working and taking a break (like we all do sometimes?), and someone mentioned somewhere that Avi_G who may or may not be the same as the "old" Avi chose to remove himself. I miss him too, all the Avi-s, in fact. His was certainly an interesting and unique voice and we have way too few Israelis - ex or not - posting here, such as it is.

    • Danaa March 15, 2012 at 10:06 pm with 7 replies

      Shmuel, I am indeed guilty of running off with psychological/hysterical interpretations, but at least it's not just in Atzmon's case. Where I do see commonality with him is on the emotional plane where rage lives, and sometimes overshadows. You are right that I broke with almost all that I was brought up with, but there's still a quiet fury that goes with having had to excise my own history, even if most of the baggage was dumped along the way. You may also be right that Gilad didn't quite set aside his own baggage, and keeps lugging it everywhere he goes, but different people handle things differently, and not everyone can play merry butterfly. Hey, fact is he wrote a book and I didn't [yet]. And he has the wherewithal to put himself on the line, despite having no proper scholarly background to fall on. On a personal level I respect non-laziness and courage above all, right next to character. The first two are often obvious, the last takes time to figure out and it may never be possible to know with some people.

      In Atzmon's case , what he offers are opinions that he went some distance to formulate. He did so with some commitment and conviction, even if the research to back it all was not always as broad and deep as some would wish. The truthfullness of any opinion is always a moving target, all the more so with something as rich in detail and history and controversy as Jewish identity "wars", connection to zionism, and all that jazz. People could most certainly critique and debate Gilad's choice of the trifecta of Judaism, Jews, and "Jewish-ness". It does seem a bit simple, but almost any attempt to divide things to do with Jews is. For myself, I just wish he did not choose that last word to represent something that's close to some amalgamation of ideology, ethnicrentrism, culture, tribal heritage, religion and peoplehood. I wish he came up with a more neutral sounding term that has no "jewish" in it. That alone would have spared him much of the wrath he invites, since the word is not without history or connotations, so he ends up spending much energy on defining over and over what he means. I wish I had a better word to offer, but so far have come up empty. Be that as it may, what I disapprove of is this opprobrium that is directed his way, which seems strangely out of all proportion to whatever violations he may have committed (see also Keith's comments below).

      As to you and Samel and others maintaining that Atzmon is detrimental to the pro-Palestinian solidarity movement, I know and understand where you come from and what the real concerns are, but I beg to differ for both tactical and strategic reasons. These reasons have to do with my conception of where the real battle is at, and a gut level conviction that Atzmon has his uses, perhaps not alongside you all but as another battle front, that can run on parallel tracks. It doesn't hurt to have good activists/bad Gilad thing going and his way which strikes many as "under the belt" may pay dividends that are not easy to fathom now (yes, I always had those little Napoleonic fancies).

      What's bad is this excommunication/shunning bit. It makes the Dersch happy beyond words - just think about that. And it makes me, and quite a few others who are 100% on the side of the "good guys", very unhappy. Whether such state of unhappiness matters to anyone, I do not know, but suspect that perhaps it should.

    • Danaa March 15, 2012 at 1:18 am

      David:

      Do we as Americans have a special obligation to throw ourselves into stopping our own country’s military misadventures, which have cost far more lives over the past decade than Israel has caused since the beginning?.... Some of us might refrain from speaking out from fear of antagonizing our fellow Americans, just like you think Jews might do wrt Israel.

      The answer to your question is, of course, yes - Americans of sound mind and good will do have that obligation. Obviously, there are not enough of them since the bad stuff continues. However, I'll add that insofar as at least some American wars - like Iraq - had major agency from Israel and collusion from neocon friends in the US - those who find themselves sharing a Jewish heritage (if not identity or affinity) with neocons, have that much more of an obligation. And not just to speak out against the neocons in their midst but to also campaign forcefully against the nationalist entity of Israel that directed and inspired the actions of said neocons, not to mention those among their own established organizations who colluded through silence, right along with so many of their liberal bretherns. That last part is what has not been done, or at least not sufficiently.

      I see merit in Atzmon because he highlights not so much the shrillness of the zionists and the vicious arrogance of so many Israelis (he takes those for granted) but because he draws attention to the many many Jewish people who were and still are silent about the fact that Iraq was an atrocity encouraged, fomented and supported by way too many Jewish people, which includes just about all Israelis. It's not just about the fact that some Jewish-centric liberal publications (NYTs comes to mind) have never seen fit to apologize for urging and condoning the war criminals who were responsible for countless killings of Iraqis and destroying their country; it's that too many of the same so-called liberals - and the publications that represent their viewpoints - are keeping silent about the drums of war against Iran and the toxic Islamophobia coming from very Jewish corners. So, I ask - where's the forceful pushback against Israel from the Jewish quarters? wherefrom the shraying multitudes at the recent AIPAC? and just how many were there among the - Occupy Aipac fighters (more power to them)?

      My point all along has been that it's about numbers. The assembly of anti-israeli-apartheid activists is miniscule. Can they even fill up an auditorium of 1000? organize a march of 10K? where are the rest?

      Atzmon believes apparently that the "rest", those 99% of the Jewish community that are not out there holding Israel's feet to the fire, are hiding comfortably within their tribal cocoon. I think we all realize that were there 50,000 Jewish people united in action against what israel is doing (not to mention the calls for attacking Iran) it would make a difference. The fact that there may be 50,000 who keep quiet does not help. Israelis are not in the habit of parsing silences.

      I know we agree that Zionism has hijacked Judaism, and Israel has cowed the jewish people of America - powerful as some of them are. The trouble is, Jewish people - religious, cultural and everything in between - have not been able to break out from the the cell where their souls are being held hostage. Atzmon posits that this is because of the ties that bind (aka Jewish-ness). I await to see him proven wrong on that score.

      As for the insidious ways that Jews everywhere become complicit in whatever israel is doing, I'll quote Seanmcbride's comment from just above:

      The Israeli government and the Israel lobby have loudly and relentlessly hammered into the heads of the world — of *everyone* — that Israel is the official state of “the Jews” and of “the Jewish people” — all of them. But God forbid if any critic of Israel actually believes that claim.
      So who is to blame for creating all this confusion? For lumping all Jews into a single group? For synonymizing the entire Jewish tradition with Zionism? Are non-Jews and antisemites responsible for generating these toxic propaganda memes? Is Gilad Atzmon guilty of creating this mess? No. Which group on the planet is most responsible for enabling the policies and propaganda efforts of the Israeli government and the Israel lobby? The worldwide organized Jewish establishment — which is the official voice and representative of the worldwide Jewish community.

      back to your questions:

      regardless of how you feel personally about his philosophy, regardless of how he touches an inner chord, do you foresee any realistic possibility that he can be of assistance in bringing freedom and justice to Palestinians? I see him as a negative influence entirely.

      Unfortunately, for me it's a bit of the "Day After" already. I can't help it that I see the bad stuff up ahead. I wish I didn't, but there it is. I think Gilad is tormented by bad visions as well. So he is already in a "blame mode". And perhaps, to some extent so am I. The rest is just wordsmithing and his may not have been the most artful choices. That being said, I absolutely have no wish to discourage anyone who'd lend a hand to the Palestinian struggle, for it is a noble one. Indeed in the larger scheme of things, winning may not be as important as how well the battle was fought (I know this sounds better than it is in reality and I'm no better at losing than anyone else). I understand that you - and others - want it to be a "clean" fight. But sometimes, clean is the enemy of the effective, because it limits the number of fighters and can sap the spirits of one too many supporters. Gilad fights dirty, that's true. It may make many cringe. Maybe that's because, in his mind, he is already fighting the final battle, so has no use for niceties any longer, even as for others it is just the beginning - ever hopeful - as they array their forces . I happen to think that, given how powerful your real enemies are, purity may be a luxury already. Besides, excommunicating someone like Gilad gives way too much comfort to the bad guys. It also makes them believe in their own power to define the terms of the battle even more than they do already.

      ____
      PS I hate to disagree with you as well, but perhaps just as well we are not peas in a pod? for one, some differences may be inspiring (for excessive length, if not quite substance). For another, it got you to lose your no doubt best ever, very excellently reasoned prior post to me, the one that would have surely convinced me, once and for all (I may have had something to do with that little "loss"- connections with The Matrix and all). Sorry for that brilliant dissertation, now lost forever, but here I remain still unconvinced and unrepentant, for you to try again, some day.

    • Danaa March 14, 2012 at 8:56 pm

      Keith, sometimes you sure make sense...(OK, quite a few times).

      What you point out here is certainly true. There seems to be a cadre of British and American Jewish people, of the anti-zionist persuasion, that seem to be driven mad by Atzmon. Like you, I said before that his critique makes sense in an israeli context, where his label of "Jewish-ness" is self-evident. This is something that Atzmon came up with to define that elusive je ne sais quoi that Israelis, free of gentiles, are blessed by. Israel further extohls a trans-national, deeply tribal identity, reaching out to ALL Jews who qualify for citizenship by virtue of being from the tribe, and everyone who comes from there understands perfectly well what this means.

      May be way too many Jews outside israel don't want to process that Israel was built on a tribal identity, one defined, strangely enough by the same Nuremberg's Laws, once used to exclude, now turned to include even the most liberal or rabid of zionists. All aboard that dutifully celebrate the distinction from the gentile-type humans , as in "The Jewish State".

      Along comes Gilad who, chutzpah of chutzpahs, lumps the liberal, illiberal, neocon and anti-zionists under one tribal umbrella - right there in the company of their wayward Israeli cousins. The horror! What if the goys catch wind of that? why, it might make them reach for that long hidden protocol hidden in the attic! what if they really lump us into one (which of course Israel does daily to the deafening cheers of many American bretherns-in-arms).

    • Danaa March 14, 2012 at 6:29 pm with 7 replies

      Elliot, I am accusing the entire Jewish community everywhere, you and me included, and everyone who barely even thinks of themselves as "Jewish" or knows they are, right along with the many philo-semitic friends - good, not so good, whatever. And that includes even Gilad himself. The point is that I see very very bad things happening in the not too distant future in Israel and a serious all-out cover-up by zionist sympathizers abroad. My warning is about the tricky nature of culpability. Gilad's point is that we all are, in a way, culpable, even if to different degrees, on account of having certain "tribal" sympathies, or just familial sensitivities, even if only a tiny remnant of those are exercised. When the time comes, we will all be culpable because we did not do enough to dissociate ourselves from what's going on when we could, when there was still time. When we look back some day on these times, assumig we are around, it'll be clear that we did not, in fact, use every means at our disposal, often because of feelings of kinship, including to those closest to us, or even, just because we were not inclined to "rock the boats" too much.

      The culpability aspect goes to the heart of collective responsibility, and that's what makes [some] people so uncomfortable about what Gilad is trying to say (not always artfully, I admit). You, I, Phil, Adam and many many others may have done plenty (to our mind) to wash our hands off the criminal nature of Israel's actions. But have we really done enough in practice to avert the worst? have we really done all we could?

      And it's not like I don't understand what "all we could" means. So you tell me, do you feel you, personally, have and are really doing enough? is it not true that if, as I suspect, Israel is on a collision course with a crazy destiny of their own making (cf, for example, Yossi Gurvitz's post from the other day about the messianic cults taking over), isn't the time for talking reason over and the time for administering some meds begins? and what are those meds?

      The reason you may not see (or choose to) what I am saying is because the worst is not yet upon us, so "collective culpability" sounds like a silly game with "anti-semitic" overtones. But, for whatever reason, I see an oncoming train, carrying very little reason in its wake. And I believe Gilad sees it too, as does Yossi, and perhaps they and a few others know it's pointless to reason when madness is in the air. Maybe many are just busy trying to get out of the way. But if the "way" turns out to be a highway, it may not be as simple as all that. I only sound warnings. Kind of like Cassandra (and we know how much good it did her to be right, and I most certainly hope I'm wrong, or at least not totally right about everything).

    • Danaa March 14, 2012 at 4:38 pm with 28 replies

      This putting Gilad Atzmon in herem is utterly disgusting to me. It is very very reminiscent of the way Jewish authorities colluded with the christian establishment in Amsterdam to put Spinoza in herem.

      I would like to register my agreement with SeanMcbride who put up one of the more incisive comments here.

      The reasons for my disgust will be put forth in a longer post indue course. For now, let me just say that this "circling the wagons" is precisely the kind of dynamics that brought the left down, time and time again, at least in the West.

      I realize the Palestinian activists need the support of Jewish people, especially as they are the ones in clear and present danger of being "disappeared", and are in no position to fight against the enormous powers that bear down on them without some help, especially from the ones who live within the power or at least in its shadow. I also understand that many feel they have no choice but to bow to the "superior" understanding of the tribal gate keepers about what "anti-semitism" is and isn't. This is very much in tune with someone like MJ Rosenberg agreeing not to use "Israel Firster". People can be convinced that the battle is about something larger and it's not worth wasting energy on "skirmishes". Be they a proper label or an Atzmon.

      But as many people here understand and perceive on a gut level, argumentation aside, we are witnessing the worst of the worst of tribal politics perhaps for a good reason. I believe this may be so because many, if not most, know (in a way that is not quite "knowing") that the "great battle" is already lost.

      It occurred to me that perhaps what is really happening behind the scenes is a kind of mental preparation for the end game. Unfortunately, and heart-breakingly, the palestinians in Israel may already be doomed. It's not about one-state or two-state and hasn't been for a long time. It's about the zionists looking for ways of hiding the tracks of what they are doing and the worse they are about to do. Outside israel, for the good Jews of the world, who may well perceive somewhere in the outer reaches of their consciousness what is about to happen, it's about desperately trying to dissociate themselves and the ones they know and love from blame for the crimes unfolding.

      This may well be where the denounciation of Atzmon comes in. He keeps telling them all, even someone like Adam, or Max Blumenthal, that they have skin in the "game" and that no one is entirely innocent, not even him, or for that matter, me. maybe that's what no one wants to hear.

      Read these "dennounciations" for what they are. There is desperation between the lines, behind the thoughts. There is the despondency of the blame-game that's already upon us.

      But then again, just because the end is nigh, does not mean that action is pointless. Far from it - humanity is weighed and measured by the depth and breadth of action against evil. Not by whether the "good guys" win at the end. My chief concern is that our past, as it is taught to us wherever and whoever we are, is replete with instances where, in hindsight we realize the "good guys" would have had a better fighting chance, were they not so weighed down by purity tests of their own making.

  • Advice to Zionists from a fellow loser
    • Danaa March 10, 2012 at 2:04 pm with 3 replies

      I predict that one of these days, hijabs and even burqas will become a fashion statement. Just the other day, on a really bad hair day, I found my self wishing for a burqa so I could hide under as I interact with fellow humans as an anonymous everyperson. Something that has neither age, nor gender, nor any other groupings marker. And that, just for a short while, or at least till I get to the hairdresser.

      My favorite theory about the advent of burqa is that it was really invented by older women who were sick of the younger ones getting all the attention. It was then sold to the males as a modesty staple. And males, you know, they'll buy anything at the right time (whoops, gender bigotry alert - but look! goes both ways...).

      Then again, my "theories" are known the world over. so better take them with a few saltines.

  • Israel's lobby (updated)
  • Netanyahu gives genocidal bible story to Obama
    • Danaa March 9, 2012 at 7:05 pm with 1 replies

      Thanks Shmuel for the Agag angle. Got a good giggle out of me. Those darn Amalekites - they sure got around, didn't they?

      The Christians have an even better answer: all was redeemed later and made good thanks to christ (which leaves only one question - why is it all still so bad? At which point there's a sharp pivot straight to the second coming, when that which is still not good will be no longer. Gog and Magog finally get rid of Agag. Bingo, problem solved). Ain't humans clever?

      BTW, you are OK with water now, right (I mean, when in Rome, etc....)?

    • Danaa March 8, 2012 at 3:51 pm with 1 replies

      Now that I think of it, this must have been the second biblical instance of "Shuck and Awe". The first was Jericho (definitely the noisiest).

    • Danaa March 8, 2012 at 3:46 pm

      Obviously, Hophmi, you need to read your bible. What's the matter, now? megillah too long?

      Besides, what I recounted is the way things are (were) taught in Israel, your selected country of refuge from the wrath of the goyim. Purim there is celebrated partly as a tale of righteous vengeance upon the bad goys, complete with invectives against Haman et all. The vengeance could be god's or could just be plain old tribal hoopla (cf, if you are not religious but still quite clannish - ie, as most of the good people of israel).

      You can wish for that passage to go away all you want, but it's still there. Which is why mountains of commentaries were written about just that part. Your rationale is as follows (just summarizing):

      1. 75,000 is not really 75,000 - the bible always exaggerates numbers
      2. Haman must have been planning a kristalnacht, so he must have had allies. As to how many, well, see point #1.
      3. The passage is bad and can be used against the Jews, so let's hide it.
      4. The story is really about god coming to the rescue of his beloved jews. What the heck would god care for some goys caught in the lines of fire, so to speak?
      5. Invoke redemption (of the Jews only) - return to #4
      6. Why are only Jews expected to be pacifists? Why can't they be just as bloodthirsty as the next tribe over (thus proving Gilad Atzmon's point)?
      7. This was not really a massacre (watch your language, you bad goys and girls). It was more like a "war". Funny that no casualties among the jews are mentioned (to which Rabbi Pilpulix answers - just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean there weren't any - hey the bible is concise! you want the megillah to be longer still?).

      Well, I could get to 10, but am running out of time.

      How 'bout getting a bite of your hamantaschen to sweeten the taste, hophommie?

    • Danaa March 8, 2012 at 12:55 pm with 9 replies

      From David Plotz's Blogging the Bible:

      And then it turns very ugly, very fast. On the day Haman scheduled for the Jewish extermination, the 13th of Adar, Jews muster throughout the empire and attack their enemies. What's troubling is that the Jewish assault is not in self-defense. There is no indication that the Hamanites actually tried to attack them. Quite the contrary, as the last verse of Chapter 8 suggests, they seem to have been thoroughly cowed by Mordecai's new power. Rather, the Jews are taking vengeance on their already defeated enemy, killing more than 75,000 people in a one-day spasm. (One verse vaguely suggests it was not simply mass slaughter: The Jews "fought for their lives," indicating their enemy was armed. But given that the book doesn't report any Jewish casualties, it's pretty clear the fight was one-sided.)
      It gets worse. After the first day's killing, Ahasuerus comes to Esther and tells her that 500 people have been killed in Shushan alone. He asks her what she wants now. The bloodthirsty queen says it's not enough. The Jews of Shushan must be given a second day to kill. Moreover, she wants all of Haman's 10 sons impaled on stakes. The king says OK, and the massacre continues. The day after the murders, the Jews celebrate "with feasting and merrymaking," and Purim is declared a Jewish holiday for all time.

      I'm from a family of lax Jews, and I'm sure our Purim celebrations weren't quite up to code. Even so, I am shocked at the difference between the Purim story I heard in synagogue and the Purim story in the Bible. We certainly celebrated the death of Haman at synagogue, but I don't recall hearing about the orgy of violence that followed. The 75,000 killed, Esther's insistence on a second day of slaughter, the vindictive impaling of Haman's sons—all that was left out of the kid-friendly Purim story I was raised on. Those horrifying acts make Purim a much more ambiguous, and troubling, holiday.

      link to slate.com

      When we learned this story in Israel first, as young children, the "orgy of violence" as Plotz calls it, was glossed over, though there was much rejoicing at Haman and his ten children's demise. When the story was studied again, at a higher grade, what nuance there was, using the commentaries, addressed somewhat obliquely the issue of massacres perpetrated by Jews against Persians, most of whom would have to be presumed innocent of any wrong doing. Wrong place at the wrong time, kind of thing. The way the presumed innocence was addressed, for the most part, was through a counter-presumption of guilt. Thus, all of haman's sons were assumed guilty by association, as that was supposedly the custom of the day, ie., there could be no presumption of wanton killing only of warranted killing. One commentary I recall made much of the fact that there was no pillage. Killing yes, but the important part is that the property was left intact, though one must wonder who for. One thing I recall is that when I was very young (maybe 10 or so) I did ask how old were Haman's children. The teacher, with some annoyance, assured me they were all "adults". I asked how do we know? and he suggested that we move on. That, BTW, tended to be the response to most of my questions (and not just in bible class, which frankly, bore most of us to death)**.

      As an aside, since I was in the secular system, there were teachers who dismissed the difficult parts by stating that the story was likely a myth, so some exaggeration was to be expected.

      __
      ** Luckily for all, later, when older, suitable arrangements were made so that when I felt the urge to ask difficult questions, I could just excuse myself and go to the beach. Hence the many holes in my formal education...

    • Danaa March 8, 2012 at 12:13 pm with 1 replies

      If AIPAC is both Esther and Mordechai, are you suggesting, perchance, that when we glimpse The Dersch we be thinking new Esther?

      As for Mordechai, the self-serving ethno-sage, there are at least 10,000 candidates vying for the role.

  • How Tony Judt broke with exclusivist ideology
    • Danaa March 6, 2012 at 2:46 am with 2 replies

      The bridge leading away from Zionism for Jews and Israelis is still very Jewish, and will remain tribal.

      The bridge leading Jews away from zionism is a unicorn's rainbow. A mirage made in the image of peter pan, led by tinker bell. Your "bridge" is more like a gymnast's balance beam, crossed one at a time, strung over a precipice where dreams go to die. Unfortunately, Jewish people in the US - and numerous other countries - have made the golden calf called zionism an object of worship. So closely have they embraced their false god that they banished humanity in the process. Only a small number - an insignificant number - have so far dared to tip-toe across the balance beam, and many a brave person has fallen off and were lost.

      As for Israelis, there is no bridge, and not even a narrow beam. There is only a plank that dead ends in never-never land. That which cannot be imagined does not exist. And without a bridge, or even a plank, the possiblities narrow to a jumble of water slides, all with a one way down and no way up. A Sisipean fate.

      It seems to me that rejecting Zionism is much more effective when you can muster some empathy with Zionists, as human beings.

      Same as with facsists. I heard it said that Pol Pot was human too. Do you think empathy would have helped diminish the killing fields?

  • Responding to commenters on recent bannings
    • Danaa March 2, 2012 at 5:30 pm with 1 replies

      Walid - I agree with you here. Am on record as finding Witty's banning silly. Besides I owe him for a couple of especially florid missives he got out of me. I never forget an inspiration, and am willing to make the minimum effort it takes to skip over posts I don't care to rummage through. Also, like you I thoroughly miss James North's witty take-downs of the wit. I said before that I'll be all to glad to have Witty around to kick a little if that's what it takes to get Blankfort back. Alas, I believe it's the other way around: to get rid of Blankfort (the hefty pound of flesh demanded by the PTB) they (MW) had to throw in a semi-hefty counter-weight to make it look "balanced". The fact that we are not quite mollified is a testament to the obvious fact that the counter-weight was far from hefty enough. It takes 10 Witties to make one Blankfort (a number arrived at after painstaking computations involving 1000's of random per-mutations), so we are left thirsting.

  • Ten reasons why AIPAC is so dangerous
    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 11:53 pm

      OlegR: "do jews as a nation get the right of self determination."

      Are jews a nation? and which jews exactly - the not-quite's who jotted over from Russia too? the real jews (who are the Palestinians) included?

      can the Amish be a nation too? should we turn over Pennsylvania to the good Amishi people? actually, that kind of sounds interesting (especially if people get to keep their bicycles) - a whole state free of Walmarts! and iPhones! and cable TV! no FOX! no AIPAC!

      As for "self-determination" - you mean kind of like in Brooklin (at least the way it used to be)?

      "Yes or No?"

      Is that a question?

  • ADL enlists city of Oakland to block Atzmon event
    • Danaa March 2, 2012 at 4:13 am

      Shmuel:

      Are there any limits? At the risk of expanding the discussion, what about Israel Shamir, Paul Eisen, David Duke, Ernst Zundel? What about people who do not merely question the libel part of the blood libels, or affirm the fundamental truth of the Protocols while admitting that the actual document is a forgery, or use the epithet “Christkillers” rhetorically, but actually embrace such things as God’s own truth?

      And if Hitler or Stalin rose from their graves and marched for the Palestinians, should they be welcome?

      Com'on now - what's this reductio ad absurdio pilpulato we are doing here? have I even heard of Eisen before this thread? and who the heck is Zundel shmundel?

      The ultimate question: who is on the "welcoming" committee? is there one? is that what's important? if Shahak wants to march, let him march (I think you have little to worry about Duke though - he don't march much). Doesn't mean everyone has to have a platform everywhere with the mike in hand.

      The biggest problem the left has had (from time immemorial it seems) is this predilection to purity tests. Hey - goes back to the early Bolsheviks - Lenin and Trotsky had a little fight, and into the breech marches Stalin - ain't that dandy?

      I've learnt one thing from my daughter's coach, who kept exhorting - "don't worry about what the competition does, just concentrate on what you need to do!". Or, to use hyperbole (since that's what we seem to be doing here) - may be we should stop worrying so much about what the Dersh says and worry about what we need to do.

      As for purity tests - cross that bridge when you get to it (ie, send me a telegram when Duke show up for the weekly march at Sheik Jarrah and I'll figure something to do about it).

    • Danaa March 2, 2012 at 2:49 am with 3 replies

      More David Samel:

      This is about Palestinian freedom, justice and equality, and Atzmon hurts a lot more than he helps.

      No argument about what this is about. But I take an issue with your statement about Atzmon hurting the cause, because I think it is not up to any of us to draw red lines and decide who to keep in and who to exclude. Though it may seem like the noise of a multitude, the sad truth is that our numbers are small, and are not increasing nearly as fast as needed to make a big difference. Finkelstein has just denounced BDS as "hurtful" to the "movement", and you and Shmuel feel Atzmon is "hurtful". Others feel that discussions of one state are "hurtful" and still others believe overt criticism of the Israel-supporting Jewish community is "hurtful". By the time we are done excluding all these "hurtful" elements there'll be but a thin sprinkling of the "truly progressive" left standing. Kind of counter-productive, no?

      The ultimate test of a movement is its ability to sustain a sufficiently big tent. I am not suggesting that it behooves you, Shmuel or Donald or Adam to offer a hearty defense of Atzmon. But I am suggesting that you withhold the ire, at least till we have some substansive victories to point to (and I don't see much, as of yet, and it surely not because of Atzmon that AIPAC's numbers are even larger this year). If some of us like some of what Atzmon has to say, so be it.

      I happen to think that discussions of Jewish identity are essential to the fight against zionism and the persecution of the palestinians because Jewish identity was effectively hijacked to support - passively, if not actively - some very bad deeds committed and planned by Israel. I view such discussions as a necessary exercise in deconstructing just what it is that gives Israel such total cover to commit crimes against humanity as it is doing daily. Others may feel that giving much bandwidth to this type of discussions is beside the point and/or too divisive, and that we should concentrate on activism supporting the Palestinians' quest for dignity, justice and liberty. I see absolutely no reason we can't each carry on as we feel we must, without constantly second guessing how "the other side" might react to this, that or the other. As a tactic, I certainly doubt that throwing Atzmon to the wolves will buy you or Adam or any one of us any points.

      For an interpretation of what Atzmon's book is and isn't about, I offer the great Mearsheimer himself, cogently defending his blurb on the the book's cover against the pernicious charges of one, Jeffrey Goldberg, as it appeared on Walt's blog:

      link to walt.foreignpolicy.com

      A few excerpts:

      Finally, let me address the charge that Atzmon himself is an anti-Semite and a self-hating Jew. The implication of this accusation, of course, is that I must be an anti-Semite too (I can't be a self-hating Jew) because I agreed to blurb Atzmon's book. I do not believe that Atzmon is an anti-Semite, although that charge is thrown around so carelessly these days that it has regrettably lost much of its meaning. If one believes that anyone who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite, then Atzmon clearly fits in that category. But that definition is foolish -- no country is perfect or above criticism-and not worth taking seriously.
      The more important and interesting issue is whether Atzmon is a self-hating Jew. Here the answer is unequivocally yes. He openly describes himself in this way and he sees himself as part of a long dissident tradition that includes famous figures such as Marx and Spinoza. What is going on here?
      The key to understanding Atzmon is that he rejects the claim that Jews are the "Chosen People." His main target, as he makes clear at the start of the book, is not with Judaism per se or with people who "happen to be of Jewish origin." Rather, his problem is with "those who put their Jewish-ness over and above all of their other traits." ...In other words, Atzmon is a universalist who does not like the particularism that characterizes Zionism and which has a rich tradition among Jews and any number of other groups. He is the kind of person who intensely dislikes nationalism of any sort. Princeton professor Richard Falk captures this point nicely in his own blurb for the book, where he writes: "Atzmon has written an absorbing and moving account of his journey from hard-core Israeli nationalist to a de-Zionized patriot of humanity."

      Atzmon's basic point is that Jews often talk in universalistic terms, but many of them think and act in particularistic terms. One might say they talk like liberals but act like nationalists. Atzmon will have none of this, which is why he labels himself a self-hating Jew. He fervently believes that Jews are not the "Chosen People" and that they should not privilege their "Jewish-ness" over their other human traits. ...

      .... In effect, Atzmon is telling the story of how he wrestled with his own identity over time and what he thinks is wrong with how most Jews self-identify today. It is in this context that he discusses what he calls the "Holocaust religion," Zionism, and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Again, to be perfectly clear, he has no animus toward Judaism as a religion or with individuals who are Jewish by birth. Rather, his target is the tribalism that he believes is common to most Jews, and I might add, to most other peoples as well. Atzmon focuses on Jews for the obvious reason that he is Jewish and is trying to make sense of his own identity.

      In sum, Goldberg's charge that Atzman is a Holocaust denier or an apologist for Hitler is baseless. Nor is Atzmon an anti-Semite. He has controversial views for sure and he sometimes employs overly provocative language. But there is no question in my mind that he has written a fascinating book that, as I said in my blurb, "should be widely read by Jews and non-Jews alike." Regarding Goldberg's insinuation that I have any sympathy for Holocaust denial and am an anti-Semite, it is just another attempt in his longstanding effort to smear Steve Walt and me.

      A big part of Mearsheimer's defense against Goldberg is that none of the smears leveled against Atzmon are to be found in the book The wandering Who? but rather were statements taken out of context from Atzmon's blog. And those out of context statements form the essence of the more insidious accusations against him also here, on this blog .

    • Danaa March 2, 2012 at 1:55 am with 6 replies

      David:

      Is there any value in Atzmon’s writings? Probably, but the value is outweighed by his deliberate flirtation with rank bigotry. He singlehandedly legitimizes the antisemitism smear.

      I beg to differ on this very point. Just because some people posit as fact that Atzmon "flirts with bigotry", and just because some people are oversensitive to any critique that has but a smidgen of that mysterious "anti-semitic" scent, does not a stormy cloud make. It is perhaps to be expected that a belly-gazing quality attaches to those who treasure the precariousness of a group defined identity above that of their all too generic fragility as simple individual humans. Oh, so piercingly poignant in one case, and oh so drably common in the other. So yes, there will be those (best exemplified in the reverse towering person of Jeffrey Goldberg) who will seek and find in Atzmon a cudgel with which to strike at all these would-be "universalists" who dared to be as much as seen in the company of such. But I say that the Israel-firsters (good word there, right?) don't need an Atzmon to shut down the conversation about the persecution of the Palestinians. They have done quite well disappearing the critics of Israel's dastardly deeds and their own complicity in them long before Atzmon showed up on the scene. I suspect, that even without an Atzmon to wave frantically, around, why, the AIPAC crowd and sympathizers might figure that one David Samel, with his keen eye for dissecting the absurdity of their positions, might do just as well as a "legitimizer of anti-semitic smears". The only difference is that they might have to work a bit harder to find some Samel-Pearls that could be fashioned into poison darts.

      Actually, when it comes to the treatment metted out to Gilad Atzmon by some of the better not-so-zionists around, I think I see some parallels to what Spinoza had to endure at the hands of his own community. Yes, his philosophy was not only sacriligous to the rabbis of a congregation that has fled spain/portugal not long before. But his pronouncements on the place of religion in general caught the eyes of the Dutch who deemed them quite heretical to their own Christian sensibilities. Thus the decision was made to put Spinoza in herem not only because the Jewish power brokers found his views antithetical to their newly found, much treasured Judaism, but because they feared that it might draw the unwelcome attentions of the church going crowd around them and raise their so-far-latent anti-semitism. Nowadays we read about this period and we find the treatment of Spinoza - a towering intellect whose only crime was to live 100 years too early - to be despicable. No, Atzmon is no Spinoza, but putting him in herem because his views might give comfort to anti-semites, is just as contemptible. Personally, I expect that this is the verdict history will deliver, when the time comes.

      Which is why it behooves us - on the progressive side - to stop the frothing and thrashing about this one man. Let him say his piece in peace. Feel free to ignore, critique or take issue with his choice of words and expressed opinions. They are opinions after all, not facts of nature or mathematical theorems. A point of view does not a Law of Physics make. If we continue in this vein - splitting into factions that spit insults at each other over someone's choice of definitions (cf. "Jewish-ness") then those arrayed against us, far greater in numbers, wealth and power, will have achieved their aim. In the case of Gilad Atzmon, it may be better to agree to disagree, just as some of us do on BDS for example, in the interest of saving the greater ire for the greater enemy.

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 11:16 pm

      Woody, you may have misunderstood the intent in my sentence that you highlighted. Please see my reply to kamanja just above your post for a little clarification.

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 3:57 pm with 1 replies

      You be cookin' today Mooser. Must be all that fried Jazz.

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 3:47 pm with 1 replies

      Mooser: "An Israeli anti-Zionist will do his anti-Zionism like an Israeli, that’s what he knows and how he was brought up."

      Now there - you put your finger on it in one sentence better than I did in a 100 (and then some). Thanks - may I just quote you from here on so I can get to the next item more speedily?

      But oops, then there's this " Let’s just say I would expect an Israeli anti-Zionist to be just as honest and deep in his thought as an Israeli Zionist".

      Not fair! she says. Lumping all into one, now? care to make a couple of exceptions? only one? half of one?

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 2:51 pm

      Dan, sorry if it wasn't clear. Only the quoted part upfront is from Gilad (actually from the critical article Adam cited). The plaintive missive is all mine (you can tell from the multiple embedded parentheses and mixed-up syntax...)). And yes, I'm from Israel originally. Made aliyah to the great US of A, also known as Second Zion, some [quite a] while back.

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 1:32 pm with 1 replies

      itamar, what I would like to know is why you as a "pro=palestinian Jewish-Israeli" care so much about Atzmon, that you attribute blood-libel to him. Why not anyone else? It is a bit curious that people, on the one hand, discount everything Atzmon says as careless, non-scholarly anti-semitic generalizations, and on the other hand, take him seriously enough to go all bat-s*it crazy over a single artless sentence.

      There are many polemicists out there, including some Jewish ones who vehemently criticize Judaism, Jews, israelis etc., and no one here ever brings up their name.

      It is interesting that you are among the many who wandered in here on this occasions alone, brought in by the Atzmon stork. It is especially interesting that ones who are so "offended" by one or two things Gilad may have said, or could have said, fail to take offense at the numerous under the belt insidious pronouncements by the likes of Foxman of the defamation league. Somehow, Gilad offends the delicate sensibilities of certain so-called "pro-palestinian Jews" and on the other hand, outright defamation of individuals and groups as issued forth from the Defamation artists - often against other jews who dared to go "too far" in criticizing the anti-semitic AIPAC and friends, leave them indifferent.

      It is the over-reaction from certain quarters that make me suspect they all see something significant in Atzmon, out of all others. That makes the interesting question: what is it about Atzmon that drives you all crazy?

      BTW, Atzmon gave several interviews - in print and on the radio in Israel. Some didn't like what he had to say, some shook their heads, and most said, whatever. As far as the people of israel are concerned, by definition someone who left Israel is not going to say friendly things about it - or Jews in general. Overall, the reception he got in Israel was no better or worse than anyone else - including people like Burg or Avneri - who are known to be way on the left. As the saying goes - they don't like israel much or Jews in general - so what else is new?

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 12:53 pm

      salwa - thanks - that's one good quote. I'll put in my treasure chest.

    • Danaa February 29, 2012 at 12:48 pm

      kamanja: you are right, of course, in that the statement cannot be applied to all "Jews", and certainly not in that simplistic sense. But the preamble, I hope, made it clear that this was in the context of "Israeli Jews", and not just any of those, but the ones who went through the educational system from say, kindergarten, so they had very little resistance to whatever "programming" they were put through.

      That's the funny thing about the way people in that Hall of Mirrors called Israel contextualize themselves in the larger world: on the one hand they (meaning the secular ones) accept being "Jewish" though they may despise everything "Judaism" as religion represents. On the other hand they view themselves as Judeans, there to redeem the sad, pathetic history of the Jews in exile" (which is what to them are the Jews of, say, America). So when I use the deliberately over-simple sentence "we, Jews are so superior", I meant "we Israelis who are more or less Jewish, but really nothing like those other Jews who walk our beaches in their silly-looking Bermuda shorts". If you force them to think for a second, they may come with something like: well, the bermuda-shorts-wearing Jews may also be superior, but only relative to Bermuda-shorts-wearing goys, not, heaven forbid, relative to us, the speedo-wearing improved variety.

      Of course, if you press further for more detailed impressions, you'll get the ever-convenient "It's complicated".

      Gilad may have been trying to uncomplicate things at least for himself, but alas, sometimes he forgets the qualifiers, and mixes the metaphors some.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 10:39 pm

      These were reasonable statements from Gilad. Not perfectly artful, in places, but true enough.I especially like this (paraphrasing):

      "The Goyim...are actually Humanity". To consider them murderous at heart is to separate yourself from humanity.

      The corrolary is that Jews stand apart from the rest of humanity. Which does go to the heart of what "choseness" means.

      I would not however use the word Gilad chose "assimilate". Rather, I'd say something like "...it stops jews from joining humanity - as equals". Because that's the crux of the matter - if the Goyim be Guilty of murderous intentions, so are the Jews, as Israel proves, quite conclusively. Murderous intentions towards fellow humans is our inheritance as Homo Sapiens. But to know it, is to accept it. And to accept is to begin to undo the bad intentions, and arrest the damage in its tracks. And this is something Jews must do - whether Israelis or of the world - as much as anyone else.

      That is part of what joining with humanity means. Perhaps only my interpretation, but it seems to me Gilad was trying to say something along these lines.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 10:25 pm

      Sorry, it looks like the comment went up twice. Oh well, let that be my worst offense.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 10:23 pm with 16 replies

      Adam - from the cited article on Atzmon

      "Gilad Atzmon is one of a very small and unrepresentative group of writers who have argued (in agreement with many Zionists) that there is no meaningful distinction to be made between Jews in general and Israeli atrocities. According to Atzmon, the latter are simply a manifestation of Jews’ historic relationship to gentiles, an authentic expression of an essentially racist, immoral, and anti-human “Jewish ideology.”

      There is something here that I feel needs to be made clear. Gilad is from Israel. What you are taught in Israel is much as he says: "[Israel as] a manifestation of Jews’ historic relationship to gentiles, an authentic expression of an essentially racist, immoral, and anti-human Jewish ideology", minus perhaps the last two words**. The history we learnt in Israel was portrayed entirely from the Jewish viewpoint, the essence of which can be summed up as "all goys are anti-semitic at heart, and cannot be trusted. They resent us Jews because we are so superior". We learnt little that was not through the lens of persecution of the Jews, and what persecution there was was amplified a thousand times over through repetition and cultural references, all backed by the Holocaust as an exclamation mark. To learn about humanity through this lens is a kind of soul-killing distortion of the reality of Human history. It was - and is - akin to brain-washing of children - literally from infancy.

      I too went through this indoctrination process, and it worked well enough until one day, it didn't. And when I woke up, the anger over having been sold a bill of goods was, well, like that of anyone's who escaped from the clutches of a sect. And this you may not understand, Adam, being a nice American and all, who learned of the values of liberty and justice and the pursuit of happiness as your individual right. For you, to be Jewish did not feel like the death of free thought. there were elements of choice - and a softening of any of Judaism's messages, many of which were presented such that they seemed to resonate with American values, even reinforce them. But to me and to the millions who grew up in Israel, Judaim itself became a soul killer. What we, a secular people, took away from our education is that human solidarity is fundamentally suspect, because in the end - "they" are bound to rise and ask for our life. Why? because that's who and what "they" are - goys, forever the unchosen.

      The feeling of having - barely - escaped soul-crunching death is why Gilad resonates with me. It's not always the words he chooses to say it (some of which I'd definitely quibble with) but the rage behind the words - it is there, unmistakable, and I think I know where it comes from. I am subject to it often enough which cause me to go all intemperate (at least till I remember I am still a recovering zio-addict).

      This is where we, who grew up from very young age in Israel (and the age does matter) differ from Jewish people of the world. Many of whom take umbrage with being described as belonging to an "immoral, racist, anti-human ideology" (Gilad's words), perhaps understandably so. You have had your Tikun Olam. We had nothing of the sort. We did too see Israel as the inheritors of the Maccabbi warrior traditions which we were taught to admire. We did too despise the Arabs and Palestinians as a lower caste of humans. And, to make matters worse, we also learnt to hold in contempt our fellow Jews who happen to reside outside the Israeli bubble. They were diaspora jews. Yehudim galutim miskenim.

      On that last one, no Jewish person living in the UK or the US can possibly process just how deep the contempt is israelis feel towards them - the zionists and non-zionists alike. You won't see that on +972 or in Gorenberg's writing because they are, for the most part, Anglo acculturated.

      That aside, what I see when I hear of AIPACers supporting israeli atrocities are the screeches and the braying for blood from the old killing fields of Judea. I hear echoes of god's admonitions to Joshua to kill every living soul in the promised land. We learned that piece of beauty first when we were under 10 years of age. To be repeated twice over - in greater details - as we went through school. With nary a caveat or spiritual retreat. Just straight - like pure vodka served to babes.

      All I want now is for the good Jews of the world is to accept that not only have they have taken a poisonous viper to their chest, but that they were complicit in the effects this poison has and is having on their much prized habitats. That in the hope that they can go on to forge their own destinies intertwined with those very excellent habitats - the US included.

      ____
      ** for the record I really don't like expressions like "Jewish ideology". Way too imprecise, and way too open to misinterpretation. Plus, I don't think there's something like "A" Jewish Ideology. There are thousands of them, and most are not, by rights, what we'd call "ideologies". But I also understand the temptation to come up with a single descriptive expression. It's not one that's always easy to resist. I hope Gilad will learn to resist as he goes traveling through the valleys of the shadows, within and without.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 10:10 pm

      Adam - from the cited article on Atzmon

      "Gilad Atzmon is one of a very small and unrepresentative group of writers who have argued (in agreement with many Zionists) that there is no meaningful distinction to be made between Jews in general and Israeli atrocities. According to Atzmon, the latter are simply a manifestation of Jews’ historic relationship to gentiles, an authentic expression of an essentially racist, immoral, and anti-human “Jewish ideology.”

      There is something here that I feel needs to be made clear. Gilad is from Israel. What you are taught in Israel is much as he says: "[Israel as] a manifestation of Jews’ historic relationship to gentiles, an authentic expression of an essentially racist, immoral, and anti-human Jewish ideology", minus perhaps the last two words**. The history we learnt in Israel was portrayed entirely from the Jewish viewpoint, the essence of which can be summed up as "all goys are anti-semitic at heart, and cannot be trusted. They resent us Jews because, well, we are so superior, and because we, not they, were chosen". We learnt little that was not through the lens of persecution of the Jews, and what persecution there was was amplified a thousand times over through repetition and cultural references, all backed by the Holocaust as an exclamation mark. To learn about humanity through this lens is a kind of soul-killing distortion of the reality of Human history. It was - and is - akin to brain-washing of children - literally from infancy.

      I too went through this indoctrination process, and it worked well enough until one day, it didn't. And when I woke up, the anger over having been sold a bill of goods was, well, like that of anyone's who escaped from the clutches of a sect. And this you may not understand, Adam, being a nice American and all, who learned of the values of liberty and justice and the pursuit of happiness as your individual birthright. For you, to be Jewish did not feel like the death of free thought. there were elements of choice - and a softening of any of Judaism's messages, many of which were presented such that they seemed to resonate with American values, even reinforce them. But to me and to the millions who grew up in Israel, Judaism itself came to be seen as a soul killer. What we, as secular people, took away from our education, is that human solidarity is fundamentally suspect, because in the end - "they" are bound to rise and ask for your life. Why? becvause that's who and what "they" are - goys, forever the unchosen.

      The feeling of having - barely - escaped soul-crunching death is why Gilad resonates with me. It's not always the words he chooses to say it (some of which I'd definitely quibble with) but the rage behind the words - it is there, unmistakable, and I think I know where it comes from. I am subject to it often enough which cause me to go all intemperate (at least till I remember I am still a recovering zio-addict).

      This is where we, who grew up from very young age in Israel (and the age does matter) differ from Jewish people of the world. many of whom take umbrage with being described as belonging to an "immoral, racist, anti-human ideology" (Gilad's words), and perhaps understandably so. You have had your Tikun Olam. We had nothing of the sort. We did too see Israel as the inheritors of the Maccabbi warrior traditions which we were taught to admire. We did too despise the Arabs and Palestinians as a lower caste of humans. And, to make matters worse, we also learnt to hold in contempt our fellow Jews who happen to reside outside the Israeli bubble. They were diaspora jews. Yehudim galutim miskenim.

      On that last one, no Jewish person living in the UK or the US can possibly process just how deep the contempt is israelis feel towards them - the zionists and non-zionists alike. You won't see that on +972 or in Gorenberg's writing because they are, for the most part, Anglo acculturated. But what I see when I hear of AIPACers supporting israeli atrocities are the screeches and the braying for blood from the old killing fields of Judea. I hear echoes of god's admonitions to Joshua to kill every living soul in the promised land. We learned that piece of beauty first when we were under 10 years of age. To be repeated twice over - in greater details - as we went through school. With nary a caveat or spiritual retreat. Just straight - like pure vodka served to babes.

      All I want now is for the good Jews of the world is to accept that not only have they have taken a poisonous viper to their chest, but that they were complicit in the effects this poison has and is having on their much prized habitats. That in the hope that they can go on to forge their own destinies intertwined with those very excellent habitats - the US included.

      ____
      ** for the record I really don't like expressions like "Jewish ideology". Way too imprecise, and way too open to misinterpretation. Plus, I don't think there's something like "A" Jewish Ideology. There are thousands of them, and most are not, by rights, what we'd call "ideologies". But I also understand the temptation to come up with a single descriptive expression. It's not one that's always easy to resist. I hope Gilad will learn to resist as he goes traveling through the valleys of the shadows, within and without.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 7:32 pm with 47 replies

      Newclench - if you call Gilad an anti-semite please back it up. What if I were to say that it is you who is the real anti-semite, based on your commentary here, that insinuates and undermines common human values, showing jewish pewople in a very bad light. The name calling from the likes of you is really beyond the pale and should, by rights, be a banable offense.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 7:27 pm

      Ha! another American hater - carnas came in to share some creepy-crawly commentary. The comparison to the KKK is more apt for the AIPAC annual gathering where they gather every year to denounce humanitarianism and people who happen to be non kow towing Americans.

      AIPAC and its minions are the KKK equivalent. because they are racist to the core. It is unfortunate they - and their screeching supporters get a platform every year to which they summon American politicians and representatives so they can be whipped until they cry and profess undying love for the ethnocracy that is Israel.

      If there was justice and fortitude to administer it in the US, the AIPAC organizers and the organizations that support them would be facing judges and juries in courts houses across the land. The crime? - the ongoing attempt to destroy this country's laws, solidarity and shared values, while serving as the agent largely responsible for more than 4000 dead American soldiers, countless wounded and the humbling of the entire US military.

      I'd call that treason all right.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 7:18 pm

      Western sky - who is the holocaust denier? Dersh? the Defamation league? what the heck are you talking about?

      If you are calling people names, you should support your hate-speech with quotations. You won't find any because there isn't any from Gilad.

      It's anti-American values thugs like Foxman who despise liberal speech values and supports the thuggish theocracy of Israel - now hell bent on destroying Iran and murdering its people - that are the bad guys here. In fact, I believe Foxman's actions and words at times are just short of traitorous. I have never seen a thing from him that would show him to be a man of values. Other than tribal ones, that is. Such as those are.

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 7:05 pm

      On Mondoweiss, ethnic cleansing promoting, atrocity advocating, hasbara spewing humanoids like you are also OK. Well, not really, but you are still here despite a long string of hateful and hate promoting speech bites. Personally, I don't think you should be allowed this platform for your villainry-coddling attitudes, but then again, at least we can see and observe what hatefullness is like, through your posts, so perhaps it's a good teachable series of lessons in what soulessness looks like .

    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 6:55 pm

      hophmi, if you are against giving Gilad, who speaks for his own humanitarian concerns, a platform to address those concerns, then are you also against giving traitors like Dersch, Adelson, Jeffrey Goldberg and crazies like Cantor a platform? these are all deniars of Nakba, are pro-atrocities, are openly anti-American and are also seriously anti-semitic because they present jewish people in a very bad light.

      In fact, it's hard to understand why people like John Bolton, Feith, Cheney, Santorum and Gingrich are not sitting in jail somewhere for actively aiding and abetting more killing of American soldiers as ordered up by a Yahoo from a tin pot theocratic ethnocracy in the ME.

      You hophmi. know nothing about Gilad's writings, and can't hold a candle to this man's courage. By choice you represent the most xenophobic of tribal ethnic impulses. No wonder you take an issue with Gilad, who may have done quite a bit to expose the corruption and soul-crashing wagon circling, American democracy threatening, cabalistic war mongering world lobby, in all its mendacity and anti-human, blackmailing nefariousness.

      It is unfortunate that you care nothing about Americans, or for that matters humans who happen not to be not zealot Jews or Middle eastern Judeans who care nothing about the world outside their narrow enclave. You, as an individual, based on your comments on this blog, have done much to show many followers of Judaism to be members of a sect. A very dangerous one at that, with nuclear weapons aimed at just about every capital they can reach, and the ability to threaten global calamity, just because they want a little more land.

  • Hoenlein says irresponsible 'J Street' threatens Jewish unity (and survival)
    • Danaa February 28, 2012 at 3:56 am

      Beware, Shmuel, the Mooser is bloody bright, so fiercely fighting for his right to be utterly ordinary - identity or otherwise. I can hear you shift uneasily at the mention of such - ordinary, you say? surely you mean ornery? it's only a few consonants and one vowel away! But that much is worlds to some, if but a puff of letters to others.

      I think TR is on to us all (Leander too - you can't escape). Don't you just hate it?

      May be you should try to read Slezkine sometime - that is, if you can get through the first chapter without reaching for your last copy of Sartre's Nausea (it's there somewhere. I can almost see it. It is so not lost). The Bolshevik stuff alone is fascinating.

      My invitation of a special tour of American boogey-men stands. It's the best show in town. I am especially partial to Alaska. Many a Moose been grazin' there from time 'memorial. Much else to boogey 'bout too.

  • Video: Protesters are attacked at an 'Israel Alliance' event at U of New Mexico
    • Danaa February 27, 2012 at 4:12 am

      Regarding your residence, which you say is not Ashdod. So where is the place you refer to below?

      Quote: "Hamas fired at my town for 8 years until my government decided to do something about it. Do you think that Israel should have just sat quietly while Hamas bombed its cities??"

      Please name the town (hint: it's not Tel Aviv or Rehovot).

      Izik, if you are not anglo, then my horse has wings, and flies straight into the rainbow, just like unicorns do.

      As I never tire of telling people around here, the average israeli has very little confidence in their written English (vocabulary, you know - can't get that from Hollywood movies or school English). And you, Hasbara trainee that you are, you be a native English speaker. That being said, the Egyptian mother is a nice twist. Is this so you could get some Mizrahi AND Ashkenazi credentials?

      The father from Poland - OK, that's interesting. You know that there were very few Polish Jewish immigrants to Israel after 1950 or so, right? But, whatever.

      How about a more convincing background story? Not that I actually ask for any details since I already know enough, but, out of courtesy for the learned readership, can we get a better model? BTW, we had here a poster, eee was his name - you know him by any chance? he too claimed to be an Israeli - born and bred, who served in the IDF, etc. Alas, he has absconded somewhere - say Hi if you run across him (not that we miss him much).
      Alas, you also didn't get my original point, I fear. The cover story of support for 2ss on 1967 borders + left-wingism IS built into version 1.0. It's not working so well lately (Israel having indicated quite conclusively it's not really all that interested) - maybe you have a friend who could put you on the list to beta test the more advanced 2.0.1? that one comes with binational/Avram Burg version of the "solution" as a variation. Trouble is the system crashes a lot, even with the latest updates. But then - you can ask Cliff for help in rebooting. He has had some experience....

      So where's Avi when I need him?

    • Danaa February 26, 2012 at 5:12 pm

      Donald (plus Green) - the reason discussions here sometimes seem personal is because when it comes to something as egregious as The Lobby the personal IS political and vice versa.

      You have a Lobby that has taken over the US foreign policy - almost in its entirety. As annie said once (or twice) before, it is no longer possible to separate empire foreign policy from Lobby because the Lobby has embedded its people in every branch and at every level of the state department, the NSA, homeland security and, of course, congress. And through congress, The Lobby's influence is spilling into domestic policy, accelerated by the Citizen United decision (cf Addelson, Saban et al). For some people, seeing how the country's entire political apparatus has been subverted to appeal to one very narrow interest is highly disturbing - something they experience on a very personal level. Some (almost never Jewish) may even have friends, family in the US Armed Forces - those who are forced to fight Israel's misbegotten wars. Others have friends and family among muslim people and/or Palestinians. and for those facing persecution and death is kind of personal too.

      Israel is trying to get away with horrendous atrocities, in which I include the palanned ethnic cleansing (which has really not gone into high gear yet. They are just testing the waters). Thus far, this one country has done far worse than anything Syria is doing now, but look at all the "humanitarian" concern shown towards the latter. Look at the picture on the front page today - Phil's report from Hebron. Seems personal to the palestinian under the Israeli boot.

      The reason there's a battle going on about the "Israel First" label is because it is code, just not what some would have it. The opposite of "Israel First" is not "America First". It is "Human Rights First". When you cast it in these terms, it becomes more understandable why things get a bit personal. It's not just Palestinian rights that have been trampled by the zionist supporters in the US (ie, most of those AIPAC attendees, their friends in high and low places, and all the ones they bought and threatened into silence, including the ENTIRE US government). It's MY human rights that are threatened and every other person in the world who'd like to believe that liberty and justice for all actually means "all".

      Besides, just how personal can things get when the best and the brightests are banned from the discussions and those who question the banning are lumped into a "brigade"? (not my term, but I was, I believe included, and therefore have every right to take it personally).

    • Danaa February 26, 2012 at 1:46 pm

      Izik, your Hasbara 1.5 is a little stale. You do know they've release version 2.0, right?

      Well, I'll let Cliff do the deconstruction (thanks Cliff, keep challenging the operating system - you may yet force the PTB to issue a patch - an expensive one this time - it's not easy to rewrite the script with the 2ss pretension. The program still crashes when it's removed . Check out the Newclench sub-routine).

      Has anyone noticed how so many of our new oleh Hasbara volunteers just happen to live in Ashdod (OK, some live as far as Ashkelon) and/or just barely escape a suicide -bomber on their way to the yeshiva? Next, he'll supply us with the name, date and time of his birth at - why - a bona fide Israeli hospital - perhaps in Rehovot? Givataim?

      Hint to everyone: there are hardly any Anglos living in Ashdod. New olehs, failed olehs or soon to be oleh-yoreds (the newest variety). Just not done in bubble land.

    • Danaa February 25, 2012 at 10:08 pm

      Izik, did you realize you are on a web site that supports, for the most part, the resistance of Hezbollah against the Kossaks of Israel? didn't they kind of save Lebanon from colonization (OK, OK< I know the plans only went as far as the Litani, but who's to quibble?).

      And most of us see Hamas in context too, generally as the elected representatives of the Palestinians. Those arresting their representatives - well, that's the Judeans and their centurions. Any relations of yours, by any chance?

      As for Israel, I'd say the general attitude here is the same the subjugated Indians of Chile had towards the marauding conquistadors who swooped in from lands beyond, laying claim by virtue of subterfuge.

      Basically, we know what Israel is and what it stands for which is why there is general support for BDS in these quarters (and some of us, like me , support a complete boycott of anything from Israel that on top of complete sanctions on transactions of any kind).

      But towards individual Israelis, a healthy dose of suspicion is recommended, at least until we find they are human beings and have something like a heart rather than a piece of stone pretending to beat periodically.

      Now, please carry on. May I recommend David Green and Donald - our most civilized decorum practitioners?

    • Danaa February 25, 2012 at 2:30 pm

      "It may be clear to you and me, but what about those people who are trying to educate themselves about this issue".

      Back to the KKK analogy. Darwish's is hate speech couched as "exercise in education" for the good white people. The people who invited her to speak are the bigger problem, because education is clearly not what they were seeking. What the planners anof the event and the majority of attendees were after is affirmation of their own deeply held racist beliefs and confirmation of personal mantras that muslims/arabs are an inferior brand of humans and should be somehow gotten rid of.

      Those in the audience, the violence they exhibited, their bigotry and intolerance are exactly what one would expect of a KKK audience. Actually, I take that back - it's worse, because the KKK had to learn to be a bit careful where they stage their events. This one was in broad daylight, on a campus, attended by people who look to be "nice".

      The biggest problem we have with the horror that israel is becoming are their enablers in the US. It's very much as if the plantation owners ran the show again. These people - not so much the hate mongering speaker - but her crazied, well coiffed audience, that's where the problem is. I hope people everywhere will know to do many more of these protests and be brave enough to do it, to counter the hate peddlers lining up behind an ethnic cleansing enterprise.

      And why, right there, in DC in a little over a month, one will get to observe 1000's of them at the AIPAC conference, all braying for Iranian blood, and buckets of Palestinian life. Very few will be there who give a hoot about this country's inclusive values. Very few who put their own communities' and fellow citizens' interests ahead of their middle eastern conquistador cousins, there to appear in full armor, carrying apocalypse in their wake to whoever might be caught in the line of fire. The AIPAC mobs will be hooting and tooting for the yahoo who plans - in broad daylight - the demise and dispossession of over 2 million people.

      Ultimately, that's what people should bear in mind when they consider the pros and cons of intervention at KKK gatherings. Behind it all, behind AIPAC, and even alongside J Street and polite 2-state mirage peddlers, is a plan for solving the Palestinian "people problem". But David Green would have us, who are shocked to the farthest depths of our conscience, practice the virtue of "civility" and give a chance for the plantation owners to say their piece, even as they seek to demolish the homes and exile the slaves' sympathizers - whom they find a bit too "disruptive". After all, some of the colonist conquistadors are nice to gays. Why - they even brought a few ethiopian tokens to display as evidence of good deportment....

    • Danaa February 25, 2012 at 2:10 am

      But this is a special case - the speaker was not "pro-Israel" but anti-human rights, because she represented the point of view that Palestinians are barely human, if that.. It's OK to invite the Ku Klux Klan to speak but one should not be surprised if a some black students staged an open mike event.

      "Pro-Israel" is basically a code word nowadays for pro ethnic cleansing. However the speakers and the audience wish to couch that - this is the goal most Israelis support. They just haven't figured out yet how to do it fast enough without the world noticing. All the more reason to make sure everyone does notice who's who and what's what.

      The more I think of it, the more the analogy to the modern Ku Klux Klan holds. These days the KKK describe themselves "pr-white Americans, not anti-anything. Doesn't mean we think they really reformed, just took some lessons in PC speech.

      So, Donald, are you ready to welcome a KKK polite speaker to a campus next door? and should it be wrong to disrupt their racist speech if it was overtly directed against blacks and/or latinos?

    • Danaa February 24, 2012 at 4:15 pm with 17 replies

      Green: "And exactly why did this need to be demonstrated at this point in history?"

      Because the violence and insanity that characterize Israel is coming to America. This video may be the first of many such altercations to come. With much much worse to follow.

      Some of us see very clearly that whatever madness and poisonous spirits that took over israelis are infecting the entire political landscape in the US. Republicans, democrats, progressives, labor, occupy, the president, all of congress, the courts - you name it. Just look at the Bomb Iran maniac crowd. There is not even the tiniest benefit to the US from such travesty - the US can accomplish every one of its grandest imperial ambitions through diplomacy - faster and better than any bombing campaign. But the bomber madness is all the talk of the town, with hardly a rational thinker in sight. So who did that? and for what reason?

      It is truly unfortunate that zionism can make some otherwise smart people really really stupid.

  • Why young Palestinians chant the word 'thawra'
    • Danaa February 23, 2012 at 3:19 am with 3 replies

      Gamal, as Walid says.

      Indeed, Phil lives in the comfort of the privileged American Jew. He knows that a majority of his co-tribalists are guilty as sin in enabling the horrors of ethnic cleansing and indeed, there are many, possibly a majority of American Jews who honestly don't care very much about Arab lives. People like Slater say they care, but when you read him it is obvious that his statements of caring for Palestinians ring somewhat hollow. What he does care about are his fellow "Jews", including many of the truly evil ones found in both the US and Israel. And they ain't all neocons either. Some of them call themselves "progressives". Others join gangs with names like "Team Shalom", meaning peace to the jews - at whoever's expense it can be had.

      I honestly don't think Phil, as morally advanced and brave as he is, can bring himself to accept how deeply corrupt the spirits of the majority of self-identified Jews in this country is. Not just the abstract "establishment", but individuals - 100's of thousands of them - young, middle aged and old. Rich and not so rich.. Many of whom are found in Florida and LA - not on the rarefied intellectualized east Coast. It is not just a "phenomenon", but actual people, somebody's husband, sister, grandparent and uncle, and they deliberately turn away from the horrific evil perpetrated in their name. In their silence and deliberate ignorance they are complicit up to their neck. To accept this is very difficult, because it's that much harder to hang onto hope.

      It's not only that zionism is intertwined with racism of the deepest, most incorrigible kind. It's that it is a virulent disease that robs its victims of rationality, uprightness and character. It saps the spirit and makes people small, petty and thin skinned. And most unfortunately this malady is curable only if caught on time, and even then, the scars never completely heal.

  • Foreign nationals willingly gave passports to Mossad
    • Danaa February 22, 2012 at 1:06 pm with 2 replies

      Since the individuals willingly gave their passports - questions unasked - they can be held morally liable for any heinous act Israel commits in the meantime. THese are young people who claim "innocence". But here's one fall-out - we will now doubt whether any of the passport holders used in the Dubai murder were acquired surreptitiously, as was claimed. In fact, upon seeing this story I went back to the files and noticed that are several individuals whose passports were caught in the murderous act. At the time, we believed their stories that didn't know. Now, we can't be sure. Yet, their names were known and spread around (there were 7 names I found).

      Perhaps we can be safely assume that the passport owners were complicit in the murder, their disclaimers notewithstanding. The claims of innocence apear laughable now. The individuals who descended to Israel from UK and France made their home with fellow culprits, and for all we know approve of murder of anyone not Jewish on the say-so of the mossad.

      Maybe everyone who short-changes their own home country for that of the ethnic cleansers, torturers and killers of sheep, should be made to surrender their original passport. Or at least their name should be put on the no-fly list.

  • Israeli government sending 100 Israelis abroad to 'defend the state' during Israel Apartheid Week
    • Danaa February 21, 2012 at 5:50 am

      Has the look and feel of false flag. Notice the consistent discouraging tone? would a real BDS activist display this kind of droopiness?

      Use your judgement peoples. This site has more than its share of pretenders. Some are just better than others.

  • Hadad (mourning)
    • Danaa February 16, 2012 at 4:37 pm with 4 replies

      I keep trying to tell people about the poisonous vipers sprouting in that land, but it seems like few people - even the best meaning ones don't want to process that.

      And the comments you see are the tip of the iceberg. beneath sea level are the thoughts and opinions people don't express -except in the confines of their own brains and/or 4 walls.

      Just what do people think it means when you grow up with the quip "a good Arab is a dead Arab"? what do they think people like me mean when they mention a caste system being endemic to Eretz Israel?

      Even here, on Mondoweiss, I think people just don't want to believe some things. Unfortunately, the rank and file Israeli is not like the people you see on +972. Though if you look through comments there, there are glimpses of what else is out there. The crazy settler types and mad Russian right wingers are just expressing what many - way too many - think - and are perhaps still a bit ashamed to express aloud. But not for long will shame hold back the worst.

      I am so jaundiced about 2 state or 1 state, or any state because I know the absence of good will and I recognize what true lack of compassion can mean. Humans from time to time have come across great evil in their midst. And I believe we are about to witness another eruption of forces best kept underground. Unless it can somehow be arrested.

  • Norman Finkelstein slams the BDS movement calling it 'a cult'
    • Danaa February 17, 2012 at 2:40 pm

      Hostage - one correction to my original statement - cf the sentence you highlighted. BDS is not "the only" means. It is one of the more effective ones to deploy, principally because we can all participate in it and do it now, and to whatever extent we are comfortable with.

    • Danaa February 17, 2012 at 1:38 pm

      Hostage,

      I think I was trying to put together two different strands of thought, which are not in conflict, but not in tandem either. Its more of separate, but complemetary tracks, a "let's come from several directions" approach.

      I can't argue with anything you say about the ICC - and will support that model wholeheartedly. Just being able to present a case there is a huge triumph already, and you, in pushing this avenue are doing great service to us all (me too, because I am learning a lot). I was just being dubious of success because Israel has the means and the will to be ruthless towards any palestinian going that route. I wish there was a way for non-state actors who are not officials of PA - and therefore not subject to immediate persecution - to pursue a case. Maybe you know of one? may be it's time to be clever...

      BDS is another channel altogether and goes to the heart of a challenge to Israel's impunity. It does not address matters of legality, per se, but matters of morality in a universal context. Very much along the lines Shmuel put forth above. It is something anyone can do, and as such, helps in alleviating the sense of impotence in the face of raw power that many feel around the world, not just Palestinians. It does not preclude a legal, law-based approach which is where NF's arguments fall flat.

      Annie, thanks for the excerpt - very interesting. I need to digest. Maybe it'll help overcome my inner Cassandra - at least for a bit.

    • Danaa February 17, 2012 at 4:28 am with 12 replies

      Hostage: "Its time to mobilize support for Palestine to join the ICC and pursue criminal claims against the Israeli officials responsible for the settlements".

      No disagreement there - and more power to those who try this avenue. . Unfortunately, the minute the PA tried to do that Israel will move into high gear to divert and disable such a move, including cutting off reimbursements to the PA, arresting its leaders and putting the squeeze on every way they can - and they can do a lot becuase, well, they are the occupiers. The world will stand by - as always - impotent, just as it does now when power to Gaza was cut, Hamas members of parliament are arrested and a determined Palestinian prisoner is about to die from hunger.

      Respect for the law is nice, when all the parties have it - or at least some of it. Israel does not care and will do its utmost - through its all-powerful lobby - to make sure the US administration is boxed in, the EU is neutered, and other countries threatened into silence. What exactly did happen on the Security Council to prevent a majority? whatever happened there will happen that much more if palestine proceeds along the lines you advocate (which again, I have nothing but best wishes for).

      The threats that have been issued to the PA are the reason the scenario you describe hasn't happened yet. Certainly not because they did not want to pursue this course of action. Unfortunately, Palestinians do not have freedom of movement or decision and their person and property is forfeit, by definition. They are a conquered and subjugated people that Israel intends to first cow, then get rid of, the only uncertainty being the means employed in the "getting rid". Besides, since Israel is, little by little turning into a mafia-like state, their respect for law, especially international law, is much as Al Capone's was. A nuisance to be swatted or subverted. I believe that in any court of law, it takes two (at least) to tango. In the absence of respect for law or international opinion, all anyone can do is to "get" Israel on "technicalities", as was done with the Chicago mob.

      And that is one reason BDS is the one and only means to put pressure on israel. This is something we all can do, as individuals and as groups. Certainly nothing else has, or will work because israel intends to keep the West bank for itself - its only problem being what to do about the natives. Given that is the country's goal - as it has been for over 40 years, and is one supported by most of its people (forget those funky polls - devils be in details - ie, the code) - there is no way of bringing them back from the cold place to which they are heading.

      Problem the way I see it is that BDS is too mild in its censure, though I can understand why. We need to realize that almost all of Israel is complicit in the oppression of the Palestinians, whether actively or passively. It is therefore high time to move BDS to a higher gear and boycott as much of Israel proper as possible, not just settlement supported products. That means clamping down on business transactions for those who can, avoiding technical and educational exchanges for some, demonstrating in front of every sporting event where israelis participate for others, practicing cultural and academic boycotts whenever possible - as individuals - and members of institutions, and generally just avoiding contact, other than activism on behalf of the Palestinians and negotiations where relevant. This is what worked for South Africa, and is the only thing that will work to bring israelis to their senses.

      Having recommended this, I do unfortunately believe that it is already too late for the "bringing to senses" part. meaning we'll probably all get front row seats to watch the calamity that will transpire. But it must never be said we didn't try hard enough. You try it your way Hostage, I'll try mine, and - who knows? not all prophesies come true.

    • Danaa February 16, 2012 at 6:41 pm

      Pixel: "Danaa, are we talking full-on ethnic cleansing?".

      Short answer, yes.

      Longer answer: That is what Israelis want to do, and this is what they are trying to figure out just how, and when. By "Israelis" I mean the majority of the population, and much of its political and military leadership (the limited readership of +972, Haaretz and the few thousands human rights activists excepted, of course). I said several times before, if one were to listen to the tone, substance and not-so-hidden meanings of conversations among the average israeli - in Hebrew, not English - that's what one would hear. But one has to know how to pay attention, and in so doing accept the consequences of knowing.

      By "how" I mean - ways that would minimize repercussions. The suffering of palestinians is entirely immaterial in this equation, though most would rather it be minimized - for pragmatic reasons, if nothing else. Sounds harsh? it all happened before and many times over throughout the world. It's part of the colonialist experience, as I learnt from reading heroic tales of the conquistadors.

      See also my comment on the Hadad post.

      I guess what I keep trying to convey are my own impressions based on what I really hear, and most importantly, what I don't hear. In Israel people speak in code. which is not necessarily apparent to those who grew up outside, even if they were relatively young when they got there (say, teenagers). Larry Derfner and Bradley Burston don't get it, except in snippets, which they proceed to dismiss as mere "ill wind". Gorenbery doesn't get it because he hob-nobs with the well spoken and deeply thinking. Bernard Avishai half suspects but is very good at hiding what he knows from himself (smart that way). Very few American Jews get it because they don't want to know, even vaguely.

      There are many kinds of disturbing knowledge, and this is one of them. For me, what I know is in people's hearts - or rather - what isn't there - is not vague at all. For which knowledge there is a price to pay.

      Daniel - I don't get it either. Please amplify?

      The good news is that things may not happen as I fear, if enough people pay attention. Israelis are very much capable of being shamed into good behavior. They are no different than anyone else, in that regard.

    • Danaa February 15, 2012 at 5:17 pm with 2 replies

      Agree with Seafoid - and thanks for pointing that out.

      the demographics picture within israel is irrevocable. In fact, sometimes when I wonder what is the best punishment god could deliver to Ashkenazi arrogance for the sins of the founders and followers, I come up with the prescription that's taking place already.

      Nothing makes the seculars of israel angrier than the encroachment of the Orthodox. No amount of threats from the neighborhood, or risk to the money flow from the US comes near to the existential threat they face from fellow Jews, whom they despise.

      This is very difficult to explain to non-Israelis and American jews - from liberals to neocons fail to process the magnitude of the dilemma facing the state. The demographic "threat" has never been from the palestinians - Israelis are immune to that kind of "danger" - by the force of their arrogance.

      I once told a story here about my late brother in israel (peace be upon him), who leaned a bit to the right in his politics (only a bit!), but then said - in many iterations over the years - that he'd rather have Arafat on his worst hair (or keffiyah) day move next door to him, than a Haredi family - or even just an orthodox Mizrahi one. He'd then add that he'd personally lay carpets for Arafat's favorite guards and join Fatah himself if that's what it took to keep the dossim as far away from his children as possible (my brother leaned to slight exageration here and there. Not unlike favorite sister). Sorry for any insensitivity - delicate speech is not an israeli specialty. But the sentiments behind the indelicacies are true enough.

      In less than 10 years, we'll be arguing about an entirely different situation, IMO.

    • Danaa February 15, 2012 at 4:59 pm with 1 replies

      David, you the best.....

      I take lessons....give me a discount?

    • Danaa February 15, 2012 at 2:01 pm

      LeaNder. A bit obscure, I agree. Sometimes, when writing in hurry, bits of truth slip out, but not always clarity.

      The context: lately I've been wrestling with the concept of grace, which some say is what's missing from the OT (yes, I know those some are generations of Christians, especially of the protestant variety). In my wrestles (and tussles) I am probably guilty of teasing out meanings that are not there. But so far I have not come up with a better word for something that transcends both wrath and bravura without descending into stupefying navel gazing - that later being something that all too many people of the Jewish variety substitute for humility.

      In the israeli context: leaving a place does not always mean arriving at another. Sometimes it just means staying in limbo. Since growing up Israeli compromises the soul, it is not always possible to recover all the missing bits, even knowing what they are.

      It's not unlike the state of the freed slave. Freedom is something one has to process from the inside out, and, as Haiti demonstrates, it can take not one or two or three, but tens of generations. Unfortunately by the time freedom becomes immediate, so much damage has been done, that freedom becomes something that's beside the point. Haiti to me is what collective damage to the soul looks like.

      Dimadok, dahoit, Moses - that who could see the promised Israel but not step over threshold. The only question is what the promised land is. That is something everyone has to answer for themselves. I suspect you two have throughly different answers to that.

      As for me - from obscurity to grandiosity (or the other way around) - what's a little step between friends?

    • Danaa February 14, 2012 at 11:02 pm

      Hostage: "The Baltic States, East Timor, and Namibia were also graveyard dead. Try to remember that none of us here are prophets.".

      Sorry but this is where we must part ways. Israeli really is different not just from the countries you listed but from any other one. Palestine will not be like South Sudan or Bosnia because israel is neither Sudan nor Serbia, and as much as the one-staters wish, it is also not Ireland or South Africa. There is no model for Palestine becuase there is no model for Israel. There is a poison in that land that burns the soul. I know because I too am scratched and will probably never heal completely. If I could I probably wouldn't be here on MW (there are so many other problems I'd be delighted to get my teeth into on any given day). That I say this is not a result of deficiency in law or history or scholarship on my part (though all be true, alas). It's more like a side-effect of deprivation in the capacity for grace. May be the same condition that afflicted Moses and every other prophet. Consider yourself lucky to have escaped such afflictions.

    • Danaa February 14, 2012 at 10:40 pm

      jamiesw - so, when do you think people like Finkelstein will accept that which stares at them in the face: Israel will not agree to 2ss, has rejected it time and again, and has no intention of letting the palestinians have anything other than a couple of disconnected Batustans.

      People like Finkelstein, and probably Chomsky and most of J Street are there to help pull the wool over the world's eyes for as long as possible. It is, admittedly getting harder, when news get out that the number odf settlers reached 750,000. Very soon, a fourth of israel's Jewish population will live in the territories. day and night homes are demolished, property of Palestinians are confiscated, children thrown into jail, demonstrations brutally suppressed.

      I submit to you that Finkelstein does not know Israelis as I do and as Ilan Pappe and Avnery do. The Jewish Americans and Canadians see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. They take the actions they think might help stave the worst but they help very little on the broader scale. The activists and liberal zionists speak to others like themselves in Israel, and so get a very skewed vision of what the people there talk about and think about when international ears are perked somewhere else.

      Inside Israel everyone knows what it's really all about and what is about to happen next. They just didn't figure out yet how to get away with what the plan is, and are still seeking a way to do just that. Abunimah and the Palestinians know all too well what fate has been prepared for them. I suggest you and Finkelstein listen, because everything you know and believe in will pale next to what you will be expected to defend next.

      Personally, I wish BDS went into a maximalist mode already and committed to boycotting anything one can that comes from Israel and every single Jewish institution, speaker, university president, politician and synagog that supports and defends the indefensible. And yes, I know for a fact that such a movement will have the intended effect on the israeli psyche though it is a bit of shock treatment. But sometimes it's the only thing that can help snap the insane back into reality. I honestly can't think of much else that would allay the looming disaster.

  • New book explores the history of 'New Jewish Agenda'
    • Danaa February 15, 2012 at 12:52 am with 4 replies

      American - you got it alright. Weirdness is indeed the essence of it all. But whoops, that could be essentialism, no?

      Speaking of witch, where's Mooser? on a talk-about somewhere?

  • The Israel Lobby on campus in Illinois: A challenge for BDS
    • Danaa February 12, 2012 at 3:16 pm with 12 replies

      Nevada, Annie - here's a slightly different overview on The Lobby vs The Empire conundrum:

      If The Lobby, which is really The Israel Lobby. was there to support the interests of some normal country somewhere in the ME, that would be one thing. And we could indeed argue and debate things like collusions of interests and "strategic" or even just tactical alliances. But Israel is not a normal country and has not been on a "normal" course for quite some time now (and maybe from the beginning). Israel has been moving rightward, at an ever accelerating pace, and as it has, The Lobby moved with it. At this point, Israeli Likudist agenda has moved so far to the right that it can find a true home only among the neocons and the Christian zionists (the latter thanks to them being truly low information citizens - by choice). That means that The Lobby opened a gap not only with the liberal left in America - where most Jewish people are to be found, but with mainstream America, which shuns extremism for the most part.

      That last one may not yet be obvious to all, hence the Lobby's efforts to pull the wool over as many eyes as it can. This is, however, quite obvious to many who take interest in foreign policy, who cannot but notice that The Lobby has been steadily opening a gap with the American version of imperialism. Given that the American imperialist model is one which would - under normal circumstances - prefer to exercise pragmatic "soft" control, rather than overt conquest and meddling in other countries affairs. To wit, the Iraq war - which was entirely unnecessary - if control over oil was the main agenda. And now the sword rattling against Iran, again, quite unnecessary, given the many opportunities for alignment of interests between America and Iran, which could have been carried out through any number of channels. Those alignments could also well wrap Israel's interests into the mix, were israel a "normal" country. But it is not, so the whole world is moving towards ever crazier scenarios, because the crazy has a way of winning over the sensible.

      So IMO, while the arguments over "strategic" alliances may have once had merit, this line of rational analysis thought has fallen victim to the forces of irrationality that have - and are continuing - to take over Israel itself. That country is standing on the precipice of theocratic fascism, something that the world has not seen much of, at least not on the scale it is about to evolve into. That's why, IMO, the arguments of Lobby vs Imperialism have been taking on such a toxic flavor. The fans of rational pragmatic analysis find it difficult to argue their case when standing at the edge of a cesspool of irrationality, so they sometimes wish it away, taking refuge in side-tracks about things fungible and otherwise. OTOH, the ones who see the cesspool all too clearly, are too busy fighting the malodorous bad vapors. Unsurprisingly, many in this camp have lost patience with a the seemingly "cool-headed" line of argumentation over policies and national interests that is about to sink - hook, line and sinker, into the pit.

      What I see, over and over again is that certain individuals, who are otherwise quite cogent, cannot bring themselves to deal with the fact that an irrational element has been working overtime to negate their finest points of argument.

  • Musings on Post-Apartheid Israel
    • Danaa February 10, 2012 at 6:35 pm

      I think this article by Sylvia is a good start, though I may quibble with some of the demographic statistics quoted. Like the 22% ashkenazi; there are currently over 15% Haredi alone in Israel, the majority of which are, in fact, Ashkenazi in origin; the rest cannot possibly be only 7% unless one discounts the Russians and a few other groups. So in the interest of precision, the statistics cited needs to be modified with caveats.

      I share Sylvia's pessimism as indeed there's no post-colonial model that includes a devout religious element as is the case in Israel. The Haredi alone are estimated to reach 25% in as little as decade (In the primary schools in Israel, a majority is already part of the religious system, whether state, orthodox or ultra-orthodox). She did not touch much on what that means since the Jewish orthodox and ultra-orthodox are, in fact, one of the most intolerant religious populations to be found anywhere in the world. Yes, we all know about the haredi, but rarely do we hear about the deeply intolerant and bigoted attitudes towards non-Jews that are held by even the "mere" orthodox (in which I encompass most Mizrahi), or, for that matter, the "merely" observant. The form this intolerance takes is, unfortunately, endemic to Middle-Eastern versionof Judaism (which is why I - and others - sometimes prefer to refer to it as "Judeanism"). The type of bigotry of which I speak (which uis shared by all too many of the secular) fundamentally regards Arabs as inferior, not because of skin color or ethnicity or religion, but simply because they are not Jewish. No amount of education or secularization can make them "Jewish". To most Israelis, Arabs (even post colonialism) will at best be seen as a modern version of Midianites - a lower caste of humans, well suited to certain types of labor. Perhaps some may be "tolerated" when they rise above the assigned station, but not as part of a social melting pot.

      As Sylvia says, this sounds Jim Crow like (again, in a hypothetical post-colonial world), except that, IMO, it'll unfortunately be closer to the Indian caste system, whence the original dwellers of the land were relegated to the ranks of "untouchables".

      So, does it mean the "one-state" is hopeless? well, not really because there will be so many other factors that will have to enter for such a situation to prevail that we can't possibly envision what it might look like.

      As one little example, I believe that as israel slides towards theocracy (which it will, most assuredly), the number of the seculars who will leave israel will rise, linearly first 9as it is now), then quadratically. I think I know a little about what it's like to be among the secular Ashkenazi in Israel, and I doubt the good denizens of the "globalized, multi-cultural" Tel Aviv will put up with increasingly significant religious excursions into their midst. I predict that the ultra-secular will gang together - and will even try mightily to get over that little "distaste" - to reach out to the secular palestinians, in a desperate effort to beef up their shrinking relative numbers. But as the realization dawns that all they can hope for are ever decreasing enclaves of "liberalism" (Israel version thereof), more and more will start looking outside the country. First, the younger technocrats (who are already escaping by simply not returning), and then the not so young, then the relatives. This trend alone will greatly affect the israel that will be left behind, as well as the levels of support Israel will continue to command from world Jewry. It will also affect israel economically and it's hard to not conjure up some rather unappealing scenarios of how that will all play out.

      I will not try to speculate on the palestinian side of this multi-variate equation, since I am not sure where to even begin, given what I think (fear) is likely to happen long before we get to any "one state". My concern at the moment is how to best stand with them and how to counter some of those dire scenarios I see coming. I do, however, wish I could see through to some decent outcomes and am deeply troubled by the fact that I can't. Maybe someone else knows better how to see through the fog and can unravel a potentially positive outlook for us. Like the author of this post, it doesn't seem I can, at least not yet.

  • A lull on this site
    • Danaa February 20, 2012 at 2:00 am

      Donald, if you accuse American, you should have accused me too (among other worthies). I may not do nuke talk or bomb-bomb talk usually, but I did, if memory serves me right, wonder aloud why isn't there a call to sanction Israel and embargo its exports, given that it does far worse things than Iran. I might have, facetiously of course, wondered why drones to affect regime change are OK for Libya and not Israel (again, given that israel uses drones constantly to murder Gazans). Doesn't mean I would be calling for such action, only that I use "what's good for the goose, etc." argument. That's how we all argue here, and that has nothing to do with ghetto mentality, of which we stand accused, per you. A ghetto is a notch above a "cult", right?

      BTW,when someone issues a lone call for all-out BDS of israel, and let the chips fall where they may, doesn't mean it'll happen, or is what should happen, only that fair is fair. Iran is a theocracy now, but israel is headed that way, and then some. Maybe a little embargo can nip the process in the bud? surely lots of israelis would be all too glad to take the bitter pill, if only they thought it'd work.

      All these lines of debate were precipitated by Slater's nonsensical "Just a War" post. Went down like a ton of bricks, that. And for good reason. Fair minded and right-thinking people looked around and noticed that there may indeed be one country that could deserve the harsh penalties Slater advocated, and that was israel. And still, he went on with his case, the essence of which was, that he knew what "Just" meant, because well, he had suitable academic credentials and good language skills (if not fortitude for debates).

      So, why did you single out American and not me, for example? I can be bad too, especially when it comes to failing to properly articulate my points, and would like to be acknowledged for such.

      You should have known better before accusing people of calling for nuke this or nuke that. That kind of talk is heard really in only one place, and that is - why - yes, you guessed right - in israel again (and there by a rather small minority of the semi-insane, the kind who celebrate the death of children, killed in a bus accident). Last I saw, for the most part, the worst anyone has done here is to call for cutting off military aid to Israel and putting their war criminals on trial at the Hague. (OK, there were some calling for all out sanctions + embargo, but hey - everyone has the right to try and push something through the UN !).

      As well, I couldn't help but notice your non-apology to American. You should raise it up a rung, me thinks. How about a full all out?

    • Danaa February 19, 2012 at 3:40 pm

      TR - that's one heck of a comment. In light of the discussion above, I'm glad to see that MW allows through such a good example of an analysis that can be no less true for being controversial. I can only hope people take note of this before we all run for the doors.

      MRW- I think this one was for you. How long will you resist?

    • Danaa February 18, 2012 at 5:43 pm

      Shmuel "This might, for example, include an essentialist-determinist approach to Zionism (Jews are like that and have always been like that), or the extension of the struggle for Palestine to a struggle against “Zionist” world domination, for reasons unrelated to Palestine."

      Just a quick comment on the fly. I'll table the first sentence for now (but reserve the right to resurrect at a time of my choosing - because I know I'll have to bring in the dreaded GA). With regard to the second sentence I just want to note something I've been meaning to for some time.

      Oh yes, LeanDer - the rant below it's for you too (it is a rant too*, I'll let my betters deliver the more erudite and temperate commentary).

      There is a difference between those who view the situation when in Europe (or elsewhere else in the world) and the ones in the US. I often thought that people in Europe - or even Israel - may not realize what it's like to turn on to any news channel or open any of the newspapers of record, and see almost wall-to-wall commentary by people of Jewish background andor the approved and vetted philosemite. Whether it's a round table or pundit-de-jour, or just a guest on a talk show. It's unmistakable and unavoidable. Sure all Jewish people commntators and writers do not concern themselves with israel in particular, and they certainly do not all concern themselves with the same issues or come from the same place, but when you have a foreign policy round table on e.g., PBS and out of 4 guests, three are Jewish, that is noticeable. Just as it is noticeable that the NYT has 1 to 3 Jewish themed articles every day, with nary a nod to eg, plain old christians, or, heaven forbid, anything that might be of interest to Asians (it's been months since the Tiger Mom was everywhere, and she too was married to a rather well known and well connected Jewish academic person). yet Asians are ubiquitous in the North east and are dominant ethnic group on parts of the West Coast. But everywhere you lokk, there's not a Chinese-American commenting anywhere and very few Indian-Americans - a truly disappeared group. Which is peculiar when many of us work with them every day (technology in the US has pretty much gone Asian, across the board. But do they get to speak much about it? other than our token SoE Chu, that is).

      Making matters worth, this is election season, which means open season on anything muslim and/or Arab. If you had to be subjected to what we are - with our inane infotainment channels - you may view things a bit differently.

      And that before we even get to the issue of israel. How can we believe anything someone says about Syria or Iran when they are either, a known neocon, or a cowed democrat who may, in all likelihood be Jewish, or be funded/awe his position to Jewish themed think tank? do you get commenters from WINEP all the time? The heritage club? can you imagine what it's like to listen to such distorting and slanting of the day's news and opinions all going in one direction (with the hidden theme/sub-text is it good for the Jews? or the more sophisticated version - is it REALLY good for the Jews?). To make matters worse, these themes are then promulgated and regurgitated by a bimbo-de-jour look-alike (who may or may not be a real bimbo, except they are not really allowed to deviate from a script so it sounds like the Rah-Rah of cheerleaders delivered by a cheerleader look-alike. And yes, they all tend to look kind of the same, and sound like it too**).

      This I say, in case you wonder why we celebrate every minute deviation from the script - a comment by the excellent Christopher Hays or guest (early, early AM), or a throw-away comment by John Stewart. I know that in Italy they had the Berlusconi media, but in the US, we don't even have a Berlusconi to throw rotten eggs at. There is no one particular agency or individual to denounce or tar and feather. Because it's everywhere and it's everyone.

      You can laugh all you want about the tendency to see hints of the protocols but we, who are on this continent, get our news so distorted, so zionist paradigm subservient, that it's hard not to conclude that our entire media has been taken over and used to disseminate one point of view and one actor. Not only that but that means that it is almost.

      rant over. Now let the well termperate ones chime in.

      ___
      * It's all Samel's fault for refusing to give me discount on lessons in well-expressed temperance, that stays on topic.
      **I can say bimbo because I am the right gender. Don't anyone even think of quoting unless correctly chromosomed.

    • Danaa February 17, 2012 at 3:33 pm

      Shmuel "Where I disagree is with your assumption that there was necessarily pressure from on high, or that it is part of an attempt to somehow neutralise MW. "

      Thanks for the prompt reply. Just a quick aside to wet the appetite - could it be I know a little more than meets the eye? always a possibility, isn't it?

      Come on over to the great US of A and we'll go on a boogey men hunt (it's like a treasure hunt - there they are and they they aren't. And when you find one, it's a keeper). May not need to go far, but farther is funner (hint for the hunt: no boogey men hiding in Grand Canyon, sorry. And I hate Las Vegas, where they boogey to a different tune, so that's out. Still leaves 48 states, don't it?). All that I will trade for more pictures of colliseum under blankets of snow and sleet.

    • Danaa February 17, 2012 at 2:27 pm

      Shmuel, it's not just MRW or Taxi or Dan Crowther. It's the chill that will descend on the site as a whole - something that cannot be measured or assessed ahead of time.

      To me, the issue revolves around solidarity. We either have it in our small camp or we don't. A site that cannot live with someone of Jeffrey's experience, passion, insight and writing caliber. because of occasional diversion into some or other territory, cannot make claims for inclusivity. It will be less effective in calling for action because there are too many boundaries being drawn. Jeffrey's voice is one of the few that has been clear, consistent, unyielding and just. If he at times chooses to bring up topics that are uncomfortable for some, that's a small prices to pay. They don't have to join in the discussion.

      I realize that Jeffrey may have been the sacrificial lamb to throw into the rink. I expected something like this, Just as I expect Phil to get a wonderful offer anytime soon that will take him away from this place and leave it as another aggregator of Bad News Bear. That is the goal. The PTB (Powers-that-be) know all too well that precipitating food fights among the faithful is the surest way to lessen the sting of their critiques. How big a pound of flesh they extract is a measure of the site's effectiveness. Given what Jeff was and is, MW was getting quite effective.

      As another comment, when DailyKos instituted draconian comment policies I lost all interest and basically never read it any longer. The same with the Guardian which I used to read every day and now visit only for something specific. Same with Haaretz, which has taken a serious turn into the land of the bland. Something similar will be true for me with MW. Without a riveting comment section - divisive or not - a site can lose vitality - which, again, is not something that can be measured.

      I will still read MW and occasionally contribute but without a few good people around to inspire new insights and provide historical context, my involvement too will likely shrink.

      That, mind you, is precisely the purpose of those who asked for Blankfort's head, including, no doubt, the very nasty and petty Slater, for whom I lost all respect, following his pathetic "Just a War" nonsense. They - the PTBs and followers, are reading this thread and fulminating with glee, as we speak. I think you, and others who take issue with divisiveness and distraction may want to take agood look around and see the vultures circling. They are right now zeroing in with utter mirth on the the NF fracas - the new Goldstone moment.

      Divide and rule has always been the Achiles heel of the left or anyone who challenges the PTB. Our only defense is solidarity that rises above petty squabbles over one point in history or one turn of phrase. Most of us have been able to rise above our differences and occasional tiffies, and that, by itself is inspiring.

      So you tell me now - how will BDS be successful when the likes of NF take a whack at it?

    • Danaa February 16, 2012 at 2:05 pm

      MRW, far from GB be you to me like to most of us here. I - along with many - appreciate - and then some - your many good posts, links and contributions - tirelessly disseminated (now don't melt, OK?).

      Just as Dan and Taxi and everyone above said, it's the very variety of voices and the freedom to express them, that made the site so special. Unlike most other comment sections on the nets, this one did not have that musty ambiance that settles in when everyone keeps going around in circles, largely over the same tired points, seemingly engaged in pointless competition over navel gazing sophistry (there's pilpul for ya). What's a Jew to do? sums up most of the commentary to be found appended to many a site ostensibly dedicated to "peace in our time".

      So what's the new MW to be? are all Beinarts now? Woody Allens? plaintive Portnoys? maybe some of us are not that and neither wish to be?

      Many a time did Phil speak about the vitality and freshness that the new forms of interactive journalism bring to the old masses, grown tired of being lectured to from every lantern perched self-enamored journo. Without robust commentary, all we'll have is the same old "journalism" and opinionated muck-cracking, delivered by a few, appreciated by few, ignored by most who have more important things to do than listen to the same nuggets, urged to ignore the maggots within and without. Listening much, commenting little and engaging in even less is what got us all here in the first place - to the precipice of an apocalypse.

      Dan is right - it's time to raise our voices rather than be too quick to take our marbles and go home. I, in particular, would like to see someone like Shmuel, precisely because he took a few issues with divisiveness (invariably brought forth by the likes of the incorrigble Blankfort and even more so by the smoldering Atzmon) join us here to call for Jeffrey's reinstatement. Long live divisiveness , I say!

      And while I am at it - calling for reinstatements - if Witty was banned too - as many of us suspect - let him return too. No, I do not consider him remotely on the same level as Blankfort, but he made a good talking lamp post and by being Witty, has brought forth great bursts of wit and merriment over the years. Let him too return as exasperating as his brand of JB (Jewish Baseboard) is. Witty - by fault or default - was part and parcel of the mythology of Mondoweiss. Personally, I feel funny bringing up his name, say, as epitome of disingenuousness and pretzel thought making, without knowing he is lurking somewhere, ready to say something totally innane and/or irrelevant. let him too say his piece, just like eee and Werdine.
      Let them all return and speak their piece. And let the other commenters do what they do best with them - show them up for the hollow ziobots that they are.

      If little shreds of baseboard slit and packets of musty pilpul is the price to pay for having even a bit of light from the Blankfort beacon, so be it.

    • Danaa February 16, 2012 at 1:10 pm

      Patm, if you find the url, please post. I forgot about that one but do remember some other interesting exchanges. Like you, I am surprised about the personality transformation. It can be, of course - the beauty of the internet is that one CAN evolve and/or express different facets of one's persona. All the more so on sites that revolve around exchanges of opinions. More power to them who can be more, especially when the outlook is immutably just.*

      In any case I appreciate all the Avi's and will be delighted to see one and all return to run down the tracks and up the hills with us. We need every nuance of every voice - multiplied a thousand times.

      ___
      * Myself, I entertain many transformative visions too. My favorite is as a stay-on-point brevity meister, with nary nestled parenthesis nor tussling astericks in sight...sigh...

    • Danaa February 15, 2012 at 6:41 pm

      patm, never saw anything from Avi_G that would cause comment policy makers to put on the floppy heavy boots. His was a forceful and unequivocal voice, and careful of words, at that. I suppose we never settled whether he was the same as the old Avi we used to have around here (I personally doubt it - very different styles). Let's hope he didn't get plain bored, with all the latter-day hand-wringing just busy (as we all do, from time to time).

    • Danaa February 15, 2012 at 1:25 pm

      Taxi, Dan, I'll jump. Because I agree - something has gone a bit dull around the edges. There has always been the danger that a site as dedicated to the documenting the travails of the Jewish "spirit" as MW was, will deteriorate into a bowl full of tears, devoid of the very spirit it seeks to reinvigorate. That danger is upon us and I am with Dan, Taxi and Chu on the navel-gazing ambiance that seems to have descended upon us. You wouldn't find me anywhere near a Desh article anymore than tuning it to the latest rubbish MSNBC spews about republican mud-slinging. As Taxi says - it's ennui producing and the agenda is so obvious the aliens who are watching us must be getting bored out of their little green minds. Next we know, they'll shut down the show altogether, and then what!

      One other comment, Taxi. I think the moderators may be unfairly blamed. They may have been thrown under the bus as well, precisely because they can't come out and defend themselves - by definition. As much as we hate to admit it - the blame for the dulling of the site following the banning of Jeffrey lies with them that set policy and make the command decisions. The rest we have no visibility about, so I urge resisting the temptation to jump to conclusions that may or may not be warranted. The mods may have had absolutely nothing to do with the banning of jeffrey, for all we know, unless we hear or find out otherwise. I imagine it is not an easy job, and am not sure why anyone would want to do it, unless paid in tablets of gold.

      Unfortunately no one knows the secret ingredient that makes one site more popular over others, insofar as getting people (known as commenters to the aliens) to give it their best shot. I suspect (and we are all about to see proof) that Jeffret Blankfort somehow was part of the secret ingredient, no matter how frequent or scarce his appearances. Because he could be so provocative and thought provoking. Just seeing him here adding a comment and interjecting once in a while was like a refresher for them who feel trapped in the looking glass, as many of us are. He is one of the prophets for our age, and prophets often have things thrown at them, which is something they surely expect. But once in a while a prophet is 'allowed" to get through, and for that the town on Ninveh was saved (forget the darn whale now - it's an allegory!!).

      For how long and how deep a prophet is allowed to access the conscience of a people - or several people - is a measure of the capacity for redemption the people have, or so I believe. Jeffrey got just short of a decade on this channel, also known as Mondoweiss. And we have all seen this channel go from little rivulets of water to a near-torrent. Alas, when time came to do the real soul digging that needed doing, one of our best digging tools has been taken away, leaving behind a forelorn mound, with but a few disciples milling about, shovels at the ready, still waiting for the green light. To me that means that the work of redemption (by which I mean putting disaster in abeyance - however that happens) is taking a lull, just like Phil.

      PS Imagination is such a curse! grandiosity is never more than wink or a step away! well, I know the good people here have more than a few grains of salt at the ready. More like boulders.

  • The journey to the border
    • Danaa February 8, 2012 at 1:50 pm

      Great story - just like the sequel.

      The similarities between the Palestinian ID "card" and the yellow star Jews of Europe were forced to wear is unmistakable. It's treated like the mark of Cain.

      This is what ethnic cleansing looks like - it starts with a mark, a star, an ID card. This legitimizes the denial of rights to a simple visit, to a place, to family event. It comes with expectation of humiliation, made banal by repetition., amplified by hours of wait - all meant to sear into the soul the status of a second citizenship. Yes, israelis could accelerate the process of a border crossing. But no, they do not wish to do that, and won't. The difficulty of the act of crossing is there for a reason.

      Where does it go from there, and how fast, are the only questions to which we have no definitive answers yet. What this story makes clear however, as have many other stories like it, some told, some not, is that we can have no doubt about the intent. When the fine words about Israel's "need' for security and Jewish desire for a "Homeland" are stripped away for a second, all that's left is a simple story about an individual trying to cross the border. The way Sarah - a human who happens to be Palestinian - is treated, should tell us all we need to know about the intent framing the cold facts of "the crossing". The facts bear the message that this is not just a border; it's a red line. The intent surrounding the facts is to separate "human" from "Palestinian". That's what this particular border is about. A sign that not everyone can just be tourist, just go about their business, just come and go between places.

      I hope Sarah can hang on to her righteous anger. Sometimes that's the flip side of dignity. May her stories multiply, and may her listeners.

      PS where is Witty to tell us about humanizing "the other"? I almost miss him.....

  • How Sarah Schulman managed to get 'Pinkwashing' into the New York Times
    • Danaa February 14, 2012 at 5:40 pm

      robynochs, I think you may have misread the sentence. I believe Phil meant it as it was written wherein "Jewishness" is interpreted in the sense Gilad Atzmon gives it - a tribal-uber-ales approach to the world. In this sense, Jewishness is specifically set in opposition to both Judaism and the Jewish values you espouse, where Tikun Olam runs through and in-tandem with universality.

      The sentence after the one you caught actually makes that clearer, as it mentions Sarah had to break up - on some level - with her own family to reach the insights and moral clarity she has obviously attained.

      Personally, I got a kick out of Phil's shout out to the Gilad term, in just the way it was meant (rather than all the rubbish it has garnered since it was coined).

  • Live tweeting from the Penn BDS conference
    • Danaa February 4, 2012 at 4:16 pm

      Kathleen, very pleased to see Cornell West's name on the supporters list. He has been a great and passionate voice on Occupy events too. And he drives the village voice on MSNBC bonkers - the few times his voice was even allowed to trickle in. But then they got Melisa Harris (that her name?), Maddow's favorite, supposedly speaking for the oh-so-acceptable-kind-of-black-kind-of-elite community. That's all we need to know about where MSNBC and NBC management are.

  • 'NYT' gives Israelis its magazine to make an attack on Iran 'normal'
    • Danaa February 7, 2012 at 3:40 am

      Chaos - "Can we start killing Israeli nuclear scientists, then?"

      Why stop with 'nuclear' scientists? one of the scientists murdered in Iran by israel was a particle physicist. A field also known as theoretical high energy Physics. It has very little to do with nuclear Physics and is about as esoteric as it gets. A person trained in that field will likely know next to nothing about nuclear "bombs" which is really more about nuclear engineering, since the Physics is pretty much all known. I expect that someone - in the bowls of the Mossad made a little mistake - or two - perhaps they didn't take very much Physics in college? assuming they went to a decent college in the first place and did not just get to coast. As an aside, that one murdered Iranian scientist (forgot his name for a moment) participated in conferences - and even collaborated - with israeli scientists, who knew him from his work - and several of them expressed utter disgust - and indeed alarm - over the vicious murder of one of their own.

      Basically, it's like killing a cosmologist, or someone like Feinmann (bless his memory) or Weinberg or Green or Van t'Hooft, just to mention a few known names (not saying the iranian was of the same caliber or reknown). How would we feel about that?

      And who is to say that this does not expose israeli theoretical scientists to the same treatment? if everything goes - why nwouldn't this give license to someone to just bomb a hall full of nanotechnology experts? (one of the murdered Iranian scientists was in that field). We have over 10 major conferences in that field alone around the world. Does anyone really think it's a good idea to have them crawling with security operatives watching for potential killers?

      From what I gather, of the 4 murdered scientists only one had even a tenuous connection with nuclear engineering (the first one murdered). The last guy assassinated was relatively junior - and worked in procurement . What that tells me is that Israeli Mossad doesn't really have good nuclear scientist "targets". Only targets of opportunity. Quite likely, the significant nuclear scientists in Iran are quite well protected, and will not be allowed to just step into a car on the street without serious precautions.

      In any case, I do wonder how safe Israeli scientists feel about all this, and what do they really think about their colleagues being murdered?

  • Wait-- do you like Israel? (Jeffrey Goldberg's ultimate test)
    • Danaa January 30, 2012 at 4:54 pm

      Like Eva says.

    • Danaa January 30, 2012 at 3:40 pm

      Thanks for the lingusitic schooling, Citizen. Needed that.

      I know what you are talking about when it comes to Greenberg movies. I walked out of "A serious man". Found it irritating, for some reason. The mannerisms bugged me. Maybe I saw the agenda from miles away, and din't feel like being manipulated in that - oh, so clever - way.

      May be that's how one knows they have really stepped outside the tribe, and not just the inner perimeter. Something about not finding certain things charming any longer, as in "not gemutlichkeit".

      That, IMO, is what explains the unusual hostility (Ressentiment?) directed at Gilad Atzmon. It's like "they" know (as in "everyone" in the Jewish circle, however their relation is to zionism) that he stepped out, for real. If "they" could only feel that he still loves, or at least laments over love lost, much would be forgiven, and he would be "tolerated", as Norman Finkelstein is (tolerated is not the same as forgiven, I know...).

      I think some people, like perhaps Bruce, sensed - without anyone saying as much that certain individuals (me?) have breached an invisible "love" wall too, which would explain a slightly irrational vehemence. It's like they know when the love affair is over (narcissistic though it was).

    • Danaa January 30, 2012 at 12:05 pm with 3 replies

      The "love/hate" thing really goes to the crux of the matter, doesn't it?

      If "they" feel you "love" israel - in your gut of guts - deep in the liver - then you are allowed to say things - all kind of things. Like questioning the transfer agreement. Like chatting about the Bolsheviks back in the early days of the last century. Like bitterly criticizing the occupation and moaning and groaning about the religious take-over of that country (ah, how tragic - and all that).

      What's the word I'm looking for exactly? gemutlichkeit (sp, anyone?). You either get it or you don't. Like the perennial mother-in-law - if she knows you really, really like her daughter, why - she'll even take your side against the self same wife.

      This is what every Jewish person knows and certainly every Israeli expects - deep abiding love. Why do israelis mistrust Obama? because they know - in their gutty hearts, down to the last kidney stone, that his love may not be true. That it can turn on a dime. From israelis I heard it said quite often that he's "cold", so they don't "like" him. Well, we all know Obama is a bit aloof, emotionally. Phil still thinks he is cool, as a person. We all rather like it sometimes - like when we think he plays to our hopes, and we don't like it so much when he hob-nobs with Wall Street and plays footsy with evil republicans. But we also know and expect that he could not have become president were he any different, given what elections are like around here. But israelis - and many Jewish people in the US - get a different message, one that's barely articulated. He's too cool for them to read, and since they can't be sure of the true state of his heart, the pressure can never relent.

      As Annie said - totally passive aggressive. A Jewish mother specialty (so not lumping them all into one, honest....).

      One last thought - Romney. Speak of cold. Strangely Jewish people who support him probably feel that from such as him love is not needed. Emotional robots can be controlled - so trust is really not an issue. Romney will respond to pressure at the push of a button. Predictable without fail. So who needs emotion when you got the finger on the controls, wirelessly activated?

  • 'Tablet' says writers who talk about Israel Firsters are channeling Hitler
    • Danaa January 28, 2012 at 5:13 pm

      American, we have discussed Avigail's articles before on MW I recall - back a year or so ago (I believe it may have been PG or Dickerson who first brought her essays to my attention). I've been pretty much using her psychological analysis as guide on what may or may not work in dealing with a near-insane collective entity, and probably commented on that a few times along the way. great of teta to remind us all. The bottom line is that Israel is well past the point of friendly logical persuasion (per my - and others' much worn counter-pointer to Witty, made entirely to avail). The only thing IMO that could work at this point is behavioral therapy. Hence my firm belief in BDS (the maximalist version) brought to bear by the people of the world. many would have preferred pressure from America but unfortunately that form of therapy has been neutralized.

      Unfortunately, BDS will take a long time to gather enough steam to work properly. The effects are however likely to be amplified thanks to internal pressure in Israel itself. Mostly due to demographic shifts towards ever increasing orthodoxy. As israel moves further towards theocracy -with its attendant anti-democratic effects - more segments of world Jewry will be peeling off, and greater fractions of the peeled off portions will no longer find BDS so objectionable. Alas, I wish I could say things will improve for the Palestinians in the process but unfortunately the opposite is more likely to be true.

      Actually a capable friend helped me worked up a mathematical expression to describe this scenario - I think it is so predictable that a quadric polynomial may do. Will perhaps unveil one of these days (ie, once we figure out the magnitude of the coefficients, no mean task, especially with Iran as a complicating factor; darn...).

  • The antiwar movement must rise again. Now
    • Danaa January 27, 2012 at 2:58 pm

      Bruce, you give me too much credit for ubiquity. If you look at my history (not suggesting you do, heaven forbid) you may notice my rate of comment frequency has been highly modulated. Kind of doubt Shingo will accept a title as "dominant commenting force" either (that does have a nice ring to it, doesn't it?).

      I am, of course, delighted to see Shingo added to "my" rag-tag gang. Wouldn't want it to be another "Gang of Four" (it's copyrighted!). Will just have to find a properly good title for him - champion knight that he is. As for poor Keith, I'm not sure he would accept the "technocrat" label (my bad, tortuous grammar and all that). Or, for that matter, whether he'd care to wear the gang colors. Maybe annie can help fix the costume design?

      Though now that I see our numbers growing (do we have a minyan yet - perhaps with tree and a few of her admirers?), am thinking of consulting one of the many excellent lawyers around to fashion a decent set of By-Laws. Every gang should have such, otherwise it's just a mafia.

      Can we have Mooser too, please? assuming he gets over our little difference of opinion over an individual whose first name starts with a "G". Of course, he is on record as saying he wouldn't want to be a member of any group that would have him - but we can have really innovative By-laws that would allow for bifurcated membership, surely.

    • Danaa January 27, 2012 at 1:36 am

      Bruce, you say: "... don’t take this personal, when I try to convince Jews to do this, you, Keith, MRW, Citizen, American and others would be the last people I would want next to me. Keith discussing “world Jewry” and MRW recommending reading David Irving would not be helpful. Can you not comprehend that? There are many Jews I know who would be receptive to reading postings from Mondoweiss, but I don’t send the links for fear they might read your commenting".

      I think this part sums up the problem in a nut-shell. You have now excluded me personally from your movement, as one you wouldn't want to make common cause with. You go on to exclude several others, each for their own sins of expression. Putting the rest of your post aside for a moment, what you've just implied is that you don't really want any non-Jewish people, and/or strongly non-zionist people like myself along for any ride that challenges the lobby, unless you have vetted them for purity of intent.

      Yet, since you agree that The Lobby has much to do with the march to attack Iran (I hate to call it "war", just like Iraq was not a "war" but a conquest), even if we disagree how much, someone reading your statement would conclude that this action you are calling for - which involves undermining The Lobby - as you admit - is something for Jewish people and perhaps a smattering of philo-semites to do. The rest of us should keep off the grass. Not pure enough and under too heavy a cloud of suspicion.

      I do see a little problem rounding up the numbers and/or the enthusiasm if anyone from middle America (which MRW, American and citizen often try to give voice to), technocrat America and/or just strong anti-zionists/anti-imperialists (myself or perhaps Keith) are excluded. The anti- or non-=zionist part is especially important, seeing that The Lobby is 80% about zionism and perhaps 1% for Jewish people and those are only a very narrow Jewish elite it is for. This is indeed Israel's lobby through and through (which is why I consider the tern "Jewish Lobby" a bad misnomer). Whichever party is in power in israel is what The Lobby supports. Right now we know which party it is and have reason to believe it will only slide further to the right.

      I also do disagree with you about the support for bombing Iran. It is 95% directed from Israel, channeled through the neocons that are in league with it, and through The Lobby that enforces Israel-first policies throughout the US government. That Republicans call for bombing and democrats whine about it or are silent in the face of the onslaught, is really a reflection of the deep corruption of our political system, and the subservience of the MSM village - (as Greenwald highlights at least once a week). The essence of the corruption lies in the unchecked power of lobbies that have no counter lobby or movement to oppose it. It is my opinion that The Israel Lobby has achieved such supremacy just by virtue of the absence of effective opposition - ie, it embodies a serious - potentially fatal - fluke of the American system of elections and governance.

      Your reply to me, if not the original post, showcases precisely why progressivism has become so toothless in this country. There is an elephant in the progressive camp and everyone is too busy looking away to mount an effective counter-action. Personally I am sorry to see you so hobbled by suspicions and distrust. Needless to say, I don't share this particular predilection.

    • Danaa January 26, 2012 at 12:38 am with 25 replies

      Bruce, the only way to do anything about the march to bomb Iran is to do something about The Lobby. That's who has been calling for it, that's what's behind it, and that's why the Jewish people on the left who'd normally be anti-war are coerced into silence.

      This site does shine light on the Lobby (in all its nether reaches) and on the many ways in which it ties up the hands of Jewish activists. It also highlights the significance of Jewish establishment figures and general influence in muzzling the media and hobbling our political system. In that MW does a great service, unequaled anywhere else. You pointed out yourself that if there were an effective anti-war movement it'd draw the attention of that crowd. And they don't take prisoners.

      The bottom line is simple - israel is hell bent on bombing Iran, snuffing out the life of a few more Hezbollah/Lebanese people out in the process. The Lobby's job is to make sure America does what Israel wants. The only question is when. Zbig says between now and 3 weeks before the election. I tend to agree.

      Th only way out is for a critical mass of Jewish people to get together with non-Jewish Americans and stand up to the forces of doom, be they israel, The Lobby, organized jewish organization and tsometimes, their own families. To do that there'll have to be a heck of lot more courage around than we've seen thus far. Glen has much of it to spare. But he is just one. And there are too few around like him even if I were to count to 100.

      Organizing is certainly a good idea, whether it'll be in time to prevent the evil deed or to deal with the consequences after the fact (and there'll be quite a few negative ones). I would however say that such a movement should be its own organization and its own site, with Mondoweiss adding logistic support as one of several stake-holders.

      Mondoweiss has another important role that takes up much of its bandwidth and accounts for a huge fraction of its supporters. It has been unrelenting in shining light on a process of Israel taking over the West bank (to be followed by expelling large numbers of palestinian inhabitants). The Jewish establishment is in on this and indeed, supports it (notable dissenters notwithstanding). Bombing Iran is just a part of the plan, and it seems like Israel (80% of it, and a large chunck of its leadership) concluded that it's a critical part. Mondoweiss has been one of the few places where these connections are made, as well they should. It should continue in this laudable effort, but perhaps lend support to a new anti-war movement such as the one you are talking about cobbling together.

  • New additions to the Mondoweiss comments policy
    • Danaa January 27, 2012 at 12:43 pm with 1 replies

      opaleye, another astute comment from you. I wish you got some answers to your well stated questions.

      My worry is more about the slippery slope. Seen that happen on too many blogs, newspapers and other media. It started with holocaust denial on DailyKos too, along with Nazi comparisons. It now has hardly any discussions of foreign policy or foreign drone campaigns or Iran at all. It turned into a "Re-elect Obama and democrats" site. It also got too boring to read, and last I looked (which was a while back) the commentary consists of one liner Kumbaya and counter-Kumbaya interspersed with the occasional juvenile food fight to break up the monotony.

      The other problem I see with subjectivity is best illustrated with Werdine's posts above. Though he treads more gingerly, as commenters pointed out, he cam closer to Nakba denial than anyone I've seen here come close to Holocaust denial. It's all about definitions of what "denial" is, and I doubt it's even possible to apply the "know-it-when-we-see-it" rule even handedly. And no I am not calling for banning Werdine - or anyone else. Though I am on record calling for having a "LBR" (Little Boys Room) where the temporarily intemperate can be sent for a time to find their inner zen.

    • Danaa January 26, 2012 at 12:08 am with 1 replies

      Bruce, read your comment again, and see whether this tit-for-tat isn't exactly the kind of problem is that causes the need for moderation in the first place.

      You seem to have a tendency to take things awfully personally, a TSS (thin skin syndrome) perhaps? Whatever the issue is, zionism it isn't.

      Sure hope Keith doesn't take you up on yet another duel (despite the threats implicit in another of those "I Insist"'s somebody is fond of throwing around).

    • Danaa January 25, 2012 at 7:02 pm with 3 replies

      For the record: it was not the coffee quip I agreed with ( I have no doubt about the enormous effort the site's editors and writers put in).

      My point of agreement was with the exposing of the deniers instead of kicking them downstairs.

      Maybe I have an unreasonable fear of what's lurking in the dark. Or maybe an unreasonable faith in that sunlight (as the surest way of keeping the meanies where we can see them).

    • Danaa January 25, 2012 at 6:47 pm

      Hear, hear, tree.

      With you all the way.

    • Danaa January 25, 2012 at 4:32 pm with 1 replies

      I agree with you, Taxi. If anti-semitism is a problem, better it be exposed in the open, where we can all look at what's out there, make up our own minds, and counter it.

      Just because something is not discussed in polite society, doesn't mean it goes away. It more likely goes underground, there to fester and potentially grow, away from prying eyes. And none of us will even know when things reach a critical mass.

      A case in point: did most of us realize just how pervasive and insidious racism still was in parts of the country, before the tea party kicked in? is it not better now that we know what we are up against? is it not better that the republican candidates like Romney, Gingrich and Santorum are permitted their day in the sun, where we can all check out, in broad dayligh, what really lurks in the hearts of them and their supporters? it most certainly isn't Obamacare many have the biggest problem with, is it?

    • Danaa January 25, 2012 at 4:22 pm with 4 replies

      So, the intemperate calls to temperance win - Bruce, Donald and eljay must be ecstatic. Many of us here are disappointed but hardly surprised. In my mind it was a question of time, really, maybe because I know that patterns are immutable (if I may be so pompous as to say that. Or is pomposity banned too now?).

      In Israel they are about to or have already banned references to a word - "nazi". They are also banning comparisons of Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto. I have every expectation that whatever new rules and curbs on speech Israel comes up with, will spread to the US, not by leaps and bounds, but in a steady trickle that will become a torrent. And since israel will only move further to the right, the curbs on free speech will increase in frequency and severity over there whatever the rosy glassers, dreamland 2 staters think (not to mention those who see their job as pulling the wool over our collective eyes of whom we have the occasional visitor here, at MW).

      On DailyKos it also started as a ban on CTs. First it was 9/11. Then it was Kennedy Assassination. Then it was USS Liberty ( a toxic subject, anyone?). Then the Warsaw Ghetto references. From there on the road was clear to banning pretty much everybody who was anybody. The result being - foreign affairs are hardly ever discussed there much, and the entire site has become "bash Republicans" garden party. Too bad I can't stand even popping in there any longer (on doctor's orders, am not allowed to visit sites for sore eyes). I really liked their science poster, their hurricane man, and a couple other philosopher types.

      As for the new rules - I just have three questions:
      1. Are we not to refer any more to the "Dancing Israelis"? that'd be too bad since I like dance. There's way too little of it around.
      2. Do I have to forgo MRW's periodic love declarations? Who will take his place?
      3. Do we all have to be super-polite now and profess false respect for whom we have none?
      4. Are references to Gilad Atzmon verbotten too? is he in Herem on MW?

      Oops, I lied (is that a banning offense?). Not only that, but I also have a tiny request: can the site also please consider banning discussions of "Just War" theories (or, as Shingo the commenter, who I hope is still around, said best "Just a War")? Some of us found that entire concept kind of obscene, given the reality (rivers of blood, charred flesh, etc.). Mention of such alone is bound to boil vulcanic (certainly among some who had introduction to actual war, "just" or otherwise...). And volcanic eruptions are bad for the site, no?

  • Bad career move by Tilda Swinton
    • Danaa January 25, 2012 at 7:20 pm

      Re New comments policy: why do we still have hophmi here, after having called Phil an anti-semite?

      Is that not a serious violation of both policy and ethiquette, not to mention truth?

      I realize it's a teachable moment, but.....

  • Why Christian Zionism is nothing short of outright heresy
    • Danaa January 24, 2012 at 4:10 pm

      Citizen, I've had some success in at least confounding, if not "convincing" some CZ's to pause and consider a few facts. the argument I used was that the Jews who are in Israel are, for the most part, not actually the true descendants of the bibilical Jews, neither in lineage, nor in spirit. The real jews (by lineage) are, in truth, the palestinians, even if they now have other religions. By my argument, God has presented the Christians a great challenge as to who they need to cast their support with. Perhaps God cares a great deal about what happens to the true descendents of the jews , so the rapture cannot come until all the refugees return.

      At that point, they'll mumble something about how it is not up to them to decide who's a Jew (thus joining a great good crowd). To which I answer that in fact, that is exactly their job, since the Jews need true Christians' help to join in the salvation exercise.

      After that, there's usually silence. Maybe they go off to think a little, maybe they ask their priest, maybe they put it out of mind, as they must do with all other challenges. But maybe the seed of doubt has been sewn.

      It helps, BTW, that I sound awfully convincing (even to myself) and have the pedigree to supposedly know what I'm talking about (not really, but that's just between you and me and a few lurkers).

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