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Total number of comments: 41 (since 2011-07-17 04:41:16)

Desperately seeking open rational discussion

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  • About Mondoweiss
    • For a country so fraught with 'evil' it has had extraordinary economic, artistic, and scientific success on the world stage, despite the huge financial burden on the country to sustain its military force. When the Palestinians decide to turn their hate into something constructive we might start getting somewhere. I remember how the green houses left behind by Israel after the evacuation of Gaza were smashed to pieces by the proponents of Hamas.

  • State Department awards $200,000 to Elliott-Abrams-led thinktank repeatedly cited by mass murderer Breivik
    • Just because Breivik happens to have mentioned the names of people and organizations does not taint them. There were many great minds he drew mental sustenance from, but that doesn't mean we have to burn all the books of John Stuart Mill. This is the kind of perverse stupid thinking that takes us nowhere.

    • "There wouldn’t be any antisemitism in the ME if the Zionist occupation never existed" - utter rubbish. Antisemitism goes back to the time of Muhammed (link to

  • Slouching toward theocracy: Tehran and Tel Aviv may have something in common
    • First it was the Ottomans, then the British and now the Jews who are to blame.
      Right across the Arab world it's the same, they can only be understood as victims, never as aggressors or perpetrators. This grievance culture is more or less ubiquitous and forms a central element of Islamist and wider Muslim political culture the world over. They take no real responsibility for their own failure to achieve a viable productive national identity. The “logical” response to criticism is, therefore, to attack the critic rather than address the problem. And it is a strategy that is validated and encouraged by the left liberal establishment across the West.

    • And you'll hear it again. The Palestinians need to take the blame for the situation they are in, because they have significantly contributed to it. Preaching victimhood for ever more isn't very productive.

    • Annie, the origins of the Palestinian problem are dealt exquisitely by Efraim Karsh in 'Palestine Betrayed', an astounding book that blows the 'new historians' completely out of the water.
      Otherwise I am saying that a foundation document such as Israel's Declaration of Independence will hopefully protect against the infiltration of power from the religious right. The emergence of the right as a overly potent force in Israel is largely as a consequence of the constant belligerency faced by Israel since its independence by the Palestinians and Israel's Arab neighbours.

    • Israel's Declaration of Independence (a covenantal document) has been given quasi-constitutional status by the courts in lieu of a formal bill of rights, since it specifies the basic principles of the nation. In particular new lawmakers will need to struggle with these inviolable statements:

      WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

      WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

  • Hillel fears it is being 'marginalized' by young Jews because of its fierce support for Israel
  • Savage murder of musician Ibrahim Qattush shows Syria's dictatorship is brutish, uncouth, macabre
  • Victoria (Australia) threatens further crackdown on boycott activists
    • The bluster of the fluster. It's all so simple when you choose to make everything black or white - the reductionist approach will not work. This is the thinking that never leads to a solution and gives us this irreconcilable conflict.

    • I see one very inconclusive 4 min video. What were the stumbling blocks? What were the full terms of any potential agreement? It seems to me that we are just seeing the evidence of negotiations and manoeuverings. All very vague and obscure. Has the Guardian newspaper got some kind of monopoly on the Palestinian Papers? If they were so incriminating of Israel they would have been gobbled up by the mass media.

    • From the last BBC link:
      "The al-Jazeera TV network released details of some 1,600 confidential documents detailing Palestinian negotiating positions.
      The files suggested the Palestinians were ready to make big concessions, despite public claims to the contrary."

      Typical Palestinians tactics - say one thing and do another. Arafat was a champion at that kind of tomfoolery.

    • Oh yeh.
      Saeb Erekat dismissed the Palestinian Papers as "a bunch of lies" in an interview with al-Jazeera shortly after they were released.
      link to

    • You publish a link to a poll that was conducted in 2005! Even then no give by the Palestinians on Jerusalem and wasn't an agreement on Jerusalem supposed to be wrapped up in the whole deal? We can all speculate on the reasons for the new Palestinian intransigence and Islam has heaps to do with it.

    • Let the courts decide.

    • The only thing you take seriously is your own propaganda machine. You want to tell me that the Palestinians want a two state solution? When poll after poll says the same thing you eventually get the message.

    • No it's the very opposite. Israelis are ready to talk tachlis while the Palestinians wriggle and squirm to find new ways to oppose Israel's right to exist. See poll link to where, according to an intensive, face-to-face survey in Arabic of 1,010 Palestinian adults in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip completed in July by American pollster Stanley Greenberg, it reports that 73% of 1,010 Palestinians in W. Bank, Gaza agree with the 'hadith' quoted in Hamas Charter about the need to kill Jews hiding behind stones, trees.

    • Photographs? To show my grandchildren.

    • Shingo, you response came out like the bullet from gun - maybe you should have given it more thought.

      "They are legally allowed to yes, but O’Brien is asking the ACCC to investigate all groups that endorse BDS, including those that weren’t even present or represented when the arrests were made." >> This happens to be the law of the land. The lawyers have to nut it out and we'll see. You guys are such sticklers for international law, aren't you.

      "Teasing the cops? Are you serious? The cops didn’t arrest peopel becvasue they were being teased". So pray tell was it because the demonstrators got too aggressive and defied police lines?

      You don't give a rat's arse for Australia's vote in September?

      Finally I need to find out how to highlight the intemperate remarks of my detractors in my replies. Any helpers?

    • Well painted Woody - I see the Communists overthrowing the Bolsheviks, the promise of a glorious victory over capitalism and freedom to the masses.

    • Shingo claims "The Victorian government is resorting to some desperate measure to try and stifle protest, but it won’t work." Shingo, how do you get to be such an expert!
      This insinuation is pure left-wing gutter sniping propaganda as well as being completely false. There are laws in Australia that have existed so that the country runs with a semblance of order, which the socialist left alliance misfits don't appreciate because they tend to be anarchists.

    • The bias exudes. Insinuation that the charge of "breaching bail conditions" is a pretense is a very hollow untrue remark as I have photographic evidence to the contrary. The protestors are welcome to stand in any public forum in the state of Victoria and present their case for Palestine. Just please no bullying, no intimidation and no teasing the cops, who have been listening to the news from London and won't be toyed with. The intemperate behaviour demonstrated at the frequent BDS rallies certainly won't help persuade the Australian government to vote for a Palestinian state in September.

  • Israeli textbooks portray Palestinians as 'terrorists, refugees, and primitive farmers'
    • This current conflict has nothing to do with Poland or Germany, so somebody else borrowing the concept of the Holocaust for their own purposes doesn't really concern them. On the other hand vicious delegitimisers of Israel, who include many who dogmatise in mondoweiss, twist the Holocaust from being something the Jews experienced to something they are perpetrating. Now that is when we enter the realm of obscenity.

    • Chaos4700, you seem to be totally blinded by propaganda and ignorant to boot. To say “YOU and your family have had their rightful property (in EUROPE) returned to you by international law” is a completely base false argument. My parents walked away from the Holocaust with nothing, eventually getting some pittance money from restitution measures. And the 800,000 Jewish refugees that fled rampant persecution and anti-semitism in 1948 from Arab countries all round the Middle East got on with their lives. The Palestinians have been used as pawns by the Arab nations who have always treated them as second-rate citizens. I have never denied that the Palestinians have experienced a tragedy, but their leaders and Arab brethren are mainly responsible.
      How in heaven’s name do you construe that Israelis should be assimilated with Palestinians. Are Greek and Turkey one state?

    • To say that the Nakba compares to the gravity of the Holocaust is a total nonsense and I can well appreciate is very offensive to many Israelis, who moreover get labelled as Nazis into the bargain which compounds the insult. There have been many refugee problems that have faced the world but why is the Palestinian problem unique? Why is a de facto exchange of Arab and Jewish populations treated differently from all other population exchanges? Virtually all mass movements of refugees -- even those which went one way and were not reciprocal, as are population exchanges -- have been solved by resettlement or absorption of the refugees in either the original host country or another designated area, Greece and Turkey, India and Pakistan, Germany etc
      And so much for the feeble twisted logic of your response. I can have it both ways because Abbas is a Holocaust denier and Palestinians have defiled the memory of The Holocaust and in doing so have succeeded in inventing their own brand of 'genocide by stealth'.
      What does 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' mean if not the annihilation of Israel?
      And mig, Israel must really be seeking peace if is prepared to talk to two-faced miscreants like Arafat and Abbas.

    • The Palestinians paint the Nakba like the Holocaust which is deeply offensive to a country that went through the worst human Holocaust in history. At an education conference recently Israel's Minister of Education Gideon Saar addressed the question (Hebrew) of teaching the Palestinian narrative in Israeli schools. He asserted (predictably) that Israel’s Ministry of Education will never permit the instruction of the Nakba or anything related to the Palestinian narrative in Israeli schools since “Israeli independence shall not be treated like the Holocaust.” The problem is that the Arab-Palestinian narrative is so abusive and hateful that the Nakba has become tainted and representative of evil intent. How can maps mention Palestine when it doesn't exist as a national entity yet?
      annie, your response to my statements is so typical. No refutation of what I say - just the utterance of something else to override or counteract my assertions. Are you telling me that it doesn't matter that Abbas, the Palestinian leader was a Holocaust denier and maybe still is at heart.

    • Second time -
      The Palestinians are gracious enough to actually admit that there was a Holocaust. We are certainly making amazing progress since Mahmoud Abbas finished his Ph.D on Holocaust Denial. Palestinian atlases don't show Israel on their maps. Is this wishful thinking?

  • The Norway massacre and the nexus of Islamophobia and right-wing Zionism
    • I DON'T blame Islamic radicalism as the chief cause for the shooter’s motivations. I say it is a major causal factor. As it seems every day we witness examples of Islamic radicalism gone crazy right across the Muslim world. The case of the the Russian guy who killed a Muslim woman in court could be matched by 1000 other examples of Muslim men defiling their own women. And who should I have read - al-Banna, Muhammad al-Ghazali, Ramadan or Sayyad Qutb?

    • You need that kind of militarization to protect yourself from constant aggression as witnessed through the 67 and 73 Wars, Lebanon in 1982 and 2006, the First and Second Intifada etc. And I suppose you reckon that Israel attacked Gaza in 2009 just demonstrate that power. And I suppose that the residents of Sderot were meant just to sit their tight lipped while rockets rained down upon them over the last 10 years. Radical Islam is no toy - the hanging of an 8 year child the other day in Afghanistan shows their style.

    • As we stray off the beaten track...

    • I should take my advice and stop to talking to you.

    • The topic here is radical Islam not Bible history.

    • I never said that I justified any of the things you mentioned. QED

    • I speak of the kind of bias that defies rhyme or reason.

    • Bumblebye, you need to go back a bit further than that to the time of Mohammed and the raid he led on the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe to slaughter them because they wouldn't support him.

    • Shingo,
      The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has nothing to do with World War II and won't be resolved in the same way. And obviously you think the Hamas charter is made up of mere words. I have a life and grew up some time ago; try sticking to the topic next time instead of letting your hate get the better of you.

    • The Jews are the passive recipients of hatred; radical Muslims are the active proponents of hatred. Hardly the same logic.

    • One of the reasons I came in on this topic is that on MondoWeiss there has been scant recognition of the impact of radical Islam on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Plenty of anti-Zionist focus but not the whole debate. To really solve any conflict you won't do that by bashing away on the one side without considering the other. This reflects an obvious bias amongst contributors here.

    • Why are people so quick to implicate Zionism and fire up their conspiracy theories? Such people will twist anything to make it into a weapon to wield against Israel. The point is that this guy developed a hatred of Islam not out of the blue, but because of a uncontrollable fear of Islam and the impact it is having on European societies.
      A terrible act without question - the act of a fundamentalist and fundamentalism itself is the problem whatever its persuasion. Islam has some responsibility for this event. We witness the propensity of right winged extremists to take the law into their own hands, because Muslims around the world are not doing enough to clean up their own act and control the radical Islamic elements in their ranks who are pushing jihad at all costs.

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