Total number of comments: 230 (since 2010-05-12 09:07:35)
unverified__316al2ef
Bohemian Brit, Child of the world and lapsed follower of the non-prophet Ghandi.
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I'm still waiting to hear, just once, a proponent of 'benevolent colonialisation' volunteer their own nation for 'improvement'.
+1 on the IBC casualty figures gamal, also IMHO the notion of bunker busters as 'fracking the enemy', is highly dubious and thus a distraction.
This all needs to be said, this should be on the idiot box every time some chickenhawk politician or pundit starts reciting from 'warmongering for dummies', however the piece is short one word. I believe the most significant word, the innocuous one that very few would recognise before, that after the event everyone knows, and wishes they didn't. For us in the UK, not many people had heard of an Exocet before the Falklands War, afterwards everyone had, and by the MSM measurement criteria ( our blood ) this wars word could well be Sunburn.
If one goes by the rule ; 'the first to mention hitler loses the debate', has this piece not lost the argument at first sight.
I'm sure it has been posted before, but the original Israelman by Eli Valley is still the benchmark IMHO:
link to evcomics.com
check it out you won't be dissappointed
"unless you abrogate or control access to the internet." and who has the power to do that ? , real books are still important, maybe more so due to our great reliance on the net.
I think the Fundies are assuming that after all the Jews and Muslims are dead in the big War for Jesus, Jerusalem is theirs .
I wonder if they're going to get desperate enough to start re-tasking the Hasbaranauts.
classic line from that link:
"I think one of the reasons he's surging — I mean he's like a rocket ship — is because of the fact that he says it like it is," Trump said of Gingrich.
, it was written in May, I wonder what he thinks now ?
Telegraph - Lefty?!?
there are so many to list, Rumsfeld, IMHO really should be prominent, and Blair.
one could spend years in a military system of instruction, training, discipline, orders, a control mechanism in which one's place, is as a cog in a giant machine. Only to find that suddenly, no actually you're running the show and setting the course, yours is the hand that makes it so, and yours is the face on the MSM show, 'why did it all go wrong'.
We are are all responsible, all those in the democratic countries that fought the war. Those who faces should be shown next to the pictures of the newborn of Falluja are those who were planning it back in the 90's.
I think you make an important point Dan,
" From this came the break up of the left – the college educated hippies vs. the working class former soldiers, and we’ve been F’d as a country ever since. Let’s not do this again. The fact of the matter is, we not only owe an apology to Iraq, we owe an apology to humanity, including the men and women in the US uniform who (like me) fell for the nonsense about “honor, integrity” and images of slaying the dragon etc. "
It's so obscene, I wonder if even Satan himself might be giving Dick a bit of a ticking off in the next memo.
maybe I missed the talking points doing the rounds,
why are we hating Roma people? do they even get a mention on an officially approved hate-sheet, did I miss something?
I know they get regular waves of general abuse over here in the UK, especially since their way of life was made practically illegal nearly two decades ago.
NC,
If you still have contact with SOP, you could do them a big favor and point out that they use:
"I welcome the efforts of Seeds of Peace. Such exposure at an early age to a divergence of views plays a crucial part in laying the foundations for tolerance and understanding." - Tony Blair,
on the front page frame of the Seeds of Peace website, not good in light of the last decade or so of tolerance and understanding in the ME.
the Oslo Accords are/were a goddamn scam, please catch up, that is why the malevolance persists in the Levant, nearly two decades after the brief period (supposedly) of the transition.
there's also reason people all over the world do and will remember Rachel Corrie , Vittorio Arrigoni , Tom Hurndall and others, try to work out why , an exercise in Normalisation. As an obvious example, the Spanish Civil War also inspired and continues to inspire.
disclosure: on a very personal level, I'm pissed at the inclusion of the Israeli Ministry of Education in anything other than a bonfire of the bureauocracies.
Oh come on Light,
even Wikipedia shows the Ottoman Census research as 4% Jewish in the mid 19th Century pre political Zionism , rising to 8% in 1914 and about 10-11% in the early British Mandate , when we graciously gave sovereignty of all/part ( depending on POV ) of Palestine to a bunch of well connected suits in the 'Washington' of the day.
hasn't the UKPlc dear leader of the day, Mr Cameron, also beat a rather hasty and unpublicised retreat from the JNF fairly recently.
Rats deserting a sinking ship.
Blackened lips and blackened tongues, those who sup from the cup of bile are stained.
I remember when Apartheid SA fell,
it just went, almost overnight, dissappeared.. gone..
Rabid International debate suddenly dissolved into the South African T&R process and there was no more fight. 'in yer face" became 'nowhere to be seen', almost overnight. Issues with maximalist principles I believe, leads to a very poor defense, no depth, vulnerable to losing large segements of the line to small breakthroughs, and the whole war to a change in the winds.
DM,
I like Finkelstein, the laboured dry delivery, the coldly repetative reliance on reference to source, most un-media, you'd think he actually reads ALL of this stuff.
I'm not that studious, so I'll just play with google for ten minutes or so,
one can google a long post, just do it bit by bit,
or just go to :
link to israelhayom.com
(Yoram Ettinger 13/12/11)
for a good source of the latest cut'n'paste mentality from hive central.
this looks like a very intellectually aspirational effort, what with all the references to real books and such, but tastes like stale crackers and rancid cheese from military survival rations.
p.s. please keep referencing actual books, as the quote from "(Palestine Betrayed, Prof. Efraim Karsh, Yale University Press, 2010, p. 12)" is a quote from the Peel Commission itself and the rest of the book didn't quite look as Politically Correct.
p.p.s I'm curious about “Palestine Today and Tomorrow – a Gentile’s Survey of Zionism” (McMillan, 1929)", as the title suggests a degree of Judeo-centricity, and yet, sections of the paragraph, when searched for , still only lead back to Hasbara Central sources of the same spliced up paragraph, including the many block-quotes, "[Jewish]" etc. surely there is at least one whole sentence of pro-Zionist quote in the entire book. I wouldn't know, I haven't read it, have you?
'All fairy tales have some truth it'
as do many fascistic narratives, nicely contained like animals in a zoo, or maybe petrified, as a venerated idol.
RW ,
have you ever flipped a coin, please tell me you don't go through such intellectual contortions over say, heads or tails, or teads and hails, or whatever.
If you could get them to buy this line in Las Vegas, you'd be minted.
Hophmi,
' non-polemical historians ' like Gingrich maybe.
Finkelstein is no polemicist, he relies on evidence and facts to expose ahistorical BS, although you are right it is his own fault, he could have just regurgitated the politically approved narrative and got plenty of mainstream credit and a nice comfy career. Instead he went looking for truth, which is usually found on the other (less comfy ) side of the lie.
my favourite polemicish Finkelstein from the classics of hasbara demolition,
Finkelstein v Dershowitz - Bruce Lee mashup,
link to youtube.com
no fair, why can't Zionists earn their Lords seats like everybody else has to?,
with Corruption, Cronyism and wads of cash stuffed in brown envelopes.
p.s. I should point out that the Lords sometimes acts as the last fragile line of sanity between British Law and the latest ideological machinations of UKPlc Government.
eee,
if a "majority of jews" equals " common knowledge",
either approx. 6,986,000,000 of us are not "common" enough to count atall, or a "majority of jews"' are not as smart as the white South Africans,
who gave it up when it became obviously unsustainable,
post cold-war.
I could list the examples of "great for ------" periods in human history, but it would be a long long essay, and I doubt you would see beyond the little Jewish bit of the 'who paid' half of the picture.
!^%-** tears running +{:};?
#~!.*{}' ^$#mooser | ,,;}{. !.
-*&...
,
;
:
!
is it just me, or does there always seem to be some balance at work in nature?, always, it seems.
I wouldn't call trickle down a myth per se, I would say in the current manifestation of capitalist systems, wealth trickles down and flows up.
Bearing in mind this is a mantra from a debate on wealth production, i.e. more, it's funny how there's a coyness about openly advocating the 'flow up', they talk about the 'more' in terms of the smaller proportion.
I grew up with "Never Again", Its current dichotemy of useage leads me to move to "Enough Already". So enough already on the few Zionists that post here ; otherwise there's nothing to throw rocks at, and the pit is boring and unproductive of good debate.
droog : prefix-pending (why not, what the heck, it's so damn political and expedience based anyway) Zionist.
I hope they weren't those knoblesse things, nasty creations of imperialist oppressors, cigarettes, still the common currency of war.
"Was it also natural for the Mufti to broadcast “Kill the Jews wherever you find them” over the radio?"
Yes, everywhere we sent our belligerents to colonise, they wanted to kill us for it, it's a demonstratable fact of conquest I'm afraid. From Australia to Africa and back to New Zealand the same result. I know " We'll fight them on the beaches" etc. sounds good, but it's the same speech in a hundred different langauges and contexts, and it's never going to be Zionistically Correct.
This sounds good to me, I can understand the Pals not being too keen, as the ongoing bulldozer of nigh on, a century of history has taught them to beware of "new friends" from afar. I still believe that a publically declared route to acceptance would be politically toxic to a fundamental meme of Zionism and good for future prospects.
consider this propagated
Slagbom, the BNP are pro-Israel, whilst the current 'skinheads', the English Defense League, demonstrated recently in support of the Israeli raid on the Mavi Marmara, and are affiliated with the JDL, try googling EDL israel and BNP Israel
The only fascists here are the trolls .
So you admit that Zionism is actually just betting the whole farm on a spin of the wheel, why not try adopting political ideologies informed by historical evidence, and rational logic instead of the reckless gambler mentality.
'the only way to win, is not to play the game'
If the Law is fairly and equitably applied it does look like 'material support', has America subtly become a legal banana republic, or will Bolton face the same charges as those 'assisting' Hamas.
I agree I've only ever heard the term 'Judas' as reference to a traitor, and a Christian traitor not Jewish ; not letting the fact that everybody's actually Jewish in the Bible stories get in the way.
I have noticed, with regard to the topic, how power seems to move sideways before resentfully spreading downwards from elites. Despots get replaced by new Despots. e.g. the Magna Carta , a document originally indended to shift power from the King to the Robber Barons, and only recently living up to the freedom for the masses hype.
Yes you are correct that out of all the relevant policy documents, I'm guessing none will mention the word Vengeance, probably no official broadcast transcripts will mention revenge and all orders will be absolutely in line with Geneva conventions.
And yet the streets of Britain after the Blitz on cities and years of war would have been raw with rage, the ordinary service personnel, the men from those streets would have shared the simmering anger and I have heard vox-pops of the day freely express this. Those making the decisions of course must have been above such thuggery, maybe that's why they concentrated more on the terror bombing which had failed to break us and less on the infrastructure, e.g. the Dresden Railyard. America argued for more military targetting at various points and while logic might have suggested they were right, we doggedly stuck to terror, there was large public support for the city bombing. I am sure that someone somewhere wrote something down, there's always a kahane, but I'm not prepared to go picking through D.Irving or visiting the archives for specific evidence . I will qualify my statement, I'm sure that Vengeance was a significant underlying individual motive for much of the focus on terror bombing, enough to 'define' the excess of the campaign. We've done this to a small degree lately, with the war on terror shifting the balance of acceptability somewhat, America has indulged in more than a fair bit of a vengeance after 911, vengeance is universal, do you think our modern liberal culture has eliminated this most ancient urge, how?. It used to be proudly proclaimed in the good old days of the middle ages, now we play similarly murderous games and yet go all coy about the base reality of our own emotion makeup.
I do agree with the basic point of the articles you posted about the strategic reasoning behind the Dresden raid, Churchill's decision to sink the French fleet also comes to mind as an example of impressing Uncle Sam, proof of commitment, no vichy here.
I do believe there was/is a significant amount of Holocaust vengeance being metered out on Arabs, as knowing Brits, I find it impossible to believe that the survivors arriving in the middle of a war, handed a gun and someone to shoot, didn't take misplaced revenge, human nature.
As a Brit I think we should just call the Dresden bombing what it was, Vengeance. By the end of the war German civilian casualties dwarfed our own, and that I'm sure was policy.
Is it not true that English as the American first language, was only achieved by a lot of arm-twisting and dodgy politics.
There is no statute of limitations on ROR, technically they are Israeli citizens if they choose to be.
The model for ROR could be based on the Zionist principles you outline:
"the abtract right of return of anyone with any assertion (not even proof in any defined way) that they are Palestinian to return anywhere in former mandate Palestine?"
although I would suggest lists based on available UN and NGO data would suffice, with a door-key to a family home being more tangeable and real proof than any claim dependant on politically expedient mythology.
No Max, the Jewish State can only depend upon you, Max, you, and only through your resolute strength of endeavour, can the Jews be saved from the big bad world. You are right, you cannot rely on America, only your own obstinacy.
wanna score some, eh chap?
know what I mean, nudge, nudge, wink, wink
fresh hasbara, read it now before the Best Before date ( probably tommorrow, best imbibed fresh for full effect)
link to terrorism-info.org.il
This is an expose of the documents captured in the heroic action otherwise known as the memorial day massacre, although please don't expect too much actual exposure of actual documents, no refunds.
Hi Philip, although debate would be great and maybe WJ or someone might have a go re: some facts. MN seems to me, to be projecting some bizarre mix of mental disfunction and the last scene of Braveheart, and then getting attention and distraction from the blowback.
It looks like pipul without the subtlety, I don't think he should be banned, I enjoy Zio-baiting it's fun, and I enjoy reading many of the choice put downs although cliff has a point about the derailment. Is there a way of minimising comments ala haaretz or maybe having a sin-bin for comments.
what is with this disembowling fantasy you are obsessing about,
quote from MinFacts on June 24, 2010 at 8:10 pm , 3rd reply on the post, " even attempting to physicall rip the innards out of one of the viciously stabbed commandos."
please provide sources, evidence , or change your drug-regime whatever.
MinimumFacts:
"The IHH cell beat the IDF commandos with metal bars, used handgun, and stabbings on these soldiers, even attempting to physicall rip the innards out of one of the viciously stabbed commandos.
Clear evidence has been shown worldwide of the IHH cell beating Israelis commandos as they descend. Armed only with paintball guns and holstered light arms, the commandos battled against scored of terrorist supporters, out for blood. As one activist put it, we will arrive in Gaza, or we will die as martyrs, as the head of IHH is shown on video extolling his followers to “throw the Jews off the ship”"
Schwartzman:
" no one buys the fact that these soldiers were murdering people from helicopters. There is no proof of this. Why would the soldiers come down w/ non-lethal weapons if they had already killed someone. There are so many holes in your story its crazy. The non-violence thing is a farce, just like their main mission was for humanitarian purposed. The world, like always, sees right through the lies."
From the conversations I've had recently in this part of the world, the bodycount and the basic premise of Israeli Special Forces vs Turkish activists on a Turkish ship frames the debate, and the broadest theme of opinion seems to me to be more of the usual, " After what happened to them, you'd think they'd know better ". If anything it is the obvious lies which do the most deligitimation of both the hasbara narrative itself and the Zionist cause as robert Fowke pointed out in this article: Why this obsession with Israel and the Palestinians?
link to guardian.co.uk
Annie posted a link to this brilliant piece of military tactical analysis a while back which I think says more than all the reams of post-rationalisation currently being propagated:
link to cnas.org
1.html
When some of our navy were captured by the Iranians a while back, both sides managed to conduct themselves with enough decorum not to start shooting, not to turn an incident into an act of war. I remember, as well as the predicatable vitriol aimed at Armoured-dinnerjacket, the Iranian regime and those who cocked up and put our boat in a vulnerable position; the press particularly poured scorn on the naval rating who bleated on TV " they took my ipod " , the boy had to learn we expect a certain amount of stomach from our service personnel.
We Brits are proud of our Army, we like to think we're hard, we have a long history of proving it too, there is no way anyone could get a RN Marine, SBS or any other Solidier worth his salt to appear on TV and cry to the world about about getting a few knocks on an operation where they patently lost control of the situation and the initiative. Not unless you had a gun the head of their children maybe.
These Elite Commandos are supposedly the best of best of the IDF and yet, Schwartzman and MinFacts, you drum the message home into the minds of the ROTW that they are incompetent and weak, why? The ROTW sees repeatedly the Israeli output that is played over and over again, of the military machine in action with super-troopers, helicopters and speedboats, just like in the movies; getting turned over by a bunch of activists, not like in the movies, and the relentless Hasbara constantly reinforces the message of self-proclaimed 'super-solidiers' who f**k it up and cry about it to the whole world. If the raid were carried out by say, a squad of Cheerleaders, I would have some sympathy with their injuries and the nature of the botch-up, only to be expected, but the Mavi Marmara raid was Shayetet 13, No?, this is the hard edge of the Iron Wall, the teeth of the Mad Dog and the hive lectures the world on how they failed, got hurt and blub about it. Why S and MN do you advertise failure and weakness, the Israel first and only crowd wouldn't dare look here and I would have thought trying to appeal to fench-sitters with fundamental irrationality counter-productive. I cannot understand why those who spring to Israel's defence in this known dive of the bourgeois-intelligencia, and make no attempt at a plausible defense, no 'we cocked up but......'. Maybe it's the old line " A Lie is halfway round the world before the Truth has even got its boots on". This book looks like a boot to me , in the ass-kickin contest of modern history , I'll bet on the steel toe-cap boots of truth over the febrile and slippery lie any day.
Three Palestinian teenagers go to Tel-Aviv beach, have a great time and maybe see some positive aspects of Israeli Jews, and this is a bad thing according to Zionism?, this lends credance to the argument that most Zionists actions display a latent fear of peace.
Its like the hebrew speaking filipino children about being deported, they would be considered as nationals in any western democracy, they would probably be on the news as a success story of whatever nationality it was, a score in the new melting-pot world of soft power.
Sumud, if Palestine had really been a "doable" conquest, we would have put our own people there and added another territory to the lists of "our" lands. As it was, IMHO the Zionists served as useful idiots for the Imperial plans, Israel has always had the role of military base in it's raison d'etre, first ours , now Americas. The mentality of Zionists is useful in the strategy, as if the outpost inhabitants were to, 'go native' the whole venture is compromised, they need to be scared of the indigens and utterly reliant on the distant imperial sugardaddy.
Maximum narrative, minimal fact:
The first definite evidence of human settlement in Ireland dates from 8000 to 7000 BC. They are known from early archaeological findings to have made an appearance in the far north in the lower Bann valley near present-day Coleraine and in the southwest in the Shannon estuary. Later they are thought to spread northeast along the coast of Antrim and followed the Bann upstream to Lough Neagh. They also settled down to an industrious existence on the shore of Larne Lough just north of present-day Belfast, where they chipped flints for implements. These people, mesolithic hunter-gatherers without domestic animals or farming skills, huddled for the most part along the coasts and waterways. As a consequence, these early arrivals had little impact on the environment.
One of the earliest claimed radiocarbon dates for the human inhabitation of Ireland was about 7490 bc. The sample that documents this date was obtained from a primitive settlement that contained charcoal remains at Woodpark in County Sligo.
link to rootsweb.ancestry.com
your obvious contempt for scientifically estabolished knowledge, I'm afraid only provides further proof of the erosion of mental faculties innate to your chosen condition.
And while I'm sure you really wish the Palestinians were more akin to the NI Protestants, you fear the truth that your quasi-religion of Zionism is the implanted colonial entity. Implanted by the same Imperialist Britain, albeit 800 yrs apart, Ireland stands as proof of the stupidity of all Greater-Nationalisms, it just doesn't work. Whereas, Rights and Justice based solutions do work as evidenced by the Northern Ireland Peace Process and the British/Irish national relationship we have today.
Everytime I look at the Eshkol Heights logo it looks more and more like a daytime soap-opera.
The Glamorous and Heartwrenching stories of everyday folks, just trying to make their innocent dreams come true, in a turbulent sea of everybody elses irrational jealousy. The day to day dramas of love and aspiration played out in an ordinary penthouse apartment, the shimmering haze of the parched desert of hatred, just visible in the distance as an everpresent reminder of the rightness of the cause.
" Honey, this is not just about riding some ponzi scheme for all the bling!, this is about the fundamental nature of the human condition. Rights every man has fought for since the beginning of time itself, why shouldn't we have the second pool for the goat?, are we to be oppressed even within our own dreams!?!"
While everyone discusses side issue such as democracy, IbnT also mentions the fundamental point of the dispute: HUMMUS
What is the current historical concensus about the first Hummus?
wiki says 18thC damascus first verifiable reference, possibilities of 12thC
link to en.wikipedia.org
Here's a thought, how about a FIFA or FIA type of organisation with rules of competition for the Hummus wars, If you're gonna do it, do it properly.
The crown for who makes the best/biggest needs a legitimacy greater than the Guiness Book.
Jews? I heard it was the CIA
That's a very revealing video Sumud, well worth a watch although I do feel a sudden urge for a smooth smoking 'Parliament' with the filter thingy thats makes them taste so good.
The Zionist is about as humane as the lung disease I get from said 'Parliaments' and about as honest as the 1950s Cigarette Ads.
RW, 'rational feelings',
perhaps like the 'rational' assertion that the entire Islamic world is a one big billion strong sea of continous aggression against the tiny blue dot. I do recommend trying some rationality, It helps with context and perspective.
Perspectives such as the fact that the 'blue dot' is actually a green dot in a sea of desert, would you trade Israel for ten times as much land in the middle of the Sahara?, thought not, neither did Herzl when the British offered him the Egyptian Sinai.
The Arab world of 350 million people lives largely in ribbons of life following coast, rivers and clustered around whatever arable land there is, please cast an eye over these maps:
link to earthtrends.wri.org
link to lcluc.umd.edu
link to catsg.org
for a more accurate and rational picture.
What the British Imperial Government did consider in the run up to Balfour was the expediency of cutting the ribbon of the Arab World in two with a handy military base cum colonialist state, conveniently blocking the Africa/Asia land bridge and within strike range of both the newly discovered Arabian Oilfields and the vital Suez Canal.
The real shame, is that for thousands of years there were blue dots all over the Arab World, what has changed in the last hundred years?
I do wonder if whole nightmare is not a twisted re-run of ancient history, a couple of thousand years ago a bunch of exiled rabbis ended up with IMHO, the very practical and logical position that maintaining a moral religion linked by the sword to key geostrategic real estate ain't gonna work, might as well go back to worshipping Baal. Obviously euphemised in the terminology of the religious but logical nevertheless.
same thing
Satan
would you say ,RW that this non-violent life-way is what you practice?
I thought we were all Goy now; that hebrew term, meaning Nation
There does seem to be a phenomenon amongst the PEP-posse where dots keep being added according to fine principles but the joining-up is just too scary to face e.g.,
' Roger writes often about the themes that you noted.'.
And yet the dots do keep falling into place, perpetually, and the picture becomes clearer and clearer, day by day, except it can't be what it looks like because that violates the great utopian dream. The obtuse charade of coyness does look like a constipated morality to me.
No, I'm winding you up, my bad , I was hoping more people could see the opportunity in this idea, to get some hasbara line to self-destruct.
I'm quoting 'Kelly's Heroes' BTW
Avi, don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning,
I think this idea is so good that it warrants a 'Tourism in Ramallah' website, to encourage more people to visit, or try to anyhow.
I knew you were kidding, but consider the implication of this line of hasbara:
' Ramallah is like Tel Aviv, you can even go clubbing there'
to an uninformed and essentially uninterested average Joe, the next question on their minds could be , 'yeah, why not go there? '. So the simple act of trying to do what the NYT has advertised would either be successful, and then revealing or unsuccessful and revealing at the same time.
Please don't take this personally Walid, It was not you I had in mind, American average Joe is the focus of the article and that is good. Just imagine the potential for backfire when said Joe meets the tangeable gap between every word of hasbara they have ever heard, and the naked facts before their eyes.
The whole secular party town concept effectively self-selects out the CZ element and their dogma blinkers, I think this idea is good, Oscar came up with a great idea the other day for simple posters of faces with the caption 'American' , now the hive has given the ROTW an opportunity they are giving momentum to. Think Judo, the 'gentle way'
All that may be true, but it's still no reason to reject a great opportunity, I think Sun Tzu and Bruce Lee would both approve of exploiting an opportunity for Judo Politics.
I agree with with what you say, and on that basis I think this officially sanctioned and supported push for tourism should be encouraged and nurtured.
'Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves'
after all
"It's Ramallah, not Gaza"
I think this is an excellent idea, this should be encouraged, I'm disappointed that the reaction on the board seems negative.
Respect is due,
Understatement hits the spot every time, I doubt I could have maintained such composure, I agree MarkF, she rocks.
Water is the big issue, the Zionist schemes have always coveted every river basin and aquifer in the Levant for over a Century.
class, I'm going to include that in the next birds and bees chat I have with my teenager.
Hi Hayate, I think Walid is correct in his sober analysis of the polling results; The Pals indulge in similar Jingoism when they hit back at Israel. I think both sides will be more rational once the war is over and the shooting stops. Actually I would like to put that presumption to a test, has anyone seen any SA polling results for pre and post Apartheid?
Part if the issue for creating a solution is getting people to accept that everybody will inevitably be drawn to a new mindset by a new reality, starting the day after. It's a catch-22, a prime example being 'peace plans' which amount to rebranding of the fortifications.
I just got the same result from the UK, maybe MaxB was just too damn good at his job, had to go.
Or maybe Max is a lunch-out when it comes to anything but his job and forgot to comply with some registration BS.
RW, 'Hamas should be spoken to'
would that be a variation on the
'get it into their thick heads'
scheme, the Iron Wall as paternalistic guiding hand for errant natives?
farshtunkener?
I seem to remember we also used Gas against the Kurds.
The first games are usually a bit restrained, as no-one wants to torpedo their chances with a stupid mistake in the early games, beyond that I will say nothing and try and keep my tears off the keyboard.
I thought one of the guiding ideas behind BDS was that of 'Smart Sanctions' . Surely it is not smart to sanction all Israeli contact with the ROTW, the issue at hand is getting Zionists to re/connect with the real world and get smart; An IP ban here, like other dumb sanctions, would be counter-productive, bye bye Israeli realists ( and there are at least a few ), hello off-shore Hasbara from a relocated hive.
IMHO, for the Bob Dylan site to introduce the ban is different to here as it is supplying cultural content, rather than having a political debate.
sorry to exacerbate the off-topicness , I just checked that link and one of the diagrams even seems to suggest the Jewish Gene pool centres around around a druze/cypriot cluster, heading to armenians/georgians. I'll try and return to topic, It's some reasonable maps of the semites, that show how impossible it is to actually define where the Semites begin and end, from a genetic perspective.
I've had a few 'awaiting moderation' comments and I think I've been playing nicely on the whole, so you are not the only one
I think the Fear and Superiority Complex are linked, look at the history of Ethnic-Nationalism, without researching a comprehensive list I'm struggling to think of an example that was not deeply afraid. There is a difference to most examples with Israel, in that the Holocaust occured during the founding decades of the experiment, but indulging the paranoia is not the way to help the paranoid.
Hi lysias this is a good site for all thing 'kharzarian'
link to khazaria.com
it seems very historically focussed and non-politicized
I wish I could remember which post I saw it on, I'll try again, it's worth cut-n-pasting to see it.
link to legalienate.blogspot.com
corr. American Elite is content
I agree with your diagnosis of the majority Israeli mindset, I think it may have been Citizen who linked to this choice assement:
link to legalienate.blogspot.com
eli-prime-minister.html
who ever found it, class find, however I don't think the Israeli tail is completely wagging the American dog towards Armageddon, however much it may seem that way. The America is content with the Status Quo and even the escalation in tension because it fits Don Sam's gameplan and in the long run, is good for business, WW3 is bad for business and Don Sam knows it.
There is IMHO a question over how much control the Don has over the Goon, but I wouldn't be suprised if any warring that does occur will be designed to be contained, i.e. no Israeli nuke strike on Tehran.
Have you seen 'Goodfellas'; I see Israel as Tommy, about to be 'made' any day now, but still a useful idiot in the scheme of things.
hi DJ, I'm sure there's some gaming going on by the Saudis here, of course the situation is complicated by the fact that much of the Sunni controlled Saudi Oil in under Shia inhabited areas.
They're trying as hard as they can, they've got the best writers they can get and still, the award for pure comic class has to go to the
link to cnas.org
Annie pointed out earlier
I've seen very funny stuff that lacerates my own politics many times I don't think they've got a valid enough basic statement to really connect a simple solid gag. Is anyone aware of any surviving Jewish humor from Nazi Germany, I find it impossible to believe the situation would not have produced some comedic resistance.
don't know, I suspect my first and most obvious reply would be inflammatory, so perhaps read this instead:
link to en.wikipedia.org
and what would be the term for Jews who follow volkish ideologies and ethnic supremacist nationialisms.
Clear thinking and rational actions when faced with an unexpected event; Our Politics could do with some these qualities.
It is possible the list is a non-target list, those for whom the political fallout of a fatality might throw out the calculations of mad-dog-deterence/hasbara-needed. e.g. if they had 'accidentally' killed an 'important' American, like the Liberty survivor.
Off Topic, sorry,
Howard Baskerville, never heard of him before and now looking on wiki he's like a Rachel Corrie or Emily Henochowicz of a century ago.
Blue Pearl posted a link to the same video, I'm highly dubious that it's an execution, I'm of no doubt about the brutality but that looks like a pump action single shot with no flash or real 'kick'
the the excusoid is Oslo
that's a sweet irony, not too many of them about.
and no I haven't seen any positive proof of 'paintballs' yet, I'm still waiting on the final versions. I have seen the pepperspray paintball mentioned a number of times, and it would be logical anti-riot weapon though, as the exposed nature of the ship would make traditional tear-gas less effective on deck.
Hi Richard, the autopsy reports 9mm ammunition being used:
'Each of the nine victims on the Mavi Marmara in international waters off the coast of Israel in the early hours of Monday morning was shot at least once and some five or six times with 9mm rounds.
The results also reveal how close the fighting was. Dr Haluk Ince, chair of Turkey's council of forensic medicine (ATK), said: "Approximately 20cm away was the closest. In only one case was there only one entrance wound. The other eight have multiple entrance wounds. [The man killed by a single shot] was shot just in the middle of the forehead with a distant shot."
'
link to guardian.co.uk
The gun itself has a similar profile to the ubiquitous H&K Mp5 that has become so depressingly familiar rather than a folding stock Uzi with a silencer. Looking closely though, there is no guard piece around the barrel, no magazine and the goon appears to make a cocking motion below the barrel axis like a pump-action weapon with every shot. I also don't see any kick or flash, his stance is too casual to be firing a 9mm, he reminds me of myself as a child in an all out war of extermination against whatever garden insect I was picking on at the time. Relentlessly attacking whatever it was with a rain of .177 webley fire until my arms literally ached, fun at the time, and politically educational with regard to the pointlessness of war, live and let live, leave the tarbaby alone etc.
sorry but that is blatently not 4 head shots with a 9mm. It does look like kicking the crap out of someone on the ground and adding some paintball teargas/pepper-spray to remind us all of who is superior.
www.lefigaro.fr/international/2010/06/09/01003-201006 09ARTFIG00460-une-emission-pour-resoudre-le-conflit-israelo- palestinien.php
Michael II over at Shalom-salaam found this little ray of hope, it's about a French tv show with a dozen Israeli and Palestinian youth being locked in a house ala Big Brother, and told to come up with a solution. It's in French though, parlez francais anybody?
link to lefigaro.fr
09ARTFIG00460-une-emission-pour-resoudre-le-conflit-israelo- palestinien.php
Brits, as in British Government, not some other bunch of previously unheard of people called Britains, I have to pinch myself and remember this ain't final yet. I also have to pinch myself that these words are coming from the mouths of Tories ( Conservatives to the ROTW ), and after the self declared progressive regime of Labour positively reeked of Ziocaine abuse and Jerusalem syndrome.
What I recieved through the interweb after a rather more political phone call than usual demonstrated slickness and incisive analysis in the way the raid demonstrated military prowess and common sense. Any home-made Hasbara campaign would bring the Israeli street into direct contact with that mythically frightening concept of the ROTW and the (last bastion of sanity acccording to zionism) American sheeple. I think this plan is good,
for Palestinians,
and Israelis if they wish-it/come to their senses..
way to go, Obomba
I would say every prisoner is entitled to a Red Cross visit of some manifestation, I do believe it is also one of the rules of war under the Geneva Conventions.
Hi Richard,
essentially they do work by banging work by banging chunks together though, that's the problem with interference schemes. Obviously it's a bit more complex than that, as I can testify because so far I've tried everything I can think of, or that is do-able in me shed with a black'n'decker to be precise, and so far all I've got is a really bright flash with a bit of heat. It does make one's head spin a bit though, like being unpleasantly drunk.
The trouble with radio-wave effects is that a simple faraday cage provides protection, and bear in mind how much cold war military gear was proofed against the EMP of an enemy strike. The only way to neutralise a nuke is to physically disable, or dismantle it, violently maybe or otherwise . I would have thought it logical that somewhere in the US Military is a plan for how to deal with an Israel gone rogue, it would have made sense when the deal was set up, do you think Obama has a spoiler for Jerusalem's nuke-frenzy somewhere?
My Uncle used to teach Chinese pottery at Harvard ( the ancient stuff, not some craft class), I grew up with in a Scientific background so I remember references to Harvard in Scientific research and discoveries.
WTF are they doing now, I there some Zionism paper in the entrance exams these days, Harvard seriously looks more like an Insane Asylum everyday, and I never though I would be writing that.
Africans were there first.
hi WJ,
thus is the crux of how to persude Israelis to be smart like the Afrikaners and not Loopy like Nazis. Maybe even without having their mythology bombed into submission, the rational arguments do continue to pull a steady stream of addicts off the gear, better arguments will pull more. I am not looking forward to seeing Israelis come to their senses as the Germans had to, I'd much rather the way we have, but I think they're way past that.
here's an idea, how about an anonymous register of American Jews who would like to consider visiting Israel, moving/returning to Israel or taking Israel to their hearts.-- If Israel re-makes itself to the stated principles of the American Way. Alt_Israel if you will, the purpose would be as a demographic weapon, a measure of the size of the non-zionist mandate.
In Europe most people are used to the idea and practice of sharing nations between nationalities, e.g. a Spaniard can live as a French citizen without issue about spanish culture or their affections for Spain. This looks like the American melting-pot and I'm guessing functions along parallel lines, the only issues arise when the self-evident human rules that stitch the whole thing together are dismissed by part of the group.
I like like that idea homer, the heart modern western world-view is built in multiculturalism, muliti-nationalism and the practice of the melting pot. This works without the ugliness of previous dual-loyalty 'debates' because our nationalism has evolved in the last hundred years ; The common principles of human rights render the argument pointless so long as everybody is on the same universal human wavelength. so maybe a tweak to the slogan re: Loyality to humanity might be good but I can't think of anything snappy right now.
'Jews are just like everybody else, except moreso.'
and so sayeth our moosiah - amen
thankyou for your thought provoking post Conrad and I hope there are some more secret conrads out there in the American South.
I have to say there is a malevolance in Christian Zionism that seems about on par with Al-quaida, at least the Jewish Zionists have an inherent desire to actually live in Israel, with CZ it seems everybody dies on the whim of those comfortably out of range (and out of their minds!?!).
my background is more genteel CofE, focussed on the 'do unto others' bit, which is handy as a Practical Atheist because it concurs with self-evident morality very well.
I'm sorry to say this Mr Weiss, but that sounds spookily like how all this started; Building dreams easily becomes the birthing of nightmares.
When Gordon Brown tried this with his "Britishness" campaign he immediately ran into what I would regard as a similar quandry, what is Britishness? the solution being simple, don't worry, it is what it is and requires no assistance or definition, have faith.
I think the nature of the task and the inherent questions fall foul of the 'Observer effect' , exhibited in the lexicon of physics as Heisenbergs uncertainty principle and other phenomina, and 'Observer-expectancy' in realm of psychology.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I found a good example in Goodhart's Law (bearing in mind recent economic turbulence):
'Goodhart's Law is one of those neat formulations that codifies something I've been trying to put my finger on for years: "once a social or economic indicator or other surrogate measure is made a target for the purpose of conducting social or economic policy, then it will lose the information content that would qualify it to play such a role."
That is, once you start measuring GDP as a way of gauging social welfare, people will start to figure out ways to make GDP go up without improving social welfare (say, by swapping dirty financial derivatives). Once Google starts measuring inbound links as a way of evaluating the importance of web-pages, people will figure out how to increase the inbound links to unimportant pages (splogging, blogspam). And once you measure fat or calorie content as a proxy for the healthfulness of food, manufacturers will figure out how to decrease fat and calories without making the food more healthful (reducing fat by adding sugar, reducing calories by adding poisonous artificial sweeteners).
The law was first stated in a 1975 paper by Goodhart and gained popularity in the context of the attempt by the United Kingdom government of Margaret Thatcher to conduct monetary policy on the basis of targets for broad and narrow money, but the idea is considerably older. It is implicit in the economic idea of rational expectations. While it originated in the context of market responses the Law has profound implications for the selection of high-level targets in organisations.'
link to boingboing.net
One question would Israel get it worse or easier than Britain? easier maybe because they didn't do the 800yrs of colonialisation, the Famine thing, etc.; or worse because the Imperial blowback/distance equations also apply to Israeli proper and its 'worldwide assets', the IRA has plenty of old contacts too .
It was an example of how rational people can behave, the low point I though was the boy whining about his Ipod, oh well, you'd never see SAS or Royal Marines crying about taking a couple of knock from a bunch of activists. There's a schitzoid psyche going on that jumps between cry-baby and psycho; won't see the contradiction, and yet expects the whole world to join the febrile hysteria.
Whereas a Ghandi style non-violent attack wouldn't work with the Nazis and wouldn't work with the Zionist core; it would work with the wider american people, and america can end this whatever the hive might think. Ghandi used the fine upstanding principles of the British Empire to force us out.
If the lie in the minds of mainstreet America can be broken and fundamental American principles, like Liberty, melting-pot etc. be brought into play as a solution Ghandism can work with the Levant.
Progressive Apartheid?
Liberal Apartheid?
"reflect the fact that it is a tertiary U.S. strategic interest "
not a country, not a people, not a religion or ideology, it IS a tertiary U.S. strategic interest. Israel is in the same position as Blackwater, expediency does actually cut both ways.
It's reached from the main MFA Flickr page, and now it's mysteriously vanished, ho hum
someone hacked the MFA page without doubt, they changed it mid-debate and it was hacked.
check out the mfa site and tell me what you think
link to flickr.com
its worth a re-look
from the mfa flickr site;
link to flickr.com
I should add, there would have to be some thought of the framework of the 'laying' in political terms. I cannot see the survivors being fans of hamas or wanting to be seen supporting hamas, however this is an opportunity to hit a chink in the Hasbara machine that they may not see again for a long time. Even if mainstreet USA cannot even acknowledge the event, the rest of the world will know if the RachelCorrie hits the point at which the USS Liberty was attacked by the Israeli Navy on June 8th 1967. If the whole world knows, even the man can't deny.
Sounds great to me, contact the Liberty Vets groups, see how they feel about it, if the idea gains traction in the blogosphere, the dream might grow up to be a Zionists nightmare. The existance of say, a website outlining the plan,( if survivors grant their blessing of course )would require the hive to react, thus bringing even more attention to the history over the mythology and maybe the RachelCorrie could pull it off.
"The anti-Semites shall be our best friends", Herzl was correct about one thing then, look on the bright side.
I suspect the all alone cowboy hasn't worked that one out yet, it's a shame he has such distain for his volkish ideological bretheren.
advocating mass-murder is not an alternate voice, it's an alternate morality.
I am also interested to see the counterpunch links, I would also be up for debate on the neccesity or otherwise of military force and the nature of the resistance, that is impossible when every conversation hangs over a pit of infinite bloodlust. Black humor Yes, Satanism No
are GC/DJ and DS operating out of the same hive?
I like debate, it's a traditional bloodsport here in blighty, whereas I can understand the reluctance of the real people, Yonira, Rachel etc. to face up to the 24hr onslaught of pointed questions here, rather than 'have a life', I can't understand why hive central seems determined to undermine their positions and make life harder, make the task more thankless for them.
DJ have you met GC
Dear Santa,
I must firstly apologise for my uncalled for outburst of inappropriate critique, you will remember, please forgive me I was young and suffering from a heightened sense of entitlement. I also beg for mercy about that 'no longer believing in Santa' stuff, I'm sorry.
please, please, please can I have this year, a Jewish Intifada , I know it will be good for everybody including the Ziocaine addicts, and much more constructive than many of my previous requests.
Yours Sincerely, a true re-believer
D
P.S. we kind of need it now rather than in 7 months time
most of which is under traditionally Shia inhabited areas.
there is one interesting pic up there
link to flickr.com
If they are duplicating an existing archive (or some of it anyway ) wouldn't the images still be listed under archived dates?
those three look to me from a different photoset to the others, why? they are on their own without a pile of similar pictures as the knives and sticks are.
the mid-analysis data manipulation is more intrigueing than the not overly dangerous objects, I'd rather have what the IDF had over a stick and a catapult any day, or an angle grinder with a very long cable, perhaps a generator strapped to the back, imagine the guy in 'the Evil Dead' but less effective.
The images were listed in the archive sections as Febuary 7th 2006 as well as the EXIF data on the individual photos.
there was also a 2003 archive I didn't explore that no longer exists, apart from a reference in my screengrabs.
They did show the angle-grinder,vest and nightsight shots clearly archived under 2006 and then repeated along with the main crop of pictures as 2010. now they show:
'There's nothing available to you in this view of IsraelMFA's archive.
This is probably because:
IsraelMFA didn't take any photos or video on 7th February 2006,
The dates have been changed,
Content has been deleted, or,
You clicked on a 'taken in' date link from something private that you can only see because it is in the pool of a group that you belong to. (Private things don't show up in people's archives, except when you're looking at your own.) '
the 2003 archive has dissappeared too
p.s it'll be interesting to see if any of this miraculously changes over time.
link to flickr.com
link to flickr.com
link to flickr.com
compare to
link to flickr.com
link to flickr.com
link to flickr.com
look for pattern, repetition and some contempt for the intelligence of the ROTW