Total number of comments: 73 (since 2010-02-02 20:10:42)
unverified__519ch9bb
Student living in Israel
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"Yea, so did the Zionists"
OK , please explain, prove, cite, whatever - how exactly did the Zionists collaborate with the Nazis? (without citing Brenner who has been exposed as a fruad, and without citing obscure letters) Was there any exchange of funds or weapons or anything of the sort? Were the Nazis themselves Zionists?
this should be good
And you are a pathetic, insecure, insignificant "little jihadist". Why wont you cite any organizations or authors who are NOT considered on the fringe? Historical record? You know jack shit about history. And why waste time looking for the proper documents when you deny even the most basic truths such as the fact that the mufti was a collaborator with the Nazis. When you try to refute well established truths ( the link was totally ridiculous) you end up looking like an even bigger ass.
As long as there are hypocritical, self-righteous assholes like yourself posting bullshit about Israel, there will be people like me to expose your idiocy.
You mean AFTER the state was established and the Zionists accepted money from the new GERMAN government. No Zionist that I know ever accepted anything from the Nazis and you would have to come up with some evidence for such a huge (and utterly stupid) claim. Considering that the Nazis publicly supported the grand mufti of Jerusalem, your comment seems pretty goddam ignorant.
And I have no problem classifying you as evil and self hating. Obviously you have some unresolved personality issues if you think that 99% of those who share your heritage are evil. Not all anti-Zionists are anti-semites but all anti-Semites are definitely anti-Zionist. Surely you must be aware that you share your views mostly with people who feel that the jews are greedy, power-hungry, communist conspirators who are planning to take over the world.
I have already explained to you the astounding difference between colonialism/imperialism and Zionist settlement. There is not a shade of resemblance. One is about increasing national and individual wealth by settling new lands and exploiting indigenous populations, while Zionist settlement had NO parent country or power that was financing it and was about re-settlement in a place where jews would not have to worry about being helpless against anti-semitism. Furthermore there was no exploitation of the indigenous population since many of the arabs welcomed the settlers (until the Balfour declaration and the increased influx of jews into the area) Its like the difference between a dog and an airplane.
The refugee problem was created by Israel AND the surrounding Arab countries. They bare just as much blame in the creation of the problem and if you read Benny Morris, you would know that. And there was NO ethnic cleansing either since there was no coordinated effort to uproot the population only an effort to win an existential war.
You are such a high-and-mighty propagandist (possibly working for Hamas?) that you thought I was using the old anti-semite card when actually I wasn't. I know the difference between a jew-hater and and Israel - hater, despite the line being very fuzzy at times.
"The bombing of the Sudan convoy suggests that Mahbouh’s supply network was infiltrated some time ago.. "
No it does not. It means that the IDF was successful in finding the route. You don't always need someone on the inside to get information.
"...Israel’s much-repeated goal is to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza, the weapons themselves are perhaps less of a concern than is finding the means to weaken or disable Hamas."
Stopping the flow of weapons IS a means of weakening Hamas. It certainly doesn't weaken them politically.
". If Israel really wanted to effectively control the flow of weapons into Gaza it would never have imposed a blockade that resulted in the construction of thousands of smuggling tunnels under the Rafah border."
And you think that there wouldn't be any underground weapons smuggling if there was no blockade? That is quite a leap of logic.
I think it is much more reasonable to assume that the only difference would be that the tunnels would be used exclusively for weapons, and more channels for smuggling would be open.
But I know, I know, everything is Israels fault right? Those evil bastard Zionists...
you have to copy paste the entire link
why don't you check this out.
link to mfa.gov.il
The official Israeli response to Goldstone. I know most of you are skeptic of anything the Israelis do or say so go ahead and fact check everything you possibly can. Most of the stuff actually cannot be checked unless you were actually in Gaza or the IDF, but still it is interesting to note that the basic argument is that because the purpose of the commission was so highly politicized, almost no neutral information was taken in the original report.
While it is wrong to assume that all Israeli attacks are justified is it absolutely wrong to equate the Israeli govt. to Hamas or any other terrorist organization. Hamas targets civilian populations, and it makes no apologies for that , making it a clear-cut terrorist organization. There is no argument about that. Israel targets Hamas and other organizations who use terrorism for their well-publicized aims of destroying Israel. Now obviously if you don't accept the legitimacy of Israel as a democracy and Jewish state (or a state for the jews, however you want to call it) than you will accept the Hamas doctrine that everything done by Israel is terrorism. This simplistic rationalization of murder is widespread throughout the Palestinian population. It is a very well-known fact that inside most Palestinian houses in the WB and Gaza, there is a portrait of at least one suicide bomber , usually enshrined in some way. Because everything Israel does is terror, it can't be considered terrorism to fight back, right?
Wrong. It is terrorism simply because it easily fits the definition of terrorism while almost nothing the IDF does could qualify as such. If there would ever be a unilateral cessation of terrorism by all Palestinian organizations, then a two-state solution would be right around the corner.
The article is sad but true. And to all you anti-Zionists hoping to use it as ammunition, think again. His point of view somewhat echoes mine as well as other liberal Zionists. He is simply pointing out the incompetence of Israeli leadership, a feeling shared by many in Israel, perhaps even the majority. Ayalon made a complete ass of himself twice, and Lieberman is an uneducated ex-mafia thug who is unapologetically racist. There actions give posters like Avi and Shmuel extra talking points even though they are not really reflective of Israeli society.
I agree with this article completely because sadly at the end of the day Israel makes so many mistakes that it becomes hard to defend many of them and criticism of Israeli policies is confused with delegitimizing Israels right to exist.
Dissappointed in Dersh...he could have made his point without using that language
Oh so you accept my right to live? Gee thanks, how charitable of you!
I don't have the time to keep this up... I actually have a life. And Im not gonna bring you the transcripst of the debate, I'm sure you can find it yourself. I will say that Finkelstein was very frustrated the whole time, raising his voice and acting like an imbecile the whole debate while Dershowitz was calm and composed. Usually the guy with the calmer demeanor at the end of the debate has won the debate. Watch it for yourself.
And the fact that you just assume to know more about my roots (calling me a european convert) than me (who has studied genetics at Uni level but that is beside the point) speaks way more of you than it does of me. Your arguments simply have no legs to stand on.
I will leave you losers with a couple thoughts and then you won't have to worry about hearing from me again...I think I've wasted enough time trying to get through to your thick skulls. First and foremost the character of the state of Israel as a jewish state and a state for jews will NOT change. Like it or not. You can argue about your revisionist history all you want - for every historian and academic that says one thing, there is another that says the opposite. Instead of whining and bitching like teenagers who don't get permission to take dads car, why don't you do something productive with your time? Why don't you chose a battle that actually has relevance to your lives instead of picking on the Israelis. Stop being such little whiny bitches
"Israel regularly kidnaps Palestinian and Lebanese civilians"
I suppose that would depend on your definition of civilian. Apparently yours is a bit skewed.
"Tell us how Dershowitz ‘kills him’ in the debate."
By systematically refuting every single allegation thrown out him.
"You already told us that we either accept your premise of the ‘right to exist’ of a Jewish State in Palestine or not"
Thats right. You either accept that I exist (reality) or try to erase me (not gonna happen).
Again you are so wrong. I know you would like to believe that your analysis is accurate but in fact the shelling started at the same time as the kidnapping and escalated exponentially when the convoy sent in crossed the border (used as the excuse "the Israelis have invaded!") meaning that the Hezbos were one step ahead of us the whole time...and none of that is contradicted in the Winograd report. You are clueless and hopeless my "friend".
"His parents lived through the holocaust"
Which is exactly why HE should have some respect. Dershowitz kills him in the debate I saw, and Benny Morris also lays him to waste in the video I posted previously. If he supports the destruction of Israel (by supporting the Hezbollah among other things) than he supports the death of millions of jews. This seems to me like a jew that hates jews , another words self-hate. He may not ever admit to it but the fact that he is jewish eats away at his soul and he cannot come to terms with it. Just like Shmuel
"No matter how you look at it, Israel initiated a full-blown conflict"
Oh my lord that is hilarious.... Any way you look at it the Hezbos kidnapped and murdered two soldiers and immediately began bombarding northern Israel (military as well as civilian targets) before we even knew what hit us. There's about a million residents of Northern Israel that can attest to the fact that rockets were falling before they even knew that soldiers had been kidnapped. The Israeli response was initially a single convoy sent in to track the kidnappers and when they realized that it was a trap we decided enough is enough. Hezbollah continued to fire rockets even after the Israeli withdrawal with the tiny strip of land that actually used to be Syria (sheba farms) as their pitiful excuse for the attacks. You really have the nerve to defend the Hezbollah? This is why I ask about your clear personal identity problems...
"I’m not sure when planning of the second Lebanon war began, but it was certainly planned well in advance of the specific casus belli."
Do you live in Israel? Because it is a well known fact that the IDF was caught completely off guard by the whole thing and that the entire army was in dissaray for most of the fighting. Many army personnel were discharged because of their failures in that war and yet you CHOOSE to believe that we planned the whole thing. So we are all supposed to believe that all the mistakes and shortcomings of the IDF during that war were intentional in order to make it look like none of it was planned? You can't actually be THAT stupid....
"Your definition of colonialism is (willfully) simplistic in the extreme"
Oh so the entire worlds definition is wrong but yours is right? And then you say that the jews were to the british what the Portuguese colonists in Brazil were to the Portuguese? Are you serious?
You guys are what muslims call "the lesser jihad". How does it feel to be part of "the lesser jihad"?
Ok even if these two events were carried out by jews, they both pale in comparison to the attacks carried out by arabs. Should I list them for you?
By the way, I'm curious - do you believe (like Finkelstein does) that Israel was planning the second Lebanon war all along since the withdrawal? Do you (as Finkelstein undoubtably does) hate yourself for being born a jew?
"Israel controls Gaza. It controls the borders. The land and the sea"
What choice do we have if they continually smuggle in weapons meant to kill innocent people? If I'm in a war should I wait until my enemy reloads his weapon before I continue to fight?
"my friend, you don’t trace your ancestry through your first name – but your surname."
Obviously, but if someone is trying to learn something about someones name (as you were trying to do) it would be just as natural to look at a first name as it would a last name.
And yes of course the Palestinians are semitic! So am I! If you would actually try and listen to what I'm saying you would see that I don't deny their right to live here. All I'm saying is you can't have a reasonable knowledge of history and deny the Jeiwish people's link to this land.
And I hate to break it too you but we are here for good, no matter how much you hate us and try and make us go away. The only way we're going away is WW3 and trust me I have a great life so I don't want that...
Hey Shmulik - neither of the articles even mention anything about who is responsible for the explosions! So naturally, blame the jews...typical. Extrapolation is useful in math, not politics.
"Virtually everything you’ve said here is bullshit, edan. Educate yourself about your country’s history."...
I would offer the same advice to you. You should go and meet an actual Israeli and talk to them. You might find out that they're not as evil as you like to believe.
You see as jews (I know this is hard for you to swallow) we try and hold ourselves to a higher moral standard. Palestinians take advantage of this every day, every hour in countless incidents with soldiers which are not shown in the media. That is why when we still didn't have a state, we NEVER bombed buses or cafe's or anything other than military targets. The various so-called "atrocities" commited by Stern, Irgun and Hagana (yes I had heard about them because like I said I have read Morris and wanted to see if here knew anything that I didn't know - turns out no) were not at all comparable to the random acts of violence against innocent people which is advocated by Hamas and which they will probably never condemn...But we'll never hear a cross word from you about Hamas now will we?
Oh you are so pathetic, believing in a lost cause because it is "trendy". You claim to have all the facts when actually you pick and chose to support your claims. You continually use terms that are completely irrelevant propaganda such as "colonizer" without facing the plain reality that Hamas and the Hezbollah are being used by the Iranians who want to "wipe Israel off the map". As long as people want to wipe us out we will be forced to continually fight for our survival. As long as there are people like you out there (and people like your buddies the Hamasnikim and Hasan Nasrallah) we will fight you. Hopefully a new generation of Palestinians will arise who like my generation are sick of fighting.
Oh and here's some names and stuff for you to check out:
link to meforum.org
,
link to jcpa.org
Raphael Israeli, Michael Oren, Yehoshua Porat, Kenneth Levin and Bernard Lewis
Once you read other academics point of view you might actually broaden your own.
No actually I was talking about my first name. Taken from that old book that everyone either loves to love or loves to hate...(instead of really seeing it for what it is)
My last name actually is an Americanization (an attempt at least) of a Russian/Lithuanian name. If you must know...
But yes, I truly believe that I am semitic. Crazy, huh...And even if my direct ancestry was not from the hebrews, my culture and my identity are directly linked to that piece of land. And no self-respecting jew will apologize for that!
Oh I KNOW so... Israel might have many enemies but thank god our evil jewish minds know physics!
What the hell is a "euro fucking name" ? My name is hebrew, you know that language which was spoken by the ancient Hebrews and Canaanites...
OK I'll try to make it very simple for you - America was a British colony. Brazil was a Portuguese colony. South Africa was a Dutch colony....do you get it?
I suppose you would claim that Israel is an American colony? Were the settlers sent by America....
Jeez I thought it would be a bit easier explaining to you your simple misuse of the word.
So what is your solution genius?
". Israel’s fucked and your leaders are lying to you about it. It’s so over rover – just a question of time."
Maybe, but I assure you if we're going down we're taking the whole world with us
"There is one side that has ethnically cleansed the other, one side that is occupying the other, one side that is slowly killing the other with a strangling siege, and one side that recently killed 1400 men women and children"
How can Israel be blamed more than the Palestinians if we are willing to compromise and they are not? One side educates its children on the sacredness of being a shaheed and the other side unilaterally withdraws from Gaza. One side fires rockets at schoolchildren and the other side tries to defend itself. One side demands 900 prisoners in exchange for 1!
My bad! got me there! you can look me up on facebook if you want to check my authenticity. Aint got nothing to hide...
edan z. hollombe
(Im the only one in the world)
"Yes, the Hebrews were Canaanites, and more to the point, their descendants were still there when the Zionists showed up to drive them out of the homeland they had occupied for millennia."
So now you're saying that the Palestinians are the true descendants of the Hebrews? Thats just funny...
Where are these Palestinians who are being forced out of their homes as we speak...? Even the new settlements ( which are wrong) are built on land which 99% of the time was previously uninhabited.
"Except, ethnic cleansing will do. Genocide not required"
Thats just it. We will not allow ourselves to be ethnically cleansed or murdered! We're here to stay so I suggest you learn to live with it.
And once again your use of the word "colonialism". On behalf of whom were we colonizing? The British colonized because they had a place to bring back all of the raw materials and other things from the colonies to - Britain! Who did the Zionists bring their goods to? Obviously you fall into the trap of using words that have a negative connotation but little or no relevance. It does sound cool though, to call someone an evil colonialist...
Regarding your claims of who attacked who -
According to one Hebrew University scholar who is in the doctorate program there (named Seth Frantzman)
Thirty-nine Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa’s oil refinery on December 30, 1947. On January 16, 1948, 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion. On February 22, 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem’s Rehov Ben-Yehuda. And on February 29, 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry.
– Thirty-five Jews were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre on April 13. And 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion on May 15, 1948, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc.
– In Arab countries more than 100 Jews were also massacred and synagogues were burned in Aleppo and Aden, driving thousands of Jews from their homes.
there is more but I'll keep it at that for right now
"Ben-Gurion always thought that a sizable Arab population inside a ‘Jewish State’ would be a dangerous fifth column."
Wrong again. I said that the war could not be won with a fifth column in our midst. The sentence that I refer to in the declaration of Independence was totally true. The arabs of Haifa for example were urged by many jewish leaders including Ben Gurion to stay. And I should correct myself - most arabs chose to fight, most Palestinians had been fighting the jewish presence since way earlier.
"What I’m understanding from your perspective is that the ends justified the means."
In certain situations - absolutely! Palestinians blowing up buses or firing rockets are a means with no end. That is not how statehood will be achieved, if ever.
"The Partition was unfair"..
Seeing as how the area designated for jews had a jewish majority - I don't think so. Do you dispute this well known fact?
"Why did they have to get out for you?"
They didn't . All they had to do was accept me as a new neighbor. And let me live in the areas that the UN decided to give me.
You really are a piece of work.... If you could only convert your hatred of Israel into something worthwhile...
"Morris has revealed himself to be a racist defender of ethnic cleansing, both of the Palestinians..."
That is wrong on so many levels. Recognizing the immense cultural differences between jews and arabs is not racism. And he does not defend any ethnic cleansing because "ethnic cleansing" implies a systematic effort but there was no systematic effort - the orders from Ben Gurion were simply to use any means necessary. And he said that if the jews would have expelled the Palestinians completely BOTH nations would be better off today. How does he rationalize this ? Simple - the situation would have been completely different at the end of the war...Congrats , you get an A for quoting out of context.
I suggest you check out what he says here :
link to youtube.com
i guess that means I got through to you on a certain level?
i meant fuel to the fire...
"There’s some really bad stuff going on, and if you live in Israel, you owe it to yourself and others to open your mind and study."
I agree 100% and I even saw some of it firsthand when I was on duty in the WB. That still doesn't mean that the blame falls upon Israel. What I've been trying to say here from the get go is that BOTH sides bear equal responsibility for the current situation. Blaming one side only adds fire to the flame of the other side and THAT is bias. Not to mention inaccurate.
No but I did actually serve in the same company as the two soldiers who were kidnapped/murdered on that dreaded day in the summer of '07... I love it how Nasrallah always talks about "Israeli aggression" as if all we want is to go to war and gain more territory from Lebanon. Sad thing is most of you fools actually believe it...
go talk to some Israelis dude...
"Gosh Witty, how are Israelis “unique”? I thought they were just people like you and me? "
I know it makes you guys SO angry when we say stuff like that. Thing is its true. Can you name another nation/people/religion/whatever with a similar history?
I guess you're right - we israelis and jews are all despicable war mongers who only care about ourselves, with no regard for human life or dignity. Wait a minute what was that thing called the ten commandments...is that also Zionist fabrication?
"The whole fucking universe isn’t about the Hebrews you know" - do I detect a bit of jealousy? Its true that many jews have a strong connection with their heritage and often define themselves as jews first and foremost. To someone on the outside it probably feels like you are left out, but let me assure you that I'm sure you can find lots of things to be proud of in your own heritage. Ours is just well documented because we tend to have a high literacy rate among other things (sorry again for the jewish supremacy but its true...)
"It was CANAAN before it was Judea, right?" - Im SO glad you made that point! Do you know that archeologists now believe that the ancient Canaanites WERE the Hebrews! It is also a known fact that jews all over the world, including from Europe have common genetic markers with certain arab populations in the Middle East (from my Uni studies I can elaborate on that...) Don't take my word for it - see for yourself! Of course you will probably dismiss it as more Zionist propaganda because obviously you've already made up your mind on the subject...
Besides, the Canaanites do not exist anymore, Hebrews do.
Look we can argue history forever...the point is we are living in now. And right now the vast majority of the palestinians do not accept our right to live in our homes. We accept (by and large) their right to a state. We recognize that they are not going anywhere, and many of us also recognize that our handling of the situation was not best... I'm not so sure that they recognize the same. What I'm saying is - if you want the jews out of "palestine" you'll have to literally kill us all. If you're OK with that , thats your problem buddy...
Its actually a lot simpler. Either you believe in the right of the state of Israel to exist as a homeland and safe-haven for jews in the ancient land of the hebrews - or you don't. (I purposefully do not refer to it as "the ancient land of Palestine" because the Romans were the first to give it that name, in order to mock the jews after their victory. Before it was Palestine - and this I hope you will at least admit to - it was Judea).
Goldstone does (despite his mediocre report), Segev does, Morris does, and Shlaim and Pappe most certainly do not.
"To be a Zionist means rejecting the most basic facts about the Jewish religion and tradition".
So I guess now we should call you "the great Rabbi Mooser"? Because apparrently you know more about Judaism than 99.99% of all REAL rabbis....lololol
As far as the settler woman and the kid, that is just sick. But again, that doesn't reflect most jews in Israel. As far as the first picture (encaptioned "IDF soldiers beat Palestinian"), this is precisely what I am talking about- thank you! A perfect example of a picture taken without any previous knowledge of what happened previously. How do you know that the soldiers were not attacked by the guy? How do you know the context? How do you know the guy didn't try to stab the soldier? Because you are ignorant.
And yet you still haven't said anything I haven't heard before. As for Morris, check out what he says about Shlaim
link to tnr.com
And plan dalet (taken from your own sources) was drawn up in early March 1948. Well AFTER the arab seige of Jerusalem had already begun. To paraphrase Morris, Ben-Gurion understood that the war for independence would not be won if there was a sizable arab population within the borders of what was partitioned to the jews. He also understood that without territorial continuity the war could not be won. In that sense he was right, and if it wasn't for plan dalet, there would be no state of Israel and all of the jews would have been expelled or much much worse.
BTW you should check out Moriss' latest.
And Deir Yassin may not have been used as a base for the arab legion but it sure as hell killed a lot of jews who were on their way to Jerusalem with supplies.
"Right off the bad, you began this discussion with the Exodus narrative of a poor helpless Jewish State (emotional blackmail) being attacked for no reason, randomly, by an Arab barbarian horde. "
When did I write something even close to that? I really start to question your reading comprehension skills when you write stuff like that.
" your point that relations grew worse after WWI and the Balfour declaration is one that supports the anti-Zionist position–Arabs became frightened and resentful when they realized the Zionists had teamed up with their British colonial overlords. "
How exactly did they "team up"? Given the white paper, and the well documented lack of cooperation between the british and the jews. If they were such a team, why would jewish terrorists target british military sites?
Another example of trying to justify the actions of the arab states and the palestinians based on faulty reasoning. You actually fall prey to the very same kind of thing that you wrote about in the preceding paragraph. Zionist actions justify atrocities against the jews?
Of course I know settlers personally. Most of them are really good people on an individual level. And I can remember at least one incident in recent memory where a settler who murdered palestinians was tried and convicted. And if those incidents do occur as frequently as you claim, can you show me footage of these things?
You see I have a big problem. I am skeptic by nature and do not accept what people tell me if it sounds wrong to me unless I am shown irrefutable proof.
(btw Hai beTel Aviv!)
Actually if you look at all the wars throughout human history most(the great majority) were not caused by religion. Rome wanted wealth and land, same as Alexander the great, same as Ghengis Khan, same as Mussolini...etc. Religion has been used as an excuse for many wars, true, but in my opinion to blame religion is a bit naive. It is after all HUMANS who kill each other. It may be that humans often misinterpret religions to fit in with their own greed but to blame religion is too easy... After all "the purpose of religion is to teach people compassion" - Dalai Lama
"But I do have a mega problem with Jews/Israelis who deny this same right to the Palestinians".
So do I!
(you see, Zionists are not all that bad!)
Settlers get away with murder (not literally) all the time. I'm not denying that, I'm just saying that that particular scenario is completely imagined. Settlers (who again I do not agree with ideologically on any level) do not just throw stones at the palestinians for the heck of it with IDF soldiers looking on. There is a lot more to each individual incident than meets the eye. Of course the activists who report these things are usually not aware of the circumstances and of course they starting point is an extreme anti-Israel bias, so I would advise you to take those reports with a grain of salt. We all see what we want to see sometimes.
Any attempt to equate Zionism and Nazism is truly despicable. May as well spit on the graves of those who died in the holocaust...
Actually I have seen these things with my own eyes. I have friends who served in Lebanon 2 in '07 who can say the same of the Hezbollah. In Dershowitz's movie you can see it as clear as day. If you would like, I can describe for you 3 different instances from when I served where I saw firsthand how terrorists use the civilian population. Of course we get it wrong sometimes, but thats what happens in an unconventional war. Stop the blockade in Gaza you say? OK, stop hoarding the money that is sent there (much of it comes from Israel!!) and instead of using it for weapons, why not use it for infrastrucure or education?
I think you need to stop buying in to palestinian propaganda...
"In the last half of the 20th century many conflicts around the world were interpreted in racial terms even though their origins were in the ethnic hostilities that have long characterized many human societies (e.g., Arabs and Jews, English and Irish). " - Taken from encyclopedia Britannica.
In fact scientifically there is no such thing as a "race". It is true that many jews hold a "jewish supremacy" world view which I despise, but show me one ethnic group that doesn't have a sense of pride. Also, given the remarkable and unique history of the jews, it is easy to understand how this comes about. It is also true that fundamentalist muslims (such as the entire Hamas organization) aspire to enforce Islamic law on the entire world. This is why when they say that they are willing to accept the '67 borders, one has to take it with a grain of salt. Notice that you will always without exception hear them using the term "hudna" and not "salaam" - the former meaning (temporary) cease-fire, the latter meaning peace.
"You make it seem like the Arab armies attacked Israel RANDOMLY for NO REASON"
Of course there was a reason! The thought of a jewish state in what they considered arab (muslim) territory was inconceivable!
The problem with people like you is that you have nothing to fight for in your life so you choose a battle which you have no connection with and you choose the underdog because it is much cooler to root for the underdog (Actually given the greater historical context I believe that the jews are the underdog). You surround yourself with information which you could not possibly have double-checked (even you yourself admitted that you don't know very many jews, so obviously you have never been to Israel, never looked at the IDF archives, never read a newspaper in hebrew, never talked to an army officer, etc..) which serves as your pathetic ammunition in your battle. Its a waste of time to even try and debate people like you
Oh come on, do you even know that Tom Segev is a Zionist? I actually agree with most of what Segev says. Its not me on the high horse - I'm open to new points of view. But most of what I'm reading here is absolute horseshit.
Everything in that statement is 100% true. If you don't believe me than maybe its because what I'm saying doesn't neatly fit in with your world view.
And what exactly did you look at when examining Judaism, I am curious? Did you actually talk to any jews about judaism?
This is not the time for a religion vs. science debate, but you might be surprised to knoe that most jews I know have no problem reconciling between the two. And I still don't understand how Judaism is racist if it is not a race, and in fact includes different races.
"As RoHa has said here, if self-determination and Statehood require territory, then Jews have no right to self-determination."
And I suppose you worship RoHa? Jews do have a right to self determination and everybody who knows an ounce of history understands why. One reason is that no one but jews can defend the jews from assholes like Cliff.
"deir yassin had proclaimed it’s neutrality and had lived up to it"
yeah right, you keep believing that...
"Every day in the WB settlers throw stones at Palestinians, as the IDF looks on and protects them, preventing the victims from defending themselves."
That is just complete propaganda, bullshit,lies, etc...
"That, of course, is the problem with the one state solution–there might be many people on both sides who don’t like the Other and don’t want to live with the Other."
That may be the only accurate sentence you have ever typed on the subject. This means there can only be a two state solution - we are not leaving and neither are they.
I know that there is actual footage of Hamasniks firing rockets from schools and hospitals and other densely populated areas.
How is my comment innacurate? I could see why you would think its racist but is it racist to say that Armenians don't like the Turks?
"there are a lot of different posters here with broad knowledge and a far more objective perspective than you imagine. "
so far I've seen more of the same "Zionists are scum" lies and distortion.
Obviously you are not actually reading my posts because I very clearly stated that I cannot and do not justify massacres. And I know that massacres took place because I have read Benny Morris (and heard him lecture) and I also know that their was no systematic ethnic cleansing. The arab atrocities against jews before 1948 were also used as scare tactics.
And I also know that the palestinians will never accept a jewish state or even a state for jews (which is actually the same thing but because of your ignorance I will humor you) on even one inch of what is now Israel.
Lets assume you are factually correct. Did you ever ask yourself why they carried out these massacres. Was not the context a war for survival when most of the jews fighting had had their families wiped out in Europe?
And I have read much different accounts of what the relations were between the early Zionists and the arabs. I have also spoke with arabs who speak of the relative harmony before WW1 and the Balfour declaration.
And yet you haven't refuted a single argument of mine. I totally agree that its not black and white, and I actually know more than most of the posters here, in my opinion. Can you provide evidence for these attrocities commited by the Hagana? WHat did Ahad Ha'am write about that - I am curious....
And I bet you don't know enough about the crimes comitted by their side. By the way , unlike their side I ADMIT that I have committed crimes and mistakes.
Actually YES. One thing that you learn early on in the IDF is that a rock can KILL. If its me or him, well...you know...
BTW when was the last time that that scenario actually happened???
Can you show me some of these statements? You do know that sometimes Hamas terrorists (or "freedom fighters" as you probably refer to them) use schools, houses, and even ambulances and hospitals...
I have also come across Palestinians being mistreated I have to admit/... It is a problem (mostly perpetrated by the border police as you probably know). I am not proud of certain things I have seen and participated in. But according to the Israel bashers on sites such as these you would think that all the Israeli soldiers are bloodthirsty savages with no regard for human life whatsoever. Sorry but thats just totally WRONG.
the nastiest thing I said in all of my posts was "einstein". Should I quote for you all the nasty remarks that were directed at me?
There is no official statement from the man himself (santana) and as of right now the show is delayed and will be rescheduled for a later date, according to the shows producer Shuki Weis.
OK so who started the fighting? Did the early Zionists commit any attrocities? Actually they did not because it is a pretty well-known fact that until WW1 the early Zionists and the Palestinians (at that time they were still refered to as arabs living in the British mandate) got along rather well. It is only until two things happened that the relations went sour - 1) Haj-Amin Hussein was "appointed" grand mufti of Jerusalem, and 2) the Balfour declaration. When more settlers came in the 30's and 40's , arab xenophobia of jews started to reach peak levels.
Lets take as an example the massacre at Deir Yassin. Yes it is true that the Stern gang (not the Hagana which would go on to become the IDF) commited atrocities in the village but if you look a little closer you will find that it was not just out of blood lust (contrary to what you obviously believe, we jews do not enjoy murder). You see the jewish community in Jerusalem was under siege and Deir Yassin overlooked the one road which could be used to bring in supplies. The bombardment of the jewish envoys by that village is what prompted the massacre. Again, I am not justifying it, but at least, unlike yourself I look at the bigger picture.
It is obvious to me that you have an axe to grind against Zionism and jews as well - don't kid yourself.
Hey Einstein, how exactly can it be racist if Judaism is not a race?
He was acquitted of murder because his initial reaction was the correct one. The girl crossed the barrier of the fort and thus was percieved as a threat and he was justified in shooting her. After being initially acquitted, the army opened a second investigation. link to washingtonpost.com
And please, PLEASE introduce me to ONE SINGLE Palestinian who lives in the WB or Gaza that favors a 2 state solution. Maybe I am uninformed about that because I am unaware that they exist.
Regarding your last statement - please explain to me what the jews should have done in 1948 when we were attacked.
and did you ever encounter anything that would lead you to believe that the IDF intentionally targets civilians? Because I never encountered anything remotely close to that. And I know personally IDF air force pilots who dropped flyers in Hezbollah neighborhoods warning them that they were about to get bombed! Have you ever heard of any other air force doing that? Of course that stuff is all left out of the mainstream media reports....
As an Israeli-American living in Israel (for the past 13 years) it is obvious to me that most of the posters on this anti-Zionist site are FAR from informed. In my mind it is Santana who is the coward - afraid that uninformed, misled, "trendy" anti-Zionists (who lets face it, usually but not always means anti-Semitic) will no longer see him as a peace-loving ex-hippie. I know there is a strong chance that my post will not be displayed but still - I have to call you guys out on a number of issues if no one else will.
Let me start by saying that I am and have always been left-wing on almost every issue. I support Obama, I am 100% against the settlements and I am definitely for a 2 state solution as soon as possible. That being said, I believe it is totally false to portray the IDF as a brutal, heartless organization. Having personally served, I can testify to the fact that upon recieving a rifle (or any weapon for that matter), all soldiers must participate in educational activities (on a regular basis) whose purpose is to clarify what is called "purity of arms". These types of activities are usually a discussion by the soldiers about the morality of what they are doing and the possible scenarios which they might find themselves in. I challenge anyone to show me any other army in the world that educates its soldiers to that extent on the issue of morality. There are always incedents of soldiers abandoning their morality and officers as well, but I know that these are isolated incidents and they are almost always brought to a military tribunal (for example the case of the officer who unloaded his magazine on a 12 year old girl to make sure she was dead - he was later put in jail).
I could go on here, but I just want to clarify my point and see whether or not the administrators will post it - I know I am not the kind of poster who is welcome on these sites.
The point is, Israel is not perfect-far from it, but it definitely has a right to exist and Zionism is NOT a scam, NOT racism and NOT immoral. All it is is the belief that jews have a right to live in freedom and (relative)security as they once did 2000 years ago. To deny our historical connection is to deny history - you may as well deny the holocaust (in fact most of those who deny one also deny the other). We cannot deny the great tragedy that has befallen the Palestinians (who of course did not refer to themselves as such until the earliest Zionists came - in that respect Palestinian nationality is actually indebted to Zionism but that is another story), but we are not responsible for it. To quote Benny Morris, "You can't make an omelet without breaking the eggs" - meaning yes bad things happened but this was the price to be paid. The Arab Palestinians were given an outstretched hand in the Israeli declaration of Independence but instead chose to fight. The refugees are a consequence of arab rejectionism.
But lets put aside the past and focus on now. Now most Israelis, even most of the right-wing, are willing to accept a two state solution. Many, like myself, even call for a complete withdrawal from the West Bank. But how many Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are willing to compromise? I have met many Israeli-Arabs who are very moderate and reasonable people who favor an end to the conflict in the form of two states. I have yet to meet , or even HEAR OF a Palestinian in Gaza or the West Bank who does not want a single state named Palestine. In a perfect world jews and arabs would live together as equals in a binational Isra-stine. But the world is not perfect and maybe that may happen one day but first we need to learn to live as neighbors before we become brothers. Please people - don't let your noble ideas about humanity and morality to get in the way of common sense and reality.