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Total number of comments: 452 (since 2009-09-02 15:06:24)

edwin

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  • Why I support a one state solution and still consider myself a Zionist
    • I think you may wish to use another example other than Japan. I rather suspect that the nationals of Japan are not the majority of citizens one normally sees.

      I think that there is a subtle difference between ethnic nationalism and a society with a very hight amount of ethnic/cultural/religious similarity. If a country is open to ethnic/cultural/religious change as the population changes then it is not the same thing as the Zionist project and what Becca Strober seems to be getting at. I don't know for sure, but I suspect Japan is open to change as the population changes - though I don't know what their relationship with their native population is, other than from small bits that I have read.

    • "Jewish self-determination is just as legitimate as other peoples’ desire to self-determine..."

      The idea that "Jews" are the same as "Americans" or "British" is not true. British is a descriptive of people living in Britain. It includes people of any faith or no faith. It includes people of any ethnic identity. It includes people of any culture. A person who is British is a person from Britain. Jewish self determination effectively denies the right of some people to be American or British. It also denies people to join "Jews", hence Israel's denial of the existence Israeli citizenship.

      "A group of Jews and Arabs are fighting in the Israeli courts to be recognized as “Israelis,” a nationality currently denied them, in a case that officials fear may threaten the country’s self-declared status as a Jewish state." link to electronicintifada.net

      Jewish self-determination is not just as legitimate, and the supreme court of Israel agrees. Jewish self-determination is a mix of ethnic, religious, and cultural expectations, and is not a description of location. It is a combination of the white South Africa and Saudi Arabia - an attempt at all of racial purity, cultural purity, and ethnic purity. That is not the foundation of western nation states. Jewish self-determination demands conformity of the younger generations. In that sense those who jump up and down and scream antisemitism whenever someone criticizes Israel are more correct than you are. Jewish self-determination comes at the price of individuality. You can't have a cohesive ethnic, racial, and religious state and have an open vibrant multi-ethnic multi cultural state at the same time. The crimes of Israel are absolutely necessary to the foundation of Jewish self-determination. More crimes of similar nature will be required to keep the dream on track.

      If your vision of Jewish self-determination is a community center and weekly pot-lucks then go for it. Otherwise, it is not the same as other people's desire to self-determine, and it is no more legitimate than any other theocracy or racist state.

      The invasion of North America started off as a desire of people of various religious groups to self-determine. Over time the extreme oppressive nature of this stance has given way to what we hope is a post colonial world founded on the notion that religion, culture, and ethnicity are private matters of no interest to the nation state. That is what makes Trump so deeply offensive.

  • Tel Aviv housecleaning service advertises higher rates for European help than Africans
    • Herchel - I thought that Israel was suppose to be a democracy. You are saying that we should judge Israel not on first world standards, but on (I assume) third world "Arab countries". Not only that, but you used a racist formulation to make your point. "Arab" indeed.

      So you first stated that the correct way to judge Israel is not on the basis of democracies, but on the basis of theocracies and dictatorships. I'm with you so far - in spite of using racist slurs against "Arabs".

      Then you justify the racism by bringing up the actions of Abu Mazen. shorter: "Well look - someone else is doing it. Why don't you leave poor Israel alone and go pick on someone else."
      With this type of attitude the US would still be practicing slavery. You lost my support here.

      You say a single private company - but your argument is very different. You in effect support what you claim to oppose by bringing up whataboutyry. You recognize that Israel is not a democracy, but a theocracy and a dictatorship and should be judged accordingly.

      Someone else is worse than Israel so what Israel does is ok by you.

      No, it is not just a single private company. It is a country that should be judged on the basis of other totalitarian regimes - preferably "Arab" ones - I assume like Saudi Arabia. It is Herchel who despite finding it despicable, holds their nose and supports it through obfuscation anyway.

  • 'New York Times' picks up Bernie Sanders's 'socialist' kibbutz but leaves out the ethnic cleansing
    • The Highland Clearances come immediately to mind. Another example - not quite the same, but with a resemblance - would be the treatment of Francophones in Quebec.

      In fact, what is a misuse, is the belief that through some form of technicality, or through carefully concocted definitions, what Israel does can be made to be ok.

  • Suddenly, comparing Jewish state to ISIS is OK
    • Your sentence is confusing.

      If I understand you correctly, I would have to disagree. Oppressor people terrorize those they oppress. A quick example would be the KKK. The treatment of runaway slaves would very clearly fall under terror, as would slavery itself. The massacres of the native populations of many countries wold be yet another.

      I'm afraid I don't see too much that is unique about Israel - 19th century colonialism within a 21st century planet.

      What is interesting to me is the rise of BDS, coupled by its support of Jewish Voice for Peace. That seems to me to be something new.

  • Beinart urges young Jews to get arrested in the West Bank for the sake of Zionism. Will they?
    • That was my thought too.

      Beinart does fake civil rights. Sure it can lead to the real thing eventually though I got news for him - Zionism does not do equality - for that you need a secular society where religion, ethnicity and race are private matters and of no interest to the state.

  • Risk!
    • In all fairness, the "symbolic" acts that are now being discussed is political speech against Israel's occupation. Sure, a lot more, and a lot more specific can and should be done. We know what the political risks are of daring to challenge Zionism. Lets recognize that there is a certain amount of courage and significance in these rather tepid squeaks that first meets the eye.

  • Tony Blair's Middle East speech: dangerous and anti-Muslim
    • The Iraq war, which started in 2003, has caused the deaths of between 100,000 and one million people, depending on whose estimate you believe. Two men were ultimately responsible for the decision to start it: George W Bush and Tony Blair.

      Bush and Blair claim that they were provoked into starting the war by the imminent threat Iraq presented to world peace. They further maintain that the war was legal. A series of leaked documents shows not only that these contentions are untrue, but that Bush and Blair knew they were untrue.

      link to arrestblair.org

      Blair is definitely a nasty piece of work.

  • To reach the 'moveable middle' in Jewish life, you must be inside the tent
    • I blame the Naderites for the Iraq War as much as I blame Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz. They did MUCH more harm than good by fleeing from the tent.

      How dare they attempt to present their own positions on the US! The role of US citizens is not to be seen, nor heard. Dan Fleshler does not seem to understand what democracy is, and doesn't seem too supportive of the basic concept. He could have talked about a system that was anti-democratic, creating the position that someone attempting to support their democratic rights actually ended up supporting exactly the opposite of what they believed.

      Instead we have "liberal" zionism as an anti-democratic institution - where change is carefully managed and controlled and deviation is the absolute evil -- as bad as "Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz". It is not the system that he rails against, but those who seek the right to be heard.

      Evelyn Beatrice Hall's quote (Voltaire's biographer) "I disagree strongly with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." is probably not going to pass his lips any time soon.

      Like those he breaks bread with he is profoundly anti-democrat, and liberal is a sorry adjective to use in connection with his views. The problem is not that he believes in working from within, but rather the extreme conformity and profound anti-democratic stance that he demands of others.

  • Zionism has distorted American Jewish life
  • An open letter to J Street: Let's talk
    • Well Brian - after that wonderful one sided fact free swipe at Jeff Halper and the "PalArabs" you have convinced me of the rightness of your position.

  • Both Sides: Anti-BDS concerns on campus vs. life in the occupied territories
    • Oh all right.

      A torturer doesn't get to claim he is being attacked when the victim scratches him during the torture session.

      link to independent.co.uk

      JeffB -
      "A wonderful example of the sort of rhetoric that’s not normatively part of political debate"

      It was part of the debate over Israel's best friend - Apartheid South Africa. It happens all the time when debating human rights issues with extreme human rights violators. What rock have you been living under?

      "Rhetoric like this is not part the normative discourse when discussing an investment portfolio."

      What are you talking about? Are you out of your mind?

  • Let Pollard go. But first get answers from Tel Aviv
    • from your comments:

      <i.Please explain also how BDS is seeking to restore “dominance to the authentic people” rather than institute universal rights for all people.

      It think BDS-ers want to recreate an Arab majority in Israel and that trumps everything else. If it is actually a set-back for the libertarian human rights--freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, that sort of thing--they will still be deliriously happy. If the Helen Thomas vision of the future is realized and large numbers of Jews become refugees, well, too bad, a guy named Chaim born in Tel Aviv is an usurper by birth.

      I sometimes ask anti-Zionists whether they would support just abolishing all legal distinctions between Jews and non-Jews in the territories governed by the two governments that are supposedly negotiating for peace right now and merging the two territories. That means you would have a completely egalitarian state in what used to be green-line Israel and the West Bank, a country simply for its inhabitants. That new democratic country, let's call it Egalitaria, will have a Jewish majority and will probably not institute an immigration policy designed to reverse the demographics of the country. I even tried asking this question in the comments section of Mondoweiss once. The anti-Zionists always tell me they would not support such a plan. The "right of return" is non-negotiable. It is usually not a good idea to tell one's political opponents what they think--surely they know best what is in their own minds--but I think I'm on fairly solid ground here.

      ====================================

      As point of information - excluding your post traitor appears 10 times. I was actually counting during the time you were posting. There is no question that what is being proposed in this thread by a number of commentators is some form of lynching. (Ah but he is such a bad person!) Even more to the point, people decry the extremely unfair nature of the US justice system and its policies of throw away the key and guilt by association right up to the point where there is someone they do not personally like. At which point suddenly everything is completely different.

      There are worse things though. Your Egalitaria based on first separating people out by religion and ethnicity, then after carefully arranging demographics applying laws that would entrench those demographics would be one of them. Apartheid comes in different forms but they all are based on formalizing who has power and who does not.You are saying that if we commit some crimes at the beginning then set up our egalitarian state everything will be just dandy. Left unsaid but heavily implied is the need for corrective crimes at various points to maintain this wonderful state of affairs.

      People who believe that religion and ethnicity need to be publicly tracked, and that we should set policy and judge people based on religion and ethnicity, like you do, are worse.

    • First, The Israelis have never come clean about what they got and what they did with it. They must give us that information before the U.S. unlocks Pollard’s cell.

      Why? There are two different issues here. One is the actions of Pollard. Two is the actions of what is perceived of the US's closest allie, Isarel.

      I don't think we should be taking revenge on Pollard for the actions of Israel. Pollard is responsible for his own actions and the consequences of those actions. Israel is responsible for its own actions and the consequences. While Pollard's actions led and allowed Israel's actions we need to draw a line here. It is wrong to hold Pollard hostage to try and force Israel's hand. If he should be released (and I agree that he should) then he should be released, regardless of the actions of Israel. It is the difference between being responsible for one's own actions and the consequences of those actions, and being responsible for the actions of someone else. Pollard is not responsible for the actions of someone else.

  • 'The Nation' should stage a debate between Alterman and Blumenthal
  • MJ Rosenberg owes Ali Abunimah an apology for false accusations of anti-Semitism
    • What the world needs is more ethnically pure states and theocracies. Hitler had the right idea (a state for the Ayrians), perhaps a little bit too extreme though. Too bad about South Africa and Rhodesia. Nothing wrong with Saudi Arabia. We need to bring back the Taliban as well. If only Europe had maintained itself as Christian. I don't know what country you live in, but I can only hope it is Israel. It is a horrid imposition for you to live anywhere else. If you don't have the decency to move, then hopefully the country in question will do the right thing and expel you.

      Don't know where we took the wrong turn and started to embrace secular democracies. It is nice to know that you don't support that.

      I am a bit confused though - who is and who is not Jewish? Do you know one when you see one? How do we prevent miscegenation? How many times a month must you attend synagogue in order to maintain yourself as a Jew in good standing? Is it ok for a Jew to eat their ham sandwich with cheese? How do we keep our state pure? What is pure enough?

      What do we do with all those dark skinned people in Israel? I am not unsympathetic to their plight, but I am not willing to see the only Jewish nation on the planet dissolved in order to fix the problem.

      [/sarcasm]

  • The young flee Israel because it is a 'failure' and 'xenophobic theocracy' -- 'Haaretz' columnist
  • There Are No Facts: Excerpt from Max Blumenthal's 'Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel'
  • Israel refuses to recognize its own nationality: Israeli Supreme Court says 'Israeli' nationality could endanger idea of Jewish state
    • Mike K. You need to provide a link. A quick search seems to indicate that this is not true.

      It does look like Saudi Arabia does discriminate against non-Muslims in citizenship, but it is not forbidden. Similarly I haven't seen anything on striping one's citizenship when one ceases to be Muslim.

      Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, and as such the Monarch has the power to, for example, grant citizenship.

      In any case, we've come a long way since the time that supporters of Israel were declaring that Israel is a democracy like any other. Now it is a racist state just like any other racist state.

  • State Dept: No US aid to Israel until budget deal is reached
  • J Street leaders praise IDF, but audience cheers BDS
    • Pogo (out of context).

      link to jimandnancyforest.com

      It sounds from this article that there was an audience that was willing to listen for Palestinians to speak to. This is the best that any speaker can ask for. The alternative for Palestinians to speaking when and where one can is to be silenced.

      If you are never heard then nothing will change. This is part of what is so upsetting about the success the Zionists - they have succeeded in silencing. Debate in any form or location is not what they want.

  • AIPAC gears up for war with Obama
    • Is that a subtle message that these 3 areas will ultimately form part of Israel, or does it imply that these 3 parts still contain undesirables and need to be cleansed?

      You repeat yourself.

      Actually, I suspect that they draw these maps up without much thought at all. You probably exceeded the amount of thought originally behind the map with your post.

      Israel is for foreign public consumption whatever the popular view is at the moment and that is what is displayed. In the only country in the world without fixed borders it is all elastic. Hell, i didn't know about Ghajjar and Kfarshouba Heights. Why cause problems and headaches trying to figure out what is and is not Israel at any given moment?

    • link to longstreet.typepad.com

      They should have done their propaganda in German.

  • What if your friend had to die to preserve a Jewish state?
  • Beinart and Shenhav battle it out over the two-state solution
    • “While I can see that there are elements of injustice in this arrangement, I also want to acknowledge there are deeply just claims that the two-state solution does fulfill,” said Beinart. “The Jewish desire to have one state in the world dedicated to Jewish self-protection–given the Jewish experience in the diaspora…culminating in the Holocaust–is just.”

      Why not just come out and support criminalizing sex between Jews and non Jews? Maybe for Beinart the thought is so disgusting as to be unimaginable so that it is not really necessary. All versions of the two state solution leave in place a state that must ultimately control marriage and sex. If you have a Jewish state you must have the means to keep it Jewish and you must have the ability to decide who is Jewish enough and who is not.

      At its very best Beinart is advocating a replay of segregation in the US.

  • Major 'NYT' piece calls two-state negotiations 'phony'--and catastrophic
  • Why Palestine is different
    • Perhaps the reason that Israel never had a decent leader is that anyone decent would turn down the job - or if by some mistake they actually accepted the job they would be shot.

  • Exile and the prophetic: Israel's original sin
    • Is yet another lesson that no people can be prioritized over another?

      This is not the last, but the first. This is the key from which other lessons can be derived.

  • IDF spokesman posts blackface photo of himself as Obama, then issues non-apology
    • Feeling the love.
      link to vimeo.com

      Gilbert Gamesh 2 years ago

      IMO interviewing a bunch of drunks to try to stir up animosity is not only really bad journalism but racist as well. Joseph Dana and Max Blumenthal really terrible work.

      jared 1 year ago

      I hardly see how interviewing drunk kids from america in israel makes any point at all.

  • Counting the Gaza Dead: False equivalences, distorted dichotomies
    • Israel has not always been under the sphere of the US. I think that it is a mistake to assume that the US is the be-all and end all for Israel foreign policy.

      Singling out Israel is anti-semitic, isn’t it?

      In the same way that singling out South Africa was racist.

  • Tensions rise as Iran shoots at American predator drone and covert war heats up
    • Since when did Israel wait until aid ships were within 12 miles of Israel (Wherever the ---- those borders are) before boarding?

      Ops! - Sorry. Wrong topic. :)

  • Obama's victory highlights a bad night for the Jewish right
    • The problem of course is Castro did not get rid of the crooks. He managed to get them out of Cuba and they became someone else's problem.

      On a slightly off topic note - I recently visited Cuba and was extremely surprised to see how small scale capitalistic Cuba is in the tourist industry. It is probably the most capitalistic culture I have ever seen - people really hustle. Very different than my experiences with the US, Canada, Spain, UK. There are definitely class differences in Cuba. For a real taste of capitalism - visit Cuba! Take that Mr. Castro.

    • It is interesting how similar this map is to another map.

      link to learner.org

  • Exile and the Prophetic: Red lines
    • Religion molds itself to the needs of nationalism. "Judiasm" is no different than any other religion in this regard. What is needed in Judiasm will be found whether it is truly there or not.

      Jewish nationalism, like all other forms of extreme nationalism are highly immoral. It has nothing though to do with Judiasm, except as it can be mined and perverted to support that nationalism. It could just as easily be Christianity as it is being mined and perverted in the US to support American Nationalism.

      Being a victim in the past has nothing to do with how moral one is in the present. If only people who were abused as children did not grow up to be more likely to abuse than the general population.

      Hunger as a weapon of war. One of the oldest weapons in history. For anyone to use it is a disgrace. For Jews to use it is a disgrace beyond words.

      This seems to me to be a violation of the new guidelines. We do not expect more from Jews, and we do not expect less. The reverse of this statement should be obvious: "For Jews to use it is understandable."

      All religions are creations of people. What is sacred is not not the religion, but the creation of God. Without that we are left with worshiping the golden calf.

  • Changes to the Mondoweiss comment policy
    • As the comment policy becomes more complicated it becomes harder and harder to follow. Probably a reason for refusing a comment would be helpful. (do not allow argumentation over that reason - just delete such posts)

  • Savage Geller bus ad hits San Francisco Muni
    • The add will polarize, isolate, and create a "white" vs. "coloured" siege mentality . It could indeed backfire. I would imagine that most immigrant groups will not be impressed. I imagine that the black community will not be impressed. If European countries notice, they will not be impressed.

      Welcome to the 1930's.

  • New round of Iran sanctions pressures Obama to move closer to Israel's 'red line'
    • Except that the Israelis aren’t going to give nuclear weapons to terrorists.

      You are probably right. Selling them to white supremacists is a whole new ball game though.

      Documents reveal how then-defence minister Shimon Perez tried to sell South Africa's apartheid government the bomb

      link to guardian.co.uk

    • Canada has the "capacity" to produce nuclear weapons. Which first world countries do not have this capacity? I think that this resolution is an attempt to declare that a first-world Iran is a threat and is unacceptable.

  • Romney bombs at the King David
    • Who's the leader of the cult that thinks for you and me?

      Mit tRo mney e (Barack Obama!)

      - ok so it doesn't quite scan.

    • The question is how far can the average American take obsequiousness before she throws up? I have little doubt that the average American can go all the way when it comes to violence without losing much sleep just as long as the media keeps it down to a dull roar, but the humiliation that Romney exposes the US to is a different matter.

      I don't think he's crossed the threshold yet.

      No one has mentioned what Romney is doing to future relations to Europe. It will be like Bush, but worse if he becomes president. I'm sure that leaders in Europe are cringing right now. He is not helping them at all, nor is he helping the European perception of the US.

  • It's a lie that Ahmadinejad took responsibility for Bulgarian attack
    • War in context has an updated article:

      A Times of Israel article that I referred to yesterday turns out to have been total bunk — surprise, surprise. (At least I covered my ass a tiny bit by acknowledging I had no idea whether the translations of quotes by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad were accurate.)

  • Syria watch
    • Canada 1812.

      The US tried to annex Upper Canada and Lower Canada. A series of events leading from that attempted annexation lead to a free democracy. See - the US actively trying to prevent a freedom has managed to sew the seeds of a democracy. Stunning, isn't it.

      Oh - that's not what you meant. Well carry on then.

    • white phosporus is used in smoke munitions. It is used by police forces all over Asia, Africa and the Americas. Including inside the US.

      Zyklon B was used as a disinfectant and used for pest control. What is your point?

  • Krugman's coverup
    • Jewish money or no Jewish money, at some point the United States of Israel is going to upset folks back in the USofA.

      There is a line that can be walked only so far until there is a backlash. It is stupid for the Democrats to be positioning themselves a hairsbreadth to the left of the Republican Party.

      To position themselves to the right of the Republican party leaves them open to being the one to take the fall when the hits the fan.

      Who knows - maybe there will be unintended consequences. Perhaps the Republican Party will go so completely wingy that they will alienate themselves. Or perhaps the majority of Americans will fail to notice or even worse be truly represented? Or perhaps the US will continue its slide into authoritarian "democracy" with no recourse for the majority of the population.

      It is also stupid for mainstream Jewish groups to continue to pray towards Jerusalem. There may be a backlash against recognized Jewish groups as well over the creation of the United States of Israel. There's a reason that separation of church and state is so important.

  • White House refuses to point finger at Hezbollah in Bulgaria terrorist attack
    • One single fact? Attack on Israelis that the U.S. confirms is Hezbollah is more than enough proof for me. Of course, I'm not paranoid.

      Lots of ways to know the attack was Hezbollah

      Of course I read it. It says they aren't saying how they know, not that they don't know.

      You lose the bet. He was Hezbollah.

      "A senior American official confirmed Israel’s assertions on Thursday that the suicide bomber who killed five Israelis in an attack here on Wednesday was a member of a Hezbollah cell operating in Bulgaria."

      Well, if the paranoid fringedwellers say it, it must be true.

      The "paranoid fringedwellers" believe anything that is convenient to their world view, and so do you. There is no skepticism in your analysis. The world is black and white, good and evil. It must be Hezbollah and you have grasped at any straw that indicates that must be true. At the same time you have shut your eyes to anything that indicates there is room for doubt.

      There are a lot of people who always blame Israel for everything. There are people who blame the US for everything. There are people who think that Israel is never wrong for anything, and that Hezbollah is always to blame.

      You have ridiculed the "paranoid fringdwellers", but you have shown yourself to be a "paranoid toady". Have you learned anything from the current backtracking of official sources on who has done it?

      Right above your quote Colin Wright hits it dead on - He doesn't know that it is a false flag. Neither do I. We both know that Israel often uses false flag operations, and if you are not completely blind, so do you. The Lavon affair is the most famous, but by no means the only.

    • Colin: I agree 100%.

      Explicitly avoiding any discussion of the merits of 9/11, the same thing applies there too.

      I think that more and more, Israel and the US are seen as a single country in terms of foreign policy.

  • Netanyahu adopts Facebook strategy to claim sovereignty over Jerusalem for the Olympics
  • 7 dead in terrorist attack in Bulgaria
  • What if an American politician came out for preserving a Christian majority?
    • And yet, the colour of skin of those who are Shas does not matter. What matters is that a Jewish state must define who is and who is not a Jew. You must have your own definition, just as Shas does, just as the state of Israel does.

      Ethiopian Jews must have their culture destroyed (over time) because their version of Judaism is not acceptable. Jews for Jesus are beyond the pale. A Jewish state must be an oppressive state, to among others, Jews - just as a Catholic states originally felt they had to control Christianity.

      The contradictions of Shas and they are voting for a white definition when they are hardly white is indeed funny - but the funny part is that some people are white. The only people who are white are extremely ill. It is not a natural colour for homo sapiens.

      The creation of what is acceptable Jewish behaviour for a Jewish state is no more and no less arbitrary than Shas's desire for white skin. And it is no more nor no less racist.

    • Same enough for all Jews to be covered by the state of Israel according to you.

      Shas - 10% of the vote 2009, 4th largest party in the knesset. There seems to be a very large number of backward nutjobs in Israel who seem to think that only white people can be Jews.

      I'd say that the difference between believing Israel is for Jews and Israel is for white Jews is one of degree not kind.

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