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Total number of comments: 7 (since 2009-09-02 15:06:24)

edwin

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  • Why I support a one state solution and still consider myself a Zionist
    • I think you may wish to use another example other than Japan. I rather suspect that the nationals of Japan are not the majority of citizens one normally sees.

      I think that there is a subtle difference between ethnic nationalism and a society with a very hight amount of ethnic/cultural/religious similarity. If a country is open to ethnic/cultural/religious change as the population changes then it is not the same thing as the Zionist project and what Becca Strober seems to be getting at. I don't know for sure, but I suspect Japan is open to change as the population changes - though I don't know what their relationship with their native population is, other than from small bits that I have read.

    • "Jewish self-determination is just as legitimate as other peoples’ desire to self-determine..."

      The idea that "Jews" are the same as "Americans" or "British" is not true. British is a descriptive of people living in Britain. It includes people of any faith or no faith. It includes people of any ethnic identity. It includes people of any culture. A person who is British is a person from Britain. Jewish self determination effectively denies the right of some people to be American or British. It also denies people to join "Jews", hence Israel's denial of the existence Israeli citizenship.

      "A group of Jews and Arabs are fighting in the Israeli courts to be recognized as “Israelis,” a nationality currently denied them, in a case that officials fear may threaten the country’s self-declared status as a Jewish state." link to electronicintifada.net

      Jewish self-determination is not just as legitimate, and the supreme court of Israel agrees. Jewish self-determination is a mix of ethnic, religious, and cultural expectations, and is not a description of location. It is a combination of the white South Africa and Saudi Arabia - an attempt at all of racial purity, cultural purity, and ethnic purity. That is not the foundation of western nation states. Jewish self-determination demands conformity of the younger generations. In that sense those who jump up and down and scream antisemitism whenever someone criticizes Israel are more correct than you are. Jewish self-determination comes at the price of individuality. You can't have a cohesive ethnic, racial, and religious state and have an open vibrant multi-ethnic multi cultural state at the same time. The crimes of Israel are absolutely necessary to the foundation of Jewish self-determination. More crimes of similar nature will be required to keep the dream on track.

      If your vision of Jewish self-determination is a community center and weekly pot-lucks then go for it. Otherwise, it is not the same as other people's desire to self-determine, and it is no more legitimate than any other theocracy or racist state.

      The invasion of North America started off as a desire of people of various religious groups to self-determine. Over time the extreme oppressive nature of this stance has given way to what we hope is a post colonial world founded on the notion that religion, culture, and ethnicity are private matters of no interest to the nation state. That is what makes Trump so deeply offensive.

  • Tel Aviv housecleaning service advertises higher rates for European help than Africans
    • Herchel - I thought that Israel was suppose to be a democracy. You are saying that we should judge Israel not on first world standards, but on (I assume) third world "Arab countries". Not only that, but you used a racist formulation to make your point. "Arab" indeed.

      So you first stated that the correct way to judge Israel is not on the basis of democracies, but on the basis of theocracies and dictatorships. I'm with you so far - in spite of using racist slurs against "Arabs".

      Then you justify the racism by bringing up the actions of Abu Mazen. shorter: "Well look - someone else is doing it. Why don't you leave poor Israel alone and go pick on someone else."
      With this type of attitude the US would still be practicing slavery. You lost my support here.

      You say a single private company - but your argument is very different. You in effect support what you claim to oppose by bringing up whataboutyry. You recognize that Israel is not a democracy, but a theocracy and a dictatorship and should be judged accordingly.

      Someone else is worse than Israel so what Israel does is ok by you.

      No, it is not just a single private company. It is a country that should be judged on the basis of other totalitarian regimes - preferably "Arab" ones - I assume like Saudi Arabia. It is Herchel who despite finding it despicable, holds their nose and supports it through obfuscation anyway.

  • 'New York Times' picks up Bernie Sanders's 'socialist' kibbutz but leaves out the ethnic cleansing
    • The Highland Clearances come immediately to mind. Another example - not quite the same, but with a resemblance - would be the treatment of Francophones in Quebec.

      In fact, what is a misuse, is the belief that through some form of technicality, or through carefully concocted definitions, what Israel does can be made to be ok.

  • Suddenly, comparing Jewish state to ISIS is OK
    • Your sentence is confusing.

      If I understand you correctly, I would have to disagree. Oppressor people terrorize those they oppress. A quick example would be the KKK. The treatment of runaway slaves would very clearly fall under terror, as would slavery itself. The massacres of the native populations of many countries wold be yet another.

      I'm afraid I don't see too much that is unique about Israel - 19th century colonialism within a 21st century planet.

      What is interesting to me is the rise of BDS, coupled by its support of Jewish Voice for Peace. That seems to me to be something new.

  • Beinart urges young Jews to get arrested in the West Bank for the sake of Zionism. Will they?
    • That was my thought too.

      Beinart does fake civil rights. Sure it can lead to the real thing eventually though I got news for him - Zionism does not do equality - for that you need a secular society where religion, ethnicity and race are private matters and of no interest to the state.

  • Risk!
    • In all fairness, the "symbolic" acts that are now being discussed is political speech against Israel's occupation. Sure, a lot more, and a lot more specific can and should be done. We know what the political risks are of daring to challenge Zionism. Lets recognize that there is a certain amount of courage and significance in these rather tepid squeaks that first meets the eye.

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