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Total number of comments: 22 (since 2009-11-04 14:39:17)

Elizabeth Asher Goldstein

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  • A new generation of giants
    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 23, 2009 at 1:02 pm

      Thank you for you apology. In a blog post about the conference run by Students for Justice in Palestine, conflating SPICI with J-Street (who we are at odds with) I just felt painted an unfair picture of our relationship with SPICI, and I didn't want that. I did just look at the Hampedia page, since you mentioned it, and you're right, it seems that Tal has co-opted the page, which is far more concerning to me than his ludicrous J-Street email. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 23, 2009 at 12:28 pm

      For the record, Students Promoting Israeli Culture and Information is not really under the auspices of J-Street. To say this, and your misguided claim that it is headed by Tal Schechter shows a clear misunderstanding of Hampshire College in its very structuring, besides the misunderstanding of the purposes of SPICI. Hampshire doesn't have singly lead or hierarchically structured groups, and the two other Hampshire students who share equal responsibility for planning and signing off on various SPICI events had nothing to do with Tal's offensively worded email. SPICI itself was not advocating for the "$2 for two states." This was all Tal and J-Street. The most political thing SPICI has done in the year and a half since its creation (and by creation, I mean its rebirth in breaking away from UPZ when they decided not to be a politically driven club) is screen "Waltz for Bashir." We (Students for Justice in Palestine) are not really at odds with them. Please do not conflate the group SPICI as a whole with J-Street just because of Tal. Thank you.

  • A student responds to the J Street conference
    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 5, 2009 at 12:10 pm

      Also, I've been corrected. The WORMS buddy did move to Israel and serve in the Israeli military after getting out of the US air force. So I take back my accusation of him being a passive war-monger.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 5, 2009 at 12:45 am

      As soon as I posted that, I felt bad. I just wanted to play the "lets be as obnoxious as possible" game with Mooser, but actually, I really hate the word shiksa.

      My non-Jewish girlfriend doesn't mind the "z". And the ladies on Hester St had enough trouble getting used to her that they don't notice the z anymore either.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 5, 2009 at 12:43 am

      Ah, it's alright, my shiksa girlfriend doesn't mind the "z".

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 6:19 pm

      Lizzy,
      What do you owe to your being born in the USA, the propositional nation?
      Do you realize how many n0n-jewish people and their famiies have suffered for this secular stance?

      I'm sorry, Citizen, it's getting to the end of Day 2 without sleep, and I don't think I fully understand this question.
      To start with, I owe a lot to my propositional nation. I'm an American patriot - despite the awful things the US does or funds other governments to do - and I proud diasporic Jew.
      I'm not really sure where I'm supposed to go with this... What secular stance are you talking about? What about the non-Jews? Is this a response to my last comment to you about having difficulty putting myself in the place of Gentile anti-Zionists?
      Sorry to be suddenly thick, but my brain is basically shutting down as we speak. I'd give up here and go to sleep, but I have class in an hour, and this debate is keeping my brain somewhat alive so that I make to class.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 5:35 pm

      Carnas - I'm sorry if my comment upset you. I maintain Diaspora was good for us. I don't think the Jewish people would have survived and flourished the way we have is we had been able to stay in the Holy Land since the return from Egypt, at the very least, we certainly wouldn't have the rich diverse culture that each individual Jewish community brings to the greater community. I'm proud to be a Diasporic Jew.

      Further, I am amazed at how quick the people reading this blog are to make assumptions. May I remind you, you have read two pages of my feelings regarding a conference I attended last week, and maybe some other comments here. You have no idea of my knowledge base, what I have seen with my own eyes, how privileged my household, etc.
      Further, I never claimed that the Jews did or did not deserve a state. I merely states my ideologies, which are generally anti-Nationalism of any kind, and questioned the exclusivity of the "two-state solution" in American discourse.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 5:22 pm with 4 replies

      Mooser- I still don't understand you. You're comments are scathing, but you never seem to make a point, and you're consistently flat-out wrong about who I am.
      But, alright.
      No, I suppose Elizabeth is not a particularly Jewish name, though I do know multiple other Jews name Elizabeth. Is that important to you? And thanks for the support, I won't ever give up on being a Rabbi. It's been my plan since 5 years, and now I'm only a year away from application. Exciting stuff.
      Hm. I'm sorry that you are a boor, as Jimby says, and that your bubbe made faces at you for being a racist. I'm sure she's proud of you now, for your great critical reading skills and ability to hang around some internet site all day. It looks like you've done real well for yourself without ordination.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 5:21 pm

      Mooser- I still don't understand you. You're comments are scathing, but you never seem to make a point, and you're consistently flat-out wrong about who I am.
      But, alright.
      No, I suppose Elizabeth is not a particularly Jewish name, though I do know multiple other Jews name Elizabeth. Is that important to you? And thanks for the support, I won't ever give up on being a Rabbi. It's been my plan since 5 years, and now I'm only a year away from application. Exciting stuff.
      Hm. I'm sorry that you are a boor, as Jimby says, and that your bubbe made faces at you for being a racist. I'm sure she's proud of you now, for your great critical reading skills and ability to hang around some internet site all day. It looks like you've done real well for yourself with ordination.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 5:11 pm

      You're completely right, it is a really important question, one which my father has confronted him with, and his response was, "if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're still one when you're old, you have no head." I maintain that its because he doesn't have to fight for Israel. But probably that's just me being bitter and assuming the worst of him. Bitterness aside, I know he's also a member of the Jewish War Veterans Association, so I think maybe he has some complex over fighting an unjust for that wasn't for him, at a time when this country still had anti-Semitic tendencies. So its easier for him to support the state of Israel blind him because he feels it better represents him, protects his interests.
      Personally, since the man has never addressed with me to me, I have no interest in picking a fight with him, particularly after the "useful idiot" comment.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 4:54 pm

      Citizen - I maintain the point I made to former coMMenter.
      Nationalism is racism. I was making no implications to the Arab states. As I said, I think they are too homogeneous to be confronted with that racism. But we saw it in Serbia, Rwanda, Germany... just because they are no longer staging genocides does not mean Israel is alone in it's errors.
      Of course there's more to my anti-Zionism. There's the actions of Israel that embarrass me as a Jew. There's the fact that we were a Diasporic race, we were set apart, a light unto the nations. Christianity and Islam spread all over the world through Crusades and Missionaries, violence and forced conversions. Judaism was spread around the world because we were kicked out of every place, but in each new place we settled we survived, against the odds. Diaspora, aside from all the massacring of our people, was generally good for our people. Why would we need now to settle in the Holy Land, kick people out of their homes, starve them, shoot them? How is that a light unto the nations? Zionism is so fundamentally unJewish to me.
      My Jewish beliefs aside, I still think that nationalism is racism. Bottom line.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 4:41 pm

      Citizen -

      I appreciate what you are trying to convey about this being a non-Jewish American issue, too, but honestly, it is a stretch of my imagination to feel the alone-ness of a Gentile on this issue. Not because I doubt the reality or legitimacy of that feeling, but simply because it is so not my experience. When I talk with non-Jewish friends at Hampshire on this issue, I am able to be freer with my criticisms of Israel, but at the same time I feel a fundamental misunderstanding or insensitivity coming from the non-Jewish viewpoint. I keep trying to come up with an example that would be quick and easy to explain in this little box, but this is really a discussion that would be better vocal.

      I'm not entirely sure I see your point in relaying the Zionist question to the US economy (you had me with Iraq/potentional Iran war, then you lost me with Wall Street). In anycase, as long as you bring up WW3, I might as well put it out there: 2012. The world as we know it will supposedly come to an end. That might be WW3. Maybe followed by a societal collapse and a retreat into smaller, horizontally run communes. Of course its ridiculous to count on any of these things happening, but secretly, I'm hoping for it. A clean slate might do us good. I say "us" but in the event of an apocalypse of sorts, I probably will not be the fittest. I'll probably be eaten. But I'm okay with that.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 4:15 pm

      So, Chu, before you join Mooser's "lets make assumptions about Elizabeth" train, let me tell you all some more about me. Mooser, maybe you should read this more carefully than you read the actual post, as I maintain you did not read it. Or else you did not understand it. Or else you are just being ridiculous and you know it and you're just one of those people that takes great amusement and watching strangers get mad when they don't really know what they're getting mad at.

      Anyway, this issue for me is not about my family. It is about my community. As mentioned, I was not raised a Zionist, nor was I raised to be an anti-Zionist. As mentioned, my father was a part of a group of Vietnam draft soldiers who called themselves WORMS (We Openly Resist Military Stupidity). As mentioned, he is still anti-war and anti-Occupation. I can talk about this with my family. When I participated in a peace rally staged at Kibbutz Yotvata in response to the air raids on Gaza this December - that's right participated, how's that for action, Jackson - I took a lot of pictures, sent them to my parents with the label, "WORMS: Israel."

      The issue is, when I leave the comfort of my family or the Arava family (if you don't know what that is, I suggest you look it up), how do I continue to be able to talk about this? How do I look the Zionists in the eye, particularly those who come from more traditional backgrounds are already judging me for being a female with a kippa, a female with the audacity to study for the rabbinate, how do I bring the conversation to them? The issue is, I thought Progressive Zionism would be the stepping stone, and maybe it still could be, but in that conference I felt so, so alone. Direct action is well and good, but mostly I think it just pisses off those on the right, and is often unproductive. We need political action, and as Americans, let's push it from the American government. But how do we do that if we can't even talk about the complexities? If its already been decided for us the being "Pro-Peace" doesn't necessarily include being "Pro-Palestinian"? It's already been decided for us that the "two-state solution" (no, no, we don't need details. Two states? Good enough), is the only solution?

      Maybe instead of trying to rip apart my narrative because you all think that I'm some young, naive, maybe idealistic, in Mooser's case Zionist (again, proof he hasn't actually read what I've written here), maybe you should offer some solutions to this painful lack of dialogue.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 3:56 pm

      former coMMenter -

      First, I think I would disagree that Israel is the most racist nation-state, I think its just the most confront with its racism because its "other" lives so much closer than in most cases.
      But I do agree with your point on the two-state. But again, I feel the need to separate practicality with ideology, even a less radical ideology. The sad reality that we currently face is that unless the US mans up and attaches serious stipulations to the money in grants Israel (and is serious - deny Israel money if they spit in our face again! Why are we paying for their Occupation?!) , Israel will determine the rules of the peace agreement, not the PA. And Israel is going to cling to its right to a racist nation-state. So what is more important: the immediate cessation of violence, the removal of the apartheid wall, a removal of the Jewish settlements or at least a land swap with the Palestinians in return for the land the settlers stole, even if it comes with economic instability and a continuation of reliance on Israel to give Palestinians the bare minimum of water so the Jews can make the desert green? Or would we rather keep fighting for a peace that a single bi-national state, in which Arabs and Jews are giving equal voice in parliament, equal access to water, a single economy, even if that takes an extra 30 years, killing innumerable people (mostly Palestinians, probably) in the meantime?
      Honestly, I am not sure of my own answer. That was why I wanted to be able to talk about it! There are so many complexities, that the idea that there is one easy fix in the "two-state solution" that J Street kept spouting was just too ludicrous.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 3:41 pm with 16 replies

      Witty - of course I will try not to prejudge your viewpoints. But it is only natural to draw some conclusions based on your comments to previous posts.

      Chaos - I also read your comments on a previous post, but the funny thing is, most of your comments that I saw were just an attack on Witty. So, thanks for the advice, but I feel much safer at lunch with a reasonable man whose politics a may not agree with, than a zealot whose politics I do agree with.

      Marc B - I don't believe that Witty invited himself anywhere. In fact, I believe the invite came from him to me for the purposes of discussing the issues I raise in this post, and the request to not be prejudged in more than reasonable.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 2:34 pm with 5 replies

      I'm sorry if that was inarticulate. What I meant was I often feel silenced voicing even the most cautious of my criticisms of Israel, even by the very shock on people's faces at the idea that I would value the lives of Palestinians over the ideology of Zionists. But if the shock I see on the faces of the nameless members of my wider community pushes me into silence, it is nothing compared to the shutting down I feel in response to the hurtful comments made by someone close to me, as well as more violent comments made by someone not so close to me, but neither to my face! Both my aunt and the WORMS buddy directed these comments to my parents. That is the ultimate prevention of dialogue!

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 2:25 pm with 3 replies

      First, I would like to clarify that he is not my buddy. He is my father’s buddy, and despite his anti-Viet Nam War activism in the ‘60’s, he’s now a raving right wing Zionist (for the record, my father remains anti-war and anti-Occupation). And yes, the old 'Nam buddy's words were meant to be derogatory. I believe his actual statement was something to the affect that I may end up like that "useful idiot Rachel Corrie," yes, the implication being better dead than (well)-read. Those comments still boggle my mind. It figures, though, he's anti-war in the 1960'swhen he's the one overseas fighting. But from his safe space in the US, in his ripe old age, with no fears of being sent to combat, its all well and good to support military Occupation.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 2:09 pm

      Tree -
      Thank you for defending my honor while WordPress and I were battling to let me log in and respond!

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm

      Mooser –

      I don’t understand your first comment? Is your insinuation that when I am ordained I will automatically assume the role of racist Zionist? That vague implication, combined with your later comment on the haredi, I find just downright hateful. How have you any more right to make generalizing judgements about religious Jews, than the Zionists have to make generalizing comments about the Arabs?
      And what part of my post did you find the need to “read it again,” to find the nugget of “true love” between me and Mr. Witty? Furthermore, please refrain from making assumptions about my soul. You clearly didn’t actually read what I wrote if you think that I believe Palestinian lives don’t mean a thing compared to Jewish feelings.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 2:04 pm

      former coMMenter –

      Hm. Perhaps I didn’t actually articulate that point well. I was just sort of stuck it in there at the end. Let me clarify what I meant by the “collapse of the nation-state paradigm.” At the root of my anti-Zionism is the belief that all nation-states are inherently racist. Thus, even if we were actually hold Israel accountable to international law and stop the human rights abuses, we might have peace, but not necessarily justice. Even a Sovereign Palestine would most likely face issues with Israel, at least at the beginning. “Separate but equal” is never really equal. It was my understanding from the conference that this peace without justice is what J Street wants: two states that live in relative peace, which may include peace for Palestinians, but it is mainly a peace for Israel’s sake. In my silly radical idealist world, the end of Israel’s human rights abuses would also include a collapse of the ethnocracy and a bi-national state in which all are equal. And of course, in this silly radical idealist world, the rest of the world’s nation-states would follow suit and we’d all live in a happy equality-filled melting pot where racism is as distant as Greek mythology.
      But that ain’t gonna happen, so I concede that a “separate but equal” two-state solution is probably the fastest way to end the violence.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 2:00 pm

      Citizen –

      Thank you for your concern, but I’m sure I’ll be fine. I have read some of his previous comments here on Mondoweiss, and although its clear we won’t see eye to eye politically, I feel perfectly comfortable in one-on-one discussion with someone who doesn’t share my viewpoints. Being ingrained in the mainstream Jewish community, you can imagine I face it often. It is only difficult for me when I start to feel very alone, as I did at the J Street conference.

      And has been said many times in these threads, if all else fails, I'll just stuff my face full of bean burrito.

    • Elizabeth Asher Goldstein November 4, 2009 at 1:58 pm with 4 replies

      I would be more than willing to speak face to face. I email Phil, as suggested, though using a middle man felt so silly. I suppose he’ll be in touch with you, and then we can plan a meeting at Veracruzana?

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