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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
>> Unless of course the goal is to have a state of your own. Small price to pay.
It's an unjust and immoral price to pay, one that would legitimize Jewish supremacism within - and the second-class status of all non-Jewish citizens of - supremacist "Jewish State".
It figures that a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist like mondonuteee would view it as a "small price to pay".
He's the guy who'd be saying to the victim, "Look, in exchange for your freedom, all you have to do is never seek justice against the rapist, and forever proclaim that he is a good and kind man whom you greatly admire and respect. It's a small price to pay. And if you refuse, well, you'll stay chained up down here and he'll keep beating and raping you. So, c'mon, agree to praise him forever and never press charges. It's such a small price to pay!"
>> Here’s Netanyahu “contradicting” Bennett: “ ... I will seek a negotiated settlement where you’d have a demilitarized Palestinian state that recognizes the Jewish state.”
Such a thing should not come to pass.
A Palestinian state must have the same right as every other state to militarization for defensive purposes.
No-one - not even the Palestinians - should recognize Israel as a supremacist "Jewish State". No state should be recognized as a supremacist state.
>> Throwing stones at passing high speeding cars is attempted murder ...
I disagree that it's attempted murder, but I do believe it's dangerous and potentially deadly, and that anyone doing it should be held accountable.
Similarly, I think that anyone engaging in...
- terrorism and ethnic cleansing in order to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state; and
- a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder,
...should also be held accountable.
>> Obama himself famously said regarding Bush Administration crimes that he thought we should look forward and not back ...
I recall being blown away when Barry "Hope and Change" Obama spoke those words.
>> If either a high ranking Israeli or American official were somehow brought up on war crimes charges, the US government would do everything in its power to stop the proceedings.
Naturally. Justice is something "we" do to "them", even if it means raining massive-scale death and devastation upon them.
>> It’s quite within our power to fix. Most settlers are not ultra-orthodox and would leave tomorrow if asked to ... But it’s a negotiation ...
And there you have it in no uncertain terms:
- Jews from the supremacist "Jewish State" illegally and immorally occupy Palestine.
- They would leave tomorrow if asked to...but the supremacist "Jewish State" won't ask them to.
- Because even though it is within the power of the supremacist "Jewish State" to immediately and completely end its illegal and immoral occupation of Palestine and to withdraw to within its / Partition borders, it would prefer to "negotiate".
In other words:
- I do wrong.
- I know full well that I do wrong.
- I could stop doing wrong.
- I prefer to continue doing wrong.
- I will accuse others of making me do wrong.
- I expect to be rewarded for doing wrong.
Ain't Zio-supremacism grand?!
>> Abir Kopty makes it clear that she seeks the elimination of the Jewish state ... This can only lead to the destruction of the Jewish entity in Israel ...
And that would be a good thing. Supremacist "Jewish State" has no "right" to exist.
>> They harp on about a secular democratic state, denying the right to Jews to have their nation state ...
Jews don't have a right to a supremacist "Jewish State".
>> ... and happily ignoring the abundance of other states in the world that have a state religion. The Islamic world is chockers with them and yet the Islamic countries strive endlessly to deny Jews the right to a state of their own.
The solution to the problem is for "Islamic countries" in the "Islamic world" to undergo reform and become secular, democratic and egalitarian states of and for all of their citizens, equally.
The solution is not for Jews to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine.
>>Kopty says
>> She uses this euphemism decolonize to express her political position. Can one interpret the intent of this expression to be anything other than to get rid of the Jews from Israel?
I interpreted it as meaning "end the Israeli colonization of - and remove Israeli colonies from - lands outside of Partition-borders Israel".
I agree with the sentiment. Unfortunately, the wording is somewhat ambiguous.
If she actually does mean "get rid of the Jews from Israel", then I condemn her statement.
>> This is all so tragic.
Yes, it is tragic that Jews were able to employ terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state in Palestine.
And that they were then able to maintain and expand that state by means of a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
And that they continue to refuse to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
And that Israel remains an oppressive and supremacist state.
It's all quite tragic.
>> ... #3 adds an extra dimension of hatefulness and immorality because of the active rejection of something one knows to be unjust and immoral.
Correction: ... because of the active acceptance of something one knows to be unjust and immoral.
>> You said Beinart knew Zionism was wrong. He never wrote that.
In other words:
1. Beinart truly believes that Jewish supremacism - unlike any other form of supremacism - is just and moral;
2. Beinart is completely unaware that Jewish supremacism - like every other form of supremacism - is unjust and immoral; or
3. Beinart is fully aware that Jewish supremacism - like every other form of supremacism - is unjust and immoral, but he hasn't admitted it and/or he doesn't care.
Scenario #2 implies that Beinart is a clueless idiot. He does not strike me as being a clueless idiot.
Therefore, #1 and #3 are the more likely scenarios. Both imply that Beinart is a hateful and immoral person, but #3 adds an extra dimension of hatefulness and immorality because of the active rejection of something one knows to be unjust and immoral.
hophmeee has repeatedly demonstrated that he embodies scenario #1. (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.)
I wonder which scenario - #1 or #3 - best describes Beinart.
>> What’s wrong with saying “those people”? ... These are people with a certain political view, not with a certain nationality.
hophmeee's well aware of that. He's just touchy because he, like Beinart, is a Zio-supremacist hypocrite, and they really hate having attention drawn to their wilful hatefulness and immorality.
>> Why didn’t Peter Beinart “check his Zionism” yet?
Given that he's a "liberal Zionist", I'd say that he has checked it and that he's quite happy advocating for and supporting a kinder, gentler Jewish supremacism.
>> Children and especially children of immigrants often reflect the politics of their parents. Is that indoctrination? Well, then it’s an indoctrination that is nonspecific to Jews or even immigrants. It’s part of the process of human history.
If it's no big deal, why do Jews get so worked up about anti-Semitism? It's just part of the process of human history, right?
Hateful and immoral indoctrination of any kind - including Zio-supremacism - should be condemned, not tolerated, admired, justified or encouraged.
>> Th’ big bang wuz scarrrry … Loud too….
Yeah, and I remember them telling us that it wasn't going to be all that loud. Even back then, you couldn't trust politicians... ;-)
>> ... can my browser be programmed in such a way that my ‘customized’ information is not sent to Google in the first place. If not, is there some other search engine where that can be done?
If you use the Chrome browser, use the incognito option; else, try using startpage as your search engine (in Chrome or in some other browser).
>> The events were so dramatic that it should be understandable how and why it continues to stir the emotions.
It should be at least as understandable how and why the events surrounding the Nakba - which were so dramatic and which, thanks to Zio-supremacism, continue to be so dramatic - continue to stir the emotions.
It's a shame - but not surprising - that Zio-supremacists are emotionally deficient when it comes to the suffering of the people they and their like-minded co-collectivists have oppressed and continue to oppress.
>> You can be sure that if he refrains from entering a Holocaust museum, he also dismisses the work of staunchly pro-Israeli intellectuals on right.
If entering a Holocaust museum means that one learns to appreciate the Zio-supremacist viewpoint that the answer to injustice is not justice and accountability but the creation of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state, then I would say that refraining from entering a Holocaust museum is a course of action all people should take.
>> Yes, you did.
Nope.
>> A quite well known tactic to deny Israel’s right to exist on the one hand ...
As I've said many times before, Israel exists and I believe it should continue to exist as a secular, democratic and egalitarian state within its / Partition borders. I advocate for justice, morality, equality and accountability.
You advocate for a supremacist "Jewish State" and for "Jewish State" supremacism. You are a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.
>> ... and to justify terrorism against Israeli Jews on the other side.
I oppose terrorism, regardless of who commits it. I belive people who commit acts of terrorism should be held accountable for their crimes.
You justify, excuse or gloss over past and ON-GOING acts of Jewish terrorism, ethnic cleansing, colonialism, torture, destruction and murder. You are a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.
>> From the Israeli point of view it was and is a necessary act of defense against terror attacks from the WB.
It's funny how Israel - in order to "defend itself" - is prepared to do all sorts of things EXCEPT:
- immediately and completely halt its occupation and colonization of Palestine;
- withdraw to within its / Partition borders; and
- enter into sincere negotiations with an autonomous Palestinian state for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
>> Is the purpose of Palestinian violence to hit “colonization” or Israeli Jewish civilians wherever they are? What do you think?
The purpose of Palestinian violence appears to be to hit the oppressive and supremacist "Jewish State" occupier and colonizer.
But here's an easy way to confirm it: Have Israel end its occupation, withdraw to within Partition borders and enter into sincere negotiations with an autonomous Palestinian state for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
If Palestinians continue to strike at Israeli Jewish civilians (and Israeli non-Jewish civilians - because they matter, too) wherever they are, I'll concede that Palestinian violence may be related to something other than occupation and colonization.
>> Slander doesn’t help your cause, eljay.
slander: a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report.
Well, then, it's a good thing I didn't resort to it!
>> Checkpoints are a purposeful act of self-defense against the scourge of terrorism and chaos that plagues the Arab world.
Yes, and the chains the rapist uses to hold his victim captive in his basement are a purposeful act of self-defense against the scourge of her slaps and punches, and her attempts to escape and bring the police down on him.
Hevven forbid that the rapist should i) stop raping his victim, ii) set his victim free and iii) be held accountable for his crimes.
>> You must be kidding. The people of 15 federal states would be totally outraged and condemn the Bavarians for this scandalously narcissistic proposal of renaming Germany after their federal state.
The point wasn't the name Bavaria - it could have been Freedonia.
>> people from the country of Bavaria = Germans
>> people from the federal state of Bavaria = Bavarians
People from anywhere within Freedonia = Germans
>> WHAT? So, German Jews would suddenly be deprived of their German citizenship and become citizens of Israel against their will?
Well, there's a good reason making Jewish a nationality won't work. So we're back to Israeli being the nationality and all citizens of Israelis being equal. Sounds good to me.
>> Interesting. Your reason for having an Israeli state is that it already exists. Your reason for having a Palestinian state is that it doesn’t exist yet. Don’t you see a contradiction here?
Not at all. Partition was to result in two states. One currently exists and the other has yet to come into existence. The first state does not have to cease to exist for the second state to come into existence.
>> All Palestinians there must be given equal rights.
IMO:
- in Israel, all Jews and non-Jews must be given equality as Israelis; and
- in Palestine, all non-Jews and Jews must be given equality as Palestinians.
>> Once they have these rights, they can decide democratically whether they want to keep the one state or create two separate states.
I agree.
>> a nationality is part of an ethnicity. maybe you should research the definition of ethnicity.
My nationality is Canadian, but I'm not aware that there's any such thing as a Canadian ethnicity.
German Lefty, I'm sorry to see you being attacked so strongly and, IMO, so unreasonably. :-(
>> You being “German” is both a citizenship AND an ethnicity ...
There's no reason why it must be both. And, FWIW, it never occurred to me that GL was using the word "German" as anything other than an identifier of her nationality.
>> Or make the country Israel and the bureaucratic nationality Jewish. That’s a bad idea! Imagine the official nationality of people from Germany were “Aryan” instead of “German”. That just doesn’t go together.
If the nationality of people from Germany were "German" and the country changed its name to Bavaria, would this be a problem? The nationality would remain the same, and it would still apply to everyone equally.
>> This would lead to misunderstandings all the time. And non-Israeli Jews would still be falsely associated with that country.
Or perhaps not so falsely. If they're Jewish, they are of Jewish nationality and therefore citizens of Israel. Which is what they want. But it would have the benefit of permitting supremacist "Jewish State" to be a true secular, democractic and egalitarian Jewish state for all Jewish people, equally. And that includes...
- all current citizens;
- all returning refugees;
- all people originally from that geographic region, plus up to n generations of descendants,
...all of whom would also have Jewish nationality.
>> If there were a country that wanted to call itself “Atheistan”, I would object to this idea, too.
That's a bit of a reversal. If the country were called "NewCountry" and the bureaucratic nationality were atheist, all citizens would be bureaucratically atheist and equal.
But atheists don't claim that they/we are a nation or an ethnicity or a culture or a people, so there's no reason for atheism to ever have to become or ever want to become a nationality.
>> What are your reasons for not supporting a one-state solution? Don’t you think that a joint state can be partially culturally Jewish, too?
My reasons are:
- Israel currently exists, albeit in an oppressie and supremacist form. I believe it should remain but be reformed and retain a benevolent and inclusive version of its predominantly Jewish culture.
- Palestine does not exist yet, but I believe it should exist as a state with a predominantly Palestinian culture. It will, necessarily, be different than Israel.
- Once the two secular, democratic and egalitarian states are established, their citizens can decide - over time and by employing to true self-determination (not the fraudulent kind Zio-supremacists believe in) - whether or not they would prefer to be united in a single secular, democratic and egalitarian state.
>> First of all, you would have to rename Israel “Jewland” to make it match the demonym “Jew”, similar to “Finland” and “Finn” or “Deutschland” and “Deutscher”.
Or make the country Israel and the bureaucratic nationality - of every citizen and immigrant - Jewish. If you're from Israel, you're Jewish, and in your country you have exactly the same rights as every other Jewish person.
>> Also, the word “Jew” would still have a double meaning ...
That would be something for "the Jews" to deal with. If "Jewish" isn't a bureaucratic nationality that can be acquired by citizens of a state, "Jewish State" remains a fundamentally-religious, supremacist construct.
Addendum: But if you REALLY want to ensure the survival of Israel's "cultural Jewishness" and if you REALLY want to ensure the survival of Israel as a Jewish state (and not as a supremacist "Jewish State"), make Jewish a bureaucratic nationality - like German and Canadian and Australian - so that:
- every citizen of Israel becomes Jewish;
- every immigrant to Israel becomes Jewish; and
- every person up to n generations removed from the geographic region that comprises Partition-borders Israel can be/come Jewish.
That way, Israel will always be Jewish, and everyone within it will be exactly equal to everyone else.
>> @eljay, pls just confirm whether you agree not to demand the right of return of 1948 Arab refugees into the “culturally Jewish” state?
It's not mine to demand or not demand. The Palestinians have a right to return. Some percentage of them will choose to return. Those that do would become Israeli.
>> If your answer is “no”, i.e., you will not demand the right of return, then it is a true opening, if you keep on demanding the right of return, then how long will “new” Israel remain “culturally Jewish”?
I expect that Israel would remain "culturally Jewish" as long as Israelis wish it to be "culturally Jewish". What it might morph into after that - "culturally Israeli" or "culturally something else" - would be for the Israeli citizens of the secular, democratic and egalitarian state of Israel to decide.
>> What I mean is that if you want Israel to remain “culturally Jewish”, then non-Jewish Israelis would still be a demographic threat.
If the "culturally Jewish" nature of Israel were accessible and inclusive and were to be embraced by non-Jewish Israelis, they would / should not represent a demographic threat. Regardless, the point is two states: Israeli and Palestinian. How those states would evolve would be up to Israelis and Palestinians.
>> If you want both the Israeli and the Palestinian state to be secular, then this means that neither state has a specific religious culture. In that case, you might as well have ONE secular state.
We've been told time and again that Jewish is more than just religion - that it's also an ethnicity and a culture. If that's true, a secular Israeli state could be "culturally Jewish" in a non-religious way. (If it's not true, then we're back to Jews really needing to figuring out just what exactly does "Jewish" mean.)
>> If you want all these rules to be applied to both states equally, then why not have a joint state?
Because I don't consider a joint state to be the best solution. But I could be wrong... ;-)
>> I remember some economist saying that Israel’s economy and the economy of the Palestinian territories are so intertwined that they can’t be separated anymore. Therefore, even a two-state solution would have to include an economic union. So, why not have one state?
It makes sense that the economy of the Palestinian territories is tightly bound to that of Israel, but I don't see why this would have to be the case for a sovereign state of Palestine, which would be free to choose economic and trading partners other than Israel.
>> @eljay, your “two-state solution” is really “one state solution”, it is not “two states for two peoples”.
Two secular, democratic and egalitarian states for two peoples:
- Israel, the "culturally Jewish" state of and for all Israelis, equally; and
- Palestine, the "culturally Palestinian" state of and for all Palestinians, equally.
>> You know that I like you ...
Thank you. The feeling is mutual. :-)
>> ... but I have some questions about your two-state solution:
>> What about the Law of Return for Jews? Would it be kept or abolished?
It would be abolished, given that all Jews are not Israelis or descendants of Israelis.
>> What about Israel’s flag and anthem?
Modified to be "culturally Jewish" but inclusive of non-Jews / non-Jewish Israeli citizens.
>> Why not grant a right of return AND compensation? Right of return OR compensation sounds like you want to bribe Palestinians into perpetual exile.
IMO, Palestinians who wish to return should be permitted to return and given assistance to resettle - as Israelis - within Israel. Those who choose not to return would receive some form / amount of compensation.
>> Would the right of return include all descendants of refugees (as in the German right of return)?
IMO, the right of return should apply only to original refugees and one generation removed. Beyond that, special immigration privileges would apply equally to all Israelis and their descendants up to n years removed from Israel - and that decision would be up to the Israeli government.
This would permit additional refugees to claim citizenship, as well as descendants of Israelis and any other people originally from the geographical region defined by Partition. Essentially the same idea would apply on the Palestine side of the border.
>> Don’t you think that it’s unfavourable to have a Palestinian state that is divided into Gaza and the West Bank with some other country inbetween?
I do, but IMO the settlement would require a reasonably wide, surface "land bridge" (for road and rail, with air-space rights for both Israel and Palestine in their respective flight directions) connecting Gaza to the West Bank.
>> Do you think that a non-Zionist Israel can remain “culturally Jewish” in the long term? I don’t think so. Therefore, why not opt for a one-state solution right away?
I think it could if Jewish culture in Israel were presented not as a symbol of oppression and supremacism - as it currently is by "Jewish State" Zio-supremacists - but as something to be appreciated and embraced by all Israeli citizens in a secular, democratic and egalitarian state.
>> ... its a one state now called israel ... one state with equal rights for all , a jewish state much like a moslem state since the majority are jews.
If it's one state with equal rights, then it's a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state, not a supremacist "Jewish state", which is no better than a supremacist "Moslem state".
>> . Is there anyone here who supports the “2 states solution”? PS: don’t forget, it has to be a real “solution”, not a “salami destruction of Israel” ...
I support a two-state solution:
- Israel, the "culturally Jewish", secular, democratic and egalitarian state of and for all the Israeli people, equally; and
- Palestine, the "culturally Palestinian", secular, democratic and egalitarian state of and for all the Palestinian people, equally.
Palestinian refugees can choose to return to Israel and become Israelis or accept payment in lieu and settle in Palestine (or elsewhere).
Israelis currently living outside of Israel's / Partition borders can return to Israel or apply to become Palestinian.
No salami destruction and no supremacism.
>> If the West Bank was annexed into Israel (if both parties agreed) the Palestinians would not have a demographic advantage. Assuming of course Gaza is left out and the non-existent RoR was ignored.
I agree: The non-existent "right" of return of any person of the Jewish faith anywhere in the world should be ignored.
>> Excuse me but this Mr. Danon and the rest of his ilk are, my god, arrogant pricks. Not only that, they are self righteous, ignorant, stupid fools.
They are, in a word, Zio-supremacists.
>> I do not wish for Jews to be compensated for the murdered Jews. ... When people say, the Jews were compensated it is a partial truth ... The Jews were not compensated for the murder of the millions ... nor should they be in any explicit way ... Accuracy is the point here ...
I agree that accuracy matters. So:
- if additional compensation is due, it must be negotiated in good faith, paid and the matter must then be closed; or
- if no additional compensation is due, compensation is complete and the matter can be closed.
A perpetual status of "partial" leaves the responsible party/ies perpetually vulnerable to emotional and/or financial exploitation.
>> Thanks for not disappointing me by failing to understand the difference between objective and subjective.
What I understood very clearly is that you have a tremendous problem with equality.
You had no trouble asserting that a Jewish person is worth $33,000,000 plus an infinite amount more money in compensation, but you simply couldn't bring yourself to make the same assertion when the person involved is a Palestinian.
Even in response to a hypothetical scenario, you were unable to look beyond your supremacism - you couldn't even pretend that a Palestinian should be worth the same as a Jew!
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.
>> I notice you substituted “n lives” for 3,000,000. Do you not accept the figures?
I used "[n lives]" in order to make your comments more universally applicable.
>> ... But I think those Palestinians who are part of the 1948 community should receive compensation, perhaps in the form of lifetime pensions, and my guess is that the new Palestinian state will receive a massive amount of international aid to help get it off the ground.
And there you have it:
- For Jews, " … no compensation will ever be enough … $33,000,000 [per life] and add some ... It will never be enough … "
- For Palestinians, lifetime pensions and some international aid. That's enough.
Thanks for not disappointing me.
>> ... no compensation will ever be enough ... OJ Simpson was assessed $33,000,000 for the wrongful death of two people. Multiply that by [n lives] ... and add some and you might approach a fraction of a proper figure. ... And no, the money won’t bring a single life back. ... It will never be enough ...
Well, at least now we know that "the Jews" will be on the hook for an infinite amount of money when it is finally their turn to pay for the murders they committed - and continue to commit - in Palestine.
Unless, of course, hophmee (typically) hypocritically determines that for Palestinians - unlike for Jews - there is a point at which enough money has been paid in compensation.
>> my main point: The Jews killed in Auschwitz, Treblinka and Babi Yar were all compensated for? When? And how much was each Jew worth?
Curious:
1. How many Jews do you think need to be compensated for? Just those who died? The dead and the survivors? The dead and the survivors and their descendants (to ? generations)? The dead and the survivors and their descendants (to ? generations) and Jews with more-tenuous ties to the Holocaust? What, in your opinion, is the number of Jews who need to be compensated for?
2. What dollar figure do you think the the total amount of compensation should amount to? What do you think each Jew was / is worth who needs to be compensated for?
3. When the compensation you think should be paid is paid and the Jews you think should be compensated for are compensated for, will that be the end of reparations?
Thanks.
>> Is it a crime not to be completely laid back about ourselves like you apparently are?
Zio-supremacists are as entitled as anyone else to their paranoia. Nothing criminal about that.
What neither they nor anyone else are entitled to - what is in fact very criminal and hateful and immoral and unjust - is an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.
>> john h @ June 10, 2013 at 8:50 pm
Thanks! :-)
And since some things are worth repeating, it likely won't be the last time you read it, either. ;-)
>> ... who do not acknowledge the uniqueness of the Holocaust in the first place.
Much as you might wish it were "The Bestest Genocide Ever!"(c), the Holocaust wasn't unique:
But even if it were unique, it wouldn't justify the creation of a oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine, or the Jewish terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians undertaken to create it, or the 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder employed to maintain and expand it.
>> If at all we should label them as peace products.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
Scary stuff from the land of hateful and immoral Zio-supremacism.
>> We get it; any plan that recognizes any kind of Jewish nationality you’ll oppose.
There has never been a plan to make Jewish a nationality.
If there were such a plan, Zio-supremacists wouldn't need to defend "Jewish State" anymore, since every immigrant - and every Palestinian rightfully returning - to "Jewish State" would acquire the nationality of Jewish and have the same rights as every other Jewish person.
Jewish State ex-pats and their descendants (up to n generations), and all people originally from the territory occupied by Jewish State, would be entitled to Jewish State nationality and preferential immigration to Jewish State.
I would support a plan that made Jewish a nationality. But there has never been one.
>> Is Israel’s conceding the territories it gained in 1967 ... enough to end the conflict without any further demands?
I can't see how it could be. Israel:
- isn't entitled to anything outside of Partition borders;
- is obligated to address the issue of Palestinian refugees; and
- has no right to exist as a supremacist "Jewish State".
>> ... basically you cannot be Jewish and accept Jesus, as you cannot be Vegetarian and eat meat.
We are told that Jewish is a religion, a culture, an ethnicity, a tribe, a people, a nation and a civilization.
We are told that a Jewish person can reject his gawd (i.e., become atheist) but still be Jewish because Jewish is more than just a religion.
But for some reason, it seems that if a Jewish person accepts his gawd and also accepts Jesus, it is not possible for him to be Jewish, even though Jewish is more than just a religion.
Interesting.
>> As such, circumcision is an act of submission and humility to the Creator and the divine plan — the very opposite of arrogance.
It seems a pity that someone or some group of individuals decided that this act of submission and humility to the Creator and his divine plan should require the mutilation of an infant's penis rather than, say, a vow - taken willingly at coming-of-age - to keep one's head or face cleanly shaven. ;-)
It seems an even greater pity that since that decision was made, gawd never bothered to chime in to say, "Thanks for the circumcision thing but, really, a good haircut now and again will do just fine."
>> Correction: He has no problem quoting the official Iranian translation of it ...
Please provide a link to an official translation of Ahmadinejad's comment that has him clearly and unequivocally calling for the genocide of Jews.
I don't believe such an official translation exists, or that Ahmadinejad has ever said such a thing, but I could be mistaken.
dimadokeee doesn't like "antisemitic fake" quotes, but he has no problem with the distortion of Ahmadinejad's quote about the passing of the Zio-supremacist regime (a good thing) into a Hitlerian call for the genocide of Jews (a very bad thing).
Smells of hypocriseee...
>> The illegal actions of the zionist regime and of the colonialist settlers have killed the 2SS. Only the 1S1P1V path is the solution now.
The insatiable greed of hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists helped make possible the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State", and the insatiable greed of hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists will have helped make possible its downfall.
The next best thing to efficiently exterminating people in order to take their land is to expel them.
Though some (many? most?) Zio-supremacists would undoubtedly prefer the former - even though it would likely mean inconveniencing some of their more-squeamish "liberal" co-collectivists, who would have to hold their noses during the proceedings - they will, unfortunately, have to settle for the latter and more-cumbersome method.
Aggressor-victimhood sure is a tough gig... :-(
>> Abu Mazen ... said that the agreements would be applied within the time frame agreed upon in Cairo. This means the formation of a temporary government led by Hamdallah for three months, until a new government is formed based on an agreement between Fatah and Hamas.
I guess we'll see what's what in three months' time...
I find it hard to believe that a candidate for the office of President of the United States of America wouldn't have a clue prior to taking office that he might not actually be the most powerful man in the world.
And I find it hard to believe that upon being told that he would be nothing more than a slick façade for the machinations of greedy / corrupt / evil men, a man of reputedly high legal and moral intentions would simply shrug his shoulders and play along.
I wonder: What repercussions might he have faced had he used his first nationally-televised address to clearly and succinctly:
- explain the situation ("I believed that, as president, I would have the power to undertake economic, social and legal reforms to reduce the debt, improve health care, reduce our military and our foreign interventions, et cetera; but men far more powerful than I am have told me in no uncertain words that they will not permit this, et cetera."); and
- immediately resign.
The message it would have sent to Americans would have been powerful.
The guns may not have barrels, but they're powered by Zio-supremacism. And that's deadly stuff.
>> Do you not understand the ... real [fear] that comes from everyone in a small country knowing a family who lost a loved one to a terrorist attack committed by people whose rhetoric is all about ... how they want to get rid of you?
A perfect description of the Palestinian condition: They have lost - and they continue to lose - homes, land, lives and livelihoods to a Zio-supremacist people whose actions (not just rhetoric) are all about how they want to get rid of the Palestinians because they covet Palestinian land and they value Jewish supremacism more than they value justice, morality and equality.
>> Jews wring their hands more than any ethnic group I know of. So this sentiment is nonsense.
Jews wring their hands, but hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists rub them together (in greed, anticipation, satisfaction).
>> A good description of people here who deny Jews their right to self-determination and even their history.
People of the Jewish faith in countries around the world have every right to their history. People of the Jewish faith in countries around the world do not have a right to a supremacist "Jewish State".
>> A stone-thrower in the glass-house, since many here deny Jews their right to self-determination.
People of the Jewish faith in countries around the world do not have a right to a supremacist "Jewish State".
>> Donald, like many here, you have little regard for what the Israelis actually face, and you’re simply evading the intellectual responsibility of attempting to understand a situation before judging it, as are most here.
Meanwhile, hophmeee - like all hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists - understands but refuses to accept the grave implications of these facts:
- Israel was envisioned as a supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine;
- Israel was born of Jewish terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands;
- Israel has been maintained and expanded by means of a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder;
- Israel refuses to halt this campaign, even though it has the power to do so immediately and completely;
- Israel refuses to withdraw to within its / Partition borders;
- Israel refuses to comply with its obligations under international law;
- Israel refuses to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace; and
- Israel refuses to be held accountable for past and ON-GOING (war) crimes.
While most people would prefer to see the victim liberated and the rapist delivered to justice, Zio-supremacists are like the rapist's friends who - although they are fully aware of the rapist's past and ON-GOING immoral and criminal activities - argue instead for applying "intellectual responsibility" to the situation ("he was bullied and abused as a child"; "he's a productive member of his community") even as the rapist continues to beat and rape the victim he has chained up in his basement.
>> You have ... a perverted sense of Jewish victimhood that blinds you to what Israel does and is.
You're letting hophmeee off the hook with that comment. The really ugly truth about hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists like hophmee and yrneee is that they know full well what Israel does and is - they are well aware of their "Jewish State's" oppression, terrorism, colonialism, illegality, immorality and supremacism - and they accept it, they justify it and they defend it.
The oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" may not quite yet be a "homogeneous state with a predominant ethnic majority and high barriers to societal entry", but it's well on its way thanks to:
- the Zio-supremacist goal of realizing Israel as a supremacist "Jewish state" of (Greater) Israel;
- Jewish terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder; and
- the efforts of hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists like hophmeee, who never fail to do their supremacist best.
>> Jewish murder syndrome. They can’t be called Israelis if they are murdered. Calling them Jews otherwise is antisemitic .
That's an interesting observation.
>> About his military work: "We do this because we love, we don't do this because we love killing."
You do it because you love your brand of Jewish supremacism and the supremacist state it has created. You don't do it for anything resembling justice, equality or morality.
>> "What we are witnessing is the result of a campaign of demonization and delegitimization against the only Persian country on Earth. ... "
Love it! :-)
>> Fifth-generation Italian-Americans aren’t Italian. Italians are Italian.
I agree. Which is precisely why simply being Jewish does not make one Israeli.
>> Israel has the plurality of Jews in the world. We celebrate its existence.
So what? That doesn't magically make Jews Israelis. I celebrate the existence of red wine, but that doesn't make me a Zinfandel.
>> There are quite a few Israelis in NYC, almost certainly more than Kiwis.
I don't doubt that there are, but Google won't tell me. Please do provide a link if you have one.
>> Yes, just as Italian-Americans celebrate the country with lots of Italians in it, Jews celebrate the country with lots of Jews in it.
Italian-American celebrations are hosted by Italian-American organizations. One would expect Israeli-American celebrations to be hosted by Israeli-American organizations, not by Jewish-American organizations, given that Jewish-Americans are not Israeli-Americans.
>> When there are enough Kiwis and Lesothis (?) in NY to fund a celebratory parade, if their community desires it, I’m sure they’ll be able to hold a parade. There are more than a million Jews in NY.
But:
- Jews aren't Israelis. Israelis are Israelis.
- How many Israelis are there in NYC? Are there more Israelis than there are Kiwis? (A Google search for "Israeli population of New York City" insists on telling me only about Jews in NYC.)
- The parade is being hosted not by an Israeli organization, but by the Jewish Community Relations Council of New York, which "serves as the central coordinating and resource organization in the community relations field for the New York Jewish community".
- Non-Jews are conspicuously absent from the list of sponsors, donors and floats. ("And the sign says you gotta have a membership card to get inside.")
Smells like a whole lot of Zio-supremacism.
>> Thrice in recent memory Israel laid offers of Palestinian statehood on the table. The offers included partitioning the Israeli capital, something unknown in the settling of other conflicts.
Israel offered to partition Tel Aviv? That's impressive. :P
Regardless, what Israel has utterly failed to do is:
- immediately and completely halt its 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder;
- withdraw to within its / Partition borders; and
- offer to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
It's hard to take seriously the offer to partition Tel Aviv when the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" of Israel continues to steal, colonize, destroy, terrorize, hate and kill.
>> Another example of the hypocritical double standard.
What double standard? This site is primarily about I-P. If this were a site about Turkey, and if I were a member of such a site, I certainly wouldn't spend my time excusing Turkey's unjust and immoral behaviour simply because Turkey isn't as bad as Saudi Arabia or Mali.
And here's the kicker: Neither would Zio-supremacists. But when it comes to Israel, Zio-supremacists suddenly acquire this ability to overlook unjust and immoral behaviour. Funny, that.
>> I’m writing to Ms. Keys to encourage her not to give in to whatever pressure or threats she’s facing. TelAviv will welcome her (and all the other international artists coming this summer).
In other words, you're being a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist. I'm chagrined that I ever gave you the benefit of the doubt... :-(
>> The Palestinians have the right to struggle against the occupation, and to live in peace and freedom , but not to deny the same rights to us.
Where, exactly, are Jews struggling against an occupation and the right to live in peace and freedom? And how, exactly, are Palestinians involved in this particular oppression?
>> How will the Zionists spin this? They scream “holocaust” ... and “anti- semite” regularly, yet deny the Nakba. This is proof of the massacre of the indigenous people! How will they wriggle out of this?
My guess is they will scream "[Remember the] Holocaust!"™ and "anti-Semite!"
It's worked for them so far - why would they mess with a successful formula?
>>* With more than 10,000 millionaires, why is Israel still a charity case?
>> With all this money sloshing around at the top of the system, it’s more than a little disappointing that Israeli soup kitchens still feel the need to come around to the global Jewish diaspora, cap in hand, looking for vital donations to help those on the bread line in Israel.
But...that's the Nazis' fault, isn't it? Because of the Holocaust, Jews from all over the world had to return to their ancient homeland of Israel; and then suddenly everyone there hated them for their freedoms and the hummus they invented; and with all the pizza parlours blown up, the soup kitchens were stretched to the limit; and then Hamas and Iran!
Anyway, Israel is better than Saudi Arabia or Mali, so I blame it on those damned Nazis... >:-(
Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists consistently defend the actions of the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" by employing the "yeah, but at least it's better than ... " defence.
That speaks poorly both of "Jewish values" and of the "Jewish State" as a "beacon unto the nations".
But Zio-supremacists don't seem to care, because as long as their supremacist "Jewish State" can get away with being marginally better than the worst, it doesn't have to try to be anywhere near as good as the best.
And, for hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists, being that bad is good enough.
>> Seems to me that there is no hope for peace in the Middle East until the Ashkenazi give up on their zionist quest, but that will never happen until they occupy and control the whole of the Levant.
I agree. Zio-supremacist greed is insatiable.
>> “TM”
>> That’s very funny.
To paraphrase Homer J.: "It's funny because it's true."
>> Did the Germans pay?
The Germans paid - and continue to pay - financially. And slurs against Germans as "Nazis" haven't died out just yet.
I can only hope that at some point Zio-supremacists are rightly made to pay for their crimes, and that the hateful ideology of Zio-supremacism dies along with the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" project.
Note: I do not wish to see Israel gone - I wish to see it transformed. I believe in a two state solution comprising:
- a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state - a "culturally Jewish" state of and for all Israelis, equally; and
- a secular, democratic and egalitarian Palestinian state - a "culturally Palestinian" state of and for all Palestinians, equally.
>> I’m waiting for the Hasbarists. Curious to see how they try to spin this one. Come on guys, earn your keep.
Too easy. First, they'll quote from this thread's article:
And then they'll add one or more of the following:
- terrorism (more commonly referred to as "terrrrrrr");
- "Jewish State" and/or Jewish homeland;
- suicide bombings / bombers / bombs (often includes mention of pizza parlours);
- ["Remember] the Holocaust[!"™];
- (the) Hamas / Iran / Hezbollah;
- "the only democracy in the Middle East";
- "not as bad as Saudi Arabia or Mali".
>> hophmeee: I’m not cheerleading for Israel here.
That is pure comedy gold! :-)
I also liked the part where he blamed the Palestinians living outside of Israel's / Partition borders - many (most?) of them victims of terrorism and ethnic cleansing at the hands of Zio-supremacist Jews - for Israel's 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
According to hophmeee, because the victim has no desire to become the rapist's love slave, it's her fault she remains chained up in the basement and is physically and sexually assaulted on a daily basis.
Too much...
>> Shavit maintained that Israel "is in many ways a miracle" ...
It is in no way miraculous, but it is in many ways unjust, immoral, hateful and supremacist.
>> Your link reads just like this one:
The similarities are uncanny and disturbing.
>> "Arutz Sheva has spoken to parents of children who visited the park over the past year."
For some reason, the article only refers to comments made by the parents of Jewish children. Either no "Arab" parents were interviewed, or their comments were deemed unworthy to print. Surprise, surprise.
>> This reminds me of a MLK speech about Funland ...
And this is likely what Zio-supremacists are thinking about - and nodding in agreement with - as they read this thread:
No Dr. King, your daughter can't go to Funtown
>> eljoke
Yes, yrneee?
>> You must be joking……. 2006
No, I'm not joking……. 2013. I'm quite serious. Mr. Waters may not have known, but eventually he found out and learned to care. You, on the other hand, know full well but you simply don't care. Worse, you defend and justify.
Day in and day out, knowing full well what hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists like you think, believe and do, you defend and justify.
>> What was different at the times he performed, Israel was the same “Jewish apartheid state”, or was it not…… would love to hear his answer for that.
The answer is simple: There was a time when perhaps he did not know what the supremacist "Jewish State" truly represented. Then he learned / learned more about it, and realized that the right thing to do was to advocate against its oppression, colonialism, illegality, immorality and supremacism.
Rightly so, and well done.
Unlike Mr. Waters, Zio-supremacists like yrneee and hophmeee know full well what their supremacist "Jewish State" is and what it does...and yet continue to support it fully. They choose of their own free will to remain mired in hatefulness and immorality.
She's an artist. She wants to be popular and make money. Israel is an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist an supremacist state but, in the words of Mr. Waters (and others): "The show must go on."
Kudos once again, Mr. Waters.
IMO, two things need to happen:
1. The oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" of Israel needs to:
- halt its ON-GOING occupation immediately and completely;
- withdraw to within its / Partition borders;
- enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace; and
- work to transform itself from an oppressive and supremacist "Jewish State" into a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state - a "culturally Jewish" state of and for all of its citizens, equally.
2. The Palestinians need to:
- abandon their desire for full RoR - perhaps limit it to those originally displaced plus one generation descended - and be more open to accepting payment in lieu;
- accept the existence of Israel as a secular, democratic, egalitarian and "culturally Jewish" state; and
- pledge to establish Palestine as a secular, democratic and egalitarian state - a "culturally Palestinian" state of and for all of its citizens, equally.
#1 is highly unlikely to happen. Hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists like hophmeee, miriam6eee and OlegReee; the entire Jewish-Israeli administration; and Zio-supremacist groups like AIPAC and their lickspittles - have made it quite clear that they value Jewish supremacism above all else.
#2 may happen, but it's not entirely clear (to me, anyway) that that's the case. I certainly hope it is.
>> We are young Jews and we get to decide what that means!
Deciding to be a hateful and immoral supremacist is pretty sad. Being proud of your decision is sadder still.
But they've got their work cut out for them: They have to learn how to terrorize, steal, colonize, destroy, hate and kill and feel victimized at the same time. (Aggressor-victimhood is a tough gig, y'know.)
I have no doubt they'll do their best, though: They are Zio-supremacists, after all.
>> Israel has been prepared to share a very tiny country with its own Arab neighbors – who refuse to share it with the Jewish people.
Palestinians are under no obligation to want to share what has been stolen from them with the Zio-supremacist thieves who stole it.
The supremacist "Jewish State" of Israel - born of Jewish terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands, and maintained and expanded by means of a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder - has never given any indication that it wishes to share itself with its Arab neighbours.
It has given no indication that it is prepared to end its 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
It has given no indication that it is prepared to allow the people who were ethnically-cleansed by Jewish terrorists from their homes and lands to return to their homes and lands.
At most, it has indicated that it is prepared to tolerate, within its supremacist "Greater Israel" borders, a non-Jewish minority permanently relegated to second-class status.
That's nothing for Palestinians to get excited about.
Jews suffered, and no-one denies it. What immoral Zio-supremacists like you do is take that suffering and use it not as a reason to pursue justice and equality - for Jews, and universally - but as justification for Jewish terrorism, the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands, and the establishment of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine.
And then, when Palestinians talk about their suffering - the past and ON-GOING suffering imposed upon them by Zio-supremacist Jews - and their desire to return to their homes and lands and their desire to have a single, democratic and egalitarian state in Palestine, you downplay, dismiss and/or belittle the reality and the validity of both their suffering and their claims, and you once again resort to justifying and defending Jewish supremacism in Palestine.
Time and again, it's been pointed out to you that the suffering of Jews in Germany and elsewhere (in time and space) does not constitute a moral or legal right to inflict suffering on Palestinians or anyone else.
Time and again, you ignore this and use the suffering of Jews to justify the suffering they inflict on others.
>> Those people are today Jews. And they exercised their right to self-determination.
Before they did that, they exercised some Jewish terrorism and ethnic cleasning on the Palestinians. How typically hateful and immoral of you to gloss over that.
>> After three adjectives, your sentence starts to sound stupid.
That's okay - yours sound stupid right off the bat.
>> They emigrated, they worked hard, they built.
And they terrorized, ethnically-cleansed, destroyed, stole, colonized and killed. And they continue to terrorize, destroy, steal, colonize and kill. Typical of you to gloss over that, too.
>> The UN recognized their right to self-determination.
Israelis - all Israelis - are entitled to self-determine as Israelis. Jews in Israel and in other countries around the world had and have no right to self-determine as supremacist "Jewish State".
>> ... I’m not willing to push my people to be your experiment when you’re doing zero to encourage this kind of secularization anywhere else.
I have never encouraged anything but secularism, democracy and equality. I can see how this lack of hypocrisy would gall a person like you.
>> The improper solution is to have the Jews, and no one else, give up their rights and allow dozens of Islamic states to continue to exist.
Jews do not have a right to a supremacist state. Muslims do not have a right to supremacist states. I see both forms of supremacism as immoral and unjust.
You, however, condemn supremacism in Islamic states, but are quite happy to defend and advocate for Jewish supremacism in a Jewish State. How utterly hateful and immoral of you. How Zio-supremacist of you.
>> Yes, Jewish suffering always seems pretty mild.
No one ever feels for the rapist, who suffers the slaps and punches of his victim. Aggressor-victimhood is such a tough gig... :-(
>> Ah, well, since we’re denying histories here, there is no such thing as “Historic Palestine” and no Palestinian today has any connection with it.
Doesn't matter whether or not there is an "Historic Palestine". What matters is that the geographical region know as Palestine was inhabited, and that the people who inhabited it were entitled to self-determine in it.
What is not right is that people of the Jewish faith from countries around the world decided that most - if not all - of that region belonged to them and that they had a right to cleanse the indigenous population from it and set up an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state in it.
>> There are nearly fix dozen Islamic states, but Cliff doesn’t care about those.
States have no business being Islamic. The proper solution is to encourage Islamic states to transform into secular, democratic and egalitarian states of and for all their citizens, equally.
The improper solution - the hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist solution - is to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State".
>> ... Israel has a right to survive as a homeland for the Jewish people.
Israel does not have the right to survive as a supremacist "Jewish State", a state to which people of the Jewish faith in countries around the world have an entitlement denied the Palestinians (and their descendants) who were driven from that geographical region.
Israel does, however, have a right to survive - within its / Partition borders - as the secular, democratic and egalitarian nation state of and for all its citizens, equally.
>> It should offer equal rights to the Palestinians in the contested areas.
Sure, including an equal "right of return" for all Palestinians in countries around the world.
Their hatefulness, immorality and greed drove Zio-supremacists to establish, expand, justify and defend an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine.
Their hatefulness, immorality and greed will ultimately destroy it.
And they will blame everyone but themselves. :-(
>> ... I agree with your analysis but not with the conclusion (in the last paragraph) because it has the potential of bringing chaos to Israel ...
A one-state solution has the ability - not just the potential - to bring an end to supremacist "Jewish State". That's what really bothers Zio-supremacists.
So what will Zio-supremacists do to secure a two-state solution which may permit supremacist "Jewish State" to live on (for a while longer, anyway)? Will they:
- end the occupation immediately and completely;
- withdraw to within their / Partition borders; and
- enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace?
Not likely. No, what they will most likely do is:
- continue to steal, colonize, oppress, destroy, hate and kill; and
- continue to play the victim.
Aggressor-victimhood is such a tough gig... :-(
>> Yes, applying a different (often exaggerated and misunderstood) standard to the Jewish version of elect and un-elected, sinner and saved, in-group (am/ummah) and out group, is one of the themes of classic anti-semitism.
So, as long as all forms of religion-based supremacism are detested equally, one cannot (legitimately) be accused of being anti-Semitic simply for also detesting Jewish supremacism.
Makes sense, and works for me.
>> Every country has the right to control its borders.
But no country has a right to be an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.
>> ... Israel is the only country in the world judged by a double standard.
Israel lives by a double standard: It claims to be a progressive democracy, when really it's just an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state, born of terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and maintained and expanded by means of a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
Hell, even the Zio-supremacists who defend it are unable to muster a defence better than "Israel is better than Saudi Arabia or Mali".
>> Their grandfathers left 70 years ago. They have been the citizens of other countries all their lives.
The cluelessness is breath-taking.
>> Has the wish to see Israel undone killed off common sense altogether even in the minds of intelligent people?
Israel has no right to exist as an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state. So you think "intelligent" Zio-supremacists would strive to ensure the survival of Israel as a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state - a state of and for all its citizens, equally, and with a predominantly Jewish culture.
But Zio-supremacists have proven - and continue to prove - to be three things: hateful, immoral and greedy. And this, IMO, is why Israel - and not just oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" - will ultimately be undone.
Mr. Wiener is unable to comprehend the difference between:
- a blanket condemnation of all Muslims as "savages"; and
- referring to the supremacist "Jewish State" of Israel as an "apartheid" state.
Mr. Wiener is:
- a dick;
- a dummy; and/or
- a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.
>> Israeli Arab Judge, Salim Jubran, has been appointed to the head of Israel Central Election committee-
So Israel's occupation of Palestine is over? Israel has withdrawn to within its / Partition borders? Israel has agreed to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace? Israel is no longer an oppressive and supremacist "Jewish State" and is now a secular, democratic and egalitarian state of and for all of its citizens, equally?
Didn't think so...
I congratulate Ms. Benjamin for her courage and resolve. But I find nothing to praise in Mr. Obama's words.
Kerry's comments are another load of nothing.
J.K.: "Are you absolutely sure I have to do this?"
B.N.: "C'mon, John, it's only this big! Obama took it, no problem, so I know you can, too. I mean, you do support the Jewish State, yes?"
S.P. [sleepily]: "Mmmm...donkey..."
What an absolutely f*cking barbaric attack! I unreservedly condemn it.
I have no doubt, however, that Zio-supremacists will approve of the precise, surgical nature of the strike - they seem to approve of that sort of thing when "we" do it to "them" - although I suspect they may be disappointed that the attack wasn't given a nifty code-name such as, say, "Operation Carving Vengeance".
>> America is at war with terrorism.
Of course it is. I also hear that "they hate us for our freedoms".
Too funny...
In other words, they're saying they need to ensure that Israel becomes a "more betterer" supremacist "Jewish State". They sure as hell aren't talking about fighting to make Israel a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli state of and for all of its citizens, equally.
Figures that a guy like hophmeee would praise a "kinder, gentler Zio-supremacism" as though it were any less hateful and immoral than the regular stuff.
>> ... some [people] do believe Jews have a right to self-determination.
If "self-determination" means "a supremacist 'Jewish State'", some people either are hateful and immoral supremacists, or have been deceived by hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists.
Jews do not have a right to a supremacist state. No group is entitled to a supremacist state.
>> It’s not a great situation. But this is what happens when Palestinians dress as civilians, strap on suicide belts, and kill Israelis, Jew and Arab alike.
As usual, a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist glosses over the ugly reality of...
- Jewish terrorism and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their homes and lands,
- the creation of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine, and
- the supremacist "Jewish State's" 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder,
...and simply blames the Palestinians for the resulting "not a great situation".
Which, once again, proves that:
- Zio-supremacists truly are hateful and immoral people; and
- aggressor-victimhood is such a tough gig. :-(
>> Rejecting someone because of his citizenship is NOT okay.
German Lefty:
- I agree.
- IMO - and FW(little)IW - you're making the better arguments.
:-)
>> ... denying Jews have any historical right to the Holy Land
Jews - that is, people living in countries around the world, who happen to be of the Jewish faith - do not have any historical right to the Holy Land.
>> ... Jews have no claims to Israel/the Holy Land.
Jews - that is, people living in countries around the world, who happen to be of the Jewish faith - have no valid claim to Israel / "the Holy Land".
>> ... we all understand that the miracle of 48 and the founding of the State ...
There was nothing miraculous about it. But it's not surprising that a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist would consider an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State", born of Jewish terrorism and ethnic cleansing, to be a miracle.
>> When we were reading of 3000 bodies a month showing up on the streets of Baghdad bearing horrific signs of torture ... this was all courtesy the United States.
We think the price was worth it.
>> This is silly. Every country has the right to refuse entry to suspected foreign troublemakers. ... MOST countries in the world, ie: China, Russia, Mexico treat suspected spies and saboteurs at their borders MUCH more severely than Israel.
Don't forget Saudi Arabia and Mali. Israel isn't as bad as they are.
>> Patinkin is (at the least) a liberal Zionist ...
I wasn't aware that he was pro-"Jewish State". It's a pity that he is.
>> Israel is ... the most tolerant nation in the region.
"Israel: We may not be as good as the best but, hey, at least we're not as bad as the worst!" (c)
>> Maybe Israel was left out because it is a tiny country.
The oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" of (Greater) Israel may be physically tiny, but it contains an astonishing amount of Zio-supremacist injustice, immorality, hatred and supremacism.
>> ... your warped view of the world.
A hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist accuses someone of having a warped world view. That's funny! :-)
>> More of what Taxi calls “armed resistance” – and decent people call “terrorism” – will only mean more misery and bloodshed for all the peoples of the region.
Wow. You could not have shown your hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist colours any more clearly than you just did.
So, what - other than continue to steal, colonize, destroy, hate and kill - will the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" do to defuse the possibility of armed resistance (yeah, I'm an "indecent person") against it?
That's what I thought. Aggressor-victimhood is a tough gig... :-(
>> roha, it’s because the o in lose sounds like the oo’s in moose, goose, snooze and caboose.
But...when you spell the word "lose" as "loose", you end up with the word "loose". Seems to me it would make more sense to spell it "looze".
If you're going to spell things incorrectly, the least you can do is get it right. ;-)
:-P
>> "Reading the names of the [destroyed] villages leaves it open to interpretation and many people believe that the state of Israel is a consequence," said Ben Gross, 26, from Im Tirtzu. Gross explained that his group does recognize a catastrophe was experienced by the Palestinian people during Israel's war of Independence, but qualifies without proper context, Israeli's will be led astray to feelings of guilt and remorse over their territorial gain.
Funny how "proper context" never seems to include the fact that, among other things, Zio-supremacist Jews:
- desired a supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine; and
- employed terrorism and ethnic cleansing to realize their desire for a supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine.
The rapist admits that the victim he kidnapped and chained in his basement has bruises on her face and torso, but without "proper context", one might assume that he simply kidnapped her and chained her in his basement.
Will Zio-supremacists ever experience a moment of clarity and realize just how hateful and immoral they really are and do something positive about it? (Laughing smugly - à la eee - doesn't count.)
>> I can imagine how humiliated Obama must have felt sucking up to pro-Israel donors and spouting what he must know is nonsense ...
Funny - I can't imagine him feeling the least bit humiliated. Unlike Dubya - who was a dunce and a sock-puppet - Barry O. is an intelligent man who is well aware of what's going on in the world, and who is willing to play along. If he ever had any morals or conscience, he either set them aside or lost them years ago.
>> During the next four years, the Israel-Palestine conflict will be Obama’s “Chinatown”. Like that “nosy fella”* Jake Gittes when he was assigned to Chinatown, Obama will do “as little as possible” regarding Israel’s occupation of the West Bank. Expect to see a heavily camouflaged policy of “benign neglect”.
Well, so much for the expectations many people had that Obama would come out swinging on I-P during his second term.
>> Speaking of Jews and Palestinians, here’s a recent quote from a Fatah Central Committee member that Phil isn’t likely to publish.
According to the article:
OK, that's good.
So what does he say in the article?
First, he appears to be referring to continued resistance against the immoral and unjust actions of the colonialist and expansionist "Jewish State" of (Greater) Israel:
I don't see a problem with that.
The discussion turns to the "negotiation game":
I don't see a problem with that, either.
I do, however, see a problem with this next comment of his, and I condemn it:
On a side note: JPost doesn't seem too concerned by Mr. Rajoub's comments.
>> Ms Awad doesn’t have the Arab sticker tattooed on her arm does she?
Have faith: Given enough time, Zio-supremacists will get around to it.
Of course, even if they don't, the fact remains that the oppressive and supremacist "Jewish State" is treating Jews and non-Jews differently, and the hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists are defending - rather than condemning - this practice.
>> The fourth most popular comment so far claims that Mondoweiss is a white supremacist site and 'the they are the sons of Stormfront'. A few comments down is this gem, "Mondoweiss is relatively known– for their antisemitic and far left leanings. ... "
It's amazing - and rather sad, actually - that advocating for peace, justice, equality and morality can actually offend anyone; and that the offended people aren't aware of their own hatefulness, immorality and supremacism.
(Or, worse, that they are aware of it, but prefer to wield it and wallow in it.)
"All Israelis are equal, but some Israelis are more equal than others."*
(*with tremendous apologies to George Orwell)
The stickers are just another example of the ugliness and immorality that define the oppressive and supremacist "Jewish State".
>> Always with the ad hominem attacks (strangely allowed) ...
They're not "ad hominem attacks" - they're statements of fact. You are a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist, and Israel was created by and continues to exist as a supremacist "Jewish State" because of people like you.
>> ... and the tedious, repetitive cut and paste comments.
They're not cut-and-paste - I type them out every time. It's very much worth the effort.
>> But to answer what little content is in your comment, the number of Palestinian Arabs within the West Bank is no threat to Israel. If the residents of the West Bank were interested in annexation and citizenship they could probably have it just by asking.
That doesn't even remotely answer my question. But I'm not surprised.
>> You have no idea what they will offer. And there is no “demographic threat” when Gaza and the refugees are removed from the equation.
You're right - I don't know what the supremacist "Jewish State" will offer. But since it is a supremacist "Jewish State" - envisioned, realized, maintained and supported by hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists like you - and since it gives every indication of wanting to remain a supremacist "Jewish State", I have every reason to believe that Israel will not offer citizenship, voting rights and 1S1P1V to all non-Jews in the West Bank.
As for "no demographic threat", is that because:
- non-Jews don't breed;
- intermarriage will not be permitted; and/or
- Zio-supremacists have some other, much darker plan in mind?
Please, do tell.
>> So if Israel were to offer the annexation of the West Bank along with citizenship, voting rights and 1S1P1V ...
Bu Israel won't offer that, because it would spell the beginning of the end of supremacist "Jewish State". And hateful and immoral Zio-supremacists love their supremacist "Jewish State" far too much to see it become a secular, democratic and egalitarian Israeli State of and for all of its citizens, equally.
>> I would prefer to see a breakthrough that will bring to negotiation.
Sounds good! So, what kind of breakthrough is the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" of (Greater) Israel offering that will bring to negotiation?
Is it offering:
- to immediately and completely halt the occupation of Palestine?
- to withdraw to withdraw to within its / Partition borders?
- to be held accountable for its past and on-going (war) crimes?
- to honour its obligations to Palestinian refugees?
- to enter into sincere negotiations for a just a mutually-beneficial peace?
- to transform itself from a supremacist "Jewish State" into a secular, democratic and egalitarian state of and for all its Israeli citizens?
Didn't think so. Looks like the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" - and the Zio-supremacists who support it - don't really want to see any progress.
Imagine that.
>> The reason for that is that these people collectively evince no interest in anything Jewish except this issue ...
Jewish, we are told, is a religion, a collective, a people, a nation, a culture, an ethnicity, a tribe and a civilization. I suspect "these people" evince plenty of interest in things Jewish other than this issue.
Great post, Mr. Ellis.
>> After all, I assume a Palestinian state will be more or less as corrupt as the state of Israel is.
I sincerely hope that Palestinians aim much higher than do Zio-supremacists, who seem to be content to strive for as little justice and morality as possible.
Good on Mr. Greenwald for smacking Bill Maher down.
And there's the problem: The oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" of (Greater) Israel care's not for international law.
>> eljay
>> Read carefully what your Ramzi writes
yrneee:
1. Ramzi is not mine.
2. Read carefully what you write. You referred to Phil as a joke. Phil advocates for peace, justice and morality. By contrast, you - a hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist - advocate for hatefulness, immorality and supremacism. You are the joke...and a bad one at that.
>> You are a joke
The real joke is the person who denounces those who advocate for peace, justice and morality while, in return, offering only hatefulness, immorality and supremacism.
Actually, that's not a joke, that's disgusting. And that - in a nutshell - is Zio-supremacism.
>> Your problem with me is that I am 9 Generation in Israel.
Your problem with reality is that Israel hasn't been around for nine generations. So perhaps you are nine generations in Palestine. In which case, your goal should be to fight for justice for yourself, your family and all your fellow Palestinians, and not for an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State".
Since you scorn the former and advocate for the latter, you are just another hateful and immoral Zio-supremacist.
>> So no wonder these Yeshiva kids are happy and proud.
Only hateful and immoral people find pride in replacing one injustice with another.
>> it’s disgusting and goes on and on and on.
What's even more disgusting is the fact that Zio-supremacists are all too eager to defend, justify, excuse and approve the immoral and unjust acts committed - past, present and on-going - by the supremacist "Jewish State".
Rather than advocate for morality, justice, equality, accountability, fairness, human rights and just plain decency, they are content to wallow in immorality and injustice all for the sake of their supremacist ideology and their oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State".
It truly is disgusting. :-(
>> As eljay says, “aggressor-victimhood is a tough gig”.
Zio-supremacists certainly make it seem that way. ;-)
>> Israel is surrounded by a hostile sea of Arabs ...
Yeah, it makes no sense, especially since the only thing Zio-supremacists ever did was use terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" in Palestine. And engage in a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder. And refuse to be held accountable for past and on-going (war) crimes. And refuse to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
:-(
>> Some who post on this site demand that Palestine have the ability to threaten Israel.
I don't recall seeing anyone demanding that Palestine have the ability to threaten Israel. I do recall seeing people - including me - voicing their expectations that Palestine be permitted to acquire the military (land/air/sea) capabilities necessary to defend itself, its territory and its citizens from aggressors.
Given the past and on-going actions of the oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist "Jewish State" and its "no light between us" partner in *cough* "peace", the expectation is perfectly reasonable.
>> Israel is the world’s only Jewish state.
You say that as though it's a good thing. As though it's somehow just or moral for Jews to have what is, fundamentally, their own religion-supremacist state - a oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state, founded by means terrorism and ethnic cleansing, and engaged in a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
Then again, that's pretty much what one would expect from a Zio-supremacist.
(Yes, yes, I know: Saudi Arabia and Mali are worse. It's always nice to see Zio-supremacists striving to adhere to just slightly more than the lowest possible moral standards.)