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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
>> ... many Jews do desire to self-associate in Israel ...
And no one has the heart to tell them it's time to grow up and stop pretending that they're "Israelites".
>> In fact, the summation of Morris’ views is that Jews innocently wanted to ‘return’ ...
"Return"? You have to have left something in order to return to it. Oh, I get it, this is part of that whole "long-term exile" joke of Mr. Witty's. Funny. :-)
>> For example, if the question of the right of return ends up as the maximalist ‘any descendant of any Palestinian refugee has the right to return to Israel currently’, and that that is a critical component of reconciliation or none, then none will be the result.
But if the question of the right of return ends up as the stabilizing "any descendant of any Palestinian refugee has the right to return to Israel currently AS LONG AS he/she comes bearing some green yarn", and that that is a critical component of reconciliation or none, then reconciliation will be the result. :-)
Here's my free poem:
Though driven from our homes and land, we reach out with an open hand
beneath the glow of heaven's sun and send our love to everyone.
We seek with foes to reconcile, that children once again may smile
and dream of futures free from strife, of growing old and living life.
Our hearts did break, our bodies, too; but let us now rebuild anew
our homes, our hopes, our history - between the river and the sea.
Alrighty, then: Let the changing of Israel's misguided ways begin! :-)
>> Its probably closer to what the left presents (at least as far as Palestinians’ civil rights), but because the left is so excessive and condemnatory (rather than informative), it falls on deaf ears.
No more excessive and condemnatory movies, books, plays or speeches about the Nazis and/or the Holocaust. From now on, they will be strictly informative. :-)
>> Someone somewhere must be around that could raise $100,000 for a complete and effective film or multi-media presentation that is descriptive merely, so could be presented and welcomed in public venues.
I've read that a $1.95 ball of green yarn and a free poem or two can accomplish the same thing.
>> “I would hope that if we became persuaded that the Israelis were about to act, whatever we thought of the wisdom of that action, we would consider that the worst of all possible outcomes would be a failed Israeli action. And we would therefore do what we could to see that it didn’t fail. You can change policy very quickly. . . you did not want it to happen, but now it’s gonna happen and suddenly you recalibrate. At least I hope you recalibrate and in the event we might reconsider whether our opposition, carried forward, is helpful or harmful.”
Un-fucking-believeable. "We don't want war, but if we think Israel is going to attack Iran, and if we think Israel's aggression may fail, we're going to blow Iran all to hell." These neocons are seriously fucked in the head.
Iran is facing an existential threat from Israel AND the United States, in addition to the maximalist and destabilizing sanctions already in place...but Iran is the leader of the "rogue axis", the destroyer of nations, the threat to the entire solar system. Un-fucking-believeable.
>> I value the right of Jews in Israel to self-govern.
What happens to the non-Jews in Israel? Do they get any self-government? So much for that "only democracy in the Middle East".
>> Eljay…you are…
>> Today’s Winner of “The Mooser Humor Award”!!
Woo-hoo!! :-)
So, do I get an official "Moosie" or something for my family-room mantelpiece? ;-)
BTW, is this guy an example of the warm 'n fuzzy "liberal Zionism" that is supposed to be (along with green yarn) the cure for all of Israel's ills?
>> RW: I would question if Beinart meant what your quote ascribes.
I'm not asking Israel to be Utopian. I'm not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced out (or fled) in 1948 to return to their homes. I'm not even asking it to allow full, equal citizenship to Arab Israelis ...
Yeah, the ambiguity is devastating.
--- ---
>> She says she used Wiesel's persona in her three-character play (which includes Madoff's secretary) because "his name is synonymous with decency, morality, the struggle for human dignity and kindness, and in contrast to the most notorious financial criminal in the past 200 years. That's why he was there, and I felt I had treated his character with great respect -- the respect that I genuinely have felt for him."
. . .
Roth offered to have Margolin revise the play, replacing Wiesel with a fictional character. She began to work on it, he says, but finally rejected the idea. Says Margolin, "Unfortunately, I didn't really feel . . . I could do all those things. And I asked my agent to withdraw the play."
--- ---
She couldn't find a single other person who represents "decency, morality" and "the struggle for human dignity and kindness"? Wow.
Well, at least she wasn't threatened with assassination, as occasionally happens when Islam is "disrespected".
>> As for Gaza, if the Israelis had treated the Palestinians as human beings from the start, and they had still received rocket fire, then they would have had the right to use carefully targeted violence, and not war crimes, in response. That was not the case. I don’t think the Palestinians should be using violence and the Israelis have much less right to use it than the Palestinians.
Well said. Mr. Witty, however, appears to be all for "better arguments" and green yarn and poetry...but only if the Palestinians and their supporters are the ones offering the arguments, yarn and poetry. The Israelis, on the other hand, are expected only to offer the patience, restraint, reasoning and wisdom that comes from having suffered the Holocaust and "long-term exile". And if that fails, well, there's always mass murder in the name of self-defence.
>> ... the point is when Hamas destroys houses that doesn’t seem to bother Philip Weiss or Adam Horowitz. Do you notice not one single word about this was said by Philip?
You seem to have the same comprehension issues eee had. This site is about Israel's abuses against the Palestinians, not about the abuses of Palestinians against each other. If you want to voice your concern about what Palestinians do to other Palestinians, join a blog that deals with that issue or start a blog if you can't find one to join.
Yes, it does seem rather spiteful of Hamas - incorrectly described as the group that "seized power in Gaza in July 2007" (they were democratically elected) - to have torn down those homes. But, right or wrong, that has nothing to do with Israel's actions against the Palestinians, just like the U.S.'s treatment of Native Americans has nothing to do with Israel's actions against the Palestinians.
>> these black coats are much too common to make that kind of assumption.
I was going to say the same thing: Two photos, taken roughly a year apart, showing a woman in a black coat (or a woman in a black dress at top, a woman in a coat in the linked-to photo). It could be the same woman, but not necessarily.
I'm not saying it's not the same person - I'm just saying there's no definitive link between the two photos to prove that it is.
>> The woman at the left seem to be the same as in the photo in the post. The same padded shoulders coat.
The coat appears to be the same, but the head-scarf is different. There's no way to know if the two women are one and the same.
>> How do you know these yeshiva boys are not having a light hearted moment with the woman?
Hmmm...come to think of it, the Israeli who appears to be throwing a cup of wine at that woman might simply have been trying to wash away some of the nearby graffiti and she, being appreciative of his efforts and not wanting to interfere with his good deed, was simply getting out of the way.
link to warincontext.org
>> Don’t most religions presuppose that their adepts are the “Chosen People”?
Yes, but when it comes to the monotheistic god, the Jews/Hebrews/Israelites were the first ones, the chosen ones; everyone else is a mistaken wanna-be. Christianity is a knock off, and Islam is an even more ridiculous re-hash / re-warming of Judeo-Christianity.
Although I gotta say that Mohammed was pretty slick for: i) cashing in on the Abraham -> Ishmael lineage thing; ii) seizing on the "one who will come after me" line to secure himself a post as that guy; and iii) stating unequivocally that he was the last prophet, end of story, what I say is the final word.
>> Although we don’t need to see her expression, it says more, since we can imagine what she is experiencing.
Yes, it's abundantly clear that she is hating their freedoms. ;-)
>> I think one of the reasons is that these people have been brainwashed into thinking that they are the “Chosen People.”
Not to steal zamaaz's thunder, but the Old Testament *does* declare the followers of the Hebrew/Jewish "god" to be "Chosen People". It cannot possibly be coincidental that that the men who created this god and his proclamations - and the group of religious simpletons people to whom they belonged - wound up being the "Chosen Ones" rather than, say, damned to eternal subservience to some other group of people.
>> Where is Liberal Zionism in that photo? How, Witty does this reach these thugs? ... You should just remain quiet and bow your head in shame.
Dude had to say something, but since I had used up most of his talking points in my 5:22 post, I guess that didn't really leave him much to say. ;-)
I almost wish eee were here to tell us about how the Native American were treated back in 1793... ;-)
Ah, but is it as compelling as the green yarn which those fine young men do not appear to be offering to the Palestinian woman whose home has been occupied by "Jewish settlers"?
(Shouldn't that be "Israeli settlers"? Or are Jews of other nationalities getting in on the fun?)
How dare this woman argue with these fine young men! Why, that's just destabilizing and maximalist! Where is her green yarn? Where is her poetry? Where is her willingness to understand "the other"? Why is she presenting herself as a victim instead of a human being? Whe does she hate Israel so much?!
Seriously, though: Where is the hand of blind justice to slap some sense into those fucking pukes.
>> "Doggedly determined to thwart Iran's nuclear ambitions, Levey has traveled the world in recent years to convince foreign financial institutions to cut ties with Iran. ..."
Clearly he missed the memo from Mr. Witty that green yarn and poetry, not maximalist ties-cutting, is the way to win hearts and minds.
Or maybe peace and love don't matter when one has already decided that the country in question is the leader of a "radical axis"...
>> How is this not an outstanding effort by an occupied nation?
The Palestinian leadership forgot the most important thing: Green yarn on the green line. According to Mr. Witty, that is the magical solution to all of the Palestinians' woes.
When "we" (the Israelis, the US, the West, the "good guys") hate and kill and instill hatred and murder in others, it's righteous, it's noble, it's justifiable.
When "they"(the Palestinians, the Ay-rabs, the "terrrrrists") do it, it's evil, it's barbaric, it's "existentially threatening". Clearly, they hate us for our freedoms.
I'm sure that Mr. Witty will soon appear to chide DavidSiden for condemning Hamas instead of extending to them the other end of the length of the green yarn of peace and friendship which he holds in his hand.
I admire their willingness to continue dealing with the people they respect (imagine that!) and I like how this forces the institutions to put pressure on the Israeli government.
True, it's not green yarn and these people haven't suffered "long-term exile", but it's pretty damned admirable just the same. :-)
>> One of Israel’s primary concerns in negotiations and reconciliation is of confident safety for civilians, and permanence for the state …
I forgot to add: And, of course, any move by Iran to secure the safety of its civilians and permanence for the state is viewed as threatening, but when others do it, it's righteous and good and just. The hypocrisy of it all makes me ill.
>> A senior source in Jerusalem said that in return for renewed diplomatic relations, the Qataris demanded that they be allowed to carry out a series of reconstruction projects in the Gaza Strip and to import the necessary construction materials.
An offer of reconstruction - damned if that's not the green yarn and poetry of peace! But, no, it's apparently nothing but latent evil, easily devined by Qatar's "move closer to the radical axis headed by Iran". (Whose ass did "radical axis" get pulled out of?!)
>> One of Israel’s primary concerns in negotiations and reconciliation is of confident safety for civilians, and permanence for the state ...
Blah, blah, blah. Israel presents more of an "existential threat" to Palestinians - and Israel and the U.S. present more of an "existential threat" to Iran - than Iran represents to anyone and yet, hypocritically, neither Israel nor the U.S. is part of this "radical axis".
Very thoughtful, very succinct, very classy.
>> Hoyt thinks “settlements” is a charged word because it merely “suggests” that Israelis are living on Palestinian land.
Good thing the issue of the word "exile" didn't come up - that REALLY would have fucked people up! 8-o
>> He does not have the right to express views that are harmful to true peace in the region.
I would very much appreciate a detailed reply of what "true peace in the region" consists of. Thanks. :-)
He and zamazz (assuming they are not one and the same person) could jointly create one, and they could call it "Shamazz!"
The exclamation mark makes it very exciting. :-)
>> and it does create for him an entitlement to something that does not belong to him.
Should have read "and it does not create for him an entitlement...
>> There is absolutely no difference between Jordan and Palestine, nor between Jordanians and Palestinians ...
Jews lived in Palestine - Mandate Palestine - which, according to you, was really Jordan. So people of the Jewish faith are Jordanians, as are other Mandate Palestinians who are not of the Jewish faith.
>> (all actually Arabs)
What about the Christians? Did they convert to Islam or Judaism? Or did the disappear? Or were/are they just imaginary?
>> This land was given as a gift by G-d to the Children of Israel ...
What a joke. A "god" is a mytho-religious-political entity created by men to consolidate power, to impose their collective will upon their communities and to justify their crimes of theft, aggression and slaughter. A "god" has no right or authority to give or to take away and, in the 21st Century, only fools or fanatics would look to a "god" to determine property rights (or anything else).
Whatever the Israelites had 2,000 years ago is long gone, as are the Israelites themselves. Jews are people of the Jewish faith. Their nationality is that of the nation in which they are born and reside. They are not exiled Israelites and they do not have any rights - god-given or otherwise -to some long-lost "kingdom".
Drop the yoke of self-imposed, self-indoctrinated "exile" and "sorrow" and all that other "profound" self-flagellation and get on with life. Moaning and wailing and pining and intense contemplation of "scripture" does not turn a person of the Jewish faith into an Israelite and it does create for him an entitlement to something that does not belong to him.
>> How could people that went through a holocaust be treating others with so much brutality?
I think it's just a way for "a nation" of people who have suffered long-term exile to help others understand and appreciate just how profound that suffering is. :-)
>> If they accuse the Nakba presenters of telling lies, their comeback is evident — tell truth to overcome the lies.
Or make the "better argument" and shower the Nakba presenters with green yard and regale them with poetry. :-)
>> What a dumb idea!
Yup. The reality of the situation can be conveyed quite effectively using actual photos and video.
>> She also said that it was an Arab “festivit[y]” to delegitimize and destroy Israel.
She forgot to add that it's not nearly as big as the Holocaust, that "bestest of the best" festivity which, is turns out, has also been a useful tool of delegitimization.
>> Apparently Goldstone is a Palestinian activist, too.
I read that he's an anti-semitic, Israel-bludgeoning traitor. Funny that his detractors shower him with hateful epithets instead of with bits of green yarn of peace.
>> “Israeli forces caused extensive destruction of homes, factories, farms and greenhouses in areas under IDF control without any evident military purpose. These cases occurred when there was no fighting in these areas; in many cases, the destruction was carried out during the final days of the campaign when an Israeli withdrawal was imminent.”
Hmmm...plants are green, the same colour as the colour that represents Hamas, the Islamist organization bent on annihilating Israel. Maybe that's why, in an IDF-controlled area where there was no fighting going on, homes, factories, farms and greenhouses were destroyed.
I don't know about Mr. Witty, but to mee that seems a lot more damaging to the cause of "winning hearts and minds" than the absence of green yarn along the green line.
The whistling was annoying, though... ;-)
Hmmm...I actually see nothing remotely disturbing in that video. The "hitting sheep with his rifle" was more "shoving his rifle at the sheep", and the one or two kicks he gave were glancing blows to moving targets.
Take a look at any video on PETA's website and you'll see some REAL animal cruelty. :-(
>> The painful, and embarrassing, conclusion is that, left to their own devices, Israelis and Palestinians are incapable of reaching an agreement.
Except that they haven't been left to their own devices, and the U.S.'s generous political, financial and military support to Israel has tilted the table so severely in Israel's favour that it is not constrained to bargain in good faith. (And no, Shamir, throwing scraps to the Palestinians does not constitute "good faith" bargaining.)
>> The question is entirely benign and non-political ...
Oh, I don't know. Now that I see it in its entire context, it's pretty clear that Israel is the one attacking the Palestinians. ;-)
I shouldn't joke: Clearly the suffering she has endured during her long-term exile from the Promised Land has affected her quite profoundly. Palestinians can only dream about that kind of suffering and trauma. :-)
>> The article is very specific that it is “unusual” for the author’s nationality to be included in the description of the author of the text. In the article it stated that all of the other authors on this year’s test were quoted without identifying their nationality and the last time an author’s nationality was included was two years ago.
So the identification of Mr. Said's nationality is not an exclusive event, just an "unusual" one. Yes, somehow, this rendered a 16-year-old college girl incapable of reading his eloquent, neutral, inclusive quote and comparing it "to other works … studied in class”. It lead her, instead, to "have the impression that Israel is the one attacking [the Palestinians]”.
That little girl is messed up from far too much indoctrination.
>> Your projecting eljay.
No, I don't believe I am. I've never been much of a projector. :-)
>> The comparative and, it appears, the very-subjectively more profound sense of loss, yes.
More precisely, that should say: The comparative sense of loss of many Jews that is construed, in a highly-subjective way, as being more profound than the loss suffered by Said or anyone else, yes.
>> It definitely was a commentary on Said’s sense of loss, and the comparative sense of loss of many Jews.
The comparative and, it appears, the very-subjectively more profound sense of loss, yes.
>> Those are your words, not mine. My point that I elaborated on was that Jews were in exile so long and desired to remain coherent that they adopted the view, “my family is my home, my community is my home”, not “my physical place is my home”.
Point taken. My apologies for misunderstanding the context of your comment.
That being said, it still has absolutely nothing to do with the girl's politicization of a completely a-political quote and test.
>> So people do not need to be educated on the Palestinian narrative.
Whether or not they do, the kicker is that the quote itself was not political, the quote in context of the test was not political and the purpose of the test - to takes quotes such as that one and "compare them to other works ... studied in class” - was not political. The girl turned the quote and the test into a political statement.
Her politicization of the test and the quote should be condemned. The story should not be spun into an analysis of the superior suffering of the "long-term exile" Jews. That has absolutely nothing to do with the quote, the context or the test.
But it makes for a great lament. ("Remember the Holocaust!")
>> Do Israelis use Arabic numerals, or is there a Hebrew system? If so, do they call them Arabic numerals?
Perhaps they're referred to as "peace numerals", and they come in only one colour. You guess it: "Yarn green". :-)
>> I don’t recall ever invoking the “Jews know suffering like no other” theme at all.
You stated "There is a cultural disconnect between a more long-term exiled community, the Jewish community, and the recently exiled or partially exiled." The recently-exiled or partially-exiled do not know what it means to be a "long-term exiled" Jew. Only the Jews know that kind of suffering.
>> I think you are looking for someone to demonize, on a theme that is a rut, a repetition.
I'm not looking to demonize anyone. I'm simply astounded that that little girl could take an innocuous, inclusive quote about exile and turn it into a political statement, and that you could then take that statement, ignore the context of the actual test it pertains to, and turn it into a full-blown lament about the suffering of the Jews.
>> If it changes hearts and minds, that is FAR superior to throwing rocks.
Not plowing up farmland and crops, not destroying homes and water reservoirs, not shooting peaceful protesters (whether Palestinians or those of other nationalities), not buildling illegal settlements in occupied territories, not jailing or assassinating the moderate leaders who could be the sought-after bargaining partners, not constantly demonizing and denigrating the people you are oppressing: All those things ALSO change hearts and minds.
Let the Israelis, too, make the "better argument".
>> The green yarn idea is uniquely artful.
>> A green thread harms noone literally.
It harms no one but the person placing the yarn, when he gets a high-speed tear-gas canister in the head for engaging in "suspicious activity" that may or may not constitute an existential threat to Israel. The proof? Green is the colour of Hamas, an Islamist terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel!
The idea is a joke. The oppressed must not rise up against their oppressors - they must meekly scatter green yarn and hope that the oppressor will find it charming enough to cease his oppression.
>> Actually, your description of my comments is innaccurate.
>> I suggested, unlike Phil, that the quote had universal significance. Phil’s comments were entirely that they were of Palestinian experience, and not universal.
To differ with Phil - and to speak to the girl's reaction regarding an innocuous quote - all you had to do was say "Phil, that quote clearly has a universal, inclusive theme, and it is disappointing that the girl unnecessarily politicized it and inferred from it only Israeli aggression and Palestinian suffering."
But you didn't. You turned the story itself into an excuse to play the well-worn "Jews know suffering like no other" record.
>> If the quote does not have universal significance, then it is in truth an imposition of a Palestinian narrative where it doesn’t belong.
>> If the quote refers to the experience of exile, then it applies to Jews loud and clear, of a strong attachment to the land (even if in exile for a very long time).
That's all well and good, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the purpose of the test, which was to "read excerpts of poetry and prose and compare them to other works they have studied in class.” (Notice that the purpose is not to read excerpts of poetry, determine whether or not the theme is universal and, if so, discuss the Holocaust.)
The Said quote was completely neutral in text and tone. All the girl had to do was compare it to other works studied in class. She - and you - have made a Jewish-suffering mountain out of a completely innocuous text.
And comparing exile to your neighbourhood is quite possibly the second-stupidest thing you've said. (The stupidest thing, without a doubt, is the bit about "green yarn". That one still blows my mind.)
>> If the question was meant to have universal signficance, as the poetic and very subjective language implies, then it applies to the Jewish historical experience, the Irish historical experience, the Armenian historical experience, the African-American historical experience, as well.
You are such a drama queen. The test, according to the article, "requires students to read excerpts of poetry and prose and compare them to other works they have studied in class."
An excerpt of prose was presented. It contained no reference to Palestine or Israel. Rather than compare it to other works she studied in class, the girl suffered trauma. And rather than present yourself as a human being instead of a victim, you took a neutral passage about exile and turned it into a sob-story about Jewish suffering. "Remember the Holocaust!"
Sheesh, what a drama queen...
>> One of the tragedies of the story ... is that the experience of exile is also the Jewish experience, the motivator for Zionism, and in the terms that Said described ...
The Said quote is so eloquent and so *INCLUSIVE* it is incomprehensible that you and that little girl - among others - managed to find it offensive.
But, then, it's always about the Jews, eh? "Remember the Holocaust!" No one can suffer without the Jews having suffered more. I guess presenting oneself as a human being and not a victim was last week's mantra (or applies only to non-Jews/Israelis).
Bravo for taking that little girl's pathetic "trauma" at a benign quote and making it even more pathetic.
Mr. Goldstone is a class act.
>> The statement is best so far in sarcasm…
Nah, I've seen better.
>> Let us respect the Arabs whatever theyre opinions …
Who said anything about unconditional respect? No one deserves unconditional respect - not the Palestinians (or "Arabs", as you like to call them), not the Israelis, not the "nation of Jews" (eee's term), not anyone.
Respect is earned and given to those who have earned it. You haven't earned it, so piss off. :-)
>> Israel needs to accept responsibility for what they’ve done to the Palestinians, they need to accept the Nakba and come to a just solution, but one that is just for both sides. Two wrongs never make a right.
Well said. I hope the Palestinians get to have real, substantial, definitive input into this just solution.
>> Stones to Estonia.
Does this include the Rolling Stones, or are they a different tribe altogether? :-)
>> ;-) And cans to Canada.
Or Canucks to Canuckistan. It may not be the "Promised Land", but it's a pretty nice one. :-)
>> The Golan was part of ancient and modern Israel for centuries ...
I didn't realize that modern Israel has been around for centuries.
>> These rotten Arab colonialists ...
Dude, you need to get your hands on some green yarn, pronto. Your maximalism is becoming very destabilizing. I wonder why Mr. Witty hasn't chimed in yet to remind you to be polite and non-confrontational...
>> The Left ignores Israeli/Jewish suffering
Plenty has been said about Israeli suffering and far too much has been said about Jewish suffering ("The Holocaust was the bestest genocide ever!"). By comparison, next to nothing - especially in the mainstream media - has been said about Palestinian suffering at the hands of Israel/Jews.
By the way, didn't you get the memo that words such as "killers", "terrorists" and "goons" are destabilizing?
>> The way to deal with Iran is to isolate it, by ending the occupation, reconciling between Israel and neighbors, and making the center of gravity of Lebanese, Turkish, Syria, Palestinian, Jordanian, even Iraqi economy and community Mediterranean, rather than central Asian.
Perhaps we could add to that: By allowing Iran to pursue the civilian nuclear program to which, as a signatory of the NPT, it is entitled; to cease with the inflammatory/defamatory propaganda of Iran as a "rogue nation" and an "existential threat"; to lift all sanctions; and to remove all threat of air strikes and other military actions.
Anything less would be confrontational and destabilizing and you're very clear that you dislike that type of thing. ;-)
>> Its an important issue, but only a “cold war” one relative to Iran.
Now, let's hear about how the only way to deal with Iran is to place flowers at its borders, to sing poetry and to avoid destabilization. Let's hear about how talk of sanctions is maximalist and counterproductive. Let's hear about how we need to avoid escalation.
Because the West sure as shit isn't doing anything other than beating war drums and giving Iran full right to fear that it will face the same sort of righteous devastation that Iraq and Afghanistan - two other nations that presented no threat to either the U.S. or to Israel - have suffered.
>> So are Palestinians not allowed to resist non violently to the theft of their land, the fencing off and ghettoizing of their people, and the systematic murder being perpetrated against their people?
No, apparently they are only allowed to scatter green yarn throughout the land, all the while reciting cheerful poetry.
I wonder if the fungus is merely distabilizing or full-blown anti-semitic / Israel-hating...
>> "Last week I was in Gaza. While I was there I met a group of 20 or so police officers who were undergoing a course in conflict management. They were eager to know whether foreigners felt safer since Hamas had taken over the Government? Indeed we did, we told them.
...
Less than a week later all of these men were dead, killed by an Israeli rocket ... in the same police station in the middle of Gaza City that had been used by the British, the Israelis and Fatah during their periods of rule there."
See what happens when you forget to put green yarn around your police station? I bet they hadn't even bothered to recite any poetry.
>> But, Hamas could have written then letter to Israel themselves. Anything less is PR only.
Where are the letters from Israel to Hamas? Where is the "better argument"? Where is the poetry and green yarn? Or is Israel only supposed to receive offers from peace - and not seek peace - from the people its f*cking over?
>> Israel is not looking for a temporary cease-fire agreement. If he is offering permanent confident peace, then maybe Israel will respond.
What about green yarn on the green line? Apparently, as utterly ridiculous as that sounds, it's supposed to work poetic wonders.
>> "You know, a lot of people say we just followed the law, German judges… That's what (German SS officer and physician Josef) Mengele said too. That was Mengele's defense and that was what everybody said in Nazi Germany. 'We just followed the law.' When you are in an apartheid country like South Africa, you don't follow the law," Dershowitz added.
"But," added Dershy [can I call him Dershy?], "when you're in 'the only democracy in the Middle East', you obey the law without question. Otherwise, you're just another maximalist, Israel-bludgeoning, anti-semitic, self-hating Jewish traitor."
What a hypocritical jackass. If Goldstone had turned a blind eye to Israel's crimes, he'd have been a freakin' saint among saints!
>> The New York Times didn’t grant Israel Jerusalem. Its a Jewish city and the vast majority of its residents are Jews. ... Well Jerusalem will remain the united and eternal capital of Israel, no matter what he says.
Hmmm...this doesn't sound at all the green yarn and poetry of peace Mr. Witty recommends both sides employ. I'm sure he'll chime in any moment now and chide NormanF for his destabilizing behaviour...
>> The same international standards that condemn Israel for exercising its right of self defense ...
Since Israel's "right of self-defense" includes expansionism, occupation and the on-going destruction of Palestinian land and livelihoods, the condemnation is merited.
>> ... that turns a blind eye to the Iranian nuclear threat ...
There is no Iranian nuclear threat. If the Iranians do end up with nukes, it will be out of defensive necessity, a response to the constant threats of attacks from Israel and the U.S. It has plenty of evidence in its own neighbourhood of what happens to weaker nations.
>> ... and that overlooks human rights abuses in all the Middle Eastern dictatorships.
The human rights abuses of those nations are not overlooked. It must really suck, though, that the abuses carried on by Israel within and without its borders are increasingly falling under similar scrutiny.
>> eee: If the driver fell asleep ...
Yes, "IF" he did. But there's no evidence to say he did.
>> marc b.: accidents happen. i don’t have any definitive information ... i also don’t have any faith that the result of an impartial investigation, if conducted, would be publicized if intent were the finding.
Fair enough.
>> Miss Dee Mena: When you’ve seen Palestinian kids shot at with live ammunition with your own eyes ... you tend to form a different opinion.
I agree. I haven't seen that, so I can only say that the facts are not conclusive. My personal opinion, based solely on the information in the articles, is that the soldiers intentionally drove off the road and hit the tractor.
- Did they mean to kill the girls or just hurt them? Dunno.
- Did the back up the jeep and strike the tractor again? I doubt it.
- Did the soldiers fall asleep at the wheel and accidentally drive 15m off the road and strike a bunch of Palestinians in a tractor? I highly doubt it.
But this is just my opinion.
>> you miss the point, eljay. eva was irresponsible because an aggressive, impartial investigation into possible wrongdoing is being conducted as I type.
I'm sensing a little sarcasm there... ;-)
Anyway, even I'm a little suspicious of the later report, in which the violence is much more graphic.
-------------------------------------------------
April 29: An Israeli military jeep collided with a tractor carrying a Palestinian family, killing two young girls and injuring their father and brother on Thursday, witnesses said.
. . .
Locals told the regional popular committee that the incident was an "act of willful killing by the occupation forces," reporting that the tractor was in fact 15 meters away from the the highway where the Israeli military vehicle was driving.
-------------------------------------------------
May 5: The children had climbed into the “basket” on the ground at the rear of the tractor, ready to be lifted up. Emad was preparing to start the motor when an Israeli military jeep swerved off the road, at speed, and rammed into the tractor from behind. ... With the body of one sister draped obscenely over its front bumper, the jeep reversed for five or six metres and then rammed once again into the tractor. What might have been a tragic accident is thus revealed for what it was – a cold-blooded murder.
-------------------------------------------------
Did the witnesses suddenly remember things they didn't remember before? Are they mis-remembering things? In my opinion, there isn't definitive evidence that it was done on purpose. True, it does seem odd that the Jeep travelled 15m off the highway to collide with the tractor but, well, I just don't know. Not enough to say for sure it was intentional. And that, of course, is just my opinion.
>> I’m fairly new to this site but ... I would have to say that eee is the most boring, stupid, vapid, irrational, racist and insatiable attention whore ever. ... I can suffer trolls if they have triple digit IQs, are witty or fun but he is none of this and just basically a waste of space.
There is a Witty on this site, but he's really not all that "witty". And, with all due respect, why would you want your first post to consist of an attack on eee rather than, say, information which might contradict his position? Just curious.
>> I would have written nothing if the stand of Eva was not that this was surely a murder. That is a ridiculous stand that is not supported by the evidence.
Just a couple of points (not intended as an attack against you):
- Eva posted the article, but did not make any comment prior to your first post.
- In your first post, you concluded that "The only probable explanation is that the Jeep did not ram the tractor, it probably side swiped it." (Neither in her article or in the one I linked to later is it clear that the incident was an accident. The only way you can conclude that with any certainty, given the facts in those articles, is to dismiss the claims of the Palestinian witnesses as lies and accept those of the Israeli witnesses as facts.)
- You then proceeded to direct an unprovoked non-sequitur at her: "By the way Eva, you never told me when the Poles plan to return all the property they took from the Jews after WWII."
Not exactly a style of argument that garners support. :-)
>> How, then, are you so unshakeably certain that it was an accident?
eee, just in case you plan to ask me how I'm so sure it was inentional, let me spare you the effort and state that I'm not certain that it was intentional. Not only do I disregard the more inflammatory article, but the closest I ever got to suggesting intent was this comment in an earlier post:
Witnesses say it was intentional, even if it was just a “collision” instead of a “ramming”. That one word does not alter the apparent intent.
Note that I refer to the testimony of the witnesses and to the apparent intent behind the incident.
No sweat. :-)
>> Witnesses in these cases are not reliable.
There were Palestinian witnesses and two Israeli witnesses. You, presumably, were not on the scene. How, then, are you so unshakeably certain that it was an accident?
>> If you have not noticed, I respect all posters until they disrespect me.
No, you have not respected all posters. I kept my side of the discussion polite - even jocund - but you threw the first punch with "why don’t you wake up and put your irrational hatred under control?"
(At least you spared me the "anti-semite" and "Israel-hater" epithets.)
>> Yes, the story so far:
The story so far:
- A tractor carrying a Palestinian family and pulling a cart with children behind it
- The tractor is driving 15m off the roadway.
- A passing armored Israeli Jeep somehow" ends up 15m off the roadway and collides with the tractor/cart, killing two children.
- Witnesses say the Jeep deliberately drove off the road.
- An Israeli military spokesman and a National Police representative say it was an accident.
It was "purely and simply" neither an accident nor murder. Much remains unknown about what happened. But somehow you've determined that the Palestinian witnesses are liars and the two Israelis are telling the truth.
>> You are just irrational haters and blind as well.
Stop bludgeoning me, you irrational me hater!
I wonder why Mr. Witty hasn't show up to encourage you to use more poetry and green (or blue) yarn and less maximalism. Oh, right, that only applies to those who are not pro-Israel.
Well, never mind, then. As you were!
>> An Israeli jeep accidentally veered off the road and hit them.
So, Palestinian witnesses are liars, but you - who weren't even there - now know the absolute truth of what happened. That's impressive.
>> Instead of spinning an accident into a murder, why don’t you wake up and put your irrational hatred under control?
Hmmm...maybe green is not your colour. How about some blue yarn? It doesn't quite fit in with RW's poetic vision (blue yarn on the green line), but I'm willing to give it a try.
>> Let us all strive for peace and understanding ...
Apparently that's what green yarn is all about! :-)
>> How can witnesses know if the driver lost control or it was intentional? Maybe the driver fell asleep? Witnesses cannot know these things.
Don't be coy: You clearly mean "how can Palestinian witnesses know". If the elements of the story were reversed, you'd have no problem believing "Israeli witnesses".
>> It is an armored Jeep Wrangler. How could the soldiers not have been hurt ramming head on into a tractor?
Stop focusing on the word ramming. A Jeep collided with a tractor, killing the exposed children. The soldiers were not hurt. Witnesses say it was intentional, even if it was just a "collision" instead of a "ramming". That one word does not alter the apparent intent.
>> Of course it was a Jeep ...
Wow, less than half an hour ago, it couldn't have been a Jeep.
>> And of course the Jeep could not have “rammed” the tractor because then the soldiers would also be severely injured.
Not necessarily true. It doesn't take much "ramming" or colliding to kill exposed children, and if you're the one doing the ramming / colliding you can take precautions to ensure that your own safety.
>> It is clear that the Jeep did not hit the tractor frontally and that it was an accident.
Actually, it is not at all clear in either of the articles just how the Jeep rammed / collided into the tractor.
C'mon, man, more green yarn and less hate. Make RW proud of you for using poetry instead of destabilization. ;-)
>> This story maybe could have made sense if the soldiers were driving an armored Humvee, but a Jeep? A Jeep would be completely crushed if it rams into a tractor and the soldiers in the jeep would be severely injured or dead.
This story was covered in a previous thread, and in an article linked to in that thread (link to maannews.net), an Israeli military spokesman confirmed that it was, in fact, a Jeep that struck the tractor.
Now, where did I put that ball of green yarn...
Too bad Hamas didn't take up composing haikus instead of defending Palestinians against the aggressions (theft, sabotage, destruction, assassination) of Israel. Had they done so, Israelis and Palestinians could have been knitting peace from the green yarn of mutual respect and adoration, and this tragedy could have been avoided.
Clarification:
This: "- the blanket condemnation as “maximalist” and “destabilizing” of pretty much every action not committed by pro-Israeli forces."
Should have read: "- the blanket condemnation as “maximalist” and “destabilizing” of pretty much every action committed by some party other than the pro-Israeli forces."
>> For those of you idiots that think I’m speaking of “the Palestinians” ...
My, my - how destabilizing! I guess this must be one of those "few things that can only be stated in a negative way". ;-)
>> If you want a mass movement, you have to speak in language that masses can pursue in good conscience. ... The humane need to accomplish something and feel that they are helping, and not that they are helping mass murderers.
>> I’m speaking of the factions, the militias, Hamas ...
Israel has out-mass-murdered Hamas. Israel continues to act with impunity to dispossess the Palestinians of their land and rights. Israel continues to flout international law.
So...where is Israel's "language that the masses can pursue in good conscience"? Seems to me it isn't supplying any, and yet the masses are pursuing it just fine, as is evidenced by:
- the droning mantra of "Israel is ours forever";
- the support for Israeli settlers who attack civilians;
- the acceptance of pretty much anything the IDF does as a virtue;
- the blanket condemnation as "maximalist" and "destabilizing" of pretty much every action not committed by pro-Israeli forces.
Let the Israelis put some fucking yarn on the green line instead of destroying water reservoirs and plowing up land. Let them take to singing songs and reciting poetry instead of dropping illegal munitions into civilian areas. Let them take the initiative and make the "better argument" to avoid all the maximalist destabilization. Let them do just a little bit of listening to "the other".
And let's see you criticize eee, NormanF, yonira and others on the pro-Israel side with the same arguments you use against those who would rather see a more balanced justice.
>> BDS is not a matter of the heart, it is a matter of trendiness.
Without green yarn, though, it's not really all that trendy. :-)
Pseudo-Witty [to burglar who has just enter his home through a smashed window]: "Good evening, kind sir. Seeing you in my home at this late hour, I cannot help but conclude that you have overlooked - inadvertently, of course - the green yarn I placed along my property line. No matter.
First, please let me congratulate you on your initiative and fine fashion sense. Now, I surmise from your presence in my home that you are interested in absconding with...no, no, that's too strong a word: I surmise that you are interested in partaking of some measure of my property.
While I do not wish to discourage you or to appear in any way destabilizing or critical of your endeavours, perhaps we could take a moment to discuss the ....OW, STOP HITTING ME!!"
>> A green yarn at the green line is poetically relevant ...
Sweet Jeezus in Hevven! Call off the peaceful protest marches, tell the Palestinian Gandhi he can stay at home (if he hasn't been jailed or assassinated already) and send the ships of food and essentials back to where they came from: We're going to make things better by placing green yarn at the green line! Un. F*cking. Believeable.
I seriously doubt you tell Israelis that the IDF should lob flowers at stone-throwing Palestinians in order to avoid maximalism and destabilization, or that instead of using teargas, bulldozers and banned munitions, Israeli forces should hand out smiley-face stickers to protesters.
Green yarn at the green line. Unbelieveable.
>> There is absolutely no proof that Israel helped SA create these bombs. There are only allegations.
The proof is at least as sound as the "proof" that Iran is an existential threat to Israel and the rest of the planet...but it's obvious that only one of the two scenarios involves Israel being the bad guy.
>> If this is true ... [w]hat happened to the bombs?
This, it seems, is what happened to the bombs:
(link to en.wikipedia.org )
All the bombs (six constructed and one under construction) were destroyed and South Africa acceded to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty when South African Ambassador to the United States Harry Schwarz signed the treaty in 1991. On 19 August 1994, after completing its inspection, the IAEA confirmed that one partially-completed and six fully-completed nuclear weapons had been dismantled.