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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
...The reality is that most government policy now deviates significantly from popular opinion. Makes no difference....
Interestingly, this observation imho holds true for most countries. All Governments of major import pursue steadfastily and without qualification so-called "pro-Israel" policies, despite the fact that a more or less distinct majority of their respective electorates disapprove such unconditional support.
It seems as if such a foreign policy majority of the electorates can be conveniently ignored - so far - without that the respective electorates would sanction their Governments or their responsible politicians/parties at next elections.
Wrt Germany eg, as also Günter Grass opined in his recent "poem", the German government continues to pay for and supply Israel with submarines, despite the fact that public opinion dispproves of supplying military hardware to conflict areas.......
The same applies to aid and other preference treatments Israel is continously granted without putting any effective poltical or economic pressure on any GoI to end settlement, occupation and discrimination and walk the walk towards a comprehensive I-P peace agreement.
Strange, is it not?
WAR on LAW
What to say?
Blatant, naked arbitrariness
SIC TRANSIT GLORIA IURISPRUDENTIAE IUSTICIAEque........
The legal System of the only democracy has finally publicly prostituted itself to the settlers' will -
for everybody to see.
SHAME - SHAME - SHAME
and not forget the whole long list of female activists of the
Jewish Voice for Peace
Gaza - for reasons of economy (too costly!)
Sinai - for reasons of unconditional pressure by the USA!
Those were the days.......
just to add:
The icing of this indecency and obscenity is, that this picture is even publicised by MK Michael Ben-Ari himself!!
Obviously, such representatives of agressive Israeli occupation-colonialism have all lost any senses. They apparently do not even have an inkling about the possibility how much (for their "cause", mind you) damaging PR this photo is. Boundless stupidity.
It may not quite reach the impact of the famous MyLai photo, that rang the bell for the final round of the US-Vietnam war, however sth of a similar impact the photomay well have......
Hopefully!
One should disseminate it widely. it does not need much explanatory sub-text. It indeed speaks for itself.
Re Fredblogs "Legal eviction"...
Honestly, i was about to comment this Fredblogs' comment from the bottom of my heart…….. However, those may not have passed the MW editors' scrutiny because they may not have lived up to the established comment-policy here.
Mr. Fredblogs: What "legalities " or "illegalities" concretely means in the Israeli context everybody can indeed wonder about and "admire" from the blatant manipulations and the twisting practice of the juridical professionals and the Israeli Court system rulings.
The lawyers, attorneys and judges (barring any rare and praiseworthy exceptions) have degenerated over the decades and especially during the last 3 years onslaught by the Jewish Nationalist Netanyahu Government to such an extent that makes any normal human being shudder.
The "only democracy in the ME" even does not shy away even from a total disregard and ignoring of even (repeated) Supreme Court rulings. The historic and more so current MIGRON- and "outpost-legalities" and manoeuvres of Talmudic legal (dis-)ingenuity of splitting hairs are ample proof of what Israeli legal standards have come to: ROCK BOTTOM. Not to speak about international law which does not count anyway, as a matter of course; that is only for the goyims.
And if none of the many "legal" traditions at hand serves the purpose of continued ethnic cleansing, evictions of Palestinian families, house demolitions, etc……,whether in East Jerusalem, Hebron, the Negev or anywhere else in the WB, that is neither the existing Israeli law codex, nor the Ottoman, nor the one of British Mandate, nor the Jordanian;
And if the Courts or Supreme Court do not play by the "rules" they are supposed to and live up to the expectations of the Jewish Eretz Israel colonizers,
then the Knesset "legislators" and/or specially established NTY-Ministerial settler committees come up with new bills and laws to legalize the illegal - of course also retroactively- and / or find some other "temporary!" solutions , deferring the implementation of the law for yet another couple of years or until the Messiah will come: ad calendas Graecas.
In short the entire Israeli "legality"& "legitimacy-industry is a THOROUGH SHAM!
That much, Mr. Fredblogs, wrt to "legal" eviction.
This sofa picture says it all about them sitting there rejoycing:
DISGUSTING and OBSCENE!
Re Natasha Mozgovaya in Haaretz 23Apr12 link to haaretz.com
….. I am not convinced (Ambassador Michael) Oren was the first one to attempt to influence the 60 Minutes report before it was broadcasted - my experience tells me otherwise – for people do tend to try to influence unflattering reports before they are published or broadcasted quite often…
Indeed.
My experience also tells me otherwise!
Actually such direct intervention is obvious and usual practice of Israeli diplomats in their respective countries of assignment!
They phone up directly the high-up echelons of broadcasting stations and d e m a n d to be immediately given air-time even in life-broadcasting discussions to tell their tales of propaganda-"truths".
So, e.g. Deputy Amb. Emmanuel Nahshon in Berlin who bulldozed himself into an ongoing panel discussion with selected panel experts and radio listener participation. Obviously Mr. Nahshon - ill-famed here in Germany for his hawkish and uncivilized language (as again lately proven by his unacceptable commentary re the Grass-Iran-Israel "poem") - was of the opinion that the very Israel-apologetic representative on the expert panel had been on the "loosing end by poor hasbara-argumentation" and therefore needed some "strengthening support" from his side.
Needless to say, that as a matter of course such gross undiplomatic demand of His Excellency has been immediately granted… thereby hopping the queue of other listeners who had been waiting on the telephone line for their chance to contribute their comments to the subject of discussion.
1) Re Natasha Mozgovaya in Haaretz 23Apr12 link to haaretz.com
…."The relationship between Israel and the Christian world is our strategic interest, ….." a senior Israeli diplomat told Haaretz.
2) Re From 6o Minutes:
For Israel, there could be serious economic consequences. According to Israeli government figures, tourism is a multi billion dollar business there. Most tourists are Christian. ….. That's one reason why Israelis are very sensitive about their image in the United States.
Holy Land Tourism is indeed a multi billion dollar business - and it is the Israeli Hotels, Tour operators, Travel agencies, car rental and bus companies, Restaurants, banks, etc…which cream off some estimated 95+% of this Samsonite Christian Pilgrimage Industry. That makes a truly strategic interest.
And this also explains not only the "strategic" interest in the Christian tourist world, not Christians or the Christian world, as well as the very sensitive reaction of Israeli Government officials and business when it comes to Israel's image abroad.
The 60minutes documentary has made it hopefully clear, that it is the Palestinians, regardless whether Christian or Muslim, who are equally victimised by Israel's occupation. The Christian exodus is over-obvious, because Christians have been / are a relatively small minority within the Palestinian and Israeli societies where the exodus of thousands becomes easily discernible. In Palestine it surely has long reached existential dimensions.
The Kairos document of all Christian denominations is a milestone document which should wake the entire Christianity up to act in solidarity with Palestinians, Muslim and Christian alike.
As long as Western ("Christian") Governments adamantly refuse since decades to exert any effective political pressure on the Government of Israel to end occupation and discrimination of Palestinians, Christians SHOULD STOP any HOLIDAY AND PILGRIMAGE TRAVELs TO ISRAEL and POSTPONE THEIR HOLY LAND PILGRIMAGES UNTIL SUCH TIME that a SATISFACTORY FINAL PEACE AGREEMENT with the Palestinians will have been concluded.
Re: Nuclear Weapons - free Middle East
I wonder WHEN and IF the P5+1 negotiations with Iran will also deal with the mighty-little Elephant in the Room which so far has never been officially talked about: Israel.
How myopic can the assembled "negotiators" be and successfully continue to overlook this Elephant and do as if it was not there??????
@hophmi
“The respondents who see Grass’ statements as correct or at least arguable: 84%.”
Number of scientific online polls: 0%
But 100 % sure is, that all those 84% are 100% Anti-Semites!!
@ pjotr
......In 2003 the big news was Cast Lead.....
In 2003, pjotr, that was another one....; Cast Lead was only dec2008/Jan2009.
But i do sympathize: Given the frequencies of Israel's wars - one just looses oversight, no?
@CigarGod
i did try (and again) : there had been neither any special information for travelers nor any problem to book thru.
However, CTuttle has not yet been able / found the time to provide the requested link......... it seems.
@CTuttle
re Lufthansa cancellation of tickets of all tickets of all persons glying from French Airports to Tel Aviv.
Can you also furnish an official LH website substantiating your information, please?
No information can be found (so far) on the lufthansa. com official website of the airline.
However, if you google for "Lufthansa Frankfurt", you can find prominently in the first result-page, an information by a dubious source www.israelnetz.com which is administered by a more dubious "Christlicher Medienverbund KEP e.V." (= Christian Media Connection KEP) with the status of a registered association. See: link to israelnetz.com
This website headlines "No Lufthansa-Tickets for pro-palestinian Activists" and continues
Lufthansa has cancelled flights to Tel Aviv of dozens of pro-palestinian activists. They intended to take part on Sunday in the protest campaign Welcome to Palestine......
I wonder about the reliability / authenticity of the above info......
Tome it smacks of a targeted desinformation effort......?
Austin Branion's article
convincingly presents the "juxtaposition problem and the complexities" which make it so impossible for any logic thinking reader / listener to reconcile irrelevant theoretical claims of history, what "Zionism" may have meant for a few "pioneers" hundred years ago with the down to earth realities and the very nature of the State of Israel since 1948.
Beinart should be squeaking aloud having been caught so darn well right by the b...s. I wonder for how long he might cling to his imho untenable positions?
Moreover, it is my impression that by far toooo much attention is given to him as a person. In the first place i smell personal PR for himself and opportunism. Assuming an Obama victory in November, he has rather conspicuously taken side and defended the POTUS more than the flow of his arguments necessitated.
He may be eying for a call from the WH during Obama's second term.......?
Re Anne-Marie Slaughter statement at J-Street conference
"….but we cannot say as we have been saying for over a year, that we stand for democracy and human rights and basic justice for the people of the Middle East….
unless we’re doing everything we can to bring democracy and human rights and justice to the Palestinians....
This is the very K E Y for any US and European ME-policy of the future. Without JUSTICE for the Palestinian People no other door will open up the entire ME-region as effectively.
So far everything has been done to let Israeli occupation and settlement continue with impunity - 41 (?) US-Israel-protection VETOES are ample proof for the hollowness and totally cynic double standard policies of the west wrt to international and human rights.
Doing everything we can…. Who is "WE"?
As long as our governments and their representatives remain in their ethically and morally spineless position, and continue with their hollow "democracy and HR"-garbage,
We, the 99%, can do one thing above all:
MAKE a GENERAL BOYCOTT of Israel as strong as possible.
Politicians hardly ever lead - all they do is follow like vanes in the wind……
Re seafoid:
" I had lunch with my Israeli colleague today. ......" (rest-quote below)
Voluntarily???
You'd better be more selective either with your lunch-companions and/or the subjects you cover over lunch: eg. what about the weather or soccer.....
Otherwise, you may end up with stomach ulcers....
quote ctd.
"....Outraged that “Ashton could n0t understand the difference between aggression and self defence.” Israel doesn’t kill Gazans deliberately. they just die by the way...."
re piotr:
"Ben-Ami: “I don’t, however, agree with Peter that pressure on settlers and settlements through targeted boycotts and other measures will lead them to change course.”
This is correct. I guess we have to copy sanctions imposed on Iran and apply to Israel. That would have a chance to “lead them to change course”.....
e g g s a cl y !!!
(Sorry, i can not credit the author of this orthographic onomatopoetics; but it was a recent MW commentator :-))
Addendum: While the Iran Sanctions have been decided and are carried out by State governments using their institutional strategic machineries , a full Israel BDS will have to be done by the global civil society.
One economic sector which does qualify par excellence for Israel Boycott is : T O U R I S M
If only the non-evangelical Christians of the World (the Evangelicals have to be discounted anyway, both as Christians "beyond repair"and as potential Israel boycotters) would postpone their Samsonite Pilgrimages to the Holy Land of Israel u n t i l Israel will have concluded and started to genuinely implement a full peace treaty with the Palestinians..... such a travel boycott would make a real difference.
Instead, one can fly-in through Amman and use Palestinian Tour Operators, Hotels, Restaurants, Buses, Tour Guides, etc....to see biblical sites of importance, most of which - barring Nazareth and Lake Galilee - are anyway located in the Palestinian West Bank territories.
Such alternative woul d be cheaper, more genuine and i suspect also spiritually more rewarding.
It would be just the right thing to do.
Tzipi Livni not only implemented this Gaza War policy, but agressively defended the Gaza War as the right thing to be done.
Without the slightest inkling of remorse.
Annie's "Slaughter Queen" may sound a harsh qualification - but given these facts such qualification must be considered as fully justified.
Do you want to argue in all earnest that the Jewish + Israeli view is suppressed and can not find its way into the public, nor into the back&front -room chambers of the political + economic power elite, nowhere??
I wonder, in which world you must live.
Re giladg:
.."She took a one sided position and should have been aware of the dangers." …
That is an absolutely misplaced and disgusting comment to make. What a despicable, mean and low character you are! Shame on you, giladg! Shame on you a thousand times over. You seem to be classical example for the moral decay that has taken deep roots in brains like yours and yours alike.
Can you tell me / us, please, which two-sided position anyone with a minimum of a moral and ethical standard can or should take in light of Israel's or IDF's history of occupation, gross human rights violations of the worst kind, its impudence of contempt for international law……? - and that for decades now.
Do you know what Elie Wiesel said, referring to a similar situation of decision making and defining one's stand?
"We must always take sides.
Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim.
Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented."
Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel encouraging uncompromising action.
Rachel Corrie who must be regarded a shining example for the youth, her generation and all of us. She cared and did not look away or kept silent. She took the side of the oppressed, not the oppressor and tormentor.
Nine years (SIC!) have already passed now since the killing / murder of Rachel Corrie. The then Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, promised US president George W Bush a "thorough, credible and transparent" investigation.
And what has come out of this credible and transparent investigation? First, the internal Israeli military investigation, details of which were never published nor released to the US government nor the Corrie family, concluded that the two soldiers who operated the bulldozer had not seen Rachel and that no charges would be brought. The case was closed.
In March 2010 the Corrie family launched a civil case against the state of Israel in a Haifa Court. Israeli military authorities withheld vital video evidence, and after more than 16 months of hearings (=July 2011), Rachel's parents commented that they were in much the same place as they had been in the beginning, that is to say up against a wall of Israeli officials determined to protect the state at all costs.
There is still no verdict which is said to be due to be delivered only in April 2013, i.e. more than 10 years after Rachel's death.
This much for the "thorough, credible and transparent" investigation.
Tzedek, Tzedek Tirdof - Justice, Justice you shall pursue ( Deut 16,20)
There is indeed little justice that anybody could reasonably expect from the Israeli judicial system in a court case like that of Rachel Corrie's. All the more that 10 years have passed during which an erstwhile half-way respectable judiciary has deteriorated visibly into a little more than a whore servicing an increasingly fundamentally undemocratic state and settler clientle.
The latest Migron-Outpost deal even tries to degrade Israel's Supreme Court to renounce its own ruling!
see also: link to guardian.co.uk
Tzedek, Tzedek Tirdof -
Justice, Justice you shall pursue - Deut 16,20
Ceterum censeo, occupationem palaestinensem esse finiendam - SUBITO!
Egypt's Agriculture price policy and PL 480Wheat exports.
Wheat export promotion thru the PL 480 may have been initially (60ies, 70ies) just a major instrument of income generation for American farmers. However, coupled with a state monopoly in case of cotton and a regulated agricultural price policy and obligatory acreage quota system (farmers had been forced to devote a set acreage for the export crop cotton), Egypt's fast growing population demanded ever more increasing wheat imports for the daily heavily subsidized bread.
The Egyptian price policies favoured "export-crops" over staple food production and domestic market oriented requirements, and the wheat deficit grew and grew and grew until the finance ministry could not afford anymore the heavy subsidies. Any desperate attempt
to reduce the bread price subsidies, lead invariably to massive street opposition seriously endangering the position of the long-term political strong-men and their established power system.
Egypt's chief power holders (Nasser, Sadat, Mubarak) realized that without PL480 wheat from the USA, their power position would be gone with the wind.
From that point onward, it became obvious that PL480 not only could be used to serve the interests of American farmers, huge US export companies and woo them for domestic political ends at home, but that the so created dependency of the Egyptian power elite could well "disciplinize" Egypts foreign policy, especially vis-a-vis Israel. PM Sadat was not only driven by the peace-angel to conclude the Egyptian-Israel peace treaty, but found himself rather with little option than to follow US-American "guidance" and serving Israel's interests.
That dependency has not decreased ever since, in the contrary as the Mubarak-era and his economic "liberalization" policies in the non-agricultural secors have shown, which served the elite and their cronies to enrich themselves shamelessly and enlarge their "rental" diversification under the Mubarak-regime and Egypt's military.
The aborted Egyptian revolution has most probably not yet seen its apex and end. Unfortunately, the current economic problems of Egypt must be considered as truly formidable in the years to come and are likely to make Egypt a virtual powder keg, with civil strife a la Syria looming large ........
One can only hope that such forcast would be thoroughly wrong.
After all, hope dies last, even against all odds of probability.
Peace loving Israel - renewed targeted and untargeted assassinations
The latest Gaza death toll - where does it stand now?
15? or more.....?
You could see it coming. After Yahoo's class A - failure to impress Obama - despite all its months-long efforts to work the international media and the political agenda away from OCCUPATION + SETTLEMENTS and the PEACE gimmick Process, Israel most moral army of the world turns to more managable tasks to make up for its frustration and renew the escalation spiral.
It won't go away - it won't go away - this darn issue of the PALESTINIANS and this darn state they wantto have. Whereas all we want is : continue colonizing the entire WestBAnk.
Unfortunately, i am afraid to say, we hardly will have seen the end of this round of escalation of killing and targeted assassinations. And this time, Hamas leadership won't be able, nor presumably willing to hold aimless Qassam missiles back.
Mrs. Ashton can pull from her desk her standard comment: We are very concerned....
The debate, better wild speculations whether or not Obama might personally hate the Israeli PM, is imho pretty useless.
Obama has other problems at his hands than to invest political and psychic energies into such a person. What O.. surely must have concluded that Yahoo is not a person to trust. And who could argue this, given that Yahoo is a notorious lier, deceiptful, a cheap propagandist and "salesman" of FEAR, whether recalling the traumatic Holocaust memories of trying to inculcate the Fear of new Holocaust around the corner, at the hands of the Iranian fictional nuclear bomb.
The POTUS has learnt his lesson, hopefully, that a l l he tried in terms of security assurances etc.... ( and he has "given" the Lobby and Israel indeed way toooooo much!!) has never been met with any reasonable response from Israel's side, not to speak of the minutest inkling of appreciation or gratitude.
In the contrary, the President of the United States has been humiliated not only by Yahoo, the AIPAC Lobby and other Israel Firsters in the USA and elswhere, but by the American Congress(wo)men and Senators. The latter even going so far as to publicly humiliating themselves as they so convincingly did by their 30 or so standing ovations in May 2011, cheering Netan-Yahoo like mad(wo)men as if he was one of theirs, respectively them his. What respect can the world give to such representatives of American democracy throwing voluntary the rest of any personal and institutional dignity into the litter box.
It has been painful to see, very painful, for any decent anybody.
Before such a background of warmongerers at home (Congress, Senate, and the mainstream mass media) and Israel Obama has stood his ground with quite some determination (at last).
Yahoo failed in his attempt to push the USA into yet another war. Rather than for madness, it is time for REASON and continued efforts of diplomacy, if Israel shall have a future. Netanyahoo's war mongering and advocacy for an Iran attack is a DEAD END STREET.
That is what Israeli voters should be guided by, when they will elect a new Knesset soon.
And that is what the American electorate must consider likewise.
The tipping point ? - or not.
The essence of Friedman's article is that he wants to take the heat off Netanyahu, AIPAC and the Israel Firsters - warmongerers by shifting - spinning the focus away from the main drivers, and declare the danger as a collective one, endangering the region and world at large.
While this is also correct, the rest of the world, however, wants to engage in a rational political dialogue with Iran and diplomacy, while putting simultaneously quite some economic pressure on the Iranian Regime - Israel and Israel Firsters have obviously other priorities.
Friedman has rightly sensed that the bellicose speeches at the AIPAC Conference and the loudest cheers from the audience for the most inciting speakers could fall back in a rather "undesirable" way for the warmongerers.
I read his article that he is rather interested to limit the likely negative repercussions on the public opinion in the USA and elsewhere. As an "insurance" so to speak......, in case ....
Netanyahu = BEWARE of the new 21cy MOSES and Prophet of Doom not Freedom!!
" As prime Minister of Israel, I will never allow my people to live in the shadow of annihilation,"
NTY Speech AIPAC Conference 05Mar12.
I rather prefer the historicalized original - he asked for Freedom from Slavery and succeeded, so the story goes: "Let my people go.!"
The 21cy Moses, aka Netanyahu, demands a green light for war on Iran, and this might well lead exactly there: not in the shadow of, but straight into - if not annihilation - a human catastrophy for Jews and Arabs alike, in the entire region of the ME and beyond.
The comparison of Ausschwitz with a yet not nuclear-armed Iran is detesting, and little else than sowing and augmenting fear on which he thrives politically and nourishes his blown up ego. The danger is: he - and with him Israel - may reap what he is sowing.
Was there no other lesson to be learnt from the Holocaust?
What about trying bona-fide cooperation with neighbours, end of occupation and gross HR violations? To name just a few alternatives which have not been tried yet.
We would definitely love to welcome Israel back in the community of civilized nations. With open arms.
CENSURE Inquiry from the Editors:
i posted a comment on Sen. Mitch McConnel's Speech at AIPAC.
This is to inquire why you have censored it?
I hardly can see any reason as to why my comment was to have violated anything wrt MW comment policy principles.
Looking forward to your reply.
Mitch McConnel
To hear and see this man talking at the AIPAC Conference gave me the shivers!!
Unfortunately the C-Span video only showed the speaker, so I could not see the enthusiasm and applause of the warmongering audience. However, just listening to the applause was more than enough: nauseating
To see McConell's tight-lipped smiles, hardly suppressed, and happiness about the thunderous enrapture of his AIPAC audience was close to be unbearable. These are the ISRAEL FIRSTERS, regardless of any other consideration.
My goodness, what a country have the USA have become where such public war mongering and incitement is not met with 100 % disapproval but CHEERS.
McConnel's speech advocating "overwhelming force" was akin to another version of earlier times, touching very unpleasant cords:
"Wollt ihr den totalen Krieg?"......
Given the detesting alternatives, one must (willy-nilly) hope for a second Obama term - hopefully with a POTUS with big balls.
Agreed: There won't be any war . The Israeli Iran war mongering is all bluff, bluff only, at least for the time being and as long as the POTUS permits that dangerous "game" to continue. -
IMHO, it would indeed be highest time and very desirable that he will leave no doubt who is the cook and who the waiter. Come 5th March we will see......perhaps.
Neither the American people have any interest in yet another war - and one should assume nor the Israelis.
What Netanyahu is primarily interested in is his OWN RE-ELECTION, and the Iran issue is a perfect means to divert from domestic political troubles he has at his hands at home: i.a. with settlers (e.g. Migron outpost removal) and also the religious crowd wrt their forthcoming end of their no-army-service privileges; economic troubles and a broad social unrest among a squeezed Israeli electorate, which may spoil his re-election.
Of course, he has a keen interest to unseat Obama and spoil his re-election bid. After all NTY is not keen to deal with Obama during a second term of office, and rightly fears that during 2013-2016 quite a few open accounts will be settled. That is why he interferes so unabashedly in the US-presidential election campaign to see Obama's bid fail.
Similar scenario with Ehud Barak, the other chief war - mongerer. The Gush Shalom ad of 24.Febr. puts it in a nutshell:
At the helm of the Israeli army
Stands a minister
With no political base,
Few future prospects
And little to lose.
Free to play with fire
And plan
Dangerous adventures
Beware of
Ehud Barak
It is all bluff. There won't be any war.
Re: teta mother me - comment February 29, 2012 at 12:13 pm
teta mm,
I want to specifically thank for the referenced article by Avigail Abarnabel, Psyhologist/-therapist writing on
Israel’s Trauma Psychology and the Attack on Gaza
link to avigailabarbanel.me.uk
A really great article of the "MUST-READ"-calibre.
Question for Shingo:
….Speaking of rhetoric, Netentyahu recently proclaimed "Death to all Arabs”….
Did he, really? Is this an authentic quotation?
If yes, can you give a reference for this, please.
I'd appreciate, thanks.
“centerpiece” is to shift the red line. no doubt all the senate members will jump on board to please their…."
say it aloud: .......... P A Y M A S T E R S
MEANWHILE, JEWISH EXTREMISTS are WORKING on their VERSION of the ONE-STATE-SOLUTION:
MK Uri Ariel presents a political program at the Jerusalem Conference: `
Annex all of Judea and Samaria`:
According to this program, the entire territory will be annexed and all Judea and Samaria Arabs will have the status of permanent residents in Israel. This will give them the very same status enjoyed by 284,000 residents of East Jerusalem, of whom many opinion polls indicated that if given a choice between the State of Israel or a Palestinian state they would choose for Israel.
This status will give them: a blue identity card, social security, health services and all other services given to every citizen in Israel, and the vote in municipal elections for the municipal authority within whose borders they live – but no right to vote in Knesset elections. : [Emphasis by translator from Hebrew = Adam Keller.]
For further details see:
link to kibush.co.il
MEANWHILE, JEWISH EXTREMISTS are WORKING on their VERSION of the ONE-STATE-SOLUTION:
MK Uri Ariel presents a political program at the Jerusalem Conference: `
Annex all of Judea and Samaria`:
According to this program, the entire territory will be annexed and all Judea and Samaria Arabs will have the status of permanent residents in Israel. This will give them the very same status enjoyed by 284,000 residents of East Jerusalem, of whom many opinion polls indicated that if given a choice between the State of Israel or a Palestinian state they would choose for Israel.
This status will give them: a blue identity card, social security, health services and all other services given to every citizen in Israel, and the vote in municipal elections for the municipal authority within whose borders they live – but no right to vote in Knesset elections. [Emphasis by translator from Hebrew = Adam Keller.]
For further details see:
link to kibush.co.il
Continued Education + Advanced Reality Studies
Hi, Phil,
it seems that your sojourn in the WB reaps " good" results and benefits wrt balancing theory and desk with occupation realities on the human and every day level, including the steroid department. :-)
Regards.
CHAPEAU for the Veterans for Peace
This memorandum is a grand and timely initiative. One can only hope that the POTUS has any balls left to do just what the VfP have suggested and make :
an unmistakably clear and unambiguous PUBLIC warning at the address of the GoI and its warmongerers. And let them know that those days are gone when the tail wagged the dog.
Such a statement would put an end to all that media gimmick and bull.... of the last many months!
This Memo of the Vets should substantially be taken up for a world-wide signature campaign as a message for the POTUS to live up to his responsibility to bring at least some sanity back into the discourse.
AVAAZ.org could easily mobilize imho some few 100K or even more - if George Soros (respectively his money?) would let them..... and if they dared to exhibit some courage rather than campaigning only well-trodden paths or purely humanistic and little controversial causes!
However, in light of their past record, AVAAZ are nothing else than formidable Israel-cowards!
Shamefully so.
What about answering for this?
Don't MISS: Thrown to the Dogs!!
An article in Haaretz of 20Jan2012 tells a horrendous story entitled "How Israeli negligence led to the death of a Palestinian car thief ":
Link: link to haaretz.com
This is an example how Israel delegitimizes itself and has made itself an OUTCAST of basic Civility and of the civilized international Community.
The story comprises nearly all the ingredients of what Occupation is and leads up to inhumane behaviour without compassion beyond imaginable limits!
As you read on in utter disbelief you will be devastated by the degree of the lack of basic humanity prevailing not only in Israel's Police, Army and large sections of its Society but even among medical Doctors and Nurses.
Now the Supreme Court.
The systematic and settler-driven take-over of also the entire legal system in the "only Jewish theocracy" makes me shiver!!
After conquering the army, other diverse police-forces, the entire state "civil" administration and public life, the outright attack on any left-overs (if any) of a decent 21st century education, I wonder whether there is anything that can prevent the State of Israel sliding further down into the abyss of fascism and apartheid???
Historical precedents are looming large…..
Are there any optimists left?
Thank you, patm, for the dr. Gutmann's address! Good idea.
The following email i have written:
Dear Dr. A. Gutmann, President of Pennsylvania University,
i refer to Mr. Stephen J. McCarthy reply to the organizers of the BDS Conference who had expressed in their letter directly addressed to you their expectation, that you would clearly and publicly dissociate yourself and the University from Prof. Ruben Gur's malicious diatribe against the BDS Conference organizers and invited guests, which can only be considered a wreckless, ugly AS-smear and fear mongering invective.
Unfortunately you missed your chance and let yourself be deputized by Mr.McCarthy whose reply letter of weasel words is nothing else but wanting. Grossly wanting, evasive and without backbone in the matter of substance here.
It is indeed deeply disturbing that you have imho grossly failed to live up to your duty as the key-representative of Penn-University and take an unambiguous stance and thereby protect the reputation of the University and all its staff who do not concur with the
views uttered by Prof. Ruben Gur.
I wonder whether you will be able to muster the courage to make up for the damage caused by your silence.
Yours Sincerely,
Agreed. Both new rules are meaningful.
As a second thought, i like to suggest that - as a feed-back for commentors and for transparency reasons - such banned comments / commenters are also indicated, e.g. by a standard text "banned b/o breach of comment policy".
W h a t ? ? ?
Netanyahu and " Good Faith negotiations"?????
A contradiction in se.
Hardly conceivable even after re-incarnation.
Which body would survive such a soul??????
US "democracy" in the doldrums :
PRESIDENCY up for S A L E !!
But don' t tell - it is a secret.
Re: ...Those who proactively work to remove Israel from the family of nations.....
Israel has never been part of the "international family of nations", because it undertook all efforts at any suitable opportunity to stand aside, ignore all UN resolutions and violating international laws......
and this consequently from the beginning until today.
Whenever Israel will eventually (?) honour such universal principles of the community of nations, end occupation and all HR violations, Israel and its citizen will surely be welcomed.
However, as of to date, it is a place of horror, shaming all fundamental values of genuine Judaism. Too bad - too sad.
Certainly an impressive video.
Thanks to Zochrot and respect for its important work to record time witnesses' memories of what really happened in and around 1948. Such critical historical work ought to be encouraged and financially supported - after all the time witnesss must be in the range of 80+ years of age.
The Nakba is not the story of another people that took place somewhere else — it is a story that we, as Israeli Jews, are responsible for. Learning, without taking responsibility, is to me not enough."
Norma Musieh, Curator of the Zochrot, 2009
I second Annie's request for a transcript.
, however at the same time observe that the English video subtitle text ought to be improved to make it more intelligible, please
How Philip Weiss comes to his conclusion the Strenger article were an "excellent piece" must remain his personal secret. Perhaps PW had a bad day after a very hard holiday season???
For sure it has been bad judgement. His love for "liberals" may have carried him away, and his logic has failed him this time - obviously.
Strenger writes garbage, verbose and irrelevant garbage, shit-liberal academic Zionist garbage; and this too often, and already for too long. That is why I do not read his verbal diarrhea anymore. It is a waste of time.
I thank for and agree with clear and stringent comments of
a) Pabelmont, especially his
.." 2SS is “dead” only so long as the decision rests solely with Israel. Anyone who invokes the international community, whether governmental or civil, is looking beyond that." and
b) Dan Crowther , especially his
. "… i dont think “trashing liberal zionists” is the right course either, I think ignoring them and their ideas altogether is the path people of conscience should take. ."
"Keep up with BDS, etc. It's all we small folks can do."
Agreed. Finkelsein criticized BDS to be vague on its goals, by not advocating either 1SS or 2SS. That in turn i find wise.
However, the BDS should have some few selected targets that can make a dent and will be economically felt, especially the TOURISM sector .
No holiday- or "pilgrimage" travels to Israel until a satisfactory final agreement with the Palestinians will have been concluded.
That is something we small folks can certainly do.
The video is made and distributed by ARIJ= The Applied Research Institute Jerusalem.
This Institute is located in Bethlehem in immediate vicinity of the Separation Wall, and its staff under the leadership of its Director Mr. Jad Isaac prepares and disseminates valuable reports on a wide variety of subjects related to the Israli Occupation (i.a. wrt economics, natural and water resources).
Especially valuable are MAPS prepared by ARIJ. Its website www.arij.org should be a main source of information on many aspects of the Palestinian struggle for justice, independence and a democratic future.
Re: Hostage : December 21, 2011 at 2:26 am
Subject: The EU never doing anything other than being concerned or being very concerned and other bla-blas….
It is all over and ever again the same shame story:
While Mdm. Ashton has earned the title of the EU-Chief " deep regretter" and "ever very concerner", the European Commission and the EU-member states do nothing on the action front. It is all empty words. But those in plenty.
However, only few days ago the European Investment Bank which is the EU’s financing institution has signed a EUR 120 million credit for the construction of a seawater desalination plant in Ashdod with Bank Hapoalim, which in turn will on-lend the funds to Ashdod Desalination Ltd, a fully owned subsidiary of Mekorot = Israel's National Water Company.
Crocodile tears over the murder of Mustafa Tamimi at Babi Saleh (see: link to eeas.europa.eu
and statements like this recent one coming from UK, France, Portugal and even (sic) Germany , made in the hundreds or more in the past, could not and have not impressed any GoI so far.
Israelis and their government need to feel concrete consequences (above all: economic sanctions) for their decades-long blatantly ignoring international law, committing HR-violations and their domestic policies of discrimination and racism.
On the personal level -we have choice as consumers and can Boycott Israeli products and services; as a priority, all peace-loving Christians should DELAY their Israel travel and "pilgrimage" plans until a satisfactory final agreement with the Palestinians will have been concluded. Such a Travel Boycott will hurt and effectively promote political awareness…….it may take only 2-3 years of a consequent Christian "Holy Land" Israel Travel Boycott, and first results will likely to be seen.
Likewise, on a political level, a temporary suspension of the EU-Israeli Association Agreement would go a loooong way. The agreement states in its Article 2 :
Relations between the Parties, as well as all the provisions of the Agreement itself, shall be based on respect for human rights and democratic principles, which guides their internal and international policy and constitutes an essential element of this Agreement.
It is obvious that since long Israel has grossly failed to live up to its obligations under the Association Agreement, giving the European Community the right to take appropriate measures according to its Article 79.
So far, the Europe's politicians have been divided on the issue of their Israel Policy, paying only endless lip service without any serious follow-through in terms of action and applying double standards. One wonders whether they can be carried to take any palpable action.
Question to international lawyers :
Is there any legal possibility to file a law suit against the European Commission on the grounds of their INACTIVITY ???
re Chaos4700 - November 26, 2011 at 1:41 pm
Subject : Dual Citizenship data, et al.
I know, reliable aliya figures and ex-migration data, aswell as number of dual citizenship holders among Jewish Israelis are top secrets.
Can anybody provide some decent data and / or data source on these subjects, please??
Re: Citizen November 12, 2011 at 7:31 am
……plus end of US underwriting of Israel’s debt so its borrowing comes at a higher price, etc
Question: Is that so? I did not know this one.
That means Israel's debts of international borrowing are guaranteed by the USA??
Thanks, upsidedownism, for the additional info from a ynet-source.
The Likud Charter (English Version) seems to be a very well hidden and secretive proposition!
Reserved only for the initiated??
Not for the public eye to see??
One wonders, what is the reason for such clandestine behaviour.
May be old pre-Israel underground tradition?
The above link for Likud Party Charter is only an excerpt from the 'Peace & Security' chapter of the Likud Party platform dated 1999.
The website adds that The other chapters are currently being translated. The translations still seems in a similar process - as the peace process has remained since decades.
2 years ago i made a major effort to obtain a full English version of the LIKUD PARTY CHARTER. I could not find anything nowhere.
Finally, I directly requested the LIKUD PARTY for such an English Party charter. Repeatedly, 3 follow-ups : I never received any reply from them. Maybe it does exist only in Hebrew, the convenient language to hide and remain within the tribe.
Request/Question to MW-readers:
Has anybody a f u l l English version of the valid Likud PArty Charter??? and can provide a suitable link to such source
Ooooooh, my Goddess!
and that is only the first debacle.....
another 15 or so to come.....!!
Another evidence of US and GOP Double Standards - The Empire threatens little Nepal
Nepal stands to lose millions of dollars in US aid if crack down on Tibetans’ movement continues, warns US lawmaker
….. Tibetan exiles were apprehended while demonstrating by performing prayers in the memory of the late monks who lost their lives during the free-Tibet movement. Nepal is the main route for Tibetans who seek to go into exile, but the country has increasingly cracked down on Tibetans' movement and activities out of fear of upsetting its giant neighbor to the north, the report said.
Representative Frank Wolf, who sits on the House Appropriations Committee that determines US funding, said he would try to block funding to Nepal unless it grants exit visas to Tibetans who seek refuge in the United States.
"We're not just going to cut them, we're going to zero them out," Wolf, a Republican from Virginia and outspoken critic of China, was quoted as saying by AFP
"If they're not willing to do it, then they don't share our values and if they don't share our values, we do not want to share our dollars," he told a congressional hearing on Tibet.
Wolf said he would propose the aid cutoff if Nepal's record does not improve by the time the United States looks at foreign aid funding next year……
04November 2011
link to nepalnews.com
Quod licet Iovi (Israel)- non licet bovi (Nepal)
I realize, apologies are not your strenght.
You are not the only one.
I can assure you that i will not sue you for compensation if you did.
You ask me "You want an opportunity to explain why you aren’t a bigot?
No, i do not.
Re: eee October 14, 2011 at 11:56 am
I have never been addressed in my life a bigot. You better chose your words more carefully, sir.
I do offer you the opportunity of an unqualified apology.
As regards your "argument" - one must ask the right questions, and not construct questions unrelated to the statement made. This applies to both questions forwarded.
With respect to the second question, i agree that it would amount to an equally blind denial not to acknowledge a major involvement of Muslim extremists in terror acts. That is just a matter of fact. In no way, such a statement replaces the need for an honest and thorough analysis of the underlying historical reasons for such deplorable development to have come about.
The video is cheapest propaganda.
We all could see it coming......
The video is such an obiously manipulated propaganda message - who would fall for it?
Is it not interesting / noteworthy and telling that such "counter-argument-propaganda" is being let loose?
And that with the well-tested AS - iron bar of first and last resort!
Of course, the OWS-public slogans in the street can not be fine-tuned to the extent of doctoral thesis.
However, via the intrument of international finance and banking system, who could deny factually that a distinct and powerful Jewish element is to be found there?
The underlying reasons for the fundamental malaise of the international finance and banking system are too complex to reduce them to any single cause. And if some fringe group of the OWS-movement was to voice AS arguments that must be denounced w/o qualification.
As far as i know, spokespeople of the OWS-movement have done exactly that.
Thanks, Walid.
I agree with all but the starting statement of yours, which imho had been a bit misleading. It misled me.
In sum, also what you explain underlines, that actually many want to see MB set free and in action; it is only few who do not.
Re: Walid October 14, 2011 at 3:22 am
..."I don’t think many want to have Barghoutti back in action. I always thought of him as a clone of Arafat...."
What makes you think, that not many want MB set free?
In my judgement, he would be the only charismatic Palestinian leader who could successfully manage a genuine Fatah-Hamas reconciliation, and at the same time be a reliable, but principled partner for any pragmatic I-P peace policies without giving in too much by way of any further "compromising" on fundamental palestinian positions.
Maybe, that is why Israel doesnot release him....?
Maybe, that is why the Fatah establishment is not overly keen to effect his release...?
Marwan Barghouti to be freed - Haaretz reports, see:
link to haaretz.com
By Chaim Levinson
The most prominent name on the list of prisoners to be released in exchange for Gilad Shalit is Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, who was arrested in April 2002 during Operation Defensive Shield.
Do you believe it??
I do not.
Not Ramallah, but in a communal settlement called Nataf, not too far from the historically famous Abu Gosh, which has been and still is at the nadir on the way from Jaffa to JLM, which early day pilgrims had to pass - and therefore had been way-laid often for some "security fee".
Another suggestion to Philip while in JLM:
Try an interview with Greek Orthodox Bishop Hanna Atala, Palestinian and very outspoken on issues of occupation.
I would assume, that the Bishop would be ready for an interview.
Re: Hostage October 16, 2011 at 8:21 am
...The Mizrahi post-Zionist allegations about the systemic ethnic, cultural, and socioeconomic discrimination that marked much of Israeli society in its early years are truthful....
There is nothing to explain away the fact of gross discrimination of Mizrahi Jewish "immigrants".This fact is amply confirmed by Tom Segev in his book :
" 1949. The first Israelis".
First edition 1986; revised edition 1998 with Owl Books (Henry Holt & Company)
Interjection:
May i suggest that we change the subject from Hitler#s charisma to something more appropriately related to our 2011 - issues at hand????
e.g: what about Netanyahu's charisma, and his enormously persuasive rhetoric capabilities, not to speak of the power of LOGIC and LIES.
:-)
re rob October 8, 2011 at 8:50 pm
.....I’m beginning to think (hope) Bronner’s days are numbered, .......
Think / hope ? Dream?
Rob, do you mean numbered as Jew York Times journalist, or numbered in general....?
Anyway, both ways, it hardly would be a loss to mourn about.....
UNESCO decision on Palestinian Membership application - Israeli Ambassador threatens with US cutoff of funds - NYT05Oct11
No need anymore for State Department's spokeswoman Victoria Nyland : Israeli Ambassador Barkan announces USA Sanctions of UNESCO
While Victoria NULAND at the recent press conference can not answer the question whether the UNESCO vote would trigger an automatic cut in U.S. contributions to UNESCO, Israeli Ambassador to UNESCO Nimrod Barkan can:
…On Wednesday, the Israeli ambassador to the organization pointed to the damage that Unesco could cause to itself.
“We hope and pray that the Unesco authorities will realize — and the Palestinians will realize — that there is a very high price to be paid, in American participation in Unesco,” said Nimrod Barkan, the Israeli ambassador. .
See: link to nytimes.com
Grand TEAMWORK Article of S I X NYT-Presstitutes!!
¶Scott Sayare reported from Paris, and Steven Erlanger from Brussels.
Reporting was contributed by
Maïa de la Baume from Paris,
Ethan Bronner from Jerusalem,
Neil MacFarquhar from New York, and
Steven Lee Myers from Washington.
Re: annie September 28, 2011 at 11:13 pm
"there’s something like 5-7 generations in a hundred years."
only as an aside-remark, Annie:
Even with due "respect" for Jewish Singularity and average Fertility performance, how on earth are 5-7 generations in a century possible??
TONY BLAIR - The ME Quartet's Special Envoy with a miserable ZERO- PEACE PERFORMANCE needs an URGENT REPLACEMENT - ASAP!!
Irrespective of the TELEGRAPH's investigative findings wrt TB's Middle East financial activities and a glaring conflict of interest with his responsibilities as Quartet envoy, I have wondered for a long time already, that Blair's impressive ZERO PERFORMANCE as a constructive, forward leading facilitator of a substantive political dialogue and I-P-conflict negotiations, has not found the due interest with Mondoweiss contributors which it obviously deserves.
I like to challenge the Telegraphs statement, that "He has made some progress" , and I am not surprised that the Telegraph remains totally silent about, what that progress is / should be. The G.W. Bush appointee, Tony Blair has not produced any good at all (apart for his own kitty, and, most likely, to satisfy his personal narcissism needs) and one can only wonder what on earth made the other ME Quartet members agree to such a choice of a representative.
What credentials did Tony Blair have to qualify him for the ME Quartet job and task of promoting a genuine peace process??
Perhaps: Being the ex- prime minister of the erstwhile colonial power in Palestine which left (also there) their international mandate and colonial history in a hurry and a complete mess?
Or: His staunch upholding of the "special historic British-USA alliance!?
Or: Many years of No-Fly-Zone engagement of the RAF and crippling food sanctions against the Iraqi population?
Or: by pushing and dragging the British war machinery into an illegal Iraq - war by belying British citizen and the world about Iraq's alleged Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Tony Bliar has indeed thoroughly earned the well known misspelling of his family name.
From own experience and many conversations with Palestinians, both private individuals and office holders like town majors I can confirm the Telegraph article's observation when stating that .." we found very few Palestinians who were prepared to speak well of him…").
His personal and political credibility and reputation in the entire ME is sooo negative and widespread that Blair must be regarded a veritable liability. And neither his conversion to Roman Catholicism nor the activities around the TB Faith Foundation and his related religious verbal contributions could change this. He can not be considered an honest broker in the i-P-conflict because of his strong pro-Israel bias.
From all evidence at my disposal over the last 3 years, Blair's non-delivery record does not even justify the operational expenditures for his office at the Jerusalem American Colony Hotel, travel expenditures and allowances, not to speak of any emoluments he may "earn" for his envoy position.
What is needed: His URGENT REPLACEMENT ! As soon as possible!
re jnslater September 26, 2011 at 5:32 pm
I fear that, such is the state of American politics today, that even these mild measures that you suggest would lead to many Jews, the Israeli lobby, and the Republican right to scream that Obama is selling out Israel. In fact, they already do, despite the fact that Obama has caved on every relevant issue.
in which case the marginal fall-out would be virtually nil or materially neglegible!
Re: Taxi September 26, 2011 at 11:26 am
"Whoever voted for him [Obama], voted for him convinced that he would not be the craven ‘old mold’ politician ..... People actually soulfully believed in him. That’s why his hypocrisy stings the very chambers of the heart."
Not only of those who voted for him, but also all the fools around the world, all the many fools like me who loved to believe that he meant what he said. Had he only seriously tried ONCE to stand up against the Republican Neocons' and AIPAC' bullwark of absolute ignorance, fascism and war mongerisms!!
It all started with the Chas Freemann smear campaign of the Israel Lobby which Obama so easily - willfully succumbed to.
Now, so dismally betrayed, we - or better i for that matter - have to see more clearly : i have been a perfect fool - and what is worse- became more a cynic that i had been before and internally radicalized. That happens when HOPE is so grossly disappointed and betrayed.
As a Minimum: Obama has some very serious explanation to do - publicly naming horses and riders, why he could not do (for domestic issues and international issues) as he would have wished to do.....if he wishes to regain some of all the lost credibility.
re: CloakAndDagger September 26, 2011 at 10:34 am
"Most of the jews in Israel will emigrate (return) back to the US. The subsequent impact on our society will be devastating as the same players wield greater numbers in our politics – leading to our own destruction."
Aha - I see clearly now.
That is why we all have to be 200% "pro-Israel"!!
For USA survival sake....whether we want or not.
For a similar reason (promoting ex-migration) Balfour came up 1917 with his ill-famed declaration...
re: yourstruly September 21, 2011 at 10:50 pm
"and if no one in our politics steps forward in support of justice for palestine?
it’ll be up to us..."
.... and B D S + B D S + B D S .....+ !!!
Shame - Shame - Shame on
Obama the coward and undertaker of HR and International Law and
the USA, Gods own Country of death penalty BARBARIANS!!!
There seems to be no bottom deep enough, the USA and its bigot european allies could not sink........
Re Hostage September 19, 2011 at 9:45 pm
"The notion that there has to be a grand unified policy that assigns [ added: the same] priority to obtaining equal rights for communities living in Israel or the diaspora may not appeal to members of enclaves who are laboring under more aggressive forms of alien persecution or neglect." "
In other words: The plea is that such "grand unified policy" of the PLO-lead struggle for self-determination has to have priorities; and these are in sequence of descending order:
1. -Palestinians in Gaza and the WestBank ; this includes the subjects of borders and minor border adjustments and Jerusalem;
2. Palestinians in the Diaspora - Right of return
3. Palestinians in Israel - end of discrimination + equal citizen rights
In such a prioritized scenario hardly any concessions can be made by the PLO for issues related to 1) above, whereas some reasonable practical concessions will have to be made wrt to 2), i.e. the numbers of actual returnees into the geography of Israel in its internationally to be recognized borders while upholding the principle of the Right of Return to be recognized as a demand by international law. The latter will largely have to be "traded "/negotiated for a satisfactory financial compensation regulation.
With regard to 3) All negotiating PLO representatives can and must do is the outright refusal to recognize Israel as a "Jewish State", which is anyway a gross nonsense "demand" recently introduced by the NTY-government for domestic purposes. Israeli Palestinians must not fight entirely on their own, however, they do possess their own specific "theatre" for non-violently pressing for an end of discrimination within the framework of the State of Israel. Here they could be indeed much more determined if the disease of " Arab and Palestinian factionalism" were less counterproductive.
But don't Jews CLAIM 2000 year old Refugee Rights as their "justification" for their colonial Zionist Project called Israel???
How many generations are 2000 years??
No folding on this one.
Abbas has learnt his Goldstone Report lesson.
The only real alternative to AIPAC is:
MONDOWEISS and
JEWISH VOICE for PEACE and
B D S !!!
Question:
Does anybody know - What is the current position of Rachel Corrie's parents' legal case against the State of Israel?
Still pending with the courts most probably........
re: Kathleen September 7, 2011 at 9:04 am
..." Bill Clinton even came out and said that 50% of terrorist activities would be snuffed out if the I/P issue were resolved."...
I would love to know the reference of this Clinton statement. Could you possibly let me/us know? Thanks
re Kathleen September 7, 2011 at 9:04 am
..." Bill Clinton even came out and said that 50% of terrorist activities would be snuffed out if the I/P issue were resolved. "
I would love to know the reference for this Clinton statement. Could you please provide such? Thanks.
Correction: Last sentence should read:
Maybe the USA needs to re-learn what dignity is : have a look at Tahrir and learn from Egyptians, Tunesians, Syrians and their Arab neighbours…..
(Netanyahu) "….and undermines the strategic interests of its closest ally, the United States.
Not that I expect Obama to raise his voice about this any more than he has over Dogan."
And is this not a tragedy of its own? That the expectations of ordinary US-citizen that the right thing will be done have gone down soooo low, that not only cynics do not / can not expect from their Government even the most natural and expedient behavior!! It is political prostitution by all standards. No dignity left. -
Maybe the USA needs to re-learn what dignity is : have a look at Tahrir and learn from Egyptians, Tunesians, Iraqis and their Arab neighbours…..
ego te absolvo!
WELL DONE!! Great BDS activity and Great lyrics by Sue Blackwell !!
Ludwig v. Beethoven and Friedrich Schiller,
in other words GERMANY, for PALESTINE,
Human Rights and Freedom- and this in London!
Who cares if Angelina Merkel (who is she?) opposes Palestine statehood?
re: Shmuel September 2, 2011 at 6:13 pm
..." And even if it isn’t, it is in the minds of Jews, so it’s anti-Semitic,......
May i suggest that this grand definition by Shmuel of what is AS, is being declared the official definition of Anti-Semitism!!!
Re dbroncos September 1, 2011 at 6:10 pm
..." Also, Bronner doesn’t mention the names of those who wrote the report. ..."
It has been obvious that all (or nearly all) interim articles since the Panel's establishment never mentioned Alvaro Uribe, the colombian ex-President, being a member of BanKiMoons panel team; Uribe has been consequently and conspicuously hidden from the public - by NYT and Haaretz specifically.
Yep - I did not expect any other result.
I only wondered why Turkey agreed to the composition of the Panel and its strange Terms of Reference in the first place !!???
Incidentally, for me UN Gen Secr. Moon's role in this entire Panel affair has been a rather murky one. He was very keen to obtain an extension of his position for a second term......
More of Dogs and Men:
Training dogs for Security in Shilo Settlement by Director of Security for the Binyamin Regional Council
See: link to shalom-magazine.com
......" Agrexco sharks to reopen very soon under a new name."
That has been my first thought also - when reading the bankruptcy news.
So, we have to watch out!!
Good Lord!!
Poor USA!
And you vote and send such people like Florida congressman Allen West as your representatives into Congress??
It is obvious where he and his likes really do belong:
Straight into the next MENTAL ASYLUM!
No more to comment!
Yes, a User Contributed Section, that seems to be a better term for what i had in mind.
I do see the potential of extra-editorial work ... but there are also potential benefits.
Earlier i had tried to chip-in a new subject by using Phil's / Adam's ordinary email-address; however, that did not work.
Issue: Commenting / Contributing on a NEW SUBJECT / Heading
Sometimes i wished to open a new subject - not (directly) related to already posted headings, and also being no "reply" to an earlier comment.
Admittedly, i have been unable to find out how this can be done using this "old" website-design.
Such a facility could probably improve transparency, and minimize the out-of-context contributions.
I like to second Cliff's request.
That would make things user-friendly.
Thank you.
Arab Blood on American Hands
This is to draw attention to an article of Ira Chernus, Professor of Religious Studies at Univ. Colorado at Boulder, published 22August under the above heading by HuffPost.
link to huffingtonpost.com
While the headline itself maybe a somewhat unusual one for the average US-American reader and therefore remarkable on its own, the author highlights the general American ignorance about the true nature of Israel as Zionist state because of the overriding might of US-mass media which keep alive and repeating ad nauseam the myths of Israel's victimhood / insecurity and Arab-Muslim barbarity.
An interesting observation, however, is made with respect to a rather swift change Defense Minister Ehud Barak undertook. His first reaction to the Eilat Terror Attack had been to put the blame (or part thereof) on to the Egyptian Government for being lax on Sinai control. However, once Cairo threatened - in response to the killing of 5 Egyptian security persons –to withdraw its ambassador to Israel, he swiftly changed the tenor of his “quippy” response – and even expressed Israel's (deep?) regrets so as to minimize the risks of bilateral relations turning even more sour. This to highlight that the Government of Israel can like any normal politicians indeed be opportunistically responsive when it comes to their nation's interests:
“ When it's in their interests they publicly accept blame for their actions. Better to apologize than risk losing good relations with a powerful country like Egypt, they figure.”
And adds: Suppose they ran the risk of losing good relations with their most powerful ally, the one on whom they know their very existence depends -- the United States? The Israeli press generally assumes that if Washington truly demanded sincere Israeli negotiations for peace, no Israeli leader could refuse. Obama refrains from making those demands only because he fears the political price at home; he fears us, the people. …“
The professor’s article i.a. can also serve as an example how much he / she him-/herself is victimized by US-mass media’s biased or false reporting. As two relatively small examples:
- Israel did NOT offer an APOLOGY to Egypt. This word is not in the Hebrew dictionary! Barak offered regrets only – which is not the same, even if they were deep ones;
- Secondly, not3 =three Egyptian security personnel have been killed but 5 = FIVE!
But the Israeli press under gag-order repeatedly reported “ at least three and with time and TIME WORLD, which obviously has been the professor’s only source of information, it eventually becomes three (only).
As an academic Professor Chernus should apply due diligence and check the source – after all proper counting and accounting for facts is not a matter of Religious Studies……
E.g., Haaretz’ Amir Oren, had been already absolutely clear on Thursday/Friday night,19August; 01:57, that
There is no need for an investigation. The IDF admits it received an advance warning - perhaps about two weeks ago, and more warnings in recent days - about plans to carry out a terror attack similar to those carried out Thursday.
There was no intelligence blunder. It was a mistake in operative evaluation ….
If Israeli intelligence knew already beforehand about an imminent “terrorist attack” of this kind, no wonder, that there is no need for an investigation! Therefore, while shooting may have still been going on at the near Eilat-site, the IAF had already liquidated the culprits and planners in Gaza!!
To me only one thing is obvious beyond doubt: that very little of what has been reported can be considered an established fact.
Moreover, the mode of PR-handling by the Israeli press and the official Government of Israel spoke(wo)men does not follow the usual pattern. Normally one would expect that the “Eilat event” would be cannibalized to the maximum for Israeli terror- and propaganda purposes; however, surprise, nothing of it! Number and Names of victims and “supporting” real or manufactured photos are missing, and the entire Israeli narrative is so far entirely inconclusive and inconsistent…..
Thirdly, Nothing is heard and done about the JOINT Egyptian and Israeli INVESTIGATION
This is a most reasonable demand by the Egyptian Interim Government, however, it seems that days and weeks must pass until - if at all – such a joint investigation will take place. Before a joint investigation an IDF-INTERNAL investigation will take care of all the facts……..
You better remember the Cast lead operation and the Goldstone Report ? and the findings of the IDF internal investigations, subjecting the Gaza-war carnage committed by the most moral army of the world to the most stringent scrutiny ??
The whole Eilat-incident is indeed shrouded vagaries, clouds and purposive desinformation
There is no free press in Israel when it comes to Security-related issues. And what is not security-related in Israel???
Gag order and Israeli Military Media Control are established everyday-routines in the ONLY DEMOCRACY of the region – as well as misleading desinformations by IDF spokes(wo)men. Naturally this only leads to speculations, more or less probable ones and wild speculations.
Fact is that there is soooo much of contradicting informations floating around, being “officially” released and fabricated that nothing, absolutely nothing can be taken for what really happened at the site, by whom and why.
E.g., Haaretz’ Amir Oren <a link to haaretz.com
had been already absolutely clear on Thursday/Friday night,19August; 01:57, that
There is no need for an investigation. The IDF admits it received an advance warning - perhaps about two weeks ago, and more warnings in recent days - about plans to carry out a terror attack similar to those carried out Thursday.
There was no intelligence blunder. It was a mistake in operative evaluation ….
If Israeli intelligence knew already beforehand about an imminent “terrorist attack” of this kind, no wonder, that there is no need for an investigation! Therefore, while shooting may have still been going on at the near Eilat-site, the IAF had already liquidated the culprits and planners in Gaza!!
To me only one thing is obvious beyond doubt: that very little of what has been reported can be considered an established fact.
Moreover, the mode of PR-handling by the Israeli press and the official Government of Israel spoke(wo)men does not follow the usual pattern. Normally one would expect that the “Eilat event” would be cannibalized to the maximum for Israeli terror- and propaganda purposes; however, surprise, nothing of it! Number and Names of victims and “supporting” real or manufactured photos are missing, and the entire Israeli narrative is so far entirely inconclusive and inconsistent…..
Thirdly, Nothing is heard and done about the JOINT Egyptian and Israeli INVESTIGATION
This is a most reasonable demand by the Egyptian Interim Government, however, it seems that days and weeks must pass until - if at all – such a joint investigation will take place. Before a joint investigation an IDF-INTERNAL investigation will take care of all the facts……..
You better remember the Cast lead operation and the Goldstone Report ? and the findings of the IDF internal investigations, subjecting the Gaza-war carnage committed by the most moral army of the world to the most stringent scrutiny ??
This Israeli investigation is sooo all-comprehensive and exacting, that it is still ongoing…..
re Mooser comment:
“You know what, Witty? You should be banned, for your own good. I don’t know why Phil allows you,…
N e i t h e r d o I !! My patience to be exposed to RW’s never ending garbage and verbal diarrhea has indeed run out since long.
With due respect to diversity of opinions, not even the argument that Witty’s written bullsugar might serve as a catalyst for refuting / clarifying comments by others commentators ( and thus make an unintended “positive” contribution to a debating website like this one ) can imho serve as a valid argument of not banning him. He has been given this forum for too long a time already.
RW’s notorious crap comments including the (then unavoidable) respective volume of clarifying replies by other contributors consumes an unjustifiable volume and space here.
It is annoying – very annoying; it is, resp. he is / has become nothing else than a formidable pain –everywhere.
Phil, I plea for mercy! Why is RW still here??
For heavens, my nerves’and all our good’s sake –
I herewith also plea for RW’s removal from this website.
…” Israel has not succeeded in bringing our story to the rest of the globe”….
That is what it really has been : a story, nothing else, with no relation to reality and truth, retold uncountable times; following the conviction that – regardless right or wrong – all you need to do is to repeat a lie so often, until it becomes the generally accepted reality. Alas, the Israel- “story” tellers have been nothing but liers. And they all knew it, and do know it themselves. It is high time that this house of deception and lies collapses and truth + justice finally prevails. Hopefully ASAP!
“ This (Israel) is a wonderful country. But people don't understand what is going on.”
Whoever has been to Israel for an extended period of time (i mean beyond the 9-11days of “SF-Holy Land Samsonite pilgrimages”, goated by GoI- licensed Tourist guides), and gets to speak to Israelis on issues of history and current affairs, including occupation, breathes the heavy scent of deception and conscious denial everywhere throughout the country. Self-deception and deception is the essence of those who know, ignorance of those who do not, and apartheid and racism of those who are insanely chasing their pseudo-religious folly, whatever the price.
How can Gabriela Shalev wonder that Israel is sooo badly “misunderstood” by the entire world ???
Marwan Barghouti calls for September MASSIVE RALLIES for UN Statehood bid – Hz20July11
link to haaretz.com
….. Marwan Barghouti has called on Palestinians to stage mass rallies in September in support of a diplomatic bid to gain UN membership for a state of Palestine.
Barghouti, a figure widely respected among many Palestinians, said taking the statehood quest to the United Nations was part of a new strategy that would open the door to "peaceful, popular resistance".
Barghouti was convicted of murder for his role in attacks on Israelis during the Second Intifada and was sentenced to life in jail by Israel in 2004.
"I call on our people in the homeland and in the diaspora to go out in a peaceful, million-man march during the week of voting in the United Nations in September," Barghouti said in a statement written from his jail cell in Israel.
……
European Court of HR in Strassburg passes “Monumental Judgement” wrt to Occupying Powers and their Responsibility to Investigate
This Ruling will have far reaching consequences for military operations EVERYWHERE – i trust also also for the occupied Palestinian Terrorities and IDF operations……
See Article in : Guardian 07July2011-07-07
link to guardian.co.uk
Witty-charges per word of Spam - as suggested by seafoid:
This contribution costs RW 132 X per word charge rate !!
Question to Adam: Has the spam word rate already been fixed?
Gellian
...." Now is the time to start putting pressure on Obama not to veto the Palestinian declaration of statehood this September. Time is already slipping away but it can still be done."...
Yes -Yes - Yes!!! Do it !
Yes you can - put him under pressure.
Any Veto he might consider - shall cost him as much as ever possible.
Thanks. I trust Jan. 2004 is a safe guess.
I did check with the Haaretz Archive Retrieval tool.
Nada - Nothing there anymore.
Donald, thanks for this link.
Could you possibly also let us have the date of the interview,
resp. the date of its appearance in Haaretz?
Thanks.
!unwarranted" it may very well be - i agree. I wanted to express my dislike for the videotaping that - above all - may even make appear B.Morris a victim. And that BM can hardly claim for himself.
And: to answer simultaneously marc b. commentary below :yes i do think that from a "public relations or educational perspective" i do find such videotaped confrontation counterproductive.
In sum, the video put me off and i would not be surprized if i were not the only one.
Re Benny Morris video.
i have seen the video only up to 2:10. Even if Morris' views must appear more than critique - worthy and objectionable, i feel that such a staged and video-taped public avalanche of street-criticism rather awful. It appears much more like public persecution than an decent and appropriate confrontation with Morris' untenable "justification" of Israel-policy wrongs, past and present.
Absentee residents:
...and there are numerous absentee residents and empty houses in Ariel for example.
The Central Bureau of Statistics is very silent on genuine figures of ex-migration. Questionable dat are only published on aliya achievements. Of course, ever increasing ones.......
How does the saying go with the sinking ship........???
Potsherd2 June 2, 2011 at 8:13 am
“ I’d like to see the results of this poll question for US Jews: If the continued existence of Israel depended on you moving there permanently, would you go?”
May I add: ..would you go there on a one-way-ticket and live there as single Israeli Passport holder ?
Agreed, indeed a very interesting question. To the point. I also would like to see the results.
I trust to get a truthful response to that question, you’d require myriad of cross-checking questions, to gauge whether or not the answers received were sufficiently consistent and plausible. Decent social research – that is above the usual AIPAC /ADL standard mind you - can be a very tricky proposition.
Anyway, is it possible to initiate such a poll?
Perhaps such research could be undertaken in the framework of a co-financed diploma thesis…..?
Ref.: Documentary Video of MEDIA TOWN about the Dec. 2008 / Jan.2009 Gaza War
For Annie and all
I want to share with you a very recent email correspondence with a “secular” Israeli /US? citizen, ca 55 yrs, Musician, on the above subject. I had distributed the Weblink to the MEDIA TOWN Gaza video widely and received the following as a prompt reply by one Israeli acquaintance:
1. greetings …, i saw about 20 min of the video, and of course its just propaganda, in Gaza now they are building a 3 story shopping mall, so much for not having anything!! Israel should have wiped hamas out! the world needs to stop appeasing islam, appeasing is being nice to the alligator in hopes that he'll eat you last,
Aside from this how are you? ….blessings!!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
2. My reply to this 1st comment (abbreviated):
"of course it is just propaganda."...
Dear …, if it were, do you believe that the hard core facts collected by so many different organizations (AI, Red Cross, the Goldstein Report Fact Finding Team, the UNRWA, OCHA, etc.etc. ) that all these have been reporting about imagined facts?????
Apropos, propaganda / hasbara - don't you have the slightest doubt that you are victimized by the Israeli media-machinery??? I am quite shocked by your take, resp. assessment. Do you really believe what you say/write ? - or is it because you WANT to believe what you believe ?
......I do hope, you take this [video] as an opportunity to do some serious soul-searching - for your own peace of mind and psychic sanity.....Or do you insist [and] prefer to remain blind and continue with collective and individual self-deceit? - …..
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
3 Second prompt email reply of the same Israeli acquaintance:
…. my friend if it was about "occupation" then why didnt the "Palestinans cry about a state in the 30's or 40's, you need to look at the San Rameo meeting of 1920,in Italy. This thing is more than a political movement it is an religious movement, etched in stone,
I am sure you heard about the killings of the Fogel family 5 members were killed about a month ago by 2 Arabs "palestinans, the little 6 or 7 month old baby was beheaded, they reported her throat slit but a friend of ours was at the scene he is soldier with the I.D.F. and the babys head was decapitated, what causes a human to do that to a baby!!!! becauase of "occupation"???
Its like that Itialian man that was killed in gaza, he hated Israel and Jews and he thought he was a friend of the Gazans for hating Israel well some group killed him in Gaza, he was an infidel!! In 1948 the Arabs could have had a state, they rejected it totally, now that they lost, they are like a team who lost in a sport and tried to cheat and want to have thier trophy back, as Netanyahu said about the so called refugees, they aint coming back to israel!!! I was talking to .. Ibrahims Son [= an East JLM Palestinian; added], and he realizes now why there are refugees its because the Arab leaders want refugee camps to keep this so called problem going, they could have absorbed these people a long time ago, like Israel absorbed the refugees from Arab countries,
I am just for truth, I know Israel is corrupt in many ways as every government is, they are still trying to define themselves, they dont know who GOD is, thats why the scripture sais pray for the PEACE of Jerusalem, till Jerusalem becomes a praise in the earth!!! [end]
"surrounded"
We are all surrounded - can you imagine ?
Would it not be awful, if we were not?
In a nutshell: Us Congress Politicians are essentially Prostiticians.
A most deplorable state of democracy.
And such democracy shall be attractive for others as an example to emulate? No, thanks.
I trust, the US citizen have a serious problem at their hands.......
Netanyahu's Speech + Congress Ovations have been a Joint Declaration of War, so to speak. And Obama opened the door for that.
Thank God, I have no tv, seeing this SHAM, would have given me stomach ulcers.
Now, with the political elite of the West in such a miserable and hopeless state and betraying all fundamental principles of the UN Charter,
the strategy left : outright B D S support - 200 %
Netanyahu's Speech + Congress Ovations have been a Joint Declaration of War, so to speak. And Obama opened the door for that.
Thank God, I have no tv, seeing this SHAM, would have given me stomach ulcers.
Now, with the political elite of the West in such a miserable and hopeless state and betraying all fundamental principles of the UN Charter,
the strategy left : outright B D S support - 200 %
Re: Likud Platform
Likud does not even make its platform public.
I have tried and requested them a number of times for an English version of their Party Statutes and Platform. I never got even a reply from them.
And the Party Platform, respectively the excerpt of which, referred to by Hostage must be at least 6 years old, but .... still being translated.
Work in eternal progress. As with the "Peace process"......
The Likudniks hide behind their Hebrew versions. I wonder what else they so adamantly want to hide away from the non-Hebrew speaking public....???
Re Robert Vermine
I had similarly entertained the same hope and am equally surprized about an extreme over-tolerant attitude of the moderation.
Given the rules of this website which have most obviously been grossly disregarded in the past and here again, I herewith like to make a strong plea for the RED CARD being shown.
It' s overdue.
Another “misrepresentation” and “bad aiming”:
link to haaretz.com
While the death toll is more than twenty and injured persons run into the few hundreds, this is what Haaretz writes today, 16May11 –
"…..IDF forces opened fire on demonstrators on the Syria border,
a p p a r e n t l y killing s e v e r a l of them…..
…Barak said that IDF soldiers acted with r e s t r a i n t and d i s c r e t i o n and only opened fire at t h e l e g s of protesters when other crowd dispersal methods proved insufficient…."
justice will prevail?
"…So the fiction has to be maintained that west bank jews live in Israel and west bank Palestinians live in no state at all, which means they have no rights at all….
…and deny them any opportunity ...to declare a state which will give them legal and international rights – that was ok for jews to do, but is anathema for the Palestinians to copy."
Of course: Quod licet Yovi - non licet Bovi!!!
After all, WE are the God chosen people.
Subject: “Visit Israel” programmes by Diaspora Jewish students + youth
Obviously, there are numerous programmes of this nature, addressing different age groups and home countries, and the one mentioned for a 1 year study programme by liberal rabbinical US students does not seem to be the worst of all –all the more if their character and repulsive intentions are that obvious, and, in effect and hopefully more often than not produce what their planners do not intend. Nevertheless, it is and remains pretty disgusting to see young persons so awfully abused.
The most hideous type among such organized study and Israel-familiarization programmes in terms of indoctrination and manipulation appears to me the Shoa-Business tours to Ausschwitz Poland. I learnt from a direct source that these are a.o. routinely arranged for youngsters after their High School graduation, respectively immediately before their joining the Israeli Army for their 3 /2 year compulsory service: so as to properly condition them and get them “into the mood” and the desired “defensive spirit”.
Another type of such programmes i could gather some direct experience myself in Safed / Tzfat, where i met a big group of South African youngsters (ca 16 yrs of age) who took part in one of these organized and heavily sponsored/subsidized 3-months Israel - familiarization and Aliya-promotion tours. They were strictly shepherded by a 30-35year old male guide of the ultra-type as their group leader. Israel–familiarization tours for these ignorant youngsters were very much needed, so i was told by him, because their connection to the LAND was weak, and needed strengthening, considerable strengthening. And that “weakness” is duly taken care of by a tour de force: visiting all the great biblical places (next station after Tzfat was Mt. Gilboa) remembering the great biblical personae and the victories of old; kept strictly away from any unwanted contact and encounter.
Moshe, the guide, was of some vague German origin – he mentioned his father who had lost his grandfather somehow. Conversation with him proved essentially impossible; he himself has been a 200% indoctrinated victim of the classical official narrative pervading the entire country. Of course, he told me what the “facts” are, and upon my question whether he himself has ever crosschecked the veracity and correctness of his opinion and the official historic narrative by other sources, he flatly denied and openly stated, that this were not necessary. He prided himself that his information sources (=exclusively the religious press) were absolutely reliable and trustworthy and needed no cross-examination; instead, he was true to his “principles” and therefore did not need to expose himself to other information, which were lies anyway.
Such direct exposition to wilful indoctrination and cheapest propaganda gave me the shudders and reminded of the worst historic examples of brain-washing propaganda. Most detesting and –i think – a crime of the most immoral type, committed systematically at young adolescents. However, there is reason for hope, that not all of the young South African fell prey to such shameful endeavour.
Madoff and others of his like have been generously financing such Aliya-brainwashing “educational” programmes, and the existing US tax rebate system still supports them.......
For Shingo/ Hostage,
Subject: 8th June 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty killing 34 crew members + wounding 170 crew members+ severe damages of the ship
Re Shingo’s detailed account and resumee: … “this case is much in dispute and will continue to remain in dispute until the glaring contradictions, the holes in the story and the absurd explanations are resolved.”
Question: Since the 4-digits 1 - 9 - 6 - 7 are soooo popular these days – is there any chance that one could force by a legal means the secrecies kept to this date to be finally removed and the military and court ARCHIVES to be (re-) OPENED so as clarify this tragedy ONCE for ALL ????
It appears to me that it would be very useful to make use of the current I/P-Obama-NTY 1967 border debate to go “back to the roots” and clarify / demonstrate to what extremes Israel went to pursue its OWN Interests which hardly could be considered identical with those of the USA.
WATER - WATER - WATER .....
I could not fully follow this avalanche of comments of these last days; however, as regards the outbreak of the "defensive" preemptive 1967 war is concerned, I like to copy a part out of the
Library of (US) Congress Country Studies: see link to lcweb2.loc.gov
...Start of Quote: "
Israel
1967 AND AFTERWARD
By the spring of 1967, Nasser's waning prestige, escalating Syrian-Israeli tensions, and the emergence of Levi Eshkol as prime minister set the stage for the third Arab-Israeli war. Throughout the 1950s and early 1960s, Nasser was the fulcrum of Arab politics. Nasser's success, however, was shortlived; his union with Syria fell apart, a revolutionary government in Iraq proved to be a competitor for power, and Egypt became embroiled in a debilitating civil war in Yemen.
After 1964, when Israel began diverting waters (of the Jordan River) originating in the Golan Heights for its new National Water Carrier, Syria built its own diverting facility, which the IDF frequently attacked. Finally, in 1963, Ben-Gurion stepped down and the more cautious Levi Eshkol became prime minister, giving the impression that Israel would be less willing to engage the Arab world in hostilities.
On April 6, 1967, Israeli jet fighters shot down six Syrian planes over the Golan Heights, which led to a further escalation of Israeli-Syrian tensions.
......" End of Quote
The tensions did not come out of nowhere.
Next to Land - it seems WATER that stands at the beginning of the increasing conflicts between Israel – and its neighbours!!! The construction of the NATIONAL WATER CARRIER has surely been no accidental works of infrastructure, but part of a critical cornerstone of Government of Israel long-term strategy. All later literature and history write-ups seem to forget this which want to insinuate that the 1967-war had been a war that Israel had been tragically fallen into…..
Shingo your comment May 4, 2011 at 4:02 am
• "Wow, what a corker! How ironic that he [Arafat]should think that making peace with Israel was so hazardous to his health when he ended up dying (killed by Israel according to a Sharon advisor), while under Israeli house arrest."
Also Uri Avnery has repeatedly made such statement in his world-wide distributed fortnightly IN-essays, that Arafat had been killed by Israel – by the way, a statement that has never been denied by any official GoI sources. You refer here to some Sharon advisor as a source confirming Israel's direct responsibility for his death.
This is a question that has remained with me in abeyance all the way since the mysterious circumstances of his last days in Paris. The findings of the French doctors and Paris hospital (post mortem done?) have never been released and been treated as secrets.
Though circumstantial evidence around his factual imprisonment in the Muquata in Ramallah and plausibility may speak for a targeted killing (by slow poisoning) of Arafat -
can you perhaps give some reference to the Sharon advisor you mentioned or any other clarifying background to this remaining mystery?
For RW, the second, your essay May 3, 2011 at 11:04 am
• ..”If you have evidence that the Israelis deliberately murdered civilians as a matter of government policy, I would love to hear your evidence…..”
The same mysterious term “…as a matter of policy” is also found in Goldstone's WashPost op-ed of 1st April:…”The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion. While the investigations published by the Israeli military … have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.”
But o n l y intentionally - as a matter of fact!
What other result could have been expected from the Israeli-internal / IDF-internal “self-investigations”?? Perhaps, that the policymakers and the Generals as the planners and military commanders of the Gaza War had found themselves guilty and officially confirmed their own crimes as the Damocles Sword of prosecution under international law is hovering over all their heads ???(e.g.Tzipi Livni-Olmert-Ehud Barak -Gen. Ashkenazy et al. …..) –
I think – since consistent, decade-long practice and tons of evidence don’t seem to satisfy you to prove war crimes committed throughout Israel’s history - the document you ask for is a piece of a Knesset approved policy document duly released by the State Archivar duly countersigned by all concerned responsible (e.g. those mentioned above) and their signatures duly certified by the Israeli Chief Justice?? Anything forgotten? May be an official translation of such document from Hebrew into some other intelligible language by 3 or more translators duly licensed under oath before the ICJ??
" I will note that I do marvel at how much patience you guys have..."
Yes, indeed. Lacking myself of the same too often, one m u s t marvel with profound respect!
i like to take this opportunity to thank the great contributors to this exchange of arguments! I dare not naming names, so, collectively to all : CHAPEAU!!
What a lesson in international law and dealing with Zio-sophistry!
One might think of abstracting the argumentations into a special documentation....?
For Jonah:
with a special dedication and request: it is enough now! Your comments have become a nuisance and a bore. If you do not want to be accessible to any reasoning, or are unable for whatever reasons including those of ideological extremism and blindness, then there is little meaning in continuing this exchange of views and positions. I trust you are even incapable to realize that – rather than convincing anybody – you are just putting offff.
Re your latest diatribe May 1, 2011 at 6:24 am
With due respect to open + liberal dialogue policy on this Website, i am decently repelled by your impertinence and language.
Now that your argumentative air to breathe has become very thin, the little oxygene left before total vacuum sets in you seem to use to start barking and yelling disqualifying adjectives and making subjective flat-plumb affirmative statements only. That is the classical experience i also have unfortunately made rather often, when i had the questionable amusement in Israel and elsewhere to meet personae of your likes and started a bona fide conversation with them.
The impertinence with which you constantly ignore the facts and references put before you; that is not only irritating but grossly i n d e c e n t. As if you had a right to claim for any umpteenth time, that you could even for ad nauseam repeated same arguments / questions (?) expect yet another well reasoned reply-as have been given to you in rich measure. Admittedly, i would certainly not have had alone the patience (not to speak of Hostage’s qualification) to continue such a long-stretched “conversation” with you.
But now, you are overstretching beyond any acceptable measure! You have become nothing but a nuisance here, don’t you notice? Less diplomatically i think one would be well justified to call such behaviour that of the proverbial “p.i.t.a.”-type. Or, alternatively, childish behaviour resembling that of a pre-pubertarian tumbler –doll, endlessly re-emerging with a BUT, …….and restarting the same all over again.
• “…how selective your reading of international law in truth is.”
May i suggest, that you'd better be very careful with the accusation of selectivity? It’s a dangerous weapon, especially because of its enormous boomerang qualities. Though stone-throwing is reportedly an old biblical technique of repute, but when sitting in the very glass house it tends to be self-destructive in the first place.
As you well should know, the Science of History (as distinct from story) is one of - if not the classical branch of science which had and still has a notoriously very poor standing within Jewish, and later especially Israeli tradition. This tradition though is still being diligently cultivated up to date, unfortunately.
You only have to recall the GoI Ministry of Education’s efforts to this day to cleanse school, high-school and other academic CURRICULA (e.g. teachers' training) and literature of historic un-desirabilities and historical facts which the official Israel and in consequence many Israeli citizen do not like and therefore simply deny. Such undesirable facts indeed challenge the “moral high ground” (long lost anyway) of the victims' innocence from which to argue, of course, is much more profitable; which in turn also may well explain the persistent references to Nazi-victimization – regardless whether fitting or not – or indulgences in perceived Antisemitisms behind each and every nook and corner.
Actually, Jonah, taking your comments as indicative, you yourself may well have been victimized by such exposition of systematic efforts of history manipulation. Such attempts of collective denial and self-deceit usually have a devastating backlash, both, on the collective and individual plane.
• “I see that you [, Hostage] carefully avoid crossing the Rubicon and enter into the heart of the Middle East conflict.
One wonders what you actually conceive as the conflict’s heart. It may have escaped your esteemed notice, that the debate has been very much about the heart, all the way, i.e. the still unresolved conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, planned and systematic ruthless dispossession of an indigenous Palestinian population, ethnic cleaning, destruction of hundreds of Palestinian villages, wars, occupation and continued occupation, ignoring endless resolutions by the international community….
The heart of the matter is that no principle of international law can help Israel to defend its policies of aggression, continued occupation and colonisation. Period.
The heart of the matter is that 21st century-mankind has developed beyond the times of colonialism and simply does not accept anymore stone-age concepts of personal and interstate intercourse, e.g. tribalism and racism. The prevailing governing Israeli mind set is still anachronistically clinging on to the concept of the right of conquest and military force! That is out and unacceptable.
What you call “acts of delegitimization” of Israel by the ill-intending, is in substance nothing less than the attempt by the international community to open Israel a path and to accompany Israelis on the way back from total isolation into the community of nations from which post-1967 Israel has self-exiled herself entirely. To be accepted as a member of the international community of nations, Israel also must act as one.
Must you not fear, that even the patience of your hereto last well-wishers is palpably running out??? Instead, in its own interest, including that of rescuing its state from becoming a historical footnote only, the GoI and Israelis should finally, swiftly and wholeheartedly make friends with her neighbours as long as she is (relatively) strong.
However, from all what i can notice, instead of making friends and peace, GoI policies lead only deeper into international isolation and further into the catastrophe, this time self-chosen; with open eyes but blind for self-righteousness. You can not safeguard Israel's future by military might.
• “ I will not again go into details, it is useless.”
Thank you very much.
• “But it is beyond doubt that your legalistic fervor focuses on Israel and its actions alone, aiming at portray it as mere aggressor, while the Palestinians and Arab states appear in the passive role of victim.”
Yes, you are absolutely correct in so far that in order to “enter into the heart of the ..conflict” (as per your request) one has to focus and separate paraphernalia from the heart of the matter. Otherwise one gets entirely lost in the side-issues and dwells on secondary or even more remote subjects. (This old Hasbara technique which does not work anymore.) And – whether you like it or not and continue to deny it, first Jewish immigrants and later the State of Israel have appeared in Palestine and substantially acted as colonialists evicting on a grand scale and by force the local population. And do you want also to deny the reality of the settler-colonies in the West Bank? These are facts which indeed are, as you rightly say, “beyond doubt”.
• “…… but in reality it is equally one-sided and narrow.”
Thank you for telling me what reality you consider as real. Your concept of reality seems to be indeed very one-sided and exclusive.
Equally to what?
Or how far do you want a position to be stretched to become acceptable to you?
On how many different sides can you take or do you want me to consider when it comes to blatant breach of human right violations? A clear position is generally labelled as biased, and that word alone shall suffice to disqualify a principled moral and legal position?
Even Goldstone’s Fact Finding Mission report has been disqualified by the same label. How much must facts be denied or distorted so that they may become not one-sided?
I for once agree here in principle with Elie Wiesel:
"We must always take sides.
Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim.
Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel
• “The false ideological premises are the same. This is clearly confirmed, finally, by your thinly-veiled attempt to equate the Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria (or 'West Bank' since you prefer the coinage derived from the Jordan occupation) with the warmongering and expansionist policies of Nazi Germany. Pathetic.”
This is poor and cheap polemics. I have not noticed any veiled attempt by Hostage to equate anything with policies of Nazi Germany. Those do indeed stand alone.
Should i have overlooked something?
• ….. a question that you have bypassed from the beginning of our conversation: "What lawful measures in your view can Israel take to defend itself from Hamas rocket and mortar attacks against its civilians?"
I can not answer your question as you put it; i am no lawyer.
Nevertheless, it appears to me that there are relevant and irrelevant questions, nonsense questions for example.
Remembering the 4th November 2008 (BTW the very day of presidential elections in the USA!) the IAF intentionally discontinued a truce that has been quite satisfactorily kept by Hamas, and which Hamas had also repeatedly declared to be willing to maintain. That IAF operation out of the blue killed 4-5-6? Palestinians near the Rafah border, and served as the opening phase for the ensuing Christmas-NewYear 2008/2009 Gaza war.
I recall this operation intended to escalate tensions to answer your question : Why not trying to do without those measures which Israel has employed during the past decades?
Why not try a different approach, such as: ending the blockade and occupation; embarking on a constructive neighbourly policy, so that there no any other measures needed by Israel to “defend” her citizen, neither “lawful measures” nor unlawful ones?
re NickJOCW + autonomous region:
"As the mist begins to clear, I glimpse what looks like a Palestinian state with an autonomous region for Jewish extremists."
May be that autonomous region for jewish extremists is t h e solution re Jewish extremism.
I would wonder how they could feed themselves + families without state allowances and given their customary employment rates.....???
" Or, we could see an alternative (third party, if you will) movement growing in numbers from within Palestinian society, however.""
The only realistic (?see below) alternative would be in my eyes MARWAN BARGHOUTI.
He could do it, and get the support of the disillusioned Palestinian Youth.
However, he is (not-) well kept in Israel's prison.And it does not look like that even a Gilat Shalit prisoner swap would get him free.
… “ you have to stop buying into this mindset bibi is interested in peace. unless it is the kind of peace where the palestinians pack up their bags and leave, not going to happen but that is a peace bibi would get behind.”
Annie, Absoluuuuuuutely agreed!! NTY represents the incarnation of deceit. Apart from a very NTY-special concept of “peace”, he obviously has also very unique concept of democracy :
From Benjamin Netanyahu's Youtube interview posted 30 March 2011. In this interview Netanyahu claims again and again that Israel fully provides equal rights for Arabs in Israel, for example:
"There's only one country in the heart of the Middle East that has no tremors, no protests.
That's Israel.
Because we're the only genuine democracy, the only one where we respect human rights. The only one that respects the rights of Arab citizens.
Twenty percent of our population are Arabs. And they enjoy full civil rights in Israel.
It's the only place in this entire vast expanse where Arabs and Muslims enjoy complete freedom and complete equality before the law."
Would you buy a shoe lace from such a person????
Subject: Gaza Blockade – Forthcoming June 2011 Flotilla
link to haaretz.com
..."At this stage, the Netanyahu government has not altered its policy, … But .., alternative policy scenarios are likely to be discussed. One possibility being entertained by Foreign Ministry officials and IDF officers is to allow the vessels to reach Gaza, but only after they pass security checks at the Ashdod port or some neutral harbor...."
What about the following the suggestion?
Ships to Gaza supplying goods (anything but arms) to Gaza will go to the British Navy base in Cyprus first where an official EU team inspects the cargo (possible even with an IDF representative present) and issues a Clearance=No objection certificate. Ships, so inspected and cleared, will be allowed to deliver their cargo to Gaza without hindrance by Israeli Navy…….
Such an arrangement should completely satisfy GoI “Security” concerns. It would greatly ease the work of e.g. the Word Food Programme commodity shipments and other humanitarian and commercial supplies.
Can i have your views? Feasable? Acceptable – as an interim arrangement?
Yes, a great initiative.
I would love to co sign, as a non Mizrahi-Christian.
DGB
"…More Christians have died in those two countries (here: Egypt + Nigeria) last month than Christians in Israel since it’s creation….."
What a sub-standard argument and criterion !!
Do you want us to conclude what an open and tolerant ambience pervades the whole of Israel, from north to south?? So to say: Lower Christian killing rate in Israel = safer place for Christians and more genuine tolerance?
It appears, DGB has either never lived in the unholy land or must be selectively blind and deaf. Christians as individuals as well as their church organizations and NGO-institutions are de-facto grossly discriminated; may be – if at all - marginally less than those of its Arab citizen, but surely less openly, however, very effectively by remote bureaucratic and administrative means. Such less manifest discrimination in Israel is alone due to considerations of political and economical self-interest. Mind you, the GoI has to maintain a minimum semblance of “democracy” and religious tolerance” and the Israeli press is working very hard to convey this image through the international press.
In doing so it only serves its economic interests re (one of?) its largest foreign currency earner: Christian “holy sight-seeing pilgrims”, who are herded by guided tours and licensed tour guides to see what they are supposed to see, and see not what better not. Genuine religious tolerance (not speak of respect) is a no-word in the Hebrew dictionary.
In the oPt, Christians are treated anyway on equal terms, and treated by the occupier as Arabs.
Walid,
thanks for the link.
Actually, most of the individual reports listed there i do have taken note of also. However, honestly speaking, would you really go that far as to interprete these news as Egypt being " ....on its way of becoming a Islamic country that will put Iran and Saudia to shame...."?
Also given the somewhat one-sided source of this list, i like to be more optimistic. I have been to Egypt (admittedly 30yrs ago) and also seen Xian + Muslim Egyptians relating quite comfortably to each other - and then, there had been also more encouraging sights at Tahrir Square recently.
Anyway, we surely agree + both wish such ugly incidents to stop and for a more enlightened and relaxed general relationship between these two great religions in the near Egyptian future, once the pangs + chaos of the revolution (?) will have passed, don't we?
I hope you have taken note of my apology, which Chaos subtly suggested to me as being in order.
Walid / Chaos
"Um, I suppose we can forgive you with you maybe being new-ish here..."
That is correct wrt adding own comments, not so in terms of reading this great blog. Chapeau to Philip Weiss et al and most commentators!
I do regret any injustice committed and say sorry before it becomes overdue. However, was Walid's text not somewhat unfortunate to make me react as i did?
Walid,
..." Egypt is spooking everyone that can read where its heading. It’s on its way of becoming a Islamic country that will put Iran and Saudia to shame. The Salafists and the Brotherhood are already starting to stir..."
This statement is a formidable bullsugar statement of the usual fear-mongering type. With what objective?
Justifying the next round of military escalation..........
that comes close to a reasonable alternative i guess.
My last suggestion would be:
UNHRC Gaza Report 2009
After all, the war ended in 2009, and the report has been submitted in September 2009
Chaos,
Another name for the "Goldstone" Report:
What about its real name?
Gaza War UN-Fact Finding Mission (FFM)Report.
Admittedly, it's a bit clumsy, but avoids the personalisation.
"Susan E. Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, led a vigorous campaign to stymie an independent U.N. investigation into possible war crimes, while using the prospect of such a probe as leverage to pressure Israel to participate in a U.S.-backed Middle East peace process, ..."
Not even that could bring Netanyahu to budge on the settlement issue!! And finally the USA even VETOED the antisettlement resolution in the UNSC!! Can you imagine? It just leaves you speechless, absolutely speechless. How much **** licking is necessary for the USA to feel sufficiently humiliated and bang the table ???? Once for all, and bring this scandalous tragi-comedy of an eternal peace process to an end – final and just end.
"Words alone never mattered to Israel, only deeds,..."
And that is why my plea is for a g e n e r a l BDS of Israel : zhe whole range of export products, touristic visits, holy or unholy pilgrimages, you name it - not that castrated version of BDS Gush Shalom + Avnery are advocating.
It must hurt + that might bring the israeli electorate to come to senses.
Just to Remember Haaretz article of 16. September 2009:
link to haaretz.com
Goldstone's daughter: My father's participation softened UN Gaza report By Haaretz Service Tags: Nicole Goldstone,
Had Richard Goldstone not served as the head of the UN inquiry into the Gaza war, the accusations against Israel would have been harsher, Goldstone's daughter, Nicole, said in an interview conducted in Hebrew with Army Radio on Wednesday.
"My father took on this job because he thought he is doing the best thing for peace, for everyone, and also for Israel," Nicole Goldstone told Army Radio.
She added that her father wrestled with the decision to take on the task. "It wasn't easy [for him]," Nicole Goldstone said. "My father did not expect to see and hear what he saw and heard."
Nicole Goldstone, who currently lives in Canada with her family, spoke of her great love for Israel.
"Every time I dream of returning to the country or that my son will one day immigrate there," she told Army Radio.
"Israel is more important to me than anything. I'm not there at the moment, but my heart is always there."
Nicole Goldstone said she expects to host her father for the upcoming Rosh Hashanah holiday.
This AS definition has no official / formal status. It is "qualified" as a "working definition". It is correct that this "definition" is only the result of few consultations with representatives of the Israel lobby on both sides of the Atlantic, including the American Jewish Committee. - No wonder that it covers nearly everything that only faintly smells of critizing Israel.
it is about high time now, that Obama takes offf his silken gloves!
After such an extended period of trying, now the GoI and its PM are exposed to the world at large, that they do not want peace, but only an eternal peace process.
As from now Obama has all the legitimacy on his side to start playing hard ball.....
" “Israel is bad for the Jews.”
Yes it is.
And makes a farce and spits into the face of the fundamental ethical and moral values of Judaism.