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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Yes it is. Tzipi Livni was invited to the UK after Cast Lead. The British Government decided it was in their interests to maintain dialogue.
link to guardian.co.uk
Ah, forgot to mention credit for the Pentium processor.
Would've been better if they got to the final and were disqualified for Plagiarism.
Although it's no great surprise.
Zionism stole Judaism, then Palestine, then Christianity. A pop act? Pah! Small potatoes......
What a piece of shit.
The only saving grace from this is that the 'status quo' option is now out there.
The proverbial jugular has been exposed.
Leaves me staggered that the US public allow their politicians to be bought so openly. We've got it here in the UK for sure, but at this level and with no legal constraints?
If I win the Lotto tonight, I'm gonna call Obama and tell him I'll pledge the $80M to his election campaign if he tells Bibi to stick it up his bunghole and draw back unconditionally to the 67 borders.
Do you think that would work?
Doh!
@Phil: You were in London?
I would've taken you out for a beer!
The guy you met would be the exception here. Most people don't understand the conflict unless they're Jewish or Christian Zionist and they are a minority here. Other than that it's rational human beings who have a heart for human rights causes and have learned about this issue and are understandably pro Palestine.
I hope it didn't reflect too deeply on our national character.
If you're still here, go to Covent Garden and try the pasty shop. It's like Soul Food for us.
That's easy!
It happened in AD70!
The Romans gathered up the entire population and dragged them on horse and cart up to Poland and Russia.
Despite there being absolutely zero evidence of this, or in fact any record of the Romans ever collectively displacing entire nations (after all, why displace forced taxpayers?) and the utter implausibility of such a logistical task, that's what we've been told and whilst it's absurd beyond all reason, I feel the argument is coherent, albeit only slightly more so than the Easter Bunny.
I think Bill has nailed it. Say nothing then condemn the reaction. I do think sometimes that bending the narrative can be a bit like shooting fish in a barrel for these guys.
I watched some of the vid. Is it legal in the US to claim East Jerusalem as part of Israel?
In the UK we banned the Israeli tourist board from making this claim.
@MHughes976:
Hence the 'flowers in their hair' comment. Finkelstein's 2SS argues within the parameters of the law, whereas 1SS requires an immense amount of faith. Israelis think the Palestinian problem is gone in the West Bank because they're not in fear of their lives any longer from them. I agree it's going to be a long road, or it's going to take a major catalyst like a second Obama term or a new Israeli Government to create a fork in the road.
@Hostage:
'Israel does issue credentials to agents like Michael Orin and Rafi Barak, and there are also non-credentialed agents, including law firms and consultants, who are registered with the Justice Department as agents of Israel. They are all in Israel’s employ and lobby on its behalf.'
Great call out.
I've been reading all this stuff for two years and whilst it gradually goes in, I envy those like yourself that has such retention of information. Metaphorically speaking, it's like I know shit smells bad but when I smell shit, I know it's bad but I can't seem to put a name to it.
On Finkelstein's viewpoint. I largely agree, but I'm also torn. I'd love to see those ideological pricks get told that if they want to stay past the Green Line, they'll have to make friends with a few million 'crazy Arabs', I'd love to see Israel defend 242 and claim their borders are indefensible when an F15 can get to any part of Israel in 80 seconds and I would love East Jerusalem to be handed back, essentially destroying the false theology of millions of evangelical Christians (my personal bugbear),
But I don't see enough people getting behind him.
I think the 1SS is too utopic and given the level of racism in Israel, I think we're asking people who actually don't give a shit to suddenly start wearing flowers in their hair and there's no pressure to do so, but that's where opinion seems to lie.
I don't know. I just feel that something is better than nothing.
@Asherpat:
I think we all know that AIPAC is a quasi Israel Government body, much like the JNF, it's just that there's nothing there to connect the dots. However, to say it where and to who he did, Finkelstein dropped the ball.
'if you want to appear righteous, dont make false and “wishful” statements – or you will be caught out.'
I couldn't agree with you more and I think Norman underestimated his debater here.
I should have put it more simply. It's just come to mind. Montague was more interested in 'shooting the messenger'.
Thanks for the PTJ.
I was a little confused by Sarah Montague's line of questioning. It seemed she didn't care less about I/P, but all about how Finkelstein presents his case. It was like, 'can't you just be a bit nicer about it?'
I don't really know how you can be nice about criticising Israel. Calling out human rights violations, ethnic cleansing and land theft (and that's just today) isn't going to sound pretty coming out of anyone's mouth and as far as criticising his book The Holocaust Industry, I find it amazing when Netanyahu is up on podiums right now with his stomach churning invocations to blackmail support for an attack on Iran and Sarah Montague didn't bat an eyelid at that comparison when it was made.
Simply, by criticising Israel, you're attacking another's nation, political affiliations, religion, etc. Nobody is going to like it, but I think Finkelstein's method, whilst unpopular with his adversaries, is clinical, direct and concise. He doesn't leave any room for debate and lets the facts speak for themselves.
That's the truth in the matter. It's not him, it's the inescapable truth he presents that they don't like. I'd guess this is why he's holding to the two state position when it's all but dead. I agree with him that it's the only enforceable method to arrive at any kind of justice. The one state solution will be the way it goes, if any, but we're all hoping for a radical shift in thinking in Israel and a lot of pressure from outside nations and then we may see a massive repentance and change. I don't think Finkelstein's mind allows for those variants and he's sticking to what has served him best.
I don't know Sarah Montague's position or affiliations. Whether she went out to get a hard journalistic piece on Finkelstein or whether she's got an axe to grind, I can't say, but it seems she wanted to go after the interviewee, rather than discuss the subject of I/P.
I made a jokey comment earlier about Netanyahu's political maneuvering being similar to the Emperor's in Star Wars. The mods obviously didn't let it stand.
But here's my point. We have a radical messianic nutcase at the reigns who's placated his opposition and now has none to speak of.
At what point does this guy start talking about theocracy in order to reinforce the Greater Israel promises in the Torah?
I'm worried.
@Shmuel:
Apologies for the misunderstanding.
This is just as bizarre with the added twist of being insulting.
Forced remembrance?
Whether Arab or Israeli, I think it respectful to honour those who perished in the Holocaust, but I don't see how forcing people to stand honours anyone's memory.
The biggest irony being that they're being forced against their will to remember people who were forced to do things against their will.
Very weird if you ask me.
I used to work in a factory that was originally Nevil Shute's aircraft hangar.
All in all, that's pretty much a winner and kind of makes the against divestment argument untenable. We'll just have to wait until next year.
I bet one of our resident Zios will quip about it not being BDS and only BS now.
Sorry guys, beat you to the punch.
I think the US electorate will view Romney as a basket case and he'll lose. To stress, Obama will not win the election. Romney will lose.
Here's my dream if Obama gets his second term.
Obama will procure the largest pineapple he can find and wedge it up Netanyahu's anus.
Then the thrusting will ensue:
Obama: 'Settlements' Bam!
Netanyahu: 'Thank you sir! Please may I have another!'
Obama: 'Two state solution' Bam!
Netanyahu: 'Thank you sir! Please may I have another!'
Obama: 'Equal rights within Israel proper' Bam!
Netanyahu: 'Thank you sir! Please may I have another!'
“A plague on both your houses.”
Ooh. That's a bit strong isn't it?
@giladg:'Jews have strong legitimate rights as well, rights that go back to the times of the Bible.'
Aw, come on! If I told you I was a Lutheran and as a result a direct descendant of Martin Luther, you'd laugh your head off at me.
If you want to go down the theological road with regard to Judaism's claims to the Holy Land, I can do that too, but just think about one thing: Possession of the land was conditional to faithfulness to G-d. Now a question: If you believe the Bible, which you appear to, so you think Israel is in obedience to G-d at this stage?
If not, you have to ask some serious questions.
@Fredblogs.
Regarding my post last night. I apologise to you for the personal attack I made. It wasn't constructive in any way. I'm sorry.
OK regarding the divestment, it's very simple. No Israeli is being targeted here. It is three companies: HP, Motorola and Caterpillar. It will affect their profits. It's a fair and peaceful means to bring attention to the occupation.
The reasons you made regarding houses without permits: OK, that sounds superficially right, but if you can't get a permit because permits are never offered to Arabs. If your right to buy land is limited, then faced with that kind of situation, you build illegally. Does that give a right to take someones roof from over their head?
Again, with the scanners. I agree that measures should be take for security in order to preserve life, but the question is whether it's right to build settlements on occupied land. Israel say it's disputed land. The entire world doesn't. Should a company support the occupation and should Christians invest in it? Obviously the Methodists feel that it's not an sufficiently important issue for them at this stage.
The point of this whole thing was to draw attention to the bigger picture.
@Fredblogs:
Please advise me if I'm wrong here.
The three companies targeted profit directly from the occupation and misery of human beings. Not Israel vs Palestine. Real people.
As I say, if I'm wrong, please correct me.
If I'm correct, then from the comment you posted about the Presbyterians, that makes you a piss taking prick.
Please. For whatever reasons the Israel lobby has got a win here, that doesn't excuse you from making snide comments. You don't need to say anything. We're all gutted, but your comments just make you sound like an inhuman arsehole. Save yourself.
Note to mods: You're probably going to ban this post on the basis of my inflammatory comments, but I'd like it to stand on the hope that Fred will wake up to his own heartlessness.
What?
The reasons are clear. Three companies that profit directly from the occupation.
What were the reasons to support, or more importantly, not boycott?
I'm very confused.
Ah, the old 'There are far worse than Israel' card.
No one argues that, but those nations aren't engaged in an occupation machine fully designed to make the lives of those living under it so miserable that they have no choice but to emigrate, whilst all the time espousing a pretense of democracy and asking for other nations to pay for their occupation machine by using holocaust guilt and religious blackmail.
They just got my business!
I'm not so sure. At the moment, Israel has Obama over a barrel with the election year. If he wins a second term (yes, I know, 'big if', but Romney isn't a viable candidate in my book), I think he'll turn on them. Nuttyahoo has embarrassed him enough. America doesn't want or need another war in the ME and world public opinion is positively pro Palestinian. When people hear about the situation, they invariably side with Palestine, unless they have a religious reason to support Israel.
The only thing that hasn't bust this wide open is the lack of coverage in the MSM. CBS' 60 minutes show may have changed all that. The Zios have written to complain to the tune of 36,000 at time of writing. One petition thanking CBS for the coverage has got to 27,000. Given that 12 million in the US watched the airing, plus people who've caught it online, the figures show a hot topic, but nothing more. Hopefully more MSM networks will feel brave enough to start covering the issue and the 'special relationship' will start to become a negative at the ballot box.
I hear what you're saying and agree that's what's been occurring over the last 20 years, but I think that's coming to an end. I think they're going to have to shit or get off the pot sooner or later, which only leaves them with the two active options I mentioned.
They've screwed the pooch.
If this isn't a lesson in the outcome of covetousness, I don't know what is.....
So now there's two choices and both are bad news for Israel.
1: 2SS. Clear the settlements = Civil war.
2: 1SS. Israel loses their Jewish demographic.
And to think this could have been (and should have been) resolved 45 years ago.
Dumbasses.
@seafoid: 'The settlers can f*** off. 700,000 douchebag freeloaders'
Ha! The funniest thing is that they're probably 75% of the problem on the ground and 90% of the problem when it come to a 2ss.
Even funnier still is that Fredblogs and Hoppy would probably agree with you.
Like Finklestein says, give 'em notice and tell them when the military are pulling out and you'll end up with 2-3,000 religious nutters who'll be crapping themselves.
You can't see it can you Fred.
It's all coming down around your ears. Sooner rather than later, a US President will stop the vetos and the military aid and then world opinion and most importantly the voice of Palestine will finally be heard.
The saddest thing of all is that those Israelis living in Israel will come to the realisation that their 'victim' nation has been the aggressor and the villain of the whole piece and that they will have to make a very hard and painful peace with the people they've been dispossessing for the last 64 years.
I imagine when it all comes down, it's not going to be a lot different to the movies shot at Buchenwald.
You've been on here long enough, you know that Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing and dispossession, yet you still prattle on with your crap. Wake up. You are the problem. Israel is unsustainable in it's current form and it's evil. Stop defending the indefensible and start looking to a solution. God knows, Israel is going to need it.
Amazing story about Rwanda.
Because there aren't any Israeli Arabs in East Jerusalem as it's actually occupied Palestinian territory and not part of Israel, despite Israel's claims? I'm not boned up on citizenship in EJ, so I did a quick search.
From Wikipedia:
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967, were offered Israeli citizenship, but refused, not wanting to recognize Israeli sovereignty. They became permanent residents.[9] They are entitled to municipal services and have municipal voting rights.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I hope this helps.
I can't imagine Israel are settling Israeli Arabs in occupied East Jerusalem or Israel have offered any EJ Palestinians Israeli citizenship since 1967. Also, I doubt there's any Israeli Arab citizens who'd want to be a part of this dispossession and bureaucratic ethnic cleansing, but I could be wrong.
Damn. He was out of the country when 60 minutes was on? I hope they taped it for him...
Oh dear Fred. The Khazar hypothesis has some weight to it, but it is only a hypothesis. On the other hand, suggesting that all Jews are descendents of Abraham is pure and simple fantasy. The Torah makes many references to proselytes and encourages conversion to Judaism. That doesn't make a convert to Judaism any less a Jew than a descendent of Abraham. But the level of religious obscurantism required to make the statement you make about an 'ancient claim' to Israel is mindblowing.
On the DNA side of things, see here:
link to en.wikipedia.org
geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, says that although the study "does not appear to support" the Khazar hypothesis, it "doesn't entirely eliminate it either."
You're stating something as fact when even the experts in that field cannot agree.
Although I suspect you'll call them Antisemites or self hating Jews too.
The DNA tests actually proved nothing apart from a common gene.
@Mayhem: 'The interviewer gave one of their main experts, the noted anti-semite Lutheran Pastor Mitri Raheb, the opportunity to get off the hook and escape criticism that he deserves.
Raheb pushes the anti-semitic ruse that Ashkenazi Jews are not real Jews but descendants of the Khazars..'
It was Arthur Koessler who made the hypothesis of Ashkenazi Jews descending from Khazars. Koessler was Jewish, so that would make the ruse 'self hating' rather than antisemetic, wouldn't it?
If Pastor Raheb went around saying he was a descendent of Martin Luther, he'd be laughed at, but we are supposed to take Jews seriously when they all claim to be descendents of Abraham. Ever heard the word 'proselyte'? It's all a lie. Eretz Israel is a construct based on an ancient people from 2,000 years ago.
As far as the program goes, it wasn't a one sided hatchet job. Why? Because it wasn't about Israel or Jews. This may amaze you, but it wasn't about Jews, or Israel. It was about Palestinian Christians and why they are leaving the Holy Land of PALESTINE. The reasons are quite plain. They're fed up living under occupation. Why? Because the occupation isn't much fun to live under, I'd imagine.
I'm sorry, but the narcissism is staggering. Israel makes people live under shitty conditions and then people want to bleat about how Israel's image is being attacked. At least Oren was unapologetic when he said 'their inconvenience, our survival'. I'd actually respect that if it were true, but Anonymous shredded that argument further up the page.
The problem as I see it:
American Christians have had a theology pushed on them so hard that they believe they must support Israel because God tells them so. These people won't question their pastors or read their Bibles for themselves, or if they do, they're reading it through the prism of Israel being God's Chosen People and 1948 being the start of the fulfillment of God's end time plan.
You've then got a network of 'Bible Prophesy' pundits who are largely self appointed and coincidentally seem to have a stream of highly speculative fiction and non fiction books on offer which help to perpetuate this (and make the authors untold amounts of wealth), which can be revised and edited as time goes on, because it's all entirely speculative. No one gets called out as their prophecy hasn't been fulfilled, or they can attach some unrelated event to it. A bit like reading horoscopes or fortune cookies.
There are tens of millions of people who buy into this.
Now ask yourself a question: If you were Obama, would you say anything to risk losing those votes? This isn't about campaign funding, this is about people putting 'X' on a ballot box and quite frankly, it's very disturbing.
I held out some hope for Romney's Mormonism to scupper things with this group, but it seems that pastors are getting behind him.
'Yes, I know: I cannot blame only Jews, there are non-Jewish factors at work: gentile Americans are inhibited in their speech because of the Holocaust and the fear of being seen as anti-Semites.'
I'd say rather than Americans being silenced by holocaust shame, I'd say there's a far bigger problem with many very vocal pro Israel Christian groups. For some reason these people get glossed over on Mondoweiss, but I'd say they wield more power than the Israel lobby when it comes to politicians counting on votes.
This occurred in Palestine did it not?
I'd like to say Engelhard's error was poor research or misunderstanding, but it's clearly not. It's his understanding that Israel is Israel and the Palestinian Territories are Israel's too.
This is a classic case of Christian Zionist's plucking passages from a 2,000 year old document and applying it to a modern day situation.
One of the best guides of understanding scripture is to look at when it was written and, who was it written to and why was it written.
In this passage, Jesus was talking about the destruction of the temple and effectively the destruction of Torah Judaism. There are those who want to ignore the events of AD70 and apply it to a future time, but if you read it in context, it's a Jewish prophet (Messiah / King) warning the Jewish people of an impending destruction. There's no antisemitism there. It's internal within the Jews of the time.
We are the bad guys. There isn't a question in my mind. US, UK and Israel. It's no wonder the world hates us.
Isn't that a terrible thing to say?
Both. I know Christian Zios who tell me how much their hearts go out to the poor Palestinian children and in the next breath argue why Israel must exist.
I've been visiting a few Zio sites recently and throwing down questions regarding the occupation. It's amazing how many are unaware of the situation and simply reply with the standard Hasbara of '3000 years', 'ancestral homeland' etc in complete ignorance of what's happened in order to achieve their 'Golden Calf' state.
'Land has been fetishised and values have been abandoned and it is going to be very difficult to rescue the values when it all goes tits up.'
Honestly, I feel quite sorry for those who have been complicit in all this. I think they're going to be a great number of people in Jewish, Christian Zionist and Israeli quarters who will have a very rude awakening when this subject goes mainstream.
@wisemanwi:
Your reading Ahmadinejad's and others quotes in which Islamic eschatology is cited is almost identical to that of Christian Zionist eschatology. There, Israel is also wiped off the face of the earth with 2/3rds being physically destroyed and the remnant converting to Christianity after the Battle of Armageddon.
Not looking for the old deflect, by why does Israel get upset about one, but welcomes the other despite the fact that both theologies demand Israel's destruction?
Sounds like Abbas is taking Yossi Beilin's advice.
link to 972mag.com
I don't get this. Is the pic suggesting that Israel should nuke Iran, or is the pic describing what will happen to Israel if Iran continues it's nuclear program?
Either way, it's sinister, hyperbolic and kind of funny that there's yet another group been formed to defend Israel. Aren't AIPAC, 'Hasbro' (I think it's fitting. They manufacture things for people with infantile minds) and the others doing a good enough job?
Thanks for getting my back Annie. I'm on UK time and have only just read Fred's reply.
@Fred: Thanks for clearing that up. I don't think it's a case of you needing to prove anything. Your word is good enough.
But can you understand why I said it? Your comments are playing on Holocaustology. The world isn't forgetting what happened. It can't. What is happening is the world is realising is that a group of completely unrelated people have been paying for what occurred in Europe 70 years ago. The Germans aren't ashamed to call it out any more. That's not antisemitism. That's precisely how it should be, but Israel has resorted to name calling and evoking memories of the holocaust to keep the wheels on the cart and cow those who dare raise their voice. That's what you're doing.
We are talking about what Israel does. They stop doing it, they are all good with me and I'll happily join you in the fight against antisemitism.
@Fred:
Germany has learned and paid painfully for the Nazis and the world learned and will never forget. The reality is that the generation of Germans who were cowed into silence by Israel and didn't feel at liberty to speak up against it's crimes because of their own shame of actions and complicity are dying out.
It really would have been fairer if Germany gave Bavaria to the Zionists, but instead Palestine's population became the victim of the victim turned victimiser.
Israel is criticised for what it does and that's exactly what Grass did.
Those who don't learn the lessons - 1000 years of history? Please.....
Hasbara really are paying you too much if that the best you can come up with.
Just read through the first two pages. Stein is getting the crap kicked out of him by commenters..
Looks like the narrative is changing on CBS.
"if you deduct the Arabs and ultra-Orthodox from inequality indexes, we're in great shape,"
Read:
"If you exclude our problems, we don't have any problems!"
Wow!
The thing I wonder about is what all those Zionists are going to say after the truth becomes mainstream?
I know a few. They think I've been propagandized by those terrorist Palestinian Islamists.
I wonder if there will be denial?
Deny all they want, I'll be there to remind them what they supported, and that day is coming closer and closer and closer.
Sadly it's 60 odd years too late for those who've suffered and that's the real shame.
I hope Mr Steves' article and message is embraced by the mainstream. And soon.
Is Masada the Hebrew word for The Hague?
Casuistry and sophistry.
More big words! I love 'em! Thanks!
Yes, I know the creationist arguments very well and despite being a Christian who does believe in a creator, I find the creationist arguments rather pointless when the whole idea of the Christian religion is faith which to my mind is the antithesis of proof. God created the world in seven days? OK, cool. I don't see the point of trying to prove or disprove it. You're right Shmuel, Christians do love to shoehorn a modern western reasoning to an ancient middle eastern text and the only way that can be achieved is by employing methods as you described.
Pilpul: Suddenly it all becomes clear. I've been banging on using big words to try to reason out what Zios do such as 'conflate', 'obfuscate' etc, without actually realising that I'm actually completely playing into their hands. The pilpul approach has filtered it's way into the Christian Zionist arena too.
Finklestein does have one thing right here. Stick to the facts. Don't engage in negotiations or invite opportunity for justification. Kicking people off their land is not right. Oppression is not right. Discrimination is not right.
Thanks
A civilian talking on a phone with a machine gun strapped to him and a Palestinian kid 5 feet from him.
Pretty disturbing image.
I was thinking about doing the very same thing for Zio friends I know, even to the point of setting up a phone number for them to call to petition their case.
@Chu:
'But as the growth of the state continued, they lacked a plan to overtake the inhabitants and found that they would not leave, because there will was much stronger than they has assumed. The irony was that they created the same oppressive conditions to the native people that were brought upon them for centuries.'
Sheer poetry.
The whole post is excellent. Many ideologies fail in their bearing out and I think you've hit it on the head. I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Zionists have known for years of their failure, but think they can keep stringing out the lie ad infinum to maintain their ideology.
I'm mulling the Zionist project around in my head lately. I think it's fair to say (although not without exception), that Antisemitism or any racism is simply intolerable in western society. The 'Antisemitism' that Jews have suffered since WWII has been largely related to what Israel has done, rather than an outright irrational hatred of Judaism and it's not something most societies would be prepared to have on their doorsteps, despite the Hasbara claiming that Israel is the only safe place for Jews. It's the least safe place.
I think this is evidenced by the fact that over 50% of the world's Jews live outside Israel by choice.
Another factor to consider: Mizrahi Jews (Arab Jews) make up the largest demographic of Jews in Israel. Many were refugees from Arab States who were expelled or displaced over a period of 30 years between 1948 and the '70's. How many would have continued to live outside Israel if those Arab states didn't expel them because of Israel's policies and the resulting difficulties whilst in their homelands?
US military aid keeps the wheels on the cart and the occupation in full swing. What if US funding stopped?
My point is this: You have a nation that oppresses 50% of the people that live under it's jurisdiction. Over 50% of the people that the nation was created for don't want to live there and over 60% who do are refugees who may not have moved there in the first place.
Precisely who or what is this nation for? It seems it's just some retarded remnant of a colonialist ideology that has been shoehorned into two of the three monotheistic faiths creating a superstitious belief of 'support or be damned' But it's doing no one any good whatsoever. Not just the Palestinians, but the Israelis, worldwide Jewry and Christianity are being bent around to accommodate this crude distortion and all are suffering for what precisely? It just doesn't make sense.
Hey Shingo,
Yes it was, but the then British Prime Minister Lloyd George did make mention of it. My comment was making a concession of that fact more than anything. Here's the text from Wikipedia.
During the meetings of the "Council of Four" in 1919, British Prime Minister Lloyd George stated that the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence was a treaty obligation. He also explained that the agreement with Hussein had been the basis for the Sykes-Picot Agreement. He told the French Foreign Minister that the proposed League Of Nations Mandate System could not be used as an excuse to break the terms of the Hussein Agreement. Under the terms of the Sykes-Picot Agreement, the British and French had agreed to an independent Arab state, or confederation of states, and consultations with the sharif of Mecca. The French had also agreed that their military would not occupy Damascus, Homs, Homa and Allepo.[2] As early as July 1919 the parliament of Greater Syria had refused to acknowledge any right claimed by the French Government to any part of Syrian territory.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I fully intend to get out to Palestine and do that soon.
I've generally found that Zio support comes from a small number of demographics. All get something out of it.
1: Non religious Zio. They want a second home / have family in Israel / have connections there.
2: Religious Zio. They believe it's God's will and draw from the brutalities of Torah books like Joshua to justify what goes on at present.
3: Christian Zio. They believe the Jews are 'chosen' and will convert to Christianity and peach the gospel after 2/3rds of them are wiped out after Jesus returns (this IMO is the most dangerous and pervading group with their influence over American politics. I also think the theology is totally Antisemitic).
4: Racists. They hate Muslims and treat the enemy of their enemy as their friend.
I'm sure there's more, but the point is, whenever I come across a Zionist, they always have a reason to support Israel which is in their interests.
I agree Taxi. They ain't cleverer than me either, and they're certainly far more dishonest.
On another note, but with the same subject, I was debating a Zio on a Murdoch talkback forum the other day. He pointed me to a guy called Howard Grief, who's apparently spent the last 25 years making an iron clad case for Israel based on The San Remo Declaration of 1920. Initially, I was quite interested in this, but after a little reading, I realised a few points:
1: San Remo was in 1920. A lot happened between 1920 and 1947. Even more from 1920 to today.
2: San Remo was based on the Balfour Declaration which was nothing more than a pledge, however San Remo also considered McMahon Hussein.
3: The world's thought patterns was based in colonialism and eugenics, which are both vile modes of thought and should be given as much a wide berth as Communism and Nazism.
4: Israel did not abide to any of the declarations due to their treatment of the indigenous population, which they made no secret about doing from the outset.
Simply put, once I started looking at Grief's 25 year long study, I realised it's nothing but bullshit designed to waste my time and misdirect my attention.
We know the facts and the truth. Zionist thinking is as dead as disco and only of value to those who have a vested interest. It's of no use to anyone who is honest and objective and once a person arrives at the truths in the matter, they're bound by decency to stand against it.
What I'm trying to say in a very round about way: Lets not waste our time by listening to this horseshit. Getting the message out is far more important.
This is all so simple. There was a post here recently about 1SS vs 2SS vs the reality, being the current status quo.
Israel doesn't want a 1SS or a 2SS. It wants to keep digging under the foundations of both whilst throwing in as much confusion, obfuscation, obcurantism and conflation as possible to keep us poor idiots squabbling, and arguing.
Them Zios are very clever.......
Ah well, look on the bright side, at least he didn't bring up the Holocaust....
@Robert:
That's what I said!
But you did it far more gently and eloquently. Nicely done sir!
@skhan:
I was going to suggest that you're looking in the wrong place the find a 'balanced viewpoint', but that's not a fair statement.
If there were such a thing then there would be some kind of accord, compromise and ultimately peace. It's quite apparent that there isn't.
Bottom line is, you have a bunch of people who weren't happy about another bunch of people moving in and taking over the neighbourhood against their wishes. Those who moved in felt they had a Divine right to be there still do and those that lived there for centuries don't agree.
All the rest is filler, propaganda and bias. The books suggested are good, but mainly support Palestinians (as you can gather from the titles). Interestingly, Norman Finklestein and Ilan Pappe are both Jewish.
@Fredblogs:
'He literally said the Farsi words for “must vanish from the page of history”.'
And the start of the sentence was 'This regime'. He wasn't referring to the state of Israel, it's people or it's territory. He was talking about the Zionist regime.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I'm sorry, but that's pretty poor. If you were dealing with idiots who don't know their subject or even how to jockey a search engine, I could see where you'd get away with that post, but all it does here is demonstrate either poor research or outright propaganda. I don't if Hasbara pays per post irrespective of the quality or veracity of what's written, but if that's the case, then I'd sharpen your pencil and your wit before they start implementing quality controls and get yourself ahead of the game.
'i do not want to see an iran with a nuclear weapon. this is, of course, about israel and the middle east because in iranian nuclear weapon would meet a state of a city that wants to wipe israel off the map.'
Why does everyone pull the 'Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map' misquote out of their backsides?
As a British Citizen I'm going to write to Mr Cameron on this.
Great to read the excerpts. I'm looking forward to this book.
The thing that always gets me with colonialists is that they believe their way is the right way.
I know people who think South Africa has taken a turn for the worse since Apartheid fell.
Perhaps it has. But it's their right to choose that 'worse'. This is the principal that colonialists don't get. People want to make their own choices, vote for their own governments and rule their own destinies.
But that's not what this is about. It's all about throwing in yet another point for discussion, another obstacle, another accusation, another way to distract from the real problem.
They'll keep us all talking while they take more land, make new laws and drive the Palestinians out of Palestine.
Now that's just low.........
You've got to have a pretty strong stomach when it comes to this subject, but this is pure filth.
I agree Citizen. Obama seems to be on the run and Israel has him jumping through hoops. I think he's playing the game until the election and it's just a matter of him hanging on to the ball. But you're right. If he drops the ball or it gets knocked out of his hand, it'll be a different matter.
@Les:
I think Obama is playing the game to get a second term. With the loonies running for Republican candidacy, Obama's in with a good chance.
Then I think we'll see the strength of him. Netanyahu seems to be aware of this, which would explain why he's busy changing facts on the ground in Palestine at an unprecedented rate.
@Krauss:
'His recent outburst against BDS as a ‘cult’ is probably reinforcing that. He fears, rightly I think, that this struggle will increase anti-Semitism a lot because the Israel Lobby will fight to the very end and Mearsheimer & Walt were correct that there was a Christian element in the lobby but the fact is, nobody cares what Pastor Hagee thinks except his minions. Do you think the democratic leadership would crawl around him at CUFI’s conferences the way they do of Lee Rosenberg’s AIPAC?'
On the Christian Zionist issue: Hagee is an extreme element of CZ. The majority of CZ's are what you could call 'Soft Christian Zionists'. They've been taught for the last 100 years from the Scofield Reference Bible, don't understand the actual theology behind the Dispensationalist viewpoint that the Scofield Bible teaches They don't necessarily include Israel in their Christian lives and just get on with being good people, but they do believe the foundation of the modern state of Israel is a God given miracle and that it must be protected at all costs. This teaching is so prevalent that adherents are estimated at millions. Popular culture screams the Dispensationalist viewpoint with apocalyptic imagery in the form of movies like The Omen. Many many Christians believe in we are living in the 'End Times' and some form of Great Tribulation is just around the corner.
This all plays very nicely into the Zionist's hands. All they have to do is invoke a bit of Shoah imagery and talk about existential threats and you've got a lot of American voters on your side.
Love it!
I'm going to copy that and put it up in my store.
Yes!!!!!!!!!
One thing I'm puzzled about. This article reads like something of a shock turn of events. Really? Do you expect Israel Firsters and Christian Fundies to be nice when they hold the most belligerent views of all the Judeo Christian faiths and a bunch of people turn up to their event and start criticising their Golden Calf?
I think we'll see far worse than this.
Hmm...
I'm no expert, but aren't you mixing Beatrice Webb with Beatrix Potter here?
link to en.wikipedia.org
link to en.wikipedia.org
Irony.....
The whole Obama 'Natural Born Citizen' thing is highlighted in Washington's Farewell Address:
link to youtube.com
The Founding Fathers made eligibility for Presidential Office conditional, according to this vid. The President's parents must be American Citizens. The idea behind this was to prevent The President's loyalty to the United States from being compromised.
Not that it's really relevant today. The entire nation's loyalty is compromised by it's relationship with Israel.
I am amazed that private individuals are permitted to make such large campaign donations, like Aldelson did for Gingrich.
I read (I think here) that 45% of political donations in the US are made by Jews.
So I think we can safely say the the US' foreign policy is bought and paid for.
How they haven't lost their seat on the UN Security Council is beyond me.
@Citizen: Brilliant idea!
So if Islamic Jihad is illegal and Adnan is a member, then charge him and let the man eat!
But this isn't about that. It's about administrative detention and the convenient tool it is. Why charge a man with a crime he may get off, when you can hold him indefinitely until you can find one that will stick.
I wish I'd had this back in November when I was sent this email (names and email addresses removed):
FYI. Such restraint by Isreal!
Wonder why the BBC doesn't mention this?
To:
Sent: Tue 01/11/11 5:51 PM
Subject: Fwd: FW: Rocket power
Subject: FW: Rocket power
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:51:07 +0000
Hi all
Not sure if you’ve seen this.
We all think that we know what is happening in the Middle East, but how many knew that things were this bad? You won’t find this in the media!
link to idfspokesperson.com
The number of various types (and payload) of rockets fired into Israel by the month and below that, a map showing the range of each type fired into Israel. I hope this is informative.
@Charon:
Jesus is all over the OT. This is the huge error with Christian Zionists. They separate the two books and peoples and claim that the coming of the Messiah for the Jewish people as prophesied was a failed mission. The Christian Church received Him but is merely a 'parenthesis' until Jesus' second coming when the remaining 1/3rd of Jews left after The Great Tribulation will finally recognise him. What they don't like to admit is Christianity was hugely successful in gaining converts at the time of the NT's writing and is recorded as such. They also don't like to admit that Christ came for the Jews at that time and as prophesied instead, hoping some future calamity leaving a remnant of Jews alive so that Jesus can come and 'all Israel will be saved' as per their interpretation of scripture. This is why we've got all these pastors demanding war with Iran. They want to usher in the second coming.
Here's Acts2:16-21:
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
When you compare it to the text in Joel 2:32, something interesting is there (in bold):
32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
According to this, there won't be a national salvation of Israel. There will be a remnant, which there has been since AD1 and continues to this day.
So, if you take the Christian message of the Bible, Jesus fulfilled everything over 2000 years ago. This is the CZ's big problem. They want to separate the whole thing out and place things in time slots that suit their theological framework instead of allowing scripture to interpret scripture.
Taking the entire Bible and reading through, it's very consistent. It's essentially a story of God and His people. They consistently fall out of fellowship with God, starting with Adam and Eve, only to return in repentance. God, knowing that his people cannot live up to the demands placed on them, promised a saviour, Jesus who is God incarnate. All conditions and rituals are wiped away with the only criteria being faith. It was all done on the cross and most of the prophetic texts that CZ's place in a future time such as revelation can be explained in the events of AD70.
The Jews were never God's Chosen people by right and it was never meant to be an ethnic reality. Anyone was welcome. It was all by faith. Because of Abraham's faith, God gave him the privilege of being the Father of the faith leading to his seed Christ.
Sorry for the sermon, I just felt like exercising the theological area of my brain.
Christian Zionist love quoting Old Testament stuff to justify the occupation today. The book of Joshua is a real biggy on this.
Here's one that always bends their heads. The story of Samson.
He committed suicide by pulling a building down on himself, killing 3000 people.
The world's first 'suicide bomber'.
Throw that hand grenade in a room full of Christians. It really pisses them off. In order to justify that, they have to admit that suicide isn't a hell worthy trespass and in certain circumstances is a noble and godly thing to do, thus 9/11 was completely acceptable.
Or they have to accept that the Bible was written in a time when certain things that were acceptable then are in no way acceptable now.
The NIV is designed to do one thing. Sell to the broadest possible audience. It's been distorted to accommodate gender,to be less offensive to modern sensibilities and pushes a Zionist spin on scripture, attacking the deity of Christ. Jesus isn't God incarnate, but merely a transition point, which Jews are yet to recognise.
link to jesus-is-savior.com
Interestingly, it's the most popular bible in the English speaking world. I might be paranoid here, but I wonder how many Zionist pastors use this translation.
NIV: Murdoch owns exclusive publishing rights in the US via his company Zonderan and via Hodder Stoughton in the UK.
Seafoid:
Nice job sir!
Does is have a 'Human Rights Violations', or a 'Land Theft' month.
No?
Nah, not interested then.......
The Women's History month looks a little sinister. Forgive the comparison, but it reminds me a of another bunch of propagandists from the middle of the last century.....
@Danaa:
'I am so jaundiced about 2 state or 1 state, or any state because I know the absence of good will and I recognize what true lack of compassion can mean. Humans from time to time have come across great evil in their midst. And I believe we are about to witness another eruption of forces best kept underground. Unless it can somehow be arrested.'
This is what pains me. One state is such a utopian idea that I can't see ever happening as much as I'd love to see it. I just can't see the hearts of this kind of Israeli turning and accepting equality with Palestinians and I can't see why Palestinians should forgive the years of pain inflicted on them.
It's quite horrible.
Yes!
I am talking to the right kind of Zionist!
Fink has touched on this. Most settlers are economic. They get cheap housing. Few are ideologists. They're nutters who do the whole 'River to the sea' thing.
Advise the IDF's withdrawal and see how many stick around with a land full of 'crazy Arabs'.
Land swaps are fine, that's business between Israel and Palestine. They're far more aware of their respective situations than we are.
The deal you mention needs hammering out. I agree. The question is more about who is going to bring the metaphorical hammer.