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- UN and Hunter College events feature plight of Bedouin refugees, … 3
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- Washington Post’s racism map omits Israel 438
- Israeli report on al-Dura case is vengeful and ‘surreal,’ says … 401
- International Criminal Court opens preliminary investigation into attack on Mavi … 355
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- Kennedy’s insistence on right of return prompted Ben-Gurion to rewrite … 105
- International Criminal Court opens preliminary investigation into attack on Mavi … 96
- Abulhawa declines to ‘balance out’ several Israelis in ‘Al Jazeera’ … 94
- Barbara Boxer’s visa bill for Israel comes under concerted attack 93
- Washington Post’s racism map omits Israel 73
- Uncompromising hope inspired by Ghassan Kanafani 63
- Biden says Jewish ‘influence’ behind American cultural politics is ‘immense… … 57
- Two friends meet for 5 minutes in Jerusalem 54
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- SF officials describe ‘apartheid’ label as ‘intolerance alienating the Jewish community’ http://t.co/gygE6OQrnP, 12 hours ago
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- Voskamp on .@medeabenjamin: Obama’s chf of staff sitting behind me,seemd unfazed & wondered if he shd call off guards http://t.co/PUqQE1DDA0, 15 hours ago
- In electric atmosphere, Medea Benjamin takes over the president’s speech http://t.co/PUqQE1DDA0, 15 hours ago
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click link to see last 100 comments- SF officials describe ‘apartheid’ label as ‘intolerance alienating the Jewish community’ (18)
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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
@W.Jones:
From a Christian perspective (and I'm obviously being sensitive to our Jewish friends here), Christ put Judaism on notice, warning of an impending calamity to occur within a generation (40 years) of his passing.
Looking at the events of AD70 and the fact of Herod's Temple being sacked, Judaism had to rebuild itself and simply is not the same religion that existed in the first century AD.
In light of this and purely from a Christian perspective, Judaism is no more or less correct than Islam, Buddhism, Hindu or any other religion. Yes, there are certainly lessons we can learn from the Hebrew Bible and from the Jewish religion, but it isn't getting anyone to Heaven from a Christian standpoint.
I don't know if anyone took note of the Guardian poll. It was at 68% pro Hawking, then dropped down to 62%.
I bet Hasbara Central had their IP scramblers running and were hitting the 'no' button like maniacs to try and level things up.
I love it went Zionists crap themselves. I just hope they're got the message that they lost the war of public opinion a long time ago.
"The biblical/historical, religious and Holocaust claims were very secondary if considered at all. This I believe continued to be true for decades. I am wondering about the reason for the change; my initial thoughts are that the Nakba was not widely known about and that there has been an increasing need to justify the taking of the West Bank."
I've heard this before. Israel was very secular and left wing and argued it's case through the prism of colonialism, which was still cool 40 odd years ago. Now Israel is more right leaning and uses religion.
My take on this is that the religious element grew out of the 1967 war and capture of Old Jerusalem. This "miracle" germinated both in Israel and in the US with Jerry Fallwell and Hal Lindsey twisting Christian teaching. When you're arguing from an indefensible position you'll ally with anyone and Israel has assumed a religious leaning for the ends of that $3bn paycheck and that UN veto.
Here's a Press TV article about this interviewing Dr Stephen Sizer:
link to youtube.com
Just demonstrates that Israel's legitimacy will always be questionable. It started as a settler colonialist project, threatening the existence of the indigenous.
This makes a strong argument for a one state solution. No matter how you slice a two state solution, Palestinians won't see full justice. The only problem with one state is that it completely relies on Israelis and Palestinians getting along and the disassembly of Israel as a Jewish state.
I'm not sure how that's ever going to happen, so is a two state solution for Palestinians a way for them to get something sooner rather than later?
Awesome reading of the events Annie. I've been out for a few weeks and my reasoning (read: Hasbara bullshit detector) needs a little calibrating.
So true. Kerry was appealing to the Turkish psyche and identifying the events with Boston. Danon and co would have been wise to shut up, seeing that Israel apologised only the other week for the Mavi Marmara massacre.
From the JC article:
'He expressed particular concern over a statement in the judgment that "a belief in the Zionist project or an attachment to Israel" was "not intrinsically a part of Jewishness".
Mr Fraser commented: "For the court to say that as Jews we do not have an attachment to Israel is disappointing considering we have been yearning for Israel for 2000 years and it has been in our prayers all that time."'
You may well have yearned for Israel, but you went about it all wrong. Instead of abusing and raping, you should have tried to court her and demonstrate your love for everything in her, including her indigenous people.
Very interesting comment Hophmi.
I was wondering about this whilst reading the article. It would certainly be in Israel's interest to 'limit' the press in some way so that negative news would be given a lower profile. I understand Japan has certain restrictions in place regarding economic news so as not to alarm their public. Thing is, censoring the news in this way is only going to affect outside opinion. From an inside perspective, it's arguably more effective for Israel to drop their Hasbara tactics around the world and concentrate their time and efforts on indoctrination within.
'It's a rough neighbourhood' / 'Arabs are terrorists' / 'The world is against us as it always has been...' We've seen these kinds of tactic as far more effective. Sadly the end result with be it building walls around itself and closing off diplomatic ties with most of the world.
It's quite sad really.
Gotta say David, that's how I read the whole thing.
I think Obama is playing the long game here. Installing Hagel was the first step. While he prostrated his self to the Israel lobby to get in, his personal opinions are most likely unchanged, which will be reflected in his actions. Obama is in a second term and Netanyahu is weakened.
There's a lot of disapproval here, but it feels like there's a shift. I wouldn't be surprised if we all woke up one day to find that the situation changes at the same rapid pace that South Africa did and without a shot fired.
Here's hoping.......
I was more convinced by Rocky's speech for change in front of the Soviet Polit Bureau after he defeated Ivan Drago.
'If I can change. And you can change. Everybody can change!!!'
@Ira,
He wouldn't speak out against settlements when in Ramallah. He basically spoke about there being no preconditions. Abbas came straight out and corrected that one.
I wish they'd stop applauding everything he says........
I love it when Zionists dismiss recounting of the amount of kidney stone cases in Gazan children as an 'anti Israel rant'.
It just proves how repulsive Zionism can be......
'Maybe Obama is planning some payback?'
Lets hope he's not in Israel if he does. I fear your concerns regarding armed civilians and Obama's security may become a reality.
Defo a positive. Interesting thing is that he ran the gauntlet of pro Israel neocons when many would have just told them to stick the job up their asses.
I think this whole thing as a line up to Obama bitch slapping Netanyahu. Looks like talks with Iran are finding a more positive footing, Relations with Syria's new regime seem to be better so what can Israel possibly lean on to derail meaningful talks about the Palestinian issue?
I love the way the settler is creating facts on the ground throughout the conversation. At the beginning the Palestinian farmer is explaining that it's his father's land. At the end the settler is wanting to know where he should start his tractor. Total chutzpah.
Reminds me of a joke my dad used to tell.
A kid goes to his miser of a father and asks for a Dollar. Dad says: 50 cents? What do you want a Quarter for? I gave you a Dime yesterday. I'm not giving you a Nickel today.......
That's how the Israelis negotiate. You think you're sitting down at the table to talk about the 22% that hasn't been taken from under you and in a few short sentences it turns into a few bantustans and a life of misery.
I don't know why the world puts up with this crap. If you live east of the Green Line, you get a Palestinian passport. End of.
The one thing that I find amazing about Hollywood is the sheer number of blockbusters that have a plot line about minority or indigenous populations being forced to battle the larger Imperial / colonial power that intends to wipe them out.
Does no one see the irony when watching these flicks?
Off the top of my head:
Star Wars
Avatar
Dances With Wolves
Schindler's List
The Matrix
Anyone want to add to these?
Christian Zionists don't consider Palestinian Christians to really be Christians........
@American:
Premillenialism - The end times theology that sees Christianity being 'raptured' up to Heaven and Jesus' return to the Mount Of Olives to reign over the reborn nation of Israel is the dominant theology amongst American evangelicals. There's millions of 'em and they believe it's their Christian duty to defend and protect Israel.
The shame is that they don't unpack their theology. In order for these events to take place 2/3rds of the Jews in Israel must perish and the remainder must convert to Christianity. Not much antisemitism there then. It's quite good fun challenging them on this. The either haven't been taught it and just blindly follow what their pastor preaches, or they develop a form of cognitive dissonance where they can't process the obvious outcome and see it for what it is. Try it. It's most amusing.
'Hasbara to me means “utter bollocks spoken by the incorrigibly mendacious” .'
That's a t-shirt design you've got there......
Hi Annie,
Sorry, I was a couple of glasses of wine in and made a quick post last night. What I mean is this. Hagee is basically a nutjob. AIPAC, Netanyahu and every Zionist knows this, but are grateful for his support. This is a good thing as it points that Zionism is utterly bereft of morals when it comes to supporting their cause. The fact that CZ theology demands that Jews convert or die is bad enough, but Hagee's brand goes a step further and claims that Jews don't need Christ in order for salvation.
Here's where it all goes wrong. As soon as good Christians and more importantly good Christian GOP politicians like McCain realise that Hagee is a heretic, the better. He's doing enough damage by himself.
I wouldn't pay Hagee too much attention Annie. Most consider him a heretic. He's got a big church and a big mouth but he doesn't represent the majority of CZ's.
I don't want to be too controversial here, but does everyone understand that this image is heavily Photoshopped? There's no way you can get that level of clarity in the surroundings and a clear shot in the sight?
' I know it sounds insane, but I honestly think that that is what happened. A weird kind of anti-semitism combined with a profound lack of intelligence and integrity.'
This reminds me of the Israel map thing from The West Wing:
link to youtube.com
I thought there was going to be some reference to Balaam and the talking donkey.
OK, goodo, fantastic and all that. If Israel does nothing, will it be tried in the ICC?
If found guilty, what will the punishment be? The entire population would be at risk of war crimes through IDF conscription and therefore unable to travel (aside from to the US, of course). What about International sanctions?
The UN should start explaining the consequences of a guilty verdict to the Israeli public. They might think about things.
From what's written here, it's good to see Scarfe only apologising for the timing and not the content.
Zionism has been twisting Christians around to an exciting end times theology for over 100 years now which demands the Jews return to the geographic territory of Israel in order for Jesus to return.
The problem is, the theology is woefully false, poor and easily refuted. Those who actually take the trouble of checking it out come away feeling conned into supporting the antithesis of the basic tenets of their faith.
There is an upswing in Christians challenging Christian Zionist teaching and I think it's going to reach a tipping point where either enough people will wake up to the false teaching, or Israel will do something that will be too much for Christians to stomach, then we'll see a massive falling away. Politicians won't feel they need to support Israel to keep constituents happy and unconditional US support will end.
I'd prefer Israel to make a tough peace with Palestine and their neighbours before it comes to this, but I think Israel is on a suicide mission. It sadly won't happen.
Sadly, this is only an algorithm within Google's Adwords facility. It's simply been set up to display ads when something Israeli comes up. Those posting the vids can monetise their channels by accepting ads on their vids. A similar goof occurred when Ebay were placing unfiltered ads on Google. One ad read 'Buy Steve Irwin Dead'.
On another note, why hasn't anyone developed a product to compete with SodaStream, or am I missing a trick here?
Looks like Israel are trying to provoke a 3rd Intifada.
Looking at Kate's Today in Palestine, shootings seem to be on the up.
People ask me why I'm obsessed with the I/P conflict and support Palestine.
Initially it was when I began to learn about the lie that is Christian Zionism.
Learning further about the conflict made me realise that Britain had a large hand in causing it.
Good to see that fact being exposed. Hopefully it'll reach the wider public sufficiently enough that our politicians are forced to apologise for Britain's part and they'll start taking a stronger stance against Israeli oppression.
I particularly like it's openness in the way it treats the Arab population like cattle. 'We'll take this and offer them citizenship' without asking the population.
According to?........
@Mooser:
'But what can you do? Not use the expression? That would be anti-Semantic, I think.'
Ha! You are a brilliantly funny guy!
Do we have to do more violence to the word Semite by now using such descriptions as Philo - Semitism?
From my understanding of the word, it describes those people who originate from the Middle East.
Surely a more appropriate phrase would be Judeophilia, Ziophile or some derivative of would be more constructive.
Sorry to derail, but the modern use of the word Semite, whilst born from a prejudice against European Jews in it's negative 'anti' has suffered a deliberate Zionist hijacking to make claim to an ancestral and historic position that doesn't exist.
It's an unpleasant and much abused word which deserves to die out, much like we're seeing with the 'N' word. I don't see why we'd want to promote it's usage any further.
Sorry. Rant over.
Dude, why do you bother posting such lame crap?
Pam Geller is a racist cnut and is doing Israel or Zionism no favours whatsoever with her evil vitriol, but here you are trying to make some kind of false equivalence argument in which you seem to suggest Mondoweiss is as guilty as she is of distortion.
@seanmcbride:
'I would certainly place many non-Jewish Zionists among the critical mass of true believers at the center of the cult — especially the entire Christian Zionist and Christian Armageddonist contingent. They can’t wait to go zooming over the cliff and into the drink, using Israel for their joy ride.'
====================================================
Here's the problem. The Christian Zionists believe they'll be raptured up to heaven before Israel is destroyed. You're right in that they're pinning their beliefs on Israel and are very happy to attach events in the Middle East to their interpretation of the End Times, but stand with them and ultimately go off the cliff with them? Not according to Christian Zionist teaching! Jesus is going to carry the Christians off into the clouds before the world wipes the Jews out. It's very politely coded as 'The Time Of Jacob's Trouble'. It's also described as The Greatest Bloodbath In Human History.
It kinda sounds a bit nuts and very Anti Semitic to me, but that's what those crazy 'Jew loving' Christian Zionists believe.....
The funniest thing is that Israelis know this and are completely happy to make bedfellows with the likes of Hagee, happily taking donations to build settlement projects and steal Palestinian land.
You really couldn't make it up.
Any Hasbarists here care to revise their previous comments?
This is the problem with Israel. It gets caught out lying every time.
I love this one!
Some Christian Zionist preacher was staying in their village and had a dream that they were the 'lost tribe of Menasseh'
link to en.wikipedia.org
Pretty much sums up so called Biblical claims doesn't it?
Hey Annie,
Thank you. Although I immediately realised there was a misunderstanding of some kind. From a personal perspective, I'll admit a reaction and would like to clarify. I'm becoming increasingly sickened by Zionists whining about how the BDS / anti Zionist / haters hurt the feelings of Israelis. Very obvious realities tell us that hurt feelings don't trump destroyed lives. Depicting Hanin Zoabi in such a way is the prerogative of the person who posted it, but us kicking and screaming at the slightest affront dilutes our case and plays the Zionist's game.
Again, I will defer to Norman Finklestein. We can bat this shit around until the cows come home, but international law and broad consensus does not address 'feelings'. It's simple, but all this 'you hurt my feelings' crap needs to be called out for what it is in the light of those living in the situation.
Sorry Annie, missed this.
Please see here: link to facebook.com
It's got a shopped pic of Abbas at the UN with Oscar the Muppet's head 'shopped on and a pic of Bibi's face shopped onto a girl with ringlets holding a rabbit.
' i’m not following you. they’re fair game are they not? or does the ‘fair game’ rules only apply to the webpage your defending?' I'm not defending anything Annie and that's what I'm saying. Lampooning politicians has risen (or more correctly, stooped) to new levels since the public have been able to manipulate images at home. Anyone's opinions, whether valid or otherwise are able to arrive to a wide audience via social media. That can be a force for good, but you also run the risk of the Streisand Effect. I just think it's a better idea to leave the ranting to the Zios.......
Phil, I think you may be reaching on this one. Looking at the photos on this page it's a bunch of 'shopped' images of all manner of things. It seems everything is fair game. I'd leave it to the Zio's to get all sensitive and butthurt at the slightest little thing.
Any biases aside, the guy sounds level headed, intelligent and above all a peacemaker.
No wonder the Israel lobby hate him. It sounds like he'll make go one better on current Defense Secretary Panetta's suggestion and force Israel to 'get to the table'.
@GilGamesh:
Hamas wouldn't exist if it weren't for Israel fostering them as a divide and conquer tactic against Fatah.
No, a lot of people don't like what they do, but they are the only effective resistance to Israel as the ceasefire proved by getting Israel to the table. It's more shame Israel needs an opponent like Hamas to negotiate with instead of a partner for peace.
'When Jewish colonists point guns at Israeli soldiers, the threat is usually diffused by methods other than the use of lethal force. '
If events were as described (kid puts 'gun' to head of Border Policeman), lethal force should have been used if there was no alternative and it should also be used on settlers, but we do know that Israelis military and police are extremely well trained in such situations. I doubt the gun would have got anywhere near the policeman's head and the kid would've been spitting his teeth on the sidewalk.
I do have one question: Why did the colleague fire six shots? One round from a Glock is going to make a hell of a mess and incapacitate a would be assailant, let alone what the officer being attacked could do with hand to hand combat, unless he was asleep of course.
It all sounds rather dubious to me.........
I went on a Holyland day trip in 1995. I'm not Jewish, I'm a British Christian who kind of bought into the whole Christian Zionism thing, I wasn't aware of when I crossed over from Israeli to Palestinian territory and I wasn't made aware by the guide. Given that it's all considered to be Israel by the Israelis is perhaps the reason.
Short of reading the signs, I'm sure Dunham would be completely clueless if she crossed the English border in Wales, or from Northern Ireland to Southern Ireland so why would she know if she was entering the West Bank? Would she have to produce her passport at checkpoints? That may give her a clue, but I don't think there's any Welcome to Palestine signs at the checkpoints, are there?
I have not idea who this woman is (I know Judd Apatow), but it sounds like she isn't a well read person and probably hasn't been exposed to the conflict, particularly the Palestinian side. That being the case, surely it means that we aren't doing our jobs well enough by getting the message out there. Ignorance is simply what it is. If she knew the situation and chose to bend the narrative, well that's different......
I'm not defending her, but it just seems strange to be disappointed about a person who's ignorant about a certain situation.
'“I really don’t understand what the Israelis and their backers in the United States want,” said Sourani, throwing up his hands in despair. “They want us to vote, and when we do they refuse the recognize the winner. They say they want a two-state solution, but keep building settlements that make two states impossible. But if we say we want to live in a single, democratic state, they say we want the destruction of Israel because we produce lots of babies and will outnumber them. Honestly, I don’t know what they really want, but I can tell you this: the way things are right now can’t last forever, and time is running out.”'
And if this doesn't sum up the utter dishonesty of Israel and the US, I don't know what does.
Get a photo of Raji Sourani, make it into a poster with his words and put them up next to Pamela Geller's posters.
No one wants to listen to Finklestein.
Pick a date.
Anyone east of the Green Line after that date gets a Palestinian passport.
The thing that amazes me is that people still talk about BDS and one state as though Israel can possibly accommodate any equality.
Wow! That was a scary looking dinner party!
Ban Ki is about the only one not bought and paid for.
Or doing the buying and paying.....
Couldn't they find more credible guests?
I used to hate Christiano Ronaldo for helping to get Wayne Rooney sent off during the 2006 world cup.
That said, back in 2006, I was ignorant, pro British and pro Israel.
Ronaldo is a new hero of mine! God bless him.
@Cliff:
I just tried to sign up to a Telegraph account to put the record straight.
I don't think I've seen one article or comment that directly challenges any of Jones' facts but plenty of those who claim they're false without offering any information to the contrary.
Just a lot of obfuscation and lies.
Pam, thank you. Brilliant and concise resource. Bookmarked.
Huh?
They've put the IOF soldiers on trial in Turkey. That's not nothing.
Um, yup. That was horrible to watch.
' And I would feel a lot better if I knew what they are. I know they must be there, “one-state” is a serious proposal.'
Ha!
This is the problem. Should a one state solution be met and all the activists and media are satisfied that the Palestinians have finally got justice, they'll all go away and start campaigning about Tibet or some other place and the racism will still be there, and Palestinians will still be holding on to the shitty end of the stick.
A one state solution could be easily met simply by annexing the West Bank and giving Palestinians Israeli citizenship and unequal rights. That would take enough heat off of Israel internationally. No one really stands up for Arab Israeli rights and all Israel would have to say is that they're 'trying to come up with an equitable solution, but it'll take time'. Like another 50 years.
Like was said to the Israelis this week 'you can't bomb people in liking you'. By the same measure you can't boycott people into liking you either.
@Kalithea:
I'm sorry, there is a two state solution. The problem with it is that it's being managed by the Israelis, a corrupt P.A. and dishonestly brokered by the US.
International law is on the side of Palestine. Most of the world are behind Palestine. Abbas is going to the UN on the 29th. When they get observer status they can go to the ICC.
It's not going to be pretty, but it's a damned sight more realistic than expecting a bunch of bloodthirsty religious loonies to suddenly grow a sense of humanity.
Everyone would support a one state solution if it were based in reality rather than idealism. Michael Jackson's Earth Song video springs to mind.
'90% (absolute minimum) of Israel Jews support “war”'
This is where the one state solution falls flat on it's arse. Who the hell would want to spend the next 20 years living with a bunch of racists who want you dead, in the hope they'll finally come around to the idea of treating you like a human being?
Two state solution, let them build a wall around themselves and the world can forget them.
Well, that framed the conflict rather well, I thought.
Israelis scurrying into shelters from a risk of an unguided rocket hitting them, whilst Gazans having the most sophisticated targeting weapons launched at them and nowhere to go.
'Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had pledged that Israel would cease firing from the sky while Egypt's prime minister visited Gaza.'
Sorry, but Israel don't really have a great track record of late on ceasefires.
Ask Ahmed Jabari about that one Bibi..........
Dear god, we're going to see Cast Lead all over again aren't we?
Interesting that a week after the US elections and just after Abbas announcing the UN bid, Israel have somehow managed to pick fights with Gaza and Syria.
What's next, Hezbollah and Iran?
Netanyahu really does have Masada on his mind.......
And no one is even blinking an eyelid at the fact that the director of the CIA is receiving classified information via his Gmail account?
Is this even registering? Government secrets are being disseminated via Google's email client!
There's a guy in England facing extradition and life in prison for hacking US Government sites. OK, he's got Aspergers and was looking for evidence of UFO's, but it appears that he should have set his sights lower to Google's servers.
Oh dear, looks like Larry Page, Sergy Brin and the gang have got enough sh1t on the US to cause some real trouble.........
The CIA uses Gmail. Ha! Sorry, but what a bunch of f*ckwits.......
@Mayhem:
Your Palestine Chronicle link comes up with the following:
'Invalid Opration'
I'd love to interview those guys and ask them if they were happy for the US veto at the UN to go as well........
Their country would have a new military in it and they'd all be wearing blue helmets.
@Shlomo:
I don't know if you've caught any of Norman Finklestein's latest interviews or talks. Basically, his argument isn't about what's right or fair, it's about what you are able to do within the context of the law. For example, the 1949 - 1967 borders are acceptable (albeit grudgingly) because there was no legal mechanism in place to state that acquisition of territory by means of war either offensive or defensive is admissible before this.
Probably everyone here thinks 22% isn't fair, but it's the maximum of what the law could possibly uphold.
I think the Palestinian negotiators are probably on the same page. Obviously this comes with a number of added bonuses, like forcing Israel's hand, involving the International Criminal Court and exposing the US as a completely dishonest and ineffectual broker.
Interesting. The weather app is powered by Yahoo.
I checked out EJ, Ram Allah and Nablus and they're all coming up as Palestine.
@Dan Crowther: 'Sorry, Phil, but your guy is going down.'
American Jews only represent 2.2% of the population. I'm not sure what you mean by your comment.
Irrespective of denomination, it's almost impossible to honestly square the occupation with Christianity's teachings.
Of those denominations that do, you generally find a patterns. Selective reading, transposition of ancient scriptures to modern day events and 'fortune cookie' Bible study. 'I asked God to show me an answer, so I randomly opened my Bible and came to...'. This one is particularly interesting in light of the I/P conflict as pretty much all of the Christian Bible is filled with verses relating to Israel.
I think these denominations are showing conscience, honesty, and more importantly, maturity to stand up for what they know is right and correct according to their beliefs, irrespective of the names being thrown at them.
The thing that's most compelling about Christian Zionism is that the 'end times' are always framed in the time of the person hold to the belief. With Israel now being in existence, it needs to acquire the Biblical Nile to the Euphrates territory and engage in a massive war against the 'Gog-Magog' alliance which is identified as Iran and Russia.
Needless to say, these things don't bode well for Muslim - Christian Zionist relations.
I'm so tempted to get this book, but I've got so much on my reading list.
I'm so glad that someone has tackled the issue of Neocon / Evangelicals / Zionists and the defamation of Islam.
Brilliant!
@W.Jones:
According to Genesis 23, he bought a cave and a field. He didn't the whole city.
With regard to the lease thing, I think you're referring to Leviticus 25:
23: The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers.'
'Another settler woman grabbed her six year old brother and shoved a stone into his mouth and then crushed his jaws together, breaking his teeth.'
Now this made my blood boil.........
G-d promised the land to Abraham in Genesis 12:3. The exact understanding of the recipient of the promise is understood from Ezekiel 33:
'24 Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we are many; the land is given us for inheritance.'
It goes on to say:
'25 Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?
26 Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land?
27 Say thou thus unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; As I live, surely they that are in the wastes shall fall by the sword, and him that is in the open field will I give to the beasts to be devoured, and they that be in the forts and in the caves shall die of the pestilence.
28 For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through.
29 Then shall they know that I am the Lord, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed.'
@straightline:
I agree with what you're saying. I'm constantly amazed at those posters that can recall sourced and verified information on here and I think it's a valuable resource for education, but it seems that Phil and Adam don't wish to have the history of the subject discussed, (at least some of the less savoury elements) and that's fine, although I must confess I am a little sad that it will mean certain posts and posters will move on.
The point I was making is that if that is indeed the decision, then an even handed approach would be nice. Regular posters know the rules and generally honour them. The trolls who appear every so often to spout why Israel is a necessary entity because of the Shoah need to be censored too, more due to the fact that the rules play directly into their hands. If we get some arsehole on here baiting regular posters with their hasbara and it results in otherwise good and loyal members finding themselves on the 'ban wagon' because they've bit, the trolls win.
Personally, I don't think any subject should be off the table if it is sourced and verified as accurate and I think you're right in your comment about educating, but it's Phil and Adam's house and we live by their rules.
On the other hand:
The one thing that is all too commonplace here is that some hasbarist will take a post about a subject and throw a load of horse shit at it and everyone then weighs in with their two cents. Hey presto, the subject is derailed, never to return to the topic. I'm as guilty as the next guy in wanting to 'show off my chops' and refute the lies, but the hasbarist's endgame is achieved. No one is talking about the subject any longer.
The reality is that most of the facts surrounding the I/P conflict are pretty simple. One group of people are making another group's lives miserable and that's universally considered a bad thing. Most of the posts here are on that subject. Some idiot rocks up and starts some barely related historical event and we all immediately rush to refute. How about we just stay on topic?
One thing on here that really pissed me off today was that I learned that settler women put stones in Palestinian kids mouths and crack them in the jaw to break their teeth. We're talking about mothers doing this to another's six year old child. I've never heard of anything so calculatingly inhuman it what is supposed to be a civilised society but I can bet that some pleb will be on here saying that it's nothing compared to the Shoah.
Sorry, I'm getting wound up and it's nothing personal to you straightline. If the way things work around here is going to take a change, lets use that change to keep it on topic, in the now and give the liars no quarter.
@seafoid:
You've kind of made my point. Israel doesn't have a right to exist any more than any other country. The fact is it does exist and there's nothing anyone can do but move forward. Conflation is useless as is history.
In general it's Zionists who bring the history into the equation to obfuscate the argument. This ends up with guys like Hostage excellently refuting the hasbara, but the end game is achieved. The topic is derailed.
Let's keep it in the today. But if that's got a chance in hell of success, the old 'Jews deserve a state after what the Nazis did' argument needs to go as well. The state of Israel exists whether we like or dislike the reasons. Resolution of the conflict is the issue, right?
I think addressing the issues with the I/P conflict in the 'here and now' is the best course to follow.
Only one question: It's commonplace for Harbarists to attempt to hamstring their opponents by shamelessly using the Shoah to cow their opponents regarding the modern state of Israel. Will this aspect of the debate also be addressed and moderated under the same guidelines?
I don't know why everyone's driving towards a single state, which seems unworkable due to the animosity between Israelis and Palestinians. Levy's poll has demonstrated this. Unless there's a huge enlightenment, it's never going to happen. Conversely, Finklestein recently spoke at The New School about the 1967 borders with 1.9% land swaps to accommodate 62% of the settlers.
Building settlements actually don't change any so called 'facts on the ground'. In reality, it just means that Israel was dumb enough to build on land that didn't belong to them. If I stole a car, then tricked it out with some wide wheels, a spoiler and a cool stereo, would I be able to claim ownership or demand recompense for the work I'd done on it? No.
The answer is that you simply draw a border. Anyone who lives on the Palestinian side becomes a Palestinian citizen and if they don't like it, they move to Israel.
Ooh! I know! I know!
You mean the Antonia fortress right?
Oh and besides, even the ancient Egyptians referred to the area as Palestine in 1150BCE, well before Herod built the temple you're alluding to.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I don't know why you bother Dimmy, you just end up picking your teeth up every time. EJ isn't Israel despite what your lying government tells you.
'In 1980, the Knesset passed the Jerusalem Law, which declared that "Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel",[2] thus formalizing Israel's unilateral annexation. This declaration was declared "null and void" by United Nations Security Council Resolution 478.'
link to en.wikipedia.org
Wow wow wow!
I'm finding myself repeatedly saying here that this issue is as big as the Israel lobby in influencing US foreign policy. This isn't a fringe cult in US Christianity. The majority of evangelical Christians are influenced to some degree by the Scofield Bible and Christian Zionism and this desperately needs to be challenged.
@Abdul:
You're absolutely right. The CZ's are flickin' through their Old Testaments right now applying as many scripture verses about the fall of Damascus to the current Syria issue. Iran and Russia are the terrible Gog-Magog alliance and in the Fundie's minds it's all coming to an end.
Nowhere near enough attention is paid. These people live in a fantasy world, but are in positions of power and influence in the US.
It would be great if Obama perceived this, got a second term and gave Netanyahu some payback.
On another unrelated forum I use, they have a very effective tool. There's a 'mod' account which is used by moderators to close threads or warn posters that they're in violation of guidelines.
This isn't to allow the mods anonymity as everyone knows who they are, as is the case here. It's designed to remove the familiarity of debate with a poster who also happens to be a mod. The offender responds far better to a formal rebuke either on forum or off list via email.
I don't know what happened with Colin, but I think his banishment was due to the Greta thread and his persistent posts at odds with the stated Mondo position. One thing that people don't realise is that we post at the grace and favour of Phil and Adam and banishment from their realm is at the discretion of the kings and their agents.
That said, if the method of banning is simply ensuring posts never see the light of day and hoping the poster gives up, that's not very good. IMHO, if someone takes the time to type up a post (however unsavoury) and post it, they deserve the courtesy of being advised that their comments aren't wanted, either for a certain period, or permanently as the case may be.
As I said before, this is a privately owned site and the owners can run it as they see fit. So I'd do it a little differently. The reality is that I'm not running it.
I think one big issue here is the term 'antisemitism'. It's a word that is confusing at best. Then we have the conflation of Zionism and Judaism.
Can we be more specific and speak in terms of Anti Zionism and Judeophobia?
There is a clear distinction and this clarification would be far more helpful to Palestinian activists in getting their message across whilst at the same time removing this 'catch all' blurred term of antisemitism that Zionists use as a very effective weapon.
I don't think Greta Berlin is a Judeophobe, but certainly an Anti Zionist, but we're seeing many highly respected people speaking out in terms of her 'antisemitism'. I just don't think we're handling the terminology correctly. Effectively, we are gifting to those who seek to cow pro Palestinians into silence a very powerful tool.
@Joe Catron:
You're absolutely right in your interpretation of Galatians 3, but I've found the big issue with using this (and I have on numerous occasions) is that you attack the other person's theology head on. CZ's generally believe that the chosen people of the Christian Old Testament have been set aside and the text of Galatians 3 speaks directly to the Christians in Galatia. CZ's are generally hard wired to dismiss anything out of hand that they consider 'replacement theology' where the Church are the new 'chosen people', and you lose them at hello.
Challenging them by using Biblical instructions on how to respond to modern day law, the CZ doesn't immediately throw up a defensive stance as their faith isn't being attacked, but they do tend to listen and consider Israel's current behaviour and what their support actually causes.
Personally, I'd rather take Galatians 3, as you have, but it tends to close down the conversation or turn it into an unproductive argument.
@Joe Cantron:
RudyM covered my thoughts far more articulately than I did and my post appeared after.
My point is this:
When a Christian Zionist argues for Israel, we have a case in law which questions their support against Biblical teaching.
@ Joe Catron:
Here's my take.
Romans 13 is pretty clear:
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
As Christians, international law can't be disregarded and this is the area in which a strong challenge can be made. The international community and law is thoroughly on the side of Palestinians based on the 1967 borders. This includes EJ, which many Christians are led to believe is Israeli territory. I personally think this area is where we can challenge Christian Zionist thinking.
@Adam:
It's very simple. Support for Israel's behaviour doesn't correspond with Christianity.
Up to t'internet, Christians haven't been able to access information and have been lead from the pulpit on such issues. Kind of like the Catholics pre Vatican II.
Sure, there are some die hard evangelicals who toe the line due to futuristic interpretations of the Christian Bible, but many reasoning believers in Christ see something desperately wrong with supporting what's going on.
Here's where Finklestein's approach works. The law. Christians can't disobey the law, whether local, national or international, irrespective of theological fantasy.
@ David Nelson:
I'm no scholar of Islam, but when the supreme religious leader uses fatwas and terminology like 'haram', 'grave sin', 'forbidden' and 'inhuman', I think we can safely say Iran does not have and will never have nuclear weapons under the current regime. If he was fibbing, wouldn't that be like the Ayatollah lying under oath or using the Lord's name in vain or something?
If any students of Islam could clarify on this, I think it would put the matter of whether Iran is lying or not to bed once and for all.
I didn't watch the entire debate, but skipped forward to the interchange between Baltzer and Finklestein.
I don't know why Finklestein is being considered fringe of late. His two state arguments are sound and realistic. One striking point was that Israel's occupation is cost free. Pressure on the US veto at the UN and the $3bn could easily tip the balance here.
Anna's arguments I found were great, but somewhat idealistic. One state could easily be achieved by dismantling the Israeli regime, but there's no carrot or stick to make this happen. I don't think BDS will reach a broad enough audience for Israel to care financially and I don't think it's powerful enough to spur the Israeli public to sufficient discontent that a new political player who could change the current situation would appear.
'Spencer laughed, but Geller covered her face, as if witnessing the antics of a naughty child.'
The #1 reason Geller needs to convert to Islam. The Hijab.
Please, anything to keep that ugly plastic surgery distended visage covered up permanently.
Plus it'd be a great opportunity to gag her with a sweaty jock strap to stop her spouting her crap and no one would notice.
Edit: If her plastic surgeon is Jewish, does this comment make me an anti Semite?
@Talknic and Kris:
Are you saying modern day Israel has adopted a policy of ethnic cleansing based on Deuteronomy 20, or are you suggesting that this is a prophesy from 4,000 years ago being fulfilled today?
I'm wiping tears of laughter........
Come on Hoppy, where's your sense of humour? You've got to admit he looks very comedic holding up a pic of the Acme bomb from Bugs Bunny.
The scary thing is, he's making Ahmadinejad look like a rational player.
@Bing Bong and Donald:
Many thanks for the kind words, particularly from Bing and thank you for your previous post suggesting we actually engage in civilised discussion. I am as guilty as the next guy for letting the red mist take over. My last post gave me some pause for thought about what I honestly believe and demonstrated once again that dialogue will always trump polemics. Thanks for replying with your comment.
' C’mon there was almost a civil discussion breaking out there.'
Fair point. I'd rather go down the civilised route.
I think it's evident that all would rather end the current situation. Israel has very justifiable and real fears, which would be ignorant to ignore. Palestine has an unjust situation that is obviously compounded by it's leadership and the belligerent stance of surrounding nations.
The status quo is possibly the least line of resistance route for Israel and as long as America has it's back, it doesn't have any real cause for undue concern, but my view is that Israel should be genuinely exploring a peaceful solution now rather than waiting for the world political climate to change for their worse
I don't know if you caught Ahmadinejad's UN speech the other day? Whilst I'm not about to suggest that he's suddenly found rationality (we know he was asked to tone down the inflammatory rhetoric), but his speech was level headed and sensible. Arguably it was utopic and slightly syrupy, but the gist was balanced and sane. On the other hand, Bibi's speech was unhinged and ridiculous for many of the reasons stated on here on MW. I don't think Bibi is the right guy for the job and I don't think he'll be around soon.
Hopefully, a time is coming where we find that a group of rational players can get to the table and work this out. 1SS / 2SS, it's not relevant to us. It's for the Israelis and Palestinians to work out. The reality is that the people of Israel aren't going to pack up and move back to where they came from and the Palestinians evidently aren't going anywhere. I think the reality will be how they work it out rather than Israel's destruction or a final Nakba for Palestinians.
As far as Mondo's position, I'd like to say many here think the same as I do. Obviously some don't, and whilst I'm not going to defend 'destroy Israel' rhetoric, I think it's often conflated with 'end Zionism' by both commenters and accusers much in the same way Ahmadinejad was accused with the 'wipe Israel off the map' thing. The problem is that deadlock is almost a prerequisite in the discussion and defense is the default stance. This in my view is the biggest issue with the entire I/P conflict, and it manifests in posts here.
In reality, given the choice between peaceful solution and destruction or removal of either group from the region, irrespective of which side a person is on, peaceful solution would be the preferred choice of all but a very small minority of those posting here.
'**and can a mod make a decision on my post that’s been awaiting moderation for a while, thanks.'
My second from last post was held back also. I understand the reasoning behind this. Whilst MW isn't responsible for content, they do have some house rules and a mod may have thought some of our dialogue may have breached the rules.
@Bing:
I went to your link. Sorry my friend, the waiting game will end. The people of Israel will realise that the world thinks their country is a pariah and they'll want change.
Hopefully, Obama's next term will be a little harder on Israel and a few abstentions from the security council will put paid to this game once and for all.
Really good that you showed your true colours though. Status quo. Play the waiting game. Nice. Good to know.....
@Bing Bong:
'I think that this site is a small part of, yet very good example of why Israel is able to justify intransigence on certain issues and equate that hatred of the Jewish state with the extensive history of hatred of Jews. Whether it’s hostility toward Israel from Arab nations or MW it’s still hostility, and hostility inspires the defensive.'
This, I think is one of the more sensible things that has been said. I'm not shy about saying that I've been challenged by and thought about this very subject. I tend to 'fence jump' on this. Yes, of course I can see that an accusatory stance is realistically only going to provoke a defensive stance, but it seems that a soft approach only leads to Israel going ahead and doing what they want anyway. For the most part, the world has been cowed into tolerating the Palestinian situation by various means and tactics and those who adopt a more aggressive stance are labeled with various descriptions such as Jew hater or calling for the destruction of Israel / Jews. Such conflations are equally unhelpful but expected from one defending the almost indefensible violations of one group's rights to accommodate another's.
As far as anti Zionism percieved as antisemitism is concerned, I think it's a very blurred issue. I think we can fairly that hating Jews merely for being Jews doesn't exist. Whenever this occurs, the anger seems to find it's basis in what the State does in relation to the conflict or relations to it's neighbours, or when directed outside the state, it's directed at those who support the state in it's various wrongs. It always comes back to the same thing. Not what Israel is intended to be, but what it does.
The problem is that Israel has committed a lot of wrongs (as have the Palestinians and Israel's neighbours, I think everyone will agree), and one shouldn't have to be nice about it. Nice is the more pleasant route to take, I agree with you, but Israel isn't going to play nice and never has done, so the question is how exactly do you address these wrongdoings if there's no positive or negative incentive that's going to shift things.
BDS is a constructive way, but that's thrown out as latent antisemitism, the UN is another, but Israel has America so tied up in knots, it immediately jumps to veto any Palestinian aspirations.
I'm all out of ideas. Do you have a possible solution to the problem? As a supporter of Israel, I'm sure you understand that the situation can't continue even if for Israel's sake.
FV: “Don’t you get it? It’s not hate for Jews, and it isn’t even hate for Israel. It’s hate for what Zionism does.”
BB: It’s hate for Israel.
Thanks for clarifying what I think and the thoughts of most of the civilised world. Most people who've taken the trouble to research are of the opinion that Zionism is an ass backwards hangover from 19th - 20th century colonialism, but you obviously have a different opinion. Good for you. Just don't tell me what I think.
FV: “I see a better future based in mutual respect and tolerance. Does that make me a bad person?”
BB: No denying the Jews the right to a country makes you a bad person.
I'm not denying the Jews the right to anything. They were granted a homeland at the expense of people already living there. 1947 borders anyone? Certainly the Zionists didn't think so. They've gotten away with stealing land up to the 1967 borders and then further stole land to build settlements. Israel could potentially withdraw from the 1967 borders and East Jerusalem (personally, I think EJ should be a Corpus Separatum as per the Partition Plan and that would ease the problem), but they will have a civil war on their hands with the settlers that Israel has installed.
So what's the options? Basically, they've put themselves in a corner. 2 states = Civil war. 1 State = Loss of Jewish majority. The status quo = Getting bashed by the world for being a racist non democratic pariah state.
You can't blame the Palestinians, their supporters, the surrounding nations, Iran, Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah, Hamas or anyone else for this. The problem is completely of Israel's making with US support.
'The claim of fraudulent anti-Semite claims seems to be yours, you’re always saying it. Along with calling anyone not in the destroy Israel gang a Hasbara troll. Its awfully clever of you.'
You're such a liar it's untrue.
Israel destroyed? You really are reaching here. That's not the reason for Mondoweiss, the reason people post here or indeed the reason stand up for Palestinian rights.
The Israeli government just needs to stop treating the indigenous people they colonised the land from like shit and perhaps they'll all start getting along.
@Bing:
No, I don't think any private site is obliged to give a balanced view. The BBC, who are subject to it's licence payers are required to. If Murdoch's News Corp wants to lean towards a Zionist narrative, that's down to their patrons to choose whether they want to tune in and it's the same with Mondoweiss.
My point was that Mondoweiss provides news and information about Israel's occupation of Palestine. By nature it's not going to provide a flattering narrative of Zionism or an unflattering view of Palestinians. That's what you asked for. It's not going to happen.
The one thing I can say about Mondoweiss is that the reporting is by and large accurate and fair and when any inaccuracies are found, they are duly corrected and apologised for. I generally can't say the same for Zionist sites of a similar style as the Zionist narrative and history is so steeped in propaganda and falsehood its not even real.
Sorry? Jews need a country to go to? What on earth are you talking about? If the world had any sense whatsoever, they would have done the just thing and given the Jews Bavaria in 1945, not Palestine where autonomy had been promised to those living in the region. Besides, have you looked at the stats for worldwide Jewry? Half of the Jewish people don't live in Israel. Why do they need somewhere to go when they've largely assimilated into societies as they have done for hundreds of years. Antisemitism is now viewed around the world as repugnant as Jim Crow racism. It's not 1938 you know.
But they did give someone else's land away and a lot of very bad things have happened since. Its time for it to stop. I would hope that antisemitism would be dealt with firmly in the nation it occurs as all racism should be. Your argument is null and void unless you want to include anger some people feel about what Israel currently does. Even that's not antisemitism and people who conflate Jews with Zionism and Israel are idiots who have bought into Israel's con trick. Zionism has no shame in screaming antisemitism whilst allowing Jews to suffer if it furthers their ends. History has shown this.
Israel has made a two state solution all but impossible unless they're going to clear out the settlements and get back to the 1967 borders. Can you see that happening? It's going to be one state and hopefully the end of Zionism, but not the end of Jewish people living in the region.
And warranted or not, you played the anti Semite card here:
'It’s hate for a whole country all dressed up as compassion so the right kind of people (namely not Stormfront anti-Semites) can post here in comfort.'
Don't you get it? It's not hate for Jews, and it isn't even hate for Israel. It's hate for what Zionism does. I see a better future based in mutual respect and tolerance. Does that make me a bad person?
Actually Bing, I want to see Israel sort this out. It is doable, just not in the way you imagine.
'A will to see Israel end'? Here lies the problem:
Whilst Zionists see Israel ending when it loses it's ethno supremacy by giving equal rights to all with it's borders including the occupied territories and addressing the refugee issue, normal people in normal countries see that as a time when Israel actually starts becoming a real nation and a real democracy and representative of all it's people. Saddest of all is that's what the Bible's vision of Israel is.
Oh, and the anti-Semite thing: Don't even try that here. Very cheap and tawdry.
@Bing Bong:
Sorry? Are you suggesting there should be an equal or even handed reporting of Palestinian indoctrination here to balance this article?
OK, I'm sure that could be addressed, but I'm not sure that you're aware, this site discusses (amongst other things) the violations of the Israeli regime on the rights and very existence of the Palestinian people. I believe most are aware of Palestinian indoctrination of children and condemn it irrespective of the fact that they can understand why after 64 years of being oppressed.
Last time I checked, Mondoweiss wasn't the BBC and doesn't have a duty to offer both sides of a story. Neither do any of the Israel apologist sites, but we all know where we're going to get a more honest overview from.
Perhaps you could also lobby the Israel apologist / Islamophobe / Zionist websites and ask them to publish articles such as this one. Just so things can be even handed and fair eh?
Do you think they'd go for that?
No?
OK, get back in your little Hasbara box.
Thanks for taking five minutes of my time I'll never get back.
Hi Annie,
I did a little digging for you. This is an interesting link. Premillenialist Christians (where Christian Zionism bases it's interpretation of the Bible) refer to the lion and lamb thing pointing to an age in the future after Christ's return to Earth where there will be no sickness or suffering and all of God's creatures will be vegetarian.
Interestingly, the phrase doesn't actually appear anywhere in the Bible.
link to andrewcorbett.net
@Pogomutt:
'He did what he had to do to secure the survival of what remained of Europe’s Jews. He should be a man greatly admired, not admonished.'
I'm gathering from this comment you're an Israeli. You've certainly been fed Zionist propaganda as your understanding of the subject is dismal. Begin may well have imagined his role was to secure the survival of Europe's Jews.
You guys seem to love justifying abhorrant acts by attributing some higher moral grounds, but the facts of your statement are completely incorrect.
link to holocaust-history.org
Even the immigration tables from the Jewish Virtual Library are at odds with your 'survival of Europe's Jews' argument. Where did all the others go?
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Pogomutt, you really have scraped the barrel with this one. People here are disgusted at this video. We're equally disgusted at Palestinian fostering of hatred.
I'm also disgusted at your cheap 'you all want Israel destroyed and indoctrinating kids is a good thing to preserve it' bullshit.
Grow up.
@Annie:
Lion / Lamb analogies come from premillenial theology.
The thing that I found most upsetting is that some of those kids were obviously Mizrahi.
It's pure filth to infect the minds of children in this way.
When all this is over, these kids are going to need a whole lot of rehabilitation, like Germany after 1945.
Crying shame.......
Hey Annie,
Thanks for all this. I'll be spending a bit of time digesting it all.
Yes, I agree that we'll be having this discussion about Jordan unless something is done.
One thing that came up today on BBC News is that Barak is talking about a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank leaving the main settlements in place.
link to bbc.co.uk
Obviously, with the settlements and without East Jerusalem a Palestinian state wouldn't be viable and given the financial situation in the WB, I'm wondering whether this could be an opportunity for Israel to give appearances to the world as engaging in peace and withdraw, which would put no financial burden on Israel to prop up the Palestinian economy, wait for the whole thing to collapse around the PA's ears, then walk in and annex the whole shebang.
Hey Annie,
I'm very aware of the theological argument, but I thought it was kept within the confines of the ultra religious of Judaism and Christian Zionism and not within any mainstream. To hear this spoken of in matter of fact terms is more than disturbing and needs to be challenged.
Has anyone thought to seek a refutation from Netanyahu, or any major politician in Israel?
'Most of the Jewish people and most of the citizens in Israel today were born already in the ‘big’ Eretz Yisrael, which is still not so big, rather than in the ‘small’ Eretz Yisrael.'
Sorry, have I read this wrong? Is this to suggest that they're not done with expansion? Are we talking about a Biblical 'Nile to the Euphrates' aspiration?
If so, it completely validates the hostility of the surrounding Arab nations for the last 64 years.
They've probably picked her because she won't raise an eyebrow when UNGA makes resolutions against Israel.
Her Botox surgeon has made certain she can't raise an eyebrow at anything......
I'm sorry, Hilary getting up and doing the whole First Amendment thing as a reason why the US can do nothing about this vid is IMHO more that a slap in the face to the Middle East.
The US has had a friendly dictator installed in Egypt for 30 years who has limited their freedoms and then wants to talk about Constitutional freedoms of Americans?
If I was an Egyptian, I'd be a little ticked off.
Eeek!
Looks like blood is thicker than scripture!
Nice one Anne!
@Colin Wright:
This is my point. Christian Zios have strange bedfellows. They support Jews over Palestinian Christians. I personally know some who believe that Christians who don't support Israel aren't really Christians, so perhaps they're looking at Romney and thinking at least he's supporting their cause. It seems support of Israel is the biggest factor in their faith, over and above any real Christian values.
I didn't even consider your last paragraph before. Getting pastors to support him helped Bushy secure his second term. The CZ's must feel they don't have anyone standing for them. Maybe they will take the stay at home position. It'll certainly take the heat out of the Israel issue. Good thinking Batman.
Looking forward, I'm just hoping Obama gets his second term and kicks Bibi's arse for all this shizzle stirring.
Hey Colin,
I'm sure it is, but I'm getting a fair bit of Christian fundie correspondence and reports from those opposed to their movement who are highlighting that Romney's 'moral' / 'zionist' attitudes are resonating in some quarters of the Christian right. Perhaps that's to do with the 'Obama is a closet Muslim' smear and they'd rather support a member of a Christian cult? I don't know.
What I'm trying to say is that I'm feeling that zionism is having a leading hand in influencing voting decisions of some Christian fundies.