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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
----Hillary Clinton is cheerleading the protesters in Iran, as she failed to do in Egypt.----
Rather funny it is, Philip.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was cheerleading for the protesters in Egypt, and sending out the goons to club the ones in Iran.
well, buck up, maybe someday you'll have five dollars to bet.
maybe if you do all your chores real well, you can ask for a bigger allowance.
"....hell-bent on eradicating all native life."
you really have to cut back on the bilious and nonsensical parts of your comments, they cheapen the better things that you have to say.
Chaos, not sure how you can regard Saudi Arabia as militant, or more militant than Iran.
Can you offer me a bit of help in understanding what you mean?
There are many places that we might see that, and many places that we should, and there are some places where it still won't be allowed to be seen.
Iran is one place where people have a chance to throw off a vile regime and find their way to something better.
It's not the only place, just a likely one.
'---CNN is busy with the mini demonstration in Iran----'
that's the BANNED mini demonstration in Iran, Walid.
the demonstrations there last time weren't mini, and they're going to grow.
you'll again get to see how a real fang-and-claw dictatorship deals with demonstrations.
She went on to say that the Iranian elections were fraudulant a myth that MSNBC’s Rachel Maddow and Richard Engel repeat.
It's not a myth, so repeating it is a good idea. Rachel Maddow is nobody's fool.
no, annie. it means something different, and what appears to you is not always what is.
ideology had nary a thing to do with it.
Naw Chaos, that's another dimwitted attempt at summarization.
It's not Arab nationalism that's inferior, it the Nasserite brand of inferior nationalism that eee criticized.
Your eyes should have stopped and read the part about the lack of democracy. It was mentioned twice, so one time it should have registered.
well said, eee
Not exonerated at all, Chaos. The responsibility for boarding the ship lies with the Israeli leadership.
The IDF soldiers are to be judged for the killing based on the facts and the law.
Chaos, for your own sake, write to the blog admin and ask them if they think I've ever been here before.
I quite truly have not.
While I certainly don't agree with everything that Philip Weiss and Associates post on the blog, I surely do agree there is a need to balance out the overly pro-Israeli accounting of events that I see as the bulk of the reportage in this country.
I also see a great many comments that are unbalanced in the other direction and that make it a little hard for the blog to be taken as seriously as it should.
I hope to contribute here by challenging the more seemingly unbalanced statements and requiring them to be explained.
I see that as good and necessary.
Please continue to argue against anything that I say, but my fuster identity is a couple of years old and mostly has been employed to argue against the absurdities of the right-wingers and the arch-Zionists. fuster started out arguing against the authors and commenters in Commentary's blog contentions.
Got called an anti-Semite there quite often. I recognize you as one of the mirror-images of those type of folks when you carry on.
tree, I wouldn't buy a used report from the IDF in this case. You're quite right not to want to buy what they're selling.
Still, I don't think that I want to buy the Turkish report's conclusions either. That one was also going to come out only one way, as well.
And again, I can only question the basis upon which the Turks are claiming that the first killings occurred prior to the boarding.
(And allow me to thank you for your information.)
and again, you're out to lunch, Chaos.
you can try knowing yourself more than but slenderly before trying to identify other people.
thx for the explanation, annie.
annie, how did you get that 9:38 comment published? isn't the blog down?
==== The Turks claim that to be the case, but I’ve not seen them produce evidence of it.
That wodl be becasue ISrale confiscated all video and photographic evidence and have never returned it.=====
If so, then upon what is Turkey basing the claim that people were shot and killed prior to the fight with the boarding party?
Perhaps the UN inquiry will get hold of the videos and photos and evaluate it.
I have as many imperial thoughts as anybody, Shingo!!!
Chaos
"The Turks" released their own report about the MM.
English is a racist language? Quelle surprise.
Guns are not the only thing with which to arm oneself. cCubs and knives work well.
If you can prove that they fired live ammo at people before boarding, do so.
The Turks claim that to be the case, but I've not seen them produce evidence of it.
Chaos, I'm not in the "blame the victims" crowd. What happened was the responsibility of the Israelis who ordered the boarding.
What I am saying was that the soldiers were attacked by the passengers and shot to save themselves.
Shigo, your "facts" are wrong
----after you alluded to the notion that journalists are routinely killed in Iran.---
Shingo, as I said, that's not what I was alluding to.
-----journalists getting shot in places where there’s military activity is no different than journalists being killed in large scale protests –--
She wasn't killed where and when there was any protesting going on.
Read about her and stop clutching at your pearls. Iran is ruled by a crazed gang of swine.
hophmi
It's no excuse for the Israeli's that not all demonstrations are non-violent.
The Israelis refuse often to treat non-violent demonstrations with decency. They kick Palestinians around and cause a violent reaction when they have no reason on earth to do it, except for a policy that doesn't wish to allow ANY demonstrations by any Palestinians.
They weren't unarmed. they were fighting and they were many more than the few soldiers on the boat.
Much as I don't wish to defend that stuff, those soldiers were stuck in a position where they were fighting for their lives as much as the guys on the boat thought they they were fighting for their own.
First off, I wasn't talking about journalists in Iran until you asked.
I was discussing, with someone else, about why journalists were lagging behind social media.
For your own reason, you asked for one name and then you asked for one name of a journo killed in Iran.
You asked, you received.
Secondly, I'm not clutching at anything. Journalists getting shot in places where there's military activity is rather different from a place such as Iran, where there is no military conflict and journalists are hauled off to prison and raped, tortured and murdered.
How about you give me one name of a journalist taken to an Israeli jail and tortured and murdered?
the folks on the boat weren't 11 year old girls, Shino
Shingo, what are you on about? You asked for names of journalists killed?
You want the name of one killed by the Iranians?
Zahra Kazemi
there's one for you. arrested, raped and tortured in jail, and murdered.
link to cbc.ca
Roxana Saberi is an American journalist that they merely stuck in jail for a bit, convicted her in one of their kangaroo courts, and finally released.
So these Jordanian school girls to go meet Israeli school girls and an Israeli soldier nearby starts shooting all the little Jordanian girls.
He kills seven 11 year old girls.
His mother, on television, tells the world that he said he was sorry that his gun malfunctioned because he wanted to kill them all.
They take him away and sentence him to life in prison.
Years pass by and his lawyer ends up as Israel's Justice Minister and the guy goes and joins a group of people demanding that the killer of these children be allowed out of jail.
Should the Jordanian's be angry about the Israeli Minister's actions or is it just a freedom of speech thing?
Name one, Shingo?
Michelle Lang is one.
How about a list of 850?
Here's a place to learn a bit about it.
link to cpj.org
relatively few, child, relatively few.
fewer than there were.
western coverage, annie, follows local coverage. there are few western reporters around the globe and in some places reporters are shut out by the government or other armed groups or even killed if they can't be co-opted.
---------With the foreign media banned, the internet restricted, and the mobile phone network shut down, the Iranian authorities are doing their best to suppress any news about the latest anti-government protests.
Pictures that did get through via the internet appear to show thousands marching peacefully in Tehran and four other cities, Isfahan, Shiraz, Tabriz and Kermanshah, when they were tear-gassed and baton-charged. Dozens have reportedly been arrested.--------
link to euronews.net
annie, if you think that the coverage is the problem, feel free.
I believe there to be several problems vastly greater than the coverage and that need shifting vastly more.
The coverage will lag, as always, but as state control of the media in the ME weakens, it WILL shift.
watching the revolution televised presented an opportunity for a dramatic shift in the image of the arab world-----
As well, it pointed a way for the Arab world to shift. It's not the image that's most in need of revision, it's the governments.
nothing is wrong with his English.
nor with his thoughts.
I found the letter.
Yes, I support Beinart's signing of it and his position.
I haven't seen the letter.
If you have a link, I'll read it and answer your question.
annie, thanks for the link to Beinart, a favorite of mine from the days when he was editing The New Republic and quietly refusing to run Marty Peretz's racist garbage in his own magazine.
beautiful.
determined and peaceful demonstrations are a vital component of destroying the occupation.
and annie, Avi is simply FOS. I did not say or imply what he says that I did.
so you can agree with him if you don't mind a share of what he's full of.
Natanyahu is right correctly to be seen as a reflection of a society that's been moving to the right for decades, but things change from time to time.
Netanyahu was out of government and might never have returned had 2000 ended differently.
Avi, old boy, I did not say that Netanyahu was the cause or the origin.
You've reasoned poorly and drawn an incorrect conclusion from my remark.
annie you're right.
meanwhile, no convictions. the settlers are not punished. they’ve been tiptoeing around arresting the rabbi leader of the pricetag attacks for over a year. nothing.
thus far, it amounts to little or nothing but empty words.
not with this government. did you know 1/3 of all children born in israel & OT settlement this year were to hardis? this is an explosion. the poulation is becoming more fundie as we speak and that’s reflected in the way they vote.
---annie.
I know the stats and I agree with you about it not happening while Netanyahu and his ugly cabinet are running things. Netanyahu and his band of boys aren't going to last out the year.
your site's link, on this post, to Ynet, Philip.
that story also about the gross "price tag" sttack" calls it a reprisal for the Israelis having demolished a couple of settler structures.
there's a link on that page to another story in Ynet
saying
"Two settlers were arrested and three others were detained for questioning. The settlers claimed that security forces acted brutally using excessive force
link to ynetnews.com
The story says that the IDF is calling for the violence by the settlers to be curbed.
They, perhaps cynically, pulled them out of Gaza.
The day is coming when they'll start applying some kind of law to the defiant ones in the West.
It's slowly starting and it's going to accelerate.
It's going to be as painful as cutting off a gangrenous limb, but it's just as necessary.
The settlers know it's coming and all their cries about "price tags" evidence their awareness.
I long for the day when the settlers who scribbled that 'Mohammad is a pig' stuff start finding themselves feeling rubber bullets in their legs and batons across their backs before getting their worthless butts tossed into jail.
Neither funny nor true. North Korea & Myanmar make my list as well.
and Iran surely isn't an Arab state, is it, Chaos?
Perhaps it more funny that some people target only non-Arab states in the Middle East. There are other states in the MIddle East with hideous governments and their are other states in the Middle East that oppress Palestinians rather cruelly.
tree, the complaints are unending, the complainers merely many.
'Thomas, a longtime critic of Israeli policy, replied: "Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine." She continued to say that the Palestinians are "occupied" and that the Jews should "Go home" — to Germany, Poland, America and "everywhere else." '
Who cares about your opinion, for that matter?
You stated that "No one" said that. I gave two examples. There are more and they're not hard to find.
One of them has a job in the Iranian government.
Yasser Kashlak?
Helen Thomas?
sherbrsi
It's a lovely attempt to use the ambiguity of the language to discredit the entirety of the movement.
I read it and understood both the literal meaning and the intent.
When you find that those opposition leaders, and their families, get put under arrest for no dam reason at all except for protesting, you have a fair clue what the regime, which rather routinely labels opponents of the regime as Zionists, is doing here.
Next step is labeling them "enemies of God" and executing them.
Shingo, I'm not really aware of an Iranian offer of a grand bargain in 2003.
If you could print out the text of it, I would be very willing to read the terms that they presented.
I'm also aware that the US sent arms to Iran when Reagan was president.
We learned better.
The Israelis certainly need to reconcile with Turkey, but there is no peace to be made with the Iranian theocracy in it's present form.
Iran is going to have to change or it's going to face a swift decline, IMO.
"Iran’s opposition leaders have requested permission from the government in Tehran to hold a rally in support of Egyptian demonstrations, the pan-Arabic newspaper Asharq al-Awsat reported on Monday. It said opposition leaders Mehdi Karroubi and Mir Hussein Moussavi reportedly applied for permits to set up a rally on February 14.
According to the London-based daily, the two leaders sent a letter to the Iranian Interior Ministry via their websites, in which they ask permission to “declare our solidarity” with demonstrators in the region “seeking freedom against the governments of tyranny.”
The ministry, expectedly, did not respond."
link to bikyamasr.com
Well, I guess that explains why the websites got shut down and why Karroubi was placed under house arrest.
Iran’s judiciary denied permission
"for a pro-democracy protest on Monday, by saying: “If an individual truly shares the brave Egyptians’ and Tunisians’ motivation, then he will participate in the rally to be held on (Friday), the anniversary of the Islamic Revolution’s victory, along with the government and the nation,”
“Choosing another day (to hold a rally) means these individuals wish to be in a separate front and will create divisions,” Iranian Judiciary spokesman Gholamhoseyn Ezhe’i said in a statement. “This is a political act but the people have to be aware, and if required, they (people) will respond to them.”
Al_jazeera reports.....
"Monday's protests have been called at the behest of Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi, both of whom were backed by the movement as opposition presidential candidates in the election two years ago.
Permission to hold rallies in Egypt was sought prior to the demonstrators' actions but no such permit has been granted in Iran, and the country's Revolutionary Guard has already promised to forcefully confront any protesters.
The Facebook page calling for demonstrations has over 48,000 followers.
While it remains to be seen if Monday's protests materialise, there are reports that at least 14 activists have been arrested in recent days and that Karroubi has been placed under house arrest.
A pro-government message online says that the Green Movement is supported by Zionist forces
Among those reportedly being held are some of Mousavi's inner circle."
Yep, those candidates in the 2009 election, formerly high-ranking members of the Iranian government, who passed the Iranian Guardians Council purity test before being allowed stand for election, are now........Zionists.
Totally believable, isn't it ?
hyped, kalithea?
certainly the majority of Iranians aren't calling for a revolution, but the demonstrators are calling for their rights to be respected by a government that brushed their votes aside and killed, imprisoned and tortured people who asked for nothing more than honest elections.
The Iranians are still carrying out the repression, lately shutting down the websites of Hashemi Rafsanjani andMohammad Khatami.
Another of the opposition leaders,Mehdi Karroubi, a former head of parliament, has just been placed under house arrest.
It's not really hype and has nothing to do with the US media or Zionism. Try to wish it away by attributing it to that, but it'll still be happening.
It remains an absurd sentence as long as you leave "invariably" in it.
There was nothing funny about the killings of Rachel Corrie or Tristan Anderson, just as there is nothing to celebrate in the killing of the many more innocent people that have lost their lives in the conflict.
I'm sure you would balk at saying that the innocent victims of Palestinian bombing means that efforts to secure a Palestinian state requires that Palestinians invariably will grind down the goyim.
That conclusion would be nonsense just as much as what you've offered.
They should and must.
As well Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, heck
'Amnesty International’s Annual Report of 1999 provides the following statistics relating to torture and ill-treatment: in the sub-Saharan African region, some thirty-three countries provide evidence of torture or ill-treatment by state operatives, and twenty countries are implicated in deaths attributable to torture, ill-treatment, or negligence through inhuman and degrading prison conditions.[6] In the Middle East and North Africa, at least eighteen countries reveal evidence of torture or ill-treatment, and at least eight countries show evidence of deaths resulting from torture, "
link to law.harvard.edu
long list of places that need to reform. Almost all of the countries of the ME but many others as well.
It was only a top 5 list, but there are plenty of others. the Sudanese government ans Bashir deserve a spot
I could trade endless personal insults with you and on some days would happily do so, but would prefer something a little less of a waste of time, Avi.
A moron is someone who doesn't think that one very large group of people in a century-long conflict is dripping with evil and another group is entirely without fault, I guess.
yes, states governed by a single religious POV and imprisoning torturing people who fail to adhere to that POV certainly have no future in the Middle East.
quite a lengthy past, for sure, but freedom of conscience in matters of religion is the future.
annie, I probably would. Western-backed are no better than any other type of torturing dictatorship.
What wedge? Do people on this site try to pretend that the guys I listed are somehow decent people running (or fronting in Ahmedinejad's case) decent regimes?
"Why parents don’t supervise their children’s Internet use is beyond me."
I don't know your parents, but I'm sure that they're good people.
Gladly replace Netanyahu and his rotten cabinet.
and gladly do without the lunacy of your second sentence.
"boot-heels in goyim" is a silly joke.
Why would I care about the settlers? The settlements are bad for everybody.
I care little more for the endless complaints of the settlers than I do for the endless complaints of the wretches that cry that the Israelis should go back to Poland.
and therefore what?
you worried about the feelings of the settlers?
I'm not.
Another Who's Next list.
link to foreignpolicy.com
Assad ? Ahmadinejad? Kaddafi?
"We are now witnessing the emergence of a movement for democracy that transcends narrow nationalism or even pan-Arab nationalism and which embraces universal human values that echo from north to south and east to west."
Andoni must be a seer to draw that from current events.
– Marty Peretz
MY SNARK: . . WELCOME TO ISRAEL ~ “The Land Of Delusions”
--------------------------------------
Peretz is delusional wherever he is. The physical location of his feet matters not for his head is firmly lodged where usually only gerbils dare to tread.
wow. the bile of Peretz and Chaos.
North Korea????? Where they can't feed anyone outside of the government or army???? Where you can see all the stars at night because there's no electricity in most of the country???
source?
Hamas Charter good enough?
Do I have to remind you that Hamas is little different from the Brothers-- an Islamist party that rejects connections to Al-Qaeda? --Philip Weiss
I could use some reminding. I thought that the MB has rejected violence and that Hamas is still committed to using violence to eradicate Israel.
I thought that Hamas has strong ties to Iran and that Iran sends shipments of arms and money to Hamas. Does the Muslim Brotherhood have ties to Iran and receive arms and money from them?
seafoid February 11, 2011 at 6:58 pm
There won’t ever be another Cast Lead.
---------------
What do you think would happen if Iran starts sending longer -range rockets into Gaza, and one or two of them explode in Israel?
I was referring to the quite cynical words of Ahmadinejad in the quotation that I provided.
Other than that, it surely isn't a day to be cynical. It's rather a good day.
wouldn’t it be amazing if Gaza was free before the WB.
yes, that would be quite amazing.
“Despite all the [West's] complicated and satanic designs … a new Middle East is emerging without the Zionist regime and U.S. interference, a place where the arrogant powers will have no place,” Ahmadinejad told the crowd.
He also urged Egyptian protesters to persevere until there is a regime change. “It’s your right to be free. It’s your right to exercise your will and sovereignty … and choose the type of government and the rulers.”
-----------------------------------------------------------------
next up indeed.
be careful of what you so cynically wish for.
yes. these willy-nilly bombings just aren't the way to go about things. and always somebody claims that the other side started it.
you might not quite be reading too well , eljay, if you're happy to jump to that rather odd conclusion.
What's a "Zio-supremacist" ?
Is that, like, a thing?
They just can’t get it through their heads that Palestinians are human.
The Palestinians are every bit as human as the Israelis and deserve much better than what they have.
Hell, democracy was a wonderful thing for Palestinians until they elected Hamas, and then – WHAM!!! – suddenly it was all terror and Islamofascism and Israeli (aggressor-)victimhood.
- eljay
Yeah, I guess the Israelis were wrong not to wish to deal with a group that calls for the destruction of Israel through violence , won't recognize Israel and won't negotiate a permanent peace deal with Israel.
Very unfair of those Israelis.
Potsherd2
That doesn't seem to have been the choice that the US made this time, so maybe it isn't that choice every time.
So, I guess that if the US says that it supports democracy in Egypt but wishes that Egypt continue to cooperate with Israel, that must mean that the US doesn't support democracy in Egypt.
I'll be using my fat mouth as I please, talknic.
Will you be doing differently?
seafoid,
Israel
pop 7,500,000
GDP $217.1 billion (2010 est.)
Turkey
pop 75,000,000
GDP $1.119 Trillion[2] (2010)
Iran
pop. 74,000,000
GDP $863.5 billion (2010 est.)
so far, Israel hasn't fallen too far behind.
annie, I don't think that you've correctly understood.
The 10,000,000 number isn't about signatures, but is instead a question to Cliff asking him the number of Americans who aren't too ignorant to have an opinion about I/P.
10,000,000 is a great many signatures for a petition. Although 10,000 is not.
About 40 years ago, a petition calling for the diapering of carriage horses in NYC got about 10,000
Cliff
I'll give you all the breaks in the world.
How many of the 300 million Americans know enough about things to be allowed an opinion?
10,000,000????
or
10,000?????
annie, I'm quite sure that a great many Americans support the idea that Israel must end the occupation. I have a rather strong hunch that many of those people don't support passing the Resolution.
"The US Campaign is more than three-quarters toward its goal of 10,000 signatures"
not collecting more than 7,500 signatures from a nation of 300,000,000
(what's that 25 / million?) isn't very impressive.
could be that people in America don't view the UN resolution as being the way to go.
could be that the right-wing Israeli's and their obnoxious government aren't the only obstacle to peace and justice and that the Obama administration wasn't frustrated by the Israeli alone.
Avi says.....
"The issue here is that both Phil and the community to which he belongs know very little about Arabs, whether it’s history, science, philosophy or literature. Thus, Arabs are viewed as unrefined, uncivilized people.
Look at the language that Phil uses to describe Jewish traditions. There is pride in that language, recognition of the accomplishments attributed to ‘Jewish heritage’, ‘Jewish Spirit’, ‘Jewish Thinkers’ etc.. The same cannot be said about Phil’s treatment of Arabs/Muslims for they remain a foreign concept to him, distant, different and sharing nothing in common. "
Awful, awful awful. You're so right!!! Weiss has no business having a normal human existence. He has no right to have learned some things about Jews and approve of any of it.
Even worse, that he doesn't know and approve and applaud all of the things that the Arabs have accomplished in the last half millennium or so.
It's your duty to denounce and deplore his failure to conform to your standard.
Of course, your standard is a single one and you denounce and deplore any Arabs/Muslims who know more of their own culture and accomplishments and approve of any of it more obviously than they know and approve of the culture of Christians, Jews, or Hindus.
Chaos4700
right of return?
Every Palestinian forced out during or shortly after the war that the Palestinians fought in opposition to the creation of Israel should be allowed to become an Israeli citizen and return to land that they can prove that they owned at the time that they left.
And I'm sure that you'll be happy to support the return of the rights and property that other people in the area had stripped from them.
Won't you?
I'm sure that the readers here aren't all kindergarten kids.
And I'm glad that a kid such as yourself thinks that he should call people that he doesn't know trolls.
And I'm also sure that in your world, you're really moving on.
Enjoy.
I swallowed hook line and sinker the stories of Egyptian authorities working their hardest to facilitate reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas to create the Government of National Unity and counteract the policy of Israel to divide the West Bank and Gaza into the two smaller, weaker and more pliable non state identities.
The stories are true. The Egyptians wish for the reconciliation and want Hamas to be more moderate, cease calling for the destruction of Israel, and agree to accept a Palestinian state that lives peacefully alongside the Israelis.
Actually, dbroncos, the US only needs oil from the Middle East. Other than that, our notions of democracy are nowhere echoed by any of the Gulf States, Iran, or any of the other Arab nations.
Israel is far closer to our POV, while very different, than the rather very far from democratic rest of the pack. Should our allies stop needing the oil from the Gulf, it would be an interesting opportunity for us.
"One would have be an absolute idiot to believe that the USA’s relationship with the Arab and Muslim world would not be markedly better if Uncle Sucker hasn’t aided and abetted, and sometimes joined in the commission of, the Israeli government’s crimes against the native Palestinians" ----Woody Tanaka
of course, one would be rather more idiotic to overlook that the Arab world and the Palestinians have committed endless crimes themselves.
One might be tempted to say that the Arab and Muslim world would have a better relationship with the United States had they acted differently.
There is no archeological record that supports Israel’s existence in its current form.
that's a sentence to savor. good one, Avi
hop, satire and disrespect for government is an old and well-established facet of life throughout the Middle East. you're off-base here, possibly confused by the autocratic governments that stifle free speech, but off-base.
Ilan Pappe
beating it in public yet again.
--The people who go into reporting for big blue-state institutions are liberals, almost all Democrats. They’re not going on to the Supreme Court, they have to go somewhere.---
are these people overrepresented in the bar-louting profession?