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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
BILD newspaper's exclusive interview with Shimon Peres:
link to bild.de
Title: Unfinished peace is better than complete war
Excerpt:
BILD: Do you still consider nuclear weapons the biggest threat to the region?
Peres: Nuclear weapons in the hands of the wrong people - yes.
BILD: How can the enormous differences between Israelis and Palestinians be settled? (Note: The existence of Palestinian Israelis is ignored by the German media!)
Peres: I don't believe that there are still big differences. A start was already made with the Palestinian Authority. We agreed on a common solution, which is a two-state solution - an Israeli state and a Palestinian state. Both states will be good neighbours and cooperate with each other. The problems are minimal. The state of uncertainty between a proper beginning and a proper solution still causes divergences of opinion - but these can be bridged. The actual problem is not the different opinion but rather the scepticism. The people simply don't believe that a solution is possible. And it is so easy to convince people that something is difficult. For whatever reason, you appear more reputable to people if you are pessimistic instead of optimistic. However, history proves that ultimately optimism has always won - not pessimism.
(own translation)
I long for the day when current leaders have the courage to say what must be said about zionist criminal acts and then actually do something about it.
Exactly! Former US President Jimmy Carter, former West German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt - where are the incumbents?
Here's a very interesting interview that I just read:
British Girls in the Third Reich: 'We Had the Time of Our Lives'
link to spiegel.de
SPIEGEL ONLINE: What did they tell you?
Johnson: They said: "We had the best time of our lives." They felt fantastic being in Germany during the Third Reich. "It was the highlight of my life," one told me. To them, it was a rich experience, because England was very stuffy at that time -- lots of unemployment, terrible food and nasty weather. In Bavaria they had the crisp mountain air, a healthy life, the opera, the mountains and handsome Germans in uniform. They couldn't believe their luck! No chaperons, no parents. They had everything, including sex.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Were they aware of the dangers posed by the Nazis?
Johnson: They weren't aware of anything at all. They would see a sign at a swimming pool saying "No Jews," and they'd think: "What is a Jew?" They didn't know any Jews. Also, they were upper-middle class English girls, so almost by definition their fathers were probably quite anti-Semitic. It was an anti-Semitic time, not only in Germany. We had the rise of the far right, the brown shirts, and Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Fascists. My mother-in-law's family was typical of aristocratic attitudes of this period. They were very pro-German. My mother-in-law's father was chairman of the Anglo-German Alliance, which was set up to bring the two countries closer together. He would make speeches in the House of Lords saying Hitler is a sound chap.
Great article!
GL who level criticisms against liberal Zionists (who he referred to as “the worst”)
I just found Omar Barghouti's comments about "left-wing Zionists":
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
And, by the way, I am a woman.
You said Beinart knew Zionism was wrong.
Beinart claims to be a liberal. Liberals support equal rights and reject inequality as unjust. Beinart stated that Zionism requires inequality. Conclusion: Beinart knows that Zionism is unjust.
he does not impose on everybody a requirement that their society be exactly like the United States
There's a huge difference between:
1) not imposing equality (-> passive)
2) supporting inequality (-> active)
US politicians and people like Beinart actively advocate inequality in Israel.
people like GL who level criticisms against liberal Zionists while living in a country with a neo-Nazi problem that he underplays.
I wasn't downplaying neo-Nazism in Germany. The problem is that the German media and politicians constantly exaggerate the threat of neo-Nazism. They make it look like there's a huge racism problem in Germany when actually the racists are just a tiny fringe group. The German media and politicians condemn ethnic nationalism in Germany while supporting ethnic nationalism in Israel. That's the terrible double standard. You have this double standard, too.
Here's the result of an online poll from last July.
link to ftd.de
Question: The intelligence service warns against growing violence by the
right-wing scene. This ...
leaves me cold -> 50%
bothers me -> 36%
scares me -> 14%
4,024 votes
This result shows that half of Germans are fed up with the exaggerated media reports about right-wing extremism and don't take them seriously anymore.
GL who level criticisms against liberal Zionists (who he referred to as “the worst”)
Recently, I watched a talk by Omar Barghouti. He, too, said that "liberal Zionists" are worse than right-wing Zionists, because right-wing Zionists are at least honest about their intentions and don't pretend to care about Palestinians.
German Lefty writes “those people” and you say nothing.
What's wrong with saying "those people"? Eljay understood that I was talking about "liberal Zionists". These are people with a certain political view, not with a certain nationality.
You didn't clarify what you mean by "you people".
No, he doesn’t, and that isn’t what he wrote.
Beinart wrote in 2010:
"I'm not asking it to allow Palestinians who were forced out (or fled) in 1948 to return to their homes. I'm not even asking it to allow full, equal citizenship to Arab Israelis, since that would require Israel no longer being a Jewish state. I'm actually pretty willing to compromise my liberalism for Israel's security and for its status as a Jewish state."
link to theatlantic.com
This clearly shows that he knows that Zionism is incompatible with equal rights.
Walk a mile in his shoes, and then judge.
You mean racist shoes? No, thanks! Besides, Germans don't use "mile" as measuring unit.
Your country has a neo-Nazi problem.
neo-Nazis in Germany = 1%
Zionists in Israel = at least 75%
You people are the worst.
Who are "you people"? Equal rights supporters?
If Peter Beinart is correct, a few of the Club Z video kids will become so conflicted after their Birthright Israel trip, that they will check their Zionism instead
Why didn't Peter Beinart "check his Zionism" yet? He knows that Zionism is wrong but supports it nonetheless. Those people are the worst.
I think the “EU definition” was produced as a proposal and it was never adopted for official purposes.
The working definition has been adopted, used, or recommended by a number of European and other organisations which monitor and combat hate crimes, including the OSCE, the Council of Europe's European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI), the UK's All-Party Parliamentary Group Against Antisemitism, and the National Union of Students in the UK.
the most nonsensical and self-debasing pursuit of support from the pro-Israel crowd in the USA
Yes. That's precisely what I thought when I watched his speech. I have seen Cory Booker a few times on MSNBC and some entertainment shows. He seemed rather likeable. Now, I have a totally different impression of him.
Cory Booker: "What is this large black man doing here?"
Huh? Large black men can't be Jewish?
@ coffee
Finkelstein (rightly) rejects a German’s telling him how to discuss the Holocaust. But he ought to follow his own advice, show some humility and stop telling Palestinians how to discuss Zionism.
Oh, I very much disagree with you on that. Rejecting a person's statement because of the person's nationality? Don't you think that's kind of "racist"? Judge a statement by its content, not by the nationality of the speaker. Rejecting the student's statement because she's German is majorly unfair. However, her statement should be rejected simply because it's stupid.
In my view, Finkelstein's anti-German sentiment makes him lose credibility. The same applies to his comments on Zionism and BDS.
Finkelstein offered Palestinians conditional solidarity at best.
Well, people are free to offer as much solidarity as they want. Unconditional solidarity is dangerous anyway. For example, the USA and Germany declared pretty much unconditional solidarity with "the Jews" and their "Jewish state" because of the Holocaust. This has very bad consequences for Palestinians. That's why I am reluctant to declare unconditional solidarity with Palestinians, because I fear that they could develop their own version of ethnic nationalism.
Based on Obsidian’s past postings about his Russian father’s activities (including his celebration of the torturing of my civilian German relatives by Russian partisans) I would think that Obsidian agrees with Norman Finkelstein.
From what you've said, Obsidian seems to approve of the torture of innocent civilians, whereas he condemn self-defense against foreign occupiers.
Your link says "Postscript to German edition of The Rise and Fall of Palestine".
In the preface to his book Image and Reality, German Edition, Norm said that he, ‘rejoiced in the death of occupiers, including Americans’.
Here's the German preface: link to salamshalom-ev.de
Tell me where he wrote what you claimed.
I already watched this interview a while ago. Finkelstein sounds strange.
They mention Gaza or Hezbollah to me and I’m supposed to react like they said “child abuse”.
And do you tell them your views on Zionism? How do they react?
Wonderful name, but do you at least know where it originated?
That's irrelevant.
what makes you believe that ME and Europe are even remotely comparable? Maybe Eurocentrism?
Nope. I just pointed out certain similarities.
So why do they attack civilians in Israeli cities with bombs and missiles?
Most Israeli citizens served in the army. So, they aren't really civilians. Almost all Jewish Israelis are Zionists. The Zionist state was built on stolen Palestinian land. Palestinians who fire rockets into Israel just try to free their own land from the Zionist regime.
@ Obsidian
The fact that Breaking the Silence, and similar groups, operate at all shows me that Israeli society is strong and healthy and can tolerate intense and public scrutiny and self criticism.
Your reasoning is totally false. The fact that groups like "Breaking the Silence" or "Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions" are necessary at all shows how terribly criminal Israel is. Without the illegal occupation and illegal house demolitions these groups wouldn't exist.
I’ve tried to dialogue with you but I see that it’s not working.
Nope. It's me who tried to have a dialogue with you. However, you didn't answer my questions. See here:
link to mondoweiss.net
This article shows that Israeli Jews are taught that Palestinians are inferior:
Nurit Peled-Elhanan of Hebrew University says Israeli school textbooks depict Palestinians as 'terrorists, refugees and primitive farmers'
link to guardian.co.uk
the separation barrier, which originally had and still has the purpose of preventing terrorist attacks coming from the Palestinian territories.
You must be kidding.
The purpose of the Berlin Wall was to keep the indigenous people in.
The purpose of the West Bank Wall is to keep the indigenous people out.
Building a wall is a sign of oppression and shows a lack of democracy. The country that built the wall has to go away. Palestine must be reunited, just like Germany was reunited.
what are checkpoints compared to the terror war engaged by Palestinian extremists against the Israeli population?
Palestinians just defend themselves against the ongoing Zionist landgrab.
Israel has no right to build anything in Palestine.
Thank you Breaking the Silence.
Oh, this statement of yours surprises me. I assumed that you would accuse these women of lying. If you understand that West Bank Palestinians are not treated equally, then why don't you understand that Israeli Palestinians are not treated equally either? Israeli Jews are taught that Palestinians are subhumans, not just those in the West Bank or Gaza but ALL Palestinians.
maybe in germany it’s not ever used that way
Yes.
In the documentary "Defamation", an Israeli girl said something like, "Jews were killed by the Nazis only because of their nationality." That statement didn't make any sense to me, because clearly German Jews were NOT killed because they were German. Now I know that Zionists use "nationality" synonymously with ethnicity. Obviously they do this to justify the existence of a "Jewish state". As you are not a Zionist, I am surprised that you have adopted their usage.
The real problem here is that Taxi keeps twisting my words. She intentionally misunderstands me in order to have something to complain about. She tries to debunk statements that I have never actually made.
@ Citizen
avoiding the dictatorial “should not” or “must not.” To some ears this conjures up the bossy Nazi with the gun.
I see. However, I would think that the commenters here already know that I am anti-Nazi and anti-gun.
Besides, no German would associate this phrasing with Nazism. What makes the difference is the tone. Only if you shout something in a very aggressive and commanding tone with a rolling R, then people might think of Hitler. Otherwise, it's just ordinary communication.
@ Cliff, eljay, ziusudra, Citizen, seafoid, American
Thanks everyone for your support!
@ Annie
when you say you are not ethnically german
I did not say that I am not ethnically German.
nationality is different than citizenship too.
There's civic nationalism (e.g. in Germany) and ethnic nationalism (e.g. in Israel). In Germany, the words "citizenship" and "nationality" are synonymous.
@ Annie
for whatever reason you've chosen to place your nationality and ethnicity center stage
When I post on non-German-language websites, I usually say that I am from Germany in order to indicate that I am not a native speaker. Foreigners who make comments on German websites often state where they are from, too. I think that it's just useful to know.
simultaneously saying things like "Germans tend to be more direct than others" along with "Germans are not all the same."
That's not a contradiction.
a nationality is part of an ethnicity. maybe you should research the definition of ethnicity.
Citizenship and ethnicity are two different things. Only ethnocracies, like Nazi Germany and Israel, want these two words to have the same meaning. Besides, Taxi didn't merely say that I am "ethnically German". Taxi stated that I am "from the other master race". However, "German" is neither a master race nor a race.
If my user name had been "Aryan Righty" or something like that, then Taxi's comment would have been justified. As this is not the case, Taxi's comment is totally uncalled for and majorly insulting. More than half a century after the end of Nazi Germany, it must be possible for Germans to say they are German without hearing such dumb "master race" remarks.
Goodbye!
The German Basic Law defines "Germans" as people with German citizenship. Besides, it is important to use different words for citizenship and ethnicity. Otherwise, Zionists will say stuff like, "Germans have a German state. Jews deserve a Jewish state."
If the nationality of people from Germany were “German” and the country changed its name to Bavaria, would this be a problem?
You must be kidding. The people of 15 federal states would be totally outraged and condemn the Bavarians for this scandalously narcissistic proposal of renaming Germany after their federal state.
The nationality would remain the same, and it would still apply to everyone equally.
No, that wouldn't work.
people from the country of Bavaria = Germans
people from the federal state of Bavaria = Bavarians
This would lead to very many misunderstandings with foreigners. And non-Bavarian Germans would be totally pissed about the special status of Bavarians.
Or perhaps not so falsely. If they’re Jewish, they are of Jewish nationality and therefore citizens of Israel.
WHAT? So, German Jews would suddenly be deprived of their German citizenship and become citizens of Israel against their will?
If the country were called “NewCountry” and the bureaucratic nationality were atheist, all citizens would be bureaucratically atheist and equal.
As an actual atheist, I would object to other people's creation of the nationality "atheist", because I could be mistaken for a citizen of that foreign state whenever I tell someone that I am an atheist.
But atheists don’t claim that they/we are a nation or an ethnicity or a culture or a people, so there’s no reason for atheism to ever have to become or ever want to become a nationality.
Right, but that's not the point. Not all Jews view Jews as a people either. Right now, Israel already calls itself the "Jewish state" against the will of many non-Israeli Jews. If Israel makes "Jewish" the official nationality, then this would happen against the will of many non-Israeli Jews, too. German Jews or US Jews would be mistaken for citizens of Israel whenever they say that they are Jewish.
Israel currently exists. Palestine does not exist yet.
Interesting. Your reason for having an Israeli state is that it already exists. Your reason for having a Palestinian state is that it doesn't exist yet. Don't you see a contradiction here?
Once the two states are established, their citizens can decide whether or not they would prefer to be united in a single secular, democratic and egalitarian state.
That's the wrong order. It's one state already with a mixed population and an intertwined economy. This state is controlled by the Israeli government. All Palestinians there must be given equal rights. Once they have these rights, they can decide democratically whether they want to keep the one state or create two separate states. Besides, Jewish Israelis should not have a say in this particular decision, because they are illegal residents of Palestine and land thiefs.
@ Taxi
"German" refers to my citizenship, which has nothing to do with my ethnicity. I know what a pedant is and I like the way I am.
Or make the country Israel and the bureaucratic nationality Jewish.
That's a bad idea! Imagine the official nationality of people from Germany were "Aryan" instead of "German". That just doesn't go together.
That would be something for “the Jews” to deal with.
This would lead to misunderstandings all the time. And non-Israeli Jews would still be falsely associated with that country. If there were a country that wanted to call itself "Atheistan", I would object to this idea, too.
What are your reasons for not supporting a one-state solution? Don't you think that a joint state can be partially culturally Jewish, too?
So at the risk of mentioning the war, when in those dire Hollywood movies the German guard shouts “Raus! Raus!” what he’s really saying is
I don't know what movies you talk about. I didn't watch any such film. Also, you mix up past and present, which I really don't appreciate. Besides, guards are more likely to give commands than their opinion, regardless of their citizenship. Furthermore, I explicitly stated that it's my way of expressing my opinion. Germans are not all the same.
German lefty is a pedant from the ‘other’ master race.
Yes, I am a pedant. And I also am what Hitler would call "Aryan". However, I don't consider it a master race. Therefore, I don't appreciate references to my ethnicity. My ethnicity is simply irrelevant.
Make Jewish a bureaucratic nationality – like German and Canadian and Australian. That way, Israel will always be Jewish, and everyone within it will be exactly equal to everyone else.
Yes, but that would be problematic, too. First of all, you would have to rename Israel "Jewland" to make it match the demonym "Jew", similar to "Finland" and "Finn" or "Deutschland" and "Deutscher". Also, the word "Jew" would still have a double meaning, i.e. a member of a religious group and a citizen of a country. No other demonym has such a double meaning. If you want Israel to be a secular state, then its citizens can't have the same name as the members of a certain religious group.
I agree, American.
What’s “strange” hon is you got no funny bone.
You've never seen one of my bones, so how would you know? But at least you called me "hon", not "hun".
you must stop telling others what they must do or say.
Take your own advice and stop telling me that I must stop telling others... Besides, Germans tend to be more direct than others. So, when I say things like "should not" or "must not", then that's just my way of saying "In my opinion, it would be better if...".
I have to confess that every time I refer to Israel as “the Jewish State” I’m confusing “Jewish” with “Zionist”.
I usually put "Jewish state" in quotation marks to show that I disapprove of that label.
@ eljay
I think it could if Jewish culture in Israel were presented not as a symbol of oppression and supremacism
What I mean is that if you want Israel to remain "culturally Jewish", then non-Jewish Israelis would still be a demographic threat.
If you want both the Israeli and the Palestinian state to be secular, then this means that neither state has a specific religious culture. In that case, you might as well have ONE secular state.
Israel/Palestine as secular, democratic and egalitarian state [...] This would permit additional refugees to claim citizenship, as well as descendants of Israelis and any other people originally from the geographical region defined by Partition. Essentially the same idea would apply on the Palestine side of the border.
If you want all these rules to be applied to both states equally, then why not have a joint state?
I remember some economist saying that Israel's economy and the economy of the Palestinian territories are so intertwined that they can't be separated anymore. Therefore, even a two-state solution would have to include an economic union. So, why not have one state?
Hope German Lefty doesn’t ask me what a lark is.
Why would I do that? You have strange ideas.
@ Andreas Schlüter
As a German fully aware of the German historical guilt...
Does that mean you feel guilty and believe in a historical responsibility? I don't.
What's your opinion on the new German party "Neue Mitte" (New Centre)?
This party:
- supports a one-state solution with equal rights for all and a full right of return for all Palestinian refugees
- says that Germany has "a special responsibility for entire Palestine"
- says that Germany has "no special responsibility for Israel's 'security'"
link to neue-mitte.net
(See: 1. Grundsätze, 3.5. Nahostkonflikt)
Note: In the document, the word "security" is put in quotation marks to indicate that what Israel does is not actually self-defence.
You’ll end up with three Gaza’s.
Well said. Creepy image.
It’s the use of ‘Jew’ as an adjective – not that it’s about grammar. It’s about the contemptuous tone of saying ‘Jew’ something.
Thanks, Cliff. That's what I assumed.
Anyway, you have to consider that a lot of commenters are not native English speakers. We might accidentally use the word "Jew" as adjective, with no ill intent. I remember one case in which that happened.
However, no commenter here must confuse "Jewish" and "Zionist".
If someone said ‘Jew rejection’ they would be banned.
Would you please tell me what is meant by "Jew rejection"?
regardless of what they would do, do you have any idea how many of that 67% went ahead and voted for politicians and a government that would not ever approve of a palestinian state?
From the article:
"The findings showed that Labor and Hatnua voters are most likely to support the proposal (92%), followed closely by Yesh Atid voters (88%) and Meretz (77%). Leading in terms of the percentage of opponents, among the large parties, are Jewish Home (43%), followed by Shas (41%), United Torah Judaism (29%) and Likud-Beytenu (25%).
Still, even on the right, there appears to be a majority in favor of a peace deal, including 57% among Likud voters, and even 53% among the constituency of Yesh Atid, whose leader, Naftali Bennett, is a champion of the unilateral annexation of parts of the West Bank."
What I wanted to express with the linked article is that although most Israelis support a two-state solution, it's only a two-state solution with very unfair conditions that perpetuate the oppression of Palestinians. In other words: It's not an actual solution.
It's not sufficient to say that most Israelis support a peace agreement. The conditions of that agreement are crucial. A peace deal with unfair conditions is NO peace deal.
@ eljay
You know that I like you, but I have some questions about your two-state solution:
What about the Law of Return for Jews? Would it be kept or abolished? What about Israel's flag and anthem? Why not grant a right of return AND compensation? Right of return OR compensation sounds like you want to bribe Palestinians into perpetual exile. Would the right of return include all descendants of refugees (as in the German right of return)? Don't you think that it's unfavourable to have a Palestinian state that is divided into Gaza and the West Bank with some other country inbetween? Do you think that a non-Zionist Israel can remain “culturally Jewish” in the long term? I don't think so. Therefore, why not opt for a one-state solution right away?
67% of Israelis say they would support a two-state solution with the following conditions:
- Two states: Israel the state of the Jewish people and Palestine the state of the Palestinian people.
- Palestinian refugees will have a right to return only to the new state of Palestine.
- The Palestinian state will be demilitarized, without an army.
- Jewish neighborhoods of Jerusalem will come under Israeli sovereignty and Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian sovereignty.
- The Old City within the walls will be without sovereignty and will be jointly administered by the United States, Israel, and the Palestinians. The Holy Places will be under the same religious supervision as current arrangements (for example, the Western Wall will be under Israeli supervision and responsibility).
- Borders will be based on the 1967 lines and will include land swaps equal in size that will take into consideration Israel’s security needs and will maintain the large settlement blocs under Israeli sovereignty.
link to timesofisrael.com
Ilan Pappe explains why a two-state soltuion is a Zionist solution:
link to youtube.com
Lots of people, believe it or not, are more attacted by other parts of the female body than boobs.
Really? That's hard to believe. I am a boob person.
However, these photos are a turnoff to me because of the guns and the Zionism.
Citizen, I just googled "graffiti bomb Israel" and found this:
link to urbanartcore.eu
link to youtube.com
The commenters there say that it's a fake.
"we used actors, The colors added in editing and photographed on a back road without interrupting traffic. Oh, also the sound of the shot we added in editing."
Graffiti bombe Vs Polizei Roboter
In general, I don't find such a prank funny at all. However, in Israel it's a non-violent way to get back at the Zionists. By the way, why does this video have a German title?
I don't think the nudity is the real reason for the new policy (Heck, Israel could use racy photos to pornwash its image as cruel occupier; it wouldn't be the first time). I bet the new policy reflects concerns about the unbridled racism that Israeli soldiers have often expressed in social media.
I agree. Besides, I don't find the photos racy. You don't even see a boob.
The Jewish mother stereotype in “The Big Bang Theory” is a pretty well-known one in the US
I see. I didn't know this. The only stereotypes I have heard of are: greedy, power-hungry, deceitful, being good with money, complaining about the Holocaust all the time, hating Palestinians, accusing everyone who dares to disagree with them of anti-Semitism. Howard's mother is or does none of these things. Therefore, I find her character rather refreshing in some weird way.
Of course that whole show is full of stereotypes from top to bottom
Here were have Hophmi's double standard. He only complained about the portrayal of the Jewish stereotypes, not about any other.
When in Bosnia, a well meaning foreign group wanted to put up a plaque in a sport stadium commemorating the women and girls who were murdered and raped in that site. Bosnian women removed the plaque saying it was not their wish to be nurtured with a victim self-identity, but instead to be a recovered and strong people.
Great story, Ellen.
Have you ever lived in the United States?
No, I didn't, Hophmi. How is that relevant?
Have you ever watched the Big Bang Theory?
Yes, of course. It's one of my favourite shows.
The Jewishness of Howard's mother and her annoying behaviour have nothing to do with each other.
You personally? None.
Then why did you say "THE Germans"? The wording "THE Germans" includes present-day generations.
your ancestors are responsible for many
How can you say this? You don't know anything about my ancestors.
Most modern Germans I know feel ashamed to have that legacy, as they should.
I highly doubt that. What kind of people did you talk to? Did they actually say that they are "ashamed"? Or did they just state that the Holocaust is a terrible part of German history? That's not the same as being ashamed. My assumption is that you either only talked to old people or misunderstood the people. It's simply idiotic to be ashamed of something that happened before you were even born.
For these reasons, Germany has avoided outward demonstrations of patriotism since the war
Nope. According to that logic, the USA would have to avoid outward demonstrations of patriotism, too. However, US citizens are the most patriotic people on the planet. Despite all the crimes that the USA has committed since its founding.
Germans have a different definition of patriotism than US citizens. We are emotionally attached to our country, but we refuse to be slaves to our country. Mass murder of innocent foreigners is not considered patriotic. Also, we don't worship our flag or anthem.
Germany has an ultranationalist problem these days.
Oh, please! That's just 1% of the population.
debts do not always end because a relative dies; sometimes the family members have to take care it out of their inheritance.
Every successor has the right to reject the inheritance.
your attitude is not one I’ve found among many Germans I’ve met, and I hope it is not indicative of how most Germans think.
Here's a survey from 2005: link to netzeitung.de
Question: Do you think that nowadays we still need to feel guilty about Auschwitz?
No. -> 74 %
Yes. -> 20 %
I don't know. -> 6 %
A show with a stereotypical Jewish character, and a vicious stereotype of a Jewish mother.
These are merely individual characters. What makes you think that these are stereotypes?
Such a brave soldier you are.
I am a pacifist, not a soldier.
Since you oppose affirmative action and riducule gay people for expressing their pride, aren’t you actually German Righty?
Affirmative action is race-based or gender-based discrimination. As left-winger, I oppose such discrimination. Being proud of something that you didn't choose is ridiculous. Should I be proud to be a woman?
The Germans are responsible for wiping out millions of lives, and their successive generations.
The Germans? Really? Tell me, hophmi: How many of these lives did I wipe out?
Nazi has become ‘slang’ for bullying, oppressive and hateful people
Yes, I know there are words such as "grammar Nazi", "lawn Nazi", "soup Nazi" and "health Nazi".
On the one hand, people in the USA often downplay Nazism by misusing the word "Nazi" and applying it to any person they consider annoying. On the other hand, if you point out that Zionism is like Nazism, then these people get angry and claim that this analogy belittles the Holocaust. Double standard!
@ Naftush
Read my comment:
link to mondoweiss.net
The Holocaust is over, the Nakba is not.
As a German you might feel that your parents or grandparents paid too much. As a Jew, I don’t see it that way.
You are putting words into my mouth. I have never said that my ancestors paid too much. However, neither my grandparents nor my parents had anything to do with the Holocaust or WWII. Personally, I don't care about how much money previous generations paid. That's history. What matters to me is that present-day generations shouldn't have to pay for crimes they didn't commit.
In March, I already listed Germany’s restitution payments since 2005 for you:
link to mondoweiss.net
The compensation that Germany paid out was measly and selective.
You must be kidding! Germany has been paying all the time and is still paying. See here: link to spiegel.de
And it is ironic for an antiZionist to cite money paid to the state of Israel as compensation to consider this adequate compensation.
Can't you read? I didn't talk about compensation to Israel.
You wish to dismantle Israel and with it whatever compensation was made by the Germany of Adenauer. That is compensation that you wish to undo, with what will you replace it?
What are you talking about? Dismantling Israel won't destroy any valuables that Germany gave to Israel or that Israel bought from German money. These valuables can be used or sold for the benefit of reunited Palestine. And, of course, the Jewish Israelis will be citizens of this new state, too.
Besides, Jewish Israelis are the ones who should pay compensation now ... to the Palestinian victims.
The Jews killed in Auschwitz, Treblinka and Babi Yar were all compensated for?
Germany has paid so much money over the decades that I can't even count it. Besides, the actual question must be: Why should I pay for a crime that I didn't commit?
Example: Your father murdered someone and is sentenced to 20 years in prison. He dies after 5 years of imprisonment. Are you, as his son, sent to prison for 15 years in order to complete his sentence? No, of course not. The punishment ends with the death of the perpetrator(s).
you’re being reductive and insensitive about spiritual historical issues.
Phil, I think it's pointless to obsess about past injustice*, because it can't be undone. Instead, we should focus on present injustice, because this injustice can still be stopped. Sadly, the Holocaust is misused to justify or distract from the Nakba. The Holocaust has become a Zionist tool. As long as that's the case, commemorating the Holocaust feels like a contribution to Zionist crimes to me. I will start commemorating the Holocaust when I see the President and Prime Minister of Israel commemorating the Nakba.
If Zionism and Zionist crimes didn't exist, I would probably be much less upset about Hophmi's paranoia regarding a second Holocaust.
* provided that there already was acknowledgement and compensation
I agree with Hophmi and find your Get past it nostrum as offensive as Hillary Clinton’s prescription to Palestinians re the right of return, Get past it.
Phil, that's NOT the same at all. The Holocaust has been over for many decades and Germany made amends for it. That's why it makes sense to ask Jews to get over it, stop harping on about it and start living in the present. The Nakba, however, is not over yet. Instead of making amends, Israel is undiscerning and continues to oppress and dispossess Palestinians. You can't expect someone to get over a crime as long as it's still going on.
Seamus Heaney the poet said it takes several generations to get past a large trauma.
But that's only because the victims tend to instill the victimhood into their children and grandchildren. These descendants then become paranoid and feel sorry for themselves. In case of the Holocaust, this is done in order to justify Zionism. Without this Zionist propaganda, Hophmi wouldn't worry about a second Holocaust all the time.
No sense of humor, wants to control speech…so tempting.
If you consider these two things sufficient to call someone a Nazi, then that's a total belittlement of Nazism. You are insufferable. Don't talk to me again.
Besides, I do have a sense of humour, but mass murder and racism just aren't funny. Asking you to show common decency and to refrain from making insulting, baseless accusations is not controlling speech.
I’m more offended by the fact it wasn’t funny than by the Holocaust reference.
It's not funny, precisely because of the Holocaust reference.
When I say things like that it is a joke, not an assertion I can defend
So, you call people "Nazi" as a joke!? That's not even remotely funny. Don't you know how incredibly insulting that label is? If you don't mean it and can't prove it, then don't say it.
Imagine you have an argument with someone. Suddenly, the other person says to you, "I wish you people had all died in the Holocaust." Then he adds, "Just kidding." Would you find that funny?
I’ve often noticed over the years in Hollywood sitcoms and movies that Jewish characters tend to make casual yet venomous jokes about white, Christian, European etc. characters to somehow reinforce the sense of guilt for the Holocaust that the latter must all forever harbor.
Your post reminded me of this episode of "The Big Bang Theory" (at 2:30):
link to youtube.com
Leonard: [...] Howard [...], you’re the first one of us to get married. We have to do something special.
Sheldon: You know Germans have an interesting pre-wedding custom.
Howard: Well, it’s probably not for me.
It was translated like that into German, too. No changes were made.
Here's a thread in which Holocaust jokes are discussed:
link to tv.com
- "Holocaust jokes are pretty weak, I swear i watch over 20 shows and every single one of them has to mention it like it's obligation, i mean sure it was awful but the writers should stop acting like they went through it and make jokes about it"
- "I only remember one joke from a past episode that would qualify (Howard referring to Bernadette's [Polish] parents as 'Adolf and Eva')."
My own Nazi comments usually come as a result of dealing with some office manager or something who is drunk on power, or some loudmouth who is bullying a waitress or cashier…Although I refer to most racists or homophobes as Nazis also.
Oh, please don't misuse the "Nazi" label. That's very inappropriate.
Chuck Lorre is also a fabulously successful Hollywood sitcom producer-- Two and a Half Men, the Big Bang Theory. Lorre airs mini-essays at the end of his shows, his famous "vanity cards" of a couple of hundred words, broadcast nationally for a half second or so at the end of a show.
That's interesting. I watch "Two and a Half Men" and "The Big Bang Theory", but here in Germany we don't see these "vanity cards" at the end of the shows.
Phil, if you talk about yourself and Chuck Lorre as “us” and are concerned about how “we” use “our” power simply because you are both Jewish-then you are delusional.
I wouldn't say "delusional". However, I very much disapprove of this "we" and "us", too. When Jews keep talking about "us Jews", then non-Jews will adopt this choice of words and start saying "you Jews".
It stands as historically vile pan-human victimization. As a Palestinian friend once said, “There is no aristocracy of suffering.”
Right!
American, your link doesn't work. I googled it and here's the correct link:
link to internetjournalofcriminology.com
I would. What else could be a reason?…..Citizen
Ahem, I am not Citizen.
And to the tribal beliefs enshrined in Orthodox Judaism. If Jews are holier, i.e., closer to God, than non-Jews, then an attempt to exterminate them must be especially evil. I strongly suspect that this often underlies the insistence on the uniqueness thesis.
Oh, totally right! Now that you say it, I remember the video link you gave me:
Yaron Yadan on Orthodox Judaism (Part 1)
link to youtube.com
Narcissism?
Yes, but narcissism is connected to Zionism.
In view of the weakness of the uniqueness thesis, the interesting question is obviously why its advocates persist in upholding it.
Yes, that's what I was asking myself, too. Isn't it sufficient to say that the Holocaust was very horrible? Why do certain people insist on putting it at the top of a scale of horribleness?
I would not reduce the matter to one of political expediency.
I would. What else could be a reason?
I just looked you up and saw that you were born many decades after the Holocaust. Therefore, I don't understand why you write "our suffering and persecution during the Holocaust". This wording indicates internalised victimhood.
Also, you shouldn't write "our culpability in the ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people". If you are not a Zionist, you don't bear any blame.
I and my three sibs use to do the lemonade stand thing too
I only know these lemonade stands from US TV series. That's not done in Germany. I think it would be frowned upon as child labour. People would probably assume that the parents are desperate for money and therefore make their children sell stuff.
My sisters also sold pot holders they made
I had to look up "pot holders". The first thing that came to my mind was "bags for marijuana".
philo semitism is not a reduction in jewishness, it’s the enhancement of it.
Yes, I know. It looks like you misunderstood my comment. Perhaps because I didn't express myself properly.
A philo-Semite loves people solely because of their Jewishness. An anti-Semite hates people solely because of their Jewishness. So, in both cases, the only thing that matters is the people's Jewishness. This means that the people are reduced to their Jewishness.
Both, philo-Semites and anti-Semites, throw all Jews into the same pot.
Either: All Jews are great and should be loved.
Or: All Jews are evil and should be hated.
Philo-Semitism and anti-Semitism are two sides of the same coin and therefore equally wrong.
Zionists are either philo-Semites ("Jews are above the law and can steal the Palestinians' land.") or anti-Semites ("Zionism is an easy way to get the Jews out of Europe.").
if you think that represents a hatred of jews, that’s a different argument.
I am confused. Do you agree or disagree with me?
it really isn't the point of view of the producers that Mexicans are inferior or black people or poor people or gay people. We've even taken a couple of shots at Jewish people but it gets complicated because we can't quite decide if the Bluths are Jewish or not. And there's nothing funny about Jewish people. I mean, let's face it. They're beloved.
That sounds really strange. First of all, there is nothing funny about Mexicans, blacks, poor people or gay people either. Second, philo-Semitism is a form of anti-Semitism, because in both cases Jews are reduced to their Jewishness and receive special treatment. Admiration can turn into envy and hatred every quickly.
Did you ever see this ’06 Der Spiegel interview in the German media?
No, I read it just now. Very interesting. However, I watched other interviews of Ahmadinejad, in which he said similar things.
Ahmadinejad stated in the the interview:
"We are saying that if the Holocaust occurred, then Europe must draw the consequences and that it is not Palestine that should pay the price for it. If it did not occur, then the Jews have to go back to where they came from. I believe that the German people today are also prisoners of the Holocaust. Sixty million people died in the Second World War. World War II was a gigantic crime. We condemn it all. We are against bloodshed, regardless of whether a crime was committed against a Muslim or against a Christian or a Jew. But the question is: Why among these 60 million victims are only the Jews the center of attention? [...]
What kind of a role did today’s youth play in World War II? [...] Why should they have feelings of guilt toward Zionists? Why should the costs of the Zionists be paid out of their pockets? If people committed crimes in the past, then they would have to have been tried 60 years ago. End of story! Why must the German people be humiliated today because a group of people committed crimes in the name of the Germans during the course of history? [...] How much longer do you think the German people have to accept being taken hostage by the Zionists?"
Of course, I am not a fan of Ahmadinejad, but what he said there makes sense.
The interviewers claimed: "There was great indignation in Germany when it became known that you might be coming to the soccer world championship. [...] It concerned your remarks about the Holocaust."
That claim is not true. Only a few politicians, the media and, of course, the Central Council of Jews in Germany made a fuss about his possible visit. The people, however, didn't care.
The interviewers further claimed: "There is a sort of collective shame for those deeds done in the German name by our fathers or grandfathers."
Ahmadinejad countered correctly: "Would you also permit an impartial group to ask the German people whether it shares your opinion? No people accepts its own humiliation."
Of course, he's right. The collective shame is imposed upon us by the politicians and the media.
What really upset me was that the interviewers denied the Palestinians' right of return.
Ahmadinejad: "We’re [...] talking about the Palestinians. The Palestinians were there, in Palestine. Now 5 million of them have become refugees. Don’t they have a right to live?"
SPIEGEL: "Mr. President, doesn’t there come a time when one should accept that the world is the way it is and that we must accept the status quo?"
And were Israeli Arabs polled about whether they want to live next door to Jews?
Probably not, because the opinion of non-Jewish Israelis simply doesn't matter in the self-declared "Jewish state".
Besides, that's not comparable. Almost all Jewish Israelis are Zionists. Zionists are the oppressors of Palestinians. Why would Palestinians want to live next door to their oppressors? They would have to fear daily harassment.
Kohn is unredeemed, still suffering the humiliation and bitterness od Exile in Greater New York
Oh, I see. I assumed that he lives in Israel. If he doesn't even live in Israel, then how can he "know" that all the reports on racism in Israel are "not true"? Also, I'd like to know: Is he at least an Israeli or just some US Jew who feels like an Israeli?
I think that for the sake of fairness, one should cite a voice defending Israel from the accusation of racism
OMG, the article is incredible.
"Here come the radical-leftists who grab on to this ‘separation’ as proof of Israel’s racism and segregation. Raising this incident on a flagpole, they tote this ‘racism’ to every corner of the universe as the leftist media, always thirsty for Israel’s blood and forever ready to accuse and degrade the Jewish nation, pounced on this ‘horrible’ incident as if they discovered a treasure trove.
Never mind the legitimate explanation by SuperLand directors that it was done because Arab students have repeatedly spent the time there cursing, hitting, and fighting with the young Jewish visitors to the park. Never mind that the scheduling of separate visitations was specifically done to protect the Jewish children from the abuse, violence and general disturbance caused by the Arab children and their families. Never mind that the Arabs were not banned from the park."
Yeah, right! THE Arabs in THE Jewish nation don't suffer from THE racism.
Kohn's message: "Don't you dare complain about apartheid! Be grateful that we allow you to be here at all!"
I live in Israel.
This phrasing sounds like you are not FROM Israel. So, where do you come from? And why did you move to Israel? Why is a Zionist like you on this website? Do you believe that you can convince any of us? How exactly would you solve the conflict? Just curious.
I see more Palestinians in a day than you see in a year.
What are you trying to tell me with this? Perhaps that if I saw Palestinians as often as you do, I wouldn't want them to have equal rights either?
I just saw a Palestinian family an hour ago playing in the local park with their kids. Not a big deal really.
If you think that having Palestinians in Israel is not a big deal, then I assume you support the Palestinian refugees' right of return!? Do you? Or are Palestinians a "demographic threat"?
Why don’t you come visit Israel and see for yourself.
No, thanks!
1) I value privacy. I don't want my e-mail account or laptop to be searched.
2) I am a bad liar. Therefore, I wouldn't be able to fool an interrogator.
3) Visiting Israel would be bad for my health, because encountering Zionists makes me want to puke.
4) I support BDS and don't want to help Israel's economy by spending money there.
As you are an "Israel expert", which statements in Heyer's article aren't true?
Funny how Der Speigel plays short shrift to German ‘mediterranean looking youths’ assaulting a German rabbi and calling him a ‘shitty Jew’.
First of all, it's "Der Spiegel" (The Mirror). Second, a few hateful attacks by some individuals is not at all the same as many systematic hateful attacks by almost the entire society and politicians.
Besides, considering what the self-declared "Jewish state" does to Palestinians in the name of "the Jewish people", it shouldn't come as a surprise that some less educated people don't understand the difference between Jews and Zionists.
I just looked for a German version of this article on the Spiegel website. Surprise, surprise! I couldn't find one. Clearly, German media don't want us Germans to know about the racism within Israel, "our special and beloved ally". German media like to pretend that everything is fine within the Green Line.
Edit: I just read that "[the] article you are reading originally appeared in German in issue 23/2013 (June 3, 2013) of DER SPIEGEL."
However, there's no German online version of the article.
Obama can use both tracks to defend getting rid of both. One is self image: we don’t do it because that is not who we are. We have to be able to be proud of what we are. A second track is, it is in our self-interest to have moral authority on the world stage.
Oh, yes. Pride and authority. That's what the USA lives off. Take these things away and you get a picture of misery.
What’s happening to Palestinians has to stop simply because it is a horrendous crime against humanity. Framing it as an issue of self interest for Zionists is just one more way of ignoring Palestinians.
I agree.
@ Phil
Barack Obama cannot say we should stop drone strikes because they hurt Pakistanis even if they help us. He has to say, they hurt the U.S.
Yes, but that's only because the USA is even more self-centred than other countries.
In Germany, for example, the main argument against drone strikes would be the respect for international law, human rights and the sovereignty of other countries. Reasoning: If we respect the rights of others, then they will hopefully respect our rights in return, too. That's the basis for a peaceful coexistence.
A politics that is based on people/groups/nations other than your own is always going to be a failure. It is altruistic.
I agree with that. Altruism doesn't exist anyway. Even the idea that you should treat others the way you want to be treated by them is ultimately selfish. However, the USA is just plain selfish and not interested in peaceful coexistence.
Solidarity politics based on voicing what is best for another group fails because You are always more Catholic than the Pope.
I don't understand your statement. Solidarity is not about what's best for others. It has nothing to do with paternalism or subjugation. Solidarity is about a shared identity (e.g. human beings) and shared values (e.g. human rights). It's a good thing.
Polled, Palestinians might actually support the two state solution. I don’t know.
Here's a recent REAL NEWS segment by Shir Hever:
link to youtube.com
At around 10:25, he cites this Palestinian Public Opinion Poll from December 2012:
link to pcpsr.org
Here’s a sample of they do on departure from Israel–and this was done to a Jewish American straggler from his BirthRight trip
I just read the article and the comments from your link. Particularly the last account by Maria upset me. It looks like Israel wants to scare off absolutely everyone.
I suffered a 6.5 hour interrogation at the border crossing between Taba, Egypt and Eilat. I'll never forget the blonde woman with her sky-blue eye shadow screaming at me "Where are you goingk?" "Who told you to come here?!" My luggage was searched with everything examined and each scrap of paper read and scrutinized. Then the only person with a name tag, Tal Moran, had me turn on my laptop and log on so he could scour my laptop.
Wow, I assumed that they would be a little less mean at the border crossings.
I think you walked into a buzz saw here.
Well, as long as it's only a figurative buzz saw, I will survive it and can continue providing you with "an interesting perspective on many issues".
I presume you are a German lefty.
Why do you write this? Do you question my Germanness or my left-wingness? I wouldn't mind being mistaken for a foreigner. But don't you dare suggest that I am a right-winger.
At this point these US citizens do not have the protection of the US government.
Yes, and this shows that Israel is the boss, not the USA.
So GL you might not like it but US citizens are privileged, unless they are viewed adversely by Israel. At that point they are no better than the rest of the world’s humanity. We are complaining about discrimination on one very narrow ground that you foreigners are unlikely to appreciate.
I can't quite follow. You seem to think that non-US citizens don't enjoy protection and that all countries, except the USA, belong to the Third World.
As German, I feel properly protected by my country and don't feel discriminated against in other countries. US citizens are not discriminated against either. The problem is that they often have too high expectations and therefore they mistake equal treatment for discrimination.
Wow, you support equal rights! You get a gold star! But it doesn’t exempt you from criticism of your comments. Do you think that you deserve some special privilege that Mr. Diab doesn’t deserve?
Sigh. Tree, you are completely twisting my words again. In your previous post, you complained that I was only talking about minor points of the article. Therefore, I pointed out to you that I am only mentioning the minor points because it should already be known that I agree with the main point of the article, i.e. that Palestinians must be treated equally.
He isn’t assuming what he “deserves”, he’s making assumptions about how they will treat him and he certainly isn’t “justifying” the Israelis treatment of his non-American relatives. Again, its all based on the prejudices of the Israeli security people, not on the prejudices, if any, of the people they are “screening”.
I understand what you mean, but Moe wrote: "And discriminatory treatment towards me, as a Palestinian-American, is not only demeaning; it’s completely disrespectful towards American-Israeli relations. [...] Israel does not respect the citizens of the United States; regardless of the billions of dollars in aid we provide them annually." His disappointment clearly shows that he believes that he deserves to be treated with respect because of his US citizenship. He expects that money translates into respect. As you already wrote, being treated well and being respected are not necessarily the same thing. Every human being can rightly expect to be treated decently. Moe, however, doesn't only want to be treated decently, but he also wants to be treated with respect because of his citizenship and his country's money. That's pretty arrogant.
That certainly wasn’t the theme that I read.
Read the paragraph above the tattoo photo again.
I’m surprised you haven’t heard of the word, given your viewpoint.
The problem is not my point of view. The problem is that you are twisting my words.
Where does Moe Diab, a US citizen of Palestinian heritage fit in your Manichaean scheme?
I don't have a Manichaean scheme. Also, I don't know if Moe is an imperialist or not, because his article only deals with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not with US foreign policy in general. However, he chose the slogan "Never Surrender" as tattoo. And it looks like he wears a military helmet in the photo above. This indicates that he views the military favourably, which I find worrying.
However, I detect that YOU seem to think that Germans are morally superior to Americans.
What on earth makes you think that? You put words into my mouth again. I didn't write anything about Germans or about morality at all.
Yes you did.
No, I didn't. There is no "the" or "all" before "US citizens". That means I was talking about an unspecified number of US citizens. In this case, I meant the majority. Again, let me tell you that survey results prove that most US citizens support imperialism and believe that their country is superior to other countries.
One can take pride in his or her heritage and culture, so long as it is done constructively.
Nonsense. Being proud of a coincidence is silly and not constructive at all.
Does Germany appreciate sweeping generalizations about 1/3 of a billion people?
Are you denying that the USA is hypocritical and has double standards?
nuclear weapons owned by Iran -> evil
nuclear weapons owned by the USA and Israel -> great
ethnic nationalism in Germany -> evil
ethnic nationalism in Israel -> great
murder of thousands of innocent New Yorkers -> terrorism
murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis -> fighting terrorism
we absolutely instill an appreciation for freedom, liberty, justice and equality.
The lack of background checks for gun ownership is not freedom.
Indefinite detention without charges is not liberty.
Death penalty is not justice.
DOMA is not equality.
If Moe appreciates freedom, liberty, justice and equality, then that's despite his US upbringing, not because of it.
In the American vernacular, “could care less” is a common and well-understood, if grammatically incorrect, way of stating “could not care less.”
I know, but that doesn't make it correct. A serious news website should use proper English, not slang.
Wow, project much? I’m sure he meant that since the USA is supposedly the zionist’s entities BFF, that US citizens would be treated by them as befitting that status.
No projecting. I don't expect to be treated with more respect than others.
I can follow Moe's reasoning, but nevertheless it doesn't make any sense. Zionists believe that Jews are superior to and more precious than non-Jews. His US citizenship can't make up for his lack of Jewishness. He and I agree that his assumption was foolish.
So, tell me, do you think that all us US citizens are all imperialists as a genetic matter??
Again, I did not write that "all US citizens" or "the US citizens" are imperialists. Besides, look at the USA's foreign policy and at the surveys regarding the wars.
moe did not ‘compare’ US citizens to Palestinians. he mentioned something at the end, in his opinion, they have in common.
The situation for US citizens and for Palestinians is fundamentally different. US citizens don't surrender? To whom? There is no oppressor.
there’s also a difference between respect and notions of superiority which for some reason you have imposed not only on moe but by extension every american.
I did not say "every US citizen" or "all US citizens".
Look at these survey results, page 9:
link to thechicagocouncil.org
"Percentage who believe the United States has a unique character that makes it the greatest country in the world or who believe every country is unique and the United States is no greater than other nations.
The greatest country in the world -> 70 %
No greater than other nations -> 29 %"
if you had you would know i solicited this personal account from moe who wasn’t really even familiar with this site.
I did read the previous comments, but I don't see how that's relevant to my comments. Are you saying that I shouldn't negatively criticise his article because he wasn't familiar with this site?
so if you want to label him an imperialist, seriously, why would that even warrant a response?
I didn't label HIM an imperialist.
I would think that white Americans can expected to be treated well by the officials of other first world and western nations given the power the USA has over all those countries.
Power and money don't necessarily translate into respect. You can't buy respect. You need to earn it.
ha!
Uh? Annie, if you want me to understand you, then please express yourself differently.
Apart from that, how did you enjoy the play, Mrs. Lincoln?
I know that my negative criticism refers to minor points only. So what? In numerous previous posts, I already made very clear that I oppose Zionism and support equal rights for Palestinians.
Moe wasn’t saying that he thought he was “superior”, which is your implication.
But he expected Israel to treat him LIKE a superior because of his citizenship. That's not much better.
He emphasised his citizenship way too often. The theme of his article was, "Why do they treat me like this? I am a US citizen." Instead, he should have expressed, "Why do they treat me like this? I am a human being."
Why does he bring up his citizenship this often? His citizenship is not particularly relevant here. If he were a citizen of Egypt instead of the USA, then Israel's treatment of him wouldn't be justified either. Racial profiling is unacceptable in any case, regardless of your citizenship.
Besides, if he seriously believes that the USA values freedom, liberty, justice and equality, then he is just as brainwashed as the Israeli teenagers whom he mentions in his article.
What does that make him in your grand Manichean scheme?
If you use words that I need to look up, then please spell them correctly.
But Moe is an American by citizenship and a Palestinian by ethnicity.
My statement was general. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. However, most US citizens supported the Afghanistan war and the Iraq war. They also approve of the drone war. That makes them imperialists.
Both, the USA and Israel, are infected with a feeling of superiority. Comparing US citizens to Palestinians is like comparing perpetrators to victims.
I was raised to be proud of my Palestinian heritage and culture.
Being proud of something that you didn't choose or achieve is idiotic.
My American upbringing instilled in me an appreciation for freedom, liberty, justice and equality.
Good one. The USA appreciates hypocrisy and double standards.
The military said they could care less if I was American.
You mean that the military could NOT care less.
How foolish of me to assume that as an American, Israel would treat me with more respect than my family.
Yes, that was indeed foolish. Of course, racists don't care about citizenship. I guess that US citizens feel superior, too. That's why they believe that they will be treated with more respect than others.
If there is one thing that Americans and Palestinians have in common, it’s that we ‘Never Surrender’.
Don't compare US citizens to Palestinians. The first are imperialists, the latter are victims of imperialism.
Apart from that, it was a good story.
Need Israel OUT of West Bank.
Need Israel OUT of Palestine.
Palestine continues to gain support in Europe.
Yes, but only by the people, not necessarily by the politicians.
By the way, you didn't answer my questions yet.
did you listen to the video?
Yes, it sounds good, particularly the bit that starts at 2:18. However, in general, instrumentals are not for me. Therefore, I can't appreciate them properly.
Well, I am not a fan of symphonies, but I guess it's the gesture that counts.
I just finished watching these videos:
2013 Palestine Solidarity Conference in Germany
Ghada Karmi: link to youtube.com
Shir Hever: link to youtube.com
Ilan Pappe I: link to youtube.com
Ilan Pappe II: link to youtube.com
Asaad Abu Khalil: link to youtube.com
Haneen Naamnih: link to youtube.com
Ranja Madi: link to youtube.com
Jaber Wishah: link to youtube.com
Joseph Massad: link to youtube.com
Yoav Bar: link to youtube.com
Q & A with Ilan Pappe and Jaber Wishah: link to youtube.com
They’ll have to get back to us on whether they have days for Palestinian Israelis in June. There might be an available date on June 31st or 32nd. Until we hear what dates are “available” its probably a big assumption to say they “have days for only Palestinians.”
I agree, tree!
There are two-staters like MJ Rosenberg who can be ethical.
Nope. Everyone who insists on a two-state solution does it for demographic reasons and wants the colonialists to keep ruling over a certain part of Palestine.
Phil means inside the territory that has typically been referred to as the site for the future Palestinian State.
My definitions:
(historic) Palestine = Gaza + Israel + West Bank
(separate) Palestinian State = Gaza + West Bank
@ subconscious
So you’re confirming my interpretation that Weiss is objecting to the 2ss on principle?
I remember that Phil once stated that he still somewhat clings to the two-state solution, because of the UN Partition Plan and because Israel is an internationally accepted state. However, he could have changed his views in the meantime.
What exactly had J St. proposed for the borders inside the Palestinian territories?
link to en.wikipedia.org
"According to the J Street website, the organization seeks to provide a political home for pro-Israel, pro-peace Americans who believe that a 'two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is essential to Israel’s survival as the national home of the Jewish people and as a vibrant democracy.'"
-> You see? J Street only cares about what's good for Israel.
link to jstreet.org
"The outlines of an agreement are by now well-known and widely accepted: Borders based on the 1967 lines with agreed reciprocal land swaps allowing Israeli incorporation of a majority of settlers, as well as Palestinian viability and contiguity; a sharing of Jerusalem that is based on demographic realities establishing the capitals of the two states and allowing freedom of access and respect for all holy sites; robust security arrangements; and an agreed upon resolution of the refugee issue that resettles refugees outside of Israel."
-> Land swaps and denial of the right of return for demographic reasons. You can clearly see that J Street's goal is to preserve the Jewish supremacist state on most of the Palestinian land.
Even if it were to become feasible, he & like-minded BDS’ers would campaign against such an outcome, and the we-don’t-support-2ss-b/c-it’s-not-feasible-anymore pose, that’s ubiquitous on this site, is just a ruse?
As I said, the sole purpose of a two-state solution is to preserve the Jewish supremacist state. Any border that would be set between Israel and the West Bank would have a demographic motive. There's NO other reason for why (historical) Palestine should be divided. That's why a two-state solution is a Zionist solution. As an anti-Zionist, I reject any Zionist solution.
My main problem with the two-state solution is not that it's not feasible but that it's unjust. The two-state solution that Israel envisions includes
- denial of the right of return for Palestinian refugees and
- second-class citizenship or deprivation of citizenship for Palestinian Israelis.
it then morphed into an organization that pushed for fixing borders (inside Palestine)
Why did Phil add "inside Palestine"? Of course, any border between Israel and the West Bank would be inside Palestine, because both Israel and the West Bank are in Palestine.
Great makeover!
I hate how this ad associates the local Jewish community with Israel. What do Jewish US citizens have to do with Israel? What do Muslim Germans have to do with Iran or Egypt?
That was awesome…..wondering if MSM will play this.
Here's Chris Hayes: link to video.msnbc.msn.com
I take it you think all Arab countries are mistaken, in being willing to accept Israel within its 1966 borders?
The borders are NOT the problem. The problem is the Zionist regime. Recognising any Zionist regime within any borders would be a mistake. I am willing to accept an Israeli state in all of historical Palestine provided that this state is non-Zionist, i.e. it gives Palestinians equal rights and grants all Palestinian refugees their right of return.
As much as it would irrationally pain [some] citizens of both nations, Israel and the US should look to Germany as a role model
Well, Israel does have Germany as a role model. It's just not the current German state. Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily rate Germany's influence in the world positively. I think that Germany's positive and negative influences balance each other. Therefore, I would give Germany a neutral rating.
Here's the detailed report: link to worldpublicopinion.org
Views of the USA's influence: page 17
Views of Germany's influence: page 19
Views of Israel’s influence: page 29
"The USA is the only Western country surveyed holding favourable views of Israel, and the only country in the survey with a majority of positive ratings (51%, stable).
In the EU countries surveyed, views of Israeli influence are all strongly negative and have either hardened further or remained stable.
Positive views have dropped eight points in Germany over the past year, down to 8 per cent in 2013 while negative inclinations have remained stable at 67 per cent."
I just found this latest BBC poll on the views of different countries' influence:
link to bbc.co.uk
Germany came out top, with 59% rating it positively.
Israel, North Korea, Pakistan and Iran came out worst in terms of how they are viewed globally.
Wow, I'm speechless. That's just sad. For once, there's an organisation that focuses on the important things, namely preserving the Jewish culture, but the donors are not interested. They only think about how Jewishness and Jewish history can be exploited for political purposes, namely preserving the Jewish state. It's really no surprise when there are people who can't tell the difference between Judaism and Zionism, and therefore become suspicious of anything Jewish.
"Moslem" is a variant of "muslim".
link to merriam-webster.com
The same applies to the German words, by the way.
Lapid's summary of the difference between the two populations, Israelis want security, Palestinians want justice, has a profound truth to it but contains its contradiction: Israelis are insecure because of an injustice; they will never find security without justice.
Exactly right!