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Total number of comments: 99 (since 2011-05-01 08:35:34)

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  • Netanyahu gives genocidal bible story to Obama
    • Hi Phil, you got it slightly wrong..
      AIPAC is Esther and Mordechai who aim at political domination
      Obama is King Ahasuerus who kills the bad Goyim on behalf of the Jews
      Iran is Haman who is slaughtered with his sons..

      All pretty simple..all in the open..

  • ADL enlists city of Oakland to block Atzmon event
    • Shmuel, can you please point out a single racist reference in my entire work?

    • out of interest, did you read Eisen?

    • You are wrong, i am a self hater not a jew hater,,, the question is why me hating myself annoys so many Jews?

    • I agree? this is the only relevant q

    • If someone wants to show examples of Atzmon’s “rabid anti-semitism” or incitement against Jews, I will of course change my mind, but I havent seen it.

      The same here,,, have never seen a single proof of myself being antisemite or HD...

    • Adam, you clearly didn't read a single paper by me. Where did you find this-"He believes Judaism is evil and Jews are not ordinary humans"?

      None of that in my writing? I am not critical of Judaism and never write about Jews,, I write about Jewish ideology!!! in the list of quote you circulated above, there is not a single criticism of Jews (as people) or Judaism but only criticism of J ideology, culture and discourse!!!

  • Arendt: Born in conflict, Israel will degenerate into Sparta, and American Jews will need to back away
    • Thanks Robert, Elon is an important text. the conclusion of the book is slightly lame though.
      You surprised me with 'Take it or leave it', where did you buy it? Do you live in the UK? I am in NYC next week, i will try to obtain the Prestige collection... there is nothing I love more than Coltrane, in fact he is my God...

    • Piotr: Gilad, I think that you at occasion make anti-Semitic rants.

      G: You are entitled to think, whether you can substantiate is obviously another matter.

      Piotr: I do not recall the details, but once you discuss opinions of a Jewish Marxist on some Palestinian issue. Which you found disturbingly incorrect and you attributed the errors to the obstinate Jewishness of the writer.

      G: Don't you think that it is slightly outrageous to come with such a vague statement and yet to associate me with a racism.
      I guess that this is the piece you are referring to
      link to gilad.co.uk
      If you find 'antisemitism' there, i will be happy to discuss it

      Piotr: According to your own synopsis, this guy was reducing the isssue to class warfare and imperialism. Correct or wrong, this is a standard Marxist perspective, rather than “Jewish Marxism”. Unless Jewishness of Marxism goes all the way back to Karl Marx. In any case, standard Marxism is a universalist doctrine, and so very far from tribalism.

      G: If you read my paper , you will be able to stop guessing...

    • He knows this is why he joined forces with Dershowitz. as the book suggested, we are dealing with a pretty unified tribal front... the political 'debate' is there to confuse to Goyim..

    • Robert, you obviously restrict yourself to a very limited vision of history.
      In my writing I insist that the past is a living dynamic entity. The past keeps changing as it reflects through our vision of history on the present and the future.

      You have just learned about an alternative narrative that offers a completely different interpretation of some major and dramatic events that changed the world we are living in. It is not a fringe conspiratorial narrative. It is discussed by major historian. All the relevant documents are available, some are on the net. Instead of referring to is as an 'ahistorical', just make your investigation. Take your time, read Amos Elon, as far as i can remember Benjamin Freedman also referred to it in his famous speech, though you may trust Freedman.

      I am touring from tomorrow, but you can approach me via my site. I think that i refer to it in my latest book in a footnote. if you don't find your way, i guess that both Blankfort and myself can sort you out.

      And to conclude-what Jeff said wasn't baseless, he didn't use the appropriate PC J term. It wasn't the 'Jews', it was the 'Jewish Bankers' or the 'Jewish Lobbies' are as some would say 'Zionists' etc' . Mind you it is also the same Jewish lobby that prevented you from learning this chapter in your past.

      Peace
      G

    • Jeffrey is obviously spot on here, I learned about it from Amos Elon's The Pity of it All (not exactly a right wing Nazi text) . But we have to be precise here.. it was not the 'Jews', it was actually a few Jewish (German and Russian) bankers who 'somehow' changed sides, from being German patriotic into 'pro British'.. All relevant information is widely available..

    • It is OK, I am used to people attributing me some strange thoughts.. All i can say is read my own words, not what people say on my behalf. I am not a Marxist or a political activist and simplicity is not necessarily a value in my universe. I am a truth seeker, hence, my ideas are sometime complicated ... i am sorry about it
      Peace G

    • Yep it is me.. Gilad Atzmon, tx for your kind words:) By the way I will be in NYC next week, in case you or anyone else wants to meet me..

    • Hello Keith, I understand what you are saying about ch 9. however, in the discourse I try to develop here or there, there is no need for forensic evidence. I offer an analytical insight, you can take it or leave it. I accept it. And still Ash's critic seems to be lame.

      Re Ch 18 we obviously agree, yet, one of my 'original' ideas in this book is that the Holocaust was always there. The fear is inherent to the PRE- Traumatic Stress Syndrome. In other words, to be a Jew is to be fearful. Interestingly enough in Hebrew, an orthodox Jew is called Yehudi Hared- A 'fearful Jew'.

      Keith you say "I think that Jews opposing Zionism identifying themselves as Jews has, overall, been a positive thing." Believe it or not, i tend to agree with you. And it could be much greater if Jews would dedicate themselves to ethical issues rather than trying to steer the movement.

      We have a lot of great Jews in this movement and their contribution is crucial. Yet, we have a bunch of Talmudic characters who constantly try to tell us what is right and who is wrong. My message to them and everyone else is simple. WE don't need a Kosher stamp!!!

      Thanks for your attention, and i am not upset at all... and even if you make me upset it won't be an issue!

      Peace G

    • Hello Keith, Actually, I think that my chapter 9 is not bad at all... It is indeed bad news for the so-called Jewish 'anti' Zionists AKA AZZ.

      The book is not more restrained than my previous writings. It actually include my most controversial articles. But somehow, judging by the many endorsements, they all make sense when put together.

      Just a small correction, Shahak came from a religious background, I think that his father was a qualified Rabbi. However the big difference between Shahak and myself is that Shahak concentrated on Judaism and the Talmud in particular. I learned a lot for Shahak, yet, it is clear to me that our contemporary issues with Jewish identity (Zionism, anti Zionism, AIPAC etc' ) has something to do with Jewish secular identity.

      My task is to deconstruct this identity and to understand its fundamentals .
      This fact alone may explain why I am probably the most hated (ex) Jew on this planet, but guess what, I learned to enjoy it :)

    • RoHa, this is not what i say..i guess that you better read the book. I do not talk about Jews (what they say or what they do), I elaborate on the ideology (Jewishness). I try to understand what exilic culture is all about..

    • Few hours, not even a day, ...Yourstruly, just to remind you that Gaza is a concentration camp for more than a few hours, or just a few days or even years. Do you really think that half a dozen Jews can vindicate the entire tribe by engaging in a tea break Israeli embassy's occupation? Let me tell you, it will take more than that to emancipate the tribe of itself...

    • Hello Danna, some Jewish 'anti' Zionists oppose the book because it exposes them as AZZ (Anti Zionist Zionists) ... While the book was supposed to encourage them to self reflect, they made a clear tactical mistake, yet symptomatic to their Talmudic approach- they tried to silence it.

      The result was immediately clear. While the book was proved to be a best seller, the AZZ found themselves fighting it alongside Dershowitz and Foxman. And guess what, according to The Wandering Who, this is exactly where they belong...

    • I must admit that I attempted to read Ash's review.. The man clearly doesn't understand Lacan at all. Ash's review wasn't published on any respected outlet, and was far too lame , hence I didn't bothered to address it.

      As far as I can remember, his main argument was that Lacan says, 'unconscious is the discourse of the other' and Gilad says 'Unconsciousness is the discourse of the other' .. big deal. Even a 'lame Beyond Frontieress' Ash should have been clever enough to gather that while Lacan deals with the human subject, I am dealing with a morbid collective in which Ash, Mooser, IJAN and a few other AZZ (Anti Zionist Zionists) are mere exemplary cases.

      In other words, when dealing with a collective it make sense to employ the abstract form 'unconsciousness'. Needless to say, that Ash failure to grasp the analogy between Israeli unconsciousness with male fear of impotence is very embarrassing, for this analogy was actually brought up by Slavio Zizek, the most respected Lacan reader. Oy Vey...I guess that this explains why no one touched any of these AZZ's reviews...

    • Hello Jeff, a friend mentioned this discussion to me,,, let me tell you a secret, I also don't agree with me completely :) But thanks for your support. Happy New Year
      G

  • Atzmon and Jewish identity
    • What an unusual comment..

      I learned from Yrn today that MW is there “to publish a diversity of voices to promote dialogue on ideas thoughts important within the Jewish community.”

      Weiss, then intervened, yet, for some reason, he didn't bother to correct Yrn. So I guess that, until a further notice, Yrn may be right, MW maybe concerned primarily with issues to do with the Jewish community..This fits nicely with Weiss statement about 'Jewish self-interest'. It may also explains why Nahida aka Exiled Palestinian was moderated here and was basically expelled.

      I would love to continue and monitor this site, but I cannot contribute to such a site... I will have to dream of a star attached to my name..

    • @ Citizen...I do not think America would like to challenge the patriotic feeling of its J communities...

      Hence, the earlier contempt of Yrn toward American veterans doesn't take me by surprise.

    • Re Coen's movie.. check this out..
      link to gilad.co.uk

    • Citizen, , do you like Curb Your Enthusiasm? This is the cleverest critique of J tribalism..Maybe, Coen Brothers Simple Man is as good..

    • @Citizen- in fact no other group would have AIPAC or CFI...other group may try to politically promote their local interest within the host nation politics. Jewish lobbies promote interests of a foreign state... This is very unusual..

      Jewish ideology is a very unique form of a phantasmic exclusivist yearning to 'sameness'. ...Zionism promised Jews to make them into 'people like all other people' and to a certain extent the J prog discourse is doing the same. it clings to 'sameness'. 'We have our problems like all other groups'.. I don't buy this escapist way of thinking.. I believe that once prog Jews are brave enough to deal with the uniqueness and particularity of Jewishness peace may prevail..

    • Yrn, check out your sources, I am very critical of Jewish secular ideology (left, Right and centre) . You won't find any opposition to Judaism in my writing or public appearances ..

      Needless to say that like Israelis you try to tell us who is relevant and who isn't. In case you fail to grasp, relevance of ideas is valued by their impact in a free market of thoughts. As tragic as it may be, my ideas spread fast and featured on most dissidents magazines around the world. Yrn, you will ve to try something else.

    • Mr Weiss, not that I agree that this is my goal, but once again you have manage to come up with a very problematic reasoning. If I understand you correctly, you actually suggest that every time we criticize Jewish ideology or 'Jews', we better also put into question the rest of humanity.. Let me tell you Philip, no one else, except Jews have ever come with such an unusual demand.

      I do not see any problem with criticism of Jewish ideology as much as I do not see any problem with Max Weber work on Protestant thought. And again, I am not against a comparative research, yet this doesn't stop Jewish tribalism from being a very unique intellectual, ideological and cultural setting.

    • @ Yrn & Citizen

      While MW openly dedicates itself to 'the war of ideas in the MIDDLE EAST', Yrn argues that MW is all about 'ideas (and) thoughts important within the Jewish community.' So if I get it right, according to Yrn, MW is just another 'Jews only cyber shtetl.'

      I guess that as much as Yrn would love to ethnically cleanse the Goyim from this site, the owners of the site, actually allowed this discussion to happen.

      In case Yrn, fails to grasp, he is not an alternative to Zionism. He is basically a cyber Zionist. He indulges himself in Jewish Choseness and ethno-centric cyber cleansing.

      Yrn says above, "That’s why Mondoweiss is not your place, 'Veterans today' is your place, as they share the same goal and agenda."

      Sorry to tell you Yrn, but this is an exact repetition of the right wing Zionist argument. The Israelis often tell Palestinians: 'Palestine is not your place, the Arab countries are your place, as they share the same goal and agenda.' As you can see i only replaced MW with Pls and VT with Arab countries.. and I was clearly left with a classic Zionist argument..

      Nice one Yrn. Like the other Prog Js in this thread , you have managed to expose yourself . You are a Zionist to the bone, if you sound like a Zio and operate as a Zio.. you must be a Zio..

      Yrn also says "your goal is completely different, you don’t want any tribal Jewish community, further more, you don’t want the Jew, Jewishnes, and Jewish communities at all."

      Wrong, I do not have any problem with Jewish tribalism, yet I expose the clear discrepancy between the 'tribal' and the 'universal'..

      Also, I do not have problem with 'the Jew, and Jewish communities', yet, i have a serious problem with Jewish ideology (Jewishness) steering the Palestinian solidarity discourse. I am the first to welcome Jews into the discourse as equals amongst equals!!!

      Along the last decade, i have come across endless Jewish attempts to silence me, we can also see similar attempts in this thread. However, in my entire history ( and i produced a lot of writing), you won't find a single attempt to silence anyone not even my detractors!!!

      You see Yrn, i believe that if Jews want to be taken seriously they better start to self-reflect..

      Now to the point.

    • Yrn, have you noticed that once again you failed to develop a single argument. Other 'prog' Jews tried to do the same here, to discredit me, to label me, let me tell you.they failed miserably. This tactic is effective within the Jewish shtetle, it is actually counter effective in a civilized open space. It actually exposes the 'prog' Jew as a gatekeeper and an enemy of humanism.

      The relevance of my or anyone else's thoughts is determined by the scale of public discussion. I guess that 600 comments means something. And yes, you are right about one thing. I am indeed obsessed with Jewish Identity politics and J power. This is my thing... but you better explain what is wrong with it...

    • And I thought to myself that this thread is dead by now..
      Yrn: "I think this Philip Weiss episode with Atzmon will be used by Atzmon as evidence and reference to critisize the progressive jews"
      Gilad: In fact I actually praised Weiss for being the only progressive Jew brave enough to tell the truth about Jewish self-interest... However you Yrn, actually prove anything I say about Prog Jews. Do you really believe that Prog Jews are beyond criticism? Are you really sacred? and if you are sacred, what right you have to criticise Zionists? they also believe to be sacred What makes MW different was the fact that it allowed this discussion. It popped out of the box, it drifted away from the mental shtetle you are locked in. It transcended itself beyond choseness...

    • Lebanon...
      the report is here
      link to gilad.co.uk

      Not exactly an IDF hero..

    • Clearly not, and I guess we all know why...

    • Hello everybody, i am touring at the moment and do not have the access to the net. I read you all on my mobile though.

      This is certainly a very interesting threads especially because of the dynamic between the many opposing voices. It was so interesting to watch the tribal operators being cornered. It is astonishing to see how aggressive and rude the Jewish 'progressive' campaigners are in comparison to others. I wonder, is aggression inherent to Jewish identity politics? What is it really?

      Citizen, I am alone because I prefer to operate alone. I am not a victim. I am supported by very many people around the world (like here). But only when I am alone I can say what I think and what I believe. I will never affiliate with any political body. As long as J activist fight me, it only means I must do something right.

      Earlier on Avi and others compared between H denial and Nakba denial. It is clear why the 'Progressives' do not censor Nakba denial but struggle to trace the H denier even when it isn't there. The Progressive Jew is constituted by the primacy of Jewish suffering (very much like the Zionists). There is no J secular political identity without the H (they would say "Hitler remind me that I am a Jew").

      Here is my suggestion for the many intelligent people here. Transcend yourself beyond the discourse of 'denial'. The denial category is a continuation of the Judeo-centric binary opposition Kosher/Taref hence, Holocaust/denial, Nakba/Denial etc. We don't need it. We prefer to celebrate the notion of dynamic history. competing narratives fighting each other. There is a universe between 'holocaust' and 'denial'...this universe is the birth of meaning. It is also the birth of the tragedy.

      Authentic people celebrate the act of Being. They are shaped and re-shaped by the act of being and becoming . They are thrilled by openness and dynamism. Labeling ideas and people as 'denial' and 'deniers' is a form of alienation. It is an act of boxing. Let's leave it to the progressive...

      Instead, let the rest of us celebrate Being with a capital 'B'. Let us dig into the notion of beauty, ethics, temporality. Let's fight the Zion within. Let's grasp the deepest meaning of 'self hater united'.

      PS. Pessah, don't even try to understand it. The above is way too sophisticated for you...

    • Pessah, as far as I am aware, you had been exposed here too many time in this week misquoting deliberately!
      I will give you one more chance to find the word meshige.. here is the quote

      "Wagner also held views that are far from being popular amongst Jews. He once wrote that Jews were only capable of producing money-making music and not works of art. I guess that Israelis do not like meshiges with an astute reading of the socio-economy of the show business."
      link to gilad.co.uk

      Did you manage or shall we go word by word till you find it. You can also use ctrl F if you are desperate..
      You know what is the problem with pessah, you do not have dignity. And people without dignity do not know when to stop...
      ...

    • Dont ve time for it now.. but her is the quote.

      "Instead of assuming that the Goyim are just a bunch of crazy blood thirsty lunatics that periodically just went mad again and again throughout history in their dislike for Jews, the scholars would rather be advised to look for the root causes that may well have lead to an anti Semitic event, ideology or text.

      Such a study then, would surely be academically and socially valuable, and I believe it would also be crucial for Jews and Israelis, so they may be enabled to understand the world they live in, and to grasp their role in it.

      Some commendable studies by Jewish academics have already been done in that area : The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine, The Pity Of It All by Amos Elon and Jewish History, Jewish Religion by Israel Shahak"

      The 3 authors above refer to the rationality rather than just Torah. Andrew. neither in this text or any of my writing did i justify any form of hatred including anti Semitism... Andre, I guess that English is you mother tongue.. you will have to dedicate more effort if you want to engage with me....

    • AR: This would explain why historical anti-semites considered Jews a menace when they gave up their religion and attempted to assimilate into gentile society. Did I mention they gave up their religion, as in, had no Jewish education and would not know what’s in the Talmud, and they were still suspected of attempting to destroy gentile nations?

      G: Indeed and this is a very interesting topic that demands much attention. In short i would say that in many cases, Jewish secularism, is realised as leaving God behind, yet all the problematic symptoms of
      tribal exclusiveness remain intact. This may explains why many Progressive Jews prefer to operate in Jewish racially oriented cells (Jews for Pls, Jews for peace, Jews against Zionism and so on). MB spoke a few days ago about Elon's Pitty Of It All, i think that you should read it and try to understand what assimilation meant for the Jews.

      AR: Yet the contents of the Torah and Talmud itself are enough to explain eugenics. And the Torah was good enough to be part of the Christian holy book — why would Atzmon consider that a source of antagonism to gentiles?

      G: It would be interesting for you to examine what Christianity took from the Torah and what it left for the Jews. There is doubt that, on the ideological level (as opposed to practice), Christians are basically (or supposed to be) Jews who love their neighbors.

      AR: Also, he is dishonestly abusing Israel Shahak in that article. Shahak never suggested the Jewish holy texts were a cause of anti-semitism. That was not the point of his work at all.

      G: Sorry, this is not in my text, you made it up. Shahak gives a very good account of the origin of East European antagonism towards Jews. He initially speaks about class struggle but then he explains it referring to the Talmud and its teaching (proximity to power and so on).

      AR: I bet Atzmon would really like this, “Modern racism (of which antisemitism is part) although caused by specific social conditions, becomes, when it gains strength, a force that in my opinion can only be described as demonic.” Isn’t the point of his writings that antisemitism is a rational reaction?

      G: So please enlighten us all and explain once and for all how do we deal with AS in case it is 'irrational'? are we going to develop a new medical procedure for the Goyim? Should we try to convince every Goy to take a pill first thing in the morning? Don't you think that it would be much easier to examine event historically and rationally.

      AR: And it figures that Max Nordau would “provide some adequate answers to questions regarding the origins of anti Semitism.” When Nordau himself detested the weakness of European Jews and wanted to shape them into Aryan supermen, albeit they’d be called Maccabean instead of Aryan.

      G: Indeed, many of the Zionists were romanticists. However, we don't have to agree with Nordau's solution but we could admit that he was critical of his people and there is nothing wrong with that (as far as i am concerned).

    • Ho, Tx both, you are very kind to me...

    • Yep, as i say: speak universal think tribal..
      In fact P Weiss provides us with an insight into this character, they act out of 'Jewish self-interest' Weiss Says. I guess that they also speak and write out of Jewish self-interest.

      Evildor seems to maintain the Shoa religion through a pseudo liberal text.
      Like most Jews he reduces the Shoa into a material concern (dead count in this case) but then through the back door he re-introduces the Holocaust commandments and the primacy of Jewish suffering. On the one end he says, oi vey, some other people also suffered and even lost more BUT, and HERE IS THE BIG BUT the Nazis were X, Y, Z.. I remind this strange character and yourself that after 10 years in Iraq and 1,5 million fatalities i do not detect much guilt in the USA or Britain. Also, i somehow find very little concern for the Pls plight amongst world Jewry or Israelis and this is after 63 years of state terror.

      In short, I am not impressed at all, and by the way, such a 'liberal' post could be posted on most Zionist site including HP. It conforms totally with Zionist H narrative.

    • Tx Citizen..this is what i wrote about it when i was younger :)

      link to gilad.co.uk

      My new book will be out soon.. it digs into this identity and exposes its deceitful operational mode..

    • The differences are minor. They agree on everything to do with tribal affairs. They slightly disagree on Pls and the role of Zionism. This is really a minor internal Jewish affair. They make it look like a fundamental debate because it conveys an image of pluralism. It may as well be that they themselves believe that the differences are colossal.

      As far as I am concerned, Harry's Place is well ahead of JSF just because it is at least coherent and open about everything. It is tribal, it is neocon, it is Zionist and exclusive. JSF and most tribal 'progressive J poltical cells' fall into the same old trap: they speak universal but the think tribal.

    • And what is wrong with that, unlike Pessah & ilk , I didn't alter Weiss' words, I didn't quote him out of context, I also asked for his consent. And yes, what he says in this interview affirms my criticism of the Jewish progressive discourse; it is Judeo-centric to the bone.
      Still it is far from being clear where is the problem.

    • Shmuel
      People cannot ignore me for the same reason you failed to do so. The fact that this thread is so big is not a coincidence.

      I do not want to sound arrogant, but I may have managed to introduce a new form of criticism of J identity politics that transcends beyond ethnicity, biology and race. I elaborate on the tribal elitism that drives Zionism and Jewish anti Zionism alike. I scrutinise Jewish ideology (Jewishness) rather than ‘Jews’ (the people) or ‘Judaism’ per se.

      I also elaborate on the notion of temporality and argue that revisionism is at the heart of humanist thinking. For instance, If the Israelis may be brave enough to re-visit their crime on the Mavi Marmara last year, they probably manage to save themselves from committing a similar crime next week. The same rule applies to the Holocaust; If we re-visit the holocaust we may start to understand its meaning and stop killing Muslims in the name of 'democracy'. For me, it is all about our capacity to visit and re-visit, to view and re-view. Our vision of the past is a key element in our perception of a better future.

      I guess that these ideas dismantle (ideologically) the School of Jewish Progressive Thought. They crash the hegemony of Jewish suffering and they also ridicule the bizarre racially oriented peace activism (Jews for peace sounds as silly as Aryans for Palestine).

      So far, I have never encountered a single argument against my body of thought. Instead, what I usually see is desperate attempts to label me as: racist, anti Semite, H denier and so on.

      I say desperate because those attempts always fall apart and actually prove everything I say about J identity politics to be truth.
      Why don't they succeed? Why did you fail? Why was tom Pessah humiliated here exposed time after time lying misquoting out of context and even deliberately changing my words? If I am as bad as you think, why do you have to work so hard to prove it? And then, how come, no one buys you plot t out of the J circles?

      Simple, you do not have an argument. Why you do not have an argument? Because you are in the wrong. Because, as Phill Weiss admitted, it is the 'Jewish self-interest' that motivates you.

      As it happens, we do not need racism or anti Semitism in order to prove that there is a clear discrepancy between Jewish tribalism and humanism.

      If Progressive Jews were slightly more sophisticated they would address this issue ASAP. It may as well be possible that this thread that is moderated by Wiess is such a self reflective attempt to deal with it all. I can see Weiss somehow 'Zigzagging' here. He did the same it in the interview. It is not easy for him. It is indeed a very difficult dilemma. Believe me that I know how painful it is. In my journey form Zionism to humanism I also passed through the Jewish progressive slot.. , I realised that it was just another form of J elitist thinking..It wasn't easy for me then

      I hope that by now I am pretty ordinary

    • @ Citizen , in general we can talk about everything and everyone except J identity and the H...This is why this thread is a big victory. I am not a blogger so i don't really know, but i do not think that i have ever seen a thread that long and with so many interesting ideas.

    • I agree, but as you know, no one really stops us from doing so. Only when it comes to J identity we are confronted with unified front of Zios backed by Jewish 'progressive' fig leaves. An i am pretty impressed to see you all exposing them for what and who they are.

    • Thank you all... supporters and detractors :)

    • for a change I agree with Shmuel.
      Also, i would love to know what Holocaust denial entails.

    • Hello MB , It isn't a novel, It is called The Wandering Who? A Study of Jewish Identity Politics.. it will be out in October, you will love it i think...

    • @ MHughes976
      Really? and what about pedophiles and their self interests? Do their interests fit us all? Clearly we have a fruitful discussion here because it is obvious to many of us that there is a discrepancy between Jewish self-interest (tribal and self centered) and humanism (universal & ethical).

      The beauty of early (political) Zionism was the attempt to argue that 'that which fits the Jews fits all' i.e as much as it suits the Jews to have a land of their own, it also suits the European to get rid of their Jews. This was obviously a false argument. It was Euro-centric and didn't take into account neither the Pls nor the Jews (who were reluctant to buy into Zionism at the time).

      I think that the attempt to talk about universal self-interest interests is in itself very dangerous, misleading and typical to post enlightenment discourse. Dangerously enough it reminds us the Neocon's argument for democracy. We basically kill people in the name of freedom, after all, democracy is in their (self) interest...I just don't buy it.

    • Tx so much tree, I am afraid the we are dealing here with a bunch of jokers. I think that they don't even know the Zionist H narrative which they blindly defend. It is really sad..I expect much more intellectual enthusiasm from so called 'progressives' ...

    • Tx so much for your comment Danna. It is all pretty simple really..

      Just one more point and i am done...

      You mentioned the Progressive J and Tikun Olam...again it is a common myth.

      Rather often, we hear progressive Jews talking in the name of 'their Jewish values' ...what values?... the horrifying truth is that there is no Jewish Secular value system and the religious one is far from being universal..

      The Askalah (J enlightenment) is not an intellectual or metaphysical shift, it is a Goyim mimicking mode. Jews have never replaced the religio with an ethical universal theorem. We do not have a Jewish Kant or Jewish categorical imperative..

      I believe that most progressive Jews do not realise that there is no such body of thought, there is no Jewish secular value system and the religious one is far from universal. ...I guess that for knowing it and saying it, i am despised primarily by Jewish left. I can easily cope with it.

    • I guess that Jon S tries to divert the attention from the real problem..
      When it comes to Jewish chosensness the problem we encounter is with secular Jewishness (rather than with Judaism).

      For the Torah follower choseness is indeed a moral burden.

      However within the J secular discourse, choseness is clearly a privilege. The Zionist uses it as a land registry and the progressive regards oneself as a part of elite group, he is there to preach us who is kosher and who isn't.

      The secular Jews need choseness because this is all they got.
      Once you drop God, Jewishness is left with very little-basically supremacy and chicken soup.

      Supremacy is bad, and chicken could be nice, yet, it isn't exactly a political argument.

    • I am with you here. I can imagine Weiss being also troubled with his own lines. but who knows..

      MB: If a WASP came on the discussion thread and expressed those notions, they’d be — rightly — immediately challenged.

      G: Good point, so here is another insight into the J tribal Progressive discourse. Our J progressive candidates here, clearly didn't challenge Weiss, they much preferred killing the messenger (me) .

      MB: That leads me to my second query ( and it is a genuine query, not a provocative, trolling one )– is that ‘specialness’ and ‘elite’ idea Weiss expresses something inherited from being brought up in Jewish culture, and influenced by ideas from Jewish scripture? The idea that a Jewish soul is ‘special’, ‘different’, ‘chosen’?

      G: Very good question, I cannot answer for Weiss but my study of the topic suggests that J secular supremacy is based on misinterpretation of the Judaic core. While Judaic choeness is realised as a moral burden, the secular form is nothing but supremacy. As you can see in this thread and beyond, the progressive Jew always know what is good for Pls, Palestinians and humanity. And the rest of us better follow before they blame us for being anti Semites or H deniers..

      In Weiss however i detected a dilemma. it is certainly more sophisticated, and i believe that this is a positive sign.

      MB: I find these ideas very troubling indeed, and I wonder how Jews feel about them

      G: you ll have to wait for my book, it is all there..

      MB: I wonder if Jews realise how alienating and troubling ( and saddening in their divisiveness) these ideas are to non -Jews, and I wonder if Jews find these notions easy to shake off?

      G: let me help you here, The Jews who see it all are called 'self haters'. The self lovers indulge themselves in power games. they boycott, exclude, excommunicate. They engaged in the building of ghetto walls made of bricks of blindness abd arrogance. And they are indeed isolated and alienated even from their own feelings and Being.

    • Hello MB, indeed, totally troubling, yet, very honest and brave of Weiss to admit it.

      It is also possible that Weiss didn't grasp how troubling it was. I obviously do not know him at all...

    • Annie, to start with Weiss admitted in the first paragraph of this post:
      "Though I regret my flip comment calling the Catholic church the church of pedophilia, apologies."
      My comment about Weiss was referring to this statement about the Catholic church. He was once again brave enough to apologize and I totally respect it.

      Also the fact that one performs disrespect towards many churches doesn't make one more tolerant..

      Whether self interest entails exclusion of others is an open question. Clearly those who operate here under a Jewish banner believe that excluding me is the way forward. I guess that this is how they interpret their Jewish interest. As we know different people have different interests and this applies also to Jews.

      Also, specialness is not a problem as long as it is not celebrated on the expense of others..

    • Annie, I answer below.
      
 A: gilad, i am curious wrt your statements about people joining a march, as i understand it was a death march.

      G: The statement about ‘people joining the march voluntarily’ was made by Israeli Shoa scholar Prof. Israel Gutman. You have to ask him. But I will help you as much as I can. There is a clear discrepancy between the initial Nazi ‘Jew free zone’ and the march of thousands of Jewish prisoners into the motherland at the end of the war. The Zionist narrative doesn’t offer an explanation.
      The historical question is simple. Why a defeated army carries thousands of physically broken inmates back to the motherland?
      Do you have an answer? Can anyone offer an answer?
      There is no doubt that the march took place and there also no doubt that many inmates perished along the march. Yet the title ‘death march’ was given in retrospective and it is anachronistically ludicrous to asses the historical role of an event solely through its outcome.

      A: what do you mean whn you posit the Nazis didn't want to kill the Jews? Did you say that?

      G: As a general practice you better read my own words rather than following what other say on ‘my behalf’. I think that Pessah has been exposed above for misquoting deliberately. I am used to it by now, but cannot waste time on it.

      A: do you posit Jews joined a march because the place where they were leaving might have been worse? What exactly is this entire controversy people reject wart your 'theories' or speculations?

      G: Again not me, it is Guttmann who says that they joined voluntarily. It may as well be possible that many of them didn’t want to wait for the red army. But here is a very interesting twist. As we know, typhus was spreading in the camps at the time. The German army didn’t have the means to deal with it. According to some revisionist some German generals decided to quarantine the disease and move the prisoners to the West with the hope that British and American would be able to deal with it (such a reading if correct would actually make the march into a humanitarian effort). It may as well be possible that the prisoners also followed the same logic. This makes sense to me, what about you?

      A: why do you think you are such a radical figure?

      G: I don’t see myself as a radical figure. As far as I can see, and MB mentioned it, most people on this thread actually support me. It is clearly 4 people who identify politically as Jews who oppose me. I may be a radical figure within Jewish discourse. However, m y concerts and talks are always full with pretty ordinary people and this includes many Jews and Israelis..

      A: it doesn't make sense for anyone to deny the holocaust actually existed I can't even fathom you would deny it existed so what is it that makes you of all people such a lighting rod?

      G: I do not know how to address it, if you find my denial statement please share it with the rest of us. I believe that history should be discussed openly, this refers to the Holocaust, Nakba, Holodmor and so on.

      A: i suppose i mean, what do you mean, like..in a nutshell? are you positing people were not exterminated @ auschwitz ? or what?

      G: I do not have any doubt that people died in Auschwitz and many of them, but I do find it very disturbing that we cannot discuss this issues freely. There are some complications with the traditional Holocaust narrative. I cannot accept that these difficulties cannot be discussed in the open !!!

      A: I guess i do not comprehend why anyone would think that, if in fact you do. But if you do think that, would you be thinking it because you hate Jews? (! hard to fathom) that in itself is not even logical. perhaps i am conceptually challenged. it's not like anyone could just fabricate or hide millions of deaths anyway. they would have to be delusional.

      G: Again it is even embarrassing to address such a question. I am obviously married to a Jew, in my band I ve 2 Jews. Many of my supporters are Jews. I do not have problem with Jews or Judaism but I have a serious problem with Jewish ideology (choseness), and Zionism is just one symptom of this ideology.

      A: so here is what i wonder about being an observer of human nature, why and how did it all come about? i somewhat understand the psyche behind the how of a people excusing ethnic cleansing after a few years (relatively nothing) of studying palestine/israel. but wrt the holocaust there is never any realistic explanation wrt how it came down that so many people got so evil, how they bought into it. i know how israelis have bought into hatred of palestinians because i have watched the propaganda, the brainwashing.the crime against

      G: Actually, I think think that from some different perspectives Israel is worse than Nazi Germany, for Israel is a democracy. And the crime against the Pls lasts for much longer than the Nazi crime against the Jews.

      A: why does the holocaust reign when american has wiped out millions apon millions in south america, vietnam, iraq and afghanistan? and israel kills palestinians as if they were swatting flies?

      G: Exactly, because we are treating the H as a religion rather than attempting to internalize the ethical meaning of that historical chapter. We are stuck in a binary world of ‘goddies’ and ‘baddies’, and we are somehow , always the goodies.

    • I am in total agreement here!

    • Tx so much for your support
      G

    • Jon S
      Do your homework, It is not Atzmon but Israel Gutman, the most credible Israeli Shoa Scholar at the time, who tells the tale of the death march.

      link to gilad.co.uk

      "One of my friends and relatives in the camp came to me on the night of the evacuation and offered a common hiding place somewhere on the way from the camp to the factory. …The intention was to leave the camp with one of the convoys and to escape near the gate, using the darkness we thought to go a little far from the camp. The temptation was very strong. And yet, after I considered it all I THEN DECIDED TO JOIN (the march) with all the other inmates and to share their fate " (Israel Gutman [editor], People and Ashes: Book Auschwitz - Birkenau, Merhavia 1957).

    • Jon S
      I will answer you.

      NO, there is no 'problem with Jews wishing to maintain their identity?'

      The problem starts when Jews insist to celebrate their identity on the expense of others!!!

      Zionists are doing it on the expense of the Palestinians, Pessah & Co insist to do it on the expense of (my) freedom of speech..

    • Hello MB
      I was waiting for this question...
      I believe that it is obvious...

      For the last ten years I was pretty effective exposing the problematic nature of Jewish progressive activism.

      For a decade I was waiting for a Jew activist to admit it- to come up and say, 'it is all about Jewish self-interest.'

      I am talking about all these issues openly. I have managed to define a new discourse that opposes Jewish ideology yet transcend beyond any form of racism or hatred. I founded a humanist manner to tackle the Holocaust religion. As you can see, my opponents (above) didn't mange to present a single argument against me. I guess that my detractors are aware of the popularity of my ideas out of their circles..

      Pessah, Shmuel, Wondering Jew and a few others are the kind of people who are set to 'gate keep' the left discourse. They may have been very successful in the past, but they certainly failed with me.

      And as we can see, they are boiling with anger.
      This is a big shame, all they have to do really is to self reflect.

    • Indeed, it is pretty amusing to see here that some of the Jewish 'progressive' voices here are using the exact ADL Zio tactics.

      If we for instance decide to define Zionism as an operational mode (rather than an ideological stand), then the dichotomy between Zionism and J anti Zionism collapses instantly. We are basically left with a tribal operational mode and Jewish self interest..

    • I obviously saw Nahida's comment and I am a very big supporter of Nahida's writing. But I also know that by the time any political Jew reacts to Nahida's call, this would be the end of him or her Jewish activism.

      Nahida's writing is there to expose the Judeo centric impetus that drives the Jewish anti Zionist discourse.

      It was me who sent Nahida's piece to P. Weiss with the belief that her expose must be discussed here. I really looking forward to see how the progressive Jewish voices here are going to deal with her intervention..

    • MH you say "What’s in the interest of all is in the interest of each."

      Fine no problem there, yet some complexity rises when you turn it around..

      Would you also say that 'what’s in the interest each is in the interest of all'?

      I don't think so. Clearly we don't know what are in the interest of each for different people and collectives want different things.

      Apparently there is a discrepancy between Jewish self-interest and Palestinian liberation. This is really the crux of the matter.

    • Shmuel, I am here because this thread discusses an interview I published. I've never been here before and do not have any plans to intervene with your discussions.

      However, considering the fact that very many Pls, Arab and Muslim outlets publish my writing on a daily basis and bearing in mind that this site is dedicated to the 'war of ideas in the Middle East' how do you justify your call for excommunication?

      Until now, some people here agreed with me, and a few of the 'progressive' Jews tried to silence me,.. but as usual, not a single person here dared debating me. I had been labeled here as a 'H denier', 'a racist', 'an idiot' but not a single argument to justify any of these labels was presented.

      Isn't it slightly sad or even pathetic?

    • Danna, I believe that the exposure of the problematic nature that is inherent to Jewish progressive discourse is very relevant to the Palestinian solidarity discourse.

      What we see here is just another attempt of a few pretty much anonymous Jews to say what is right for Pls and who is kosher...

      I suggest that you look at this piece by Nahida The Exile Palestinian
      link to uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com

      Nahida, says it in plain words. We want Jews in this movement but we don't want them to tell us who to drop and who to love...I couldn't agree more..

      The same old story, whether it is Shmuel, Pessah, Wondering Jew. it is always a tribal courts introducing different measures if exclusions and excommunications.

      You may be right Danna, I may as well be part of the tribe (I hope i am not). I indeed write about it a lot and just about to publish an extensive book on the topic. However, I believe that I am one of the only persons on this planet who survived (so far) the kosher assault. I talk about it & I write about it. The progressive Jews together with Zionists (as we see here) are desperate to stop me but I somehow manage to keep going and spread the message , a lot thanks to many humanists who support me and join me in this struggle for a single moment of truth.

    • Hi Tree, I gave up on Passah. It is a lost case. I ve seen it before many times-a deceitful operation..

      I just wonder, if i am as bad as they want me to be, why do they have to break my words into segments?
      This thread reminds what I am up against. I am lucky to have 2 days off to follow it up.

    • Another set of empty statements.

      Will Jon S be kind enough to define anti Semitism? So we know once and for all why elaboration on J identity is anti Semitic. Is Jewish identity politics beyond criticism?

      Also, not that i am a Holocaust denier, (I don't even recognize this Zio-centric notion) but i really want to know how come a denial of a historical account is a form of antisemitism?

    • Shmuel, I am sorry to disappoint you. The only people in this movement who fight me are the so called 'progressive' Jews (people who are engaged in your game i.e. gatekeeping) . I am published on most Pls media outlets. I am published on most dissident outlets.

      And yes, you are welcome to apologize your Palestinian readers for being a gatekeeper. I suggest that you read Nahida's piece
      link to uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com

      By the way, I do not know who you are, but i didn't see many Shmuels published on any Palestinian site recently..

    • Fig leaves are essential if you have something to hide.

      G: indeed...

    • Shmuel, by saying that, all you do is really discrediting yourself.

      and to the point, hole in the head, may be not such a bad idea if you can manage to install there a eye that looks inside...

    • I do find it amusing that every engagement with a political Jew on any progressive site is subject to a holocaust litmus test. Yes, i believe the revisionism is the only true meaning of historical study. But let us, indeed move on.

      Philip, not only I do not dismiss Jewish tribalism, I may be the only one who dares exploring it and trace its ideological origins. The difference between Shahak and myself are clear. Shahak explored the role of Jewish religion and Talmud. I insist to take it further, i follow the role of Jewish identity politics; Jewish tribalism and Jewish culture in general. I am very critical of Jewish secularism and Jewish secular politics.

      Philip. The interview with you wasn't easy, probably because you admitted something you may have regretted later. You basically confessed that Jews — like yourself, "are concerned with a Jewish self-interest". This was indeed very brave but it left very many question open.

      For instance, the progressive Jews, do they care about the Palestinians or do they oppose Zionism because it is good for the Jews? Are the progressive Jews (those who identify politically as Jews) loyal to humanity and humanism or are they loyal to the Jews?

      Simple questions i would think.

    • Hello Eliot , i address your issues bellow...
      Gilad, There is a correlation between Zionism and exclusion of non-Jews in today's activism.
      According to J Street's Jeremy Ben-Ami not only Mohammed but no non-Jew can join the debate on Israel.

      G: I am aware of it all. i am about to publish a book about it..

      However, Ben-Ami asserts that, when it comes to discussing Israel, that's for Jews only. He reflects the Zionist dogma that the State of Israel is about Jews.

      G: it isn't just Ben Ami, every form of Jewish politics is exclusive by nature.

      As soon as you move outside the Zionist camp, you lose the exclusionary rule.

      G: as you may notice the lame arguments presented here by the political Jews (Pessah, WJ etc') are of the same nature. They argue who is kosher enough to join the lefty synagogue.

      Jewish Voice for Peace welcomes non-Jews. I think they would even welcome a Mohamed from Gaza.

      G: i hope so, but then, why would Mohamed from Gaza join a J organisation?

      The question is simple, can you engage in a universal discourse while maintaining or operating within a tribal discourse?
      I am concerned about hegemony and domination masquerading as universalism. Judaism has always been a mixture of internal identity and an identity contingent on its relationship with the dominant religion - overwhelmingly, Christianity, and, until recently, Islam too. Christianity has made great strides in embracing an honest universalism, but there is still much unreflected arrogance even in mainline Protestant churches.

      G: for sure, tribalism is a humane tendency. And by the way, Judaism copes well with tribal ethics. In fact, Torah Jews' argument is far more coherent than progressive Jews..

      What I'm saying is that you don't need to be a tribe to be tribal and that we need to figure this stuff out together.

      G: totally agree, also you do not ve to establish a racial continuum in order to be racist...

    • MB, there is a big problem here.

      Self reflection is a dynamic process that involves otherness. We see ourselves through the other (Hegel's Master Slave Dialectic). Yet, choseness dismisses the notion of otherness.

      It would be intelligible For a political Jew to self-reflect, a certain level of de-judification is needed. Yet, when this happens not much is left.

    • Can’t say that I agree with you on progressiveness or Marxism being a continuation of Judaism

      G: I hope you realise that I refer here to a philosophical category rather than a historical continuation. Progressiveness is simply a form of choseness.

      I was referring to Marxists in general, regardless of their self-identification.

      G: Got you, so this is indeed very complicated. I tend to differentiate between 'Marx' and 'Marxism' and between Anglo American Marxism and the rest of the world (Latin, East European and Eastern). I have a serious problem with the former but pretty inspired by the latter.

      When that individual differentiates him or herself by criticizing some aspect of the group identity then the label is applied. It really has nothing to do with any real “self-hatred”, but with a willingness to cast off or criticize part or whole of the externally imposed group identity as determined by some other gatekeeper-member(s) of the group

      G: I agree, it is a form of dissidence, and yet, only when it comes to J self haters, a bad connotation is attached to it. Hence, i define myself as a 'proud self hater.'
      And here is my dilemma, i also define myslef as an 'ex Jew'.. I basically either contradict myself or bouncing endlessly.

    • Israel is the only place in this world where Jews can freely celebrate and exercise their cultural symptoms . The meaning of it is pretty devastating indeed.

      Sadly enough, the anti gentile is inherent to Jewish exclusive thinking. It is also spread within Jewish political left. And this brings us back to the interview. As long as Jews are concerned with 'Jewish Self Interests' their contribution to humanity is rather limited.

    • Indeed and this is why I myself believe the Jewish self hatred is the highest form of Jewish ethical thinking. Look at Jesus, Marx & Spinoza...

      And if Jewishness is a form of some excessive self love , the J self haters fit nicely in, they just love themselves hating themselves :)

      Re progressiveness, Marxism, Jewishness and so on.. yes, i do believe that progressiveness is a continuation of Judaism. It is a broad interpretation of choseness. It also explains why some Jews interpret Marxism as just another exclusive Jewish religion.

    • And now move beyond the papa, mama, uncle, sh'mancle...and ask yourself why was your innocent 4 years old uncle associated with the crime associate with a crime that happened 2000 years ago?

      I will try to help you Mr Wonder Wander , because his brothers and Sisters were engaged in the plunder of Palestinian properties in the name of the Jewish people.

      You want to talk about Ukraine? Have you tried to investigate the origin of Jew hatred in Eastern Europe?

      It is about time Jews look into reasons and causes behind anti semitism. Rather than blaming to Goyim for being a bunch of lunatic nutters, time is ripe for Jews to look in the mirror.

      How do you explain the fact that no one has ever called me, my wife or my kids Christ Killers?

      I will give you a hint, being a part of a tribal collective is very problematic indeed.

    • Again Shmuel, Zionism was intended to erect a universal Jew, People like other people (am Kechol ha-amim). It failed because all other people do not want to be other people...

      My take on Christ Killing is not driven by an argument for universalism.

      I ask how is it that people who live today are offended by such an accusation? I argue that there is a devastating ideological continuum between the passion of Christ and the suffering of the Pls people. It is this continuum that makes many Jews feel cornered.

      Tom Pessah and a few others here who are desperate to prove me being a Nazi sympathizer or Christ Killer enthusiast are basically following the pattern that was established by their imaginary ancestors... hence, they are concerned with the Christ killing accusation for a reason. They are engaged in a similar act. One difference, I ain't Christ. i am hardly a lamb :)

    • I do..I call them Kant killers.. In my work i elaborate on the comparison between the Israeli moral conduct and the Kantian categorical imperative. I, for instance, dismiss Asa Kasher's 'IDF's moral code' arguing the 'philosopher' doesn't grasp that moral beings do not follow a 'moral code', they just behave morally. However, most Israelis are not offended being called Kant killers, unlike Herzl, Kant is not a household name the the Jew land.

    • Interesting Shmuel... I obviously agree with you, and yet, there is an element of criticism within Israeli culture that i hardly see anywhere else. People like Shahak, Shamir, Tzabar, Peled (Miko and Nurit) and a few others were/are operating in Israel.

      My bitterest enemies are obviously Red Jews rather than the Blue & White ones...I guess that they hate me because i reflect on Jewishness (J ideology)... Israelis can cope with it, Jewish Marxists can't..

    • Hello Tree, i answered along..

      It just occurred to me that our particular Zionists commenting here are some of the least self-reflective people I have come in contact with.

      G: This is indeed very interesting because Zionism was initially a moment of self reflection and a manifestation of J Diaspora self loth.

      I’m more likely to see “some real Jewish self-reflection” from Jews who don’t identify with Zionism or Israel in a completely positive way.

      G: I am sorry to say it but Jewish anti Zionism is (in most cases ) even less self reflective than Zionism.This is a common and general problem with progressive discourses... The progressive regard oneself as chosen and defines the foe as reactionary.

      Shmuel, David Samel, Danaa, Phil, Adam and others do the “Jewish self-reflection” thing. Hophmi, eeee, jonah, jon s and others don’t, and Richard Witty doesn’t even understand the concept or he would have self-imploded years ago. WJ gives off an air of self-reflection, but when it comes down to it, its really more of a plea for others to listen to him and respect his wants and his fears rather than an inner reflection on what makes him tick and why.

      G: i obviously cannot comment, i do not know any of the above. I have been monitoring Jewish progressive discourse for a decade and i am not impressed. However, I enjoyed talking to . Weiss because he admitted a certain level of confusion or dilemma.

    • These 2 books (Elon's and Szelezkine's) had a significant impact on my way of thinking.

    • I think that we are getting somewhere..

      I am interested in Jewish secular tribalism. I see it as a supremacist discourse and for the matter, Zionism or Israelism are just a private cases of the above. For me the Jewish progressive discourse is as exclusive as Zionism (clearly not as violent).

      Mohamed form Gaza cannot settle in Israel for Israel is the Jewish state, but he also cannot join 'Jews for Peace' or 'Jews for Justice' in London or NYC since these groups are racially or ethnically oriented.

      The question is simple, can you engage in a universal discourse while maintaining or operating within a tribal discourse?

    • Again you simply do not know your history.

      Nazis schleped Jews out of Europe because they clearly wanted to live in a Jew free Zone. Yet, even Zionist historians agree that there was no master plan to 'kill' the Jews at least not until 1942 (and some historian would argue that not even then)..as late as 1944 Nazis negotiated with Zionist bodies a safe exist for Hungarian Jews (read about the Kastner Affair).

      But then the question I ask, is what happened then, if they wanted Europe free of Jews, why did they march them back at the end of the war? This is the question and please try to answer it. I guess you can't.

      For the record , I can...

    • Pessah, i am not a native English speaker, but as far as I am aware astute means having an ability to accurately assess situations or people and turn this to one’s advantage. It is Wagner's personal interest that comes into play here. However, one has to be slightly retarded to miss the sarcasm in this given paragraph. It refers to Wagner as an 'astute meshige' ... how can you miss it?

    • Tx so much Woody. I was busy here all day with other things but followed you and MB's well reasoned arguments. It was fun. I have a lot to learn from you. ..

      I hardly blog myself.. I tour most of my life...Thanks for your support and integrity.

    • I am with you Annie. I saw an attempt to discuss the issues but clearly discussion was hijacked.

      By the way, I differentiate between Zionism and Israel. End of Zionism is nice idea, but it doesn't mean the end of Israel brutality. Israel has developed life of it own. a very interesting topic of its own...

    • No Pessah, we don't try again.

      You assemble your own sentences out of my text and then you want me to explain it to you. This is either mad, funny or pathetic. There is no such a procedure.

      The paper you are quoting from was published on thousands of outlets. It is also part of my new book. It is totally clear and very well argued. You will have to make an effort and it may as well be possible that you are not clever enough. Clearly your interpretation of my words is ludicrous.

      By the way, I didn't call you 'dumb' or 'incompetent' but reading you I can imagine why you feel as such.

    • Afterthoughts
      Hello everybody, I think that I addressed all the questions to do with the Holocaust, Christ killing, Wagner , death march and so on.. And yet, it seems as if only just a few of you were brave to tackle some of the very interesting topics that were raised in the interview I conducted with Phil Weiss.

      In the interview, Weiss came with some very interesting statements about Jews, their self-interests and Jewish tribalism..

      I would really like to know what do you think about Jewish self interests. Id there such a thing? Is it a collective notion or is it something you feel individually? Do you feel tribal, are you a tribe? I would like you to prove to me that you can transcend yourself beyond the Holocaust, Passover and Maza balls.

      I want to see some real Jewish self reflection.

      Please do not disappoint me..

    • Tom, unless you really learn how to quote genuinely and profoundly, it is pretty impossible to take you seriously. You have to learn to quote within context and to provide a URL reference.

      You refer these words to me. You say; he (Gilad) "agrees with Wagner that Jews were only capable of producing money-making music and not works of art,.” You simply lie, I checked it out

      In the piece Wagner Again..This is what is say
      link to thetruthseeker.co.uk

      "Wagner's music is considered taboo in Israel, it is years since he made it to top 40's in the Jewish state. Wagner also held views that are far from being popular amongst Jews. He once wrote that Jews were only capable of producing money-making music and not works of art. I guess that Israelis do not like meshiges with an astute reading of the socio-economy of the show business. "

      I detect anywhere any form of agreement with Wagner's statement, can you help me?

      You should learn to transcend beyond your natural tendencies and try to tell the truth...

      I guess that the Christ killer topic has been discussed enough on this thread. I save myself from going through it again...

    • Tom and Woody, you may note that in my quotes I speak about Christ killing in past tense.

      The "sweeping exoneration of the Jewish people for the death of Jesus Christ" is totally irrelevant to the point. I ask how is it that people who live today are even concerned with such an accusations.
      Would Italians take the blame for the crime on behalf of the Romans?
      I don't think so...

      I try to deal with this question and I am still satisfied with my answer. Those who are offended by the Christ killer accusation are those who are engaged in a similar crime (total abuse of Palestinians).

    • I am going to do many of those in the fall...

    • I can cope with it. I have for years now.

    • I think that Tom doesn't understand what the word narrative stands for within a scholarly discourse. To make it simple, A Narrative is an attempt to present or describes a coherent sequence of events or facts. Clearly different narratives pick different events and deny others. In general discourse is in itself a set of boundaries and I guess that it is clear beyond doubt what should be the boundaries according to Tom...

    • Tom, in case you do not know, even the most radical Zionist Shoa scholars admit that there was no Nazi plan to murder the Jews until 1942 (Wannsee Conference). Your knowledge of WWII is slightly limited.

      Also you will make yourself a good favour if you make an attempt to understand the texts you quote from.

      As tragic as it may be for some, it is pretty impossible to settle the 'Judenrein' narrative with a 'death march' in a single historical coherent reading of the war. If the Nazis wanted the Jews out, why did they schlep them back at the end of the war. It is far from being clear why a defeated army is engaged in such a project.

      One answer is provided by Shoa Scholar Israel Gutman (whom I quote in my paper) .. the prisoners , according to Gutman, actually joined the march voluntarily. Needles to say that some survivors who participated in the march deny Gutman's testimony. One of those is Hajo Meyer, who told me himself that this wasn't the case.

      The message is clear. The holocaust better be treated as an historical chapter and debated openly. The people who stop us from doing it are the bitterest enemies of humanity and humanism. History must be visited and revisited, it must be reviewed and revised!!!

    • Hello there.. I must admit that i stand behind every word above. Can you please brief me and the others what is it that you do not agree with?

      I realise you do not want us to be free talking about the Shoa. Do you also insist that discussing the birth moment of Christianity should also be prohibited?

      The point in the article you quote is that some Jews are concerned with Christ killing accusation because Israel is killing Christ(s) on a daily basis. We call it the passion of the Palestinians...

      At the time , there was another progressive Jew who questioned me about the topic.

      The exchange was published on CP.. it is pretty funny
      link to counterpunch.org

      Hi Gilad,
      Lenni: People tell me so many things about you, that I decided to get some answers straight from the horse's mouth, as we Yanks say.

      Gilad: Hi Lenni, I do appreciate it!

      Lenni: Are you a Christian?

      Gilad: Not that it is your business (in case you didn't know, Christianity is not pedophilia, it is allowed these days), however, I am an ex Jew. I didn't formally join any organised religion and this includes: Islam or Christianity as well as your UK Bundist friends' version of Talmudic Marxism (a religion rather than an ideology).

      Lenni: Was Jesus human only, or divine in whole or part?

      Gilad: What a pathetic question Lenni. How am I supposed to know? Do you know? Having been trained in philosophy, I will try to help you to refine your question. What you want to ask is whether I BELIEVE that Jesus was divine.
      My answer, Mr. Brenner, is very very simple. I do not engage in questions having to do with divinity. And my own belief is irrelevant because I am not religious. Yet, I do respect the FACT that very many people around me believe that Jesus was divine. Unlike you and your UK friends, I do respect other people's beliefs. In fact I respect any form of spiritual activity. I admire people who are inspired by divinity. I admire Torah Jews, who are the only noticeable Jewish collective resistance to Zionism. In case you ask yourself where I find divinity, my answer is very simple: Coltrane, Stravinsky and Bach, but this changes often.

      Lenni: Was he (Jesus) the messiah? Is he coming again? Do you accept the New Testament as divinely inspired?

      Gilad: Lenni, do I look like the Pope? How am I supposed to know whether Jesus was the Messiah? Again, do you know the answers? My affair with Jesus is rather metaphysical. I regard Jesus as a critical ethical awakening. For me Christ is all about loving your neighbour. Jesus is the birth of western universal humanism (as we know it). Following Hegel, I am inspired by the notion of Otherness, and 'Master Slave Dialectic'. However, the notion of Otherness is nothing but Christ's heritage. I suggest that you think about it for a while.

      I would like to mention as well that your dismissal of Christianity and religion in general is rather disconcerting. However, without me being Christian, I must insist to remind you and your half a dozen UK followers that the days when Jews chased Christians are over.

      Lenni: Did you write:

      "I would suggest that perhaps we should face it once and for all; the Jews were responsible for the killing of Jesus who, by the way, was himself a Palestinian Jew. But then two questions should be asked:

      1 - How is it that people living today feel accountable or chased for a crime committed by their great great ancestors almost 2,000 ago? I assume that those Jews who get angry when blamed for killing Jesus are those who identify themselves with Jesus's killers. Those who would commit this murderous act today.

      Those Jews are called Zionists and they are already advancing into their sixth decade of inhuman crimes against the Palestinian people and the Arab world.
      Zionism, for those who do not know, is a repetition of the darkest age of the Jewish Biblical era."

      Gilad: Yes indeed, these are my words and I stand by them.

      Lenni: Does any living Jew have any responsibility for Jesus's death?

      Gilad: Lenni, did you lose your capability to grasp a very simple text? I would really like you to present just how my text implies that I accuse contemporary Jews for killing Christ or for being responsible for it. In fact the text says the complete opposite. I ask: "How is it that people living today feel accountable or chased for a crime committed by their great great ancestors almost 2,000 ago?" In other words, I find it astonishing that people today happen to be offended by such accusations.

      Lenni: Am I responsible? Do I have to atone for his death? Do I have to accept that he rose from the dead?

      Gilad: Lenni, do I look like a shrink? I really leave this question to you. It is you who should answer whether you 'feel' responsible or not. By no means does my text imply that you or anyone else is responsible. The text says that those who are offended are "those who identify themselves with Jesus's killers. Those who would commit this murderous act today." "Accordingly, it is you who should ask yourself whether you would commit such a crime today.
      Once again, you may want to refine your question. The question you want to ask is whether I BELIEVE that you are responsible.

      No is the answer. I don't BELIEVE that you are responsible; moreover I KNOW that you are not responsible. Nevertheless, my text implies as well that you MAY not be as innocent as you wish to be.

      In my text I stress that "I assume that those Jews who get angry when blamed for killing Jesus are those who identify themselves with Jesus's killers. Those who would commit this murderous act today."

      Seemingly, you are 'angry', you feel accused of something without even being accused of anything. On the face of it, the question you have to ask yourself is whether you identify yourself with Christ's killers? I am pretty sure that you don't and you shouldn't be. However, I must tell you that the cyber kangaroo courts that you and your friends hold on a daily basis reminds me too much of the Sanhedrin. I suggest that you think about that as well for a while.

      Somehow you and those like you know what is good for the Palestinians, the Jews, the working class. I occasionally ask myself what it is that makes you so confident. You and your followers indeed have managed to silence some of the most interesting intellects around just because you do not approve their politics or religion. I am afraid to inform you Lenni, that these days are over. Your six UK disciples are working day and night for more than three years doing their very best to silence me, I am afraid to tell you that they fail. In fact they achieve the opposite instead.

      I do not feel sorry for them because they have really zero reputation to defend. But I really feel sorry for you Lenni. You are an important contributor to the Israeli-Palestinian discourse. Your books are more than valuable. You have a reputation to defend. I would like to see you in the midst of the discourse rather than surrounded by the last shadows of echoes of tribal socialism.

      Just before closing this email I will sharpen the differences between us.

      Unlike you Lenni, I believe in freedom of speech. Unlike you Lenni, I am against gatekeeping, I am also against any form of dogmatic or monolithic discourses of hegemony. Unlike you and your friends, I believe that every human subject is entitled to human rights. Unlike you Lenni, I approve of the Hamas. Unlike you Lenni, I understand that working class politics has very little relevance in Arabia.

      Yet, I have never tried to silence anyone, on the contrary. I will fight for your right to speak your mind.

      Lenni: Thanks, in advance, for your time and trouble in this regard,

      Gilad: It was my entire pleasure.

      [email protected]
      London, February 11, 2007

    • Tx for that. and it is crucial to mention that Prof' Israel Gutman was the most respected Israeli Shoa scholar at the time.

    • Hello Everybody ..Gilad here.
      Phil, thanks for referring to the interview. I think that it was a good one and you were very brave.

      The others, in this article link to aljazeerah.info
      or in any of my writing there is no Holocaust denial.

      Indeed truth seeking is a primary value for me and it is very different from any form of denial. If the Holocaust is the new Jewish religion, it would be right to question it theologically. If you don't think so, please offer an educated reason..

      Also it would be pretty effective if any of you may define what Holocaust denial entails.

      Just for the record, in case you do not know. I am an international Jazz artist. I perform regularly in Germany, Austria and other countries were Holocaust denial laws are in place. Needless to say that I've never been stopped or even questioned.

      I want the Holocaust to be treated as an historical chapter, any objection? if you do object, please offer an educated reasoning.

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