Total number of comments: 948 (since 2010-11-24 16:17:48)
GuiltyFeat
In case anyone was wondering, I was banned from leaving comments on this site in October 2011 without warning or right of redress. I can only imagine that members of the noisy clique agitated to have me banned for expressing my opinion that another commenter who suggested that Jews run Hollywood was a "low-grade anti-Semite". I stand by that opinion about that user having seen nothing to make me change it. In addition there are a small number of other users on this site who, in my opinion, demonstrate a clear antipathy towards Jews which they attempt to hide behind a perfectly legitimate antipathy for Zionism and the state of Israel. They delegitimize the valuable contribution that the people who run this site and the people that learn from it make to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Fair enough. I did read Les's comment twice and I think he did mean that modern Hebrew is closer to German than biblical Hebrew.
I do enjoy a good book on philology, funnily enough, so I will look out for Zuckermann's book based on your recommendation, although I worry that my עברית is not good enough to get the most out of it.
"With whose money? "
Get a grip, dude.
Are you seriously claiming the the Jews of America, all 2% of them, have more money to invest in charter schools than any other ethnic group?
Just plain bollocks.
Well far be it from me to argue with someone who decides to transcribe his Hebrew name as "Ghil'ad" rather than the more commonly used "Gilad" but would you at least agree that Les's characterization above was woefully off the mark?
Simply wrong. Modern Hebrew has absolutely nothing to do with German and very little to do with Yiddish.
It is wholly based on classical, or biblical, Hebrew.
"I remember that post, and I know how Chaos writes. He wasn’t calling you a killer, he was calling Israel, and probably by extension, all Israelis."
Yes he was, go back and read it again.
All that hot air and you still dodged the question, tree.
I agree that a lot of Hollywood studios are run by people who self-identify as Jews.
Personally I don't think it matters at all. It's just happenstance. Do you agree? Do you think the world would be better if some of those Hollywood studios were not run by people who self-identify as Jews.
Take your time, but when you answer, just try to start with a simple 'yes' or 'no', please so everyone can see for once just what you mean.
That's not what I am doing and I believe you know this. I am more than willing to debate specific laws which you think correspond to laws in place in Apartheid South Africa or Jim Crow America or even 1930s Germany.
I believe I have proved myself willing to engage at that level.
What I cannot abide are the blanket statements about how Israel is a Nazi state without any attempt to dissect this damning and offensive accusation. It is bandied about with the simple intention of getting a reaction and causing offence.
Here's an example:
"I personally have no problem shouting from rooftops that israel is a nazi state." link to mondoweiss.net
It's not an argument, it's a rant. It's a rant calculated to give offence. If you let it stand, as you and the mods do, you are saying that Mondoweiss has no problem with people leaving comments that contain no substantive argument and that are designed to offend Jews and other victims of the Nazi genocide. I find that shameful. You don't.
I have no problem with you criticizing what he says. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a problem with it either as he keeps coming back for another kicking. Nevertheless I do object the the instant rewriting of his words in parodic form. It would be simpler and more intellectually honest to ban him from commenting than to presuppose everything that he says in the future is already a lie and deserving of ridicule.
It's a cheap gag and it makes the site look like a place that enjoys cheap gags. That's what I mean when I say you (specifically you, Annie, together with Phil and one or two others) set the tone.
Either ban Witty or address/ignore his posts like anybody else's. Singling him out for persistent parody makes that an acceptable standard of response. You can't then complain when someone you don't agree with does it to someone else... or at least when you do, you become a hypocrite.
Make sense?
I already cited it in an earlier post, but here it is again in all its absurd and vicious glory.
link to mondoweiss.net
This is one of a huge number of ad hominems that have been persistently hurled at me and outright lies that have been written about me since I first started commenting. I'm OK with it as long as I get to sling some back, although mine are usually far more elegant. If Chaos, Taxi, Mooser and others want to apologize, I'm happy to apologize also and conform to the tone set elsewhere on the board.
"it is the climate that is my concern."
Agreed. I believe, though, that it is a climate that you personally have encouraged as long as it suited you and only now are upset about because one person threw a hissy fit.
You have never condemned the dull and pointless ad hominem parodies that follow every one of Richard Witty's dull posts. You have never condemned Chaos4700 for calling me the "number one killer of Palestinians". And you have never condemned the persistent and offensive description of Israelis as Nazis.
You built this climate with your own hypocrisy. are you willing to take responsibility for any of this or is this too all the fault of a few uppity Zionists?
Thanks. I'm guessing you didn't mention it though in your heartfelt note to Phil about targeting, right?
Also, like him, I know by your responses there there are at least two people here that do give a shit about what I believe, at least enough to take the time to try and refute it.
I'm touched. Mwah!
"jews have made an enormous contribution to entertainment. enormous. embrace it."
Thanks for that. It's a good defence and I actually believe that you are being sincere when you say it.
I don't believe that's what tree, chaos, taxi or H mean when they say Jews control Hollywood/MSM/Finance/.
If any of them would like to prove me wrong, by remarking positively on the disproportionate success that people from my minority religion have had in these areas, I will be happy to withdraw my accusations.
I asked you because very soon after this article was posted you praised its author.
When I pointed out inconsistencies which look to be fabrications, I turned back to you for comment.
Unsurprisingly, I still don't have one which leads me to believe that you have no problem with people basing their posts on lies.
Your silence and refusal to discuss the very facts of the original post puts the lie to your constant carping about threadjacking.
I am addressing the veracity of the original post. You are ignoring my genuine concerns because of who I am not because of what they are.
That makes you a hypocrite.
@Annie
Your concern about targeting is pitiful.
Eljay contends that I am the subject of far more serious and more numerous insults. Do you have anything you want to say to him? Thought not.
Also please note, for the umpteenth time that the very first time I saw this chap he responded to one of my comments as follows:
"luckily for the rest of mankind, no one gives a shit about what you believe."
There may well have been targeting involved but not in the direction that gets you all worked up, you hypocrite.
That's no excuse for ignorance, I'm afraid.
"the chief tenet of “Jew” religion is veneration of the State"
Really, since when? Can you provide a biblical source or an accepted talmudic source declaring this the chief tenet?
Don't be obtuse, Annie.
When I say there are lots of Jews in Hollywood it's a mark of innocent pride. Like saying there are lots of left-handed pitchers when I'm one too. It's meaningless. It's fun. I don't know these people even though we all call ourselves Jews. They are not in league together. We are not in league together.
When people here write Jews control Hollywood they mean that they find something sinister about it. Deny it if you want. I can't be bothered anymore.
For a site that is rightfully sensitive about orientalism and Islamophobia, you are being incredibly insensitive about the clear bigotry behind statements like these. I don't know why I should be surprised you continue to show yourself to be blinkered and argumentative for no good reason.
How do you feel about ad hominem comments and the people who make them like when Chaos4700 said I was the "number one killer of Palestinians"?
Also look just below where I have made an effort to get this thread back on track and where you have pointedly refused to engage. Why's that?
MRW, you dope. I can't even be bothered to explain my argument to you again. Go to the other post and read it there.
It comes down to this. Saying "Jews control Hollywood" is a reductionist and racist statement. The facts are that some Jews control some companies that form part of the industry collectively titled "Hollywood".
Saying "Jews control Hollywood" is racist because you're implying that the Jewishness of the businessmen and women who control Hollywood is more important than their business acumen, their commitment to their shareholders or their commitment to the paying consumers.
You're assuming that competing companies that happen to be controlled by people who self-identify as Jews have a common agenda that supersedes their responsibility as bosses.
I know this is too complex for you to understand. In the other thread there are idiots claiming that's not what they meant, but they, like you, are being disingenuous.
Jew counting is for racists and fools (... and Jews, of course, but for us it's a harmless hobby, because we don't draw racist inferences from the results).
Still waiting. Annie?
Bumblebye,
Since I left the UK in 1996, knife crime and gun crime have risen alongside teenage pregnancy and binge drinking.
Your government has taken you into at least one illegal war resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians and hundreds of British servicemen and women.
You've also enjoyed the worst economic recession in memory, near-record unemployment and a return to the riots and social unrest of the early 80s.
You also manged to elect your first member of the BNP to the European Parliament. Yay Britain.
I'm delighted that you can turn a blind eye to all that and criticize Israel. It shows real fortitude. In the meantime, I can assure you, I'm very happy with the choice I made and the lives my children live here in Israel.
If you read the post I linked to my accusation of antisemitism had nothing to do with criticism of the government of Israel and everything to do with a racist comment about Jews in Hollywood. Perhaps you want to revisit it before you accuse me of things I haven't done or said.
Also, I am interested in your opinion of Chaos4700 and his description of me personally as the "number one killer of Palestinians".
Danaa, I have not written a single lie about myself since I started writing here.
You are a peculiarly humorless person, Danaa, who has now repeated more than once the flippant joke I made about not wanting a dog because I feel too old to pick up another creature's poop as somehow indicative of a deep flaw in my Zionism. I think that makes you a bit of a kook. Can we drop the pet angle and try to make the conversation more substantive, less speculative and less ad hominem, please?
I posted above a link to the post where another commenter suggested that Jews run Hollywood and the reason he knows that to be true is because he read about it in the LA Times. I said that I believed him to be a low-grade anti-Semite. I stand by my opinion.
It has nothing to do with him being an Israeli or a Palestinian or anything else and everything to do with him being ignorant and, in my opinion, a low-grade anti-Semite.
Until you call out Chaos by name and tell him what you think of his BS like you did to me, sure, you're a hypocrite.
I'm not sure your interpretation of the Spanish law is correct.
I take it to mean that anyone who self-identifies as a Sephardic Jew is entitled to acquire Spanish citizenship. I can't imagine anyone being asked to legally trace their bloodline back 550 years, can you?
Which would mean that Spanish law is just as racist as Israeli law, no? So not unique then.
But leaving that argument aside, I'm not totally blind to your problem with the Israeli right of return for Jews.
From my point of view it is an inclusionist law which offers refuge to the members of a tiny minority religion guaranteeing them citizenship should they ask for it. This minority religion has like many minorities suffered persecution over the years. In many parts of the world, the members of this minority are still despised and distrusted. Israel exists as a safe haven for Jews ensuring that they can bring up their children and pursue their careers without fear of religious persecution.
I don't mean that this should come at the expense of another people. I believe the victims of the nakba should be properly compensated for their losses, but I see nothing sinister in the idea of a Jewish country guaranteeing the rights of Jews. There are Muslim countries and there are Catholic countries. You will argue that they don't exclude people of other religions, but I could argue back that they don't have to because their religious majority is unassailable. Their religious values (and whatever faux-separation of church and state they lay claim to) will never be threatened demographically.
Even in Israel, the Jewish State, Jews make up around 75% of the population. The proportion of Christians in each of the top 20 Christian countries and the proportion of Muslims in each of the top 20 Muslim countries is over 90%. - You have a problem with Israel's law, but the reality in the rest of the world is far more exclusive regardless of legislation.
If I ever have to go to court to argue that nothing I have written could impact the perceived honesty and integrity of a lawyer, I'll gladly roll those dice. Of course you'd need to extradict me first which would be tricky for a civil case like this, no? What do I know? I'm no high-flying lawyer from Ohio... but then according to your profile, nor are you, or is that not what you meant by "former"?
Dude our very first interaction was when you picked one of my comments and responded:
“luckily for the rest of mankind, no one gives a shit about what you believe.”
If you want to get all prissy now, you're within your rights, but you set the tone of our conversation with your uncalled for aggression.
I don't know how much your default position of hectoring sarcasm helps you with your legal career, but here it just makes you look like an ass.
My offer of a coffee still stands, next time you're in town. Cheers.
No need. The law of return refers to Jews not Israelis or people of Israeli descent. You can find a complete rundown of the current system here: link to en.wikipedia.org
I would be very interested to know what kind of evidence one needs to provide to be admitted to Spain as a Sephardic Jew. Do they accept converts?
It's outrageous for me to say that someone is a low-grade anti-Semite and yet you have nothing to say about Chaos calling me the "number one killer of Palestinians".
When your criticism is even handed, I'll make sure my considered opinions are less hurtful.
This is just more of the rank hypocrisy that MW has come to stand for. Be as vicious as you want but only towards Zionists, everyone else is too fragile. Bollocks.
By the way, I'm still waiting for a response to my original question where I asked Mr. Levy to provide evidence of his statement that Mr. Schivone claims to have one Jewish grandparent making him eligible for immigration under the Israeli right of return.
I looked and I couldn't find anything so I think there are a couple of paragraphs of the post which are in need of correction. To be clear, I'm not saying I couldn't find evidence of his having a Jewish grandparent, I'm saying I couldn't find evidence of him making this claim for himself. I believe it is a pure invention of Mr Levy's. I leave it to others to decide whether or not these corrections impact the argument the post is making.
Annie I'm sure will accuse me, yet again, of trying to change the subject when I am very specifically challenging the veracity of the original post. She hates it when one of her heroes gets caught speaking out of turn and she never concedes... ever.
My accusation that H (he made me promise not to use his name in one of my comments again) is a "low-grade anti-semite" is based on this comment: link to mondoweiss.net
I explained why in my response to it. I'm not an attorney so all the talk of libel and what is actionable goes way over my head I'm afraid. From what I remember from journalism school he would have to prove pecuniary loss based on my accusation, but that may be a British thing only.
By the way here's a pleasant reminder of the very first comment of his I ever read. It was directed rather rudely at me.
"luckily for the rest of mankind, no one gives a shit about what you believe." Charming. link to mondoweiss.net
I am not ready to change my opinion yet, but I'm sorry if the accusation stings. Since joining up here I have regularly been called a thief and a murderer and watched while every Israeli (by which it's clear the intent is every Jewish Israeli) is branded a Nazi. To be clear "every Israeli" includes my wife, my children, my brother, my niece and nephews, my colleagues, my plumber and my late great Aunt. According to Chaos and others we are all Nazis. It's a fabulous starting point for conversation.
Annie is fantastically good at throwing her toys out of the cot when threads don't go the way she wants, but she has never once commented on the hateful and vicious bile that pours out of a couple of particularly spiteful and also , in my opinion, Jew-hating, commenters.
She didn't comment when I, specifically, was called the "number one killer of Palestinians" and she won't answer these this comment now except to weasel out of her responsibilities as a senior and much-respected member of the community. (I can already see her denying this right under her post where she takes it upon herself to complain on everyone's behalf to Phil - ridiculous.)
link to mondoweiss.net
I am pleased that Annie has chosen to write to her pal Phil about how to deal with "false accusations of bigotry" although I have a feeling that, as usual, she will only concern herself with the accusations that go in one direction.
That depends on how you define Armenian origin. And how you determine who is a Sephardic Jew.
Neither of those groups require a traceable connection to the lands that offer them easier immigration.
link to mondoweiss.net
- I counted 2 "sorry"s and a few apologies as well.
You're clearly a bit of an egomaniac and certainly an aggressive and mean commenter.
But the reason I'm done with you is your comment on the Captain Israel thread which together with your crazy conspiracy theories makes you look like a low-grade anti-semite who genuinely believes that the Jews are running the world and doing a bad job of keeping that a secret.
Life is simply too short to spend time debating with people who harbor irrational feelings about Jews. I've filtered out most of the other anti-Semites here and you, I'm afraid, made the list.
One thing we can agree on is that I am not your enemy.
"What you posted about me was despicable. Forgive me that I expected you to either stand by it or apologize."
I did apologize at the first opportunity. But now I'm done with you. Ta ra.
Not so. Check the link.
"(people of) Sephardic Jewish origin also have the right to apply for nationality after a year of legal residency in Spain. Upon the rediscovery of Sephardi Jews during the campaigns of General Juan Prim in Northern Africa, the Spanish governments have taken friendly measures towards the descendants of the Jews expelled from Spain in 1492 under the Alhambra Decree and persecuted by the Spanish Inquisition."
So 550 years after expulsion Sephardic Jews (however that is determined) are given preferential immigration treatment in Spain. Not unique.
"Russia offers citizenship to individuals descended from Russian ancestors who can demonstrate an affinity for Russian culture and, preferably, speak Russian. Concern about Russia's shrinking population prompted the program. Officials estimate that 25 million members of the Russian diaspora are eligible for citizenship. The Foreign Ministry has sent emissaries to countries around the world to urge the descendants of Russian emigrants to return home." It's not clear how many generations back they are willing to accept. Not unique.
"Article 14 of the Constitution of the Republic of Armenia (1995) provides that "[i]ndividuals of Armenian origin shall acquire citizenship of the Republic of Armenia through a simplified procedure." Not unique.
Er... no. You are clearly struggling to understand the thread. I asked whether anyone would denounce the persistent references to Israelis as Nazis.
Eljay did. I'm guessing you won't. I'm guessing it's a comparison you feel perfectly comfortable making.
@justicewillprevail
We've done this one before and you guys lost. Israel is one of several countries that has enacted laws guaranteeing citizenship based on ethnicity. We are not unique. link to en.wikipedia.org
I have no idea who Sydney Levy is apart from the author of this post, but it's a pretty devastating accusation to level at anyone.
So yes, I hereby denounce longliveisrael's description of anyone as a kapo.
I would rather not bandy about Nazi analogies in any context. I don't think they are useful. And I regret my recent flippant use of "Judenrein Palestine" to describe Hamas's plans for Israel. It was meant to be an ironic commentary on the number of Nazi comments that are made about me and all Israelis, but it fell flat and resulted in more vicious Nazi abuse being hurled at Israel than usual.
Any chance you James North or anyone else here will jump in and denounce that kind of crap? Nope, didn't think so. Let me know if you want links.
First off, I want to say that I have no problem with anyone calling themselves anything they want.
As a religious Jew I use the standard of Halachic Judaism to determine who I think is Jewish, but I would not try to impose my standard on anyone else.
Just out of interest, though, could you please provide a link to where Mr. Schivone claims to have a Jewish grandparent? I couldn't find one.
He is still perfectly free to call himself a Jew if he wishes but if he doesn't have a Jewish grandparent and has not undergone a recognized conversion and he is not married to a Jew then he would not be eligible for citizenship under the Israeli Law of Return. Nor would he have been Jewish enough for the Nazis (as you put it) although I'm not sure there were many that self-identified as Jews if they didn't have to in 1930s Germany. You might have to rewrite that part of your post.
Again I have no problem with Mr Schivone calling himself a Jew based on nothing but a whim, but if there is nothing more to it than that, then the questions raised in the Jerusalem Post report still stand and the anecdotal evidence brought by peace activist Valerie Saturen in her letter to Ha'aretz still needs an unequivocal refutation.
Some details here, if you're interested.
link to en.wikipedia.org
"Hey you forgot Norman Finkelstein ;-)"
I can see it now, a whole new superhero franchise - Chomsky and the Fink - two wizened Jews fighting for justice with their unwavering self-belief and a joint disgust at Israel. See how Chomsky ties Zionists up in knots with his laser-generative grammar. Marvel at the Fink as he saves the day again with his mutant lack of tenure.
Magneto led the X-Men for years when Xavier was off somewhere. He went back to being a baddie afterwards. Typical of you, Chaos to see things in a binary fashion with no understanding of the hearts of men.
More poorly researched, rank ignorance from you that will go unapologized for.
Yawn.
Tree, sweetie, how many times do I have to go over the same ground.
I'm not arguing the facts. I'm contesting the assumptions you make based on the facts.
It is a fact that a Jew has a job. It is a racist assumption that this Jew will perform his job in a way that benefits other Jews first rather than his employers.
It is a fact that a Jew owns a company. It is a racist assumption that this Jew will run the company in a way that benefits other Jews over his company's shareholders.
It is a fact that different Jews own different companies, perhaps even competing companies, in a particular industry. It is a racist assumption that these Jews will somehow conspire in a covert manner to make all these companies benefit other Jews before delivering value to their shareholders and doing what they were set up as companies to do.
So when I count Jews I'm saying, "isn't it amazing that one small community can produce so many creative people who have risen to the top of a tough profession?"
When you (and Phil, and others) count Jews, you're saying, "isn't it sinister the way so many co-religionists have taken over a profession that should be a meritocracy? They must be conspiring together to control things and exclude all non-Jews."
Do you see the difference? I take innocent pride in a meaningless statistic which really doesn't impact my life in any way. While you interpret this statistic as proof of a dark conspiracy being perpetrated against you by the alien Jew.
If you're still not convinced that your version of Jew-counting is deeply disturbing, just tell me what proportion of Jewish ownership of Hollywood studios you would feel comfortable with and what kind of legislation you propose to enforce those numbers.
I wasn't sure before, but bringing that tongue-in-cheek article as evidence of anything is a sure sign that you're a boring old, Jew-counting anti-semite.
Yawn, how dull. I thought you had a real opinion about Israel, but it turns out you just hate Jews and think we control the world. Shame, as that kinds runs counter to what your dad tried to teach you, no?
Before you get all sorts of defensive, it's very simple. Chris Rock can do jokes about the differences between Black people and "niggers" but I can't. In the same way that guy from the LA Times and I can make flippant remarks about Jews running stuff, but you can't use them as proof that we're actually running stuff and you just found out because we were too dumb to keep the secret. You're simply a low-grade anti-semite. It's not an accusation I make lightly. On this site I count no more than 4 or 5, (I'd print their names but I reckon this post will get censored anyway) but your last comment rocketed you to the top of the list.
Before I was feeling guilty about not reading your comments because they were too long and boring. Now I'm actively filtering you because you're a racist.
Mods, if you let his comment stand but deny this one, you're idiots and cowards.
Jewish superheroes are nothing new. We've had Ben Grimm, aka the Thing, Kitty Pryde, Ragman, Magneto, Moon Knight and Doc Samson and many others for years.
Captain America (created by Joe Simon and Jack Kirby - both Jews) dated Bernie Rosenthal for years.
Batman (created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger - both Jews) recently reintroduced the character of Batwoman, Kathy Kane, who is explicitly Jewish (and a Lesbian so bonus points there).
Superman (created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster - go on, take a wild guess) is not Jewish, he's Kryptonian (somewhere between Reform and Conservadox if you're keeping score).
Stan Lee, Joe Kubert, Peter David, Neil Gaiman, Brian Michael Bendis - say what you want about Hollywood, comic books is where the Jews made their mark.
Great statement from Gates. Nice to hear from a US politician with actual balls for once. Great response from Kadima, also. Netanyahu must go if we are to move forwards with the peace process.
Woody, you're being specious. Segregation in schools been outlawed in Israel from the birth of the State which considerably pre-dates desegregation in parts of the US.
This school has a predominantly Ethiopian and Russian catchment so it has a predominantly Ethiopian and Russian student body. It is no different from any urban school in the US with a majority black student body.
link to reuters.com
I don't mind when you bring up genuine instances of race bias in Israel, but you've overcooked this one considering the problems your own country has on this issue are far worse.
link to dominionofnewyork.com
- Examples of schools with over 85% African American students. Are they segregated?
link to blackamericaweb.com
Black students are four times as likely to be suspended as white students.
In 1997 Morgan Freeman offered to spend his own money so that his former high school would have an integrated prom where black and white students could socialize together. It took another 11 years for the school to desegregate the prom. So much for "outlawed in the US in the middle of the last century". link to huffingtonpost.com
I was trying to agree with you, dude. Whatever draconian measures Israel used on the flytilla members should be the bare minimum for these mercenary morons.
In my opinion the flytilla was completely harmless and should have been ignored, but these idiots should still be locked up.
I'm not equating the two groups. I'm saying that if you treat the harmless one badly, you should treat the dangerous one worse.
It’s not when you acquire your awareness…it’s what you do with it once you get it.
And yet there's still that nagging doubt that a politically aware woman such as Annie didn't notice any of the injustices being perpetrated anywhere in the world until Israel was the one perpetrating them.
I think that's worth mentioning and I'd love to hear more from Annie about how she managed to "miss" Apartheid.
link to mondoweiss.net
Omar Barghouti clearly admitted to Phil Weiss that he prefers a one state solution, but that he cannot make that the formal aim of the movement for fear of being branded as the person who killed the 2SS. Nevertheless, according to Phil's own words, Barghouti favours the 1ss.
link to bdsmovement.net
This is a search for the term "war crimes" at the bdsmovement.net site. In a world where the Goldstone report, Amnesty, HRW and others carefully reference Hamas war crimes alongside Israel's war crimes, the BDS movement doesn't have one mention of them. Whitewash.
As for BDS being an umbrella movement for both serious people and racists check out these links:
link to stormfront.org
link to radioislam.org
- Great site where you're never more than one click away from proof that the Protocols are real or that the Holocaust was a hoax.
Excellent point, Shmuel. I say these mercenaries should be turned back at the border or put in the same cells as the flytilla participants and then deported.
No Cliff. I'm anti the BDS movement which calls for a one-state solution, whitewashes Hamas war crimes and turns a blind eye to the anti-Semitic elements that use it for cover. I believe boycott can be a useful tool, but it's not a blunt instrument and the BDS movement is simply not sharp enough to wield it correctly.
"as embarrassing as this is to admit i wasn’t aware of aparthied until it was over."
Wow, you're right, that is embarrassing. I'm guessing you have 20 years on me and I was boycotting South African goods and singing "Free Nelson Mandela" for 10 years before the end of Apartheid.
Funny I couldn't find a mention of this over at bdsmovement.net.
No one there wants to suggest a boycott of General Motors? Hypocritical, cherry-picking cowards.
Thanks Donald. I'll try harder to get away from the point scoring kind of comments.
Do you think there'll be a reciprocal attempt by the MW editorial team to get away from the point scoring kind of posts?
I don't understand how Robert Fisk even exists. If you read Mondoweiss, you learn daily how the Zionists control the mainstream media and filter everything through their twisted, Israel-first view. There can be no dissent.
And yet, Robert Fisk, an award-winning journalist, has been living in Beirut for 35 years churning out such detailed critiques of America and Israel that they invented a verb to describe their debunking. It's unbelievable.
Fisk must be a Mossad plant. There's no way he could exist otherwise.
Honestly Annie, no, I can't. We've had this discussion before. The comparison is designed to offend rather than illuminate in each case.
Woody here is your earlier comment which I posted once but which the mods disallowed:
FFS - link to mondoweiss.net
"Exactly. The Israeli is the Nazi to the Palestinian."
Weaseling out now by saying you didn't mean that Israeli's are Nazis, "it's just the Palestinians who think that" doesn't really cut it I'm afraid. Don't bother trying to explain the difference. Better to spend your time instead avoiding such comparisons in the first place.
If the bloody mods had let this go through the first time we wouldn't all be wasting our time on this.
I responded to this once with a link to your comment where you explicitly called Israelis Nazis. The mods saw fit to disallow it. You can search for it yourself now.
But that's not my argument. Any can argue for Palestinian rights. A group coming under the banner of LGBT Palestinians that argues for the rights of Palestinians in Gaza and mentions Israel treatment of Palestinians, but not Hamas's treatment of LGBT Palestinians is not being honest.
I am not asking anyone to self-identify as LGBT Palestinian, but once you make that your rallying call, you cannot ignore what Hamas would do to you if you were to arrive triumphantly into Gaza City having liberated Palestinians from the evils of the occupation.
Nah, I just thought it rhymed nicely (Judenrein Palestine). Over-sensitive much?
I don't think of the Palestinians as Nazis at all. Unlike many of the commenters here who cannot post without calling Israelis Nazis, I don't think those kinds of reductionist insults are terribly useful.
"Taxi September 5, 2011 at 10:47 am"
This must be a record for a single post aimed at attacking another commenter's personality with no regard for the surrounding thread or any kind of facts.
Taxi, I hope you don't mind, but in future, I'm just going to filter your comments out as you are clearly a troll with no intention of contributing intelligently to the thread. You should feel free to do the same to my comments... in fact I highly recommend it.
Annie, I'm pretty sure it isn't. So do you agree with my assessment of Hamas's goals or not?
Interesting. You're willing to argue terminology, but you're OK with Hamas wanting a Judenrein Palestine. Nice.
Absofugginlutely. I call on Israel to end the occupation and to stop using violence against anyone and the Palestinians of the West Bank and Gaza in particular.
Disingenuous bollocks that I know you don't believe. Lebanon didn't deny work to hundreds of thousands of Palestinians for 40 years to "maintain a viable Palestinian community". Neither did Assad shell Latakia last month and drive 5000 Palestinians from their homes just so that they could more easily return to their homeland.
Woody, please be serious for once.
Do you not agree that Hamas's stated goal is control of the entire state of Palestine from Jordan to the sea? Is this not a colonialist goal?
I already answered this question, but I'll try to elaborate. I believe that the occupation is wrong and must be ended. I believe that is Israel's responsibility. I believe that the collective punishment that is the siege of Gaza is wrong and that it must end. I believe that is Israel's responsibility.
I believe that successive Israeli governments have been able to argue that the siege of Gaza is necessary and that the separation barrier saves lives to the majority of Israeli voters because Hamas continues to commit war crimes against Israeli civilians. I believe this is Hamas's responsibility.
I understand the argument that Hamas is resisting the occupation, but they have chosen a path of resistance that increases the likelihood of Palestinians suffering than decreases it. Please don't misunderstand me. Israel is responsible for the fact that Palestinians suffer. But Hamas (and others, Lebanon, Syria) are responsible for making that suffering worse.
I do not absolve Israel of their sins. But I also will not absolve Hamas of theirs.
For all the people here that stand up proudly in support of non-violent resistance there is very little said negatively about Hamas and the PRC who repeatedly enact out violent resistance.
I am no fan of BDS, but if Hamas were to change its goals to non-violent resistance and align itself with the principles of the BDS movement things would improve considerably on all sides.
So yes, I think Hamas is complicit in Palestinian suffering. I think the governments of the countries that have failed to absorb or even provide equal rights to Palestinian refugees are complicit in the suffering of Palestinians. I think it is more important to many people that Palestinians suffer than that there be a political resolution that retains any kind of Jewish state.
So Zionism prevents Palestinians from flourishing in the exact same way that anti-Zionism does. Neither movement values the rights of the Palestinians to any great degree.
Israelis love Israel more than they love the Palestinians, that much is clear (and not terribly unusual). The problem is that Hamas (like many commenters here) hates Israel more than it loves the Palestinians.
Agreed.
And I wholly support their protest for fair treatment as Palestinians. Nevertheless, I find it intellectually dishonest for them to protest under the banner of Palestinian homosexuals without condemnation of Hamas being a fundamental tenet of their movement when Palestinian homosexuals are persecuted under Hamas.
The BDS movement, to my knowledge, very specifically does not criticize Hamas for their war crimes against Israel or their consistent persecution of gay Palestinians in Gaza. Supporting BDS without calling for the leaders of Hamas to be tried alongside Israelis for war crimes is intellectually dishonest.
I read the links in your post and they are well written and measured, but this constant refusal to address the harm the elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza would gladly visit on all homosexuals of any race or creed simply cannot stand. I appreciate the argument against "pinkwashing" of Israeli sins. In my opinion groups like Al-Qaws are guilty of the exact same thing for Hamas.
Yeah, sorry. I was trying to look for a corollary for "Zionist colonialism". I'm not a big fan of the phrase. I guess "Hamas colonialism" would have worked just as well.
No more or less than I think Zionism is.
Israeli society is fragmented. Settlers do not represent Israeli society as a whole.
I think Israeli society is capable of secularism and if allowed to progress organically without the fear of Hamas Islamo-fascism - Palestinians could flourish.
(I didn't change that last bit intentionally.)
Yes Chaos always mysteriously disappears from the comments thread when you mention the tragic truth that he would be as welcome in Hamas-run Gaza as a pork chop at a bris.
Chaos, tell us how you feel about the Palestinians electing a a government that persecutes homosexuals, please. I think it's terrible, don't you agree?
(Chaos will either not answer or cut and paste one of his previous rants about how evil Israel is. He simply cannot face the truth. He is the most intellectually dishonest and gratuitously insulting commenter on MW.)
I don't object in the same way when Israelis are called fascists. I don't even consider the accusation of Apartheid to be in itself offensive.
One of the fundamental goals of Nazism was the genocide of the Jews. In leveling the accusation broadly at all Israel (by which they mean Jewish Israel) the aim is to offend not to illuminate a particular facet of Israeli law.
If you want to bring an example of something that happens in Israel that you believe has a corollary in Nazi Germany, we can have that debate, but that is not what happens here. People like Taxi make declarations that all Israelis are Nazis and that Israel is a Nazi state. It's aggressive and it's designed to hurt. It's not a point of view, it's an example of hate speech.
If you can point to a systematic process by which millions of people in Israel are being transported to death camps and then gassed and incinerated with the informed consent of the entire country, then I will consider it a fair comparison. Until then you need to stick to specific issues you have with Israeli domestic policy and highlight why you believe them to be misguided.
No, you blockhead. Make fun of IDF soldiers all you like. Calling them Nazis, on the other hand is a specific insult designed to offend Jews.
Either you're being dense or you're just an insensitive prick.
Intent, intent, intent.
No member of Hamas has ever said we fire rockets into civilian areas to scare people, we never meant them to hit anyone.
Do you deny that the purpose of rockets fired from Gaza is to cause maximum casualties even if they're crap at doing so? Intent.
The rockets have a clear intent and that is to cause physical harm.
No one on this thread has provided any evidence that the intent of the person firing the tear gas canister was to cause physical harm.
Tree, you're a bit late to the party, but you're certainly not helping your case with this weak-ass, already-argued-and-lost drivel.
So Cliff, Holocaust humour designed to offend Jews, but no actual evidence of anything to support your point? What a mensch.
Please show me where I defended anyone in a spirited manner. More of your lies, Chaos, sweetie? You do try to fit one in with every comment, don't you?
I will say again, I have seen no evidence that proves the tear gas canister was fired with the intention of causing physical harm.
I will go further and say that you have no evidence that proves this either. As usual the burden of proof is on the side making the claim and that's you, baby.
So I'll keep it simple and ask a straightforward question (the kind you never answer). What evidence do you have that the soldier who fired this tear gas canister did it with the intention of causing injury?
Without such evidence (and I realize you have no idea what the word evidence means) you have no good reason to claim that Ms Henochowicz was targeted and maimed as part of an ongoing policy of violence against peaceful demonstrators. You can propose it as one of several hypotheses, but that's a long way from a fact wouldn't you agree?
Eljay, CigarGod, you do know I can hear you, right?
I will try to do better about admitting when I've been trumped. It's always much easier to slink off and look for another thread and there are still people here who just hurl abuse whatever I write so I'm kinda loathe to publicly back down every time I think someone else makes a strong point. There are far greater numbers of Israel bashers than Zionists on this board and I have never seen anyone, apart from eljay and occasionally Donald even acknowledge my impeccable grammar let alone concede that I might have a worthwhile opinion.
I can put up with the crap that is hurled my way and the lies that people have told about me, but I am always disappointed when people like Annie and Phil, who kinda set the tone for the whole site, ignore the ad hominems as long as they are directed at Zionists. It shows a lack of moral courage in my opinion.
Haytham, sorry for not responding sooner, but I've been doing other things.
Sorry also if you feel unfairly picked on, I didn't really mean to single you out. Your threat to "start picking every one of my posts apart, word by word" is truly chilling (no snark) so I will do whatever it takes to back down from this mini war of words I seem to have started.
Next time you're over let me know and I'll buy you a coffee to apologize properly.
You've called me a coward which I guess is fair after I said your posts show a clear bias. I think the accusation that I go for low-hanging fruit is also probably fair. Who (apart from you, clearly) has the time to refute each sentence? Plus there are way more of "you" than there are of me. Sometimes when I comment 5 or 6 people respond with one or two of those being nothing but ad hominem abuse so apologies again if you feel neglected. Your posts are often too long and nitpicky (you're a lawyer, right that's still further down the international pariah scale than Israeli... for now) for me to parse so I tend to weave and jab rather than get into a long-winded tussle which is only going to be attacked by 5 or 6 more abusive commenters.
As per your request, I promise not to use your name in a post again.
Maybe I picked the wrong guy when I said you have never called for the leaders of Hamas to be tried for their war crimes. I certainly can't be bothered to read through all your posts. Apologies if you're not one of those. I guess I just meant that you sound like one of them, but my bad for making an assumption.
The one post of yours that I did find problematic amongst an unhealthy number of sarcastic posts was this one:
link to mondoweiss.net
Frankly, it makes you look like a conspiracy-loving nutjob.
I'm off to bed. Are we done here?
Because I've never seen Haytham call for a single member of Hamas to be tried for war crimes against Israel or the Palestinians alongside Israeli war criminals
That's why I'm convinced Haytham's standards are different for Israel than for other countries.
Based on things Haytham has told us about his family I can even understand why Haytham's standards are different for Israel, but I think it's unwise of you to try to argue that they aren't when his bias is so glaringly obvious.
But it doesn't explain Chaos's persistent lying. Will we ever get to the bottom of that thorny issue?
Seems a bit heavy handed, but OK. Where on the docket does this incident fit, before or after Syria, Yemen, Hamas, the US in Afghanistan, torture in Guantanamo, rendition by the UK etc., etc.
Oh sorry, I forgot you only apply these kinds of things to Israelis. You certainly have an interesting idea of "universal justice".
"He should be tried in a non-Israeli court because Israel courts are incompetent."
OK. let me know when you solve that problem and I'll send you a couple of my parking tickets.
Can you suggest a country that has in your opinion competent courts to take over all Israel's legal logistics? Go on, name a country, I dare you.
Agreed, but the question is "why?". Why would Israel try to injure civilians in a haphazard manner when everyone knows the negative publicity it causes. It's just not a sensible goal. You can argue as much as you want that Israel is a brutal and terrible regime, but the simple and devastating truth is that what happened to Ms Henochowicz was an accident. Once we agree on that we can argue about Israeli negligence and how much they could and should have anticipated, but it can only be framed in the understanding that this was not the planned or desired outcome when the decision was taken to fire tear gas to disperse the protesters.
Fair enough. Was the video evidence not clear enough for you? I'm curious though, why should this be tried in a non-Israeli court. An Israeli soldier fired a tear gas canister and an Israeli citizen was tragically injured. I get that you don't trust the Israeli court system, but I see no justification for taking it anywhere else.
As it stands, I don't believe soldiers of any country are ever tried in criminal courts (as opposed to civil court or some kind of international court for war crimes) for their actions in uniform and I have not heard of any civil action being brought by Ms Henochowicz against the army, so it seems your point, however well made, is moot.
I am suggesting that there was no intent to cause injury because the canister was fired at the ground.
I am suggesting that if the intent was to cause injury why not just go ahead and cause injury with bullets, or flamethrowers or tanks.
As you point out, Israel has all this weaponry and didn't in this instance use it. I am not excusing this case which may well be negligent, but it was not, in my opinion, caused with intent.
Not true. I chose to come here, but I have no military experience, I have never held a gun and I am not a soldier.
No. I'll try to speak slowly for you. I'm suggesting that if there is no intent to cause physical injury then it is not an offensive weapon. As soon as there is intent to cause physical injury, then anything, a fist, a rock, a katyusha or a cupcake is an offensive weapon against which anyone, Israeli or Palestinian, has the right to defend themselves against to prevent the intended harm occurring.
Look you twit, you can use a frozen leg of lamb to kill someone too. The difference, and this is a difference respected by law, is intent.
If the intent of the person firing a tear gas canister was to cause harm then it was an offensive weapon. If the intent was to fire a tear gas canister at the floor in order for the tear gas to disperse the protesters then it was not an offensive weapon.
I think the fact that the canister hit the ground first clearly shows that the intent was not to cause harm with the canister itself.
You can argue a strong case for negligence based on the velocity of the canister and the distance from the firing to the protesters, but in the case of a fatality this would be manslaughter, not first or second degree murder which requires different degrees of intent.
Does anyone know what the legal terms are for such an injury that were a) caused with intent, b) caused through negligence (of the perpetrator, obviously not the victim c) caused by accident. Cheers.
Chaos, Haytham, you noxious pair of name-calling nudniks. If you have any evidence that Emily Henochowicz is unhappy about being an Israeli citizen then please bring it.
Otherwise stop your meaningless prattle. Silly billies.
How arrogant of you to assume she isn't.
In the absence of evidence that she has tried to give up her Israeli citizenship, one can assume she is as proud of her national origins as most people.
link to youtube.com
At the end of this interview she talks about her Israeli citizenship without a hint of regret. She even jokes that "they haven't tried to take it". She also talks about her compulsion to return to Israel and the love and support she had from the Palestinians she met there. I see nothing to suggest she is not a proud Israeli-American. Do you?
She seems remarkably well-adjusted despite her trauma. As I said before, she seems to be a remarkable woman.
The terrifying footage I have seen shows the canister bouncing off the ground and into Ms. Henochowicz's face. It was clearly not the intention of the person firing to hit her.
I understand that you don't want to call this an accident, but tear gas canisters are not offensive weapons. If the goal was to maim demonstrators, there are probably more certain ways of achieving that goal.
But, as usual, none of this makes a difference. Another person, in this instance a young Israeli-American artist, has been severely harmed for no good purpose regardless of intention.
Woody, we've been through this before. Grad missiles are not firecrackers. If you say they are again you are not only defending war crimes, you're doing it while looking like an idiot.
link to en.wikipedia.org
This is your sickest comment yet. I'm amazed the mods let this slide, but I'm glad they did as now everyone can see Woody Tanaka "hoping" for more civilian fatalities, just like the people firing the rockets. This is some evil stuff, Woody, that I didn't even think you were capable of.
This is a tragic story and Ms Henochowicz is an inspiration to people on all sides of the conflict who have suffered for what they believe in.
She also puts the lie to all those MondoWeisslings who believe that dual citizenship cannot work and must imply a traitorous disposition.
Emily Henochowicz is a proud Israeli-American who believes in justice for the Palestinians. An impressive young lady, undoubtedly.
My response has been censored 3 times so far. Will this be no. 4?
So, Kalithea, if I understand you correctly.
You hate/are sick of the following:
* Holocaust Movies
* Liberal Zionists and their crocodile tears
* Manipulating Hollywood Zionists
* Jews with a conscience looking for answers and “signs”
* Zionists who laugh all the way to the bank
* Israelis, "Congress, the Lobby, the press, Holly…woood and YOU"
Hmm.
link to bbc.co.uk
BDS - winning hearts and minds with every ignorant act of petty defiance.
This is a great post. I think it is shameful that more Israelis don't learn Arabic. I understand it is a beautiful language with a wealth of poetry and great literature.
I am pleased that both my boys have started learning the language.
I also think it's shameful that Aroma is instructing employees to speak Hebrew only. Becoming a more culturally aware society can only benefit all Israel.
"because hundreds the passengers said their computers, cameras and recording devices were systematically confiscated."
I'm not arguing with that, Annie, nice try. I am saying that you cannot convict anyone in any court in the world based on facts not in evidence.
Your claim that Israel has concealed evidence that would damn them is just a claim. I would very much like to see all the "computers, cameras and recording devices" turned over to an independent investigator, but until then you simply can't make assumptions about what they contain.
I hate what Israel has done here. I hate the lack of transparency. I hate the air of dishonesty that it creates. But I will not assume, like so many here have done that every UN report that doesn't agree with Chaos003.5's twisted view of the world is suspect and dishonest.
He's full of it and none of you have the balls to call him on his BS.
Shingo, honey. I'm not defending Israel. I'm saying that Israel is responsible for the deaths on board the Mavi Marmara.
I am also saying that I don't believe Israel began the assault on the Mavi Marmara with the aim of taking lives. The reason I believe that is not because Israel has the most moral army in the world or any of that bullshit, it's because Israel has one of the most pragmatic armies in the world. I believe the Israeli army is more than capable or being ruthless and inflicting an enormous amount of damage when it deems it necessary. In this instance it shouldn't have been necessary. No Israeli lives were at risk. This was simply a face-off. I also believe that the Mavi Marmara amounts to what the Americans call a "giant clusterfuck". There was simply no percentage in Israel killing people on board. There was no reason for Israel to plan it that way to create martyrs and show themselves to be violent thugs at the same time. There is no doubt that Israel came out of this looking terrible while the people of Gaza won the sympathy of the world. Whatever you think about Israel they didn't plan for it to happen this badly. They fucked it all up, but they didn't set out with that as a goal.
Look at the second flotilla. I am in no doubt that Israel was behind every diplomatic, legal and illegal trick that prevented that flotilla from sailing. This was not a clusterfuck, it was a ruthlessly orchestrated deflation of the bombast and goals of the flotilla.
"Really? Because you’d never use snipers to sweep the deck to make room for your commandos to storm the deck?"
Er... again that didn't happen, did it? The deck was not swept. It was full of people when the commandos made their ill-advised landing and at least one of them was instantly thrown overboard.
No snipers. You have no evidence of snipers. You are repeating someone else's lies.
Chaos you are truly deranged. I am not rejoicing and the report has not let the IDF off the hook. You're a grade A nutjob.
You spout a never-ending stream of horseshit and call it truth. It would be better for everyone if you got out of the way and let the grownups talk.
Define "relevant evidence". How do you know there is any if you haven't seen it? You assume that there is evidence that incriminates Israel and the fact that Israel hasn't shown it to you proves it to be so. It's utterly circular logic.
It is just as possible that there is no incriminating evidence that serves your version of the narrative and that's why you haven't seen it. There's nothing to see that particularly supports either your version of events or Israel's.
Like you, I wish Israel behaved with greater transparency, but you have no honest grounds for making the assumptions you make. You hate Israel and it fuels your every opinion.
@chaos
Again these are all your suppositions based on your stated distrust of everything Israel does. You have no proof that there is any video evidence to support your version of events when there is clear video evidence that the Israelis boarded the Mavi Marmara brandishing paintball guns. Again, I would also call on Israel to turn over everything they confiscated so it can be examined independently and added to the evidence used for a full and frank report, but you cannot convict anyone based on evidence you have never seen. You con't do it in the UK, the US, Israel or Turkey. Sorry sunshine.
Fair enough, but I object to the assumption that their absence confirms your version of the narrative.
"It’s pretty clear that somebody subverted this report."
And by "pretty clear" you mean in your own deranged mind given that you have no evidence at all to support this theory. Kook.
What about all the UN resolutions that go against Israel? Is someone subverting them too? Was the Goldstone report subverted when it found that Israel committed war crimes?
You just pick and choose when the outcomes of these reports support your already decided mind. You're hopeless.
Sumud, this simply never happened. There is no credible evidence that it did.
I'm all for an open and honest debate about how badly the IDF fucked up on the Flotilla, but if you insist on talking shit like this when we've all seen the video of the guys arriving on deck holding paintball guns, you look like an idiot. I know the soldiers once on board switched to live fire and that 9 people were killed but there is no evidence that anyone was injured by sniper fire. It's bullshit.
If the IDF was firing from helicopters with snipers, why bother boarding at all? I think everything about the raid was wrong. And I mean Israel was wrong. But when you start quoting eyewitness testimony to things that didn't happen you are not doing anyone any favours.
Walid. I do my best to boycott all settlement goods including fruits and vegetables. I'm sure whatever non-violent steps I take to end the occupation democratically are not enough. You only have to look at Chaos repeatedly telling me to "Go Home" to see that.
By the way, what US goods are you boycotting to protest America's illegal occupation of Iraq and it's wholesale murder of tens of thousands of Afghani civilians? I, for one, have stopped watching reality TV shows and I will never buy another Michael Bolton record again. How am I doing?
No Donald, I'm lecturing Walid because his repetition of an earlier claim that "the only Israelis that are honest about being anti-settlement are those that have chosen a self-imposed exile" is silly, unrealistic and unhelpful to the cause he claims to believe in.
As an Israeli living within the Green Line who consistently votes to end the occupation, I take the same responsibility for the oppression of the Palestinians as Cindy Sheehan does for the occupation of Iraq.
I don't expect any of the Americans who post here to go into self-imposed exile to prove their opposition to American war crimes and I object to these absurd expectations being placed upon me.
When people at Mondoweiss tell me I should "go home" it has zero impact except to dismiss them as being valuable people with whom to debate.
Thanks for the link.
Calling Ra'anana pseudo-American is like calling Harlem pseudo-African. We are Israeli. Get over it.
Look even if I agreed with what you are saying, which I don't, it wouldn't matter. Israel is not going away. Israel is not going to become a one-state solution for all the people from Jordan to the Med. I know I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Your arguments here place you so far from the reality of what the future is likely to bring that you make yourself irrelevant.
Israel is not Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia. You're not going to turn round 30 years from now and find it doesn't appear on your map.
Israel has wronged the Palestinians and that must be righted. I believe it can be through negotiation. If you believe that the only way for Israelis to atone is for them all to leave, you'll be waiting a long time, but more importantly the Palestinians will be waiting a long time. I don't want that, but I and Larry Derfner and a whole bunch of other people are not leaving, so you need to find some other solution that you can live with. I am willing to work towards finding that solution. Calling me a thief and a settler isn't going to help us get there no matter how right you think you are.
I've always hated the cliche that it's better to be smart than to be right, but on a site like MW where so many of you are so sure that you're right, it might be better if some of you were smart, too.
"maybe you should produce a link they’ve closed down their WB plant."
Why? I'm pretty sure they haven't. I'm also sure that the Sodastream products on sale in Israel include parts manufactured over the Green Line. That's why I don't buy Sodastream.
My point was that for now there is no evidence that the Sodastream products that are still being sold in Sweden (not kicked out as EI stated) are being made over the Green Line. The CEO says they're made entirely in China. The Co-op is investigating. When the CEO is proven to be lying about the goods sold in Sweden that will be the time to print the story. For now it's just another incomplete propaganda puff piece waiting for resolution. You can be sure that if the results of the investigation prove that the CEO was correct, that will not make the news section in EI and certainly it won't be reported here.
If the investigation proves the CEO was lying about goods sold in the Swedish market that will be the story. Until then, it's just an accusation. Any time a news agency is reporting accusations as is they were already proven, you have to worry about the integrity of that news agency.
On Mondoweiss where you are so quick to call out Israeli propaganda, I would expect the same amount of cynicism and distrust of Israel's propaganda counterparts. When I don't see it, it just confirms the rank hypocrisy that characterizes many of the commenters here.
"Later on it was proven he lied. He lied."
I heard that also, but can you provide a link please.
Walid, check out Woody's answer below to see why I want precision.
I don't buy goods made in the settlements and I live in Israel and self-identify as a Zionist. If it turns out that he machines sold in Sweden are manufactured over the Green Line or that they include parts manufactured over the Green Line then I wholly support this boycott, but that't not what has happened, yet. For now, EI is propagandizing a non-story in the same way that people here accuse Israel of doing.
I call BS on this story until the investigation is resolved and I call BS on EI for printing half-truths.
More lazy reporting from EI. Here's the report from Sweden (emphasis mine):
There's no indication of how many machines are still left on the shelves and whether or not the investigation will be concluded in time to restock. This seems to be to be a reasonable measure if the chain believes Sodastream are in breach of their guarantee and hardly amounts to "kicking out machines made in settlements" as it remains unproven whether or not the machines they are selling are in fact made in settlements. I think the headline is premature pending the results of the investigation. In the meantime sales in Sweden are likely to continue uninterrupted.
"is wilf a woman?"
Nice try, Annie.
(emphases mine)
Save your faux surprise for people who think you don't read the posts you comment on.
It got a more fractious after that, but you can use the search engine yourself to find out.
As for Einat Wilf, you can be sure that Seafoid wouldn't be making an inappropriate "Mother I'd like to fug" gag about a bloke. Or, if you genuinely weren't sure, you could always google "Einat Wilf" to see a picture of the woman seafoid is objectifying in a revolting sexual manner which he excuses, presumably, because she is Israeli.
Seafoid that's an aggressively sexist comment to make about a female politician. Ugh.
Annie, you're usually so quick to condemn this kind of boy talk, but I guess it's OK to dehumanize women as objects "I'd like to fug" when they're Israeli, huh?
I do believe in God and I am a practicing orthodox Jew. But writing crap like this buys into the settler BS that God wants them there in the first place and that God has a clear idea of what he thinks the secular State of Israel should look like.
I don't think God gives a good god damn about any of that. My belief and worship are not bound by political entities and their squabbles over borders. If Israel becomes a Bahai country, I will still have a religious obligation to live here. The Torah, in my opinion, is not something most of the Israeli government concerns itself with, no matter what they tell you.
Do I think God would like the settlers? Who cares? I don't like the settlers and I'm the one voting, not Him.
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Meanwhile over at the Freedom Theater your friends are sowing the seeds of your destruction. (People that are not chosen are not allowed to have any fun!!!!!)
God will not be merciful to his chosen people for behaving like this."
How is this any less annoying and irrelevant that the settler god-botherers who claim the land was given to them thousands of years ago?
This is just the flip side of a broken record. Find something else to beat Zionists up with other than "God's not gonna like what you've done".
I give up, I guess, you should just count their horns and divide by two.
"another day in the life i guess"
Finally, someone gets it. Thanks Annie. What's up with all these other commenters today?
As usual you're just making an ass out of u and mption.
I'm laughing at your sour response to being called a bigot when your post called everyone in the video, about whom, you know nothing, fascists.
Woody, you are a bigot. Haven't you got anything better to do than call people at a rock concert "fascists"? Silly nonsense.
That was a classic "iceberg, Goldberg" response.
Woody, sweetie, can you identify for me please the people in this video who were a) Zionists and b) fascists?
Or do we all look alike to you?
I'm looking forward to the response this six week old non-story gets.
@0:52 - Go Nadia!
Congratulations Taxi. You have won today's prize for defending the indefensibly moronic. You must be very proud.
As for "evidence", as any fule kno, the burden of proof is on the the person making a claim not the person querying its veracity.
Hilarious response, Taxi.
Do you also claim that Israel is spending "billions of dollars" on hasbara like this halfwit?
"spend billions of dollars on Hasbara"
Er... evidence, please.
"effectively silences any opposing voices"... except yours of course. You must be very brave.
And that's the high standard of debate we can expect from Mondoweiss.
Thanks mods, for letting us know exactly what you're looking for in a comment.
Kudos to Phil for publishing this excellent and challenging post. These are difficult times to stand up and self-identify as a Zionist while calling for a negotiated two-state solution.
There are many people here who simply cannot stomach the idea of a "Jewish homeland, run by Jews for Jews and protected by Jews" believing it to be fundamentally supremacist and proof that Zionism is racist at its core. I don't believe that to be true and I'm grateful to see a post on Mondoweiss that reflects that without letting Israelis off the hook for their violence and racism.
OK, let the flood of insults begin...
And your "solution" is that I and roughly six million other Jews "go home". How enlightened and socio-politically astute of you.
Do you have other suggestions or is that really your final solution?
So Chaos you do agree with this. Thanks for clarifying your position.
Would you like me to generate a list of people in the public eye who have visited Israel in the past, say, five or ten years and you can start your very own cuckoo version of BDS where you call for them all to be excluded from everywhere, just like Israel did to Noam Chomsky.
Personally, I am against this kind of behaviour and I believe that what happened to Professor Chomsky was a disgrace, but it's good to see that you're not afraid to admit your extremism.
Kudos on owning up to being a fascist.
"The Lebanese should have prevented her from playing in Beirut when it was known that she’s also play Israel."
Shakira didn't perform when she was here. Do you propose countries ban performances from anybody who has just visited Israel?
The point about there being no Palestinians is well made. The point about three of the participants being Jewish is unnecessary and casually racist. As far as I can tell this is not a political rally, but a discussion. The organizers are under no obligation to anyone to make up their panel in any way other than the one that suits them. They are certainly not beholden to Phil Weiss to build a panel for him to approve (as impossible as that would be).
As for the attacks on Hussein Ibish:
Ibish doesn't identify himself as a Palestinian. The racist assumption that he should by virtue of being a Muslim-American is astonishing for a site as liberal as this.
You can say that Phil wasn't using Ebonics, but I don't believe he would have used the same language if he were talking about any of the other participants. Phil has a history of gender and race insensitivity which surfaces at surprising moments.
Wow, this article and the subsequent comments barely stopped shy of actually calling out Hussein Ibish as an "Uncle Tom".
Still, Phil couldn't resist slipping into ebonics to describe Ibish's position.
Sometimes you guys are simply shameless.
Also I looked up Robert Malley. I'm amazed that you would lump him in as one of "3 Jews". It seems undeniably racist of you Phil to ignore his record in criticizing Israel and meeting with Hamas just to define him by his religion and assume you understand his position.
This is one of the weakest posts you've put up in a while and the casual racism it contains just slides by uncommented on for the most part. Very poor.
"I don’t get your point, Guilty Feat. As’ad AbuKhalil is very critical of Hamas, Fatah, and most of all Israel. Sounds exactly correct to me."
To me too. I agree with everything he wrote.
My point was that when I criticize Hamas, I am lambasted for using an "everybody sucks" stance to distract from Israel's wrongdoing when that is not my intention. My point is always that the resolution of the "I/P situation" will only come when the occupation ends and both sides are held accountable for their crimes and forced to negotiate a safe and secure future for all the people in the region.
There are too many people here who refuse to acknowledge the harm Hamas is doing to the Palestinian people and the Palestinian cause. As'ad gets it, Annie, Mooser, Shingo, Taxi and Hamas emissary, Medea Benjamin, don't.
Acknowledging the crimes of Hamas alongside the crimes of Israel would go further to bringing American Jews onside in the quest for peaceful resolution than 100 years of BDS and other blindspot campaigns. And it doesn't matter if it's right or fair. If your goal is justice for Palestinians then it should only matter if it's effective.
Looks like the "everybody sucks" paradigm works for both sides.
Yes it is bollocks. Read your own link. As revolting as the proposed law is, it is aimed at immigrants only. No citizens of Israel of any religion or ethnicity are required to swear allegiance to anything (unlike US kindergarten attendees who still have to pledge allegiance to the flag in many places) and no one is being stripped of existing citizenship. Stop talking bollocks.
As for the UK, not only is the citizenship test up for a vote, it is already in place and has been since 2002. Applicants are tested on their knowledge of the UK. Failure means that they are denied citizenship until they pass the test. Wake up and smell your own bs.
While I stand against the oath of allegiance and would refuse to take such a thing under any circumstances, it is a lot less arduous than learning intricate employment laws. Turns out it's way easier to immigrate to Israel than the UK.
link to en.wikipedia.org
That's bollocks.
You've lost the plot here American. You have absolutely no evidence of these numbers. I'd venture that a tiny proportion of the people you have decided are Zionists would self-identify as such. Doesn't matter either way. Your argument is unfounded bullshit and pure paranoid supposition.
You genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't agree with your politics is part of a conspiracy called Zionism. Twisted paranoid bollocks.
Get a grip.
I've never been a big fan of Hophmi, but today he got his shit together and kicked all your butts.
Really this constant harping on that we are all paid to be here is so dull.
Can we put all the speculation in one thread and stop using it as shorthand for "nah nah nah, you're sounding intelligent so I'm gonna stick my fingers in my ears and cry Hasbarist until you stop".
Reasonable discourse my arse, Annie. It's lame unproven bullshit. The burden of proof is on you to bring some kind of evidence to back up your repeated claims.
If you have some evidence that Hophmi is a paid shill, bring it. It's time to put up or shut up.
First of all, let me say I find the US press shockingly partisan towards Israel in a way that I don't believe the UK press is. I believe even the Israeli press features more direct criticism of Israeli government policies than you see in your MSM.
But let's have a look at this statement which I find problematic:
Let's just parse this out, shall we.
Fact 1 - Almost no mainstream pundits sympathize with the Palestinian position.
Fact 2 - a great many pundits in the media happen to be Jewish and darn few are Muslim
I choose not to argue with either of these "facts" for now.
Nevertheless, the assumption that there is a link between them is inherently racist. It assumes that the Fact 1 results from Fact 2 without providing any evidence except the racist assumption that Jews are unsympathetic to Palestinians - an absurd assumption to make on MondoWeiss where there are a great many Jewish pundits and darn few Muslim ones and where the sympathies lie overwhelmingly with the Palestinians.
Saying that Fact 1 follows from Fact 2 assumes that the sympathies of Jewish pundits are predetermined by their religion. This is the definition of a racist assumption.
Furthermore, the assumption of a link between Fact 1 and Fact 2 ignores the truth that the shocking lack of sympathy of mainstream pundits for Palestinians is equally distributed among the Jewish and non-Jewish pundits. For every Wolf Blitzer there is a Rachel Maddow or an Anderson Cooper or a Keith Olberman or a Greta Van Susteren. Oh wait, it looks like that for every Wolf Blitzer there are several other non-Jewish mainstream pundits (but I promised I wouldn't argue with Fact 2, sorry).
Saying Fact 1 is a result of Fact 2 doesn't just invite accusations of racism. It is fundamentally racist.
You have plenty of problems getting your mainstream media to sympathize with the Palestinians. Saying those problems are the fault of Jewish journalists is ignorant and racist.
נמל תל אביב is simply Tel Aviv Port a few kilometers north of Jaffa, originally opened in 1938. Sorry for the confusion.
I don't believe the port of Tel Aviv ever had an earlier Arabic name. I'm sure you'll tell me if I'm wrong.
Jeepers, Danaa, reread my comment. It was meant to be a joke.
I don't like dogs, but I've never hated one enough to castrate it and make it my pet, geddit? I grew up with a beagle called Kelly who "went to live on a farm" when I was young. Later my mum adopted a number of cats that came to the back door looking for food.
At my office at הנמל תל אביב there are 25 people and 5 dogs. I find Israel to be a very pet loving culture. I guess by nature I am more of a dog person than a cat person, but these days I have no interest in picking up another creature's shit. I changed enough diapers in my life, I'm done with cleaning up poop, no matter what species it comes from.
My children would love us to get a dog as they think all the walking would be good for me.
Most of the frum families I know have pets. Dogs, cats, parakeets, guinea pigs, whatever. Perfectly normal stuff. I really wonder sometimes if you're a little bit crazy with your bizarre and unfounded generalizations about Israelis and dati'im.
And thanks for your concern about my mental state. I was beginning to think you didn't care.
I'm not a fan of dogs or cats, but I've never hated them enough to buy one, castrate it and decide on a daily basis when it's allowed to eat and shit while calling it "my pet".
Not a big fan of horses either, but I've never despised one enough to put a bit in its mouth and ride on its back.
Look I'm all for boycotting settlement goods and I've been doing it for years, but when you write things like "rumors of Israeli paprika, perhaps persimmons and bathsalts" you reduce the whole idea to something petty and ridiculous rather than noble and empowering.
When BDS embraces a two-state solution and throws out the racists that use it for cover, it might become a force for good instead of this splintered, singalong, silliness scanning persimmons in the organic aisle for clues to their origin.
And that picture of the basket with some Sodastream bottles, humus and pretzels just looks like the saddest poker night ever!
"It feels important, but it also feels irrelevant.” Priceless!
Now, cue a bunch of comments on how BDS must be working as it gets all the ziobots (tm) so worked up. Yawn. Who's up first? Shingo? Taxi? Annie?
My son will make his own decision about the kind of national service he does. Right now he has two more years of high school and then a lot of our friends' kids are taking a year off to study in a religious seminary before conscription.
Do you say things like this to the parents of US servicemen and women too? You must be fun at dinner parties.
Donald? Annie? Phil? eljay? Max? mig? Bueller?... Bueller?...
Anybody have anything at all they would like to say to Chaos about his helpful little rants?
I find this kind of cyber-bullying by an insignificant angry earwig just gets in the way of genuine debate.
This page has held some valuable discussion about what constitutes a military target - an awful but, sadly, important debate. Chaos wants to pollute the debate and make it about me. The silence with which his bollocks is met by others is the only significant thing about it.
I live in Ra'anana. Look it up.
"++++ If soldiers are using civilian buses, only soldiers using them, its legitimate military target. If soldiers are using civilian buses, mixed with civilians, that is not legitimate military target."
I believe, based on the reports I have read that there were soldiers on the bus together with civilians, but I don't have specific evidence, so I won't push it. I know for sure that the driver of the public bus was a civilian. Does that count?
Cool. Thanks.
I wrote something in reply to Max below about military targets although I want to qualify it by saying I hate this kind of war-philosophy. I want the occupation to end immediately with a full withdrawal to 67 borders.
I want the siege of Gaza to end immediately. I don't want Israel to identify any more "military targets" and claim that they're legitimate and I don't want anyone else to either.
That said of course there are legitimate military targets. I have argued previously that a public bus with some soldiers on it is not one, but I take the point that soldiers are soldiers and allowing them on public buses is the equivalent of hiding them among civilians and using human shields. I get that you don't care that these soldiers were on their way home for the weekend and "off duty". They were certainly not in a combat situation hiding among civilians in order to launch an attack, but I realize there are no "timeouts" in the occupation so it is what it is.
I do not believe that the PRC represents a legitimate resistance. They act without the will of the people and against the elected leadership Hamas. They are an illegal militia committing war crimes with no accountability. Similarly any Al Qaeda factions in Gaza or other minority groups are not arms of the resistance. They are minority forces that do not represent Palestinian interests.
Whatever I think about Hamas, at least they can be said to speak for the people of Gaza. If Hamas declares a ceasefire that the PRC do not respect, do you still call them a legitimate resistance force?
"you are proposing a self-serving binary, where reality is a spectrum"
I'm afraid I have no idea what that means.
I think you're saying that I believe it's either one or the other but reality is more complex, right? Fair enough.
I believe Israeli intelligence that came from Jordan suggested that the goal of the operation was to kidnap Israeli soldiers. A clear military target. I will even buy into the argument that a public bus with soldiers on it is a legitimate target for a military operation. But I cannot concede that attacking a car full of civilians is anything but an act of terrorism.
Nor is the indiscriminate rocket fire from Gaza into civilian areas anything but war crimes. You only have to read the Goldstone report to know that.
I condemn the Israeli government for responding so brutally and killing more innocent children I am surrounded in this thread by people who think targeting Israeli civilians is perfectly acceptable. They justly condemn Israeli war crimes but smile benignly on Palestinan war crimes. Look around, Max, and see if you feel like commenting after people like TovioS, Chaos4700 and Charon.
Thanks Max. I appreciate your gracious response.
"++++ Really…..what part you didnt get ?"
The part where you call Hamas and the PRC to account for their war crimes (as defined by international law and confirmed in the Goldstone Report) in launching rockets at civilian areas. The definition of these war crimes is not tempered by their being a response to an attack or the initiation of one.
What about the family of four traveling in a civilian vehicle that was targeted and murdered in the attack in Gaza? Were they also a military target or victims of terror murdered by people who just wanted to kill as many Jewish Israelis as possible regardless of who they are?
What about the rockets that Hamas and the PRC have admitted launching over the weekend? Were they "almost certainly not from Gaza" too?
I deplore Israel's response to these attacks, but you refuse to acknowledge them.
So, no evidence, then that any authority agrees with you, not the UN, not Amnesty, not the Goldstone report? OK. Thanks for trying. Eejit.
Your semantic bullshit doesn't cut any ice. There are no degrees of lethality. Something is either lethal or it isn't. Use a dictionary before you try to use your words. Palestinian rockets are lethal. They are fired into Israel with the sole purpose of taking civilian lives. Sadly they are sometimes successful.
Describing Grad missiles as "bottle rockets" is humiliating to the Palestinians and insulting to Israel. Shingo you're being a fool.
I find every death revolting on either side. You only find it revolting when there are lots of them. You're a hypocrite and, it turns out a bloodthirsty one at that.