Total number of comments: 41 (since 2009-08-25 12:38:30)
harveystein
Filmmaker/journalist living in Jerusalem for last three years (after meeting future Israeli wife in New York). You're all invited for a good thick Turkish coffee if you visit (email:harvey33@gmail.com)
Website: http://www.heartoftheother.com
Beinart is about as unhip as some of you: Sarah is not an intellectual, she's a comedian. But she's saying in an absurd, vulgar way that she can out-trick Adelson, customer of whores Romney and Gingrich. She's saying she'll help her man Obama, who's not the natural whore like the others. It's basically a campaign ad, not an analysis of Israeli/American politics, like you (and Peter) would prefer.
Rachel - I admire your passion, but not your summary that it's all about a "misunderstanding". Many of us simply think that blanket BDS is counterproductive (expressed well by es1982 above). Personally, targetted BDS - boycotting corporations that directly invest in or make profits by the Occupation, or businesses located in the West Bank - makes PERFECT sense to me.
But to simply condemn a musician for refusing to not play an Israeli concert is a bit simplistic. In a way, it's exactly like the siege of Gaza: If we punish EVERYONE, maybe the population will rise up against the government and demand change. It's not working in Gaza, and it probably won't work in Israel (within the Green Line). Punishment generally comes from the lower human realms (by the way, serious question Rachel - what about with your future children - how would you try to influence their behavior?)
In my humble opinion, if one values one's own narrow ideology (e.g. total BDS) over making coalition with other progressives, you're being an ideologue. As far as I know, all successful revolutions (from Egypt recently, to America 1776) happened when a wide variety of people, who disagreed on many details, were able to make coalition about a MAJOR change all thought was needed. Otherwise, it's noble ideology, but the result seems to be divide and conquer.....
Alex's setup at the top is totally predictable, and leads to most of the comments being likewise. For a much more provocative analysis, please read Amira Hass' article (which was linked to above, but got no reaction):
link to haaretz.com
Hass of course doesn't assert any kind of "equivalence", but she challenges the "left" to be maybe a tad more creative (and in the end, more practical, if it's killing we want to help stop).
Yes, it's good in the big picture that Nasrallah is helping create a balance of power in the Middle East. But on the other hand he's a bully, a politician that simply likes to preserve his power. He "suggested" to Said Hariri that he not return from his trip abroad a few months ago. His charisma would be meaningless without the massive weaponry he gets from Syria and Iran. He is promoting Arab pride, but has absolutely no desire to promote a healthy, real democracy in Lebanon. He's nothing without an "enemy" to rail against - in this way, he's really a lot like his friend across the border, Netanyahu.....
Uh, can everyone take a chill pill?! (I know it does excite some of you guys.....)
"A million martyrs to Jerusalem" is a trope (a metaphorical phrase), used many times. The last most well known is Arafat, in 2003 (in the middle of the Intifada, when he was under "house arrest" in Ramallah). The Israelis had made vague threats to "remove" him. He responded with the same phrase. I think Egyptians are flexing muscles of freedom of expression they haven't been allowed to use for many years. Throughout the last 3 weeks in Tahrir one of the most used chants was also, "Peaceful, peaceful." Why don't we make a big deal out of that one too?
I was just trying to see if you were awake, Shmuel. And there you are!
Thank you, Khashayar. While most humans (including most on this blog) seem to either demonize or idealize all those around them, you are speaking more truthfully. It's so easy to quickly throw everyone into the "good" or "bad" pile - what that does is stop the mind/brain from really working. As far as "leaders", they are the same - 99% of them use their power to retain their power, and not to truly help those around them.
Get serious - how is Phil focussed on both sides?? How many posts does he write on "the Israeli side" (except to excoriate it, or occasionally spotlight Israeli activism). If you wanna call 1SS as "focussing on both sides", you're being naive. 95% of Israelis wouldn't dream of a 1SS. A real 2SS (although getting pretty unlikely) would be a non-zero-sum game.
And if the negotiations continue to tank, the PA might unilaterally declare a Palestinian state (of course Hamas would freak), and after U.S. elections are over, U.S. might abstain from a UN vote on such. Which brings us back to Grossman - deep under the existential fears/instability that he describes that Israelis unfortunately regard as normal, Israelis - like all people - want real autonomy, real borders, peace with its neighbors.
Netanyahu is Bush. If we Israelis can somehow survive him, things may get better.
Phil,
I'm going back to your post at the top here. I find it whining, sniping. I ask you - why does it seem you resent so much David Grossman, his high profile, and his rep as a "leftist"?
Something about your POV, and those of many posters here, is that it seems like you have little tolerance for those in the "mainstream left", who don't share your views exactly. Sure, you and others on this blog have an almost automatic identification with Palestinian suffering, and that may be one useful type of "leftist" thinking (because yes the mainstream generally ignores Palestinian suffering).
But why can't you accept and even benefit from Grossman's POV and his articulation of "leftist" thinking? Do you really think he harms your goals?
I'll try to answer:
You don't like Grossman because his primary articulation of his "leftist" thinking is focussed more on Israelis than Palestinians. His masterful, compassionate work primarily describes the tragic predicament/actions of Israel and the tragic psychology of many Israelis. Tragic because, Israelis often seem doomed to stay unhealed, to stay trapped in their traumas.
I seem to remember another post on your often great blog talking about tragic vs. romantic thinkers. Grossman is tragic. You're romantic: you cream over the possibility there may be an end to Palestinian suffering, you dream about a beginning to a time of Palestinian freedom.
But again, are you so sure that the differing styles of thinkers left of center are dangerous to each other? Is common ground, some grand view of a diverse group of humans working and acting together - impossible for you?
Avi - I lost respect for me when you flamed me a couple months ago. You denigrated my film website (after apparently looking at it for about a minute) about the amazing Palestinian activist, Khaled Mahameed.
You comments above are all utter generalizations - you wanna engage with those you disagree with, do it with some substance, and even with some respect.
I'd say (from experience here) that racism is only half the problem - Palestinians are just as racist as Israelis. Problem is Israelis are 500% more powerful, so their racism damages more.
As far as Grossman, Phil, he's a freaking novelist, not a journalist/activist/propagandist. It's the novelist's job, I hope, to paint complex stories that get empathetically get into the worlds of his characters. And by the way, you probably know that just about every week, he goes to the Sheikh Jarrah demonstrations - globally famous writer that he is - and stands next to all the 20-something leftists. So I'd say he is a bit of a moral leader.
But yeah, I'd say you're right, when the New Yorker profiles Marwan Barghouti or Haneen Zoabi, we've made some progress.
OK you lefty fundie Mondoweissers (now that I got your attention....):
Now's a crucial time for the Middle East. I know many of you guys are utterly cynical about 2SS. You'd rather cling to something I believe is Utopian (100% justice, 100% democratic, etc.) - but now's the time to really ask - what is DOABLE?
Of course, we need to find a way to bring Hamas into the big picture negotiations (like Ali Abuminah's great editorial in the Time) and of course, if we don't, Hamas will continue to express their "resistence" philosophy by killing Israeli civilians.
Of course, Israel is the much more powerful "partner", and if there's any hope in the current negotiations, pressure by Obama will have to be applied, primarily on Israel.
Of course, past negotiations failed because of blind Western techniques, of (as Meshal says) "gifting" the Palestinians. Many Palestinian friends have told me the same about previous negotiations: Palestinians, humiliatingly, were handed finalized conditions, and expected to "yes" them.
ON THE OTHER FREAKING HAND - what is doable?
Mr. Cool Meshal thinks "snatching" solves things.
If these current talks fail, extremists (including Meshal, most of Netanyahu's coalition, and many of the settlers) will be ecstatic. They'll probably get the Armageddon they long for. Meshal (comfy in his Damascus digs) will get to do a lot of long distance "snatching". It may lead eventually to Israel feeling so isolated they'll "do" Iran (experts estimate maybe 10,000 Israeli civilians die, and up to A MILLION Lebanese, Syrian, Palestinian, and Iranian civilians die).
On the ground here in Jerusalem, cynicism is a luxury. Phil and others - along with posting all your cynical posts (from Code Pink actions to Meshal to satires about past peace processes....) maybe post some pragmatic thinkers and actions??? The right often gets its power by agreeing to put aside its differences, the left usually lets power slip away because it fragments, taking refuge in revolutionary ideas. What is doable?
If you're interested in some kind of peace making in Israel/Palestine, what possible use is there in taking the time to link to an article like this in Mondoweiss? If you're interested in cataloguing EVERY SINGLE evil of fundamentalist Jews, then yes it makes sense, total sense.
Oh, I just GOT IT (re-read the title) - Anti-muslim bigots are missing the point that fundie Jews are just as primitive as fundie Moslems. Now I feel much better!
Possibly putting it in some intellectual context - for example, how the fundies on all sides - Jewish, Moslem, Christian - fuel the conflicts, maybe there's value, maybe it becomes interesting. Certainly, the fundies are against change, believers in literalism, black-and-white reality, etc.
Bla bla bla. I like a lot of what you guys post, but maybe it's worth it to examine (and write about) intentions sometimes.....
Will is a freaking ideologue, and I just sent him an email to that effect. I don't know his background - maybe Christian Neo-fundi?
Obama took a moderate position but he didn't bring it face to face to Israelis. You comfy in America bloggers may never fully understand until you come to Israel and maybe have a brush with a suicide bombing, or even sit in a spiffy cafe in my neighborhood where spiffy customers were blown apart 6 years ago. Oh so tempting (and satisfying for God's sake!) to raise that stick of punishment - but if it's not accompanied by the carrot (for example, we will cover your ass if the Iranians or Syrians try to smuggle medium range missiles into the West Bank like they have to Hizbollah), it won't get anywhere in Israel.
Read more on this here:
link to realisticdove.org
I'm as much for change to the horrible status quo as anyone on this blog, but without at least standing in Israelis shoes for a FEW seconds, your techniques probably won't work in the way you want them to.
Jeff - I am not "concerned" with the feelings of the majority of Israelis, etc etc either. But I am concerned with the most effective ways to help change the situation in Palestine/Israel.
Of course no one can predict the effects of their actions on the world or on specific people. All we can do is observe, make an "intervention", and observe again. In my experience, as I said, Israeli Jews tend to push away criticism easily (especially if it has that angry edge that some folks - like you and Avi - on this site display - who want ALL Israelis to "feel the squeeze".
I doubt (I know, I'm starting to sound a bit like RW) that actions based on anger - especially without thoughtfulness- are the most effective.
Now I'm going to get really New Age - what made YOU change?? (think of a situation when you might have been a real bastard to wife, kid, friend, co-worker).
I really doubt it was simply someone coming down with a hammer of criticism. But who knows.....
I praise your thoughtful grappling with the complex tactic of BDS. Yes, I think BDS activities targetting raising American awareness probably have no down side.
On the other hand, tactics aimed at Israelis in Israel are much more problematic.
Having lived in Jerusalem the last few years, spending time with a lot of sabras (Israelis born in Israel), I see how many Israelis, not only right wingers, are caught and confused at the current time. Something about the "average" Israeli is different than the average American. Israelis seem hypersensitive to blame - when they feel blamed, they recoil, rarely taking time to ponder the situation. Also, they're generally "reactive" (which explains why they can do horrible things like respond to Israeli suffering with a military onslaught that can cause 100s of times the casualties they experienced.)
For these reasons, BDS tactics that are seen to target all Israelis are often just pushed away, with the thought (as you say) "see? the world is against us again".
BDS tactics that clearly target only settlement products are a different story, because even though they make some Israelis angry (settlers or settler sympathizers usually), they are understood as different by most mainstream Israelis.
It's tempting (and less work) to be a black-and-white leftist ideologue - thanks again for taking the time to be more reasoned.
He was just "taking my side" in a childish off-topic post by Avi above. Give him a break. Seriously, this site would get pretty freaking boring without little breaks from all the mutual m.
Well Avi, I'm sorry if I implied that your no longer living in Israel has anything to do with your thinking. The part of your thinking that is not productive is your criticizing of Avishai, who I think is typical of most of the Israeli left.
Why waste time fighting with Avishai just because he may not believe in BDS? Does everyone have to think exactly like you? (you said you went to 30 yrs of demos, but you sound like an 18 yr old when you talk like that).
I don't agree with blanket BDS, I do believe in intelligent boycott of, for example, settlement products (like British Methodists just got behind). But even if you do believe in full metal jacket BDS, I still think we're on the same side, because we both think the current situation is tragic. Maybe I think the Israelis bear 90% of the responsibility, maybe you think it's 99.9%.
Should we be enemies over the 9.9%?
I was replying specifically to Avi, but anyone can take the bait! Seriously, it's the hallmark of a losing movement to tear apart those we should be finding common ground with....
Here's some video from the Sheikh Jarrah demo a couple weeks ago - which among other things are bringing together Israeli Jews and Palestinians - yes we're in different circumstances, but we're making common ground:
link to youtube.com
Here ya go again - Avishai puts his body on the line - he goes many Friday afternoons to the demonstrations in Sheikh Jarrah or Silwan - in both places tear gas cannisters or rubber bullets sometimes fly, or a bone is broken by the over eager Border Police. While you sit outside Israel/Palestine and criticize him for not following your strategy. Isn't there room for both your and his tactics? Progressives will ALWAYS lose unless we have the big minds and hearts to create COALITIONS - with those who ultimately share our goals, although who might differ in their actions. Otherwise it's divide and conquer, keeping us on the (loud but ineffective) fringes forever....
Many good points about the relativity of that loaded word "terrorist". But you could have made the same points more effectively by being less strident yourself, less "inciting". For example, you generalize about Rabin the 'terrorist' - "that's certainly how Arabs view him" you say.
Here's a video I made with a Gazan journalist, who interviewed a Gazan man who (most of the way into the vid) calls Rabin a courageous peace maker: link to vjmovement.com
OK Shmuel. No sulha. Man the guns!
Whew! Roll up your blogsleeves - Pow! Bam!
Shmuel: Do I sound so freaking Israeli arrogant that your comments came out sounding equally so? Can an Israeli citizen still living in Israel and an Israeli living abroad still respect each other? All I was doing was voicing for a minute the concerns of Jews here (on a site where concerns of others are voiced predominantly) . OF COURSE Palestinians have suffered more greatly than Israelis. One way I like to look at it is - while all states, armed groups, and citizens in the region bear some responsibility, Israelis bear the most, so we need to be the LEADERS in peace (although with the current IL admin it's hard to imagine) - because the Israeli military is maybe 50x bigger than Hizbollahs, 500X bigger than Hamas'. Maybe you and I should have a sulha?
Syvanen: so maybe we agree on the psychopathology metaphor... But would you then really suggest brute threats be the ONLY therapy applied? What kind of clinic do you work in?
Donald and others: my favorite Israeli peace activist, Uri Avnery, says that Israelis are like everyone else, "only moreso". All groups are generally ignorant/desensitized to the suffering of others compared to suffering of their own. Israelis certainly have (Avnery's phrase again) a "national autism" towards others. So yeah, some forms of BDS might help, if applied intelligently (not brute threats). But more humane forms of activism, like the Parents Circle (that Shmuel mentioned) are probably more profound ways of changing peoples' mental habits.
In an hour I'm going to the weekly demonstration in Sheikh Jarrah, which some of us think and hope may be the rebirth of the Israeli/Palestinian left. Hundreds of Palestinians and Israelis demonstrating together, forming face to face friendships, working groups, pooling energies. Come on down-- I'll post video of it here in next few days: link to heartoftheother.com
OK, Taxi, Debonnaire, and Miss Dee Mena - you win. But notice how you're STILL playing the blame game. You might be "activists", but you're not peacemakers. You're ideologues, not pragmatic or practical.
(An ideologue is ruled by ideas, and all facts have to get squished into their preconceived ideas: Israel bad, others good). Ideologies are sexy, they definitely motivate people around the world - but they often cause much violence in the service of their ideas.
I wasn't whining about Lebanon - only describing what's going on in many Israelis' heads. Ideologists aren't really curious what's going on in anyone's heads except their own....
Of COURSE Hizbollah (and Hamas) have been stimulated, from the start, by both Israeli violence and cold Israeli strategizing - but knowing that, how does that bring us closer to peace?
Or maybe we don't really want peace, but a "justice" that is really first cousin to revenge (a justice that has been "served" to those who deserve it, i.e. criminals).
At the moment, I'm sitting in my office in Jerusalem, that is about 100 meters from the Hillel Cafe, where three people were killed (one a young woman the night before her wedding) by a suicide bomber in 2003. A bit further down the road there's a plaque in remembrance of 8 people killed in 2004 on a city bus that was blown up.
I'm a leftist, my heart pains for all the suffering in Israel/Palestine (I have videod many times in Niilin and Bilin for a documentary I'm making, including interviewing a Palestinian activist who was subsequently killed by a rubber bullet), but-----
it's useless to simplistically play the blame game as you do here: For almost anyone who has had their kin's blood spilled by violent acts by "the other side," mostly what they feel is fear that this kind of violence might happen again. Any Israeli who lived here during the intifada wants to feel 100% sure that it will not happen again.
Israelis look at Lebanon and see the total hypocrisy of the UN supposedly preventing new Syrian missiles being brought to Hizbollah - approx. 20,000 more missiles have been brought in since 2006.
So again, to comment that in the chain of violence Israel is always the one that instigates the next round - is useless, unless you really enjoy keeping score.
If you think that BDS pressure alone will change Israeli behavior (even if it opens up discourse, which is a great thing), you're just a pie in the sky armchair blogger. What MIGHT change Israeli behavior is the carrot as well as the stick: if Israel is given security assurances (unfortunately the U.S. is the only one still trusted by most Israelis) and probably U.S. troops on the ground in parts of the West Bank for several years, there may be some small chance that this tragic stalemate will change.
I think rather than getting involved in sexy international BDS activism, most Americans would do better
1. figuring out ways to break the stranglehold AIPAC has on American politicians via its lobbyists
2. pressuring Obama to get involved.
Check out my trailer here:
link to heartoftheother.com
You guys are projecting again. Yes, Israeli society is MUCH less PC than American society. Yes, Israelis tend to act out (many Americans, especially West Coast, tend to do the opposite - repress) a lot of the dirty stuff that swirls around in our minds. Americans say it all in the safety of their homes or their neighborhood bars, Israelis say the same exact stuff in public - on the street, and - oh my god - on network TV.
It's also probably helpful to remember that Israel is a very young, still very unsettled country. Like the U.S. of lynching times and through the '50's, blood, hate crimes, and racist venting are fresher here. I suggest trying to be a clear eyed anthropologist, evaluating things with local context and conditions in mind, rather than a weissologist. Love from Jerusalem....
(PS - try this one out at your next Chanukah party - why did Hitler kill himself?
...he got the gas bill)
Great post, Phil. It is nice to get a hopeful post once in awhile on your site, as opposed to the often gloatingly pessimistic ones....
And yes, don't forget the Israeli demonstrators who go to join the villagers on Fridays in Bilin and Niilin - they are younger, "anarcho" Israelis, not the classic leftists - but they show great courage (in face of huge fears propagated by the Israeli government about horrible consequences of Israelis independently going into the West Bank) - and their presence is muchly appreciated in those villages.
Here's a video interview I did with Rabbi Froman last year:
link to heartoftheother.com
I wouldn't define him as a "political" figure in any sense - he doesn't hold conventional policy beliefs. I would instead define him as a "spiritual activist" or a "peacemaker".
(ranted shrilly, like a drunk know-it-all): YOU'RE ALL ARMCHAIR BLOGGING DORKS!!
All this ENTIRE THREAD does is try to LAY BLAME -
"No, you're wrong, it's 89% Israel's fault, only 11% Hamas!!!"
"X started the horrors, Y only responded to them!"
Don't you know that in a situation knee deep in blood, BLAME does not much good, except to conclude with the forgone conclusions you began with???
YES the Israelis bear more RESPONSIBILITY, because (among other things) their military is 100 or 300 times more powerful than Hamas'.
YES, the Israeli government and the Hamas "government" are perfect bedfellows, who need each other to stay in power (as many have pointed out, Hamas' growth was greatly stimulated by Israel).
But what do we DO to get out of this stalemate? How do we change peoples' minds? How do we change OUR OWN minds?
Here I sit in Jerusalem, and you guys are debating X, Y, and Z, and the biggest most depressing news is that Abbas is bowing out. The least reactive, most sober Palestinian leader in the field is fed up with Our Guy in the White House - why don't you blame the latter, try to influence the latter, rather than parsing another way-too-long New Yorker article???
And just a little tidbit on Al Jazeera: on three occasions (2 in Israel and 1 in Niilin in the West Bank), Al Jazeera has refused to interview Khaled Mahameed (the Palestinian who is featured in my documentary, who presents Holocaust workshops to Palestinians). In Niilin, they refused to interview him, even though they were visiting a small exhibit of Holocaust photos that Niilin villagers decided to put up, after being inspired by meeting Mahameed.
So, I guess Al Jazeera likes to control their "message" as much as any other multinational media conglomerate...
Maybe a little Jewish money might loosen them up (but 50% is probably too high....)
The people here on this site should buy a ticket to Tel Aviv (or Amman or Cairo, if you want to leave your airport taxes outside Israel), and actually get some face time with "reality" as it's lived here in the UnHoly land. Speak to 7 Palestinians, 7 Israelis, and a White Christian or two....Then MAYBE after that, get to a peace outline......barring that, nudge Obama to get off his ass and come here with big carrot and bigger stick....
Typical of this site that you guys spend so much ink fleshing out all the facets of Israeli evil, and miss stories that have any forward-looking constructive import. The same day Goldstone was released, the Geneva Initiative group released its updated plan outlining practical structure for peace. Read a good article about the 2 reports here: link to truthout.org
Khaled is not Gandhi, but he has deeply studied Gandhi and his methods. "Satyagraha" is one of Khaled's tools - he believes that showing Israeli soldiers (from inches away) photos of the Holocaust will shame them into thinking a bit about the suffering they are directly causing Palestinians in West Bank towns like Niilin and Bilin.
My other point is that, unfortunately Phil and most others who post to this site are armchair leftists, who find it much easier to comfortably critique than to point out positive activism on either side. What I've found after living in Israel for 3 yrs now (and visiting many times before) is that my shrill leftist romanticism is SLOWLY transforming into a sober (sometimes depressing!) realism. I'm a little more inquisitive about your average Israeli or even your average Israeli settler, when I talk with them and see they are oh so human (for example, I videod (for hire) settlers for 3 days last week. Almost EVERY one of them mentioned a relative who was killed in the Holocaust ----- not to excuse their behavior, but to see and hear so graphically their woundedness....
>On this site in the past, Phil has lamented the fact that there is no Palestinian Gandhi rising up...>
I have repeatedly reached out to Phil to do a post on Khaled Mahameed, who is a passionate Palestinian activist who lives in Nazareth, but has spent countless days in the West Bank. Mahameed has studied Gandhi and others, and uses Gandhi's "satyagraha" as a weapon against Israeli soldiers and others. I am making a feature documentary on him, and you can see an excerpt here: link to heartoftheother.com
Shmuel and Citizen,
Re: Witty: Walker Percy, a great American writer from the 1930s said, "Everything possible to believe is an image of the truth". You guys sound just a bit fascist saying that someone's thoughts here are not useful - I think it might reflect as much on your own possibly frozen ideologies as anything Witty says. The fundamentalist-inspired lack of real discourse is not unique to the Right, you know.....
(and I have no idea if you're Jewish, Citizen, but there's a tradition in Talmudic discourse - lost in current Israeli custom and almost everywhere else too - where all interpretations are analyzed, especially the ones you disagree with. Probing, questioning the other, seeing what's underneath - it not only shakes up the others' assumptions, but yours as well.) So tell me, what exactly about Witty's comments irritates you so much?? Give me a little rant on that, would be interesting......
Shmuel,
I never said "mollycoddle"! Yes, Israeli Jews need shaking up (Avnery, who many people in this list love to jab, describes their problem as a "national autism") but how best to do that? I respect that you spent many years in Israel, but still, my model of human growth - ANY human growth, anywhere - adds the love to the tough (I have a 3 yr old son, have worked for years with troubled teens, and many other arenas). Yes, I am as frustrated as it seems you are with Israeli behavior in general, but using ONLY negative reinforcement seems to be a limited approach to changing behavior (except maybe in mice....)
There's a huge gap between the typical Western "leftist" activist and the typical Israeli - a gap of history, personal experience, and personal and national habit. Yes, all humans share many characteristics, but each human is unique too. How to bridge this gap? I live 2 minutes from a cafe in Jerusalem where a young woman (along with three others) was killed by a bomb in 2003, the night before her wedding. A bus bomb a block away killed 8. Israeli fears are not illusions, they must be addressed.
And by the way, more and more, especially young Israelis, are making the trip to the West Bank, to protest in Bi'lin, Nilin, Ma'asara, the villages around Hebron, and elsewhere. These Israelis are meeting and spending time with Palestinians - please don't generalize about Israelis not treating Palestinians as equals. The way you learn to treat someone as an equal is to meet them face to face, try to feel and share their pain, and start to see who they really are.
I don't think what you and I are saying is THAT different, only that I think some reassurance along with the threats is much more effective. Obama is ideally situated to do that. If I were still living in the States, I'd spend my time lobbying him on that, not flaming Israelis I had never met.
You're right, Elliot. It's gonna have to be tough too - Obama hasn't had the balls (or the focus time....) yet to really lay out consequences if the Israelis don't change. But again, if it's without the love, then it will probably backfire. The Israelis will kick and scream, but knowing they will be protected if the shit hits the fan (another act of violence by the Other), they'll kick the habit...
As far as an "objective" therapist, she's gotta be objective and compassionate at the same time, not an easy mix and certainly not present in most ideologues (right OR left).
No one here has referenced Avnery's mentioning of the effects of the Holocaust on Israelis. And almost no one here, as far as I can tell, has spent much time in Israel (or the West Bank or Gaza, as far as I can tell). Come on over.....
A Palestinian activist I have been working with, Khaled Mahameed, counsels his fellow Palestinians that force of any kind used against Israelis (and I count BDS as that) will never work. Because unfortunately, people traumatized by violence respond by "defending themselves" 100 times more forcefully. In my day to day life here in Jerusalem, I see it over and over - you raise your voice at someone in frustration, they raise their voice 10 times more. That's the language here.
I know you'll hate me, but "tough love" is the only answer, because if you grew up in Israel (where just like in Palestine, chances are you'd have an innocent relative or friend who was killed by "the enemy"), there's a good chance you'd be living the life of denial and post-trauma that Israelis do. You would need a good therapist, who would BOTH challenge you to fully experience and move beyond your trauma and denial, AND make you feel safe and secure.
Americans are the last people in the world to understand this, because America is almost completely innocent of direct violence against it (up until 9-11). (And I know it's tempting to want to punish the Israelis by BDS, because they're so damn arrogant - they are! but again, psychologically speaking, it's just armor over their wounds.)
My suggestion: Obama speak directly to Israelis (as he did to the Arab world) - both giving security guarantees, and gentle but firm threats. Israelis would change their tune in 5 minutes, 2-states appear within 10.
Shingo, the interesting thing about your response was you assumed I meant a "conflict between equal sides"! You're right, even with the aid of Damascus and Tehran, Hamas military is only maybe 1-2% as powerful as Israeli one. So yes, in some sense, the Israelis bear more blame (or to use a more helpful word, RESPONSIBILITY) for the tragic stalemate. And so they are being intransigent in refusing to be leaders in peacemaking.
Non- black and white thinking (non-ideological) means we're stuck with many shades of grey, means we actually have to think, and see a world where NO ONE is all victim, or all perpetrator. So all you writers (Olive!!) here who seem like you enjoy placing all the "blame" on Israel are living in some kind of Descartian fantasy. Comparison to South African apartheid (and promoting BDS, etc.) shows shallow thinking. From 2000-2005, over 1000 innocent Israelis were murdered in cafes, on buses, on streets (of course, several thousand more Palestinians were murdered in that same period). Nothing like this ever happened in South Africa. In addition, not taking the time to look (at least SOMEWHAT objectively) at Israeli psychology (the Holocaust wound, etc.), also contributes to simplistic solutions...and I'm NOT excusing Israeli behavior, only looking for strategic, practical thinking....
Hey Guys,
Why just continue to perpetuate the same polarization that is splitting the world?? I live in Jerusalem/AlQuds and invite you all to get off your high horses and come here. YES visit the West Bank (your American passport is the ticket) but YES visit Ashkelon or Sderot too. See how ordinary citizens are pawns in the bloody games played by power hungry politicians/thugs on both sides - and while you're at it, stop in Damascus and Tehran, and see how they're fanning the flames too. Black and white is so last century.....