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Total number of comments: 1119 (since 2010-06-03 10:08:35)

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  • Who knew that the Israeli blockade is 'economic warfare'?
    • Shmuel June 15, 2010 at 12:25 am

      "The policy of “returning” Palestinian “infiltrators” from the West Bank to Gaza, would also seem to indicate that the Israelis want Palestinians in Gaza (as opposed to the WB, which has pretty efficient one-way doors)."

      Did you really think I was talking about Israeli desires of ethnically cleansing Palestinians from Gaza and moving them over to the West Bank?

      Come on. Try again.

    • Shmuel June 14, 2010 at 11:58 pm

      'I think the real methodology here is to make conditions so bad, people will leave.'

      "Then they must have forgotten to leave the (one-way) door open."

      Oh, really? Do you mean if Palestinians in Gaza were to ask to immigrate to other lands, the israelis would not let them (provided those other lands would let them in, of course)?

      This after it's common knowledge there are people in the israeli guv openly advocating the ethnic cleansing of Arab citizens of israel?

      And with all that gas, and probably oil, off shore of Gaza?

    • MRW

      I didn't know that about McClatchy. That they used to be Knight-Ridder. I noticed that they seem sometimes to have better done news than the usual zionist fare, both now and as Knight-Ridder, though. Interesting, and thanks.

    • "The revelation that Israel's blockade is not about security and actually about punishing the Palestinians for putting Hamas in power isn't new, though. Dov Weisglass, an adviser to former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, infamously said that the purpose of the economic sanctions against Gaza is to "put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." Israel has also characterized the purpose behind the siege as one that promotes "no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis" in Gaza."

      I suspect this "diet", "collective punishment for voting Hamas", is the pr fallback position of the israeli fascists. I think the real methodology here is to make conditions so bad, people will leave. The israelis policies have consistently been ethnic cleansing strategies.

      "These frank admissions that the blockade of Gaza is designed to punish its civilian population, however, are missing from the majority of our media outlets. A Nexis search only turns up mentions of the Israeli government document about "economic warfare" in publications associated with McClatchy. And before the document was revealed, the Weisglass comment was rarely mentioned in the U.S. media. Perhaps U.S. media outlets think that reporting that Israel is engaged in collective punishment is too harsh for American ears."

      Well, yeah. You don't go about announcing you are committing war crimes to the impressionable suckers bankrolling the crimes, do you?

  • Muslim Student Union threatened with suspension for disrupting Israeli Ambassador
    • Cant have the underclass criticising the representatives of the overlords in public, I'm afraid.

  • From birthright to boycott
    • From the end of a talk by John Stockwell, more than 20 years ago:

      'What can I do?'.... If you can travel, go to Nicaragua and see for yourself. Go to the Nevada test site and see for yourself. Go to Pantex on Hiroshima day this summer, and see the vigil there. The place where we make 10 nose-cones a day, 70 a week, year in and year out. He [Admiral LaRock] said, `I'd tell them, if they feel comfortable lying down in front of trucks with bombs on them, to lie down in front of trucks with bombs on them.' But he said, `I'd tell them that they can't wait. They've got to start tomorrow, today, and do it, what they can, every day of their lives'.

      That made a huge impression at the time. It still does. We do what we can, we do what we think will help.

  • Fair and balanced, the inquiry commission is
    • The Case for an Impartial Turkish Inquiry

      by Ahmed Amr / June 14th, 2010

      (excerpt)

      "There is an unmistakable stench in the air. It seems to me that the Israelis are trying to cover up for more than just a ‘botched’ raid. They’ve killed tens of thousands of innocents before and gotten away with it. Jerusalem and its proxies in the American mass media didn’t even get this worked up over the Goldstone report that documented their criminal war spree in last year’s carpet bombing of Gaza. What gives? What is it about this single act of mass murder on the high seas that has Netanyahu and the Americans so concerned? Getting the answer to that question should be the focus of the Turkish inquiry. Did the Israeli cabinet give orders to use deadly force on the high seas and did they specifically target Turkish nationals? Was that the reason for the night attack? Is that why they confiscated evidence and kept sixty journalists incommunicado for two days? Is that why they don’t want their own officers to testify?"

      link to dissidentvoice.org

  • Israel called him a 'terrorist'; but hear his family's story
    • Every time I see the photograph of Ziad al-Jilani with his daughter Yasmeen posted in this piece I get angry with myself because there is nothing I can think of to say that could possibly be adequate to what happened to this family. Grotesque crimes like that happens just about every day in Palestine. Or maybe several times a day, I don't know.

  • A conversation about the Warsaw Ghetto
    • People executed nazi collaborators after WW2, certainly not enough of them, as there was plenty of them left over to help the cia for many years after the war - in their new wars. I guess it's rather obvious I have little sympathy for those who aide oppressors.

    • lysias

      "Ah, but to what extent is it Hamas that is firing those rockets?"

      That's a good point considering how many times israel has been caught running those sorts of black ops.

  • Let's get the facts straight on Hamas
    • "The Jewish Community Relations Council of New York and five NY Congressional representatives"

      Those are all agents of an enemy state who wantonly murders americans. What are they doing out of prison?

  • The moral authority of non-violence
    • What I liked about the Ajl piece was it was not polemic, but practical oriented. Once you adopt a rigid framework to operate in, your opponent need only use that to nullify what you are trying to do. Resistance to an occupying colonial power is a war, and those resisting need to be able to adapt their tactics to their circumstances and use the criteria of whether the tactics are working and if they can actually use the tactic.

      With non-violent resistance, publicity is a large part of its effectiveness. If there is no publicity, non-violence will not help much in the face of a violent oppressor. Likewise, if one is grossly outmatched, violent resistance is likely to just result in the resistance's annihilation.

      First off, one needs to maneuver themselves into a position where they can pick and chose their "battles", and not always be subjected to being reactive and on the defensive. That requires flexibility and a toolkit that allows one to adjust and change their tactics at will.

      I agree with the premise of Ajl that these are tactics, not some philosophical framework of laws that must be adhered to (for lack of being able to think of a better way of putting it at the moment).

    • Great comments. Much better than the article, as with what happened with the taylor piece.

  • Palestinian Gandhi finds, No mitzvah goes unpunished
    • The israeli treatment of Ms. Zoaby reminds me of the way Jewish people were treated during the 1930's in Germany.

  • Christian Zionists were the sine qua non of the creation of Israel
    • Not to mention the kiddie fiddling...

    • "It’s more likely Catholics are less inclined to endorse zionism"

      There's apparently a sizable catholic contingent doing pro-israeli web spamming, though. I was surprised to find out how many of those I thought were zionist Jews or neo-con fundy Protestants turned out to be Catholic. And also that there were quite few ziospammers pretending to be progressives/leftist who were also Catholic. The zionist hasbara machine must have a fairly strong Catholic wing.

      Another interesting thing is tony blair's stealth Catholicism, him being a staunch zionist. Then there's those popes (did I spell that right?) and their weird subservience to zionism and past nazi collaborations... :D

    • I mentioned in the other thread that the Christian right began as anti-Semitic, and that zionist/israeli influence shifted the Christian right leadership into a pro-israel position. Which they then duped their "flocks" with. But since the "flocks" had been inundated for generations of anti-Semitism, the people following these new love israel policies had not quite caught up with the message yet, and while they were pro-israel, they still practiced a lot of anti-Semitism. A lot of it probably wasn't really intentional. A lot was, though.

      In a similar vein, I had a conversation with a far right, Catholic nutcase years ago, when the neo-con disease was just taking off among the general public. He cracked racist jokes about Jews and repeated neo-con propaganda verbatim. It didn't register with the guys, he was using far right talking points cooked up by Jewish neo-cons.

      I mention this because with a lot of these people, their prejudice and their gullibility go hand in hand. A little bit of sophisticated psychology, is all it takes to wrap them around one's finger.

  • My brother-in-law was going to pray when he was killed
    • Just about every day zionists/israelis commit these crimes in Palestine. I have grown so goddamned disgusted with these monsters that saying I do not recognise them as human or that I think of them as nazis would be a gross understatement.

      What the people of Palestine go through because of this disgusting israeli freakshow rivals the Warsaw Ghetto.

  • 'LA Times' runs two incisive pieces on the conflict
    • Siege takes toll on Gaza children

      International pressure has been mounting on Israel to lift its blockade of Gaza since the deadly raid on an aid flotilla bound for the Palestinian territory.

      The UN has said 80 per cent of people there depend on food hand-outs.

      But Israeli officials insist that there is no humanitarian crisis in the enclave.

      UN aid workers inside Gaza, however, see a different reality.

      Al Jazeera's Nicole Johnston reports from Gaza, where it has been reported that about 14 per cent of children suffer from stunted growth due to malnutrition.

      link to english.aljazeera.net

      See the video at the link for the full story.

    • "Name Of Slain American Activist Omitted From New York Times Article”

      It's bad form to associate israeli crimes with american victims in the u.s. media. They might get the "wrong" ideas.

    • "Why should it take so long for a days-old innocent baby with such a serious problem?"

      Because you are dealing with the mentality of nazis.

  • Non-violence is not a principle, it is a tactic
    • Richard Witty June 14, 2010 at 9:07 pm

      "And, I see poor judgements."

      You could always change your ways, you know. Though, depending on the crimes you've committed, you may just want to lay low, rather than come forth with full disclosure. But it's up to you.

    • David Samel June 14, 2010 at 3:48 pm

      A couple of years ago, I accused craig murray of being a conduit for mi6 propaganda. He was repeating mi6 disinformation verbatim, I didn't have much choice in the matter. ;D

      (But to his credit, he didn't deny it, though. )

      :D

    • I posted this under the bromwich article, but really, it applies more to this piece by Ajl:

      What I liked about the Ajl piece was it was not polemic, but practical oriented. Once you adopt a rigid framework to operate in, your opponent need only use that to nullify what you are trying to do. Resistance to an occupying colonial power is a war, and those resisting need to be able to adapt their tactics to their circumstances and use the criteria of whether the tactics are working and if they can actually use the tactic.

      With non-violent resistance, publicity is a large part of its effectiveness. If there is no publicity, non-violence will not help much in the face of a violent oppressor. Likewise, if one is grossly outmatched, violent resistance is likely to just result in the resistance's annihilation.

      First off, one needs to maneuver themselves into a position where they can pick and chose their "battles", and not always be subjected to being reactive and on the defensive. That requires flexibility and a toolkit that allows one to adjust and change their tactics at will.

      I agree with the premise of Ajl that these are tactics, not some philosophical framework of laws that must be adhered to (for lack of being able to think of a better way of putting it at the moment).

    • Sumud June 14, 2010 at 3:58 pm

      "hayate – cool it will you?.....known by MW regulars to be genuine."

      Ok, Sumud, he's genuine, but just likes to misrepresent what others write....

      ;D

    • Funny how when discussing zionist/israeli subjects, one finds posters working together in packs more intent on defending each other, rather than honestly debating the subject. Now why would people do that?

    • David Samel June 14, 2010 at 9:28 am

      I see you are back at misrepresenting what people write in order to make yourself look rosy:

      "Why am I not surprised that you misinterpreted my remarks about Hiroshima and Nagasaki ending the war? (I did add Dresden but did not say that ended the war.) Somehow, you take my condemnation of these bombings as endorsement. In fact, I used them as examples of “violence works” that I was pretty sure Max would not share. I intended to demonstrate that that slogan could be misused with horrifying consequences."

      I never said anything of the sort, this what I wrote:

      "He starts the para off decently and does stick to the meaning of Ajl’s piece, but from “It might even be” on he goes off into typical zio-misdirection never never land. There is no place where Ajl advocated/defended attacks on civilians and that rubbish doesn’t even relate to what Ajl wrote. And beyond that, the rubbish about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden war crimes ending the war is american propaganda. Dresden ended the war against Germany? Ffs! The Soviet declaration on Japan and swift conquest of Manchuria and Northern Korea and the Soviet army occupying Berlin are what ended the war, not the gratuitous and criminal slaughter of civilians towards the end. Not only that, the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden were demonstrations to instill fear into the Soviets, not the people bombed. They were the opening salvos of the cold war. In fact, these war crimes are much more akin to modern israeli war crimes of demonstration violence. This is no accidental mix-up on the part of ds, he knew exactly what he was doing there."

      What ds characterised as what I wrote is not even close to it. The part where a real misunderstanding could have occurred is the bit about Dresden ending the war. His original:

      "That goes for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which clearly were effective in ending WWII, and Dresden as well."

      If he didn't mean it helped end the war, his writing is sloppy, and his inclusion of the act, with the other two, then, is unclear, as he doesn't associate the Dresden bombing with anything else. But as it is written in his post, it clearly looks to me ds meant that the Dresden bombing did help end the war.

      He then goes on to repeat his misrepresentations of the Ajl and to slyly infer meaning that Ajl did not express and which meanings, by one of those strange coincidences, always seem to make ds look rosy and sweet smelling and Ajl look, at best, confused, and at worst, advocating the opposite of what he intended. Original:

      "Also, Max focuses almost entirely on Taylor’s narrow point regarding the Mavi Marmara, and does not attempt to deal with the type of violence that has made Palestinians look awful in the eyes of the world, and even pathetic. Indeed, his article implies that the ship’s passengers did goad the Israelis into their murderous violence, and were right in doing so, because we finally have worldwide sentiment ignited against the Israelis. I’m not sure if he really means that, and I hope he does not. That is precisely the line we hear from the hasbarists."

      Then repeated in a slightly changed form above:

      "You say that Max does not advocate violence against civilians. True, and I don’t accuse him of it. What I do say is that he never condemns such violence, and his remarks could be misinterpreted as advocacy, at least in certain circumstances."

      Ds uses a technique where lays out the misrepresentation, draws attention to it, and then later "Oh, I hope he really didn't mean that", when it is obvious Ajl didn't mean that. The only reason ds invented the implication was to imply Ajl did and then make ds's misrepresentations look correct so ds could then shoot them down. I don't remember the specific name for this debating trick, but I've run into it frequently when discussing things related to zionism and israel. Ds went about it in a very clever manner, pretending he agreed with Ajl's basic humanity, and then slyly drawing Ajl's humanity into question with innuendo and misrepresentation of what the man wrote. In the context of this discussion, it's obvious that discrediting Ajl's pov, and promoting that of nagler/taylor is in zionist/israeli interests. Obviously, ds has a bit of experience at this, so instead of convincing me you are for real, ds, you've only convinced me further that my initial gut reaction to your sleazy trickery was correct. Congratulations.

    • lareineblanche June 14, 2010 at 8:09 am

      "This is a difficult question, as Max himself has said in the article above. "

      Yes, but Max didn't then go on to misrepresent what taylor/nagler wrote as ds did of what Max Ajl. It's enough to disagree with a pov and explain why. Misrepresenting what the person says to make your own pov then seem the correct one is not a very honest way to engage in a discussion. Now why would an "honest" person do that?

    • decentjew June 14, 2010 at 1:30 am

      I agree about the u.s. being the main problem here. And you may be right about the u.s. never budging. But did you know that one of the major reasons the usa got out of S.E. Asia was world pressure? If it was done once, it can be done again. Even if zionists control the u.s. now. The current depression is much greater than the recession of the 70's and the usa is much more dependent upon foreign countries now than in the 70's. The zionist hold on the usa is a surface thing. It would not take much to blow it wide open. The zionists know this, hence their absolute refusal to allow any rebellion against israeli dominance in the u.s. media. If americans got to experience in their media the sorts of discussions the zionists had in their own media, the game would be up for israel. The americans cant hold out against the rest of the world indefinitely.

    • decentjew June 14, 2010 at 1:04 am

      That's a different scenario. The u.s. was in Iraq, Iraqis were not going to the usa and killing civilians. Those were attacks on an invading army, upon their soldiers. That is similar to Palestinians repelling israeli army attacks in Gaza. But you'll notice that the Iraqis are not attacking american soldiers nearly as often as they were before. I think why is that they realised the Iraqis killed in the retributions were not worth it. The americans were not leaving, but digging in. I think they decided to lay low and wait the americans out. Eventually, public support for the war, and the depression, would force the americans to leave, as in S.E. Asia. Fewer attacks would give the americans less reason to stay and er..."stablise the country for democracy".

      Incidentally, the usa did accomplish what it wanted in Iraq, or more accurately, what israel wanted. Which was the destruction of Iraq as a country that could oppose anything israel wanted or did. The usa has not left Iraq yet, and despite obama rhetoric to the contrary, there is no concrete signs it will soon.

    • decentjew June 14, 2010 at 12:55 am

      I think everyone is aware of the brutality of the israelis. I personally don't consider them to be any different that the WW2 nazis. And that's why I think attacking them more will do anything more than bring the zionist hammer down upon Palestine faster.

      The WW2 French resistance is glorified, but do you know how much they accomplished? Not very much, and they got a lot of French civilians killed in the nazi retributions. The reason why is they were not powerful enough to prevent the retributions. The French resistance was never remotely strong enough to repel the nazis or do serious damage to their war machine. At most, they were a nuisance.

      Likewise, the Palestinians are not powerful enough to repel israeli war crimes against them and they are not powerful enough to seriously threaten israel in any military manner. It would be futile and suicidal to try and nobody would come to their rescue.

      In my opinion, the only chance the Palestinians have is to get the world on their side and active against israel. Killing israeli civilians would prevent that from happening.

      As for defending yourself when attacked, that's different, and I wont presume to tell anyone what to do under those circumstances.

    • And then there was this para:

      "Also, Max focuses almost entirely on Taylor’s narrow point regarding the Mavi Marmara, and does not attempt to deal with the type of violence that has made Palestinians look awful in the eyes of the world, and even pathetic. Indeed, his article implies that the ship’s passengers did goad the Israelis into their murderous violence, and were right in doing so, because we finally have worldwide sentiment ignited against the Israelis. I’m not sure if he really means that, and I hope he does not. That is precisely the line we hear from the hasbarists."

      That in no way, shape or form describes the pov expressed by Ajl. Those opinions are an invention by ds (a strawman) he can then shoot down. This is dishonest and typical of sayanim/hasbarat internet debate tactics.

    • decentjew June 13, 2010 at 11:57 pm

      I cant agree with that. Attacking israeli civilians like that wont get them off Palestinian backs, it will cause the israelis to ramp up their genocide/ethnic cleansing policies in an effort to remove Arabs from the region faster. It will also aide the israeli pr machine in getting opinion on their side, both in israel (granted, they pretty much already got that sewed up), but also around the world. In short, it will make the job of the israeli fascists much easier as they will just go into full nazi mode and the world wil use the israeli civilian deaths to excuse the israeli's genocidal behaviour.

    • OK Shmuel, I'll go into more detail. From David Samel June 13, 2010 at 9:39 pm:

      "Max Ajl’s analysis is more thoughtful, but he simplifies things as well. Violence works? Yeah, I guess sometimes, but it more often backfires, and often is morally indefensible. Max and other commenters raise the specter of a soldier who has killed and is threatening to kill again. All but the most committed pacifist would agree that disarming and even using force, perhaps lethal force, on the soldier is absolutely defensible. And true, Israelis might well have held onto South Lebanon forever had there been no violent resistance. It might even be argued that violence against Israeli civilians in the north influenced the IDF to withdraw both in 2000 and 2006, but there are some lines I am unwilling to cross, and lethal indiscriminate violence against civilians is on my “never do” list. That goes for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which clearly were effective in ending WWII, and Dresden as well. I don’t know Max Ajl, but would be surprised if he would defend the A-bomb with the slogan “violence works.”

      He starts the para off decently and does stick to the meaning of Ajl’s piece, but from "It might even be" on he goes off into typical zio-misdirection never never land. There is no place where Ajl advocated/defended attacks on civilians and that rubbish doesn't even relate to what Ajl wrote. And beyond that, the rubbish about the Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden war crimes ending the war is american propaganda. Dresden ended the war against Germany? Ffs! The Soviet declaration on Japan and swift conquest of Manchuria and Northern Korea and the Soviet army occupying Berlin are what ended the war, not the gratuitous and criminal slaughter of civilians towards the end. Not only that, the bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden were demonstrations to instill fear into the Soviets, not the people bombed. They were the opening salvos of the cold war. In fact, these war crimes are much more akin to modern israeli war crimes of demonstration violence. This is no accidental mix-up on the part of ds, he knew exactly what he was doing there.

      Throughout that post by ds, he misrepresents the argument in similar ways, subtly to the detriment of Ajl's pov and in favour of taylor. As I originally wrote, ds's opening and ending lines stated the purpose of the post. The rest was filler to support that pov.

    • David Samel June 13, 2010 at 11:24 pm

      Where have I heard that line before in defense of a soft-sell marketing job? Gee, I'll have to scratch me 'ead for a while.

      "and Matt does not deserve the treatment he is receiving here."

      IE: the whole point of that dishonest spiel. When are you lot going to realise that what you open with and what you end with is what gives you guys away? I'm only telling you this so that your efforts to undercut opposition to zionism/israel will become more effective. Honest guv. ;D

    • "This is a very complex issue, and I think some of the vitriolic criticism of Matt Taylor is quite unfair. Wolf in sheep’s clothing who hopes to perpetuate the occupation? Calm down. At worst, he is a sheep where a wolf would be preferable. While I lean toward pacifism, I do not consider myself a total pacifist, but have a great deal of respect for those who do adopt that philosophy. I don’t see why it is necessary to vilify Taylor for leaning in that direction."

      These soft-sellers of the zionist status quo always seem to start out with the same exact spiel. That 1st para tells me right off that the rest will be a clever defense of something designed to keep positive change from happening.

    • I don't know if anybody has seen Lauren Booth's description of the Mavi Marmara survivor testimony, but what they say has a lot to bear on the subject of non-violence, especially in relation to israel and zionists:

      Shocking Testimonials from the Mavi Marmara Survivors

      by Lauren Booth / June 12th, 2010

      (excerpts)

      One of the most striking trends following the flotilla attack has been how quickly Israeli hasbara is being exposed by internet journalists. The doctored IOF audio clips, where amateurs with mock Arab accents hiss ‘Go back to Auschwitz’ to Israeli naval officers. Well they didn’t take long to pull apart did they? Then there are the (so-pathetic-they’re-almost-funny claims the flotilla was linked to Al Qaeda. I laughed out loud to read in an Israeli paper that humanitarian activist (and former US marine) Ken O’Keefe was going to Gaza to; ‘train a commando unit in Hamas.’ I know Ken fairly well. Quite frankly I’m not sure who should be more insulted by this stupidity him or Hamas? Either way flinging the words ‘Hamas’ ‘Jihadists’ and ‘Israel’s security’ around is no longer having the same shock and awe effect on journalists or the public at large.

      The internet now shapes the world’s story, not the Israeli Foreign Ministry.

      Now, evidence is emerging, that having been forced (by Turkish hard line diplomacy) to release all of the kidnapped passengers sooner than it would have liked; Israel is (as usual) taking revenge on the Palestinian relatives of activists onboard. Those who seek to non violently oppose Zionist policies of Apartheid violence are having loved ones interrogated by the Shabak as you read this for merely sailing with the Freedom Flotilla. I am not at liberty to say much more for fear of even further reprisals on innocent people. But as you should by now be aware, the Israeli machine specialises in collective punishment. This week a spokesman in the US said live on air that ‘Children in Gaza were under siege because their parents voted Hamas.’ Too much to say on that, so I’ll leave it hanging for you to take in

      When the Israeli commandos attack began Jamal was wearing his pyjamas under a life jacket as were so many of the allegedly ‘prepared terrorists on board.’ Helicopters caused a near hurricane on the decks, all satellite phones were jammed (deliberately to stop SOS calls to the rest of the world). And, so the IDF hoped, any factual reports of what was about to occur.

      At this point, just after four thirty am, Jamal saw a Turkish passenger shot in the top of his head. He spoke slowly and clearly to make sure he was understood by us all in the hall.

      ‘No Soldier was on the ship at this time’.

      Quickly another passenger removed a white t-shirt from a bag and used it as a white flat of surrender. When gun shots rang out, greater numbers fell. It was clear calls for mercy were to be ignored. That a shoot to kill policy was in place.

      An Israeli member of the Knesset and Lubna (an activist who also speaks Hebrew) took turns making announcements over the tannoy in English and then Hebrew. Announcements made at least 8 times;

      ‘We have critically injured people here, please can you come and get them. We are NOT armed. We SURRENDER!’

      Soon the tannoy connection was cut off.

      In Beersheva prison, he was placed in a cell, with a leader from the Turkish human rights group, IHH. They had no food for 24 hours, just a few sips of water. They had no idea if the world knew where they were or what had happened. In other parts of the prison, consular reps from Greece, France, Spain and Macedonia could be heard shouting at the Israeli captors demanding the release of their compatriots. Yelling that rights were not being respected, yelling for food, water, access to legal representation. From the British consul.

      Nothing.

      There was more much more from the survivors, which was videotaped and I will post as soon as it comes online. But let’s get back to the Zio-bots now. For alongside Press TV cameras and PSC workers filming the testimonies, there was the compulsory, sulky faced Zionist, shooting footage of the event for some organization opposed to justice, and free speech. Curiously, as the survivors described their horrors in depth, this woman’s camera was aimed NOT at the stage. But at my Press TV colleagues.

      I went outside for a cigarette and there she was again. Instantly recognisable as a tight lipped Proto Zionist. She asked if I was with Press TV and would I speak to her for “Israeli TV?” Clearly she was not from any broadcaster — as no valid news channel accepts shaky, amateur hand held footage of the sort she was producing. Curious about her real intentions, I said ‘with pleasure.’

      ‘So do you think Press TV has done enough to give the Israeli side of events concerning the flotilla?’

      Did I pause? It felt like a must have, just to have the time to process that after an hour of harrowing testimony about a massacre, this woman, had heard and felt – nothing.

      ‘The BBC has given Mark Regev enough space for your cause don’t you think,’ I replied

      ‘Yes but don’t you think Press TV ought to….’ and then it happened. The white rage. I heard children crying in Gaza, saw fishermen being shot along the coast, phosphorous plummeting onto schools and UNWRA food stores. I saw the massacre on the Freedom Fleet, the torture, the needless, avoidable death..

      ‘Go fuck yourself,’ I heard myself saying. And to make sure I couldn’t be misquoted I added.

      ‘Just fuck off.’

      link to dissidentvoice.org

      I strongly recommend reading the whole piece.

    • The following short debate between Petras and Finkelstein I think gives a good idea of where Finkelstein's mind is on these issues in general, if not specifically on all of them.

      The Pro-Israel Lobby Debate

      by Hagit Borer, James Petras, and Norman Finkelstein

      April 17, 2007

      link to dissidentvoice.org

      I came away from that debate wondering if Finkelstein was a serious thinker, at all.

    • That's good news. Especially given the shift to the right in South Korean politics the last few years.

    • This piece by Max Ajl is outstanding.

  • A father, 41, is killed at a Jerusalem checkpoint. Now whose story should you believe?
  • Let's be clear: We have taken the American left
    • Rian is running one of their informal polls on the terrorist attack by israel on the Gaza convoy and should should be done about it. Check it out soon as the sayanim/hasbarats monitoring this site are likely to inform their cyber co-criminals to start spamming it.

      In your opinion, how should the world community react to Israel’s recent attack on the ships bringing humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip?

      1. The world community should ignore the incident; Gaza has been subject to an Israeli blockade for years and the activists had no right to attempt to break it.

      2. The world community should recognize Palestinian nationhood in response

      3. World powers should devise sanctions against Israel, cut if off from foreign assistance, cancel military training, and recall their ambassadors.

      4. World powers should invade Israel to remove the present government to ensure peace in the Middle East.

      Results:

      1. - 97 / 8.3%

      2. - 231 / 19.9%

      3. - 413 / 35.5%

      4. - 421 / 36.2%

      Almost the same percentage results as yesterday when I first noticed the poll. Most of the respondents are not Russian, but English speaking westerners. Had it been frequented by Russians, you can bet the latter two options would have been chosen by a much higher percentage of respondents. :D Only a small percentage of Rian material is translated and posted in their English language version so Russian speakers are not the main audience and stick to their own section pretty much. The same can be said of the other editions in other languages. This poll is actually rather unusual for Rian in that the options are neutral and relevant about israel, and the options provide for serious dissatisfaction with israel. In the past, their coverage of israel, in the English version, has been very measured and either neutral or slightly leaning to the israeli pov. They do not put up much coverage of Palestine/israel issues at all, unless there is something being given a lot of play in the world's media.

    • "What ‘American left’ is this? Kucinich and Amy Goodman?

      There’s no American left, anymore than there’s an Israeli left."

      That's a good point. One can't be zionist and a leftist any more than one can be a neo-confederate and a leftist (although there are probably a few in the south who make that claim about themselves - ;D ). The support many who I thought were leftists gave to the israeloamerican "green color revolution" covert regime change op in Iran really opened my eyes. Any "leftist" promoting a mossad/cia/mi6 regime change op is no leftist. While opposition to that war crime came from left, right and centre of the political spectrum, leftist support for cia funded regime change in Iran is like "leftist" support for any of the other "color revolutions" or for the recent Honduras coup.

    • I heard portman talk about israel some time back in an interview or something and she was pro-zionist, but I don't remember anything specific about it, just remember being disappointed to find that out. Later, I was surprised to find she was israeli.

      I agree with Jim Holstun about most of the celebrities are not saying anything in order to keep out of the controversy, for their career's sake. Not many do speak out, it seems, either one way or another, on Palestine/israel issues usually, anyway. Though I may miss a lot of their activism on the pro-israel side because I don't watch, listen to or read much about celebrities.

      I strongly suspect that support for israel is a litmus test to greater fame in hollywood and definitely in the american pop music industry (hit radio sort of pop, I mean).

  • Reliable sources prove reliable on Helen Thomas
    • Or just as bad, the nazis did.

    • Good to see Stone and Ventura stomp these bigoted freaks, but because this is so rare on zionist run american television, I stopped watching the rubbish years ago. The bigotry and grotesque propaganda that spews forth from that goebbelsian institute now sickens me. It's like the klu klux klan won out after all.

  • Don't blame the Jews for the Israel lobby
    • In my opinion, the zionist lobby has been a powerful force in american politics (and society) at least since during WW2. They definitely had large enough hooks into the war criminal truman so that he aided the formation of israel. Back then, though, I don't think the zionist lobby was the dominant power behind america, I'm not sure how powerful they were in relation to the other fascist forces that shaped american politics and society. Apparently there was not enough support among the american oligarchies for unilateral u.s. support for israel back in the 40's and 50's when the bulk of direct support for israel came from Europe with the usa providing indirect support. One could say the Europeans supported israel because the usa forced them too, which is probably true, but the usa used this method because at home the zionist lobby lacked the power to force the issue openly, so relied upon proxies to support israel, to whom the usa wouldn't be directly seen responsible. IE: the zionist lobby was not the most powerful and still faced serious opposition to their positions.

      Gradually, though, the zionist lobby gained power in the usa and the roles of Europe and the usa switched with the usa providing the bulk of direct support to israel and Europe now in the role of providing more indirect support. The switch was gradual, I think, with by the 70's, it being obvious the usa was now israel's largest supporter. When the israeli actually gained the upper hand in the usa appears to be later, probably not until late in the raygun regime or during the following bush regime. By the clinton regime, the israeli lobby was definitely in control.

      The israeli lobby got a huge boost in power during the raygun regime due to its control over the Christian zionists. With them backing zionist policies, they were able to gain a similar dominant position over "conservative" politics (the neo-cons) similar to their dominant position in american "liberal" politics (the neo-libs).

      This take-over began years before, though. It was mostly complete by the late 70's after men. begin openly got behind them. In the mid'70s I noticed this Christian revival first when I started seeing cars with "I found it" bumper stickers. Up till then Christianity looked like it was a dying religion in the usa. Before that time, the media had been getting more critical of Christian doctrine and repression. After that time, they became less critical. It used to piss me off how they would coddle these superstitious fanatics and hardly counter the gibberish and just present them, and their fanatical politic, as legit subjects of discussion, not as objects of ridicule, as most people saw them. At the time I didn't realise it, but this was the work of zionist control of the media. They framed the dialog so that the Christian right would be seen as something much more powerful than it was, and also as having a legit pov, as opposed to the rantings of superstitious nuts, that they obviously were. In other words, the zionist controlled media deliberately held back criticism of the Christian right and more and more promoted their spiel, both on the sly and openly. This clever marketing campaign is how zionists empowered their Christian zionist puppets.

      But zionists not only empowered the Christian right, they took it over. The Christian right has always played a large role in american politics. Face it, america is a country that has always consisted of an excess of Christian nuttery. But until relatively recently, that Christian activism was not very zionist. A lot of american anti-Semitism was housed in the Christian right. In the 50's, Jews were evil commies, bent on world atheism, to the Christian right. By the 70's, Jews were the "good guys". So between the 50's and the 70's, in the Christian right, Jews went from being "bad guys" to "good guys" (incidentally, commies are still the "bad guys" in the Christian right - so their primary role is still that of capitalist crowd control tools). One can see how the movement was used to promote anti-communism, by america's capitalist oligarchy throughout the 20th century, but zionism played no early role as far as I know. During the 60's and 70's, the Christian right leadership switched from promoting Jewish people as being "bad guys" to "good guys", and this was due to the zionist lobby and zionist money. In other words, the Christian right leadership was recruited by zionists to promote israeli interests. Established leaders were recruited, and many new leaders were created. Those not going along were disempowered, one way or another, and saw their "flocks" dispersed. The followers were instructed to be proper zionist supporters and to support israel, right or wrong, and many are quite fanatical about this. But what I find telling is the majority of the these followers that I've come across still seem to harbour anti-Semitic leanings, the result of their past generations of programming to hate the "killers of our savior" that hasn't died out yet with the influx of the new zionist programming. Old ingrained habits die slowly.

  • The problem with soccer, redux
    • I worked with a guy a couple of years ago who played both american football and baseball in college. He told me about how he struck out this one player who was a very good hitter. His coach wanted him to walk the guy because they'd lose the game if he got a run in. My co-worker went for the strike out instead and he described all that went into how he did it.Much of this was psychological warfare between pitcher and batter. :D I'm not a sports fan generally, except for a certain high school's basketball team a few years ago when my daughter played for them ;D , but after listening my co-worker, I understood what fans watching baseball were actually seeing. I'd never realised the depth before.

    • Did you catch this goal:

      England's and ITV's first World Cup 2010 HD goal.....WORTH WAITING FOR!!!!!

      link to youtube.com

      ;D

  • Nader: 'Anti-semitism against Arabs is rife' in U.S.
    • Palestine should return to its pre-1947 borders, though without the British, of course. Allowing israel to continue to exist as a separate entity is about as absurd now as allowing the american confederacy or South African apartheid to still exist. I mean, this is the 21st century, not the ignorant days of the 19th century. It's time people caught up.

    • Good point, melka.

    • I doubt maher is still a member of the human race. His bigotry matches that of a typical klu klux klan orifice. The boy is no lefty, not even remotely. He's a ziofascist masquerading as a liberal. As for maddow, how did she get to where she is in the first place? That should explain her silence.

    • A da da da, a do do do....

    • Sounds good, but what about Arab israelis who don't support the israeli rubbish? I've recently had a few great exchanges with an anti-zionist, Jewish israel immigrant, people like this would be blocked, as well. As for the sayanim/hasbarats, most of that crap is done outside israel, already, so blocking israeli ips wont stop that.

      But when zionists start in with their fascist crap, posting their ip addresses with their posts should cure the sayanim/hasbarat shenanigans of most of this crowd. ;D

    • "Holy BDS!"

      That's cool. :D

    • Shouldn't you have ended that spiel with Sieg heill!!!!! ?

      Or is it Sieg hiell!!!!! ?

      I'm sure dick would know.

    • Semitic is a language group, like Altaic or Indo -European-Iranian. Archaeologists/linguists have shown how these languages move from region to region, sometimes traveling with specific cultures, sometimes not. In ancient Sumeria (Iraq now), Sumerian and Alkadian (the latter may be spelled wrong) languages have been found in the writing. It appears the Sumerian language was the native and Alkadian was intrusive. While the grouping of Sumerian is still debated, Alkadian has been grouped as a Semitic language. I think the Semitic languages are thought to have originated in the Saudi peninsula and then spread out from there. By the time of Babylon, about 1000 years later (2000bc), the region mostly spoke Semitic languages, anciet Babylonian is Semitic. I may be wrong, but the area of Palestine today was not originally Semitic, but became so like the Iraq region became. The Phoenicians spoke a Semitic language. I do not believe ancient Egyptian is a Semitic language. To make this short, Hebrew is only one of many different Semitic languages, most of which have died out, and that assigning the Semitic label to only Jewish people is like saying all Indo-European-Iranians are Englishmen. :D

      Bit of trivia, Iranian comes from Aryan. The peoples who migrated to Iran and northern India between 3000 and 1500bc. The swastika symbol was stolen from India. It's an ancient Indian symbol. The ancient Aryans, while not pale skinned blondes, were lighter in complexion than many of those peoples occupying India already at the time, and racial colour, along with language, was used to divide the two groups between conquered and conqueror, with the Aryans, being the conquerors, being the privileged. Modern Iranian and Hindu languages derive from this ancient Indo-Iranian - which had absolutely nothing to do with Europeans or Germans. The Indo-European and Indo-Iranian sub-groups separated 1000's of years ago with Germanic languages (this includes English, btw) developing from the Indo-European branch.

    • Actually, Nader is un-"newspeaking"* the term anti-Semitism. The meaning of the term has been corrupted over the years to mean discrimination only against Jewish people. It actually means discrimination against Semitic peoples, of which Arabs are a part of. In other words, Nader is using the older, more accurate meaning of the term.

      *Un-newspeaking comes from the Orwell term "newspeak" where a term has its meaning altered to suit the political propaganda of the moment.

    • Cheers to Nader.

  • US position on flotilla is compromised by its love of drones
    • The usa has been practicing those sorts of terrorist actions and their precursors since the day the usa was formed. I don't think the israelis gave them any new concepts about how to fight, perhaps helped them hone their tactics, though. There is no mistake about the u.s. military being infiltrated by zionists and being tied closer to israel. That's probably causing a lot of internal conflict that isn't getting around much outside the military gossip channels. With the usa in general being more under the zionist boot, the military obviously would be too.

      One of the main things I think that has changed about american terrorist/war criminal practices is they are not hidden like they used to be. The americans brag about their crimes the way israelis do. Their torture chambers, their My Lais, their acts of collective punishment, these they tried to hide. Now the crimes are more or less done openly. Like the israelis do them. This I think is the largest change in the usa war crimes practices brought on by israeli/zionist domination in america. The arrogant fu attitude they have against everyone and the almost total unwillingness of the media to show any moral backbone or integrity.

    • What the usa has done to Iraq and Afghanistan are war crimes comparable to their war against Southeast Asia (Vietnam war) and their earlier war crimes against the Korean people. They get away with it because the american people let them.

  • We need Roger Cohen to stand up for his opposition to nationalist myth-formation
    • I'm afraid I'm not too impressed with Cohen's analysis of Yugoslavia, as written here. I am unfamiliar with him, or his writings otherwise.

      Back during bush, sr. election campaign, I heard a radio news report about bush rich supporters who were nazi collaborators during WW2. There was mention of a couple of ex-Yugoslavs, they were Croats who aided the nazis during WW2, then who gave service to the american's cia fighting the Russians post WW2 and eventually settled in the usa, adding their support to anti-communist causes. Bush, being lifetime cia, naturally would have had close associations with this sub-human rubbish.

      Then a couple of years later, with the USSR break-up, and Eastern Europe opening up to western intrusion, I read these same Croat nazis were headed over to Yugoslavia to add their 2 bits to Yugoslavian "liberation". Soon after that, Croatia and Serbia were at war and the break-up of Yugoslavia was in full swing.

      There were no "good guys" in this attack on Yugoslavia, but the portrayal of this deliberate attack by western capitalist forces as a defense against "evil" Serbs is the same sort of propaganda "big lie" as perpetrated against Iraq and now Iran. The western break-up of Yugoslavia was the test war that has lead to the horrors they are now inflicting upon Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and several regions in Africa such as the Sudan and Nigeria. They got away with destabilising Yugoslavia, their media successfully portrayed the crimes and now the public in the "west" has swallowed aggressive war as something positive.

      If you want to understand what messed up in the "western" left that allowed the Afghan/Iraq aggression and has so far prevented effective opposition to these war crimes, look to what happened during the western aggression against Yugoslavia. This was the trial balloon. The pitting of ethnic/religious differences against one another is identical to what these fascists and ziofascists are doing to Iraq and in the Afghan/Pakistan/Iran region. I don't know how closely people here have followed the news about Kyrgyzstan, but these same fascists/ziofascists are now running the same ethnic warfare strategy there. And yes, as with their Yugoslavian quislings, and their Latin American quislings, their Southeast Asian quislings, there is a lot of illegal drug trafficking, human trafficking, and now they got their new entrepreneurial hot item, human organ trafficking.

  • Recasting the Gaza blockade as a humanitarian project
    • "You don’t get much more Goebbels than this."

      Exactly. The difference between israeli/zionist propaganda and that of the nazis is that zionist propaganda is generally more sophisticated (not always, though, IE: american hate radio), generally more duplicitous and vastly more entrenched. The nazis were an isolated group of freaks, the zionists are mainstream. The goals of both, though, are essentially the same, as is the underlying ways of thinking. Only some of their victims are different, now. Only some of their victims.

    • Menachem June 12, 2010 at 1:31 am

      You damn yourself and your sacred fascists, sayanim/hasbarat, and you do it far better than I could. Keep going, israel/zionists need people like to represent them in public. :D

    • Follow-up.

      Dr. Alan Sabrosky has recently written a piece in which he expresses the view that the israeli brutality towards the Gazans is at least in part an effort to force them to leave:

      Israel’s Gaza Blockade

      Letting the Chips Fall Where They May

      by Dr. Alan Sabrosky / June 11th, 2010

      In a gesture that has received more than a little attention in the Western media, Israeli officials announced with some fanfare that they were easing the embargo of goods they allow into Palestine. Israel’s supporters have been using the opportunity to declare that this demonstrates Israel is reasonable, and that US support of Israel is fully justified, even given the exceptionally tepid US response to the Israeli assault on the Gaza flotilla and America’s sustained opposition to any international efforts to hold Israel accountable for its actions.

      This gesture becomes markedly less impressive once one examines the list of items once embargoed but now (at least for a while) allowed by Israel into Gaza. As a news website in India reported, “Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted.” Not much, to put it mildly, but to a suffering people in the ruins of their city, I imagine almost anything will be better than nothing. Besides, at least some of the aid supplies the Israelis have removed from the pirated Gaza flotilla vessels may end up in Gaza at some point, and that, too, will be something

      But the announced easing of the embargo, slight or even less than that, is significant in a way I am certain Israel did not intend, and which may even make a few of its supporters just a little anxious. This is because it provides an interesting insight into the real Israeli motivation behind the embargo, and thus of the blockade itself, and not the one it professes internationally and its cabal elsewhere echoes so vociferously.

      Consider, first of all, Israel’s defense of its blockade of Gaza as something that is essential for its security, with the accompanying embargo on products that it allows to enter Gaza officially being intended to deprive Hamas of anything that might strengthen its position there, and allow it to strike Israel anywhere with anything. This is the theme reiterated by Israeli officials when they halt land convoys and intercept sea-going ones, and applauded by its cheerleaders in the US Congress and the mainstream media in the US and elsewhere.

      Then look at the once-embargoed items now allowed at least temporarily into Gaza. Potato chips?? Potato chips were once considered by the Israeli government as a staple of Hamas support, or a weapon that could threaten Israel, or both?? Now I confess that I personally have nothing against potato chips. In fact, I love them. But I cannot see how they constitute a threat to anything except possibly the health of the person consuming them. They make terrible bunkers, hitting someone with a bag of potato chips — even a large one — cannot remotely be considered life-threatening, and putting them into a catapult and throwing them at a Merkava tank or a nearby Israeli town isn’t going to be a threat to anyone.

      So embargoing potato chips, like so many other items on Israel’s list in support of its illegal blockade of Gaza, has absolutely nothing to do with Israeli security interests — can we agree on this point? But it symbolizes a key aspect of the core Israeli strategy underlying the blockade, which is a blend of heavy-handed brutality and small-minded malevolence, designed first to ruin what little the Palestinians there have, and then to make sustained misery their present fare and future diet until they succumb and either go away, accept their Israeli overlords, or die.

      This strategy of the collective punishment of a people — which is a breach of international law and a war crime, ladies and gentlemen of any legislatures and media outlets who have not checked their ethics into their respective Israeli embassies and consulates — is essentially designed to hurt Palestinians and not to protect Israelis. The Israelis understand this, as do their supporters overseas. The Palestinians in Gaza, and many in the West Bank, certainly understand that — even Abbas may on those rare moments when thought works its way through the murkiness surrounding it. And so do those who try, often bravely but usually unsuccessfully, to bring some humanitarian aid to the people of Gaza.

      This knowledge alone isn’t much help. But it is always a good thing to really understand your enemy, and an enemy that has an affinity for dominance and inflicting deaths of a thousand cuts in the name of intangibles such as the Exodus theme, is very different from one that confronts you directly over tangible interests that permit compromise.

      Too many of us — myself once included — for too long have viewed Israelis as just a particularly nasty variant of a type often seen in the world, something like semi-Semitic Prussians or an apartheid-era South Africa of the Middle East. They are not. They are much worse, and much more dangerous to all of us, than either of those — the Palestinians and Israel’s neighbors are just in the front line now. Their chips — and not the edible ones — are on Israel’s playing table now. Do any of the rest of us really want to sit back and wait for our round in the game to begin at Israel’s pleasure?

      Alan Sabrosky (Ph.D., University of Michigan) is a writer and consultant specializing in national and international security affairs. In December 1988, he received the Superior Civilian Service Award after more than five years of service at the U.S. Army War College as Director of Studies, Strategic Studies Institute, and holder of the General of the Army Douglas MacArthur Chair of Research. He can be reached at: [email protected]. Read other articles by Dr. Alan.

      link to dissidentvoice.org

      The last paragraph is really the clincher, if you think about it. Remember that famous quote, "First they came for the x, I wasn't an x, so I remained silent. Then they came for the y, I wasn't a y, so I remained silent..." I've mangled it here out of laziness in not looking up the exact quote, but the meaning of where we stand remains. We put up with these fascists and become the new Jews in the concentration camps, figurtively and literally, or we put a stop to it.

    • Thanks sayanim menachem for providing further evidence that your 21st century nazi masters want to ethnically cleanse Gaza of all those impure, non-Jewish people.

      You wouldn't have taken the time otherwise. :D

    • "Since the object of the siege was to compel a change of leadership, it had to be rigorous enough to cause severe pain to a large majority of the civilian population; mere inconvenience or annoyance would not do."

      I question that is the real objest of the israeli brutality. I think they are trying to force the Palestinians to leave - ethnic cleansing.

    • Hmmmm...now the zionist propaganda machine wants everyone to believe their war crimes upon Gazans are really a humanitarian effort to make Gazan lives better and safer?

      Interesting. The nazis used the excuse they were herding Jewish people into concentration camps for the safety of the Jewish people and for their well being.

      If the nazis can do it, why not the israelis, eh?

      Hey stern, shamir! Guess what?

  • Gaza activists in prison stripes try to give themselves up to Congressman Brad Sherman
  • These 'Times' demand Robert Mackey
    • I agree.

    • I should clarify that. During the several months of "color revolution" in the Ukraine, the UK guardian printed 3 very good articles/op-ed pieces debunking that covert regime change op. But every day, in their news section, frequently on the front page, they had stories (and I do mean "stories") from their "corespondent in Kiev" repeating the orange propaganda. What stuck stuck most in the minds of their readership, 3 decent investigative commentaries/articles that provided facts, or 50-100 propaganda pieces of pure bs?

      The few good, informative articles get buried underneath the manure. The few informative articles give the rag a aura of credibility (sometimes with just a specific audience) while the propaganda is what lingers in the minds of the majority. And that's what really counts.

    • "All of which leaves an obvious question: Why are there such stark differences between the Times’ online work at the "Lede" blog and its pathetic reporting in print?"

      How many read the former and how many read the latter?

  • Report: Obama to call for independent inquiry of flotilla raid
    • Ah, so the sequence of events went something like this:

      The israelis accuse obama of not kissing israeli backside enough.

      Then obama responds, "Yes I am, nobody kisses israel bum as much as I do. I am the world's greatest kisser of israeli tush and I challenge you to prove otherwise."

  • Corporate media's message: Turkey is the new enemy
    • Looks like a post got removed. My June 12, 2010 at 1:30 am and follow-ups at 1:45 & 2:05 am were to that OTT post by keith, not to his earlier one of June 11, 2010 at 6:07 pm, which I had previously commented on at June 11, 2010 at 10:59 pm. Interesting yonira chose his attack at June 12, 2010 at 1:38 am, I've seen these subtle alliances at work before frequently when criticising zionists and zionist policy.

    • "If I was in the IDF I would be having an involuntary bowel movements at the thoughts of fighting the at Turks"

      It's well known the idf issues adult diapers to their troops if there is the smallest sign said troops will encounter armed opponents (Ie: not children and old women armed with caustic wit).

    • There's that victim card again. It's times like this I wish I could play the violin. :D

    • Walid

      I agree about the jury still being out regarding the Palestinians and israel, though I I'm fairly certain Turkey is going to continue towards a more independent path and continue to seek better relations with its other neighbours.

      It could all be a big charade, these new Turkish policies, but I don't see how the results would be worth such an effort.

    • melka

      These were interesting:

      February 9, 2008 Deep State Coup Averted in Turkey by Christopher Deliso

      balkanalysis.com

      link to antiwar.com

      &

      Turkey’s Coup that Failed Ibrahim Kalin 2010-03-05

      link to project-syndicate.org

    • BTW, something to clue you in to when you're being had by a propaganda hit piece, keith. When you read something which damns a country and it's people for something that happened nearly a 100 years ago, under a totally different style of guv and in a totally different era, you're being had. Damning Turkey for the Armenian genocide now is like damning Russia for czarist era pogroms against Jewish people or blaming Italians for death of Christ.

      Turkey has it's faults like any other nation and there is nothing wrong in pointing them out, but dragging up long past incidents in order to demonise that nation is just plain crap propaganda a teenager should be able to see through. The timing of the piece, and the fact znet posted nothing else about Turkey recently but that hit piece, the use of an israeli hasbara writer as a credible source, and the content shows that the purpose of the article was to damn Turkey, right now, when it's very important to israel/zionists, in the eyes of znet readership. As I said, the readers of it at znet who commented recognized the article for the turd it is. Don't blame me because you were unable to see through it, blame yourself.

    • Ah, scratch that, you're probably just insecure that I wouldn't be a disciple of your worldly wisdom. But frankly your attitude, insults and narrow mindedness reminds me of old school cold warriors who think because stalin was a certain way, Russians are all that way. Even today. That's how you are characterizing Turkey. Usually when I see someone jump on an israeli hasbara bandwagon and demonise their enemy of the moment, I assume the person is hasbarat, but sometimes, they are just plain slow.

    • Keith

      Thanks for coming out of the sayanim/hasbarat closet.

    • Remember, while israeli controls nato through their american colony, israel is not a member of nato officially or legally. It's not potentially two nato members attacking each other. It's a non-member attacking a member and that non-member forcing the rest of nato (through it's american colony) to accept it. From just about any standpoint, that seriously calls into question about what is the point of having nato exist anyway. Nobody but israel and its quislings could possibly be happy about such a state of affairs.

    • decentjew

      Countries don't remain static over time and guvs do change, the Erdogan/Gul guv and the party they come from represent a large change for Turkey. If they didn't, you would not see the zionists and their quislings getting so exited about demonising them. This is the sort of thing one sees when these fascists lose control of a colony.

      Are these nice guys, though?

      Not really, they're capitalists. But they are a large advance over the old israeloamerican owned and operated Turkish military backed guvs in Turkey.

      Are they for real about their support of the Palestinians and Muslim/Arab unity in the Mideast and regions?

      They better be, in their own practical interests. It's that or see themselves follow in Iraq's footsteps now. I mean that literally. You don't say no to these mafiosi and get away with it unless you can hurt them back, and for that you need allies. Betray your allies, you're all alone to face the zionists' terrorism. The people of the Mideast are waking up to the fact that the only way they can defend themselves from these ziofascists is to join together. Erdogan/Gul know that. I suspect they are the way of the future for the countries of the Mideast. They're not nice guys, but it wasn't nice guys who took down the nazis, either.

    • Keith

      "The phrase “the enemy of my enemy is my friend,” is a recipe for disaster. Turkey, at the moment, may seem to be the enemy of your enemy, but be cautious before you embrace Turkey as your friend."

      You appear confused, or you're playing strawman games. I don't claim to think of Turkey as "my friend", but I am interested in unbiased information about Turkey. By your praise of that piece of ziofascist propaganda that I linked, you appear to have difficulty telling information apart from propaganda. The piece is an obvious hit piece, full of anti-Turkey bias. The writer even used an israeli hasbara propagandist as a serious source. I could go and dismember the bias piece by piece, but it's so obvious a piece of yellow journalism, I question the need to do so on a site like this. If you cant see the propaganda for the propaganda it is, then it's really not worth my effort to hold your hand and walk you through it.

      The article was criticized in the comments at znet, as their shill pieces frequently are. A bit of irony here, though, is that the two commentators criticizing it have very different pov and normally are at each other's throats. :D But that article was so obviously a turd, that they both saw right through it. The 2nd person strongly recommended checking out the reader comments made to articles by the israeli hasbarat agmon over at huffyhuff. I'd take her advice on that, keith, if I were you.

    • They also wrote another one:

      The Iran Threat in the Age of Real-Axis-of-Evil Expansion1 by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson

      link to mrzine.monthlyreview.org

      All of these articles disproved the zionist lies znet was propagandising on their site and naturally, znet never featured them.

    • BTW, Herman and Petersen didn't stop with just that one article on the Iran "color revolution" they went on and wrote this one:

      Chutzpah, Inc.: "The Brave People of Iran" (versus the Disappeared People of Palestine, Honduras, Afghanistan, Etc.) by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson

      link to mrzine.monthlyreview.org

    • teahee

      Cheers

      "I didn’t realize that Znet etc had sunk this low. Seems Michael Albert & Co is now openly functioning as part of the Israeli propaganda machine."

      They certainly do when they think they can get away with it. Their coverage of the "color revolution" against Iran was an abysmal betrayal of their readers to israeloamerican propaganda. They kept out anything questioning that regime change attempt by israeloamerica. Like many of the other fake progressive sites, they were literally operating from a zionist "position paper", much like the usual suspects on the right do. But this "position paper" was written to bamboozle those on the left and get them behind the israeloamerican terrorism against Iran. Herman and Peterson did an excellent job debunking that piece of ziofascist propaganda, but even though Ed Herman is a regular contributor, z mag/net played games and tried to limit their reader's exposure to the Herman/Petersen article. The article was published at MR, and znet only linked to this very important article as part of a debate. One literally had to know it existed to find it at znet. The article:

      Riding the "Green Wave" at the Campaign for Peace and Democracy and Beyond by Edward S. Herman and David Peterson 24.07.09

      link to mrzine.monthlyreview.org

      The article I linked about Turkey from znet has that same stink to it. Perhaps the zionist cpd has written a similar "position paper" on Turkey? It wouldn't surprise me.

      There is actually a lot of good writing at znet, not necessary for znet, but duplicated there, by many writers who are obviously not sell-outs. The problem is in the site, not the majority of the writers they post up. The znet coverage of the Gaza convoy, besides that Turkey article was pretty much top notch stuff. But then, they more or less had no choice about that if they want any sort of credibility. Apparently it's only on some issues deemed very important to the israloamerican fascists, such as the Iran "color revolution" that znet goes into shill mode. Otherwise they post a lot of good info. The Turkey article is a reflection of their shilling on the sly, like that. It might be a precursor of their future coverage, or it might just be a one-off thing. It depends how important israeloamerica wants the left and progressives on board the Turkey demonisation bus.

      I was big fan of z magazine initially and subscribed from the time they started to the mid 90's. Their coverage of the Yugoslav break-up, or I should write, bust up, is what clued me in to something being wrong there.

    • Forgot this line:

      were they to attempt another coup.

      Which should have been after:

      by their own fellow soldiers.

    • potsherd

      The military has been defanged in the last year. Many of the potential coup plotters have been arrested and disgraced. Any left with israeloamerican loyalties would likely see themselves lynched now, by their own fellow soldiers. I seriously doubt the disloyal elements still left in the military have the power now to do much of anything.

    • teahee

      Yup, the split has been widening for a while, at least since the Turks denied the israloamericans the use of Turkish soil to attack Iraq from in 2003. That was quite a shock at the time and it put good sized dent in the war criminal's planning.

      I think what is causing the split is Turkey is becoming more independent. Before they were an israeloamerican colony, not they seem to be making their own decisions. Decisions that don't look like those made by a colony. The behaviour of the israloamericans since the 9/11 attacks has been a wake-up call to many people formerly their allies or puppets. Pretty much like hitler's aggression towards Czechoslovakia was. Those capable of jumping ship are doing so, those under the ziofascist thumb are, well, stuck, probably wishing they could. Turkey made the jump. A wise jump, a carefully planned jump. The last year has seen 100's of arrests of military and political people involved in coup plotting, ostensibly an old coup plot, but common sense tells one the Turks supporting the current guv decided they would do a little house cleaning and disempower the known israeloamerican quislings before they could cause any real trouble. Cause they would. Turkey has seen something like 4 military coups over the last half century, by people loyal to israeloamerican interests.

      My guess is Turkey has seen the writing on the wall and decided being the pawns of crazies is not very healthy, and they are charting a new course similar to that of India, or India before about 5 years ago. The reaction of israeloamerica to losing their colony is pushing Turkey away faster, though, than they probably would done on their own. One can thank zionists and their "you are with us or against us, we'll never forgive you for that time you said no" attitude.

    • syvanen

      Several days ago I mentioned that it was ironic that the isreal attack on the Mavi Marmara was helping bring together two countries that had been enemies for centuries, Turkey and Russia. Turkish ties to Russia have been expanding for several years and I believe Russia is Turkey's largest trading partner now. I don't think Turkey will be helped into the SCO by Iran, though, at least not anytime soon, since Iran is unlikely to get membership for a while, if they ever do. It was announced today that at the recent SCO meet, it was decided not to let in countries who have UN sanctions imposed against them.

      The Turks might join the BRIC group, though, I've heard talk of that recently.

    • BTW, it's not just the mainstream media the zionists are using to slander Turkey now. Back on the 6th, znet got the ball rolling by posting a slander article about Turkey that is in that typical tradition of zionist yellow journalism. The author even quoted some israeli hasbarat from huffyhuff as proof of the total evilness of the Turks. See:

      Post-Flotilla Ties Between Turkey and Israel: Irreparable Damage or Just a Hiccup?

      By Khatchig Mouradian

      link to zcommunications.org

      It looks like the zionists will use the same sort of campaign they are using against Iran. Their mainstream propaganda wing will go for the hard core overt goebbelsian style (perhaps Iraq's wmds will "appear" in Turkey now), while the zionist "progressive" wing will pick away at the Turks using a more subtle approach, such as the above article (and perhaps find a suitable, made to order anti-guv group, like they did with that israeloamerican "color revolution" regime change attempt in Iran).

    • Brazil also opposed the zionist sanctions against Iran and condemned israel for the terrorist attack on the convoy. Will the Brazilians now see hostile treatment in the zionist western corporate media and be slandered by the zionist quislings in western corporate guvs?

  • Gaza flotilla lesson: nonviolent discipline is the best moral and strategic choice
    • This article sucks to high heaven, on so many levels. It ignores the fact the israelis started killing people before anybody resisted. It ignores the fact the israelis intended to kill people to send a message to Turkey, especially, and to future aide workers, it ignores the fact the israelis would have attacked and killed people whether they resisted or not. I'll end it here since my objections have already been voiced. The article stinks of stealth zionist hasbara. People like taylor and nagler are why there is no left in the usa and why the american anti-war has accomplished zero this decade.

  • 'J Street' rabbi in Madison suggests that flotilla members were terrorists
    • "Holy crap, are all Zionists whiners?"

      I've yet to meet one who wasn't. :D

      (I think most of them are failed media critcs - one might wonder how someone could fail at being a media critic...)

    • Good ole j street, soft selling the terrorism and racism that is israel to the "moveon.org" crowd.

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