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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
Nope.
As far as I can tell, the only version of zionism that was not racist in theory was the kind put forward by those like Judah Magnes who believed in coexistence with the Palestinian people. All other zionists I've read from Herzl to Jabotinsky to Ben Gurion and others founders of Israel had very similar views about getting rid of the locals and gathering the Jews in.
The birth of the Palestinian nakba does not lie in antisemitism. It lies in a people who were oppressed deciding that they would get what they wanted no matter the cost to another people. It basically comes back to the horrific consequences of 19th century ethnocentrism and nationalism.
A toxic brew.
Maybe you see antisemitism in the left when you conflate Judaism with Israel?
Aha.
The 2001 Durban conference and the anti-semitic left. That issue is a red flag to me. I find it particularly racist that in a conference where the vast majority of the agenda was not about Israel, some like to claim that the entire legitimacy of the conference rests on the issue of Israel.
The first point I'd like to make is that the agenda was about genocide, particularly the genocide that was perpetrated in the New World by Europeans. The fact is that many of those countries used the zionism=racism fuss to boycott/discredit the conference and thus not have the finger pointed at their own culpability for the actions upon which their nations were founded as well as the continuing actions against indigenous people.
The second point I'd like to make is that zionism as it has been implemented in Israel is racist. Many of the writings of zionists of several strands are racist. Zionists who wanted to spirit away the local population and replace them with Jews were and are racists. Zionists who wanted to build an Iron Wall are racist. The zionists who committed acts of violence against Palesatinians, ethnically cleansed and massacred them and then didn't allow the refugees back to their own homes are racist. The zionists who placed Palestinians under martial law until 1966 inside the Green Line are racist. The zionists who pass racist laws and discriminate against Palestinians are racist. Israel belongs in that same club as those western nations that treated their own indigenous people so atrociously. That is what the 'shared values' are.
Your discussion of the Durban conference reminds me of the 'This is so complicated' and 'I don't feel safe' defences that liberal zionists like to make. I in no way condone any racist actions or speech. But people criticising Israel for the racist actions it has taken and is taking towards Palestinians is not the 'antisemitism of left'. Perhaps we would all understand a lot better if you actually did define what that is.
Yeah, I think it's great to enable my relatives in distant countries when they are stealing other people's land and committing human rights abuses. Just keep at it username!
The problem for you is that zionism (to paraphrase Edward Said) does not have the only claim to the land nor is it the superior claim. What Israel is doing in the OPT is only a part of the problem. And it's the same problem that has been happening since 1947/48. But keep compartmentalizing it - after all that is the only way you can live with yourself.
As an economist/historian, Ferguson should know the history of the term 'creative destruction'. The concept is implicit in Marx's writings about the workings of capitalism and was coined by Joseph Schumpeter:
Thus making war seem as essential or inevitable as economic change, as something desirable since it makes things better. In the same way that cars replaced the horse and buggy and stablehands and coachdrivers were replaced by assemblers and mechanics, war replaces the old with something new and better. Never mind the destruction and loss of life. That is a necessary cost and how gloriously we shall celebrate and remember their sacrifice, eh Niall? Because human life is something that is ok to destroy since Niall puts it on the same level as losing one's job due to technological progress.
So 1947/48 was about the moral and spiritual rebirth of Jews? Is that what ethnic cleansing and massacres is called in modern times?
I wouldn't consider Debka a decent source. They're basically a propaganda outfit. The problem is that they do occasionally hit on something. This might be one of those times - we'll have to wait and see.
Venezuela's crude is heavy and sour, whereas the most favored crude is light and sweet. A big chunk goes to the US Gulf Refineries which are designed to refine the heavy, sour crudes but Venezuela is diversifying away from the US in recent years into Europe and Asia. Venezuela sends almost as much oil to Caribbean countries (including Cuba) as to the US and does so under very favorable financial conditions and sometimes below cost - which also annoys the hell of of US oil companies. So the US is annoyed with Venezuela for both political/imperial and financial/commercial perspectives.
LOL. Thanks for reminding us of the bungled Khalid Meshal assassination in 1997. Netanyahu certainly lost that round.
"Therefore on the face of it, BDS is for the 2ss solution."
No. BDS is about human rights, not about states. There are supporters of both a one and 2 state solution in the BDS movement.
And more of our children will be sent to die fighting for what exactly? How is Iran a threat? Are they more threatening than the Soviet Union? Than missiles in Cuba? Than a nuclear-armed North Korea? Does anyone in the US foreign policy establishment have any sense of perspective?
I need to correct you on a few things about the 1980s:
Saudi Arabia kept desperately trying to buy US weapons and US weapons-makers kept desperately trying to sell to Saudi Arabia. Carter, Reagan and Bush all wanted to sell but several times the sales were stalled buy lobbying - most particularly AIPAC. (Please note that AIPAC was not always effective in stopping sales but by 1985 the late 1980s they had notable victories). The Saudis ended up buying lots of UK made weapons instead and Margaret Thatcher loved selling them to the Saudis. They also bought weapons from China, which enraged the US. (he deal was negotiated by Prince Bandar who apparently was extremely happy to spank the US administration for kowtowing to Congressional denial of the desired weapons). The Saudis didn't get unobstructed access to US weapons until they established their bona fides by fighting Saddam, letting US troops and materiel into KSA and establishing their zionist bona fides. The problem then was that after paying for the first Iraq war, the Saudis had much less money to buy weapons with in the 1990s. I think that in light of this, your thesis that the Israel lobbies were not implicated in denying sales to Saudi Arabia needs to be amended.
Oil markets don't operate like other markets (I would argue that no markets operate like they are 'supposed' to but I'll save you my monologue re: neoclassical economics) but OPEC and the oil-producing companies do not always have things their own way. Oil prices actually plummeted in the mid-1980s. I seem to remember that WTI hit about $13 bbl in 1986. This was of course prior to the Clinton years. (Not to mention that these are nominal prices here, the real price has actually been falling since the 1970s). So, even though I prefer materialist explanations, we need to recognise that sometimes there are factors out of the control of lobbies and those who think they make up the 'national interest'.
Otherwise, I really enjoyed your article.
This is just the natural outcome of militant ethnic nationalism. It's what you get from a state that is built on a foundation of exclusion of the 'wrong' people rather than a state for all its citizens and residents.
"The idea that evil is boring, good interesting seems very questionable to me."
I don't think Arendt meant 'banal' as in boring. I think she meant it as in ordinary rather than extraordinary. She was trying to get across the point that there was really nothing extraordinary or demonic or sadistic about the people who perpetrated these acts.
Or the other defence is that Israel is one of the most multicultural places in the world....with Jews from every corner of the world. Too bad if you're not a Jew!
Extreme bullshit. Go read anything written by Gen. Miko Peled, who was in the cabinet meetings and war rooms in Israel (or watch his talks on youtube) and you'll know that he fought hard to create a Palestinian state and noone listened to him or anyone else who argued that. It wasn't too much longer after that that settlers started moving into the Sinai and the OPT. The only reason Israel gave back the Sinai is the Egyptians nearly won in 1973. And they weren't going to give back the Golan because of (you guessed it) water and the strategic military advantages.
Look, I've provided you with links to back up my claims, including texts, graphs etc yet you deny that? Go to page 2 of the World Bank link and you will see a table that shows commodity prices in 201o falling towards 2007 levels. Gold is not the only commodity out there. There are all the energy prices (petroleum in all its qualities, gas, coal etc) and non-energy - food and agriculture, beverages, raw materials, metals and minerals, fertilizers etc. Probably just an important, MUV is rising slowly (this is the manufacturing unit value). You are not entitled to your own facts.
You also have no understanding of the relationship between the capital and current accounts and the flow of funds since you obviously don't understand the significance of the US being a net lender.
Too bad for you.
Shingo, you're wrong! Go look at the flow of funds data, which shows that the US has become a net lender (ie there is lots of capital, it's just not doing anything!).
link to federalreserve.gov
Go look at both real and nominal interest rates in the US and Europe - about as close as you can get to zero in a lot of countries and actual inflation rates as well. All really moderate.
Go look at the World Bank commodity price series which shows that commodity prices fell dramatically during the GFC, rose in the next few years and have fallen all through 2011 back to 2007 levels.
link to siteresources.worldbank.org
You're wrong on the facts.
Peace.
ie, the Chinese are actually not doing anything good for our economy right now because right now savings are bad in a liquidity trap. If they sell our dollars, it'll be expansionary policy for the US, we'll probably get some on-shoring of jobs, some much needed inflation that will get the economy going again.
Your comment makes very little sense and is not applicable to either the US data nor the Egyptian data on the monetary base and interest rates. What you don't seem to realize is that despite massive increases in the money supply and the fiscal stimulus we've had in the US, we don't have higher inflation because we are in a liquidity trap. In a liquidity trap, savings is actually a bad thing and we want people to not save and start spending, including the government to kick-start the stagnating economy. We don't want Chinese savings either. With the Chinese buying our bonds, it drives up the value of the dollar, reduces exports and leads to fewer jobs. That is bad. If the Chinese stop and go buy elsewhere, that's better for us. If you look at the most recent flow of fund release, you'll see that the US has become a net lender to the rest of the world which means we are now financing our debt domestically. (USG net borrowing has increased but the fall in private sector net borrowing has more than offset this). We're not importing inflation. We don't need the Chinese to keep interest rates down. And we don't have inflation.
By the way, governments are not trying to "inflate their currencies". The US has a policy of non-intervention in its exchange rate, choosing to target an inflation level and has undergone continual depreciation of its currency in the last 30 years. China keeps its exchange rate artificially low and the only reason that many currencies have appreciated is that they have done so against the dollar, which has fallen. And with interest falling in many countries in response to the GFC, I don't see many countries trying to "inflate their currencies".
Shingo, I was talking about the United States, where inflation has been at around 1.5% per year for the last few years despite huge increases in the monetary base. Austrian as well as monetarist economics failed. I disagree with you that Austrian economics works in either Egypt or the US. It plainly does not. In order to make the case for Austrian economics, you would have to show a correlation between the monetary base and inflation in the US and other economies that is clearly not in the data. I've already made the case for the US above, here is the case for Egypt:
You can see Egypt's inflation rate here:
link to indexmundi.com.html
It has gone up slightly in the last few years from a very low rate in the early part of this decade but it still below historical highs. Much of the reason for that were exogenous to the Egyptian economy - having to do with the tripling of wheat prices in 2007, the wheat drought in 2010 (when Russia banned wheat exports) which also raised prices, and the general rises in food, beverage and diesel prices generally in that period, particularly in 2009 when the GoE also lowered subsidies on several items. Look at the inflation table and you'll see the big jump in inflation in 2007 (and after even though the Egyptian interest rates were flat that year:
link to indexmundi.com.html
The impact of commodity prices on nominal GDP is not a dependable one so your 3rd paragraph does not hold.
I can't find a recent source of date for annual growth of the monetary base but this paper:
link to mof.gov.eg
shows large increases in the monetary base during the mid-2000's (up to 07/08) that did not too adversely effect inflation (p10) - in fact in that period Egypt had quite low inflation historically.
I don't agree. I think that Krugman has a good analysis on what went wrong in the GFC and some of his positions are spot on - like the size of the fiscal stimulus that was necessary early on to get us out of this. On this, many economists agree with him - including Stiglitz, Brad DeLong etc. Where I don't agree with Krugman is in the type of regulation we require for the financial sector. He thinks that we should just have stronger regulation without any changes to the size of banks, whereas I think that the size of banks (so that none are too big to fail) is an important element of that reform. Some googling will show you that other economists of a Keynesian bent also disagree with Krugman on this - e.g. Simon Johnson and James Kwak of Basaeline Scenario etc.
You're not understanding what you are reading. Krugman is correct when he says that in the Austrian school, inflation should rise as the monetary base increases but in the last few years that has not been the case in the US which has had moderate increases in inflation. (This is precisely because we are in a liquidity trap, where demand is deficient even at a zero interest rate.) It would be great if people would look at what actually happens in the economy and realize that both monetarism and austrian economics have been debunked by what we have seen since the onset of the GFC.
Actually too stupid to know that 'Allah' means God in Arabic and is used by Christians, Jews and Muslims to refer to God in the Arabic language.
We should probably send him/her to a mizrahi synagogue. 777 would probably freak to hear middle eastern quarter tones and chanting. "Out, out, damned spot!"
Your translation skills require immediate remedy.
The Mosaic faiths share the same god. Which is why Jewish theologians and philosophers were heavily influenced by their Islamic (and Christian) brethren writing in Arabic and Persian - the Brethren of Purity, al-Faradi, Avicenna, Averroes etc and Jewish philosophers and theologians wrote in Arabic and influenced Islam in turn.
Actually, the Israeli state built itself up from theft of the property and denial of rights of almost a million people, as well as a lot of help from other states. The fact that this does not even enter your consciousness shows just how much your sectarian viewpoint has killed your compassion as well as your sense of observation.
Said by the person who supports a state that stole the homes, lands, furniture, books, cars, livestock and lives of over 1 million people since 1948 and is continuing to do it to this day.
Don't you ever suffer from cognitive dissonance when you make these sorts of statements?
What Pappe describes as the Palestinian situation within the Green Line reminds me, in part, of the dhimmi status of Christians and Jews under Islamic rule. While that status was abolished over 150 years ago by the Ottoman empire, it's incredible that Israel saw fit to restore that status to the Palestinians who refused to be ethnically cleansed. I guess the zionists not only brought with them the worst of European racism and sectarianism but also revived a status that the Ottoman empire had abolished. Worst of both worlds, really.
Congrats Annie. Looking forward to your new role!
Not a typo:
link to defensenews.com
(And thanks for the kind words. You know the only thing that keeps me away is off-line life!)
Is there a lobby in the US for making money from Iran? I can't seem to find one. But if there was a powerful lobby like then I suppose they would fight it out and that is something we could observe. What I find scary is that it seems Russia and China are making money from Iran (I didn't want to bring imperialism into the materialist analysis but it is the Middle East!) and that the power play that you talking about is an international one. After all, the materialist analysis says that laws, institutions, norms etc arise from economic relations and each country. As for who wins, power is complex and relational. I don't think that historical materialism can make predictions about who wins between different sections of the capitalist class who have competing interests or different nations that have competing interests.
Furthermore, a materialist perspective does not reject the role of social institutions, customs, laws, religions, emotions etc. But a materialist perspective states that those things arise form modes of production such that the behavior of major economic actors reproduces the mode of production. So basically the lobbies - whether they are Oil, Pharma, Medical, Military-Industrial etc - arise from the desire to keep making money in a system where the riff-raff have a say through the ballot box. Major economic actors have an incentive to pay bunches of people to make sure that they keep making money.
That's not a fair representation of the materialist perspective, particularly historical materialism, which seeks to explain historical changes through the mode of production prevalent in society and that institutions and ideas prevalent in society come from that. That does not mean that everything that happens is determined economically/materially. And for the non-falsifiability issue, you can always try to falsify whether economic relations form the base of society or not.
Phil, we do foster an arms race. We do it by buying into Israeli/Saudi fears re Iran and thus giving US-taxpayer funded military aid to Israel (much of which ultimately gets back to US military industries) and sell lots more arms to Iran-hating Arabs - e.g. Saudi Arabia alone is buying $60 billion in arms from us. Israel thus gets to maintain its regional military hegemony and we get to have access to all that lovely black gold. I have a materialist view about lobbies as well - it's a good racket and a great way to make some money for those who aren't part of the MIC.
There also wasn't a lot of tolerance and plurality in 1948 when Israelis kicked out thousands of Palestinians, nor in the 18 years afterwards when Palestinians were forced to live under martial law. It takes a special kind of zionist blindness to see, in those seminal Israeli experiences, tolerance and plurality.
"Tahrir could not have happened without western media"
I wish that we could get away from this very erroneous idea. Tahrir happened because of years of hard work and activism and arrests and torture of dedicated groups of people, whose frustrations coalesced and were triggered by factors that we can recognise that did not include western media. There is nothing causal in this about western media or social networking sites. Bouazizi in Tunisia did not use western media to light himself on fire in protest. Western media did not cause the groundswell of protest against Arab regimes and elites. Western media did not help when leaders shut off mobile phones and the internet. Just as in other instances of revolts in the Arab world in previous decades and centuries were revolts against regimes, rulers and their imperialist supporters, western media was not a part of it. Let us please stop patting ourselves on the back for having any role in this. Let's not trivialize the Arab uprisings and try to get onto their bandwagon. Let's recognise that these are homegrown uprisings and that the best thing that we can do for the revolutionaries of the Arab world is to get our own leaders to change course, the very same leaders who are supporting Arab tyrants in the counter-revolution.
great job annie.
Americans now know what it's like to be a Palestinian, since they are getting a glimpse of how Palestinians are treated.
The Jerusalem Post is wrong that Israel is the only country that runs a program promoting its GLBT population. The Australian government, through its Tourism Australia website, has long promoted the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras. It's a huge event on the international GLBT calendar and attracts gay tourists from around the world.
But it's another example of how Israel like to pat itself on the back for being exceptional.
These kinds of arguments show me there's nothing 'liberal' about zionism. How can arguments about ethnic fears about demography be anything but racist?
Yes it's a linguistic category. Arabs come from the Arabian peninsula and conquered many non-Arab peoples who then became identified as Arabs due to sharing a common language.
Arab is a linguistic category, not an ethnic or nationalist one. Otherwise, how do you make sense of the fact that Jews living in the Arab world spoke Arabic?
As for your simplistic view about Arab Jews, you'll note that the process of Jews leaving the Arab countries was a long-drawn out one, a product of Jews heeding the call of Zion, Israeli operations to scare reluctant Jews into leaving as well as reprisals by Arab regimes against the Jewish population they conflated with Israel. Many of those who left did not go directly to Israel - in fact, Lebanon's Jewish population rose after 1948 and only declined in response to wars in the country.
In fact, the whole meme of Arab expulsion of Jews did not really move into hasbara until the 1970s when Ashkenazi Jews decided to appropriate Arab Jewish history in 1948, in the same way they had already tried to quash Arab Jewish social, cultural and historical memory prior to that date and replace Arab Jewish experience with Ashkenazi Jewish experience.
annie, I'm glad you posted this. Rafeef is a teacher, a poet/spoken word artist and the PACBI rep for US, Canada and Australia/NZ. She's incredibly talented, just like so many Palestinians in the movement.
In case you haven't been paying attention, Arab people are busy trying to de-fuck their regimes.
Because, apparently, America is the 'world'.
Agreed but it's not entirely her fault though, she's just the talking face of the deep layers of stupidity on this in the USG. She had an incredibly stupid policy to defend: the US is working like mad to drum up support against its own stated policy on Palestine, spat the dummy at the rest of the world when it lost and whined that it was going to take all its toys home. I think we all know what a psychologist would say about that type of behavior.
What you've shown is tokenism and the efforts of a few to make it in an unjust society. That existed even in the US under Jim Crow and you had some African-Americans who, through their merit and other reasons, managed to break through the systemic and institutional discrimination against them and achieve high office.
I'm not sure where Kevin and Julia's personal views are towards Palestine but I do know back in August prior to this heart surgery, Rudd advised Gillard to abstain from the Palestine statehood bid rather than vote no because he wanted to curry favor with Arab/Muslim nations in the next Australian bid for a seat on the Security Council. Gillard shut him down. Seems to me Rudd is willing to be far less of an ideologue than Gillard on this issue.
Thanks Hostage. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your contributions on Mondoweiss.
More than likely it's a moment of trying to find some space for enjoyment in the midst of the horror of the occupation. Unless you want to argue that the Jews who lived in the ghettoes didn't try to find at least some joy in their lives? Or that the ghettoes were not really horrific because every now and again they find moments to enjoy themselves?
Very shallow string of comments DBG.
Yet another attempt to keep the injustices done to Palestinians by Israelis closeted. Pushing Palestinians issues to the forefront of OWS would inform and educate people about Palestinians and their suffering, something that you are not eager to have happen.
Do the settlers have impunity from arrest when they beat up an Israeli Jew?
American, the momentum is just going to gather from here. There will be more and more of this.
You're wrong about quite a number of things. The OPT area occupied and thus cannot be compared to Mexico/US. Israel governs both the West Bank and Gaza. It controls the population registry, the borders, movement of people and goods, collects taxes for the OPT, rules the OPT by military law (that supersedes PA rule), kidnaps, detains and imprisons Palestinians, steals land from Palestinians in the OPT that it sanctions under its own laws, erases the 1967 armistice line in textbooks and on websites (like the Dept of Tourism website) etc.
Palestine has been erased and continues to be erased by settlements. Open your eyes to what Israel is doing to Palestinians and what it is doing to itself in the process. Just how much does Israel have to do before you'll protest Israeli govt actions?
Israel should feel vilified by the fact that it ethnically cleansed Palestinians. After, all, doing the actual ethnic cleansing is far worse than any of us pointing out the ethnic cleansing.
You mean you support the right of return of Palestinian refugees?
Thank you Sara Besbes. You are a hero. Inshallah soon sportsmen and women all over the world will follow your example. One of the wonderful consequences about the Arab Spring is that individual Arabs and groups are now free to express how they feel about the apartheid regime without fear of retribution from their own regimes.
Once again, many thanks.
This is merely a continuation of tactics used since 1947. The state always indicates disapproval but doesn't implement effective constraints against the terrorism.
Exactly. I noted elsewhere that this behavior has been happening since 1947. If the state didn't want this to happen it would stop the settlers but since the settlers are merely behaving consistently with the logical conclusion of zionist policy.....
Let me clarify again. I am aware of the rights that Palestinians have under international law and I am aware that inalienable rights cannot be renounced. But your responses have not really been germane to my objections, which is that Israel has the power to deny them their rights, and that Israel is determined to keep the current situation brewing until they do renounce their rights. They might be willing to pay a little money to compensate but that is not the same things as implementing their rights under international law. All the cases and the willingness to represent Palestinians that you cite, while admirable, makes little difference to millions of Palestinian refugees still stuck in camps. Many of those principles have existed for years and no amount of litigating around the edges had done anything for a people whose just claims have been denied for decades by Israel.
I don't think they were missed. Those principles where later qualified by being listed as up for negotiations, which I think is what you are missing.
You're right that they are no different from the final status issues under Oslo. That was my point - the PA wants an Oslo where they would have a bit more leverage to get Israeli acquiescence. Sorry if I made that unclear.
I also agree that there are UN organizations etc that are devoted to the implementation of inalienable rights. I have two points on that. The first is that I don't see any UN organisation or member country rushing to implement Res 194, even when they had a conference about it in 1952 in Lausanne. In fact, the world community turned a blind eye and the surprised Israelis were extremely pleased. The second is that if the Palestinians agree to sign away some of those rights, then who are any of these UN organisations to say anything. This is why Israel is in my view so keen for the whole 'Jewish state' recognition by Palestine - no right of return for Palestinians.
Simone,
It does mention UNGA 194 but then goes on to include that in the list of things that can be negotiated in the final status negotiations along with Jerusalem, water, border security, and settlements. Basically, it sounds like the PA just wants a stronger hand with which to negotiate. Given the spinelessness shown by the PA in previous negotiations, it's enough to make me fear about how much more of the farm the PA is willing to give away.
Hi Simone,
What I'd like to see is more connection between those doing the diplomatic running on this and the aspirations of the people they speak for and govern. I've said before I think that the statehood bid will fail so I'm not that worried about it. But what I am worried about is Palestinians being represented by leaders who don't have either electoral nor popular legitimacy and that this will continue into future events/negotiations. There has to be some connection between aspirations of Palestinians in refugee camps and under occupation to what their leadership is asking for. Otherwise we lose the connection between national and individual rights.
More than 30 years ago, the UNSC passed a resolution saying Israel should remove the settlers it had in the OPT. I guess the UNSC wanted the area to be judenrein as well instead of wanting Israel to not violate the Geneva Conventions by moving its citizens into occupied territory.
The way zionists argue is a massive fail. What you accuse the Arabs of wanting to do is what you have done to them. Look at how the zionists made Palestine arabrein in 1948. Look at how the zionists wiped out the state of Palestine and pushed Palestinians into the sea.
The world is catching on to the huge guilt trip zionists use to keep opinion about Israel within the acceptable spectrum.
lli you're a very bad researcher.
I just took 10 seconds to do a search on the Moshe Dayan quote from the NYT in 1997:
link to google.com.au
and the first link was this one:
link to nytimes.com
which substantiates that quote.
Try a little harder next time to make a sound argument rather than a stupid one.
I could be frivolous and say maybe they're insane to keep doing something that doesn't work?
But I think it has something more to do with the logic of their ideology as implemented in their institutions and structures - the state, the army etc. Israel is built on ethnic cleansing, expulsion and dispossession. In order to do that to another people you have to view them as in some way lesser than or less deserving than you. You must feel that you have some superiority in terms of political claims or rights. You set up your institutions in that way - to treat them as second-class citizens inside the Green Line, to criminalize those you occupy (otherwise how to explain the statistic that 750,000 Palestinians in the OPT have been incarcerated since 1967?). And once you have the system set up, it's self-reproducing and self-fulfilling. You teach your children, they grow up to serve in the army, some like it, some hate it and Break the Silence and most just blend back into civilian life with the blinders on and never really think about it (otherwise how to explain the refusal of J14 to consider the elephant in the room?). And so it goes.
The purpose is to humiliate, to beat down, to have Palestinians live their lives in fear. Because deep inside every zionist, they know what they did and what they are doing is wrong. And they have to take it out on the people whose very presence, whose very existence, reminds them of just how wrong they are.
soy, I agree with your concerns but I'd be more worried if I thought that Abbas had a chance of succeeding.
After the failure in the UN though, Palestinians will have two advantages - an official majority of the international community in support of their aspirations (and the isolation of the US, Israel, the bribed Pacific Islands and a few European states) and an official obituary of the two-state solution and the movement towards activism re: a rights-based approach.
One would also hope the that collaborators of the PA would do the honorable thing and fall on their swords (ie resign) but that might be too much to hope for. We need Palestinians in the West Bank to get moving on this and to get elections happening soon so we at least have a legitimate government there and greater accountability to the people.
Re: the West Bank and Gaza, they were only Egypt's and Jordan's between 1948 and 1967. Before that, the entire land from the Jordan to the see belonged to Palestinians, whether they were Jewish, Muslim or Christian. But I guess for zionists, history only begins in 1948.
Sorry Walid, did not see your post. Posted the same below.
The Jews in Lebanon were not kicked out. The Jewish population actually rose in Lebanon after 1948 with Jews who did not want to go to Israel. Most Lebanese Jews now live in Paris, Montreal and New York and they left in the decades after 1948. In most cases it was due to the same reasons that many other groups emigrated from Lebanon - unrest, war and wanting a better life for themselves and their families.
Before you continue with your talking points, you might want to check them out with Mizrahi Jews in Israel, many of whom do not identify as refugees since they were heeding the call of Zion.
Hmmm.
Jews ethnically cleansing and massacring Palestinians to fulfil their wish for self-determination - OK.
Palestinians seeking the removal of colonial settlers in accordance with international law and Geneva Conventions - NOT OK.
Thanks for the memo.
Personally, I think the settlers should be allowed to stay as permanent residents in Palestine. The problem is that under Palestinian law, they'd have to given back the land they'd stolen to build their settlements on (plus compensation for economic losses to original owners), they'd have to settle for their fair share rather than the overwhelming share of the land's resources (including water) and they would not get more than their fair share of the state's resources in support.
Not sure that the vast majority of the settlers will want to stay there under those conditions. Losing your ethnic privileges is tough. Far better to go back to Israel, suck off the teat of the wealthier Israeli state and bitch and moan about your removal for decades and how you were betrayed. Yeah, that's far easier than actually admitting that Palestinians have some rights that should be respected.
"Scripture doesn't lie"
Well, I would say that myths don't lie in that they tell us something about the psychological truth of the mythmakers. But if you are talking about ontology, you're on really shaky ground. Judaism, like Christianity, is based on the myths of earlier civilisations. Unless, of course, you wish to hold to a literal interpretation of the bible?
Poor 3ammo Bibi!
Thanks for the memories seafoid!
A7lan wa sa7lan bi simone. Daily Kos's loss is Mondoweiss's gain. Great to have you and Arab Sources here.
Thank you Joan Peters. Weren't you discredited some time back?
Most Palestinians, including Abuminah, supported a 2-state solution way back in the day when it was actually possible and there weren't half a million Israeli settlers there.
Little negotiation is required for a 2 state solution. We've known the contours of it for decades. It exists in international law. All Israel has to do is pull out over a certain period of time, in a phased manner. The problem is that the Israeli government has shown over the past 20 years (and longer) that it does not want to pull it, it wants the whole land, just not the people, in a continuation of the ideals of zionism going back a century. There's only 22% of the land left to Palestinians for their own state. When is Israel going to say that what they have taken from Palestine and Palestinian is enough?
Yes, they were terrorist crayons because they certainly struck terror into Jewish Federation in the East Bay.
Marx wrote in the 18th Brumaire:
"They cannot represent themselves, they must be represented".
Edward Said used the quote in his book Orientalism. You are not allowed to represent yourself in America, Rania, and if you do you will be accused of hating Jews. It's the way you get put in your place.
I'm glad you don't like being put in your place. Keep claiming your voice and speaking out. Be as loud and insistent as you want. And I support the motion to have you post 'above the line', it would be particularly interesting to have as many Palestinian voices as possible - this month in particular.
Wow DG wanna dial it back a bit? Where does relief at hearing a bit of sanity even in one whose views one generally abhors turn into supporting American innocence and exceptionalism and a 'more rational way' of killing? Yours is the stupid comment.
This being leaked strikes me as calculated. I think that there's an attempt to pile-on to Netanyahu on the part of his detractors here in the US while he's facing huge protests at home. Noone can complain about some pushing back against Bibi if there are half a million Israelis in the streets, right? It's plain that Obama and Netanyahu did not establish any kind of rapport and Hillary remembers well her own husband's relationship with Netanyahu in the 1990s. I'm sure they are relishing the opportunity to throw a little back at him.
As for whether this means anything good for Palestinians - I don't think so. It's same-old same-old when it comes to policy. Peace process, blah blah, negotiations, blah blah, only negotiations can lead to peace blah blah with no thought to justice. I don't think we should get too carried away because someone who used to be in the Obama Administration had a thought that sounded vaguely sane.
I think we all realize who the bad guys are. It's just that given the way the US has enabled Israel over the years, it's a relief to hear one of the inner circle, like a SecDef, realize how problematic this is even from a realist perspective. Of course, a progressive/left critique would go even further.
It's interesting that you try to make attempts to argue for Palestinians rights. I think, though, that your comments here and your attempts to trash this website and its users from a faux-pro-Palestinian perspective are remarkably transparent.
Hmm.
Everybody sucks. You must be getting desperate to use that as a tactic. It means you've acknowledged the suckiness of the side you prefer and now can only claim a pyrrhic victory.
Thanks Haytham
I know that section has something to to with 'my tongue shakes' and 'war' but yes, there was a lisping, repetitive thing I couldn't get. I'd love to know what it is.
Just one more note for the non-Arabic speakers, 'tob' or 'thob' is the Palestinian embroidered dress that Shadia is wearing and she points to it when she's singing so I wanted to make it clear it was about a specific piece of traditional clothing. Which is really beautiful and reminds me a little of the 'abaya' that was worn in Lebanon.
For you annie:
I didn't translate it 'street' or 'gangster' because Shadia uses everyday Arabic you would use with your family and friends and intersperses it with sentences, words that are standard Arabic that should be understood by all those taught to read and write Arabic. You can also see that the translator above got a few crucial things wrong - like in the last lines, where Shadia is comparing herself to the kuffiyeh. But I wouldn't say that this is a 'good' translation, it's just 'better' than the one above.
“Good morning cousins, welcome, you honor us,
What would you like us to offer you,, Arab blood or tears from our eyes? “
I think that’s how they expected us to welcome them,
That’s why they got embarrassed when they realized their mistake,
That’s why we wore the keffiyeh, the white and black,
And now these dogs are wearing it for fashion,
No matter how they redesign it, no matter how they change its colour,
the kuffiysh is Arab and will remain Arab.
Our kuffiyeh, they want it, our culture, they want it,
Our dignity they want it, Everything that’s ours, they want it.
We shut up for them, we allow(excuse) them, (1)
Why, why, it suits them, Stealing something that’s none of your business,
They imitate us, what we wear, all this land, enough of this (2), they’re greedy,
About Jerusalem, the Holy City, know how, be humane,
Before you ever wore a kuffiyeh, we’re here to remind you this is our keffiyeh, against the will of your damn fathers (3).
Chorus:
That’s why we wore the keffiyeh, because it’s patriotic, the kuffiyeh is Arab, That’s why we wore the kuffiyeh, it’s our essential identity, the kuffiyeh is Arab. Come on, raise the kuffiyeh, raise it up for me, the kuffiyeh is Arab
Raise it up Bilad as-Sham (Greater Syria or the Levant), the kuffiyeh is Arab and it will remain Arab.
There’s none yet like the Arab people, Show me another nation in the world more influential,
It’s clear, we are the cradle of civilisation, Our history and culture testify/bear witness to our existence,
That’s why I wore the Palestinian ‘tob’, From Haifa, Jenin, Jabar al-Nar to Ramallah,
Let me see the kuffiyeh, the white and red, Let me raise it up to the sky,
(next 3 lines unclear – Palestinian accent is confusing me)
Record! I am Shadia Mansour and this is my kuffiyeh (4)
From the day I was born, raising consciousness was my responsibility
Because I was raised between destruction, between evil, between religions between aliens (interlopers) (5) between the poor. I’ve seen life from both sides.
I’m like the kuffiyeh, Wherever you wear me, wherever you toss me away, I remain true to my origins, Palestinian.
Chorus
Notes:
(1) These lines are interesting because they are a play on words. They can mean 'We shut up for them, we allow them' but the she says them splits what is a single word in Arabic into two words which means Half the country, half the land. So I think she is trying to convey both meanings.
(2) The Arabic for 'Enough of this' is 'bikaffi al ghinnij', which means literally means 'that's enough spoiling of them'. In other words, we allowed them (the Israelis) to get away with too much, they're taken too much away from us.
(3) The Arabic is 'ghas min 3an abukun' which is tough to translate. I've translated it above but Haytham's translations are also acceptable.
(4) I've translated 'sajjal' as 'record' since that is the way that Darwish's poem is translated and, in Arabic, to listen and to record are two different words, which the translator above should have known!
(5) the Arabic dakheel means aliens or interlopers - she's referring to the invasion of the zionists of Palestine
I would say that his Arabic translation skills are not good. A decent translator at least has an understanding of the sense of how words are used in both languages, I fell like this translator looked them up in the dictionary without knowing the use of some of those words. A great translator has a sense of understanding of the culture and the allusions that are made - for example - sajjil, Ana Shadia Mansour - Record, I am Shadia Mansour - the link to Mahmoud Darwiche should be known by anyone with a basic understanding of the culture and should've been sensitive it how Darwiche's poem was translated. The translation of the rest of the song is slightly off as well - but then, let's face it, translating Arabic to English is tough. I'm stumped by translating something like 'ghas min 3an abuhun' - there's no adequate translation I can think of that would do justice to the defiance and connotations of that phrase and how ubiquitous it is in the spoken language! I'll try to find some time to do a bit of translating if anyone is interested but I must admit that sometimes the Palestinian accent (which I live) can be a bit confusing.
Exactly where my brain went when I heard that Haytham.
Thanks Seham! One of the reasons I signed up to Mondoweiss was to be able to say thank you to you for all your hard work with these daily news posts. So thank you.
More translations fixes for those who don't speak Arabic:
This line:
About Jerusalem, Jerusalem, would they be worried, how can you humans?
should be:
About Jerusalem, Jerusalem, know how, be humane (or show some humanity)
that's how I would translate: Itkoonu bashar.
And I loved the shout-out to Bilad as-Sham.
Good points Haytham,
I also don't like the translation of 3alli to throw up or throw it up. A better translation would be 'raise' the kuffiyeh, since throwing up is more closely connected to vomiting!
Thanks for the video Seham - keep them coming!
Then thing that gives me faith is the Palestinian people. I doubt they'll let the PA get away with giving away their rights. I think the protest marches in the next few weeks in the OPT will show that.
Thanks annie,
All this behind-the-scenes collaboration of the PA with Israel makes me a bit suspicious of the move by the PA re: UN application for statehood. I'm concerned that this is a bluff and that they will succumb to wording more acceptable to Israel that sends us back to the negotiations track, as recent media reports indicate and thus Palestinians must continue down a negotiations track that has brought them nothing but further delay and colonisation. I can't help being concerned that the same PA that would give Israel the 'biggest Yerushalim in history' would still be willing to sell its people out.
Thanks for bringing attention to the concerns of Mizrahi and Palestinian groups in Israeli society.
I've often noticed the blindness to Mizrahi concerns in my interactions with European and American Israelis and Jews. I would have thought that the emphasis on Jewish experience/identity/nationhood in Israel would have eradicated the sense of difference between eastern and western Jews but I think that it shows even within a common ethnoreligious affilation, race and class are still sources of stratification and that those in the dominant race/class (like anywhere else) don't 'see' others sections of society - they are objects rather than subjects. And if the Mizrahi are not subject then what are the Palestinians, who don't even belong to the same enthnoreligious group? They are not ascribed agency either and are patronized by those who wish to save/redeem them to preserve the self-image of the 'good Israeli'. The cognitive dissonance associated with the oppressor being the saviour does not seem to strike them.
Oh the irony. Israel got all this real estate free and clear (just for the price of a few massacres) 60 years ago and now it's getting too expensive for Israelis? They got it for a killing and it appears to me the new owners are making a killing.
I don't think that it's incumbent on you to make your dispossessors and occupiers happy and comfortable Ali. But I think it's what they expect, since they have the chutzpah to protest about the monetary cost of these apartments today rather than protest the cost of acquiring them - Palestinian blood and suffering.
I'm saddened and shocked at the treatment of your family in Europe and at what they had to endure over hundreds of years. But that just makes it harder for me to see how, as a human being so attuned to the suffering of your ancestors, you are fine with going along with the actions of your ancestors vis-a-vis Palestine. One would have thought that the experience of being kicked around like a football for generations would have made you not want to do this to anyone else.
You have the right to self-determination as a people - you just don't have the right to kick other people out of their homes and prevent them from coming back to exercise that self-determination.
Charon and kalithea - well said. That's part of the reason why I don't buy into many of the discussion about Jewish identity - while for some they are of real interest, they are merely an illusion that hides what the function of zionism is (and can be seen in the proclamations of earlier zionists*): the building of a European imperial fortress in the Middle East. The tie-in with Jewish suffering/yearning and, later, with Christian apocalyptic thinking is not the real game, it's the icing used to distract.
*Wasn't it Herzl who said something like Israel would be 'a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilisation against barbarism'?
I think it's called doublethink.
Israeli hasbara has never had logic as its strong point. It has always relied on the emotive pull rather than logic or consistency. Which is why they can argue that Palestinian violence is never justified and is always terrorism whereas Israeli violence is justified by fears concerning security. They rely on the loud insistence of their message and the credulousness of their audience. But I think we now have about 130 countries saying let the Palestinians have a state. All that hasbara has been singularly unsuccessful is one uses that as a measure.
The young people in Gaza are amazing. It's great to see them using every means available to get their message out. The earlier Palestinian intifadas influenced the protest movements in the Arab world for years. It's great to see the influence coming back to inspire a new generation of Palestinians. Thanks for posting to this video, annie.